PLA Navy ships ousted an American destroyer from China's territorial waters off the Paracel Islands

Ships of the PLA naval forces drove the American destroyer USS Benfold (DDG-65) from the territorial waters of China off the Paracel Islands. This was reported by the press service of the PRC Ministry of Defense.

The Chinese Defense Ministry has expressed strong US opposition to the "illegal invasion" of a US Navy ship into China's territorial waters. According to the official representative of the PLA Southern Combat Command Tian Junli, the American destroyer invaded the Chinese territorial waters of the Xisha archipelago (Paracel Islands) without permission. The American ship was given a warning, after which it was ousted by "forces and means" of the PLA Air Force and Navy.

Beijing stressed that the skeletons of the Xisha archipelago are "primordially Chinese territory." The invasion of the US destroyer has been described as a "gross violation" of China's sovereignty and security. The Chinese Ministry of Defense demanded that the United States stop the provocations being arranged.

Recall that the United States does not recognize China's sovereignty over the territory of the Paracel Islands, which is a disputed territory because of the claims to them by a number of other countries in the region. In addition, Washington accuses China of obstructing "free shipping", stating that American ships will sail in all waters recognized as international.

Comments

[Cowbra]

This will also give the Ukrainians a medal. For protection

[boris epstein]

The entire crew would have a medal. With a twist on the back.

[Peak]

Quote: Boris Epstein

The entire crew would have a medal. With a twist on the back.

On a humped back

After all, he works so hard, to carry democracy, universal human principles (and so far from home), and it is impossible not to have a labor hump. .

Therefore - medals with a twist on a humped back.

[Sevastiec]

Order of Sutulov, yeah.

[wow]

And three times hunchback ....!

[knn54]

The islands are also claimed by Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, Cambodia, Singapore, Taiwan, Indonesia and Thailand.
This is how many medals a captain can get.

[Nyrobsky]

Quote: knn54

The islands are also claimed by Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei, Cambodia, Singapore, Taiwan, Indonesia and Thailand.
This is how many medals a captain can get.

Many can claim that, but in reality only the Chinese have driven the mattresses, and therefore they keep a bump there

[Mountain shooter]

Well, well ... But they didn't shoot. Well, what are our years ... It's not evening yet. Shooting, apparently, was not required. So they were driven out.

[Old Horseradish]

And what is the joy? There are videos on the Internet how the Chinese people freely ride an all-terrain vehicle through our taiga in Siberia and calmly cut down the forest. Where are the border guards? Where are the police? And there is no one. That's what you need to write about. If it's not too late.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Old Fuck

Chinese people freely ride an all-terrain vehicle through our taiga in Siberia

Yes I saw. A big question for the border guards.

[Raven 95]

Quote: Old Fuck

Chinese people freely ride an all-terrain vehicle in our taiga

Of course, you have to fight a crook. But the Chinese rogue on an all-terrain vehicle does not question the territorial affiliation of the taiga, unlike the American rogue on a destroyer.

[Puskarinkis]

So the inhabitants of Transbaikalia are being forced out of their homes by the Chinese! For now, under the pretext of lease, and then they will more boldly begin to declare that this is their land!

[Old Horseradish]

You take an all-terrain vehicle and drive around China to saw the forest. In general, like the Chinese people with us. Turn on the stopwatch and note the time how long you will live there until the Chinese dig in you. Because there is power, police and army. But in Siberia, things are no longer the same. Which is confirmed by these videos.

[Region-25.rus]

Do you really think that this is being done without the knowledge of the authorities? At least the locals.

[Looking for]

That's just the point. That the territorial affiliation of the taiga is being questioned. Otherwise, they would not go.

[Every]

Quote: Raven-95

Quote: Old Fuck

Chinese people freely ride an all-terrain vehicle in our taiga

Of course, you have to fight a crook. But the Chinese rogue on an all-terrain vehicle does not question the territorial affiliation of the taiga, unlike the American rogue on a destroyer.

The fact of the matter is that they put it. In China, there is a whole propaganda campaign, which claims that Baikal, Altai and adjacent territories are originally Chinese and are temporarily occupied.
And we give them land on a long-term lease. Then we will return with a lot of blood.

[Gree Tru]

Of course, you have to fight a crook. But the Chinese rogue on an all-terrain vehicle does not question the territorial affiliation of the taiga, unlike the American rogue on a destroyer. You're right Raven.

[Nemchinov Vl]

Quote: Raven-95

Of course, you have to fight a crook. But the Chinese rogue on an all-terrain vehicle does not question the territorial affiliation of the taiga, unlike the American rogue on a destroyer.

that is, cutting a forest on our territory is not an invasion ...? !! And the water collected in the pockets (nets) by the sailors of the destroyer, near the islands in the South China Sea - will it be more dangerous ?!

[lucul]

And what is the joy? There are videos on the Internet about how the Chinese people freely ride an all-terrain vehicle through our taiga in Siberia and calmly cut down the forest. Where

So what ? Arabs, too, are quietly walking through the territory of Israel. So what ?

[Looking for]

you are an INSANE person if you think so.

[Roman070280]

Chinese people are free to ride an all-terrain vehicle through our taiga in Siberia and calmly cut down the forest

Beijing stressed that the skeletons of the Xisha archipelago are "primordially Chinese territory"

I was also confused by the concept of "primordially" ..
How long must it take before a territory becomes someone's original?
Or maybe they are already driving in their Siberia ??)

[Hypertension]

Russia sent two Be-200s to Turkey to extinguish fires, while forests are burning in Yakutia and the Far East. And Yakutia promised to help Leonardo DiCaprio. What's this going on? Which territory is more important for our state? !!

[Santa Fe]

For the head of state, his international prestige matters

Extinguishing fires in the forests of Siberia - no one will notice how they extinguished. No one will appreciate his merits

And sending fire planes to Turkey - such a step will be noticed all over the world

[Hypertension]

Quote: Santa Fe

And sending fire planes to Turkey - such a step will be noticed all over the world

Uh-huh. Especially in Turkey. And in gratitude they will do some other mean thing. Tell the residents of Chelyabinsk, choking with smog, about "a step that will be noticed all over the world."

Quote: Santa Fe

For the head of state, his international prestige matters

Putin has no international prestige. There was prestige, but all went out. "All my girlfriends are leeches and frogs"(c) The other day, the Europeans again voted for the sanctions. First of all, you need to take care of your people. That's why they elected them. And the GDP forgives all debts and helps other countries, even if they don't ask for it.

Quote: Santa Fe

Extinguishing fires in the forests of Siberia - no one will notice how they extinguished.

And that's why you don't need to extinguish? Well, this is awesome logic ... Have you received a call from EdRa about work? You think very well for them ...

[Gree Tru]

Fires are everywhere, and everywhere they are extinguished using all available forces and means.

[Hypertension]

Quote: Gri Tru

Fires are everywhere, and everywhere they are extinguished using all available forces and means.

And why take off 3 good planes from extinguishing to help a foreign country, when the level of fire in this very country is much lower than in your own? Is it okay if your house is on fire and you run to a neighbor to put out a burning piece of paper?

[out of habit]

When we eat the Yakut tomatoes, then we will start putting out the fires.

[Charik]

the bunker under the Kremlin is more important to them

[Atlant-1164]

so is it ?? they are partners))

[svp67]

This business will not end well ... And in general it is very annoying that many wars began after conflicts with ships at sea

[Gree Tru]

Do you mean the Gulf of Tonkin? We are not, as it were, Vietnam, this number will not work for the amers with us.

[Ros 56]

And what did it look like in practice, is this the very expulsion?

[vargo]

It always looks different from what we prefer to imagine. So many times I heard completely different descriptions of the situation from the lips of the participants than it was somehow presented in the press. Reality is neither worse nor better, just much more realistic than virtual battles that we often think about. More down-to-earth and practical)

[Maximilian37]

from the point of view of banal erudition ............

[out of habit]

A burst into the sky from a cannon and two invisible bombs.

[askort154]

Beijing stressed that the skeletons of the Xisha archipelago are "primordially Chinese territory."

