"Era of Gorshkov"

67

The "finest hour" of the Soviet fleet?


The previous part of his essay, which in parallel examines the main milestones in the development of the domestic naval fleet and railway transport, I named after Nikita Khrushchev. And he named this one in honor of Admiral Sergei Gorshkov, who spent longer than anyone else at the head of the Soviet (and Russian - too) fleet.

Moreover, judging by the reaction in the comments to the previous part, the very proposal to look at the figure of Khrushchev with an open mind caused a very violent reaction from a certain category of readers. One can imagine how violent the reaction will be to approach Gorshkov's assessment critically, that is, in accordance with the rules historical science, and not apologetically, as is customary in propaganda. However, my texts are designed for sane readers, who are likely to see in them a rational kernel and an opportunity to form a more reliable idea of ​​the past.

Formally, the "Era of Gorshkov" began in 1956 (and even earlier, since, in fact, he was the most influential person in the leadership of the fleet since June 1955, when he was entrusted with the duties of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy). Sergei Georgievich signed requirements for the development of fundamentally new surface ships that replaced torpedo-artillery ships, which flourished during the era of two world wars, and submarines. He, as the commander-in-chief of the fleet, is also responsible for his defeat during the Cuban missile crisis, as mentioned in my two previous articles.



But the main period of Gorshkov's stay at the head of the Soviet navy fell on the years when Leonid Brezhnev was at the head of the USSR. In the literature, it is customary to emphasize the warm relations that developed between these two figures and largely predetermined the heyday that our naval forces experienced during this period.

Let's try to assess the validity of this judgment.

For this, first of all, let us highlight some important features of this historical period.

According to an increasingly important point of view in the social sciences, in 1968-1975 our civilization entered a new stage of its development. Its name has not yet been fully established. In particular, they talk about the service era that has replaced the industrial one. But in any case, the dramatic changes that swept around the world during this period make it possible to speak of a change in the development paradigm.

It covers many different aspects, but we will touch on only one of them related to changing views on the future of military conflicts. It was during this period that it became clear that the mobilization model characteristic of the First and Second World Wars was becoming a thing of the past. It was required to "grope" for a new military doctrine, within the framework of which both conduct combat training and the construction of the armed forces.

In the United States, such a doctrine has become "flexible response", that is, preparation for waging wars of varying intensity and scope. The possibility of a global nuclear missile conflict between NATO and the Warsaw bloc was taken into account, although its probability was already estimated much lower than in the first years after 1945.

It was becoming more and more obvious to Washington that the politicians in the Kremlin were ordinary people, not maniacs like Hitler; and they are not at all going to step into the abyss, "taking" with them tens or even hundreds of millions of people. And if this is so, then we need to prepare for other, more real wars that can bring obvious benefits to America. This approach, of course, was extremely cynical. But, on the other hand, he only repeated the one that dominated the world for centuries: war is an integral part of human activity and it is apparently impossible to completely exclude it from the latter in principle.

It is only necessary to strive to limit it to certain limits, going beyond which threatens to cause excessive humanitarian and civilizational damage. This also applies to naval wars, which, although they are much more rare than land wars, also happen from time to time.

Unfortunately, on the other side of the Iron Curtain, for various reasons, they were unable to come to similar, completely logical conclusions. At the helm of the USSR by this moment there were people in whose lives the Second World War left an unhealed mark. As a result, the desire to prevent this from happening again absolutely dominated in their minds and exerted a direct influence on the policy being implemented. Of course, the participation of the USSR in wars and military conflicts.

In the USSR, unfortunately, they were unable to develop a similar doctrine that would meet modern requirements. Instead, the propaganda slogan "protecting world peace" increasingly determined the real military policy. This applied to both the army and the navy.

In particular, the task of preventing a new world conflict, now in a nuclear missile form, has become the main one facing the Soviet Navy. Thus, the criterion for the success of the fleet was not victories, but the lack of participation in conflicts. This very non-participation could already be interpreted as a successful activity of the fleet, the justification of all aspects of its organization.

It is clear that in such a situation, any expansion of its structures could only evoke approval, and the negative impact on the economy, to which such an expansion led, was rejected: can there be an excessive price paid for the preservation of peace?

Now let's turn to the question - how exactly did the "Gorshkov fleet" realize this task of preventing war?

This activity can be divided into two parts. The first refers to the strategic nuclear forces (in the role of which, since the 60s, nuclear submarines - carriers of ballistic nuclear missiles have been acting). Their appearance not only put on the agenda the need to put such ships on combat duty, but also put forward new requirements for anti-submarine weapons designed to search and, if necessary, destroy those from the enemy. Of course, the Soviet fleet could not help but be involved in such activities.

But, in addition, on the initiative of Gorshkov, the concept of the so-called "combat service" was formulated, according to which Soviet ships were to conduct continuous monitoring of the American ships, in order to prevent them from delivering a surprise strike. And first of all, American aircraft carriers were subject to such supervision and escort. But the justification of this task today raises certain doubts, since the very role that aircraft carriers played in the American fleet has undergone significant changes as the Cold War continued.

As mentioned in the previous part of the article, at the turn of the 40s and 50s, they were adapted for the basing of the first carrier-based aircraft - carriers of atomic bombs and were considered as part of a strike "fist" intended for a nuclear attack on the USSR. In particular, striking air defense airfields in order to prevent Soviet fighters from countering American strategic bombers' raids on cities deep in Soviet territory.

However, it should be emphasized that, according to the views of the time, the nuclear strike should have been delivered not at the very beginning of the conflict, but during its subsequent phase. And the task of suppressing air defense, the implementation of which was supposed to precede the start of nuclear bombings, was seen as too responsible and serious to count on solving it only by means of a deck aviation... Therefore, by the mid-1950s, aircraft carriers are beginning to be seen more and more as a tactical combat system, whose combat use is possible not only in a world thermonuclear conflict, but also in the course of "small" wars: to deliver strikes on the territory of countries with which the United States entered into conflict. And it is this role that they play to this day.

Unfortunately, these changes in the role assigned to aircraft carriers went unnoticed in the USSR. And within the framework of the very system of "combat service" introduced by Admiral Gorshkov, escorting American aircraft carrier strike groups has become one of the main tasks facing Soviet sailors. Some of them to this day are proud to have participated in its implementation, claiming that it was thanks to this that the world was saved.

But it is impossible to agree with this statement. Since, as already mentioned, the immediate threat of an attack on the USSR did not come from the aircraft carriers. Its carrier was nuclear submarines with nuclear ballistic missiles, and aircraft carriers solved completely different tasks, which the Soviet fleet, in fact, could not resist.

And connected with this, perhaps, the greatest flaw in the concept of "combat service", which was the basis of the activities of the Soviet Navy, headed by S. Gorshkov. It consisted in the fact that the initiative was completely surrendered to the enemy (even if in that era he was necessarily called "conditional"). Indeed: the Soviet fleet only followed the American one; pursuing their own, independent goals in such an environment was completely ruled out.

Here we can draw a certain analogy with the period of the late XIX - early XX centuries, when the “census” system operated in the Russian Imperial Navy, which was subjected to such massive criticism after the Tsushima defeat. She motivated the officers to make long voyages, but conduct exercises, combat maneuvering, improve the use of weapons within its framework, due attention was not paid. The result of such an imbalance in the combat training of the fleet was that the Second Pacific Squadron, having made an unprecedented transition from the Baltic Sea to the Far East, could not, having met the enemy, impose its will on him, eventually suffering a natural defeat.

