Military Review

Rake from "Armata" by Checkmate?

391

So, the Americans were right: it's a layout after all. Which, as we are promised, should fly in 2023. But we will look and talk about it in 2023. It is clear for now: a mock-up that will not fly in the near future, because this is clearly associated with certain problems.


However, first things first.

What can you say about the prototype in the light of the joyful statements of experts and analysts?

The first is a single engine aircraft. This in itself is good, since it indicates that developments are underway in the bowels of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, calculations are underway, and new equipment is being created. This is bravo and applause to the employees of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, personally I think that this is the most joyful information from everything that was dumped into the news media.

The rest is already less happy, because all these "as believed", "possibly", "maybe", "probably" and so on in an indefinite declension - all this should be considered after the model / prototype finally turns into an airplane and comes off from the earth. Until this moment, I'm sorry - bravura fortune telling on the coffee grounds.

I agree that today we have no equal in this. Mr. Rogozin is about to fly to Saturn to the accompaniment of his songs in a reusable spacecraft assembled in lunar orbit. In words. But in fact, so far, apart from working as minibusters on the Earth-ISS line, he cannot offer anything else.

But back to the topic, that is, to the prototype, which has so far been called Checkmate. Later, of course, we will see who is in check and who is checkmated, everything has its time.

So what do we have from the promises and announcements?

1. The aircraft will belong to the fifth generation.

This is quite normal, who, excuse me, needs a fourth today, the other one has it. And the world market for fourth-generation military aircraft is, to put it mildly, overridden. And there, including the Russian planes of the same Sukhoi Design Bureau, feel quite confident.

2. The machine can become the world leader in price / performance ratio due to its modular design.

It's a question of time. This is worth talking about in 2025, when the plane is really ready to enter the market.

3. Checkmate is expected to be in demand from overseas buyers. In the next 15 years, it is planned to release 300 fighters. The cost of the novelty will be $ 25-30 million.

Plans are good when you have something to plan. That is, see paragraph 2. The price of military equipment is lower than that of American and European manufacturers with a minimum quality of "not worse" - this is a "trick" of Russian manufacturers. That is why our equipment has always been used and will be in demand among those countries who want good equipment, but are tense with money.

And the price of $ 30 million is quite hefty.

4. Russian analysts expect that this machine will be able to compete with the F-35.

Serious claim to win. The current cost of the F-35 is about $ 80 million. The price of $ 30 million is yes, it can move the 35th aside. Unless we forget that the F-35 has short or vertical takeoff and landing capabilities.

In addition, speaking about the market, do not forget that they will not completely coincide with airplanes. Those who cannot afford Checkmate will buy the F-35. All sorts of Italy, Japan, Norway and so on. Those who will not be allowed to buy a Russian plane. And there are many of them.

As for the rest ... Well, let's just say: given the speed at which the US produces F-35s (to date, more than 665 units have been manufactured, at the time of the start of Checkmate sales some potential buyers can really remain. There are countries focused on Russian technology , which is given on credit, and the loan can be forgiven later.

So there is no doubt that the market for Checkmate, if it really costs $ 30 million, is quite possible.

Rake from "Armata" by Checkmate?

“The idea was born from the economy. In our opinion, there are a lot of single-engine aircraft on the market now ... But there is no fifth-generation single-engine aircraft at an acceptable, economically reasonable price that would be within the power of most customers of military multifunctional aircraft, "said Yuri, General Director of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC). Slussar.

Logical and reasonable. If there is a demand, it must be satisfied. Indeed, single-engine aircraft, albeit less reliable and tenacious, but more economical and cheaper (the dream of those with small budgets) are now represented by very old models. Let, of course, undergoing modernization, but still: the F-16, which began in 1975, and the Saab JAS 39 "Gripen", which was born in 1997.

A new fighter of the fifth generation with all that it implies, and for the price of the F-16D Block 52 is a good offer. Especially for those who have a choice in such a situation which plane to take - Russian or American.

If not one small "but" that can kill the idea in the bud.

And to kill her, leaving the plane without buyers, is very simple: you cannot buy it yourself. As it was with the most unique and "not having" a tank "Armata" and the same Su-57 aircraft.

Actually, this is the main inconvenient question. Why did it happen?

Let's remember how it was.

The hype that was organized around "Armata" could be compared, perhaps, with the amendments to the Constitution. Everything that could tell what a unique, powerful, stunning and invulnerable tank it was. Even irons and coffee makers.

In the "ARMY-2016" insert, the tank was shown only to foreign delegations in secrecy. They did not admit their own to the shows. As far as I understand, we were looking forward to the orders.


And there was a complete zilch. There were no orders. Foreign potential buyers looked, thought, asked questions. And they watched, first of all, how many T-14s the Russian army would order.

And then strange movements began. We ordered ... 20 tanks. This is not a quantity, you must agree. This is for the parade and nothing more. Potential customers did not like this.

And when, in February 2020, the yearbook The Military Balance wrote that the planned deliveries of a significant amount of T-14 had not begun and by the end of 2019 not a single T-14 had entered service, the issue was in fact removed from the agenda. Especially. That total modernization of the T-72B3 and T-80BVM began in Russia.

A strange position from the point of view of foreigners: we have the best tank, "unparalleled in the world", buy it! And we are after you, we have these tanks ...

In general, instead of "having no analogues in the world", the T-14 "Armata" became "without orders in the world."

Number two. Su-57.


Roughly the same: they were offered to everyone, no one reacted. Here, of course, the Indians, who came out of the joint project of the fifth generation fighter FGFA, were very bad at it, and even with criticism.

But foreign observers and experts in general highly appreciated the aircraft, noting its positive aspects, especially the electronic stuffing and weapons. But the absence of "that very" engine actually put an end to the plane. To use the plane, which is proposed as the fifth generation with an engine from the previous one, is somehow not very good.

The cost is 35 million dollars - but this is also the Su-35, which is known, tested and verified. And the Su-30MKI, which is in demand and respected.

And most importantly - where is the Su-57 in the Russian Air Force?

But no. And the excuses sounded approximately in the style of "Armata". We wrote about this, which looked strange. The Su-57 is offered for export, but we will not buy ourselves, because we have the Su-35, which is no worse.

Sorry, so the market is not conquered. So the market is "poured".

How do the Americans work in this case? It's simple. We look at the statistics for the F-35.
United States Air Force: 231 aircraft.
Marine Corps: 106 aircraft.
US Navy: 30 aircraft.


Total: US military structures have ordered and received at the moment 367 aircraft. And they are actively trying to exploit them. Is this a normal advertisement or not? I think quite.

How many F-35s have the United States sold to other countries? 166 for today, and about 180 more have been ordered.

Good or bad Lightning 2 is not so important. It is important that the process is well established. With the ancient, but modernized F-16, everything is about the same. They exploit it themselves and sell it to everyone who has no money for the 35th. It's simple. But the main thing is that they exploit themselves.

In the case of Checkmate, everything can turn out in exactly the same way: an aircraft that is not operated by the manufacturing country may again not interest anyone. It generally looks dubious. “Buy the newest and awesome plane from us! True, we do not really need it ourselves, it is expensive and all that, and most importantly, we have it just as well ”- well, this is a very dubious marketing.

And the main stumbling block for this Checkmate is the engine. The aircraft, which is positioned as the fifth generation, with the fourth engine is also so-so. Yes, AL-41F1 is a very good engine. But in order to really move the F-35 with a marketing program like that of the United States, something more interesting for the buyer is needed.

Of course, while the exhibition is underway, hundreds of expert opinions will be expressed, we will follow them, especially the opinion of the Americans. But all the opinions that will be expressed are just words. Words that will eventually require confirmation.

And all this can only be confirmed by practice. That is, by flights.

“It combines innovative solutions and technologies, including artificial intelligence support for the pilot, as well as proven solutions that have already been proven in practice. The fighter has low visibility and high flight performance ”.

This is taken from the Rostec website. I wonder where the Rostekhov specialists got the information about LTH? Estimated? Okay, but again, calculations - calculations, but until it flies - these are nothing more than words.

We know how ... In general, let's see how events will unfold. And when there will be a real engine for this plane. It is clear that the same AL-41F1 will work "temporarily", without options.

But if in our structures they really want to sell real fifth-generation aircraft for real money, these should really be real planes.

And yet you shouldn't forget about yourself. Otherwise, this Checkmate can easily repeat the path of the T-14 "Armata" and the Su-57.
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  1. Iskazi
    Iskazi 22 July 2021 04: 18
    +80
    The author in his healthy skepticism is absolutely right ..., this is the Russian Federation, baby
    1. Yuri V.A
      Yuri V.A 22 July 2021 05: 35
      +10
      Goofy marketing. An excellent offer for a reasonable price, it was necessary to put Lyonya Golubkov in the booth at the exhibition.
      1. Babay Atasovich
        Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 06: 24
        +10
        Quote: Yuri V.A.
        Goofy marketing. An excellent offer for a reasonable price, it was necessary to put Lyonya Golubkov in the booth at the exhibition.

        I'm probably the only one here who went from aviator to animator (not to be confused with mass entertainer!) And from GA to Air Defense Force! laughing For the last five years I have been working in advertising. The main thing in it is to attract the attention of a potential buyer. And how to attract - at least put Lyonya, at least Pugacheva! The main thing is the RESULT !!! yes The more convincingly you show emotions to the producer, the more chances you will get finances - this is stupid business! wink And there is no difference - a layout or a prototype, the more beautiful and convincing, the more reality in the embodiment of the idea! And the Suhovites will pay - they will make a swallow and blow a flea! !! yes
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 22 July 2021 07: 28
            +36
            Quote: For example
            Sukhoi demonstrated new plane.

            A real plane?

            Quote: For example
            Sukhoi named terms

            Well, this fundamentally changes the matter!)) As the scammers say in these cases:
            - Consider you have it!
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Stas157
                Stas157 22 July 2021 08: 06
                +5
                Quote: For example
                The admins did not find anything else how to delete my comment.

                Which was quite expected for violation of forum rules and insults. To blame unfair censorship, in this case, is at least naive.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Stas157
          Stas157 22 July 2021 07: 24
          +29
          The swing was a ruble ... a blow for a penny. But the noise ...

          This is the whole point of this PR company. The main thing in which to crow, and there the grass does not grow.
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 22 July 2021 07: 55
            +42
            Quote: Stas157
            The main thing in which to crow, and there the grass does not grow.

            It reminds me of something ...

            How much pathos was at the presentation of the tram of the future R 1, top officials, all that. The result is sad.
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 22 July 2021 07: 59
              +7
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              The result is sad.

              hi But how beautifully they promised!
            2. Vadim237
              Vadim237 22 July 2021 15: 27
              -2
              The R1 was a tram concept - it ended up being very expensive to design in production. Nowadays, more than 10 types of trams are produced in Russia.
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 22 July 2021 18: 19
                +5
                Quote: Vadim237
                The R1 was a tram concept - it ended up being very expensive to design in production. Nowadays, more than 10 types of trams are produced in Russia.


                Why spend money on a concept with no market share?

                I do not argue, it is necessary and possible to make concepts ahead of time.
                But ...
                They must be realizable.
                If you do something ultra-modern, with a level of novelty of more than 50%, albeit prohibitively expensive, then you, as a designer and technologist, must ensure a return on investment from the buyer's costs and make a profit for them.
                Your product may cost dozens of times more expensive than competitors, but it should then accordingly have dozens of times lower maintenance and operating costs.
                1. atalef
                  atalef 22 July 2021 21: 55
                  +5
                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  Why spend money on a concept with no market share?

                  really

                  Quote: SovAr238A
                  you, as a designer and technologist, dmust provide a return on investment from the costs of the buyer and making a profit.

                  You live in Russia 7
                  1. VORON538
                    VORON538 23 July 2021 13: 38
                    0
                    Atalef, does your Israel make cars? Or planes? There is nothing to brag about? And then SUDDENLY you have something?
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 23 July 2021 14: 01
                      +1
                      Launches satellites, there is a small cosmodrome smile
                      Developed their own fighter (Lavi), but the USA made the best offer.
                      1. VORON538
                        VORON538 23 July 2021 14: 22
                        -2
                        The Atalef Jew has several accounts? I haven’t heard anything about Israeli cars or airplanes, let alone launch vehicles for the withdrawal of satellites. But I know very well who is robbing people in Russia, through one, if not more often, to try on a kippah at the time!
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 23 July 2021 14: 26
                        +9
                        "Everyone who disagrees with me is a Jew." fool
                        Well, let's say Volodin, whose 85-year-old mother discovered a business talent in herself and became a billionaire, does he not rob anyone?
                        Thousands of thieving officials? Most of them are quite Russian.
                      3. VORON538
                        VORON538 23 July 2021 14: 54
                        -4
                        Russia, like Ukraine, and like many other countries, is milked by the "chosen by God." Often having bought the so-called "iliks", in which often your clan is, the Sobchak is one of the same, but if you dig well, then in every traitor to Russia there is a potential relative of yours. Of course, there is nothing personal here, just business, albeit on blood, as in Russia in the 90s or now in Ukraine. I have never wondered why, in principle, in general, different peoples in the world do not like you very much. arrange something like a "holocaust"? Think. And instead of otmazotk like "you yourself look for cho banned in Google?" provide data on your automotive industry, aircraft construction, and now, the aerospace industry, in particular, the production of launch vehicles capable of putting satellites into Earth orbit! hi
                      4. 3danimal
                        3danimal 23 July 2021 15: 32
                        +1
                        You write this to a person with light brown hair, blue eyes and a height of 2m. Very exciting wink
                        What is important, a citizen of the Russian Federation.
                        I repeat: try to overcome your limitations, they say "something positive towards Israel can only be said by a Jew."
                        Although .. one scientist Nazi in the 30s coined the term "white Jew" smile Will you take it into service?
                      5. VORON538
                        VORON538 23 July 2021 15: 44
                        +1
                        about blond hair and blue eyes, I can also say that you are communicating with the brown-eyed black-haired son of the emperor of China wassat , only that your chatter about cars, airplanes and missiles capable of delivering satellites into orbit remained a chatter. But everyone knows how your moneylenders put shoes on the whole world. For which, apparently, from time to time a little "Taki do not like you" lol By the way, for some reason, Israeli satellites were launched from our "Vostochny". And WHERE are your missiles, you are our independent wassat
                      6. 3danimal
                        3danimal 23 July 2021 15: 48
                        0
                        Everything is clear, the patient is hopeless fool
                      7. VORON538
                        VORON538 23 July 2021 15: 52
                        -2
                        That is, you have nothing to answer on the merits of the questions asked about Israeli cars, planes and rockets (capable of putting a satellite into orbit of the planet), because there is nothing. People already know about the rest!
                      8. 3danimal
                        3danimal 23 July 2021 23: 56
                        -3
                        There is nothing to answer me to this conspiracy nonsense (you probably believe in the world government?):
                        But everyone knows how your moneylenders shoe the whole world


                        and rockets (capable of putting a satellite into orbit of the planet) there is nothing to answer, because there is nothing

                        Google to the rescue. Don't have internet at your fingertips? Or do you not use it for religious reasons?

                        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Шавит

                        Even more interesting: Israel has an MRBM and an ICBM.

                        https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Иерихон_(ракета)

                        People already know about the rest!

                        Are you talking about the visitors to the provincial conspiracy circle? smile
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 23 July 2021 14: 32
            -1
            Google to help fight ignorance smile
            https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Космические_программы_Израиля
          3. atalef
            atalef 23 July 2021 16: 38
            +1
            Quote: VORON538
            and even more so I did not hear the launch vehicles for the satellite launch

            Show all
            "Shavit" or RSA-3 - a rocket for launching spacecraft. Designed and manufactured in Israel. It was first launched on September 19, 1988 from the Palmachim cosmodrome, making Israel the eighth country in the world capable of independently launching spacecraft into orbit.

            Quote: VORON538
            I know who is robbing people in Russia, through one, if not more often, a kippah at the time to try on!

            And I know that a crow feeds on a pedal.
        3. d4rkmesa
          d4rkmesa 23 July 2021 14: 47
          -1
          So Lavi was also a layout. The Chinese made a fighter out of him. Don't overestimate the blueprints eaten by mice.
        4. atalef
          atalef 23 July 2021 16: 41
          0
          Quote: d4rkmesa
          So Lavi was also a layout. The Chinese made a fighter out of him. Don't overestimate the blueprints eaten by mice.

          Lavi was not a model, lavi was a full-fledged aircraft, several are still flying
        5. d4rkmesa
          d4rkmesa 28 July 2021 13: 28
          0
          "Still flying" - is it in a parallel universe? B-03 according to all sorts of wikipedia - the last flight was made in 1990. This is not even a full-fledged prototype, but what is called the KNS in Russia. Well, ok, I was wrong, there was one flight prototype-no-dummy after all. ) But the Chinese made a completely different plane, much like the Japanese made their F2.
  2. Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 23 July 2021 18: 48
    +1
    Quote: VORON538
    Nothing to brag about?

    He produces financiers and bankers, and genetically! wink
  • SovAr238A
    SovAr238A 23 July 2021 14: 35
    0
    Quote: atalef

    Quote: SovAr238A
    you, as a designer and technologist, dmust provide a return on investment from the costs of the buyer and making a profit.

    You live in Russia 7


    Yes.
    "Your business only grows when your customer has income."
    Direct or indirect.

    Otherwise - the road to nowhere.
  • viva_cuba
    viva_cuba 23 July 2021 07: 08
    0
    beautiful infection!
    1. zenion
      zenion 27 July 2021 18: 12
      0
      Yes, he looks alive in plywood too. In general, all planes used to be made of plywood and fought. And this is to return to how we started. Who's going to sell plywood, really the Finns?
  • d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 23 July 2021 14: 45
    0
    Pedestrian killer. )
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 22 July 2021 08: 14
      +43
      Quote: For example
      Noise and hatred for everything that happens in Russia

      Maybe people are just tired of promises?
      And then for the last 20 years, everyone only promises and does little of it.
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 22 July 2021 14: 17
        -22%
        Quote: Stas157
        Maybe people are just tired of promises?
        And then for the last 20 years, everyone only promises and does little of it.

