Military Review

Professional competence. Commanding staff of the 2nd squadron of the Pacific Fleet

69
Professional competence. Commanding staff of the 2nd squadron of the Pacific Fleet

How ready were the sailors of the Baltic fleet? What combat and service experience did you have? Was Rozhestvensky right when he wrote that Alekseev had already taken the best?


The questions are complex. We can only read biographies and draw conclusions from them, and they do not always reflect the competence of a person. And the rapid progress of technology quickly devalued experience and knowledge. But nevertheless, a lot can be gleaned simply from biographies. Moreover, there are not many of them - the squadron had four admirals, a flag-captain and, for completeness, the commanders of the EBR.

It must be clarified - the census system in the navy led to wild leaps, when officers were thrown from ship positions to naval ones, and often not suitable, but free. Hence the wild spread in individual biographies. There are no pure specialists who served on ships of the line or cruisers. Specialization at that time was tight, often not at all, and education was limited to the Marine Corps and various courses.

Admirals


So the admirals:

1. Rozhdestvensky Zinovy ​​Petrovich... At the time of the battle - 57 years old. Brilliant education - Mikhailovskaya Artillery Academy. Combat experience - the battle of "Vesta" in the Russian-Turkish war. Diplomatic experience - Commander of the Bulgarian Navy and Naval Attaché in London. A trip to the Far East by the commander of the cruiser "Vladimir Monomakh" under the flag of Makarov, with flattering reviews of the latter. The commander of the training and artillery detachment of the Baltic Fleet, demanded the inclusion of the latest ships in it. Organizer of the rescue of the coastal defense battleship "General-Admiral Apraksin". Since 1903 - Chief of the Naval General Staff.

2. Nikolai Nebogatov... At the time of the battle - 56 years old. Education - naval school and the course of naval sciences of the Nikolaev Academy in 1896. No combat experience, no diplomatic experience. He commanded "Nakhimov", since 1898 in one way or another in positions related to the training of recruits. Staff experience - flag-captain of the Baltic Fleet Practical Squadron and the fourth naval crew.

3. Fölkersam Dmitry Gustavovich... He died on a hike three days before Tsushima. 59 years old. Education besides the Corps - mine and artillery classes, for a long time he was engaged in teaching work on galvanic artillery firing devices. Staff experience - flagship mine officer of the headquarters of the commander of the Baltic Sea Practical Squadron. Team experience on modern ships - battleship Nikolai I (four years). Head of the Training and Artillery Detachment of the Baltic Fleet from 1902 to 1904. Artilleryman-innovator, one of the sailors-scientists of our fleet, now completely forgotten.

4. Enquist Oskar Adolfovich... 56 years old. Education - Marine Corps, no combat and diplomatic experience. There is no staff experience. For four years (1895-1899) he commanded the cruiser Duke of Edinburgh. Since 1902 - Nikolaev mayor.

5. Captain 1 rank Radlov Otto Leopoldovich... On 14.05.1905/56/XNUMX - XNUMX years old. Academic course of sciences at the Naval School. No combat experience. Extensive work experience in civil shipping companies - for seven years he headed the "Russian Society of Shipping and Trade".

6. Clapier de Colong Konstantin Konstantinovich... 46 years old by the time of Tsushima. No combat experience. Diplomatic experience - Commandant of the Chinese port of Yingkou. Staff experience - flag captain positions from 1891 to 1893 in the Baltic Fleet. Command experience - training ship "Peter the Great".

What immediately catches your eye?

Rozhestvensky surpassed all of his junior flagships by a head, both in experience and in education, excluding Radlov, but he had very specific tasks, which he coped with five. Still, Otto Leopoldovich was not a combat officer.

All junior flagships have extensive experience in training recruits, which is logical on a squadron assembled in haste. Felkerzam had experience in training officers, taking into account the number of young people in the squadron - not bad either. All of them are of the same generation, which means they are well acquainted with each other (Enquist and Nebogatov are classmates in the Marine Corps).

The problem is that there was no one to replace Rozhestvensky either by experience or by authority. There was no clearly defined number two on the squadron. They could have become the commander of the Third Squadron, but Nebogatov was sent, the same average person with training experience and zero combat experience.

The situation could be improved by placing someone with combat experience on the squadron. The options were: Bezobrazov, Jessen, Stark, but ... it didn't work. Why? One can guess - Rozhdestvensky himself was not in those ranks and with the wrong experience, so that a conflict did not arise.

In the end, the order for the next battleship in the column is quite logical - there was no one to transfer command: Enquist was at his limit, Nebogatov was beyond the limit, Felkerzam died, and, in general, the squadron was not his.

In the sense of the junior flagships, the squadron was not ready (from the word - in general): a small number of flagships multiplied by their low combat competence. And it makes little sense to blame Zinovy ​​- qualification, gentlemen, qualification ...

