Draft program for the training of medical personnel of combat units

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Draft program for the training of military doctors of special forces

Introduction


Based on the results of an earlier review of training programs for medical personnel of special forces and tactical evacuation units in the armies of the US, Israel and NATO countries, the following conclusions were made [1]:



1. Training of all categories of military personnel and medical workers in providing assistance to the wounded at the prehospital stage is carried out within the framework of the international concept of "polytrauma assistance". The concept is based on the principles of care used in resuscitation of emergency surgery [2,3].

2. Military medics of the US Special Operations Forces (USSO) perform specialized tasks: assisting the wounded in small groups, assisting with delayed evacuation, tactical and strategic evacuation, pre-hospital work of specialist doctors, and support for the rebel forces [4].

3. The Israel Defense Forces systematically trains medical personnel for the military echelon and special purpose units within the framework of the concept of “polytrauma assistance” [5].

4. In the future, the medical personnel of the Specialized Forces, the tactical evacuation unit and advanced medical units in the prehospital level will be in demand: the widespread use of means and methods of intensive therapy, an increase in the arsenal of surgical and traumatological skills, diagnosis and treatment of infectious diseases [6].

Purpose of the review


Based on the analysis of information sources and the requirements of representatives of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (RF Armed Forces), a draft program for the training of medical personnel in the Special Forces on the basis of the basic principles of resuscitation and intensive care was formed. Overcoming one of the problems of special operations medicine in the RF Armed Forces is the discrepancy between the level of training of military doctors and the requirements in the Special Operations Forces of the RF Armed Forces.

Proposals of combat specialists to improve the level of special operations medicine


Below are the transcriptions to improve the effectiveness of special operations medicine in the Russian Federation. The scope of application is special purpose units of various ministries and departments.

According to the ones formed in the XIX-XX centuries. In classical views, a military conflict is a clash of two opposing sides, which are sovereign states. Realities of the XX – XXI centuries. indicate that wars and armed conflicts of the modern era seem to be more complex in their internal organization in comparison with the classical model of the XIX-XX centuries. The dynamics of the development of the military-political situation during the maturing and development of an armed conflict is as follows: "Peace - political conflict - crisis - war" [7].

Opponents often try to resolve contradictions either in the course of the political process, or through operations, actions, and the use of “dirty technologies”.
The actions are mainly of a deeply conspiratorial nature, subversive and sabotage activities are being conducted, sabotage is being organized, all-round training of irregular forces, opposition groups, information and psychological operations, intelligence is being carried out, an internal crisis is being prepared or, conversely, prevented.

Thus, the role, place and significance of special forces in a modern armed conflict becomes clear - none of the tasks solved before "Wars", cannot be solved without the systemic, large-scale involvement of special forces.

Study of conflicts of the XX-XXI centuries (Nicaragua, Sudan, the Second Congolese war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Afghanistan, both Iraqi campaigns of the United States and allies, Mexico - the war of drug cartels, Libya, Lebanon, Syria, the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, the civil war in Ukraine, and a number of others) makes it possible to understand that the armed forces can be used not only for their intended purpose, but also take part in various kinds of force actions and special operations, both on their own territory and on the territory of other states [8].

One of the features of modern armed conflicts is that irregular formations are becoming an active participant in a modern armed conflict. Irregular formations can be represented by various types of groupings and associations. In addition, a huge number of other structures are present on the modern battlefield: international humanitarian and human rights organizations, media representatives, etc. A separate category of "participants" in an armed conflict is the population of the conflict territory.

The opposing sides are interested in support from the population, therefore, along with military operations, they carry out so-called humanitarian actions aimed at "winning hearts and minds."

Taking into account the listed facts, the tasks of the special forces can be conditionally divided into two groups:

1. Conducting special operations in phases "Peace - political conflict - crisis" :

- Profile tasks, according to the guidelines.

- Support for irregular formations.

- Participation in the preparation and leadership of the underground on the territory of the enemy, preparation and actions as part of or in cooperation with irregular formations.

- Participation in political and humanitarian operations (for example, vaccination of the population), holding information campaigns, interacting with the population, ensuring the safety of employees of related organizations and units controlled by the media.

2. Participation in combined arms operations of large-scale military conflicts in the phase - "war":

- Action in battle formations in the most difficult sectors in defensive and offensive combined arms operations.

- Carrying out specialized special operations in the framework of a large-scale armed conflict.

- Support for irregular formations.

Based on open materials on the use of special purpose units (SPN) - the main unit of the SPN is the group. The number of special forces personnel involved in a particular event can range from a few people to a combined special forces detachment.

The tasks performed by the special forces groups require comprehensive support. This is intelligence, communications, material and technical, engineering, cynological, topographic, including medical support. For a certain range of tasks, minimal medical support is sufficient - an individual first aid kit and the skills of military personnel to provide self- and mutual assistance.

For a group performing a task in isolation from the operating base, it becomes necessary to have a qualified doctor trained for independent actions to provide first aid and medical aid from several hours to several days, with an appropriate set of medical equipment [9].

In a number of cases, apart from hospitals, a team of doctors is required to organize and conduct evacuation, to provide assistance to armed formations of friendly forces, during humanitarian operations among the population. For example, when deploying a field hospital (medical company / forward point of assistance / evacuation point) [6, 10].

The involvement of doctors to work in special forces units "from the outside" is ineffective, since a medical worker, being directly in the combat formations of a unit, must have sufficient military training, a minimum and sufficient linguistic level, know the specifics of the application and tactics of the unit, the procedure for performing the task and its scope ... The advance stage of preparation, conspiracy, and legend of the tasks performed implies the presence of a doctor on the staff of the special forces unit.

The need for a doctor directly in the special forces unit is often due to the inability to quickly evacuate the victim to a medical institution due to the remoteness of medical facilities, air superiority / effectiveness of the enemy's air defense, blocking / isolation of the group's area of ​​action, intense fire from the enemy, lack of a road network [11 ].

For example, in the experience of current operations in the Syrian Arab Republic (government and allied forces), in 2015-2020, the time of arrival of the victim at the hospital in the absence of opposition in some cases reached 3 hours.

Trained non-staff sanitary instructors are able to provide first aid, but they are not ready either technically or tactically to further monitor the condition of the wounded, respond to changes in it and conduct intensive therapy in the “field” due to lack of necessary knowledge and skills. A number of resuscitation and surgical skills and a significant list of medical equipment, in accordance with the current legislation, have the right to use only medical workers with the appropriate qualifications [12].

Based on the existing experience in the use of special purpose units, the range of tasks solved by medical workers and their skills can be designated as follows:

- providing first aid on the battlefield;

- assessment and monitoring of the condition, if necessary, the use of a complex of resuscitation measures: on the battlefield, during preparation and during evacuation;

- evacuation of the wounded to the hospital link, using resuscitation equipment in auto and air transport, training of evacuation teams;

- qualified transfer of the wounded, control and escort of the wounded when providing him with assistance in the hospital link;

- treatment of the sick and wounded, the evacuation of which is impractical or impossible;

- medical support for the life of the unit and the attached forces in the conditions of the operating base, the deployment and effective functioning of the medical center;

- participation in search and rescue work, including as part of a helicopter search group;

- prevention and counteraction to the spread of infectious diseases, sampling and analysis of the quality of water and food;

- participation in humanitarian actions (providing friendly forces with essential medicines, pediatrics, vaccination, fighting outbreaks of diseases in friendly territory, collecting and processing biomaterial for analysis, providing emergency assistance);

- medical support for special activities;

- performing the duties of a special physiologist;

- knowledge and application of the fundamentals of applied psychology and psychiatry in relation to the tasks of the unit;

- development and adjustment of nutrition programs for various tasks of the Special Purpose Department;

- development and maintenance of programs for pharmacological support of the performance of the military personnel of the group;

- participation in the development and adjustment of physical training programs for various tasks;

- instructor work in the specialty in the subdivision, training of servicemen of the group to the level of "emergency sanitary instructor";

- training of non-staff specialists of friendly forces;

- medical support for irregular friendly forces, consultations in the equipment and deployment of medical facilities, selection and assessment of the qualifications of doctors from among the local population, additional training of this medical staff;

- participation in the development and implementation of promising algorithms for the provision of medical care, new samples of medical technology and equipment, exchange of experience with medical structures of other departments and organizations.

Considering all of the above, the presence of two doctors (officers) in the special purpose unit with basic training in the specialty “resuscitator-anesthesiologist” in a military medical educational institution and additional training in the specialization “doctor of the special purpose unit” will be minimal and sufficient.

Taking into account the request, it is possible to formulate the requirements for the training of a specialist in the specialty.

A specialist in emergency medicine must have knowledge and skills in providing emergency care, master the basic program of resuscitation and intensive care, and therapy of emergency conditions. At the basic level, take a course of infectious diseases, master a number of surgical procedures, take a course of actual military hygiene, have an idea of ​​the physiology and special physiology of activity in relation to special needs, take a course of actual psychology and psychiatry, have an idea of ​​sports medicine and programs of actual physical training.

The most important of the above (in terms of the volume and importance of disciplines) are anesthesiology and resuscitation [13].

As part of the specialization "doctor of a special purpose unit", a basic course of combat training and an advanced course of actual combat training are required [4].
Sections of combat training: fire training, tactical and special training, engineering training, military topography, mountain training, high-altitude training, driving vehicles, parachute-free airborne assault, air navigation, special training, linguistic training, etc. The level of combat and physical training of a special forces doctor, project combat training programs are outside the scope of this article and will be indicated in the appendix.

The complexity of the task of staffing the SP with anesthesiologists-resuscitators


The most prepared to perform these tasks (in the realities of modern medical education in Russia) are anesthesiologists-resuscitators (A&R) [14]. They have the skills to use the means used in intensive care (IT), methods (IT), emergency care skills.

Previously, internship graduates in the specialty of A&R physician were the most suitable candidates for a specialty physician. The specialist training period of 7 years made it possible to quickly prepare a doctor for the unit. Currently, the training of interns in the specialty A&R has been discontinued in the entire system of higher medical education in the Russian Federation.

The training program for A&R residents continues to become more complex due to the basic program and narrow areas (anesthesia during operations in special conditions, cardio and neuroreanimatology, efferent IT methods, nutritiology, A&R in obstetrics and pediatrics) [15].

Service of a doctor in the departments of the Specialized Forces after training in residency is a controversial issue. The skills of specialist doctors are quickly lost, and it is extremely difficult to maintain them in the process of service. Dequalification of a doctor in such conditions is inevitable. Training a doctor for a period of 8 years, which in 4-6 will require serious retraining, is a controversial decision. It should be noted that a modern IT specialist must have the skills to work with a fairly wide range of medical equipment, which is now available in portable versions.

It is also worth mentioning the total shortage of A&R doctors, which was only exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic.

The example of paramedics in the US and NATO should not be misleading. The training period for paramedics in the A&R specialty abroad is 6-7 years. Abroad, the use of the means and methods of A&R in the pre-hospital level and tactical evacuation has been decided, among other things, by involving the medical staff [16, 17, 18].

In the RF Armed Forces, the categories of paramedic and sanitary instructor have low staff mobility, which reduces motivation to improve skills and leads to specialists leaving for other positions. The recruitment of paramedics is extremely difficult and is compensated by the redistribution of responsibilities to doctors and medical instructors. A doctor-officer of all categories of medical workers is the most motivated in growth as a specialist, since he has great prospects.

In the realities of the Russian Federation, the doctor's awareness of the fact that in a combat unit his medical activity can be secondary, the need to undergo serious combat training, the rapid dequalification of a doctor of narrow specialization, getting into an aggressive service environment with an increased risk to life, limit the number of candidates.

At the same time, there is a growing deficit of knowledge, skills and competencies among SPN doctors. The small number of people willing to serve in combat units and the low motivation of candidates, multiplied by the widespread shortage of personnel, seemed to make the task of eliminating the shortage of specialists impossible.

Implementation of the training program for SPN doctors in the Russian Federation


The way out of the situation mentioned above is postgraduate training of SPN doctors on the basis of the basic A&R program. The actual delegation of the basic skills and powers of A&R doctors to SPN doctors, since A&R doctors in practice are engaged in maintaining the vital functions of patients.

Formation of a basic postgraduate program in the form of training and additional training of the medical staff of the Specialized Forces. Creation of a program on a modular basis: medical training, combat training, special disciplines. Overcoming departmental disunity through the use of basic international algorithms and federal standards for the provision of emergency care and A&R care at the prehospital stage. Formation of program options for paramedics and sanitary instructors based on the medical program.

The application of this program will lead to a common denominator for all categories of doctors in the SPN in the specified personnel niches.

The main personnel niches of the prehospital level for doctors in the SPN:

1. Unit doctor: in fact, a medical officer, a specialist - an instructor of military medical training - a special forces fighter is located directly in the combat formations of the unit [19].

2. The doctor of the primary medical center at the prehospital stage [20].

3. Physician of the tactical evacuation link: actually a doctor-operator of the resuscitation and evacuation module based on a car / armored vehicle / helicopter [21].

4. Doctor of the admission / anti-shock department of the primary field hospital, in fact, a doctor with the skills and qualifications of an A&R intern [22].

5. The doctor of the search and rescue group is actually a doctor with the skills and qualifications of an A&R intern, as well as the skills of a rescuer [23].

When staffing combat subunits with medical personnel, there are several sources of personnel: 1 - graduates of civil and military medical schools without independent work experience, 2 - military level doctors, 3 - hospital level doctors. Comparative characteristics of these groups are outside the scope of this article. For example, graduates of civil and military medical universities are the most numerous, most problematic and demotivated category of candidates at the moment.

Review of the draft program for the training of medical personnel in the specialty


The objective of this training program is to transfer the means and methods of resuscitation and intensive care to the prehospital link, to increase the level of care in the special forces and, as a consequence, to increase the survival rate of the wounded.

Increasing the educational level of SPN doctors will allow the use of such tools, methods and IT skills as: artificial ventilation of the lungs, maintenance of airway patency, tracheal intubation, conic and tracheostomy, transfusion therapy of hemorrhagic shock, central venous catheterization, differential analgesia, "FAST" ultrasound protocol , balloon aortic occlusion, monitoring of vital functions, etc. [24, 25].

The program is divided into 3 parts: 1 - medical training based on the basic course of the A&R doctor with the study of the protocols for the provision of emergency care "ABCDE" and "MARCH", 2 - a course on combat training, 3 - a course of additional and special disciplines [26].

The total duration of the training course is from 4 to 8 months, depending on the basic training of the trained doctors [27]. The medical module is the same for departments of various departments. The combat training program may vary. Section 3 - special disciplines, includes subjects that are not studied or studied insufficiently deeply within the framework of a 6-year medical education, while they are not included in sections 1 and 2. A number of special disciplines are not indicated within the framework of the article.

Medical training based on the basic course in anesthesiology and resuscitation:

1. Lecture course.

2. Simulation course on A&R. Study of the protocols for the provision of emergency care "ABCDE" and "MARCH". Ultrasound imaging course.

3. Basic course in anesthesiology, including sections: anesthesia for thoracic operations, anesthesia for polytrauma and other urgent operations.

4. Basic course in resuscitation, with the most relevant sections of IT.

5. A course of some urgent and outpatient surgical procedures. A short course in relevant dental skills.

6. Cycle of work in a multidisciplinary hospital as a doctor on duty in the departments of anesthesiology and resuscitation.

7. Completion of educational programs and courses in emergency medicine based on the concept of "polytrauma care": BLS, ALS, ATLS, PHTLS / ITLS, ЕМS SAFETY, CCEMTP / TPATC / TNATC, TCCC.

Elements of this concept have been partially implemented in the Russian Federation: the system of trauma centers and aviation disaster medicine. At the legislative level, these structures are assigned the priority of providing emergency care for polytrauma in the Russian Federation.

8. Cycle for work in the crews of resuscitation vehicles and ambulance helicopters.

9. An up-to-date course on military medical training, taking into account personnel niches in combat units and at the level of tactical evacuation.