The practical activities of the Soviet fleet in the 1970s-1980s also led to a similar "Tsushima".

However, why did she lead? She brought her to her! Indeed, it was during this period that the economy (and all other spheres of social life) of the USSR entered a stable “peak” that ended in its collapse. It is clear that the fleet by its activities contributed only to the growth of government spending, and not vice versa. And thus, the growth of the fleet (when S. Gorshkov was at its head) objectively brought the collapse of the country closer, for whose economy it was becoming an increasingly heavy burden.

Although, from the point of view of the ability of the leadership of the fleet to defend the interests of their department, this period is in fact sometimes its peak.

In this regard, an illustrative episode comes to mind. The former commander of the Long-Range Aviation V.V. Reshetnikov in his memoirs, describing the flights of his heavy air ships to reconnaissance of American aircraft carriers, makes a grumpy remark to Admiral Gorshkov, on whose initiative the "land" pilots were entrusted with this task. Here's how: now the sailors, in fact, led the representatives of another military "department".

But once upon a time, on the contrary, they themselves were under the operational subordination of the army command. So, I repeat, in this sense, thanks to the efforts of Gorshkov, the fleet certainly reached the peak of its power.

But was it good from the point of view, so to speak, of national interests?

After all, this most powerful fleet took away a huge share of resources that could be directed to the development of the national economy, which was in dire need of urgent modernization efforts. Yes, and in the ground army, as shown, for example, the same Afghan war, there were also many bottlenecks that needed to be "embroidered", in bringing it to a "modern look", as it became fashionable to say during the "Serdyukov »Military reform (I intend to touch upon it in the next, concluding part of my article).

Moreover, the land army, although rarely, nevertheless took part in real hostilities. In addition to the aforementioned Afghanistan, it was, for example, the invasion of Hungary in 1956, and also in Czechoslovakia in 1968. But still the main source of combat experience for the USSR was the conflicts in the Middle East, Africa and Southeast Asia.

To avoid a direct confrontation with the Americans, who were practically indispensable in their participation, and did so under their "own flag," Soviet servicemen, as a rule, used the status of military advisers, which allowed them not to advertise their nationality. It is clear that for the fleet this method of "camouflage" was unacceptable, therefore, from the point of view of combat training, and from the point of view of the development of doctrinal guidelines, it found itself in the same "stagnation" as the whole country.

So it turns out that, although in some situations the Soviet fleet really played an important role in resolving certain crises in which the USSR was involved (to the greatest extent this applies to the 1973 Arab-Israeli war), but in general, being overly "carried away" by his main task - opposition to the Americans (and this opposition was largely speculative and not real, as mentioned above), he, in fact, did not prepare for other combat missions.

What kind of tasks could they be?

First of all, this refers to operations against the coast. Of course, the Soviet fleet was actively rehearsing the amphibious landings, which looked so impressive in the course of television reports. True, it should be borne in mind that these landings took place according to the canons of World War II, that is, they required the landing forces to approach directly to the coast. Our marines did not have the capabilities to carry out the over-the-horizon landing promising a lower level of losses, on which the Americans worked a lot.

But other methods of operations of the fleet against the coast were practically not taken into account. For example, this applies to the shelling of coastal targets by naval artillery. For this, there were no corrective groups capable of taking control of such a fire. But, say, the British in the Falklands War actively used this method, which became one of the components of their victory in it.

Today you can see how the history of the Gorshkov's fleet is being actively “corrected” “retroactively”; properties that he did not really possess are attributed to it (so far - gradually, almost imperceptibly to a superficial glance). So, in the hall of the Central Naval Museum in St. Petersburg, the exposition of which is dedicated to this period, under the showcase, which displays a model of the aircraft-carrying cruiser "Kiev" surrounded by ships of other types, there is a plate: "Aircraft Carrier Strike Group".

But a similar term was used precisely in the American Navy, and not in the Soviet! Yes, and the point is not in formal terminology, but also in the fact that in terms of strike missions, Soviet aircraft-carrying ships could not compare with American ones, limiting themselves to covering the squadron from the air and participating in anti-submarine warfare. And as for the fulfillment of long-range air defense missions, the Yak-38 VTOL aircraft based on the "Kiev" could not claim to be combat fighters, continuing to remain, in fact, experimental machines. Therefore, the full implementation of these tasks became available only with the construction of the Tbilisi aircraft carrier and the creation of a carrier-based version of the MiG-29 fighter for it, which made it possible to carry out a full-fledged air defense of ship formations (at least in theory).

Summarizing what has been said, it should be noted that the most important conceptual flaw of the "potkovsky" fleet was the fundamental impossibility of a situation when it would have taken the initiative in opening hostilities, which was, perhaps, one of the key drawbacks of the "combat service" concept.

At the suggestion of Admiral Gorshkov, Soviet propaganda put forward the slogan: "Aircraft carriers are a weapon of aggression." Perhaps this is completely true, and not only in relation to aircraft carriers, but also to the modern "large" fleet as a whole. Although aircraft carriers, indeed, more and more claimed the leading role in it. Not least because their capabilities in operations against the coast have steadily increased compared to other types of ships. And this function: to project force on directions remote from their own territory, in fact, determined the development of this class.

As the English say:

"In the event of war, our fleet will not wait for the enemy on its shores, but will meet him at the strangers."

Led by Gorshkov, the Soviet navy also regularly appeared on foreign shores - this is so. But he could not start hostilities there on orders from Moscow, and not following the situation that was developing on the spot. And this circumstance significantly affected its real combat significance. And Moscow, given the current policy and the military doctrine subordinate to it, could not give such an order either. So the fleet is constantly increasing in size and cost, while solving one single combat mission, which is the nuclear deterrence of the United States. At the same time, the fact that the means of a strategic first strike are deployed on submarine missile carriers, and carrier-based aircraft, since the 60s, are designed to solve other problems, has passed the attention of our naval strategists.

The transformation of the prevention of a world nuclear missile conflict not only as the main task of the fleet, but also as, in fact, the only task, was fraught with a serious mistake.

Indeed, in this case, the very fact that this war did not happen automatically meant the success of the fleet. But how, through the prism of such success, can we assess the need for further development of the fleet: what forces does it need in order to continue to successfully fulfill its mission?

The absence of a clear criterion (which, by and large, can only provide real combat experience), led to the fact that the fleet of the "potential enemy" - the United States - was more and more considered as a standard in the process of such development. Which "incidentally", in addition to preparing for a global nuclear-missile conflict, was also aimed at participating in local conflicts with much weaker opponents. Well, the fleets of the colonial empires entered the stage of disintegration in the second half of the XNUMXth century.

Nevertheless, such a “retrospective” terminology well illustrates the tendency inherent in the “Gorshkov era” to “reach out” to American “colleagues” all the time, convincing the country's leadership to allocate more and more resources for the development of the fleet. From the point of view of the interests of the fleet itself, this was perhaps not bad. He grew in number, new vacancies were opened, thereby providing career opportunities for naval officers; in competition with representatives of other branches of the armed forces, their positions have strengthened in comparison with previous times.

