Mongol nomadic empire. How and why

333
Mongol nomadic empire. How and why
Miniature from the "Collection of Chronicles" ("Jami at-tavarih") Iran. XIV century. Berlin.

In this article I will talk about modern scientific views, based on political science and anthropological theories, explaining how the unification of the Mongol tribes under the leadership of Genghis Khan could have happened and how the Mongols achieved such results.

The article was written as part of a cycle devoted to the situation in China on the eve of the Mongol invasion and during its conquest.



How did the nomadic empire come about?


Nomadic empires, which seemed to outside observers, especially ambassadors from agricultural countries, powerful states that judged empires by charismatic and extravagant nomadic leaders, were in fact tribal confederations built on consensus and agreements.

A single Mongolian ulus, in the form of a state or an early form of state, could not exist until the end of the XNUMXth century. As soon as the death of the leader occurred, the union disintegrated, and its members migrated in search of more advantageous combinations. Even the ulus did not mean some kind of potestary association. Ulus or irgen is just a people, common people or tribe. It is people and only people that make up the ulus, everything else is derivative.

Ordinary members often simply could not exist in order not to get food from the outside, so they often initiated campaigns. Under Genghis Khan, up to 40% of the booty went exactly to ordinary soldiers, and what was captured was handed out clean.

The Mongolian ulus falls under the anthropological concept of chiefdom: there is inequality, the presence of disparate tribal groups, where one dominates with a leader, as well as inequality of members of the association.

Chiefdom is a socio-political organization, which includes either a thousand (simple chiefdom) or tens of thousands of members (complex chiefdom), the presence of a regional hierarchy of settlements, central government, theocratic hereditary leaders and nobility, where there is social inequality, but no state mechanisms of coercion and repression.

This is exactly what can be said about the Mongolian uluses of the late XII - early XIII centuries. At the same time, the leader can only act “for the good” of the whole community, and not in the name of personal interest. The more he acts in this direction, the more his "ulus" grows.
But if there is something from the state in this structure, then it is not a state as such.

The leaders did not have police and other state mechanisms of pressure and had to act in the interests of all, redistribute material values ​​and provide society ideologically. This rule is universal for both agricultural and nomadic societies. In this regard, Genghis Khan is a typical successful nomadic leader, cruel to enemies and generous, providing for his fellow tribesmen. He was no different from both his followers and successors, and from other nomadic ethnic groups. Such power can be called “consensual” or based on authority.

And it was in such conditions that the Mongols formed an empire.

Russian and Western historiography of the late XX - early XXI century believes that the cause of the emergence of nomadic empires (and not only the Mongolian one) was the greed and predatory nature of the steppe people, overpopulation of the steppe, climatic disasters, the need for material resources, the reluctance of farmers to trade with nomads, and finally, the intended they have the right to conquer the whole world from above (Fletcher J.). Western historiography also does not discount the personal factor and the charisma of the leaders (O. Pritzak).

Economy and structure of nomadic society


At the same time, the economic type of the nomad practically changed little and had the same character: as among the Scythians, as among the Huns, as among the Turks, and even among the Kalmyks, etc. and they could not influence the social structure.

The nomadic economy could not produce a surplus to support hierarchical formations not involved in production. Therefore, many researchers believe that nomads did not need a state (T. Barfield).

All economic activities were carried out within the clan, rarely reaching the tribal level. Livestock could not be accumulated indefinitely, the external environment strictly regulated this process, so it was more profitable to distribute the surplus (and not only the surplus) to poor relatives for grazing or for “gifts”, to enhance prestige and authority within the “gift” system, to increase the ulus ...

Any oppression, especially constant, caused migrations, and such a leader could wake up one day, finding himself alone in the bare steppe.

But the existence of a nomad exclusively within the framework of his economic system was impossible, an exchange with an agricultural society was required to obtain a different type of food, things that are completely absent from nomads.

It was not always possible to obtain these material values, since neighboring agricultural states sometimes directly interfered with this for various reasons (economic, fiscal, political).

But a nomadic society was at the same time a natural militarized formation: life itself made a warrior out of a nomad almost from birth. Each nomad spent his entire life in the saddle and hunting.

Conducting hostilities without a military organization is impossible. Therefore, some researchers came to the conclusion that the degree of centralization of nomads is directly proportional to the size of the neighboring agricultural civilization, which is part of the same regional system with them.

However, this still does not explain anything. The Mongols are just getting stronger when the newly formed state of "Jurchen robbers" was already experiencing an internal crisis, and even this formation itself can hardly be called a state.

At the same time, many researchers pay attention to the personality of Genghis Khan, as determining in this process. It is significant that Genghis Khan did not trust his relatives after the events of his childhood, when, after the death of his father, his relatives moved away from his yurt. And the squads do not exist under the tribal system, the clan is the leader's “squad”.


Below the wheel. Still from the film "Mongol" dir. S. Bodrov Sr.

It seems that the mechanism of chiefdom is in any case within the framework of the broader structure of the transition from the clan system to the neighboring-territorial community. Has there been a transition? Great question. On the other hand, it is precisely this that can explain the constant reproduction of nomadic "empires", since the process of transition from a clan society to a territorial community did not succeed.

Much can be written about the role of the founders of the "dynasties", and not all "chiefdoms", as noted by the researcher of the question N. N. Kradin, turn into potestary or early state structures.

It is important that it was in the image of Genghis Khan that not only the supreme power in the Mongol union was concentrated: let me remind you that the laws of "Yassy" were not adopted solely by the khan, but at a meeting of fellow tribesmen and with their approval.

He was also the bearer of the tradition, which, although it was sanctified by antiquity, developed in the steppe during the struggle, which was personally carried out by Genghis Khan himself. Despite the fact that he strictly followed his line of government, it was not the fruit of his authoritarian, "cannibalistic" aspirations, but the result of collective decisions.

The presence of advice with the commander does not negate the commander's right to give orders. And each member of the nomadic structure understood that it was the fulfillment of the order of the one-man leader that ensured success. This was not a society where the citizen-warrior had to be convinced of the need for discipline. Every little hunter knew how disobedience to the orders of his father on the hunt led to death or serious injury: unity of command in the hunt and war was spelled out in blood.

Therefore, historians call the nomadic hordes a ready army-people, where they began to shoot, gallop, hunt, and often fight from an early age, in contrast to agricultural societies.

Property and steppe


If the power of the farmers is based on the management of society in order to control and redistribute the surplus product, then the nomadic community does not have such management systems: there is nothing to control and distribute, there is nothing to save for a rainy day, there is no accumulation. Hence the ruinous campaigns against the farmers, which swept away everything, the psychology of the nomad demanded to live in the present day. Livestock could not be an object of accumulation, but its death affected a rich relative more than a poor one.

Therefore, the power of the nomads wore exclusively the external side, was aimed not at managing their society, but at contacts with external communities and countries, and took a complete form when a nomadic empire was formed, and power became, first of all, military. Farmers drew resources for wars from their society, by levying taxes and extortions, the steppe inhabitants did not know taxes, and sources for the war were obtained from outside.

The stability of nomadic empires directly depended on the ability of the leader to receive agricultural products and trophies - in wartime, as well as tributes and gifts - in peacetime.
Within the framework of the worldwide phenomenon of “gift,” the ability of the supreme leader to bestow and redistribute gifts was an essential function that had not only material properties, but also an ideological context: gift and luck went hand in hand. Redistribution was the most important function that attracted people to such a leader. And this is exactly how the young Genghis Khan appears in the "Collection of Chronicles", one might think that he remained a generous redistributor throughout his career.

The artistic image of Genghis Khan, which we know both from the famous novels of V. Yan, and also from modern films, as an insidious and formidable ruler and commander obscures the real political situation when a great leader was obliged to be a redistributor. However, even today myths are being born around the creation of modern successful projects, where the "fame" of the authors often hides, first of all, its redistribution function:

“This prince Temujin,” reports Rashid ad-Din, “takes off the clothes [on himself] and gives them back, dismounts from the horse on which he is sitting, and gives [it]. He is the kind of person who could take care of the region, take care of the army and keep the ulus well. "

As for the steppe dwellers, the very system of society contributed to this: what was seized from the farmers, at best, could simply be eaten. Silk and jewelry were used primarily to emphasize status, and slaves were not much different from livestock.

As noted by the writer V. Yan, Genghis Khan

"I was honest only with my Mongols, and looked at all other people like a hunter who plays the pipe, luring a goat to grab and make a kebab from it."

But it was the redistribution factor, along with combat successes, that contributed to the creation of the empire through the effect of scaling.


Clothes of the Mongol nobility. XIII century Museum stories Iran. Tehran.

After the victories of Genghis Khan, a huge force was formed in the steppe, consisting of eleven tumens. The existing nomadic association was completely unnecessary for life and struggle in the steppe, and the dissolution of the nukers and heroes was like death, further existence was possible only with external expansion.

If after the first victories over the Tangut empire of Xi Xia, the numerous Uyghur Khanate went to serve Genghis Khan, then during only the first stage of the war against the Jin empire, which was interrupted by a march to the west, an army was formed that was much superior to the Mongol army. Let's repeat after many researchers: an army of robbers and rapists, intended exclusively for military robbery.

The scaling effect began to work on the formation of a nomadic empire.

And it was in relation to these non-Mongolian troops that the most brutal methods of control and suppression of violations of military discipline were used.

This army moved with the Mongols to the west and increased significantly during the campaign there, and such an army could only be maintained through constant expansion.
The horde formed after the invasion at the borders of the Russian principalities was only ruled by the Mongol nobility and the Mongol prince, but consisted of Kipchaks, Polovtsy, etc., who lived in these steppes before the arrival of the Tatar-Mongols.

But while the conquests were going on, redistribution also existed, that is, in the potestary, pre-class structure of Mongolian society, even already burdened by the "empire", this function remained the most important. So, Ogedei and his son Guyuk, Mongke-khan, Khubilai continued the tradition, and in many ways surpassed Genghis Khan himself. However, he had something to give, so he said:

“Since at the approach of the hour of death [the treasures] do not bring any benefit, and it is impossible to return from the other world, we will keep our treasures in our hearts, and all that is in cash and that is prepared or [what else] will come will be given away citizens and needy, in order to glorify their good name. "

Udegei could not even understand the difference between bribes, which were so popular in the system of bureaucratic administration of the Sunn Empire, and gifts, gifts. “Gift” meant a reciprocal gift, however, this was not always necessary, and a bribe always implied certain actions on the part of the official who received it. And after a campaign in rich Central Asia, Iran and neighboring countries in Mongolia, it turned out that there was nothing to distribute, so they urgently started a war with the Golden Empire.

War and nomadic empire


The tactics of the Mongols, like other nomads, the same Huns, did not indulge their opponents with their openings, but exactly copied the system of hunting and rounding up animals. Everything just depended on the size of the enemy and the troops of the nomads. Thus, the Mongolian Khitan tribe hunted with 500 thousand horsemen.


Mongolian archer. Miniature of the beginning of the XIV century. Berlin.

All the Mongol invasions of the Jin empire took place according to the same tactical and sacred scheme: three wings, three columns, the same thing happened with the Song.

The first test of strength on the borderlands of the Xi Xia empire was carried out in the same way. At the same time, the balance of forces was not always taken into account. So in the first campaigns of the Mongols against Jin, they were often significantly inferior to the Jurchen troops. During this period, the Mongols had little idea of ​​the situation in the states of China, especially in other countries. Claims to conquer the world were so far only part of the ambitions of the Khan of Heaven, caused, among other things, by the libations of koumiss, and not a clear program.

When studying the victories of the Mongols, special attention was always paid to their tactics and weapons.

Over the past 20 years, in the reenactment and historical environment, the prevailing opinion has been that the Mongols were entirely armed with heavy weapons.

Of course, the archaeological finds of the rich burials of the Mongols, for example, such equipment that is kept in the Hermitage, seem to confirm this, contrary to written sources reporting that they were originally horse riders:

“Two or three bows, or at least one good one,” wrote Plano Carpini, “and three large quivers full of arrows, one ax and ropes to pull the implements ... The iron arrowheads are quite sharp and cut on both sides like a double-edged sword; and they always carry with their quiver files for sharpening arrows. The aforementioned iron tips have a sharp, one-finger long tail that is inserted into the wood. Their shield is made of willow or other rods, but we do not think that they wore it otherwise than in the camp and to protect the emperor and princes, and even then only at night. "

Originally the main weapons Mongols had a bow, it was used in war and hunting. Moreover, during the steppe wars, no evolution of this weapon took place, the war was fought with an equally armed enemy.

Researchers believe that the Mongols had a bow of extraordinary quality, comparing it to the English bow that brought success at the Battle of Cressy (1346). Its tension was 35 kg, and it sent an arrow to 230 m. The compound Mongolian bow had a tension of 40–70 kg (!) And an impact force of up to 320 m (Chambers, Cherikbaev, Hoang).

It seems to us that the Mongolian bow went through a certain evolution, and it coincided with the period of conquests. Such a bow could not have formed before the invasions of the agricultural zone began. Even the brief information we know about the use of bows in this zone indicates that the bow of the Tanguts was inferior to the bows of the Song Empire, and it took time for the Tanguts to achieve the highest quality.

The demand of the Mongols for the issuance of bowmakers from the Jin Empire, just testifies to the fact that they got acquainted with more advanced bows already during the invasions, both in the states of China and Central Asia. The famous Xia master of bows, Chan-ba-jin, was personally represented at the khan's court. A harsh warrior and defender of the steppe traditions, Subedei, according to Mongol law, wanted to destroy all the inhabitants of Kaifeng, the capital of the Golden Empire for many months of resistance. But it all ended with the issuance of archery masters, gunsmiths and goldsmiths, and the city was preserved.

For internecine wars in the steppe, superweapons were not required, there was parity in armament, but during the campaigns against Xi Xia and Jin, the Mongols not only got acquainted with more advanced bows, but also quickly began to capture them in the form of trophies and use them in battle. A similar situation was with the Arabs, who, during the period of expansion, reached the Iranian arsenals, which dramatically changed their military potential.

The presence of 60 arrows in each Mongol was dictated, most likely, not by the peculiarity of the battle, but by the sacred number "60". Based on the calculations carried out when firing with the rate of fire described in the sources, only every 4th arrow could reach the target. Thus, the Mongol attack: shelling from a bow with arrows and whistles, in modern terms, was more in the nature of a psychological war. However, the massive shelling of the riders attacking in waves could frighten even the staunch warriors.
And in tactical terms, the Mongolian commanders always ensured real or imaginary superiority in the number of troops during the battle: fear has big eyes. In any battle. What they failed, for example, in the battle with the Mamelukes at Ain Jalut in 1260, when they lost.

But, let us repeat once again, in the wars with the farmers, the Mongols achieved overwhelming superiority along the line of attack, which, by the way, we observe also from the side of the Tatars in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries in campaigns against Rus-Rusia.

During the period of conquests, we repeat, the scaling effect worked for their success. The scheme (for example, the war with the Jin empire) can be built in this way. First, the capture of small fortresses: either from a raid, or by betrayal, or starvation. Collecting large numbers of prisoners to siege a more serious city. The battle with the border army in order to destroy the field defenses for the subsequent looting of the surroundings.

As such actions are carried out, the involvement of collaborators and their armies to participate in the struggle against the empire.

Acquaintance with siege technologies, their application, along with terror.

And the constant effect of scaling, when troops and forces gather around the Mongolian center, at first comparable and then superior to the Mongolian ones. But the Mongolian core is rigid and unchanging.

Under Genghis Khan, this is a system of representatives, consisting of people close to him. After his death, his clan received power, which immediately led to the collapse of the conquered unity, and the unification of the steppe and farmers within the framework of a single territory of China led to the complete fall of the power of the nomads, who could not offer any more perfect system of government than the one that already was the empire of the Southern Song dynasty.

I am not a supporter of the opinion that the Mongols, within the framework of the vast conquered territory, created a "world-system" (F. Braudel), which contributed to the development of long-distance trade from Europe to China, the postal service, the exchange of goods and technologies (Kradin N.N.). Yes, it was, but it was not the key in this giant "nomadic" empire. With regard to Russia-Rusia, for example, we do not see anything of the kind. The system of "exo-exploitation" - "tribute without torture" overshadowed any Yamskaya service.

