The date for laying the lead frigate of the project 22350M in the ocean zone has been announced

The construction of frigates for the ocean zone of Project 22350M will begin no earlier than 2023, the lead ship will be laid down at the Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg.

According to TASS, referring to the words of a source from the Russian defense industry, the decision to build a series of frigates of project 22350M has been made, the laying of the lead ship is tentatively planned for 2023. It will depend on the timing of the commissioning of the new boathouse, the construction of which continues at Severnaya Verf.

The information is unofficial, the company itself does not comment on it in any way.

The start of construction of a new boathouse with a height of 75 meters at the Severnaya Verf shipyard was announced at the end of November 2017. After putting it into operation, the shipyard will be able to build ships of the first and second rank for the Russian Navy. The erected boathouse is designed for two construction sites, in which it will be possible to build ships of the "Leader" destroyer type, icebreakers, and any large-tonnage civil vessels.

Initially, they wanted to limit the series of frigates of Project 22350 to four ships, but later it was decided to extend this series with the possibility of building ships of the modernized version of Project 22350M, according to which it is planned to be included in the fleet at least 12 frigates capable of carrying 48 missiles.

According to reports, Project 22350M envisages the construction of a ship with a displacement of 7 tons, with up to 48 Caliber, Onyx or Zircon cruise missiles on board. The frigates will also be equipped with the Polyment-Redut anti-aircraft missile system with ammunition load of up to 100 missiles, anti-submarine and torpedo weapons. The frigates should receive a single universal automated fire control system for all types of shipborne weapons.

Comments

[tralflot1832]

So already 6 buildings have been laid and they are in various stages of construction.

[carstorm 11]

At 48?) Build at 24 or less. This is already in my opinion a new modification. Improved.

[Alex777]

There is no exact information on the 22350M project.
There is only a photo of an incomprehensible layout.
But the characteristics are still inspiring.
Good news, but we need a lot of such ships.
Not 12, minimum 20.

[Machito]

Quote: Alex777

There is no exact information on the 22350M project.
There is only a photo of an incomprehensible layout.
But the characteristics are still inspiring.
Good news, but we need a lot of such ships.
Not 12, minimum 20.

For the frigate of project 22350M
We need such ships at sea,
So that we can argue with any wave .... (C)

[Alex777]

Quote: Bearded

For the frigate of project 22350M
We need such ships at sea,
So that we can argue with any wave .... (C)

Definitely!

[Romario_Argo]

but there are a lot of such ships.
Not 12, minimum 20

agree
if we revive the operational squadrons of the times of the USSR
5th Mediterranean, 8th Indian, 17th Vietnam, 7th Atlantic,
10th Pacific
it turns out 20 i.e. at least 4 destroyers per 5 squadrons

[lucul]

But the characteristics are still inspiring.
Good news, but we need a lot of such ships.
Not 12, minimum 20.

Yeah, only the engine for it is only in digital form yet, respectively, and there are no gearboxes for it.
They hope that while the ship is being built (2027-2030), the engine and gearbox will finally be made by this time.

[Alex777]

All the difficulties, of course, are known.
Otherwise, I would not have limited myself to 20.

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

Otherwise, I would not have limited myself to 20.

I heard about plans to build 20-24 of these 22350M, and they are going to build at several shipyards at once - Yantar and Severnaya Verf among them.
And since everything has improved with turbines now, the whole question is in the gearboxes for the power plant.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

I heard about plans to build 20 - 24 of these 22350M

I heard it too. Now I expect these plans to come true.

[bayard]

And the plans were again postponed for another year.
Why does this happen?
Because "Zvezda-reducer" instead of immediately taking up the gearbox for 22350M after mastering the gearbox for 22350M, it was engaged in ... sheer nonsense - a power plant for a disabled person from the very idea of ​​20386. Now the Ministry of Defense and the Main Command of the Navy have disowned this project, which cannot but rejoice ... But TIME, forces and resources were spent on the initially flawed power plant for the initially flawed ship.
For this - once again wasted time, it was quite possible to prepare a reducer for the 22350M for the series, which is certainly necessary and important for the Navy and the state as a whole.
And the construction of a new boathouse in St. Petersburg was not a condition and marker for the launch of the 22350M series. Ships of such VI are capable of building many existing shipyards of the Russian Federation - from Yantar in Kaliningrad, Severnaya Verf, Zaliv and Amur Shipyard. shipyards.
And new slipways were built for ships of larger dimension and VI than 22350M.
In them, over time, it would be possible to lay cruisers / destroyers in the dimensions of the Chinese 055 with a power plant on 4 M90FR / FRU, with an air defense system - a blasted S-400 + radar from the S-500 (it has now gone to all S-400 divisions), UKSK for 80 KR, hangar for 2 - 3 helicopters.
What caused the existing ugliness?
A mess at the USC.
And the fact that such complex and specific processes are led by NON-PROFESSIONALS - "effective" lawyers, economists, journalists and even ... producers.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

Now the Ministry of Defense and the Main Command of the Navy have disowned this project, which cannot but rejoice ...

When did it happen?
As for your sadness about the leadership, I can tell you one thing:
I have a number of examples when something was done with meaning, but this meaning was hidden for the time being from the attention of "partners" and the public.
I will not voice these examples.
Let them sleep well.

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

Let them sleep peacefully

They now have other concerns - China's fast-growing fleet and China's ambitions.
But the "cunning plan" does not in any way interfere with the activities and "successes" of the USC. With the adoption of absolutely useless and directly harmful ships - 22160, not only are they completing the series, they (USC) categorically insist on the continuation of this series for ... all fleets of the Russian Federation ... And this is direct sabotage ... Even after the official and public refusal (!) of the Ministry of Defense and FMF from adopting pr. 20386, USC continues to regularly promote this squalor in the press and literally REQUIRES an order for this series ... And this is direct sabotage.
I'm not even talking about the extremely unsatisfactory situation with ship engines in general ... in the failure of plans to provide them with the ships of the Navy under construction. This, too, is a direct consequence of the USC sabotage.
But there are NO conclusions!
And this is the worst part.
And so in everything, not only in shipbuilding.
The situation with AWACS and Fleet aircraft does not stand up to criticism at all ... In this issue, GENERAL, everything is about ... love.
But China is quite successful in such "cunning plans".

[Alex777]

With the adoption of absolutely useless and downright harmful ships - 22160

For 22160 I will not say anything.

Quote: bayard

Even after the official and public refusal (!) Of the Ministry of Defense and the FMF from adopting pr. 20386

I repeat the question: when was it?

[bayard]

About a month or a month and a half ago, Evmenov said that 20386 would not be adopted for service, that it would not go into production, and if it did find life, then ONLY as an experimental ship / vessel. But the time and effort for his awkward power plant was ditched immeasurably. They would already have a power plant for 22350M and could boldly lay them at the end of this / early next year.
This is the price of a mistake.
And she's HUGE.
I have always opposed just such mistakes, when all plans to re-equip the Navy and the Armed Forces as a whole collapse.
And I am categorically in favor of org-conclusions on the "mistakes" made, because except for malicious intent, I cannot classify this.

[Castro Ruiz]

It was a mistake worse than a crime.

[bayard]

Exactly so, and it was obvious to all unbiased people.
I hope that this is the end of this saga and both the USC and the UEC will take up their direct responsibilities - to fulfill the state defense order.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

Exactly so, and it was obvious to all unbiased people.

I am not biased from the word in any way and I believe that the project 20386 in the version "Mercury" (with 2 UKSK) has a future.

[bayard]

The main command of the Navy disagrees with you - it will be an experimental ship and will not enter service.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

About a month or a month and a half ago, Evmenov said that 20386 would not be adopted for service, that it would not go into production, and if it did find life, then ONLY as an experimental ship / vessel.

There was no such thing. Evmenov did not say this.
Klimov happily mirrored Rakhmanov's statement that perhaps it will be so. I picked up the minuses on the fact that I drew the attention of the public, that no one reprinted this news.
So let's assume that nothing has been decided yet.

[bayard]

It was the leadership of the USC that continued (and possibly continues) to lobby fiercely for this project. Continuing to produce custom articles about "innovative" and "breakthrough". There are no two UKSKs on the misunderstanding under construction, there are only launchers for the "Redut", and anti-ship missiles - exclusively for the Kh-35.
They lied to the president about two UKSK, and on cameras, and they were caught hot.
I hope that this project will not go further than the experimental vessel. Perhaps there will be some benefit from the experience of working on a semi-electric power plant ... but only for the sake of experience - I do not see any prospects even in this direction.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

It was the leadership of the USC that continued (and possibly continues) to lobby fiercely for this project. Continuing to produce custom articles about "innovative" and "breakthrough". There are no two UKSKs on the misunderstanding under construction, there are only launchers for the "Redut", and anti-ship missiles - exclusively for the Kh-35.
They lied to the president about two UKSK, and on cameras, and they were caught hot.

I respect your messages and in most cases our opinion coincides. 20386 is a sad exception.
You apparently have not fully understood the issue.
I myself watched the commander demonstrate the model of Mercury to the President.
First, Mercury is very different from Daring,
Secondly, there are 2 UKSK and 2 PU Redoubts on Mercury,
Thirdly, the superstructure on Mercury has been shortened at the expense of space for the X-35.
Here is a photo to support the above:

And here is a photo of Daring:

The difference is obvious and no one deceived the President, and the re-mortgage made a lot of sense.