It looks like Psaki also infected the Pentagon. There, in the name of the Sisha archipelago, they do not see the letter I point-blank - they read it as the United States archipelago

[pytar]

PLA Navy ships ousted the American destroyer from territorial waters of China off the Paracel Islands

These islands are controversial! Vietnam also counts them as his own! China took over the Paracel Islands (in Chinese Xisha, in Vietnamese Hoangsha) in 1974.
Cognitive article about how it happened:
https://warspot.ru/6553-porohovaya-bochka-yugo-vostochnoy-azii

[tralflot1832]

And this is the situation under feudalism, do you know the right of the first night? So shut up, the Chinese showed that Burke alone is not a warrior in the field !!! What the feudal lord tells you is what you will do. And our market for your canned vegetables may be open. from Hungary.

[pytar]

such a situation under feudalism, do you know the right of the first night? So shut up, the Chinese showed that Burke alone is not a warrior in the field !!! What the feudal lord will tell you is what you will do. And our market for your canned vegetables may be open. Hungary.

And this comment to the topic ?!

[Kama74]

Please comment more often, Pytar ..
You are one of the few interesting and sober-minded people on this forum ..

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Kama74

Please comment more often, Pytar ..
..

In any case, not a Russophobe. Boyan has his own opinion and does not offend anyone.

[pytar]

Please comment more often, Pytar .. You are one of the few interesting and sober-minded people on this forum ..

Thank you Kama74. Adequacy clearly annoys many here, unfortunately. With all that, I see that there are sober people.

[Kama74]

Yes, some kind of horror is going on ..
I read the comments and wonder what happened to the Russian people ..

[Humpty]

Quote: pytar

Cognitive article about how it happened:

You can also pick up materials about who drew maps of Tibet, who Xinjiang, (there will be coincidences in the surnames). Everything will look like an article on your link.
For many centuries, the Chinese believed that the Yellow River flows from Lake Lop Nor, which, in their opinion, was located significantly to the north.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

These islands are controversial! Vietnam also counts them as his own! China captured

Yes, we know, we know. So what? If the islands remained Vietnamese, would the United States not run around there? Be sure you would run. Referring to the fact that the islands are Chinese or Filipino, or someone else.
I believe that the islands belong to someone who can defend them by force. And who, besides China, will be able to do this? And all the babbling about the controversial is from the evil one.

[Kurare]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

If the islands remained Vietnamese, would the United States not run around there? Be sure you would run. Referring to the fact that the islands are Chinese or Filipino, or someone else.
...
And all the babbling about the controversial is from the evil one.

Bravo! There is always a reason for the United States to insert its three kopecks! And if there is no reason, you need to come up with it.

[pytar]

So what? If the islands remained Vietnamese, would the United States not run around there? Be sure you would run.

Are you glad that one predator / China /, which is near you, becomes stronger over time, and another predator / USA / weakens? Vietnam was always friendly to you, even when you left him! Have you ever thought that the expansion of China will drag other potentially friendly countries, such as the Asian giant India in the arms of the United States? What is the benefit to you?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

You are glad that one predator / China /, which is near to you,

Boyan, surprised at your understanding of my post. What does joy have to do with it? My post is an emotionless statement of an indisputable fact. Yes, I am concerned about the strengthening of China, but we cannot follow the path of the United States and pursue a policy of containing the development of the Chinese economy. Let the USA do it. If you noticed, then Russia takes a position of neutrality regarding the ownership of the aforementioned islands. And he does the right thing.

[pytar]

I apologize, maybe I misunderstood you. I also consider the position of neutrality, the most reasonable in the case. If we look at the changes in the balance of power over the past 40 years, there is something to worry about. In the 80s, there was militarily and economically weak China, strong USA and USSR. Over the past decades, China has grown steadily, while the United States and especially Russia have weakened. Nowadays, China is quite on a par with the United States and prevails at times over the Russian Federation. This is a long-term, long-term trend! Sooner or later, mundane interests will force the United States and the Russian Federation to cooperate in curbing the growing appetites of the Red Dragon.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

Over the past decades, China has grown steadily, while the United States and especially Russia have weakened. Nowadays, China is

I think that in modern wars, and there will be no war between nuclear powers without the use of nuclear weapons, if there is a war, it will be transient with the death of the conflicting parties. Therefore, economic power during a war is irrelevant. For Russia, in order to maintain its sovereignty, it is not necessary to unite with the United States against China, or with China against the United States. It is enough for it to keep its strategic troops in proper condition. Those. nuclear missile triad.
The economic power of China is due to the huge number of workers.

[pytar]

I agree with you. There will be no war between nuclear forces. China's longstanding tactics "A wise monkey sits on a mountain and watches two tigers fight in the valley.", allowed him to develop into relative calm. China is no longer a monkey, it has itself become a tiger with sharp teeth! It will be useful for Russia not to get involved in other people's fights. RYAT so far guarantees her immunity. The situation is likely to change in the future, as sooner or later the development of technology will lead to a change in balances. And Russia, if it wants to remain, must keep up! We need to develop the economy, science, technology!
Note: The power of China is conditioned by many factors.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

We need to develop the economy, science, technology!

Who would argue, just not me. But, having the ability to inflict irreparable damage on the enemy, if not complete destruction, gives Russia confidence in relative security. Yes, there is no need to rest on our laurels, and the development of new types of strategic weapons by Russia suggests that Russia does not even think to rest on them. And under the protection of these weapons it can develop quietly.
After all, what is most interesting is that the entire Western world accuses Russia of being aggressive, but no one can give an example of this aggressiveness. Then what is the reason for these accusations? Can you explain this to me? After all, Bulgaria today is the Western world.

[pytar]

But, having the ability to inflict irreparable damage on the enemy, if not complete destruction, gives Russia confidence in relative security.

And there is. In addition, for the West, the level of irreparable damage, for a number of reasons, is much lower than that of the Russian Federation.

After all, Bulgaria today is the Western world.

I would not argue that this is exactly the case. Bulgaria, like other countries, has its own national specifics. Culturally and mentally, it is a typical southern European country with its own Balkan flavor. I would define the difference between the conventional "Western" and "Russian" worlds at the level of the rule of law, freedom of speech, market initiative, social stratification, as well as the turnover of power in a democratic way.

After all, what is most interesting is that the entire Western world accuses Russia of being aggressive, but no one can give an example of this aggressiveness. Then what is the reason for these accusations? Can you explain this to me?

I can't speak for everyone. I can only say my own personal opinion, while I have certain predilections for Russia. In my opinion, everything is covered in the same difference described above. Since the "Western model" is more attractive in terms of a number of fundamental indicators, many countries who were earlier in the Soviet sphere of influence are striving for that very "Western world." Russia is trying to discourage these tendencies by using different techniques. The problem for Russia is that it does not have an alternative competitive model. What is now in the Russian Federation is a poorly assembled "something", and it creaks from all sides. Unfortunately.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

Since the "Western model" is more attractive in terms of a number of fundamental indicators, many countries who were earlier in the Soviet sphere of influence are striving for the very same

1. This is not an answer to the question of Russia's "aggressiveness".
2. What are the "set of fundamental indicators" and why are they attractive?

Quote: pytar

The problem for Russia is that it does not have an alternative competitive model.

Why does Russia need it? Why should we compete in the "model" field? And is this a problem for Russia?
This is rather your problem. Do you want to choose us, but we "do not have an alternative competitive model" and therefore you DO NOT WANT to choose the western model. So?
We do not care, choose the Western model, but at the same time you are climbing into NATO, and this is no longer a choice of a model, but the strengthening of an organization aimed against us. But this is a completely different alignment.
I would be grateful for the answer.

[pytar]

1. This is not an answer to the question of Russia's "aggressiveness".

I answered: Russia is trying to hinder these tendencies, using different methods.
Specific examples are Transnistria, Abkhazia, North. Ossetia, Karabakh, Donbas, Crimea. The technology is simple - a "burden" is created on the country's feet, a dilemma for an indefinite time, in the form of a problem area or in other ways + structures of internal influence are being introduced in the EU. This is a complex strategy that many define as hybrid aggression.