        And you look across the border. The kaklov are even worse.
        1. vadim dok
          vadim dok 22 July 2021 14: 31
          +23
          And if you look at Somalia or Ethiopia - a complete family lush animal!
        2. Terry18
          Terry18 22 July 2021 16: 06
          +3
          Do you compare Russia in terms of the volume of its economy, in terms of opportunities, with Ukraine?
        3. atalef
          atalef 22 July 2021 21: 58
          +4
          Quote: Narak-zempo
          And you look across the border. The kaklov are even worse.

          this is of course what warms your soul.
          Then I will give you a 100% answer to any whatever happens and no matter how it develops in Russia
          they have 100% worse
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
          2. syndicalist
            syndicalist 23 July 2021 08: 55
            +2
            These are old pictures. At least 50 years old. Today, most of the African countries surpass Russia in terms of living standards. And, if the current course continues, then soon they will frighten their electorate with such shots from Russian reality.
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 23 July 2021 09: 02
              -1
              Interesting statistics:
              1. A009
                A009 23 July 2021 14: 46
                +5
                The average salary in Sudan is $ 11. Do the rest admit that they lied?
              2. My doctor
                My doctor 23 July 2021 21: 39
                0
                Quote: A009
                The average salary in Sudan is $ 11. Do the rest admit that they lied?

                from 2018 to 2020, Sudan was credited with an average salary of $ 500. since 2020, it has been fixed at $ 11.
              3. A009
                A009 23 July 2021 22: 32
                +2
                Falling almost 50 times?
                Can you send a link to the data? I did not find
                Looked at where this plate came from. More precisely, the article on the basis of which this table was made. The links, as you would expect, are not there. But comparison with the data of the world labor organization gives the following picture
                Data for 17 years (for African countries, for Russia I did not understand, probably also 17 years old) Moreover, this data on wages is not translated into dollars, but according to PPP, while Russia was converted at the exchange rate into dollars. (To understand, the ratio of PPP to the official exchange rate: Russia's GDP is about $ 1,4 trillion, at PPP $ 4,6 trillion, that is, 3.3 times less) Of course, this is never a lie or manipulation of data.
                I could be wrong in the data or calculations. And everything is actually as indicated by the author. Please indicate with correct data.
          3. nerd.su
            nerd.su 24 July 2021 05: 53
            +1
            Coastal, mainly oil-producing countries are taken in Africa. The average salary is probably not calculated for the entire population, but for those who have a salary. And this is the urban population and that is not all. And the population of rural areas, which is more than half of the population, does not receive salaries at all. And he lives, unlike a beautiful hohlyatsky picture, in such conditions

  • 3danimal
    3danimal 23 July 2021 15: 34
    -2
    Namely: they promise, they blame bad inheritance, external factors, etc.
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 22 July 2021 08: 32
    +14
    Quote: For example
    This is the point of this article.
    Noise and hatred for everything that happens in Russia

    And that everything that happens in the country should be rejoicing? Does everyone have to march in formation if you so desire? We have a free country.
  • Region-25.rus
    Region-25.rus 22 July 2021 08: 56
    +4
    Analysis of the facts taking place regarding specific projects, it is in your opinion
    Noise and hatred for everything that happens in Russia
    ? And where did the author write about EVERYTHING in Russia?
  • Earthshaker
    Earthshaker 23 July 2021 09: 11
    -3
    The name for this model of the aircraft is Check-chereckmade.
  • zenion
    zenion 24 July 2021 18: 12
    0
    Stas157. There was such a Belarusian cartoon "Kvaka Zadaka". Kwaka sang, and I’m knee-deep in any sea, and I can handle any business. From this very swamp, I will jump into the Pacific Ocean. Watch this cartoon and everything will become clear. And in ancient times they said - do not boast on the way to the army, but boast on the way from the army.
  • Shahno
    Shahno 24 July 2021 18: 38
    0
    The guys decided to hit the "penguin". Fortelle was not very successful.
    Ps. Failed in social networks. So let's get a super-project ... Destroy it with exhibitions.
  • Per se.
    Per se. 22 July 2021 08: 38
    +10
    Quote: Babay Atasovich
    The main thing in it is to attract the attention of a potential buyer.

    Who is the potential buyer? Judging by the name in English - "Checkmate" (checkmate in chess), this is clearly a foreign customer, that is, the aircraft was initially oriented towards export. Here, only, successful export implies something that has already been debugged, has a good reputation, which gives rise to this very demand. How to sell what is "a pig in a poke", who will take it? Well, maybe only "taste buds" ...

    Our brilliant traders of capitalism, only such a level of understanding for profit, and the talent to cut the loot from the budget. When will we think about our Air Force, about creating aircraft for ourselves, and not selling for the sake of? Without this, we will get another "miracle weapon" for "puffing cheeks" in the bourgeois "achievements", where "Checkmate" will turn into "Stalemate".
    Yes, we also have a "Moscow gourmet" ... Where are those willing to "take everything"?
    1. Babay Atasovich
      Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 10: 56
      -6
      Quote: Per se.
      Quote: Babay Atasovich
      The main thing in it is to attract the attention of a potential buyer.

      Who is the potential buyer? Judging by the name in English - "Checkmate" (checkmate in chess), this is clearly a foreign customer, that is, the aircraft was initially oriented towards export. Here, only, successful export implies something that has already been debugged, has a good reputation, which gives rise to this very demand. How to sell what is "a pig in a poke", who will take it? Well, maybe only "taste buds" ...
      Our brilliant traders of capitalism, only such a level of understanding for profit, and the talent to cut the loot from the budget. When will we think about our Air Force, about creating aircraft for ourselves, and not selling for the sake of?

      Yes, no matter "who" - it is stupid to draw money under the name "dry", under the brand, under the honest pioneer! from desire and impossibility! Hai push odnodvizkovye to anyone, but that profit would come into service with the Air Force !!! ManEdzhars got bored !!!
      1. bayard
        bayard 22 July 2021 11: 52
        +12
        Quote: Babay Atasovich
        Yes, no matter "who" - it is stupid to draw out money under the name of "dry"

        So it seems there is one foreign customer. Unnamed. Which was originally and under whose order the work began.
        He, of course, was not named, but persistent rumors claim that this is the UAE.
        In addition, Vietnam has long persuaded the KLA to make and offer a single-engine fighter, because they need ONLY a single-engine fighter. To replace the MiG-21.
        In addition, photographs taken up close indicate that this is not a layout, but quite a concept, with a lot of detail. This is not how layouts do. Flightless, for testing units and equipment, ground tests.
        The presentation, of course, was ... pompous and in the light of all the unfulfilled promises of recent years ... annoyed many.
        But the product does have a chance to shoot.
        1. Babay Atasovich
          Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 11: 56
          0
          Well, God forbid ....
        2. Alex777
          Alex777 22 July 2021 16: 03
          0
          So it seems there is one foreign customer. Unnamed. Which was originally and under whose order the work began.

          IMHO, the name Checkmate directly hints at the customer. As they say, he who has eyes, let him see. wink
          Well, for those who do not grow the grass just to brand capitalism or someone else, it is useless to prove something now.
          Everyone will see for themselves in time. All by ourselves ... bully
          1. psiho117
            psiho117 22 July 2021 17: 10
            +1
            Quote: Alex777
            the name Checkmate directly hints at the customer

            Hindus, or what? Oh, doubtful ...
            They want everything at once, at what for our money, on their territory, and that the whole chain be donated. On that development of the Indian version of the 57th and burned out.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 22 July 2021 17: 12
              +2
              On that development of the Indian version of the 57th and burned out.

              Over the past time, China has grown so much that the Indians are no longer up to fat ...
              1. psiho117
                psiho117 22 July 2021 17: 15
                +2
                Quote: Alex777
                China has grown so much that the Indians are no longer up to fat ...

                They still have an open tender for a modern 5th generation aircraft - and there it is for everything, everything, everything.
                It seems to me that our developers will not stick there - at least not yet.
                Yes, and the plane as such is not yet, there is nothing to offer.
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 22 July 2021 17: 17
                  +2
                  They still have an open tender for a modern 5th generation aircraft - and there it is for everything, everything, everything.

                  Chew and see, said 2 tigers when they met a new trainer.
              2. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                Ivanoff_Ivanoff 22 July 2021 21: 02
                -3
                Quote: Alex777
                Indians are no longer up to fat

                Did the Indians tell you this, or again unverified rumors? In India, tenders have been going on for years. If there was an urgent need, they would turn around in an instant. They are currently modernizing their "dryers", and the tender ... The tender - here it is, now, and even a long Indian tender will not go so long to master the LTS in the series during this time. Well, now the KLA has already flown - the MiG-35 "did not enter". There is nothing to go to the Indians with yet.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 22 July 2021 22: 24
                  +5
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  ... Well, now the KLA has already flown - the MiG-35 "did not enter". There is nothing to go to the Indians with yet.

                  Last year, when it really burned, the Indians urgently requested a batch of MiG-29s from the presence of the RF Ministry of Defense. Then their delegation watched the MiG-35 in Lipetsk, their pilots flew, they liked it. Now negotiations are underway and the Indians are leaning towards the MiG-35.
                  And yes, a new batch of MiG-29K \ KUB has been ordered for a new Indian aircraft carrier.

                  After the Chinese killed and maimed a bunch of Indians in Laddakh with stones and clubs, the brains of the dancers began to improve.
                  But the main / main customers for the LFMI Su-75 are not India at all, but the UAE (which is not advertised) and Vietnam, which has long begged for such an aircraft.
                2. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  Ivanoff_Ivanoff 22 July 2021 23: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: bayard
                  Last year, when it really burned, the Indians urgently requested a batch of MiG-29

                  what was said
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  There would be an urgent need - they would turn around in an instant

                  India is definitely not the customer for the new Russian fighter.

                  Quote: bayard
                  Now negotiations are underway and the Indians are leaning towards the MiG-35

                  A bit of history. In 2011, the MiG-35 miserably lost the tender for the supply of fighters to India, losing to the French Rafal. Then the Mikoyan Design Bureau admitted that it had put forward a crude car for the tender. In 2018, India announced a new MMRCA tender for the purchase of 114 "medium multi-role combat aircraft" for the Indian Air Force. The list of participants included Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, F / A-18E, F-16 and MiG-35. But then the MiG disappeared from the list, although the Russian media was quick to declare it the favorite in the tender.
                  The Indians had many complaints about the Mikoyan vehicle, the main one of which was the lack of a radar with AFAR.
                  Based on this story, can we say that the MiG "entered"?

                  At MAKS-2019, the Indian delegation signed only a memorandum on servicing MiG-29 aircraft in India. And nothing more. The rest is just talk.
                3. bayard
                  bayard 23 July 2021 01: 12
                  +4
                  I did not call India a potential customer for the presented LFMI, they are considering their own tender and their own aircraft.
                  Will the MiG-35 be taken?
                  If there is AFAR, they will take it.
                4. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  Ivanoff_Ivanoff 23 July 2021 01: 37
                  0
                  AFAR, price, technology and assembly in Indian factories. So far, only Russia and the United States with their F-21 are ready to offer the entire "range of services". But it is far from the fact that the MiG will be lucky. Alas, he failed all previous attempts.
                5. bayard
                  bayard 23 July 2021 02: 32
                  +3
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  AFAR

                  They say there is, but this is not certain.
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  price

                  We look at the price of "Raphael" and are moved.
                  Our price will always be the best.
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  technologies and assembly in Indian factories

                  Yes, easily, the Russian side initially proposed it.
                  And, oh, horror, even the localization of engine production.
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  But it is far from the fact that the MiG will be lucky.

                  AFAR will not grow together, will not smile.
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  Alas, he failed all previous attempts.

                  It is our own fault - they offered the plane, which does not exist. We thought it would be like with the Su-30MKI and T-90.
                6. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  Ivanoff_Ivanoff 23 July 2021 02: 40
                  +1
                  Quote: bayard
                  We look at the price of "Raphael" and are moved.
                  Our price will always be the best

                  here you should not look at the Rafale, but at the F-21. Viper is a serious competitor. It fully complies with the requirements of the tender, there is an AFAR, and they promise full localization to the Indians. And they collect additional bonuses for the refusal of Russian aircraft (in particular, assistance in the construction of an aircraft carrier, etc.). The very ones to whom the Mi-28 lost
                7. bayard
                  bayard 23 July 2021 04: 01
                  +2
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  here you should not look at the Rafale, but at the F-21. Viper

                  And yet the MiG-35 is more interesting. Both the price and the fact that with the localization of production, including engines, these engines are exactly suitable for their own light fighter (now an F-18 engine is assumed for it). That is, with one choice, India will solve two of its most important issues at once.
                  And the MiG-35 has more advantages:
                  - he feels very good in the highlands,
                  - has a large thrust-to-weight ratio, maneuverability and speed,
                  - provides greater safety and survivability.

                  Help with an aircraft carrier? RF can also help with this and is helping to this day.
                  Russia built two aircraft carriers for them (the second helped to finish building).
                  India, by the way, abandoned the F-18 for its aircraft carrier in favor of the MiG-29K \ KUB.
                  I repeat, if there is an AFAR with sufficient characteristics, the contract will be for the Russian Federation.
                  Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                  to which the Mi-28 lost

                  Then the Mi-28 was completely raw with an archaic composition of weapons.
                  It would be different today.
  • D16
    D16 24 July 2021 09: 56
    0
    development of the Indian version of the 57th and burned out.

    The development of the Indian version of the 57th stopped because the Indians need to change the MiG-21 here and now, and not later, someday. And the budget is one and not rubber. Wishlist is not enough for everything.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • SovAr238A
    SovAr238A 22 July 2021 18: 26
    +2
    Quote: bayard
    Quote: Babay Atasovich
    Yes, no matter "who" - it is stupid to draw out money under the name of "dry"

    So it seems there is one foreign customer. Unnamed. Which was originally and under whose order the work began.
    He, of course, was not named, but persistent rumors claim that this is the UAE.
    In addition, Vietnam has long persuaded the KLA to make and offer a single-engine fighter, because they need ONLY a single-engine fighter. To replace the MiG-21.
    In addition, photographs taken up close indicate that this is not a layout, but quite a concept, with a lot of detail. This is not how layouts do. Flightless, for testing units and equipment, ground tests.
    The presentation, of course, was ... pompous and in the light of all the unfulfilled promises of recent years ... annoyed many.
    But the product does have a chance to shoot.

    The UAE has a contract to buy the F-35, and Israel has given the go-ahead for this deal ...
    Vietnam is in doubt ...
    The Americans have licked Vietnam very much for the past 5 years, under the pretext of the Spratly Islands and the rest, and are ready to supply it with any equipment ...
    1. bayard
      bayard 23 July 2021 00: 23
      +5
      Quote: SovAr238A
      UAE has a contract to buy F-35, and Israel gave the go-ahead

      This is for today, and the Su-75 is a prospect for the end of the decade.
      Quote: SovAr238A
      Vietnam is in doubt ...
      Americans have been licking Vietnam very hard for the past 5 years

      This is true, but the Vietnamese themselves want Russian planes and have long asked to do just this - single-engine and inexpensive. And the first reaction of Vietnam to the presentation was "finally", "if the plane turns out exactly like this, then we will definitely take it."
      Quote: SovAr238A
      under the pretext of the Spratly Islands and the rest, and are ready to supply him with any equipment ...

      To take from the United States is to enter into a coalition with them against China. Vietnam is unlikely to want to exacerbate an already difficult relationship. It is another matter to take from Russia - the deterrent factor from China, and without aggravation, and the equipment is cheaper. Yes, and everything is familiar.
      But so far only a mock-up or a ground-based concept is available. When it flies and the prospects become clear, then it will be seen.
      If such an aircraft were available today, the demand would be very brisk.
  • Ivanoff_Ivanoff
    Ivanoff_Ivanoff 22 July 2021 20: 58
    +2
    Quote: bayard
    Vietnam has long persuaded the KLA to make and offer a single-engine fighter

    But Vietnam needs an airplane now, not in 10 years. They play distillation with China.
    1. bayard
      bayard 23 July 2021 00: 24
      0
      Now we can toss the MiG-29 out of stock as a temporary measure. They will be no worse than the F-16.
      1. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
        Ivanoff_Ivanoff 23 July 2021 00: 31
        -1
        Quote: bayard
        Now we can toss the MiG-29 out of stock as a temporary measure. They will be no worse than the F-16.

        China does not have an F-16. He has either Russian or his own. Vietnam wants it to be no worse than Chinese. They are Su-30 only because of the counterweight of the PLA Air Force and bought
        1. bayard
          bayard 23 July 2021 01: 21
          +3
          Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
          China does not have an F-16.

          F-16 is offered to Vietnam by the USA. But this is undesirable for Vietnam, the United States is an enemy that has killed millions of Vietnamese. Brutally ruined.
          China is also an enemy of Vietnam. but also a neighbor.
          Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
          Vietnam wants to be no worse than the Chinese.

          Well, the MiG-29 with the upgrade will be no worse than the Chinese J-10. And there, by the end of the decade, the Su-75 will arrive in time. You can also add a batch of Su-30, even in the export version of the CM2, for greater confidence.
          But Vietnam wants to replace its MiG-21s with a single-engine LFMI. He wants it from Russia. He is so much more comfortable. For to take from the United States - immediately aggravation with China. And from Russia it is a completely different matter. Russia is friends with both of them.
          1. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
            Ivanoff_Ivanoff 23 July 2021 01: 32
            +1
            Quote: bayard
            But for Vietnam, this is undesirable, the United States is an enemy that has killed millions of Vietnamese.

            Vietnamese do not like to remember that war. They try to forget her. For them, he is not at all what the Great Patriotic War is for us. Rather, something like a Civil War, a war between the North and the South. And relations with the United States have long been normal. Moreover, the United States and Vietnam are moving closer to confront China. From fiscal 2012 to fiscal 2017, Vietnam received more than $ 55 million in bilateral gratuitous military aid from the United States. Another 16 were allocated in the next two years, and their trade turnover is high (more than with China and Russia). What makes you think that countries are at war? The Vietnamese have a worse attitude towards Russia than towards Washington. Surprisingly, many people there now consider the USSR to be guilty - they say, there was no way to get into our country.

            The United States is transferring ships, drones, and TCB to Vietnam. They also plan to transplant on the F-16. That country has long been in Washington's sphere of influence.
          2. bayard
            bayard 23 July 2021 02: 22
            +4
            Have fun.
            Vietnam is maneuvering, it needs a counterbalance in the conflict with China, and the USSR is long gone.
            And the resentment against Russia is akin to the one in Cuba - "my country is asked .... and we were abandoned."
            That the US is courting them is not surprising.
            The fact that Vietnam is trying not to remind the United States of the past - too.
            The fact that he accepts handouts from the Yankees ... the amounts are ridiculous - they don't buy like that. Russia has forgiven much more debts.
            But the planes are bought in the Russian Federation.
            And these will be bought if they appear in real life.
            And in Kamran our ships and aircraft will receive and receive.
            And Vietnam will not fight for the United States.
            That's for sure .
          3. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
            Ivanoff_Ivanoff 23 July 2021 02: 34
            0
            Quote: bayard
            Have fun

            for God's sake)
            Quote: bayard
            Vietnam is maneuvering, it needs a counterbalance in the conflict with China, and the USSR is long gone

            and the United States can become such an ally. Vietnam and China have a lot of trouble about the disputed territories. Russia will not support him in that, so as not to spoil relations with Beijing. USA - easy. They are only busy looking for allies in that region for friendship against China.
            Quote: bayard
            in Kamran our ships and aircraft will receive and receive

            in Da Nang hosted an American aircraft carrier. What does that mean? Exactly like joint naval exercises?
            Quote: bayard
            But planes are bought in Russia

            yet - yes. But everything can change very soon ...

            Russia is rapidly losing, if not allies, then potentially loyal countries. Incl. and arms markets. They are trying to squeeze us out of India (and, as you can see, this is not a bad thing, including through the efforts of our managers), from the rest of the traditional buying states, too. Vietnam is slowly drifting towards the USA ...
          4. bayard
            bayard 23 July 2021 03: 12
            -1
            Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
            Vietnam is slowly drifting towards the USA ...

            If he wants problems for himself - his business.
  • zyablik.olga
    zyablik.olga 23 July 2021 03: 59
    +5
    Quote: bayard
    Now we can toss the MiG-29 out of stock as a temporary measure. They will be no worse than the F-16

    Hello. The problem is that we have almost no MiG-29 left. Fighters of this type built in the USSR have mostly rotted away. The newest are aircraft returned by Algeria. That's another story ... negative
    1. bayard
      bayard 23 July 2021 04: 31
      -1
      But we still have combatant MiG-29s. If anything, they can be safely delivered to Vietnam as a temporary measure, while they wait for the new LFMI. And put new MiG-35s in their regiments.
      Or the Su-35.
      We renew the fleet, the Vietnamese - the strengthening of the Air Force.
      Moreover, the MiG-29 can be delivered on the basis of ... lease, with a return after the start of deliveries of the Su-75.
  • dauria
    dauria 22 July 2021 15: 07
    +7
    Sukhovtsy have no talent, who would dump the grandmother for the realities of the Air Force

    Oops! On each pillar they offer a loan, Sberbank is tired of SMS-kami. Just take it ... laughing Do banks distrust Sukhov's directors so much? wassat
    Wow ... such geniuses of aircraft construction, but their native Nabiulina does not believe ...
    So what's wrong? Bankers are bad, or OJSC? You know, if I had money, I'd rather invest in Lockheed Martin, rather than entrust it to our crooks, both banking and inventors.
    1. Babay Atasovich
      Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 15: 30
      0
      Quote: dauria
      Sukhovtsy have no talent, who would dump the grandmother for the realities of the Air Force

      Oops! On each pillar they offer a loan, Sberbank is tired of SMS-kami. Just take it ... laughing Do banks distrust Sukhov's directors so much? wassat
      Wow ... such geniuses of aircraft construction, but their native Nabiulina does not believe ...
      So what's wrong? Bankers are bad, or OJSC? You know, if I had money, I'd rather invest in Lockheed Martin, rather than entrust it to our crooks, both banking and inventors.