Combat training course:

1. Primary course in combat training.

2. Advanced combat training course.

The course of additional and special disciplines: topical infectious diseases, topical psychology course, sports medicine, special physiology, veterinary medicine, etc.

Conclusion


The ideology of the training program is to increase the educational and professional level of the medical staff in the specialty and create opportunities for a wider use of IT tools and methods at the pre-hospital stage. The application of the program is necessary in the following areas: additional training of active doctors of the Specialized Forces, training of graduates leaving for service in the Specialized Forces

Providing an advanced combat training course for doctors before starting service in the Special Forces is necessary for a number of reasons. A high level of combat training is the main condition for the use of medical skills in a combat situation [28]. The rotation of the specialty specialist in the specified personnel niches in the prehospital level and work together with specialists of the hospital level will increase the level of care.

In the future, the saturation of special forces with doctors is possible due to the creation of separate groups in military medical universities. The departure of some of the graduates to the SPN will create a standard personnel gap between graduation and getting into residency in 3–6 years.

Physicians with experience in SPN are a motivated category for training in clinical residency, with experience in independent work and decision-making.

Service in the Special Forces should be a stage in the service of a military doctor, and not the final place of stay before retirement. The age factor, health, the ability to further study, teach and work in the specialty of a doctor - are the criteria that limit the time of service in the SPN.

The short-term goal is to cover the personnel needs of the prehospital link in the medicine of combat units. The long-term perspective is the formation of a personnel and mobilization reserve and, in general, an increase in the level of military medicine.

At the moment, a number of problems have been resolved: adequate programs have been developed for military medical training and assistance on the battlefield, similar to the leadership of "TCCS"; considerable experience has been accumulated in the participation of military doctors in armed conflicts of low and high intensity, the use of advanced surgical and resuscitation teams is being practiced to strengthen the pre-hospital level. The use of the program based on IT and A&R will increase the possibility and efficiency of the use of advanced surgical teams, create an opportunity for the work of special forces doctors in the hospital link and increase the level of instructor work of military doctors.

Graduates leaving for service in combat units need the knowledge and skills indicated above, it is difficult to obtain them already in the process of service. The SPN military doctor is a category of military doctors that has emerged relatively recently. In the future, it is possible to predict an increase in the number of this category of doctors. It should be emphasized once again that this is a special cohort of specialists who require knowledge and skills that are significantly ahead of the level of training of doctors at the military level.

All information for this article is obtained from open sources.

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  1. +1
    28 July 2021 11: 02
    The system was destroyed. This is a medical fact.
  2. +1
    28 July 2021 11: 09
    ***
    Eternal feat, you can handle it,
    Your hands are sleepless and holy
    I want to bow low to you
    People in white coats ...
    ***
  3. +2
    28 July 2021 11: 18
    I am afraid that the authors still do not understand that in our time there are several types of special forces units in various structures of Russia, which perform completely different tasks. Therefore, it is simply absurd to attract a unified training methodology for medical specialists of special forces units. some special forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs or the Federal Penitentiary Service operate on our territory, not far from hospitals, but the special forces of the FSB or the MTR may be located a thousand kilometers from our state border, and not necessarily in Syria.
    I think that they should undergo specialization only after their future place of service has been determined, and before that their general medical training can take place according to general methods.
    By the way, in Soviet times, in the special forces brigades, officers and warrant officers of medical units had the opportunity to perform parachute jumps, which the doctors in the structures of the Ministry of Internal Affairs did not do - even from this point of view, another selection is needed among the doctors who will fall into the structures of the special forces.
    1. +4
      28 July 2021 11: 44
      In field medicine, there is the concept of "diamond seconds", "golden minutes", etc. Qualified assistance provided in the first seconds after the injury, in the first minutes after it, saves people who otherwise, that is, delayed assistance for at least 20-30 minutes, would simply die. For those who survive, this difference means the difference between a healed wound and a severed hand, for example.
      The nature of wounds from firearms, or traumatic from flying off pieces of metal (bandit sharpenings) is absolutely the same for the special forces of the GRU or the Federal Penitentiary Service. No, absolutely no difference for the wounded in the first half hour).
      Can't resist commenting even on topics that you have absolutely no idea about? That is, you don't know at all, but your fingers itch unbearably? Or is it sealed? Sadness ...
      1. -1
        28 July 2021 12: 12
        Quote: Mikhail3
        The nature of wounds from firearms, or traumatic from flying off pieces of metal (bandit sharpenings) is absolutely the same for the special forces of the GRU or the Federal Penitentiary Service. No, absolutely no difference for the wounded in the first half hour).

        What nonsense are you talking about, not realizing that the intelligence group of the GRU Special Forces does not include a doctor in its composition at all, and all hope is for the personal medical training of the group commander and the rest of the personnel. And the fate of the wounded is decided differently than in the FSIN, because a helicopter will not be sent over the front line or the state border specifically for the evacuation of the wounded. That is why all the GRU special forces know how to act in such cases, but you are an amateur in these matters, so you climb with stupid comments about injuries, not understanding where people are acting.
        Quote: Mikhail3
        Can't resist commenting even on topics that you have absolutely no idea about?

        Have you yourself seen at least one living spetsnaz from brigades or spetsnaz companies? When you meet, ask them how they felt about the term "death row".
        Quote: Mikhail3
        Or is it sealed? Sadness ...

        It's sad to read your stupid comments - so it's your hands that itch from illiteracy, not me.
        1. +3
          28 July 2021 12: 16
          Too bad it doesn't. The commandos are very sorry about this. And yes, they won't send a helicopter. And the most valuable specialist, for whose training millions of dollars were thrown out, will die or remain crippled. When a hippopotamus looks at the moon, it is wasting the flowers of its spleen.
          1. +2
            29 July 2021 09: 20
            You generally imagine that without special equipment, a doctor will simply not be needed there. The very position of a doctor who knows how to shoot is flawed. The San skills of the SP fighters are more than adequate for the conditions in which they will have to work.
            You don't need a doctor on the battlefield. An orderly is needed there.
            1. +1
              29 July 2021 12: 15
              Quote: FireLake
              The San skills of the SP fighters are more than adequate for the conditions in which they will have to work.

              You are absolutely correct in assessing the situation for special forces units, especially since in a separate special forces company even a full-time medical officer was not provided for in Soviet times.
              Quote: FireLake
              You don't need a doctor on the battlefield. An orderly is needed there.

              A doctor is needed in a medical battalion, but not on the battlefield - this is obvious to any professional.
              1. 0
                29 July 2021 12: 57
                https://topwar.ru/58581-zolotoy-chas-ranenogo-soldata.html
                1. 0
                  29 July 2021 13: 49
                  We can discuss an hour, a minute and a second as much as we like. But in a database environment, this is unrealistic. Basically. Especially if BG is at the "exit". A doctor in a group is a burden. Plus, the price tag for such a specialist will be huge.
                  I graduated from the military faculty of mma. I know what I'm talking about.
                  Believe me, the doctor is helpless without the operating room. Moreover, if you really want to include a physician in the DRG SSO, then a nurse with experience in surgery / resuscitation is better suited for this position. Having a doctor there is redundant and harmful.
                  A nurse can insert a catheter and have a puncture. Everything else is from the evil one. History confirms this.
                  Check the real situation with an accident in Moscow time. It is often unrealistic without a helicopter. I am sure during the OBD they will give a dignity board right on the battlefield laughing
                  1. 0
                    30 July 2021 19: 33
                    You contradict yourself, you say that a doctor is powerless without an operating room, but in order to live to see it, a wounded man needs a helicopter even in Moscow time.
                  2. 0
                    30 July 2021 19: 43
                    There is also a doctor in the helicopter.
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2021 19: 46
                      You don't understand the task. Ambulance task: stabilization. The doctor's task: treatment.
                      Go to the ICU and see what equipment is used there. Then to the operating room. Then see what examinations the patient undergoes before the planned operation.
                      Then read a book about the characteristics of gunshot wounds and injuries. Then I think everything will become clear to you.
                      I repeat in field conditions, not a doctor is needed, but a fighter who knows how to put a catheter and do a pleural puncture. The rest is from the evil one.
                      1. 0
                        30 July 2021 20: 25
                        Thank you for your advice on what to see and where to read.
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2021 21: 30
                        Thank you for your advice on what to see and where to read.

                        The article for the dissertation was piled up. laughing
                      3. +1
                        31 July 2021 12: 55
                        Quote: Arzt
                        The article for the dissertation was piled up.

                        And I got the impression that the authors are too far from real military medicine, although I myself have no relation to it, but I saw how it is used in the troops.
                      4. 0
                        31 July 2021 15: 10
                        And I got the impression that the authors are too far from real military medicine, although I myself have no relation to it, but I saw how it is used in the troops.

                        No, they are from military hospitals. They write a dissertation, according to the rules, before defense, articles must be published in different publications. The bigger, the better.
                        https://www.elibrary.ru/item.asp?id=44290031
                      5. 0
                        31 July 2021 15: 27
                        Quote: Arzt
                        No, they are from military hospitals.

                        It makes me sad that our level of military medicine is becoming so unprofessional in terms of command training. Instead of finding out in the hospital which of the military pensioners-doctors served in the special forces, and talking to him about their previous service, they squeeze out very unprofessional articles that only cause a smile from their naivety.

                        https://www.elibrary.ru/item.asp?id=44290031

                        Thank you, everything became clear, especially since they hardly talked with ordinary army doctors from the special forces or from the medical battalions.
                      6. 0
                        31 July 2021 15: 48
                        It makes me sad that our level of military medicine is becoming so unprofessional in terms of command training. Instead of finding out in the hospital which of the military pensioners-doctors served in the special forces, and talking to him about their previous service, they squeeze out very unprofessional articles that only cause a smile from their naivety.

                        As I understand it, we are talking about the era of modern "hybrid" wars. wink

                        There is no problem to recruit a couple of hundred young, physically developed resuscitators and surgeons to "Wagner" or even to regular units. If the university did not pass the military department, they will run as sergeants. They will run for 300 pieces a month.

                        And if something starts, for which we were once prepared, then dentists will operate on our stomachs. wassat
                      7. 0
                        31 July 2021 16: 07
                        Quote: Arzt
                        If the university did not pass the military department, they will run as sergeants. They will run for 300 pieces a month.

                        Well, we are unlikely to be able to provide this in the foreseeable future.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        And if something starts, for which we were once prepared, then dentists will operate on our stomachs.

                        In case of massive defeats, of course, they will force all doctors, despite the VUS to do this. But there is no such need for peacetime, which is why I think that those doctors who want to serve in the army should be trained strictly according to the profile of certain types of the armed forces. After all, it is one thing to go on a campaign to a nuclear submarine, and another thing if they are forced to jump with a parachute - everywhere there is a specificity for a doctor, and one must prepare for this in advance so that they will be useful in a combat situation. And to make a full-fledged military professional out of a doctor is simply stupid - they must pursue their own profession, and this is the main thing. And then we have some "enthusiasts" of military affairs want too much from them, not understanding how it all looks in the field.
                      8. +1
                        31 July 2021 16: 22
                        In case of massive defeats, of course, they will force all doctors, despite the VUS, to do this. But there is no such need for peacetime, which is why I think that those doctors who want to serve in the army should be trained strictly according to the profile of certain types of armed forces. After all, it is one thing to go on a campaign to a nuclear submarine, and another thing if they are forced to jump with a parachute - everywhere there is a specificity for a doctor, and one must prepare for this in advance so that they will be useful in a combat situation.

                        So they cook.
                        https://www.vmeda.org/s-02-01/

                        And to make a full-fledged military professional out of a doctor is simply stupid - they must pursue their own profession, and this is the main thing. And then we have some "enthusiasts" of military affairs want too much from them, not understanding how it all looks in the field.

                        I remember my classmate who in the second Chechen war ended up in a special forces brigade.
                        When on the line to the question: "What kind of doctor are you?" he answered "Radiologist", the commander said: "Well, excuse me, my friend, we do not have a fluorograph, there are no patients either, here's an SVD for you, look into this glass, maybe you will see something there."
                        Then the line lay down with laughter. So he fought for a year, sometimes bandaging and accompanying him on a helicopter. laughing
                      9. 0
                        31 July 2021 16: 44
                        Quote: Arzt
                        So they cook.

                        But this is still a basic medical education, and I meant that after some time they should be additionally trained (or retrained) within the framework of the type of armed forces on the basis of central hospitals, or hospitals in the district. Although this is my personal opinion, it is possible that everything is not so simple with this case now, but it would be useful for sure.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        the commander said: "Well, sorry buddy,

                        Absolutely fits with what I heard in similar cases in Soviet times. The brigade commanders explain everything in an unpretentious manner, but it is clear the first time.
                        Here's an episode that will probably amuse you about that time:
                        This took place in the summer, during the period of active study and preparation for the autumn final check. Walking around the territory of the unit somehow, the commander drew attention to the weeping willows located along the asphalt road and with their branches reaching the ground, which did not really harmonize from the point of view of military aesthetics. The decision was made immediately and after a while the commander of the detachment responsible for this territory was instructed to organize the cutting of all long branches to a level of 2 m 50 cm from the ground so that the trees would have a cultivated appearance and did not reach the headgear of the military personnel. Then everything went according to the knurled scheme: the commander of the detachment set a task for the company commander, he, according to his foreman, who, being quite worn, made a rail of the specified length and, having handed it to the sergeant, voiced the order of the brigade commander in an acceptable form.
                        It was customary to start pruning trees after dinner, for which ten (or so) soldiers were allocated, having previously armed them with special forces hand saws.
                        As the sergeant understood the task, one can only guess, but in the morning, when the first officers began to arrive at the headquarters, the picture was as follows: along the road, like tipsy telegraph poles, there were stumps of willows 2 m 50 cm high without a single leaf. What did V.M. Having seen this landscape, history is silent - perhaps, I recalled the threats of the half-dead dushmans or the intrigues of the NATO special services (they even somehow showed up at the shooting range), who decided to disgrace and destroy the glorious name of this worthy person, but as my friend and colleague A.M. (he was the head of one of the brigade's services) "There was a complete n ...".

                        https://zapravdu.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2561&start=50
                      10. +1
                        31 July 2021 17: 02
                        But this is still a basic medical education, and I meant that after some time they should be additionally trained (or retrained) within the framework of the type of armed forces on the basis of central hospitals, or hospitals in the district. Although this is my personal opinion, it is possible that everything is not so simple with this case now, but it would be useful for sure.

                        First they go to the troops. The level of the regiment or the Omedb division.
                        After 3 years, you can try to break out to specialization in clinical residency in the specialty (if the commander releases wink ). After residency (3 years) - to the hospital as a doctor.

                        But some remain in the army, making a career before the division's deputy head. From this grid and above, you can try to enter the Command Faculty of VMedA.
                        Further - the chief medical officer or the head of the hospital, sanatorium, medical service of the district.

                        If you first got into a special forces brigade, there is an option further to the Military-Diplomatic Academy with further service as a "Military Diplomat" bully
                        Or you can stay if you love mountains. love
                      11. 0
                        31 July 2021 19: 14
                        Quote: Arzt
                        If you first got into a special forces brigade, there is an option further to the Military-Diplomatic Academy with further service as a "Military Diplomat"

                        This is unlikely - after all, they are taken there from the intelligence VUS, and even after an internship in the intelligence department of the district. It used to be like that, I don't think that something has changed now.
                        Quote: Arzt
                        Further - the chief medical officer or the head of the hospital, sanatorium, medical service of the district.