Why does Russia need it? Why should we compete in the "model" field? And is this a problem for Russia?

1.Because a "model" is not only some kind of abstract ideology, it is a device, economics, culture, law and practice of application, science, technology, and much more.
2. Because we live in a competitive world. Either you compete, or you close yourself, like North Korea, but you won't even close at all if you want to develop. Evolution is impossible without competition.

This is rather your problem.

It is good when different competitive alternatives arise, then the competition is livelier. In that sense, trying to implement a non-competitive system is a problem.

Do you want to choose us, but we "do not have an alternative competitive model" and therefore you DO NOT WANT to choose the western model.

Why are modern Russian realities better than Western ones, with all their / Western / defects? By the way, there is also not everything unambiguous, there are many options.

... but at the same time you are climbing into NATO, and this is no longer a choice of a model, but the strengthening of an organization aimed against us.

Who prevents those who want to go to the CSTO? Each country has the right to become a member of some kind of organization, union! And here we return to the question about the "model", v. 1, and why they "climb" into the EU and NATO, and not into the CU and the CSTO! By the way, the largest expansion of NATO took place at a time when relations with the Russian Federation were quite friendly. Moreover, for different countries the motives were different and by no means all of them were necessarily associated with Russia.

I would be grateful for the answer.

I tried, although I do not pretend to be either exhaustive or "first instance". My personal subjective opinion.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

Specific examples are Transnistria, Abkhazia, North. Ossetia, Karabakh, Donbas, Crimea. The technology is simple - a "burden" is created on the legs of the country, a dilemma for an indefinite time, in the form of a problem area or

Boyan, do you know what your mistake is? You consider, for example, Transnistria as a one-time fact - the rejection of part of the territory of Moldova. But it's not right! This fact should be considered in a HISTORICAL retrospective. How the state of Moldova was created, what kind of people lived in its separate parts and, most importantly, what does the people living in this or that territory want or not want, regardless of their nationality. You, while standing up for universal human values, freedom of choice, etc., etc., at the same time deny the people living in Transnistria, Crimea, Ossetia, etc., the right to choose. What does it mean? Those. it is possible where it is profitable for you and it is impossible where it is not profitable for you. So, what?
Let's take Crimea. For some reason, you did not notice the violation of the rights of Crimean residents by the Ukrainian authorities - as you know, 72% of Crimean residents are Russians, but they were deprived of the right to educate their children in a Russian-language school. All schools were transferred to the Ukrainian language of instruction. If you were Russian and lived in Crimea, would you like it? And when the Russians began to protest against this, they were told that they did not like it (?). go to Russia. The same thing happened in Donbass.
I am sure that you would very much like your opinion to be taken into account. So why do you deny other people the same desire?
Look how interesting it turns out - the Ukrainian authorities create problems for the residents of Crimea and Donbass, in response to this, these residents take certain actions, and you make Russia to blame for this. And if the Ukrainian authorities, respecting their citizens, did not close Russian schools, introduced bilingualism in Ukraine, do you think Crimea and Donbass would revolt?
You do not want to know about the age-old enmity between Abkhazians and Georgians, it is important for you to accuse Russia of a hybrid war.
You know that = When Georgia declared its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, it perceived Abkhazia as an inseparable part of its territory. Abkhazians had deep fears that their language, culture and national identity were in jeopardy. Their demands for greater political authority and autonomy grew with the gradual collapse of the Soviet Union. Nationalism flourished, tensions escalated, and a 1992-month war broke out in 13.

By the time the ceasefire was signed, at least 12 people had died, nearly a quarter of a million ethnic Georgians were forced to flee their homes, and Abkhazia had escaped Georgian control. It declared its independence in 000, although it still remained unrecognized by the rest of the world. Georgia argued that its territorial integrity had been violated and that Abkhazia, despite its de facto independence, was an integral part of the Georgian state. Exchange and contact between the parties to the conflict were minimal, and a definite armed presence continued along the dividing line. =

= 1918
February 9 - The Abkhazian People's Council and the National Council of Georgia signed an Agreement that basically defines their relationship as a union of two state entities.

Some clauses of the Agreement

“1) To recreate a single indivisible Abkhazia within the limits from the Ingur River to the Mzymta River, which will include Abkhazia and Samurzakan proper or, what is the same, the current Sukhumi District.

2) The form of the future political structure of a unified Abkhazia should be worked out (in accordance with) the principles of national self-determination at the Constituent Assembly of Abkhazia, convened on a democratic basis.

3) If Abkhazia and Georgia wish to enter into political contractual relations with other national states, they mutually undertake to have preliminary negotiations with each other. " =
Did you know about this? But in May 1919 Georgia occupied Abkhazia, though not for long. And there were bloody battles between Georgians and Abkhazians. Then, in 19, was Russia also to blame?
Before you judge, you need to know the history. History of countries, peoples.

[pytar]

Boyan, do you know what your mistake is? You consider, for example, Transnistria as a one-time fact - the rejection of part of the territory of Moldova.

Dear, I am perfectly familiar with all the details of the conflicts you described. Without a doubt, they have deep historical roots. The USSR temporarily obscured them. I do not in any way assert the correctness of one or the other side. Everyone has their own motives and, paradoxically, everyone is more or less right! It is necessary to listen to both sides, then the situation looms ambiguous! What's more important? Territorial integrity, inviolability of borders, or the right of self-determination of the people or some kind of national / religious, etc. / minority ?? Who is defending the country, and who is the separatist? Here everyone interprets as in his interests! Russia is not an exception! How is it from Chechnya? But how if in 20-30 years, China announces a "referendum" on the Far East, or something like that ?! You understand, nothing in the world is static! Incredible yesterday, tomorrow becomes real! I am not taking sides! You asked why you are considered aggressors! Because, somewhere you support the separatists, they are supposedly from the good, and somewhere you help the rulers to infringe on the rights of people! "Ours and yours"! How does your policy differ from that of the West? Nothing! Double or even triple standards! There are very few mono-national states in the world! Therefore, equality before the laws is important! You in the Russian Federation are all equal before the law ??? Ha, yes it is, and in the USSR, not everyone was equal! In most Western countries, this is much better. It's about the model and how well it works.
Russia, copying the worst of the West, does not gain any advantage. According to my idealistic convictions, Russia will really get off its feet only when it puts HONESTY, JUSTICE and EQUALITY in the first place in its domestic and foreign policy, and not interests! It is these principles in real performance that the world sorely lacks! This is your chance! You will not be able to bypass the developed countries in anything else! Moral capital is 1000 times more expensive than capital from the predatory exploitation of natural wealth! A new kind of politician, mission, or model, whatever you want to call it! It is clear, first you need to build a just society at home! It's a long way, and it looks utopian, right? But sooner or later, who will be the first to cross them! Who if not Russia?

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

Dear, I am perfectly familiar with all the details of the conflicts you described.

Then why do you accuse Russia of all these sins?
After 2008, Georgians and Ossetians stopped killing each other. Is it bad for the West? Or did the Abkhaz feel bad? Or maybe the Georgians, due to the fact that Abkhazia left them, began to live worse?
Maybe that's why they started to live worse? Who got worse from this? ANYONE !!! But Russia is to blame! Because she is the aggressor.

Quote: pytar

You in the Russian Federation are all equal before the law ???

