Why don't we buy the Ukrainian Zorya?

128
This material does not at all pretend to be an indication of action, but some of the thoughts voiced in it may be useful as information for thought.


Actually, these thoughts came to mind when Okoloradsky and I were thinking about dancing with money around Ukrainian defense enterprises. It turned out interestingly when the Chinese were simply pushed aside and Americans were drawn instead.



It is quite possible that the "Antonov" and "Motor Sich" are not so needed by the gentlemen mercenaries from the "Academy", although the cunning Mr. Eric Prince will profit even from empty shell glasses. Knows how, rascal, not to take away.

Perhaps it is much more profitable for the Americans that all Ukrainian factories do not go to the Chinese. However, this requires a lot of money. So much money. And money today, in a crisis, is somewhat not the kind that should be scattered even for strategic purposes.

But when it comes to such a serious adversary, which is China, money is not worth sparing. That's why Eric Prince can do it.

And here the thought was born: in what way are we worse than the Americans? Not in terms of organizing intrigues to China, but in terms of obtaining what is very necessary for ourselves.

Not so long ago, we were all heartily glad that our UEC (United Engine Corporation) launched two new engines for warships. This is really wonderful, because our fleet is on a starvation diet in terms of ship engines. And even such a seemingly mundane thing as a diesel engine brought to a series, we rejoice from the bottom of our hearts.

Yes, Russia has had problems in this regard since 2014. As soon as there was a break in relations with Ukraine, the supply of engines produced by neighbors stopped. And then relations with Germany ended, which stopped supplying its engines under the sanctions.

And sheer beauty has come. We sailed to the point that Chinese engines began to be installed on our warships. With all the ensuing consequences, like a cut ship hull to remove a jammed engine.

Ugly. But it seems that the light at the end of the tunnel dawned. However, two engines in 20 years is very small and very slow. But then you can remember the old principle of lazy people: if you can't do it yourself, buy it.

Of course, now some will say: we would buy, who would sell? It's like that. German diesels are not shining for us. We will abandon the Chinese ourselves, if it were not for that. What about Ukrainian ones? For example, from the company "Zorya-Mashproekt"?


Why don't we buy the Ukrainian Zorya?



Yes, the plant is now located on the territory of a country that is unfriendly to us. So what? But this country, as practice shows, is very friendly with the dollar (especially which falls into the pocket) and sells everything that is possible. And often what shouldn't be sold.

But the engines that the plant is still able to produce can be very, very useful to us.



It is clear that everything is being watched from the United States, and, as in the case of the sale of Motor Sich to this country, they are interfering. In fact, the Chinese are too civilized and educated. It did not occur to them that when the deal cracked at the seams, they just had to increase the amount in envelopes, and everything would be nice and quiet. And now the courts for three and a half billion, and even with a black hole in Ukraine ... No, unfortunately, there is no chance of getting the money back from China.

But what if a company from a country more or less loyal to the United States, and apparently not in relations with Russia, proposes to buy an engine-building plant? Another question, where to get such a country, a company, of course, is not a question, just like money, if you set yourself a goal.

It is clear that our eternal allies such as Belarus, Mongolia, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan will not fit. It is one thing to buy several dry cargo ships from Ukraine, which then "suddenly" appeared on the "Syrian Express"; it is another thing to produce engines for warships.

It is a pity that today we have no allies of such caliber through whom such an interesting operation could be carried out. To be honest, nothing even comes to mind. But it would be nice: "Zorya-Mashproekt" to pass under the control of firm X from country M, orders begin to go, Nikolaev specialists return to their jobs, ships enter the port, take orders ... Grace and idyll. And nobody really cares where these engines go. For example, the frigate Alonso de Ojeda, which will be built in South Korea. Or in Russia. Or in Iran. This is the third question.

Of course, with a strong desire to track where the engine went, as happened with the Siemens turbines in the Crimea, it is possible. Especially if you want to. But the question is - who wants to track the path of diesel marine engines?

And all the same, there are options, how to calmly bury the fat, that is, the engines.

In the end, if there is such a booze, and everything that can be sold is being sold in Ukraine - why not buy? This, as our friends from a small but very thought out country would say, would be a good gesheft.

One could think about how to buy what we need. The main question here is not how much money, we usually have it. The main thing is through whom. We are more than sad with our allies, but it’s not a bad move, it seems to me. There is an opinion that some country like Argentina or Chile would come up from South America.

Perhaps the readers will have other options, it would be interesting to get acquainted.

And you must admit, until "Zorya" is completely torn apart, this is a very interesting and fat piece. And we just would not have choked completely, Ukrainian engines would be useful to us ...
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128 comments
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  1. +8
    22 July 2021 15: 10
    The principle of the Ukrainian policy "I will frostbite my ears to harm Uncle Putin" continues to operate! Three unfinished frigates without turbines from Motor Sich pr. 11356 are a vivid confirmation of this !!!
    1. +23
      22 July 2021 15: 19
      Why the hell has surrendered to Russia a plant breathing in incense, and others too! All more or less popular strategic enterprises of Ukraine: Kharkov "Turboatom" and KhTZ, Odessa port, Dnipropetrovsk "Yuzhmash", Sumy NPO named after. Frunze, the Zaporozhye Motor Sich ... are practically collapsed. Kharkov plant them. Malysheva, if I am not mistaken, did not release a single new tank, but is exclusively engaged in the repair of old ones! And Antonov has assembled at least one aircraft ... Buying in order to invest millions in development is an unproductive idea, and besides, Russia has already replaced the products of Ukrainian strategic enterprises with its own. Therefore, if you fantasize, it is more pragmatic - to introduce takni and liberate the whole of Ukraine! Although even I do not see any sense in this, if only the left bank, but return home the mother of Russian cities with "pearl by the sea"!
      1. +15
        22 July 2021 15: 33
        At one time, Sberbank of the Russian Federation was banned from buying a 25% stake in Opel for $ 1,2 billion.
      2. +2
        22 July 2021 16: 00
        Quote: Finches
        Therefore, if you fantasize, it is more pragmatic - to introduce takni and liberate the whole of Ukraine!

        Yes
        We must take it.
        Everything.
        It is possible without Galicia, but then from Poland to take back East Prussia and all the German lands given by Stalin.
        They don't like Stalin, do they? angry
        They can't even eat. bully
        So to restore justice.
        And to sell the German lands to Germany.
        So it will be fair. Yes
        We must take it.
      3. +9
        22 July 2021 16: 03
        Buying defense enterprises in Ukraine is a waste of money. It's all the same what to throw in the trash. It is better to give money to sick children for treatment.
      4. +1
        22 July 2021 17: 07
        Quote: Finches
        Yes, return home the mother of Russian cities with "pearl by the sea"!

        And further down the list
      5. +1
        22 July 2021 17: 08
        It would be possible to quietly take out the equipment and documentation, and then entice the employees.
        1. 0
          22 July 2021 17: 09
          All intelligent employees are already in Rybinsk! laughing
          1. +1
            23 July 2021 18: 04
            Only these employees, with the assistance of the Chinese Communist Party, calmly moved to the PRC even before Russia had time to do anything.
            For those who do not know: ready-made UGT25000 and its machine kits were actively supplied and continue to go to the PRC and for the most part have already been localized by a considerable share of Zori specialists who moved there and the process began long before 2014, when in the late 90s the United States banned the supply of LM2500 to China and the Chinese paid attention to the Zori engines (localized version - QC 280).
            If even 10-15% of intelligent Zori specialists (not simple workers) had moved to Rybinsk, or at least to the UEC, we would have had working prototypes already in 2017-2018, and in 2021 there would have been large-scale serial production (with our needs).
            The problem with your statements is that you exclude the possibility of dumping Ukrainian specialists somewhere other than Russia. China has been doing this for a long time and fruitfully since the mid-90s and not only Ukrainians, but also Russians and the entire CIS go there, according to unconfirmed reports, China builds whole cities for the recruited personnel, provides a huge bunch of benefits and generously pays for their work, more than Ukraine and Russia taken together could afford.
            The problem with the outflow of personnel to China was long overdue, and after 2014 it only worsened, and this did not bypass Russia, the VO is full of articles about how scientists travel abroad in search of a better life and decent salaries, so the designer and engineers are worse, the great Xi highly values such gifts from our government.
            1. -3
              23 July 2021 18: 21
              Especially I do not argue, but engineers and scientists have already ceased to leave Russia en masse, they have begun to pay more or less, but the same Chinese are now actively using banal recruitment to buy up secretshi
      6. +2
        22 July 2021 17: 25
        [
        Quote: Finches
        Why the hell has surrendered to Russia a plant breathing in incense, and others too!

        You VERY you are greatly mistaken! Yes, the Ukrainian industry is being destroyed and dying, working people, specialists are scattering in all directions. But even now, when a large number of turbine operators left for Rybinsk and St. Petersburg (many of them are involved in the creation of Russian turbines and gearboxes), and the plant has slowed down, it is still while active and capable of reaching full speed. Who are you talking about? Did you know that there are only a few such enterprises in the world? He was unique in the USSR and in Russia there is still no one like him, only is being created analogue. And what about the turbine building school? And science? Pay attention to the inscription on the facade, it says: scientific and industrial complex of gas turbine construction.

        And Roman's article is a fairy tale. First, "Zorya" never Did NOT build diesel engines, initially it was created as a unique gas turbine building complex of the USSR Navy. GTU for ships, and after the collapse of the USSR and GTU for gas pumping. Secondly, no one will ever be able to sell it due to its uniqueness and strategic importance: the Americans are closely monitoring it and will NOT allow it.

        Only the way out is to return it entirely. Until they destroyed and practically destroyed both the ChSZ and the plant named after 61 Communards (Nikolaev once began from this plant ...). Northern Black Sea region, Novorossiya, Nikolaev - VERY profitable acquisition for Russia. Or a return to home harbor? smile

        Who is opposed? Well, Russia has always been famous for the "smartest" ones, who diminished a little after improving the roads. Again, "patriots" from the "fifth column", foreign "friends", "worried" about Russia and the Russians ... laughing laughing laughing
        1. -6
          22 July 2021 20: 21
          Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
          "Zorya" has never built diesel engines, it was originally created as a unique gas turbine complex of the Soviet Navy.

          Well, actually, ngaz turbines work great on solarium.
      7. +2
        22 July 2021 17: 54
        "Why the hell has surrendered to Russia ..."
        That's right!
        All the more so when large funds and efforts have been invested in the replacement of Ukrainian products.
        The novel proposed a utopian version, and even confused what "Zorya-mashproekt" produces, not marine diesel engines, but gas turbine engines, which Saturn had already replaced.
        But this is forgivable, he is not an expert. The very idea of ​​purchasing technologies, including factories (technological lines) is as old as the world.
        But they don't sell it all so easily ...
        Here you need to extract by all means and not complete factories, but key production secrets and samples of unique equipment or its components and parts.
      8. +3
        22 July 2021 17: 57
        For everything you have listed, I will not argue. But Motor is still working and will be able to work better if there are orders.
      9. +1
        22 July 2021 20: 22
        Quote: Finches
        in addition, Russia has already replaced the products of Ukrainian strategic enterprises with its own.

        how?
      10. 0
        23 July 2021 06: 27
        Quote: Finches
        Why the hell has surrendered to Russia a plant breathing in incense, and others too!

        And I think it's a very interesting idea. It is necessary to condition the continuation of cooperation on transit through UkrGTS, for example, by the purchase of "Zarya ...." Going for sale, okay. There will still be an evaluation expert commission, etc. But no, then it's easier for us to deny them transit. Say, "we with all our hearts ... and made an offer ... but ...". EE flows can be included in the same case. Ukraine is in a weak position today. Why not use this situation in the direction we need? Any of their responses to the proposal will be in our favor. This is simple chess - you surrender a pawn and you get a piece. Moreover, the initial steps do not require serious costs and immediate investments. But I think there will be a resonance from the expressed desire to help people, even in an unfriendly country. This is the "soft power" that we do not show very often.
        1. -2
          23 July 2021 10: 23
          Quote: Hagen
          It is necessary to condition the continuation of cooperation on transit through UkrGTS, for example, with the purchase of "Zarya ...."