On the other hand, all the cadres who can effectively bring and teach at least something have brilliantly fulfilled their task, and Enquist even exceeded it. But one shell in battle - and the squadron is decapitated.

Commanders and senior officers


Now commanders and senior officers.

1. "Prince Suvorov"

Commander - 1st Rank Captain Ignatius Vasily Vasilievich... Marine painter and sailor. 51 years old. Graduated from mine officer classes. For a long time he commanded destroyers, in profile, positions on monitors, rather for qualifications, served in the Pacific squadron, no combat experience. And then in 1901 he was appointed commander of the newest battleship squadron. Cens. Not that he failed, but an experienced miner would have looked better on destroyers, and a talented artist would have looked better on the shore.

2. "Emperor Alexander III"

Commander - Bukhvostov Nikolay Mikhailovich... 48 years old. Education - Naval Corps, most of the service on the shore, then he fought against the plague, then he was in charge of the school, or even in general:

Member of the commission chaired by Rear Admiral A. N. Parenago for comparative tests of the quality of hemp cables produced by the hemp factories of Neva and Gotha.

For service he commanded the cruiser "Rynda" (1898-1902) and the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" (1903), took over in Saigon. He received the position of commander of the newest EBR in 1903, already during the testing period. With undoubted personal courage and nobility, he had few competencies, simply because of the lack of serious experience in the service.

3. "Borodino"

Commander - Serebryannikov Petr Iosifovich... 51 years old, Mine officer classes. An experienced commander, three years as a senior officer and two years as a commander of the armored cruiser "Russia". The battleship took over in 1902 during construction.

4. "Eagle"

Commander Jung Nikolay Viktorovih. 49 years old. Combat experience in the Russian-Turkish war, the experience of the command of the EBR "Poltava", as a VRED, the course of the Naval Academy, a member of the commission for testing new battleships since 1898. Command of training ships.

5. "Oslyabya"

Commander - Baer Vladimir Iosifovich... 51 years old. Service experience in the Far East, mine classes and the course of the naval academy. Overseeing the construction of "Varyag" and "Retvizan" in Philadelphia. Refused the rear admiral's rank for the sake of the campaign.

What do we have from the top five?

Three commanders are perfectly trained professionals: one of them has combat experience, one is a rear admiral without a minute. Bukhvostov and Ignatius look weaker, the second is the commander of the flagship, and the first is a descendant of the Peter's aristocracy, and at least you cannot refuse personal courage.

Unlike the junior flagships on the newest battleships, they are quite sensible professionals with considerable experience and without a minute as admirals. On the old ships, everything was also not bad, the commanders, of course, no differences, but solid middle peasants with considerable sailing experience. Without combat, it is true, but where did the combat come from?

conclusions


If we sum up a certain general conclusion, everything was fine with the commanders, which the Tsushima battle showed: not a single ship surrendered on its own, not a single one fled, people died, but did not surrender.

And the crews were well prepared: no breakdowns in battle, no deaths due to technical reasons were recorded.

And the only mistake remains - the junior flagships, or rather, their selection and placement. And it was this mistake that led to the disaster.

Not to defeat, defeat was inevitable, namely to disaster - there was simply no one to take responsibility and retreat. Only Enquist at night behaved relatively sanely (relatively - because he had to withdraw ALL cruisers) and withdrew to Shanghai.

The rest ... The last order dominated them, which no longer had any meaning or the slightest relation to reality.

Where does the small conclusion come from - cadres decide everything, and cadres of deputies - doubly.

And such an interesting moment - why weren't rear admirals with combat experience involved? There were enough of them.

Why weren't two admirals assigned to the detachment? It's not a problem either.

Disregard for logistics led to defeat, disregard for common sense for the sake of census and rules - to disaster. But the experience was, and Makarov, and Vitgeft. He was, but he was ignored. And worst of all, promising future admirals were killed with the ships, and those who survived were quietly retired.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 22 July 2021 05: 17
    +4
    ... not a single ship surrendered on its own, not a single one escaped, people died, but did not surrender.

    Everything is clear with Nebogatov, but how
    Rozhestvensky Zinovy ​​Petrovich. At the time of the battle - 57 years old. Education is brilliant
    captured?
    All the good days!
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 22 July 2021 05: 44
      +7
      Good morning Vlad! smile
      Imagine the situation: A squadron is awaiting in Vladik, and one destroyer comes there and brings one Zinovy. There is an admiral, but the fleet is dumb! laughing You can't describe it with a pen. request
      1. 27091965
        27091965 22 July 2021 12: 55
        +5
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Imagine the situation: A squadron is awaiting in Vladik, and one destroyer comes there and brings one Zinovy. There is an admiral, but the fleet is dumb! You can't describe this with a pen


        "..... in a document on the subject of the Russo-Japanese war, drawn up by the General Staff, I find the following entry:"If Rozhestvensky could reach Vladivostok with his fleet safe and sound, this addition could be considered tantamount to victory. In the shelter of a safe harbor, with docks and coal at his disposal, he forced the Japanese to exhaust themselves with heavy voyages and behaved as a constant threat to their communication at sea, the master of the choice of the hour when it would be convenient for him to enter the battle.. "Philip R. Alger 1908.