      Your LOCHID PASSERS are hurting for a semi-finished product painfully selfishly at times! laughing The poor Pentagon cannot achieve improvements for the gadget, and the money for the "dampness" off-limits falls off. Invisibility turned out to be a mess. But the attendants for PR are shoveled off immensely! Sushniki are siskins in such matters, even with their newly minted MANErs! hi laughing
    2. English tarantas
      English tarantas 22 July 2021 18: 17
      +4
      Lockheed-Martin "invested, but did not entrust our crooks, both banking and inventing" unparalleled ".

      Yes, no, these can also dissolve as the latter, but at least they will not let money into the pipe, but at least they will do something
    3. Intruder
      Intruder 22 July 2021 19: 34
      +4
      That, banks do not trust Sukhov's directors so much
      Personal income tax-2 is not given at work, only after 3 years of work, and then, a secret paper for all kinds of commercial banks ... yes hi
      Bankers are bad, or OJSC? You know, if I had money, I'd rather invest in Lockheed Martin, rather than entrust it to our crooks, both banks and inventors who have no analogues.
      Here, they do not trust - apparently not patriots !? lol , do not want to support Russian manufacturers, but they did not sleep at night for a whole year, they did supercomputer tests (virtual), as they said at their presentation! And so, bye ... as in this song:

      Better in the Tesla stock, now you can cook more in a year ... drinks
    4. Peaceful SEO
      Peaceful SEO 22 July 2021 20: 23
      0
      It's so good that you are not in charge of the money :)
  • Terry18
    Terry18 22 July 2021 16: 09
    0
    "liberation" who is this?
    1. Babay Atasovich
      Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 17: 01
      0
      All kinds of trainings (not to be confused with Jews!). Traders, in a word.
      Quote: Terry18
      "liberation" who is this?
  • Yuri V.A
    Yuri V.A 22 July 2021 10: 41
    +5
    If, as a result of this performance, there is a contract for a more or less decent batch of cars, then of course we can say that the show was successful. Only a valid model is in any case more convincing than beautiful candy wrappers of promises.
  • Intruder
    Intruder 22 July 2021 19: 28
    +5
    And there is no difference - a layout or a prototype, the more beautiful and convincing, the more reality in the embodiment of the idea! And the Suhovites will pay - they will make a swallow and blow a flea! !!
    The best advertisement is rolling out onto the runway and full throttle of the throttle on the takeoff ... good hi And then there would be less skepticism and mistrust in the success of such an ambitious project of the UAC and Sukhoi!
    1. Oleg Aviator
      Oleg Aviator 23 July 2021 08: 31
      0
      Well, do better if you don't like this one. I am surprised that the plane, even if the stand and a bunch of raw flaws showed, made it clear that we were not sitting still, and then a bunch of indoor Hercules were doused with slop.)
      1. Turbo diesel
        Turbo diesel 27 July 2021 11: 40
        0
        Moreover, the top-var management is satisfied
  • Oleg Aviator
    Oleg Aviator 23 July 2021 08: 22
    +1
    The process is underway and this is the main thing. Considering all the limitations, this is a good result. And as far as I understood, this is not a model but a ground stand. So they will do the plane, unless, of course, the unexpected happens again. I think it's too early to put a label on insolvency.
  • V means B
    V means B 24 July 2021 10: 31
    0
    And how, in your competent opinion, does the Su-57 fit a "swallow, they will blow a flea !!!"
    1. Babay Atasovich
      Babay Atasovich 24 July 2021 10: 45
      0
      Quote: V is for B
      And how, in your competent opinion, does the Su-57 fit a "swallow, they will blow a flea !!!"

      In my opinion, all Sukhov's cars are swallows - at air shows ALL saliva comes from their capabilities! And you are hinting that somewhere there is an analogue wink
      1. V means B
        V means B 24 July 2021 10: 49
        0
        I am not hinting at anything, because not very competent in these matters. I just asked your opinion on how one of those who studied this, so that one step closer to understanding why there is so little Su-57 in combat units at the moment.
        1. Babay Atasovich
          Babay Atasovich 24 July 2021 12: 44
          0
          Well, if you are so interested ... It's all about the "gaskets" between the customer-financier-executor. Lockheed-Martin has a spacer of the same thickness, eats a lot and requires execution speed. Sukhoi has less appetite and requires results. The first approach is "you need to make an application for the World", promote and cut the dough ... I sincerely feel sorry for their designers - "here's an iron that should fly!" The second approach is to snatch, but what would be something to report to the First. And then the designers are strained, but the school is old and they understand that the plane should fly, not crawl. So they are waiting for the promised one or the other, and after receiving it, they add the dampness that has arisen. It's just that their approach is different: on some they make money for a wrapper, on others for a candy, that's the time difference ... I think that soon they will be paid from both for the wrapper.
          Has your curiosity satisfied with your opinion? wink
          1. V means B
            V means B 25 July 2021 19: 27
            0
            In some part, yes.
            1. Babay Atasovich
              Babay Atasovich 25 July 2021 20: 02
              0
              Quote: V is for B
              In some part, yes.

              You know, I'm generally neutral. I don’t care about the countries living, but as an aviator who switched to animators and freelancers, I’ll tell you my understanding of the essence of current movements: loot rules everyone! So a generation of PR people has appeared in the Russian Federation. They pop in an "image" that is not made - they push through the air! And then the designers take the rap ... The age of show-off has come! yes
  • Stas157
    Stas157 22 July 2021 07: 16
    +21
    How many F-35s have the United States sold to other countries?

    Yes, there is a queue. But not everyone is sold!

    What is typical. Those who do not sell the F-35 are offered the Su-57. But no one has yet been found. Apparently the second stage engine is waiting. Well, or just waiting ... when the queue on the F-35 will decrease.
    1. Babay Atasovich
      Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 07: 50
      -2
      Quote: Stas157
      How many F-35s have the United States sold to other countries?

      Yes, there is a queue. Well, or just waiting ... when the queue on the F-35 will decrease.

      Aha! And if you want to get out of the queue, those sanctions !!! laughing good yes
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 22 July 2021 07: 55
        +7
        Quote: Babay Atasovich
        on those sanctions !!!

        So maybe this ... can also impose sanctions, all those who do not want to buy the Su-57 and Su-75 ??

        This is what the queue should be lined up !!
        1. Babay Atasovich
          Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 08: 06
          +5
          Quote: Stas157
          Quote: Babay Atasovich
          on those sanctions !!!

          So maybe this ... can also impose sanctions, all those who do not want to buy the Su-57 and Su-75 ??

          This is what the queue should be lined up !!

          There is no mistake in the letters: they buy dryers not because of sanctions, but DO NOT buy them because of possible sanctions! wink It's like with the S400 - there are a dime a dozen of those who want to, and the courageous to go against it, only Turkish meat! laughing
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 22 July 2021 08: 10
            -4
            Quote: Babay Atasovich
            dryers are bought not because of sanctions, but DO NOT buy due to possible sanctions!

            So the Su-30 seems to be not badly bought at all.
            1. Babay Atasovich
              Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 08: 46
              +1
              So 30 ka and not so worth it! fellow And not the 5th generation
              1. Babay Atasovich
                Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 10: 59
                -5
                Oh!!! A couple of terrible comments were deleted while he was absent ... I think you wrote something about PR Fu-35? "What a pity!" laughing
          2. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 22 July 2021 18: 36
            +1
            Quote: Babay Atasovich
            Quote: Stas157
            Quote: Babay Atasovich
            on those sanctions !!!

            So maybe this ... can also impose sanctions, all those who do not want to buy the Su-57 and Su-75 ??

            This is what the queue should be lined up !!

            There is no mistake in the letters: they buy dryers not because of sanctions, but DO NOT buy them because of possible sanctions! wink It's like with the S400 - there are a dime a dozen of those who want to, and the courageous to go against it, only Turkish meat! laughing

            Can you provide a list of interested persons?
            Which are "a dime a dozen"?
            Term: Although a dime a dozen of something - a lot, a large number, quantity.
            Besides the interest from India, there was no other interest from anyone!
            At all!
            Even if you know that the S-400, they began to be offered on the world market significantly earlier than the sanctions on Kaatsa.
            So we stop throwing caps, and at the same time, we stop lying.
            1. Babay Atasovich
              Babay Atasovich 22 July 2021 18: 47
              -2
              I can give you a link to a list of hundreds of flaws in the hyped and sniffed Fu-35, which the Pentagon has identified and has been unsuccessfully trying to fix it for more than one year! And the money pays awesome for the bought "fu" !!!laughing
          3. Oleg Aviator
            Oleg Aviator 23 July 2021 08: 38
            +1
            I completely agree with you. The Lockheeds have a very good congressional lobby and leverage themselves and others. Where they can reach. At one time, they also lined up for a starfighter)
  • Intruder
    Intruder 22 July 2021 19: 11
    +6
    it was necessary to put Lyonya Golubkov in the booth at the exhibition.
    Then, the Chief would not have appreciated, he already had a pensive grief on his face, yesterday he looked again from the show, not a single smile, only meaningfully ... winked
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  • 72jora72
    72jora72 22 July 2021 06: 07
    +17
    this is RF, baby

    It was Lenin and the Khazars who set mines, you know .........
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  • Sergey Kulikov_3
    Sergey Kulikov_3 22 July 2021 13: 00
    +7
    And what is the author's right? Where did he find the F-35 with the declared characteristics, show it to people, so that it can fly at supersonic, and withstand 8G overloads, and fly with 8 tons of load? There are no such, and there is nothing to talk about.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 22 July 2021 15: 32
      0
      This aircraft has more than 100 complaints about the equipment - the last one is too fast engine wear from the originally declared one - more than a crude product of the American military-industrial complex, and besides, it is expensive to maintain and operate, created it to drink the budget and sell it to the allies.
    2. Terry18
      Terry18 22 July 2021 16: 17
      +3
      The F-35 has a top speed of 1930 km / h (1,6 M). Maximum operational overload F-35A 9G. Combat load of 9,1 tons. What will we compare with?
      1. Sergey Kulikov_3
        Sergey Kulikov_3 22 July 2021 16: 27
        +2
        Let's compare with the characteristics of the Fu-35, this is the one that is actually purchased, the maximum speed of 1200 km / h is not more than a couple of minutes, the maximum overload is 4-6G, the combat load is up to 4 tons. , and yes you have forgotten about the engine resource, but you can pray for your filkin letter, dreaming is not harmful.
        1. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
          Ivanoff_Ivanoff 22 July 2021 20: 11
          +4
          Quote: Sergey Kulikov_3
          maximum speed 1200 km / h no more than a couple of minutes, maximum overload 4-6G, combat load up to 4t

          Are you on your knees yourself, are you composing performance characteristics? Or are you not sucking it out of your finger?
          Engine thrust without afterburner - 13 tons, afterburner - 19,5 tons, maximum speed - 1930 km / h (M = 1,6), flight range 2500 km, combat radius without PTB - 1000 km, service ceiling 18 km, operational overload + 9g for the F-35A and 7,5g for the vkertikalki, thrust-to-weight ratio with a combat weight - more than 1.
          In contrast to the shown mock-up, the F-35 has been tested and confirmed.
          1. Sergey Kulikov_3
            Sergey Kulikov_3 22 July 2021 23: 11
            -6
            I watched commercials about the F-35, but they do not say that at supersonic speeds, the coating begins to climb from the tail unit and possibly the destruction of the airframe. I don’t know how the F-35 was tested, but news on the Fu-35 ailments is constantly discussed on the Internet.
            1. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
              Ivanoff_Ivanoff 23 July 2021 01: 20
              +4
              Quote: Sergey Kulikov_3
              news on Fu-35 sores is constantly discussed on the Internet

              only because the information on them is in the public domain. This is the first program to be so unparalleled. You will not find such information either on Rafal, or on the Su-35, or on the Typhoon. Which does not mean at all that these aircraft do not have any drawbacks. Or, in your opinion, since they do not speak, then they are not? One person constantly complains to doctors about sores, the other does not. Does this mean that the second is absolutely healthy? Not at all.
              It would be interesting to read similar reports on the Su-57. Only they are unlikely when they will be published ..
              Another important aspect is that absolutely everything is included in the list of F-35 shortcomings, incl. and such "defects" that do not interfere in any way with flights and combat work. Some planes live with them until old age - and nothing.

              Any plane, especially a new one, has a lot of disadvantages. I can give you an example of an aircraft of any aviation power, even the United States, even France, even the USSR, even Britain. The volume testers are filling up with jambs.
              In fact, more than 35 F-660s have been produced, the aircraft has reached combat readiness, has flown more than 240 thousand hours and has only 6 losses. There is a queue behind the plane. Jews fly, use it in the database - and do not complain. The plane flies, the shortcomings are corrected. But when will the Su-57's shortcomings be corrected? It is possible to identify all the shortcomings only by mass exploitation.
              1. Babay Atasovich
                Babay Atasovich 23 July 2021 09: 26
                -1
                Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
                In fact, more than 35 F-660s were produced, the aircraft reached combat readiness, flown more than 240 thousand hours and has only 6 losses.
                As new and with a bunch of shortcomings could they admit to the industrial scale ?? Annual commissions identify only thousand imperfection of the 1st and 2nd degree, and the plane is snatched by the allies! Or is it stamped on purpose so that it is mandatory to complete all those issued for a decent loot? good laughing wassat
        2. Ivanoff_Ivanoff
          Ivanoff_Ivanoff 23 July 2021 01: 23
          +2
          Quote: Sergey Kulikov_3
          Yes, you still forgot about the engine resource

          there are no complaints about the motor at all. Resource 4 thousand hours. Many look at the F135 with envy. Many people are far from him.
          1. Babay Atasovich
            Babay Atasovich 23 July 2021 09: 31
            +1
            Quote: Ivanoff_Ivanoff
            Resource 4 thousand hours

            You put it in the US Congress and the Pentagon, who are still dissatisfied with the march! laughing
          2. D16
            D16 24 July 2021 10: 59
            0
            there are no complaints about the motor at all. Resource 4 thousand hours. Many look at the F135 with envy

            47 sides are standing due to the degradation of the heat-shielding coating of the turbine blades. Only Cinderella had a bigger problem, whose carriage turned into a pumpkin, although ... lol
      2. Oleg Aviator
        Oleg Aviator 23 July 2021 08: 40
        0
        These are all ads from the Lockheed brochure. 9g you say?)
    3. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 22 July 2021 19: 04
      +5
      Quote: Sergey Kulikov_3
      And what is the author's right? Where did he find the F-35 with the declared characteristics, show it to people, so that it can fly at supersonic, and withstand 8G overloads, and fly with 8 tons of load? There are no such, and there is nothing to talk about.

      Just a question.
      Why do the Israelis want more F-35 for themselves ...
      It flies on supersonic.
      It takes as much load as is needed for a combat mission in stealth conditions.
      Only full blvans believe that modern information security is obliged to carry a full ammunition load.
      There have been no carpet bombing for a long time.
      Even our Su-34s in Syria fly combat ones with two 250 kilogram bombs.
      Edge with two 500-pounds.
      But never again.
      For modern information security fly pointwise.
      One task, one goal - one sortie.
      And this has been the case for the last 50 years.
      And the fact that you do not know this is an indicator of your level of understanding.
      That is, the zero level.
      8G overload, now it's addiction.
      Do you know a lot of combat aviation pilots whom EDSU will entrust to work with overload in 7G?
      I do not know about such in combat units.

      Few of our uryakalok know that the F-35 pilot's helmet is a control flash drive.
      It is in the memory of the helmet that all data on the individual capabilities of the pilot for overloads are stored.
      And if the pilot holds, then he will be given.
      Individually, each plane will give exactly as much as it is written in the helmet.
      This is why the F-35 concept is great.
      Loshare - nothing, the master - everything possible ...
      And this, you will not be fooled ...

      That would not be prancing.
      1. Babay Atasovich
        Babay Atasovich 23 July 2021 09: 38
        0
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Few of our uryakalok know that the F-35 pilot's helmet is a control flash drive.

        Yes, in the know! By the way, and in extreme cases, he and the plane can be disabled, tk. is a common system? wink And to add pressure by chance? Well, these are, of course, Russian hackers in Chinese chips! So the helmet was brought to mind, or is it raw?
        1. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 23 July 2021 13: 43
          +3
          Quote: Babay Atasovich
          So the helmet was brought to mind, or is it raw?


          The helmet is made in Israel - so we brought it up!
          1. Babay Atasovich
            Babay Atasovich 23 July 2021 14: 47
            -3
            good Well, one flyers with a helmet were lucky! Does it mean that the rest is 90% finished? wink
      2. CastroRuiz
        CastroRuiz 23 July 2021 13: 59
        0
        IL is not the best example. They are in F 35, except for the radar, all their avionics are put.
    4. Intruder
      Intruder 22 July 2021 19: 50
      +6
      Where did he find the F-35 with the declared characteristics, show it to people, so that it can fly in supersonic, and withstand 8G overloads, and fly with 8 tons of load? There are no such, and there is nothing to talk about.
      Well, he showed STOVL mode for a long time:

      Characteristics, also not yet attainable, for this new MAKS 2021 product:
      - one turbojet engine Pratt Whitney F135 with a thrust - 19,5 tf;
      Maximum combat load - 9,1 t .;
      Practical ceiling - 18 288 m .;
      Flight range - 2 km;
      Maximum takeoff weight - 30 tons;
      Maximum speed - 2065 km / h;
      Wingspan - 10,7 m.;
      Wing area - 42,7 sq. m .;
      Length - 15,67 m.;
      Height - 4,33 m.;

      And the cherry on the cake fellow , an absolutely fantastic product for the entire UEC alliance, together with Rostec:
      1. Alber alber
        Alber alber 22 July 2021 20: 37
        +1
        Uh, there the maximum speed of f35 was given at 1930 km / h, well, there are about constantly revealed shortcomings, the constant growth of the program cost, the dissatisfaction of the profile warriors, but this is me grumbling, do not pay attention, continue.
      2. Sergey Kulikov_3
        Sergey Kulikov_3 22 July 2021 23: 35
        -2
        But the evil American languages ​​claim that by 15% of the Fu-35 on the engine blades, the heat-resistant coating began to peel off and the planes are waiting for the replacement of engines. I already wrote about speed above. There is another interesting statement by evil American languages ​​about the fact that the Fu-35 cannot be used in the rain and that it is necessary to fly around thunderstorm fronts for 40 km, but then they just slander about a wonderful plane, because even the birds try to sit out in the rain, so that such wonderful planes worth triple beware.
      3. Oleg Aviator
        Oleg Aviator 23 July 2021 08: 43
        0
        Crumbs are not a correct comparison. Considering the capabilities of the Yankes and the Russian Federation.) The fact that they are doing it is already good. Unlike other republics who decided to play jackals and in the end lost everything they got and in return they throw off the old trash which they take off from themselves.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 23 July 2021 11: 30
    +2
    the author is right in skepticism, but not in his quantity.
    besides, what does it mean "to repeat the route of t14 and su-57"?
    Is their path finished and declassified? And there are too many such distortions.
    I would like to add only one thing. The Su-75 project, if not a dummy, may well repeat the success of the F-16, even without preliminary sales, as was the case with the penguin.
    But for this you need to do a lot of professional work.
    But I do not believe that we are ready to do this work. There are too many people in Rostec and the government who care about aviation.
    1. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 23 July 2021 14: 30
      0
      Quote: yehat2
      the author is right in skepticism, but not in his quantity.
      besides, what does it mean "to repeat the route of t14 and su-57"?
      Is their path finished and declassified? And there are too many such distortions.
      I would like to add only one thing. The Su-75 project, if not a dummy, may well repeat the success of the F-16, even without preliminary sales, as was the case with the penguin.
      But for this you need to do a lot of professional work.
      But I do not believe that we are ready to do this work. There are too many people in Rostec and the government who care about aviation.