          Like Roman's, this is NOT a feasible dream: the Americans, again, will not allow it. I am surprised how they allow Zarya to survive for the time being, cooperating with the Chinese "adored" by them ... No, Zarya has only two ways: either revival under the auspices of Russia, or collapse and disposal under American "friendly" oppression. What will be the option and the fate of "Zarya" - depends on the highest Russian authorities. Will this unique enterprise die like many ?????
      11. +1
        25 July 2021 17: 19
        I also think that this is nonsense. Not only that this plant in Ukraine has already collapsed, it will not receive anything from the Russian Federation from Ukraine, just as it did not receive the already paid turbines for frigates 11356. what can be taken with the help of intelligence, must be taken if there is something interesting
    2. +2
      22 July 2021 17: 11
      Roman-was it a bad joke? Motor Sich got money for the engines, we didn't see not the first, not the second back, and you want to give them another hundreds of millions of dollars? The Yankees won't let us get the engines, they will buy them out and destroy them, but they will everything so that Russia does not receive ANYTHING necessary for our military-industrial complex from uk-Roiny.
    3. 0
      22 July 2021 17: 55
      "Motor Sich" does not make ship-borne gas turbine engines, it is the Nikolaev NPO "Zarya - Mashproekt"
      1. 0
        23 July 2021 10: 58
        Quote: TermNachTER
        "Motor Sich" does not make ship-borne gas turbine engines, it is the Nikolaev NPO "Zarya - Mashproekt"

        ICHH, Motor Sich did not just start to sever ties with the Russian Federation, but continued to supply helicopter and aircraft engines in various ways. Otherwise, it is very difficult to explain the excess of the production of helicopters with TV3-117 over the production of sets of domestic engines for them (for several years). As well as the delivery of helicopters and airplanes with engines that do not have import substitution at all and are produced only in Ukraine. smile
        1. 0
          23 July 2021 12: 22
          Well, there is such a piece of paper - "final user certificate", with which the engines entered Russia. Although it is possible that some of them went "to the left". Those engines, which for Russia, went through Belarus, the Baltic States and Germany.
  2. +10
    22 July 2021 15: 11
    Again invest in someone else's industry.
    A reliable plan like a Swiss watch ...

    When the dawn finally bends, the frames will move by themselves. And it is obvious that most are clearly not in Siemens
    1. +6
      22 July 2021 15: 53
      Quote: Yaroslav Zhigulin
      Again invest in someone else's industry.

      You just have to make it yours. That's all.
      Together with the entire territory, which is Russia - Small, New, South. This is all our land and our people.
      And power comes and goes.
      And the owner usually changes easily (I'm talking about a business and interesting assets).
      And the first step has been taken - the guarantor wrote the article.
      That this is all ours.
      It remains only to enter into property rights.
      And "Motor Sich" can simply be taken for debts. The very same ones - that were given under British guarantees in 2013. There also ran into interest. Moreover, the plant is now nationalized, and therefore state-owned. Here for the state debts and withdraw it.
      Like Zoryu-Mashproekt, it is a good plant, one of the world leaders. Was. Yes, and now it remains - to China, components (critical) for the turbines of their entire fleet are stamped ... for the Indian fleet, which is not weakly under construction, power plant assemblies are supplied. No competences have been lost there, and we need such a plant as air.
      So we must take it.
      Together with its territory and people.
      And local experts will deal with non-humans there.
      Fast .
      As soon as the power is legal - Russian, it will be restored.
      1. 0
        22 July 2021 20: 25
        Quote: bayard
        Together with its territory and people


        Are you sure that people there want it so much?
        1. +2
          22 July 2021 23: 10
          I'm sure.
          I just know it.
          But very few people would dare to say this out loud.
          It's just that in 2014 this country, part of the Russian World, was captured by the Nazis ... part of the elites betrayed ... but Russia did not come to the rescue.
          So maybe it's TIME after all?
          Once and VVP became a writer. Articles writes ...?
          On the need to return the original Russian Lands.
          And people are waiting there.
          1. +1
            22 July 2021 23: 33
            On the need to return the original Russian Lands.
            And the people are waiting there

            They do not wait, there, in Ukraine, the infection of nationalism has spread since the Cossack freemen. Absolutely different mentality of the people, forced to survive for centuries under strong masters. Cunning and resourcefulness have shaped the modern character of the citizens of ukraine. But for their cunning, they already got a lot of trouble.
            1. +3
              23 July 2021 01: 02
              Quote: Konnick
              Cunning and resourcefulness have shaped the modern character of the citizens of ukraine. But for their cunning, they already got a lot of trouble.

              I remember one story from literature ... I don't remember the work and the author.
              An old grandfather in Siberia asks a young guy at a special settlement:
              - Boy, what kind of tribe are you going to be?
              - I am Ukrainian .
              - Ah ... so a Jew.
              Do you know what I mean?
              All the trick you described is from the Pale of Settlement.
              All the cunning are there in power and around it.
              But the people there are Russians.
              All this territory was settled from indigenous Russia. Toponymy, the name of cities, villages ... New Russia ... Novomoskovsk ... Yekaterinoslav ... there is in the memory of people from which Russian provinces their village was transferred.
              And there were also separate settlements of Serbs, Czechs, Greeks, Germans ... They, too, were all Russified. Do not watch their TV and other media - there is now a Sabbath worse than Goebel's. And the people there are Russians.
              Everything .
              In addition to Galicia, which was not in the Republic of Ingushetia at all, there the Austrian selection of such ghouls took away ...
              But her something - Galicia, you can cut it off. No pity . And to evict all Svidomo there too. It will not be difficult, because at first from there they spread throughout Ukraine according to Kravchuk's program - as "native speakers".
              Chechnya was not a Russian enclave ... not even a Slavic one ...
              Syria is a Muslim, Arab country ...
              Are they somehow better than the Russian people on Russian soil?
              Libya?
              Venezuela?
              CAR?
              What is wrong in the minds of "Russian inhabitants"?
              I am writing from Donetsk. I went through captivity and exchange of prisoners of war.
              But I do not have such obstinacy, such ideological and psychological blinders. I just know the nature of these things. Although I regularly hear characteristic sounds from the front line.
              Do you not understand why Caucasians treat you like that?
              In Russia itself?
              And other peoples, especially the Eastern ones?
              Who betrayed his family, betrayed himself. If you made your enemy your half-blood ... you are already dead. This is self-curse! Such people are not respected anywhere.
              Such a person cannot be strong.
              You cannot enter into an alliance with such!
              For he has betrayed his consanguineous.
              So what can people of other bloods expect from this?
              We stood up for our Russian name with arms in hand.
              We have been standing for the eighth year.
              And we look with amazement at the consanguineous.
              I do not know what the Kremlin writer has planned, maybe a new "trick", but what Solovyov, Skobeeva, etc., "engineers of human souls" have done with many ... I see ...
              And this is bad .
              Very bad .
              We did not climb for one Donbass. For the entire Russian World, no matter how pretentious it may sound.
              For this, many very good people gave their lives ...
              And the Solovyov-Skobeevs brought up this ...
              1. +1
                23 July 2021 11: 22
                Quote: bayard
                And we look with amazement at the consanguineous.

                So we are looking with amazement how two regions of Ukraine (or rather what is left of them) cannot unite in eight years in the face of a common threat and in each region their kings rule, apparently they like the power more than your people. Well, tell us why your Russian spirit does not allow you to unite even during the war, since you are rolling out such reproaches to us?
                Quote: bayard
                We did not climb for one Donbass. For the entire Russian World,

                First, you will unite in the Donbass, and only then you will speak for the whole Russian world. By the way, many Russian people died and were wounded in Yugoslavia, succumbing to the feelings of fraternal help in the early nineties. Take an interest in how Yugoslavia ended and the fate of our volunteers who fought there - you can understand how sometimes noble impulses end.
                In the meantime, hope that when your overwhelming population becomes Russian citizens - and not everyone wants that - then unification with Russia may take place under certain conditions, and you will not dictate to us how and when this should happen.
                1. +1
                  23 July 2021 13: 46
                  Quote: ccsr
                  So we look with amazement how two regions of Ukraine (more precisely, what is left of them) cannot unite in eight years in the face of a common threat and in each region their kings rule,

                  Quote: ccsr
                  Well, tell us why your Russian spirit does not allow you to unite even during the war, since you are rolling out such reproaches to us?

                  Do you really know why it happened this way ??
                  Seriously ?
                  Remind you of the role of a certain top official by the name of Dudaev (known by another pseudonym)? About the role of "the people of Chubais and Khodorkovsky" who, under the patronage of this remarkable man, carried out personnel policy here? Are they still doing it to this day?
                  About the fate of the commanders and leaders of the militia of the first wave, as a result of this personnel policy?
                  Resistance, due to its spontaneity, arose focal, around the emerging leaders, in the conditions of the punitive operation that had begun, coordination was improving during the outbreak of the war ... And who strenuously interfered with this?
                  Who, having entered into an agreement with the local princelings-oligarchs, pushed them to the top, and then into the power of their people?
                  Who prevented the republics from uniting?
                  Who ruined the Novorossiya movement in the bud, under whose flag this struggle began?
                  The militia fought with the flag of New Russia on chevrons ...
                  Who did all this?
                  Sami ?!
                  Not !
                  The specially authorized people are in league with the "right".
                  And we got the swamp that is.
                  Customs (!!!) established between the republics !!!
                  Yourself?
                  We are not at all funny.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  First, you will unite in Donbass, and only then you will speak for the whole Russian world

                  To this I have already answered. Now about the Russian World.
                  In Donetsk and Lugansk, the resistance resisted because people from all over Ukraine gathered here, an assemblage point happened here and liberation was supposed to come from here. Therefore, they fought under the flag of New Russia. Both in the DPR and in the LPR.
                  Why did they surrender Mariupol, which had already been abandoned by the troops of the putschists and the natsbats?
                  By conspiracy.
                  And not selflessly.
                  The city is half a million! Seaport ! Russian city!
                  We have many natives of it fought.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  By the way, many Russian people died and were wounded in Yugoslavia, succumbing to the feelings of fraternal help in the early nineties. Take an interest in how Yugoslavia ended and the fate of our volunteers who fought there - you can understand how sometimes noble impulses end.

                  I knew people who passed through Yugoslavia, they also fought with us. Someone continues.
                  And what is an example?
                  When did the full force of NATO fall on a small European country?
                  Is it surprising that one could not resist a hundred?
                  I talked with one documentary filmmaker, he lived in Yugoslavia for 5 years ...
                  So what do you want to reproach me with?
                  By the fact that Yugoslavia was left without help?
                  Circumstances ?
                  Are you to blame?
                  Should I have surrendered in time?
                  When an enemy comes to your house with a sword, grab what you have and defend yourself! Oneself, family, children, the right to life and the right to a home!
                  So what (!) Did the Yugoslavs do wrong?
                  Defending your home?
                  Quote: ccsr
                  In the meantime, hope that when you have an overwhelming population of Russian citizens

                  smile And a miracle will happen. Yes
                  Why was the procedure turned up so that this process will last until Makovkin's spell?
                  BUT ?
                  Is it different?
                  Quote: ccsr
                  then it is possible that unification with Russia will take place on certain conditions,

                  what
                  Maybe ... maybe ... someday ...
                  What are you talking about ?
                  We are Russia.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  and you will not dictate to us how and when it should happen.

                  Yes, others dictate to you ...
                  Quote: bayard
                  We stood up for our Russian name with arms in hand.
                  We have been standing for the eighth year.

                  Well, while you rest ...
                  Get busy with central Africa ...
                  Why then did the writer write the article?
                  The election?
                  1. 0
                    23 July 2021 17: 56
                    Quote: bayard
                    Do you really know why it happened this way ??
                    Seriously ?