                        When I was fired in the nineties, I was in the Central Hospital - there the head of the department had a colonel's position, and his deputy seemed to be forks, but I don't remember exactly. Now all this has been reduced by at least a level, judging by one of the officers from Burdenko, with whom our sons studied in the same class.
                    2. 0
                      30 July 2021 19: 49
                      What manipulations does he carry out there?)
                      1. 0
                        30 July 2021 20: 11
                        Yes, Orit conducts all the basic manipulations. There is a full video on the network, it is better to see it once.
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2021 20: 21
                        So which ones? Sewing vessels? Sewing nerves? Or what? When did you write an article in general, did you read books on field medicine? Are you aware of the order in which assistance is provided?
                      3. -1
                        30 July 2021 20: 28
                        At the end of the article, I have indicated a list of links to sources.
                      4. 0
                        31 July 2021 12: 08
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        assisted. Moreover, if you really want to include a doctor in the DRG SSO, then a nurse with experience in surgery / resuscitation is better suited for this position. Having a doctor there is redundant and harmful.
                        Place the catheter and make a puncture

                        Please answer the direct question. Interesting to readers.
                      5. 0
                        31 July 2021 13: 25
                        The question is not clear to me.

                        "Well, what kind? Does he sew? He sews nerves? Or what? When did you write an article in general, did you read books on field medicine? Are you aware of the order of assistance?"
                      6. +1
                        31 July 2021 19: 33
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        The question is not clear to me.

                        "Well, what kind? Does he sew? He sews nerves? Or what? When did you write an article in general, did you read books on field medicine? Are you aware of the order of assistance?"

                        And what do you not understand in the question? You were asked about 1) the sequence of events ... 2) based on the sequence, those manipulations that will be carried out ...

                        I suspect that when moving from abstractions to specifics, it will become clear that a doctor is really not needed there.

                        For example, in the article about the golden hour, it was said about shock and blood loss.
                        But sorry, prevention of shock and blood loss is taught in EFR courses. This is not even a medical education, but just a set of basic skills.


                        As for the order of events ... the first thing is not to become a victim.
                        And here you need to dance from the haratker of the special forces operations, how quickly some of their situations are resolved.
                        For example, can a doctor safely run to a wounded soldier in a battle?
                        There is not always an opportunity to attack, therefore, with a normal approach, the fighters are taught to help themselves - to chop off and install a turnstile, for example.

                        Moreover, no one guarantees that the outcome of the battle is guaranteed to be resolved in "our" favor.
                        And the question arises, which is better, to save "Vanechka" or to fight.

                        In addition, it has rightly been noted that without an equipped operating system, the effectiveness of prof. the doctor's rate drops sharply.

                        I had the experience of observing CPR done by a practicing surgeon outside the hospital, all he could do was ... pump.
                        What else could he do?
                        And what can a doctor do in battle?
                        1) Inject anesthetic and anti-shock.
                        2) Stop blood loss.
                        3) Replenish blood loss with a limited volume of saline
                        4) Inject antibiotics or treat the wound with local ones - here I don't know which is preferable anymore, it seems like modern materials for tamponing already contain antibiotics.
                        5) Install catheters
                        6) Bandage + immobilization of injured limbs.
                        7) Tracking status

                        And that's all on this principle. He will not do an abdominal operation, he will not sew up the liver.
                        And then medicine ends, because modern medicine relies on the results of research and diagnostics. Doctors are not shamans - when you come to a doctor, he cannot reliably tell you what is wrong with you, but prescribes a series of examinations and on the basis of their results a diagnosis is made and treatment is prescribed.
                        And all these manipulations are not at all 7 years of training.


                        And the fact that you cited about Israel is still somewhat different.
                        First, they have a different attitude towards military service. Situations are really possible there when tough surgeons leave the clinic for a while, take a Colt and run somewhere near the front line.
                        And then we are talking more about this - the creation of mobile mini-hospitals, with operating rooms inside, say, KAMAZ, where the soldier will be delivered within 5-15 minutes after being wounded.
                        But the doctors working there are 90% doctors ... and only 10% are soldiers.

                        Plus because there is an equipped machine, this allows them to realize their potential - there is the possibility of mechanical ventilation, oxygen, a monitor,

                        You were talking about how to make a superhero ... who will run on the front line and do operations in the field without "nothing" ..
                      7. -2
                        31 July 2021 22: 53
                        Firstly, all modern protocols for providing assistance are indicated in the article, TCCC, PHTLS me, lTLS, ATLS, etc. The sequence and the main activities are indicated there, I see no reason to clutter up the comments with the reference material of the algorithms and manuals.

                        Secondly, you have an interesting logic, one and the same doctor in the Russian Armed Forces cannot do anything, in Israel everything - there are a lot of doctors who study in Russia and serve the IDF.

                        Thirdly, the authors write about the topic they understand.
                        If you have an alternative opinion on this issue, you can voice it in an alternative article.
                      8. 0
                        1 August 2021 10: 47
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        Firstly, all modern protocols for providing assistance are indicated in the article, TCCC,

                        We read.
                        TCCC-MP (TCCC for Medical Personnel) is a 16-hour course for military medical personnel including medics, corpsmen, and pararescue personnel deploying in support of combat operations.
                        TCCC-CLS (TCCC Combat Lifesaver) is a 40-hour course for non-medical military personnel deploying in support of combat operations.

                        40 hour course.
                        What does 40 hour courses have to do with prof. to the doctor.

                        I see no reason to clutter up comments with reference material for algorithms and manuals.

                        No ... just as already written
                        I suspect that when moving from abstractions to specifics, it will become clear that a doctor is really not needed there.




                        Thirdly, the authors write about the topic they understand.

                        To be honest, it is not noticeable.
                        The level of argumentation and logical thinking is near-zero, it seems that people simply pulled a bunch of material from different sources but on their own could not properly structure it, first of all in their heads.

                        Secondly, you have an interesting logic, one and the same doctor in the Russian Armed Forces cannot do anything, in Israel everything - there are a lot of doctors who study in Russia and serve the IDF.

                        You shouldn't attribute such logic to me.

                        For example, what is written in the article you are linking to
                        At the height of the battle, the wounded began to enter the tank bulan. Among them was an officer who was seriously injured - a bullet of an enemy sniper hit him in the face. Kaminskaya, right on the battlefield, gave him first aid and took him to the tank bulanse to the helipad, from where the wounded were taken by helicopter to the hospital in Haifa.

                        FIRST AID was provided to him.
                        Do you need a doctor for first aid?

                        More from your own links
                        It is believed that up to 80% of those injured die from blood loss.

                        Loss of blood - turnstile, rubber band, who has what, who knows what.
                        And pour in a saline solution.
                        Pain reliever and anti-shock antibiotics.
                        Все.
                        Do you need a doctor for this?

                        You are asked the 101st time - write an operation that will need to be carried out on the battlefield and for which you will need a full-fledged resuscitation doctor who has trained for 7 years?
                        You continue to provide links to materials where it is said about 40-hour courses, 80% of deaths due to blood loss and "first aid" provided.

                        Have you read what you are referring to?
                        And what of this really says about the need for a doctor?
                        But I found it ...
                        A common cause of death of the wounded is painful shock. Now all military paramedics have automatic syringes for injecting morphine, as well as a new drug, Aktik, based on fentanyl, a hundred times stronger than morphine. This medicine is placed under the tongue and the pain disappears for at least an hour.

                        Putting it in the mouth under the tongue is yes ... such an operation is complicated.
                      9. +1
                        1 August 2021 18: 10
                        And what can a doctor do in battle?
                        1) Inject anesthetic and anti-shock.
                        2) Stop blood loss.
                        3) Replenish blood loss with a limited volume of saline
                        4) Inject antibiotics or treat the wound with local ones - here I don't know which is preferable anymore, it seems like modern materials for tamponing already contain antibiotics.
                        5) Install catheters
                        6) Bandage + immobilization of injured limbs.
                        7) Tracking status

                        The authors try to pull up to the cutting edge of resuscitators for two things that aren't on your list.

                        1. Intubation of the trachea and manual ventilation.
                        2. Catheterization of the central veins with collapsed peripheral veins (shock).

                        The overwhelming number of victims of the terrorist attack on Dubrovka simply suffocated due to the sinking of their language.
                        A regular airway, secured with a bandage, would give them a chance, not to mention intubation.

                        But paramedics can also be trained to do this.
                      10. -1
                        31 July 2021 13: 29
                        The article indicates personnel niches where the effect of the use of a doctor will be. There is also an abbreviated list of events and manipulations.
                        As for the doctor in the group: as far as the format of the article allows, this is written.
                      11. +1
                        30 July 2021 20: 29
                        Even in the article that you threw here, it is clear that the doctor on the battlefield is engaged in stabilizing the patient's condition and not treating him. I repeat that the doctor is redundant for such a task. He is not engaged in treatment on the battlefield, for this he needs an operating room and an instrument of which he is not with him. Infusion can be done, puncture and so on. But the TREATMENT goes in the rear.
                      12. -1
                        30 July 2021 23: 14
                        If there is a doctor in Tsakhal, then they need him.
                        What is your personal choice ???
                        1 you will be stabilized by a serviceman who studied for half a year on simulators and trained on biological objects and now he will try it for the first time or not.
                        2 you will be stabilized by a doctor who, during training, was engaged in the stabilization that is so necessary at the moment.
                      13. +1
                        31 July 2021 01: 51
                        Initially, a different approach, which is due to the OBD theater and different tactics of using the sun. The approach is superfluous, taking into account military operations with an equal adversary, the approach is sound in the context of CTO and limited intervention.
                        If a country has the ability to remove people from the health care system without deteriorating it, then approx. In Russia it is impossible, therefore, in Russia there will be a fighter with Sun whose skills are quite enough for the current tasks. And I repeat: a doctor is redundant for such tasks. His death will hit the country's pocket hard.
                2. 0
                  29 July 2021 13: 59
                  Quote: DR - MED

                  0
                  How does Israeli field medicine work
                  https://topwar.ru/58581-zolotoy-chas-ranenogo-soldata.html

                  Well, what kind of medicine will help an Israeli soldier if he is thrown into Iran for sabotage at some large facility, and he is wounded there? You do not seem to understand that special forces can operate where it is physically impossible to ensure your notorious "golden hour", which means that your methods will not work there at all.
                  1. -1
                    30 July 2021 19: 34
                    Israel is doing all right with combat experience and with special forces and military medicine. And everything works with doctors on the battlefield.
                    1. 0
                      30 July 2021 20: 37
                      Quote: DR - MED
                      Israel is doing all right with combat experience and with special forces and military medicine. And everything works with doctors on the battlefield.

                      Of course, everything is all right, since so many years they cannot deal with the Arabs and live in peace with them.
                      But you did not indicate how they will evacuate or operate on the site of a wounded special forces soldier thousands of kilometers from their territory, taking into account your idea about the "golden hour". Can you tell us about this?
                      1. 0
                        30 July 2021 20: 42
                        There, there is a reference in the sources to the French in Mali about tactical evacuation over long distances. And what you need to do.
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2021 20: 57
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        There, there is a reference in the sources to the French in Mali about tactical evacuation over long distances. And what you need to do.

                        I understood that you cannot answer anything intelligible. Krasnodar told you how the Israelis took one doctor on board a large plane for an operation in Kenya, because the outcome of the operation was unclear, and there were a lot of servicemen. But everything ended well, and nevertheless one wounded man died, and the second became disabled. Even if there was no doctor, but there was a medical instructor, the losses would be the same. This is the answer to what a doctor can really do in such a situation.
                      3. 0
                        30 July 2021 21: 58
                        There are more recent examples on this topic.
              2. +2
                1 August 2021 13: 45
                Quote: FireLake
                You generally imagine that without special equipment, a doctor will simply not be needed there.

                Quote: ccsr
                A doctor is needed in a medical battalion, but not on the battlefield - this is obvious to any professional.

                By no means I'm not talking about stupid copying, but if we are talking about it, then to ensure the so-called "golden hour" it is worth looking at sworn friends: especially USAF Pararescue Jumpers: PJ and a very small community - no more than half a thousand, together with reservists, prepared for initial medical actions / course - 9 months /, firmly prepared to pull out in battle - only one person follows one person to the ground - trained as special forces. It is impossible not to mention the air component: rescue squadrons assigned to each wing on missions; 160soar; marines ... and a separate rescue coordination service.
                Our special forces initially have a different philosophy - do not be a burden ... which is undoubtedly worthy of respect, although sometimes it seems that this is from a lack of funding
            2. 0
              29 July 2021 12: 56
              https://topwar.ru/58581-zolotoy-chas-ranenogo-soldata.html
            3. 0
              29 July 2021 12: 57
              https://topwar.ru/58581-zolotoy-chas-ranenogo-soldata.html
        2. 0
          28 July 2021 16: 31
          Quote: ccsr
          but you are an amateur in these matters, so you climb with stupid comments about injuries, not understanding where people are acting
          Your self-confidence is simply amazing and equal, approximately, to your lack of understanding of the simplest things.

          Quote: ccsr
          That is why all the special forces of the GRU know how to act in such cases.
          They are all polls proficient in artificial ventilation, airway maintenance, tracheal intubation, conic and tracheostomy, hemorrhagic shock transfusion therapy, central venous catheterization, differential analgesia, "FAST" ultrasound protocol, balloon aortic occlusion, monitoring of vital functions So what? This is okay, this is difficult for you, but to understand that the absence of a qualified medic will turn an injured member of the special forces group into the one you put in quotes.
          Quote: ccsr
          Have you yourself seen at least one living spetsnaz from brigades or spetsnaz companies? When you meet, ask them how they felt about the term "death row".

          Well, and not to understand that the special forces are not limited to either the GRU, or even specifically there, by deep reconnaissance groups, this says a lot about your level.
          1. 0
            28 July 2021 16: 51
            ultrasound protocol, balloon aortic occlusion

            This is done in a field hospital (very good), how do you imagine equipment for monitoring and visualization and catheterization as equipment for a fully loaded special forces group? laughing
            1. 0
              28 July 2021 17: 01
              Quote: Krasnodar
              how do you imagine equipment for monitoring and visualization
              What century are you writing from?

              White and colored turns into green and black and white, but strong.

              Quote: Krasnodar
              apparatus for ... ... catheterization
              Oh yes, also the equipment from the heavy:
              1. 0
                28 July 2021 17: 07
                laughing
                This portable ultrasound can be informative only for an experienced doctor, and you are going to do aortic occlusion under the visualization of this sonography? lol
                1. -1
                  28 July 2021 17: 20
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  This portable ultrasound can be informative only for an experienced doctor, and you are going to do aortic occlusion under the visualization of this sonography?

                  Oh well, it starts as soon as the device was found, suddenly, so urgently, "a very experienced physician" was required, what will be required next, the council of luminaries? And what neither I nor even you can do, other people, military doctors, for example, can probably do it, for example: The introduction and positioning of the balloon catheter was performed using a “blind” method with subsequent X-ray confirmation ... .... During the exercise, the fundamental possibility of performing EVBO without the use of X-ray imaging equipment was proved, which makes it possible to place it in the advanced stages of medical evacuation.
                  1. 0
                    28 July 2021 17: 51

                    Oh well, it starts as soon as the device was found, suddenly, so urgently, "a very experienced physician" was required, what will be required next, the council of luminaries?

                    Have you ever seen internal bleeding on an ultrasound monitor in a hospital, say? Will the therapist be able to see a splinter, a bullet, distinguish the touchstone of a projectile from a splinter of bone? For example. Further - I distinguished. What to do about it? ))
                    .... During the exercise, it was proved that it is fundamentally possible to perform EVBO without the use of X-ray imaging equipment, which makes it possible to carry it out to the advanced stages of medical evacuation.

                    How can this be done blindly? request
                    1. 0
                      28 July 2021 18: 38
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      Will the therapist be able to see a splinter, a bullet, distinguish the touchstone of a projectile from a splinter of bone?
                      That's how cute, THE THERAPIST, and what is not the Obstetrician, with all due respect? Are therapists mentioned in the article?
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      For example. Further - I discerned. What to do about it?
                      I don’t know, you’re an expert in emergency medical care for polytrauma. Or not? But military doctors are experts, they know what to do. Or not? What you can’t do doesn’t mean that others can’t do it, for example, use a search by a piece of text.

                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      How can this be done blindly?