[bayard]

Even so, the ship (as a combat unit, not a technology demonstrator) is rather ridiculous and unnecessarily expensive. Its size does not allow for a sufficiently powerful subkeletal GAS, which is important for DM and OZ. The air defense missile system is small, there are no anti-aircraft guns, the helicopter is lifted by a lift, which is unnecessary complexity for a small ship and the risks of delaying or disrupting the timely rise of the helicopter into the air ... more than that ...
Therefore, I do not see any benefit from the use of weapons of this particular type of ships, in principle, and specifically such a ship in particular. The development of an experimental power plant may be useful and even promising, but rather for the submarine fleet.
And about the president’s deception ... I also watched this footage more than once - there was a deception in the number of launchers for "Caliber", when the launchers for "Reduta" were issued as such, and their number was later announced by journalists as much as 32 PC.

I pointed out the harm from this project - instead of making a power plant (reducer) for project 22350M, "Zvezda-Reductor" pored over a reducer that had no analogues for "Mercury". As a result, at least two years have been lost and instead of laying this year, the same for 22350M will happen no earlier than 2023.
And this is harm.
Because 22350M is needed in a large series in DM and OZ, and "Mercury" - as an experimental ship / vessel for developing technologies and no more.
But this is already a thing of the past, now the main thing is not to disrupt the deadlines for 2023.

[Alex777]

Its size does not allow it to have a powerful enough subkeletal GUS.

A very controversial statement. 20380 and 20385 have a smaller displacement. Albatrosses are the same.

The air defense missile launcher is small, there are no anti-aircraft guns

64 SAMs of self-defense is the limit for 2 times more than 1155, and it is quite enough for a corvette.
There are certainly anti-aircraft guns. How did you overlook this?

the helicopter is lifted with a lift, which is unnecessary complexity for a small ship and the risks of delay or disruption of the timely rise of the helicopter into the air ...

I beg you ... Hear the stories of the 1164 crews as they on hands pushing helicopters out of the hangar.
In Mercury, everything is fine with the lift and the center of gravity of the ship is lower. What is important for an ocean ship.
On the 956, with their high airspace, the helicopters were practically not based.

It is much weaker in all respects compared to the frigate 22350, and it is as if it was announced to him that it was not more than that ...

It is smaller, cheaper, and more economical than the 22350, but so far it is inferior to only 2 Redoubt launchers. Avionics are not ready to compare - there is no information.
If the project is successful, the perspective is clear: corvettes 20386, frigates - 22350M. Quite a logical pair.

[bayard]

Corvettes have nothing to do in DM and OZ. Except for inter-fleet crossings. Their environment is the near zone, anti-submarine defense, patrol and convoy service at BMZ.
This requires ships of smaller VI. much cheaper and more widespread, sharpened mainly for PLO.
There simply must be a lot of them - for the organization of combat duty in BMZ and round-up on enemy submarines. As a rule, such raids / hunts are carried out simultaneously by four ships of the same type, which means that in each naval base there should be from 8 to 12 such ships ... With a project of 20380/85, and even more so 20386, we will never reach such a number.
We need a VI ship of the order of 1500 tons with a power plant from pr. 20380 (it just exists and will allow the ship of such VI to be told a speed of up to 30 knots), with a UKSK for PLUR "Answer", "Packet-NK", a good BUGAS and the maximum possible sodden, and moderate air defense - "Pantsir-M" will be quite sufficient. The cost of such a ship will be about 12-13 billion rubles. , it will be possible to build them at any shipyard and in large quantities. "Pella", "Zelenodolsk" will fully cope with this task and will unload "Yantar" and the Amur Shipyard for more serious ships.
Thus, the problem of PLO in BMZ can be solved rather quickly and for reasonable money.
And ... "ocean zone corvette" ... it's generally an oxymoron.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

This requires ships of smaller VI. much cheaper and more widespread, sharpened mainly for PLO.

Its size does not allow it to have a powerful enough subkeletal GUS.

I'm afraid you have a contradictory and somewhat outdated point of view.
Those same nuclear submarines Burke cannot detect, but you are talking about cheap PLO ships.
All worked to reduce the noise level of submarines and achieved noticeable success.
The global trend is the growth of VI and the quality of avionics.

[bayard]

The United States successfully detects any submarine using low-frequency illumination, which would not hurt us to do. And "cheapness" is achieved by abandoning expensive air defense, which costs from a third to 40% of the cost of the entire ship.

Quote: Alex777

Its size does not allow it to have a powerful enough subkeletal GUS.

This is by definition - there is a small ship - a small ship, in its search it relies mainly on a towed GAS (BUGAS), which will not be interfered with by the ship's own noises.
A helicopter hangar for such a BMZ ship is also not needed, it is enough for it to have a platform for it and the possibility of refueling. When the shore is near it is enough.

Quote: Alex777

The global trend is the growth of VI and the quality of avionics.

Not for BMZ ships.
As a rule, four such ships go out on the hunt. This means that there should be from 8 to 12 such corvettes in the database.
How many naval bases do we have that require high-quality ASW and ensure the safe withdrawal of ships from the base?
That is why proposals are already being prepared for corvettes based on the Karakurt corps.
And the race for "the growth of VI and the quality of avionics" led to the fact that our 20380/85 cost came very close to frigates, up to 40% of the cost of which is radar and air defense systems.
And they will never (!) Be in sufficient quantity for services.
But they could lead a group of lighter PLO corvettes based on the "Karakurt" and this could become quite a good synergy.

[maratkoRuEkb]

Please link to such a statement in the studio, I was looking for it and did not find it, so it seems to me there was no such thing.
"About a month or a month and a half ago, Evmenov said that 20386 would not be adopted for service, it would not go into production, and if it does find life, it will ONLY be an experimental ship / vessel."

[Alex777]

Yes, there were no such statements by Evmenov. This Rakhmanov blurted out and fell silent.

[maratkoRuEkb]

thanks for clarifying the point)

[bayard]

Quote: lucul

Uh-huh, only the engine for it is only in digital form

Engines for him M-70FRU and M-90FR - they are, mastered and produced (including for other projects), but the gearbox is more likely the main reason.
Apparently this is connected with the transfer of the bookmark from 2022 to 2023.

[lucul]

Engines for him M-70FRU and M-90FR - they are, mastered and produced (including for other projects), but the gearbox is more likely the main reason.

No, it was infa that they developed (computer simulation) a digital version of a new marine engine for ships with a displacement of up to 10 tons. So it will have to be put on 000M.

[bayard]

The digital model of the main power plant assembly is a combination of the M-70FRU sustainer turbine (power 14 l / s), the M-000FR afterburner (power of 90 l / s) and the travel gearbox. So, the only new thing in this assembly is the gearbox with the addition of torque from both turbines in the maximum power mode for full stroke.
And the turbines already exist and are being mass-produced.

[Elturisto]

Yeah, serially, on paper, tie it up ...

[Barberry25]

so the basis of the fleet is 22350U, and 22350M is the base model for the series in the 30s

[bayard]

What is the basis? The series is spelled out for them in 10 - 12 pieces.
And 22350M will be laid when the gearbox is ready.

[Barberry25]

"a series is prescribed" is a lot of things that the MO prescribes, here we are talking about the fact that before you build, you need to prepare and check .. So, provided that the promised performance characteristics, namely 32 anti-ship missiles, are fulfilled, we will really need the ears, especially since for a number of directions, they are optimal .. It's time for the naval ones to tie up in the wunderwales to play with .. land-based at one time played enough that in fact failed the supply of modern technology, which led to the fact that the army was missing about 500 bmp-3m and instead of 1 btr-500A could have 82 BTR-1s, which are significantly superior in performance characteristics ..

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

So, provided that the promised performance characteristics are fulfilled, namely 32 anti-ship missiles, we will really need Ears, especially since they are optimal for a number of directions.

The fact of the matter is that they are not optimal.
Unfortunately .
What are the tasks facing the ships DM and OZ?
First of all, this is the detection and tracking of the enemy's AUG and KUG, as well as the designation of a threat to the enemy's territory from neutral waters. This is in peacetime.
And only then did the notorious "flag demonstration".
Are these ships capable of ACCEPTING the enemy's AUG and KUG?
NOT !
In terms of running / speed parameters, they are NOT ABLE.
The enemy will easily break away from them both on the economic move and at the maximum.
Easy .
So what are the real functions of such ships?
Demonstration of the flag and, if necessary, escort service.
I suspect that most of the time they will generally serve in BMZ, leading corvettes while providing anti-aircraft weapons and serving in the so-called. "bastions".
Nowhere else.
They can even create / designate a threat to the enemy's territory very conditionally - because of the limited BC and the actual number of ships themselves.
It turned out to be a rather niche ship.
But the technology worked on it.

Quote: Barberry25

It's time for the naval to play with the wunderwafi ..

The 22350M is not a wunderwaffle at all, but a ship of the ocean zone, devoid of the shortcomings of 22350 and is more expensive than the latter by only 100 million dollars.
Why is it so with its VI of 7000 - 8000 tons?
Very simply, most of the cost of a ship is made up of its weapons systems, primarily SAM, RLK, BIUS, etc. So, in the 22350M, all these systems remain the same - identical with their predecessor. The air defense missile launcher, the KR in the UKSK has simply been increased, and two helicopters instead of one. And the ship's hull itself is only 15% of the total cost.
But the running characteristics promise to be very good.
For economic propulsion, instead of diesel engines with a capacity of 2 x 5 l / s, there will be two M200FRU gas turbines of 70 l / s each .. And at maximum speed, instead of a pair of M14FR afterburner turbines, they will work in pairs and cruise ones, giving out afterburner power of 000 l / s instead of 90 l / s, and the speed is about 83 knots instead of 000.
With such driving characteristics, the 22350M will be able to confidently accompany the AUG and KUG of any enemy, carrying out "weapon tracking".
And there should not be any special difficulties with their construction, because everything has already been worked out on the previous project. All you need is a new gearbox for the power plant.