      Can not.
      Just in fact.
      Nobody will change the entire concept of the Air Force, its regulations and standards, training of pilots and technicians, missile and bomb load and many other things.
      It's easier to burn everything and everyone in the Air Force, and rebuild / learn ...
      And these are colossal costs.
      And there are not enough countries in the world to repeat at least a quarter of the F-16.

      Even the Warsaw Pact countries, which have deserted to NATO, do everything very slowly, spending decades on updating standards.
      1. yehat2
        yehat2 23 July 2021 14: 39
        -1
        Quote: SovAr238A
        And there are not enough countries in the world to repeat at least a quarter of the F-16.

        f16 released 5k (rough)
        a quarter - this is roughly 1200.
        Now by country. Hindus need at least 400, Japan is interested, if they are sold, at least 150 pieces will work out, our Air Force - very conditionally 250, Eastern Europe - conditionally 50. It turns out
        400 + 150 + 250 + 50 = 850 pieces - literally demand from the summer.
        And if the plane turns out like a moment-21, then 1200 is not a problem either. The main thing is to do it quickly, and not to test it for 15 years.
  • Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 23 July 2021 12: 47
    0
    Quote: Iskazi
    The author in his healthy skepticism is absolutely right ..., this is the Russian Federation, baby

    Well, in general, I'm right. I hope that the engine will be finished in 10 years of development. Of course, the price will not be like that. God forbid, it will meet 50-60
  • SOF
    SOF 23 July 2021 14: 37
    0
    Quote: Iskazi
    absolutely right ....

    ..... but you can, breaking away from ..... the lamentations of all the experts .... read what really experts write .... the expert significance of which has long been known and is not questioned .......
    ========================
    Fighterbomber.
    Today in 12: 46
    I understand that the photos of the Su-75 have already bored everyone, but you have not seen such.
    Let's walk around the plane.
    This plane is single. But they promise to cut another two-man horse. In this case, there should be no problems with training flight personnel.
    Plus, they want to cut another ship and unmanned horse.
    In the cockpit, the main observation monitor is one huge. The indication is similar to that of the Su-35 (well, we can assume that it is also on the Su-57). The minimum of consoles in the cockpit means that all control of the aircraft systems is carried out from the monitors and the system console on the right. There are no mechanical buttons on the displays, which, as it were, hints to us that the displays are touch-sensitive, completely or not - xs. I don't know how clickable they are in chevrette and winter gloves, but I think this issue has been resolved or will be resolved.
    I did not find a duplicate (backup) monitor, perhaps the upper touchscreen monitor will play its role, but I did not see the corresponding button on it. It will be very sad without a backup.
    The failure display is reduced to 4 lamps. Everything else is again on the display.
    The chair is the coolest that is in service - K-36D5 with dual-mode heating of the ass and a variable backrest tilt.
    The refueling control panel is present, the boom was hidden in front to the left of the cockpit, no surprises.
    The RUS is standard, the "Maneuver" button is present, so there really is a UHT.
    From the new - there is a toggle switch for the electric adjustment of the pedals for the height of the pilot. And the temperature control of the suit was added. Most likely we are talking about the temperature of the IMSC. Probably blowing cold into the belly will be somehow different. Brrr ...

    Signs "radiation" on both sides of the half-wing transparently hints that there are either EW jamming antennas or locator antennas.
    BANO diode.
    The engine looks like some kind of modification of the AL-41. OBT is implemented here clearly somehow differently than on its predecessors. And more like the OVT MiG.
    There are also external suspension points. I counted two. Accordingly, in addition to weapons, PTBs can also be suspended on them. By the way, judging by the size of the largest inner-fuselage compartment of the PTB, it will also fit there normally.
    But what kind of things were placed between the tail and the nozzle of the motor (the word trigger), I will not tell you yet.

    In general, my horse caused purely positive emotions.
    Hope it takes off.
    Sukhovtsy are handsome! Where to send Courvoisier, write the address!
    =================
    ..... punctuation and spelling of the author - unchanged ..................
    1. SOF
      SOF 23 July 2021 15: 59
      0
      ... and by the way, it will be very interesting to look at all the experts ... when this non-mock-up ... will take off and take off in the foreseeable future ... wink
  • Alexey LK
    Alexey LK 28 July 2021 19: 35
    0
    The author, in his healthy skepticism, is absolutely right

    Do not confuse healthy skepticism with sick all-prophecy!
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 04: 27
    -12%
    What kind of experience? Well layout and layout, so what? A real plane may even be stupidly unpainted, and no one in their right mind will drag it to the exhibition. And in order to lift it into the sky by the stated time, one painting will not be enough, all sorts of hatches, panels, brake parachutes (parachute) and wiring are needed. So we didn’t flood the unfinished plane to the exhibition and did the right thing.
    And as for the Armata, the author is generally past the checkout, 20 pieces are already there, the next deliveries are scheduled for 22 years. If only to say beautifully.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 22 July 2021 04: 59
      -1
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      What kind of experience? Well layout and layout, so what?

      And this is from the series: "Your expectations are your problems." All adequate people understand that this is a mock-up, the rest are trying to pass off the expected for reality. These are their problems, no one promised a flight prototype before 2023.
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      And about Armata, the author is generally past the checkout

      This is yes. Various projects have been completed. Armata is not at all clear what. A tank without meaning and clear advantages. On the contrary, the Su-75 is clear, the concept is clear, the market is clear, and it already exists. There is no need to explain what LTS is, the largest class of fighters.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 05: 05
        -10%
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        This is yes. Various projects have been completed. Armata is not at all clear what. A tank without meaning and clear advantages.
        Armata is a tank, a tank with a huge potential for modernization, a tank designed to replace the completely obsolete T-72 and its derivative T-90, which have already exhausted their modernization potential due to weight restrictions.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 22 July 2021 05: 25
          +4
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          designed to replace the finally obsolete T-72 and its derivative T-90

          Who told you that? That's the joke that cannot replace, a completely different class of technology. Add yes, replace no.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 05: 28
            +2
            Who told you THIS?
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            a completely different class of technology.



            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            Add yes, replace no.
            Rather lead, and then replace yourself, or wait for the replacement with something else, such as drones.
            1. faiver
              faiver 22 July 2021 09: 02
              0
              and then replace yourself
              - It's funny, in case of war, will you put the reservist on the T-62 in the armature?
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 09: 08
                +1
                Quote: faiver
                - It's funny, in case of war, will you put the reservist on the T-62 in the armature?

                Before you hesitate, first think about the age of the T-62, and then what he will do in at least the T-72, let alone the T-90.
                1. faiver
                  faiver 22 July 2021 09: 11
                  -2
                  about the age of the T-62
                  - in the early 2000s, there were still places ... hi
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 09: 17
                    +4
                    Quote: faiver
                    in the early 2000s there were still places ...

                    Now in some places the tankers are at least forty, and the T-62 is only in Syria in marketable quantities and sane. hi
                    Are there any objections to the T-72 and T-90?
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 22 July 2021 12: 37
                      +7
                      In 2008, in the conflict with Georgia, on our side, it was the T-62s that fought. yes
                      And we did a pretty good job.
                      In the Russian Federation in service and at storage bases up to 10 T-000, and not less than 72 T-4000. For the most part, with an unused resource. What, to junk?
                      It is very correct that they dragged them to modernization. Like the BMP-2.
                      And even the BMP-1.
                      In a war of tanks and other armored vehicles, you need a LOT in order to quickly replenish losses and deploy reserves.
                      And the war is already inevitable.
                      And this is not our choice.
                      1. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 13: 54
                        +3
                        Quote: bayard
                        In 2008, in the conflict with Georgia, on our side, it was the T-62s that fought. yes
                        And we did a pretty good job.
                        Only now is 2021, and there is definitely less T-62 in the country than it was at that time.

                        Quote: bayard
                        In the Russian Federation in service and at storage bases up to 10 T-000, and not less than 72 T-4000. For the most part, with an unused resource. What, to junk?
                        I don’t need to ascribe stupidity to me about junk, but the T-72s have reached the limit of modernization, and the T-90ms is an ultimatum, more powerful than which on the basis of the T-72 can no longer be created.
                        Quote: bayard
                        It is very correct that they dragged them to modernization.
                        Where do you see that I deny the need for modernization? The T-72 needs to be brought up to the maximum possible level, it's just that it has already been reached, that's all, but the Armata has slipped through this level without straining.

                        Quote: bayard
                        And the war is already inevitable.
                        And this is not our choice.
                        "Don't be offended, but I'll tell you one smart thing .." There is a war of strife, and if there is, and most importantly, the readiness of the Russian leadership to use nuclear weapons, there will be no mass invasion, and here an important role will be played by protected, powerful and "situationally aware "" Armata ".
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 22 July 2021 14: 57
                        +4
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        but the T-72s have reached the limit of modernization, and the T-90ms is an ultimatum, more powerful than which on the basis of the T-72 can no longer be created.

                        And the fact that at the end of the Union was made and tested a version of the T-80 with 152 mm. tool, how's that? This is the ultimate form. lol
                        I don't see much value in the 125 mm Armata. gun, and the T-95, instead of which they began to torment the "Armata" such (152 mm.) The gun had. And THIS was an ultimatum.
                        In the meantime, instead of one T-14, you can buy 2 T-90 or 4 - 5 T-72V3M, they will be purchased. And if you buy a T-14 in its current form in your troops, then a limited batch for a seed for a foreign customer. And for yourself it is worth doing a more correct one - the ultimatum version with 152 mm. These can be purchased safely.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        "Don't be offended, but I'll tell you one smart thing

                        All tanks in service have reliable protection against weapons of mass destruction. And the KAZ installation (and they are already installed on the T-72V3) will increase the survivability of these tanks almost to the level of the "Armata". But there will be a lot of them.
                        And "Armat" is always not enough. For the roads.
                      3. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 15: 58
                        +2
                        Quote: bayard
                        And the fact that at the end of the Union was made and tested a version of the T-80 with 152 mm. tool, how's that? This is the ultimate form.
                        This is a fairy tale, and not a form, so that a 6 mm turret and a sane ammo rack would be installed on the 80-wheeled chassis of the T-152, while maintaining protection and mobility, I'm not even going to look for this nonsense.
                        Quote: bayard
                        I don't see much value in the 125 mm Armata. gun, and the T-95, instead of which they began to torment the "Armata" such (152 mm.) The gun had. And THIS was an ultimatum.
                        Armata is painlessly altered to fit 152 mm, the weight reserve and layout allow, either from scratch, or during modernization. Now I don't see much sense in driving from 152 mm, tk. 125 mm Armata is not the same as 125 T-90, if you know what I mean.

                        Quote: bayard
                        In the meantime, instead of one T-14, you can buy 2 T-90 or 4 - 5 T-72V3M, they will be purchased.
                        I do not think this is correct, it is imperative to modernize the existing tanks, but purchases of new old ones after entering the T-14 stream should be stopped.

                        Quote: bayard
                        And if you buy a T-14 in its existing form in your troops, then a limited batch for a seed for a foreign customer
                        That's exactly 125 mm on the Armata and there is a seed, only for the continuation of the purchase of T-90 by foreign customers, it seems to me.

                        Quote: bayard
                        All tanks in service have reliable protection against weapons of mass destruction. And the KAZ installation (and they are already installed on the T-72V3) will increase the survivability of these tanks almost to the level of the "Armata". But there will be a lot of them.
                        About the weapons of mass destruction smiled, and the T-55 can be considered modern, with all due respect to the T-55. And KAZ T-72 and T-90 are no match for Armatovskiy, and BOPS will not hold even in theory, but this is not the main thing, "almost to the level" should include the level of armor protection and the level of visibility that is not even close even on the T-90MS. So the cost of the Armata is justified one hundred percent and even now it is impossible to jump to its level, Armata, the level of even the T-90.
                      4. bayard
                        bayard 22 July 2021 17: 09
                        -1
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        This is a fairy tale, and not a form, so that a 6 mm turret and a sane ammo rack would be installed on the 80-wheeled chassis of the T-152, while maintaining protection and mobility, I'm not even going to look for this nonsense.

                        Yes, the same turret was there, slightly adapted, the BC is smaller, of course, and the same armor protection. And the T-80 chassis was the best of all then available tank, therefore it was on it that gun mounts and special high-loaded platforms were made. The T-14 chassis based on the T-80 was sculpted.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Now I don't see much sense in driving from 152 mm, tk. 125 mm Armata is not the same as 125 T-90, if you know what I mean.

                        Are you talking about "long shells" with a "crowbar"? And why then on the T-90SM a tower niche? Exactly for such shells.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I do not think this is correct, it is imperative to modernize the existing tanks, but purchases of new old ones after entering the T-14 stream should be stopped.

                        And it seems to me that the modernized MBT will be in service for a long time, and the T-90SM is good and optimal (it is he who continues to be chosen, despite the proposed "Armata"), and on the basis of the "Armata" (platform) it is necessary to make a heavy tank with an "ultimatum "caliber and a number of special vehicles (ACS based on the T-15 for the" Coalition "would be quite harmonious, like the actual heavy infantry fighting vehicle itself). And it is the synergy of MBT and heavy "ultimatum" tanks that will provide the necessary combat power and flexibility to armored forces.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        So the cost of the Armata is justified one hundred percent and even now it is impossible to jump to its level, Armata, the level of even the T-90.

                        Well, in the troops it is still not there, but how it will show itself in military operation - time will tell. Arm such a separate regiment or brigade and look for a couple of years. And there it will be seen. In the meantime, the "Armata" is like the KV-1 in 1941 - the security is high, and the cannon is like that of the T-34. So while the Soviet heavy tank had not matured to the IS-2, everything was somehow inferior. And he grew up - everyone said "hoo", "This is the perfect combination."
                      5. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 03: 33
                        +1
                        Quote: bayard
                        Yes, the same turret was there, slightly adapted, the BC is smaller, of course, and the same armor protection.
                        There was no ammo rack at all, the ammo rack was not even installed, what kind of tank was it? What I wrote about.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The T-14 chassis based on the T-80 was sculpted.
                        Very strong on the basis, in fact, only the rollers and took.

                        Quote: bayard
                        Are you talking about "long shells" with a "crowbar"? And why then on the T-90SM a tower niche? Exactly for such shells.
                        This is ridiculous, a niche for an additional BC does not matter at all, BOPS or OF, or rather, this is a part of the BC that was previously crammed wherever possible in the fighting compartment. And this part is reloaded into the machine gun by the handles of the crew.

                        Quote: bayard
                        And it seems to me that the upgraded MBT will be in service for a long time, and the T-90SM is good and optimal.
                        And I am sure of this, but when entering the "Armata" stream, funds must be transferred to it. Well, maybe, I agree in part, to keep the production of the T-90 just for a foreign customer.

                        Quote: bayard
                        And it is the synergy of MBT and heavy "ultimatum" tanks that will provide the necessary combat power and flexibility to armored forces.
                        "Synergy" in the army is achieved in many respects by unification, and this unification will be there only in terms of fuel.

                        Quote: bayard
                        In the meantime, the "Armata" is like the KV-1 in 1941 - the security is high, and the cannon is like that of the T-34.
                        Complete garbage, even a cannon, not to mention mobility and visibility. In addition to armor and a cannon, the KV was inferior to the T-34 in everything, while the Armata, unfortunately, surpasses the modern MBT in everything, and the price.
                      6. bayard
                        bayard 23 July 2021 04: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        "Synergy" in the army is achieved in many respects by unification, and this unification will be there only in terms of fuel.

                        Do you propose for the sake of this fix idea to rebuild and rearm ALL armored forces? belay
                        With the first self-propelled guns on its chassis?
                        Engineering vehicles?
                        Throw out the entire huge stock of available and create new stocks of spare parts?
                        To retrain all personnel and technical staff?
                        ... I see synergy not in the unification of heavy tanks and MBT, but in their strengthening of attacking units and formations during assault operations .. But at the same time, special separate heavy tank brigades for special purposes should be formed, with their own parks, workshops, spare parts depots. These heavy tank units / formations should be strengthened by heavy BMP T-15, and by engineering vehicles based on "Armata". But tanks with 152 mm. cannon.
                        There may be one or two T-14 battalions with 125 mm in such a brigade. cannon as an anti-tank squad of forces. That is, the composition should include anti-tank and heavy assault battalions on tanks with one platform.
                        But there can be several hundred such tanks, and there are 4-5 such brigades for each district as a special reserve.
                        Any other decision will be ruinous in money and undermine the defense capability by long-term retraining and mastering of new technology.
                      7. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 04: 48
                        0
                        Quote: bayard
                        Do you propose for the sake of this fix idea to rebuild and rearm ALL armored forces? belay
                        With the first self-propelled guns on its chassis?
                        Engineering vehicles?
                        Throw out the entire huge stock of available and create new stocks of spare parts?
                        To retrain all personnel and technical staff?
                        Throw out the entire huge stock of available and create new stocks of spare parts?
                        To retrain all personnel and technical staff?
                        No need to juggle, the unification is engines, shells, suspension, and the same shots to the KAZ. And once again, there is no need to attribute nonsense to ME about throwing out, melting, sawing. Upgraded tanks can and should be used, so for this business and use the reserves. I, once again, am against the continuation of the RELEASE of already obsolete tanks, but upon entering the stream of Armata.

                        Quote: bayard
                        ... I see synergy not in the unification of heavy tanks and MBT, but in their strengthening of attacking units and formations during assault operations ..
                        You do not see the obvious, the "Armata" is not a heavy tank, but an MBT, the T-14 only in terms of weight to the "partners" Main battle tanks, their mother.

                        Quote: bayard
                        But tanks with 152 mm. cannon.
                        There may be one or two T-14 battalions with 125 mm in such a brigade. cannon as an anti-tank squad
                        PC, you are already starting up the unification of the beard.
                        By the way, the main price tag is given by electronics, so it makes sense to produce somewhat depleted T-14s at a cheaper price, a mobilization option. And then, if necessary, it will be much easier to catch up to the level of the main tank.
                    2. Konnick
                      Konnick 23 July 2021 05: 35
                      0
                      In addition to armor and a gun, the KV was inferior to the T-34 in everything,

                      What nonsense. I don't even want to deny it. Such impression is the author of the commentary .... from Nizhny Tagil.
                    3. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 05: 47
                      0
                      Quote: Konnick
                      What nonsense. I don't even want to deny it. Such impression is the author of the commentary .... from Nizhny Tagil.

                      Mobility, weight and maintainability for a person who considers the armor of the T-14 tower to be weaker than that of the T-90MS because of the casing, these are completely empty words that definitely do not say anything and give out an eccentric in it, only with a different letter.
                  2. yehat2
                    yehat2 23 July 2021 11: 42
                    +1
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    In addition to armor and a cannon, the KV was inferior to the T-34 in everything.

                    you seem to be very bad at the matter. The Kv-1 has a radically more convenient turret, much better observation devices, the gun, by the way, is the same in caliber, but the T34 and Kv-1 did not always have the same gun models.
                    Finally, the shoulder strap of the tower made it possible to supply more powerful weapons to the kv-1, which is why kv-2, kv-122, kv-85, etc. appeared.
                    a connoisseur will list a couple of dozen advantages of the KV-1 in front of the T-34 samples of 41 years old.
                  3. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 14: 14
                    0
                    Quote: yehat2
                    it looks like you are very bad at the matter.