        You are right, it is impossible to imagine what would have happened in this case.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 22 July 2021 09: 05
      +4
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      captured?

      Wounded...
    3. Astor 27
      Astor 27 23 July 2021 01: 08
      +1
      The court fully understood this issue: Rozhdestvensky was at that moment in an unconscious state. The severity of the wounds was such that the paramedic of the destroyer did not know if he would survive (and the Japanese then did not dare to operate for a long time). R. regained consciousness for a short time and again fell into oblivion. It is unlikely that an attempt by unscrupulous subordinates to evade personal responsibility and a voluntary admission of guilt by Rozhestvensky in this matter can be considered as the presence of R.'s intent to surrender.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 22 July 2021 06: 23
    +4
    And such an interesting moment - why weren't rear admirals with combat experience involved? There were enough of them.
    ..Yes, yes ... The Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78, and is replete with naval battles on the Black Sea and in the Archipelago smile
  3. vladcub
    vladcub 22 July 2021 07: 56
    +2
    Conclusion: the emperor was kazel. It was necessary to entrust the author with everything. He would put things in order
    1. faiver
      faiver 22 July 2021 14: 11
      +6
      Conclusion: Emperor Kazel
      - isn't it?
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 23 July 2021 08: 08
        0
        What do you want from a henpecked man? There are many cases when the wife (mother) is smarter, but Nikolai got too much: 1) the rag itself, 2 the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law that still "song" 3 "Hessian fly" was on everyone's mind, and the sycophants tried to whip up
  4. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 22 July 2021 07: 59
    +2
    And what to chew on the same thing. What happened and probably what should have happened.
  5. Undecim
    Undecim 22 July 2021 08: 31
    +6
    The author continues to torment the story with enviable consistency, producing sketch after sketch.
    If we talk about professional competence and combat experience in relation to the participants in Tsushima, then those should be considered from both sides.
    1. unknown
      unknown 22 July 2021 09: 43
      -8
      Your truth.
      In the living journal of a professional historian, a journal, unfortunately, already closed, but accessible, there is a very interesting material about the REAL history of Japan.

      https://skunk-69.livejournal.com/3682.html

      The ancient history of Japan is a complete fake.
      The penetration of Europeans into the four southern islands of the Kuril ridge began only after the Eastern War. Autochthonous population - Ainu (Ivan) - white people.
      The yellow ones are the descendants of the micro and Polynesian peoples, whom the Europeans began to intensively import only after their victory in the Eastern (Crimean War).
      Actually, the construction of the state began in 1868, after the so-called Meiji revolution. It started from scratch. Complete zero. The state, people, "elite", industry, cities, education system, language were created from scratch. And this language (not the easiest to learn, suffice it to remember that modern Japanese learn the language before the age of thirty) should have been taught to the entire population of "Japan". For example, modern German was created in 1901. And it took the Germans, the most developed nation in Europe, until 1945 to fully introduce the new language into all spheres of public life.
      And the "Japanese" from the Meiji revolution to the beginning of the Russian-Japanese war was only 36 years old.
      Do we know everything about our enemy in that war, and who really was our enemy?
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 22 July 2021 10: 42
        +9
        Ancient history of Japan - complete fake

        You have the wrong address, you need Ruby Princess.
  6. 27091965
    27091965 22 July 2021 08: 57
    +4
    [B] [/ b]
    Rozhestvensky Zinovy ​​Petrovich. At the time of the battle - 57 years old.


    "In the reports of 1901-1903. Very positively characterized by counter-admiral Z.P. Rozhdestvensky. During the period of service in the Navy from 1865 to 1901. he managed to achieve a lot. German observers noted his special professional activity, fame and a certain popularity not only in the naval, but also in political circles. The latter circumstance is known to be significant in career growth. With regard to this Russian naval officer, the assumption is made that in the near future "he may generally become the head of the Russian fleet."
    Another, no less significant, factor that contributed to the accelerated promotion of Rozhdestvensky up the career ladder was considered his opposition to Vice Admiral S.O. Makarov. The latter was believed in Berlin to be disliked by most of the old Russian naval officer corps. These sentiments helped Rozhestvensky to be "a kind of alternative" to the undoubtedly talented naval commander Makarov "
  7. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 22 July 2021 09: 18
    +5
    I'm afraid the author is very superficial about the organization of service in the RIF.
    The fact is that all reputable admirals with combat experience were older than ZPR in age and, more importantly, in seniority in production. Therefore, it was impossible to appoint Skrydlov or Dubasov as the junior flagship to Rozhdestvensky. Nobody would understand that.
    And those who are younger simply did not mature in ranks and qualifications. It was Makarov, thousands of miles from St. Petersburg, who could change commanders as he wanted (and not very well), and no one would have allowed ZPR.
    what up
    Was Rozhestvensky right when he wrote that Alekseev had already taken the best?