Quote: Barberry25

could have 1 BTR-500s, which are significantly superior in performance characteristics ..

Come on this nonsense - Medvedev (during his presidency) ordered a whole line of "new generation armored vehicles"?
I ordered it.
So you will get "Boomerang" with "Kurganets" ... and "Armata" to boot.
All the golden time and money are spent on these projects ... SO NECESSARY.
And the frigates with corvettes turned out to be exactly LIKE ... "high-speed", because this is also NECESSARY.
And the disabled Roskosmos - "Science", into space EXACTLY SO it was NECESSARY to launch - in order to whirl in a joyful dance with the ISS.
This is the tricky plan of Big Politics.

[Barberry25]

one important point .. 22350M is NOT yet, there are only wishlist and dreamers .. and proposals to start building it serially to the detriment of the current series ... I have already given examples of such wishlist ...

[bayard]

Series 22350 will be continued until approximately 12 units (8 units have been built and laid down so far). If the power plant for the 22350M is ready, it is only necessary to build them - this is the same 22350, but the largest, faster and with a much larger ammunition load, autonomy and seaworthiness.
All systems of weapons, combat control, communications, electronic warfare and general shipborne systems will remain unchanged, since they have already been well mastered by the industry.
But the fact that the power plant for 22350 is not ready to this day is the result of direct sabotage from the USC. And examples of such sabotage both in the USC and in other industries are a dime a dozen.
And there is practically no counteraction to such "cunning plans" for total sabotage of the real combat readiness of the Armed Forces and the country as a whole.

As soon as there is a power plant for 22350M, the need for 22350 will disappear.
And if they still need frigates, then it is better for them to replace the power plant with something more appropriate for the DM and OZ warship ... Instead of weak diesel engines of 5200 l / s, you can use the M75FRU sustainer turbines - 7500 l / s each. And if their torque can be added to the gearbox with the afterburner M90FR, then there will be no price for such a frigate.

[Barberry25]

a couple of points: 1) that 22350M is an overweight 22350 is just an opinion .. until the project is presented, a lot can change, 2) the timing, at the moment, the shipyards with grief in half promise to come out by the 25-27th year at the rate of 2 frigates in year .. and then what? stop the series ... oh yes ... we will build 2 extra ships and run into a gamble with SuperGorshkov? plans and there is no guarantee at all that the new frigates will not become another long-term construction because of "oh, again problems with the power plant and gearboxes." calculations, but not fact ... And what is the bottom line? By the year 8, the fleet will receive as many as 10 frigates .. or talk about "we will order 28 more frigates" .. this is just talk .. well, even if we assume that the fleet will still receive 10nd year already 2 frigates .. then what? A break of 32-12 years while the shipyards give birth to a series of SuperGorshkovy? So by this time we will have to start up half of the fleet for scrap and switch completely to corvettes, calling them frigates ... I repeat: the problem is not in SuperGorshkov, but in the wrong fleet policy - until the ship is checked, there is no exact information that the shipyards are READY for it massively build carry conversations that "we need just new superpuperGorshkov, and the old version is no longer going to build, we can’t." .we have jumps "we want a new series" .. as a result, instead of massive projects that will allow us to create not only qualitative, but also quantitative superiority, we get another crap with jumps on the old rake .. Do you want new Superpots? please build a slipway for them for 5-7 ships and build, but don't touch 2U, but on the contrary, think about how to optimize their production.

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

1) that 22350M is a fat 22350 is just an opinion .. until the project is presented, a lot can change

The name of the project itself speaks about the fact that 22350M is exactly the grown size of 22350! Otherwise, they would have come up with a different code for the series. They started talking about the need for a modernized version of "Gorshkov" as soon as it appeared and it was possible to assess its capabilities. Therefore, the 22350M will be the same "Gorshkov", but longer, slightly wider, with a new, more advanced power plant, better running characteristics, more seaworthy and autonomous - exactly what the DM and OZ ship needs. All basic armament and equipment will remain the same, only ammunition missiles and missiles will grow, a second helicopter will appear, and it is possible that the Pantsir-M will appear instead of purely artillery assault rifles. I would also not be surprised at the appearance on its board of inclined missile launchers for the Kh-35 anti-ship missiles (they take up little space, but they are quite useful), because on the modernized 1155, in addition to the UKSK, they are installed not even in 2 x 4 launchers, but in 4 x 4 launchers, starting with the second upgraded BOD.

Quote: Barberry25

terms, at the moment, the shipyards with grief in half promise to come out by the 25th-27th year at the rate of 2 frigates a year .. and then what?

It all depends on the rhythm of the delivery of the power plant, and they have already gone. Now all the slipways are occupied by the ships under construction, and therefore the laying of the 9th and 10th ships of the series, which have been ordered for a year already, but have not been laid yet. "Golovko" is now undergoing trials, the power plant has been delivered to "Isakov" and is now being installed; descent by the end of this year and delivery by the end of the future is possible (this is what USC and the management of Severnaya Verf promise). Four more hulls in varying degrees of readiness are on the stocks and are also waiting for the power plant (they promise to start with 2 sets per year). In total, two more frigates are expected to be ordered, i.e. bookmark 4 more. Total 12 pcs. If by this time the first two 22350Ms in the new boathouse have already been laid, then by the time the slipways at Severnaya Verf begin to be emptied, it will be possible to think about laying the MODERNIZED version of this project there. Difficulties in mastering this project are not expected, since in aggregate, the coefficient of novelty will be small, and all weapons systems are serial and mastered by the industry. And the pace of their construction will be (in the series) 4 - 5 years at the first stage, and up to 3,5 - 4 years at the second. Let me remind you that the serial frigates 11356 on the Yantar for the Black Sea Fleet were built for no more than 3,5 years each.
All delays in the construction of lead ships were due to the unavailability of weapons systems (now ready) and the disruption of the power plant supply (now the issues on PO55 have been resolved, and the power plant for the 22350M will also be resolved - it is not at all technically more complicated, and the turbines are already being mass-produced.

Quote: Barberry25

By the way, the promised speed characteristics about "the full and economic progress will not be inferior to the Americans" is also from the calculations section, but not the fact.

This is based on the power of the turbines, VI and the lines of the ship. Even if Burke starts to break away at the economic speed (20 knots), then the 22350 will be able to switch to the M90FR turbines and easily catch up with it, without padding with the M70FRU. With a smaller VI than that of Burke and more powerful turbines (27 l / s versus 500 l / s), the 25M will be able to catch up with the Burke. And with the simultaneous operation of all 000 turbines - accompany at full speed.
In addition, the plans of the Ministry of Defense and the Navy are to build 22350M at several shipyards at the same time. That is, two new slipways will be involved, all the slipways of Severnaya Verf and Yantar - at least. Over time, it is possible to connect to the Zaliv program and the Amur Shipyard (after the order for corvettes is fulfilled).
As soon as the power plant for the 22350M is ready (by 2023), the laying of these particular ships will begin. Prior to that, all 22350.1 (U) planned for construction will have already been laid down and are being completed. The connection of other shipyards to the program will proceed gradually, as the industry (Zvezda-Reductor) is ready to provide them with power plants rhythmically and in the required volumes. There is enough capacity for this (newly deployed).
So don't worry, all 22350.1s will be built and operational. But if in the future it is necessary to increase their number, they will be resumed already with the updated GEM - more perfect and meeting the tasks facing the ship.

[Barberry25]

here you are so tricky ... in just 4 years you are ready to build a frigate of 8 tons, but why? but because the same number of frigates were built with sooooo simplified armament and a displacement TWO TIMES LESS ... in general, in fact, all words are just Wishlist not related to reality from the word in general ... but the reality is that at the moment the shipyards, in principle, do not meet the deadlines for the word in general ... and thinking about "000 tons in 8 years" is only possible in fantasies ... and yes, practice shows that our naval commanders will screw up again and then begin to bleat in attempts to cover the fifth point ... because they have no faith

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

you are so cunning.

Even by age, I am not "you" at all, but quite a "you". This is the first thing.
Secondly, I argue that at the first stage (the first pre-series) such a ship can be built in 5 years, and already the 3rd - 4th even in 4 years. This is with the rhythmic work of all contractors and suppliers, as well as with a competent organization of the technical process.

Quote: Barberry25

. and the reality is that at the moment the shipyards, in principle, do not fit into the deadlines from the word at all.

Shipyards do not fit because there is no power plant for ships. That's all. The hulls are still formed, most of the weapons and equipment are mounted, but ... they are just waiting.
Do you understand THAT?
If you DO NOT understand, I cannot help you.

Quote: Barberry25

thinking about "8 tons in 000 years" can only be imagined.

This figure was announced for an already serial ship, about the fourth - fifth in the series, provided that there will be no delays in the supply of the power plant and other key elements.

Quote: Barberry25

.and yes, practice shows that our naval commanders will screw up again and then begin to bleat in attempts to cover the fifth point.