Name a country in which an ordinary citizen and a high-ranking official, a big businessman, a politician are equal before the law? There is no such country! But only Russia is accused of such "inequality". If somewhere, at one time and someone is brought before the court one or another of the listed, then this is an exception, which confirms the rule. Madame Clinton, according to American law, committed many offenses, but something I have not heard that she was brought to justice.
You look at the speck in the eyes of Russia and do not notice the logs point-blank in the eyes of the collective West. Alas for you! I am not idealizing Russia, but the West is far from without sin. And if you come to justice, then Russia is a lamb in comparison with the West. But the Western media present Russia to their inhabitant in the form of a wolf. And these views affect you as well. You, too, were captured by these performances.
Are you wondering -

Quote: pytar

What's more important? Territorial integrity, inviolability of borders, or the right of self-determination of the people or some kind of national / religious, etc. / minority ?? Who is defending the country, and who is the separatist? Here everyone interprets as in his interests! Russia

I will clarify your question - What is more important for the PEOPLE, (even for a part of it), territorial integrity, inviolability of borders or the right to self-determination?
Let us ask ourselves a question - what happened before, the people or some rules? The desires of the people are one thing, but certain rules written by a handful of "lawyers" are another. If the aspirations of the oppressed people conflict with the rules written by a small group of people, then I think. that preference should be given to the people, and not to the rules written by not quite smart and decent people.
I have already given you an example with the Crimea. If the authorities had not infringed upon the rights of Russians in Crimea, no one would have thought about secession from Ukraine. What would be the point of that? But as soon as these rights were violated, then there was a hope, quite justified, that these rights would not be violated in Russia. Therefore, Crimea made its choice. You pay attention to the CONSEQUENCE, and do not think at all about the REASONS. But even in ancient times, people understood about the inviolability of cause-and-effect relationships. In the name of a peaceful life for people, boundaries can and should be changed. Borders are from the evil one. The main thing is people and their desire to live the way they want. Speaking of Chechnya, can you remind me where the referendum on secession from the Russian Federation was held in Chechnya?
Dudayev, having seized power in Chechnya, could have held such a referendum, there has not been a war yet, but instead he staged the genocide of Russians in Chechnya. You, i.e. The West did not notice this.
If this is not beneficial to the West, then it will not even notice a herd of elephants in its garden.
Today in Ukraine the rights of millions of Russians living in Ukraine have been violated. Does the Western media talk about this anywhere? Not!!! But it is said that the rights of fifty gays have been violated in Moscow. Here they are your rights and justice.

[pytar]

Then why do you accuse Russia of all these sins?

I don't blame anyone, but let's be honest - Russia acted this way, not because of humanism or something like that, but because of its own interests! This gave her the opportunity to make herself dependent on the indicated country. After all, on the other side of the Russian Federation, it destroyed its Chechen separatists, and helped others. In short, you can not idealize!

Name a country in which an ordinary citizen and a high-ranking official, a big businessman, a politician are equal before the law? There is no such country!

I don’t know what countries you have been to, I have been to many countries and even lived for some time in several. I have been visiting Russia regularly for many years, half of my relatives are Russians.
In Western countries there is a nuance depending on where what. In most of them, officials, a businessman are no different from an ordinary citizen. They are not gods like bureaucrats and oligarchs in the current Russian Federation. I can give a few examples from personal experience - Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Spain, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Eire, probably there are others. There bureaucrats, if anything, fly out in an instant from their posts! And the rich, or more modestly brought up, so they themselves observe the laws, and this is a fact.

You look at the speck in the eyes of Russia and do not notice the logs point-blank in the eyes of the collective West. ... I do not idealize Russia, but the West is far from without sin. And if you come to justice, then Russia is a lamb in comparison with the West. But the Western media present Russia to their inhabitant in the form of a wolf. And these views affect you as well. You, too, were captured by these performances.

You obviously don't read / watch Western media. Judge by what Russian people bring you. I observe both, I can usually compare. People in the West rarely write anything about Russia. Somewhere there was a miscalculation, there only 4% of the novelties are directly or indirectly related to Russia. And in Russian ... you can see for yourself. There they only do that, oh, "the west is like this," "the west is different," blah-blah-blah ... Moreover, it is very selective! Many of the reprints all quote phantom Ross. sources, served as "western". Of course, no obsessiveness can be discussed. I personally analyzed a huge amount of publications in rus-media about my country and, frankly, fell into shock! Everything is so distorted and distant from reality! I speak with bewilderment, I am a Russophile-minded person!
Tell me, doesn’t you get the impression that what happened inside the Russian Federation is often kept silent or distorted in Russia? I can see it! And I ask the question, if they lie about the internal situation, why did you decide that they are telling the truth about the external?

Let us ask ourselves a question - what happened before, the people or some rules? The desires of the people are one thing, but certain rules written by a handful of "lawyers" are another. If the aspirations of the oppressed people conflict with the rules written by a small group of people, then I think. that preference should be given to the people, and not to the rules written by not quite smart and decent people.

I will say this - breaking the laws of one side does not give the right to others to break the same laws. Not and have not yet exhausted all the possibilities to legally achieve their requirements. Your authorities drive the dissatisfied, imprison them! The bad government is fighting the discontent, not the reasons for the discontent! It is so with you! That is why it looks like something falsified, your "struggle" for the rights of foreign citizens in other countries.

Today in Ukraine the rights of millions of Russians living in Ukraine have been violated. Does the Western media talk about this anywhere? Not!!! But it is said that the rights of fifty gays have been violated in Moscow.

2001 census approx. 17% self-identified as Russians. This is not so much, there are countries where the number of national minorities is much greater. And only a small part of these Russians felt that their rights were being infringed. In real life, most of the participants in the ATO were Ukrainian Russians. I watch Ukrainian media, but most of them are in Russian! Their president himself speaks more Russian than Ukrainian! By the way, you are wrong that the Western media do not write about the problems with the observance of the rights of citizens in Ukraine. You can make a check, write in English in a search engine and get a millionth of a topic on the topic. They also write about gays in Moscow, only these publications are quoted from you, so you get the wrong impression.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

make yourself dependent on the specified country. After all, on the other side of the Russian Federation, it destroyed its Chechen separatists, and helped others. In short, you can not idealize!

Date March 16, 2014
Location Crimea
Sevastopol city of Sevastopol
Voting system Simple majority of votes
The results

For entering the Russian Federation
 
96,57%
For the restoration of the 1992 Constitution
 
2,66%
Invalid votes
 
0,77%
Turnout 84,17%
According to you, 96,57% of Crimeans who came to the referendum and voted for joining the Russian Federation are SEPERATISTS?
Are you out of your mind?
If Dudayev had not arranged for the genocide of Russians in Chechnya, but had held a referendum and received at least 55% results for secession from the Russian Federation, I believe no one would have opposed this. And Chechnya would have seceded from the Russian Federation. But Dudayev did not hold a referendum, realizing that he would not receive the approval of the people. But in order to achieve his goal, he decided to tie the Chechens in blood and began the genocide of the Russians. But the people of Chechnya followed Kadyrov.

Quote: pytar

I don't blame anyone, but let's be honest - Russia acted this way, not because of humanism or something like that, but because of its own interests!

Maybe. But at the same time, the desires of the PEOPLE were fulfilled.
The USA and its comrades, destroying Yugoslavia, fulfilled the wishes of the PEOPLE? And in Iraq? Are the people also very happy? Are they in Syria in the interests of the Syrians too?

Quote: pytar

Your authorities drive the dissatisfied, imprison them! Bad authorities fight the disaffected, not

Well, tell me how in the United States not so long ago they dealt with the dissatisfied. Or did they not understand, but eliminated the causes of discontent? And in France? I can list for a long time, it just makes no sense to do it. All the same, you will only see Russia point-blank. I do not in any way deny the negativity that exists in Russia. But!!! Everything is relative.

Quote: pytar

2001 census approx. 17% self-identified as Russians.

What!!! Do you believe in these numbers?
= In Soviet times, there was an increase in the absolute and relative number of the Russian population in Ukraine. 1989 - 11 355 582 people or 22,07%.
Included in: Russians
Population: 8 people. (334)
Russians are the SECOND (!!!) in number in Ukraine.

Quote: pytar

And only a small part of these Russians felt that their rights were being infringed.

Did you come up with this stupidity yourself or did someone tell you?

[pytar]

Date March 16, 2014. Place of Crimea. For entry into the Russian Federation-96,57%, For the restoration of the Constitution of 1992-2,66%, Invalid votes-0,77%, Turnout 84,17%
------------------------------------------
There are questions to the numbers themselves! With the population of Crimea at 2 thousand. / 033 /, Russians + Tatars + 2001% of other nationalities - 5 thousand. Ukrainians - 1 thousand. Voted FOR 545 488%! It turns out that not less than 1 thousand have voted FOR yet. Ukrainians, which is quite incredible.
In addition, there are questions about the legal status of the referendum and its very essence. Few people in the world will recognize the objectionable, the result of the voting carried out under the monopoly control of foreign troops. With all other objections, I would recognize this result if it was carried out under the supervision of international observers, according to the laws of Ukraine, whose subject was the Republic of Kazakhstan ..