                    Tell me, I'll listen.
                    Quote: bayard
                    Customs (!!!) established between the republics !!!
                    Yourself?
                    We are not at all funny.

                    And you that are small children, do not have your own opinion, and you cannot establish your own rules?
                    Quote: bayard
                    So what (!) Did the Yugoslavs do wrong?

                    They lost their statehood even before the NATO bombing in the early nineties.
                    Quote: bayard
                    Why was the procedure turned up so that this process will last until Makovkin's spell?

                    This will show how much you want to become citizens of Russia. Some people from Donbass do not rush to Russia at all - we passed through Crimea, there are people who are dissatisfied with becoming Russian citizens even now.
                    Quote: bayard
                    We are Russia.

                    And then who do you think we are? I wonder, would you rush to Russia if the Ukrainians gave you what you asked for in 2014 in the form of autonomy?
                    1. +1
                      24 July 2021 00: 23
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Tell me, I'll listen.

                      Listen to Strelkov, he has already told everything.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      And you that are small children, do not have your own opinion, and you cannot establish your own rules?

                      Here's like a military man, and asking questions for children. Here the war is going on and whoever in their right mind will arrange civil strife to the delight of the enemy. Here are the consensus of the "right people".
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Quote: bayard
                      So what (!) Did the Yugoslavs do wrong?

                      They lost their statehood even before the NATO bombing in the early nineties.

                      The same can be said about the Russian Federation, read the 1993 Constitution.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      This will show how much you want to become citizens of Russia.

                      People here have shown everything for a long time, both by the referendum in 2014 and by their struggle.
                      Everything else is a circus.

                      Quote: ccsr
                      Some from Donbass do not rush to Russia at all

                      Some in the Russian Federation are eager to defeat their country in the geopolitical struggle.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      we passed it in the Crimea, there and now there are dissatisfied that they became Russian citizens.

                      We passed this in Crimea. Many who continued in Donbass started in Crimea. But our plans were not limited to Crimea.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      there and now there are dissatisfied

                      There are also many dissatisfied people in the Russian Federation. So what ?
                      Quote: ccsr
                      And then who do you think we are?

                      request
                      ... They argued between Voronezh and Ussuriysk - which of them is Russia ...
                      Quote: ccsr
                      I wonder, would you rush to Russia if the Ukrainians gave you what you asked for in 2014 in the form of autonomy?

                      Quote: bayard
                      We are Russia.

                      In 2014, the Russian Federation had a golden chance to reunite its lands and become Russia.
                      That's clearer ?
                      Quote: ccsr
                      And then who do you think we are?

                      RF.
                      And together - Russia.
                      In the meantime, Russia is where blood is shed for its name.
                      1. -1
                        24 July 2021 10: 03
                        Quote: bayard
                        The same can be said about the Russian Federation, read the 1993 Constitution.

                        So I proceed from this that after the collapse of the USSR, none of the Ukrainians, including those from Donbass, was eager to unite with Russia, even as it happened with Belarus, which entered the union state. So why should we believe that after 2014 you were on fire with the union, if 23 years before that you had not dreamed of it? Bandera supporters pressed you, so you immediately remembered about Russia, and even then many immediately left the Donbass, like the smell of fried. I saw enough of them in Crimea, how these refugees, healthy men, sat out.
                        Quote: bayard
                        ... They argued between Voronezh and Ussuriysk - which of them is Russia ...

                        For many years of independence, I have not seen the desire of the Ukrainians to be with Russia in a union state, which means that all your wishes are not confirmed by anything in the bulk of the population of Ukraine.
                        Quote: bayard
                        In 2014, the Russian Federation had a golden chance to reunite its lands and become Russia.

                        By violent means? And how could we re-educate the Banderaites, even if Stalin did not complete this matter.
                        Quote: bayard
                        That's clearer ?

                        I remember very well the dialogue with some Donbass residents at the Zhuk forum, who stubbornly argued to me that Russia was obliged to share the proceeds from the sale of oil and gas with the Ukrainians, because they once also participated in the development of fields during the Soviet era. The majority of the population of Ukraine had such a dependent psychology, and I know that very well.
                        Quote: bayard
                        In the meantime, Russia is where blood is shed for its name.

                        I have always been and will be on the side of the residents of Donbass, believing that this is part of Russia, but not all residents of Donbass think as I do, and therefore I think that we need to be very careful about the process of unification, which in my opinion will take place. As an example, Abkhazia, in which there are probably more Russian citizens than in Donbass in percentage terms, but they are not eager to unite, although at first they seemed to have dreamed about it too. But they receive Russian pensions and use all subsidies. And we need it - have you ever thought about it?
                      2. 0
                        24 July 2021 17: 26
                        Quote: ccsr
                        So I proceed from this and proceed that after the collapse of the USSR, none of the Ukrainians, including those from Donbass, was eager to unite with Russia.

                        What do you even know about this? The overwhelming majority of the citizens of the USSR voted for the preservation of the Soviet Union. And the inhabitants of the Ukrainian SSR too.
                        And who heard their opinion?
                        After the abolition of the USSR, people were deceived, saying that the CIS is the USSR, only the name has changed. Then, over the course of a year, Ukraine (and not only) was thrown out of the ruble zone ... I remember that very well, because of this, very serious deals broke through with me then. And it was the Yeltsin Russian Federation that was separated and closed at the same time.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        as happened with Belarus, which entered the union state.

                        Well, how do you like this "Union State"?
                        Is this really a state? lol
                        Belarus sucked from the Russian Federation worse than Ukraine, in terms of size and population. But Luka was much more cunning and resourceful than the regularly changing princes of Krajina-U. You calculate how much the Russian Federation has cost such a Union State. smile And how did Luke behave after the reunification of Crimea?
                        As an ally?
                        By "state"?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        So why should we believe that after 2014 you were inflamed with the union, if 23 years before that you had not dreamed of it?

                        smile lol Who flared up?
                        You probably don't know what during all these years of disunity the Russian Federation did EVERYTHING to prevent the appearance of a Russian political party or an authoritative movement in Ukraine. And the political power of "Ukraine" instantly suppressed any attempts to create such. The authorities ransacked their offices, arrested and imprisoned people, did not allow them to participate in elections, cut off all sources of funding, destroyed businesses ... Did you know about this? smile
                        True ? smile
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Bandera supporters pressed you, so you immediately remembered about Russia,

                        Russian people have never forgotten about Russia. For we are Russia.
                        Who is the "Mother of Russian Cities"?
                        Where is the capital of New Russia?
                        Who have you been listening to all this time?
                        The Pale of Settlement rules both in Ukraine and in the Russian Federation, and they have long ago divided our Motherland into their estates. And she does everything politics - the devil.
                        And the people, as they were Russian, remained.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I saw enough of them in Crimea, how these refugees, healthy men, sat out.

                        Something tells me that if something like this happened in the Russian Federation (knocking on wood), a few Muscovites will rush into the militia and the barricades ... most will run the same way.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        For many years of independence, I have not seen the desire of the Ukrainians to be with Russia in a union state, which means that all your wishes are not confirmed by anything in the bulk of the population of Ukraine.

                        And here many quietly hoped that after Yanukovych had not signed an agreement with the EU in Vilnius, Ukraine had a direct path to the CU. When this news came, I bought champagne for my employees, the girls started dancing with joy. And when the Russian Federation allocated a tied loan for 15 billion dollars. and sent a huge commission to Ukraine in the fall of 2013 to evaluate Ukrainian enterprises for investments and include them in the program of rearmament of the Army and other cooperation, everyone became confident - well, now for sure, if not in a single state, but with a single Union ... But the US threw $ 5 billion on the coup. , and he took place and won.
                        And the reaction to the victory of the putschists was immediate - a rally movement began in all cities, especially in the South-East. The putschists responded with terror. For a month and a half or two, massacres regularly took place on the streets of cities (we recall Kharkov, Odessa, Nikolaev, Mariupol, Zaporozhye, before everyone else they suppressed resistance in Dnepropetrovsk - there just people began to disappear). The main assembly point was to be Kharkov - undoubtedly a Russian city, the first capital of the Ukrainian USSR. Its mayor and governor went to Moscow with a proposal to transfer the region to Russian jurisdiction following the example and precedent of the Crimea ... Do you know what they were told?
                        "There are no such plans and DESIRE in Russia!"
                        And when Kharkov was suppressed, the surviving activists from all cities of Ukraine gathered in Donetsk and Lugansk. Where the local authorities did not sympathize with them at all ... But the people thought differently. And the people themselves took power into their own hands.
                        The oligarchs' henchmen would not have done anything if it had not been for this popular wave.
                        The people began to spontaneously arm themselves with whatever they could, support was provided by security officials and veterans. The huge role of the Union of Veterans of Donbass (SVD) "Berkut", the Union of Soviet Officers ... A branch of the "Oplot" defeated in Kharkov appeared in Donetsk ... many employees of the Ministry of Internal Affairs joined the Militia ...
                        And from the Kremlin at that time there were calls ... "to postpone, postpone the Referendum" ... and the promise to stand behind the backs of our women and children ... is worth it.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Quote: bayard
                        In 2014, the Russian Federation had a golden chance to reunite its lands and become Russia.

                        By violent means? And how could we re-educate the Banderaites, even if Stalin did not complete this matter to the end?

                        We would have re-educated them. We know how and we know how to do it. And there are not so many of them as you think from afar. Especially then - in the spring of 2014.
                        And Comrade Stalin exterminated them by the forces of the NKVD troops and took them to Siberian camps. No right of return. Imprisonment for them was replaced by a settlement. Supervised.
                        But Khrushchev released them and returned them back. It was he and his followers who became their patrons and protectors.
                        And one of their juvenile messengers later became the second secretary of the Communist Party of the Ukrainian SSR and "the first president of Ukraine."
                        And the people have always despised them.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I remember very well the dialogue with some Donbass residents at the Zhuk forum, who stubbornly argued to me that Russia is obliged to share the proceeds from the sale of oil and gas with the Ukrainians,

                        Solovyov and Skobeeva with Co. today, and not such freaks are dragged to the screens of the Russian Federation.
                        Before the coup, Ukraine was a completely self-sufficient state, and even for many years without having any preferences from the Russian Federation on the price of gas and oil, it had quite a decent standard of living, social guarantees, a pension system without fashionable tricks, as in the Russian Federation with PPF. During the years of Yanukovych's premiership, the rate of economic growth was significantly higher than that of the Russian Federation and even held the 1st place in Europe at this rate. Some years . Oil and gas free. With gas prices higher than in Germany.
                        And if nominally the average salary level was 1,5-2 times lower than in the Russian Federation, then consumer prices were 1,5-2 times lower than Russian ones.
                        The tax legislation was very soft and comfortable. There were several million private entrepreneurs and self-employed people who, in turn, created jobs for their employees.
                        + climate, geography and the absence of social upheavals for a long time.
                        Life was not conducive to ordinary people to rush somewhere. Especially until they got into the soul, into the family. Until they touched their language, culture, morality.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The majority of the population of Ukraine had such a dependent psychology, and I know that very well.

                        I repeat, before the coup, the level of consumption of the Ukrainian population was approximately equal to that in the Russian Federation, and this despite the absence of its own oil and gas. The economy of Ukraine was based on industry and agriculture. And about half of all Ukraine's exports went to the Russian Federation. And that was industrial export.
                        And what percentage of the RF budget is oil and gas revenues?
                        think about it before you write about nonsense that would have to feed someone.
                        Ukraine held the 3rd place in the world grain export, while Russia was the 2nd.
                        Now the Russian Federation has the 1st place in the world for this position.
                        And by combining the potentials, Russia would have a monopoly on the world grain market.
                      3. 0
                        24 July 2021 18: 07
                        Quote: bayard

                        What do you even know about this? The overwhelming majority of the citizens of the USSR voted for the preservation of the Soviet Union. And the inhabitants of the Ukrainian SSR too.

                        Don't tell me fairy tales - all my relatives lived in Ukraine and I found myself disconnected from my loved ones. I know perfectly well everything that has happened in Ukraine all these years, so I absolutely do not believe you.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, how do you like this "Union State"?
                        Is this really a state?