As for the thesis that the existence of just such a powerful fleet was vital to prevent a third world war (in which some of its most fanatical fans seem to still believe), it does not stand up to serious criticism. Suffice it to recall that even after the beginning of the "decline" of this fleet, when it clearly gave up the task of containing the fleet of the United States and other NATO countries, the third world war did not come (to everyone's happiness, of course). Moreover, not a single acute international crisis that threatened to escalate into it has also happened. But the costs of creating and maintaining the naval forces were an increasingly heavy burden on the country's economy, which was already experiencing a crisis of efficiency, while the benefits associated with the real combat use of our naval power were, in fact, unattainable.

It seems to me that in our today's assessment of the "great fleet of Admiral Gorshkov" this circumstance must be taken into account.

Steel tracks of the era of "stagnation"


And now again, as in all previous "series", we turn to the topic of railway transport of the Country of Soviets.

What marked its development in the 70-80s?

As we remember, in the second half of the 50s - 60s, a real breakthrough was made in this development. In the professional environment, it is often called "traction reconstruction", meaning the replacement of outdated steam locomotives with more advanced types of locomotives - diesel locomotives and electric locomotives. But, as it was said in the previous part, electrification became the technological "foundation" of this reconstruction, which made it possible not only to launch the most productive type of locomotives on the most heavily loaded lines - electric, but also to provide electricity to numerous civil consumers at stations and along the tracks.

Although the declared figure of 40 thousand km of electrified kilometers of railways in the period 1956-1970 was not achieved (in fact, it was completed by about 2/3), it can be said that the appearance of steel lines during this period underwent radical changes. However, by the end of the 60s, the pace of electrification slowed down significantly. On the one hand, it was not always economically feasible to use electric locomotives where diesel locomotives did an excellent job. On the other hand, there was not enough free electric power. Numerous industrial enterprises continued to be built in the country, competing with the railway for access to electricity.

And here both the leadership of the Ministry of Railways and the State Planning Commission were required to find a new breakthrough technology that could form the basis of a new round of transport modernization, as was done in the early 30s and mid-50s. And this technology has already appeared. It was electronic equipment based on semiconductors: power, serving to work in supply networks, and low-current, designed for the tasks of controlling and monitoring networks and units. Its development over time has turned the most various areas of technology, including the technology of railways of foreign countries. So, on the basis of semiconductors, a new generation of electric locomotives was created, more economical and reliable, with more rational control and with better maintainability.

The introduction of semiconductor electronics on diesel locomotives made it possible to switch to a distributed traction system, when several locomotives, located not only in the head of the train, but also in the middle and in the tail, were synchronously controlled by one driver from the cab of the head. True, this option could be implemented only under the condition of a radical increase in the reliability of diesel engines in order to allow them to operate in an unattended mode. Namely: the traditional domestic problem with the reliability of power plants forced to carry out such an arrangement of diesel locomotives, which left access to them along the route.

In general, as already mentioned, all the possibilities of the progress of electronics for the modernization of railway transport were clearly underestimated. Instead, the approach of the past continued to dominate, with the emphasis on electrification and increasing the unit capacity of locomotives.

This was accompanied by quite anecdotal phenomena, one of which was the intensification of the "fight against steam locomotives." Although by this time on most main lines they were completely replaced by modern locomotives, they were still used on inactive ones. It would seem that one could come to terms with the fact that they will work for several more years in these areas until they exhaust their resource. Moreover, the path there was often weak, unable to withstand the loads from more powerful and heavy diesel locomotives. However, by this time, the rate of replacement of steam traction with a progressive one had become an important indicator by which the work of railway workers was assessed.

And thus, they were forced to constantly report that in this or that section, where steam locomotives used to work, trains are now driven by diesel locomotives. Most likely, this is precisely why the Ministry of Railways started purchasing M62 diesel locomotives.

This locomotive was developed at the Lugansk diesel locomotive plant in a smaller European size than the domestic one and with a reduced axle load, and since 1965 it has been supplied to the countries of Eastern Europe: Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, the German Democratic Republic and some others. And since 1970, they also began to work on domestic routes.

There is a legend among railway lovers that the growth of the M62 diesel locomotive fleet on the railways adjacent to the western border of the USSR was carried out at the request of the Ministry of Defense and was part of the preparations for the war in Europe. Proceeding from the fact that these diesel locomotives, which, as already mentioned, were created for operation precisely at this test site, having limitations for this in terms of size and axle load, its supporters believe that the supply of these locomotives from 1970 for operation also to Soviet lines was intended precisely to use them for the thrust of military echelons, which in the "special period" were to rush across the border to the West. This "theory" is frankly conspiracy in nature and is simply frivolous.

But the fact that, contrary to the original intentions, the M62 continued to be produced (including in modernized, two- and even three-section versions) in Lugansk until 2001, played a role in the crisis of the Ministry of Railways.

The fact is that, despite the attractive, "okay" appearance, a comfortable cab (it was created taking into account the "one-person" system adopted on foreign railways, that is, it was distinguished by a convenient layout of controls for their use only by the driver) , from a technical point of view, at the beginning of the 70s, the locomotive already looked very archaic. First of all, this applied to a two-stroke diesel engine, which was distinguished by an increased oil consumption; and also to traction transmission of constant-direct current. That is, the generator, driven by a diesel engine, produced a direct current, which was then supplied to traction motors, which had the same collector device. This increased the size and weight of the generator because AC electric machines are more compact and easier to maintain.

Therefore, immediately after the creation of the M62, the Lugansk plant began work on a new generation of diesel locomotives with a four-stroke diesel engine, alternating-direct current transmission (in which the alternating current generated by the generator is rectified and then supplied to the traction motors), the electric drive of auxiliary machines and other improvements. And, again, at first there appeared a machine intended for export (diesel locomotive TE109), and then it was the turn of the heavy two-section TE116, which was supposed to replace the aging TE3.

This work was very difficult, the elimination of emerging problems was slow. It would seem that in such a situation all forces should be concentrated on overcoming them in order to quickly "put on the wing" a fundamentally new, more efficient locomotive. But the plant workers instead dissipate their forces and put into production another type of diesel locomotive. And this is just one example of how palliative solutions have increasingly begun to replace truly disruptive technologies, leading to dissipation of efforts and slower growth.

There was also stagnation in the development of the designs of electric locomotives and electric trains. First of all, it consisted in the continuation of the use of the so-called contact-rheostat control system, rooted in the very beginning of the twentieth century. It was distinguished by large losses of electricity and the inability to smoothly regulate the voltage on traction motors. A breakthrough role here could also be played by the widespread use of power semiconductor technology, but the lag in this area was gaining momentum ...

Another factor that reduced the efficiency of the railways was the continuation of the course for their maximum mobilization use in the event of a war, which was formed at the dawn of their existence and so brilliantly justified itself during the Second World War (this was described in detail in one of the previous parts).

Therefore, many types of rolling stock continued to be built taking into account mobilization requirements. Thus, the most common long-distance passenger carriages, reserved seats, provided for the possibility of being included in freight trains and had completely autonomous life support systems (heating and power supply). This worsened the commercial characteristics of the cars, created obstacles to improving their design. At the same time, the era of mass armies, which demanded large-scale mobilization measures, was forever a thing of the past ...

As the demand for transportation grew (which was caused, among other things, by the imperfection of the Soviet economic mechanism), rail transport satisfied them less and less. The steel pipeline crisis was expanding.

This caused growing concern in the highest leadership circles, which from time to time sternly demanded the restoration of order. True, they had a very vague idea of ​​how to do this. One of the first to "fall under the hand" was the legendary minister Boris Beschev, who headed the industry, like S. Gorshkov, for almost 30 years: from 1948 to 1977. But, of course, it couldn't help; Beshchev's three successors, who took office before 1991, faced an ever-growing tangle of problems.