                      In one case, surgical access to the right common femoral artery (OBA) was performed to perform EVBOA in the operating room of the medical company, then the artery was punctured according to the Seldinger technique.on ultrasound navigation with the ClariusL7 handheld scanner (Clarius Mobile Health, Canada). The insertion and positioning of the balloon catheter was performed in a “blind” method with subsequent radiological confirmation.

                      https://vmeda.mil.ru/upload/site56/document_file/oHmlku8hRV.pdf
                      1. -3
                        28 July 2021 18: 53
                        That's how cute, THE THERAPIST, and what is not the Obstetrician, with all due respect? Are therapists mentioned in the article?

                        Ok, traumatologist-resuscitator laughing Do you understand what a person's level of proficiency in ultrasound should be in order to understand something on such a tablet in the field?
                        under ultrasound navigation with a handheld ClariusL7 scanner

                        Oy-wei ... Clarius Al 7 - this is that laptop with the ultrasound sensor?
                      2. -1
                        28 July 2021 19: 23
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Do you understand what a person's level of proficiency in ultrasound should be in order to understand something on such a tablet in the field?
                        Well, it is clear what kind of trained physician, in general, they write about them in the article. Are you a trained medic?
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Oy-wei ... Clarius Al 7 - this is that laptop with the ultrasound sensor?
                        Is this a tricky question? And if not, what if I stupidly typed a "portable ultrasound machine" and brought the first one that came across? What will change?
                      3. 0
                        28 July 2021 21: 51
                        Well, it is clear what kind of trained physician, in general, they write about them in the article. Are you a trained medic?
                        Of course not. It must be a doctor with multiple qualifications, incl. special training in the use of this ultrasound for catheterization including.
                        Is this a tricky question? And if not, what if I stupidly typed a "portable ultrasound machine" and brought the first one that came across? What will change?

                        Any apparatus that allows high-quality control of catheterization is more massive, is an extra burden for special forces operations.
              2. +1
                29 July 2021 07: 38
                What century are you writing from?

                In action.

                1. 0
                  30 July 2021 20: 23
                  That's how good - just how to connect it to a phone bought somewhere in the enemy's country)).
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2021 20: 58
                    That's how good - just how to connect it to a phone bought somewhere in the enemy's country)).

                    Like everything else - download the application, attach it and go.
                    Phillips did too.

                    1. 0
                      30 July 2021 22: 24
                      If there is a phone number in the wrong country, they will be detected immediately after the battle
              3. +1
                31 July 2021 01: 53
                Do not forget a set of sensors and akb.
                1. 0
                  31 July 2021 15: 03
                  Do not forget a set of sensors and akb.

                  One sensor is enough for everything basic.

            2. +2
              28 July 2021 17: 51
              Quote: Krasnodar
              This is done in a field hospital (very good), how do you imagine equipment for monitoring and visualization and catheterization as equipment for a fully loaded special forces group?

              This person does not understand what he is writing, because in the group there is so much hung on each special forces soldier that nothing superfluous can be added, otherwise he will have to be brought into the plane with two parachutes in winter.
              As I understand it, he speculatively decided that a special forces soldier is like a horse and he can be loaded to the point of being sold with all sorts of gadgets. Moreover, he is already trained in so many skills that it is just stupidity to make him a doctor, because it is enough for him to be able to competently stop bleeding, bring a person to consciousness, apply bandages, use anesthetic drugs and similar simple skills that can it will come in handy in a critical situation.
              1. 0
                28 July 2021 18: 40
                Well, yes, to distribute a small operating room to people in addition to everything that exists. laughing The course of paramedics in the world has long been not something out of the ordinary - an ordinary army profession, such as an advanced soldier, military assistant.
                1. +1
                  30 July 2021 19: 40
                  Have you seen a lot of male military paramedics? The article explains why this is the smallest category.
                  1. 0
                    30 July 2021 20: 00
                    In the military forces of Israel, these are the fighters who have completed this course)). And there are a few girls, very few, from units where there are female fighters. Pakal hovesh - special forces stretchers, infusions, etc. - weighs over 30 kg, together with weapons and unloading with a helmet - more))
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2021 20: 14
                      There, and about the medical staff is written. One does not cancel the other.
              2. +1
                29 July 2021 09: 26
                I imagined how this poor doctor would still renew his certificate. This is PPC ... the salary must be done in 1 million and then no one will go because the education system based on tests does not give such knowledge
                1. 0
                  30 July 2021 20: 02
                  Quote: FireLake
                  I imagined how this poor doctor would still renew his certificate. This is PPC ... the salary must be done in 1 million and then no one will go because the education system based on tests does not give such knowledge

                  In the West, the entire tower is based on tests - compare it, in most directions, with the Russian one))
                  1. 0
                    31 July 2021 01: 55
                    Googling the fundamental difference in medical education is, of course, very difficult. There the system is built differently. They make very narrow specialists there.
                    1. 0
                      31 July 2021 15: 59
                      6 years of general, from 4 to 6 years of specialization - everything is like everywhere else.
                      1. 0
                        31 July 2021 19: 32
                        Postgraduate is different both in terms of time and quality. Different education in terms of quality in principle.
          2. +1
            28 July 2021 17: 41
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            They are all proficient in artificial ventilation, airway maintenance, tracheal intubation, conic and tracheostomy, hemorrhagic shock transfusion therapy, central venous catheterization, differential analgesia, FAST ultrasound protocol, aortic balloon occlusion, vital functions monitoring So what?

            All this is useless when the group is pursued by the enemy, and one is wounded so that he cannot move - your intelligence apparently does not allow such a situation. And any special forces soldier is ready for this, that's why they know how to act in such a situation, and it's not about medicine.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            This is okay, this is difficult for you, but to understand that the absence of a qualified medic will turn an injured member of the special forces group into the one you put in quotes.

            You are definitely illiterate in military affairs, because a medic will never be included in a group of 6-8 special forces, if only because he will be a burden for the entire group due to the lack of physical data for conducting reconnaissance deep behind enemy lines.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Well, and not to understand that the special forces are not limited to either the GRU, or even specifically there, by deep reconnaissance groups, this says a lot about your level.

            Again they began to be clever, not realizing that the special forces are different, which is why the authors of the article drew some kind of picture that does not correspond to the actions of the intelligence special forces. So it's not for you, verbiage, to judge my level, since you do not understand the essence of the article.
            1. -2
              28 July 2021 18: 29
              Quote: ccsr
              All this is useless when the group is pursued by the enemy, and one is wounded so that he cannot move - your intelligence apparently does not allow such a situation.

              And this person writes something, about:
              Quote: ccsr
              Have you yourself seen at least one living spetsnaz from brigades or spetsnaz companies? When you meet, ask them how they felt about the term "death row".
              being unable to see the elementary contradictions in their own words.

              Quote: ccsr
              You are definitely illiterate in military affairs, because a medic will never be included in a group of 6-8 special forces, if only because he will be a burden for the entire group due to the lack of physical data for conducting reconnaissance deep behind enemy lines.
              Your knowledge of military affairs seems to be limited by the knowledge of the words "deep reconnaissance" otherwise you would not imagine that all the special forces of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are engaged only in "deep reconnaissance", only on foot and only in groups of no more than 8 people and without air support and without the possibility of evacuation.
              Ay, super special forces, the targets of the special forces are different, these forces act at different depths, different numbers and very often with air support, and such as you, a super expert, condemns a seriously wounded person to death, despite the fact that the opportunity to pick him up is available.


              Quote: ccsr
              Again they began to be clever, not realizing that the special forces are different, which is why the authors of the article drew some kind of picture that does not correspond to the actions of the intelligence special forces.
              Well, this is already idiocy, I wrote to you:

              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Well, do not understand that the forces of the SPNe not limited to no GRUnor even specifically there, rdeep reconnaissance groups it says a lot about your level.
              Different forces of the Special Forces, DIFFERENT, have you debited that you don't see it? You are not able to master the simplest words.
              1. +1
                28 July 2021 18: 45
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                being unable to see the elementary contradictions in their own words.

                Well, you point out what the contradiction is?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Your knowledge of military affairs seems to be limited by the knowledge of the words "deep reconnaissance" otherwise you would not imagine that all the special forces of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are engaged only in "deep reconnaissance", only on foot and only in groups of no more than 8 people and without air support and without the possibility of evacuation.

                Don't talk nonsense, this is what a modern intelligence chief says about deep reconnaissance:
                The concept of "deep reconnaissance" will appear in the combat practice of the RF Armed Forces.
                "Now we will introduce such a concept as deep reconnaissance. In terms of the depth of application, it will stand between military reconnaissance and special reconnaissance," MK quotes Deputy Chief of the Main Staff of the RF Ground Forces Major General Vladimir Marusin.
                According to the chief of intelligence, there are three levels of division of military intelligence: strategic intelligence, operational intelligence, or district (front) intelligence. Then comes the reconnaissance of the tactical echelon.
                “So, tactical reconnaissance is military reconnaissance, intelligence of the front line, the one that works directly with the enemy. Special reconnaissance - spetsnaz - works to a depth of 400 kilometers and beyond. Its tasks primarily include disabling the means of strategic deterrence. These are also scouts, just each has its own tasks and depth of application, its own area of ​​responsibility. By the way, we also use special forces in solving tasks in tactical depth. This is a normal practice, "- explained Marusin.

                Read at https://www.pravda.ru/news/districts/1352385-razvedka/
                I wonder how you imagine going 400 km on foot for reconnaissance, "specialist"?

                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                and someone like you, a super-expert, condemns the seriously wounded to death, despite the fact that the opportunity to pick him up is available.

                You are definitely an amateur, because because of one wounded special forces soldier, no one will drive the helicopter, if only because not to unmask the entire group with such a flight. So the death of the commandos will just save the rest of the group - and everyone knows that.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Different forces of the Special Forces, DIFFERENT, have you debited that you don't see it?

                As they were a boor, so they remained, And they also had the audacity to write in a personal, asking that I not touch you.
                1. 0
                  28 July 2021 19: 08
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Well, you point out what the contradiction is?

                  Well, of course, work like a fool:
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Quote: ccsr
                  All this is useless when the group is pursued by the enemy, and one is wounded so that he cannot move - your intelligence apparently does not allow such a situation.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  Have you yourself seen at least one living spetsnaz from brigades or spetsnaz companies? When you meet, ask them how they felt about the term "death row".
                  You do not consider the Special Forces soldiers to be "suicide bombers" but at the same time deny them emergency medical aid, this is a negative logic level.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  Don't talk nonsense, this is what a modern intelligence chief says about deep reconnaissance:
                  You are naturally alternatively gifted! You see only this very "deep reconnaissance" but you are not able to master it:
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  that all forces The Special Forces of the RF Armed Forces are engaged only in "deep reconnaissance", only on foot and only in groups of no more than 8 people and without air support and without the possibility of evacuation.
                  Ay, superspecial, targets forces of special forces are different, these forces act at different depths, of different numbers and very often with air support, and such as you, a super-expert, dooms a seriously wounded person to death, despite the fact that the opportunity to pick him up is available.



                  Quote: ccsr
                  I wonder how you imagine going 400 km on foot for reconnaissance, "specialist"?
                  You don’t mow under a moron, well, threw it, by parachute or by helicopter, and what, what did you want to say? The fact that apart from deep reconnaissance the special forces are not doing anything else, or what? Is that how you imagine it, "specialist"?

                  Quote: ccsr
                  You are definitely an amateur because because of one wounded special forces soldier, no one will drive the helicopter, if only because not to unmask the entire group with such a flight.
                  Here you would have definitely cleaned up the snout for such words, at least some special forces! The whole group would be FUCKED if they could. It's just a shame!

                  Quote: ccsr
                  As they were a boor, so they remained, And they also had the audacity to write in a personal, asking that I not touch you.
                  You are a wretched creature, no logic, no memory, no mind, and even nonsense:

                  ccsr / Member
                  @ccsr was recently
                  1
                  April 4 2021
                  I propose to stop dogging, especially since there are coincidences in some positions.
                  Vladimir.
                  1. +1
                    28 July 2021 19: 31
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    You do not consider special forces soldiers to be "suicide bombers"

                    They think of themselves as such, I have nothing to do with it, because I know that this is exactly the case.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    but at the same time you deny them emergency medical care, this level of logic is negative.

                    The brigade commander does not have such an opportunity - this special operation must be carried out, and he must manage dozens of thrown out groups, so that losses are inevitable.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    You don’t mow under a moron, well, threw it, by parachute or by helicopter, and what, what did you want to say?

                    They can be thrown by sea from a civilian ship without a uniform - you don't even know that. As for the drop-off, this is already a very difficult operation, because it is not a fact that the helicopter will return at all, and will not be destroyed even before the group has disembarked.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Here you would have definitely cleaned up the snout for such words, at least some special forces!

                    Relax "theorist" - you are just an amateur in these matters, even though you pose as a military expert.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    The whole group would be FUCKED if they could. It's just a shame!

                    Your dreams may not come true, if only because the helicopter has a limited range of use, like the Mi-8, which has a maximum distance of 500-700 km, and the group may be more than 1000 km. What kind of helicopter will fly by unnoticed, smart guy?
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    You are a wretched creature, no logic, no memory, no mind, and even nonsense:

                    That’s why I didn’t answer, because I despise the behind-the-scenes deals that you had the nerve to propose.
                    1. -3
                      28 July 2021 19: 51
                      Quote: ccsr
                      They think of themselves as such, I have nothing to do with it, because I know that this is exactly the case.
                      Oh, well, as it was understandable; "They think because I heard, so I was told, etc." - a fifth-hand connoisseur.


                      Quote: ccsr
                      The brigade commander does not have such an opportunity - this special operation must be carried out, and he must manage dozens of thrown out groups, so that losses are inevitable.
                      What are you all about the antiquity of the nuclear war with NATO from the 80s telling? Already in the Second Chechen war, it was not so, let alone Syria.


                      Quote: ccsr
                      They can be abandoned by sea from a civilian ship - you don't even know that.
                      What squalor, in Chechnya and Dagestan, what did they do from the landing ships? Or in Syria ... There are simply no words.


                      Quote: ccsr
                      Relax "theorist" - you are just an amateur in these matters, even though you pose as a military expert.
                      You are just zero in most elementary questions, and nothing, poses from yourself, why can't I? BUT? And I will once again poke you into the depth of knowledge:
                      Quote: ccsr
                      You are definitely an amateur because because of one wounded special forces soldier, no one will drive the helicopter, if only because not to unmask the whole group with such a flight.


                      Quote: ccsr
                      Your dreams may not come true, if only because the helicopter has a limited range of use, like the Mi-8, which has a maximum distance of 500-700 km, and the group may be more than 1000 km. What kind of helicopter will fly by unnoticed, smart guy?
                      Afghan, Chechnya and Syria say nothing to a genius like you? Or did the special forces not operate there, or did they not take the wounded by helicopters? Are you just an idiot? Here are examples!


                      Quote: ccsr
                      That’s why I didn’t answer, because I despise the behind-the-scenes deals that you had the nerve to propose.
                      Yes, heap a bunch of lies on your "contempt", then why?
                      Quote: ccsr
                      And they also had the audacity to write in PM, asking that I not touch you.
                      Where are the requests not to touch ?! I would still write "pleas", ugh!
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      I propose to stop dogging, especially since there are coincidences in some positions.
                      Vladimir.
                      1. 0
                        28 July 2021 20: 21
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Oh, well, as it was understandable; "They think because I heard, so I was told, etc." - a fifth-hand connoisseur.

                        There are special forces here - you can ask them how things are. And I know this first-hand - you will not understand it.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What are you all about the antiquity of the nuclear war with NATO from the 80s telling?

                        So now no one guarantees that the special forces will not be used even before the start of the war. It was not for nothing that they created the MTR - why did they not guess by chance, if we have the Strategic Missile Forces?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What squalor, in Chechnya and Dagestan, what did they do from the landing ships?

                        In Chechnya and Dagestan, the Russian army did not fight against a foreign state, the military expert is fake, you don't even know that this was our territory.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Or in Syria ...

