On the verge of a revolution in space

222

Save this photo, it may well become historical

In the middle of the XNUMXth century, mankind was fascinated by space. Launch of the first satellite, Gagarin's flight, spacewalk, landing on the moon (let's make a reservation right away, the author considers the denial of the visit by the Americans to the Moon as one of the most severe forms of obscurantism, akin to the denial of HIV, vaccinations and other nonsense generated by supporters of the "flat earth") - it seemed a little more - and we will fly to the stars, especially since ambitious interplanetary spacecraft projects really existed. And as bases on the moon, flights to Mars - it was something that was taken for granted.


From a technical point of view, even in the 2001th century, humanity could well have realized most of what director Stanley Kubrick showed in his science fiction film "A Space Odyssey XNUMX"

But priorities have changed. The technologies of the last century, although they made it possible to implement all of the above, were extremely expensive. Expansion into space based on the technologies of the last century would require a reorientation of all economies of the leading countries of the world to solve this problem.



Intensive space exploration requires the solution of two basic tasks: the first is to ensure the possibility of launching massive bulky cargo into orbit, and the second is to reduce the cost of launching into orbit per one kilogram of payload (PN).

If mankind coped with the first task relatively well, then with the second - everything turned out to be much more complicated.

Long journey into space (and very expensive)


From the very beginning, launch vehicles (LV) were disposable. XNUMXth century technology did not allow the creation of a reusable launch vehicle. It seems incredible when hundreds of millions or billions of rubles / dollars burn up in the atmosphere or crash on the surface.

Let's imagine that the ships would be built only for one exit to the sea, and after that they would be immediately burned. In this case, would the era of great geographical discoveries come? Would the North American continent be colonized?

Hardly. Most likely, humanity would have lived as isolated centers of civilization.

The possibility of launching large and super-heavy cargoes into low reference orbit (LEO) was implemented in the American monstrous super-heavy launch vehicle Saturn-5. It was this rocket, capable of carrying 141 tons of PN to LEO, that allowed the United States to become the leaders in the space race at that time, delivering American astronauts to the moon.

On the verge of a revolution in space

LV "Saturn-5" made it possible to land a man on the moon

The Soviet Union lost the race for the moon because it could not create a super-heavy launch vehicle comparable to Saturn-5.

And the USSR could not create a super-heavy launch vehicle due to the lack of powerful rocket engines. Because of this, 1 NK-30 engines were installed at the first stage of the Soviet super-heavy five-stage LV N-33. Considering the absence of the possibility of computer diagnostics and synchronization of engine operation at that time, as well as the fact that, due to a lack of time and funding, ground dynamic and fire bench tests of the entire LV or the first stage assembly were not carried out, all test launches of the LV N-1 ended in failure at the stage of the first stage.


Launch vehicle N-1

An attempt to radically reduce the cost of launching a spacecraft into orbit was the American Space Shuttle program.

In the Space Shuttle's reusable transport spacecraft (MTKK), two out of three components were returned - solid-fuel boosters by parachute splashed down into the ocean and, after checking and refueling, could be reused, and the space plane - a shuttle, landed on the runway according to the airplane scheme. In the atmosphere, only a tank for liquid hydrogen and oxygen was burned, the fuel from which was used by the shuttle's engines.


Space Shuttle

The Space Shuttle system cannot be classified as a super-heavy launch vehicle - the maximum weight of the cargo it put into low reference orbit (LEO) was less than 30 tons, which is comparable to the payload performance of the Russian Proton launch vehicle.

The Soviet Union responded with the Energia-Buran program.

Despite the external similarity of the Space Shuttle and the Energia-Buran system, they had key differences. If in the Space Shuttle, the launch into orbit was carried out by two reusable solid-propellant boosters and the spacecraft itself, then in the Soviet project Buran was a passive load of the Energia launch vehicle. The Energia launch vehicle itself can rightfully be classified as a "superheavy" - it was capable of putting 100 tons into a low reference orbit, only 40 tons less than Saturn-5.


Energia-Buran

On the basis of the Energia launch vehicle, it was planned to create the Vulcan launch vehicle with an increased number of side blocks to 8 pieces, capable of delivering 175-200 tons of payload to LEO, which would make it possible to carry out flights to the Moon and Mars.

However, the most interesting development can be called the "Energy II" - "Hurricane" project, in which all elements were to be reusable, including the orbital spaceplane, the central block of the second stage and the side blocks of the first stage. The collapse of the USSR did not allow this, no doubt, an interesting project to be realized.

For all its epic character, both programs were curtailed: one - because of the collapse of the USSR, and the second - because of the high accident rate of "shuttles" that killed a dozen American astronauts. In addition, the Space Shuttle program did not meet expectations in terms of a radical reduction in the cost of launching a payload into orbit.

After the completion of the Energia-Buran program, mankind has no super-heavy launch vehicles left. Russia had no time for this, and the United States had significantly lost its space ambitions. To solve the current pressing tasks, the launch vehicles available to both countries were quite enough (except for the temporary lack of the United States' ability to independently launch astronauts into orbit).

The American aerospace agency NASA gradually carried out the design of a super-heavy launch vehicle to solve ambitious tasks: such as a flight to Mars or the construction of a base on the Moon. As part of the Constellation program, the Ares V super-heavy launch vehicle was developed. It was assumed that "Ares-5" will be able to bring 5 tons of payload to LEO, and deliver 188 tons of PN to the Moon.


Ares V

In 2010, the Constellation program was closed. The developments on "Ares-5" were used in a new program for creating a super-heavy LV - SLS (Space Launch System). The super-heavy SLS launch vehicle in the basic version is supposed to deliver 95 tons of payload to LEO, and in the version with increased payload - up to 130 tons of payload. The SLS LV design uses engines and solid-propellant boosters created as part of the Space Shuttle program.


Super heavy launch vehicle SLS

In fact, it will be some kind of modern reincarnation of "Saturn-5", similar to it both in characteristics and in cost. Despite the fact that the SLS program, most likely, will still be completed, it will not revolutionize either the American or world astronautics.

This is a deliberately dead-end project.

The same fate awaits the Russian project of the Yenisei / Don super-heavy launch vehicle, if it is built on the basis of “traditional” solutions used in space technology.


Concepts for a promising Russian super-heavy launch vehicle

In general, up to a certain point, the situation in the United States and in Russia was relatively similar: neither from NASA, nor from Roskosmos, we would hardly have seen any breakthrough solutions in terms of placing the payload into orbit. Nothing new was seen in other countries either. The space industry has become very conservative.

Private companies have changed everything, and it is quite natural that this happened in the United States, where the most comfortable conditions for business have been created.

Private space


Of course, first of all we are talking about the SpaceX company of Elon Musk. As soon as he was not called - a swindler, "successful manager", "Ostap Petrikovich Mask" and so on and so forth. The author has read on one of the resources a pseudo-scientific article about why the Falcon-9 launch vehicle will not fly: its body is not the same, too thin, and the engines are not the same, in general, there are a million reasons why "no". Such assessments, by the way, were expressed not only by independent analysts, but also by officials, heads of Russian state structures and enterprises.

Musk was accused of the fact that he himself did not develop anything (and he had to make all the design documentation himself, and then assemble the launch vehicle on his own?), And that SpaceX received a lot of information and materials on other projects from NASA (and SpaceX had to do everything from scratch, as if space programs did not exist in the United States before it?).

One way or another, but the Falcon-9 launch vehicle has taken place, it flies into space with an enviable regularity, the spent first stages land with the same regularity, one of which has already flown 10 (!) Times. Roscosmos has lost most of the market for launching payloads into orbit, and after the creation of SpaceX of the reusable manned spacecraft Crew Dragon (Dragon V2) and the market for delivering American astronauts to orbit.


Takeoff of the Falcon-9 LV, landing of its reusable first stage and the crewed reusable spacecraft Crew Dragon

But SpaceX also has a Falcon Heavy rocket capable of delivering over 63 tons to LEO. It is currently the heaviest and most payload launch vehicle in the world. Its first stage and side boosters are also reusable.


Takeoff of the Falcon Heavy LV and the synchronous landing of its lateral boosters

Another American billionaire, Jeff Bezos, breathes in the back of SpaceX's head. Of course, while its successes are much more modest, but there are still achievements. First of all, this is the creation of a new methane-oxygen engine BE-4, which will be used in the New Glenn launch vehicle and in the Vulcan launch vehicle (which is to replace the Atlas-5 launch vehicle). Considering that Atlas-5 now flies on Russian RD-180 engines, after the appearance of BE-4, Roscosmos will lose another sales market.

In the United States and in other countries, there are hundreds of start-ups to create launch vehicles and other types of aircraft for launching payloads into orbit, start-ups to create satellites and spacecraft for various purposes, industrial technologies for space, orbital tourism, and so on and so forth.

What will all this lead to?

To the fact that the space market will expand rapidly, and competition in the market for placing a payload into orbit will lead to a significant reduction in the cost of its removal from the calculation per kilogram.


The cost of the output of 1 kg of payload to LEO by the Space Shuttle system or the Delta-4 rocket is about $ 20. Russia's Proton launch vehicles are capable of delivering a payload to LEO at a cost of less than $ 000 per kilogram, but these missiles run on the highly toxic asymmetric dimethylhydrazine and are currently out of production. Cheap, developed in the USSR, Russian-Ukrainian Zenits are also a thing of the past.


Estimated cost of payload output by different launch vehicles (data may differ in different sources, but the order of prices remains the same)

The Falcon-9 launch vehicle, provided that the return first stage is used, can launch a payload into a low reference orbit at a cost of less than $ 2 per kilogram. According to Elon Musk, Falcon-000 can potentially reduce the cost of launching a payload to $ 9-500 per kilogram.

One might ask, why is it now so much more expensive for customers to take out the payload?

First, the cost is determined not only by the cost of launching, but also by market conditions - the prices of competitors. What capitalist would give up extra profit? It is profitable to be slightly lower than competitors, gradually capturing the market than to dumping, without earning anything, especially since in such a specific critical industry as the space launch market, controlling structures will in any case support several suppliers, even if one has prices several times higher than the competitor.

It can be assumed that SpaceX's prices will only be prompted by the emergence of competitors represented by Blue Origin with its New Glenn launch vehicle or other companies and countries that will create means for launching payloads with a low launch cost.

However, most of the start-ups and promising projects relate to the launch of a payload weighing hundreds, at most a thousand kilograms, into orbit. This will not revolutionize space - building something large will require heavy and super-heavy reusable launch vehicles with a low cost of launching a payload into orbit. And here, as we have seen above, everything is sad.

Everything, except for the most important project of SpaceX - a fully reusable Starship spacecraft with a fully reusable Super Heavy first stage.

Reusable super heavy


The difference between Starship (hereinafter referred to as Starship as a combination of Starship + Super Heavy) from all other launch vehicles is that both stages are reusable. At the same time, the Starship's payload to a low reference orbit should be 100 tons, that is, it is a full-fledged super-heavy rocket. For Starship, SpaceX has developed new, unique, closed-cycle Raptor methane-oxygen engines with full gasification of components.


Starship versus other super-heavy launch vehicles

SpaceX plans to replace all of its launch vehicles with the Starship, including the highly successful Falcon 9. Usually launching a super-heavy rocket is extremely expensive - on the order of one billion dollars. To keep the cost of launching low, SpaceX plans to use both stages many times - 100 launches each, and possibly more. In this case, the cost will drop by almost two orders of magnitude - up to ten million dollars per launch. Taking into account the maximum load of 100 tons, we will get the cost of bringing the payload to LEO at the level of about 100 (!) Dollars per kilogram.

Of course, the returned stages will require maintenance, engine replacements after 50 starts, refueling, ground services will need to be paid, but the Starship itself will most likely cost less than a billion dollars, and its production and maintenance technologies will be continuously improved as experience is gained. by SpaceX.


Installation of the prototype of the reusable first stage Super Heavy

In fact, Elon Musk states that Starship can potentially achieve a payload launch cost of about $ 10 per kilogram with a total launch cost of $ 1 million, and the cost of delivering cargo to the Moon will be about $ 1,5-20 per kilogram. but this requires the Starship to be launched weekly.

Where to get such volumes?

Even the military simply does not have such a large amount of payload, that there is already civil space - the development of the market will take decades.

Colonization of Mars?

It is hardly possible to talk about this seriously.

Colonization of the Moon?

Closer, Starship may well sink the SLS and send the Americans to the moon a second time. But these are dozens of launches, not hundreds or thousands.


Installation of the reusable Starship spacecraft on the first stage of the Super Heavy

However, SpaceX has a business plan far more real than sending colonists to Mars - using Starship to transport passengers intercontinentally. When flying from New York to Tokyo through Earth's orbit, the flight time will be about 90 minutes. At the same time, SpaceX plans to ensure operational reliability at the level of modern large airliners, and the cost of the flight - at the level of the cost of a transcontinental flight in business class.

Cargoes can be delivered in the same way. For example, the US military has already become interested in this opportunity. It is planned to deliver 80 tons of cargo in one flight, which is comparable to the capabilities of the C-17 Globemaster III transport aircraft.

In the aggregate: the transportation of passengers and cargo, the delivery of American astronauts to the moon, and possibly to more distant objects of the solar system, the withdrawal of commercial spacecraft, space tourism, and so on and so forth, and the like - SpaceX may well provide a reduction in the cost of withdrawing the payload, although would be up to the level of $ 100 per kilogram.

In this case, Starship will usher in a new era in space exploration and beyond.

Prospects and implications


Starship is viewed with some suspicion at the moment. It seems that everything is beautiful on paper, and SpaceX's experience speaks for itself, but somehow everything is too rosy?

Sometimes there is a feeling that the potential of this system just does not fit into the head of the leadership of the US armed forces, NASA management, owners and managers of enterprises in various industries. For too long, launching even a small payload into space meant multi-million dollar costs.

The question is, what happens when $ 100 per kilogram becomes reality?

When literate people in the US Department of Defense understand that it is faster and cheaper to throw a simulated tank into orbit than to transport it by a military transport plane aviation from the American continent to Europe, what conclusions will they come to?

No, we will not see the Abrams on the Moon, but the tank is not the target, it is just a way of delivering the projectile to the enemy. What if it's easier to get this projectile directly from orbit? How quickly will the United States withdraw from the Peaceful Outer Space Treaty if it gains a strategic advantage in it (in space)? How quickly will the US military begin to migrate into orbit?

Moreover, even the existing capabilities for placing payloads into orbit in the form of Falcon-9 and Falcon Heavy, combined with technologies for mass satellite construction, will be enough for LEO to be jammed with reconnaissance, command and communication satellites, leading to the fact that the United States will monitor the planet's surface 24/365. Forget about large surface forces, military groupings, mobile ground-based missile systems - all these will be just targets for weapons long range with flight trajectory correction.

The success of Starship will add a space strike echelon to this set, where the target will be hit from space within a few tens of minutes after receiving the request. No political leader in the world can feel confident knowing that at any moment an inevitable tungsten shower may fall from space.

At a price of $ 100 per kilogram, everyone who is not too lazy - pharmaceutical companies, metallurgical, mining companies - will climb into space. We'll talk more about space economics later. If possible, cheaply launching and removing cargo from orbit, space will become the new Klondike. What can we say about 10 dollars per kilogram ...

It is quite possible that right now we are witnessing a historical event that could become a turning point in the development of mankind.

Can this process stop?

Maybe the story is unpredictable. Human greed, stupidity or just an accident - a chain of failures, can bury any, the most successful undertakings. A couple of major accidents Starship with the death of hundreds of people are enough, and the process of space exploration can again be severely slowed down, as it was already in the XX century.

In the event of a unilateral advantage in space, the United States will begin to pursue a much more aggressive policy than it is now. In the absence of an opportunity to ensure parity in space, we may well slide down to the level of North Korea, sitting on a "nuclear suitcase" and threatening to undermine ourselves, neighbors and everyone else in case of anything (which, apparently, for strange reasons, even appeals to some).

In this regard, it is necessary to pay increased attention to the space industry, the state of which at the moment does not cause any optimism.

Take, for example, the project of the super-heavy launch vehicle "Yenisei" / "Don" - it is enough to look at all the mutually exclusive statements of various leaders and departments on this project, and it becomes clear that no one, in principle, knows why it is being created, nor what it is. should eventually become. If this is the next "Angara", then the project can be closed now - there is no point in spending people's money on it.

At the same time, China is not sitting idly by.

In addition to developing traditional launch vehicles, they are actively studying and adopting the American experience, not hesitating to directly copy. All is fair in matters of national security.

On National Space Day, the Chinese Rocket Research Institute spoke about the project of a suborbital rocket system, which should deliver passengers from one point of the planet to another in less than one hour.


China's suborbital transport system, doesn't it look like anything?


Presentation of China's suborbital transport system

We can say that so far these are only drawings, but China has recently repeatedly proved its ability to catch up with leaders in various branches of science and industry.

It is also time for Russia to put aside confusion and vacillation in the space industry, clearly formulate goals and ensure their implementation by any means.