Conclusions


The two decades preceding the collapse of the USSR are a period of active action of those factors that served as prerequisites for this collapse and are well traced. At the same time, among people who, nostalgia for the Soviet period, does not allow them to recognize the regularity of its completion, it is customary to admire this period. This fully applies to the situation in the two areas we are considering: in the navy and in railway transport.

At first glance, in both regions there was an unprecedented flowering, expressed in the most extensive extensive growth in the entire history of development. More and more ships under the Soviet naval flag sailed the seas and oceans. The same applies to trains bearing the designation of the USSR Ministry of Railways: they ran more and more often, their weight and length increased. Everything seemed to be fine. As a matter of fact, patriots of both departments like to use this argument, proving that the objects of their adoration have nothing to do with the creation of a systemic crisis and the disintegration of the state caused by it; that all the problems were created by the efforts of some malefactors (agents of the West, separatists from national republics, degenerated partocrats - underline the necessary). However, in reality, both the fleet and the railways were sinking deeper into a quagmire of problems.

By the end of the "Gorshkov Era", the Soviet fleet far exceeded the requirements arising from the requirements of the necessary sufficiency for the defense of the country. Being completely sharpened for the preparation for the third world war (the prevention of which was at the same time his main task), he was completely unsuitable for use in local armed conflicts and thus transformed into a thing in itself, cumbersome, expensive and by and large useless. For the country's economy, which was losing its efficiency, it turned more and more into a burden, which it was unable to support.

On the railways, as mentioned above, a transportation crisis developed: they more and more could not cope with the requirements imposed on them. This resulted not only in a decline in economic indicators, but also in the growth of the “shadow economy”. In particular, theft on the railways (which was easier to produce, taking advantage of the confusion and low speed of delivery of goods), speculation in passenger tickets on the scarce (especially during the period of mass vacations) southern directions, grew. Well, the mechanic of the refrigerator section, in which the coveted delicacies were delivered, turned into one of the most corrupt figures.

Thus, despite the outward splendor, both the fleet and the railway transport by the end of the Soviet period were seriously ill organisms, the treatment of which turned out to be almost impossible due to the lack of a correct diagnosis.
  • Valery Stolov
  • http://razgromflota.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/nk1143kiev.jpg
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  1. +4
    19 July 2021 11: 09
    For the country's economy, which was losing its efficiency, it (the fleet) was increasingly turning into a burden, which it was unable to contain.

    Alas, everything is so ...
    1. -5
      19 July 2021 12: 01
      the switchman is to blame for everything!
      and who is to blame in the navy?


      I suggest another view - people who grew up in dugouts or in barracks until the end of their days (at least until retirement are happy with Khrushchevs and other benefits) carried the mentality "and so well," better than it was at 45, 49, 55 g. "
      it all depends on the kindergarten teacher and the primary school teacher. a change of generations is needed and now the receiver is young. with a different view of the development of the country.
      not against GDP, but against its opponents, but by other methods ...
      1. +15
        19 July 2021 12: 24
        do you believe in the tale of the "good tsar and bad boyars"? I envy your naivety.
        Especially touched by the idols of many of those who
        with a different view of the development of the country.
        - danya milokhin, morgenstern, all sorts of instasams, e-jays and others like them what
        1. -5
          21 July 2021 06: 57
          with a different view of the development of the country.
          - everything and everything depends on the teacher and on the teacher. too long a process, even for socialism. min 100 years. population density per 1 km and their number in the country, 101 more factors.
          abroad the desires and possibilities of GDP. if it is not obsequious to him, but simply with hope. any genius does not pull for 100 years of life. and management of the state 100 years is a historical process. and not the actions of a statesman.
          100 YEARS - "COLLECTIVE MIND"
          1. -1
            21 July 2021 07: 40
            "social being - determines social consciousness"! And what kind of life do we have today?
        2. +1
          21 July 2021 13: 51
          The author again persists in his heresy, without depth of knowledge, understanding and analysis.
          It was bad that the Navy was growing ... "but did not prevent war" ...?
          Precisely not prevented?
          Arab-Israeli presence and intentions?
          In third world countries, when the arrival of our ships often prevented intervention or thwarted attempts at a military coup ... There were many such cases, but the author is not aware of this ...
          The disadvantage (but also the reason for the longevity in such a high post) of Gorshkov was that he often followed the lead of the party leadership and the leadership of the Ministry of Defense. Instead of building classic aircraft carriers to ensure the stability of the Navy's forces, and normal aircraft for them, he agreed with Ustinov's ardent desire to have VTOL aircraft as carrier-based aircraft. As a result, the Krechet appeared, which were certainly powerful attack ships (heavy anti-ship missiles, anti-aircraft missile helicopters, attack aircraft), but were unable to provide air defense.
          Another mistake was the desire to leave outdated and useless ships in the ranks. There were already a lot of such people by the end of the 80s. Crews were kept on them, their maintenance cost a lot of money, they occupied parking spaces in bases ... and were outright ballast. At the same time, the rapidly growing fleet lacked trained officers, specialists, just crews. Send all this ballast to write-off or reserve in a timely manner, funds would be freed up both for the development of the naval base (with which it was not important), and for the timely repair of combat ships, the acute shortage of specialists would be smoothed out.
          And what was wrong with the shipbuilding programs?
          Destroyers of the "Sarych" class were quite good for their time and had a great potential for modernization. Having passed the modernization (which they planned) and having received the Onyx and Granat missile launchers, as well as the Shtil air defense missile system instead of the girder launcher, they would have been very formidable ships today.
          BOD 1155? Also, ships are exceptionally remarkable, with a powerful anti-submarine potential. They were also going to be modernized during the average planned repairs for Onyx, Granat and Calm, and after such modernization, their BC in the CD would be equal to the early Burkes, and those that would have been built according to the updated project would probably surpass them in impact potential.
          RK type "Atlant"?
          RC with nuclear power plant of the "Orlan" type?
          Excellent cruisers capable of destroying enemy AUGs with all escorts in one salvo.
          AV type "Kuznetsov" (AV Air Defense) and "Ulyanovsk"?
          The long-awaited aircraft carrier component of our Fleet. Complete component.
          Yes, and four "Gyrechats" of the first series, having received the Yak-141 and the AWACS helicopters acquired completely different qualities! They were already able to provide air defense for their KUG, full-fledged aerial reconnaissance on their own, target designation for heavy anti-ship missiles of KUG ships.

          The problem was the BALLAST of the old ships, which the party leadership did not want to write off for the sake of the figures of the total tonnage of the Fleet in a squeeze with the United States.
          Solely for show and statistics.

