Military Review

Vandals. The path to glory and death

185
Vandals. The path to glory and death

In this article we will talk a little about the Germanic Vandal people.


"Hatred of a city that has the gift of speech"


The vast majority of people around the world are aware of vandals from only one episode of their centuries-old stories - the sack of Rome in 455. As a matter of fact, the vandals did not do anything supernatural there. In those days, any other armies behaved in the same way in the captured cities. Vae victis, "Woe to the vanquished" - this famous phrase of the Celtic leader Brenna would have signed all the generals of the world, and not only the ancient ones. The Romans themselves were no exception to this rule. Titus Livy wrote in his War with Hannibal:

"Lucius Marcellus ... brought to Rome numerous statues and paintings that adorned Syracuse ... since then it has become a custom to admire Greek art, followed by a brazen habit of robbing temples and private houses in search of works and objects of this art."

By the way, the Vandal king Geyserich allegedly said in that year 455 to the proud queerites who humiliatedly came to him to ask them to take a rich ransom from them:

"I did not come for gold, but to avenge the Carthage you destroyed."


K. Bryullov. "Invasion of Henzerich on Rome"

Of course, this campaign of the Vandals has nothing to do with ancient Carthage, destroyed 600 years before these events. Only in 439, Geyserich captured Carthage, in 455, as they would say now, subtly "protrolled" the Romans. But Plutarch once wrote (about Minos):

"It is truly a terrible thing to hate a city that has the gift of speech."

As a result, it was the vandals who remained in the memory of mankind as barbarians, senselessly destroying priceless works of art, and even a special term “vandalism” appeared.

O. Dymov, one of the authors of the famous "General History, processed by Satyricon", wrote later:

“For two weeks, vandals plundered and destroyed Rome; they could not act otherwise: they already had such a name. At the same time, they undoubtedly displayed taste and understanding, since they destroyed precisely those paintings that were most valuable. "

And how great were the "taste and understanding" of art by the Romans who first "joined" it in Syracuse? This is demonstrated by the same Lucius Marcellus. When transporting the loot to Rome, he gave a stern order: anyone guilty of losing or damaging a statue will be obliged to order a new one at his own expense. And it doesn't matter that it will already be a miserable remake instead of a priceless work of an ancient great master - the main thing is that the total number of sculptures coincides.

I must say that there is no evidence of "senseless destruction of works of art" by vandals. Geyserich plundered Rome, just as Lucius Marcellus plundered Syracuse. He took with him many sculptures and statues, but, of course, did not destroy them.

Less well known are the other traces of vandals in European history. Meanwhile, it was this people who gave the name to the Spanish province of Andalusia.

The memory of one of the Vandal tribes, the Siling, is preserved in the name of Silesia. But the name "Vandal Mountains" (the mountain range separating Bohemia from Silesia) was forgotten.


The first centuries of vandal history


So, the Vandals are a people of Germanic origin, which Paulus Orosius calls akin to the Goths and Suyons (Swedes). For the first time Pliny mentions vandals (XNUMXst century AD). Tacitus and Ptolemy also wrote about them. The Byzantine historian Procopius of Caesarea (VI century) reports that the Vandals themselves considered the coast of the Sea of ​​Azov their ancestral home and on the way to the north annexed a part of the Alans. About the appearance of the vandals, Procopius says:

"Everyone has white bodies and blonde hair, they are tall and beautiful to look at."


Vandals, reconstruction at the Krakow Museum


Image of a vandal in a XNUMXth century manuscript

And Jordan in "Getik" claims that the Vandals are from South Scandinavia (like the Goths). Which, of course, is much more likely.

One way or another, from the XNUMXst century A.D. e. Vandals lived in the area between the Elbe and the Oder. It is possible that their lands extended further to the east - to the Vistula. Two large Vandal tribes are named - the Siling (which gave the name to Silesia) and the Asding. They were forced to unite at the beginning of the XNUMXth century - already in Spain, where both of them were strangers.

Since the 990th century, some Germanic authors have identified the Vandals with the Wends (Vendians). The fact is that these Slavic tribes occupied the same territory as the Vandals once, and their self-designation seemed similar to the name of the German tribe that had long gone from these places. Around 1601, Gerhard from Augsburg writes a biography of St. Ulrich, in which he calls a vandal ... the Polish prince Meszko I. The chronicler Adam of Bremen, who lived in the XNUMXth century, declares that the Slavs used to be called vandals. And even Orbini in the work "Slavic Kingdom" (XNUMX) says:

“As long as the Vandals are real Goths, it cannot be denied that the Slavs are also Goths. Many famous writers confirm that the Vandals and the Slavs were one people. "

However, in the Alamanna annals and later St. Gallenic annals, Avars are called vandals, who at that time lived in the territory of Pannonia and Dacia.