According to you, 96,57% of Crimeans who came to the referendum and voted for joining the Russian Federation are SEPERATISTS?
------------------------------------------
From the point of view of the rest tens of millions of citizens of Ukraine, the UN General Assembly, and practically all countries of the world, including your allies in the CSTO, it is. [/ quote]

If Dudayev had not arranged for the genocide of Russians in Chechnya, but had held a referendum and received at least 55% results for secession from the Russian Federation, I believe no one would have opposed this. And Chechnya would have seceded from the Russian Federation.
------------------------------------------
According to the laws of the Russian Federation, is it foreseen for the withdrawal of subjekts from the Federation?

But the people of Chechnya followed Kadyrov.
------------------------------------------
The one who also killed the Russians. Before Kadirov, there was a choice - to go to an agreement and start getting big money, in fact, be bought, or be destroyed. I chose the first wisely. Now the departure of the Russian population continues, Chechnya is one of the smashed mono-national republics ...

The USA and its comrades, destroying Yugoslavia, fulfilled the wishes of the PEOPLE? And in Iraq? Are the people also very happy? Are they in Syria in the interests of the Syrians too?
------------------------------------------
The USA is bad, are you kinder? Why don't you recognize Kosovo, but why do you recognize Crimea? Are these different things? Why doesn't Serbia recognize either Kosovo or Crimea? Are these similar things?
You are about Saddam, who gassed hundreds of thousands of Kurds, then attacked Iran, the war claimed a million lives, and the occupation of Kuwait became the cherry on top. True, after the overthrow of Saddam in Iraq, it did not get better, but the dictator got what he deserved on the hanger.
You appeal for taking into account the interests of the majority, right? Like 99% of Crimeans ... for ...
So, how do you like the fact that Assad, being a classic dictator and representing only 10% of the population / Alevis /, is the second generation to rule there? Would have left as normal, probably there would not have been a war.

Well, tell me how in the United States not so long ago they dealt with the dissatisfied. Or did they not understand, but eliminated the causes of discontent? And in France? Everything is learned by comparison.
------------------------------------------
You are comparing it somehow strange ... In Western countries, demonstrations, protests take place all the time! The right is guaranteed by laws and it is respected! About my country I can definitely confirm! I have taken part in various protests more than once! The police guard the protesters, if there are acts of vandalism, they take measure, but no one forbids to hold a meeting! I will not say how all this happens in your country and what tricks the authorities use to prevent people from expressing their opinions! I remember a case from St. Petersburg if I am not mistaken! They detained a man on charges that he was shouting some slogans, but the man turned out to be deaf and dumb! And why were they so scared of the shaman, they stormed him at night! There are hundreds of examples, and they are not in your favor.
In short, your words and deeds differ greatly. And this happens in the West, but there people are free to speak out and demand responsibility! You do not have a civil society, you do not have a middle class, but in the West there is.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

Thousand. Voted FOR 1 649%! It turns out that not less than 100 thousand have voted FOR yet. Ukrainians, which is quite incredible.

Why incredible? How many millions of Ukrainians live beautifully in Russia? How many hundreds of thousands have come from Ukraine today to work?
I have a Ukrainian friend who lives in Sevastopol. His sister lives in the village. Corner, on the seashore, I had a rest with her family in '88.
In 2017, I established a Skype connection with Sevastopol, talked with a friend about the referendum and with his sister. The sister said that they voted for Russia like their Tatars, that a district policeman sometimes came to the polling station, and no one had ever seen the military in the village, neither Ukrainian nor Russian.
Can you imagine how you can get people to vote at gunpoint? Do you really think it's possible? Then something is wrong with your head.
There were no Russian troops at the polling stations! They were engaged in blocking the Ukrainian and army and police forces so that they would not disrupt the holding of the referendum.

Quote: pytar

In addition, there are questions about the legal status of the referendum and its very essence. Few people in the world will admit

Some uncles have prescribed laws on which the people do not have the right to initiate legislation, so that the people cannot speak out on the most pressing issues. Those. in a simple way - the people were gagged. But they were allowed to hold rallies, the demonstrations to which the authorities do not pay attention, saying that these are small marginals. Very handy for power. And if they gave the people the opportunity to speak out, they would vote for the unification of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.
Why does Lukashenka not want to unite with Russia, simply because in this case he will become not the president of the country, but the governor of the western federal district.
So your vaunted democracy is nothing more than a hypocrisy. Today in Ukraine, power belongs to an actively aggressive minority. Are you going to argue?
You cannot understand in any way that the POWER writes the laws. And the government will never accept a law that will prevent it from ruling over the people. Therefore, I would not so deify the laws about "legal statuses" and other crap. And about the fact that the world does not recognize the entry of Crimea into the Russian Federation does not bother me at all. The dog barks, the caravan moves on.

Quote: pytar

Before Kadirov, there was a choice - to go to an agreement and start getting big money, in fact, be bought, or be destroyed. I chose the first wisely.

Those. You are denying Kadyrov the ability to understand that without Russia, Chechnya simply has no future. Do you think he is so stupid? Judge by yourself?

Quote: pytar

According to the laws of the Russian Federation, is it foreseen for the withdrawal of subjekts from the Federation?

Not. But Yeltsin said at that time - on August 6, 1990, 25 years ago, the head of the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR Boris Yeltsin, speaking in Kazan, uttered the textbook phrase: "Take as much sovereignty as you can swallow." Later he repeated it in Ufa.

Quote: pytar

The USA is bad, are you kinder? Why don't you recognize Kosovo, but why do you recognize Crimea?

Because there nobody asked the people what they wanted. And in the Crimea they asked! Do you understand the difference?
Russia inquired about the opinion of the people, and your curators, the United States, did not give a damn about the people, as they should have done so.

[pytar]

Why incredible? How many millions of Ukrainians live beautifully in Russia? How many hundreds of thousands have come from Ukraine today to work?

Yes, many of them work in other countries. People are mobile. This by no means means a desire to lose part of the territory of your country.

There were no Russian troops at the polling stations! They were engaged in blocking the Ukrainian and army and police forces so that they would not disrupt the holding of the referendum.

That is, they committed actions in complete violation of the agreement on the stay of the Russian. Armed Forces in Crimea. This is why you are considered aggressors.

Some uncles have prescribed laws on which the people do not have the right to initiate legislation, so that the people cannot speak out on the most pressing issues.

And that is why other uncles of a low rank decided that it was "in their right" to come from a neighboring country and show the local people how to live? Fuck!

Those. in a simple way - the people were gagged. But they were allowed to hold rallies, the demonstrations to which the authorities do not pay attention, saying that these are small marginalized. Very handy for power.

What kind of people are you talking about? Russian? So you have people imprisoned in prisons even for single pickets.

And if the people were given the opportunity to speak out, they would vote for the unification of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

You are sure? According to my observations, the majority of Belarusians and Ukrainians do not want to be united with Russia anymore. Okay, let's not argue. Neither you, nor I, nor Lukashenka represent these peoples.

So your vaunted democracy is nothing more than a hypocrisy. You cannot understand in any way that the POWER writes the laws. And the government will never accept a law that will prevent it from ruling over the people.

This judgment brilliantly illustrates all your limited concepts! I clap! You just don't know what DEMOCRACY is and how it works! Well, it’s clear that she has never been in your country.
That's what! If some group concentrates power in their hands and suppresses the opposition, there will be no democracy. Democracy works only when there is competition, various opposing political subjects! Only then they / by compulsion / will work / and / for the people. Otherwise, they will fly out in the elections, others will come to their place. Politicians, they are like that, you have to force them! Democracy is a constant struggle for their rights! As Churchill said, democracy is a bad thing, but humanity has not come up with anything better so far.

Therefore, I would not so deify the laws about "legal statuses" and other crap.