If China and Russia can compete with the United States in space at a new technological level, then low orbits will be just the beginning, and humanity will indeed enter a new era, which so far exists only in the pages of science fiction novels.
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  1. +19
    14 August 2021 03: 58
    Yes, this reduction in payload output cost is impressive. Just orders of magnitude lower. If the launches are successful, it will turn the whole world upside down. And our space industry will be even deeper at the bottom. Thanks to the author for a good article.
    1. +13
      14 August 2021 04: 56
      our space industry will be even deeper at the bottom.


      The problem is not that at the bottom, but that we will not start to emerge in any way. There is no leader capable of setting the correct vector.

      How quickly will the US military begin to migrate into orbit?


      They have already started. It is not for nothing that the space command was allocated into a separate branch of the military.

      Musk is certainly great, but his terms need to be constantly increased by two at best. At 24 no one will fly to Mars, and neither will the moon. But he has already shown that he can do what was considered madness and fantasy. When everyone said that the landing of the steps was utter stupidity, he did not listen to anyone and did. Notice all the great inventions that influenced the development of civilization were considered unnecessary in their time. The president of IBM in the 60s once said that he did not know why an ordinary American family had their own computer at home. So it's a thankless task to predict. Spaceix may or may not be able to handle technological risks and change the course of history. Unfortunately, we can only sit back on the back of the sofa and watch as uninvolved spectators.
      1. -17
        14 August 2021 06: 27
        "The success of Starship will add a space strike echelon to this set, where the target will be hit from space within a few tens of minutes after receiving the request. No political leader in the world can feel confident knowing that at any second from space ..." - from the text. This[/ b] "novelty", belay flight of unbridled fantasy. lol Does the author know that there was such a technology in the USSR. This rocket is R-36orb NATO name "Scarp". This rocket launched a nuclear charge directly into space. And he flew almost indefinitely, terrifying our American "friends". [b] P-36 orb could attack a potential enemy at any time and from any direction! No missile defense system could cope with this complex. crying We even managed to equip an entire rocket regiment with this contraption. fellow How the Americans, with the help of what preferences, managed to persuade us to liquidate them through SALT-2 - it is beyond my comprehension! fool After all, the United States did not even have anything like it. Unfortunately, we cannot say the popular phrase: "if something happens, we can repeat it". request This complex was developed and produced at the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau (Ukraine), and it is not realistic to restore all this technology in today's degrading Russia. No. And very, very sorry ...
        1. +9
          14 August 2021 08: 39
          Quote: Proxima
          "The success of Starship will add a space strike echelon to this set, where the target will be hit from space within a few tens of minutes after receiving the request. No political leader in the world can feel confident knowing that at any second from space ..." - from the text. This[/ b] "novelty", belay flight of unbridled fantasy. lol Does the author know that there was such a technology in the USSR. This rocket is R-36orb NATO name "Scarp". This rocket launched a nuclear charge directly into space. And he flew almost indefinitely, terrifying our American "friends". [b] P-36 orb could attack a potential enemy at any time and from any direction! No missile defense system could cope with this complex. crying We even managed to equip an entire rocket regiment with this contraption. fellow How the Americans, with the help of what preferences, managed to persuade us to liquidate them through SALT-2 - it is beyond my comprehension! fool After all, the United States did not even have anything like it. Unfortunately, we cannot say the popular phrase: "if something happens, we can repeat it". request This complex was developed and produced at the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau (Ukraine), and it is not realistic to restore all this technology in today's degrading Russia. No. And very, very sorry ...


          Sarmat can potentially do the same. To do this, you just need a rocket with sufficient energy and an upgraded warhead with engines for deorbiting.

          They abandoned it because the United States would easily do the same thing, after which our and their warheads would hang in orbit with a short flight time and no one would know at what moment a nuclear war could start. As a result, it could start from the slightest "sneeze".
          1. -7
            14 August 2021 10: 18
            Quote: AVM
            They abandoned it because the United States would easily do the same thing, after which our and their warheads would hang in orbit with a short flight time and no one would know at what moment a nuclear war could start.

            How are you all just dear! Let's start with short- and medium-range missiles that the United States could safely deploy along the borders of the USSR - Western Europe, Norway, Turkey, Pakistan ... And what is the difference between a short-range missile and a similar ICBM? And the fact that she can do more fellow carry a nuclear filling due to the small amount of fuel... About the flight time, I generally keep quiet. We did not have the opportunity to deploy short- and medium-range missiles in Mexico or Canada. To place them, say, on missile submarines cruising along the coast of the United States is insanely expensive. So, R-36 orb "Scarp" nullified all this rocket logistics! negative Why did America agree to a treaty on the elimination of short- and medium-range missiles, have you ever wondered? - that's because of him, because of Scarpa.
            Quote: AVM
            Sarmat can potentially do the same

            This means that it cannot, if the United States seeks to annul the above agreements. It is not profitable for them now. No.
            1. +4
              14 August 2021 10: 33
              Quote: Proxima
              Quote: AVM
              They abandoned it because the United States would easily do the same thing, after which our and their warheads would hang in orbit with a short flight time and no one would know at what moment a nuclear war could start.

              How are you all just dear! Let's start with short- and medium-range missiles, which the United States could safely deploy along the borders of the USSR - Western Europe, Norway, Turkey, Pakistan ... And what is the difference between a short-range missile and a similar ICBM? And the fact that it can carry more nuclear filling due to the small amount of fuel. About the flight time, I generally keep quiet. We did not have the opportunity to deploy short- and medium-range missiles in Mexico or Canada. To place them, say, on missile submarines cruising along the coast of the United States is insanely expensive. So, the R-36 orb "Scarp" nullified all this rocket logistics! Why did America agree to a treaty on the elimination of short- and medium-range missiles, have you ever wondered? - that's because of him, because of Scarpa.
              Quote: AVM
              Sarmat can potentially do the same

              Hence, it cannot, if the United States seeks to annul the above agreements. It is not profitable for them now.


              I didn’t claim that the R-36orb wasn’t used as a bargaining chip in negotiations - it achieved its goal. Whether this was the reason for the withdrawal of the MRBM, or the fact that Europe also did not really want to be the target of our MRBMs, I do not know.

              It is much cheaper to deploy missiles on SSBNs near the coast of the United States than to make a comparable number of heavy R-36orbs, especially since they had only one warhead.

              And by the way, if I understand correctly, the range was unlimited within one loop. Because the system is partially orbital, i.e. the warhead could not hang out for a long time in orbit.
              1. +2
                15 August 2021 23: 25
                The author has read on one of the resources a pseudo-scientific article about why the Falcon-9 launch vehicle will not fly: its body is not the same, too thin, and the engines are not the same, in general, there are a million reasons why "no".
                It is likely that this resource was "Military Review", and the article - https://topwar.ru/95392-makaronnyy-monstr-ilona-maska-ili-zakonomernyy-itog-avantyury.html
          2. +1
            14 August 2021 11: 13
            Exactly. It's like sitting opposite each other at a table with revolvers pointed at the head. It's still a pleasure. Therefore, we agreed. In those days, there were more smart people in the states, in the USSR too, not like now, there, overseas, stoned and sick people rule.
          3. D16
            0
            14 August 2021 11: 15
            In order to reduce the speed of the BB below the first space one, it is necessary to spend fuel, which must first be accelerated above the first space lol , and in order to deliver the BB to the right place, you need to adjust its movement. Remember how they are still looking for cosmonauts in the taiga. So all these ideas with orbital bombers are nothing more than bullshit. Conventional ICBMs cope with this task many times cheaper and more accurately.
          4. +1
            14 August 2021 18: 35
            Quote: AVM
            They abandoned it because the United States would easily do the same thing, after which our and their warheads would hang in orbit with a short flight time and no one would know at what moment a nuclear war could start.

            By the way, Starship allows us to return to this idea on a new level. Do not suspend the warheads in advance, but prepare them for withdrawal in case of an exacerbation. The weight of a tactical warhead with guidance is about 100 kg, Starship can throw 100 tons, i.e. in a matter of minutes, about 1000 warheads can be launched into orbit. This opens up tremendous opportunities for all kinds of tactical and even strategic combinations.
            1. +1
              15 August 2021 10: 23
              The question here is how quickly this Starship can be prepared for launch.
              1. +1
                15 August 2021 19: 11
                If Starship is seriously going to be used for regular lines, there will always be ready to launch, and it will not be easy to notice that the payload was replaced at the last moment.
                1. +3
                  16 August 2021 10: 09
                  There, the oxidizing agent is liquid oxygen, it must be constantly refueled.
                  And in general, a spaceship is not an ICBM, I very much doubt that it can be quickly alerted.
                  1. +1
                    17 August 2021 00: 34
                    Quote: Maxim G
                    I very much doubt it can be quickly alerted.

                    Regular lines mean the next ship constantly ready for launch. If Musk emphasizes the promptness of delivery to any end of the world, then the quick refueling of the ship on duty does not bother him.
                    1. +1
                      17 August 2021 07: 55
                      We will see. The fact that Musk does not throw words to the wind, he has already proved.

                      It is sad that Russia can no longer build such a thing.
        2. D16
          +7
          14 August 2021 10: 59
          Inquire about the KVO of the only unit delivered by the R-36orb. And the cost of its delivery. Then you can understand why these missiles were decommissioned quickly and quietly. Achievement from the category "This was not, is not and is not necessary" lol ... This block cannot be in orbit indefinitely. A couple of turns maximum. No missile defense system with a massive launch of ICBMs is effective either then or now.
      2. +1
        14 August 2021 12: 29
        The vectors are true with the financing of the problem - for everything in the space industry, 176-200 billion rubles are allocated annually, more than modest amounts.
        1. +3
          14 August 2021 13: 29
          The vectors are true with the financing of the problem - for everything in the space industry, 176-200 billion rubles are allocated annually, more than modest amounts.


          Funding is also a problem. FKP was cut into shreds. But here they themselves are to blame, because they cannot do without wagging around. There is no long-term program, everything is done on the basis of the external agenda. Reusability was a divorce, and then they themselves decided to plant the steps. A rocketlab appeared, we remembered about Baikal. The Starlink mask immediately surfaced the Sphere. We started talking about the moon, and the spotlights on the station appeared. It's time to choose a roadmap and stick to it without such hesitation.
          1. 0
            14 August 2021 16: 37
            So they chose to make reusable first stages, the same Amur LNG RD 0169 to reduce the cost of missile production by introducing additive technologies and materials, and no matter how Angara is scolded in the future, the same can be done with reusable first stages, since the rocket design is modular, you can change modules to reusable ones. If everything goes smoothly with Cupid, then the Yenisei will do the same with the reusable first steps.
    2. +10
      14 August 2021 06: 50
      Quote: NOMADE
      Yes, this reduction in payload output cost is impressive.

      Is this even possible? Such a reduction in the cost of withdrawal per kg? These are not sailboats of the VGO times ... How much does the fuel cost? And how much is infrastructure. Maintaining it in working order. For what, the competition in passenger transportation is severe, and tickets still cost money ... But a passenger plane has been flying for tens of years and thousands of flights. And then the engines should be changed every 50 flights. Musk's accounting for space is opaque. Therefore, we take our word for it?
      1. +11
        14 August 2021 09: 05
        1) Fuel is now the cheapest oxygen + methane. Moreover, on all engines in the system. A side effect of cleanliness and thrift on the system, which allows you to expand the base resource 10-15 times from oxygen-kerosene. This is not only for Mask, but also for Rogozin (100 launches without a bulkhead of engines) and for the Chinese and Bezos.
        2) Infrastructure is expensive, but this is compensated for by the load. Well, this is a classic - for 10 flights a year you pay 10% of the maintenance cost from each flight, and for 1000 it is already 0,1%.
        3) Well, we'll see. Super-fast transfers are a trendy topic now. The Chinese picked her up. Personally, I do not believe that it will be until the 35s.

        In general, September-October will be key, when Starship will fly into orbit. I put on 2-3 a ship that will still complete the task (work with a stage and a ship, and then sit down without shmyak and bang).
        1. +2
          15 August 2021 10: 22
          Super-fast transfers are a trendy topic now. The Chinese picked her up. Personally, I do not believe that it will be until the 35s.


          Only if the transfer is carried out not for people - but for very urgent and operational cargoes that do not require a level of safety for manned flights. For example - delivery of rescue equipment to the crash site or units for repair, for donor organs and medicines. Another application is the launch into orbit of deserted orbital factories that produce expensive products in microgravity conditions ... Before the information age, there was the idea of ​​an intercontinental "rocket mail", but then the state of the art did not allow it to be realized.
      2. -11
        14 August 2021 10: 36
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        Musk's accounting for space is opaque. Therefore, we take our word for it?

        I also think that the author of the article is wishful thinking when he talks about using the carrier 100 times - I think that experts will laugh at him cruelly, taking into account the fact that the first flight of the new carrier for the Moon should be completed this year:
        The American program of exploration of the Moon "Artemis" consists of three stages: in the first stage, the Orion spacecraft must make an unmanned flight around the Moon and return to Earth (2021).

        When the Americans at least manage to do this, then it will be possible to talk about their plans in relation to other carriers.
        In general, the article is propaganda in nature, because the shuttle failure showed that reusable ships have too many problems to talk about their successful flights when the question concerns several dozen launches. This means that all the author's calculations of the cost of putting a kilogram of cargo into orbit are taken from the ceiling and cannot be taken seriously.
        1. +11
          14 August 2021 11: 08
          1) SLS is flying to the moon - the brainchild of ULA. And it’s not so good there. Probably the November launch will not take place. Even if it does, then nothing heavy will fly there for 2-3 years according to plan. It will be easy to fly, like such machines - for mass reconnaissance and preparation of Artemis + Gateway.




          2) The shuttle failed so much that it brought more people into space than all other systems in the entire world. And also it is the failed Shuttle that we owe to Hubble, Chandra, Magellan (the most detailed study and mapping of Venus).


          It was also thanks to the Shuttles that the ISS was assembled quickly and in such a volume.

          3) The problem of the Shuttle in technology. When the Shuttle was made there were military contracts for heavy satellites + scientific programs. When the Shuttle was made, the satellites lost 3-5 times and the military chose other carriers. The shuttle actually began to fight for life and budget funding even before the first disaster (in fact, the Teacher in Space is just a mission of the type - to return the attention of taxpayers to the Shuttle). The final pension is not because of the second disaster, but because of the absence of any tasks against the background of an unprecedented warming with the Russian Federation. That is, the ISS was completed. There is nothing more voluminous with the need for EVA / manual operations for starting. Russians can also carry people.
          1. -5
            14 August 2021 11: 54
            There is different information about the cost of launching the Mask. For example such:
            https://hodor.lol/post/221746/
            It's nowhere near as pretty as described above.
            1. +5
              14 August 2021 12: 12
              Quote: Mountain Shooter
              There is different information about the cost of launching the Mask. For example such:
              https://hodor.lol/post/221746/
              It's nowhere near as pretty as described above.


              NASA contracts require additional certification, insurance, etc. The same goes for the military. And if people are being driven, it is still stricter. Therefore, the cost of launching 1 kg of commercial satellites, 1 kg for NASA, 1 kg for the US Department of Defense, and 1 kg of an astronaut's carcass cannot be compared.
            2. -5
              14 August 2021 13: 59
              https://www.nasa.gov/leo-economy/commercial-use/pricing-policy вот источник , эти цены для коммерсантов . Начните с этого абзаца "Since the release of the initial pricing policy in June 2019..."и вам станет всё ясно . Вы же не будете возмущаться за бывшую монополию РФ по доставке космонавтов на МКС и за взвинченные цены ? . Спрос опережает предложение . А при таком порядке цен , в нашей стране по этим ценам любой полковник МВД или чинуша средней руки прокатится на МКС может .
              Quote: ccsr
              When the Americans at least manage to do this, then it will be possible to talk about their plans in relation to other carriers.
              In general, the article is propaganda in nature, because the shuttle failure showed that reusable ships have too many problems to talk about their successful flights when the question concerns several dozen launches. This means that all the author's calculations of the cost of putting a kilogram of cargo into orbit are taken from the ceiling and cannot be taken seriously.

              And you don't want to talk about the delivery of astronauts to the ISS? And reusable steps reeled in a dozen flights is also no longer interesting to say for sure? Have you decided to talk about the Moon now? ... When the Americans make a base without us, it will no longer be necessary to speak, but to envy. The dearest score is on the scoreboard, and we have learned to talk this better than in the USSR.
              But in general, Ilon is great. It distributes such sonorous bream to imposing bureaucrats from outer space, with all that. Boeing alone is worth something, boasting about its history in space exploration, now running around the courts complaining, taking into account that they have something wrong again. And you can't jump off now on inflated cabbage soup "this is space, you don't understand anything, give me more money and time." Well, with our "golden voice" everything is clear, they are unlikely to even build an office for themselves without embezzlement. "Passing Ostap, Shura whispered sadly: - What is this? I am mechanically." ©
          2. -8
            14 August 2021 17: 45
            Quote: donavi49
            1) SLS is flying to the moon - the brainchild of ULA. And it’s not so good there. Probably the November launch will not take place.