In the second half of the XNUMXnd century, the Vandals of the Asding tribe begin their movement south. It is possible that silings went with them then, but there is no evidence in historical sources for this assumption. The Vandals took part in the Marcomanian War (Germanic and Sarmatian tribes against Rome). Apparently, some of the Vandals adopted Arian Christianity from the Gothic preachers.

In 174, Marcus Aurelius allowed the Asdings to settle in Dacia, here they remained until the 30s. IV century. With the Romans, they coexisted relatively peacefully. A military conflict was recorded in the year 271 - under the Emperor Aurelian. And then the presence of Siling here is clearly recorded: the Vandals have two kings, Siling and Asding, concluding a new peace treaty. Then the emperor Prob fought with the vandals. At the same time, the vandals fought with their neighbors - the Goths and Typphals. But in 331-337. the Vandals were driven out of Dacia by the Goths, whose king was Geberich. In one of the battles, the king of the Asdings Vizimar was killed (this is the first king of the Vandals, whom we know by name).

Emperor Constantine allowed the Vandals to go to the right bank of the Danube - to Pannonia. The Vandals, in turn, pledged to provide the empire with auxiliary troops, mainly cavalry.


Vandal Horseman, Mosaic, Bordj Djedid City, circa 500

The Vandals have lived in Pannonia for 60 years.

In the 380s. they were strongly pushed by the Goths. And at the beginning of the 418th century, under the onslaught of the Huns, the Vandals under the leadership of King Godegisel (Gôdagisl, probably asding) headed up the Danube to the Rhine and further to Gaul. On this path, some of the Suevi and Alans joined them. At the same time, the Suevi and Alans retained their leaders and their relations with the vandals were not vassal, but allied. Moreover, Bishop Idatius claims that up to the defeat by the Visigoths in XNUMX, it was the Alans who played the main role in this alliance of barbarian tribes.

In the winter of 406-407, the Allies invaded Roman possessions in the area of ​​the city of Mongonziaka (now Mainz).

The famous Roman commander Flavius ​​Stilicho (husband of the niece of the eastern emperor Theodosius the Great and father-in-law of the western emperor Honorius), who was of Vandal origin, was reproached by his enemies for allegedly “letting the genie out of the bottle” - he called his relatives for help in the war with the Goths of Radogais. In fact, Stilicho then had to withdraw the troops from the Rhine, which was used by the Vandals, Alans and Suevi. They did not confine themselves to the province of Germany, transferring the hostilities to Gaul as well. A contemporary of those events, the poet Orientius wrote:

"All Gaul started to smoke with one fire."

During one of the battles with the Franks, the Vandal king Godegisel died and along with him - up to 20 thousand soldiers. Then the Alans, who came up in time, saved from the complete destruction of the vandals.

Vandals in Spain


In 409, the Allies crossed the Pyrenees and fought for three years in the territory of modern Spain.

In the chronicle of the Spanish bishop Idazia, it is reported that the conquered lands were distributed by lot by the aliens. The Asdings of King Gunderich occupied Galletia, which then included present-day Galicia, Cantabria, Leon and northern Portugal. The Suevi occupied "the westernmost edge of the oceanic sea" and part of Galletia. Alans settled in the provinces of Lusitania (part of Portugal) and Cartagena. Silingam (king - Friubald, Fridubalth) got the southern lands - Betika. This area is now called Andalusia. The north of Spain was still controlled by the Romans.


At the same time, the conquerors were in a clear minority - 200 thousand newcomers occupied the lands where about 6 million "natives" lived. Orosius claims to be very fast barbarians

"They exchanged swords for plows and the rest of the Romans were favored as friends and allies ... there were some Romans among them who preferred the poor freedom among the barbarians to the tax burdens among the Romans."

Rome did not have the strength to openly resist the vandals, but in 415 they set the Visigoths against the Siling and Alans. In 418, the Gothic king Walia

“Staged a grand slaughter of the barbarians in the name of Rome. He defeated the Siling Vandals in Betika in a battle. He destroyed the Alans, who ruled the Vandals and Suevi, so thoroughly that when their king Atax was killed, the few who survived forgot the name of their kingdom and submitted to Gunderich, the Vandal king of Galicia. "

The king of the Siling was taken prisoner by the Goths and sent to the Romans.

When in 419 the Visigoths left for Gaul, Gunderich, who had already assumed the title of king of the Vandals and Alans, attacked and subjugated his former allies - the Suevi. Then he went to the more promising and richer Bettika, empty after being hit by the Goths.


Gunderich, portrait by an unknown artist, 1513

In 422, he managed to defeat the Roman army, which also included the detachments of the Goth-federates.

But the threat from the more numerous and powerful Visigoths remained.