    the original quote was:
    “There are no assistants. There was one part K ... (NL Klado. - VG), and that had to be returned. " "The kindest K ... K ... (KK Clapier de Colongg. - VG) swiftness sworn enemy" ... "Why did you take such assistants? All were robbed Alekseev, Makarov, Skrydlov... There remained people who were rejected by them ”...
    1. stafford41
      stafford41 22 July 2021 19: 11
      0
      In Rozhestvensky's quote, an interesting moment about the fact that he was "robbed by Alekseev, Makarov and Skrydlov." Interesting in that Klado, who "had to be returned," came to him directly from Skrydlov's headquarters. Since Rozhestvensky was able to take Klado away from Skrydlov, what prevented him from taking others away (Brusilov, Kerber, Shcheglov, Eberhard, Rusin, Matusevich, Reitenstein)? But in addition to Klado, Zinovy ​​Petrovich dragged off only one more Semyonov, who, of course, Klado is not good in terms of a staff officer. But I admit that we may not know something in this story.
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 22 July 2021 20: 23
        +2
        Mikhail Kedrov, the senior flag officer of the Vitgeft headquarters, who ... was appointed as an artillery officer in the Ural, arrived at Rozhestvensky! am
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 22 July 2021 20: 48
          0
          And what to do with it, especially in Campang?
          was seriously wounded by a shell that killed Admiral Vitgeft (he was wounded, gassed, received a 2nd degree burn to his entire face and right hand, wounded in the head and right arm) ... After the "Tsarevich" arrived at the port after the battle Kio-Chao, Kedrov was treated in a German hospital for two months.
        2. stafford41
          stafford41 22 July 2021 21: 21
          0
          Kedrov himself reached Kamrang and the Second Squadron, and only in April 1905 Rozhdestvensky did not invite him to his place. I think that Rozhdestvensky Kedrov, who was seriously wounded on July 28, 1904 (and before that Kedrov was wounded one more time in Port Arthur), already considered his conqueror, or maybe he simply did not know him.
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 22 July 2021 20: 46
        +1
        It seems to me that the ZPR specially selected such people whom he knew as good executors of his will, but at some point he realized that he himself was not capable of everything, and he would not wait from the assistants of the initiative.
        1. stafford41
          stafford41 22 July 2021 21: 49
          0
          Kerber, Brusilov, Shcheglov - participants in the naval game, organized at the General Music School by Rozhdestvensky in the winter of 1902-1903. Dobrotvorsky was also there with them. Rozhestvensky knew all of them well, since they worked with him at the General Music School. Here he, most likely, did not know Klado, did not intersect with him in the service. I probably knew him. only from the books that Klado wrote.
  8. Sergey Valov
    Sergey Valov 22 July 2021 09: 39
    +8
    Where did the Russian sailors have combat experience for the RYAV? The presence of the experience of the Russian-Turkish war among the units of the command staff is more a negative factor than a positive one, because too much has changed in the war at sea.
    "Disregard for logistics led to failure" - what kind of logistics ??? As for the supply, in the complete absence of overseas bases, the campaign was carried out brilliantly. Not a single lagged or lost ship, very decent coordination of the navigation of individual groups of ships, organization of rest for crews in godforsaken places, regular replenishment of fuel and provisions. And this in those days, without a radio, with a telegraph only in rare places.
    “Do not always reflect the competence of a person” - the author, learn Russian, not COMPETENCES, there is no such word in Russian, but competence, professionalism, and as a private factor - experience.
    As for the choice of admirals from the available composition, how many of them were there at that time, and how many of them had REAL experience in commanding squadrons and long voyages? With the commanders of the ships it is even worse, the fleet was growing by leaps and bounds, where was it to get the trained personnel?
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 22 July 2021 10: 01
      +6
      do not always reflect the competence of a person "- the author, learn Russian, not COMPETENCES, there is no such word in Russian, but competence,

      You're wrong. Since the introduction of the Bologna system in education, the term "competence" appears. And these very competencies are now taught in universities.
      Otherwise I agree with you. Summing up, we can recall the expression that "Wars are won by soldiers, and generals are losing." Despite education and experience, the outcome of the war is sad.
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 22 July 2021 21: 10
        0
        This, of course, is not on the topic, but I am guided by the dictionary of the Russian language or the dictionary of foreign words, this word is not there. The topic is sad and painful.
        1. tasha
          tasha 23 July 2021 07: 06
          +2
          COMPETENCE, and, w. 1. The circle of questions, in which someone is. knowledgeable (book). The case enters into smb. competence. 2. The circle of someone's. powers, rights (special). K. court ...
          From the Dictionary of the Russian language by S.I. Ozhegova. 8th edition, 1970.
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 July 2021 07: 51
      0
      Quote: Sergey Valov
      Where did the Russian sailors have combat experience for the RYAV?