                        And we did not fight against Syria - do you know anything from military science at all?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Afghan, Chechnya and Syria say nothing to a genius like you?

                        It is you from your ignorance that you think that we were at war there against another state - what poor knowledge you have, and a mess in your head since you have no idea what war is, and what is military assistance to another state.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Or did the special forces not operate there, or did they not take the wounded by helicopters? Are you just an idiot?

                        Only an absolute dilettante does not understand that our special forces acted there with the interaction of our other troops, which is why they could evacuate wounded people there, tk. we controlled the territory, though not all. And how are you going to control it if it is a NATO country, for example, with a developed air defense and intelligence system? However, you will never understand this ...
                      2. -1
                        30 July 2021 16: 03
                        Quote: ccsr
                        In Chechnya and Dagestan, the Russian army did not fight against a foreign state, the military expert is fake, you don't even know that this was our territory.

                        Answer two simple questions, do you think that domestic special forces did not fight in Afghanistan, Dagestan and Chechnya and Syria? And if suddenly, it turns out that they fought, then they did not suffer losses from those who died from wounds?
                      3. +1
                        30 July 2021 17: 57
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Answer two simple questions, do you think that domestic special forces did not fight in Afghanistan, Dagestan and Chechnya and Syria?

                        The fact that they were there does not mean that we fought against these states. Moreover, our medical units were deployed in these territories. And there we had completely different political attitudes, which did not allow the use of special forces, as is customary in a war against any state in the world, including against civilians.
                        The captain of the GRU special forces Eduard Ulman and four of his colleagues, who shot six civilians in Chechnya, are innocent of murder. Such a verdict was passed by the jury at a session of the North Caucasian District Military Court on May 19. This is the second trial and the second acquittal in the case, although the commandos themselves openly admitted in both trials that they had killed the Chechens.

                        ... Don't you understand at all what they are telling you? Do you even know that our constitution had to be altered under Putin, because the Russian army, like the Soviet one, could only be used to repel external aggression, and not for internal use.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And if suddenly, it turns out that they fought, then they did not suffer losses from those who died from wounds?

                        Have you started to wag? I told you that medical hospitals or medical battalions were deployed in these territories, where it was possible to deliver wounded special forces, because we had the opportunity to evacuate. How are you going to deliver them from the territories of other states - at least think about this before talking about nonsense about special forces doctors in reconnaissance groups and the evacuation of the wounded to our territory by helicopters.
                      4. -1
                        30 July 2021 18: 18
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Answer two simple questions, do you think that domestic special forces did not fight in Afghanistan, Dagestan and Chechnya and Syria? And if suddenly, it turns out that they fought, then they did not suffer losses from those who died from wounds?
                        In response to two simple questions, we see such a shameful verbiage
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Answer two simple questions, do you think that domestic special forces did not fight in Afghanistan, Dagestan and Chechnya and Syria?

                        The fact that they were there does not mean that we fought against these states. Moreover, our medical units were deployed in these territories. And there we had completely different political attitudes, which did not allow the use of special forces, as is customary in a war against any state in the world, including against the civilian population.Remind me about Ulman's group?
                        The captain of the GRU special forces Eduard Ulman and four of his colleagues, who shot six civilians in Chechnya, are innocent of murder. Such a verdict was made by the jury at a session of the North Caucasian District Military Court on May 19. This is the second trial and the second acquittal in the case, although the commandos themselves openly admitted in both trials that they had killed the Chechens.

                        . Do you not understand at all what they are telling you? Do you even know that our constitution had to be altered under Putin, because to use the Russian army, like the Soviet one, it was possible only to repel external aggression, and not for internal use.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And if suddenly, it turns out that they fought, then they did not suffer losses from those who died from wounds?

                        Have you started to wag? I told you that medical hospitals or medical battalions were deployed in these territories, where it was possible to deliver wounded special forces, because we had the opportunity to evacuate. How are you going to deliver them from the territories of other states - at least think about this before talking about nonsense about special forces doctors in reconnaissance groups and the evacuation of the wounded to our territory by helicopters.


                        You are really inadequate!
                      5. +2
                        30 July 2021 18: 28
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        You are really inadequate!

                        For that, you are pristine in your conclusions about special forces - you have a complete lack of knowledge for what they are being prepared for, and how they operate in war. Keep writing your fabrications - maybe someone will buy into them ...
                      6. +2
                        1 August 2021 15: 22
                        I watched your discussion, but I agree with CCSR
                        Quote: ccsr
                        you are pristine in your reasoning about spetsnaz ...
                        You about boy with goat have you ever heard? Don't be a burden their philosophy on the way out. I had a chance to work with them and carry them - purposeful fighters.
                        Send a doctor with them - how many doctors in the country are able to withstand their rhythm. My comrade, a master of sports in swimming, ended up in one group "monitor" - the most difficult thing was not to shoot with two hands, and the rest, they trained in two weeks: to learn how to move with these moose lol
                        I wrote above that it makes sense to peep at "Sworn friends", but I'm not sure if this will be acceptable for our philosophy. And we need an aviation component, which does not exist.
                      7. 0
                        31 July 2021 19: 43
                        And how are you going to control it, if it is a NATO country, for example, and even with a developed air defense and reconnaissance system? However, you will never understand this ...

                        An example is working in Turkey against Syrian warlords and logistics (hypothetical example). Or collecting information in the same place
            2. -2
              28 July 2021 18: 42
              Quote: ccsr
              if you do not understand the essence of the article.

              For the most knowledgeable:
              For example, based on the experience of current operations in the Syrian Arab Republic (government and allied forces), in 2015-2020, the time of arrival of the victim at the hospital in the absence of opposition in некоторых случаях reached 3 hours.
              This is what the medical personnel of the Special Forces are for.
              1. +1
                28 July 2021 18: 56
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                For the most knowledgeable:
                For example, in the experience of current operations in the Syrian Arab Republic (government and allied forces), in 2015-2020, the time of arrival of the victim at the hospital in the absence of opposition in some cases reached 3 hours.

                You are definitely illiterate, because our contingent of troops was in Syria, where our hospitals and aviation units were deployed, and even in the absence of COUNTERFEIT the delivery time reached 3 hours. How can a wounded special forces soldier be delivered if the group will operate at distances over 1000 km from our border (in Africa, Asia, for example) and there will be no our hospitals or our aviation?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                This is what the medical personnel of the Special Forces are for.

                An enchanting statement testifying that the author does not know the tasks of the Special Forces brigade at all, and the fact that there is a head of the medical service in the brigade with the rank of lieutenant colonel, who has several officers, warrant officers and personnel with primary medical education under his command. So they are engaged in medical support, but this does not mean that they will be included in the reconnaissance groups, because they are of no use. And they will be used as a last resort when there are no reserves left at all.
                1. -2
                  28 July 2021 19: 29
                  Quote: ccsr
                  You are definitely illiterate, because our contingent of troops was in Syria, where our hospitals and aviation units were deployed, and even in the absence of COUNTERFEIT the delivery time reached 3 hours.

                  I am writing to you that for such cases you need a doctor, and not a delivery, but quote = ccsr] time of arrival of the victim [/ quote, but no, you're all about 1000 km, do you even understand the words?
                  1. 0
                    28 July 2021 19: 44
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    I am writing to you that for such cases a doctor is needed,

                    You seem to be that connoisseur of military affairs, if you do not know that there is a brigade staff and there is no provision for additional doctors for different cases. As for Syria, there was a hospital there:
                    Over the 5 years since the appearance of the Russian group in the SAR at the Khmeimim airbase, almost a full-fledged hospital.

                    What other hospital are you planning to create on the basis of the special forces brigade - are you out of your mind?
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    but no, you're all about 1000 km, do you understand the words at all?

                    This you nifiga does not understand where the special forces can operate, and you do not know anything except Syria, although our air base is located there, and this radically changes the situation.
                    1. -3
                      28 July 2021 19: 54
                      Quote: ccsr
                      What other hospital are you planning to create on the basis of the special forces brigade - are you out of your mind?
                      Are you really a moron? What hospital are you talking about?


                      Quote: ccsr
                      This you nifiga does not understand where the special forces can operate, and you do not know anything except Syria, although our air base is located there, and this radically changes the situation.
                      This is insanity, Syria, Chechnya and Afghanistan, there neither special forces operated, nor did they take the wounded by helicopters, or what? You don't know a damn thing?
                      1. +1
                        28 July 2021 20: 26
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Are you really a moron? What hospital are you talking about?

                        You are an ordinary verbiage, because you began to cite the example of Syria, not knowing how medical support is organized there.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        This is insanity, Syria, Chechnya and Afghanistan, there neither special forces operated, nor did they take the wounded by helicopters, or what? You don't know a damn thing?

                        I know that, but you, apart from cheap slogans, cannot say anything clever - this is the criterion of your knowledge of military affairs.
                2. +1
                  29 July 2021 09: 32
                  As I imagined how much the doctor would have to drag the acb to the equipment, it immediately became bad. And also a rifle, ammunition and PPE.
                  The idea is stupid to madness ...
                  1. +1
                    29 July 2021 12: 09
                    Quote: FireLake
                    The idea is stupid to madness ...

                    This is understood by any person who has an idea of ​​\ uXNUMXb \ uXNUMXbthe spetsnaz groups and their tasks. And if some illiterate came up with a crazy idea to send doctors together with scouts, then this is clearly not from a great mind. So I completely agree with your conclusion about the ideas of this "theoretician".
                    1. 0
                      30 July 2021 20: 32
                      I am always ready to listen to the opinion of experienced practitioners ...
                      1. -1
                        31 July 2021 08: 56
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        I am always ready to listen to the opinion of experienced practitioners ...

                        This person of practice, like me, has about zero, only logical thinking is practically absent, look at his wild bounces aside from the subject of the article.
          3. +1
            29 July 2021 08: 35
            Well, do not understand that
            He won't understand. I have more than once vowed not to touch him, but every time this self-confident wisdom ... In general, the Americans are trying to give the unit a real, well, or almost a real doctor, and even with a military specialty. One can only envy the troops, which have enough funds and intelligence to train, pay, and arrange the life of "combat doctors". In principle, these are not even costs - about five rescued professionals of the level of a captain of the GRU special forces, and the doctor more than justified all the financial costs. But for such a reform it is necessary to think and understand in a fundamentally different way than our current command. In general, in a different way ...
            1. 0
              1 August 2021 11: 04
              Quote: Mikhail3
              One can only envy the troops, which have enough funds and intelligence to prepare, pay, and arrange the life of "combat doctors". In principle, these are not even costs - about five rescued professionals of the level of a captain of the GRU special forces, and the doctor more than justified all the financial costs. But for such a reform it is necessary to think and understand in a fundamentally different way than our current command. In general, in a different way ...

              I am confused by something else.
              1) Nobody directly wrote a SPECIFIC procedure that will be needed on the battlefield and for which you will need a full-fledged resuscitator.

              T .. they write that a lot, but here is 1 .... 1 CARL .. the only procedure ... no one could write.
              All links - apply, tourniquet, give a pill in the mouth, provide first aid.


              So explain, if in 90% of cases it all comes down to these manipulations ... why do you need a resuscitator?
              It's so easy ...

              The man was hit by a bullet in the arm. Pierced an artery.
              1 - convinced that it was possible to provide assistance safely
              2- started talking, assessing the state of speech, consciousness, asked what happened, where it hurts anywhere
              3 - I saw that the blood flows out quickly and pulsating, I concluded that it was the artery that was damaged. I applied a tourniquet. Antibiotics Pain reliever.


              Let all those who bend their fingers here ... take and write a simple situation, WHAT HAPPENED so that a resuscitator with a 7-year education would be needed?
              and all ...
              after they write this, there will be no disputes.
              1. 0
                1 August 2021 11: 13
                "What the hell ?! For what ten thousand ?! You twisted something in the shield for five minutes, and that's it !!" How have I heard enough of this ... Artery? Not a vein? What artery? What bone is damaged, what are the features of this particular place? What is there nearby, what other problems can develop right now if you do not perform strictly defined manipulations?
                That is why professionals first study for seven years, and then all their lives. Everything is simple there. It couldn't be easier, damn it ...
                1. 0
                  1 August 2021 11: 48
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  Artery? Not a vein? What artery?

                  Arterial blood is scarlet and it leaks out pulsating, in view of the presence of a pulse wave.
                  To understand this, enough school knowledge.
                  Venous blood is dark, flows out abundantly, but evenly.
                  Which artery? Well, the femur is obviously in the hand. What other smart question can you think of?
                  what other problems can develop right now if you do not perform strictly defined manipulations?

                  A man with a severed leg?
                  Stop bleeding and prevent shock. (omitting different procedures for assessing safety and head injury)
                  He applied a tourniquet, gave a pill under the tongue.
                  If there is an injection of antibiotics - for the future.
                  There is a saline solution and an opportunity - he made up for the volume of blood loss.

                  This is why professionals first study for seven years.

                  Yes, they do not learn this for 7 years.
                  Stop making up nonsense.
                  It takes 40 hours to learn.

                  It is not necessary for a tourniquet to impose the names of all bones, muscles and blood vessels in Latin.
                  In the same way, I hope it does not bother you to write and have sex because of ignorance of what "corpus cavernosum penis" means.
                  1. -1
                    1 August 2021 13: 11
                    We fire doctors parasites! 40 hours and that's it! And, yes, at the same time we expel (or shoot) all sorts of teachers in military schools who took 40 hours to make of all our cadets urgent surgeons, traumatologists and resuscitators in one bottle.
                    In general, it is clear that it is enough for the wounded to put a tourniquet around his neck and wrap him abundantly with a bandage. Listen ... How about nafig shoot him? Well this is generally what kind of savings, and most importantly - even easier!
                    Your argumentation looks strange and wild ...
          4. +1
            29 July 2021 09: 21
            This is how much the poor fellow the doctor will carry on himself equipment. And also a rifle and ammunition. laughing
            The idea is flawed
        3. 0
          28 July 2021 16: 46
          And the fate of the wounded is decided differently than in the FSIN, because a helicopter will not be sent over the front line or the state border specifically for the evacuation of the wounded. That is why all the GRU special forces know how to act in such cases, but you are an amateur in these matters, so you climb with stupid comments about injuries, not understanding where people are acting.

          You are talking about very deep sabotage or backlighting, but when they got into fire contact in the era of mobile phones and good radio communications, the whole group must be evacuated. Otherwise, they will be soaked, and the preparation of each of them is golden.
          1. +1
            28 July 2021 17: 58
            Quote: Krasnodar
            You are talking about very deep sabotage or backlighting, but when they got into fire contact in the era of mobile phones and good radio communications, the whole group must be evacuated.

            They can operate at distances of up to 4 km from the brigade's location, although in reality, as a rule, they work up to 1,5 km. The evacuation of the entire group may also not be carried out in the case of a dense enemy air defense system at such distances - there are too few chances to return.
            Quote: Krasnodar
            Otherwise, they will kill, and the preparation of each of them is golden.

            This is the other side of the coin. But this is quite acceptable as normal combat losses, so the chief of intelligence will never stop before this.
            1. 0
              28 July 2021 18: 45
              [quote] They can operate at distances of up to 4 thousand km from the brigade's location, although in reality they usually work up to 1,5 thousand km. The evacuation of the entire group may also not be carried out in the case of a dense enemy air defense system at such distances - there is too little chance of returning back. [/ Quote]
              Then there must be a friendly local / spy network. Or the group is planned in advance as a one-off. Or she must get out on her own, dissolving among the locals. Then - yes, the wounded will simply be liquidated, etc.
              [Quote] You write about the actions in Tula of a developed country during or immediately before a very global mess.
              1. +1
                28 July 2021 19: 05
                Quote: Krasnodar
                Then there must be a friendly local / spy network.

                Absolutely not a fact, on the contrary, no one will risk an agent network for the sake of special forces - this is the alphabet of reconnaissance.
                Quote: Krasnodar
                Or the group is planned in advance as a one-off.