                        This is a normal alliance - they are not our enemies, unlike the Ukrainians.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Where is the capital of New Russia?

                        I don’t know this, because even in the Donbass two regions are separated.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The Russian Federation did EVERYTHING to prevent the appearance of a Russian political party or an authoritative movement in Ukraine.

                        Of course, Russia is to blame that you cannot unite YOURSELF.
                        Quote: bayard
                        But the US threw $ 5 billion on the coup. , and he took place and won.

                        The staff bought you, and you yourself wanted it - the citizens of Ukraine liked lace panties more than cooperation with Russia.
                        Quote: bayard
                        We would have re-educated them.

                        Just don’t tell me about it - I know the Westerners well, figs would you have what happened.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The tax legislation was very soft and comfortable.

                        All your tax legislation only encouraged bribery, which is why those who are not accustomed to honestly paying taxes howled in Crimea - I saw it all.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And by combining the potentials, Russia would have a monopoly on the world grain market.

                        First, change the heads of the Ukrainians, then it will be possible to talk about something seriously.
                      4. 0
                        24 July 2021 22: 06
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Don't tell me fairy tales - all my relatives lived in Ukraine and I found myself disconnected from my loved ones. I know perfectly well everything that has happened in Ukraine all these years, so I absolutely do not believe you.

                        Well, wow, but I have all my relatives in Russia. Great relatives.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, how do you like this "Union State"?
                        Is this really a state?

                        This is a normal alliance - they are not our enemies, unlike the Ukrainians.

                        Not enemies?
                        Do you remember the case of the Wagnerites?
                        Who did he call the Russian Federation then?
                        And who are friends?
                        So when was he sincere?
                        And who in Belarus all these years has nurtured and financed its own Bandera supporters? Is it Luca?
                        And the Belarusians who fought in our prison were imprisoned.
                        But the former fighter of "Azov" he now has a national hero.
                        What is there about once betrayed?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Quote: bayard
                        Where is the capital of New Russia?

                        I don’t know this, because even in the Donbass two regions are separated.

                        I'm talking about the historical capital of Novorossiya in the Republic of Ingushetia.
                        It was Yekaterinoslav.
                        And it was not Ukraine at all.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Of course, Russia is to blame that you cannot unite YOURSELF.

                        Then there was no need to unite with anyone. Then the Russian Federation sacredly vowed its separatism from the rest of Russia and drove away from itself with a nasty broom all those who wanted to restore a single state.
                        You should have known THIS.
                        When Crimea in 1992 held a referendum on sovereignty and reunification with the Russian Federation, what did the Russian Federation answer?
                        Well, at least she accepted Meshkova.
                        When, on the anti-fascist wave, it was possible to return the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR to a single state ... what was done?
                        The criminals who committed the armed coup d'etat were recognized as the legitimate government!
                        They continued to be supplied with fuel for armored vehicles (later Belarus did this too) and even engines for tanks (remember the scandal with Deripaska?).
                        Can't we unite ourselves?
                        Or someone doesn't?
                        What is the role of citizen Dudaev in this?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The staff bought you, and you yourself wanted it - the citizens of Ukraine liked lace panties more than cooperation with Russia.

                        They bought you. Threats, sanctions, access to markets, to your accounts in Switzerland, Cyprus and other London, Luxembourg and Virgin Islands. Yes
                        And we have a war for the eighth year. Our people are dying and we have no time for your fantasies.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Quote: bayard
                        We would have re-educated them.

                        Just don’t tell me about it - I know the Westerners well, figs would you have what happened.

                        I don’t need pink ponies, we will succeed. This is all much simpler than people think. And it has been successfully tested for a long time.
                        We know them, but you never dreamed of that.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        All your tax legislation only encouraged bribery, which is why those who are not accustomed to honestly paying taxes howled in Crimea - I saw it all.

                        No, it is your tax legislation that cultivates it in monstrous forms. At all levels .
                        And before the coup, most of the millions of entrepreneurs were on a single tax - purely symbolic ... By your standards, none at all.
                        Therefore, there was no reason to give bribes.
                        And here you have .... to remind about the billionaire colonels?
                        About the governors?
                        Mayors?
                        Traffic cops?
                        They are good everywhere and will take their own, we have lost the habit of this in the war ...
                        But for small local officials to collect SUCH sums in bribes ... yes, you are perhaps the record holders.
                        In China, these are shot and the family is sent an invoice for the spent cartridge.
                        And of course confiscation. Yes
                        And you ? smile
                        HOW do you fight bribery? smile
                        For the last 10 years of doing business, I have never had to pay a bribe. Well, maybe some signs of attention, small gifts, as in ordinary life. And never with money.
                        Do not believe?
                        It's just my lifestyle.
                        How often did you give bribes?
                        Quote: ccsr

                        First, change the heads of the Ukrainians, then it will be possible to talk about something seriously.

                        This is a very correct decision, heads must be changed.
                        And that’s it.
                      5. 0
                        24 July 2021 23: 59
                        I will add and correct a little: Russia is already the only country in the world where billionaire traffic cops with golden toilets have appeared. And the deputies of small subsidized towns have incomes of tens of millions of rubles a year - more than the budget of the settlement entrusted to them. And they all have overseas property.
                      6. 0
                        25 July 2021 09: 55
                        Quote: bayard
                        Do you remember the case of the Wagnerites?

                        As far as I know, they were released. And the fact that the Ukrainian special services lit them like suckers, just tells who our enemy is.
                        Quote: bayard
                        I'm talking about the historical capital of Novorossiya in the Republic of Ingushetia.
                        It was Yekaterinoslav.
                        And it was not Ukraine at all.

                        Now it is Ukraine and it is unlikely that it will become a Russian city. But you can dream.
                        Quote: bayard
                        What is the role of citizen Dudaev in this?

                        You must have your own brains - I think so. Otherwise, what kind of Russian are you then, if you cannot think and make decisions on your own?
                        Quote: bayard
                        They bought you. Threats, sanctions, access to markets, to your accounts in Switzerland, Cyprus and other London, Luxembourg and Virgin Islands

                        Why are you so freedom-loving to climb to us then? Remain independent like Transnistria or South Ossetia, for example, and that's the end of it.

                        Quote: bayard
                        I don’t need pink ponies, we will succeed.

                        I didn’t notice that in Ukraine something was good with Bandera.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And before the coup, most of the millions of entrepreneurs were on a single tax - purely symbolic ... By your standards, none at all.
                        Therefore, there was no reason to give bribes.

                        That is why Ukraine became bankrupt and only dreamed of living at the expense of Russia.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And you ?

                        Well, since it's so bad with us, why are you cramming into our friends? Live with your world order, and we will somehow equip our country without your help.
                        Quote: bayard
                        For the last 10 years of doing business, I have never had to pay a bribe. Well, maybe some signs of attention, small gifts, as in ordinary life. And never with money.
                        Do not believe?

                        I have been working in small business for 25 years, and I know what was happening in Ukraine better than you, because I saw how it was going there when I went there. So your example does not impress me - I immediately saw the ins and outs of the Ukrainian business when I was offered to pay in stores in dollars, rubles or hryvnias. It was the same at gas stations.
                        Quote: bayard
                        How often did you give bribes?

                        Yes, a couple of times he gave a bribe to Ukrainian daishniks, when these bastards stupidly stopped me, without making any claims and began to extort money, seeing my Russian license plates, my wife and child in the car. I will not tell you about how I was shaken more than once at the crossing in Goptivka because I refused to give a bribe, you believe in the honesty of Ukrainian officials, so you will consider it untrue.
                        Quote: bayard
                        This is a very correct decision, heads must be changed.

                        can you do it? While in the Donbass it is imperceptible ...
                      7. 0
                        25 July 2021 11: 50
                        Quote: ccsr
                        They were let go as far as I know

                        Did he let go of his own free will?
                        Or after his "faithful friends and allies", "True friends who have proved their loyalty", wanted to kill him - Luka? And in the country to make a coup following the example of the Ukrainian one?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And the fact that the Ukrainian special services lit them like suckers, just says who is our enemy.

                        lol laughing It was he who was bred as a sucker. With his KGB and security service. fool
                        He turned out to be the very sly who outwitted himself.
                        And the fact that they managed to deceive ordinary boys ... well, they are a lesson, the MGB and the FSB are a minus.
                        But Luke believed in divorce with readiness and joy.
                        And a wagon of shit on Mother Russia heaped with satisfaction and bile.
                        And after a few days he was spinning like in a frying pan, looking for support ...
                        Friend ?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Quote: bayard
                        What is the role of citizen Dudaev in this?

                        You must have your own brains - I think so. Otherwise, what kind of Russian are you then, if you cannot think and make decisions on your own?

                        And if this is the special representative of the main grandfather of the Kremlin?
                        We worked with him in neighboring offices at the dawn of the 90s, but did not know each other personally.
                        Quote: ccsr

                        Why are you so freedom-loving to climb to us then? Remain independent like Transnistria or South Ossetia, for example, and that's the end of it.

                        It is not for you to judge this. Let me just remind you that, solely by the will of the Kremlin, these lands are still not part of the United State. The main source of separatism since 1991 has been the Kremlin. Remind Belovezhie?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I didn’t notice that in Ukraine something was good with Bandera.

                        We made it .
                        Quote: ccsr
                        That is why Ukraine became bankrupt and only dreamed of living at the expense of Russia.

                        Before the coup, it was not bankrupt at all, the external debt was insignificant, the requested loan at the end of 2013 was needed for reforms and investments, and the coup was crippled by the coup by a conspiracy of oligarchs and external enemies. RF faced the same.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I have been working in small business for 25 years, and I know what happened in Ukraine better than you,

                        You can't know better than me.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        when I was offered to pay in stores in dollars, rubles or hryvnia. It was the same at gas stations.

                        Well, if the store or gas station is private and you just wanted to be helped, what's wrong with that? Traditionally, people kept their savings in dollars or euros, insuring against currency instability, and rubles were needed to travel to relatives in the Russian Federation. What confused you about this? Why did the tax authorities not run after them with fines?
                        We didn't run. It was simply forbidden for them. So as not to violate social stability.
                        Is it surprising that after such a free life, the Russian rules turned out to be uncomfortable for many Crimeans? And they were indignant at this or expressed displeasure?
                        In the Russian Federation itself, the population and business are also outraged by the tax policy of the state. And often quite rightly.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Yes, a couple of times I gave a bribe to Ukrainian daishniks when these bastards stupidly stopped me

                        Well this is "sacred" lol , this is their bread and butter. True, I have never given such bribes ... although sometime in the 90s I had to go to Russia ... in a situation similar to yours.
                        So let's leave the bickering, the conversation began with the fact that the writer wrote an article. About a single people.
                      8. 0
                        25 July 2021 12: 27
                        Quote: bayard
                        Before the coup, it was not bankrupt at all, the external debt was insignificant, the requested loan at the end of 2013 was needed for reforms and investments, and the coup was crippled by the coup by a conspiracy of oligarchs and external enemies. RF faced the same.

                        She went bankrupt, and it began with the theft of gas long before 2013. Russia may have faced difficulties, it has never solved them at the expense of Ukraine.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The main source of separatism since 1991 is the Kremlin. Remind Belovezhie?

                        Is it the Kremlin's fault that Ukraine, even in the CIS, did not want to cooperate like everyone else?
                        You have been too cunning all this time, so it is not the Kremlin that matters.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, if the store or gas station is private and you just wanted to be helped, what's wrong with that?

                        And how did this go through the cash registers? Do you have any idea what tax discipline is, about which there are wild ideas in Ukraine. And then you wonder why you have to beg for loans.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And they were indignant at this or expressed displeasure?

                        And they still express dissatisfaction that it was easier to steal under Ukraine.
                        Quote: bayard
                        So let's leave the bickering, the conversation began with the fact that the writer wrote an article. About a single people.