            You probably did not study the text of the article in which the author indicated that this is a dead-end branch - here are his words for you:
            As part of the Constellation program, the Ares V super-heavy launch vehicle was developed. It was assumed that "Ares-5" will be able to bring 5 tons of payload to LEO, and deliver 188 tons of PN to the Moon.In 2010, the Constellation program was closed. The developments on "Ares-5" were used in a new program for creating a super-heavy LV - SLS (Space Launch System). The super-heavy SLS launch vehicle in the basic version should be capable of delivering 95 tons of payload to LEO, and in the version with an increased payload - up to 130 tons of payload. The SLS LV design uses engines and solid-propellant boosters created as part of the Space Shuttle program..In essence, it will be a kind of modern reincarnation of "Saturn-5", similar to it both in characteristics and in cost. Despite the fact that the SLS program will most likely still be completed, it will not revolutionize either the American or world astronautics. This is a deliberately dead-end project.

            Those. Ares, praised by your predecessors, quietly died, and the SLS, which you are promoting, has not yet flown, and according to the author, it is no better than Saturn -5. So what is the progress of Americans in 60 years - can you popularly explain?

            Quote: donavi49
            2) The shuttle failed so much that it brought more people into space than all other systems in the entire world.

            This is a common propaganda tale, given that two ships and their crews are lost and the program hastily closed. If everything was so fine with the Americans, they would never fly on our ships for many years.

            Quote: donavi49
            It was also thanks to the Shuttles that the ISS was assembled quickly and in such a volume.

            And whose flights have served the station for so many years after the "successful" shuttle was closed? We have docked Nauka without shuttles, so we could safely assemble the entire ISS even without them. But the question was about money, and then we did not have it, and you "do not notice" this.
            Quote: donavi49
            3) The problem of the Shuttle in technology. When the Shuttle was made, there were military contracts for heavy satellites + scientific programs.

            Another cheap fairy tale, if only because if everything were so successful, the shuttles would still fly. And the fact that the Americans cannot revive engines for Saturn-5 from the point of view of scientific and technological progress in general looks like the degradation of the engineering school.
            Quote: donavi49
            (Actually, the Teacher in Space is just a mission of the type - to return the attention of taxpayers to the Shuttle).

            This is clearly far-fetched - taxpayers generally do not play a role in such matters, and if the shuttle program were successful, it would not be closed at all, but would be engaged in modernization and elimination of shortcomings, in particular, the reliability of fastening the tiles.
            Quote: donavi49
            Russians can also carry people.

            Of course the Russians can, unlike the Americans, who for many years have not been able to create an acceptable host. So what is their breakthrough, apart from the beautiful pictures and promises of Musk? So far I see that by the end of the year no flight of the new lunar carrier will take place. Can you say otherwise, or do you know in advance that the November flight will not take place? How cleverly you moved away from the next disruption of the schedule of the "Artemis" program, and you do not dare to even name the date of the flight. Why would it be, if you believe so much in American achievements?
        2. -1
          15 August 2021 14: 59
          Quote: ccsr
          ... When at least the Americans manage to do this, then it will be possible to talk about their plans for other carriers ...


          Something reminds me of it ...
      3. +6
        14 August 2021 13: 16
        And what about sailboats? Which were often quite disposable. Let's remember that out of 5 ships of Magellan, one returned with a minuscule crew, but the voyage was considered to be archived profitable! Maybe it makes sense to think about the drastic reduction in the cost of disposable missiles, and not tinker with reusable monsters? Moreover, as long as they fly with the same chemistry, the benefit from reusability is generally not at all obvious. Musk's financial results are murky and closed, who knows - how much does post-flight preparation for new launches actually cost him?

        But for all this - humanity must answer the main question - to feijoa for him in general the Cosmos? And what is it ready to go to for its development?
        1. +2
          16 August 2021 13: 21
          In theory, for space exploration (colonization of other planets, and better than other planetary systems), humanity should make any sacrifices. After all, the idea of ​​"ecology" is stillborn. Only those civilizations will survive that have time to establish new colonies on the resources available so far, from which, in turn, to establish new ones, and so on ad infinitum (the universe laughing ). Otherwise, it will turn out that some uncle will fly to Earth, look at what an environmentally friendly planet, he will go to me, and burn these nasty people with napalm! laughing
          1. 0
            April 17 2022 20: 27
            I absolutely agree with the idea that the civilization that will be the first to occupy a new resource niche in space will survive and rise. But here is the idea of ​​\u7b\u9bdirecting cheap disposable rockets, extremely sporty. It is not bad, but rather controversial, even rather debatable. We have examples of rockets that are very cheap but disposable. This, for example, is the entire family of R-XNUMX missiles. Very simple, reliable and inexpensive. Even taking into account the fact that the launch price was inflated until the Americans could get their own manned launch vehicle after the shuttles, it still made the alliances quite profitable. But the Falcon XNUMX in a reusable configuration is +/- cheaper. So I have the nth cost of the rocket + fuel + maintenance, we stretch this amount over several launches. Improving the launch vehicle will further reduce the cost of launching the payload and further increase the reliability during reusable use.
            And here is the problem - to create a one-time launch vehicle, which will be cheaper than a reusable one. We will need to use, well, super cheap design solutions. Up to the point of using very cheap materials and designs. There was one such project - Sea Dragon. The largest designed RN. It's a huge, two-stage rocket. Cheapness was achieved in several ways:
            1 - size. The rocket was 150 m high and 23 m in diameter. At a time, it could launch 500 tons of cargo to LEO. With an estimated price output from $50 to $600 per kg.
            2 - primitive design. The hull was made at shipyards using marine steel. Therefore, it was not necessary to create a separate infrastructure, but everything was produced in ordinary shipyards, of a suitable size. The pressure in the combustion chamber of the engines was injected using helium cylinders. The efficiency of the engine was low, at a pressure of only 7-10 atmospheres. But due to the size and simplicity, the engines "inefficiently" gave out power capable of lifting a rocket with a load.
            3 - infrastructure. In addition to the building infrastructure (shipyard), there was also a significant price reduction at launch. Due to the lack of a special starting table. The rocket was towed into the sea, refueled there. And right out of the water, she takes off into the sky.
            And maybe in such a performance, the concept of a simple one-time launch vehicle makes sense to exist. But because of the primitiveness of the design, there are risks that if you try to build it, it will be extremely unreliable. And attempts to make it safe will lead to a rise in the price of the rocket and a significant drop in profitability.
            Although honestly, I would also like to see such a launch vehicle in action, but so far no one has been engaged in such a direction.
        2. -1
          16 August 2021 14: 45
          Maybe it makes sense to think about the drastic reduction in the cost of disposable missiles, and not tinker with reusable monsters? Moreover, while they fly all the same chemistry, the benefit from reusability is generally not at all obvious.

          To antigravity (if it is possible at all) we are still very and very far away.
          And the benefit of reusability is in multiple times of engine use. Which accounts for a significant portion of the stage cost for a launch vehicle.
      4. 0
        15 August 2021 09: 14
        Well, in terms of fuel, everything is generally easy. The same Falcon-9 all fuel and other consumables are only 0.2 million per launch at a launch price of 50 million. There are many places to go.
        And methane is a cheaper fuel than kyrosin
    3. -7
      14 August 2021 12: 37
      Yes, this reduction in payload output cost is impressive.

      It's all in words.)))
      1. 0
        15 August 2021 10: 31
        Yes, this reduction in payload output cost is impressive.
        It's all in words.)))
        Take a gentleman's word wassat Well, you understand ...
    4. 0
      14 August 2021 13: 22
      "And our space industry will be even deeper at the bottom" - it has already broken through the bottom.
    5. 0
      19 August 2021 08: 37
      There will be no commercial suborbital rocket flights. Not in this technological age, anyway. What are 10 bucks per kg? Do not listen to fantasies, this is nothing more than wishlist very far from reality. Who will fly them, in your opinion? Billionaires? The very first rocket that crashed with such passengers will put an end to such an undertaking. I am already silent about the overloads that passengers will experience and the fact that, in fact, not everyone will be able to normally endure such a trip. It is IMPOSSIBLE to make such flights on a massive scale, and also safe. Add to this the need to build launch and landing sites for these pepelats, maintain the whole thing, the need for a thorough revision of the vehicles after EACH flight, multiply this by man-hours and you will understand that they will not be cheap a priori. Not in this century. If speed is really needed for commercial transportation, it is cheaper and more expedient to return to supersonic airliner programs than to fence all this, but apparently, it is not so necessary if you have not returned. Musk is a dreamer. Such people are needed in any era, but let's be realistic.
      1. 0
        29 October 2021 14: 32
        Will not deliver. In the 70s, there were a lot of accidents of wide-bodied aircraft with a bunch of victims. Especially the disaster in the Canaries (two 747s collided while taxiing, 580 victims). They drew conclusions, no one put any crosses.
    6. 0
      29 September 2021 08: 23
      "Yes, this reduction in payload output cost is impressive."
      -Just Wishlist. no reason.
  2. +5
    14 August 2021 04: 07
    In the absence of an opportunity to ensure parity in space, we may well slide down to the level of North Korea, sitting on a "nuclear suitcase" and threatening to undermine ourselves, our neighbors and everyone else.
    Quite an interesting comparison ... But hopefully time will tell! Despite some openness, we can have, on many issues, "a pig in a poke".
    1. +1
      14 August 2021 05: 04
      Quote: Vladimir61
      Despite some openness, we can have, on many issues, "a pig in a poke".

      I don’t know what about the “pig in a poke”, but the top management has a “dusty bag”. They hit them on the head with "specialists" appointed in various branches of industry and capitalist economy. lol
      1. +4
        14 August 2021 05: 30
        I know what about the "pig in a poke", but the top management has a "dusty bag". They hit them on the head with "specialists" appointed in various branches of industry and capitalist economy.


        I think I was referring to the Zeus project. As soon as it flies and immediately to Venus, Ross station, and they also want to use it for air defense purposes. The nuclear tug will also be carried off to the Moon with Mars. Maybe...
        1. +4
          14 August 2021 12: 36
          On plasma and ion engines, this tug to Mars will fly for several years for space exploration, high speeds are needed, alas, these engines cannot give them.
          1. 0
            15 August 2021 14: 49
            Quote: Vadim237
            On plasma and ion engines, this tug to Mars will fly for several years for space exploration, high speeds are needed, alas, these engines cannot give them.


            It seems like they are developing more powerful ones. In my opinion, there are problems with degradation at high capacities.
  3. +5
    14 August 2021 04: 46
    Interesting reading material with pictures! good
    Immediately, dreams arose of an international space station on the moon, as an intermediate base for observing space and providing flights (at least) within the solar system ... fellow
    If China and Russia can compete with the United States in space at a new technological level, then low orbits will be just the beginning, and humanity will indeed enter a new era, which so far exists only in the pages of science fiction novels.

    If Russia ceases to denote the development of space programs, they will stop thinking about the millions of incomes of managers who are keen on this business and, as specialists who do not think about ways to spend them, if the management begins to engage in the assigned business, and not attach their relatives to government positions and come up with a business for their halves, then PROBABLY, POSSIBLY EVERYTHING ... Yes
    1. +5
      14 August 2021 04: 59
      Immediately, dreams arose of an international space station on the moon as an intermediate base for observing space and providing flights (at least) within the solar system.


      Which is what nasa is going to do. DSG project. The modules have already begun to be built. Part of the Artemis program.
    2. +4
      14 August 2021 05: 28
      Yes, you even buy up the whole Musk team there and put nothing in positions here. The state, by definition, simply cannot compete with the private sector. The state does not know how to take risks. Clamped by frames. They need the here and now. Space is a new gold rush in essence. There, the state machine will stall literally at every step. Therefore, NASA from what this moved away from giving into the hands of the Mask and others. And Musk will beat off all his investments on one advertisement. I speak very figuratively, but I think the essence is clear.
      1. -8
        14 August 2021 08: 23
        э
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Yes, you even buy up the whole Musk team there and put nothing in positions here. The state, by definition, simply cannot compete with the private sector.

        That's for sure, everything. will be plundered. Thievery and a mess and it is no longer clear what is primary. Yakutia is burning, helicopter planes are falling, with a frightening frequency ...
        1. +2
          14 August 2021 08: 32
          This is also the reason. They will not steal from themselves. And state money is only on the way. Finish with Yakutia. A lot of people and technology work there initially. Only there is little sense from this. A month and a half heat over 30 there is an anomaly. And plane crashes happen all over the world. Not much less often than ours.
          1. +1
            14 August 2021 13: 20
            They will not steal from themselves.

            Personally at home - of course they will not. And what about shareholders and investors? what
            1. -2
              14 August 2021 13: 46
              This happens. But it always ends very badly.
              1. +1
                14 August 2021 13: 51
                For whom? Avon is the same American shale project, everyone is in debt like silk, the offices live exclusively on borrowed money, but the project is actively continuing !! Means - someone important still has from this his sickly gesheft. And Tesla Mask? She has been in dire cons for ten years, having shown at least some profit only last year! But - does it exist to this day? How can this be within the framework of classical capitalism? Where does the money come from? The stump is clear - someone steals in one way or another .. And there are such examples - darkness.
                1. -1
                  14 August 2021 14: 14
                  You are confusing theft and loss) and personal and company accounts. As for the latest examples, the state keeps them there. Anyone's bankruptcy will hit the entire economy hard. As for personal funds, investing them in your company is quite a rare occurrence.
                2. 0
                  15 August 2021 09: 18
                  Sells cars, batteries and solar panels, refills and maintains cars with this money and has
      2. +3
        14 August 2021 09: 59
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Yes, you even buy up the whole Musk team there and put nothing in positions here. The state, by definition, simply cannot compete with the private sector. The state does not know how to take risks. Clamped by frames. They need the here and now. Space is a new gold rush in essence. There, the state machine will stall literally at every step. Therefore, NASA from what this moved away from giving into the hands of the Mask and others. And Musk will beat off all his investments on one advertisement. I speak very figuratively, but I think the essence is clear.

        Musk is a dreamer. The state system does not like this. Not in the USA, not in Israel, not in your country.
        1. -18
          14 August 2021 10: 50
          Quote: Aron Zaavi
          Musk is a dreamer.

          Like Ostap Bender ...
          1. +13
            14 August 2021 10: 52
            Quote: ccsr
            Quote: Aron Zaavi
            Musk is a dreamer.

            Like Ostap Bender ...

            Silly comparison (IMHO)
  4. -10
    14 August 2021 05: 07
    The question is, what happens when $ 100 per kilogram becomes reality?

    Apparently, the laws of physics will be canceled and the author's delirium will become a reality.
    1. 0
      14 August 2021 10: 17
      Quote: Hwostatij
      Apparently, the laws of physics will be canceled and the author's delirium will become a reality.

      For the "laws of physics" you better go here:
      https://topwar.ru/95392-makaronnyy-monstr-ilona-maska-ili-zakonomernyy-itog-avantyury.html
      In that article, everything is already painted, and you will find the author himself, you read a lot of such opuses. Just your level, do not torture yourself with reading adequate articles, they make you think.

      In the current article, everything is painted correctly, restrained and orderly. For what + to the author.

      PS And I advise everyone to read the article about the "pasta monster", especially the comments are very funny. And its author continues to delight with pseudoscientific nonsense to this day.
      1. -10
        14 August 2021 11: 03
        Dear, I see that you have a very high opinion of your intelligence and erudition. Explain, in this case, how, given the efficiency of chemical rockets, the launch price can be lower than the cost of the fuel consumed with an oxidizer. I'm not even talking about the cost of the PH and other little things. And good luck reading these fascinating articles.
        1. +5
          14 August 2021 12: 16
          Quote: Hwostatij
          Dear, I see that you have a very high opinion of your intelligence and erudition. Explain, in this case, how, given the efficiency of chemical rockets, the launch price can be lower than the cost of the fuel consumed with an oxidizer. I'm not even talking about the cost of the PH and other little things. And good luck reading these fascinating articles.


          Somewhere in the comments I already figured out:

          Full refueling Superhevy + Starship is 4500 tons of fuel. About 2/3 methane, 1/3 oxygen. Those. 3000 tons of methane and 1500 tons of oxygen. One ton of liquefied oxygen in Moscow costs 9000 rubles. (in bulk, two times less, and if you produce it yourself, then three times).

          Methane is sold in cubic meters. 3000 tons of methane according to the gas calculator https://predklapan.ru/kalkulyator_gaza is 4470000 cubic meters. For 1000 cubic meters, the price jumps on the exchange $ 300-450.
          Thus:
          oxygen RUB 13500000 or at the rate of 75 rubles / $ it will be $ 180 (kopecks).
          Methane is more expensive, depending on the exchange 1 or 341

          The total is approximately $ 2. Musk himself seems to be talking about 000 million for fuel and 000 million for the cost of launching missiles with infrastructure and maintenance.