                    Enough to know that the tower on the KV-1 was designed a little less shamefully than on the T-34, and that due to the greater experience of the LKZ designers and lower weight requirements, that the observation devices were the same as on the T- 34, except for the periscopes along the edges of the tower, which were a little confusing to the commander.
                    It is enough to know that the KV-2 did not show itself in the Great Patriotic War, and were lost due to even worse cross-country ability than the KV and in fact were self-propelled guns with an exorbitantly high gun position, just because of the pursuit.
                    It is enough, unlike you, to remember the KV-1S, which was actually a different tank, with a modified hull and a radically redesigned turret, this tank was already superior to the T-34, but it was already the end of 1942.
                    And only an 85 mm cannon was installed on this tank, and not on the KV-1, and even then it was unsuccessful, because the turret was still not enough and the IC had to be created.
                    So I know and understand something.
                  4. yehat2
                    yehat2 23 July 2021 14: 16
                    0
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    was designed a little less shameful than the T-34

                    you think you are writing. You call a tank a shame, which had no equal in the world for 2 whole years, until the Germans t4 seriously modernized.
                  5. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 14: 18
                    0
                    Quote: yehat2
                    you think you are writing. You call a tank a shame, which had no equal in the world for 2 whole years, until the Germans t4 seriously modernized.

                    Let's not juggle:
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    the tower on the KV-1 was designed a little less shameful
                    I call the design of the tower shameful.
                  6. yehat2
                    yehat2 23 July 2021 22: 58
                    0
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    I call the design of the tower shameful.

                    before saying this, just compare the number of engineers employed in the topic.
                    At one MAN plant in Germany, there were more engineers working on tanks than in the entire USSR. To be honest, I am generally amazed how our team managed to integrate the experience from 4 different machines into the operating T-34 in just 2-2.5 years. And you call this a shame?
                    With heavy tanks, the story is the same - with the help of minuscule engineers, just half a year after the Finnish company prepares a KV-1 prototype from SM and immediately goes into production ...
                    for comparison, the project that led to the tiger took 7 years to develop!
                    You just don't understand that the race was unequal.
                    In my opinion, the very appearance of the T34, KV-1 and, to some extent, even the T-28 is a real miracle. Not the machines themselves, but the terms for which the projects were implemented.
                  7. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 24 July 2021 04: 46
                    0
                    Quote: yehat2
                    You just don't understand that the race was unequal.

                    Now you are also dragging the race, it would be better if the KV-1S was dragged in due time.

                    Quote: yehat2
                    To be honest, I am generally amazed how our team managed to integrate the experience from 4 different machines into the operating T-34 in just 2-2.5 years.
                    In the tower, the experience of the T-26 and BT-5-7 was completely ignored. Personally, I am amazed at this.

                    Quote: yehat2
                    In my opinion, the very appearance of the T34, KV-1 and, to some extent, even the T-28 is a real miracle.
                    And yet the experience of the T-28 was ignored, a really very successful tank, taking into account the available technologies.
                    And in general, stop wringing your hands at the sight of the words "shameful design", the ergonomics of the T-34 tower, issue. 39-40 years does not stand up to criticism, this is a fact and we are not talking about crampedness, but about the terrible location of the optics, but the powerful weapon, the mobility of the tank and the armor more than compensated for this deficiency. And the KV-1, in addition to armor and another tanker (who, moreover, was not a loader at all, but an assistant to a mechanized driver), was much slower, much heavier and had less reliability, which I wrote about.
                    So the words, not yours, but the cause of the dispute:
                    Quote: bayard
                    In the meantime, the "Armata" is like the KV-1 in 1941 - the security is high, and the cannon is like that of the T-34.
                    I consider it unfair to the "Armata", the KV was inferior in aggregate to the T-34, and the "Armata" surpasses both in aggregate and individually the T-90ms, except for the price, of course.
                  8. yehat2
                    yehat2 25 July 2021 21: 59
                    0
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    In the tower, the experience of the T-26 and BT-5-7 was completely ignored. Personally, I am amazed at this.

                    because you don't understand what prototypes you used for the project.
                  9. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 26 July 2021 16: 43
                    0
                    Quote: yehat2
                    because you don't understand what prototypes you used for the project.
                    Something tells me that I understand more about the pre-war tank building of the USSR than you do. If only because you ignored the T-28, and it was released by the Kharkovites.
                  10. yehat2
                    yehat2 27 July 2021 11: 34
                    0
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    because you ignored the T-28, and the Kharkovites released it.

                    t34 is very different from t28 - tower, suspension, armor, layout - everything else. Are you saying that the T28 is a prototype of the T34?
                    In addition, if you look closely, t34 has taken a few steps back in comparison with t28.
                  11. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 27 July 2021 13: 47
                    0
                    Quote: yehat2
                    t34 is very different from t28 - tower, suspension, armor, layout - everything else. Are you saying that the T28 is a prototype of the T34?
                    What the hell is this? Wipe your eyes, it was you who invented some prototypes of the T-34 (although there was nothing but the A-32), and I argue that when creating the T-34, they did not give a damn about the successful solutions of the T-26, BT-5-7 and T-28.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    In the tower, the experience of the T-26 and BT-5-7 was completely ignored. Personally, I am amazed at this.

                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    And yet the experience of the T-28 was ignored, a really very successful tank, taking into account the available technologies.

                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    ergonomics of the T-34 tower 39-40 years does not stand up to criticism, this is a fact and we are not talking about crampedness, but about the terrible location of the optics
  • SovAr238A
    SovAr238A 22 July 2021 19: 18
    +2
    Quote: bayard
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    but the T-72s have reached the limit of modernization, and the T-90ms is an ultimatum, more powerful than which on the basis of the T-72 can no longer be created.

    And the fact that at the end of the Union was made and tested a version of the T-80 with 152 mm. tool, how's that? This is the ultimate form. lol
    I don't see much value in the 125 mm Armata. gun, and the T-95, instead of which they began to torment the "Armata" such (152 mm.) The gun had. And THIS was an ultimatum.
    In the meantime, instead of one T-14, you can buy 2 T-90 or 4 - 5 T-72V3M, they will be purchased. And if you buy a T-14 in its current form in your troops, then a limited batch for a seed for a foreign customer. And for yourself it is worth doing a more correct one - the ultimatum version with 152 mm. These can be purchased safely.
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    "Don't be offended, but I'll tell you one smart thing

    All tanks in service have reliable protection against weapons of mass destruction. And the KAZ installation (and they are already installed on the T-72V3) will increase the survivability of these tanks almost to the level of the "Armata". But there will be a lot of them.
    And "Armat" is always not enough. For the roads.

    It's not just about the cannon and its caliber ...
    Any hit into a modern tank with a projectile of 100mm or more leads to its withdrawal from the battle.
    I'm not talking about destruction. It is in battle for the second time.
    In battle, the enemy's withdrawal from the battle is primary.

    And this is where questions arise.
    The qualities of the barrel itself.
    Range.
    Targeting at this range ....
    Can you implement a 125mm rifled tank gun, a 20cm KVO at a range of 3km? Honor and praise to you. And you won't need 152mm.
    You just use materials science, processing, a lot of electronics to ensure a hit from the first shot for 3 km with a quo of 20 cm. And that's all.
    Just make sure.
    Well, the means of detecting the enemy at such distances.
    And all the empty dust - must fly off ...
  • Konnick
    Konnick 22 July 2021 19: 46
    0
    Any hit into a modern tank with a projectile of 100mm or more leads to its withdrawal from the battle.

    And in the case of Armata, hitting an uninhabited turret with a smaller caliber will lead to an exit from the battle, where only the gun is covered with real armor, and the rest, including the sighting system, is covered only by an anti-splinter casing. In addition, there is a danger of blocking the crew in the armored capsule, which does not have a lower emergency exit, by the remnants of this casing.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 23 July 2021 00: 19
    0
    I will add for the fans of Armata a photo of the splinter casing of the tower

  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 03: 51
    +1
    Quote: Konnick
    hitting an uninhabited turret with a smaller caliber will lead to an exit from the battle, where only the gun is covered with real armor, and the rest, including the sighting system, is covered only by an anti-splinter casing.

    This is complete nonsense, all the elements of the tank that are covered with armor on conventional tanks are covered with full-fledged armor and on the "Armata", the casing provides a decrease in the radar signature, covers the elements that are not covered at all on old tanks, and only after that it also gives additional protection to the tower, in including from the roof-breakers which are generally not present on old tanks.
    And the photo that you have given below simply shows the armature-tower layout of the "Armata" and demonstrates the usual normal armoring of the sight head, which I wrote about.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 23 July 2021 05: 27
    0
    This is complete nonsense, all the elements of the tank that are covered with armor on conventional tanks are covered with full-fledged armor and on the "Armata", the casing provides a decrease in the radar signature, covers the elements that are not covered at all on old tanks, and only after that it also gives additional protection to the tower, in including from the roof-breakers which are generally not present on old tanks.

    Wishful thinking. If everything you fantasized about was, then the Armata tower would have the same dimensions as the T-90SM.
    And as they say, "where are your proofs", sheer unfounded words.


    This is a screenshot from the site https://voinskayachast.net/vooruzhenie/tanki/tank-t-14-armata-obzor-i-texnicheskie-xarakteristiki
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 05: 41
    +1
    Quote: Konnick
    Wishful thinking. If everything you fantasized about was, then the Armata tower would have the same dimensions as the T-90SM.
    If you only a little bit understood what you are writing about, then the words "monitors-tower arrangement" for you would not be an empty phrase. And the T-14 tower is even larger than the T-90 tower, but in height and length, and a slightly smaller width is due to a much smaller frontal projection with this layout than on a traditional tower.
    But since you seem to be poorly versed in words at all, then you brought such a phrase
    Tank turret armor is made in the form of two layers - main armor and an anti-splinter casing. Many instruments and sensors are located in the interlayer space .. ..At the same time he jamming the radar signal, which reduces the effectiveness of radar and homing ATGM
    Which in meaning is absolutely similar to my words.

    Quote: Konnick
    all elements of the tank that are covered with armor on conventional tanks are covered with full-fledged armor and on the "Armata", the casing provides reduction of radar signature, covers elements which are not covered at all on old tanks
  • yehat2
    yehat2 25 July 2021 22: 01
    0
    Quote: Konnick
    where only the weapon is covered with real armor

    and what, there is at least one tank where the sighting complex is covered better?
    there are some samples that can withstand something with a caliber of 15-20mm, but not more.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 26 July 2021 04: 14
    0
    some samples that can withstand something of 15-20mm caliber, but not more.

    There are no such warheads for observation and aiming devices that can withstand the impact of such calibers, so work is underway to minimize warheads. And on the Armata, it turned out that not only the warheads are vulnerable, but everything that makes up the optical devices, which are on ordinary tanks under the cover of tower armor.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 26 July 2021 11: 41
    0
    Quote: Konnick
    but also everything that consists of

    you find fault with the little things, forgetting that Armata is a cheaper version of a normal prototype.
    what else did you want? Think of it as just another T72 that will always be far from the best.
  • bayard
    bayard 22 July 2021 22: 45
    0
    Quote: SovAr238A
    It's not just about the cannon and its caliber ...
    Any hit into a modern tank with a projectile of 100mm or more leads to its withdrawal from the battle.
    I'm not talking about destruction. It is in battle for the second time.
    In battle, the enemy's withdrawal from the battle is primary.

    When the IS-2 heavy tank was created during WWII, the choice of the 122 mm gun. was not for the sake of duels with enemy tanks, for this just a faster-firing gun was needed. It was an assault tank for suppressing highly protected enemy firing points and destroying their fortifications. Fighting enemy tanks was an option.
    So is a heavy assault tank with a 152 mm gun. is needed not so much for the sake of destroying enemy tanks at maximum range (for this there is an ATGM for conventional MBTs), but for the sake of suppressing enemy fire points detected during the battle and destroying fortifications and simply buildings in which the enemy took refuge. The difference is a high-explosive projectile 152 mm. from 125 mm. is that when a 125 mm MBT shell hits a building (house). , it makes a hole with a diameter of up to 1 m and, at best, takes out a couple of internal bulkheads. And when 152 mm gets into the building. shell, then the entire entrance often collapses. A heavy assault tank must have such a weapon. And such a tank has a special role in battle - fire cover and support for assault infantry groups. Best paired with "Terminators" - which is time to rename BMPP (Infantry Support Fighting Vehicle). When BMPP suppresses firing points and targets behind cover, and heavy assault tanks demolish these cover, opening the way for the infantry. For the high-explosive power of MBT guns is far from always enough for this.
    It was for such purposes that the ISU-152 was created at the end of the war. For the power of 122 mm. the IS-2 projectile was not always enough.
    And to destroy the enemy's tank with a "crowbar" is enough and 125 mm. guns with good ballistics and muzzle velocity. I agree with this completely.
    And for the storming of German cities with strong houses, the ISU-152 was nevertheless created. hi
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 23 July 2021 03: 20
    0
    Quote: SovAr238A
    Can you implement a 125mm rifled tank gun, a 20cm KVO at a range of 3km? Honor and praise to you. And you won't need 152mm.
    The rifled cannon on the move rejects the possibility of using BOPS in the first place, and secondly, I don’t remember such guns at all, not tank guns, for sure.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 23 July 2021 11: 37
    +2
    Quote: bayard
    I see no special value in "Armata"

    but I see. Instead of placing several hundred more tanks on our border, NATO is forced in a hurry (victims of its own propaganda about superiority) to develop new tanks, spending more ineffectively more funds. Even if Armata does not enter the troops in large numbers, it has already completed another strategic task of depleting the armored forces in the west.
    This is what the Americans used to troll the Soviet Union for a long time, forcing them to spend incomparable amounts.
    I myself am skeptical about the alteration of t95 into t14, but get it right - you need to evaluate the project as a whole. Finally, it is easier to debug new tank equipment on such tanks, which will also play a role more than once.
  • bayard
    bayard 23 July 2021 14: 14
    +1
    Quote: yehat2
    but I see. Instead of placing several hundred more tanks on our border, NATO is forced in a hurry (victims of its own propaganda about superiority) to develop new tanks, spending more ineffectively more funds.

    Now imagine that the Armata with a 152 mm gun is being adopted. smile
    Presented?
    And how many times more perturbations and expenditures will this cause in the enemy's camp?
    The T-95 was precisely the ultimate tank. To repeat this and to resist this was ... very difficult.
    That's why he was killed.
    By the hands of Medvedev - then the "supreme commander-in-chief and president" of our long-suffering country.

    But rumors that 152 mm. they are still trying to fit the gun on the T-14 ... somewhat encouraging.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 23 July 2021 14: 17
    0
    Quote: bayard
    And how many times more perturbations and expenditures will this cause in the enemy's camp?

    not at any time. It's just a different specification.
  • Intruder
    Intruder 22 July 2021 19: 54
    0
    Like the BMP-2.
    And even the BMP-1.
    Hmm, a very controversial statement !? Sometimes they are dragged from poverty to modernization, this has happened in different, not very rich countries already .., precisely when finances sing romances!
  • bayard
    bayard 22 July 2021 23: 03
    +3
    These BMPs have bulletproof armor, but they are floating and very well armed even for today (meaning modernized versions). For forcing water barriers right off the bat and seizing a bridgehead is the very tool. Moreover, it is massive. In other cases, it is just right to use them as armored personnel carriers (delivery of infantry to the front line and their evacuation under enemy fire), because in an open battle they have little chance of surviving. But a lot of them are needed for the war. And there are a lot of them in stock. In case of mobilization, we have something to land the mobilized infantry on.
    But of course new ones are needed. BMP-3M "Dragoon" is the best that the Russian military-industrial complex can offer today.
  • Intruder
    Intruder 23 July 2021 18: 47
    +2
    In other cases, it is just right to use them as armored personnel carriers (delivery of infantry to the front line and their evacuation under enemy fire)
    You contradict yourself, but the point is !?
    With this:
    These BMPs have bulletproof armor

    And use, on:
    delivery of infantry to the front line and their evacuation under enemy fire
    under fire of ATGM complexes with ATGM (s) different, currently on every hill, under a bush and roof of a high-rise building, in a residential area of ​​any town ... on the planet, so for example ... in the park from the old rusty CPV and truncated ... we arrived - only corpses in soot ... negative , so they began to call it ...: BMP (mass infantry grave), so that they would immediately burn the "boxes" with motorized riflemen and the crew! ??? Hmm., Interesting proposal ... repeat
  • bayard
    bayard 24 July 2021 00: 41
    0
    BMP - infantry fighting vehicle. By definition, it must participate in combat, accompany the infantry in battle, supporting them with fire. For this today, BMP-1 \ 2 are not suitable due to poor booking.
    BTR - armored infantry transporter to the front edge. Does not participate in the battle. Its task is to cover from shrapnel and stray bullets during transportation. In this capacity, to this day, motorbikes are used, and also as an ambulance. For this role, the BMP-1 \ 2 is quite suitable. Their armor is often supplemented and strengthened, but then they stop swimming and become less mobile. They are now suitable precisely as armored personnel carriers, in auxiliary directions and in rear units. And also when crossing water obstacles. For a long time already it is impossible to fight on such.
    Quote: bayard
    BMP-3M "Dragoon" - the best that the Russian military-industrial complex can offer today

    Reservation at the level of "Kurganets", the price is 4 times lower, the weapons are more powerful. And swims.
  • Intruder
    Intruder 24 July 2021 09: 32
    +2
    BMP-3M "Dragoon"

    Almost, a new version of the long-suffering BMP-3, from the last century (in 1987 it was adopted by the Soviet army) ...!?:
    - put a new engine:
    a version of the UTD-32 engine was used (four-stroke, with direct fuel injection, liquid cooling, multi-fuel, with a dry sump, with gas turbine supercharging) with a capacity of 816 hp.

    - changed the location / design of the landing ramp and the opening;
    - left the old main armament: 2A70 and 2A72;
    - not quite modern sighting systems, only for the Russian army, they are "fresh": panoramic day-night sights of the "Krechet" type;
    - Digital FCS (it is stated that: all-day, anti-jamming, with the possibility of automatic tracking of ground and air targets, allows you to shoot from closed positions.);
  • bayard
    bayard 24 July 2021 15: 08
    0
    Quote: Intruder
    BMP-3M "Dragoon"

    yes She is the most.
    Quote: Intruder
    816 hp

    This is a special feature, the thrust-to-weight ratio is huge, hence the mobility, speed, cross-country ability.
    The engine is exactly from the Kurganets, and it is in the nose again, providing additional protection and convenience for the landing force during transportation and disembarkation.
    Quote: Intruder
    - left the old main armament: 2A70 and 2A72;

    No one has come up with more powerful and versatile. There, and the size of the BC for a lovely sight.
    Quote: Intruder
    - not quite modern sighting systems, only for the Russian army, they are "fresh": panoramic day-night sights of the "Krechet" type;

    Normal complexes, something more perfect will appear, they will be replaced during modernization.
    Quote: Intruder
    - Digital FCS (it is stated that: all-day, anti-jamming, with the possibility of automatic tracking of ground and air targets, allows you to shoot from closed positions.);

    yes Yes !
    And she also has armor protection like the "Kurganets", when with hinged sides.
    At the moment, this is the uncompromisingly best BMP of the modern world in terms of the entire set of combat qualities and characteristics. It remains only to wait for her in the troops.
    And it is on its chassis that the best light tank of our time will turn out. "Sprut-SDM" based on BMD-4 is rather weak in armor and engine. For airborne landing, it is the very thing, but for the ground forces, a version of a light amphibious tank based on the BMP-3M "Dragoon" would not hurt. At the same time, its weight will not exceed 25 tons. Such an amphibious tank with protection at the Kurganets level and an MBT cannon, it would be nice to have at least a company in each division, and better - brigades. Tank.
  • faiver
    faiver 22 July 2021 13: 38
    +2
    Well, in fact, you have already been answered without me ... hi
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 22 July 2021 11: 13
    +12
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Before you hesitate, first think about the age of the T-62.