                        I do not believe in the same people with us who live in Ukraine. So I think Putin is wishful thinking.
                      9. 0
                        25 July 2021 14: 34
                        Quote: ccsr
                        She went bankrupt, and it began with the theft of gas long before 2013. Russia may have faced difficulties, it has never solved them at the expense of Ukraine.

                        It was not bankruptcy, but the dope and greed of the orange. Then a certain "lady" in the rank of prime minister was freaking out, for which she paid with a prison term. But before that, she made the Russian Federation the greatest possible service - a contract for the purchase of gas at a price of $ 100 higher than the European one ... and linking the discount to the issue of Sevastopol.
                        You should be grateful to her.
                        And thanks to its bzdyks, the Northern and Southern gas streams have now been built (and then conceived). You should be grateful to her - she saved you from the onerous Yeltsin agreement with a fixed gas price. 50 dollars each. for 1000 cubic meters, if you forgot.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Is it the Kremlin's fault that Ukraine, even in the CIS, did not want to cooperate like everyone else?
                        You were too cunning all this time, so it's not the Kremlin that matters

                        The answer is wrong. Ukraine and other former republics were kicked out of the single currency zone by the Russian Federation in the fall of 1992.
                        And the cunning of Ukraine from the line. The Russian Federation is also ruled by the devil. And the conditional Deripaska does not differ at all from the conditional Firtash. They are all brothers.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, if the store or gas station is private and you just wanted to be helped, what's wrong with that?

                        And how did this go through the cash registers? Do you have any idea what tax discipline is?

                        You do not understand that there was SUCH TAX LEGISLATION in Ukraine. Almost all small businesses were on the Single Tax, which is about 200 - 400 hryvnia per month and no checks.
                        Do you understand?
                        This went on for years, there were millions of self-employed private entrepreneurs.
                        It was the Law.
                        And then came the orders of the Russian Federation, which radically differed from the previous ones. And not only by the amounts of fees, but also by the reporting system. And tens of thousands of people in Crimea were hanged with an uncomfortable clamp. Is it marvelous that they murmur to this day?
                        So do not be surprised when you are told that life in Ukraine was much more comfortable before the coup.
                        And this is without oil and gas, without extortions from the population and disgusting experiments with pension funds. On industry, agriculture, excise taxes, duties and VAT.
                        But even without huge spending on defense, navy, space and other attributes.
                        But there was free medicine, a state pension system, social guarantees and payments. And all without much fanfare and hysterics.
                        It was .
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You've been too cunning all this time

                        Everyone who was dispersed by the Kremlin together with the USSR became such. Do not absolve yourself of responsibility, the role of the Kremlin and the CPSU in the collapse of the Union and Putin regularly emphasizes.
                        The Russian Federation has lost all the former Soviet republics for itself. Everything ! Is that Belarus will now be able to return, and even then thanks to the hopelessness of the situation for Lukashenka.
                        And all the former republics migrated to the camp of the enemies of the Russian Federation. Or close to it.
                        So there is nothing to blow a bubble of your cheeks
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I do not believe in the same people with us who live in Ukraine.

                        The decision is not for you to make.
                        And the one who accepts wrote the article.
                        And as they decide for you, so you will accept.
                        Perhaps you will grumble with discontent, like some small entrepreneurs in Crimea ... But who will hear you.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And they still express dissatisfaction that it was easier to steal under Ukraine.

                        In the Russian Federation, sometimes more mountains are stolen. smile
                        And this is incl. proves that this is one people.
                        Under one Line.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I think Putin is wishful thinking.

                        Maybe he is . Or maybe you.
                        Time will tell .
                      10. 0
                        25 July 2021 16: 57
                        Quote: bayard
                        You should be grateful to her.

                        We don’t care what you did there - the main thing is that it’s not at our expense. But you couldn't exist without it - Putin said that it cost us $ 82 billion.
                        Quote: bayard
                        You should be grateful to her - she saved you from the onerous Yeltsin agreement with a fixed gas price. 50 dollars each. for 1000 cubic meters, if you forgot.

                        The contract has a deadline, it was not open-ended. But if you want us to thank her, then it's a pity that all this did not happen earlier - sooner this clamp would be thrown off ourselves.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The answer is wrong. Ukraine and other former republics were kicked out of the single currency zone by the Russian Federation in the fall of 1992.

                        Here's the right answer if you don't know:
                        The Commonwealth of Independent States was established in December 1991. The corresponding agreement was signed by the heads of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. The CIS later included other republics of the former USSR, except for the Baltic countries. Ukraine did not sign the CIS Charter, therefore, although it was considered a member of the organization, it was not legally a member of it..
                        https://news.rambler.ru/world/39914797/?utm_content=news_media&utm_medium=read_more&utm_source=copylink
                        Quote: bayard
                        It was the Law.

                        Your law existed on cheap energy resources from Russia, and as they disappeared, everything flew with you along with your law.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And as they decide for you, so you will accept.

                        They have already accepted - they sent Ukraine with its GTS not only in Russia, but even in Europe, so that the future is obviously not in favor of the independent one.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Perhaps you will grumble with discontent, like some small entrepreneurs in Crimea ..

                        On the contrary, I am very glad that we finally untied with Ukraine in all directions - the Ukrainian GTS forced us to clatter with the Svidomo, now it's over.
                      11. 0
                        25 July 2021 18: 36
                        Quote: ccsr
                        - Putin said it cost us $ 82 billion.

                        Much more, actually. Even with regard to Belarus, it cost much more.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The contract has a deadline, it was not open-ended. But if you want us to thank her, then it's a pity that all this did not happen earlier - sooner this clamp would be thrown off ourselves.

                        There were deadlines and they were very burdensome, for they forced them to trade at a loss. I had very good contacts with leading specialists of the Russian Federation in this area (oil and gas), so I know about the conversations and sentiments in ministries and companies. And I was also glad that that ostentatious nonsense ended just like that, although I was already living in Ukraine then.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        ... Ukraine did not sign the CIS Charter, therefore, although it was considered a member of the organization, it was not legally a member of it.

                        But everyone was thrown out of the ruble zone at once. Not just Ukraine. And the payments got up ... My contracts then stuck ... and broke.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Your law existed on cheap energy resources from Russia, and as they disappeared, everything flew with you along with your law.

                        Very illiterate and pointless. The Law on the Single Tax existed for a long time (I don’t know how it is now, since the end of 2014 I was no longer there).
                        I tell you that private entrepreneurs worked on the Single Tax. And the reporting procedure was extremely simplified. And cash registers were optional for them (perhaps on their own initiative). This was done to relieve social tensions and stimulate self-employment of citizens. And it bore fruit. People are used to it.
                        But in the Russian Federation everything was different, more complicated, more expensive and more dreary in terms of procedures.
                        Therefore, people reacted to the complication and rise in the cost of tax and reporting procedures. It `s naturally .
                        And cheap or expensive energy sources have nothing to do with it. We started paying more for gas, but it was enough for us.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        They have already accepted - they sent Ukraine with its GTS not only in Russia, but even in Europe, so that the future is obviously not in favor of the independent one.

                        I deeply do not care about the Ukrainian GTS and the current leadership of this non-state - the front line is between us.
                        But, for your information, this GTS will now be dealt with by Germany and Co. to provide additional supplies to Europe. For the Russian Federation, this is good - not at its expense and under the control of Germany, and it also means that the volume of supplies will continue to grow.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        On the contrary, I am very glad that we finally untied with Ukraine in all directions.

                        Ooh, not all. But for gas transportation - to a large extent.
                        Much is yet to come.
                      12. 0
                        25 July 2021 20: 28
                        Quote: bayard
                        But in the Russian Federation everything was different, more complicated, more expensive and more dreary in terms of procedures.

                        You are definitely not in the subject, because in Russia they were putting things in order in the tax sphere and I myself was a witness to this, because from 1996 to this day I have been connected with tax reporting. And in Ukraine this was not even close - I know how they filed zero reports all in a row.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Ooh, not all.

                        In almost all cases, the only thing left to do is to return Ukrainian debts in courts, and everything will be fine.
                        Quote: bayard
                        But, for your information, this GTS will now be dealt with by Germany and Co. ,

                        We are not interested in this at all, after Ukraine refused to jointly operate the GTS with Russia. Now let the Europeans, like the Chinese, find out who they are dealing with.
  3. +7
    22 July 2021 15: 12
    And you must admit, until "Zorya" is completely torn apart, this is a very interesting and fat piece. And we just wouldn't have choked
    The Chinese got burned from the Motor Sich.
    No, unfortunately, there is no chance of getting the money back from China.

    Do we need to step on the same rake?
  4. +1
    22 July 2021 15: 16
    The main problem is precisely "through whom", but not in terms of the intermediary state, but in terms of hohlochinush. These parasites will easily and naturally betray everyone, just to get the same gesheft. And the factory of dead presidents can always print any amount ordered, unlike us. And we run the risk of finding ourselves in the same situation as China with Motor Sichu
  5. 0
    22 July 2021 15: 16
    It is clear that it is problematic to track the cash in the envelope ...
    Unnamed cards with not great amounts, not very anyone interested ...
    Significant sums, in the green nominated fanatics, will cause interest from those who know whom it is not necessary to look after whom it is not necessary to keep an eye on, and on everyone else, who will be controlled, and various fiscal troubles will not linger at all.
  6. +23
    22 July 2021 15: 22
    nonsense of a drunken hedgehog ... either investing a billion bucks in the purchase of a plant for the sake of obtaining a limited batch of engines instead of expanding the production of current ones in Russia is stupid
    1. +3
      22 July 2021 17: 06
      And what kind of Ukrainian engines are we talking about? The communists built everything there.
      1. +2
        22 July 2021 18: 06
        this is sophistry, and I look at it from the point of view of practice-1) no one will sell the plant to us even through third hands, and if they sell it, they will break a high price. 2) we have ALREADY completed the tests or they are already at the finish line and it turns out that we will have to halve the order for our factories to get the same Ukrainian engines? This is at least stupid, but at the most it smells like betrayal ... I understand if Saturn admitted that cannot start production .. but there is NO problem with this
  7. nnm
    +2
    22 July 2021 15: 28
    Colleague, you all write, of course, right, but there is one caveat ... USA! They perfectly see in which jurisdictions you opened the "seal" for the purchase, what company you bought ... they will know it instantly. And the purchase deal in Ukraine will be instantly canceled.
  8. +13
    22 July 2021 15: 30
    novel do you have a lot of money? buy the factory itself !! take it through all the gaskets to the first engine. it will track the path and all the grandmothers into the pit
  9. +8
    22 July 2021 15: 33
    Exactly, let's buy it, and then the Ukrainians will nationalize it. No, engines have to be built at home.
    1. +6
      22 July 2021 17: 21
      Eh, you did not work in production! Moreover, on high-tech. The line for growing monocrystalline turbine blades is a patented know-how, moreover, with an optimized geometry of the blade itself. It will take years to develop the design and the technical process associated with it. And for non-brothers this is already a settled issue. KKKKK A bunch of specialized institutes and factories have been doing this for decades. Here is Vniikompressormash in Sumy, and PTMZ with its design bureau, and the same Zorya, and Motorsich. Their specialists came to our aircraft repair shop specifically for the restoration of the blades. And the processing of shafts-rotors of turbines with a length of 8-10 meters with micron tolerances and balancing is still a pleasure. As well as the production of special steel blanks for them.
      1. 0
        22 July 2021 18: 33
        Quote: 113262
        And for non-brothers this is already a settled issue. KKKKK A bunch of specialized institutes and factories have been doing this for decades. Here is Vniikompressormash in Sumy, and PTMZ with its design bureau, and the same Zorya, and Motorsich.