Returning to the question, why the Mongols could not create a real power, let's say that in the irrational and mythological representation of a person of this time, and the Mongols, from the point of view of the formation theory, were at the stage of transition from a tribal system to a territorial community, the idea of ​​an "empire "Did not correspond to our ideas, from the word at all. If Chinese or Western European witnesses tried to somehow explain their view of the "empire" of the Mongols, and, incidentally, the Persians and the Arabs, this does not mean that it was what it seemed to them. So, during the accession of Udegei Khan to the throne, not a Mongolian, but a Chinese imperial ceremony with kneeling was held, which the nomads did not have.

By empire, the nomads meant the slave or half-slave obedience of everyone who met on the way. The aim of the cattle breeder was to obtain prey, be it hunting or war, to simply provide for the family and food, and he went to this goal without hesitation - "exo-exploitation". Using the algorithms known to him: attack, shelling, deceiving flight, ambush, shelling again, pursuit and complete destruction of the enemy, as a competitor or as a hindrance to food or pleasure. Mongolian terror against the population from the same category: the destruction of unnecessary competitors in food and reproduction.


A rider in a leather scaled carapace and a pointed helmet with silk lining. The second rider is a lightly armed rifleman riding a Przewalski's horse. Rice. Angus McBride. Reconstruction ed. Osprey

In this case, there is no need to talk about any empire, or even more so a state in the full sense of the word.

The first khans completely sincerely could not understand why the state treasury was needed? If, as we wrote above, within the framework of the Mongolian society “gift” was the key moment of the relationship.

The wise Khitan Yeluyu Chutsai, "long beard", Chingiz's adviser, had to explain how profitable it was to tax the technologically advanced Song and Jin empire, rather than, as the representatives of the "military party" suggested, "kill everyone" and turn the Chinese fields into pastures. But the Mongols did not care much about the feasibility of taxes or the issues of reproduction and the life of their subjects. Let me remind you that only the Mongols were subjects, all the rest were "slaves". As in the case of the Russian “tribute to the poor,” they were simply interested in food and the more, the better, so tax collection was at the mercy of adventurers from the Near and Middle East.

Therefore, the statements that Russia became part of the "world empire" do not correspond to historical realities. Russia fell under the yoke of the steppe people, was forced to interact with them, nothing more.

With the reduction of the limits of military expansion, the robbery of all already plundered and the growth of natural combat losses, the incommensurability of the costs of the war and the income from the war, and this time coincided with the reign of Mongke (d. 1259), taxes and constant receipts begin to excite the Mongol elite. A classic symbiosis of nomads and farmers is formed: in the Far East, this was the empire of the Yuan dynasty. And for a hundred years it was followed by the disintegration of the nomadic empire, just as it happened with many of its predecessors, much smaller in scale.

But in the following articles we return to the Mongol conquests in China.

Sources and literature:

Bichurin N. Ya. Notes on Mongolia. Samara. 2010.
Ancient cultures of Mongolia, Baikal Siberia and North China: materials of the VII Intern. scientific. Conf .: in 2 volumes. Krasnoyarsk. 2016.
History of Russia, Russia and the East. SPb., 2002.
Kradin N. N. Nomads of Eurasia. Almaty. 2017.
Leah von Pal. History of the Mongol Empire: Before and After Genghis Khan. M., 2010.
Mongol Empire and the nomadic world. Sat. articles. Managing editors B. V. Bazarov, N. N. Kradin, T. D. Skrynnikova. Book 1. Ulan-Ude. 2004.
Mongol Empire and the nomadic world. Sat. articles. Managing editors B. V. Bazarov, N. N. Kradin, T. D. Skrynnikova. Book 3. Ulan-Ude. 2008.
Mongolica: To the 750th anniversary of the "Secret Legend". M., 1993.
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  1. +5
    7 August 2021 04: 21
    So far, everything is harmonious and logical.
    But "So, the Mongolian Khitan tribe hunted with 500 thousand horsemen." (C) seems outrageous.
    And 11 tumens is generally more than a million.
    1. +15
      7 August 2021 05: 11
      Quote: ee2100
      And 11 tumens is generally more than a million.

      Alexander will correct you a little. Tumen is 10 thousand, 11 tumens - 110 000 warriors. The numbers are impressive though.
      In Russia, then they operated on "thousand", and this is an order of magnitude less!
      1. -7
        7 August 2021 07: 50
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        In Russia, then they operated on "thousand", and this is an order of magnitude less!


        I never considered it necessary to answer you to your type of posts, there was no subject for discussion, but maybe you will answer.
        In Russia, before the Petrine reforms, the writing of numbers was in letters.
        -A with title 1
        -B with title 2
        -B with title 3 ...

        and so on
        ANY time, two, one, two, one hundred, two thousand In Russia there was no, so it comes out according to the logic of your OI. Those. According to your story, the inhabitants of Russia came to the bazaar / base / market and asked the seller: "but will you weigh me brother D with the title of measures of tomatoes and cucumbers."
        And the merchants made deals on your backstory something like this: "So Arkhipych take from you a ULA (431) with a title of measures of rye, and even a CPI (988) with a title of poods of oats, for A and a half with a title of a penny for a pound, hand over?"
        How to count? Counting with such casuistry is completely difficult.
        Yes, it never happened, because everywhere in the annals, when they did not list the pages of the invented chronicles, they wrote in Russian FORTY FORTY and other numbers in numerical pronunciation, as we say, then where did this opinion come from that before Peter the progressive Arabic digital notation and accordingly there was no pronunciation?
        Here you have a "tschi" ass, but no words.

        Thanks to the author of "History of PI" for the idea.
        1. -4
          7 August 2021 08: 55
          Quote: Bar1
          Thanks to the author of "History of PI" for the idea.

          Watching too ...
          You can never prove to a historian that he is wrong, that he invented all his evidence or uses the evidence of inventors like him. Because he is A PRIORI RIGHT! For he is a SCIENTIST !!!! And the alternative conclusions of many other researchers and even official historians who doubt the truth of the accepted chronology are worth nothing, because they are NOT SCIENTISTS !!
          Sober-minded people (especially techies) have long ago sorted out the impossibility and even the absurdity of the Mongol conquest from the point of view of logistics and opportunities, but the officials still have their own ... the Mongol conquest is impossible to explain. The absence of a pronounced genotype of the Mongols in the territory of conquered Russia and the field of Europe, questions of linguists about the spread of the Slavic language in the territories of the conquests of Batu in Europe. A completely different civilization kept another in fear for 300 years and did not leave well, absolutely no significant traces of its stay, except for the "proofs" of modern historians - this suggests that someone was lying very badly ...
          Personally, I have long ceased to believe in the official historical nonsense regarding the Mongol conquest. The real story, which many researchers are already digging into in the fields, mountains, in the basement of buried cities, is much more interesting than the inventions about nomads who, having abandoned everything on horseback, abandoned everything for thousands of kilometers in unusual climatic conditions and rushed to conquer the forest dwellers. RAVE!!!!!!!
          1. +19
            7 August 2021 09: 09
            I am ashamed to ask, since in your opinion there was no Mongol invasion and could not have been, then logically nothing happened. No Macedonian campaigns, no Hannibal, no Arab Caliphate, no Huns with Attila, isn't that logical?
            Why is the possibility of only a Mongol invasion denied? Why is no one trying to challenge Hannibal's crossing of the Alps, especially with elephants and camels?
            Why some could, while others supposedly not? Because some incomprehensible types of something there to someone "proved"?
            1. -6
              7 August 2021 09: 30
              The Mongol invasion covered up real events in Russia! When you look not only at the official nonsense, but also alternative ones (and what is called alternative that does not fit into the official version), then you understand (YOU UNDERSTAND!) That the official version is based on false knowledge (and is it knowledge?). You don't really know what happened 200 years ago, but you believe that there was 800. History is being rewritten right before our eyes, but are you sure that it was not rewritten 600, 400, 300 years ago ???
              Study carefully other options, and not just one, then it will become clear to you (if you still have not forgotten how to THINK) that there is no truth anywhere. So you believe what they say, not what you yourself see ...
              For the sake of interest, read at least that A. Tamansky, then you will understand HOW much the whole official history is absurd request hi
              I will give you a personal example. I have an ancient settlement in the city. So when they decided to excavate the foundation of the defensive tower, where, according to historians, it should be in order to make it part of the museum complex, but they found a completely different structure, then everything was buried back and for 15 years "there is no money" to establish the truth ... wink
              I have always urged and will urge not to BELIEVE what they say from one source, but to consider all the options, THINK, and only then decide for yourself who is right - those who are "scientists" or everyone else
              1. +15
                7 August 2021 10: 06
                And what for to hide these real events, that's why what benefit to anyone from that, that was a thousand years ago so, and not so what will change?
            2. -18
              7 August 2021 10: 03
              Quote: Kayala
              I am ashamed to ask, since in your opinion there was no Mongol invasion and there will be


              there were, of course, too many manuscripts reached us, they were not burned, but they were NOT MONGOLOIDS.
            3. -4
              7 August 2021 12: 39
              First you need proof of why. At least somehow a document. You are not wondering where Star Wars went to, and why did Dune not exist? Fiction is at odds with technology, chronology, and mathematics. Many have already understood that the first historians were court falsifiers, and modern defenders of fakes. Show at least one accounting document or warehouse, provisions, factory production of weapons of such a huge army. "Ulus" could not cope with the small army of Ermak and other prison in Siberia in the service of the Tsar. Masovka and the super bow did not help, moreover, regarding the data of historians for 300 years of Iga, there is no military, technological progress, and even for more than 300 years.
              1. +14
                7 August 2021 12: 48
                And in China, too, it turns out there was no Mongol invasion? Or have the Chinese counterfeiters already worked there?
                1. -7
                  7 August 2021 13: 20
                  Quote: ViacheslavS
                  Or have the Chinese counterfeiters already worked there?

                  Have worked. And how we did it. Yes With the change of dynasties, the history of China was rewritten. In fact, from scratch. And references to "ancient Chinese chronicles" .... Equivalent to a reference to "Holidays in buttermilk". Sources of the same historical value. laughing
                  PS
                  And about rewriting Chinese history ... It was not my idea, and not alternative people. A truly respected historian wrote, an official through and through. Meliksetov. In the introduction to the Chinese history textbook. For universities. Who is to blame for the fact that the official stories are completely failing, even the introduction to the textbook cannot be mastered. lol
                  1. +15
                    7 August 2021 13: 22
                    Did the Japanese also deliberately lie about the Mongols? And why haven't the Chinese erased this "shameful" moment from their history?
                    1. -8
                      7 August 2021 14: 13
                      Quote: ViacheslavS
                      Did the Japanese also deliberately lie about the Mongols?

                      Oh ... Mongol invasion of Japan .... Indiscreet question. Can you imagine the number ... Well, at least the ships of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, required for the transfer of just 1000 sabers? Take an interest. The same epildifor, in the landing version, is not a fact that he would have dragged off fifty. But they are Koreans ... They churned out supertankers in batches in the 13th century. Chu cost them fifty BDK zabatsat. laughing
                      Quote: ViacheslavS
                      And why haven't the Chinese erased this "shameful" moment from their history?

                      And what is this shameful? Very correct. From the point of view of the following dynasties. For it was not the legitimate rulers that were overthrown and massacred, but even the vile savages who enslaved their native Chinese. Yes
                      1. +1
                        7 August 2021 16: 16
                        ... for the transfer of just 1000 sabers? Take an interest. The same epildifor, in the landing version, is not a fact that he would have dragged off fifty ...

                        I would like to imagine how the "Elpidifor" will land cavalry on the unequipped coast. I would like to, but I cannot, I lack imagination. request
                      2. -2
                        7 August 2021 17: 13
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        I would like to imagine how the "Elpidifor" will land cavalry on the unequipped coast. I would like to, but I cannot, I lack imagination.

                        And how tens of thousands of horsemen, o-trekon, are planted from this

                        Is there enough fantasy for that? lol
                        In fact, if ... The only adequate sailing vessel in China, Korea, Japan is a junk. Everything else, in my opinion, is from a series of half-childish fantasies on the topic - what if you attach the bottom to a house, or a barn, or a barracks, and shove it into the sea. And the reality of the existence of these colorfully painted perversions ... Causes great doubts.
                        Well, to believe that these floating sheds can load into themselves, and even more so unload three dozen thousand soldiers on the beach, and under a hundred thousand horses ... wassat
                      3. +5
                        7 August 2021 17: 44
                        I am aware that people have a rich imagination, some are just limitless. smile
                        I wonder where you found such beautiful steamers? The person who painted these "Titanics", especially the central one, was aware of such a concept as metacentric height and an unpleasant incident called "overkil"?
                      4. 0
                        7 August 2021 21: 02
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        I wonder where you found such beautiful steamers?

                        Ivanov S.V. Warships of Japan and Korea 612-1639 Not anyhow, scientific work. At least, under such a sauce, a link to him was voiced. laughing
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        was aware of such a concept as metacentric height and an unpleasant incident called "overkil"?

                        A person is paid to "draw a beautiful little book," and not for swearing. All the more so incomprehensible. Yes
                      5. +8
                        7 August 2021 21: 25
                        Ivanov S.V. Warships of Japan and Korea 612-1639 Not anyhow, scientific work. At least, under such a sauce, a link to him was voiced.

                        This opus has nothing to do with scientific works.
                      6. -1
                        7 August 2021 22: 04
                        In general, everything is clear, except that for some reason you were drawn to the mate, "all the more so incomprehensible." request hi
                      7. -4
                        7 August 2021 18: 33
                        for clarity, a medieval Japanese galley, on the flag there is an image of a griffin, and this is a symbol of Tartaria

                      8. +13
                        7 August 2021 19: 22
                        Quote: Lannan Shi
                        Indelicate question. Can you imagine the number ... Well, at least the ships of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, required for the transfer of just 1000 sabers?