    South Ossetia, 2008. T-62 tanks from the 42nd mechanized infantry division. They began to be replaced with T-72s only after this war.
    I'll tell you more - among the reservists there are even those who served on the T-55. In the 18th pool, 10 years ago, they were in service. smile
    1. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 22 July 2021 19: 26
      0
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Before you hesitate, first think about the age of the T-62.


      South Ossetia, 2008. T-62 tanks from the 42nd mechanized infantry division. They began to be replaced with T-72s only after this war.
      I'll tell you more - among the reservists there are even those who served on the T-55. In the 18th pool, 10 years ago, they were in service. smile

      With the Georgians?
      Well yes. Only the T-62 there (in the south of the country) stood from the understanding that there was nothing equal there ...
      Where there are "other" tanks, there is no T-62 ...
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 23 July 2021 10: 49
        0
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Only the T-62 there (in the south of the country) stood from the understanding that there was nothing equal there ...

        It was. And not only equal, but superior.

        T-72 SIM-1. Upgraded with the help of Israel T-72.
        And it was with this that our T-62 had to fight, and some of the tanks did not even have "Ilyich's eyebrows", not to mention the DZ. Journalists, pomnitsa, wrote a lot about the heroism of our tankers, who were forced to resist modern Georgian tanks on ancient T-62s.
        We were very lucky that the enemy was the Georgians.

        PMSM, there were three reasons for arming the 42nd Mechanized Infantry Division of the T-62. Firstly, these tanks were quite enough to continue establishing constitutional order (although the native Defense Ministry shook the screens and armor on them - even tanks with "bald" turrets were running in Chechnya). Secondly, saving the resource of the T-72 - let them knock out the resource of old tanks. Thirdly, even if there is a big blaze there again, the militants will get old stuff.
        It's just that our strategists have forgotten that the 42nd Mechanized Infantry Division can be used outside Chechnya. But I had to.
        1. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 23 July 2021 13: 41
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA

          It was. And not only equal, but superior.


          Okay, thanks for the amendment.
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 22 July 2021 11: 18
    0
    Maybe then, so as not to get up twice, let's switch to halberds and other kladenets swords with maces?
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 12: 26
      +2
      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
      kladenets with maces?

      The mace is still in the trade, isn't it?
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 22 July 2021 05: 26
    +10
    Fiery cat, even in an interview, the designer directly says about the plane, that this is a ready-made PROTOTYPE? Why are you distorting the facts? You would only praise Turkish bullshit ...
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 22 July 2021 20: 05
      +3
      Fiery cat - even in an interview, the designer directly says about the plane, that this is a ready-made PROTOTYPE? M
      An interesting wonder, but as these guys in expensive suits say at the presentation, exactly (we have all the moves recorded ...) ???
      look, syudy:
      1. "the plane will fly ... in 2023 ..." 18:00;
      2. "... there is a sample in front of you ..." 18:02;
      3. a lot of verbal blizzard about not just ... a mock-up, not just a sample ... and something else, but the most important thing: "... completing, carrying out the entire complex of ground tests ..." 18:10 onwards ...;
      4. "in less than a year we will have completed static tests of this aircraft" 18:18 and on ...
      And this can be called a prototype, Lord - after all, there are still believers ..., rather, a mass-dimensional exhibition model !!!
      1. sds555
        sds555 24 July 2021 14: 42
        0
        Are you familiar with the abbreviation KNS and how does KNS differ from the layout?
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 24 July 2021 19: 49
          +1
          how does the CSS differ from the layout?
          Hmm, already interesting ... your vision !? Can you point out at least 10 differences? wink
          1. sds555
            sds555 24 July 2021 21: 04
            +1
            Take a look
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 24 July 2021 21: 21
              +1
              Take a look
              Looked, and then what !? You showed the diagram from the Sukhoi Design Bureau!
              Although, when I wrote about the mass-dimensional layout, I had in mind not only its exhibition functionality, but also:
              namely, to the means of simulating aircraft for carrying out ground (static) tests. The mock-up is formed from the basic elements that make up the zone of regular sections and mock-ups of additional structural elements, such as: a head fairing, an air intake and aerodynamic surfaces. The technical result consists in increasing the accuracy of reproduction of the overall and mass characteristics and the external shape of the simulated product, ensuring the manufacturability of manufacturing ...
              1. sds555
                sds555 24 July 2021 21: 27
                -1
                The mock-up does not pass complex ground (full-scale) tests, unlike the SPS, but it was the integrated ground stand that was presented dry, according to the information of the deputy chief designer, this SPS will pass All ground tests in less than a year
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 24 July 2021 21: 34
                  +1
                  The model does not pass complex ground (full-scale) tests
                  Now, it is possible and correct! by 2021, having 10 supercomputers in the Russian Federation and several specialized data centers, such as in Sarov, they decided to emulate virtual tests, although a little not quickly - after all, it took 4 years for it all ... in KK (Kalashnikov concern), now UAC has pulled up
  • bayard
    bayard 22 July 2021 12: 29
    +2
    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
    Armata is not at all clear what. A tank without meaning and clear advantages.

    "Armata" reminds me of something EBR (although it was designed as raiders - cruisers), etc. "Pobeda \ Peresvet" - huge, at a cost more expensive than peers' battleships, under-armed with strange speed characteristics (you can't run away from the battleship, you can't keep up with the cruiser), weakened ( compared to any battleship) armor, high-breasted ones are an excellent target.
    So the "Armata" - not having advantages in terms of the caliber and quality of the power supply unit (compared to the latest version of the T-90SM "Breakthrough"), costs 1,5 - 2 times more, the largest in size is much ...
    It would be justified with a more powerful cannon as a "special-purpose assault tank", for use for assault / breakout of especially fortified enemy positions.
    And with the usual 125 mm. gun, in the army and T-72V3 \ V3M, T-80BVM and T-90MS enough. It is cheaper by several times, mastered by the troops, spare parts are simply heaped up, there are no problems with maintenance and repair.
    And to adopt something ... prohibitively expensive, undeveloped, without a proper supply of spare parts ... here it will take a carriage for one mastering of time and money, and exploitation will come out in such amounts ... and the Ministry of Defense now does not hurt to supply everything necessary. .. to the officers to throw off?
    But the most important thing is combat effectiveness. 15% higher than the T-90SM? And at a price twice as high? And 4 - 5 times more expensive than the T-72B3?
    - "Nafig! We are buying T-72V3 \ V3M!" ...
    And the shown LFMI has prospects, and they are not bad.
    If it does take place.
    1. Alex777
      Alex777 22 July 2021 16: 14
      -3
      Hello colleague!
      Armata is a breakthrough tank. Aggression, as they say in the West. wink
      As soon as our people began to talk about him, so immediately the Germans and the French began to work on a new tank, spend money ...
      I completely agree with you about the modernization of the existing and maintenance of the quantity and stock for a "rainy day".
      But in the attacking order, the role of Armata is important and necessary.
      A little bit later. Until her time has come. hi
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 24 July 2021 21: 26
      +1
      and the Ministry of Defense now does not hurt something to supply everything necessary ... to the officers to fold?
      Well, earlier, in the 11-12 centuries, they came with their weapons and armor, or they used loans, from the bounty of the royal (royal) treasury, and then worked out in the process of battles, a couple of years (if you survived) and you are a glorified veteran of your campaigns monarch !?
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 22 July 2021 07: 06
    +11
    Well layout and layout, so what?
    So it will remain a mock-up. And to see in the government some patriots, which they call, let the prototype checkmite. That there are no Russian words left?
    As for the Armata. How many years have passed since the 2015 Parade? They promised 2020 tanks by 2030.
    1. Alex777
      Alex777 22 July 2021 16: 16
      -2
      They promised 2020 tanks by 2030.

      What year was it promised and how many changes in the world have happened since then?
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 22 July 2021 16: 30
        +3
        In 2015, the director of Uralvagonzavod Oleg Sienko said that the company received an order for the manufacture of 2300 copies of the T-14 until 2020, but in the event of a reduction in the military budget of the Russian Federation, the plan could be expanded until 2025.
        The changes are such that it is just right to increase, but on July 30, 2018, Deputy Prime Minister for Defense Industry Yuri Borisov said that the promising Russian T-14 Armata tank was "too expensive for bulk purchases." Therefore, instead of the latter, the modernization of the T-72 and T-90 in service will continue: “The Russian army does not feel a great need for Armata tanks, and current needs are covered by the modernization of the existing military equipment ... We have no special need for this, these models are enough expensive in relation to the existing ones "
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 22 July 2021 16: 37
          -2
          Everything is correct. In 2015. Then they just started to impose sanctions and different (no words) characters still laughed at them.
          There was no coronavirus yet, etc., etc.
          In addition, with the development of a new engine, a plug formed. Yes, such that the topic was simply closed. No result. It happens.
          At this stage, quantity is really needed.
          Rearmament of existing and deployment of new connections.
          When this is done, they will launch the "cherry on the cake". IMHO. hi
          1. Revival
            Revival 22 July 2021 19: 37
            0
            “Everything is correct. In 2015. Then they just started to impose sanctions and different (no words) characters still laughed at them.
            There was no coronavirus yet, etc., etc.
            In addition, with the development of a new engine, a plug formed. Yes, such that the topic was simply closed. No result. ".

            1) So the sanctions only help us and like an elephant grain, or not !?

            2) the story with the virus is already 2020! Did you stop at 1700 units of tanks because of him? After all, by 2020, 2300 pieces were promised!
            And, I realized, the plan was precisely in 2020, from 1 to 2300, the tank to make everything, and then the virus ...

            3) ah, plug with the engine ..
            How is that? When they promised that such a trifle was not taken into account?
            Or, for the first time in world history, the engine for a tank did not work out in the desired timeframe, it was impossible to predict this?
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 22 July 2021 19: 44
              -1
              And the Lord said: "... which of you is without sin, be the first to throw a stone at her ...".
      2. Intruder
        Intruder 22 July 2021 20: 18
        +2
        Well, by 2030 ... the Kalashnikov Concern will already start producing and not only him, something like ... this wink :




        series: "Storm-E", aka "Reaper", at the exhibition Army 2030; yes

        New Armata Light 2030 ... lol
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 24 July 2021 21: 29
      +1
      And to see in the government some patriots, which they call, let the prototype checkmite. That there are no Russian words left?
      Well, why is it so, there is also the name of the new logistics system - "Matryoshka" !? belay And how was it necessary !? wink Call the project "Phoenix" or "Petrel" ???
  • Konnick
    Konnick 22 July 2021 07: 48
    +20
    And as for the Armata, the author is generally past the checkout, 20 pieces are already there, the next deliveries are scheduled for 22 years. If only to say beautifully

    Keyword
    outlined

    How they sang praises before the February exhibition in Abu Dhabi and how abruptly they fell silent after. Armata has not yet been tested by shelling, and no one is in a hurry to buy a pig in a poke. We are very good at getting victorious reports - we have tightened another nut in the newest complex .... There is absolutely no critical attitude to what is happening in the official press. Aircraft MC-21, composite wings hip-hip hooray, and they need these wings, why are they only paying attention to them? And such wings are difficult to launch into a series, and what advantages do they provide? Corrosion resistance? Excessive strength? Do you need it? I do not remember any crash incidents due to the destruction of the wing.
    The message in Skomorokhov's article is correct ... some "Potemkin villages", the expression "Putin's projects" may soon appear.
    1. Alex777
      Alex777 22 July 2021 19: 47
      +1
      The message in Skomorokhov's article is correct ... some "Potemkin villages", the expression "Putin's projects" may soon appear.

      There is already an expression: "Putin cartoons". wink
      1. El Chuvachino
        El Chuvachino 23 July 2021 23: 45
        -3
        Well, they also sketched it here, both in the "article" and in the comments. Even get in and waste time on this nonsense laziness recourse
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 22 July 2021 20: 28
      +3
      The message in Skomorokhov's article is correct ... some "Potemkin villages", the expression "Putin's projects" may soon appear.
      Rather, the cry of the soul from this author (now they will minus again, like yesterday, in neighboring topics ... eh bully !): We change in the song, for the Su-75, but the meaning remains the same ... unfortunately ...! lol
  • Stas157
    Stas157 22 July 2021 08: 02
    0
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And about Armata, the author is generally past the checkout, 20 pieces already

    And more is not necessary. After all, there is. For parades just right!
    1. Revival
      Revival 22 July 2021 19: 41
      0
      I can't count it in any way, 20 pcs. how many regiments and tank divisions?
      To understand whether they will pull out a "tank unit", for example, a regional conflict, or is this a lot even for a "world war"?
  • Roman Skomorokhov
    22 July 2021 08: 38
    +11
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The author of the armata is generally past the checkout, 20 pieces are already there, the next deliveries are for 22

    Ahaha! Well, yes, as many as 20 pieces have been assembled since 2014. As it was officially said, since the start of production. Aren't you funny yourself? Slightly more than two tanks per year)))

    When they collect it in 2022, then we'll talk with pleasure. If they collect it.
    1. El Barto
      El Barto 22 July 2021 09: 04
      0
      We laugh at our brothers in mind from Svinoreykh with their "projects", but we ourselves have the same thing.
      Only they have a comedy, but we are all serious about driving money into marketing campaigns.
      That's right, let's pay millions of usd to design bureaus, marketing agencies, stir up an advertising campaign with videos for millions more, rivet a mock-up of a concept car and display it at a motor show ... that is, present a promising fighter at a serious aviation forum.
      We already have the characters of this humoresque heading the departments responsible for space, helicopter and aircraft construction
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 09: 14
      -1
      Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
      Slightly more than two tanks per year)))

      Well, if you imagine that you were collecting at such a pace, then it's funny to me, it's funny from you. We collected 20 and ran in, and according to the results of running in, finalization and only then a series.

      Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
      As it was officially said, since the start of production.
      Since the start of BATCH production? Or pre-production? Or installation? From which moment?
    3. Intruder
      Intruder 22 July 2021 20: 52
      +1
      Ahaha! Well, yes, as many as 20 pieces have been assembled since 2014. As it was officially said, since the start of production. Aren't you funny yourself? Slightly more than two tanks per year)))
      Roman, thanks for the article good lol , although ... they will minus us now, they started me in the neighboring topics about this bird, from the very day of the presentation! Well, two tanks a year are just real opportunities .. which is not surprising and very good for this country, respected and loved by all!
  • DLord
    DLord 22 July 2021 04: 27
    -1
    200% agree
  • ramzay21
    ramzay21 22 July 2021 04: 33
    +16
    I agree with the author. One chatter after the fact. Our combat units needed the Su-57 yesterday, and they also promised to arm several regiments by 2020, when they began to carry models of the PAK FA around exhibitions. Nobody likes talkers.
    1. Fuse angel
      Fuse angel 22 July 2021 06: 13
      +2
      The SU-57 is a very complex aircraft, it is impossible to produce it immediately on the assembly line, years of testing are needed. This applied to all such aircraft, it took years to test them. Talking politicians do not need to listen to them. In addition, a contract for 76 aircraft has already been signed, this is a little more, but not enough.
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 22 July 2021 07: 33
        +2
        it takes years of testing
        Come on, come on. Get the vaccine. less than a year has passed, but they are already being stuck in living people.
        1. KCA
          KCA 22 July 2021 08: 26
          +1
          The Gamaleya Center has been researching coronaviruses for over 25 years, so when covid19 appeared, it only took one year to develop a vaccine.
          1. shahor
            shahor 22 July 2021 12: 06
            +1
            Quote: KCA
            The Gamaleya Center has been researching coronaviruses for over 25 years, so when covid19 appeared, it only took one year to develop a vaccine.

            The Sukhoi Design Bureau and KNAPO have been developing and manufacturing fighters for almost 70 years, so it took them only ... years to create and launch the Su-57 series.
            1. KCA
              KCA 22 July 2021 12: 50
              +1
              Do not confuse warm with soft, microbiology and engineering, if 70 years ago there was a SU-7, create on its basis the SU-7.5, without changing the airframe, on the same engines, so, changing a little avionics, it will take less than a year, if you do not know, every season the usual flu virus mutates, and a vaccine for a new strain is ready for each season, just before there was less noise around vaccines and vaccinations, everything went quiet and everyday
              1. shahor
                shahor 22 July 2021 19: 20
                -1
                Quote: KCA
                just before, there was less noise around vaccines and vaccinations, everything was quiet and everyday

                Previously, there was less noise around the creation of aircraft, and everything went quietly. But I still admire your erudition. Comparing the process of creating a vaccine and developing a new aircraft is cool!
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 22 July 2021 15: 46
          -1
          Russia did not have experience in mass production of fifth generation fighters, as well as new tanks, so that yesterday it would all be massively in the troops - in fact, they differ significantly from the previous generation in almost everything - to create one thing, but to establish the production of all elements is all the more necessary to train the staff, and this is years of work at the snap of your fingers.
      2. Revival
        Revival 22 July 2021 19: 44
        -1
        "The SU-57 is a very complex aircraft, it is impossible to stamp it on the assembly line right away, years of testing are needed."

        As far as I understand, you alone know that?
        Those who promised and guaranteed not matured to such intimate knowledge?
      3. ramzay21
        ramzay21 23 July 2021 00: 58
        +1
        The SU-57 is a very complex aircraft, it is impossible to produce it immediately on the assembly line, years of testing are needed.

        If we were talking about the design of such an aircraft in Iran, where there is no design school, no personnel, no design bureau, or numerous enterprises. We are talking about a country that was once the world leader in aircraft manufacturing.
        76 aircraft in 10 years, against the background of the fact that by this time the United States and its allies will have almost 2000 fifth-generation aircraft, this is a crime.
    2. The comment was deleted.
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    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 22 July 2021 05: 22
      +15
      Want only urya articles? So this is to the "Star". VO is an adequate platform where there are different opinions. If you don't like the opinion, then this is purely your problem.
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 22 July 2021 20: 54
        +1
        If you don't like the opinion, then this is purely your problem.
        Colleague, bravo !!! They answered well, to all sorts of uryak ... of which they got divorced here, just like pigeons ..., only comments are fertilized with minuses.
    2. avia12005
      avia12005 22 July 2021 06: 59
      -6
      Has it become clear to you since July 9, 2021, when did you appear here?
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 22 July 2021 05: 04
    -2
    I will also answer point by point - this is not a model, but a prototype, for static (ground) tests. But, if necessary, it can take off within six months, so here the author is deeply wrong. Point 2 - Armata's program is generally successful, problems with the T14 product, specifically with the tank, because the same T15 BMP has gone through a full test cycle, perhaps there will be a large order for it. Su57, 5th generation fighter. Roman, you decided to ignore the fact that the army signed a contract for 76 aircraft by the army, do I understand correctly? In addition, it is possible that more of them will be fixed, as well as the C70 Hunter ubpl, which the army is demanding today. I did not expect such an article from you with distorted facts!
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 22 July 2021 07: 03
      +20
      Quote: Thrifty
      Roman, the fact that the army signed a contract for 76aircraft army decided to ignore you, I understand correctly?

      Have they already been delivered? Not? And what is this number of 76? Is it on par with what? Our poverty?

      When the contract is completed, then it will be possible to throw hats. In the meantime, you can recall the contract for 39 IL-76 from 2012. Those planes? It seems that the amount is quite small for such a long period!