          When loaded in 100 tons, you get $ 30 per 1 kg. Something like this.
          1. -5
            14 August 2021 21: 21
            Yes, really inexpensive, I was wrong, I admit. Moreover, the oxidizer is not 1/3, but 78%. But still, until the device takes off and there is no reliable financial information on the launch, all speculation about the cost of delivering cargo to orbit is closer to fiction. I will not wish the mask good luck, because IHMO is just a charlatan, but good luck to humanity on the way to the stars.
  5. -2
    14 August 2021 05: 33
    The bases dangling in orbit are also not very good. You can also run a lot of "useful" to them. And not even directly, bypassing the pro. It is enough to put a conventional bucket of bolts into the same orbit, which will release all the air from the base. Besides, "tungsten rods" are very, very expensive. This is a rare and expensive material. You definitely can't get enough of the rods ...
    In the event that the United States withdraws from the treaty on outer space, it is possible to declare heights of up to thousands of kilometers above the Russian Federation, its territory, with all that it implies.
    1. +5
      14 August 2021 10: 01
      Quote: Cottodraton
      The bases dangling in orbit are also not very good. You can also run a lot of "useful" to them. And not even directly, bypassing the pro. It is enough to put a conventional bucket of bolts into the same orbit, which will release all the air from the base.


      A conventional bucket of bolts will not help here. Complex and high-tech solutions will be required. I considered the problem of dealing with objects in space:

      Knockin 'on heaven - https://topwar.ru/178994-dostuchatsja-do-nebes.html
      Orbital cleaners - https://topwar.ru/179365-orbitalnye-chistilschiki.html

      Actually, the cheapness of launch plays a role here - whoever can put more and more cheaply into orbit has an advantage - "God is always on the side of large battalions."

      Quote: Cottodraton
      Besides, "tungsten rods" are very, very expensive. This is a rare and expensive material. You definitely can't get enough of the rods ...


      I don't think this is critical, it could be steel with additives, or a steel pipe with lead inside to increase kinetic energy, or something else.

      Quote: Cottodraton
      In the event that the United States withdraws from the treaty on outer space, it is possible to declare heights of up to thousands of kilometers above the Russian Federation, its territory, with all that it implies.


      And what if they ignore it? Shoot down? Then they will answer.

      They negotiate only with equals, and ignore the weak or tell them what to do. This is why we need comparable capabilities in space.
      1. -2
        14 August 2021 19: 12
        A bucket of bolts will help the best. It is worth launching them on the trajectory of the station. There, no mega technologies are needed, just calculations on a computer, no more complicated than in the MCC Roscosmos.
        Such bolts fly at monstrous speeds and have the appropriate energy.
        And yes, of course to shoot down! Moreover, they will hit this way and that. But you can, of course, surrender and destroy everything again, and then whine at the forum "about destroyed factories, etc."
        The most heat-resistant steel with additives holds one and a half to two times less tungsten.
    2. +5
      14 August 2021 10: 11
      you can declare heights up to thousands of kilometers above the Russian Federation, its territory with all that it implies.

      and what are the consequences? Shoot down thousands of satellites? Funny. The current Russian Federation cannot even recognize the independence of the LPNR, fearing another raids from the West.
      1. +5
        14 August 2021 12: 17
        Quote: MBRBS
        you can declare heights up to thousands of kilometers above the Russian Federation, its territory with all that it implies.

        and what are the consequences? Shoot down thousands of satellites? Funny. The current Russian Federation cannot even recognize the independence of the LPNR, fearing another raids from the West.


        Okay, LDNR, almost all large Russian companies do not recognize our "own" Crimea.
      2. -3
        14 August 2021 19: 13
        Comment about nothing.
    3. +3
      14 August 2021 14: 09
      Quote: Cottodraton
      In the event that the United States withdraws from the treaty on outer space, it is possible to declare heights of up to thousands of kilometers above the Russian Federation, its territory, with all that it implies.

      And nothing follows from this.
      1. Almost the entire territory of the United States is located south of the southernmost point of the Russian Federation. So they don't need to fly over the Russian Federation too much. Canaveral is 13 degrees south of the Russian Federation, so if you do not change the inclination of the orbit, the spacecraft launched from there will never fly over Russia at all.
      2. After the very first incident with the interception of a bourgeois satellite, the bourgeoisie will begin to shoot down in general everything that Russia launches. They will not have any technical or financial problems with this. But for Russia, knocking down more and more cheap Western satellites with their increasingly cheaper output will cost a pretty penny, to put it mildly.

      There has already been a period when the pick-up satellites were filmed and were actually disposable. Nothing, launched in hundreds and not steamed. And this is without any Mask, which launches in packs of 60 or more.
      1. -3
        14 August 2021 19: 16
        Modern lasers are quite cheap and, most importantly, can quickly shoot down the so-called "cheap" satellites.
        There is no super problem here either.
        1. +3
          15 August 2021 00: 37
          Quote: Cottodraton
          Modern lasers are quite cheap and, most importantly, can quickly shoot down the so-called "cheap" satellites.
          There is no super problem here either.


          There are no lasers capable of shooting down satellites. At best, damage the optics of satellites in low orbits.
  6. -14
    14 August 2021 05: 41
    What a delight!

    "First, Saturn 5 goes through a streak of difficulties, ending April 4, 1968 in a failed unmanned rocket test.

    Then, without further unmanned tests, a ship is installed on the rocket, and, from December 1968 to May 1973, it participates in 11 successful flights, carrying spacecraft on its summit (10 Apollo and Skylab station). This period is called below "happy".

    “Literally from the first seconds of the flight, Apollo 6 bombarded the command post with alarms about all kinds of failures. Of the five engines of the first stage, only three worked, the engine of the third stage did not turn on at all, and then it "suddenly fell apart." Both main tasks of the tests were not fulfilled: the rocket worked poorly ... "The country's lunar program ran into a new difficulty," the Washington Post commented. Frankly speaking, we do not know what the matter is, - Arthur Rudolph, director of the Saturn-5 program, shrugged.

    After that, a nation of pontores and liars with fanfare went to the moon. Okay, you can't share your brains. True, even now there is no technology that allows you to ride to the moon, but in the 60s, apparently, there were. Just think, there are no docks. It is customary for gentlemen to take their word for it. For some, this is precisely a matter of faith. I advise you to watch amerskoy documentary "Challenger: The Last Flight". 4 episodes. And there they remember the astronauts, their wives. That with O-rings, everything was poorly known for THREE years before the disaster. Nobody gave a damn, because the loot. Then Columbia got covered. You will laugh, but problems with thermal protection were also known long before the disaster. This is how everything is arranged for them. What a moon! What a Musk! Elon's idiotic job is a programmed disaster due to a moronic design. It's a question of time. Pindotvari also claim that they have the most popular economy. Fools are delighted.
    1. 0
      15 August 2021 14: 12
      Quote: Court
      After that, a nation of pontores and liars with fanfare went to the moon.

      Did the N-1 fly somewhere?
      1. -3
        15 August 2021 14: 32
        No, but ours did not lie to the whole world that we were stomping on the moon. I mentioned the Challenger series. It's interesting there. In '78, they recruited a bunch of candidates for a shuttle flight and aspirated they say that there were as many as three blacks and as much as six women. A sore subject for them, tolerant. And then in plain text: the topic of shuttle flights left the editorials of newspapers, first to the fourth page, then to the eighth. I had to do something. And that's what they invented. To launch a teacher into space, so that she from orbit, for unmeasured grandmothers, taught a lesson for amerskih! We all understand that flying into space is expensive. Quite expensive. This is how you should not understand, why do you need space to launch a teacher there ???? To write about the shuttles again on the first page ... Let's see the entire amerskoy space program. First they chased us, flew off. The project was closed, everyone was fired. Then kakbe Luna, flew kakbe, closed, everyone was fired. Then Skylab, which they themselves do not like to remember. They closed them down and fired everyone. Then the shuttles, two disasters, 14 corpses, were closed, everyone was fired. Does this sound like meaningful space exploration? It looks like a show-off. And ours: an orbital station and testing of long flights, assembly in space - this is what is needed for flights to other planets. Who is sane and consistent? And now, suddenly, it turns out that in 2024 the Americans will not fly to the moon. Spacesuits are dumb. In the 60s there were, and now it is dumb. Well, don't tell me! And then, here we have Proton flies - it's a lunar rocket. Soyuz is a lunar ship. Where is at least something from the amers from the lunar program? NOTHING.
        1. +2
          15 August 2021 14: 39
          I, of course, have a day off, but I am not very ready to read such streams of consciousness.

          But.
          Quote: Court
          Soyuz is a lunar ship.

          This is the "lunar ship" - it did not dock with another lunar ship, already without brackets? Do you remember?
  7. -14
    14 August 2021 06: 02
    Capitalism will not conquer space. All these rockets are Musk to please his ego. I generally keep quiet about Roscosmos - the bottom has been broken, it has already become a meme, and with this level of corruption, we ourselves will soon be flying on Chinese rockets ourselves. Although, where to fly? to the PERMANENTLY inhabited station ROSS ?! Forgive us Yura, we are all ...!
    1. +4
      14 August 2021 12: 41
      Already conquering from the beginning with the support of the state, and when they start to extract minerals in space, private offices will develop independently, earning big money on this and attracting investors.
      1. -2
        14 August 2021 14: 08
        So far, he cannot even surpass the achievements achieved before the 1990s, and Musk can continue to build projects that do not have real-life projects in the long term. It is important for him (and not only him) to be the first. The first to launch the car to Mars, the first to build the largest rocket, the first to colonize (so that he does not put into these words) Mars. Show, from start to finish. Their casting for shuttles was not for reasons of safety and practical benefits, but in order to quickly announce commercial flights, etc. Dust in your eyes. Why dust? Yes, because in order to really move to a new stage of space exploration, not to be measured by rockets, you need to advance in science, and really move further, and not only in the invention of composite materials and digital control, and build spaceplanes on other physical principles.
        1. +2
          14 August 2021 16: 42
          They are moving forward - by creating new materials for design systems and technological processes for the production of new concepts of space technology, which in procession reduces the cost of production and the cost of launches with operation.
          1. 0
            16 August 2021 19: 11
            Quote: Vadim237
            They are moving forward - by creating new materials for design systems and technological processes for the production of new concepts of space technology, which in procession reduces the cost of production and the cost of launches with operation.

            rather the Tokamak will be miniaturized to recreate energy for spaceplanes than these marketing rockets will REALLY bring humanity closer to space exploration.
          2. 0
            18 August 2021 10: 55
            Max, of course, rattled the space industry with new ideas and new projects, returned humanity's interest in space. (By the way, there is a suspicion that as a PR manager he was harnessed by space giants who are losing perspective hi ).
            But the idea of ​​intercontinental rocket flights is extremely dubious! and not because he will not succeed, but because it will not be needed. It is unlikely that the rocket will be able to take off 30 minutes after the passengers have landed, since they have to sit down when the rocket is in a horizontal position (otherwise I don’t understand how to seat the passengers in the cabin), and then the rocket needs to be placed vertically, I think this colossus will not be set for 20 minutes. Then the prelaunch preparation, also not 5 minutes, will be refueled in an upright position. Those. from the moment of landing until the start of an hour 1,5 minimum. Then space overloads at the start and the same when braking, also a pleasure for an amateur laughing ... Is the landing also vertical? then, too, the exit process is probably an hour and a half lol To all these delights is added the actual road to the cosmodrome and from the cosmodrome, and they will be 1000 km from Tokyo and New York, 20 km from the megalopolises they will not be allowed to be built. And this road also takes about 3 hours each way. Total 90 minute flight, in fact it takes more than 10 hours with extreme overload wassat And the price for anyone will be over 1000 dollars, which is doubtful, and only a flight on a rocket, not including delivery to cosmodromes! negative And urgent transportation of goods, the same problems with logistics and what kind of cargo should be, that would have to pay several million dollars for such urgency! It is much cheaper to wait another 10 hours and avoid a bunch of problems with logistics to and from the cosmodrome and save almost all the millions spent.

            Reducing the cost of putting the load into space by increasing the scale and focusing on today's needs for space exploration is also a way against the trend! In space, electronics mainly fly, and now it is on the path of miniaturization, in theory, today's carriers, with an increase in the number of devices on board, also become more profitable due to a decrease in the price for the withdrawal of the 1st device (yesterday, 1 rocket launched 1 satellite for $ 20 million, today 30 satellites, which is already roughly 670 thousand dollars, and tomorrow 1000 satellites, which is 20 thousand dollars per satellite). At the same time, the need for satellites does not grow so much if their functionality increases. recourse

            But as a "space tourist bus" Starship is quite an option, for 10000 bucks I think there will be many who want to fly in orbit. And such a decrease in the cost of delivering bulky cargo into space will spur the development of something that wants to go into space, but is still expensive, to grow some pure crystals.
            Those. the benefits to humanity from Elon's activities are obvious good
    2. +3
      14 August 2021 14: 30
      Capitalism will not conquer space. All these rockets are Mask in order to

      Cortez was also a kind of capitalist) A bloodthirsty, repulsed thug, but still a capitalist! Who, as a result of his adventure, made himself and Spain rich, making the money received from the new world, from Spain, the superpower of that time hi
      1. -1
        14 August 2021 14: 35
        Robbing some in order to make yourself rich is the basics of capitalism. And where is Spain now !? What does she conquer ?! The wrong managers? not effective managers ?! Ahh, tired ...
        1. 0
          15 August 2021 14: 47
          Quote: Nikolay1987
          Robbing some in order to make yourself rich is the basics of capitalism.


          Was peace and friendship reigned in South and North America? Or was it not the Aztecs who made the bloody sacrifices? And in Africa, have you heard about the Great African War? No whites killed so many blacks and did not commit such atrocities on them as the blacks themselves.

          Quote: Nikolay1987
          And where is Spain now !? What does she conquer ?!


          In the European Union, he lives a well-fed, contented life.
      2. -3
        14 August 2021 15: 09
        made both himself and Spain rich

        USA - the first economy in the world, printing press - thanks to which the debt has already reached 28 trillion. Where are the results?
        1. +1
          22 August 2021 11: 00
          Results: The vast majority of modern advances in high technology, space and defense are in the United States.
          Quote: Nikolay1987
          thanks to which the debt has already reached 28 trillion
          Most of the developed Western countries have high external debt. But all sorts of banana republics do not have it, or it is very small, but did they live better and more satisfying because of this?))
          1. 0
            22 August 2021 18: 26
            Results: The vast majority of modern advances in high technology, space and defense are in the United States.

            I mean, having such superiority in scientific, practical, economic areas, Americans "not limited" in money are still squeezed within the limits - n-th amount of dollars per 1 kg of weight. Cost reduction is necessary and right, but in a world where the project will be economically unprofitable, despite the need for science, we will stagnate.
            Musk's ambitions only push our snickering officials to fuss more, because they are losing face on the world stage.
  8. +6
    14 August 2021 06: 06
    I read it with interest, but I do not strongly share the author's anxiety.
    1. The Russian Federation undoubtedly has the technical competencies necessary to create reusable media, but before investing tens, and maybe hundreds of billions of dollars, it is necessary to assess the real efficiency of reusable systems. Promising does not mean getting married, the author himself writes that the promises with the space shuttle did not come true.
    2. I strongly suspect that the declared cost of the launch in dollars has little to do with its cost in the Russian Federation.
    3. While the launch vehicles are flying into orbit on chemical engines, when the payload is 3-5% of the total mass of the launching complex, there will be no price revolution.
    4. A revolution will happen when a spacecraft puts itself into orbit and returns itself, like a car, an airplane, or a ship. There should not be a PH, in principle, as a class.
    5. For this, it is necessary to create engines for the spacecraft based on new physical principles. So far, nothing has been heard about this.
    ps
    it is the use of Starship for the intercontinental transport of passengers.

    To transfer 80 tons from the USA to Tokyo, approximately 1 tons of fuel and oxidizer will have to be burned.
    The cost of such delivery will be truly cosmic.
    1. +5
      14 August 2021 09: 18
      1. The Russian Federation undoubtedly has the technical competencies necessary to create reusable media, but before investing tens, and maybe hundreds of billions of dollars, it is necessary to assess the real efficiency of reusable systems. Promising does not mean getting married, the author himself writes that the promises with the space shuttle did not come true.


      20 Musk launches this year were made with 7 boosters.

      Rogozin in recent interviews breaks through the methane gas as much as he can.
    2. +4
      14 August 2021 09: 49
      Quote: Alexey Sommer
      I read it with interest, but I do not strongly share the author's anxiety.
      1. The Russian Federation undoubtedly has the technical competencies necessary to create reusable media, but before investing tens, and maybe hundreds of billions of dollars, it is necessary to assess the real efficiency of reusable systems. Promising does not mean getting married, the author himself writes that the promises with the space shuttle did not come true.


      Falcon 9 has already come true. As for the competencies, they were definitely there, but I don’t know what was left.

      Quote: Alexey Sommer
      2. I strongly suspect that the declared cost of the launch in dollars has little to do with its cost in the Russian Federation.


      We could have reduced it - we would have reduced it, we lost the market in many respects.

      Quote: Alexey Sommer
      3. While the launch vehicles are flying into orbit on chemical engines, when the payload is 3-5% of the total mass of the launching complex, there will be no price revolution.


      100 flights on one rocket is a revolution in itself.

      Quote: Alexey Sommer
      4. A revolution will happen when a spacecraft puts itself into orbit and returns itself, like a car, an airplane, or a ship. There should not be a PH, in principle, as a class.
      5. For this, it is necessary to create engines for the spacecraft based on new physical principles. So far, nothing has been heard about this.