          And the fact that at the turn of the 70s - 80s the US Navy found the key to the "Gorshkov Doctrine" was not critical. It just took some time to stop their new moves. And we were quite capable of that.
          And pour ashes over their heads that they say "the USSR has overstrained" in the arms race ...
          Nonsense!
          Just the beginning of the 90s were supposed to be a new economic take-off of the economic power of the USSR. Since the beginning of the 90s, there has been a period of RETURN of loans issued by the Union to developing countries. Yes, those loans were often issued without interest, with a delay in the start of repayment for 10 - 15 - 20 years. But by this we created / acquired sales markets for ourselves, loans were issued not in money, but in commodity deliveries and the construction of industrial facilities and infrastructure in countries that had just emerged from colonial dependence. And this meant loading our enterprises and paying for their work from these very loans. In fact, we lent ourselves. And we owe it.
          And from the beginning of the 90s, these loans should have begun to return to us.
          Commodity deliveries from these countries and in the form of hard currency.
          And this is hundreds of billions of transferable rubles \ dollars.
          Over the years, these countries have already built their economies and become solvent markets for our goods.
          Since 1992, all these markets, including Eastern Europe, as well as the markets of the former Soviet Union went to the USA, England and their allies, after the betrayal of the conspirators of Belovezhskaya Pushcha.
          If this had not happened, and if the Union had taken the right management measures, the USSR would have been the No. 1 state in the world today.
          And the USA and Western Europe would have been in crisis since the 90s.

          But there is nothing more enjoyable for a liberal than to kick a long-defeated lion.
      2. 0
        20 July 2021 22: 49
        The housing problem was successfully solved even under Stalin, but the trouble is, Stalin began, and Khrushchev did not even finish, but only worsened the pace of implementation, but since there was still some progress, Khrushchev is a fine fellow in the eyes of people who do not differ from a dog that loves the one who falls asleep in the bowl for her food, but not the one who earns on this food.
      3. 0
        28 July 2021 17: 36
        it all depends on the kindergarten teacher and the primary school teacher. change of generations is needed now

        I can’t completely agree. Yes, it depends, but it is not these people that need to be changed, but children should be brought up so that they learn to think! Think about cause and effect. A non-thinking person simply could not make such an analysis as in this article, because on the surface everything was the other way around - great.

        A thinking person in any place and at any age will find the right solution, if not himself, then with the help of younger (but inexperienced!) Assistants. There are a lot of old people who think very clearly, although they do not know the latest fashion trends. They get the gist. Surely, they were brought up to do this, and by old age they also became wise. And they also fought and sat in dugouts. Who, I wonder, carried out the reforms in the 50-60s? Students? Veterans were at the helm. But during the stagnation there came many who did not fight.
        A young careerist, accustomed to cramming a textbook from school, by the age of 45 will become a general, admiral, director of an enterprise or a minister. And no initiative will pass through him, because he will always look for a teacher who will tell him what is right and what is not, and he will be afraid of his superior reprimand for wrong initiative. Sometimes this teacher is the US State Department or just the American model of life.
        Thinking is dangerous. They can be fired, called an upstart, an idiot, a homophobe, and they can call them short. And you have an apartment, a position, and so many privileges. These people can be understood.
        Better, probably, to earn everything by your labor, then you feel freer, in that pure and in the expression of your opinion.
    2. -1
      19 July 2021 20: 17
      you don’t understand that if it wasn’t spending on the defense industry we would have been devoured, the economy was sharpened for defense, as always in our history, and if you don’t want to understand this, then you are American hydrochloric acid
    3. +1
      20 July 2021 09: 53
      Yeah .. "Anyone can kick a dead lion" ©
  2. +14
    19 July 2021 11: 10
    Thus, despite the outward splendor, both the fleet and the railway transport by the end of the Soviet period were seriously ill organisms, the treatment of which turned out to be almost impossible due to the lack of a correct diagnosis.

    Two students of the "pathologist-anatomist" Gorbachev and Yeltsin came and cured the fleet, army and country.
    1. +15
      19 July 2021 11: 31
      Quote: tihonmarine
      Two students of the "pathologist-anatomist" Gorbachev and Yeltsin came and cured the fleet, army and country.

      This is how it turns out, but we are stupid and did not know that the USSR was a dead-end branch of development, only this dead-end branch, according to various estimates, from 15% to 20% of world GDP, but RUSSIA, which got up from its knees and switched to the right path, and 2 % does not pull. Okay, there is one guy who also works with the same opinion as the president of the Russian Federation, he said that the USSR could not produce galoshes, only he still flies on SOVIET planes and rockets.
      1. +10
        19 July 2021 11: 39
        Quote: kapitan281271
        only now he still flies on SOVIET planes and rockets.

        And this guy also has a trailer for the Niva.
        1. +10
          19 July 2021 12: 48
          You know, no matter how strange it may seem, especially I did not even consult with the doctors, I looked at my acquaintances - who is doing what.


          Well, just such a "guy from the people" .. I asked my friends which vaccine is better - I chose that one ..))

          for the most part, citizens of the country understand that if i saidthat he did the vaccine, then that's the way it is... At this level, it seems to me that people do not practice petty scam.


          Sechin's salary and his, he really does not know ??
          Or is this no longer a petty scam ??
          1. +6
            19 July 2021 14: 31
            Quote: Roman070280
            Or is it no longer small ...

            At this level, everything is "especially large" ...
          2. 0
            19 July 2021 15: 24
            for the most part, citizens of the country understand that if I said that I had been vaccinated, then this is the way it is

            At the everyday level of friends, acquaintances, relatives, this is usually true. Nobody will double-check.
            But at the political level it is SUDDENLY, it works a little differently. By being vaccinated publicly, political leaders are setting an example for other citizens. That they trust the vaccination process and that the procedure is completely safe and beneficial.
            1. +4
              19 July 2021 15: 27
              Well, at this level, there can be no friends and acquaintances at all ..
              He did not listen to doctors, but went and consulted with Medvedev and Lavrov ..
              Yeah .. that's how it was ..)) The first guy in the village ..
              1. -1
                19 July 2021 15: 29
                Well, at this level, there can be no friends and acquaintances at all ..

                So that's just the point ...
                Plus, for some time, it continued ... an unfunny circus with "I was vaccinated, but what vaccine I will not say." Who came up with this idea does not seem to understand at all how human psychology works.
        2. +3
          19 July 2021 14: 55
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          And this guy also has a trailer for the Niva.

          And "Moskvich-412" (got it from the dad).
      2. +3
        19 July 2021 12: 56
        but we are stupid and did not know that the USSR was a dead-end branch of development, only this dead-end branch, according to various estimates, from 15% to 20% of world GDP

        In what years and how exactly was this gross domestic product calculated? A small hint - the calculations of GDP based on "purchasing power parity" in countries with notoriously non-market pricing are almost guaranteed to give a deliberately incorrect result.
        According to the official reference book "The National Economy in the USSR in 1990," the gross domestic product in the USSR in 1990 amounted to 1000 billion rubles. At the official rate of 63 kopecks to the dollar - 1587 billion dollars. The US GDP for the same year is $ 5800 billion, for example.
        For comparison, in 2008, Russia's GDP was just under $ 1800 billion. At the official rate.
        Moreover, this rate was already market. In contrast to the "official exchange rate of the dollar against the Soviet ruble."
        1. +4
          19 July 2021 14: 59
          Quote: Terran Ghost
          In contrast to the "official exchange rate of the dollar against the Soviet ruble."

          1. 0
            20 July 2021 22: 17
            Unfortunately, the numbers cannot be made out, the fragment would be larger.
            1. 0
              20 July 2021 22: 32
              Quote: bot.su
              Unfortunately, the numbers cannot be made out, the fragment would be larger.

              There, in 1990, in short, there were three exchange rates: official, commercial, and some kind of special. I recently found this newspaper at the dacha, took a picture for the sake of laughter, as you can see, unsuccessfully. I try to increase it, but it gets blurry, you bastard. In general, the official one is the smallest, and the special one is the largest. And what is there for special, I still do not understand. And I don’t remember. This madhouse was already in the 90th.
    2. -3
      19 July 2021 19: 08
      Quote: tihonmarine
      Two students of the "pathologist-anatomist" Gorbachev and Yeltsin came and cured the fleet, army and country.