So far, neither the commanders of the fleets, nor even the High Command, have power over the state defense order - it is pushed and lobbied by manufacturers and developers. And they usually lobby for vicious and flawed projects that are simply profitable for them to build (22160 and 20386 are examples of this).
The fact that even today the industry is capable of building quickly even the lead ship of the series, and even the very development of this project to be carried out in a much shorter time than in the days of the USSR (!!!), can be an example of the development and construction of the lead "Karakurt". "Pella" was at its best - it designed and built a ship in a time unprecedented even for the USSR. And the delays in the construction of the series are again entirely on the conscience of the engine builders - a bunch of buildings are waiting for the power plant.
This is the "propulsion curse" of the modern Russian Federation, which must be combated by optimizing the choice of the type of power plant for under construction and future ships.
We have serious problems with marine diesel engines, but considerable progress with gas turbines. It is on them that you need to rely and finally pay due attention to the development and production of gearboxes. Now there is a trial over the "Zvezda-Reduktor", which thwarted the state defense order, which will most likely end with the nationalization of this enterprise. Given the limited possibilities at the moment, it is necessary to order exactly those types of power plants that are most needed by the Navy right now. If this is done, things will go back to the pace generally accepted in the world's shipbuilding. And I brought the example from 11356 just for this - all the weapons systems were serial and worked out by the industry, similar ships were built in a large series for India, the power plant was supplied by Zorya-Mashproekt ... And as a result, the pace of construction was 3,5 years.
What do we have at the moment for 22350 \ 22350M?
All the ship's systems have been worked out by industry, all weapons systems have been completed and are serial, and even the power plant (PO55) has been mastered by the industry and about three complete ship sets have been produced ... a contract has been signed for the supply of at least 10 sets of similar power plants (including power plant for 22350M).
So what is the problem and hysteria about 8-10 years of construction of serial ships?
I am sure that even those 22350.1 that were laid in recent years (Amelko, Chichagov, Yumashev and Spiridonov) will be built in 5 - 5,5 years. There is simply no reason for the long delays.

And for your information - ships are built not by the Fleet (admirals), but by industry (USC), and if you don’t trust anyone, then it is them.
And the Navy and admirals in particular, just need ships that correspond to the tasks that will be assigned to them.
And yet - do not forget about the launched program of modernization of the entire BOD 1155 fleet to the level of a "frigate". They will also contribute to the defense capability and defuse the situation with the shortage of DM and OZ ships.

[Barberry25]

yeah .. "if no one messes up, then maybe on the 5th ship they will learn" .. this is from the section "if grandmother had male genitals, she would be a grandfather" .. and the fact is that just a breakdown is on a break, and attempts "this is all the shipyards, and the poor admirals are not to blame" are already left for home tea parties .. all adults understand perfectly well .. Attempts to shove "but look, there is Karakurt!" .. they really forget that there is 800 tons, it is assembled as a lego on the basis of a previously developed project, and yes ... now it is already being built for 4-4,5 years ... you can nod as much as you like "but there are no engines", but for SuperGorshkov there are NO them either .. About "Poor admirals" do not raise the topic, they were the ones who regularly refused various projects, which ultimately resulted in a wild shortage of ships .. All because the naval first abandoned the Hawk, then the Cheetah, then the Petrel ... About the "modernization of the BOD ".. better not to remember is that a dead poultice ... 1 ship every 4-6 years with reduced characteristics .. This should be proud whether? Once again, I repeat, the improved Gorshkov is a ship that we CAN mass-produce, and SuperGorshkov is, in theory, maybe if the Moon is in the constellation of Cancer, then we can release it ...

[bayard]

Stop flooding and writing nonsense.

Quote: Barberry25

"if no one messes up, then maybe on the 5th ship they will learn

Already, the ships under construction will have a construction cycle of about 5 years. With the continuation of the series, debugging the technical process and production cooperation, the period may well be reduced to 4 years.

Quote: Barberry25

Karakurt 800 tons, it is assembled like a lego on the basis

This is not true .

Quote: Barberry25

. Now it is already being built for 4-4,5 years.

Now they have been building it for about 1,5 years and put in a sludge without an engine.
And "Zvezda-Reduktor" is now undergoing a nationalization procedure. The corresponding law has been adopted especially for this.

Quote: Barberry25

.About the "poor admirals" do not raise the topic, they were the ones who regularly refused various projects

But who asks them then?
Now all fleets (except for the Northern Fleet) are subordinate to the districts - the infantry is now in charge there.
Armored.

Quote: Barberry25

All because the naval first abandoned the Hawk, then the Cheetah, then the Petrel.

The first two were hopelessly outdated and had specific GEM.
And Petrevestnikov was accepted.
Forgot ?
Ordered 6 pcs. , managed to get 3 pcs. for the Black Sea Fleet.
The ships of very dubious value for the modern fleet, maybe in the future they will undergo modernization and put themselves in order ...

Quote: Barberry25

.About the "modernization of the BOD" .. it is better not to remember that a dead poultice ... 1 ship every 4-6 years with reduced characteristics ..

and where is this from?
"Shaposhnikov" was the leader in this modernization, and despite this, the Primorsky ship repairers met in 3,5 years.
And what are the stripped-down specs?
"Shaposhnikov was added the shock capabilities of 16 CD in the UKSK + 8 anti-ship missiles in inclined launchers.
All the next ones will receive 32 missile launchers each in UKSK, 16 anti-ship missiles X-35 in 4 inclined launchers, "Packet-NK" and "Shtil" air defense missile systems. AND WHAT in this version they cut?
Or is it "slaughtered"?
In all systems of strike and submarine weapons, it greatly surpasses 22350.1 (U), has two helicopters, a very powerful SAC, and only in air defense is slightly inferior to the Gorshkov.
but no one has yet called "Calm" a bad air defense system.
Taking into account that after the modernization, the ships will have to serve for another 15 years, they don't need more.

Quote: Barberry25

I repeat once again - the improved Gorshkov is a ship that we CAN mass-produce,

If you CAN, then what to do with you - release it.
And plans for the construction of 22350M have already been adopted and not even yesterday.

Quote: Barberry25

if the moon is in the constellation Cancer

You are also an astronomer ...
Build.

[Barberry25]

and another moment .. you stress that "everything has been checked and tested" .. so let me remind you that everything was tested, for example, on the first corvettes 20380, which did not prevent you from starting to make changes to the finished project, which led to a delay and disruption of production .. So by the 23rd year, the admirals will again find a new wunderwaffe, which will need to be urgently implemented in Gorshkov, which will lead to the old chain ... So they will build according to the classics for 12-15 years, with bleating and a promise to hand over a super ship that has no analogues. .. I'll write again ... Until our "brilliant admirals and shipyards" finish the project, until they hand it over, until they show the OPPORTUNITY to build a FAST attempt "and let's roll all the series and rivet Superpots" will lead to the fact that we will again get a hole in 5-7 years, when the fleet WILL NOT receive new ships ... There have already been examples ... and the Cheetahs and Hawks and Petrels are a very good indicator that the naval ones have no idea what they need and in the eternal pursuit of a stork in the sky they forget about the titmouse in their hands and getwoodpecker right in the same place ..

[bayard]

Quote: Barberry25

and another moment ... you are pushing

I repeat the remark - you and I did not drink at brotherhood.

Quote: Barberry25

Let me remind you that everything was tested, for example, on the first corvettes 20380, which did not stop me from starting to make changes to the finished project, which led to a delay and disruption of production.

Not EVERYTHING was tested and tested on 20380.
And the main unresolved problem was (almost to this day) - the air defense of this ship. Namely - his radar. They experimented a lot with it, tried to put a blasted radar from the "Pantsir-S" "mm" range ... it did not work (and did not work) to resolve the issue of radio command guidance of the SAM with AGS to the capture point. Having suffered too much with this topic, they ordered the company that previously produced "refrigerators" of the new generation RLK "Zaslon" - which also did not fire, but turned out to be prohibitively expensive. As a result, the laying of new corvettes was stopped for a long time, and the already built ones were not fully combat-ready ...
You call IT:

Quote: Barberry25

everything was tested for example on the first corvettes

??
Then you do not know anything about the current situation in the domestic shipbuilding industry.
Now it seems (LIKE!) Decided and the radar displays the missile defense system at the point of intersection and capture.
Let's see how it will be in practice.

Quote: Barberry25

.So they will build according to the classics for 12-15 years,

Don't even hope.
Tit in hand were just RTOs, which until 2014 were not in the state defense order at all - precisely to compensate for the period until the Russian Federation can build large ships for objective reasons. Now this time is over - corvettes 20380 and 20385 are back in order, and by no means small, frigates 22350.1 are being laid down again and there are already 4 of them on the stocks. Until 2023, four more 22350.1 and the first two 22350M will be laid.
problems with marine engines will not last forever, they have already been largely resolved. It is up to the organization of serial production in the required quantities and at the required pace. This is already much easier to implement than to build from scratch a machine-building industry that did not exist before in the Russian Federation.

[Barberry25]

MRK is just a woodpecker, which has already pecked, in fact, Karakurt appeared when it suddenly turned out that we do not have a serial warship with UVP .. Once again, since it is difficult for you to understand I will repeat .. Even now YOU write that "but you must , but they can ".. but there is no guarantee that the Superpots will be able to build quickly .. even YOU admit that" well, on the fifth ship, they should start building it quickly "... ie. instead of other ships, we need to lay down the SuperGorshkovs, cure his childhood illnesses and then maybe he will become serial and "they will do it in 4 years." a curiosity that needs to be experienced? Will there be fun again in the form of "full shipyards" and the absence of ships? So let the northerners have fun on the new eling, but the current tables should be given to the improved Pots, and that's when they hand over the second pair and confirm their readiness "for 4 years to build ", and then raise the issue of transferring part of the shipyards to SuperGots, otherwise we may again find ourselves on the same rake, which has already been filled with cones

[bayard]

22350 and 22350.1 (U) will be built in a series of no more than 10 - 12 units.
All .
Further only 22350M.
Much more.
The term of construction of the head 22350M I will assume within 5 - 5,5 years.
With the reduction of the construction time for serial production to 3,5 - 4 years, somewhere in the middle of the series.
Starting from the 4th - 5th ships, the term will reach level 4 - 4,5 years.