      It would certainly be great, but you have to work with what you have. Even without fundamentally new engines, we still have room to move. There will be an article about engines.

      Quote: Alexey Sommer

      it is the use of Starship for the intercontinental transport of passengers.

      To transfer 80 tons from the USA to Tokyo, approximately 1 tons of fuel and oxidizer will have to be burned.
      The cost of such delivery will be truly cosmic.


      Not cheap.

      Full refueling Superhevy + Starship is 4500 tons of fuel. About 2/3 methane, 1/3 oxygen. Those. 3000 tons of methane and 1500 tons of oxygen. One ton of liquefied oxygen in Moscow costs 9000 rubles. (in bulk, two times less, and if you produce it yourself, then three times).

      Methane is sold in cubic meters. 3000 tons of methane according to the gas calculator https://predklapan.ru/kalkulyator_gaza is 4470000 cubic meters. For 1000 cubic meters, the price jumps on the exchange $ 300-450.
      Thus:
      oxygen RUB 13500000 or at the rate of 75 rubles / $ it will be $ 180 (kopecks).
      Methane is more expensive, depending on the exchange 1 or 341

      The total is approximately $ 2. Musk himself seems to be talking about 000 million for fuel and 000 million for the cost of launching missiles with infrastructure and maintenance. Those. the ticket should cost about $ 0,9 Now a non-stop flight New York-Tokyo in business class costs about $ 2,9-30000, but the flight time will be an order of magnitude shorter.

      But people, okay, there are goods requiring ultra-fast transportation, the price there will not be so critical, incl. for the military.

      In addition, at a distance of up to 10 km, the Straship will seem to fly without the first stage, i.e. all prices are divided by three.
      1. -3
        14 August 2021 14: 23
        Quote: AVM
        Falcon 9 has already come true. As for the competencies, they were definitely there, but I don’t know what was left.

        First, it's still $ 2000 ...
        Secondly, you know, excuse me by rank ...
        Quote: AVM
        We could have reduced it - we would have reduced it, we lost the market in many respects.

        How much? ....
        What is the market share as a percentage.
        How much was it? How much has become?
        Quote: AVM
        100 flights on one rocket is a revolution in itself.

        Yes. But only when they take place. The shuttle also waited for 100 flights, and took place in the amount of 135.
        Quote: AVM
        Full refueling Superhevy + Starship is 4500 tons

        It's even worse than I thought.
        If that Boeing 787 spends a little more than 100 tons on this flight, and the ticket, as you say, costs $ 13.
        And your ticket for 4 tons of fuel will cost $ 500? ...
      2. +1
        15 August 2021 09: 27
        The Starship will have 1000 seats for passenger transportation, with such a flight time they do not need toilets, a large crew, food and other excesses. Just a bunch of seats on which ground personnel will be seated and attached and that's it. Then, upon arrival, the ground personnel will come in and unhook them and take them out. And that's all.
        In terms of payload, Starship can comfortably accommodate such a number of passengers.
        And 100 places is for Mars where you already need a place to move, eat, go to the toilet, etc.
        1. 0
          15 August 2021 14: 31
          Quote: BlackMokona
          The Starship will have 1000 seats for passenger transportation, with such a flight time they do not need toilets, a large crew, food and other excesses. Just a bunch of seats on which ground personnel will be seated and attached and that's it. Then, upon arrival, the ground personnel will come in and unhook them and take them out. And that's all.
          In terms of payload, Starship can comfortably accommodate such a number of passengers.
          And 100 places is for Mars where you already need a place to move, eat, go to the toilet, etc.


          I understand, but I have big doubts that it will be possible to recruit 1000 passengers every time. On the other hand, one Starship can carry both passengers and urgent cargo (donor organs, rare perishable food for millionaires?). Then the cost of the flight will be divided into passengers and cargo delivery.
          1. +1
            15 August 2021 15: 03
            There will already be marketers to consider which is better. But technically a thousand is not a problem.
            And ultra-long flights of the New York-Tokyo class have a good flow of passengers that can be discouraged from airlines if they offer delivery much faster for the price of first class.
            And there a thousand passengers for 10 thousand dollars are already 10 million dollars of money. Moreover, Musk plans to extract methane himself and has already bought rigs, and he also makes oxygen himself and has already submitted plans for the construction.
    3. +5
      14 August 2021 09: 57
      1. Space Shuttle and SpaceX Starship are completely different space systems. It is incorrect to compare them. It is also incorrect to compare the landing of the shuttle (in fact, the spacecraft) with the propulsion landing of a conventional stage of the launch vehicle.
      2. One can suspect something else with the same reason. In particular, the cost of launching the same Union or Angara in rubles has little to do with the cost of launching in dollars.
      3. While there is such a thing as a "gravitational well", there is no other way to escape from it even on LEO, except for chemical engines, for the next half century-century mankind does not and will not have.
      4. Familiarize yourself with the Tsiolkovsky formula. There are only 4 variables. It will help you understand what size and weight this miracle-CA will be offered by you. The launch vehicles are made multistage not at the whim of the designer and not from a good life.
      5. Do you propose to take off from the surface of the Earth immediately on ionic, plasma, nuclear, photonic and other propulsion systems? Original ... To date, there is no alternative to chemistry for the output of a decent mass PN on LEO. What can happen next, how and by what means the further launch of the spacecraft into the departure trajectory will be carried out is another question. But this will obviously not be done by a spacecraft that "will put itself into orbit."
      6. Believe it or not, a Boeing 747 burns 14,5 tons of fuel in just one hour of flight.
      1. -5
        14 August 2021 15: 39
        I wanted to answer in detail, but after reading to the end I realized that it was not necessary.
        Sorry for "-" You write nonsense, from the first to the last point.
        And you don’t know a damn about this engineering.
        It's too lazy to argue.
        "Do not wake up dashingly while it is quiet" (C)
        1. +2
          14 August 2021 16: 21
          Those. was there any desire to answer?
          So what got in the way?
          Laziness?
          Or an inability to think in engineering?
  9. 0
    14 August 2021 07: 11
    Quote: Cottodraton

    If the United States withdraws from the treaty on outer space, it is possible to declare heights of up to thousands of kilometers above the Russian Federation, its territory, with all the consequences.
    The eye can see but the tooth is numb. It's easier not to notice
  10. +1
    14 August 2021 07: 18
    Believers in Saint Elon are very similar to believers in the holy apple. They are confident in the infallibility and perfection of the object of their faith.
    Where is the hyperloop with building materials from the excavated soil? Where are the chargers storing cheap night electricity in every home? Tesla, too, has far from monopolized the electric vehicle market.
    If Musk could drastically lower the launch cost and squeeze everyone out of the market, he would have done it already. Shuttle traders were mentioned here, and by the way, I will remind you that initially they were supposed to fly twice a month and put a kilogram of cargo into orbit for like 500 bucks.
    Boeing and Lockheed just got drunk and lazy, failed the Ares, finish the SLS for terrible money on the technologies of the eighties, and the United States was forced to give up the developments on the promising rocket, incl. and according to Merlin, and constructors to an outside person. He justified the trust, now he is making a rocket for a new lunar program.
    1. +3
      14 August 2021 12: 35
      Quote: demiurg
      ... Where is the hyperloop with building materials from the excavated soil?


      And what, all 100% of his projects must be successful? Did at least one company have this? There is no business without risk.

      Quote: demiurg
      Where are the chargers storing cheap night electricity in every home?


      Why should they be in everyone? They are being sold quite successfully.

      Quote: demiurg
      Tesla, too, has far from monopolized the electric vehicle market.


      Should have? It's amazing that a completely new company produces and sells so much. And Tesla actually popularized the car market, gave it a kick in the ass. And now it is clear that everyone who is not lazy began to do them.

      Quote: demiurg
      If Musk could drastically lower the launch cost and squeeze everyone out of the market, he would have done it already.


      This will not be allowed by the regulatory authorities. Access to space is a critical technology, if SpaceX suddenly shuts down, then there must be those who will replace it. Therefore, it makes no sense to work at the minimum price - it is enough to be a little cheaper than virtually "unkillable" competitors.

      Quote: demiurg
      Shuttle traders were mentioned here, and by the way, I will remind you that initially they were supposed to fly twice a month and put a kilogram of cargo into orbit for like 500 bucks.


      A combination of factors - the collapse of the USSR, the reduction of satellites, not always effective technical solutions. But the shuttle work did not go unnoticed. THEIR unmanned shuttle flies very successfully. And "Runner for a Dream" is likely to fly - at least in an unmanned version.


      Quote: demiurg
      Boeing and Lockheed just got drunk and lazy, failed the Ares, finish the SLS for terrible money on the technologies of the eighties, and the United States was forced to give up the developments on the promising rocket, incl. and according to Merlin, and constructors to an outside person. He justified the trust, now he is making a rocket for a new lunar program.


      This is so.
      1. +3
        14 August 2021 13: 38
        Where are the chargers storing cheap night electricity in every home?


        Tesla Energy last year showed a net profit of several billion. Orders for six months in advance. Tesla itself entered the top three best-selling cars in Europe. Tesla Model 3 is the best-selling electric car in the world.
      2. +1
        15 August 2021 09: 33
        Hyperloop Musk never promised to implement, and gave the idea to the public domain, two companies not associated with Musk were created that are actively working.
        The construction of the tunnels is carried out by the Maska Boring company, and judging by the news, everything is wonderfully winning with it contracts for the construction of tunnels and is successfully implementing them. Customers have no complaints
    2. 0
      14 August 2021 12: 49
      "Those who believe in Saint Elon are very much like those who believe in the holy apple. They are confident in the infallibility and perfection of the object of their faith." His company and not only he alone create reusable rocket technology - and in the technology of the word I do not believe no, all the equipment is an exact system - it works and does not work there. And with your beliefs, go to church.
  11. +21
    14 August 2021 07: 30
    Some kind of ambiguous article ... It seems that the author says everything correctly, but some kind of sediment remains request
  12. 0
    14 August 2021 07: 38
    Person.
    You've shit so much on Earth!
    Leave the Cosmos alone.
    1. 0
      14 August 2021 07: 46
      Quote: prior
      Person.
      You've shit so much on Earth!
      Leave the Cosmos alone.

      You are also a person))) drinks
      1. 0
        14 August 2021 07: 50
        Yes. And no human vices are alien to me, alas.
        As Arkady Raikin used to say: "We inhale oxygen, and we strive to exhale all kinds of nasty things ..."
        1. 0
          15 August 2021 09: 34
          They exhaled all the muck that plants suddenly breathe.
          1. 0
            16 August 2021 17: 41
            They exhaled all the muck that plants suddenly breathe.

            Teach school materiel: plants also breathe oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Photosynthesis IS ANOTHER. Although yes, the overall balance is positive.
    2. +3
      14 August 2021 09: 22
      It is difficult to imagine space in the head even in our solar system without strong simplifications. Not to mention a cluster of 10 luminaries.

      And yes, it's just unrealistic to make a mess. We are too insects if we go beyond the limits of not the largest, as we see the planets of the terrestrial group.
      1. 0
        14 August 2021 09: 29
        Near-Earth space has a different opinion.
        There is already so much rubbish for 60 years of the development of astronautics!
        And not a single gasterbayer with a broom ...
        1. 0
          14 August 2021 10: 07
          Quote: prior
          Near-Earth space has a different opinion.
          There is already so much rubbish for 60 years of the development of astronautics!
          And not a single gasterbayer with a broom ...


          It's still expensive to fly there, and when it turns out that for $ 1 million it is possible to take out and bring down a space cleaner (with a load), then everyone will remember that the old satellites are full of gold, platinum, iridium and God knows what else - they will sweep everything away, and they will ask for more.

          And if some kind of production appears in orbit, then there will be no need to reduce it.

          In the USSR, old computers and nonferrous metals were often simply buried in the ground, and when the Union collapsed, these clever people dug up the rubble and earned a lot of money.
    3. 0
      14 August 2021 10: 04
      Quote: prior
      Person.
      You've shit so much on Earth!
      Leave the Cosmos alone.


      Just the opposite. The land is the most valuable thing - it must be protected. Everything that is possible must be put into space - industry, energy.

      And to fuck up space it is still necessary to try - "He will eat something, but who will give him ?!"
  13. -3
    14 August 2021 09: 30
    Indeed, the Americans have made another qualitative breakthrough - reducing the cost of launching objects into space - and will saturate the orbit with detectors and weapons. And all ICBMs will cover, all opponents are at gunpoint. And the rest do not have such a thing and will not soon - or never at all - will. Is the period of almost total US supremacy coming? How will they use it - will they destroy the armed forces of potential adversaries? Iran first, after all the rest? Iran is more likely yes, Russia is possible, and China will be wary?
  14. -5
    14 August 2021 09: 34
    It is quite possible that right now we are witnessing a historical event that could become a turning point in the development of mankind.

    And there is! good Respect to the author for an interesting article! hi
    While envious people grit their teeth, Musk is making history!
  15. +3
    14 August 2021 09: 39
    at the first stage of the Soviet super-heavy five-stage LV N-1, 30 NK-33 engines were installed at once

    NK-15... The NK-33 never flew to the N-1.
  16. -2
    14 August 2021 09: 45
    the use of Starship for the intercontinental transport of passengers.
    And what percentage of potential passengers has "astronaut health" - that is, impeccable physical shape and absolutely balanced psyche?
    1. +4
      14 August 2021 11: 17
      [quote = Boltorez] [quote] using Starship for intercontinental passenger transport. [/ quote] And what percentage of potential passengers have "cosmonaut health" - that is, impeccable physical shape and absolutely balanced psyche?

      Requirements for the physical form of astronauts are exaggerated. It is clear that if you fly for six months, or set up some experiments, work with equipment, then you need more health. But almost everyone can sit in the passenger seat.

      John Glenn flew into space at the age of 77, although, of course, he is trained. But now 82-year-old Wally Funk has already flown into suborbital flight.
      1. 0
        14 August 2021 11: 26
        82-year-old Wally Funk has already flown.
        Each potential passenger still has to go through some kind of check. And what will the beer belly say when overloaded? In general, I think this is a project.
        1. +1
          15 August 2021 09: 36
          And there the overloads are not at all large. Well, I think there are no more checks than to get into a dynamic sports car, there are also overloads there
          Or to attractions in which they can be higher
  17. 0
    14 August 2021 09: 49
    The orbital strike forces will be opposed by directed energy weapons (laser, beam, electromagnetic), as well as electromagnetic and other bombs placed in space near the enemy's strike orbital objects. It's almost impossible to create an ultimate weapon.
    1. +2
      14 August 2021 10: 14
      Quote: viktor_47
      The orbital strike forces will be opposed by directed energy weapons (laser, beam, electromagnetic), as well as electromagnetic and other bombs placed in space near the enemy's strike orbital objects. It's almost impossible to create an ultimate weapon.


      The laser is unlikely - in space it is the easiest to defend against it. Beam in the atmosphere is useless, i.e. it must be withdrawn, as well as EMP ammunition (and instead of them it is better to use ordinary, fragmentation ammunition - there will be more use).

      The question is not about absolute weapons, but about access to the "battlefield" - ie. to space.

      Imagine that an hour of flight of their fighter would cost $ 1000, and our $ 100000, with comparable economies, could we, in this situation, win air supremacy?

      If they (and most likely China) get cheap access to space, but we do not, then we will lose the status of a great power. We have 20-30 years of time to solve this problem. Hardly more.
      1. -1
        14 August 2021 12: 13
        Mu have already lost this status.
      2. -4
        14 August 2021 13: 12
        We have 20-30 years of time to solve this problem.

        I consider this an optimistic term. Each next missed year shortens the period by 5 - 6 - 10 years. Technologies are developing incrementally, time to catch up, less and less ... hi
        1. -1
          14 August 2021 16: 48
          I consider this an optimistic term. Each missed next year shortens the period by 5 - 6 - 10 years. Why is it - technologies are not developing at such a pace.
          1. -2
            14 August 2021 17: 24
            Why is it - technologies are not developing at such a pace.