                        Based on your logic, it turns out that Guillaume Bastard did not land in England either, because the ships are small, fragile, it is impossible to transport 7000 people with horses on them, and disembarkation from them on an unprepared shore is also impossible.
                        Or did he land, after all, a civilized white man, and not a macaque, glancing up?
                      9. -4
                        7 August 2021 21: 17
                        Quote: HanTengri
                        Based on your logic, it turns out that Guillaume Bastard did not land in England either, because the ships are small, fragile, carry 7000 people with horses on them

                        Let's start with numbers. 7 to people and 7 to horses, against 30k people and 90 to horses. There are 15 times less logistics problems.
                        Further. The channel width is 30 times smaller. Total 15 * 30 = 450. We have 450 times fewer problems.
                        Well, and its own transport. I am lazy to copy here a picture of the nave and kog, but against the background of Korean miracles, which are presented to us as real-life ships ... That the nave, that kog are just ideal examples of shipbuilding. At least an order of magnitude superior to their eastern counterparts. This is at least an order of magnitude, but rather by 2 or 3. But okay, 450 * 10 = 4500.
                        Total. According to the most conservative estimates, a landing in England is at least 4500 more realistic than a Mongol in Japan. Minimum. Rather, 45.000 times, or 450.000. For the simple reason that Korean ships, taken from the world's most reliable miniatures, taken from the world's most reliable Korean sources, can sail in one direction. Strictly from top to bottom. Any other direction of their navigation, on the planet called the Earth, is impossible. For it contradicts the laws of earthly physics. And either the most truthful Korean chronicles in the world lie about the ships, or about the very fact of the invasion. But it's frankly lazy for me to seek out if there is even a gram of truth in this heap of fiction. For the source that is lying, obviously, is not a source, but a bunch of organic fertilizer of animal origin. Yes
                        PS
                        And I did not touch the question that Willy, whatever one may say, of the people for whom the sea is by no means an obstacle, but rather a road. And unlike the scarecrows, he would not sit on the beach for months. Poking his nose and trying to understand - what the tse is in front of him. And what to do with it, pack it in a sack, or fall on your knees and pray.
                    2. 0
                      7 August 2021 17: 35
                      You will also ask about Khorezm.
                      Would be shy.
                      It was told to you - everything was wrong.
                      All modern science uses forgeries.
                    3. +12
                      7 August 2021 20: 32
                      ViacheslavS - Do not take these poor people seriously. For them, the Persian records of the invasion do not exist and the Arab sources written by the contemporaries of those events are not known to them, but the fact that there are people in Hungary now - direct descendants of the Mongols and leading their family by name from those times to the present day, in their flat heads just do not fit. All these Fomenki and their adherents are analogous to seamen from a neighboring country, and on their heads they have the same pans as those of the "great ukrov", even if they themselves do not even notice these pans. hi
                      And what is especially interesting - people who have never been to the east of the Ural ridge speak out with special aplomb about the Mongol campaigns, and there is no way to explain something to them, because of course they know better from Moscow or St. Petersburg how and what happened here. I live in Mongolia, in its Russian part, in the republic, which until recently was called Buryat-Mongolian and often visit Mongolia itself. Once I showed my Mongolian friends what they write about the Mongols "alternatively gifted" - and so, through the friendly laughter of the descendants of ancient warriors, only one question came through - I was asked what do those who write this smoke? wassat
                      1. -5
                        7 August 2021 21: 21
                        Let them first look at the cities of Russia and compare them with their yurt and other households and then laugh again, and then find out who smoked what. Their entire great history lies in the transportation of animals from one place to another. The rest is fantasy.
                      2. -4
                        7 August 2021 23: 50
                        Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko
                        compare with their yurt


                        the administrative units of the troops of the Cherkassians and Cossacks of the Don, Kuban and Terek were called Yurts. This is Yurt. This was back in the 18th century before Katka.
                        It is quite possible that the yurts were the camping tents of the Cossack troops at that time.
                2. -4
                  7 August 2021 22: 25
                  And China was rewritten as a puppet illiterate state. You are not surprised that the technologies that were remembered in Europe during the Renaissance were in China BC, and why it was not in China BC. smartphone technology and other technologies of the 20th and 21st centuries? Because it's fantastic. In order to lead your history you need institutions, schools, money, especially the technology of printing. Now remember who organized schools, institutes of the judicial system around the world. Moreover, those who falsified history understood that for history to be true, it should be the same everywhere, and this is what the Germans did, they adjusted Russian history to fit their own, and so it is all over the world. The illiterate population will eat whatever is served. As usual, history teaches nothing. You are not surprised by the influence on the culture and history of Russia, China,
                  South Africa and other states rich in Soros? But this is happening now.
              2. 0
                7 August 2021 23: 46
                not "could not" but "did not want". Ediger wanted Ivan the Terrible, he even sent a way out - with squirrels. But Kuchum, a stranger, pushed him. Not everyone was happy with this. Yermak was simply sent to see what and how. Naturally, in 500 cabbage soup he would not have won anyone. And the Siberian ulus is not the Jochi ulus - Ivan the Terrible was waiting for the squirrels around 30 minutes before the exit. 30000 potential bayonets scattered over a vast area.
            4. +2
              7 August 2021 17: 48
              Another thing is interesting - where did those innumerable treasures that type were plundered from all over Eurasia go? After all, there must be colossal sums, mountains of works of art, goods, expensive weapons, and so on !! But - already two hundred years later Mongolia appears as a completely impoverished territory, even traces of the swag can not be seen! Where is everything from China, Khorezm, Iran, the Caucasus, Russia, Hungary, etc.?
              1. +1
                8 August 2021 20: 55
                The Arab Caliphate was a gambling and wealthy empire, but the Arabs became tough and rich only after they found oil. laughing
                The author wrote that the armies that plundered foreign lands were not Mongols, but they received grandmothers on equal terms drinks so wealth scattered across Asia wassat in addition, they took what: silk, furs, weapons, gold (they are also jewelry) of which there were not so many at that time (there was no industrial production on today's scale). And they turned all architectural works into ruins and left them to the locals, it is not convenient to carry the statues with them. what they are quality workers lol
            5. 0
              7 August 2021 23: 22
              Quote: Kayala
              Why is the possibility of only a Mongol invasion denied? Why is no one trying to challenge Hannibal's crossing of the Alps, especially with elephants and camels?


              elephants, as you know on Earth, there are 2 breeds of Indian and African. African ones are not tamed at all, only Indian ones are tamed, so Hanibal from Carthage simply could not have elephants. This is just an argument against the history of the Roman Empire. This argument has led long ago long ago Kostylev or something in "Historical Hochmas"
              1. +1
                8 August 2021 21: 54
                African elephants live south of the Sahara. At the time of Carthage, the climate was probably somewhat different, but the Sahara was in place and, accordingly, they did not even know that elephants live in Carthage in Africa, because they have been to the south of the Sahara and no one has beenlaughing To defeat the invincible Rome, it would be nice to have one that has no analogues. wassat And they knew about India (in the understanding of those times) that there were normal guys on elephants in the showdowns since the creation of the world, How a trading nation to write out some 200 elephants in Persia or Aksum, for them there were no problems hi
                1. -1
                  30 August 2021 14: 26
                  Quote: Eroma
                  As a trading nation to write out some 200 elephants in Persia or Aksum, they did not have any problems


                  "write", by mail, that the elephants were delivered?
              2. 0
                11 August 2021 18: 14
                My friend and you do not know that there was a third species. North African elephants. They are smaller than African and Indian. Study the question and then write your conclusions. The truth is already unpleasant
                1. -1
                  30 August 2021 14: 29
                  Quote: Vasya Rock
                  and you do not know that there was a third species. North African elephants. They


                  the third type of elephants was invented specifically for the version of the Punic wars, no one saw them live, these are the speculations of the ophistorikof.
                2. 0
                  1 September 2021 15: 33
                  Wikipedia has such information, it is quite possible that Hanibal lit these North African elephants in Rome. I didn't know about them feel
                  but the essence of my post was not about what elephants the Carthaginians were chasing, but about the fact that Hannibal had elephants! and as an argument, I gave an example that Aliexpress also worked in those days wassat
          2. -14
            7 August 2021 09: 52
            Quote: Rurikovich
            A completely different civilization kept another civilization in fear for 300 years and did not leave any significant traces of its stay, except for the "evidence" of modern historians - this suggests that someone was lying very badly ...


            Yes, just like that, before the world was different and belonged, why hide the white race. These peoples were called differently
            -Russian
            Mongols
            -tartars / dardars / darians
            -wends
            -vandals
            -cossacks
            but best suited
            -SOKOLYANE, i.e. se / this is Kolyane, Kolo / Sun, hence the Herodotovsky Sklaven and the arrogant and disgusting
            -sklava (lat) -slave
            and many more other names.
            They spoke Russian and Turkic. Religion or better to say worldview SUN WORSHIP-Sala Maleikum / prayer to the Sun is of course already a distorted pronunciation. Solar symbolism is visible on many of the ancient buildings and objects that have come down to us, the same Sun crown, which was clearly depicted in the Chronicle or the Radziwill Chronicle.
            1. +11
              7 August 2021 10: 05
              You're just a racist my friend, an ordinary Natsik.
              1. -11
                7 August 2021 10: 07
                Quote: Cartalon
                You're just a racist my friend, an ordinary Natsik.


                Yes, the word race most likely came from the word Russian and therefore I will not deny that I love my race. I am really a racist / Russianist and Russian nationalist.
                1. +11
                  7 August 2021 10: 17
                  A person who considers himself better than others, based on signs of appearance and origin, is simple.
                  1. -10
                    7 August 2021 10: 27
                    you would open your eyes to the world. What is created by the white race? EVERYTHING that was not created by white people, almost nothing.
                    Africa, it is necessary to cite the Old, what happened to the same South Africa, when blacks began to rule there? They just littered skyscrapers.
                    South. America is a backward and depressed country with a weak economy. They have not created anything outstanding.
                    Asia is copiers and licensors, they do not create their own.
                    Is not it?
                    And what are the foundations of civilization?
                    -Etruscans / Russians created Rome and created this "Roman" culture.
                    -Tatars / Dardars founded and built a type of Chinese state and created a "Chinese" culture.
                    -Indian civilization, everywhere in the Vedas it is written that the culture of the peoples of India was brought by the white peoples - the Aryans.
                    These are the facts of YOUR OI.
            2. +9
              7 August 2021 11: 06
              Quote: Bar1
              and many more other names.
              They spoke Russian and Turkic. Religion or better to say worldview SUN WORSHIP-Sala Maleikum / prayer to the Sun is of course already a distorted pronunciation.

              Of course distorted! It will be correct: As-salamu aleikum! So, that no fat, i.e. the sun is not here. Because it is not "in Russian and Turkic", but in Arabic. And for the Arabs, fat is haram, and the sun, in the desert, is so warm that you can die. Why worship such an unpleasant thing?
              Although, if, with an open mind, an inquisitive technical mind, pierce this phrase, then it immediately becomes clear to any average linguistic engineer that the Arabs borrowed it from the Scandinavians. For:
              "As-salamu" is nothing more than: "Asam - salami" (to give).
              "aleikum" is: "Alla is a godfather."
              We get: "Asam - sally. Alla - kum.", Which corresponds to the German "To each his own", or Russian "Caesar is Caesar's, and locksmith's locksmith". wassat
            3. +7
              7 August 2021 13: 50
              Quote: Bar1
              and arrogant and disgusting
              -sklava (lat) -slave

              In Latin, "slave" is - servus
              1. -5
                7 August 2021 14: 10
                Quote: Hyperion
                Quote: Bar1
                and arrogant and disgusting
                -sklava (lat) -slave

                In Latin, "slave" is - servus


                yes, almost so, it is strange that in all other languages ​​French, English, port, Greek, German.
                -slav-sklav-esklav is a slave, but the Latin basis for all this is not so. However, the meaning has not changed.
                1. +3
                  7 August 2021 14: 22
                  Quote: Bar1
                  it is strange that in all other languages ​​French, English, port, Greek, German.
                  -slav-sklav-esklav is a slave but Latin is the basis of all this is not so.

                  It's a mystery, I agree. Most likely this is a late formation of the term, tk. in Greek, "slave" was originally "δούλος" ("servant", "follower" according to ancient Greek literature).
                2. -1
                  8 August 2021 01: 01
                  By the way, about the Cossacks, specifically, about the Kuban, these are immigrants from Zaporozhye, from the territory of Ukraine. There is a good theory about the Ukrainians - they are the descendants of the Slavs and Black Klobuk, which the Kiev princes allowed to settle on the borders, as a guard of the borders. And over the centuries they assimilated with the local population, hence the present-day dark-haired and black-browed Ukrainians, and the Ukrainian Cossacks, in particular, the Zaporozhians, are their most combat units. And the former Pechenegs, the Tatars squeezed out to Hungary, where they founded the city of Pest, they are Pechenegs Hungarians.
            4. +6
              7 August 2021 18: 29
              Quote: Bar1
              Quote: Rurikovich
              A completely different civilization kept another civilization in fear for 300 years and did not leave any significant traces of its stay, except for the "evidence" of modern historians - this suggests that someone was lying very badly ...


              Yes, just like that, before the world was different and belonged, why hide the white race. These peoples were called differently
              -Russian
              Mongols
              -tartars / dardars / darians
              -wends
              -vandals
              -cossacks
              but best suited
              -SOKOLYANE, i.e. se / this is Kolyane, Kolo / Sun, hence the Herodotovsky Sklaven and the arrogant and disgusting
              -sklava (lat) -slave
              and many more other names.
              They spoke Russian and Turkic. Religion or better to say worldview SUN WORSHIP-Sala Maleikum / prayer to the Sun is of course already a distorted pronunciation. Solar symbolism is visible on many of the ancient buildings and objects that have come down to us, the same Sun crown, which was clearly depicted in the Chronicle or the Radziwill Chronicle.

              What are you radnover? Has your head hit a log? Go sleep it off. And don't write any nonsense.
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            1. +4
              7 August 2021 18: 56
              He has been registered in the history section for a long time, he will smoke all sorts of rubbish and carry nonsense here. To listen to him, the whole world descended from the Arierussians. The same inadequate as the ancient ukry ... laughing
              1. -3
                7 August 2021 20: 50
                Where did you come from, entity?
          4. +2
            8 August 2021 19: 11
            The absence of a pronounced genotype of the Mongols in the territory of conquered Russia and the field of Europe.

            Indicate at least one source who says that after defeating Russia and patting Europe, the Mongols settled and began to spread their genotype. Russia was "taken under the roof", pumping out tribute and making raids if the payment did not come.
          5. +2
            8 August 2021 19: 25
            Quote: Rurikovich
            (especially techies)

            Machine tools would be better engaged!
          6. +1
            8 August 2021 22: 39
            [quote] [/ quote] A completely different civilization kept another civilization in fear for 300 years and did not leave any significant traces of its stay, except for the "evidence" of current historians - this suggests that someone has been lying very badly .. ...
            Personally, I have long ceased to believe in the official historical nonsense regarding the Mongol conquest. The real story, which many researchers are already digging into in the fields, mountains, in the basement of buried cities, is much more interesting than the inventions about nomads who, having abandoned everything on horseback, abandoned everything for thousands of kilometers in unusual climatic conditions and rushed to conquer the forest dwellers. Nonsense !!!!!!! [/ quote]

            Why are frosts and snow not accustomed to the Mongols? They roamed Buryatia and felt great bully And Russia is far from being forest dwellers fool We are located on the way from "Varyags to Greeks", i.e. from Byzantium to Northern Europe and exotic goods from Constantinople and Persia were traded in Russia, Russia itself was a supplier of goods to different countries. Cities in Russia were developed no worse than anywhere else, in size no less than in the east and no poorer than in the west, the craft was developed! The squad was equipped no worse than any army in the known world, and even the militia went to war not with clubs, but in decent armor and decent weapons, and weapons are always an expensive pleasure, which means that everything was fine with money in Russia. And our princes were not ascetics far away, and the prince was not alone in the whole of Russia, but there were a lot of them both boyars and merchants, and there are a lot of rich people recruited. Therefore, our land was rich and a rather tempting target for invaders, since then nothing has changed! lol

            And the structure of the Mongolian army and the reasons for their militancy described by the author fully explains the invasion of the Horde on the lands of Russia: they ruined the entire east, the army in fact consists of mercenaries who need to be paid, there are no sources of income other than robbery! Therefore, apart from moving to the west, they have no more options, so they moved crying ... An alternative to a new campaign was the dissolution of the army, but this option was not even considered, since it was stupid.

            And there are no traces of the Mongols in Russia, because they did not live here! they ravaged the land and moved on, carrying their gene pool further. To collect tribute, they appointed guards from the local, as a variant of the rise of Moscow, and there is, the appointment of a Moscow prince as a collector of tribute from Russia for the Mongols. guardians also sent tribute to the Mongols, so there is not any correspondence in the Mongolian language. Everything is logical hi
            But at the same time, I agree with you that history is written by the winners and as they need it and we know history as an interpretation of events by someone. I am also interested in alternative options, there are raised questions to which you will not find answers at a swoop: for example, why there are no trees older than 200 years in the Siberian taiga and where are our settlements in the north, which should have been 100%, since we mastered Siberia through the rivers, entering from North. At the same time, there is absolutely no infrastructure left there.
          7. 0
            25 August 2021 12: 46
            suggest something else .. you deny one thing, let's replace
          8. +1
            28 September 2021 10: 43
            You apparently have absolutely no idea of ​​the life of nomads.
            "threw everything" as pretentious sounds! But the catch is that a nomad doesn't have to give up anything, even now in the 21st century. All his property can easily fit in a luggage for 3-4 horses, even a cart is not needed.
            They have completely different values, they have no concept of home, place of residence. Their home is where the grass is greener now, or there is less snow.
            In order to understand this, you don't even need to go to Mongolia, it will be enough to visit the remote settlements of Gorny Altai. There and now some people live like this, a "house" with an earthen floor of 8 m2 for a family, this is a reality. Moreover, they do not really need this "house", because they drove the herd into the mountains, they will go down in 4 months, or maybe they will not go down this year.
            2 boys 9 and 11 years old, with a gun, a day's drive from the nearest settlement (in which there is not even a cellular connection), guarding the herd from wolves, this is the reality of today. They live all summer, in a wooden shed, slightly larger than a toilet, taking turns, once a week they ride a horse to the village for groceries. This is a normal local life, now, as it was 700 years ago, to be honest, I don't even want to imagine.
            So I do not see any contradictions in the fact that the nomads, instead of driving livestock through pastures and fighting each other for the best of the valley, suddenly decided to go to their neighbors and take away food from them.
        2. Fat
          +5
          7 August 2021 09: 02
          hi Timur. Your comment is completely incomprehensible to me.
          "The number of the cavalry army was two ten thousandths (Old Greek δισ-μυριάδες μυριάδων); and I heard its number" (Rev. 9:16).
          The system of writing numbers in Cyrillic, digits is a method of alphabetically writing numbers using the Cyrillic or Glagolitic alphabet, which has been used in Russia since the XNUMXth century.
          Currently used in books in Church Slavonic.