You are accustomed to relying on a "good king", and if you are "not kind," bear with 30 years until he dies. You yourself do not decide anything, you do not even believe that such a thing is possible! Therefore, do not believe in the law, all your hope is in the leaders! You really live by concepts, not by laws. Laws do not work for you, but concepts can be turned as you like.

And about the fact that the world does not recognize the entry of Crimea into the Russian Federation does not bother me at all. The dog barks, the caravan moves on.

The world responds to you in the same way. They do not want to reckon with you, and do not want to deal with you. You personally may not care, but your ruling clans are very much worried.

Because there the people / Kosovo / have not been asked what they want.

You are silent about the Kosovo referendum, which is why you know nothing. In the autonomous province of Kosovo, the local Kosovar parliament held a referendum on independence back in 1991. In the meantime, up to 1999, there are no foreign soldiers, except for the Serbs. Serbia did not recognize the referendum and dispersed the local parliament, introduced army and police units. The Kosovars rebelled and began strikes. This is how the Kosovo crisis began.

And in the Crimea they asked!

They asked not according to the charter and indicated in advance that the answer must be YES. I have no doubt that the majority really were FOR, but if something happens in a gross violation of laws and agreements, it is controversial, illegitimate, unproven.

Then something is wrong with your head. Do you think he is so stupid? Judge by yourself?

In a cultural interest, refrain from expressing opinions about your mental health or intelligence. Let's end our dialogue here. I wish you all the best!

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

This by no means means a desire to lose part of the territory of your country.

What part of their country did the Crimeans lose? What are you talking about? Crimean Ukrainians have lost nothing at all, only gained. We haven't even lost our language. He has the same status as Russian. And Tatar too. But in Ukraine, the Russian language is prohibited. But all the same, Ukraine is good, and Russia is bad.

Quote: pytar

That is, they committed actions in complete violation of the agreement on the stay of the Russian. Armed Forces in Crimea. This is why you are considered aggressors.

Yes, consider your health. It makes us neither hot nor cold. The main thing is that we in Crimea did not kill a single person during the "capture" of Crimea. And how many people were killed by your friends in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya? To enumerate further? And for you they are not aggressors. Everything in your head is turned upside down. In such cases, we say - brains on one side.

Quote: pytar

And that is why other uncles of a low rank decided that it was "in their right" to come from a neighboring country and show the local people how to live? Fuck!

Do not understand. What did you mean? And, I realized, this is you about your friends and mentors Americans, who teach the whole world how to live correctly. Here I agree with you. The Yankees have already gotten everyone with their hegemonism.

Quote: pytar

What kind of people are you talking about? Russian? So you have people imprisoned in prisons even for single pickets.

Bare accusations. Give examples.

Quote: pytar

Okay, let's not argue. Neither you, nor I, nor Lukashenka represent these peoples.

You are not Russian, Belarusian or Ukrainian, so don't argue. And I am Russian, so I have the right to speak like that.

Quote: pytar

This judgment brilliantly illustrates all your limited concepts! I clap! good you just n

Boyan, you know what the matter, I always call white white, and black - black. And you, pseudo-democrats, say white, but mean gray.
Democracy is the rule of the people. Who has the power? The one to whom they obey. Is the current government subordinate to the people? Not! It means that there is no democracy and never was. The closest people came to democracy were in the USSR under Stalin. Well, yes, you do not understand this. Because the Stalinist period in the USSR was drenched in crap and slandered. But we, people of the older generation, know this. And I would advise you to read at least the Stalinist constitution (36 years old) and the Soviet Labor Code. Maybe then you will understand something. About democracy.
For you, the main thing, for example, is freedom of speech. And for me the main thing is RESPONSIBILITY for the spoken word. Do you see the difference?

Quote: pytar

As Churchill said, democracy is a bad thing, but humanity has not come up with anything better so far.

And for me, unlike you, Churchill is not an authority on this issue. Why? Because he is a representative of this very pseudo-democracy. How could he say that the best has not only been invented, but also tested.
Honestly, you are so naive, you have found whom and what to believe in.

Quote: pytar

You are silent about the Kosovo referendum,

Do you want to say that when Lavrov, on the international platform, does not recognize Kosovo precisely because there was no referendum, and the decision was made by the parliament, then he openly lied? Boyan, don't you take too much on yourself?

Quote: pytar

They asked not according to the charter and indicated in advance that the answer must be YES.

And who wrote the charter? Did the people of Crimea know and approve of this charter?
Do you seriously think that it is possible to INDICATE everyone (!!!) how to vote? I feel sorry for your brains. They are definitely on one side.
Boyan, you will forgive me, but I did not pursue the goal of offending you, let alone offending you. I am really amazed at your perception of reality.

[pytar]

What part of their country have the Crimeans lost? ... Crimean Ukrainians have lost nothing at all, they only gained.

"Crimeans" are not some kind of separate people! Most of them are Russians, and Russians have their own national state! The largest in the world! All countries have nationalities! Draws a lot of borders? So that others become nationalities?

But in Ukraine, the Russian language is prohibited.

This is not true, no need to lie! In Ukraine, the law "On ensuring the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the state language" is in force. There are no bans on the use of the Russian language, just like the languages ​​of other national minorities. Is being prepared / or already ready?!?! / The law on the status of regional languages! Ukrainian is becoming the language of interethnic communication, which is normal. In the Russian Federation, Russian has such a status! Along with the languages ​​of other national minorities in Ukraine, Russian remains the language of publishing, press, television, education and the service sector.

The main thing is that we in Crimea did not kill a single person during the "capture" of Crimea.

We must pay tribute, they carried out a special operation to someone else's territory brilliant! Largely due to the complete unpreparedness of the Ukrainian Armed Forces to counter. Nobody there believed that the Russian Federation could attack Ukraine!

And how many people were killed by your friends in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya? To enumerate further? And for you they are not aggressors.

Krasnoyarsk, in Yugoslavia, before the intervention of NATO in 1 South War, almost 200 thousand were killed. people, 3/4 of them are Bosnians and Croats. Serbia was an aggressor there. If NATO had not intervened, these our Balkans would have slaughtered until now! In Kosovo, before NATO's intervention, a thousand people died, and another 700 thousand. / 1/3 of the population / became a refugee in neighboring countries!
Iraq - before the intervention of the coalition, Saddam spread 3 large-scale aggression, in which more than 1,5 million people died! Unfortunately, peace has not come and will not come soon. It's the same with Libya. The USSR invading Avganistan also did not bring the world there. Third world, medieval way of life, there is nothing to be done ...

... it's you about your friends and mentors Americans, who teach the whole world how to live correctly ... The Yankees have already got everyone with their hegemonism.

I am not idealizing US policy in any way. They have their sins, you have yours. By the way, you quickly forgot that for 70 years you taught others "how to live", and then you yourself said that you were wrong ...

You are not Russian, Belarusian or Ukrainian, so don't argue. And I am Russian, so I have the right to speak like that.

Nationality does not give you any exclusive right to speak on behalf of entire nations! Nobody authorized you! I personally know many Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians who do not think like you!

... that I always call white white and black black. And you, pseudo-democrats, say white, but mean gray.

That's the whole point of your black and white thinking! There are no other colors and colors for you! Intellectual color blindness!

Democracy is the rule of the people. Who has the power? The one to whom they obey. Is the current government subordinate to the people? Not! It means that there is no democracy and never was.

Democracies are very different! There is a direct line, as, for example, in Switzerland, there is an indirect one, there are many variations. The bottom line is to be able to force the authorities to fulfill the wishes of the people. How it works has already been explained. It doesn't work for you because you're not trying to make it work.

The closest people came to democracy were in the USSR under Stalin. Well, yes, you do not understand this. Because the Stalinist period in the USSR was drenched in crap and slandered. But we, people of the older generation, know this. And I would advise you to read at least the Stalinist constitution (36 years old) and the Soviet Labor Code.

Stalin's dictatorship and Democracy are complete antipodes! To say that Stalinism is a democracy goes beyond the edge of perverted madness! I am from an older generation, a respectable age. And the Constitution, even the most beautiful one, written without mechanisms and guarantees for its implementation, is just paper.