      Vlad spoke well hi And life has become better and life has become more fun ..
      I remember those screams of the liberdons in the 90s, and even now they howled again on all resources ..
      Why do we need the Army and the Navy, it’s better to give out to pensioners .. (and it’s already easier for pensioners to squeeze out and powder their brains) negative
      Everything starts again, as in the 90s, but the resistance goes to these demons, talkers of all stripes! Let them shout and gore throats .. The caravan is coming!
      Russia has only two allies, the Army and the Navy! This is how it was and will be under any government who are on friendly terms with their heads and understand.
  3. +6
    19 July 2021 11: 24
    Our marines did not have the capabilities to carry out the over-the-horizon landing promising a lower level of losses, on which the Americans worked a lot.
    Well, all the same, our fleet, in principle, did not prepare for overseas landings, as far as I know, but for the Baltic and the Black Sea Fleet, amphibious VTOL aircraft and aircraft were created, and with their speed, over-the-horizon in a limited theater of operations was provided by an automatic machine.
    1. +4
      19 July 2021 19: 06
      On the one hand, this is so. On the other hand, there was not a single case of real landing. Where, then, can the confidence that it was "provided by an automatic machine" come from?
      1. 0
        20 July 2021 03: 19
        Quote: Exval
        On the one hand, this is so. On the other hand, there was not a single case of real landing. Where, then, can the confidence that it was "provided by an automatic machine" come from?

        Over-the-horizon, in short, is the landing of an assault force, which does not imply the approach of the landing ship to the shore at a distance of visual contact. And the Americans are provided with SVPs, helicopters and convertiplanes. In a limited theater of operations, the role of a ship is played by the base, and the role of helicopters and tiltroplanes should have been ekranoplanes, well, with a SVP, and so it is clear. So over-the-horizon is automatic. )))
        1. +2
          20 July 2021 06: 59
          With this, I repeat, I am inclined to agree. My question was about something else. How, in the absence of real combat experience (and this applies not only to amphibious operations, but others as well), can we talk about the automatic possibility of their conduct? This, in fact, is one of the main meanings of the article (as well as the previous ones). The Soviet fleet did not have combat experience and all possible operations were planned purely speculatively. This circumstance makes it possible to very critically assess their real chances of success.
          1. 0
            20 July 2021 07: 09
            Quote: Exval
            My question was about something else. How, in the absence of real combat experience (and this applies not only to amphibious operations, but others as well), can we talk about the automatic possibility of their conduct?
            You strain your attention, I wrote about automatic over-the-horizon, and not about conducting operations!
            Quote: Exval
            The Soviet fleet did not have combat experience and all possible operations were planned purely speculatively.
            Okay, teachings, you and many of the amphibious operations of the Second World War do not consider experience? However ... By the way, the Americans also did not have post-war combat experience in amphibious operations, because all their landings took place in greenhouse conditions, without the slightest opposition. What happened later was another matter.
            1. +2
              20 July 2021 07: 28
              Just the same, the Americans had experience in amphibious operations, starting with Incheon. I don't understand - why deny the obvious?
              1. 0
                20 July 2021 08: 06
                Quote: Exval
                Just the same, the Americans had experience in amphibious operations, starting with Incheon. I don't understand - why deny the obvious?
                You do not understand the meaning of what you read the first time?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                because all of their disembarkation took place in greenhouse conditions, without the slightest opposition.

                The landing after a 45-minute aviation and artillery preparation was carried out in conditions of absolute air supremacy of American aviation... At about 6:30 am, a battalion of the Marine Corps began to land on the "green beach" in the northern part of Wolmido Island. By this time, the Wolmido garrison was almost completely destroyed by artillery and air strikes, and the marines only met weak resistance, taking control of the island in less than an hour with the loss of 17 people wounded.
                1. +4
                  20 July 2021 08: 11
                  No need to be rude, behave correctly. I repeat: the US Navy had experience in carrying out amphibious landings in combat conditions after WWII, and more than once. The Soviet fleet had no such experience. What's wrong here?
                  1. -2
                    20 July 2021 08: 15
                    Quote: Exval
                    I repeat: the US Navy had experience in carrying out amphibious landings in combat conditions after WWII, and more than once.

                    Once again, the landing took place in greenhouse conditions, against the obviously weakest enemy, what is wrong HERE?
                    Quote: Exval
                    No need to be rude, behave correctly.
                    No need to stupid.
                    1. +7
                      20 July 2021 08: 45
                      Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand the meaning of what you are writing about. If the launching of the landing forces was preceded by a COMPLETE suppression of the enemy from the air and by artillery fire, then this is precisely evidence of the correct conduct of the operation. It was thanks to this suppression that the landing was carried out without loss and was crowned with success. You are portraying the case as if the absence of losses indicates some kind of flaw in the operation.
                      1. -2
                        20 July 2021 08: 54
                        Quote: Exval
                        You are portraying the case as if the absence of losses indicates some kind of flaw in the operation.
                        Honor and praise to the Americans, now remind me of other post-war landings where similar measures were required? And explain why 5-6 years earlier amphibious operations are not considered combat experience for you?
                      2. +3
                        20 July 2021 09: 01
                        I am glad that you admitted that you were wrong on the Incheon issue. Unfortunately, the mass of excuses and excuses that you resort to, speak of the inability (or unwillingness) to conduct the discussion in good faith. In turn, I do not want to continue it in such conditions.
                      3. 0
                        20 July 2021 09: 16
                        Quote: Exval
                        I am glad that you admitted that you were wrong on the Incheon issue. Unfortunately, the mass of excuses and excuses that you resort to, speak of the inability (or unwillingness) to conduct the discussion in good faith. In turn, I do not want to continue it in such conditions.

                        Those. the experience of amphibious operations of the USSR Navy in the Great Patriotic War is not an experience for you. Well, the operation in Incheon was carried out in greenhouse conditions, air superiority was achieved long before the landing, no fire was fired on the landing ships.
                        Quote: Exval
                        In turn, I do not want to continue it in such conditions.
                        Yes, these are not greenhouse conditions for you, you have no experience. laughing
  4. +7
    19 July 2021 11: 37
    about the author's objective approach to Gorshkov ha ha twice. It couldn't!
    But I want to say something else. It seems to me that the naval command did not act rationally enough strategically. The fleet was created like some kind of special forces - jumped out, piled on, ran away.
    This also applies to the submarine fleet and, in general, the surface fleet too.
    But the main function of the fleet is to influence trade and transportation by its presence. They forgot about it. And, accordingly, the policy also did little to help the navy, tk. he had an insufficient network of bases.
    We created powerful missile cruisers with no less powerful missiles, the size of an elephant, which could hit a target over 700 km, but there were few ships that could keep control of some part of the sea. The only segment that seems rational to me is the composition of the squadron for operations in the Black Sea.
    The fleet was to act primarily not as a strike, but as an instrument for pushing economic and political interests. Therefore, the fleet became an unbearable burden.
    As for the United States, its fleet is constantly involved in servicing the control of maritime trade and pressure in case of any political difficulties.
    But what can I say - I remember the times when the Soviet fleet was helpless even in the face of poachers - it could not protect our fishing areas.
    1. +3
      19 July 2021 14: 35
      I absolutely agree with everything in your comments.
      Quote: yehat2
      But what can I say - I remember the times when the Soviet fleet was helpless even in the face of poachers - it could not protect our fishing areas.