                This is laid down at the planning stage, and if the distance and operational situation allows the group to be evacuated, then this will be done. But if this is not possible, then they will go out on their own until a situation arises when they can be evacuated.
                Quote: Krasnodar
                Then - yes, the wounded will simply be liquidated, etc.

                Well, this is not entirely true, but they will simply be left to make the decision for themselves.
                Quote: Krasnodar
                during or just before a very global mess.

                In fact, they were planned for any cases, up to the evacuation of employees of our representative offices, if such a task arose.
                1. 0
                  28 July 2021 21: 36
                  Absolutely not a fact, on the contrary, no one will risk an agent network for the sake of special forces - this is the alphabet of reconnaissance.

                  Agent networks are also different
                  This is laid down at the planning stage, and if the distance and operational situation allows the group to be evacuated, then this will be done. But if this is not possible, then they will go out on their own until a situation arises when they can be evacuated.

                  Logical.
                  Well, this is not entirely true, but they will simply be left to make the decision for themselves.

                  Risky. And if he is adequate after being wounded.
                  In fact, they were planned for any cases, up to the evacuation of employees of our representative offices, if such a task arose

                  They would probably evacuate with the specialists. Think.
      2. 0
        28 July 2021 16: 44
        The nature of wounds from firearms, or traumatic from flying off pieces of metal (bandit sharpenings) is absolutely the same for the special forces of the GRU or the Federal Penitentiary Service. No, absolutely no difference for the wounded in the first half hour).

        Different.
    2. +1
      28 July 2021 16: 42
      Everything is simpler - several soldiers of the unit must undergo a paramedic course, in addition to unloading, carry equipment for first aid before evacuation, including equipment for intubation, pneumothorax, etc.
      In Israel and the United States (I think in the UK too) this has been practiced for a long time. The course is simple - up to six months.
      1. -1
        28 July 2021 17: 07
        Quote: Krasnodar
        In Israel and the United States (I think in the UK too) this has been practiced for a long time. The course is simple - up to six months.
        Up to six months, these are not paramedics at all, let alone resuscitators, six months is the ABC (air breathing circulation) level. Medical instructor maximum.
        1. +1
          28 July 2021 18: 46
          I made a medical instructor / soldier military assistant in 4 months. ATLS, if this tells you something
          1. +1
            28 July 2021 19: 18
            Quote: Krasnodar
            I made a medical instructor / soldier military assistant in 4 months. ATLS, if this tells you something
            Of course, I may not understand what, but are these courses for already existing doctors? Have you taken these courses from scratch or not?

            Advanced Trauma Life Support (ATLS) is an educational training course for specialists (doctors) in helping those injured in trauma.

            Well, 4 months and 6 months is unimportant, at the exit a medical instructor, as I wrote. Not 6 years old.
            1. 0
              28 July 2021 21: 40
              Of course, I may not understand what, but are these courses for already existing doctors? Have you taken these courses from scratch or not?

              Not at all - for ordinary conscripts with brains slightly above average. The doctor was taught to assist with intubations, fix intubations, etc. Well, for everyone, to have an idea of ​​various invasive measures to save lives - very superficial.

              Well, 4 months and 6 months is unimportant, at the exit a medical instructor, as I wrote. Not 6 years old.

              No. The paramedic himself can perform life-saving surgery, he is taught this. The military assistant - no, although he has an idea about their implementation.
              1. +2
                29 July 2021 09: 35
                The tasks are different:
                Paramedic rescue and paramedic stabilize before rescue
                1. +1
                  29 July 2021 09: 39
                  You can say so, although the task is the same - the functions are different
                  1. +2
                    29 July 2021 09: 40
                    Therefore, a doctor is not needed as part of a group. Do not carry the equipment with you.
                    1. +1
                      29 July 2021 12: 49
                      Absolutely.
              2. 0
                12 August 2021 10: 35
                You yourself are answering the question of why you need a doctor. An ordinary person can only be an assistant during the execution of manipulations, and a military paramedic only has an idea.
                1. 0
                  12 August 2021 10: 41
                  Yes, the doctor does not have time to do serious operations there. Only at the point of evacuation, or as in Entebbe - on the plane
                  1. 0
                    12 August 2021 11: 03
                    What time interval do you take as a standard? And how do you decide what a specialist can and cannot do?
                    1. 0
                      12 August 2021 11: 31
                      Time standard
                      The task of the specialists is reconnaissance-marking-sabotage-evacuation. Time is at least before the arrival of the main forces of the enemy, enemy aircraft, and the guidance of the enemy's firepower. Scheme - made and ran away.
                      How I decide - I have experience as a military assistant - deadline / annual reserve
                      1. +1
                        12 August 2021 11: 41
                        The article contains a wider range of tasks, respectively, and the requirements for medicine are different. You wrote about ATLS. This and similar algorithms are applied. Demands for assistance on the battlefield have increased.
                      2. 0
                        12 August 2021 13: 32
                        No, well, if we are talking about deep raids somewhere in African countries, where the most powerful hostile group will not exceed 40 people, of which 30 are teenage children - of course.
                        As for the requirements - they have been approximately the same since the days of Korea - open the way for air, start the heart, prevent hypovolemic shock, prevent infection. Everything else is variations around.
                      3. 0
                        12 August 2021 16: 31
                        Wars have changed since the days of Korea, and so has medicine.
                      4. 0
                        12 August 2021 16: 56
                        I agree - however, the nature of the wounds + is the same, and I still do not see Pont in a special forces doctor. At the fortification point - another matter, it is practiced in the IDF and among the Amers
                      5. 0
                        12 August 2021 16: 59
                        That is, in the United States and Israel, there is a sense (both have a large number of doctors in combat units). And in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, you think this is a show-off.
                      6. 0
                        12 August 2021 17: 04
                        laughing
                        The doctor at the fortification station and the doctor in the special forces (as part of the DRG, for example) are two very different things))
                        The doctor in the fortification station is stationary, does not go out on assignments. A doctor in special forces is a different song, Jews and amers don't have that
                      7. 0
                        12 August 2021 17: 06
                        There is an article by Shulman. He writes that there is a reservist doctor at the medical station, and regular infantry and special forces doctors are in battle formations.
                      8. 0
                        12 August 2021 17: 07
                        Either he writes the wrong thing or you misunderstood him
                      9. 0
                        12 August 2021 17: 11
                        He had several articles, in LJ there was the most complete version. The presence of doctors in battle formations is a well-known fact. Universal military service, the presence of women, it is logical that the doctor does not serve there either
                      10. -1
                        12 August 2021 17: 16
                        What is in battle formations? laughing
                        During the attack, the doctor is not among the advancing infantrymen, he is in Taagada - a field battalion hospital deployed behind the attackers)).
                      11. -1
                        12 August 2021 17: 08
                        It shares your opinion about doctors in the spn, abroad is one thing, we are different. Medical science is now an international science.
                      12. -1
                        12 August 2021 17: 17
                        Yes, there is no place for a doctor in the SPN - only on the vehicle / at the point of evacuation. Nowhere in the world is there a spetsnaz doctor as part of a group. Nowhere!
                      13. -1
                        12 August 2021 17: 36
                        This is your alternative opinion, and all progressive military medicine goes the other way.
                      14. +1
                        12 August 2021 17: 49
                        I apologize wildly - have you been in a regular battle?
                      15. +1
                        12 August 2021 18: 08
                        If we write on this topic, then we believe that we have every moral right to do so. If you disagree with something, you can write an article with an alternative opinion. Or write with what you specifically disagree.
                      16. +1
                        12 August 2021 19: 54
                        Approx.
                        Do you know the training of an active special forces soldier?
                        Can you do the same to a doctor?
                      17. 0
                        12 August 2021 23: 22
                        If other officers are specialists (communications, engineers) undergo this training program, why can't a doctor pass it?
                      18. 0
                        13 August 2021 00: 35
                        They go through a similar program, with rare exceptions they work together with DRG in a completely different format.
                      19. +1
                        12 August 2021 18: 12
                        As I understand it, you are most concerned about the presence / absence of a doctor. Manipulations of a doctor will be performed by any soldier, physo is an unavailable option with a doctor's diploma, and if there is a doctor somewhere outside the hospital, medical center / support point, then this is not an argument for you.
                      20. +1
                        12 August 2021 19: 58
                        Yes, the doctor cannot be in the DRG! Can not!
                        The level of training is not the same. The hypothetical opportunity to save the wounded is leveled by the danger of finding an unprepared person in the group.
                        Understand - special forces are piece goods.
                        Doctors are piece goods.
                        You can create a special program that combines a medical faculty and work in special forces with appropriate training, but even if you find 1000 of these guys in the whole of the Russian Federation, 5 people will endure it. And they are unlikely to remain adequate after intensive study, preparation and assignments.
                      21. +1
                        12 August 2021 23: 18
                        Any specialist of a more or less high class is a piece goods. And what can you say about officers of other military specialties, for example, an engineer, a signalman, an aircraft pilot? Can any soldier be trained in 40 hours too?
                      22. 0
                        13 August 2021 00: 40
                        In order:
                        1) Engineer - sapper. It is taken for very rare and point missions, it does not work with them permanently. Usually, mining - penetration with overcoming obstacles is done by the guys themselves.
                        2) Signal operator - the guys from the unit are trained in this.
                        3) Aircraft controller - in the IDF they have their own special forces, as in the Russian Federation - I don't know.
                        My course for military assistants in Israel lasted three, EMNIP, months)) 12 hours (minimum) daily - minus weekends.
                      23. 0
                        13 August 2021 10: 47
                        Your position is understandable; officers, specialists sometimes either exist or you do not know anything about it.
                        Regarding doctors in Israel, in the USA, in England, they are in the prehospital link and in the subdivisions. This is not an argument for you either.
                        How old is the paramedic training program now?
                        Are there many male paramedics serving in the RF Armed Forces? Perhaps there are far fewer of them than doctors.
                      24. -1
                        13 August 2021 12: 10
                        I don’t know what is in Russia. But about the DRG - this is nonsense. That is, they are dangerous for the group or the group receives very metered tasks. As for specialist officers, their use in Israel is very limited and the task is designed for their transportation and evacuation.
                        In the subdivisions - there is. In battle formations - no. The maximum can participate in the evacuation in the format "life-saving operation, carried out in the airborne department of Merka on the way to the place of evacuation to the hospital." DRG does not expect such luxury conditions.
                        Paramedic - in Israel, a soldier is taken from a unit and sent to the paramedics course.
                      25. 0
                        13 August 2021 13: 02
                        If you do not know how things are in the RF Armed Forces with medical workers, how can you say what is right and what is not? So this is your personal subjective opinion.
                      26. 0
                        13 August 2021 13: 21
                        What does territorial attachment have to do with it? ))
                        The challenge is to conduct life-saving measures after combat for DRG troops.
                        Your suggestion is to assign them a doctor.
                        My proposal, based on Israeli and American practice, is to send active fighters to the courses of military paramedics or paramedics.
                        The first batch of instructors can be trained in Israel, the Jews will not refuse.
                        The whole controversy revolves around your proposal - I believe that a doctor in DRG will do more harm than good.
                      27. 0
                        13 August 2021 13: 45
                        Where did you read the word DRG in the article?
                        The main idea is that the paramedic is not working, the system is working. And in Israel's military medicine system on the battlefield, the main unit is the Physician.
                      28. 0
                        13 August 2021 18: 16
                        On the battlefield, a doctor ...?
                        there was only one case known to me when a doctor worked under fire
                        Gaza 95th, sort of.
                        In 2006, a doctor was in a tank in southern Lebanon, taking out the wounded.
                        Two, to be more precise, cases known to me.
                        I don't know how it works in Russia now, I can tell you everything I remember about Israel
                      29. The comment was deleted.
                      30. +1
                        13 August 2021 23: 51
                        Thank you for the interesting dialogue, if you can describe the IDF Military Medicine, I will be glad to talk with you on this topic.
                      31. 0
                        14 August 2021 07: 14
                        Oh ... I knew pretty well before laughing
                        In short:
                        1) There are doctors - reservists (every Israeli-Jew, Druze, Slav, "Circassian" (Adyg, Kabardian, Chechen) up to 40 years old is obliged to give a month to the army every year, after 40 it is done voluntarily)
                        2) There are doctors who, bypassing the deadline, entered the medical faculty, having learned at the expense of the army, pledging to serve in it for 5 years (in my opinion), as well as doctors who, after the medical faculty, decided to go to government work in order to specialize (study) on monetary areas (oncology, neurology, etc.)
                        System:
                        1) Medical troops
                        Include:
                        a) Army territorial polyclinics in the following areas:
                        I. Therapists
                        II. Dentists
                        III Gynecologists (I could be wrong here)
                        b) army representations at multidisciplinary medical centers (bureaucratic work)
                        c) Army Rehabilitation Hospitals
                        2) A training base for military assistants / paramedics and something similar for doctors (I could be wrong, perhaps specialization is carried out on the spot)
                        3) Polyclinics in units, army ambulances, from civilian minivans to armored (most likely there are such) Humvees (Hummers), polyclinics in training for conscripts / reservists
                        Clinics and doctors in army prisons
                        Doctors: therapists, dentists (in most parts not on a permanent basis)
                        Paramedics and paramedics
                        Military paramedics in combat troops - fighters who have completed a three-month course, they are sent in the infantry, mainly from the middle of the KMB, return to the young, continuing to undergo training (they have time for the teachings of many Kins of the Troops - interaction with tanks and other things). In tank and other "specialized" - in the process of service.
                        4) There are doctors at the bases on the territory of Judea and Samaria - these have to be under fire. In 2006, there were doctors in some fortifications bordering Lebanon.
                        Tasks
                        1) Routine service in the clinic - something serious, they are taken to the hospital (on the way back to the base we buy vodka, yeah), or sent to a civilian specialist
                        2) Trauma as a result of an accident, female students, etc. - packed for sending to the hospital (ATLS, maximum intubation)
                        3) Fighting - similar, but there is tsimes:
                        A field hospital is being deployed at a fortification point or somewhere in a less protected place - a bunch of rapists and all kinds of equipment. The shelling of the fortified post - you stand, waiting for the wounded to be brought in (everyone is at 360-degree positions, they are showing up in response or waiting for an attack). When there are enough military assistants, you run to the position - it is more interesting, you can shoot, etc.
                        If "in the field" - the wounded are dragged to you and they are taken care of during "combing back", that is, there are no frames where the nurse is bandaging you during the battle. Completed the task, you crawl (walk, depending on the situation) back.
                        On the defensive, you drag the wounded out of the area under fire - then you look at the situation. Usually, if unconscious, Airway is in the mouth, the obvious bleeding has stopped, you fight on. Preparing for evacuation when they stop shooting.
                        ----
                        I am waiting for questions, if any hi
                      32. +1
                        14 August 2021 10: 32
                        Thanks for the detailed answer! And the system of training medical personnel as it is built in the troops. How it has changed since the beginning of the 90s!
                      33. 0
                        14 August 2021 15: 08
                        I can tell you about the end of the 90s (how it changed - I don't remember the details, instead of ATLS they introduced something else like)
                        Preparation begins with first aid courses at the KMB. A very easy course. Subsequently, a more advanced one is carried out by military assistants in the unit.
                        Further - suitable candidates are sent to the military assistant course - three months, where the following program is carried out:
                        1) Basic anatomy (musculoskeletal, cardiovascular, nervous digestive systems)
                        2) Traumatology (Basics) - Identify internal abdominal hemorrhage such as tensile pneumothorax and the most common types of accident / battlefield injuries. Up to the point of being hit by a shrapnel of phosphorus ammunition.
                        3) Pharmacology (the most basic - basic drugs for major diseases, side effects, etc.)
                        4) ATLS - in detail, theory and practice, including system installation
                        5) Medical assistant of the clinic and the main diseases - colds, fungus and more serious
                        6) The basics of assisting a doctor - intubation (they taught us on dolls, foley (catheter in pussy, etc.)
                        Well, how to fix all the bullshit with bandages / other
                        7) The dressings are all different - from a tourniquet, a "Russian tourniquet" to a wet hermetic dressing when struck by phosphorus ammunition - there were many
                        ---
                        Everything is in the army style. We learned how to install systems from each other. Installation exam - you run in a chemical suit and a gas mask 400 m, then you install it to a friend laughing
                        ---
                        Paramedics - an additional two months after the Voenfelder course
                        ----
                        Chief paramedic of the battalion field hospital - another three weeks, EMNIP
                        ----
                        Dentist assistants - I don't remember the timing, at the end of the course, a ready profession for a citizen. Like a military assistant, in principle
                      34. +1
                        14 August 2021 19: 10
                        Thanks for the interesting and detailed answer!
          2. 0
            29 July 2021 17: 24
            This is a training course for a doctor of a multidisciplinary hospital - CRH, city and / or regional hospital.
            1. 0
              30 July 2021 11: 47
              In the IDF, trained medical practitioners are stationed as reservists in strongpoints or field hospitals for the battalion's rapid deployment.
              They are also in the special forces - reservists from these same divisions who have become doctors. I know such people, but I do not know about the activities in the reserve - I only know that they do not go on long-distance raids. Maximum - evacuation points. In the special forces unit, the extra people who are at the inadequate level of qualification and physical training is a burden for the group, endangering the task and the fighters themselves.
              1. 0
                30 July 2021 19: 51
                That is, there are doctors in the Tsakhal in the SPN, you agree. The only question is, how far does the doctor of the group go to Israel? Whether the IDF doctor has equipment or not, you are no longer interested.
                1. 0
                  30 July 2021 20: 08
                  They are not among the fighters. They are at the collection / evacuation / field hospitals. Equipment - no visualization and catheterization equipment. Their task is to bring the patient to an Israeli / other hospital.
                  How far is supposedly Sudan / North Syria / Iraq.
                  But the doctor in such operations on the means of evacuation, for example in Uganda, he was on the plane. Of the two seriously wounded, whom he / they were carrying, one died while loading into Hercules, the other remained a paralytic for life. We took them to a medical center in Kenya.
                  1. 0
                    30 July 2021 20: 36
                    There is an article by Shulman, it is indicated in the list and there is a link to its publication in the Military Review. There are records of the IDF doctors themselves. The best way to check is to get their opinion on the matter.
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2021 22: 23
                      I already live in Russia, for a long time I have not communicated with Israeli doctors "for life" laughing
                      And if in the case - all measures are reduced to "not letting you die before the hospital", even more precisely - to deliver to the correct specialized department of the hospital
                      1. 0
                        30 July 2021 22: 34
                        I already live in Russia, for a long time I do not communicate with Israeli doctors "for life" laughing
                        And if in the case - all measures are reduced to "not letting you die before the hospital", even more precisely - to deliver to the correct specialized department of the hospital