      They promised to deliver by 2020 ... And then they canceled the contract, just as easily as the terms for the president. And now, under the new contract, they promise only 27 aircraft (in total) by 2028 ... They promise.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 22 July 2021 13: 29
        +2
        Quote: Stas157
        In the meantime, you can recall the contract for 39 Il-76 from 2012.

        You can also recall the 2013 contract for 6 Be-200s. According to which the Ministry of Defense received ... its own money back - according to the court. And I had to conclude a new contract, the terms for which the Berievites also thwarted (for a year).
        1. Zufei
          Zufei 25 July 2021 21: 22
          0
          After 2014 - Be-200 with engines from Ukroboronprom? More than a good reason
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 22 July 2021 15: 57
        -1
        And what is this number of 76? This is the first contract - the second one will be twice as large, since Sushki 27th and quite a few of them will be completely replaced with new aircraft. In the meantime, you can recall the contract for the 39 Il-76 from 2012, it was thwarted by sanctions and a trade embargo with Ukraine on the supply of military equipment and the rearmament of Aviastar dragged on from here and the disruption of the fulfillment of contracts with the fleet stopped supplying the same engines and the release stopped until their own was done.
    2. Roman Skomorokhov
      22 July 2021 09: 06
      +15
      No distortion of facts. Facts, sorry, this is when the product is there. And here, at best, while the paper is stained with paint.

      Quote: Thrifty
      BMP T15 has passed a full cycle of tests, perhaps there will be a large order for it.


      Yes, it might be, but it might not. That's when it will be - then we'll talk.

      Quote: Thrifty
      Su57, 5th generation fighter. Roman, you decided to ignore the fact that the army signed a contract for 76 planes, do I understand correctly?


      The signed contract in light of the fact that the engine from "Product 30" is still not there and is not expected in the near future - this is again a paper about nothing. There will be a real fifth-generation fighter, not a fuselage with an AL-412 crutch - then we'll talk.

      Quote: Thrifty
      In addition, it is possible that more of them will be fixed, as well as the C70 "Hunter" uppla, which the army is already demanding today.


      Your claim contains too much undefined declension. That's when all these "maybe", "Maybe", "Probably" will be removed - then we'll talk.

      By the way, I wrote about this in the article, but you did not bother to read it.
      1. Firelake
        Firelake 22 July 2021 13: 13
        +2
        I fully support it. I immediately recall the science module for the ISS. It is more profitable to develop now than to build. It's hard to build ...
      2. Sergey Kulikov_3
        Sergey Kulikov_3 22 July 2021 13: 31
        -5
        Where did you find the F-35 with the originally declared characteristics? Well, the Americans riveted something similar in shape to the F-35, there is no plane itself, can you tell us to do that too?
      3. El Chuvachino
        El Chuvachino 23 July 2021 23: 54
        -3
        Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
        The signed contract in light of the fact that the engine from "Product 30" is still not there and is not expected in the near future - this is again a paper about nothing. There will be a real fifth-generation fighter, not a fuselage with an AL-412 crutch - then we'll talk.

        What are you carrying? What relation does ed. 30, which has nothing to do with the 19 contract, affect its performance? And who gave you the right to judge the plane so haughtily? If the Su-57 in its current configuration did not meet the requirements, it would not be accepted into service and would not be put into production.
        For a long time I have not seen such a mediocre manipulation of facts, both in the "article" and in the comments.
  • Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 22 July 2021 05: 06
    +5
    I agree, another zilch, so to speak, checkmate to Russian marketing winked
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 22 July 2021 05: 15
    +7
    Whoever praises me will get a big candy ... the story with this plane from this series.
    There is a lot of noise, dust, splashes of champagne and at the exit there is an exhaust in the form of a prototype mock-up, no one knows what ... cool guys from marketing frolicked.
    What was that anyway? what
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 22 July 2021 05: 19
      -4
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Whoever praises me will get a big candy ...

      No sweets, a penny is enough, but each one! laughing
    2. Thrifty
      Thrifty 22 July 2021 05: 24
      -7
      Lech with android - there is a huge difference between the layout and the prototype, the prototype was shown to us. Unlike the model, it can actually take off, launch missiles, drop bombs ... This is generally an airplane for other people's money, for the emirates, this is their personal private order for our defense industry! So panic and snot are inappropriate here !!!
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 22 July 2021 05: 36
        +4
        Marketing is not so stupid ... this whole PR campaign is designed for stupid buyers and first grade children.
        We need to take a more serious approach to military products ... a demonstration of capabilities should give goosebumps and animals fear to potential buyers.

        And then what?
        Wanna see me naked belay
        Fuck ... no words ... harem in one word.
      2. El Barto
        El Barto 22 July 2021 09: 47
        +6
        I could have taken off.
      3. Vadim237
        Vadim237 22 July 2021 16: 01
        -2
        For the Emirates at MAKS they showed a model of a supersonic passenger aircraft, joint financing for its creation.
    3. alexvmar
      alexvmar 22 July 2021 09: 30
      -1
      It was: an adequate reaction to the lack of interest of foreign customers in the twin-engine Su-57. At MAKS-21 they showed what ours can offer for foreigners easier, but with the same quality and functionality and much cheaper than the Fu-35.
      1. El Barto
        El Barto 22 July 2021 09: 53
        +2
        Adequate for marketers of Durex products, beer and iPhones. Who in the modern world will buy weapons impressed by beautiful videos and beautiful models riveted in haste?
        1. alexvmar
          alexvmar 22 July 2021 11: 34
          -2
          Are you sure this is a model? But the European project of the allegedly fifth generation, the model?
          1. El Barto
            El Barto 22 July 2021 11: 43
            +2
            FKAS? Of course the model. Moreover, it is clear there that there will be nothing but conversations.
  • Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 22 July 2021 05: 21
    +17
    In the USSR, no fuss was raised, the Western military could only guess about the performance characteristics of our new machines and even about their real names.
    In the Russian Federation, the noise is above the roof, the promises are enormous, but the output is zilch, with very rare exceptions. The same Su-57 under the state program for 2011-2020 should have already been delivered 52, and with the product 30. In reality, not a single one, but only promises about the new engine ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 22 July 2021 16: 18
      0
      "The same Su-57 according to the state program for 2011-2020 should have already been delivered 52, and with the product 30. In reality, not a single one, but only promises about the new engine ..." Difficulties arose with production and testing and they intensified, and great since 2014. But since all these rakes have been taken into account, they will now begin to do everything faster, since they have replaced almost all critical import with their own.
      "And about the new engine, there are only promises ..." Here is the engine itself
      and he's on Su 57 with number 052
      - tests have been going on since 2017.
      1. Zufei
        Zufei 25 July 2021 21: 29
        0
        Lies. Nozzle with a different number of sections in different photos.
  • yuliatreb
    yuliatreb 22 July 2021 05: 32
    +4
    As we have already accepted for the last 10 years, and maybe they have learned to PR more, but whether it will go beyond this PR, the question is already rhetorical, the author has reasonably put everything on the shelves, so for me, all these presentations and all sorts of deeds lately, an ineptly thought-out election campaign of one bored and promising person to everyone.
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 22 July 2021 05: 52
    +13
    Strange article.
    The problem of Armata and Su57 is not that they are not in our troops.
    The problem is that they simply do not exist.
    General.
    The cars that drove / flew in parades are prototypes that changed every time from sample to sample and still have not passed all the tests.
    Accordingly, there is simply nothing to sell.
    And the same Su57, although formally adopted, is still a semi-finished product. It was even initially announced about the engines, but the need to modernize the avionics was admitted in fact.
  • mark1
    mark1 22 July 2021 05: 52
    -12%
    For the sake of a catchphrase, I will not regret my father either ... How can one make such radical judgments without having the completeness of information, and even having some part of it, almost completely ignore it (the principle - "I see it this way")?
    A refrigerator for the head is a necessary thing in the household!
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      22 July 2021 09: 11
      +13
      Oh yes of course! Now, if I wrote that in 2035 the hordes of these planes would sweep America off the face of the earth - this is where you would go! And the fact that today some media are writing about the "unique flight characteristics" of an aircraft that did not rise into the air is normal.
      1. TatarinSSSR
        TatarinSSSR 22 July 2021 09: 29
        -2
        Look at the reaction of President Putin when he was shown this Shah and Checkmate ... He somehow listened without much interest, watched and without listening to Rostekhnovets went on to the expatriates. He does not like the next sticks and noodles on the ears. This is an indicator of the value and readiness of a new model aircraft, raw and untested, all of its performance characteristics are modeled on a computer and nothing more. You are absolutely correct in your article.
      2. mark1
        mark1 22 July 2021 15: 56
        0
        Roma, what have the hordes to do with (although I am for the hordes) - let's start with the fact that the development is being carried out (while places) in an initiative (or semi-initiative - in the interests of a foreign customer) order. For this reason, it is too early to demand to slap "hordes" for our Air Force, the aircraft is not included either in the weapons system or in the procurement plan. And then - you shouldn't sing the funeral service for a plane that has never taken off, you have two reference years (23 and 26), so look at the presence of correspondence, why flog the fever, mess people up.
      3. Intruder
        Intruder 22 July 2021 20: 58
        +4
        And the fact that today some media outlets write about the "unique flight characteristics" of an aircraft that did not rise into the air is normal.
        For Russian science fiction - quite, it would go! good But I choose, another reality, like: "We are born ...":
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 22 July 2021 06: 23
    -8
    Criticism has always been Roman's forte.
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 22 July 2021 07: 28
      +16
      Quote: Ros 56
      Crypticism

      Is he wrong about something?
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 22 July 2021 08: 50
        +10
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Is he wrong about something?

        He broke the tradition of throwing hats up.
    2. Roman Skomorokhov
      22 July 2021 09: 09
      +10
      Quote: Ros 56
      Criticism has always been Roman's forte.


      Yes, this is a problem: I'm smart and not only eat in my head, but out of it not only "urya" shout. Do you have something to say on the topic, or is it problematic?
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        1. Cruorvult
          Cruorvult 22 July 2021 09: 57
          0
          Why should they pay? Simply if your opinion differs from the opinion of the author, then he is greatly offended and your opinion is "deleted". Isn't that right, Roman !?
          1. Ros 56
            Ros 56 22 July 2021 10: 11
            0
            There is no such thing as free of charge under capitalism. Reminds me of the call from our local administration for everyone to remove the snow. They just kept silent, but where are the owners of these territories and for what the utilities get money, I agree that they are small, but nevertheless.
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            2. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 22 July 2021 19: 04
              -2
              Quote: Ros 56
              It does not happen that under capitalism and for free

              Take Norway's economy and analyze its social obligations to citizens. There, by the way, too, capitalism. wink
              1. Ros 56
                Ros 56 22 July 2021 19: 06
                -1
                I don't know Norwegian. laughing
      2. GriggoT
        GriggoT 22 July 2021 11: 28
        -2
        Look for lads, but you can't raise children like you, if I, like a woman, told you that I wouldn't cook borscht, because you haven't put your teeth in until now, you would be hungry and fucking useless. What's the use of all of you here, don't throw your hats up ?! Discreet and the main theme - America is always right. I didn’t take any of you as husbands, and your opinion about yourself doesn’t interest!
  • Vasya Santa
    Vasya Santa 22 July 2021 06: 27
    +2
    Excellent, objective analysis.
    So far, apart from cartoons, there is nothing.
  • Carib
    Carib 22 July 2021 06: 29
    +16
    Separate opinion. We can build both tanks and aircraft in one-time quantities. How many microcircuits had time to buy before 2014. We didn't buy any more, there was no order. And in 2014, the purchase was broken by the sanctions. So it is necessary to build factories for the production of microcircuits, for the production of means for the production of microcircuits. These most overly expensive scanners ... take a long time to enumerate. And those at the helm are hoping that it will cost, it will be possible to buy, steal, exchange, and they will not have to invest billions in factories, factories, scientists, development, and institutes. So you want this money in your own or in the state pocket (with the opportunity to put some in your own later.) So there are no microcircuits, and there are no tanks, no planes. We thought they would be able to transfer to outdated microcircuits (which we know how to do, and with which the warehouses are crammed). Only, apparently, the flower does not come out from the master !!! Heavy microcircuits, prohibitive consumption, reliability nowhere ...
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      22 July 2021 09: 12
      +6
      Yes you are right. Microelectronics is a separate pain.
      1. Drago
        Drago 22 July 2021 12: 13
        +1
        Pain? This is no longer pain, this is a morgue, where a corpse is beautifully dressed in a disposable paper suit.
      2. V means B
        V means B 24 July 2021 10: 39
        0
        Wow) The first time I see you in the comments (from the moment I began to read your articles on the site or I was just inattentive) my respect or as they say now "respect and respect", write well, only "holy war" with the authors of the articles on aircraft carriers a little frustrating.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 22 July 2021 16: 32
      -4
      "" We can build both tanks and airplanes in one-time quantities. So it is necessary to build factories for the production of microcircuits, for the production of means for the production of microcircuits "- Building factories for the production of microelectronics for piece equipment is something new hundreds of billions of rubles down the drain, if you create new production, then at existing enterprises.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  • gregor6549
    gregor6549 22 July 2021 06: 33
    +16
    Article plus. The novel quite rightly spoke about the excitement that rises around any novelty of military equipment and weapons, often turning into hysteria worthy of the close attention of psychiatrists.
    I worked in the defense industry of the Union for over 30 years and I cannot remember that the R&D that was carried out then was accompanied by a similar hype.
    On the contrary. Everything was done very quietly and often probable and incredible opponents learned about these developments when they were already in full operation in the troops.
    Of course, there were leaks of information, but even then everything was done so that this information was perceived "over the hill" exactly the opposite.
    But that's not even the main thing. The main thing was to saturate the USSR Armed Forces with worthy novelties to the maximum and be ready to fight at any time.
    Market issues then worried the country's leadership insofar as. Yes, and there was no particular market, but there was basically a free distribution of not new types of equipment in order to expand the sphere of influence of the USSR in the world in opposition to the West. This, of course, cost the country a large pretty penny, but the leadership of the USSR deliberately went to such expenses, although sometimes it flew with this help, as, for example, with Egypt, which went over to the side of the United States as soon as the States offered him a much larger money than it offered and could afford the USSR.
    Now it seems that new military equipment and weapons are being created in Russia not so much to equip the Russian Armed Forces as to get not an extra penny.
    At the same time, very convincing pretexts are invented (support for defense enterprises, expansion of Russia's influence in the world, etc.).
    But even if it is possible to sell something to someone, the question arises "Where is the money, Zin?" , especially since in many defense enterprises the share of private capital sometimes goes off scale. And the private trader has a simple approach: get funding for another super duper proposal, then cut the dough (preferably in very hard currency) and dissolve with him in the fog of Albion.
    Hence the keen interest in foreign markets and the already mentioned hard currency. Sometimes, of course, the private trader does not succeed and he has to say goodbye to everything that has been acquired by overwork and for a while look at nature through a window into a large cage. It is also true that this "acquired" is not always returned to income and to the benefit of the state, but quietly goes into other hairy paws. But in any case, the question of selling everything that can and cannot be over the hill began to be seriously overshadowed by another, much more important question "What are we going to fight if tomorrow is a campaign, if tomorrow is a war?" , especially since tomorrow, given the current development of events, may come very soon. And the answer to this question is getting harder and harder to find
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      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 22 July 2021 07: 43
        +4
        Many are capable of wagging the grandmother with their tongue
        Are you talking about yourself? For example, I know. that Roman believed in "Russian Spring" and brought food to Donbass. What did you do? They were fighting on the couch.?
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 22 July 2021 08: 13
          +2
          For example, I know. that Roman believed in "Russian Spring" and brought food to Donbass. What did you do?

          This is worthy of the deepest respect. If a person does what he does best, then this should only be welcomed. I'm not talking about the article.
    2. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 22 July 2021 07: 53
      +2
      Quote: gregor6549
      the question of selling everything that can and cannot be over the hill began to be seriously overshadowed by another, much more important question "And what are we going to fight if tomorrow is a campaign, if tomorrow is a war?" , especially since this tomorrow with the current development of events may come very soon

      And who, with whom and for what will they fight?
      Abramovich against England?
      Or Deripaska versus America?
      1. dauria
        dauria 22 July 2021 09: 22
        0
        And who, with whom and for what will they fight?
        Abramovich against England?


        I remembered anecdote ...
        - Abram, buy kerosene. Suddenly, the war and electricity will be cut off ..
        - Sarah, I spoke to Ivan. He said there will be no war
        - You are a fool. Why should Ivan be afraid? He will take a rifle and go to war, and you will sit there without light.
      2. gregor6549
        gregor6549 22 July 2021 11: 33
        -5
        And here it is like with a gun in the theater, which if in the first act hangs on the wall, then in the second it will certainly shoot. And now many countries have already hung so many different "guns" on the walls in possible theaters of military operations that some of them, you want it or not, will shoot. And there, and other "guns" will catch up. And Abramovich, Deripaska and other equidistant ones will not have time to figure out how they will be brought to the wall .... with the indicators of their heroic labor for their own good and will ask the same rhetorical question: "Where is the money, Zin?" But they will not answer that way and can remember zero. Not the highest, good, arithmetic winked
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 22 July 2021 16: 36
      0
      "I have worked in the defense industry of the Union for over 30 years and I cannot remember that the R&D that was carried out then was accompanied by a similar hype." Probably because the USSR was not involved in the arms trade as such. And now if there is information and interest, the same good advertisement.
  • Lepsik
    Lepsik 22 July 2021 06: 36
    -23%
    --- A complete zilch came out. There were no orders.

    There are no orders because they were not offered. This is a batch to mark positions and show the level.

    When the opponents begin to rivet analogs and rivet something comparable, then Armata-2 will come out with a 152 mm cannon and again NATO in the priest.

    But the comparison with the F-35 is just one laugh. Another F-117 flying stool. no decent rockets, no performance characteristics, no locators. Internal enemies have done a great job. After NATO got bogged down in this underdevelopment, the Russian Federation will roll the plane head and shoulders above.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 22 July 2021 06: 39
    +1
    The fact that a mock-up that will / will not fly is okay.
    Less verbal husk, around what did not exist .... although, the layout is.
  • avia12005
    avia12005 22 July 2021 06: 57
    +12
    Personal opinion is as follows:
    1. While the Ministry of Industry and Trade is headed by Denis Manturov, there will be many verbs like "will", "will", "will begin" and very few real results.
    2. While Denis Manturov with such a job will have an income of 400 million rubles. annually, there will be no sense.
    1. Gardamir
      Gardamir 22 July 2021 07: 15
      +18
      will have an income of 400 million rubles
      There is no need to scare Denis Valentinovich, he now has an income of 740 million.
      1. avia12005
        avia12005 22 July 2021 07: 35
        +4
        Damn, how can I do that ... fool
      2. Ros 56
        Ros 56 22 July 2021 10: 16
        +1
        I am extremely interested, but who puts you a minus, is it possible that Manturov's friends are wiping themselves out? wassat
    2. Firelake
      Firelake 22 July 2021 07: 25
      +8
      But how did your language turn: leave a friend without a crust of bread. And so after all, almost on a starvation diet in comparison with others ...
      Sarcasm.
    3. Stas157
      Stas157 22 July 2021 08: 31
      +1
      Quote: avia12005
      Personal opinion is as follows:
      1. While the Ministry of Industry and Trade is headed by Denis Manturov, there will be many verbs like "will", "will", "will begin" and very few real results.