      You know what's interesting. At that moment, no one had any combat experience except the Japanese and the Americans. (Well, the Chinese and the Spaniards :))
      The Germans had no naval traditions at all, and the only naval battle in Franco-Prussia was a gunboat and Aviso shootout at the end of the day. And yet.
      The British, too, have not seriously fought at sea since the Crimean War. Beatty's only combat experience prior to WWI was commanding a river gunboat during a colonial expedition.
  9. Maxim G
    Maxim G 22 July 2021 14: 28
    +1
    Nebogatov is the most competent, he would have led the squadron.
    1. Andy
      Andy 22 July 2021 15: 17
      +1
      add "before delivery to the Japanese" and I agree with you. seeing the failure of Rozhdestvensky and Felkersam (I have no information whether he knew about the "davit broke"), do not take the lead of the squadron. but at the end of the battle, in the twilight, drown in so that half the scenes would be lost ... but even the rest brought the Japanese in a predictable way
      1. Maxim G
        Maxim G 22 July 2021 15: 36
        +1
        Quote: Andy
        add "before delivery to the Japanese" and I agree with you. seeing the failure of Rozhdestvensky and Felkersam (I have no information whether he knew about the "davit broke"), do not take the lead of the squadron.

        And where did he have to get up? There was an order corresponding to the squadron - in case the flagship leaves, we follow the next, etc. When the order was conveyed to him that command was transferred to him, he took command.

        Quote: Andy
        but at the end of the battle, in the twilight, drown in so that half the scenes will be lost ...

        It is only his fault that the ships that Rozhdestvensky brought were not trained to follow the stern fire closed from the sides, or that many ships were shot down and / or were old and could not follow them, that Enquist threw them, that destroyers scattered, which eventually the squadron ceased to exist as a whole. Did he arrange it all? What he could and did in that situation.

        [quote = Andy but even the remainder led the Japanese in a predictable way [/ quote]
        We went as ordered to Vladivostok, heading Nord 23, in order to meet our own in the morning on the same course.
        It was thanks to his maneuver and the fact that they were accustomed to go with extinguished fires that torpedoes were avoided.
        When the Japanese cruisers appeared in the morning, they tried to attack them.
        1. Andy
          Andy 22 July 2021 15: 58
          +1
          It is only his fault that the ships brought by Rozhdestvensky were not trained to follow the stern fire closed from the sides,

          in fact, they were damaged and he left them ... and turned defeat into a disaster with the shame of surrender ... yes, guilty. that's why he is an admiral to think ...
          1. A_Mazkov
            A_Mazkov 22 July 2021 17: 47
            +1
            Well, strictly speaking, Nebogatov did not "abandon" them, but lost them in the dark, as they fell behind due to damage.
            The only thing that can be blamed on Nebogatov is the surrender of the remnants of the Baltic Fleet, and then with a bunch of reservations.
            1. Andy
              Andy 22 July 2021 18: 12
              +1
              This is the same. that the ships were damaged he could not help but know. as I could and inquire about their condition
              1. A_Mazkov
                A_Mazkov 23 July 2021 11: 41
                0
                Alas! But "seven do not wait for one." The cruel truth of life due to the war moment.
                This happened more than once later, during the naval battles of both the First and Second World Wars.
                He was convicted precisely for raising the surrender signal, having the opportunity to continue the fight (the latter, given the combined power of the buckets with nuts under his command, is very controversial).
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 24 July 2021 07: 54
                  0
                  Quote: A_Mazkov
                  the latter, given the combined power of the buckets of nuts under his command, is very controversial

                  Weird. The Japanese did not find his ships severely damaged, and two months later they used them (except for the "Eagle") in the capture of Sakhalin.
                  1. A_Mazkov
                    A_Mazkov 25 July 2021 00: 35
                    0
                    Of course, they were quite suitable for fire support of the troops, and
                    condemned Nebogatov for the surrender of the ships quite rightly, perhaps they should have been flooded.
                    But the conclusion of the court about the possibility of continuing the battle with the Japanese fleet is, of course, absurd. Painfully, the forces are incomparable.
          2. Maxim G
            Maxim G 22 July 2021 18: 04
            +1
            What did he need to do and what could he do?

            By the way, the "Eagle all battered" was also damaged, but was able to keep up with the ships of the non-rich.
            1. Andy
              Andy 22 July 2021 18: 10
              +1
              once called himself an admiral, then command. and it was enough to order an increase in speed, abandoning half of the ships and raising a white flag ... that's all that SMOG
            2. Andy
              Andy 22 July 2021 18: 18
              0
              in fact, he almost fell on board holding such a course. about this I have an unloved novikov. What is the point of this race if an admiral without a squadron comes running to Vladivostok?
              1. Maxim G
                Maxim G 22 July 2021 23: 57
                0
                Without a squadron, the Russian fleet left Rozhdestvensky in the afternoon, with its wise command. Nebogatov saved what he could. By the way, when did you give 12 knots?
            3. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 22 July 2021 20: 52
              +2
              Quote: Maxim G
              What did he need to do and what could he do?