      And I remember, but much later than Soviet times ...
    2. 0
      19 July 2021 14: 57
      Quote: yehat2
      As for the United States, its fleet is constantly involved in servicing the control of maritime trade and pressure in case of any political difficulties.

      It would be better if they caught Somali and Nigerian pirates.
      1. 0
        19 July 2021 19: 52
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Better they are Somali pirates

        Suddenly, it turned out that the pirates are better at catching land PMCs. The same Prince, with the support of the Saudi sheikhs, so cleaned the Somali pirates that they are not heard of.
  5. +6
    19 July 2021 11: 38
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Well, all the same, our fleet, in principle, did not prepare for overseas landings.

    If we exclude the landing on the coast, where tribes with bows and arrows live, then no fleet at all is suitable for overseas landings.
  6. +13
    19 July 2021 11: 55
    It seems to me that in our today's assessment of the "great fleet of Admiral Gorshkov" this circumstance must be taken into account.
    And it seems to me that in our today's assessment of Admiral Gorshkov it would be nice to take into account the opinion of a potential adversary from the documents they declassified during the Cold War.
    "The achievements of Admiral Gorshkov are truly outstanding. His reforms took place in a country whose entire military history is based on the dominant role of the Ground Forces. Four main achievements can be distinguished. Before Gorshkov, the Soviet Navy rarely operated far from its territorial waters. And in 1985, in 170 Soviet warships are operating in the oceans. Second, the admiral has accelerated the creation of strategic submarine forces. The Soviet Navy operates 62 modern submarine cruisers with intercontinental ballistic missiles, including four Typhoon-class submarines - the largest ever built. , under Gorshkov, technologically advanced general-purpose ships were built. Fourth, he completed the creation of a balanced surface fleet, including the first aircraft-carrying ships. "
    1. +1
      28 July 2021 17: 50
      the opinion of a potential adversary from documents declassified from them during the Cold War
      Please indicate the source. Preferably, the original source in English.

      Admiral Gorshkov's achievements are truly outstanding.

      This is true, both quantitatively and qualitatively, but ...
      The probable instigator, fortunately for us, is much stupider and more cowardly than us. They had a lot of opportunities to physically destroy us, but they were afraid, including because of an inadequate assessment of our real capabilities by analysts. It can be said that a huge but ineffective fleet (or army) has a propaganda potential that can prevent war, because the enemy will be afraid. But this is not the main task of the army and navy. Propaganda in the USSR did not come from the right place. Gorshkov himself hardly believed that his fleet was primarily of propaganda value, and then combat. Therefore, the enemy did not dare to attack, but if he were bolder, like Hitler, the miscalculations of the doctrine of the use of the fleet would then appear.
      The United States did not dare to attack even North Korea.
  7. +2
    19 July 2021 12: 39
    It is clear that in such a situation, any expansion of its structures could only arouse approval, and the negative impact on the economy, to which such an expansion led, was rejected.

    Actually, this is exactly what it is. Huge military spending and the transformation of the Soviet economy into an appendage to the military-industrial complex ultimately led to the fact that the USSR lost without any military action.
  8. +4
    19 July 2021 14: 26
    Gorshkov was a very controversial person, who is interested, read his biography.
    In many ways, Gorshkov and Brezhnev were similar.
    Gorshkov was not general secretary, but he knew how to maneuver and negotiate, only allowed him to stay in power for so long in the Navy.
    As much as Gorshkov would have had more power, exactly as much as the Soviet Navy would be stronger ...
    Tracking the US AUG was well-founded at the time.
    The transformation of the prevention of a world nuclear missile conflict not only as the main task of the fleet, but also as, in fact, the only task, was fraught with a serious mistake.

    Well, it’s not like that. Especially in the last decade. Quite serious multipurpose aircraft carriers, destroyers and nuclear submarines were planned ...
  9. +3
    19 July 2021 14: 34
    1. Purpose. In the USSR, after 53 years, everything was very bad with goal-setting. In the conditions of the world system of developed racism, there could be only one adequate goal - the physical destruction of the enemy. Because they don't negotiate with mad dogs. They are being shot. And the insane leadership of the USSR, which at best was in captivity of rosy illusions, declared a policy of coexistence of two systems. The result of which was the natural destruction of the USSR, because when one ideology directly postulates the destruction of the enemy, and the other sings songs about the doves of peace, the outcome of the confrontation is natural.

    2. Economy. Economy is a method of managing an economy not with the aim of satisfying people's needs in a quality manner, but with the aim of making profit and maximizing it. Those. the term "economic activity" does not have to be the same as the term "economics". It's just that we are currently living under capitalism, within which "economic activity" is carried out by "economic methods" and we are accustomed to the fact that the economy and the economy are one and the same. In the USSR, the national economy began to be transformed into an economy with the arrival of the team of the right deviator, and simply an apologist of the bourgeois system, Brezhnev. If anyone remembers, then it was called "self-financing".

    As soon as the system of the national economy of the USSR was transformed into an economic system completely typical for Western countries, the country was doomed, because the most important question arose - how to divide the assets that worked for the benefit of the whole society and appropriate them into private ownership. To carry out this process, it was necessary to destroy the state in order to completely rewrite the rules of the game, including the constitution and other very important pieces of paper. Within the framework of the rules of the previous state - the USSR, which, in fact, was created as a mechanism for translating Soviet rules into real life, it was impossible to pull off all this.

    3. Fleet. The fleet is just an instrument, which, like other instruments, is not a full-fledged subject, since it performs tasks that are a consequence of the political program. Since in the USSR after 53 years the political program was inadequate, the fleet became its hostage. I want to emphasize that there is no point in seriously trying to analyze the strategic development of the fleet, since in any case it bears the imprint of the party's policy, which turned out to be wrong. All this, of course, does not in the least exclude individual successful operations, heroic deeds and courageous behavior of professionals in their field in certain situations and other tactical moments.
    1. +1
      19 July 2021 17: 25
      there could be only one adequate goal - the physical destruction of the enemy

      That is, do you think the goal of unleashing a nuclear war, the consequences of which would be extremely grave for both sides, is "adequate"?
      Economy is a method of managing an economy not with the aim of satisfying people's needs in a quality manner, but with the aim of generating profit and maximizing it.

      No, the economy is just a means of meeting the needs for goods and services. The only trouble was that in the Soviet Union, in practice, an economic system was built, which in peacetime was "sharpened" primarily to meet the needs of the military department and the military-industrial complex. Everything else went "on a leftover principle" and was often, moreover, grossly ineffectively organized.
      As soon as the system of the national economy of the USSR was transformed into an economic system completely typical for Western countries

      When was it exactly the economic system of the Soviet Union that was transformed into the capitalist economy of the market type typical for the countries of Western Europe? ;)
      1. -1
        19 July 2021 19: 26
        Quote: Terran Ghost
        That is, you believe that the goal of unleashing a nuclear war is "adequate"


        Ascribing inadequate assumptions to an opponent is a typical tool in the arsenal of sophistry.

        the economy is just a means of meeting the needs for goods and services.


        Economic activity is a means of satisfying the needs of people. At the same time, the purpose for which the economic activity is carried out may be different. If the purpose of doing business is to make a profit, then we are talking about the economy.