        You describe everything so beautifully that I involuntarily have a question - which of the military representatives will control their products, if they start chemistry with "micron tolerances"? And who will answer when we buy such engines, and their resource turns out, for example, to be twice as low as stipulated in the contract? That again we are going to tear the hair on our heads, that we are surrounded by thick Ukrainians like suckers? Do you at least understand that, in principle, you cannot take products from Ukraine for military purposes after 2014, and this is a harsh reality that all military customers know about.
        So leave naive dreams, unless of course you specifically lobby the interests of Ukrainian producers.
        1. +1
          22 July 2021 22: 51
          Until the age of 14, did you have such thoughts? The people there are the same, and they will not cheat with the gauges. But what they abandoned ... Many do not think that Russia is not needed ... Those who are still alive ...
          1. 0
            23 July 2021 11: 04
            Quote: 113262
            Until the age of 14, did you have such thoughts?

            Of course, it did, which is why in 1996 all production for our strategic weapons systems was discontinued in the former republics of the USSR and their production began in Russia.
            Quote: 113262
            The people there are the same, and they will not cheat with the gauges.

            People will be ordered and they will go to Donbass to kill their own compatriots, so do not build illusions about the decency of Ukrainians in relation to Russia.
            Quote: 113262
            But what they abandoned ... Many do not think that Russia is not needed ... Those who are still alive ...

            The older generation in Ukraine does not decide anything, and it is time to come to terms with it. This is a cut-off piece, following the example of Poland, which was once part of the Russian Empire.
      2. +1
        22 July 2021 22: 20
        Quote: 113262
        And for non-brothers this is already a settled issue. KKKKK A bunch of specialized institutes and factories have been doing this for decades.

        And we have not decided? Monocrystalline blades were still on the AL-31F, produced since 1984 (developed under the leadership of A. M. Lyulka at NPO Saturn). If I am not mistaken, the temperature of the gases on the blades of the AL-31F turbine is 300 ° higher than the melting temperature of the metal from which the blade is made (it does not melt only due to the internal cooling system). It is even difficult to imagine what the “30” product is. Saturn also has an engine in development that does not need lubrication.
        1. +1
          22 July 2021 22: 48
          Clearly not a technologist! Working out the process in a growth machine takes up to two years with three-shift work. In addition to theorists, who work in white coats, both adjusters and designers who change the design of the blade and the parts attached to it on the fly. There is a struggle for every facet and bend. Do you think, why does RMZ and others like it take so long to tinker with turbines? They did not have the same specialization and had different tasks. And there are not enough free hands and heads. There are still heads, although one leg is already retired. With hands it is worse - young animals do not want to work with their hands. The late uncle worked from a young age at Nikolaevsky Shipbuilding, until his death he hoped that Russia would still take the city and the plant - he did not believe that they were not needed. so he died .. At 85, his head was still cooking .. And such are the majority.
        2. 0
          23 July 2021 08: 26
          For example, about the complex of problems to be solved for the new engine -here! Https: //tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11958939
          1. 0
            23 July 2021 11: 24
            Quote: 113262
            Oh death I hoped that Russia would take the city and the plant, did not believe that they were not needed. so pom

            And what does the new aircraft engine have to do with the ship's GTE, which was tested in 2008? Turbines for "Zorev" GTEs were originally supplied by "Saturn".
            Domestic gas turbine engines had two problems: there is no stand and there is no gearbox. There are already stands. Remained reducer. More precisely, the "Star" producing it.
      3. +1
        23 July 2021 11: 19
        Quote: 113262
        Eh, you did not work in production! Moreover, on high-tech. The line for growing monocrystalline turbine blades is a patented know-how, moreover, with an optimized geometry of the blade itself. It will take years to develop the design and the technical process associated with it. And for non-brothers, this is already a settled issue

        You seem to be a little unaware of the situation with the production of ship-borne gas turbine engines until 2014.
        On the Russian side, NPO Saturn OJSC (responsibility zone - power turbine), NPO Avrora FSUE (GTE, diesel and unit control systems), Kolomensky Zavod OJSC (diesel engine) participate in the cooperation on the creation of the unit. on the part of Ukraine - GP NPKG "Zorya - Mashproekt" (turbocharger and gearbox). The tests are carried out on the basis of the Ukrainian state enterprise RPC "Zorya-Mashproekt", since there is no bench base for testing offshore gas turbine units in Russia yet.
        © bmpd
        That is, the production of the turbines themselves in the Russian Federation does not need to be created from scratch - it was and is. In cooperation with the GTE, Ukraine was responsible only for the turbocharger, gearbox and testing of the assembled unit at the stand.
        The booth was "substituted" for imports on the Saturn. But with gearboxes, EMNIP, everything is not so good - because now the long-suffering "Zvezda" is responsible for them.
  10. +3
    22 July 2021 15: 35
    will not give a ride from the word at all, the plant on the outskirts, will it work and supply turbines to us through country X? yes at a time - two Banderlog will calculate and nationalize production, adopt the necessary law and dosvidos invested money
    1. +3
      22 July 2021 15: 47
      "Zorya" is still a state-owned enterprise from the "red list," if they sell, only 49%
    2. -1
      22 July 2021 18: 08
      if they do it, and in fact they can shit and make bookmarks in the power plants .. and they will burn along with the ships.
  11. +17
    22 July 2021 15: 36
    I didn't understand if this was an April Fool's joke or a test for a fool. Can he offer money to the Papuans and buy through them? The earth is round and "what's beyond the horizon" no one sees or recognizes. And after the prehistory with China described by the author himself, one could immediately write that these are delusional conclusions after a feast with Okoloradsky.
  12. 0
    22 July 2021 15: 37
    This should have been done earlier and much, but there was no time, they traded their own.
  13. -1
    22 July 2021 15: 38
    Something I have not heard that "Zorya" felt bad.
    Recently, the Turks, Britons, came to Zarya, Okean, Nibulon to assess the possibility of implementing projects on corvettes and missile boats.
    And not only the ship engine "Zarya" produces
    NPKG "Zorya-Mashproekt" in 2020 slightly increased net income from the sale of products UAH 3,542 billion against UAH 3,355 billion. in 2019
  14. +3
    22 July 2021 15: 45
    Why..
    Yes, because it is necessary to learn from other people's mistakes and china-motosich, an example.
  15. -5
    22 July 2021 15: 50
    Why buy something that you can just pick up?
    1. +2
      22 July 2021 18: 16
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      Why buy something that you can just pick up?

      so go and take it away soon, we will give you a medal and a star of the hero, what are we waiting for?
      1. -4
        23 July 2021 02: 46
        If it depended on me, I would take it. Crimea was taken, so what? Has the world collapsed?
        What am I waiting for? Yes, people like you are waiting, you can not tear off your ass. Or maybe you are afraid of offending Ukrainians? They have already offended us, and they crap on us from their whole wide Ukrainian soul, and whoever does not crap will only be glad. Or are you afraid of sanctions? Are you afraid to be left without trips to NATA countries for the weekend? Hmmm ...
        1. +1
          23 July 2021 08: 29
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          Crimea was taken, so what?

          Yes, nothing, Crimea was taken away, but they were pissed off to make ours! I'm in Yalta now, there is nothing of our life! Sberbank cards are not accepted everywhere, and Sberbank itself, like other banks' norms, is not, a day licks 300 rubles from the phone for Internet roaming !!! he is not in Russia ... Lukoil and Rosneft are not
          1. -2
            23 July 2021 15: 42
            It's nice that nothing. Maps, roaming, banks ... it's such a trifle - everything will settle down over time. For you there is no Crimea in Russia, for me there is - this is the difference between us.
            1. 0
              23 July 2021 16: 38
              Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
              Maps, roaming, banks ... it's such a trifle - everything will settle down over time.

              do you suffer from dualism? Crimea is not ours - a fact of one hundred thousand tourists from Russia !! and you see something else from the couch - this is a diagnosis! to the doctor - then fall into stupid scribbling .... Crimea is nobody's for today!
              1. -2
                23 July 2021 16: 54
                Why am I suffering? Why did dualism suddenly become a disease? Aristotle also suffered - poor ... In general, I did not understand you.
                I have a chair - this time. I cannot see a doctor - I have no medical insurance (registration, work, etc.), that's two. I went to Crimea about three years ago, while driving my (more precisely, my wife's) car, which is more than 5000 km - three. I realized that Crimea is not yours - take it easy, it is mine. Four. Good luck - tired.
                1. -2
                  23 July 2021 17: 34
                  Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
                  Why am I suffering?

                  because you are sick
                  Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
                  I went to Crimea about three years ago, while driving my (more precisely, my wife's) car, which is more than 5000 km - three.

                  and what? every year I go to the Crimea by car, unlike you in my own and it is 2400 km
                  Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
                  I realized that Crimea is not yours

                  and where did you get it? the fact that there is no roaming in the Russian Federation but is there in the Crimea? or the fact that there is no savings bank in the Crimea and in the Russian Federation? or the fact that there is no gas station Rosneft, Lukoil or Gazprom in Crimea? Yes, you should not go to the hospital, but to the hospital !! where did YOU find OUR Crimea? except for the flag? you're lying like Trotsky
  16. +8
    22 July 2021 15: 51
    )))) funny text, the author does not know Ukrainian realities at all))
  17. +6
    22 July 2021 16: 01
    An article from the section "Manilovism" ... Remember? "Conduct an underground passage ... Build a bridge ... And what would trade on that bridge ..."
    In the current realities and with the current foreign policy relations, it will not be possible to buy even an old shed with a leaky roof from the neighbors!
  18. +3
    22 July 2021 16: 12
    Country 404, and even under the "friendly" control of the United States, is far from a partner with whom to deal. The deal with the intermediary will be monitored, sanctions will be thrown necessarily, and the intermediary country will fall under the distribution so robustly. No, this is a dead-end path, the same rake, only more painful.
    There is only one way out - to develop (create) our own production, if possible luring specialists from "Zorya-Mashproekt", necessarily with families, to create all conditions for normal work.
    1. 0
      22 July 2021 18: 17
      Quote: Borz
      be sure to work with families to create all conditions for normal work.


      if the conditions were at times different from theirs, everyone would have moved long ago (((
  19. 0
    22 July 2021 16: 12
    Why not India?
  20. KCA
    +3
    22 July 2021 16: 19
    "Saturn" and Kolomna, we will buy "Zorya", brilliant
  21. 0
    22 July 2021 16: 20
    In order to buy something there, someone must guarantee your ownership ... your right to supply finished products where you need it ... to supply uninterrupted electricity and gas ...
  22. +3
    22 July 2021 16: 22
    What kind of authors are writing articles here? That about a diesel engine, then about a gas turbine engine. Can't anyone see this? Zarya deals with the GTE. They don't make diesel, it seems.
  23. wow
    -2
    22 July 2021 16: 37
    Everything has already been torn apart. Even the GTU near the Shipbuilding Complex (such a monument) was stolen and scrapped.
  24. 0
    22 July 2021 16: 39
    And you must admit, until "Zorya" is completely torn apart, this is a very interesting and fat piece. And we just would not have choked completely, Ukrainian engines would be useful to us ...

    They are not Ukrainian, they are Soviet. = _ =
  25. -3
    22 July 2021 16: 41
    It would be quite possible to close the deal through the same India or Vietnam - we have sufficiently developed joint relations for the notorious "quid pro quo"
  26. +2
    22 July 2021 16: 44
    > Nikolaev specialists return to their workplaces
    It is much more profitable, more interesting and wiser to provide specialists with work in the Russian Federation, rather than transfer money for an unfriendly state.
  27. +3
    22 July 2021 16: 50
    The article is so childishly naive that I want to shed a mean man's tear of affection - there are people like the author! smile

    Very far from reality ...
  28. -1
    22 July 2021 16: 52
    I have been thinking for a long time why not buy out all these strategically important production facilities for Russia ..? It would not be bad to buy the land of the South Russian, until the citizens of "Soros" from various other countries bought it all out. At the time to buy out what no island micro-state and act through it. As my wife's grandfather said, a former Odessa street child, pestilence. infantry who have gone through the whole war - "The clock is ticking, time is ticking. It's time to work!"
    1. -1
      22 July 2021 17: 35
      Sale of land to foreigners is prohibited in Ukraine.
      hi
      1. 0
        22 July 2021 19: 08
        Quote: Avior
        Sale of land to foreigners is prohibited in Ukraine.
        hi

        Prohibited purely in theory. The Russians will not be sold. understandably . But you understand that this is nonsense.
        1. -2
          23 July 2021 07: 40
          Prohibited theoretically, practically and legally.
          None of the foreigners will not be sold, since this is impossible.
          If you read somewhere the opposite statement, then it is deliberately false.
          hi
          1. 0
            23 July 2021 13: 14
            Quote: Avior
            Prohibited theoretically, practically and legally.
            None of the foreigners will not be sold, since this is impossible.