          Specifically, to designate thousands to the left of the corresponding letter-number, a small diagonal was written down to the left and two small dashes on it - ҂.
          Large numbers also had their own "names" for scoring and recording (except for the letter with a title or other signs. "For example: Darkness - ten thousand, great darkness - a million. Legion - by a small count - one hundred thousand, by a great count - a trillion.
          1. -3
            7 August 2021 09: 38
            Quote: Thick
            Timur. Your comment is completely incomprehensible to me.
            "The number of the cavalry army was two ten thousandths (Old Greek δισ-μυριάδες μυριάδων); and I heard its number" (Rev. 9:16).


            I'm not talking about Greek and not about translations from Greek, but about the GENERAL USE of counting in Russia / Muscovy. Normally, you can count only in Arabic numerals, and any Roman or Cyrillic systems of notation are not suitable for counting, but historians refuse to use the Arabic counting in Russian until Peter: It cannot be so, because even in the annals they speak by reading the numbers in Arabic, and this is a big miscalculation in official history.
            Anyone, Trilobite, will answer that?
            1. Fat
              +7
              7 August 2021 10: 06
              Why "Arab" if zero was invented in India?
              The invention of positional numbering based on the local meaning of numbers is attributed to the Sumerians and Babylonians. In a later period, this numbering was developed by the Hindus and had invaluable consequences in the history of civilization. These systems include the decimal number system, the emergence of which is associated with counting on the fingers. In medieval Europe, it appeared through Italian merchants, who in turn borrowed it from the Arabs.
              Quote: Bar1
              even in the annals they speak by reading the numbers in Arabic, and this is a big miscalculation in official history.

              Do you mean abjadia?
              Historically, the letters of the Arabic alphabet were arranged in the same order as in the Phoenician alphabet, from which Arabic is derived. Moreover, 6 letters that did not have a match in the Phoenician alphabet were placed at the end:
              Alif Ba Jim Dal Ha Vav Za Ha Ta Ya Kaf Lam Mim Nun Sin Ain Fa Sad Kaf Reish Shin Ta Sa Ha Zal Dad Za Gain
              أ ب ج د ﻩ و ﺯ ﺡ ﻁ ﻱ ﻙ ﻝ ﻡ ﻥ ﺱ ﻉ ﻑ ص ﻕ ﺭ ﺵ ﺕ ﺙ ﺥ ﺫ ﺽ ﻅ ﻍ
              1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX
              This order is called "abjad", in the first four letters: alif, ba, jim, dal. To memorize this sequence, the mnemonic pseudo-phrase "Abjad, havvaz, hutiy, kalaman, saafas, karashat, sahaz, dazag" is used. Before the transition to Indian ("Arabic") numbers, letters were used to denote numbers, and their numerical value corresponded to their order in abjad. Soon after the transition to Indian numerals, the order of the alphabet was changed to the modern one.

              The Church Slavonic system of writing numbers is positional, there is only zero.
          2. +4
            7 August 2021 09: 38
            I really like the clock in Suzdal.
        3. +2
          7 August 2021 20: 03
          Quote: Bar1
          I never considered it necessary to answer you to your type of posts, there was no subject for discussion, but maybe you will answer.
          In Russia, before the Petrine reforms, the writing of numbers was in letters.
          -A with title 1
          -B with title 2
          -B with title 3 ...

          Timur, position - Tysyatsky, says something to you?
          1. -1
            30 August 2021 14: 32
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Tysyatsky, is he telling you something?

            here it would be better to indicate the source where it is said about the tysyatsky?
      2. 0
        7 August 2021 08: 50
        That's right, I made a mistake with the misery laughing
      3. +10
        7 August 2021 09: 25
        Vladislav, good morning.
        Regarding tumen, the sources give extremely contradictory data, but relying on researchers, including those who translate these sources, there is the following information:
        the fog could reach up to 30 thousand people or a tribal association, for example the Uighurs, could be called fog.
        hi
    2. -4
      7 August 2021 06: 29


      These pictures are blatant and categorical lies. In the Leningrad edition of 1946. "Collection of Chronicles" by Rashid ad Din based on

      Consolidated Persian text, based on the 7 oldest manuscripts and their photocopies (among them 2 are the oldest and best manuscripts - Tashkent and Istanbul). Professor Semyonov


      Soviet orientalists, armed with the most advanced scientific methodology - Marxist-Leninist, are able to fulfill the task of not only critically establishing the full text, publishing and translating Jami 'at-tavarikh, but also studying this unique historical source in full.
      review academician Petrushevsky


      THERE ARE NO illustrations. The fact that this false historian Vashchenko is citing here is not clear from where (from Berlin?), But he also will not show this publication in its entirety, but only stupid pictures from Wikipedia created by someone who is not clear.
      The misleading of readers on the VO platform by these half-baked goods continues.
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        2. -4
          7 August 2021 08: 31
          Quote: Alex_1973
          Listen, stop talking about your own nonsense.

          You understand what the matter is. The fact that the Chinese carried out the cleaning of historical sources, during the change of dynasties, with the destruction of public and private archives, is, as it were, a scientific fact. However ... Books are "wrong" they still burn, despite the complete senselessness of this action, in the era of the Internet and easy copying of information. Type in a search engine - book burning in china. Yes Question. Where did the "authentic Chinese miniatures of the 14th century" come from after 2-3 waves of total cleansing? Unclear? No, not at all. The Chinese themselves admit that 90 percent of the "historical relics" sold by antiquaries in China are a frank remake. Cooked up just yesterday. And if you think that this business arose a year or five, and 100 years ago, the Chinese did not even think of giving long-nosed barbarians a penny fake for a solid fee, then ... This is another confirmation that human naivety and greed have no limit.
          The last picture, the fact that the reconstruction ... This is completely heavy narcotic delirium. To pack a steppe horse even in leather armor .... Only a patient of a narcologist is really capable of this. Well, or a psychiatrist. For even a very lightly armed rider (a bow with a dozen arrows, a short spear and a knife, without any protection) is already walking along the border of her physiological capabilities, and in what is painted on her in the picture ... The little animal will only crawl. Yes
          The possibility of confronting the cavalry of super-light, practically unarmed, moreover, consisting of untrained and not a damn good militia, cavalry consisting of professionals, heavily armed? In addition, if the militia rabble loses in speed, i.e. not able to catch up or run away ... Have you read about the peasant uprisings? Medieval? This is the outcome of the war.
          By the way. In the same Ottoman Empire, where those very light horse archers had a wagon and a small car, they were by no means a striking force. The backbone of this army was composed of the Janissaries - heavy infantry, and the Sipahs - heavy cavalry. Think for yourself why, having on its lands and vassals, countless crowds of "mega-warriors", the Ottoman army, the best at that time in Europe and the Middle East, did not trust them to guard the transports. Yes
          That is why all these "truly genuine miniatures" aroused indignation in a person. Yes
          1. +15
            7 August 2021 08: 47
            It is not the miniatures that cause indignation in a person, but the presentation of history in its current presentation. He is a supporter of the theory of "great Tartaria" and the fact that the whole universe originated from the Aryerussians. And this is akin to ancient ukrams. We already have something to be proud of in history, but why bring everything to the point of absurdity and become like the ancient ukram? Anti-scientific nonsense remains anti-scientific nonsense, whatever you call it or justify it.
            Moreover, this "bar" is a rare boor. Anyone else would have been sent to the ban.

            PS And about the cavalry and the confrontation with the infantry, I can ask, have you heard about the Spanish thirds, but about the Swiss, and about the Scots, and about the Russian long-range? And then not all of the Mongolian cavalry was light, in the tumens the first two or three thousand were quite heavy cavalry.
            1. -12
              7 August 2021 09: 12
              Quote: Kayala
              He is a supporter of the theory of "great Tartary"


              this is not a "theory" for this there is strong evidence, maps and documents, what kind of theory is it for you? For this there is our GREAT COUNTRY inhabited by Russian people who do not have a drop of Mongoloid blood and this does not fit into your story at all. And this evidence should be considered, and not turned up, as you do.

              Quote: Kayala
              And this is akin to ancient ukrams


              what are the Ukrainians and Tartary? You yourself are one of those who only carry nonsense. Where is the same Abulgachi Bayadur Khan, what are the Ukrainians? He wrote absolutely not about that.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +9
              7 August 2021 09: 14
              Anyone else would have been sent to the ban.
              It has already happened, and more than once.
              1. -7
                7 August 2021 09: 39
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Anyone else would have been sent to the ban.
                It has already happened, and more than once.


                this is your favorite topic ...
                1. +7
                  7 August 2021 09: 53
                  There were no other phantasmagoric versions about my status on the resource! Yours is the next one. I'll tell Skomorokhov, he will laugh for a long time.
                  1. -8
                    7 August 2021 09: 55
                    yes, but laughing for no reason? Is it good?
                    1. +5
                      7 August 2021 10: 28
                      Well, why not for no reason? You just don't see her. A sense of humor is a very individual concept.
                      1. -5
                        7 August 2021 10: 31
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Well, why not for no reason? You just don't see her. A sense of humor is a very individual concept.


                        what about an American who smiles in your face while driving into the back of your car? Humanly speaking, he is not adequate, but in Russian he is just a goat.
                      2. +4
                        7 August 2021 10: 37
                        Are you absolutely sure that this is how Americans behave in such situations?
                      3. +5
                        7 August 2021 11: 55
                        Anton,
                        Are you absolutely sure that this is how Americans behave in such situations?

                        good good good
                  2. +5
                    7 August 2021 10: 29
                    Hello Anton hi , well, you love science fiction, expand the topic, we will support and laugh together. smile drinks
                    1. +3
                      7 August 2021 10: 31
                      Come on, Uncle Kostya, it's not interesting! hi
                      1. +4
                        7 August 2021 10: 36
                        I wrote a couple of lines to you in a personal note.
            3. -5
              7 August 2021 09: 33
              Quote: Kayala
              in tumens the first two or three thousand were quite heavy cavalry.

              Heavy steppe cavalry? I will repeat myself. Severe narcotic delirium. Heavy cavalry is the exclusive privilege of the sedentary. Having horses in stall keeping. Here you understand what business. Or a steppe horse, suppressing, and as a result, whether it looks like a small pony, or like a large shepherd dog. Or a drill fool, half a ton in weight, who will die in the steppe quickly and efficiently. That's just the physiology of the horse. We do not seem to live in a fantasy, the author of which scored the laws of nature?
              Quote: Kayala
              have you heard about the Spanish thirds

              I didn't quite understand. What do the gangs of Mongolian shepherds have to do with the third?
              Quote: Kayala
              It is not the miniatures that cause indignation in a person, but the presentation of history in its current presentation.

              Well, who's to blame for the fact that modern historians are an exact copy of the orthodox astronomers of the century that way 14. Rested on the fact that the earth stands on three whales, and the stars are silver nails, with which the firmament was nailed to something there. And equally calling to send to the stake those who scientifically prove them wrong.
              For example, for the third year, if I am not mistaken, I poke the Mongolophiles with my nose that the Mongolian horse, in principle, is not capable of carrying an armed rider. Well, that is, it is capable, but slowly and sadly. And it’s good if the infantryman does not catch up with it. And that's damn horse physiology. The answer is standard. You are stupid, for all sorts of nonsense like biologists and physicists, we chkhal, and the only thing we believe is carpini and with him.
              Here's a simple question. What kind of city was on the banks of the Akhtuba? The length of the ruins of which, in the 19th century, was estimated at almost 100 miles. The standard answer is that it was the Mugals who built a settlement in a quarter of modern Moscow in 20 or 30 years, and then whoever burned it there, did not offer it. For by education I am connected with construction (well, I'm not a historian, I have a profession lol ), I can imagine the norms of a digger with a shovel or a bricklayer, and I would like to send the respondents in this style to the doctor's office.
              The problem with historians off is that they are completely divorced from the real world. And if they proclaimed some vague "document" to be true, and it contradicts physics, mathematics, and geography with biology .... Then these are the problems of the exact sciences, and not historians who decided to present outright nonsense as an indisputable truth.
              1. -5
                7 August 2021 10: 05
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                What kind of city was on the banks of the Akhtuba? The length of the ruins of which, in the 19th century, was estimated at almost 100 miles.


                oops, what is this? Is it a shed? Can you link to this?
                1. -4
                  7 August 2021 10: 30
                  Quote: Bar1
                  Is it a shed?

                  Ugums. Tsarevskoe settlement. They are trying to pass off a berke as a barn. That's just ...
                  “… Wonderful ruins of stone buildings. Starting near the village of Bezrodny, or Verkhne-Akhtuba, they stretch for 70 versts. These ruins are frequent, sometimes rare, sometimes vast and large, sometimes small and insignificant, however, everywhere they show bricks, clay, lime... Further from the village. When we reach the village of Koloboshchina, 15 miles away, ruins are visible almost solid and for the most part huge

                  Here are just off historians cut the size of every 5-10. Minimum. Otherwise, questions arise. How did the wild steppe dwellers, over the course of several years, build up the metropolis that blocked off Constantinople of the 15th century model? 70 + 15 = 85 versts. 85 versts of solid brick building. Creativity of wild sheep? Ugums. The norm of the simplest, deaf masonry is 0,9 cubic meters per hour. Now convert 85 versts of solid buildings into cubes. Even if this building is in 1 line (street). It is better not to remember how much a modern brick factory will produce these cubes. But then yes ... Mugals arrived, imported heels of brick factories from italy of the 21st century, from Uzbekistan, also the 21st century, a couple of hundred thousand builders, and rushed ...
                  Quote: Bar1
                  Can you link to this?

                  Shirokorad has, in - the Caspian Russian lake, a link to the Saratov local historian Leopoldov.
              2. +1
                7 August 2021 18: 33
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                Quote: Kayala
                in tumens the first two or three thousand were quite heavy cavalry.

                Heavy steppe cavalry? I will repeat myself. Severe narcotic delirium. Heavy cavalry is the exclusive privilege of the sedentary. Having horses in stall keeping. Here you understand what business. Or a steppe horse, suppressing, and as a result, whether it looks like a small pony, or like a large shepherd dog. Or a drill fool, half a ton in weight, who will die in the steppe quickly and efficiently. That's just the physiology of the horse. We do not seem to live in a fantasy, the author of which scored the laws of nature?
                Quote: Kayala
                have you heard about the Spanish thirds

                I didn't quite understand. What do the gangs of Mongolian shepherds have to do with the third?
                Quote: Kayala
                It is not the miniatures that cause indignation in a person, but the presentation of history in its current presentation.

                Well, who's to blame for the fact that modern historians are an exact copy of the orthodox astronomers of the century that way 14. Rested on the fact that the earth stands on three whales, and the stars are silver nails, with which the firmament was nailed to something there. And equally calling to send to the stake those who scientifically prove them wrong.
                For example, for the third year, if I am not mistaken, I poke the Mongolophiles with my nose that the Mongolian horse, in principle, is not capable of carrying an armed rider. Well, that is, it is capable, but slowly and sadly. And it’s good if the infantryman does not catch up with it. And that's damn horse physiology. The answer is standard. You are stupid, for all sorts of nonsense like biologists and physicists, we chkhal, and the only thing we believe is carpini and with him.
                Here's a simple question. What kind of city was on the banks of the Akhtuba? The length of the ruins of which, in the 19th century, was estimated at almost 100 miles. The standard answer is that it was the Mugals who built a settlement in a quarter of modern Moscow in 20 or 30 years, and then whoever burned it there, did not offer it. For by education I am connected with construction (well, I'm not a historian, I have a profession lol ), I can imagine the norms of a digger with a shovel or a bricklayer, and I would like to send the respondents in this style to the doctor's office.
                The problem with historians off is that they are completely divorced from the real world. And if they proclaimed some vague "document" to be true, and it contradicts physics, mathematics, and geography with biology .... Then these are the problems of the exact sciences, and not historians who decided to present outright nonsense as an indisputable truth.