              What did Miklukho-Maclay do in his place on the Ushakov, Lebedev on the Donskoy, Shein on the Svetlana? Yes, the same Enquist!
              1. Maxim G
                Maxim G 22 July 2021 23: 48
                0
                Enquist fled to Manila, violating orders
                and before that, having abandoned the squadron, Nebogatov went to Vladivostok to the last, following the order, surrendering only when it was not possible to inflict at least some serious damage to the enemy. In the morning, when they were met by a Japanese cruiser, he tried to attack them.

                Let me remind you that "Svetlana", that "Dmitry Donskoy" fought with cruisers and were able to achieve hits.

                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 23 July 2021 15: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Maxim G
                  Enquist fled to Manila, violating orders

                  Enquist led the remaining cruisers under his command, preventing their surrender or death.
                  Lebedev could not get away from the Japanese, but he brought his ship to the island of Dazhelet, where he flooded, allowing the team to escape.
                  Shein and Miklouho-Maclay fought to the last and laid down their heads.
                  Between the discovery by the Japanese of the remnants of the Russian squadron under the command of Nebogatov, until its encirclement passed five hours... During this time (actually before) he should have made a decision. Or he can fight and then go and fight. Either he cannot fight, and then this time should have been used to save the crew and render the materiel unusable.
                  Nebogatov did neither one nor the other. a, quote
                  Quote: Maxim G
                  until the last went to Vladivostok following the order

                  Actually, admirals have a head, not only for wearing a uniform headdress.
                  1. Maxim G
                    Maxim G 25 July 2021 16: 45
                    0
                    Quote: Senior Sailor

                    Actually, admirals have a head, not only for wearing a uniform headdress.

                    How Nebogatov could have known IN ADVANCE that:
                    1. Enquist on fast cruisers instead of staying with their battleships and helping in repelling mine attacks
                    Quote: Senior Sailor

                    led away the cruisers remaining under his command, preventing their surrender or death.

                    2. The torpedo boats will scatter in all directions, and will also not help the battleships to fight back, but will only save themselves.
                    3. The ships brought by Rozhdestvensky are not trained to walk behind a stern lantern closed from the sides, or to darken, and will give out themselves with light and die from torpedoes and floating mines.

                    Those. the size of the squadron after the night will sharply decline.

                    4. The Japanese have a well-established intelligence service and are easy to spot.
                    5. The Japanese fleet suffered little.

                    Quote: Senior Sailor

                    Between the discovery by the Japanese of the remnants of the Russian squadron under the command of Nebogatov, until its encirclement passed five hours... During this time (actually before) he should have made a decision. Or he can fight and then go and fight. Either he cannot fight, and then this time should have been used to save the crew and render the materiel unusable.
                    Nebogatov did neither one nor the other. a, quote

                    Nebogatov tried to attack the armored cruisers.
                    They dodged.
                    When it became clear that they were surrounded by the main forces, it was already too late.


                    PS My personal opinion about errors:
                    1. Nebogatov in vain tried to unite with Rozhestvensky's squadron - there was little sense from his old chests, apparently he wanted to be as useful as possible (first of all, in developing a breakthrough plan and sailing experience in this region). He himself would have reached the Strait of La Perouse with his detachment.

                    2. It was necessary to withdraw the entire squadron to the south. It is even better that this happened earlier - when it was led by "Emperor Alexander III"
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 27 July 2021 12: 34
                      0
                      Quote: Maxim G
                      How Nebogatov could have known IN ADVANCE that

                      How did all of the following help him?
                      besides, points 4 and 5 are obvious. As for 2, then, suddenly, the destroyers were not supposed to "help fight back." They would only get in the way. In addition, this paragraph directly contradicts 3. That is, either go quietly without lights, or fight back.
                      Quote: Maxim G
                      When it became clear that they were surrounded by the main forces, it was already too late.

                      Of course. But it was five o'clock before.
                      Quote: Maxim G
                      It was necessary to withdraw the entire squadron to the south.

                      Perhaps.
                      1. Maxim G
                        Maxim G 30 July 2021 13: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Senior Sailor

                        How did all of the following help him?

                        So the squadron would be more and not scattered.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor

                        besides, points 4 and 5 are obvious.

                        No. The Japanese squadron left and no one knew its condition, while it is not necessary to destroy the ship in order for it to cease to be combat-ready (for example, the Eagle was also afloat, but seriously damaged).

                        The Tsushima Strait was passed and there was a possibility that they would not be noticed in the open.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor

                        As for 2, then, suddenly, the destroyers were not supposed to "help fight back." They would only get in the way.
                        In addition, this paragraph directly contradicts 3. That is, either go quietly without lights, or fight back.