            Time will tell which of us is right. I lived in Svidoukraine, I know all these clever laws ... And who saws a penny on these laws.
  29. +2
    22 July 2021 16: 59
    After reading this article, you can understand what the main problem of modern Russia is. This problem lies in the fanatical belief that money can solve any problem in principle. Or rather, not even conviction, but a great desire for this to be the case in reality. And although reality has repeatedly hit on the head, quite painfully proving back, directly demonstrating that money is just a non-subject resource, the old desire does not want to give up. And Western partners again threw, and you do not want to go to your own developments, but you had to return, and of course there is no mass welfare under wild capitalism, and there could not be any, and the national team does not play without mass youth sports, no matter how much you pay the head coach. Fanaticism is unshakable.

    We wish that everything could be solved with the help of money! Krex-pex-fex. As soon as you touch the ground - be in my opinion led. Well, two from the casket! I want to be the mistress of the sea. And the point. Why? Because I want! One gets the impression that money is perceived as a kind of element of a magic spell, like mana, which allows any desired elephant to materialize.
    1. 0
      23 July 2021 13: 16
      Quote: A_Lex
      We wish that everything could be solved with the help of money!

      Are you interested in a bottle of milk and a loaf of bread in a store without despicable money?
  30. +1
    22 July 2021 17: 39
    Actually, these thoughts came to mind when Okoloradsky and I were thinking about dancing with money around Ukrainian defense enterprises.

    "However! I feel that after the vodka you drank port! Mercy, how can you do that!"
    Mikhail Bulgakov, "The Master and Margarita"
  31. +5
    22 July 2021 17: 41
    And you must admit, until the "Zorya" was completely torn apart, it is very interesting and fat piece... And we just would not have choked completely, Ukrainian engines would be useful to us ...

    Roman, I'm just in shock. And what if you buy Nikolaev shipyards (we don't have one)?
    And if you pick up the "Antonov"? Maybe we could also add a little bit of Poroshenko's chocolate factory?
    We have already learned the experience of integration and disintegration. Everything related to the defense industry and strategic industries must be at home, otherwise at any opportunity or "overseas nix" they will have us.
    The Mistrals have not improved their mind? And what about composites for MC wings from the USA and Japan?
    Let them choke on their own fat. A completely different task is maturing in Russia - how to create 25 million high-tech jobs and how to move from a resource-based economy to production.
    It's time to get rid of ultimatums and blackmail. Time is running out and the cart does not move from its place yet.
  32. +5
    22 July 2021 17: 58
    Why don't we buy the Saratov aircraft plant? ???
    True, there are no walls left, no foundations.
    But all the better, we will rebuild everything new
    1. 0
      22 July 2021 18: 38
      Quote: U-58
      Why don't we buy the Saratov aircraft plant? ???

      By the way, in the eighties it was a very large enterprise, even by Union standards, and I remember the tram track that was not far from the checkpoint, if my memory serves me right.
  33. 0
    22 July 2021 18: 00
    It is clear that our eternal allies such as Belarus, Mongolia, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan will not fit. It is one thing to buy several dry cargo ships from Ukraine, which then "suddenly" appeared on the "Syrian Express"; it is another thing to produce engines for warships.


    how such a purchase looks like can be seen on the example of China (you give money and get nothing in return). It is beyond naivety to hope that the US colony will supply engines for warships to the enemy of its owner. Namely, since 2014, Ukraine has been completely a US colony.
    And even if Russia had bought Zorya before 2014, after the Maidan this enterprise would have been nationalized back by Ukraine and all supplies would have stopped.

    Yes, Russia has had problems in this regard since 2014.


    Russia had problems until 2014, because the fleet rearmament program depended on a country that literally looked the West in the mouth and could stop this rearmament one call at a time, which happened. their efficiency is superior to similar Ukrainian ones.

    We sailed to the point that Chinese engines were installed on our warships. With all the ensuing consequences, like a cut ship hull to remove a jammed engine.


    the ship's hull was cut to install a Chinese engine, or rather a power plant, which in its shape and fastening differed from the Ukrainian installation for the dimensions of which the hull was originally designed. Chinese GTEs, by the way, showed their best side and failed at the stage of installation and testing on the ship among them did not have.

    However, two engines in 20 years is very small and very slow. But then you can remember the old principle of lazy people: if you can't do it yourself, buy it.


    Well, for starters, in the world, the countries possessing the technology of creating a gas turbine engine can be counted on the fingers of one hand. As for the stated principle about the fact that everything can be bought and why we felt these industries on our own skin in the 90s.
    And not in 20 years, but began to create only 2014 "Since 2014 NPO Saturn has been carrying out three development work on the M90FR, Agregat-DKVP and M70FRU-R engines"and for all these R&D engines have already been created. And most importantly, they have been developed and created according to modern technologies, have a higher efficiency, are more economical and have an increased overhaul life, in contrast to the Ukrainian ones manufactured according to the technologies of the 60s-80s."

    Of course, now some will say: we would buy, who would sell?


    Now Russia would not buy anything from military products in Ukraine, because no one wants to depend on the country's 404 defense capabilities. By the way, Ukraine threw the first problems of Russia in the defense industry in the distant 90s, when for the first stage of the Topol missile (before the collapse of the USSR, it was produced in the KB "Yuzhnoye") broke such a price in hard currency that we were forced to master the production of the first day in Russia, and already "Topol M" was a completely Russian missile.
    1. +1
      22 July 2021 18: 34
      By the way, Ukraine threw the first problems of Russia in the defense industry in the distant 90s when for the first stage of the Topol rocket (before the collapse of the USSR it was produced in the Yuzhnoye design bureau) it broke such a price in hard currency that we were forced to master the production of the first day in Russia and already " Topol M "was an entirely Russian missile.

      Aren't you confusing anything? "Topol", as well as RSD-10, were made in Votkinsk.
      1. -1
        22 July 2021 19: 13
        Is it okay that poplar is a solid fuel machine? Another Losers?
        1. 0
          22 July 2021 20: 01
          Quote: lego2
          Is it okay that poplar is a solid fuel machine?


          type in Google or Wikipedia "solid rocket engine"
      2. 0
        22 July 2021 20: 00
        Quote: VIK1711
        Aren't you confusing anything? "Poplar"


        Many of these features of the new rocket are related to its first stage engine. It was developed back in the Yuzhnoye design bureau in Dnepropetrovsk under the leadership of the general designer Stanislav Konyukhov. Then, when Ukraine left the cooperation, he was transferred to the MIT. And already in Moscow it was finalized, "introduced" into the new complex.

        https://tass.ru/opinions/8949377
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      23 July 2021 11: 42
      Quote: lopvlad
      By the way, Ukraine threw the first problems of Russia in the defense industry in the distant 90s when for the first stage of the Topol rocket (before the collapse of the USSR it was produced in the Yuzhnoye design bureau) it broke such a price in hard currency that we were forced to master the production of the first day in Russia and already " Topol M "was an entirely Russian missile.

      You are confusing "Topol" and "Topol-M".
      The Yuzhnoye design bureau took part in the development of the Topol-M universal mobile and mine-based complex. Work on it was started back in the USSR at the end of 1989. In the first half of 1992, before the completion of work on the complex, "Yuzhnoye" withdrew from cooperation.
  34. +1
    22 July 2021 18: 25
    These creatures will not buy something that does not bring immediate profit! They are organically incapable of this. can only tyrit childish resources and hope that they will get away with it, when the puppet rules!
  35. 0
    22 July 2021 18: 53
    Roman, even though you are a snitch, you have to be friends with your head. It’s easier for them to hang themselves, these two-colored brothers of ours, than they’ll sell us !!!! this Zorya. I thought you were smarter.
  36. 0
    22 July 2021 19: 11
    Turkey, Pakistan, India, Algeria, almost all of South America, some kind of Finns - this is certainly the sweetest option, riveted in Ukraine, taken home, that is, practically to the St. Petersburg shipyards.
  37. 0
    22 July 2021 19: 13
    It is clear that our eternal allies such as Belarus, Mongolia, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan will not fit.

    Will Uzbekistan fit? what
    And that in Belarus, too, the sea is not visible, however, the pinnacles believe that there is. There is probably a sea of ​​Uzbekistan. As with that gopher, he is not visible, but he is. And therefore, let 404 sell marine gas turbines and diesel engines to Uzbekistan, and they will be given to us. We will cover their border from the barmaley anyway, so let it be of such use at least.
  38. +3
    22 July 2021 20: 17
    Surprised. I did not expect such naivety from Roman. A ship turbine is a military and strategic product. Whatever the affiliation of the legal entity-owner of the plant, Germany, France, Nauru-turbines are made in Ukraine, and export deliveries are carried out on the basis of an export license issued by the Ukrainian authorities. The license indicates to whom and where and to which object the delivery is permitted. Everything is tracked very easily. Well, once they are deceived, they will pay a fine, like for 100 turbines. Desire will disappear. But this is not so bad. It is worse if the turbines run smoothly. And after six months or a year of operation, the turbines will begin to crumble one after another. Which arbitration to complain to? There are no official documents and no manufacturer's warranty, Money-bye-bye. A beautiful operational combination of special services. Cutting the sides and stuffing Chinese junk? They do not and will not have superfluous military turbines, given their scale of naval construction.
  39. -2
    22 July 2021 21: 54
    Why don't we buy the Ukrainian Zorya?

    There is no sense, and so everything will remain for us (foundation and destroyed workshops) ..
    What they could, back in 2015, they took specialists, including ...
    We need Kiev with Odessa and Kharkov .. And the rest is no longer interesting, there EVERYTHING is destroyed more or less cost-effective ..
    PS Can't Roman share with this "dawn" ..? Strange article ..
    That means in Russia everything is bad and overwhelmed, but here he praises the Ukrainian Zorya so sharply, and even offers to buy at maximum speed. laughing
    Roma is in share and has already started advertising .. well, damn it))))))
  40. -1
    22 July 2021 22: 37
    I'll buy everything, - said gold
    I'll take everything, - said the damask.
  41. 0
    23 July 2021 05: 33
    Someone had a desire to play their favorite prepaid game with the Ukrainians?
  42. +2
    23 July 2021 08: 12
    Good idea!
    To contract for this a private office, which for state money at scrap prices will acquire junk (having plundered something for itself along the way).
    Then the Ukrainians, at first surprised at the idiocy that has manifested themselves, and then just to spite the idiots, nationalize "strategic" production.
    Maybe they will even share the unexpectedly dumped freebie with the idiots of this idea.
    Isn't it a scenario of continuing general idiocy?
  43. +1
    23 July 2021 08: 16
    Mr. Skomorokhov, as always, in his own style ... It is now easier for Russia to buy the Moon than something from the dillies! ... Russia needs to develop its own production, which is being carried out, despite the presence of "space journalists" and similar figures in many industries ... Unfortunately, the education system, the system of training specialists has not yet emerged from the crisis of the 90s - "zero". And Roman also needs to learn the basics of engine building ... There is such a difference between diesel engines and gas turbine engines that you can't compensate for nicknames!
  44. +1
    23 July 2021 09: 02
    Perhaps the readers will have other options, it would be interesting to get acquainted.
    Maybe everything is sold in Ukraine, but not for Russia. Actually, for this, the Yankees did a coup there, in particular, to cut off an important part of our military-industrial complex. You can buy it, but who will sell it to us. There was no need for Ukraine to lose, at least to recognize their "elections", allowing the junta to legalize, with Yanukovych alive and legally legitimate. The referendums in Donbass were not recognized, but here, please.