                Brad is you, who are you to believe you? Historian? Archaeologist? Reconstructor?
              3. +7
                8 August 2021 19: 39
                Quote: Lannan Shi
                Heavy steppe cavalry? I will repeat myself. Severe narcotic delirium. Heavy cavalry is the exclusive privilege of the sedentary.

                Wrong. You just don't know the history.
                1. 0
                  8 August 2021 20: 42
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Wrong. You just don't know the history.

                  Yeah. But you know. Do you even know what determines the severity of the cavalry? If chu, then the weight of the horse. For its main feature is the ability to overturn the enemy. And the weight of the armor itself does not play any role here. And you can even pack a scarecrow in Milan at three. The difference of half a ton between the weight of a steppe horse and a horse of heavy weight will not be eliminated. And a normal heavy. Because in the very first collision he will process the steppe meat into minced meat, while keeping horses even half a ton on pasture is fundamentally impossible. At least in the steppe.
                  And if we are talking about the Mongolian heavy cavalry ... It is either nonsense, or those chronicled Mongols were anything but the ancestors of the present. For I will repeat myself again. Heavy steppe cavalry - goes through the section of psychiatry.
                  You don’t have that way three tons of grain a year, for one horse's face? Not one drill, but one in general? So it’s nefig to dream about heavy. And the content of one thousand heavy. it will pour out to you, taking into account young stock, foal mares, etc., a thousand that way in 15-20 tons of grain annually. The nomads. Yeah. The yield is 5-6 centners per hectare and three as an average rate, poured into 50-70.000 hectares of crops, to maintain 1000 tons of 500-700 square km. And 30-35.000 peasants and their families to cultivate the land. Apart from the fact that these 35 thousand also need to be fed. And in total, under 50-70.000 population, only for feeding the horse population for ONE thousands of heavy. to .. And what is characteristic, all 70 thousand, all over the world are farmers. So it comes down? Why heavy to. in the steppe is fundamentally impossible? And why its presence is a reinforced concrete fact of the settledness of the people.
                  1. +6
                    9 August 2021 05: 34
                    I know a lot about what. My book on the historiography of knightly armament was published in Germany, and there are quite a few of them in Russia. And there is "Samurai. The first complete encyclopedia" - a total of 17 years of work. You just read little of the relevant research. But it is especially bad that you do not know the data of excavations on the territory of the Russian Federation, in the Trans-Balkal region. Well, books ... A. Khazanov, for example, Yu. Khudyakov. The latter dug this very Minusinsk depression up and down. Digging in Mongolia. All of its provisions are based on archaeological finds.
                    1. 0
                      9 August 2021 09: 58
                      Quote: kalibr
                      for example, Yu. Khudyakov

                      Flipped through. Diagonally. Well .... The conclusions are very bold. On the frescoes, a warrior in an armor means .... But in fact it doesn't mean anything.
                      They'll dig up in some cave, even in Panama, drawings of EBRs like ... Well, let Majestic. AND??? Will you start building theories about the Panamanian mega-fleet of the early 20th century ???
                      After all, an extremely simple question. Where did the steppe dwellers take tens of thousands of tons of grain, without which it was hard. because it is fundamentally impossible. First, give an answer to it, and then we'll talk about other things.
                      And then ... In the graves of the brothers, in the 90s, they put their mobile phones, and in the photo they both posed and with the SVD, which never says either about the mass production of mobiles in the Russian Federation in those years, or about the fact that the brothers had divisions and the corps that conquered Russia.
                      PS
                      But then yes. It's funny to read. When they talk about heavy. To. on horses whose saddle is carried almost on the horse's head. Simply by virtue of the fact that a normal fit, on it, will lead to spinal injury, even under an unarmed rider. That's just because of the transcendence of such a load for the Mongolian half-horse / half-horse.
                      Did you attend the Naadam? At the races? If so, did you not pay attention to the difference between the landings of the traditional Mongolian, and at the race? Not? So pay attention. At least in the video. The race has a predominantly European or Turkic (whatever you like to call it) fit. It has nothing to do with traditional. Why? And there the children are jumping. And their weight is borne by the Mongolian. And you will talk about the heavy. To. on horses on which an adult rider is forced to climb on the horse's neck so as not to break her back? wassat
                      1. +5
                        9 August 2021 10: 11
                        The limitations of your knowledge let you down. Pieces ... are not whole. Large horses were bred in Central Asia, where the Chinese emperor even Wu Di made a military expedition to get such horses. Wed Asia was captured by the Mongols .. Here is your horses, grain - tribute from the conquered peoples. Moreover, their heavy cavalry was not numerous. On the Japanese invasion miniature, only 1 out of 10 warriors wear chain mail! And I was at the races and rode myself and carried out experiments with the landing of the spearmen on a horse without a saddle. But I also read a lot. Which is what I wish for you. To begin with, start at least with this: P.G. Gaidukov. Archeology of the USSR (multivolume) // Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences: 100 years of history / Otv. ed. N.A. Makarov. M .: IA RAN, 2019. And then you should be patient and look at all 18 volumes of ARCHEOLOGY of the USSR. There is a lot to read and see. But ordinary people are lazy and busy with their daily activities.
                      2. +1
                        9 August 2021 12: 28
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Large horses were bred in Central Asia, Middle Asia was captured by the Mongols ..

                        Look how it is. Without an army, for a crowd of shepherds, somehow armed, is not an army, but a crowd. Lacking cavalry. For a nag that loses in speed by a third, in terms of endurance by half, does not fit the role of a battle horse in any way. By the way. If you already position yourself as a connoisseur ... Cases from later times, not mythical chronicles, when the Chinese drove the mega-mobile Mongolian cavalry on foot should not be a secret for you. So that's it. Without an army as such, without cavalry, without really having weapons, having no idea of ​​strategy or logistics or anything else, gangs of sheep come and take out regular armies. Including heavyweight. Nuuu ... A beautiful fairy tale. But nothing that half a thousand heavyweight. able to grind such shepherds non-stop? Until it gets bogged down? And to get bogged down by a rider, together with a horse and armor under a ton of weight, in a crowd weighing 3 times less, is fundamentally impossible.
                        And another moment. A monkey packed in gothic style, and planted on a destination, will remain a monkey. Only devoid of the ability to do at least something. Preparation of a heavyweight rider. almost from childhood begins. And as a commander ... Remember how painfully cuirassiers were created in Russia. They started in 1730, but did not manage to reach the Seven Years.
                        But what about the fact that the practice of even Europe, even the same Ottoman imp, has clearly shown. The irregulars are nothing more than an auxiliary force. Separated from the pros, she can either run or die. Why didn't the Turks conquer Europe with the help of crowds of sheepfolds? They could exhibit them many times more. Why were janissaries and vultures trained? Were you stupid?
                        Quote: kalibr
                        and experiments carried out with the landing of spearmen on a horse without a saddle.

                        Physics. Elastic and inelastic collisions. A paper instead of a horse, a pencil instead of a spear. lol
                        Quote: kalibr
                        To begin with, start at least with this: P.G. Gaidukov. Archeology of the USSR

                        Yeah. It is indispensable. Just a question to start with. And there are many cases like karakorum? When an owl of a foundation from a medium-sized barn is pulled over the globe of a wanted palace, 10 times larger than the found foundation? laughing
          2. -1
            8 August 2021 23: 12
            I once read about the tactics of the Mongols: at first there were horse archers, they covered the front with themselves and bombarded the enemy with arrows. A hail of arrows shattered the enemy's formation, after which heavy cavalry, which suddenly appeared for the enemy, was beating at the most beaten place, since its attack was hidden by horse archers. The heavy workers were breaking through the line.
            Khans were not suckers in the art of war. Once I read about the feat of Alyosha Popovich, in the prehistory of his feat, the Rus campaign against the Mongols is described, the number was on our side and the Mongols did not enter into battle, they waited for an opportune moment to retreat into the steppe. And they waited until our army crossed the river, the army was divided and the Mongols defeated it in parts! Alyosha earned his place in history saving the broken army from death by sacrificing himself
      2. -2
        8 August 2021 19: 35
        Quote: Bar1
        armed with the most advanced scientific methodology - Marxist-Leninist,

        Trapped in the dustbin of history ...
    3. 0
      12 August 2021 09: 11
      ..yk them probably through the impenetrable desert of Tekla Makan did not transport them otherwise than Shoigu ..
  2. +3
    7 August 2021 04: 28
    Mongol nomadic empire. How and why

    Has anything changed? The absence of a national idea that divided the territory into separate principalities and the principle: "Everyone survives alone" became the reason for the established influence of a well-coordinated nomadic empire, where the methods of intimidation were plunder and death.
    It seems that the baptism of Russia did not become a storehouse of spiritual bonds. The confusion in the minds and "the day passed and ..." did not contribute to the unification.
  3. +8
    7 August 2021 04: 36
    I thank the author for the article with substantiated arguments and links ... It is difficult to argue and dig into them so far.
    I look forward to the continuation of the article ... an interesting interpretation of the history of the Mongol Empire. hi
  4. +3
    7 August 2021 04: 39
    "Russia fell under the yoke of the steppe dwellers" is a very bold statement in our time.
    1. +7
      7 August 2021 04: 56
      Fomenko and Nosovsky disagree with this statement. smile
  5. +3
    7 August 2021 05: 02
    .. has anyone seen Mongolians competing in water sports ..?
    1. +2
      7 August 2021 05: 08
      I saw it in archery, I saw it in wrestling, I saw it in horse racing ... I didn’t see it in swimming.
      I wonder how the Mongols ferried their numerous nomadic camps with their wives and children ... with all their belongings across the deep rivers?
      1. +6
        7 August 2021 06: 16
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        I wonder how the Mongols ferried their numerous nomadic camps with their wives and children ... with all their belongings across the deep rivers?

        The migratory nomadic routes of the "hordes" passed the "steppe roads of artiodactyls" - the main prey in hunting. So they mostly "roamed" in the upper reaches of the rivers and along them. Bovine leather sacks were used for personal crossing. In winter, we moved on ice.
        However, later, in the era of the Golden Horde, the headquarters of the khan with the army wandered without problems in the mouths of the Don and Volga.
      2. -8
        7 August 2021 15: 37
        .. even in 1920, the river was for the Mongols - TABU ..., the boys were splashing near the shore - an old turner told me - he lived with his parents for a while in Mongolia .. So leave even the thought of the Mongols crossing the rivers .. They even chop ice in winter - they prepare it for their needs - they showed it on TV ..
        1. +2
          7 August 2021 18: 35
          Don't talk nonsense. Have you been to Mongolia? I was, there is no taboo.
      3. +2
        7 August 2021 18: 34
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        I saw it in archery, I saw it in wrestling, I saw it in horse racing ... I didn’t see it in swimming.
        I wonder how the Mongols ferried their numerous nomadic camps with their wives and children ... with all their belongings across the deep rivers?

        Silently, without asking stupid questions.
    2. +6
      7 August 2021 05: 20
      Quote: ver_
      .. has anyone seen Mongolians competing in water sports ..?

      I didn’t see them personally, but the guys who studied with me from Mongolia told me that one of the tests in their selection was swimming. But they are exceptional riders - by nature.
  6. +3
    7 August 2021 06: 18
    half a million warriors? !!! the author even has an idea of ​​how much it is?
    1. +6
      7 August 2021 09: 32
      half a million warriors? !!! the author even has an idea of ​​how much it is?


      The author presents.
      So in the sources and historians-translators rely on these data in their works, that the entire male population of the age from 16 to 50 was not 500, but a million, no doubt about it. And all the men were warriors.
      The Tanguts from Xi Xia, having 100000 male population of "draft" age, collected about 300 for the war, but they were not uniformly horsemen, unlike the Khitan nomads.
      hi
      1. +3
        7 August 2021 09: 56
        Good morning!
        Let them bite me too, but I will give my calculation below. He's not particularly original.
        If you line up 500000 horses, then the chain will be 2000 km long.
        If you collect them all together, then they will occupy an area of ​​4000 sq. Km, and this is the total area of ​​modern St. Petersburg and Moscow.
        To feed, according to modern recommendations, a horse will need:
        Hay -10 kg, oats 6 kg, water 60 liters and now in terms of 500 thousand heads
        Hay 5000000 kg or 50000 cubic meters, oats 3000000 kg, water 30000 cubic meters vegetables and fruits did not count.
        To transport this amount of feed, you will need: hay - 650 cars and oats - 125 cars. In winter, the water for the horse must be heated i.e. need firewood. How many are there?
        As historians write, one fighter had 3 horses. We multiply everything by 3.
        The personnel also need to be fed.
        Suppose sources about the number are lying.
        The question arises about the real amount of the so-called. Mongol-Tatar troops.
        1. +4
          7 August 2021 10: 45
          In winter, the water for the horse must be heated i.e. need firewood.
          They are not needed, the horses themselves produce fuel.
          Alexander! hi
          1. -1
            7 August 2021 12: 00
            To heat 60 liters? What's with Moscow?
            1. +3
              7 August 2021 12: 02
              Well, not to a boil! It seems to have returned to normal.
              1. +6
                7 August 2021 12: 13
                When analyzing the life of the past, one cannot proceed from modern ideas and possibilities.
                I liked the phrase:
                for modern military men, even the most, war is only temporary work, for nomads it is life.

                I recommend reading the diary of the same Kozlov, who discovered Haro Khotu, about snowstorms in the Mongolian steppe, everyday life, how animals were saved, etc., strongly corrects modern rational reasoning.
                hi
                1. +4
                  7 August 2021 12: 17
                  Thank you!
                  The list of recommended reading is swelling before our eyes ...
              2. +1
                7 August 2021 12: 24
                The horse needs to be watered 3 times a day, but what if she does not do her business at a halt? And on the move? laughing these are not warriors, but orderlies of the steppes!
                1. +4
                  7 August 2021 12: 30
                  Reasonable reason. But I don’t know if horses shit in motion ...
                  1. +2
                    7 August 2021 13: 44
                    Of course they shit! Look at the Korets in St. Petersburg. laughing
                    1. +3
                      7 August 2021 13: 54
                      As far as I know, the movement of animal-drawn vehicles in St. Petersburg is prohibited in 2007. Only in designated areas.
                      1. +1
                        7 August 2021 14: 36
                        All carriages in St. Petersburg are equipped with a manure receiver.
                      2. +1
                        7 August 2021 14: 38
                        It's not about the manure, but about the death of the Sochi mayor's young daughter.
                      3. +1
                        7 August 2021 15: 39
                        I have not heard, can you give more details?
                      4. +4
                        7 August 2021 15: 44
                        In the summer of 2007, the five-year-old daughter of the Sochi mayor died under the wheels of a walking carriage, falling out of it after a wagon collided with a car. It was a very high-profile case.
                      5. +2
                        7 August 2021 16: 05
                        I do not remember.
                        Watching jumps, women - gold at Masha Lasitskene
                      6. +2
                        7 August 2021 16: 15
                        I'm glad for her. We are waiting for the fourth wave.
                  2. +6
                    7 August 2021 13: 48
                    They shit. And then a mini-olympiad in the village laughing - who is the first to pick up free fertilizer from the road to the shovel and send it to the beds Yes
                    1. +4
                      7 August 2021 14: 04
                      My compliments, Alex! hi
                      I did not even suspect you of such a rich life experience! request laughing drinks
                      1. +5
                        7 August 2021 14: 09
                        Good day! I watched it in the village (yeah-aavno) smile The grandmother grazed the geese and talked with her neighbor. A cart is past, and fertilizer is just on the road between the houses, and while the neighbor disappeared, the grandmother grabbed a shovel from under the fence, and the product to the beds Yes And the neighbor just came out with her shovel - and did not have time sad
                      2. +6
                        7 August 2021 14: 22
                        the grandmother grabbed a shovel from under the fence, and the product on the beds
                        "In the kulak economy, the bull's tail is a rope!" (WITH)
                    2. +2
                      7 August 2021 14: 49
                      Not only in the countryside. And Baron Falz-Fein did not disdain such.
                2. +6
                  7 August 2021 12: 32
                  Alexander,
                  Your opinion is clear, you proceed from modern pragmatism, so you can add, if you take a city, you need to calculate how many and who will die, who will clean up the corpses, the stench, etc.
                  NOBODY ON THIS REASON HAS BEEN FREEZING!
                  There is water - drink, no - endure or die, when preparing the campaign to Jin, the horses were protected and all the work was done by the soldiers themselves, including pulling carts, for example. The horses became more accessible - they took less care.
                  There is a goal - it must be solved, the rest is costs)
                  However, as it is now hi
                  1. +6
                    7 August 2021 12: 48
                    who will clean up the corpses
                    By the way, a very interesting question! Is this how the crusaders decided it after the capture of Jerusalem?
                  2. +1
                    7 August 2021 13: 43
                    If a military operation is organized, then the logistics are also enlightened. A horse can live without food for about a week, without water for 2-3 days. Likewise, man.
                    I'm talking about something else. Food supplies must be made and distributed as the unit progresses, and also delivered to the point of battle.
                    If the whole tumen reached its destination after starving for a week, then which one is a combat-ready unit?
                    "There is water - drink, no - endure or die" (c) You yourself wrote that the military leaders took care of the l / s, but based on this thesis, somehow this is not traced.
                    They would not have gone far from their steppes.
          2. +3
            7 August 2021 12: 41
            And with the help of horse manure in Moscow, they managed to grow melons.
          3. +5
            7 August 2021 13: 12
            Anton! hi
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            They are not needed, the horses themselves produce fuel.