      Take it higher. You definitely can't go wrong!
  • Nix1986
    Nix1986 22 July 2021 07: 10
    +1
    In terms of the power plant, I agree with the author, until it is as poor as the f35, this is the fifth generation with an asterisk. And everything else is correctly written, article +. There is really one more question, heavy and now light fighters go to dry, and what remains for Mig? Modernization and repair of the 31st and an incomprehensible story with the new interceptor? I'm afraid that Mig would not go bankrupt on the horizon for 10 years.
    1. Cruorvult
      Cruorvult 22 July 2021 08: 27
      -1
      We want like the Americans, but what we have in reality.

      "Currently, the engines of 46 fighters (15 percent) of the fifth generation F-35 Lightning II of the US Armed Forces are not working," The Drive notes. The reason for this was the rapid deterioration of the thermal coating (degradation of calcium-magnesium aluminum silicate) of the rotor blades of the F135 power plant. "
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  • Spiridonovich2
    Spiridonovich2 22 July 2021 07: 32
    +10
    What are we talking about? The economy has been razed to the ground. There are no shots at all. There is no one except managers. Scientific potential has ordered us to live a long time, we do not train engineers, we cannot find qualified workers in the daytime with fire, there are no competent leaders. Everything is run by managers trained in the art of sawing budget money. We will collect models and watch cartoons.
  • Bez 310
    Bez 310 22 July 2021 07: 33
    +1
    Plans, plans, plans ...
    We are doing well with our plans, but with their implementation it is bad. As has long been the custom in Russia, nothing is ever done by the deadline.
    In general, based on experience, we can conclude - a lot of ado about nothing, unfortunately ...
    1. sevryuk
      sevryuk 22 July 2021 12: 03
      0
      Quote: Bez 310
      Plans, plans, plans ...
      We are doing well with our plans, but with their implementation it is bad.


      In fact, plans are an indispensable element of any activity.
  • Adimius38
    Adimius38 22 July 2021 07: 54
    +1
    The author, in principle, is right in everything.
  • mvg
    mvg 22 July 2021 07: 56
    +4
    The price of military equipment is lower than that of American and European manufacturers with a minimum quality of "no worse" - this is a "trick" of Russian manufacturers. Therefore, our technology has always been in demand and will be in demand among those countries who want good technology, but are dressed up with money.

    Minimum controversial
    The cost is 35 million dollars - but this is also the Su-35, which is known, tested and verified. And the Su-30MKI, which is in demand and respected.

    2.2. billion rubles (35 million $) it costs for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, for India it costs 80-85 million dollars. Where is it in demand? India itself produces it under license, only we sell it to Algeria, and 4 boards were presented to Armenia and Belarus and Kazakhstan. Let's compare with the sales of F-16 and F-35.
    Who checked the Su-35? He only left for China, as a "squadron of aggressors", no one else is needed.
    1. Cruorvult
      Cruorvult 22 July 2021 08: 16
      0
      "for India it costs $ 80-85 million" You are lying a little, this is not for India, but for the Indian assembly, that is, no one forces them to assemble at home, they achieve this themselves, this is one, two, here it is necessary to check the numbers, because that there are completely different, from 56 to 62 million, for example, here

      https://rg.ru/2020/08/25/pochemu-indijskie-su-30mki-stoiat-dorozhe-rossijskih-su-30sm.html

      And if we calculate the contract price, then the F-35 for Norway came out at 200 Lyams apiece, not to mention the problems of icing.
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  • Max PV
    Max PV 22 July 2021 08: 39
    +1
    There is a big difference at the expense of adopting and supplying equipment to the troops in Russia and the United States. The United States can afford to adopt and purchase, let's be honest, a crude and unfinished aircraft or other piece of equipment. And this even gives advantages, since it makes it easier to "catch fleas", thanks to extensive experience of real operation, and in the best way to realize the wishes and requirements of precisely those people who will use this technique.
    In the conditions of Russia, the American option is unacceptable for one simple reason: we have "nothing more permanent than temporary." Until all the customer's requirements are met or revised, there can be no question of any delivery to the troops.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 22 July 2021 09: 06
      0
      The history of the production of the Su-35, in parallel with the tests, looks at you with amazement.
      1. Firelake
        Firelake 22 July 2021 13: 36
        0
        Yes, I think the history of all military equipment of the Russian Federation looks with surprise
  • Alsur
    Alsur 22 July 2021 08: 43
    +1
    Quote: Stas157
    Quote: For example
    Noise and hatred for everything that happens in Russia

    Maybe people are just tired of promises?
    And then for the last 20 years, everyone only promises and does little of it.

    Someone promised you something? This is a commercial project, PR is done competently, the product will come in - excellent, no, of course it's bad. But what does this have to do with promises. If Armata were ordered, they would be made, production is ready for this. They do not order, this is certainly bad, but in the world there is a pandemic, Southeast Asia suffers financial difficulties, and the whole world is still a pandemic. Plus, the United States, like an offended wife in a divorce, is doing dirty tricks to prevent Russia from entering the arms market, forgetting about the invisible hand of the market and fair competition. They just twist their arms, intimidate countries. And under these conditions, we still manage to sell something.
  • tone
    tone 22 July 2021 09: 03
    -4
    For the first time I fully support the author, they tell tales about a layout with a nonexistent engine.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 22 July 2021 09: 05
    -1
    which is given on credit, and the loan can be forgiven later


    I, of course, understand that for Skomorokhov this is the same news as the fact that the Su-57 has been in the series for a long time with a delivery schedule, but in the world, weapons are usually supplied on credit. And loans are forgiven for a reason. Moreover, from time immemorial it was customary to give debts, which to be returned, otherwise it would be impossible to sell oneself into slavery. The offices, it seems, the IMF live on this, and the West raged on Putin when he paid debts to the West in the region of 2003-2004, so that there were only small things left for which you cannot catch. If you don't owe anyone, then you are free.

    At the same time, normal countries return weapons loans without problems, the same Venezuela by the time the unrest began there, out of about 10 lard of weapons loans had already returned 7.

    About the same: they offered everyone


    Obviously, for Skomorokhov, "everyone" = "nobody". And in the near. 15 years, most likely, they will not be offered to anyone, Russia is now not in that beggarly position to sell any weapon at all, except for weapons of mass destruction, in which it was in the 90s. And access to the Su-57 will only be based on military and political expediency.

    The Indians, by the way, were offered not to buy, but to participate. No more will be offered.

    In general, I suggest Skomorokhov to be held accountable for his words, according to the plan for the delivery of the Su-57 this year 4 aircraft should be handed over. Well, let's throw in a month for possible force majeure, and if by 01.02.2022/57/XNUMX these aircraft are accepted for acceptance, he will write an article apologizing for his insinuations to the Russian military-industrial complex and the Su-XNUMX.
  • TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 22 July 2021 09: 05
    0
    I agree with the aator 100% when you write such an opinion in the comments, they throw minuses. As if many on the site have a complex of an offended boy who wants to be praised and envied of his personally assembled non-flying airplane, but this does not exist, since others have these airplanes and they even fly. Russian arms dealers in the field of tank building, aviation and space have some kind of game in the manner of promoting goods. Take a crude plane or a tank, concocted in puffs for a parade or an exhibition, loudly and with a swoop praising to present it to the World with a favorite saying about "having no analogue in the world!" super duper wunderwafer, and then chase it for another 5-8 years at parades and exhibitions, finishing something, altering it to the point where it is already outdated and needs to be modernized ... But it does not go to the troops serially and in large quantities. Expensive. Improvement of requirements from the military ...
  • Falcon iba
    Falcon iba 22 July 2021 09: 08
    +1
    Thanks to the author for the detailed article! I agree 100%. This MODEL was created, I think, at best, to probe the market at MAKS, and at worst, in order to pinch off a piece of the NWF for the development of aircraft construction in the country!
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 22 July 2021 14: 48
      -3
      What are you created for? I presume to get the capital?
      1. Falcon iba
        Falcon iba 23 July 2021 08: 46
        +3
        You have probably made great strides in your life by asking such questions. I will answer: I am a military pilot of the 1st class, a veteran of military service, I have raised two sons. I believe I justified my creation, which I sincerely wish for you.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 23 July 2021 14: 39
          -1
          I don’t know what you taught your sons, but you definitely don’t understand the combat aircraft market, because no one probes the market, and without a customer it is very difficult to sell anything there. As for the layout / non-layout, at the presentation they said in Russian that this is a full-scale stand at this time, which should become a flight specimen. True, it makes no difference whether this instance will remain a stand, and another will fly instead, or not.
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    1. Cruorvult
      Cruorvult 22 July 2021 09: 37
      0
      Nobody needs a "naked" plane, if we take the first large orders from foreign countries, then one 35A there turned out to be 200 million, a spare engine is needed - it is necessary, weapons, suspended tanks, maintenance, training, correct American keys :-D
    2. Konnick
      Konnick 22 July 2021 10: 41
      +1
      The author is a complete layman. The F-35 with a shortened takeoff and landing costs from $ 115 million for its own in 2019 prices. And it does not take into account from the total number how many of them are in real operation.
      Well, a simple and empty F-35 costs from 89 million dollars. At the same time, in a real battle, this "penguin" will be a whipping boy for all normal aircraft of the 4+ generation.

      Write an article, prove that you are a layman.
      The current trend in the development of combat aviation implies precisely short take-off and landing, stealth technology, speed and variability of the weapons used, i.e. based on current tasks, a combat aircraft can perform the functions of a fighter or bomber, or simultaneously. And extra maneuverability is not needed, it only increases the cost of the aircraft, for modern surface-to-air and air missiles - air is not a hindrance. The main thing is to take off quickly, quickly arrive at the right place unnoticed, complete a combat mission and return back. The tactics of Israeli raids, as you put it "penguins" on Syrian targets, is carried out according to this algorithm. And super speed can do a disservice, the plane becomes very noticeable due to heat. It is cheaper to use missile weapons in attack and defense with a shorter range and, accordingly, a reduced time for delivering a surprise strike, for which the plane serves, and not bullets with ultra-long-range, and, accordingly, super-expensive missiles at targets thousands of kilometers away ... And the Syrian Air Force cannot fulfill the interception of the Israelis due to the impossibility of finding the Israeli "penguins" in time. And for constant patrols, neither the resource of technology nor the money will be enough.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 22 July 2021 14: 59
        -3
        It is enough to go to the wiki article on the Su-57 to prove that he is a layman.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 22 July 2021 15: 12
          +1
          It is enough to go to the wiki article on the Su-57 to prove that he is a layman.

          Since when has Wikipedia been the undisputed source. It is bad form to refer to information from Wikipedia.
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 23 July 2021 08: 16
            -1
            Then google it.
  • Leonid Br
    Leonid Br 22 July 2021 09: 44
    -2
    I'll quibble a little:
    model - price - produced - price for 2019
    F-35A - $ 83,4 - 2628 pcs.
    F-35B - $ 108,1 - 562 pcs. - with vertical takeoff
    F-35C - $ 93,3 - 340 pcs. - deck
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 22 July 2021 09: 48
      +9
      The price is incorrect. Now 14 lot is relevant.

      https://www.f35.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/f35/images/FG21-00000_001%20F35FastFacts7_2021.pdf
  • Magnat231
    Magnat231 22 July 2021 10: 03
    -2
    I consider the article nonsense, a little history, remember the heavy ethereal, Hunter, when his layout was exposed, the songs about how the plywood was again the same, and what happened, damn it, the plywood flew, and soon it seems to go to the troops, so everything that is written, complete nonsense
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    2. Konnick
      Konnick 22 July 2021 10: 51
      0
      remember the heavy ethereal, Hunter, when his mock-up was put up, the songs about how the plywood was again the same, and what happened, damn it, the plywood flew, and soon it seems to go to the troops


      Like...
    3. Firelake
      Firelake 22 July 2021 13: 43
      +1
      Soon, maybe so on ...
      You know, the layout of a woman in bed does not mean that there will be a living woman ...
  • Vladimir61
    Vladimir61 22 July 2021 10: 04
    -3
    Some are so excited that if they were near the model, they would probably try to bite off the hated piece of something "Russian" from it. Yes, and the mass of deleted comments speaks exactly about this! Such activity that one cannot even believe that the topic under discussion is not a concept of an aircraft, but the topic of "no scientists", "no designers", "no polymers", "a gas station country" and it is impossible to live in Russia!
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  • Alexander Akchurin
    Alexander Akchurin 22 July 2021 11: 29
    -4
    I agree with the author about the Armats and the Su-57, but I doubt about the new MAKSA. And that's why. Chemezov stated that the project was created on an initiative basis without the use of budget funds. This is the first thing. Second. The name of the aircraft is in the Western manner. Third. A commercial before MAKS, in which pilots from different states (and the Saudis too). Fourth, a few years ago, we discussed with the Saudis questions of promising developments in the defense sphere. The question arises whether this product was not created by joint financial and technical efforts of several states, whose participation is moderately not advertised? Then everything falls into place and speed from the beginning of development to rolling out the sample. Obviously, there will be many changes to this project and in the end it will look somewhat different.
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 22 July 2021 11: 46
    -1
    EVERYTHING is true. Stupid pranksters only harm.
    This is clearly seen in non-military life.

    There is one more crafty question in PR, which is carefully avoided by cheers.
    Is F35 a bomber jacket? Big-bellied, small, single-engine, but bomber.
    Who can lift 9 tons of weapons and fly to the target unaccompanied (therefore a fighter bomber)., And then escape himself.

    And here is a clear fighter. Slim and lightweight. Even in promises - 7 tons of weapons.
    Those. different tasks, different markets, different prices, different quantities, etc.
    It is possible to compare, but .... purely - how much they managed to produce and sell .... and the rest is slyness ...
    1. Sergey Kulikov_3
      Sergey Kulikov_3 22 July 2021 14: 17
      -8
      No F-35, there is a Fu-35, the fakir was drunk, the focus failed. It is a fact, and facts are stubborn things.
      1. Shahno
        Shahno 22 July 2021 14: 22
        0
        Everything is fine, all 500 are in service .. And we have combat missions every month.
        Although, it's up to you. Models are also not bad, in 5-10 years, maybe .. they will be in service.
        1. Sergey Kulikov_3
          Sergey Kulikov_3 22 July 2021 14: 51
          -4
          And they develop supersonic speed for a long time? Can they fly 8G? Do they reach a speed of 1930 km / h? Maybe they take off with a full load of ammunition?
          And what about 50 Fu-35s with an exhausted resource, the journalists lie?
  • Terran ghost
    Terran ghost 22 July 2021 11: 53
    0
    There are countries that are focused on Russian technology, which are given on credit, and the loan can be forgiven later.

    And forgive me, why does Russia need such a "business" at all? Taking into account some kind of gratitude from the "recipient of the essentially free product" later? Well, then gratitude in such cases usually takes the form of ... a stab in the back "brotherly".
    The cost is 35 million dollars - but this is also the Su-35, which is known, tested and verified.

    The cost of the Su-35 under export contracts is approaching $ 90-100 million per plane.
    The declared value within the framework of the state defense order is a figure that essentially does not mean anything at all. Because in such cases, the real cost can be "divided" between different budget items of expenditure.
  • sevryuk
    sevryuk 22 July 2021 11: 57
    0
    and so on in indefinite declension

    bravura fortune telling

    As it was with the most unique and "not having" the "Armata" tank and the same Su-57 aircraft


    Articles are indefinite, marches are bravura, Armata and Su 57 have no analogues. And yes, things are bad with polymers.
  • A_Lex
    A_Lex 22 July 2021 12: 14
    +1
    It seems like people en masse do not understand a simple thing. There is no future. Therefore, it is impossible to speak confidently about how the situation will develop in the future.
    It is absolutely impossible to reliably establish in advance how a particular situation will develop. Therefore, there can be no certainty behind the plans, regardless of the reputation of the one who utters these plans. Moreover, the reputation accumulated on successfully completed projects in the past has nothing to do with the future project. The higher is only the probability that the project will be successfully delivered, but reputation itself cannot guarantee anything.

    With regard to technological production, with a relatively high probability, it is possible to set the timing of the release of the finished product, the production of which is ALREADY debugged, simply because everything is well known in the production process and there are no pitfalls, which means that the deadlines can be calculated based on the known indicators recorded during production ... And then disruptions are possible due to problems with financing, subcontractors, availability of resources, force majeure. Although, again, force majeure is also force majeure, that the probability of its occurrence is low, and the more a person learns the world around him, the less it is, i.e. if, for example, before an earthquake was like a bolt from the blue, now the probability of it can be predicted, and therefore prepare in advance.

    But when exactly the product will be developed, which is currently still completely unclear HOW exactly needs to be done is completely unknown. Therefore, plans for such a product are worthless. Examples: VNEU, Product 30.

    Therefore, it is paradoxical when people are accused of skepticism because they DO NOT BELIEVE in plans to create a technological product. Technology and faith are incompatible. Either you understand exactly all the stages of product development, i.e. you know exactly the algorithm that is required to produce it, or not. In this "either-or" there is simply no place for faith.

    Do you want to believe - please - Martians, goblin, Chupacabra, a real fight against corruption in a bourgeois state - that is, everything that cannot be proved, cannot be refuted, and does not correspond to the everyday picture of the world.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 24 July 2021 14: 04
      0
      People are accused not of skepticism, but of stupidity, ignorance of factual data, alarmism with all-prophecy, and instant forgetting about their psychoses, that they will not do anything when it turns out that they have done everything, and on time.

      As for the development of aircraft, people have been doing this for almost 120 years, and a certain amount of experience has been accumulated, in particular, on the basis of this, it can be concluded that there are no questions about the ability to bring this project to a series. Questions in terms of time, there really can be something to walk, and sales, where you can always run into a circus with a tender, or lack of money from the buyer, or something else. The fact that Indonesia did not buy the Su-35 is definitely not the fault of the OKB or the UAC.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 22 July 2021 12: 25
    0
    I hope the machine will be good and competitive, however
    In the next 15 years, it is planned to release 300 fighters
    this kind of hints that if he will be in our troops, then in modest quantities (and meanwhile, we are talking about the time until the end of some 2030, to which we attribute the mass of the existing aircraft fleet) - what will we replace the internal retiring park? Such an aircraft would be very necessary for us in the future. However, if we provide ourselves with such a machine, we will not have enough capacity to saturate exports.
    So IMHO - if the car is really good and "strong" we should have thoroughly forced all the stages - because if we do not do this, in 10 years this niche can be occupied by China, while we are swinging.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 24 July 2021 13: 58
      0
      Why is he in our troops ?? Our Air Force needs the Su-57, not small things.

      Although moaning about the "retiring" park, which has long been decommissioned and replaced, apparently, will be in 2050 too.

      China has nothing like this at all. The J-31 is twin-engine, which means that there is simply no place in it, so no one buys it, including China itself.
  • Plate
    Plate 22 July 2021 13: 02
    0
    will not fly in the near future, because it is clearly associated with certain problems.

    I think this has to do with the commercial basis of the project. This plane, as has been written in many places, is only needed for sale to the foreign market. The arguments were given there, so I agree. So that's it. If this is true, then the actions (for now) seem logical to me. Show the layout, give out the calculated characteristics, the estimated price ... Probe the soil, in general. There are those who want to start investing in a project with the intention of buying it - great. No - well, it's not a pity to abandon the project, since a lot of money has not yet been spent on it.
  • Glagol1
    Glagol1 22 July 2021 13: 17
    +2
    We'll see in 2023. Maybe it will be delayed for a year, in aviation this is normal, too complex an industry. In the meantime, you can criticize and PR on criticism too. But in vain. The product will go to the videoconferencing in any way, in any case, the Sukhovtsy are great, they are going forward.
  • Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 22 July 2021 13: 42
    -2
    And Russia really doesn't need Armat and Su-57. In a real war with the use of tactical nuclear weapons, the T-72 and MiG-29 from the warehouses will be no worse than the Armat and the Su-57.
    All Armati and Stealth kids will only demonstrate their superiority in local conventional warfare.