And for me, unlike you, Churchill is not an authority on this issue. .. Yes, because he is a representative of this very pseudo-democracy. How could he say that the best has not only been invented, but also tested. Honestly, you are so naive, you have found whom and what to believe in.

Your right to accept or not to accept other opinions, but let me remind you - you do not have a monopoly over the Truth! I came out of the growth of naivety long ago. He lived half his life in a totalitarian society, the second half in a democracy. I can routinely compare, I see it with my own eyes.

You want to say that when Lavrov, on the international platform, does not recognize Kosovo precisely because there was no referendum, and the decision was made by the parliament, then he openly lied?

Do you think that politicians don't lie ??? Who among us is naive? Politics is always guided solely by interests! Rhetoric simply gives them a "moral and ethical" guise! Don't you ask yourself the question, why did the Russian Federation recognize the Crimean referendum, and not recognize the LPNR, where there was also a referendum? It's all in the interests of the Russian Federation! Crimea is important from its military-strategic location, which is why it was immediately "annexed"! And the LDNR is needed by the Russian Federation as a burden on the legs of Ukraine! That is why they left it as a "gray zone" with an unidentified status! A means of influence, a bargaining chip! Nobody thinks about the population, interesting is more important! So it is from the Russian position on Kosovo! Serbia is supposedly "ours", the recognition of Kosovo will not give Russia anything, it will lose its influence over Serbia.

And who wrote the charter? Did the people of Crimea know and approve of this charter? Do you seriously think that it is possible to INDICATE everyone (!!!) how to vote?

It does not matter who voted how, it is more important who counted the votes. By the way, I have no doubt that the majority of Crimeans really voted for joining the Russian Federation! The question is the legality of the procedures! When the law is not respected, no one can guarantee that this is the will of the people!

Boyan, you will forgive me, but I did not pursue the goal of offending you, let alone offending you. I am really amazed at your perception of reality.

I never offend my interlocutors, despite the difference in opinions. I am ready to fight for the right of everyone to have their own opinion! With all that, I admit that I am amazed at not a lesser degree, your perception of reality.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: pytar

"Crimeans" are not some kind of separate people!

You are absolutely right! Most Crimeans are Russians. And if you knew the history of Ukraine, you would know that Ukrainians are Russians. Therefore, they voted in the referendum.

Quote: pytar

Nobody there believed that the Russian Federation could attack Ukraine!

And no one attacked. What does it mean to attack? It is necessary to conduct hostilities. And they were? Hide the army began to fight against the Russians? Did the people join the partisans? A brother cannot attack a brother. He came to his home.

Quote: pytar

Serbia was an aggressor there.

And so Slobodan Milosevic was killed in The Hague so that he would not tell the truth at the trial. All the mess in Yugoslavia was made by your fellow Democrats from the United States and Germany, just like in Ukraine.

Quote: pytar

It's the same with Libya.

Who was Gaddafi attacking? In Libya, the people lived well under Gaddafi, but how are they living now? After the French brought democracy there and killed Gaddafi?

Quote: pytar

I am not idealizing US policy in any way. They have their sins, you have yours. By the way, you quickly forgot that for 70 years you taught others "how to live", and then you yourself said that you were wrong ...

Empty blah blah blah

Quote: pytar

That's the whole point of your black and white thinking! There are no other colors and colors for you! Intellectual color blindness!

Boyan, you make me call the ice warm. I repeat, there is democracy in Russian - the rule of the people. Everything, period. But you got it into your head that there are different forms of democracy. This is all from the evil one. In fact, this word hides the real power of capital. It is they, the rich, who put their henchmen in power in order to use the power in their own, not the people's (!) Interests. This is obvious even to the blind. But, as I understand it, not for you.
It is correct to call this power - capitalocracy.

Quote: pytar

Stalin's dictatorship and Democracy are complete antipodes!

Boyan, you did not live under the Soviet regime, you did not read the (Stalinist) constitution. You do not know the Soviet Labor Code, but foaming at the mouth, you want to blow me cheap propaganda stuff. Calm down, I was not born yesterday either.

Quote: pytar

... And the Constitution, even the most beautiful one, written without mechanisms and guarantees for its implementation, is just paper.

What other mechanism do you need? If the constitution said - "Everyone has a state-guaranteed right to: work, rest, education, health care"
I don’t know how it was in Bulgaria, so I don’t say anything. But why do you, who have never lived in the USSR for a single day, begin to teach me, tell me all sorts of tales about "totalitarianism" in the USSR?

Quote: pytar

Do you think that politicians don't lie ???

They lie, of course, but not as brazenly as you, accusing Lavrov of lying.
If Lavrov had said this in Russia, then one could doubt it under certain conditions. But if Lavrov said this in Europe, in the presence of European politicians and European media, and no one denied him, then only a person like you could suspect Lavrov of lying.

[pytar]

And if you knew the history of Ukraine, you would know that Ukrainians are Russians.

I know the story! Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians, were part of the same people in the past. The actions of the Russian Federation in the Donbass and Crimea have become a catalyst in the accelerated formation of the Ukrainian nation on an anti-Russian basis. She was somehow fluid before. The AntiUkraine / Novorossiya / project stimulated the strengthening of Ukraine as an Anti-Russia. We have an absolute analogue in the Balkans - from the Macedonian Bulgarians, in just half a century they fabricated the "ancient Macedonians" on an anti-Bulgarian basis.

And no one attacked. What does it mean to attack? It is necessary to conduct hostilities. And they were? Hide the army began to fight against the Russians? Did the people join the partisans? A brother cannot attack a brother. He came to his home.

RF is waging a hybrid war. This is a complex of explicit and implicit actions. Some have been successful, others have failed. In general, when a brother attacks a brother, he is no longer a brother. And this is long-term, the next generations will certainly not be brothers.

And so Slobodan Milosevic was killed in The Hague so that he would not tell the truth at the trial. All the mess in Yugoslavia was made by your fellow Democrats from the United States and Germany, just like in Ukraine.

In Russia, the situation in former Yugoslavia is presented extremely wrongly. I have never seen the opinion of a single Slovene, Croat, Bosnian, Kosovar anywhere in your media! I do not expect that you will have an ordinary opinion on the topic. We have been living here in the Balkans for 13 centuries, we know better how it really is. Ross. propaganda for you, for domestic consumption. From the outside, she looks straight wildly awkward.

Empty blah blah blah

The fact that the USSR exported its model for 70 years, you call it "empty blah blah blah .."? You have an amazing worldview!

I repeat, there is democracy in Russian - the rule of the people. But you got it into your head that there are different forms of democracy. In fact, this word hides the real power of capital. It is they, the rich, who put their henchmen in power in order to use the power in their own, not the people's (!) Interests. It is correct to call this power - capitalocracy.

Democracy literally means Democracy! But the essence is in the details! For example, in Switzerland it is direct - a referendum on all issues. In the United States and in other countries, it is mediated - the Senate, Parliaments, etc. The rich with their capital are part of society. The weight part has a lot of influence. The adequacy of democracy depends on the counterbalancing mechanisms inherent in it. I'm not going to write a lecture here, but I see that you don't understand anything about these questions. Judge for everything by the situation in the Russian Federation, and there, democracy has always been tight ...

Boyan, you did not live under the Soviet regime, you did not read the (Stalinist) constitution. You do not know the Soviet Labor Code, but foaming at the mouth, you want to blow me propaganda cheap stuff. ... I don’t know how it was in Bulgaria, so I don’t say anything. But why do you, who have never lived in the USSR for a single day, begin to teach me, tell me all sorts of tales about "totalitarianism" in the USSR?

Ha! We had a solid "Soviet Union" !!! 16th republic, everything is like yours! And the Constitution as yours was written, they did everything one to one! "Big Soviet brother" taught us / in order /, and then, by the end of the 80s, realizing that it was a dead end, he suddenly said - oh, we were wrong, we were wrong, forget everything we said with you!

Calm down, I was not born yesterday either.

You are still sitting there, stuck in the past.