            As it is just produced, it does not burn. It is necessary to dry.
            1. +6
              7 August 2021 13: 29
              My respect, Igor! hi
              You have just opened my eyes to the basic principle of Mongolian astronautics! Solid fuel only! laughing
              1. +6
                7 August 2021 13: 50
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                You have just opened my eyes to the basic principle of Mongolian astronautics! Solid fuel only!

                Oh, this Mongolian cosmonautics! Such small, unpretentious, hardy Mongolian solid-propellant rockets. laughing Moreover, each cosmonaut, in strict accordance with Yasa, must have three of these - two clockwork and one basic. laughing
                1. +4
                  7 August 2021 14: 16
                  Let me give you a little bit, these are not rockets, these are rocket stages.
                  "Per equus, ad astrum" is the motto of the Mongolian cosmonautics.
                  Please excuse my Latin, it is imperfect ... feel
                  1. +3
                    7 August 2021 14: 43
                    Rather "De equo"
                    1. +5
                      7 August 2021 14: 54
                      Yes, that's right. It's funny that the Roman "horsemen" derive the name from the stallion, and the European chivalry - from the mare.
                      1. +2
                        7 August 2021 15: 41
                        Didn't pay attention to it
              2. +1
                9 August 2021 11: 18
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                the basic principle of Mongolian cosmonautics!

                Mongolian cosmonautics is 5!
                I will take on "armament" hi
            2. +1
              7 August 2021 19: 49
              Khan, you are right: the dung was dried and together with dry weeds: tumbleweeds, kurai were used as fuel, but this "fuel" produced such an aroma. But it was hot
          4. +2
            11 August 2021 00: 55
            They are not needed, the horses themselves produce fuel.

            Oh. these children of asphalt! What do they not invent.
            1. +1
              11 August 2021 20: 04
              Forged, of course, Victor Nikolaeich! But I think I can make a combustible mixture of manure.
              1. +2
                11 August 2021 20: 20
                I have no doubt about that. There is a question of collection on the hike, time, quality and quantity of fuel received. I still caught this process.
                1. 0
                  11 August 2021 20: 38
                  gathering on a hike
                  You are still a Petersburg person!
                  1. +1
                    11 August 2021 20: 45
                    In the distant Soviet times, my wife and I loved to spend vacations in St. Petersburg.
                    1. +1
                      11 August 2021 20: 52
                      You told me. Peter has changed a lot since those days. Perhaps for the better. Come, I'll show you.
                      1. +1
                        11 August 2021 20: 57
                        For today, I have to fly through Vienna. Lived!
                      2. +1
                        11 August 2021 21: 12
                        Today, "a step to the right, a step to the left is an attempt to escape, a jump on the spot is a provocation." And now what? Buck up in the world of your own neighborhood?
                      3. +2
                        11 August 2021 21: 16
                        Why crowding? Traveling around the world has become much easier today. There would be money.
                        And I remember my first trip to the capitalist country in 1979. As a scout, they were thrown into the enemy's lair.
                      4. +1
                        11 August 2021 21: 39
                        Today it is much more difficult than three years ago. I do not yet understand the essence of the beneficiary margin, from all this fuss with covids, lockdowns, borders and so on.
                      5. +1
                        11 August 2021 21: 42
                        Everything secret sooner or later becomes apparent.
                      6. +1
                        11 August 2021 21: 48
                        The main thing is to comprehend the secret in time, and not to throw up your hands, like two Jews over boxes of sand.
        2. +1
          7 August 2021 12: 55
          The question arises about the real amount of the so-called. Mongol-Tatar troops.


          No more than 30 thousand in reality. Which is quite enough for those times when more than 90 percent of the population is employed in agricultural work.
      2. +3
        7 August 2021 12: 53
        Well, it's not serious, well, even 300 thousand in a single formation, this is a gigantic figure for those times, with such an army the Mongols would have reached Paris and Japan would have been conquered. In the best case, the number reached 30 thousand, which was undoubtedly a huge force for those times.
        1. 0
          7 August 2021 13: 51
          Quote: ViacheslavS
          In the best case, the number reached 30 thousand, which was undoubtedly a huge force for those times.

          Oha, oha. The Battle of Chiveto is a vivid confirmation of this. When 3-5000 relatively professional soldiers, without losses, in fact, killed 20-40.000 thousand herders and other farmers. The problem is that there were no professional warriors in the steppe, well, practically none. We do not take single inclusions into account. And before the massive armies and massive firearms, the crowd of farmers or sheep was just a crowd. Able to resist the pros only with absolutely fantastic ratios like 1 to 10-15. And the tales that the Mongols themselves comprehended the military science, as the flocks were grazing ... Let's forget this nonsense. For unscientific fiction.
          PS
          Remember the Kalmyks. And explain. Why did they not suddenly repeat the feats of their ancestors?
  7. +8
    7 August 2021 07: 16
    V. Yan's novels about Genghis Khan and Batu, the struggle Dal ad Dina re-read as a child. There is also a good novel by I. Kalashnikov "The Cruel Age".
    It seems that the mechanism of chiefdom is in any case within the framework of the broader structure of the transition from the clan system to the neighboring-territorial community. Has there been a transition? Great question. On the other hand, it is precisely this that can explain the constant reproduction of nomadic "empires", since the process of transition from a clan society to a territorial community did not succeed.

    So it seems that tribal relations have not disappeared from the life of the Buryats, Tuvinians, Khakassians, Altai, Kazakhs and Mongols. Each representative of these peoples, today, knows his belonging to a certain genus, and older representatives are organizers and stewards of holidays and ceremonies.

    Despite the fact that he strictly followed his line of government, it was not the fruit of his authoritarian, "cannibalistic" aspirations, but the result of collective decisions.

    The meeting - the council of respected people (Kurultai) was held at a certain time, the goals of such a meeting were not only the election of the leader.

    Livestock could not be an object of accumulation, but its death affected a rich relative more than a poor one.

    Livestock, its number and now is a measure of the degree of wealth among the above-named peoples.

    By empire, the nomads meant the slave or half-slave obedience of everyone who met on the way. Let me remind you that only the Mongols were subjects, all the rest were "slaves". As in the case of the Russian “tribute to the poor,” they were simply interested in food and the more, the better, so tax collection was at the mercy of adventurers from the Near and Middle East.

    I always thought that slaves were not taxed. Vassals (conquered states or tribal associations) are not slaves.

    In this case, there is no need to talk about any empire, or even more so a state in the full sense of the word.

    There are signs of a state (empire): ruler, advisers, kurultai, army, borders.
  8. +5
    7 August 2021 07: 38
    but consisted of Kipchaks, Polovtsy, etc.,
    The Kipchaks are the self-name of the Polovtsians.
    Thanks Edward!
    1. +6
      7 August 2021 09: 33
      Anton, good morning!
      The Kipchaks Desht-i Kipchaks occupied a much larger territory than their western part, the Polovtsians.
      They had a huge influence at the court of the last Khorezm Shah. And it was precisely the "chase" for the tributaries, the Kipchak shepherds, that Chinggis Khan used as a pretext for further campaigns by the Mongols after the conquest of Khorezm.
      hi
      1. +4
        7 August 2021 09: 37
        Edward! hi
        Well, who were called "Kumans" then?
        1. +6
          7 August 2021 09: 57
          Byzantines, and after them other Europeans, Polovtsians.
          Yours faithfully,
          hi
          1. +3
            7 August 2021 10: 19
            Byzantines, and after them other Europeans,
            I know that. Only the Polovtsians or the Kipchaks in general?
            1. +4
              7 August 2021 10: 30
              Anton,
              I think the Polovtsians, the Byzantines hurt something they knew about all the Kipchaks)
              hi
              1. +2
                7 August 2021 10: 34
                Thanks for the clarification, Edward! hi
                1. +2
                  7 August 2021 11: 52
                  Always happy!
                  hi
                  1. +4
                    7 August 2021 12: 00
                    By the way, when you come back to Moscow, be sure to go to the "Iron Age" at the State Historical Museum. The exhibition is gorgeous!
                    1. +3
                      7 August 2021 12: 01
                      Anton,
                      I will definitely go, Thank you for telling me! hi
                      1. +3
                        7 August 2021 12: 06
                        And purchase the catalog. I didn't have time, I was very upset, but Sergei Mikhailov got it out of an acquaintance. Now I don't even know which is better, an exhibition or a paper supplement to it.
                      2. +2
                        7 August 2021 12: 08
                        Great, I got it good
                      3. +2
                        7 August 2021 18: 36
                        They are also good: an exhibition, a catalog and a good friend.
                        The latter is better: exhibitions are held, catalogs? You can live without him, but it's hard without a good friend
                    2. +3
                      7 August 2021 16: 49
                      Anton, probably, someone hates the exhibition and stuck to you -
                      1. +3
                        7 August 2021 16: 58
                        I honestly don't care.
                        Vera! hi
                      2. +2
                        7 August 2021 17: 33
                        Ai, nonsense! "Enemy of the State" is on RenTV. Cool movie!
                      3. +1
                        7 August 2021 17: 40
                        Yes. I recommend immediately watching the movie "The Rippers".
                      4. +1
                        7 August 2021 17: 52
                        Damn, my friend, I'm talking about something else. If it's possible there !!!! What is going on with us ?????
                      5. +4
                        7 August 2021 18: 01
                        "- Pendalf, tell me, what's going on in the world?
                        - All the way, Fyodor Mikhalych. They steal and throw, shoot and rob ... In general, a normal human life is going on. "(C)
                      6. +2
                        7 August 2021 17: 54
                        Oh, guilty! Another film, in parallel with "The Rippers".
                        "Law abiding citizen".
                      7. +1
                        7 August 2021 18: 05
                        Buddy !!! Excellent too !!!!!
                      8. +2
                        7 August 2021 18: 10
                        In general, it is better to watch Guy Ritchie! Except for the period when he was married to Madonna.
                      9. +2
                        7 August 2021 19: 15
                        How wonderful Butler is !!;
                      10. +1
                        7 August 2021 19: 21
                        Butler is great!
                      11. +1
                        7 August 2021 20: 57
                        That's noticeable. And they try not to touch you especially. Why can't I say
                      12. 0
                        7 August 2021 21: 01
                        What? Explain, please?
                      13. +2
                        7 August 2021 21: 06
                        I did not notice that someone showed open antipathy towards you.
                      14. +2
                        7 August 2021 21: 16
                        I'm a jester. Who can show open antipathy to me? Who will allow his own "nose" to sink to the level of a "fool"? Convenient position, don't you think?
                      15. +2
                        8 August 2021 10: 57
                        However, you are far from being a fool, this is also noticeable
                      16. +2
                        8 August 2021 11: 00
                        this is also noticeable
                        So, you need to mask yourself more carefully! laughing
                        Thank you! love
  9. +7
    7 August 2021 07: 55
    And what is characteristic, not a single nomadic empire that arose did not last long.
    1. +7
      7 August 2021 08: 04
      This is how Vaschenko explains the reasons.
      Alexey! hi
      1. +5
        7 August 2021 09: 17
        hi Anton, on the basis of these reasons, I summarize, they are not the first, but by the way the last, there were no more such empires. And robbery did not lead to the further development of feudal relations. There is no good from someone else's beaver. smile
        1. +4
          7 August 2021 09: 30
          there were no more such empires.
          It could well have developed in South America. It is very curious how the confrontation between the Incas and the Araucanians would have ended if the Spaniards had not intervened.
          1. +5
            7 August 2021 09: 39
            The Spaniards intervened and recognized the independence of the Araucanians in 1773, albeit on a limited territory. But here it is somewhat different, social relations did not work out, there was no slave system in the classical sense, feudal, had not thought to emerge yet. And the Incas with the Araucanians, cattle breeders were not ...
            1. +3
              7 August 2021 09: 46
              Is animal husbandry an obligatory factor in the conflict between sedentary and nomads?
              1. +5
                7 August 2021 09: 54
                Anton, have you read the article? Another example, the conflict between the nomadic Hunu and the Chinese. Cattle must be grazed somewhere, when there is a lot of it, and when there is nowhere, it is necessary to rob someone, "not we, life is like that" (c)
                1. +5
                  7 August 2021 10: 16
                  I read it again. The article nowhere indicates that the crisis of overproduction in cattle breeding was the cause of the onslaught of the nomads. Against:
                  "Ordinary members often simply could not exist in order not to get food from the outside, so they were often the initiators of the campaigns."
                  1. +4
                    7 August 2021 11: 29
                    Correctly written, one of the reasons, overproduction is not a constant thing, today it exists, tomorrow it will not. Like slash-and-burn agriculture, the land is depleted, a new one must be looked for.
                    1. +2
                      7 August 2021 11: 36
                      Oh, I still can't "squeeze" Sergei (Korsar4) to finish writing an article about POZ ...
          2. +1
            7 August 2021 19: 23
            And cocaine, isn't it? laughing
            1. +1
              7 August 2021 19: 28
              No! This is what I have never tried for sure, this is the "first".
              1. +2
                7 August 2021 19: 44
                And don't! And who "squeezed" his article, eh? Waiting! To discuss. By the way, the style is impressive!
  10. +6
    7 August 2021 08: 21
    After all, even now "the destruction of unnecessary competitors in food and reproduction" is taking place. The methods have only changed.
    1. +4
      7 August 2021 09: 14
      And what's your method? laughing

      Good morning, Sergey!
      1. +4
        7 August 2021 09: 21
        Good morning, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!

        To be happy.
        1. +6
          7 August 2021 10: 07
          Oh, how I understand it!

          For example, do I need a lot? I am ready to be happy within the limits of my limited material possibilities. The adopted state system "Get rich, who can!" Is trying to encourage me to money-grubbing, but nothing works for me. But this has stirred up in the morals of many - cockroach, or the natural instinct of sanrancia: we will eat out everything that we meet on the way!
          The article is good. There is nothing to be proud of those who declare themselves to be the descendants of the Chigizids, or who they were there, and claim, if not on the territory of neighboring states, then at least for respect for this reason. For what to respect? What cultural and technological contributions have these hordes of eternally hungry horsemen made to civilization?
          1. +2
            7 August 2021 11: 54
            Each can be caught with a hook.
            1. +2
              7 August 2021 12: 10
              To do this, you need to create such inappropriate conditions of existence that the hook seems to be a suitable way out of this situation.
              I mean those who did not expect to be caught.
              But there are those who themselves are looking for a hook in the hope of deceiving and eating the fisherman.
              1. +2
                7 August 2021 12: 35
                Rarely does anyone see the full picture.
                Each judge from his own six.
                1. +2
                  7 August 2021 13: 26
                  Oh how! )))
                  Famously you jumped from the hook to the spectator pole. From a fish to a candle. Only after all, a cricket can be used as bait wassat )))
                  1. +3
                    7 August 2021 13: 57
                    "A cobra has a bite, a mongoose has a jump" (c).
                    1. +3
                      7 August 2021 14: 02
                      King Cobra is a fearsome contender!
                      Hello, Sergey!
                      1. +3
                        7 August 2021 14: 29
                        Hello Seryozha!