        When was it exactly the economic system of the Soviet Union that was transformed into the capitalist economy of the market type typical for the countries of Western Europe?


        Perestroika is the official program for the transfer of the economic system from socialist to capitalist. Even earlier, in the sense even before Perestroika, certain elements inherent in the capitalist system were gradually introduced into the national economy, but without an official adjustment of the course of development of the country, which allegedly continued to build allegedly socialism. For example, the same Lieberman reform, when profits were returned as an imperative.
    2. -2
      19 July 2021 20: 00
      Quote: A_Lex
      And the insane leadership of the USSR, which at best was in captivity of rosy illusions, declared a policy of coexistence of two systems.

      Do you want the Third World War?
      1. 0
        19 July 2021 20: 17
        Quote: Pilat2009
        Do you want the Third World War?


        If the reader has personal fantasies while reading the text and he convinced himself that these fantasies are directly described in the text, this is the problem of the reader and nobody else.
        1. -1
          19 July 2021 20: 22
          Quote: A_Lex
          In the conditions of the world system of developed racism, there could be only one adequate goal - the physical destruction of the enemy

          Didn't you write, didn't you?
          1. -2
            19 July 2021 20: 45
            Quote: Pilat2009
            Didn't you write, didn't you?


            Adequate people first clarify whether the text is present in their imagination.
            If a vivid fantasy or a persistent desire to ascribe delirium to an opponent turned out to be stronger, it will be necessary to explicitly note that in the commented text, the third world is not mentioned, is not proposed or assumed.
    3. 0
      28 July 2021 17: 57
      What a mess.
      In the USSR, the national economy began to be transformed into an economy with the arrival of the team of the right deviator, and simply an apologist of the bourgeois system, Brezhnev. If anyone remembers, then it was called "self-financing".

      Forget labels, write to the point. Right left, bourgeois. It worked well under Stalin. Then for this they could raise, and shoot the enemy. It is not necessary, fight with arguments. please.
      cost accounting

      Cost accounting is a method of management in which payment was made for the result, not for the process. And why is it bad?
      When self-financing came, labor productivity exploded even without Brezhnev's speeches. It became profitable for people to work. I did it faster - I earned it faster. And then all the loafers showed up! These were people who said: and 120 rubles a month is enough for me, but nothing needs to be done.
      1. 0
        28 July 2021 19: 54
        Quote: Anton
        What a mess. Forget labels, write to the point. Right left, bourgeois. It worked well under Stalin. Then for this they could raise, and shoot the enemy. It is not necessary, fight with arguments. please.


        It is impossible to comment on the meaningless set of words.

        Quote: Anton
        in which payment was made for the result, and not for the process.


        Paying for a process without linking it to the result is the prerogative of sinecures for very important people, and not real positions in real production. In self-financing, profit was placed at the forefront instead of satisfying high-quality needs. We know from experience that if a manufacturer can make a profit without satisfying customer needs, he will. A classic example is the substitution of vegetable fats for animal fats in the now surrogate dairy products.

        Quote: Anton
        When self-financing came, labor productivity exploded even without Brezhnev's speeches. It became profitable for people to work.


        Nonsense. This time is called stagnation due to, among other things, a purely statistical decline in economic efficiency indicators.
  10. +1
    19 July 2021 14: 54
    Liberal delirium
  11. 0
    19 July 2021 16: 29
    In fact, given that in the USSR, many problems were solved exclusively by Personalities and positioning in decisive areas - the Central Committee of the CPSU, the Politburo, etc. Gorshkov was in the right place. And the fleet with him was able to attract both funding and a powerful layer of design bureaus and factories to create a lot from and nuclear submarines
    1. -1
      19 July 2021 17: 18
      was able to attract both financing and a powerful layer of KB and factories to create a lot

      And what, I am embarrassed to ask, is good about exorbitant military spending, acting as a stranglehold on the Soviet economy, condemning the country's population to poverty, suppressing the development of non-military (producing goods and services) sectors of industry and the economy?
      1. -1
        19 July 2021 19: 37
        Those who, like, worked in the post office of the military-industrial complex of the USSR know that the engineering schools and engineers at the factories were better than at the factories of the local industry. And the technical problems were solved by several orders of magnitude more complex. The downside is that the very top, from the Politburo, the Council of Ministers and below, could not really dispose of personnel and resources. And if for export military equipment (ships, weapons, aircraft, etc.) were SOLD, and not stupidly handed out for free. Then, with these proceeds from the export of military-tech money, it was possible to purchase not only ready-made consumer goods, but also production lines, a machine-tool park for the "group B" sector.
        1. 0
          28 July 2021 18: 03
          engineering schools, engineering and technical personnel in factories were better than in factories of local industry
          Yes, but within the framework of the system, they were far from ideal. It took tremendous effort and effort to do what could be done easier.
          this money earned from the export of military tech could be used to purchase not only ready-made consumer goods, but also production lines, a machine-tool park for the "group B" sector.

          It was possible, but it is wrong. That's right - to release the simple one yourself, too, if you can release the more complex one.
    2. 0
      28 July 2021 18: 00
      many problems were solved exclusively by Individuals

      This is always and everywhere. And now. Only by them are they solved, otherwise they are not solved.
      But the author wrote an article not about whether Gorshkov was a person, but about what concept of using the fleet he built, and how it would work in the war.
  12. -2
    19 July 2021 20: 11
    hey author why is the railway still operating
    1. +3
      19 July 2021 21: 05
      I will touch on this issue in the next, final part of this cycle.
  13. +4
    20 July 2021 09: 23
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Yes, these are not greenhouse conditions for you, you have no experience. laughing

    This is not to say that not at all. But I really don't want to replenish it. I don't like bullshitting, I prefer following the ethics of scientific discussions.
  14. -1
    20 July 2021 22: 46
    the very proposal to look at the figure of Khrushchev is unbiased



    And how do you think the bias was expressed? The fact is that, upon closer examination, all his undertakings, even those that are popularly considered positive, turn out to be completely different. The collapse of agriculture, the liquidation of prom. cooperatives, for the first time since the civilian shooting of soldiers at the people, the end of the fight against Ukronazism, the transformation of the RSFSR into a cash cow of the republics and half of the world, should he announce the construction of socialism on his palm?

    And where does Gorshkov, who is just an admiral?

    And that the fleet exists only to come once a year to the shores of America and fight in the Indian Ocean, where any possible interests were worth less than this fleet, is a little absurd, so this is understandable.
  15. 0
    22 July 2021 16: 37
    As the English say:

    "In the event of war, our fleet will not wait for the enemy on its shores, but will meet him at the strangers."

    Fairy tales, ships are uber-expensive. And the experience of world wars, when the fleet was not very intensively used, shows that this statement is nothing more than bragging.
  16. 0
    28 July 2021 17: 23
    the treatment of which turned out to be almost impossible due to the lack of a correct diagnosis

    Exactly! Only a few want to make the correct diagnosis, not only in these, but in all areas. There is so much work behind it.
    There are 4 people in my team, almost friends. And we already have this problem! The truth cannot be told, it will be insulting, we will quarrel. It is impossible to do the job properly, because it is a consequence of the "correct diagnosis" that one wants to hear.
    What can we say about the country.
    But you still need to break through, convey thoughts, convince with logic. Mostly the fear of dismissal interferes, but what to do with the country's defense capability?

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

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