                        The main idea was that cruisers and destroyers had to go with their battleships, following orders, and not run away or scatter.
                        Nothing prevented Enquist when the Japanese cruisers and battleships left, and Japanese destroyers appeared to counterattack, using new cruisers, our destroyers could support him.

                        Does not contradict, tk. in reality, part of the squadron went out with the lights off, and part of the squadron revealed itself with the light of searchlights (I do not know if this is the only reason for the discovery by the Japanese of our ships). At the same time, our ships fired at the destroyers (2 were sunk, somewhat damaged).

                        If, for one reason or another, the ship was discovered (of course, it is better that this does not happen), then it is better that as many guns as possible hit the Japanese destroyers.
                        Both our cruisers and destroyers had guns of 75 mm and higher capable of effectively hitting destroyers. And on May 15 there will be cases of battles between our destroyers and enemy destroyers.


                        Quote: Senior Sailor

                        Of course. But it was five o'clock before.


                        5 hours before, the main forces did not surround Nebogatov, they appeared about half an hour before the surrender.
                      2. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 30 July 2021 13: 22
                        -1
                        Sorry, I have no desire to comment on all your fantasies, therefore, briefly ...
                        So the squadron would be more and not scattered.

                        This would only increase the number of losses.
                        Enquist was smart enough to understand that the battle was lost and that he had to retreat, but Nebogatov was not.
                        The Japanese squadron left and no one knew its condition

                        Oh really? Nobody saw that the enemy did not lose a single pennant? That the enemy fire hasn't diminished?
                        for example, "Oryol" was also afloat, but seriously damaged

                        So-so example. Although, of course, the officers of the battleship and especially Kostenko managed to convince everyone that there was no ammunition left, and that he received 100500 hits ...
                        The Tsushima Strait was passed and there was a possibility that they would not be noticed in the open.

                        Not the slightest. Do you know how many scouts Togo had? The destination is known ... an equation without unknowns.
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        5 hours before, the main forces did not surround Nebogatov, they appeared about half an hour before the surrender.

                        From the moment the remnants of the squadron were discovered, the appearance of the main forces was only a matter of time. Which Nebogatov incompetently missed.
                      3. Maxim G
                        Maxim G 1 August 2021 16: 07
                        0
                        If you do not want to comment, leave the topic, I also have no desire to discuss with a person who does not respect interlocutors.
                      4. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 1 August 2021 16: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        to debate

                        You can debate with people who hear opponents and have at least basic knowledge of the topic.
                        So far, this has not been observed.
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        leave the topic

                        Are you the author of the post? Apparently not. Then what is it for?
  • rytik32
    rytik32 22 July 2021 17: 01
    +2
    Nebogatov would have led a squadron around Japan, therefore he would have brought
    1. Maxim G
      Maxim G 22 July 2021 18: 08
      0
      Yes. I think so too.
      Moreover, if the squadron had waited a couple of weeks, the summer months would have begun, and in the summer months fogs last for 63 days (30 days in spring).
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 22 July 2021 20: 53
      +1
      There they would have caught him, with about the same result.
  • stafford41
    stafford41 22 July 2021 15: 15
    +4
    Author, correct this blunder in the article! Rozhestvensky from 1903 was the chief of the Main Naval Staff of the Main Naval Staff, not the Naval General Staff of the Main Naval Staff, which was not yet in Russia at that time. And the General and General Staffs are very different headquarters!
  • Non-fighter
    Non-fighter 22 July 2021 16: 26
    +1
    They were dominated by the last order, which no longer had any meaning or the slightest relation to reality.

    Are you talking about "Course NW23", in short, to Vladivostok?
    The battle at Cape Shantung, or rather its finale. In fact, the Russian squadron completed the task, broke through, but literally with the last shell they kill the flagship. And what do we see? Some in the forest, some for firewood. Someone returned to Port Arthur for certain death, someone guessed to escape to neutrals and intern there. Nobody went to Vladivostok :(
    1. rytik32
      rytik32 22 July 2021 16: 36
      +2
      Quote: Not the fighter
      Nobody went to Vladivostok :(

      "Novik" went and would have reached if it had not been burned from the steamer and reported to the Japanese.
      1. Non-fighter
        Non-fighter 22 July 2021 16: 39
        +2
        I agree, “Novik” had chances. But the rest of the squadron ?? The Japanese did not drown ANY battleship.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 22 July 2021 20: 55
          0
          Quote: Not the fighter
          The Japanese did not drown ANY battleship.

          Just do not have time.
          It is a myth that the squadron almost broke through. In fact, the Russian ships were beaten (except, perhaps, "Pobeda") and the repeated battle simply would not have survived.
          1. stafford41
            stafford41 22 July 2021 21: 14
            0
            It depends on what kind of re-fight they would not have sustained? If a repeated battle a la the first hours of the battle on July 28, with distances of 60-80 cables, then perhaps they would have survived. If a battle a la Tsushima with a decisive rapprochement of up to 13 cable, then, of course, they would hardly have survived.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 22 July 2021 21: 18
              0
              Quote: Stafford41
              If a repeated battle a la the first hours of the battle on July 28, with distances of 60-80 cables, then perhaps they would have survived.