What other mechanism do you need? If the constitution said - "Everyone has a state-guaranteed right to: work, rest, education, health care"

It doesn't matter where it is written! It is important whether it is executed, and how the system of guarantees for ego performance works! If now you have a democratic Constitution, fair laws, but they are not being implemented, what is the point of them ?! Only when there is competition, change of government, independent media, freedom of speech, separation of powers, alternative choices, only then the laws act, are corrected, improve!

They lie, of course, but not as brazenly as you, accusing Lavrov of lying. If Lavrov had said this in Russia, then one could doubt it under certain conditions. But if Lavrov said this in Europe, in the presence of European politicians and European media, and no one denied him, then only a person like you could suspect Lavrov of lying.

Don't be naive! The ability to lie, distort, manipulate, mislead, use different psychological techniques, etc., is a professional obligation of diplomats! They are learning this! The best diplomat is lying without even blinking! Lavrov is a good diplomat, he knows how to do everything, it is not for nothing that he heads the Ministry of Internal Affairs!
And in general, having admitted that the authorities are lying inside Russia, why did you decide that outside they would tell the truth ?!

[raw174]

Quote: pytar

These islands are controversial! Vietnam also counts them as his own! China invaded the Paracel Islands

All the lands, someone once captured. This is a perfectly acceptable way to expand your jurisdiction. I do not want to say that other methods are bad, you can "squeeze" the land diplomatically, buy, but seizure, including force, is acceptable. Why didn't Vietnam oust the intruder if this is their land?

[pytar]

All the lands, someone once captured. This is a perfectly acceptable way to expand your jurisdiction. I do not want to say that other methods are bad, you can "squeeze" the land diplomatically, buy, but seizure, including force, is acceptable.

Right by force. As China grows stronger, so more land will be squeezed out. And he has great appetites ... In the given case, the United States forcefully demonstrated that it does not recognize Chinese sovereignty on the islands! But the US itself does not pretend to them.

Why didn't Vietnam oust the intruder if this is their land?

Due to the incomparability of forces with China. But the United States has comparable forces. And China could do nothing but a propaganda blowout.

[isv000]

Quote: pytar

These islands are controversial! Vietnam also counts them as his own! China invaded the Paracel Islands

China ... Vietnam ... And where is it about the fact that the Americans can roam there?

[pytar]

China ... Vietnam ... And where is it about the fact that the Americans can roam there?

Why not? How is Chinese sovereignty "fixed" on these islands? Chinese military presence! In response, an American military presence!

... Washington accuses China of obstructing "free shipping" by claiming that American ships will sail in all waters recognized as international.

Note that the United States recognizes the right of every other country to walk in these waters, since until the issue of ownership of the islands is resolved, therefore, the water around them international!

https://topwar.ru/184920-nikto-nash-jesminec-ne-progonjal-v-vms-ssha-vyskazalis-po-povodu-zajavlenij-kitaja-ob-incidente-bliz-paraselskih-ostrovov.html

In the command of the 7th Fleet of the US Navy: Nobody drove our missile destroyer away. The Chinese side's statement is inaccurate. USS Benfold took part in the FONOP mission in accordance with international law and then continued normal operations in international waters. We will continue to act wherever permitted by international law, which, in fact, did USS Benfold. Nothing and no one can stop us or drive us away from somewhere.

I strongly doubt that China went into a direct collision! So far, "his intestines are thin."

[isv000]

Quote: pytar

Note, the United States recognizes the right of every other country to walk in these waters, since until the issue of ownership of the islands is resolved, therefore, the waters around them are international!

Here I look at all your pearls and I am not even surprised how you drown for the Americans - a natural NATO member! Don't you just want to live peacefully, regardless? It's sad, "brother" ...

[pytar]

Here I look at all your pearls and I am not even surprised how you drown for the Americans - a natural NATO member!

In your narrow world, everything is black and white. No matter the situation, no matter what it is about! I don’t understand, for what reasons, "should" be for China, but in fact against Vietnam !?

Don't you just want to live peacefully, regardless?

What do you think this means? So that my opinion necessarily coincides with yours ??? As far as I know, there is no official position of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation on this incident! How did you decide that your personal opinion is necessary for someone else ?!

[tralflot1832]

And how they ousted, in disgrace! Having blocked the course of Benfolda, two corps of destroyers, for a start with uncovered bow guns and along the sides of the machine guns of the combat crew. Or they simply poured the navigator bridge of Burke from a fireman. One US destroyer is not a warrior at sea. Probably like us. Defender was overloaded with BIUS.

[Olddetractor]

Why has no one reported on the completion of the combat mission so far? It's even strange somehow ...

[cniza]

that American ships will sail in all waters recognized as international.

Coming soon ...

[rocket757]

Beijing stressed that the skeletons of the Xisha archipelago are "primordially Chinese territory."

Somehow it will be so ...

[Reserve buildbat]

Crazy mattresses are accused of obstructing "free shipping" of Russia, when we do not allow any shaved half-drowned prisoners to enter the zone, closed in connection with the exercises. So what? Would it be better if that trough got the anti-ship missile in the side? And the mattresses should remember where they are incomplete, and where they are outraged. And bring home in full swing, so as not to catch a couple of splashes here

[Maxxcc]

).

Quote: tralflot1832

And how they ousted, in disgrace! Having blocked the course of Benfolda, two corps of destroyers, for a start with uncovered bow guns and along the sides of the machine guns of the combat crew. Or they simply poured the navigator bridge of Burke from a fireman. One US destroyer is not a warrior at sea. Probably like us. Defender was overloaded with BIUS.

If we put aside this gallant throwing of caps and fantasies in the style of "here we are going to hit them .... next time")))), then in the bottom line for the United States this is a normal working situation. They went in - provoked - left. They do it quite competently. One can discuss the goals to tears. (from purely military ones (they study the tactics of a potential enemy, the impact of military operations on equipment, the use of a complex of forces and means, radars, etc.), to political ones).
But in fact, no one has done anything to them and will not do anything. (and they know it very well))))

[mojohed2012]

It is speculative that on the one hand, the Crimea has such a hype and hype, as if a bomb had been dropped on Kiev. And, on the other hand, China also drives the aggressors out of its waters and there is silence, no Taiwanese and US whine about non-recognition and support of the free dolphin community of the South China Sea!
The Chinese do not listen to whine, but act. And, I am sure, if necessary, they will drown the impudent, without hesitation for a second. And we will think for a long time until the next violator himself leaves the place where he committed such a violation.

[yehat2]

If I were the Chinese in front of the American destroyer, I would start throwing out mock-ups of the anchor world.
let them decide for themselves whether there are real ones among them and whether they want to guess it.

[Ryaruav]

Do you know how much time it takes for a combat platoon an anchor mine?

[yehat2]

this is how to set up. In any case, it will make you nervous

[gorenina91]

PLA Navy ships ousted an American destroyer from China's territorial waters off the Paracel Islands

- The Chinese did not shoot ...
- And once China started with Vietnam (with Saigon's Vietnam ... - then there was a war between the "Vietcong" and South Vietnam) ... - already "a small naval war" ...

[zwlad]

Russia clicked on the nose of small-shavens, China - Americans.
Naglo-Saxons are starting to get in a brazen red face all over the world.
The trend however!

[Yaro Polk]

Because these NAGLOSaks are already sitting in their livers, imagining themselves to be the FUP of the Earth.

[xorek]

Everywhere the United States climbs and insolent! Russia and China should hold exercises off the coast of the United States .. How would they react to this in an interesting way?

[Yaro Polk]

Video, if it appears, "fill in" - we'll love how the Amerzians run away ... just like from Afghanistan.

[Gree Tru]

And who will hang the medals on their coat?

[Gree Tru]

Quote: Seeker

That's just the point. That the territorial affiliation of the taiga is being questioned. Otherwise, they would not go.

Why do you think so? Borders are being closed under tight control.

[Gree Tru]

Quote: Hyperion

Quote: Gri Tru

Fires are everywhere, and everywhere they are extinguished using all available forces and means.

And why take off 3 good planes from extinguishing to help a foreign country, when the level of fire in this very country is much lower than in your own? Is it okay if your house is on fire and you run to a neighbor to put out a burning piece of paper?

We have all the rules with the aircraft fleet. We extinguish as it should.