                        The world of literature is great and versatile.
                        And if there are unfamiliar nooks and crannies, all the more interesting.

                        "- And I eat an apple and look out the window" (c).
                      2. +3
                        7 August 2021 15: 28
                        Seryozha, welcome! )))
                        Any snake is a fiend of hell. No wonder the forerunners of surrealism from the Middle Ages included her in their paintings as an assistant to the devil.
                      3. +4
                        7 August 2021 16: 07
                        The Angevin dynasty will not agree with you.
                      4. Fat
                        +3
                        7 August 2021 18: 45
                        I will disagree. I am more sympathetic to nagas - a symbol of wisdom from Hinduism and Buddhism than the Old Testament representation of a serpent ...
                        The nagas kept the truth secret until people were ripe to understand it. Nagami populated the spaces of Mahatala and Patala (Nagaloka)
                      5. +3
                        7 August 2021 18: 56
                        Quetzalcoatl with you, Andrey! hi
                        Here they cannot understand the Mongols, and you about the peculiarities of theology ...
                      6. Fat
                        +3
                        7 August 2021 19: 26
                        What's wrong with the Mongols? Edward opened the topic well.
                        Genghis Khan (Temuchin) is a naive, uncivilized person, he didn’t save up wealth, he robbed and robbed solely in order to distribute the loot to the starving Mongol people ... We must wait until Edward writes about the Chingizids, these are a little civilized, their raids are already more racket remind...
                      7. +2
                        7 August 2021 20: 15
                        I wonder if Genghis Khan knew that he was a Mongol?
                      8. Fat
                        +3
                        7 August 2021 21: 04
                        Apparently the Chinese knew it request
                        Temuchin with self-identification did not seem to bother too much.
                      9. +1
                        7 August 2021 21: 11
                        The Chinese did not know this either.
                      10. +1
                        7 August 2021 23: 31
                        And the "Malachite Box" sparkled with new colors.
                      11. +1
                        7 August 2021 17: 45
                        The snakes were compared to the snake, the reptile. Remember: "wind up the clock with a bastard" Rybakov "Dirk"
                    2. +2
                      7 August 2021 14: 52
                      Always on the fuzzy side! A snake? I hate everyone!!!
                      1. +3
                        7 August 2021 15: 30
                        Always on the fuzzy side! A snake? I hate everyone!!!

                        Right! So us, snakes, so us! wassat )))
                      2. +2
                        7 August 2021 15: 34
                        Lyudochka! Yakovlevna! Yes, I ... I just love you !!!! And I am fascinated by you !!!!! Honestly!
                      3. +3
                        7 August 2021 15: 42
                        Oh guys, how nice it is with you precious ones! hi
                      4. +2
                        7 August 2021 16: 11
                        About them. The most poisonous taipan. Lives? Thank God it's far away! In Australia!
                      5. +2
                        7 August 2021 17: 23
                        "They distributed masks of rabbits,
                        Elephants and alcoholics.
                        All this zoo was appointed ”(c).
                    3. +1
                      7 August 2021 16: 42
                      "Riki Tiki Tavi" is how the mongoose father taught his son.
                      1. +1
                        7 August 2021 17: 23
                        That's right, Vera.
                  2. +3
                    7 August 2021 14: 05
                    Sounds like my precious friend, have you stepped on my slippery slope? laughing Do you need it?
            2. +3
              7 August 2021 13: 40
              "And you, Stirlitz, I'll ask you to stay." (WITH)
              1. +4
                7 August 2021 14: 08
                "- Executioner, chopping block and a glass of vodka" (c).
                1. +4
                  7 August 2021 14: 28
                  "Sentenced to death, ate breakfast with gusto" (C)
                  1. +4
                    7 August 2021 14: 32
                    "But there was one who did not shoot" (c).
                    1. +3
                      7 August 2021 14: 50
                      Ai, bravo, friends!
                  2. +3
                    7 August 2021 14: 54
                    And can I have a glass ... and not execute? Then someday. If there is a desire.
                2. +2
                  7 August 2021 16: 36
                  Sergey, "corsair" I remember a slightly different edition: "hangman here and vodka. Vodka for me" so says Peter 1 in the TV series "Young Russia"
                  1. +2
                    7 August 2021 17: 26
                    "An ordinary miracle".
                    The king continues: “I have vodka. The rest is for him. "

                    “Young Russia” has not been revised for a long time.
                    And whoever does not demand vodka.
                    1. +1
                      7 August 2021 20: 21
                      And, in fact, it is true: the king wanted to execute his minister and shouted that.
                      "Young Russia" also has not been revisited for a long time
                      1. 0
                        7 August 2021 20: 39
                        This film can be all about quotes. As well as "That same Munchausen".
                      2. 0
                        7 August 2021 20: 55
                        For some reason, Munchausen did not seem to me
                      3. 0
                        7 August 2021 21: 24
                        But the Baroness might have liked her.
        2. +1
          14 August 2021 13: 15
          Be happy! Ndddaaa! This is not given to many! I envy, damn it!
          1. 0
            14 August 2021 13: 22
            Seryozha, you can probably find a personal recipe for everyone.

            In any case, I suggest starting with a smile.
            Is there a need for a mirror? Or can you handle this?
            Long and sincere.
  11. +4
    7 August 2021 09: 54
    This is what I liked:
    The wise Khitan Yeluyu Chutsai, "long beard", Chingiz's adviser, had to explain how profitable it was to tax the technologically advanced Song and Jin empire, rather than, as the representatives of the "military party" suggested, "kill everyone" and turn the Chinese fields into pastures.


    Further, for the gathering of people behaving like locusts, difficulties arose of a natural nature:

    With the reduction of the limits of military expansion, the robbery of all already plundered and the growth of natural combat losses, the incommensurability of the costs of the war and the income from the war, and this time coincided with the reign of Mongke (d. 1259), taxes and constant receipts begin to excite the Mongol elite. A classic symbiosis of nomads and farmers is formed: in the Far East, this was the empire of the Yuan dynasty. And for a hundred years it was followed by the disintegration of the nomadic empire, just as it happened with many of its predecessors, much smaller in scale.


    The pathetic ending of Bodrov's film is not very clear to me. Is that her political engagement, but not in her own garden.
    1. +3
      7 August 2021 11: 02
      The pathetic ending of Bodrov's film is not very clear to me.
      It seemed to me not pretentious, but open.
      Hello, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! hi
      1. +2
        7 August 2021 11: 08
        Hello Anton!)))
      2. +2
        7 August 2021 14: 06
        Yeah !!!! To the point !!!;
  12. +2
    7 August 2021 10: 49
    One tumen is usually not 10 thousand, but much less. No one counted the men over their heads to organize the tumen. Tumen in non-war times is an administrative unit. In one of the tumens appointed by Genghis Khan there were only 500 men in general, in others from one to several thousand. Full tumen sent on especially important missions could well contain 7 thousand soldiers. Along the way, they became overgrown with other adventurers from foreign peoples, to whom, however, the Mongols did not have any confidence.
    1. +1
      7 August 2021 16: 27
      Colleague Trebuntsev, taught at school: "tumen" -10 000
      "The Mongols did not have any trust" of course: adventurers without clan and tribe are capable of betraying at any moment
      1. +1
        7 August 2021 18: 56
        I also heard so at school. But no one counted exactly 10 thousand. Genghis Khan specially introduced the division by tumen in order to remove the tribal division of the Mongols. I wanted to instill in them the awareness of my unity. Only a few tribes recognized themselves as Mongols, others called themselves by the name of the tribe. He even forbade the Mongols attached to specific tumens to move to other tumens and tumens assigned to the khans, to go to other khans. The Mongols before him, in fact, were serfs of the noyons, he enslaved them even more. After his death, the tumen left, after all. As far as I remember, one of the 4 tumens appointed by Jochi rather quickly left him later.
  13. +2
    7 August 2021 11: 32
    It seemed to me not pretentious, but open.


    Anton, it so happened that the hand slipped, the finger rested on the send, sent! Began to supplement, but the time has expired.
    In general, the creative intelligentsia is like that. Who pays, he and his ideas through it. I don't like both - the one who sends and the one who is the guide.
    1. +4
      7 August 2021 11: 54
      The scientific intelligentsia also does not feed on the holy spirit. Gone are the days of half-starved single handicraftsmen like Goodyear.
      1. +3
        7 August 2021 12: 36
        "- And the compote?" (with).
        1. +2
          7 August 2021 12: 40
          "And when will the candy be given?" (FROM)
          1. +2
            7 August 2021 12: 44
            “- Chop off his head. Tunnel "(c).
            1. +1
              7 August 2021 12: 52
              "And the head rolled,
              At the feet of the beautiful queen. "(C)
              1. +2
                7 August 2021 13: 56
                “- And I need princesses for nothing.
                I will win the Miracle Yuda anyway ”(c).
                1. +3
                  7 August 2021 14: 33
                  "Hobbits are not only valuable fur, but also 30-40 kilograms of high-calorie, easily digestible meat" (C)
                  1. +2
                    7 August 2021 14: 42
                    "The weather was great,
                    The princess was terrible ”(c).
            2. +1
              7 August 2021 19: 42
              I remember, I remember this cartoon, and there was also a cartoon: "In the land of unlearned lessons," it seems like that. There Perestukin and a cat hit: one and a half mole rats, an elephant is lighter than its weight
              1. 0
                7 August 2021 20: 36
                And I also like from “Vovka in the Far Away Kingdom”: “Eh, you! Unfortunate sprat! "
        2. 0
          7 August 2021 16: 17
          Quote from Korsar4
          "- And the compote?" (with).

          "Operation Y and Shurik's Other Adventures"
          1. +1
            7 August 2021 17: 29
            Of course, not so-so intellectual, but how charming.
            1. 0
              7 August 2021 20: 04
              As well as the film itself: nothing like that, but how much sincere joy and warmth. After the film
      2. +4
        7 August 2021 12: 49
        And yet I would choose from whom to take the money. For example, the message of the film "Genghis Khan. The Great Mongol" by the Japanese director Shinichiro Sawai is clear. Under the idea of ​​uniting the clans by Genghis Khan, the Japanese "dream" of uniting all their lands, as it were, is brought up. Bodrov does not care about the idea. I did what I ordered.
        Customers - who? Russia, Germany and ... Kazakhstan, how cute! And how significant it is! Like, I am the heir, Kazakhstan. Despite the fact that the nomads who lived in the territory now called sovereign Kazakhstan did not create their own statehood of the modern type. But suddenly the pathos of the wild hordes awoke. With which yesterday's nomads were suddenly filled thanks to the efforts of the "creative intelligentsia", fostered with love in the international Soviet era - both laughter and sin! Who prompted something?
        In Mongolia, they don't like the film, instead of the film they see a number of "shoals".
        Our filthy time. Nobody told the remark about what to write about. The soul was simply on fire. And no one told Alexander Minaev what to write about in "Dukhless. The Story of a Fake Man." But there were those who perverted the book, making a movie on it. Here the author chose the money. Contrary to the truth of his hero. Such a time.
        1. +1
          7 August 2021 13: 05
          You know, Lyudmila Yaklvlevna, I just watched the film and I liked it.
          "And your Galya, she's spoiled too!" (WITH) laughing
          As for the jambs in historical cinema, everyone has them, even the scrupulous Englishmen.
          1. +2
            7 August 2021 14: 17
            I would say, hefty is harmful)))
            Just because of the habit of looking for "Who is to blame and what to do?" Oh, how wonderful the main character is in a Japanese film! The real Genghis Khan must have been ugly, and in some, I don't remember, in what kind of Hollywood he is presented as the embodiment of absolute evil.
            1. +2
              7 August 2021 15: 25
              And who saw. The real Chingiz? Who saw Alexander? Nevsky? Controversial! Macedonian?
              1. +2
                7 August 2021 15: 30
                "- Have you seen Lenin? What is he like? They say, crooked and oblique ...
                - Vrhut! Oprhedeleno, vrhut! "(C)
                1. +2
                  7 August 2021 15: 40
                  Here Lenin, do not touch! For? Tatra with the enemies of the Communists will come! Ugh, ugh, ugh !!!!!
                  1. +3
                    7 August 2021 15: 49
                    Mediocre insane propagandists are not interesting to me. I'll call Ol'govich as an exorcist.
                    Chesslovo, with the Doctor, as a conductor of communist ideas, it was fascinating to discuss. Tatra is complete squalor.
                    1. +1
                      7 August 2021 16: 13
                      Olgovich? I like Andre!
                      1. +4
                        7 August 2021 16: 17
                        Also obsessed, but reasoned. Although sometimes from his double standards I fall into a stupor.
                      2. +1
                        7 August 2021 19: 35
                        Greetings Sergey. Olgovich as an expert on communism is something. Although this also makes sense: Olgovich, in order to confront us, the supporters of socialism, needs to know the material well
                        PS. Perhaps socialism collapsed due to the fact that our leadership was engaged in formalism, and not in deed. Comrades, remember the burden of decaying capitalism? Often the agitators were far from being exemplary citizens
                    2. +2
                      7 August 2021 16: 21
                      Ideas of communism? By themselves, they are gorgeous! But it didn’t work out? Nowhere. Why? Perhaps because they are designed for the IDEAL of a person? There were attempts, the result?
                      1. +3
                        7 August 2021 16: 29
                        Quote: Phil77
                        Ideas of communism? By themselves, they are gorgeous! But it didn’t work out? Nowhere. Why?

                        Look how and how many years capitalism was established in Europe, the first attempts to build capitalist relations were still in the Italian city-states. And the same didn't work.))))
                      2. +2
                        7 August 2021 16: 39
                        Oh, buddy! Little, little time.
                      3. +2
                        7 August 2021 16: 31
                        Ideas are good, but here is the process of achieving them ... And the most important thing: ideologues by no means strive to be at the forefront of donating blood in the process of reaching ideas.
                      4. +2
                        7 August 2021 16: 37
                        Here !!!! My friend! As Sasha speaks and writes, personality is important! And our age is not rich in this! XX? Slightly better. With a plus or minus sign? But richer.
                    3. +1
                      7 August 2021 17: 35
                      I agree, she is primitive and monotonous
                      1. +2
                        7 August 2021 17: 43
                        "As the enemies of the communists say - Carthage must be destroyed"
                2. +1
                  7 August 2021 16: 24
                  By the way! From this movie, buddy, wait for the song !! laughing
              2. +1
                7 August 2021 16: 06
                Maybe they were invented? What: if there are no witnesses
                1. +1
                  7 August 2021 16: 14
                  Faith! May it be for you!
                  1. 0
                    7 August 2021 20: 59
                    Continued your thought
              3. +3
                7 August 2021 16: 32
                And who saw the real.