And do not be stubborn - they will not hear you.
And the Navy is dissatisfied with the speed characteristics of the new ships (and 22350, and 20380, and 20385). And this drawback will be eliminated on the ships preparing for laying.

[Barberry25]

I wrote my opinion .. if, according to the classics, there will again be a delay, a breakdown and subsequent sprinkling with ashes, I warned .. Only you again have "evil Putin to blame" .. but you don’t want to learn from mistakes ..

[Barberry25]

Once again, to understand, I am not against Superpots, I am in favor of a gradual approach so that the fleet receives ships in any case, and does not jump in jumps ... that's why I say 12-16-20 Improved Pots, it doesn't matter, they should be released before that moment until the technical readiness to build SuperGots quickly is confirmed in practice, and there we are gradually transferring the rest of the shipyards to the production of these frigates / destroyers.

[bayard]

So no one canceled the new bookmarks of the "Gorshkov" - now two frigates are waiting for the bookmarks, which have already been ordered, but they cannot wait a year for the vacancies on the stocks. Therefore, they will be laid in the future 2022 (this will be the 9th and 10th buildings). This means that the bookmarking of the latter in the series (12 pieces) will be possible not earlier than the end of 2023 or, most likely, 2024.
Taking into account that the building slip period takes about 2 years (or more), the following bookmarks will be possible - the end of 2025 - 2026.
Since the head pair 22350M will be laid in the new boathouse in 2023, by that time 2 - 3 years will have passed, that is, the slipway period for the head 22350M will be over or come to an end. So, it will already be clear whether the industry is coping with deliveries through cooperation and, most importantly, the power plant. And if he copes, then on the vacated places in the new boathouse and on two slipways, freed from buildings 22350.1, it will be possible to lay "Super-Gorshkovy" for quite a serial production.
This is a calculation according to the technical process and it was then - 2025/26. it will become clear whether the industry is ready to run a wide series of such ships in several shipyards.
By that time, Yantar will also untie its orders, at least on the stocks, and will be ready to join the program.
If there is a breakdown again, it will be a direct sabotage of the USC and the UEC, which means the government.
I hope this does not happen.

[Barberry25]

I explain ... at the end of the 20s there will be a situation that: A) the current contracts for frigates / corvettes will be fulfilled and B) in theory, the fleet will receive the lead Superpots for testing, and so, after that, you propose to transfer all shipyards to the construction of Superpots - Yantar, Severyan and the Amurskiy ... The problem is that there is a high probability that the development of production can drag on for a dozen years, which will lead to a gap in the supply of ships to the fleet, and taking into account that by this time, in the most optimistic scenarios, the fleet will receive 15 frigates of all types, 15 corvettes and 30 MRK / patrol, then we will find ourselves in a situation where we will again lack modern ships, because 60 NK will not be able to cover all the needs of a fleet of 150 ships. I propose to postpone this process at least until the delivery of the second pair of Superpots built on the new boathouse. If they show that they really can and can, then please let them bringcommissions from Yantar, then from Amur and launch the production of eMoks on them, but so far this has not happened, build corvettes and frigates of proven series, which will in fact make it possible to insure himself in a situation of failure of the order, i.e. if the Northerners show that they will build SuperGots for 26-7 years, then the construction of U-versions with 8 missiles on the remaining stocks will allow to ensure supplies for the same 32 years to transfer to the fleet at least 8 additional frigates and up to 6 corvettes, which is at least not weak will strengthen the fleet.

[bayard]

The morning of the evening is trickier, first you need to wait for the 22350M bookmarks.
Frigates are always needed less than destroyers / frigate destroyers. Therefore, as soon as the industry is ready for the GEM, they will go into series.
12 "Gorshkovy" + 3 Black Sea men = 15 frigates
Plus 4 - 7 upgraded 1155.
In my opinion, that's enough for the first time.
But normal OZ ships are needed like air.
They should be built.
"Yantar" previously built 1155 pr.
"Amursky -" Sarychey ".
Moreover, the Amurskiy may not need to be connected if it becomes possible to build such ships in Primorye - even in Bolshoy Kamen. The Far East needs its own facilities for the construction of large ships.

[Barberry25]

I wrote everything, I see no reason to add something

[Barberry25]

although no, not all ... the only option in which an accelerated transition to the production of destroyer frigates can be considered is the launch of a new patrolman based on Karakurt-mass up to 1,5 thousand tons, 76 mm cannon, 8 UVP units, 8 units Packet-NK, SAM Resurs with a range of 30 km, 2 30 mm guns and anti-submarine UAV of the VRT type

-300, this ship can be massively built instead of Karakurt, Brawlers and Bykovs at a rate of 3 ships per year in 5 years instead of those removed from the MRK, RK, MPL ..

[bayard]

Finally . I have already written about this many times, incl. the last two days.
To make it even cheaper - instead of the possible "Resource" with expensive missiles with AGSN, the cheaper "Pantsir-M" with much cheaper missiles with a radio command guidance system, no less range and two six-barreled barrels.
According to rumors, a complete set of Pantsir-M costs about 1 billion rubles.
More for the PLO BMZ corvette is not necessary.
And they can be built everywhere - "Pella", Zelenodolsk, in Primorye, without taking up a slipway at a decent shipyard.

[Barberry25]

in general ... turn on Suvorov's mode ...

[MinskFox]

While these 12 are put into operation, something more serious will be needed, if 12 are put in on time and it will be good, the main thing is not to spread out in time.

[Barberry25]

What is it more serious than a destroyer?

[MinskFox]

I'm a supporter of 885M)

[midivan]

Quote: Alex777

but there are a lot of such ships.
Not 12, minimum 20.

Uh, my friend, but the "women" can't keep up with your wishlist ..

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

There is no exact information on the 22350M project.
There is only a photo of an incomprehensible layout.

In principle, the layout is understandable and quite reasonable, only in light of the fact that on sub-series 22350.1 there will be no longer 24, but 32 KR in UKSK (in two rows of two units), then on 22350M it is logical to ask for four UKSK in two rows - that is not 48, but 64 CR. In the light of all the other characteristics - the power of the power plant, the dimensions, the autonomy, two helicopters and an air defense missile launcher, such a solution looks quite logical.
And the time for making changes to the project is quite enough - until 2023.
Why not 2022 in the future?
Most likely due to the unavailability of the power plant (turbopair on the M-70FRU and M-90FR), and the words about "when the boathouse will be completed" - from the evil one. It was supposed to be completed this year and prepared for the laying of ships by the beginning of next year.
And why bind to this particular boathouse? This is not a battleship, is it an atomic leader?
This is a ship in VI and the dimensions of our glorious BOD 1155. And such ships can be built on existing stocks in the Kaliningrad Yantar, Severnaya Verf and other shipyards - even at the Amur Shipyard, where the Sarychs were built before.
The postponement of the bookmark for another year is definitely not happy, just as it is not happy that this year it seems that they are not going to lay the already ordered two more frigates 22350.1.

But I like the model - a harmonious ship, although I would add a couple more quadruple launchers for the X-35 for less priority purposes. So as not to throw expensive anti-ship missiles on every little thing.

[NAVY]

It has long been said that this model has nothing to do with 22350m, the real one is also available, but for showing to a closed circle of people. Otherwise, I agree with you, most likely they are waiting for the readiness of the power plant. 2023 is not bad either, not too long to wait. Let's wish the project good luck.

[Barberry25]

Amber is packed with orders, like Amur residents, they would have to master the delivery of corvettes on time, and no one will destroy the 22350U series for this ship.

[bayard]

Corvettes, this is certainly good, but destroyers are now more important and weighty, and the CVD is capable of building VI ships up to 8000 tons, and 1155 were built there. The Amur plant - yes, it will have enough corvettes for a long time, but if they want to, they will be able to connect something else - if they want, Zaliv will be able to.

Quote: Barberry25

, and under this ship no one will destroy the 22350U series

You mean 22350.1?
And what is bad if instead of this suboptimal in speed (both economic and maximum), full-fledged ocean ships will be built at the same capacities?
22350 was just a warm-up and testing of weapons systems.
And also to identify errors.
Yes, and corvettes 20280 \ 85 are also not optimal - it is more useful for us to build lighter VI corvettes of 1500 tons on the basis of "Karakurt" with advanced anti-submarine capabilities and moderate air defense. "Pella" and Zelenodolsk will cope with such orders, and it is time for "Yantar" to deal with serious orders.

[Barberry25]

The fact that until the fireball is delivered, the performance characteristics will not be confirmed, the fleet needs a serial ship, and it was needed yesterday ... and 22350U at the moment is the best that the fleet can provide, and from the 25th year they are going to supply 2 frigates a year, so that instead of any projectors, it is better to have ships than drawings of ships.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

on 22350M, it is logical to ask for four UKSK in two rows - that is, not 48, but 64 KR

For a frigate, 48 KR is enough.
They still need to be riveted in quantity.
Not only Calibers but also Zircons (you don't need a lot of them).
They cost a lot of money, both KR and UKSK. And they have significant weight.
The increased stock of missiles is also important for the 22350M.