                        Or to the point of evacuation in the case of a special forces group.

                        And here tracheal intubation and central vein catheterization may be necessary.
                        Hemorrhagic shock with blood loss per liter in 3.
                        He is in a coma (it is necessary to trumpet), the periphery is asleep (it is necessary to prick the subclavian or jugular).

                        But this can also be taught to a paramedic.
                      2. +1
                        30 July 2021 23: 11
                        Let's count:
                        Term (special forces) four years (Israel), including the year of the contract;
                        The young man, nicknamed through the military registration and enlistment office, is 22 years old by demobilization. For example, he did not rest abroad, as is customary in Israel, but immediately entered the medical faculty - 6 years old and he is 28;
                        Then he takes a course of first aid in such situations and brings himself into physical and professional form - at least 29 years old.
                        Do you think that such a special forces soldier will pass 120 km with a load without serious injuries to the musculoskeletal system in one and a half days, as is required from a specialist up to 25 years? Even the physical training of specialists from the age of 18 to 20-21 is built brick by brick, how will you return the chela to such a shape at the age of 30? I’m not talking about the “jerk” job, where the fizukha guarantees you that you can also think with your head in a critical situation. Yes, you, having dropped out of general training for 6 years, represent a greater danger to your unit than benefit.
                        And everything that you have listed can be done by a young fighter from the unit who has completed a course of paramedics (I'm not sure about catheterization).
                      3. 0
                        30 July 2021 23: 31
                        In theory, maybe, in practice, it may / may not. The first time, rather not.
                        About the age, those who are in the field can calculate the average age of the unit themselves.
                        They wrote abroad, there is an example - 33 years.
                      4. +1
                        31 July 2021 13: 08
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        They wrote abroad, there is an example - 33 years.

                        In fact, in the Soviet Army, the entire mob reserve in the special forces was limited to 30 years, and then they were transferred to other categories of storerooms. So it is more careful about 33 years, although there may be such, but they must constantly serve in the special forces and be sure to confirm all the standards for physical and special training. Your references to foreign experience are often inappropriate - you should always take into account what real tasks the special forces groups will face. As an example - overcoming the border obstacles of NATO countries, when it needs to be done covertly and without visible damage. Well, what physician can do this without special training?
                      5. 0
                        31 July 2021 13: 31
                        We have not been in the USSR for a long time.
                      6. +2
                        31 July 2021 13: 47
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        We have not been in the USSR for a long time.

                        Do you think that the tasks have changed from this? Well, well, it looks like you live in a virtual world ...
                      7. 0
                        31 July 2021 15: 41
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Quote: DR - MED
                        We have not been in the USSR for a long time.

                        Do you think that the tasks have changed from this? Well, well, it looks like you live in a virtual world ...

                        In my opinion, the tasks are even more difficult than steel
                      8. 0
                        31 July 2021 15: 40
                        But over these 33 years, they have, on average, been 13 years in their combat or similar in terms of loads, without a six-year break, which cannot be compensated by either a rocking chair or daily jogging.
                      9. 0
                        31 July 2021 09: 05
                        Let's count:
                        Term (special forces) four years (Israel), including the year of the contract;
                        The young man, nicknamed through the military registration and enlistment office, is 22 years old by demobilization. For example, he did not rest abroad, as is customary in Israel, but immediately entered the medical faculty - 6 years old and he is 28;
                        Then he takes a course of first aid in such situations and brings himself into physical and professional form - at least 29 years old.
                        Do you think that such a special forces soldier will pass 120 km with a load without serious injuries to the musculoskeletal system in one and a half days, as is required from a specialist up to 25 years? Even the physical training of specialists from the age of 18 to 20-21 is built brick by brick, how will you return the chela to such a shape at the age of 30? I’m not talking about the “jerk” job, where the fizukha guarantees you that you can also think with your head in a critical situation. Yes, you, having dropped out of general training for 6 years, represent a greater danger to your unit than benefit.
                        And everything that you have listed can be done by a young fighter from the unit who has completed a course of paramedics (I'm not sure about catheterization).

                        I'll count it differently for you.
                        A good colleague of mine entered VMedA when he was already an MS in sambo. For 6 years he has grown to MS in combat sambo. Then he served in the Marine Corps a little with visits to Chechnya and other hot spots. He defended his Ph.D. in vascular surgery. He continues to skate now, he likes this business.

                        And there are 50 such bunnies in the academy on the course, and at the Airborne Forces faculty they are all like that. laughing
                      10. 0
                        31 July 2021 15: 51
                        laughing
                        I do not really envy this combat sambist, who has multiple micro-injuries of the back and knees, if he suddenly has to move 40 kilometers over rough terrain for a day and a half with a weight of 100 kg, and after some rest in a lying position in an ambush, having worked on the "explosive activity ", at full speed to run kilometers to the point of evacuation. Yes
                        Even if the special forces are engaged in "highlighting / adjusting", such a person is more of a burden than a benefit, not to mention sabotage.
                        By the way, in real combat, even in buildings, the chance that you need hand-to-hand combat skills is 1 in a hundred. wink If not less. In spetsnaz, a good athlete is preferable, and a young one. ))
                      11. 0
                        31 July 2021 16: 08
                        I do not envy this combat sambist who has multiple microtraumas of his back and knees if he suddenly has to move 40 kilometers over rough terrain for a day and a half with a weight of 100 kg. activity ", at full speed to run kilometers to the point of evacuation. yes
                        Even if the special forces are engaged in "highlighting / adjusting", such a person is more of a burden than a benefit, not to mention sabotage.
                        By the way, in real combat, even in buildings, the chance that you need hand-to-hand combat skills is 1 in a hundred. wink If not less. In spetsnaz, a good athlete is preferable. ))

                        So he does this, as he still serves. And about athletics, too, in the know, all normal people from the town are on the bus, and he is on a bicycle bike. wink
                        But it's not about him.

                        There is no need to imagine a military doctor as such a fine-looking professor Preobrazhensky.
                        VMedA is the same military establishment as RVVDKU. Yes, they run less there, but it is not a problem to take away three dozen rexes at the end.
                      12. 0
                        31 July 2021 16: 23
                        It means that it performs tasks less serious than those facing the specialists.
                        I wrote to you in the first post - a spetsnaz native who lost 6 years to study, even running, sparring, etc., is not ready for long-distance reconnaissance / sabotage raids.
                      13. +1
                        31 July 2021 16: 37
                        It means that it performs tasks less serious than those facing the specialists.

                        I probably did not explain clearly - he serves in the special forces. Recently arrived from the South. love

                        I wrote to you in the first post - a spetsnaz native who lost 6 years to study, even running, sparring, etc., is not ready for long-distance reconnaissance / sabotage raids.

                        You misunderstand the procedure for selecting special forces officers.
                        FIRST you graduate from a military school, and THEN you are selected.
                        At the same time, the initial physical training is not a priority. From my course, 15 out of 120 people went to different special forces. Not a single Rambo among them.

                        And then - secret physical training. But I will reveal her secret to you.
                        From the moment you hit and until demobilization, regardless of rank and position, at least 3 times a week, your working day will begin not in the office, but in the gym.
                        From 8.00 to 11.00. laughing
                      14. 0
                        31 July 2021 19: 35
                        1) We are talking about anti-terrorist operations in the Caucasus, the territory of the Russian Federation - no one walks more than 20 km on foot, they evacuate almost immediately Yes
                        2) So that's it, that deep reconnaissance / sabotage special forces require special training. And so - now even the National Guard has its own musicians, but this does not mean that they carry out arrests, suppress riots, etc. Although the financial standards are adapted, of course, they pass)).
                        3) lol Yes, in the special forces in question, your "secret" training is taken to marshbrosseai with heavy weight and a stretcher in the last section (for four), at permanent shooting ranges - before and after physical exercise, as well as constant exercises in full ammunition in a built-up and open terrain. The rocking chair there is optional laughing
                      15. +1
                        30 July 2021 23: 23
                        Yes, you can teach a bear, in theory.
                        The term of training for a paramedic with similar skills is 4+ years.
                      16. +1
                        31 July 2021 15: 56
                        I don't know about catheterization, but intubation + ATLS + mini surgeries with tension pneumothorax and opening of the airways - six months of the army course, of which four months of military training, two months - the basics of surgery.
                      17. +1
                        31 July 2021 02: 06
                        Without an ultrasound, you cannot stick the plug. You can stick it in the wrong place. They always check afterwards. Repeatedly there were cases of installation in the wrong place ... and this is in a hospital environment
                      18. 0
                        31 July 2021 08: 56
                        Without an ultrasound, you cannot stick the plug. You can stick it in the wrong place. They always check afterwards. Repeatedly there were cases of installation in the wrong place ... and this is in a hospital environment

                        laughing
                        But what about the ultrasound stuck for decades? These are the machinations of manufacturers. Even in the order for equipping the intensive care units, they drove a mandatory ultrasound machine.

                        There were and are cases (despite the ultrasound), yes. Statistics, you know.
                        The young, lean special forces will have no problems. soldier
                      19. 0
                        31 July 2021 09: 00
                        Quote: FireLake
                        Without an ultrasound, you cannot stick the plug. You can stick it in the wrong place. They always check afterwards. Repeatedly there were cases of installation in the wrong place ... and this is in a hospital environment

                        Go up the branch and see a modern ultrasound machine, and you may stop remembering the terrible dimensions and weight of modern equipment.
                      20. 0
                        31 July 2021 15: 57
                        Quote: FireLake
                        Without an ultrasound, you cannot stick the plug. You can stick it in the wrong place. They always check afterwards. Repeatedly there were cases of installation in the wrong place ... and this is in a hospital environment

                        Visual control is necessary, in my opinion, even ultrasound is not enough, X-ray is preferable
  4. +4
    28 July 2021 11: 24
    The article is interesting, no dispute. But in the conditions of Russia, its conclusions are practically not realizable:
    1.the total shortage of doctors in civilian life, even in peaceful conditions, is practically not replenished
    2.the quality of training of doctors is such that when they leave the university they are not ready to provide medical care on their own
    3.I do not undertake to judge all military doctors, but military doctors from the nearest hospitals come to us as volunteers on duty due to lack of practice, and civilian doctors are on duty in military hospitals - the picture is sad
    4. Large elite military hospitals and civilian clinics are out of the scope of the discussion due to their elitism and scarcity, which will not allow solving the assigned tasks. The proverb "One is not a warrior in the field" is important in medicine, since treatment is a collective process. You can make an excellent and timely operation, but lose the patient in the postoperative period due to the lack / poor qualifications of doctors of border specialties.
    5. Judging by our own observations, even in a megalopolis, the paramedic of the joint venture is not able to provide vital manipulations such as intubation of the upper respiratory tract and the imposition of a hemostatic tourniquet. What can we say then, provided that there are no skills for their implementation in the conditions of a small or episodic appearance of such a category of patients?
    6. Nobody canceled the evacuation and staging of medical care. Time is more important than ever in such situations.
    1. +5
      28 July 2021 11: 48
      The article is interesting, no dispute. But in the conditions of Russia, its conclusions are practically not realizable:

      + 100500

      And there is no need for a doctor in the group. An intelligent paramedic will figure it out.

      Ultrasound imaging, ventilation modes, and other nishtyaks amused.
      This is how you see a resuscitator running through the mountains with Draeger and an ultrasound machine on his shoulders. This is in addition to weapons and the rest.
      1. +1
        28 July 2021 14: 41
        Quote: Arzt
        An intelligent paramedic will figure it out.

        Tracheal tears during an attempt at intubation by paramedics have seen more than once
        Quote: Arzt
        This is how you see a resuscitator running through the mountains

        It’s easier, who will put the air duct?
      2. -1
        28 July 2021 16: 53
        Quote: Arzt

        + 100500

        And there is no need for a doctor in the group. An intelligent paramedic will figure it out.

        Ultrasound imaging, ventilation modes, and other nishtyaks amused.
        This is how you see a resuscitator running through the mountains with Draeger and an ultrasound machine on his shoulders. This is in addition to weapons and the rest.

        Come on - you can take a CT scanner with you. For 8 fighters. And PET CT is better - suddenly someone is sick with cancer. fellow And the metal containers are different - FdG18, PSMA. And include a radiologist in the group. And the DaVinci Robot. Suddenly, the prostatectomy will have to be done - nerve-sparing.
    2. 0
      29 July 2021 15: 35
      The article is multifaceted and covers many topics.
      It's good that such articles at least appear.
      I will not touch upon the issues of providing assistance for injuries and injuries, as well as the issues of the participation of doctors in special operations. Not my level question.
      But ordinary motorized riflemen or artillerymen should get at least part of the medical support from the special forces. They, too, should have access to drugs for falling asleep while driving a car or for motion sickness on military equipment. You can not be limited to some tablets for water disinfection.
      Perhaps I am bursting with my advice at an open door, since in the modern Russian army all this is probably there, or maybe not.
      But in the 80s of the last century there was almost nothing.
      There was not even elementary vitamin C, at least in the form of ascorbins, so that by the end of the service two years later, teeth would not fall out.
      There were no medications to treat the fungus on the feet. I admit that effective drugs at that time were not freely available, they appeared literally a couple of years later.
      There was no elementary Metronidazole, Trichopolum from infectious gastric disorders.
      There was not even dust soap for lice. Yes, environmentalists banned dust (DDT) in the late 70s, but for the army it should be, you can't force the military to feed the lice with themselves.
      And heavy physical exertion had and must be overcome not only by special forces, drugs from sports already known in the 70s of the last century should come to the rescue at least now.
      1. -1
        30 July 2021 20: 00
        Many new techniques and equipment are first tested in the Specialized Forces and then go to the masses.
        1. -1
          30 July 2021 20: 24
          The fact of the matter is that there is a feeling that this has not come to the masses, although we would very much like it.
        2. 0
          30 July 2021 20: 50
          Quote: DR - MED
          Many new techniques and equipment are first tested in the Specialized Forces and then go to the masses.