    What to do, Ukraine is under the United States, and under whom are we, if so we recognize those who carried out the anti-constitutional coup and obey the advice from the IMF at home? Ukraine will be Russian, which it has always been from the beginning, but for this, Russia itself must become Russian, no matter how ridiculous and it sounds, returning the selected capitalism back to the dustbin of history.

    It is impossible to become a new leader and master of capitalism, just as not to build "parallel" capitalism in Russia, separately from world rules, not for the good of the colonies invented.
  45. 0
    23 July 2021 15: 59
    The author does not understand what he is saying. Instead of a factory, any factory from Ukraine, we will receive such wreckage, which will then be much cheaper to bury than to restore, since this restoration will be ten times more expensive than building a new enterprise from scratch. And we have not had engineers for such a feat for a long time.
    I had a chance to somehow participate in the commissioning of our wonderful technopark, which will revive our science and technology at once. Can you guess? Skolkovo, yeah. Of course, the wonderful wonders of science and technology will not be there now and not in our world at all (now it is a money launderer and a black hole for the budget, as it was planned), but we are about to wow, AH! Crap...
    In general, a substantial part of the projects for Skolkovo were ordered, all of a sudden, in Ukraine. Well, you remember, our designers then were overwhelmed with such an excess of orders that they were ruined by dozens every day, so it was extremely logical to support the "brotherly people" with fat contracts.
    So that's it. When it became necessary to launch this very Skolkovo, it suddenly turned out that it never happened, but here it is again! That is, you turn it on, but it does not work. Doesn't work at all. Suddenly.
    There was no money in the project, of course. And then they began to call all sorts of miserable provincials, because they can work a miracle for a small coin. But this is a slightly different story.
    In general, I began to look at projects. And they were made extremely ingeniously! There were different projects, different organizations, from different cities and regions of Ukraine, but they were united by one thing. All of them as one were made in such a way as to first spend as much money as possible, as a result of which they received non-working schemes that consume money and time, but give no return in anything.
    Well, as a minor example - there is a huge electrical substation. Underground! She needs, among other things, water. From a drink shift to technological needs. The substation is located five hundred meters from the main site. Sometime later, as hands reach, the next stage of the wonderful technopark will be built, and the substation will receive a permanent water supply scheme. And now? Well, you and I just forwarded a temporary waterline. Hehe ...
    Our Ukrainian "friends" designed the pit. 6 meters deep. In the pit, two-thirds of the height, a pipe protrudes from the floor. With a connection node. A water carrier is approaching. The driver of the water carrier takes the hose and connects it to the connection point. Thus, clean water is discharged into several tanks located inside the substation. It's all. The whole water supply project. Beautiful, is not it?
    Our task is to establish automation. Automation - at the level of the valve from the toilet cistern in the internal containers, with a reed switch, and "figure out what's wrong with the pipes." Things to do for a couple of days, seven thousand money). We are coming. Can you guess?
    The pit is full along the hatch. Rainwater is half-and-half with mud. In principle, no means are provided for draining it. Well, that is, in general. You can, of course, dive and connect a hose to the receiving unit (water carriers will probably hire scuba divers for this job), only water does not come from the receiving pipe. Half a hundred kilograms of dirt got off, and that's enough. The fact is that, firstly, the receiving unit on the pipe is not standard. It had to be piled by the builders themselves, with their own hands, according to a sketch drawing. There are no valves in it, a hole in the spherical head. And secondly, there is a transition of pipe diameters. In the wall. The mud got there tightly ...
    The ENTIRE technopark is designed in this way. And it was not a couple of Banderites, it was large teams of Ukrainian designers who did it. Hundreds of people tried hard with inspiration. It's good to entertain your brains with illusions about "brotherly people", or generally about a single nation ...
  46. 0
    23 July 2021 16: 06
    Before nationalization, Motor Sich was a private enterprise and could be bought and sold.
    Zorya-Mashproekt is a state-owned enterprise included in the list of enterprises of the national security level. Not for sale. Not for sale yet.
  47. +1
    23 July 2021 22: 26
    Quote: Mikhail3
    The author does not understand what he is saying. Instead of a factory, any factory from Ukraine, we will receive such wreckage, which will then be much cheaper to bury than to restore, since this restoration will be ten times more expensive than building a new enterprise from scratch. And we have not had engineers for such a feat for a long time.
    I had a chance to somehow participate in the commissioning of our wonderful technopark, which will revive our science and technology at once. Can you guess? Skolkovo, yeah. Of course, the wonderful wonders of science and technology will not be there now and not in our world at all (now it is a money launderer and a black hole for the budget, as it was planned), but we are about to wow, AH! Crap...
    In general, a substantial part of the projects for Skolkovo were ordered, all of a sudden, in Ukraine. Well, you remember, our designers then were overwhelmed with such an excess of orders that they were ruined by dozens every day, so it was extremely logical to support the "brotherly people" with fat contracts.
    So that's it. When it became necessary to launch this very Skolkovo, it suddenly turned out that it never happened, but here it is again! That is, you turn it on, but it does not work. Doesn't work at all. Suddenly.
    There was no money in the project, of course. And then they began to call all sorts of miserable provincials, because they can work a miracle for a small coin. But this is a slightly different story.
    In general, I began to look at projects. And they were made extremely ingeniously! There were different projects, different organizations, from different cities and regions of Ukraine, but they were united by one thing. All of them as one were made in such a way as to first spend as much money as possible, as a result of which they received non-working schemes that consume money and time, but give no return in anything.
    Well, as a minor example - there is a huge electrical substation. Underground! She needs, among other things, water. From a drink shift to technological needs. The substation is located five hundred meters from the main site. Sometime later, as hands reach, the next stage of the wonderful technopark will be built, and the substation will receive a permanent water supply scheme. And now? Well, you and I just forwarded a temporary waterline. Hehe ...
    Our Ukrainian "friends" designed the pit. 6 meters deep. In the pit, two-thirds of the height, a pipe protrudes from the floor. With a connection node. A water carrier is approaching. The driver of the water carrier takes the hose and connects it to the connection point. Thus, clean water is discharged into several tanks located inside the substation. It's all. The whole water supply project. Beautiful, is not it?
    Our task is to establish automation. Automation - at the level of the valve from the toilet cistern in the internal containers, with a reed switch, and "figure out what's wrong with the pipes." Things to do for a couple of days, seven thousand money). We are coming. Can you guess?
    The pit is full along the hatch. Rainwater is half-and-half with mud. In principle, no means are provided for draining it. Well, that is, in general. You can, of course, dive and connect a hose to the receiving unit (water carriers will probably hire scuba divers for this job), only water does not come from the receiving pipe. Half a hundred kilograms of dirt got off, and that's enough. The fact is that, firstly, the receiving unit on the pipe is not standard. It had to be piled by the builders themselves, with their own hands, according to a sketch drawing. There are no valves in it, a hole in the spherical head. And secondly, there is a transition of pipe diameters. In the wall. The mud got there tightly ...
    The ENTIRE technopark is designed in this way. And it was not a couple of Banderites, it was large teams of Ukrainian designers who did it. Hundreds of people tried hard with inspiration. It's good to entertain your brains with illusions about "brotherly people", or generally about a single nation ...

    Sorry, but I don't believe it. Whatever they were, but what you wrote is too much.
    More like a lie, calm down already. Go far in your hatred)
    1. 0
      24 July 2021 09: 34
      Quote: Korben
      Sorry, but I don't believe it. Whatever they were, but what you wrote is too much.
      More like a lie, calm down already. Go far in your hatred)

      Do not believe it. But what he wrote is known to all builders who have ever worked in Skolkovo. If you happen to meet one of them, ask around. This is the most innocuous example I have chosen. There are other pits there as well. What's going on in them ...
      And yes. Kh.Ohly hate us. It is a fact...
      And, you can still tell a joke)) It will not affect the defense capability.
      In general, there, at the substation, there is a TEMPORARY pumping substation. The source of water for her is three huge cisterns. And there are level gauges in them. Swedish. Inexpensive, each for 6,5 thousand euros. Moreover, they are not stored in warehouses in Russia (all of a sudden)), they are transported from Sweden to order, to especially dangerous and toxic industries. Well, there are acids, alkalis, other caustic rubbish. How we searched for these level gauges and begged ...
      They brought it. We mount. And something somehow alarms us. You see, the level gauges are installed horizontally in the drums. At the very bottom. The working part is directed towards the opposite wall.
      Well, okay, maybe we don't understand what in monstrously expensive technology (it's like installing a fuel pump from a Proton in a Zhiguli), we sculpt it according to the project, especially since the containers cannot be digested, where the flange was driven at the factory, twist it there, or take it to the plant , one hundred million will cost.
      We include. Level gauges work, but ... They measure liquid from wall to wall. I poured 30 cm of water into a five-meter height, the level gauge shows - full! That is, the "Muscovites" have thrown 19,5 thousand euros on level gauges, which do not show nichrome. Well, it's funny, isn't it?
  48. 0
    24 July 2021 05: 01
    Another nonsense from a super expert!
  49. 0
    24 July 2021 09: 42
    Quote: Mikhail3
    Quote: Korben
    Sorry, but I don't believe it. Whatever they were, but what you wrote is too much.
    More like a lie, calm down already. Go far in your hatred)

    Do not believe it. But what he wrote is known to all builders who have ever worked in Skolkovo. If you happen to meet one of them, ask around. This is the most innocuous example I have chosen. There are other pits there as well. What's going on in them ...
    And yes. Kh.Ohly hate us. It is a fact...

    Hate? How so? Here on the forum, many comrades crucifying and citing a bunch of relatives from Ukraine as an example, claim that they are just waiting for the Russians to release them, but it turns out that they hate us and screw up commercial contracts (and who took the job in Skolkovo? then they are suckers and why not deceive suckers, then they are suckers))
  50. 0
    24 July 2021 11: 28
    Of course, you cannot buy directly. They will take the money, but they will not give anything back. And through intermediaries? Through Egypt or Iraq? Option of course. Better to take out the plant. Better yet, free this territory from the Nazis. In general, this will remove all the problems with the engines.
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  54. 0
    24 July 2021 16: 59
    Идея нежизнеспособна в принципе. Потому что строится на попытке обмануть украину. И ее крышу. Это как попробовать на рынке обмануть наперсточников и братков которые их крышуют. Их не интересует правильность и законность происходящего. Их интересует отъём денежной массы у тех кто решил сыграть. Т.е. направление денежного потока на станке может быть только в одном направлении - в пользу наперсточников. Если, по какой-то причине, наблюдается обратное - вмешивается крыша, братки, которые просто отобьют голову или устроят какие-то другие неприятности, тому кто решил лишить их "законного" выигрыша.
    Применительно к украине. Ну, да. Там любят доллары. До такой степени, что могут регулярно, каждые несколько лет, делать реприватизацию, отбирая предприятия у текущего собственника и перепродавая новому. Заносить им в конвертах чтобы такого не происходило? Да ладно. Скупой платит дважды, - трижды, а лох платит всегда. Кто будет в качестве лоха пальцем показывать будем?
    Вариант с покупкой предприятия нейтральной страной тоже не взлетит. Как только всплывет инфа, что продукция завода идёт в Россию (а она обязательно всплывёт, шила в мешке не утаишь), вмешаются братки, в смысле крыша - сша. Последуют т.н. "санкции второго порядка" и завод станет просто убыточным вложением.
    Единственный способ обеспечить работу завода в интересах России - сделать так, чтобы завод оказался либо на территории России (купить и вывезти, только стоит ли?), либо на дружественной территории (например в пределах большой Новороссии).
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  56. 0
    27 July 2021 00: 18
    lol
    Why don't we buy the Ukrainian Zorya?
    А чего мелочиться, может лучше сразу замахнуться на MTU Friedrichshafen? wassat
  57. -1
    27 July 2021 13: 01
    Инвестировать и создавать рабочие места для упоротых кастрюлеголовых идиотов,не очень то хорошая идея!

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