            If we look at the timeline, then over the past 100 years technology has developed more than in all the previous existence of mankind. And over the past 20-30 years, even more. Development is on the rise based on the accumulation of knowledge! Each new acquisition gives birth to 100 new ones.
  18. -4
    14 August 2021 10: 00
    solid-propellant boosters by parachute splashed down into the ocean and, after checking and refueling, could be reused

    Uh-huh, which was the reason for the closure of the program, they killed 14! man (Columbia 2003, Challenger 1986) ... I saw these disasters with my own eyes on TV ... in contrast to the incomprehensible muddy black-and-white landings filmed by an obvious front-projection, the originals of which have strangely disappeared ... the heritage of all mankind "bam bam" (with)
  19. -1
    14 August 2021 10: 10
    To begin with, a person needs to learn to separate his unbridled fantasies from reality. It is now clear that the problem solving paths themselves are based on integrating a large number of engines to handle weight and payload - and that's a dead end! It is necessary to work with energy and motor density on these principles.
  20. -1
    14 August 2021 10: 18
    And here again:
    Dockers of spaceships accused of fraud on the ground
    https://news.mail.ru/incident/47517348/?frommail=1&exp_id=828
    1. +1
      14 August 2021 16: 50
      The main thing is that such people are increasingly being brought out to clean water - this means that Roskosmos is getting healthier.
  21. -6
    14 August 2021 10: 35
    Launch of the first satellite, Gagarin's flight, spacewalk, landing on the Moon (let's make a reservation right away, the author considers denial of the visit by Americans to the Moon as one of the most severe forms of obscurantism, akin to denial of HIV, vaccinations and other nonsense generated by supporters of the "flat Earth")


    I don’t know anything about the arguments of the flat-earth, HIV and vaccine advocates, but the Americans were not on the moon. They have always been famous for their great cinematography, so they shot another movie under the tacit consent of the then top of the USSR.
  22. 0
    14 August 2021 11: 02
    Nice article, with data for thought and pictures!
  23. 0
    14 August 2021 11: 16
    A good analysis of the prospects for the development of space systems. Respect to the author.
  24. +19
    14 August 2021 12: 07
    It is also time for Russia to put aside confusion and vacillation in the space industry, clearly formulate goals and ensure

    This should be addressed directly to those who make decisions.
  25. -5
    14 August 2021 12: 37
    However, SpaceX has a business plan far more real than sending colonists to Mars - using Starship to transport passengers intercontinentally. When flying from New York to Tokyo through Earth's orbit, the flight time will be about 90 minutes. At the same time, SpaceX plans to ensure operational reliability at the level of modern large airliners, and the cost of the flight - at the level of the cost of a transcontinental
    flight in business class.

    Is this what I just read? ))))
    Why is the plane good? Uses the density of air for flight (planning), which significantly saves energy costs for the flight.
    And what about the rocket? Well overclocked, but how to slow down? Use motors for braking? So this is a large energy consumption, much more than that of an airplane.
    I don't see a single way, with existing engines (if nothing revolutionary has been invented), in which rocket delivery would be cheaper than aviation))))))
    1. -2
      14 August 2021 12: 50
      Quote: lucul
      Is this what I just read? ))))
      Why is the plane good? Uses the density of air for flight (planning), which significantly saves energy costs for the flight.
      And what about the rocket? Well overclocked, but how to slow down? Use motors for braking? So this is a large energy consumption, much more than that of an airplane.
      I don't see any way, with existing engines (if nothing revolutionary has been invented), in which rocket delivery would be cheaper than aviation))))))


      And it will not be cheaper, it will be faster for those who are willing to pay for it.
    2. +1
      15 August 2021 09: 39
      The advantage of the rocket is that for most of the flight it does not spend energy to overcome air resistance. On ultra-long haul flights, these savings become delicious.
  26. 0
    14 August 2021 13: 18
    In fact, the expansion of mankind in space is stopped by 2 factors:

    1) the price of bringing the cargo to LEO
    2) the cost and complexity of flights in outer space itself

    The first problem, just the same, is solved by heavy reusable launch vehicles. After all, one of the reasons that severely limits the development of the satellite industry is the high cost of delivery. Even the smallest 1U CubeSat will ship to LEO for $ 6. And if you need to run it further !? To the Moon or Mars for example !? And if we are assembling a lighter, but more complex and serious scientific satellite, in 12U or XNUMXU sizes !? Such satellites are still cheap in and of themselves (even ordinary schools can afford if they save up, I generally keep quiet about large universities), but launching them is even more expensive. The only hope remains for charity programs, when, when launching heavy cargo, they launch a couple of light satellites for free.
    And if we reduce the cost of launching a kilogram of cargo to at least $ 100-200, then we can start talking about such a thing as space mail or something like that. In short - lowering the cost of launching cargo into space will not only greatly facilitate access to LEO for more people / organizations, but potentially open up new market directions in the space industry.
    1. +1
      14 August 2021 13: 46
      The second problem is being solved by the creation of reusable orbital tugs. We put them into orbit once, and then, once in some time (depending on the design) we refuel and it flies on. Now we are actually engaged in "throwing" the load where it is necessary. All our cargo (stations, ships or satellites) fly as they were thrown and I can only adjust my trajectory, and they fly by themselves. The nuclear / chemical / electric tug project will solve the second problem. After all, we no longer need to use heavy launch vehicles for launching light cargo over long distances. Now, creating a scientific satellite (let's say for studying the icy satellites of the gas giants), we will not have to launch it on a heavy launch vehicle. We launch it to LEO using a medium or light launch vehicle (depending on the mass of the satellite), where it docks with a tug. This tug takes him to his destination. It undocks, the satellite begins its research work, and the tug returns to Earth orbit for the next order. In theory, the creation of heavy and reusable launch vehicles (like Starship) will allow creating and populating the orbit with a large number of even more lifting tugs (larger and more powerful than the projected Nuclon / Zeus), which in the future will allow starting the transportation of large loads in less time. in the future, they will be engaged in transferring meteorites to the Earth's orbit. From the Earth to the target, a tug transports a satellite. And on the way back, a meteorite with useful resources, which then, in Earth's orbit (for example, at a distance greater than the Moon) will process and return the finished material to the Earth ...

      So the future of astronautics can be formulated in such a thesis.

      The country was the first to implement the idea of ​​heavy, cheap and reusable launch vehicles or orbital tugs, and will receive a colossal strategic advantage over other countries. In the beginning it will be an engineering and military advantage, and in the future it will also be an economic one.

      But the country that successfully implements BOTH technologies will really populate space and begin to make profit on it.
      1. -1
        15 August 2021 00: 41
        Quote: Mustache Cock
        ... But the country that successfully implements BOTH technologies will really populate space and begin to make profit on it.


        I absolutely agree with you!
  27. +3
    14 August 2021 13: 30
    It is quite possible that right now we are witnessing a historical event that could become a turning point in the development of mankind.


    Ostap suffered laughing
    1. 0
      14 August 2021 18: 57

      Space engines
  28. 0
    14 August 2021 14: 06
    slide down to the level of North Korea, sitting on a "nuclear suitcase" and threatening to blow yourself up if something happens
    Koreans have YaB, and at least some means of delivery, and a suitcase. Thoughts about the possibility of spoiling a neighbor, blowing themselves up with a peaceful atom, are not born among Koreans.
  29. +2
    14 August 2021 14: 18
    Private companies have changed everything, and it is quite natural that this happened in the United States, where the most comfortable conditions for business have been created.

    How short human memory is. It is understandable with such and such an attitude to the study of history. We look into the 50s and are impressed by the success of private traders in space exploration, and we understand why in the USA, where “the most comfortable conditions” had to urgently involve the state to send a man into space.
  30. 0
    14 August 2021 15: 04
    Quote: AVM
    And here again:
    Dockers of spaceships accused of fraud on the ground
    https://news.mail.ru/incident/47517348/?frommail=1&exp_id=828

    Yes, it's not a secret for a long time that we carry stock goods on the sly, here they started asking questions rather for Science, so they drown each other.
    2nd option is more prosaic. It is easy to divide 20 million for two, but 200 is already impossible to divide into two (a saying from the 90s).
  31. 0
    14 August 2021 15: 27
    Quote: Choi
    our space industry will be even deeper at the bottom.


    The problem is not that at the bottom, but that we will not start to emerge in any way. There is no leader capable of setting the correct vector.

    How quickly will the US military begin to migrate into orbit?


    They have already started. It is not for nothing that the space command was allocated into a separate branch of the military.

    Musk is certainly great, but his terms need to be constantly increased by two at best. At 24 no one will fly to Mars, and neither will the moon. But he has already shown that he can do what was considered madness and fantasy. When everyone said that the landing of the steps was utter stupidity, he did not listen to anyone and did. Notice all the great inventions that influenced the development of civilization were considered unnecessary in their time. The president of IBM in the 60s once said that he did not know why an ordinary American family had their own computer at home. So it's a thankless task to predict. Spaceix may or may not be able to handle technological risks and change the course of history. Unfortunately, we can only sit back on the back of the sofa and watch as uninvolved spectators.

    Nobody said that the reuse of rungs is stupidity. Moreover, such systems were launched into space (Shuttle and Buran), but to make them economically profitable, that was the main question. Musk made such a system, but it has not yet been worked out according to the conveyor system and the cost figures that were indicated in the article correspond to reality, provided that the return stage is used. And this does not always happen. But we are modern, the technology will be worked out and the cost will start to decrease.
    But now, in fact, the cost per kg is higher than the indicated one, only it is not shown to us.
  32. +3
    14 August 2021 16: 07
    Quote: Cottodraton
    In the event that the United States withdraws from the treaty on outer space, it is possible to declare heights of up to thousands of kilometers above the Russian Federation, its territory, with all that it implies.

    You can declare that. Only space over the territory of the Baltic States, what to do? From an altitude of 200 km to Moscow time is less than 700 km. From the conditional Kyrgyzstan or Mongolia to Chelyabinsk, Omsk, Novosibirsk, less than 2 thousand km. Will Kazakhstan monitor its space?
  33. +4
    14 August 2021 16: 45
    Quote: ALSur
    such systems were launched into space (Shuttle and Buran), but to make them economically profitable, that was the main question. Musk made such a system, but it has not yet been worked out on the conveyor system.


    The difficulty with economics is that the dependencies are not direct and there is a "chain reaction" effect that Musk is counting on. Reducing the price by orders of magnitude will create a launch market, which today is not quantitatively available, since there is no need and no payloads yet. When it becomes cheap, there will be those PNs that are not justified in today's conditions. This is hope, it is not guaranteed. But Starlink is an example of this type of PN, which generates the need for hundreds or thousands of launches.

    And historically it was the same. There were hopes that did not come true, did not come true. I hope that Musk will come true. The shuttles, provided they are launched once a week, could also probably be brought to economic efficiency, and their systemic security problems could also be solved by the "Musk method" - at the cost of dozens of accidents of unmanned versions. But everything crashed against the economy. Maybe lucky this time?

    I personally do not see any economic benefits in space: resource extraction on asteroids, He3 on the Moon, space tourism, exotic production in zero gravity - all this still looks pale. But I am not a visionary, unlike Musk.
  34. +1
    14 August 2021 16: 58
    Reducing the cost of launches is a useful and necessary business. I'd love to see a base on Mars this century. But I don’t share the author’s fears about the threat from space. It is not difficult to disable a satellite. It is unlikely that there will be "thinkers" in the US leadership who are ready to threaten billions of dollars into a system that can be blown out of orbit by one successful explosion that triggers a chain reaction of destruction by the debris of one satellite of others.
  35. 0
    14 August 2021 17: 16
    However, SpaceX has a business plan far more real than sending colonists to Mars - using Starship to transport passengers intercontinentally. When flying from New York to Tokyo through Earth's orbit, the flight time will be about 90 minutes
    .
    I read about this as a child, some kind of Soviet science fiction for children was published somewhere in the mid-60s, I don't remember the name.
    1. +1
      15 August 2021 22: 53
      Quote: parusnik
      some kind of Soviet science fiction for children was published somewhere in the mid-60s

      Here she is!

      https://fantlab.ru/edition78597
      1. +1
        16 August 2021 04: 53
        No, it's about the boys, they hijacked the rocket smile
    2. +2
      16 August 2021 17: 54
      I read about this as a child, some kind of Soviet science fiction for children was published somewhere in the mid-60s, I don't remember the name.

      Heinlein wrote about this in his very first story ("If this continues") at the end of the 30s.
      1. +1
        16 August 2021 18: 19
        Perhaps it's just there a dialogue, they say, from the village of Kuzminki took off and a couple of minutes later landed in the neighboring one. smile
  36. -3
    14 August 2021 18: 08
    All that is stated from the point of view of ecology and costs, the day before yesterday. For a flight to Mars, teams of 3-5 people need to put into Earth orbit in the range of at least 5 to 10 thousand tons of cargo, for example, 2-3 main source of energy and at least 1-2 emergency., block is a shelter from solar flares and cosmic radiation, still unknown to science. within hundreds of km / sec, etc. etc. etc. And all this to collect in the orbit of the earth, or better on possibly on the lunar. S.P. Korolyov was preparing a 500-ton Martian spacecraft, which the Tsar rocket was supposed to throw into orbit in parts of 70-100 tons. Since then, nothing has changed in terms of launching into orbit. Musk and in "Arguments of the week" on July 23 of this year. Their proposals for the launch of 200-ton cargo into low orbit using modern hybrid airships on the basis of his patent. I did not receive a clear answer from Roscosmos, although in telephone conversations with its employees nothing significant was said against, even information about the development was dropped on the Internet, for example, by the Rocket Lab company something similar, but in a primitive scheme. that in the future we will overcome the gravity of the earth with the help of aeronautical systems, but now we are going to the wrong steppe, forgetting that “Hindenburg had a carrying capacity of 160 tons. e. a little short of the height of the separation of the first stage of "Saturn-60"
  37. 0
    14 August 2021 18: 33
    The truth must be looked directly into her shameless eyes! Russia has neither a clear strategy for space exploration, nor serious reasons to do this, nor funds for its independent exploration. Khrushchev-style rhetoric of "catching up and overtaking America" ​​is not a strategy. Being an endangered country, where citizens have not been the target of the state for centuries. politicians, but are only a means of achieving "great goals" - often criminal - at their expense and at the cost of their lives, Russia will constantly lag behind in all spheres of public life, economics and politics. The process has long been clearly visible and irreversible. At this point, there is no time for space ... Siberia has no one and nothing to populate and develop. The only thing that Russia can generate is a "prestigious" flag-stick on the Moon at the cost of a total robbery of an already systematically robbed population. But Russia will not be able to compete with the United States, China, India and, in the long term, Europe. And in the future war, which is being ravaged by the arms race today, it will generally be smashed to smithereens.
    1. -1
      14 August 2021 20: 48
      Contact a psychologist there with your mint "cabin" will be sorted out.
  38. +2
    14 August 2021 19: 01
    The article was a success. Thanks a lot to the author!

    However, there are also points with which you can argue.
    And as bases on the Moon, flights to Mars - it was something that was taken for granted .. But the priorities have changed. The technologies of the last century, although they made it possible to implement all of the above, were extremely expensive.

    Here we can add that the problem is not only in the cost of putting the cargo into orbit. Interplanetary flights on chemical rockets are akin to traveling across the Atlantic on a log. On a dispute, those suffering from an excess of optimism, perhaps, will swim. But opening a transatlantic line to Kon-Tiki is a controversial business plan, to put it mildly. It turns out that in addition to a cheap take-off from the surface of the planet, something faster is required in interplanetary flights. So far, there are only the first experiments .. Maybe atomic engines will turn out, maybe ionic ones. But there is really nothing to fly yet.

    By the way, the most interesting task in the solar system is not even interplanetary flights, but the exploration of asteroids. That's where the bonanza is. Including in the literal sense.

    As for the Russian cosmonautics, the most interesting and promising project seems to be the Corona from the Makeev SRC. The single-hull, fully reusable rocket still has a chance to compete with Musk's rockets. Unless, of course, something happens. They say that in 2017, work on this project was resumed, despite the continuing powerful lobbyism of Angara manufacturers.
    1. -2
      14 August 2021 20: 58
      The hangar has already been made and flies at the final stage of testing, and since it is modular, after the Amur LNG goes, it will be possible to replace the modules with reusable ones, and on ion engines you will fly to other planets for years, since their thrust is scanty, as a result of a very slow acceleration for interplanetary flights need three-component propulsion rocket engines YLRE and, in the distant future, thermonuclear rocket engines.
      1. +2
        15 August 2021 00: 55
        Quote: Vadim237
        after Amur LNG is supplied, it will be possible to replace the modules with reusable ones

        Which modules to replace? What are you talking about? Disposable and reusable stages differ dramatically, this is a completely different rocket and will need to be designed from scratch.
        1. -2
          15 August 2021 14: 43
          It is not necessary that the Angara has modules and these modules can be replaced with improved reusable ones in the same dimensions. Why the hell to create a rocket from scratch when you can make the first stages reusable. And Angara will be the main launch vehicle for Russia for 60 years. for it, in any case, they will create new first stages and upper stages - for reusability and increasing the carrying capacity.
    2. 0
      15 August 2021 09: 46
      The problem of the Crown is that there is no engine for it and nothing has been heard about its development. And in projects they put an extremely unique piece there.
      1. 0
        15 August 2021 19: 09
        There is some hope that the work on the engines is simply classified. This is a really sensitive topic, the whole area is closed to the curious. On the other hand, there have been no major advances in engines, both rocket and aircraft, in recent years. It's probably much worse than we'd hoped.
        1. -1
          15 August 2021 19: 21
          It's still better to think and discuss according to open sources, otherwise everything slips into anecdotal situations.
    3. +2
      16 August 2021 10: 16
      In my opinion, people have nothing to do in space (as well as on the Moon with Mars) - this is work (both research and industrial) in the most difficult conditions and robots must do it.
      1. +1
        17 August 2021 00: 39
        Both robots and automatic factories need to be deployed and configured. This part of the work, as a rule, requires the participation of people. Well, the automatic plant itself can dig asteroids and send data with cargoes. This is how it will appear and will look like. It's up to the cosmonauts to launch the mining complex and from time to time drop in for adjustments and maintenance.
        1. +1
          17 August 2021 01: 42
          I think there will be some kind of self-deploying complexes, with repair robots, etc. With much more complex programs and advanced AI.
          1. +1
            17 August 2021 21: 50
            Quote: Maxim G
            there will be some self-deploying complexes

            But this is definitely a distant future. Deployment is the most slippery moment, requiring a bunch of non-trivial solutions. It is definitely impossible to do without a person here in the coming decades. Well, someday, after the appearance of a full-fledged AI, they may learn to self-unfold. laughing
            1. +1
              18 August 2021 06: 52
              Scenarios, situations should be worked out if something goes wrong.
              People can remotely participate in the deployment, while we will talk about common commands, AI should be as autonomous as possible.