              Very unlikely, Heihachiro Idzhuinovic again began to twist pirouettes at a long distance. He was already convinced of the futility of this and the second time on the same rake he hardly began to step on.
              1. stafford41
                stafford41 22 July 2021 21: 31
                0
                How does Togo learn about the real state of the Russian squadron after the battle on July 28? He does not know how badly the Russians are damaged, and what they can and what can no longer? In addition, he had serious reasons to fight from a long distance on July 28. What will happen if the Russians sink one of his ships from the main forces or severely damage (until the complete loss of combat effectiveness)? Rozhdestvensky is about to leave the Baltic. And this is an immediate change in the balance of forces not in favor of the Japanese. Therefore, Togo has to be careful, since he will have to meet the Second Squadron with something. And the very same reinforcements to take nowhere. Mikasa was beaten so well on July 28 with heavy losses in personnel. On July 29, she might never have been.
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 22 July 2021 21: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Stafford41
                  How does Togo learn about the real state of the Russian squadron after the battle on July 28?

                  He will see it with his own eyes. "Tsarevich" no, "Retvizan" got up with a damaged nose to the wave and also hardly reached it. Poltava and Seva had no chances to reach Vladik from the very beginning.
                  Quote: Stafford41
                  he will have to meet the Second Squadron with something.

                  Moreover, there is no way out.
                  Quote: Stafford41
                  Mikasa was beaten so well on July 28 with heavy losses in personnel.

                  "Mikasu" as a last resort can be left in Sasebo, but add Kamimura's squad.
                  1. stafford41
                    stafford41 22 July 2021 21: 57
                    0
                    If the squadron does not restore controllability and a unified command, then there is no need to talk about a breakthrough and continue the battle.

                    And Togo had a wonderful way out. Taking advantage of the training of Japanese artillerymen and materiel for long-range battles, try to knock out most of the Russian artillery from 60-80 cables without receiving a clear response from the Russians, and only then draw closer to finish them off. This he did on July 28th. A very careful and wise tactic.
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 22 July 2021 22: 02
                      0
                      Quote: Stafford41
                      And Togo had a wonderful way out. Taking advantage of the training of Japanese artillerymen and materiel for long-range battles, try to knock out most of the Russian artillery from 60-80 cables without receiving a clear response from the Russians, and only then draw closer to finish them off. This he did on July 28th. A very careful and wise tactic.

                      Absolutely not feasible in those conditions. He doesn't have that many 12 "left, and 8" doesn't hit that far. Therefore, only quickly approach and crush with fire, as in the second phase of the battle in the GM.
                      1. stafford41
                        stafford41 22 July 2021 22: 12
                        0
                        Normally, Togo had 305 mm shells left after July 28. Rapprochement with the Russians the next day is a very risky move. 152-203 mm Japanese shells will not be able to quickly knock out Russian artillery, and a response from a short distance will fly to the Japanese. And by no means only 152 mm and 203 mm, but also heavier, which is especially dangerous for the not well-protected Japanese armored cruisers. Capital ships cannot lose before the arrival of Rozhdestvensky. Because such losses radically change the balance of power in favor of the Russians. This paradigm fetters him very well, forcing him to be careful.
                      2. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 23 July 2021 15: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Stafford41
                        Normally, Togo had 305 mm shells left after July 28.

                        There are many shells, few barrels. Only eleven.
                        And at a short distance the Japanese were much more effective.
                      3. stafford41
                        stafford41 23 July 2021 15: 41
                        0
                        At short distances, the Russians were much more effective. It would be a lottery. While at long distances the Japanese would have been guaranteed to remain invulnerable from the Russian response.
      2. 27091965
        27091965 22 July 2021 22: 19
        0
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        It is a myth that the squadron almost broke through.

        Dear Ivan. I will expose a scan, perhaps he met you, what do you think about this.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 23 July 2021 15: 47
          0
          I'm not sure if I understood the question correctly.
          But KMK, Vitgeft believed that all forces should be applied to the defense of Port Arthur, reducing purely naval operations to a minimum.
          1. 27091965
            27091965 23 July 2021 20: 32
            0
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            I'm not sure if I understood the question correctly.
            But KMK, Vitgeft believed that all forces should be applied to the defense of Port Arthur, reducing purely naval operations to a minimum.


            The question was that in the work of the historical commission, we immediately see an order to break through to Vladivostok, in the work from which a scan was taken, initially a breakthrough to Vladivostok was envisaged as a last resort, and later was canceled, the telegram numbers are indicated. It was required to conduct a battle with the Japanese fleet. Therefore, I wanted to know if you have not met this part of the orders that were missed in the work of the historical commission?
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 July 2021 07: 44
              0
              Got it.
              Unfortunately not.