Most likely due to the unavailability of the power plant (turbopair on the M-70FRU and M-90FR), and the words about "when the boathouse will be completed" - from the evil one.

You remember that MO is suing Zvezda-Reducer.
This alone is enough to shift to the right.
The ellings are built correctly. Just believe it.

But I like the model - a harmonious ship., Although I would add a couple more quadruple launchers for the X-35 for it - for less priority purposes.

On the model in front of the hangar, there is a superstructure with a Dagger PU.
Therefore, I called the model incomprehensible.
Instead of that add-on, you can put a lot of useful things.
And 24 launchers Kh-35, which already work well on the ground, too.
But these are all unsubstantiated dreams.

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

For a frigate, 48 KR is enough.
They still need to be riveted in quantity.

So why not rivet immediately in the right quality?
After all, you need to realize that from 8 to 16 cells will be occupied by the PLUR "Answer", and you still need to have about 16 - 24 anti-ship missiles ("Onyx" \ "Zircon") and the same number of "Calibers" \ "Caliber-M" to work on earth. So 64 PU plya KR look quite harmonious, and the weight difference will be small and it is better to take it into account right now, and not in the process of building a series. The power of the power plant and the declared VI will be quite enough for this.

Quote: Alex777

The increased stock of missiles is also important for the 22350M.

According to the announced plans, it will be 3 times more than that of 22350. And if instead of "Duet" there are two "Pantsir-M", then for the air defense in general you can be calm.

Quote: Alex777

You remember that MO is suing Zvezda-Reducer.
This alone is enough to shift to the right.

I remember about this and the transfer to the law is quite understandable, because of unnecessary attempts by anyone from the power plant for the already unnecessary 20386, and of course because of the expected change of ownership.

Quote: Alex777

The ellings are built correctly. Just believe it.

I would immediately reserve them for (hopefully) upcoming cruisers / destroyers in VI 12 - 000 tons, with air defense based on the S-15 and radars from the S-000, with 400 cruise missiles in the UKSK, with 500 - 80 helicopters and power plant on 2 turbines М3ФР \ ФРУ. I hope this will be so over time.

Quote: Alex777

On the model in front of the hangar, there is a superstructure with a Dagger PU.
Therefore, I called the model incomprehensible.

I, too, were confused by these "aggregates", their firing sector is limited and their place is a little bit out of place. And actually I took them for "Pantsir-M".
But to add a pair of PU - 2 x 4 X-35, I would not mind. It would be very appropriate. Especially considering that for the upgraded 1155 they are planning not even two, but four such launchers for the X-35.
Now everything depends solely on the appearance of the corresponding power plant. Sirech - a gearbox for it, because the turbines are already in serial production.
I would very much like to get at once an analogue in terms of the striking capabilities of the "Arleigh-Burke", but in terms of the composition of the armament it is very much superior to it.
GEM on M70FRU and M90FR allows this.
And if there is a need for a series of frigates of the same dimension as 22350, then I would like to wish her a power plant based on M-75 (7500 hp) + M-90FR. It will be much better that way.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

And if instead of "Duet" there are two "Pantsir-M", then for the air defense in general you can be calm

While the Armor is not needed at all on the 22350M, IMHO.
Its effectiveness is highly dependent on weather conditions.
There were no duets and no duets at 22350. Broadsword.

for already unnecessary 20386

Stop this hypnosis, please.
In 2023, I will remind you of this, and I hope you admit that you criticized in vain.

I would immediately reserve them for (hopefully) upcoming cruisers / destroyers in VI 12 - 000 tons, with air defense based on the S-15 and radars from the S-000, with 400 cruise missiles in the UKSK, with 500 - 80 helicopters and power plant on 2 turbines М3ФР \ ФРУ. I hope this will be so over time.

For ships with a larger VI (cruisers / destroyers), a naval S-500 is needed. Such tasks for such ships and nothing else.

But to add a couple of PU - 2 x 4 X-35, I would not mind

As I wrote above 24 - it could have been. 8 - not enough.

Now everything depends solely on the appearance of the corresponding power plant. Sirech - a gearbox for it, because the turbines are already in serial production.

I agree.

I would very much like to get at once an analogue in terms of the striking capabilities of the "Arleigh-Burke", but in terms of the composition of the armament it is very much superior to it.

Something tells me that our new cruisers will have such weapons that are not on the current ships. Even on Berks.

And if there is a need for a series of frigates of the same dimension as 22350, then I would like to wish her a power plant based on M-75 (7500 hp) + M-90FR. It will be much better that way.

Dimension 22350 was sufficient at the time of the appearance of this project. For a long time.
Now the trend is frigates with VI ~ 7000t. And in terms of energy and seaworthiness.
Nobody will remake 22350.
The future is for 22350M.

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

There were no duets and no duets at 22350. Broadsword.

Sorry, wrong name.

Quote: Alex777

In 2023 I will remind you of this, and you, I hope, admit that you criticized in vain

I don’t even know how to take this, I still don’t see the need for such ships. Even with the innovations that you wrote to me about.

Quote: Alex777

For ships with a larger VI (cruisers / destroyers), a naval S-500 is needed. Such tasks for such ships and nothing else.

For the S-500, a very good AFAR radar turned out, which is now being re-equipped with the already deployed S-400 divisions. It is such a cold radar that would not really interfere with our future cruisers. And I suspect that such a radar is going to be installed on the Nakhimov, which is why the deadline for its delivery has been postponed for a year.

Quote: Alex777

But to add a couple of PU - 2 x 4 X-35, I would not mind

As I wrote above 24 - it could have been. 8 - not enough.

Yes, where is there such a battery to manage?
They can clutter up the whole waist with them ...
I think that in peacetime, 2 x 4 launchers are quite enough - their targets will be VI ships up to 5000 tons at a distance of up to 200 km. What is larger and further - targets for "Onyx" \ "Zircons", and in line of sight, you can work out missiles.
24 pcs. , this is after all 6 (six) PUs of 4 CR ...

Quote: Alex777

Something tells me that our new cruisers will have such weapons that are not on the current ships. Even on Berks.

Yes, but the enemy does not stand still, and long-range anti-ship missiles (up to 1000 km), stealthy and low-altitude, are already in service.
They are also in service with carrier-based aircraft.

Quote: Alex777

Now the trend is frigates with VI ~ 7000t. And in terms of energy and seaworthiness.
Nobody will remake 22350.

Well, then a series of 10 - 12 such ships will be quite enough, they still did not succeed in speed characteristics.
I don’t understand why a power plant with afterburner M20385FRU + two diesel engines for economic propulsion is not considered for the 70 corvettes? This would make it possible to tighten its characteristics, because they are hardly destined to wait for domestic diesel engines of 10 l / s.
In general, a "Karakurt" with a power plant of 1500, one UKSK, a "Packet" of a good BUGAS and a ZRPK "Pantsir-M" would be good for BMZ. It would have come out at 20380 billion rubles. at a price, and could be built "Pella" and "Zelenodolsk", without distracting serious shipyards from the construction of serious ships.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

Yes, where is there such a battery to manage?

For example, like the States, for a new frigate of a similar VI, 16 pcs. drew:

For the S-500, a very good AFAR radar turned out, which is now being re-equipped with the already deployed S-400 divisions. It is such a cold radar that would not really interfere with our future cruisers. And I suspect that such a radar is going to be installed on the Nakhimov, which is why the deadline for its delivery has been postponed for a year.

I completely agree and hope so too.
As the Ticonderogs control all the air defense / missile defense destroyers in the AUG, we also need such an organization.

Well, then a series of 10 - 12 such ships will be quite enough, they still did not succeed in speed characteristics.

If everything goes well with 22350M, they can stop at 8.
For the FM / SPM, they will be quite enough.
And the North and the Far East are in great need of 22350M.

[bayard]

Quote: Alex777

For example, like the States, for a new frigate of a similar VI, 16 pcs. drew:

The American frigate, although it has an equal VI with the 22350M, is much less armed with anti-ship missiles in the UKSK. He will have mainly missiles there.
In our case, for peacetime, two inclined launchers will be quite enough - as an addition of cheap anti-ship missiles to the already existing arsenal in the UKSK. And in the war / threatened period, it will be possible to re-equip the ships in this regard, adding two more such PUs, if there is a place for them on the waist.

Quote: Alex777

If everything goes well with 22350M, they can stop at 8.
For the FM / SPM, they will be quite enough.

10 of them have already been ordered. , although the last two have not yet been laid and are awaiting the release of the slipways. I think before the launch of the 22350M series, they will have time to lay both these two, and two more, bringing the total number to 12 pieces.
It is better to distribute them like this:
- 3 pcs. on the Northern Fleet,
- 3 pcs. at the Black Sea Fleet,
- 6 pcs. to the Pacific Fleet. (because there is now more needed).
And then a series of 20 - 24 22350M, as it seems, has already been announced.

[Alex777]

Quote: bayard

In our case, for peacetime, two inclined launchers will be quite enough - as an addition of cheap anti-ship missiles to the already existing arsenal in the UKSK.

We can already curtail our discussion.
Finally:
1. For the sake of 8 missiles, it makes no sense to fence a garden, they even put 16 on boats.
2. X-35s work decently along the coast, not only on ships, in Syria they were tested "through the window". Not bad for assault support.
3. There are no ships for peacetime. IMHO.

[Orange bigg]

Quote: carstorm 11

At 48?) Build at 24 or less. This is already in my opinion a new modification. Improved.