                Well, I once came across eyewitness accounts of those times. That's when the dear author comes to the topic, I'll look.
                I remember that the unprepossessing was a nomadic ruler, and the Macedonian was a handsome man.
                1. +2
                  7 August 2021 16: 42
                  Played by ???? Mark Antony remember? Hollywood, sir! Hollywood!
                2. +2
                  7 August 2021 17: 01
                  Oh !!!! Handsome! Farrell! Macedonian?
                3. +1
                  7 August 2021 17: 18
                  Burton? Like ... I mean Cleopatra! laughing

                  .
          2. +2
            7 August 2021 15: 22
            Yes, buddy! Even the greats! It happens.
          3. +1
            7 August 2021 15: 32
            Ridley Scott is an American Ican. laughing Verhoeven?
    2. +2
      7 August 2021 15: 20
      My friend! You are not an intellectual! You are a mathematician! What does possession of a profession mean! You, my adored friend-pro !!!!! Let me admire you?
      1. +3
        7 August 2021 16: 36
        To whom - to Anton? So he's a builder wassat )))
        And if to me, do not call names, please! I'm not an intellectual !!!
        1. +3
          7 August 2021 16: 49
          You! You, adored I had in mind! That I pointed out! Anton I respect! I love you! For? Thank God, not a fagot !!!!
  14. -1
    7 August 2021 12: 01
    Well, what about the state of Tartary, which included Mongolia.
    1. -1
      7 August 2021 15: 45
      The collapse of the USSR is similar. Everyone who was part of the commonwealth began to pour dirt on the founder. Dialectical materialism presupposes development in a spiral. Let's wait for unification - there are prerequisites.
      1. +1
        7 August 2021 16: 45
        With whom? With whom is there a desire to unite? And most importantly, who is asking for it?
        1. -2
          7 August 2021 17: 52
          The minutes of the meeting and official documents, as in the case of Crimea, I cannot show, I am not saying this out of nowhere. Armenia asked, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Luhansk and Donetsk regions. Negotiations are underway with Belarus, we have good relations with Mongolia and China. You can make many claims to me. This is my opinion. Although the loopholes in the Chinese wall look towards China.
          1. +1
            7 August 2021 19: 03
            No, dear! Forgive me, but in Moscow there are already many of these "willing"! Do you need them? Question!
  15. -1
    7 August 2021 13: 46
    .. there are a lot of mathematicians on the site - interpolate from the present into the past. You will be convinced that these same Mongols were cried by the cat .. The Chinese cut out these very * Mongols * for the slightest disobedience .. On the border with China stood the Scythians who were forced to leave due to desertification. There was simply nothing to eat .. The mounds remained and there were excavations. And the Chinese wall appeared for a reason .. The liberated lands * were occupied by the Mongols *, from whom the first khan appeared in the 20th century ... Nyons and Toyons were ..
  16. +3
    7 August 2021 15: 24
    Colleagues, Edward, good afternoon. I was waiting for the Mongols yesterday, but they did not have time to get there.
    My last days have been tough. In addition, the light disappeared: the phone could not be charged. Therefore, I apologize in advance for the harm
    1. +1
      7 August 2021 17: 22
      Quote: Astra wild2
      I was waiting for the Mongols yesterday, but they did not have time to get there.

      Mongols never stay late and are not late, they come exactly when they see fit.)))
      Quote: Astra wild2
      My last days have been tough. In addition, the light disappeared: the phone could not be charged.

      Everything passes, Sentyabrinka hon, it also passes. love
      1. +2
        7 August 2021 17: 37
        "Ah, these Mongols!
        Mom, a thunderstorm burns my heart!
        Ah, these horses, these bows, these eyes! "
        1. +1
          7 August 2021 19: 37
          "The trumpet voice still rumbles,
          But Bagatur is already in the saddle.
          Do not promise young maiden
          Eternal love on earth, "
          1. +2
            7 August 2021 20: 00
            "In one incredible ride,
            You have lived your short century
            And your yurts, your "backers",
            Snow fell asleep "
          2. +2
            7 August 2021 21: 03
            "Don't Promise a Young Maiden" a romance from the movie: "Captivating Star of Happiness"
      2. +1
        7 August 2021 19: 54
        Han, thank you for the rose. We women are not indifferent to flowers
    2. +1
      7 August 2021 19: 37
      The classic just suggests itself! "The plane is good! The helicopter is good! And the deer are better!" Vera! You are not repeatable! laughing
    3. +3
      7 August 2021 20: 59
      Good evening,
      I do not define the layout of materials
      hi
  17. -5
    7 August 2021 15: 27
    Drink the pickle .. by What the hell is a nomadic empire? You yourself, at least believe in this nonsense wassat
    1. +4
      7 August 2021 15: 57
      Colleague Alekseev, poking a stranger is not very polite, in this case, look: the author is a Ph.D. is not very smart. The author, if he wants, will find 10 arguments to dishonor his opponent
      1. +1
        7 August 2021 21: 51
        I apologize to the author. But honestly, these nonsense about nomadic empires were imposed in my teeth. All dogs are hanged on these unfortunate nomads. Even if you even seven spans organize a nomad to build a state, it's a terrible thing. The maximum that they can be encouraged. And then the routine begins. Harvesting hay, roaming on winter roads and other crap. And then there are such supermen, and even with such intellectual potential. In one generation, master the whole science of building a state. Though cut me, but I do not believe .wassat And to trump the crusts of a candidate, and besides, a historian ... stop
        1. 0
          8 August 2021 10: 54
          The nomads are quite capable of attacking and plundering the city. At that time, cities were no match for today's megalopolises. Probably up to 3-5 thousand inhabitants, which means the garrison is no more than 200 people. Such a city was real to take
  18. +1
    7 August 2021 15: 43
    Thinking about Genghis Khan and the role of the Mongols in world history, one should not forget that the first states on the territory of Central Asia, Mongolia, Manchuria, Siberia existed since the XNUMXth-XNUMXrd centuries BC. The flourishing of the Turkic kaganates falls on the second half of the first millennium of our era.

    Batka Makhno's army numbered up to 100 thousand people. Now adjust for the more unpretentiousness of people and horses and a much larger area.
  19. +1
    7 August 2021 15: 51
    Valeriy, I have always believed that: "consensus" is agreement, and if so, then "consensus" is agreed.
    In this case, the power that rests on authority is an authoritarian power
    1. +3
      7 August 2021 17: 13
      Yeah! This is serious! In essence of what has been said? You are right. Putin is an authority!? Or "a consensual person"? That's purely your opinion, eh?
      1. 0
        7 August 2021 20: 49
        He is a supporter of authoritarian rule. But he also coordinates his decisions with someone. Putin is secretive by nature, he has learned the "professional" trait of politicians, pretense and hypocrisy. But you can notice when he does not like something, although he tries not to show
      2. +4
        7 August 2021 21: 10
        Sergey,
        Good evening,
        I would make a correction to the formulation of the question: a person in management can act authoritarianly or not, there are no consensual personalities.
        And the power of the ruler can be consensual, i.e. a steady community and fellow citizens.
        At the same time, this ruler can rule authoritarianly.
        Another question is what is authoritarian. As a manager, I can say that almost all decisions can be perceived as authoritarian, even coordinated with subordinates.
        Departing from the concept, which, in my opinion, is rather primitive, of authoritarianism and totalitarianism, I would say that it is easier to define managerial decisions in terms of tyranny, formalism, then everything will fall into place.
        From this point of view, until recently, Putin's power was consensual, not formally authoritarian. For comparison, Yeltsin was authoritarian, and his power was in 1990-1991 - consensual.
        hi
        1. +2
          9 August 2021 11: 34
          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          Departing from the concept, which, in my opinion, is rather primitive, of authoritarianism and totalitarianism

          I heard that the concept of "totalitarianism" and "democracy", which was so popular in the scientific community after the Second World War in the second half of the XNUMXth century, has already become a thing of the past.
          Greetings Edward,
          I'm late this time!
          I liked the article very much, read it with pleasure! hi
          1. +1
            9 August 2021 15: 12
            Sergey welcome
            Thank you!
            "totalitarianism" and "democracy"
            and autocracy, as I understand it, these terms were brought to us by "political scientists", recently I heard from one of them: we have collected a lot of comparative material on autocracies ...
            It seems to me that this is due to the fact that there is no desire to call a spade a spade, and the political structure still depends not on the personal qualities of the leader, but on the social structure of society. And second, sensations bring money, so many are trying to practice "totalitarianism" and "chiefdoms" as supposedly alternatives to the formation theory.
            hi
            1. 0
              9 August 2021 15: 26
              consensual, i.e. a steady community and fellow citizens.

              Now, as far as I understand, the type of state (no matter what) is considered as a "regime" that suits society, hence the concept of "totalitarianism" as a society that exists only on fear and suppression becomes irrelevant.
              If I understood the current trends correctly, of course. hi
              1. +1
                9 August 2021 16: 18
                It seems to me so too ... but it takes Dale away from the real state of affairs)
                hi
  20. +2
    7 August 2021 17: 23
    "do not discount the personal factor and the leader's charisma" these factors are necessary for politicians. For example, V.V. Zhirenovsky has charisma, and other politicians cannot boast of such charisma.
  21. +2
    7 August 2021 21: 44
    One thing is certain. Mongols who live in Mongolia have nothing to do with Genghis Khan.
  22. -2
    8 August 2021 04: 55
    .. has anyone seen Mongolians competing in water sports ..?
  23. -1
    8 August 2021 19: 25
    The demand of the Mongols for the issuance of bowmakers from the Jin Empire, just testifies to the fact that they got acquainted with more advanced bows already during the invasions, both in the states of China and Central Asia. The famous Xia master of bows, Chan-ba-jin, was personally represented at the khan's court. A harsh warrior and defender of the steppe traditions, Subedei, according to Mongol law, wanted to destroy all the inhabitants of Kaifeng, the capital of the Golden Empire for many months of resistance. But it all ended with the issuance of archery masters, gunsmiths and goldsmiths, and the city was preserved.

    Why does this indicate familiarity with more advanced bows? In my opinion, this testifies to the desire to disarm a population that outnumber the conquerors by orders of magnitude. The author sees everything as he wants and more than once interprets the events as he sees fit. laughing
  24. 0
    8 August 2021 19: 32
    Not understood!? Is this an ancient Star Wars story? Like the time when the first Jedi did not even understand and did not know the concept of power? Or, what?
  25. 0
    8 August 2021 20: 27
    And I liked most of all:
    «Since at the onset of the hour of death [the treasures] do not bring any benefit, and it is impossible to return from the other world, we will keep our treasures in our hearts, and all that is in cash and that is prepared or [what else] will come will be given to our subjects and to those in need to glorify their good name ".
    .That would put into the head of modern oligarchs and syakim bureaucrats who only grab and seize.
  26. +1
    8 August 2021 23: 39
    All empires exist thanks to plunder and violence, and how, then, in the Mongol or other nomadic Turkic empires, in principle, differ from the classical European Greco-Roman or South American? The Romans had a popular militia - a legion, and the Mongols had a tumen. The Russians simply went east and took yasak, having stopped doing it only in America, since on the other hand, Western colleagues in the dangerous business approached.
  27. +4
    9 August 2021 10: 17
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    They'll dig up in some cave, even in Panama, drawings of EBRs like ... Well, let Majestic. AND??? Will you start building theories about the Panamanian mega-fleet of the early 20th century ???

    And you don't need to write nonsense, right?
  28. 0
    13 August 2021 20: 12
    Edward, it is difficult to link the economic and political structure of the nomads with their success in the military field.
    To begin with, cavalry and infantry, bow and spear are just tools. The question is in their application. There are many examples of spear infantry destroying the larger rifle cavalry. And vice versa.
    The only thing I would point out is that this is not a matter of nomadism / agriculture. And in the simplest operational uranium - "the force breaks the straw"
    With an approximately equal technical level, quantity wins. With a lower technical level, a greater quantitative advantage is simply needed.
    An interesting question is where does such a quantitative advantage of the East come from? Is there a volcano constantly erupting crowds of people?
    The second question - they had no advantage at all over the peoples of Central Asia, did they?
    I cannot answer this question. The huge and strong formation of Central Asia fell like a house of cards with a full and quantitative and qualitative advantage over the conventional Mongols
    1. 0
      1 November 2021 14: 34
      The huge and powerful formation of Central Asia fell like a house of cards with a full and quantitative and qualitative advantage over the conventional Mongols


      Conditional ... to start with the fact that Temuchin cannot be called a Mongol in full measure. His nationality is not so important, at that time it did not really matter.
      More importantly, he initially served in the regular army of the Manchus, whose empire was located in northern China. He was not a nomad, but a professional soldier, moreover, a commander, an officer, so to speak.
      You can draw an analogy with Spartacus.
      Temuchin was convicted, was able to escape and, in fact, raised a riot, unleashed a civil war.
      Despite his talents, he himself could not win, but skillfully used the enmity with the southern, true Chinese, asking them for military help. It was only by relying on the resources of southern China that he was able to crush the Manchus. Moreover, he defeated them not on the battlefield, but caused a massive famine in their state, destroying the irrigation system. Then he attacked yesterday's allies and thus subdued all of China.
      Actually, local nomads (Mongols and other tribes) did not play such a big role in this whole story.
      Well, the Jesuit gentlemen simply attributed the campaigns to the west.
  29. 0
    23 August 2021 07: 09
    Quote: Vashchenko E.
    Thus, the Mongolian Khitan tribe hunted with 500 thousand horsemen.

    belay
    everything in this sentence is great, especially the numbers.
    but I, as an amateur, would remove 2-3 zeros.
  30. 0
    24 September 2021 12: 55
    as on your website ranks are assigned, there are already marshals. Th if you write complementary comments, then the rank will be raised, and if not, they will be demoted.
  31. 0
    31 October 2021 20: 06
    A wonderful article, the author is, as you can see, a thinking person.

    But one should take into account that ideologists of different times and states composed a lot in order to hide a significant part of the history of our Fatherland - the history of "the people in which Genghis Khan was born," whose name and self-designation was nothing more than "Tatar" (Russian academician - orientalist V.P. Vasiliev, XIX century) - moreover, this people never spoke the language that we now call "Mongolian" (aka).
    The compilers of the official history course concealed the very fact of the existence of medieval Tatars in the history of the people - the ancestors of not only those who until now “have kept this proud name - Tatars” (LN Gumilyov), but also many, many representatives of modern Turkic peoples and a significant part modern Russian people.
    The Romanov ideologists hid a significant part of the history of the Fatherland in order to “divide and rule” over the descendants of the glorious Horde people - both Russians and Tatars and other compatriots.
    And the name "Mongols" is the same collective name as "Soviet people" or "Russians".
    "Mongols" is a name in the Middle Ages, and even after some time it was just a political name, the name of the subjects of the state "Mongol Ulus".
    This name has come down to us through the records of multilingual translators-scribes. This name comes from the Old Tatar "Maengel Olys" (approximately pronounced like this). Means "Eternal Power", "Country". "Lot"
    So there were not only Mongols-Tatars, but also Mongols-Russians, Mongol-Hungarians, Mongol-Chinese, and even Mongol-British, etc.
    Perhaps, there were among those Mongols the ancestors of those who, as a result of the selfless labor of the Chinese and Romanov ideologists, are now called "Mongols" - the ancestors of the present Khalkha and their other relatives. But they served in the troops of the Horde as ordinary soldiers and junior and middle command personnel.
    All this is reasonably and reasonably stated in the books of the independent historian-Gumilyovite G.R. Enikeeva: https://daud45.livejournal.com/2804.html
    And here https://pravda-dar.livejournal.com/1326.html
    about how some high-ranking official historians try to repeat after the independent historian G.R. Enikeev, but at the same time they reached plagiarism - "borrowing" the results of his work and keeping silent about their author - that means he wrote well!
    G.R. Yenikeev at scientific and practical conferences, chapters from his books, reviews of them can be read on the website "Tatars of Eurasia (true history)": https://tartareurasia.ucoz.com/publ/
  32. 0
    1 November 2021 14: 24
    Why do nomads need an empire?
    Yes, there is no need. No nomads have ever conquered anyone. These are all myths. They simply have no motivation, no need. A nomadic way of life implies forced asceticism. And whatever the nomad wants, he can exchange with the settled people for cattle.
    Always more technologically advanced peoples (sedentary, since crafts and technologies require a sedentary lifestyle) subjugated the less developed peoples and tribes. There are no exceptions.
    A nomadic lifestyle a priori implies a low degree of socialization and communication.
    And for successful hostilities, the opposite is necessary.
    Bows, horses ... compound bows were known long before the Mongols. Race characteristics of Mongolian horses are quite ordinary. And in unpretentiousness, they lose to the Yakut horses. Strange, the Yakuts have not conquered anyone.
    So the ancestors of today's Mongols had no chance of creating the greatest empire.
    It is also striking that the peoples, allegedly conquered and almost destroyed by the Mongols, after several centuries will again have a fairly solid statehood (like, for example, the Chzhurzheni-Manchus) and rather contemptuously treat the descendants of the former "conquerors of the half-world."

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