              I think flights of this kind are so far from the future, as long as there is no engine or power source. And it's not a fact that they will, given that we consume resources quickly, and it smells fried and everything goes to a big war (((.
  39. 0
    14 August 2021 21: 43
    Quote: askovvladimir70vladimir
    ... I am personally sure that in the future we will overcome the gravity of the earth with the help of aeronautical systems, but now we are going to the wrong steppe, forgetting that “Hindenburg had a carrying capacity of 160 tons, and Japanese stratospheric balloons rose to a height almost 60 km, i.e. slightly below the height of the separation of the first stage of "Saturn-5"
    so it is necessary not only to rise to this height, but to move horizontally with the first cosmic speed. What about airships?
  40. +2
    14 August 2021 23: 07
    Great article.
    Thanks, Author!
    1. 0
      19 August 2021 19: 00
      Quote: WayKhe Thuo
      Great article.
      Thanks, Author!

      Can you find out in more detail why she is beautiful? A kind of euphoria about this missile. I am sure that when the Shuttles were launched, about the same articles were published in the West.
      Without analyzing deeply, just a couple of remarks
      1. The shuttles were also a revolution and were completely different from all the previous ones. And the same expectations - a lot of launches, naturally safe, and, as a result, a ridiculous price for launching cargo into orbit. As a result, it turned out exactly the opposite.
      2. Without delving into the analysis, etc., but simply being guided by common sense: where will so many cargoes come from, for which a 100-ton rocket is needed. Sum up all the loads put into orbit for the year, cry. In 2020, there were 114 space launches, without going too far into the jungle, I think that the average weight put into orbit by one rocket did not exceed 10 tons. Okay, even 15, a total of 1000-1500 tons, that is, 10-15 100-ton rockets, or about one launch per month. How then can there be a launch price of $ 100 per 1kg? But that's not all: at least half of the launches could not have been carried out with the help of such huge rockets - manned ships, some kind of separate satellites, etc. In total, 5-6 launches per year, that is, we come to the same place where the Shuttles came
      This rocket makes sense only if serious exploration of the moon is real. In the next couple of decades, this is unrealistic in principle. Hence, there are few launches and the high cost of launching into orbit. And we still do not know anything about the reliability of this rocket.
      1. 0
        6 September 2021 20: 08
        where will so many cargoes come from
        Only LEO satellite systems, if we consider what is already planned (tens of thousands of satellites), will require dozens of annual launches of Starships to simply maintain the constellation.
        In addition, Musk (or Shotwell, I don't remember) already said somewhere that the same Starlinks in the future can make platforms, allowing other firms to use them to accommodate their load. Do you want to put your load on Starlink (or immediately a group), say, a camera and something else for remote sensing tasks? You can agree. And with your "box" in orbit, Starlink will provide you with an "online" connection. Nowadays, not only the withdrawal of satellites, but the organization of communication with them is worth a lot. This is especially expensive if you need constant access. The Starlink system will have permanent network access from Earth "inside". Just pay the rent ...
        This will increase the mass of satellites, and their dimensions and dimensions of the Starship will not be superfluous.
        1. 0
          5 October 2021 22: 47
          Only LEO satellite systems, if we consider what is already planned (tens of thousands of satellites), will require dozens of annual launches of Starships to simply maintain the constellation.

          I believe that it is impossible to launch a lot of satellites at a time, they fly in different orbits and fly with a time difference. I don't know how much, but I think 100 tons is a bit too much, given that the mass of these satellites is small, a couple of hundred kg
          And then dozens of launches a year is about nothing. I don’t remember exactly, but we were talking about 1 launches a year in order for the price to become the same as Musk is talking about. Let me remind you that the Shuttles wanted to launch 2 units per month, but actually launched 3-4 per year, which led to a launch cost of 1 billion.
          And yet, you need permission to launch satellites. When there are too many of them and collisions or interference with other satellites begin, then their number will be limited.
          Realistically, Starship launches in terms of the number of launches per year equal to the total number of launches in the world, this is a very optimistic figure. In 2019, there were 102 launches, in 2020 - 114.
          I guess half of this is all that Starship can count on in about 20 years
          PS And yes, she still has to fly. And not empty.
          1. 0
            9 October 2021 22: 36
            we were talking about 1 launches per year in order for the price to become the same as Musk is talking about
            I have never heard of such a figure anywhere. In general, no one can talk about the cost of both the Falcon 9 and the planned Starship except SpaceX. Moreover, even SpaceX can only talk about Falcon 9. The only indirect sign that its reusability is objectively beneficial to them is that they strive to use it as much as possible.
            If it weren’t profitable, it wouldn’t be used.
            There is no point in discussing the cost of Starship at all now. The project is still in development, the design has already been changed several times, and obviously these are not the last iterations, and how much it will cost (exactly, not tentatively) as a result, is unlikely to be known in SpaceX itself. And, I think, even after it starts flying, as in the story with the Falcon 9, we will have a long process of changing the design after the start of operation. Musk loves it.
            So now we can't talk about the price of Starship at all.
            you need permission to launch satellites
            You need permission not for launches, but for an orbital position. Collisions in orbits that Musk plans to use (now they have 550, for future, massive groups they plan to drop to 350) will not harm anything. Because at such altitudes the atmosphere is so strong that the debris cloud will very quickly, within a few months, go out of orbit and burn up, there will be no Kessler effect.
            Here, where the collision occurs at high altitudes, there, yes - debris as a problem for a very long time. At altitudes of a thousand kilometers or more, if a collision occurs, the debris cloud will fly for centuries.
            1. 0
              19 October 2021 22: 45
              Quote: Venya Selnikov
              I have never heard of such a figure anywhere.

              Into orbit until mid-2020 and three flights a day on one rocket: Elon Musk spoke about the plans of the Starship project.
              September 2019
              You need permission not for launches, but for an orbital position.

              Could be so. Only for launches, permission is also required
  41. 0
    15 August 2021 10: 26
    The author, and where does the vaccine? Are you also working out the party line?
    1. 0
      16 August 2021 09: 50
      Quote: Novosibirsk
      The author, and where does the vaccine? Are you also working out the party line?


      I do not work for the party, but I am sure of the usefulness of vaccinations and the need to do them. And I talked with competent people in this area. But the further from the competence, the more I heard delirium and obscurantism, and from people who, in principle, cannot be called fools. Therefore, you will excuse me, but I consider it my duty to fight obscurantism.
      1. 0
        19 August 2021 18: 44
        Quote: AVM
        Quote: Novosibirsk
        The author, and where does the vaccine? Are you also working out the party line?


        I do not work for the party, but I am sure of the usefulness of vaccinations and the need to do them. And I talked with competent people in this area. But the further from the competence, the more I heard delirium and obscurantism, and from people who, in principle, cannot be called fools. Therefore, you will excuse me, but I consider it my duty to fight obscurantism.

        I am also confident in the usefulness of vaccinations. But what about statistics, which says that Pfizer and Modern give an order of magnitude more deaths than conventional vaccinations against other diseases? Maybe the technology has not yet been worked out, even if they are experimenting on animals, as before.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          1 October 2021 06: 43
          Quote: mister-red
          I am also confident in the usefulness of vaccinations. But what about statistics, which says that Pfizer and Modern give an order of magnitude more deaths than conventional vaccinations against other diseases? Maybe the technology has not yet been worked out, even if they are experimenting on animals, as before.


          What are "routine" vaccinations? They are very different. Even very old and used ones. For example, the DPT vaccine for children is also very aggressive, but it is still given.

          Besides, statistics are a crafty thing. If we recognize the inevitability of coronavirus infection, and let's say we vaccinated 100% of the population, then 0,01-0,1% will die from the side of the vaccine, whereas if we did not vaccinate 100%, then 1-5% of the population will die from the corona, which is better ?

          Refusal to vaccinate is an illusion - it is I who will not get sick, it is I who will easily bear the disease. As a result, they get sick and get sick seriously. Or they die. And a lot of people die from the crown. And not only the elderly.

          after vaccination, you just need to be more careful, follow the recommendations of doctors.
          1. +1
            5 October 2021 22: 21
            Refusal to vaccinate is an illusion - it is I who will not get sick, it is I who will easily bear the disease. As a result, they get sick and get sick seriously. Or they die. And a lot of people die from the crown. And not only the elderly.
            after vaccination, you just need to be more careful, follow the recommendations of doctors.

            I was sick, my wife was sick. My wife has about a severe flu, I have pneumonia.
            But we were vaccinated, my wife got the second vaccine today, and I am tomorrow. And if someone had told me at the beginning of the year that I would be vaccinated with the Chinese vaccine, he would never have believed it. However, we do not have a Sputnik, there is no faith in Pfizer, Joonson and Zeneka, the Chinese are left. after all, they seem to have coped with the pandemic.
      2. 0
        30 September 2021 23: 13
        And who is competent people? Therapists? Or else immunologists, who all at once (unbought) repeat over and over again that they experience vaccinations for at least 3-5 years, especially when it comes to humans. So don't flatter yourself. We have all read and listened to many people during these 1.5 years. And while it is more believed by those who do not advise to rush. I would not be surprised if people like you drown for injecting children. After all, that's what competent people say
  42. -1
    15 August 2021 11: 30
    Remains hoping for Ivan Ivanitch Smith, a simple rocket assembler ... And his extra nut in the engine ...
  43. -4
    15 August 2021 16: 12
    The article is a bold minus. So where are the breakthrough technologies? An advertisement for American exclusivity. The article is complete rubbish.
  44. 0
    15 August 2021 16: 37
    First, you need to dismiss the chief balabol Dima Rogozin in disgrace, giving him a medal in the form of a trampoline. and it is rightly said: you have to start something with some sense. this applies not only to space, but also to any development in general. What can I say when there is not even an ideology in the country?
    1. 0
      16 August 2021 15: 15
      Yes, you at least put someone there as a manager - there will not be more money for the space sector than they will allocate. Roskosmos is rich in what, and that's 170-200 billion rubles a year, and that's what I'm happy about.
      1. 0
        16 August 2021 17: 50
        the main thing is how to master these means. can be more and do not single out, because there is no worthy idea.
  45. 0
    15 August 2021 22: 12
    So, where is the author's revolution in space?
    And if the cargo will be delivered to the reference orbit, and then transported by a nuclear tug.
    The author, it seems, is blinded by the achievements in space in America and China, and is not aware of what is planned in Russia.
    1. -3
      15 August 2021 22: 54
      Quote: Romanov Petr Ivanovich
      So, where is the author's revolution in space?
      And if the cargo will be delivered to the reference orbit, and then transported by a nuclear tug.
      The author, it seems, is blinded by the achievements in space in America and China, and is not aware of what is planned in Russia.


      Aware. But in any case, the PN must be taken out to LEO, and cheaply, otherwise the nuclear tug will have nothing to carry.
      1. +1
        16 August 2021 15: 19
        The nucleon is created primarily to test technical solutions when creating a space nuclear power propulsion system, of course, it will not be possible to fly on it quickly, but long-term research is quite realistic. For fast flights, you need NLRE LPRE, three-component vacuum LPRE.
  46. +1
    15 August 2021 23: 06
    Quote: Saxahorse
    The single-hull, fully reusable rocket still has a chance to compete with Musk's rockets.

    But I don’t agree! What scares the separation of steps, given the conditions of complete and cheap reusability? Now this is how container transportation works: they pick up a container by truck, load it onto a ship1, then at the transshipment port they reload it onto a ship2, which goes to the final port, there again to a truck and, finally, to a warehouse. No one is worried about the number of cargo carriers, since it is more profitable.

    With the development of technologies and, most importantly, the massiveness of launches, the separation of steps is an economically profitable sharing, for which the future and which we are already seeing in the form of car sharing, scooter sharing, etc.

    Why carry ballast with you when you can sit down and buckle the booster in place? How to change the battery.
    1. +1
      17 August 2021 00: 48
      Quote: Proctologist
      Why carry ballast with you when you can sit down and buckle the booster in place? How to change the battery

      Each block has a stand engine, its own body, its own tanks, its own control and landing system. All this is extra weight that needs to be dragged up and down in addition to the payload and the resource of the nodes that will be spent is also not free. The single-hull missile minimizes all external costs.
      1. +2
        17 August 2021 20: 02
        Alas, the cost of the SSTO (Single Stage Orbiter) scheme is a paltry payload. Musk said that his Starship in a single-stage version (one second stage) would be able to reach orbit, but ... empty. Instead of 100 tons of payload in a two-stage version.

        The scheme is unusual for us - not just "throw" the accelerating stage, but also send it to the wrong place where it started from, but these are the laws of physics. There is a separate launch pad, a separate landing pad for the upper stage and, separately, another landing pad for the second stage. Yes, unusual and unlike an airplane.
  47. +1
    16 August 2021 13: 50
    The author is greatly mistaken about the capabilities of the space constellation against the ground one. For some reason it seems to him that it is immeasurably easier to beat down than up, and, on this basis, he declares that everything is lost.
    To understand this issue, it is enough just to remember the history of the confrontation between aviation and air defense. At the beginning of history, it seemed that everything was bad for the ground forces, and even this happened more than once, until they took seriously countering aviation. Now aviation is hiding in every possible way from air defense and is switching to unmanned vehicles in order to reduce the damage. But aviation is easier than satellites - it, unlike them, may not fly if the enemy has strong air defense. And what about the companions?
    The ground constellation against the satellite will ALWAYS be more powerful energetically, respectively, the arrival of directed energy weapons (and they have already begun) will greatly reduce the role of the space constellation in the war. There will be no question of withdrawing weapons of destruction into space, they will simply be burned at distant approaches, there is no point in straining. Threatening the Limitrophes with conventional bombs from space, as the Americans are now doing with the help of aviation, is simply ridiculous. There will be reconnaissance and pinpoint operations from under the tishka.
    So the author greatly exaggerated the role of the space group in future wars.
    1. +1
      16 August 2021 18: 28
      Even now, the S-500 operates at an altitude of up to 200 km. And if you make a specialized anti-satellite warhead for it, like a shotgun, firing a multi-disperse swarm of damaging elements in the right direction, which will no longer be slowed down in a vacuum, then you can get a satellite at any height. The trajectory and speed of the satellite are known; it is not a problem to accurately calculate the "meeting point". It turns out that one rocket - one satellite.
    2. +2
      17 August 2021 01: 00
      Quote: Conjurer
      Ground constellation against satellite will ALWAYS be more powerful energetically

      This is a misconception. There is such a value, power. Means the cost of work or energy per unit of time. So aviation allows you to stretch this pleasure by lifting the load upwards, which means that the combat load, which is gradually raised to a decent height, will be much greater than the one that needs to be quickly raised by the air defense missile. This means that a gliding bomb or missile will always have a greater range or power than an anti-missile. Attacking from above is always energetically more advantageous.
      1. +1
        17 August 2021 07: 41
        Quote: Saxahorse
        ... Attacking from above is always energetically more advantageous.


        Absolutely right. If we talk about the concept of "dominant height", then the cosmos is the most "dominant" of all. The gravity well is always on the side of those on top.

        You can also say that raising something "in bulk" is always more effective, i.e. it will be more effective to launch many military "toys" into orbit with a large launch vehicle than to get these "toys" out of there with separate rockets.
    3. +1
      17 August 2021 07: 53
      Quote: Conjurer

      ...
      To understand this issue, it is enough just to remember the history of the confrontation between aviation and air defense. At the beginning of history, it seemed that everything was bad for the ground forces, and even this happened more than once, until they took seriously countering aviation. Now aviation is hiding in every possible way from air defense and is switching to unmanned vehicles in order to reduce damage ...


      Aviation invariably dominates air defense, that it hides - this is normal, but in all conflicts, passive air defense lost to aviation.

      When the enemy is dominant in the air, ground forces simply cannot concentrate forces. In general, it will be impossible to create a more or less large grouping, their destiny is only partisan war.

      Quote: Conjurer
      But aviation is easier than satellites - it, unlike them, may not fly if the enemy has strong air defense. And what about the companions?


      The satellites do not stand still, but move with great speed. In the future, they will be more and more active - changing the orbit, evading. And in the future, it will generally be maneuvering platforms, at least something like an American unmanned shuttle.

      Quote: Conjurer
      The ground constellation against the satellite will ALWAYS be more powerful energetically, respectively, the arrival of directed energy weapons (and they have already begun) will greatly reduce the role of the space constellation in the war.