This project is essentially the destroyer 22350M. For its construction, a boathouse is being built.

... Russia plans to build 12 modernized Project 22350M frigates, each of which will carry the latest hypersonic weapons on board, against which the United States is powerless. These frigates will carry up to 48 Caliber, Onyx and Zircon cruise missiles.

The lead ship of this series is planned to be delivered to the Russian Navy in 2027, a source in the shipbuilding industry told TASS, who noted that by the end of 2019, "a technical project for a ship with a displacement of 7 thousand tons, capable of carrying up to 48 strike missiles, will be developed. Caliber, Onyx and Zircon.

In total, it is planned to build 12 such frigates, 11 of which will be handed over to the customer as part of the new state armament program. The new frigates will also be equipped with the Polyment-Redut anti-aircraft missile system with ammunition load of up to 100 missiles, anti-submarine and torpedo weapons.

The modernized frigates of the 22350M project should also receive a single universal automated fire control system for all types of shipborne weapons. Currently, the Russian Navy includes the lead frigate of the basic project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov", the first serial frigate 22350 "Admiral Kasatonov" is undergoing sea trials, and two other frigates are under construction. The displacement of these ships is significantly less than planned for the 22350M project, and amounts to 4,5 thousand tons, each frigate can carry up to 16 cruise missiles.

https://www.newsru.com/russia/09may2019/hyper_rocket.html

[Sahalinets]

If everything is realized, then 22350 and 22350M will correlate with each other as Tu-22 and Tu-22M. Formally modernization, but in fact a completely new project.

[Sergey39]

There is a conversation about the project 22350M

[Bashkirkhan]

Quote: tralflot1832

So already 6 buildings have been laid and they are in various stages of construction.

A new covered boathouse is required by the shipyard. The frigate of project 22350 under construction on an open slipway is, judging by the screenshots. The video is posted in the following comments.

[donavi49]

No. Under this cipher and that you are already writing 4 subseries, in fact:
1) Gorshkov and Kasatonov. Lead ships with some jambs and Ukrainian turbines (and not only, there is still a small set in the spirit of the 9-10s and the peak of warming). Both are walking.
2) Golovko and Isakov, already in fact transferred to the Russian logical chain, also made numerous corrections and improvements to the project. Golovko is on trial, Isakov is still on the ground.
3) Series 19-20 of the bookmark. A package of improvements and fixes has been made to the project itself, layout and distribution, the shock component has also been increased to 24 missiles (3x8 UKSK) - 4 ships are under construction.
4) A series of 21 or 22 years (it may lay down for the elections, but there is nowhere to build, there are no places and until Amelko / Chichagov is moved, there is nowhere to build. 2 more ordered frigates for 24 strike missiles and with minor improvements.

The 22350M is a completely different ship, twice its displacement, with a pagoda, etc. So far there is nothing to build, design and experimental work is underway.

[svp67]

Quote: tralflot1832

So already 6 buildings have been laid and they are in various stages of construction.

"M-ok" ???????? You are wrong, they are still building the previous project

[jonht]

The plans are good. The main thing is not to shift them to the right.

[Ramadan]

With such managers, shifts in law will be a must!
Northern shipyards owed the general contractor about 1 billion rubles and were not going to pay for the work already completed and signed, as if there was no money. As a result, the work was stopped for several months and the general contractor decided to terminate the contract. But after the investigators got involved in the problem for the actual failure to meet the deadlines for the state order, it turns out that there is money on a special account.
And this is how it is everywhere when working with government orders. You will remain without pants until you build and receive a calculation.

[venik]

"...It will depend on the timing of the commissioning of a new boathouse, the construction of which continues at Severnaya Verf... ... "
========
I would like very much that in the construction of the boathouse there were "shifts" exclusively "to the left"! ....
Although, to be honest, the problem is not only in the "boathouses" - we need TURBINES and gearboxes! But this is the problem! .....

[Bashkirkhan]

Quote: venik

Although, to be honest, the problem is not only in the "boathouses" - we need TURBINES and gearboxes! But this is the problem! .....

Watch this video, everything is laid out there.

[venik]

Quote: Bashkirkhan

Watch this video, everything is laid out there.

===========
Looked! Thank you so much!
One problem - not there nothing [i] [/ i] that I have not seen before! I even saw systems to which I had "some relation"

[lescha.kazakov]

Good afternoon. GTP units began to be produced in the city of Rybinsk, Yaroslavl Region. But in addition to turbines, we also need a Gearbox and many components ...

[venik]

Quote: lescha.kazakov

Good afternoon. GTP units began to be produced in the city of Rybinsk, Yaroslavl Region. But in addition to turbines, we also need a Gearbox and many components ...

=======
And with gearboxes, there are just problems! Petersburg "Star" - obviously "sewn up" with orders. Regularly, the deadlines are disrupted .... The Chinese and Koreans remain .... But putting "imports" on warships is somehow dumb.

[Barberry25]

it will be faster to modernize the Star than to the Koreans and Chinese .. not to mention the fact that the Koreans will not sell, and the Chinese have low quality

[venik]

Quote: Barberry25

it will be faster to modernize the Star than the Koreans and Chinese

========
Yes, there the issue of modernization has long been ripe (and even "overripe")! But first of all, there the entire leadership needs to be changed to hell!

[Barberry25]

in general, you need a commission and a bundle of money .. ideally, you need pre-fabricated buildings with modern equipment.

[venik]

Quote: Barberry25

in general, you need a commission and a bundle of money ..

======
Yes, there is no need for a commission, and even more so not a "wad of money" (there have already been so many thrown in ...), but a large and thick STICK (hit on the head)!
---------

Quote: Barberry25

we need pre-fabricated buildings with modern equipment.

======
There is still a problem WHERE to build these buildings ... And the place seems to be there, but there is not enough for a large building ...
In an amicable way, we need to build another plant, from scratch!

[Barberry25]

so yes .. I have written more than once that new factories need to be built

[venik]

Quote: Barberry25

so yes .. I have written more than once that new factories need to be built

=======
So they build it like ... Only all the same is not enough!
I was pleased with "Kronstadt" - somewhere in May there was information about the construction of a new plant in Dubna. They promised to launch it in the fall. They showed a photo - Mom, don't worry! And there bare place, they just leveled it with bulldozers ... Well, I think: "Aha! Start the plant in the fall, but what autumn?" If this goes on, then by November the UAVs will begin to be assembled ...

[Barberry25]

Well, it's not difficult to build a building now .. take it and twist the metal structures

[lescha.kazakov]

Good afternoon. GTP units began to be produced in the city of Rybinsk, Yaroslavl Region. But in addition to turbines, we also need a Gearbox and many components ...

[lescha.kazakov]

Good afternoon. GTP units began to be produced in the city of Rybinsk, Yaroslavl Region. But in addition to turbines, we also need a Gearbox and many components ...

[cniza]

It will depend on the timing of the commissioning of the new boathouse, the construction of which continues at Severnaya Verf.

Here is the root of the future, but they cannot finish it for a long time ...

[rocket757]

Good morning
Rather, it is part of the foundation on which the state rests.
And so ... our people, people, always are and will be the most important thing, forever and ever.

[cniza]

Greetings!

Of course, part of it, of course the main thing is people ...

[rocket757]

So the construction of an ocean-going fleet is a serious indicator of the restoration of our shipbuilding.
This is plus everything else ... and this is after all the losses that Russia has suffered for various reasons.
We still have to collect society in a heap, to form a stable core !!! Then many problems will be solved faster and more efficiently.

[cniza]

This is an indicator not only for shipbuilding, but also for many related industries, including science ...

[rocket757]

Everything in one piggy bank ... the process is underway.
Our upper ones do not forget that the MAN lives not only by bread alone !!!
Correction of errors, distortions, much more.

[cniza]

Yes, the prestige of the engineer must be increased ...

[rocket757]

The prestige of the country, real so, monumental, is the achievement of all people, and not someone there separately.
All together.

[cniza]

That's right, but we just have a shortage of engineers ...

[rocket757]

And which of the production specialties do we have in abundance ??? I didn't put a tick-toker on the machine, even the most delicious one ...

[cniza]

Yes, there are not enough skilled workers, the vocational schools were all closed ...

[rocket757]

Some things work, but this is not enough in all respects ...
Moreover, there was a massive re-profiling of many schools. Alas, alas, they began to produce managers for all occasions, i.e. not suitable for anything.

[cniza]

Here, here "effective managers" have filled everything, but there are not enough welders ...

[Mountain shooter]

Large serious ship of the oceanic zone. Not "Orlan", but those generally non-systemic heroes, and the weapon became more compact ...

[rocket757]

Welcome
So this is a logical continuation of the development of the fleet building program.
Having only a coastal zone fleet is not logical for a state that wants and can defend its interests seriously and wherever necessary.

[Yamamoto]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

serious ocean-going ship

Will there be enough frigate for the ocean area? 4500 tons at what max pitch can they shoot?

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Yamamoto

Will there be enough frigate for the ocean area? 4500 tons at what max pitch can they shoot?

And the letter M has 7000 tons. Enough.

[lucul]

Will there be enough frigate for the ocean area? 4500 tons at what max pitch can they shoot?

Look at the recent amerskoy film Greyhound. There, a 2500-ton Fletcher-class destroyer is quietly escorting a convoy across the Atlantic.
Fletcher-class destroyers floated calmly on the oceans and kept the ocean wave.