          You generally understand that each power structure has its own special forces, and they all have different tasks, conditions and regions of action. When you realize this, then maybe you will come to the obvious conclusion - their specialization can only take place in real service, when he begins to understand what he will have to face and what he should be able to do. And general universal training of special forces doctors cannot exist in principle - if only because doctors from the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Federal Penitentiary Service can always be helped by inpatient medical institutions, and in other structures this is not always possible.
          1. 0
            30 July 2021 22: 59
            Diseases and injuries develop according to the same laws and principles, regardless of the ministry and department.
  5. +2
    28 July 2021 11: 53
    It is very interesting, but this is a project. Here is how it will be implemented in practice. Again, the means.
  6. +3
    28 July 2021 11: 55
    The article is pure theory. It's like, in every RDG that went on a combat mission, honey. to appoint an employee? And if there can be more than two dozen of these groups in the brigade? First of all, under the special forces units are meant units of the GRU. For others, such a system can and will work.
    1. +2
      28 July 2021 12: 17
      Quote: AlexGa
      And if there can be more than two dozen of these groups in the brigade?

      In Soviet times, there could be forty of them only of the first stage, but here some theorists do not even know this, but are trying to extend their "experience" to what they have no idea about.
      Quote: AlexGa
      First of all, under the special forces units are meant units of the GRU.

      For the GRU, this system does not fit at all, but the authors simply do not understand this. The task of the doctors of such teams is to teach the personnel as best as possible to provide medical care to themselves, i.e. this is a much more serious medical training course for fighters than in combined arms units.
      1. +4
        28 July 2021 12: 36
        Quote: ccsr
        The task of the doctors of such teams is to teach the personnel as best as possible to provide medical care to themselves, i.e. this is a much more serious medical training course for fighters than in combined arms units.

        EMNIMS, a few years ago Mokrushin considered the question of how things stand with the preparation of l / s in terms of the basics of "self-help". It turned out that in no way - the l / s very vaguely knows what to do, and systemic training is simply not conducted. Often, fighters do not know what, when and how to use what is in the first-aid kit.
        1. 0
          30 July 2021 20: 37
          The vitality of knowledge and skills has not been canceled.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. +1
            31 July 2021 12: 51
            Quote: DR - MED
            The vitality of knowledge and skills has not been canceled.

            And as you can see the maintenance of the skills and knowledge of prof. doctor?
            In the conditions of business trips.
            1. 0
              31 July 2021 13: 53
              The article is not tied to a specific department.
              We will probably write about the maintenance of skills separately.
      2. +3
        28 July 2021 12: 44
        And if there can be more than two dozen of these groups in the brigade?

        In Soviet times, there could be forty of them only of the first stage, but here some theorists do not even know this, but are trying to extend their "experience" to what they have no idea about.
        Quote: AlexGa
        First of all, under the special forces units are meant units of the GRU.

        For the GRU, this system does not fit at all, but the authors simply do not understand this. The task of the doctors of such teams is to teach the personnel as best as possible to provide medical care to themselves, i.e. this is a much more serious medical training course for fighters than in combined arms units.

        Groups, as you said yourself, are different. If an officer's, then it is clear there will be a doctor, not a medical instructor.
        In principle, there is also a point of application for the work of a resuscitator.

        If we simulate the situation:
        1. The group, after completing the task, goes to the evacuation point. We have one seriously wounded.
        2. He can move himself (and at the pace of the group) - he walks by himself.
        3. Cannot move - there is a dilemma.
        4. If there is an opportunity to drag - drag.
        5. If not, leave to cover.

        Here in point 4 there may be a situation when a resuscitator is needed.
        With his two main skills:
        1. Intubation of the trachea and mechanical ventilation with the AMBU bag.
        2. Catheterization of central veins and infusion in case of collapsed peripheral veins (hemorrhagic shock).

        The rest is from the evil one. winked
        1. +2
          28 July 2021 12: 59
          Quote: Arzt

          Groups, as you said yourself, are different. If an officer's, then it is clear there will be a doctor, not a medical instructor.

          Where can you find so many officers in the brigade? Understand correctly, the medical officer in the group is only a burden, tk. he does not have the same physical stamina as regular scouts. And who will lead the other groups if you form officer groups? By the way, military doctors in the special forces brigade had the opportunity to refuse compulsory training landing - they did not get benefits then.
          Quote: Arzt
          1. The group, after completing the task, goes to the evacuation point. We have one seriously wounded.
          2. He can move himself (and at the pace of the group) - he walks by himself.
          3. Cannot move - there is a dilemma.

          There is no dilemma - you need to complete the task, and therefore they will leave the grenade and the weapon, and then how lucky.
          Quote: Arzt
          Here in point 4 there may be a situation when a resuscitator is needed.

          To be honest, I don’t remember whether there was such a one in the special forces brigade in Neutimen, but there was an army hospital in Lichen, so there were such doctors there, but the victim had to be taken to them during studies or accidents.
          1. +4
            28 July 2021 13: 31
            Where can you find so many officers in the brigade?

            I agree with almost everything. So it was and is (so far).
            As I understand it, this article is for discussion for the future.
            In my opinion, there is no point in ordinary brigades. Even put the professor there, he is limited in the means of rendering assistance.
        2. 0
          29 July 2021 09: 39
          I would also include here the ability to perform a pleural puncture (hemo / pneumothorax), but even here a doctor is not needed
      3. 0
        12 August 2021 10: 29
        Regarding training, the authors did not say that it is not necessary to train personnel. In the article, this is one of the tasks of the doctor.
        How do you imagine the current level of medical care in the course of modern war?
        1. -2
          12 August 2021 13: 18
          Quote: DR - MED
          How do you imagine the current level of medical care in the course of modern war?

          You will first decide what it will be, and whether military doctors will be in demand in it, as it was in the Great Patriotic War in field hospitals and medical battalions, for example.
          And then suddenly it will turn out that the best use of doctors will be in the field of rendering assistance to the civilian population, where a huge number of wounded will be in even worse conditions than military units withdrawn from their permanent deployment points.
          1. 0
            12 August 2021 16: 32
            I think the face of modern conflict is a topic for a separate article.
            1. +1
              12 August 2021 19: 50
              Quote: DR - MED
              I think the face of modern conflict is a topic for a separate article.

              Why then contact me with a question:
              Quote: DR - MED
              How do you imagine the modern level of medical care in the course of modern warfare?

              And it may turn out that all your conclusions will not be worth a damn if initially you incorrectly define the role of doctors in it.
    2. -1
      29 July 2021 15: 39
      Why is this a theory? At least Meldoniy from tennis player Maria Sharapova can be given to those artillerymen who carry mortars to the mountains, to facilitate the tolerance of physical exertion.
      1. 0
        30 July 2021 19: 54
        With meldonium, everything has been in order for a long time.
        1. -1
          30 July 2021 19: 55
          What exactly is okay with him?
      2. 0
        30 July 2021 21: 26
        Why is this a theory? At least Meldoniy from tennis player Maria Sharapova can be given to those artillerymen who carry mortars to the mountains, to facilitate the tolerance of physical exertion.

        Artam will not be given, it will be fat. Yes, and there is not much sense from him. And the experts have a different matter, even amphetamine.
        Although Kuzhugetich, with his love of medicine, can change something.
        1. -1
          30 July 2021 21: 32
          Yes, at least overeat, but motorized riflemen and artillery should have harmless drugs from sports. Otherwise, the specialists have a big risk at the right time without support to be, behind the weakness of the helpers. The main assistant of a motorized rifleman is not a special forces or paratrooper, but a mortar gunner.
          1. +1
            30 July 2021 21: 46
            Yes, at least overeat, but motorized riflemen and artillery should have harmless drugs from sports. Otherwise, the specialists have a big risk at the right time without support to be, behind the weakness of the helpers.

            Yes, I agree with you. The role of specialists in the war is generally greatly exaggerated.
            1. -1
              30 July 2021 21: 59
              And forget about them, give pills to the troops from fatigue, and to recuperate.
              I heard that the scouts, after night outings, suffered in the morning from cramps in the legs, so there are drugs just for this, but the troops do not.
              1. 0
                30 July 2021 22: 16
                And forget about them, give pills to the troops from fatigue, and to recuperate.

                Duck has been around for a long time. Americans and Germans in WWII hawala with might and main. Phenamine is called.

                Which is actually an amphetamine. laughing
                1. -1
                  30 July 2021 22: 24
                  They had it. We had nothing. And as I got through, there is still nothing.
                  Moreover, I'm not talking about amphitamines, I'm talking about harmless drugs from sports.
                  1. 0
                    31 July 2021 15: 27
                    They had it. We had nothing. And as I got through, there is still nothing.
                    Moreover, I'm not talking about amphitamines, I'm talking about harmless drugs from sports.

                    The harmless are useless. We need a full-fledged stimulant, it's for an emergency. Promedol is also not harmless, but without it anywhere.
                    1. -1
                      31 July 2021 20: 33
                      This is not so, the same Meldonium will save you from convulsions in the morning and can increase endurance by 1,5-2 times, for suffocation.
                    2. 0
                      1 August 2021 09: 51
                      Quote: Arzt
                      We need a full-fledged stimulant, it's for an emergency.

                      In the mid-eighties, a portable device for electrical stimulation of certain points on the body was developed for special forces, which relieved cramps and helped relieve muscle fatigue after a long march. True, what happened to this device, I do not know, I saw it in the form of a prototype, which was going to be tested in practice. So work in this direction has been going on for a long time.
                      1. -1
                        1 August 2021 19: 49
                        Not about that at all. If the special forces had something, then the motorized riflemen had nothing at all, and as I understand it, there is nothing even now.
                      2. 0
                        1 August 2021 20: 43
                        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                        If the special forces had something, then the motorized riflemen had nothing at all, and as I understand it, there is nothing even now.

                        And what are motorized riflemen secretly doing daily marches of 40-60 km, how do special forces do it?
                        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                        Not about that at all.

                        Perhaps not about that, but I discussed this with a professional physician, who apparently knows better than both of us how things are.
                      3. -1
                        1 August 2021 21: 09
                        Motorized riflemen are the most massive troops, and sometimes they have to carry and walk no less than special forces. But for some reason there is nothing for them.
                  2. +2
                    2 August 2021 14: 28
                    Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                    I'm not talking about amphetamines, I'm talking about harmless drugs from sports.

                    Going back to what they were talking about
                    Quote: Olimpic2021
                    Biles has now also pulled out of the individual all-around, vault, bars and floor finals due to a mental block on parts of her technique and the need to preserve her mental health.
                    to the question of safe sports drugs
              2. +2
                1 August 2021 17: 35
                Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                there are drugs just for this, but the troops do not.

                There is another theory: the fighter should be guided only by natural reflexes. the Americans "fed" their chemists at the beginning of the Afghan campaign: it surfaced at the trial - the Hornet pilot bombed the wedding with the words - they shot at me, they shot at me. His lawyer was surprised: a character in good physical and mental condition kept repeating the same thing. The lawyer promoted this story ..
                1. -1
                  1 August 2021 21: 15
                  Where did you read that I urge you to stuff with amphitamines or something similar? There is a large selection of drugs from the sport, but this experience is ignored for the mass army.
                  1. +2
                    1 August 2021 21: 29
                    I didn't seem to say that you are calling someone.
                    Whatever one may say, but any chemistry leaves a negative mark and replaces natural reflexes, which is inadmissible.
                    1. -1
                      2 August 2021 15: 16
                      And it's not about reflexes at all. During physical exertion, both salts and other organically inherent substances leave the body, with extreme loads that a person is not designed for under normal conditions. We need at least drugs to restore working capacity, vitamins, substitutes for substances lost during unnatural loads.
  7. +2
    31 July 2021 12: 49
    I liked the article, but in my opinion the author is speculating on a topic that has already been studied far and wide in professional circles.

    For example
    What is your personal choice ???
    1 you will be stabilized by a serviceman who studied for half a year on simulators and trained on biological objects and now he will try it for the first time or not.
    2 you will be stabilized by a doctor who, during training, was engaged in the stabilization that is so necessary at the moment.

    My personal choice is that when in crowded places, when a person falls with arrhythmia, a professional cardiologist-resuscitator ran up to him within seconds.

    But there is one problem - IMPOSSIBLE stock up on so many HIGHLY QUALIFIED doctors.

    For this reason, in all developed countries, the strategy was chosen as follows - the placement of AUTOMATIC defbrillators in crowded places. Moreover, those that can be used by people without preparation, following the simple instructions of the system.

    A wide distribution of mid-level specialists who can arrive on site within 10 minutes.
    And then, within 2 hours, deliver a person alive to an equipped intensive care unit with highly qualified doctors.


    Therefore, the question has no PRACTICAL sense. It is clear that I would prefer that the most qualified doctor as possible dealt with me, but this does not change the reality in any way - it is impossible to ensure the availability of such doctors everywhere, within a 5-minute availability.


    A specialist's training period of 7 years made it possible to quickly prepare a doctor for the unit

    Here I generally laughed out loud.
    The author, are you generally aware of the specifics of the work of operatives?
    Their selection? Preparations?
    Physically?

    Those. at the age of 18, a guy should already be functionally ready to digest the loads that the training program for a MTR fighter implies, he should already be a CCM in at least some kind of sport.
    80% of guys can already be deleted from the list of prospective candidates.
    Then he must be psychologically fit for such a service.
    He must WANT that kind of life for himself.

    Then he must gain combat experience, which implies COMMANDING.
    Those. he will have to travel to hot spots where the elders will pass on practical work experience.
    And to everything. to this you still want a person 7 years to unlearn the prof. doctor.

    Moreover, from the unobvious - in order for a person to study well, he must have a genuine INTEREST in the profession that he is mastering.

    And if you take a guy who likes to operate, then the question arises, why should he combine this with service in the MTR? I like it - well, operate, be a doctor.
    (it is impossible not to realize the fact that if a person likes medicine, being an operative he will never be able to realize himself in it the same way as if he made it the main thing in his life).

    By the way, I advise you to read the autobiographies of Uglov, Bakeria and other famous Russian surgeons.


    Another mistake is to think that after 7 years of study a person will become a professional.
    Alas, after 7 years of training, a person becomes a young green doctor.
    All skills you need
    1) develop
    2) maintain

    And that takes practice.

    Again, read what the same Bakeria wrote about this.
    A surgeon who does not practice is no longer a surgeon.
    Everyday practice.

    Every evening for 5 years after the institute, he took a light bulb, pulled a leaky sock on her and darned it with surgical instruments.

    As a result, at the exit, we dispatch a person who must both run and shoot and deal with aviation in tactics, UAVs to interact and also regularly maintain the skills of a surgeon.
    Some kind of super-hero will crawl.
    The fantasy is complete.
    1. 0
      12 August 2021 10: 19
      The authors have information about the level of physical fitness. Are you aware that this data is in the public domain? These standards are not available to Olympic champions.
      Regarding surgery, I don't even know where you read about it and, in general, what has Bakeria to do with it.
      The article contains a list of all the basic skills of the activities. You don't need to be a surgeon to perform them.
    2. 0
      14 August 2021 00: 19
      Thank you for your criticism, I read your comments again. You raised an interesting topic, the motivation to engage in medical work, and where is the service with the Specialist. Within the framework of the article, this topic is partially described, perhaps more emphasis should be placed on it.

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