      Directed energy weapons - laser and beam will not do anything from the surface to objects in space. The atmosphere interferes with Puchkov, and the easiest way to defend against a laser in space is.

      Quote: Conjurer
      There will be no question of the withdrawal of weapons of destruction into space, they will simply be burned at distant approaches, there is no point in straining.


      Who will “burn” him and how? Even in spite of all the tricks, an early warning system, a huge number of telescopes of all types, people still blink rather large stones, such as the Chelyabinsk meteorite. What if it was a warhead? Camouflage and maneuver in space is a separate, interesting topic, and we will definitely return to it.
      1. 0
        18 August 2021 13: 22
        I understand that you do not want to analyze the current trends in the development of aviation and make a forecast, so you rely on not even the current, but the past state of affairs - about 20 years ago. Manned aircraft are already clearly discounted - the military speaks about this in plain text and even writes on VO to everyone and everything. It's hard not to notice, you can only ignore it. And there is an obvious reason for this trend, it is also difficult not to notice, it can only be ignored, declaring that aviation is our everything.
        With regard to energy. Directed energy weapons are not limited to laser and proton (if that's what you mean). You can send e-mag radiation, which is not interfered with by the atmosphere, but the satellite equipment burns perfectly, you can direct particles that easily penetrate the atmosphere, but the crystals of microcircuits at the same time quickly degrade to complete disrepair. And it is energy that is needed here - that is, a relatively long exposure to a high-power beam. In this matter, the earth will always be out of competition with space. She here acts as a projectile, and space remains the role of armor.
        1. 0
          20 August 2021 07: 57
          Quote: Conjurer
          ...
          With regard to energy. Directed energy weapons are not limited to laser and proton (if that's what you mean). You can send e-mag radiation, which is not interfered with by the atmosphere, but the satellite equipment burns perfectly, you can direct particles that easily penetrate the atmosphere, but the crystals of microcircuits at the same time quickly degrade to complete disrepair. And it is energy that is needed here - that is, a relatively long exposure to a high-power beam.


          I'm afraid I don't quite understand. What kind of EM radiation is meant?

          A laser is also EM radiation in the optical range.

          X-ray? Yes, it would be a breakthrough instrument, but so far X-ray lasers are only at the beginning of their journey - huge dimensions, scanty efficiency, 30-50 years before the appearance of working products. But even they will have limitations, and especially for space purposes, where attention is paid to protection from ionizing radiation. There is no point in even talking about gamma radiation, we do not know how to focus it.

          You can't focus a microwave one too much, so you won't be able to shoot down anything from orbit with combat masers.

          Quote: Conjurer
          In this matter, the earth will always be out of competition with space. She here acts as a projectile, and space remains the role of armor.
          1. 0
            23 August 2021 12: 41
            It is not necessary to shoot down, it is enough to disable the control equipment and the satellite will not participate in the war. And you can remove from orbit after the war.
            Radiation penetrating through the atmosphere has several wavelength ranges, each with its own characteristics, but the essence is clear - the impact on the conductive elements of the equipment of the object in order to create unacceptable voltage levels on them or heating (if it is closed / conditionally closed after a breakdown / circuit). Technical problems of aiming, focusing, and holding are being solved at the present time. That is, their solution is a matter of time.
            With particles, the essence is also clear - damage to the crystal base of the control elements. And these particles are widely known and, even, the necessary doses have long been calculated in the design of satellites. There is a question of getting a directed flow, but not that it is not solvable. It just takes more time.
  48. 0
    17 August 2021 13: 34
    In my opinion, these are all fantasies - soap bubbles.
    it is necessary to develop rocket engines on other principles. Which are not yet ...
  49. +1
    17 August 2021 15: 18
    Mask is YOUNG! It is a fact!
  50. 0
    17 August 2021 23: 22
    I wonder how SpaceX is going to land its rocket (not a spaceplane!) With 60 tons of cargo?
    Vertical landing will not work - it will not be an empty shell like it is now! ..
  51. -1
    18 August 2021 18: 50
    The mask's coil won't fly into space, it will crash
  52. The comment was deleted.
  53. 0
    19 August 2021 16: 02
    "When flying from New York to Tokyo via Earth's orbit, the flight time will be about 90 minutes."
    What is your evidence???
  54. +2
    20 August 2021 13: 08
    It’s not often that you come across enthusiastic advertising materials from American companies, written as if they were carbon copies, about the great (what’s up, revolutionary) achievements of America. And the USSR and Russia are, of course, screwed. And we lost the race, and we fly on rusty Soyuzs at wild prices. But it’s bad luck - the USSR did not announce a manned lunar program and was not officially involved in anything like that, but meanwhile it was the first in history to begin exploring the planets with automatic vehicles. No one ever flies to the moon, and our pioneer program is now accepted everywhere as a working one. As for the successes of the capitalist labor strikers, I would not call their competitive games, including discounts, a revolution, especially since they sell their services to their state, and a very corrupt one at that. On the topic - Bezos' lawsuit suspended NASA's deal with Musk. In general, the material seems to have been prepared somewhere on Square. And the price is a penny.
    1. 0
      21 August 2021 18: 21
      Quote: ont65
      It’s not often that you come across enthusiastic advertising materials from American companies, written as if they were carbon copies, about the great (what’s up, revolutionary) achievements of America.


      Can you hint at what it was copied from?

      Quote: ont65
      And the USSR and Russia are, of course, screwed. And we lost the race, and we fly on rusty Soyuzs at wild prices.


      The USSR was not in the ass, and Russia, in terms of space, is rushing there. Although I really want to be optimistic.

      Quote: ont65
      But bad luck - the USSR did not announce a manned lunar program and was not officially involved in anything like that,


      The USSR never declared anything at all; they even tried not to mention tragedies; they reported on what had already been done. Because then a statement was a responsibility. Declared it, didn’t do it - there will be organizational conclusions, heads will roll, maybe in the literal sense. And now you can crow as much as you want about the Eagles, Federations, Yeniseis - but you didn’t, so what, it’s not scary, we’ll promise something else.

      Quote: ont65
      and meanwhile he was the first in history to begin to explore the planets with automatic devices. No one ever flies to the moon, and our pioneer program is now accepted everywhere as a working one.


      "Our Pioneer" - where is it now? What does the USSR have to do with it? Even the same Musk never denied that he relies on the experience of previous generations, both American and ours, and treats them with respect. Now what? Maybe stop pointing fingers at the USSR?

      Quote: ont65
      As for the successes of the capitalist labor strikers, I would not call their competitive games, including discounts, a revolution, especially since they sell their services to their state, and a very corrupt one at that.


      Well, it’s no more corrupt than ours. They often rip off other countries, but in our country they milk their own.

      Quote: ont65
      On the topic - Bezos' lawsuit suspended NASA's deal with Musk.


      He didn't stop anything. Previously, Blue Origin complained to the US Government Accountability Office, but in July it sided with NASA and SpaceX. And he'll win the lawsuit.

      Quote: ont65
      In general, the material seems to have been prepared somewhere on Square. And the price is a penny.


      Yeah, that’s where I wrote it, under the rubbish of lard and vodka. Of course, it won’t suit the jingoistic patriots.
      1. 0
        22 August 2021 14: 31
        I am for objectivity in the presentation of material, and not for offense. To denigrate one’s own and extol someone else’s without having anything to do with one or the other is a position and nothing more. When Soyuz and Apollo were docking in orbit, for some reason no one poked the Americans in the nose why they launched not the orbital version of the ship, but the lunar one. But there was no other, and there was no other carrier. It’s a shame, but they don’t care. And don't worry. The Russian Federation does not have records on its mind, but plans for the future of the industry. The main thing is that they exist and the industry itself exists despite an extremely limited budget. This is reality, and ours, uninvented and not from the wishes built on Hollywood thrillers. The Americans will do first-rate advertising for themselves even without you.
  55. +1
    21 August 2021 10: 02
    And then Ostap got carried away..... Author, answer one question, if the rich states had such a toy as the Saturn 5, then what’s stopping you from bringing the drawings from the archive, giving them to the workshop and eventually launching the rocket? But no, year after year they develop different superheavys, spending a lot of money on R&D. And they don’t have a superheavy yet.....
    1. 0
      21 August 2021 18: 09
      Quote: ZAV69
      And then Ostap got carried away..... Author, answer one question, if the rich states had such a toy as the Saturn 5, then what’s stopping you from bringing the drawings from the archive, giving them to the workshop and eventually launching the rocket? But no, year after year they develop different superheavys, spending a lot of money on R&D. And they don’t have a superheavy yet.....


      Because you don’t understand anything about the production of complex products. Do you have any idea how many components are included in a rocket like Suturn-5? How many contractors are there, most of whom are no longer there? That drawings by themselves do not solve anything; technological documentation is also needed. Do you know what rigging is? That it must be combined with a certain type of equipment that no longer exists?

      For the reincarnation of Saturn 5, it will be necessary to restore all production chains of that time.

      They don’t have it, they don’t have it... And what do we have? Especially new ones? For some reason, we are in no hurry to restore Energy, although some technologies from it are still used now, because they understand that it is unrealistically difficult and expensive. But Energia is much closer in technology to today than Saturn-5.
      1. -1
        21 August 2021 22: 03
        Technological documentation is made according to the design documentation. Not being able to repeat your product 50 years ago.... All documentation of products of this level is duplicated several times and stored in several independent archives. Now, if you want, it’s easy to get all the documentation for the “tin Lizzie”; even for Retvizan and Varyag, Crump has all the documentation intact. You, dear one, are driving a blizzard in this case; at today’s technological level, the old technical process cannot be restored only in one case: there was nothing, the whole Saturn 5 is a complete fraud.
        1. 0
          21 August 2021 23: 48
          Quote: ZAV69
          Technological documentation is made according to the design documentation. Not being able to repeat your product 50 years ago.... All documentation of products of this level is duplicated several times and stored in several independent archives. Now, if you want, it’s easy to get all the documentation for the “tin Lizzie”; even for Retvizan and Varyag, Crump has all the documentation intact. You, dear one, are driving a blizzard in this case; at today’s technological level, the old technical process cannot be restored only in one case: there was nothing, the whole Saturn 5 is a complete fraud.


          You are absolutely far from producing anything. Design documentation is made taking into account available technologies. Otherwise, the designer will draw an ideal part that is impossible to make. In such a huge rocket there are a lot of elements that may no longer be produced. Starting from the on-board computer, and ending with some kind of gaskets.

          Changing something means changing the entire structure. This makes no sense, so they make a completely new one. And they will. The same SLS will fly with a 99% probability. But it has no prospects - its cost will be unrealistic, since conceptually it is the same Saturn 5.

          If you know how to make dishes from transparent porcelain, this does not mean that you can repeat a jug made of red clay from the times of Mesopotamia. People still argue about how the pyramids were built. Fortunately, they are still standing, they were not blown up by any Muslim fanatics, otherwise it would be absolutely impossible for people like you to prove their existence, even if they were blown up 5-10 years ago. It’s the same with the American lunar program.
          1. -1
            22 August 2021 09: 37
            The fact that I now have nothing to do with production does not mean that I never had. He worked as a technologist and designer. And I have secondary technical and higher education with a degree in mechanical engineering technology, so tell tales about Chinese porcelain to someone else. A launch vehicle is a mechanical engineering product. You will also say that we will not be able to repeat Cherepanov’s locomotive.
            The Saturn did not have any on-board computer, and even if there was some kind of controller on field-effect transistors, it would not be a problem to replace it with modern hardware.
            The main thing in a rocket is the parameters of the outflow of the working fluid and not all sorts of tricks. If there was a 100% correct calculation of combustion, calculation of pumps and working drawings of chambers, pumps and housing, then all this on a modern production base is repeated once and twice and there is no need to sink billions of dollars into new developments. And the fact that they are trying to do it from scratch over and over again proves that they simply do not have 100% working and proven solutions.
            1. 0
              23 August 2021 07: 46
              Quote: ZAV69
              ... A launch vehicle is a mechanical engineering product. You will also say that we will not be able to repeat Cherepanov’s locomotive.


              In the same form in which it was? Perhaps not. Or it will be much more expensive than taking it from the TTK of that time to develop a new locomotive (namely a steam locomotive).

              We (people) cannot repeat many things that we built before. For example, now no country in the world will be able to build a battleship like Iowa - it will have to be developed anew. But for some reason no one denies the reality of Iowa. Why not pick up a conspiracy theory that Iowa never went to sea, that these are all Hollywood films?

              Quote: ZAV69
              The Saturn did not have any on-board computer, and even if there was some kind of controller on field-effect transistors, it would not be a problem to replace it with modern hardware.
              The main thing in a rocket is the parameters of the outflow of the working fluid and not all sorts of tricks. If there was a 100% correct calculation of combustion, calculation of pumps and working drawings of chambers, pumps and housing, then all this on a modern production base is repeated once and twice and there is no need to sink billions of dollars into new developments. And the fact that they are trying to do it from scratch over and over again proves that they simply do not have 100% working and proven solutions.


              There are no “fakes” in RN. There, any screw can turn a multi-billion dollar carrier into a giant firecracker.

              Probably dozens or hundreds of articles have already been written about the problems of resuming production of the Saturn 5 specifically, for example here:
              https://habr.com/ru/post/388699/

              and here:
              https://topwar.ru/88835-ochevidnye-veschi-o-lunnoy-afere.html
  56. -1
    4 September 2021 00: 07
    Quote: Author
    Save this photo, it may well become....

    belay
    obviously, the author believes in Saint Apollonius and the shepherd of the headless Nasu, with the acolyte of Nasu Mask, although the cunning Mask, unlike the gullible vaxers who generate nonsense about the safety of vaccinations, is not going to be vaccinated with the slurrylaughing
    and all our pretentious programs were covered with a copper basin - from “Constellation” and Artemis (“Lunar Program”), to the shameful experiment on the collision of a probe with the Moon, what was it worthlaughing
  57. The comment was deleted.
  58. The comment was deleted.
  59. 0
    17 October 2021 14: 41
    The question immediately arises to the very basics: did the Union really need space? Wouldn't it be better to direct those huge funds to much more pressing problems? After all, we all understand that both the first satellite and the first person are just PR, and in the economic sense - a pure expense. I think that the implementation of Stalin’s plan for the transformation of nature in full, preventing the development of virgin lands (dust storms are not needed) and draining the Aral Sea would be much more useful for the country than space, which is very distant (in the most literal sense) from the real needs of the people. And it would have been really good to mothball the open oil seas of Siberia around the same years in order to prevent Dutch disease. And finally tackle the most important and difficult task - the economic reform of the country. Dissolution of collective farms (true, not declarative abolition of serfdom). Abolition of humiliating registration (serfdom in cities), that is, complete freedom of movement within the country. Private land ownership and purchasing of products at real market prices so that agriculture finally becomes profitable, that is, the end of shortages. True, economic measures immediately required political continuation, which means that many respected people will have to leave power. In fact, this is Perestroika, but correct, systematic and consistent, and not chaotic throwing. And carried out at the right time, and not when the country was already doomed.
  60. The comment was deleted.
  61. 0
    6 November 2021 07: 53
    In short, God bless Omeryka, and Russia? AU! laughing
  62. 0
    14 December 2021 21: 00
    "Energia" was generally our most advanced rocket in terms of the ratio of the mass of the product to the mass of the launched load. Refusal to improve and develop this direction was already a stake in the heart of our advanced (then) space and one of the first signs of its conservation and degradation. It was a tragedy..
    As for Musk’s epic plans for thousands of launches per year, well, the ozone layer clearly does not approve of this, but even for environmental reasons, the subordinal transportation of people between continents is pure nonsense. No matter how perfect a rocket is, it’s thousands of tons of fuel under its tail, one spectacular “BABAAH!” will be enough to sober up those who want to fly with such a breeze. Civil aviation is one thing, and this is quite another. Now Musk is inspired by his successes and is making plans with all his might, including projects, forging what they say while it’s hot. But the market capacity is the market capacity - on a global scale, there are already enough operators in this field who will cling to national protectionism, it will not matter what Musk’s prices will be, they will launch with their own funds for non-economic reasons. America and partly the EU will be available to Musk and Co. + non-systemic commercial orders. In America, he will have to experience competitive pressure, including, yes, the same protectionism and the work of the lobby of NASA and other giants “in share.” The EU has its own fish, smaller ones, the same “Arian”, some launches will be carried out on their own for economic reasons.
    Also, the expansion of launches will lead to opposition from environmentalists, who are quite aggressively promoting their views. Environmental trends in the world are quite strong and are gaining momentum - just look at this EU green movement and the intensely inflated Greta Thunberg. It is also worth noting that for numerous launches of super heavyweights, an absolutely wild amount of fuel would be required, which would need to be delivered in these wild volumes, stored, produced, etc. All this is also ecology in every sense.
    So everything will probably develop much more smoothly and within the boundaries of existing trends in PU launches. Considering the increasing pressure on the US economy from the PRC, it is likely that the US scientific program in space is also not expected to expand significantly.

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev Lev; Ponomarev Ilya; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; Mikhail Kasyanov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"