[Yamamoto]

Quote: lucul

Greyhound movie

To be honest, a Hollywood movie is not an indicator for me.
I had no doubts about "swim calmly", I was thinking how to shoot on the ocean wave

[egor1712]

Good news. Don't stop. We are waiting with!

[lucul]

Good news. Don't stop.

Uh-huh, it's straightforward in the USSR - they build space stations, win Olympic gold, launch nuclear submarine cruisers))))

[Abrosimov Sergey Olegovich]

Based on the project code, 22350M is nothing more than a modernized project of the frigate 22350. This is indicated by the same digital index (designation of the main project and the letter M added to the numbers - modernization. This is understandable. However, unlike its predecessor, project 22350 , the new project - 22350M added in armament, dimensions and, therefore, in displacement.
Hence the question: what kind of power plant they plan to use, because if you keep the "native" one, the speed from the 22350 project will inevitably drop, which, you see, is not very pleasant ...

[Mountain shooter]

The standard displacement of the frigate is 7000 tons (8000 tons total), the length will be 160 m (maximum), width 19,0 m (maximum), draft 5,0 m, full speed 30 knots (14 knots economic), range 6000 miles, autonomy 30 days, crew of 300 people, power plant: gas turbine "Saturn": two cruise M70FRU with a capacity of 10,2 MW (14 hp) and two afterburner M000FR with a capacity of 90 MW (20,2 hp), ammunition missiles "Onyx", "Zircon", "Caliber" 27 slots for missiles [500], air defense air defense missile system "Polyment-Redut" with UVP for 48 slots for missiles, two helicopters and UAVs in two deck hangars

Here's what we saw.

[Usher]

gas turbine "Saturn": two cruise M70FRU with a capacity of 10,2 MW (14 hp) and two afterburner M000FR with a capacity of 90 MW (20,2 hp)

as it is not enough for 7000 tons, it is unlikely that 30 knots will be able to give, at least twice as powerful is needed. Moreover, the keen GAK does not add to the speed.

[Mountain shooter]

Total 83 hp ... A lot.
For comparison, "Ticonderoga" - 9000 tons, 80 hp. 000 knots. Earnestly?

[Olkhovsky]

The information is unofficial, the company does not comment on it in any way

Chatterbox - a godsend for the enemy.

[Yamamoto]

My main question is - what tasks do we have in the far ocean zone?
And arising from it - what will the frigates do there? Who will cover them from the air? How to provide PLO without air cover?

[lucul]

My main question is - what tasks do we have in the far ocean zone?

It's a good question, the Navy must cover the merchant fleet, and that one pays its expenses.
But we have almost no merchant fleet, because our oligarchs are not Russians, and they prefer to withdraw billions from Russia, rather than develop something in Russia.

[Yamamoto]

Actually, that's what I mean. Would write that the frigates will be used in BMZ or in the coastal - there would be much fewer questions (they would still be).

[stalkerwalker]

Quote: lucul

But we almost do not have a merchant fleet, because our oligarchs are not Russians, and prefer to withdraw billions from Russia, rather than develop something in Russia

Not in defense of the oligarchs, of course ...
We do not have free capacities at the shipyard to build a modern fleet. All that is left is working for the Navy. If only in Kerch they collect from Panamax-type sections. Yes, fishermen are slowly riveted in Vyborg. And so - on trifles ...
Even during the years of Soviet power, the lion's share of the merchant fleet sailing under the flag of the USSR was built at foreign factories - Poland, Bulgaria, East Germany, Finland. Right now in Sormovo about 60 medium-tonnage vessels are launched per year of the "river-sea" type.
The second part of the question is the domestic owner. Such structures as maritime regional shipping companies have long been sold out in the bud (blessed memory of BMP, the kingdom of heaven ...), remnants in the form of parody copies drag out a miserable existence with ten ships on the balance sheet.
A little off topic, but you can't do without it ...
It was the Soviet effective managers who sold thousands of ships, almost together with the crews in the mid-90s, when they changed the sign.
And if there is a desire to buy ships today, it is very difficult. European shipyards are packed with orders. The Chinese build according to the principle - they will build as they paid.
Today we have neither interested persons nor managerial experience to operate dozens of ships - the transportation market has long been divided by the companies of the world. And we ourselves left, having changed at least some steamers for estates in France, castles in Great Britain, villas on Sunset Boulevard in the Hollywood area.
The revival of the merchant fleet is only possible on the basis of state support. But, as can be seen from the comments on the website, there is a catastrophic lack of funds for the Navy ...

[Cb master]

Who is the navy still supposed to cover for the merchant? Please explain.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Yamamoto

My main question is - what tasks do we have in the far ocean zone?

Citizen under the nickname of the rising sun, you asked the same question three times in different forms: - what will 22350M do in the DMZ? - why are they needed there? (And in response, silence ...)
Therefore, with your permission, a couple of words:
1. Destruction of ships of the missile defense maritime mobile area in the interests of providing offensive operations of the Aerospace Forces (Strategic Missile Forces).

2. Ensuring the passage of the DA to the line of the mission, covering them from carrier aircraft and enemy ships.
3. Inflicting defeat on enemy ships KUG / KPUG,
3a) - the development of success in joint actions with the APRK (SSGN) to defeat the enemy's AUG (AUS).

4. Delivery of missile strikes against important coastal targets of the enemy,
5. Obstruction of the actions of ships / aircraft of mobile submarines on the routes of deployment of our SSBNs / APRKs to areas of combat destination.
6. Prohibition of the passage of the UUV into the areas of operation of our submarine forces.
And so on, up to convoy actions.
Somehow, however.
PS Hefty smart ones will start comparing the ranges of carrier-based aircraft and our ZIRCONS, the presence of a control center for the GZO complexes of our 22350M and other crap, forgetting that they do not act alone, but as part of the forces of the fleet and the support of all the Armed Forces. (As an option - after delivering a preliminary strike on the enemy's NK by the RV forces, for example). This is to ensure that there is something to speculate on at your leisure.
AHA.

[Yamamoto]

Thank you! A fat plus for you, otherwise I already thought they would not answer (
PS yours is definitely the most interesting and significant) so I will not analyze the points - I will ask briefly - how all this will be carried out in (!) The oceanic zone without AWACS (given that the enemy has AWACS), especially considering that you are going to destroy the AUG ? And especially considering (also arising from the opposition of the AUG) that the frigates will not be covered by aviation, but will there be an enemy? In the end, our frigates will not cover YES))) Or the fighter aircraft of the Aerospace Forces freely operates in the oceanic zone? (I really do not know )

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Yamamoto

I will ask briefly

I will answer too - briefly.
1. The control center went into space and for a long time not a problem for our navy ... Ahead is a manned space with an Almaz-type spacecraft.
2. AUG will not be able to lift any aircraft if it encounters a product 2m39 or 3m22 ...
3. Aircraft cover for the NK will be provided by 3 promising AVLs with short takeoff and vertical landing aircraft.

[Yamamoto]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Central Command went into space and has not been a problem for our Navy for a long time

It's a pity, it's a pity, before that (although recently on the site) I seemed to think you were a competent person in the Navy
There is nothing to even talk about ... Central control in space? We have? Tin. If the partners go into space completely in 10-20 years thanks to thousands (or hundreds of at least) vehicles, this will be a huge achievement. I will not say anything about us.
Oh, Alexander, Alexander, how is that? Well, you know that we now have 4 machines in Lianne ...

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Yamamoto

you know that we now have 4 machines in Lianne ...

Dear Hiroo, this does not mean at all that during the threatened period there will be no 20-30 of them ... And I'm not kidding. I just have to communicate with comrades in the service, in the cadet ...

Quote: Yamamoto

I thought I thought you were a competent person in the Navy

Yes, no-eee. I was passing by ... True, I had to "stomp" for 43 years ... 12 of them were of the first rank ...

Quote: Yamamoto

CU in space? We have? Tin.

Maybe you've heard something about the cosmonaut corps ... Maybe about their training too?
But this is beyond the scope of the topic. Therefore, it is better to chew than chat on the site ...
AHA.

[Barberry25]

why should the countries of the ocean zone fleet? go read the textbook

[Bez 310]

I see the people are glad that they are being fooled again, passing off their dreams on the eve of the elections as fictitious success.
The shipyard is under construction, the project is under development, nothing is clear about the engines, and the people are strenuously combing the noodles on their ears.

[senima56]

40 Caliber, Onyx or Zircon missiles? And also "Polyment-Redoubt" for 100 missiles ?! It will be a good "machine"!

[Azimuth]

I have a second question for the advanced and the pros.

Why don't we build destroyer / frigate large displacement ships and nuclear powered support ships? After all, we are undergoing serial construction of nuclear submarines.
It's not about heavy cruisers, of course.

[jayich]

Firstly, it is expensive, and secondly, it is dangerous for the environment, in the event of the sinking of such a ship it is an ecological disaster, to raise a ship or a ship from a depth of more than 100 meters is still a crap.
The operation of such a vessel is a couple of times more expensive than a vessel with a non-nuclear power unit and TD.

[1Leningrad]

There will not be any ships, I work at this plant, and so - there are no qualified specialists and will not be expected. Those who can gradually leave, and the construction of the boathouse has stopped.

[Barberry25]

even talk about "there are no specialists" 10 years ago there were

[Igor Vorobyov]

and the timing of the increase in wages and pensions has not yet been said, or we will be given each according to the caliber and earn a retirement ourselves

[Alex968m]

As soon as possible you need! And more! And retrain into a destroyer!

[Castro Ruiz]

Shift to the right due to gearboxes.
The rest is like bi in ajurite.