African kingdom of the Vandals and Alans


In 428, Gunderich died, and his brother Geyserich became the new king, who was to establish a new state in Africa, make Carthage his capital and sack Rome. The great king of the Vandals and Alans, Geyserich, ruled for 49 years and was certainly not the stupid and greedy barbarian that biased Roman authors tried to portray him.

Even the Byzantine Procopius wrote about him:

"Geyserich knew military affairs very well and was an extraordinary person."

Jordan, a representative of a hostile people, in "Acts of the Goths" described Geyserich as a man of short stature and lame because of a fall from a horse, secretive, laconic, far-sighted and despising luxury. And at the same time - "greedy for wealth" (I wonder how this is combined with contempt for luxury?). Also, this author calls Geiserich “stormy in anger"And ready"sow seeds of discord and stir up hatred».

In 437, Geiserich willingly accepted the offer of Boniface, the Roman governor in Africa. "Separatist" Boniface, a rival of the great Aetius, from 427 fought the Roman armies sent against him by Galla Placidia, who actually ruled for her son, Emperor Valentinian III. For help in the fight against the central government, Boniface promised Geiserich two-thirds of the territory of the province of Africa.


Coin Boniface

Olympiador wrote that

"Boniface was a hero who distinguished himself in many battles against many barbarian tribes."

At the same time, the basis of his army was made up of just mercenary barbarians. So he did not see any problem in cooperation with the vandals.

In May 429, the entire people of the Vandals, Alans and Suevi, led by Geyserich (from 50 to 80 thousand people), crossed the Strait of Gibraltar. The vandals were able to do this only thanks to the help of Boniface, who, according to the testimony of Prosper of Aquitaine, called for help "tribes that did not know how to use ships».

Soon Boniface reconciled with Galla Placidia, but, as the saying goes, "the challenge had to be paid." Vandals occupied most of the Roman possessions. And Spain now belonged to the Goths.


In 430, during the siege by the vandals of the city of Hippo Regius (modern Annaba, Algeria), here, either from hunger, or from old age, Bishop Augustine, the future saint and "Teacher of the Church", died.

In 434, Rome was forced to conclude a treaty securing the lands conquered by him in Africa for Geyserich. King Geyserich promised to pay tribute, but in October 439 the Vandals captured Carthage, which became the capital of this state. It is curious that the vandals entered this city without a fight, because, as it is said, almost all of its inhabitants were at that time in the racetrack for the races. In 442 Rome recognized this conquest as well.

Now the kingdom of the Vandals and Alans included the territories of modern Tunisia, northeastern Algeria and northwestern Libya.

Not long ago, the vandals, who did not know how to use ships, were the first of the barbarians to build a real fleet - the most powerful in the Mediterranean. With his help, they captured Sardinia, Corsica and the Balearic Islands. Then it was Sicily's turn.


Vandals at the height of power and glory



In 450, the position of the vandals improved. That year, the ruler of Rome, Galla Placidia, died. She was buried in Ravenna (the capital of the Western Roman Empire since 401), and her mausoleum misled Alexander Blok, who mistook the empress for some kind of saint:

“The coffin halls are silent,
Their threshold is shady and cold,
So that the black gaze of blessed Galla,
Waking up, he did not burn the stone. "

In 451, the Visigoth king Theodoric died in the battle on the Catalaunian fields. Finally, in September 454, Emperor Valentinian killed the best commander and diplomat of Rome - Aetius. Already on May 16, 455, Valentinian himself was killed as a result of a conspiracy. His widow, Licinia Eudoxia, was married to a new emperor - Petronius Maximus. Legend claims that it was she who summoned King Geyserich to Rome. It didn't take long to persuade the vandals. Their fleet entered the mouth of the Tiber, Rome surrendered at the mercy of the victors and for two weeks (from June 2 to June 16, 455) was in their power.

In addition to other captives, Geiserich took Empress Eudoxia and her two daughters to Africa, one of whom (also Eudoxia) became the wife of his son Gunarikh. This marriage gave Geyserich, as a relative of the emperors, the formal right to interfere in the affairs of Rome. In 477, Gunarich inherited the throne of his father, and for 14 years the daughter of Valentinian III was the queen of the Vandals. By the way, according to a more likely version, the formal reason for the vandal attack on Rome was not the invitation of Eudoxia, but her refusal to marry her daughter to Gunarikh. According to the third version, Geyserich declared that the purpose of his "visit" to Rome was to punish the murderers of the legitimate emperor and "restore justice." But it must be admitted that any reason would have been good for Geiserich's Roman campaign. On the one hand, there is a strong army and a large fleet, on the other, there is an ancient rich and beautiful city. And this is quite enough for the army commander to have a desire to send his subordinates "on an excursion."

Only 7 years later, the former Empress Eudoxia and her other daughter, Placidia, were allowed to return to Rome.

After 455, the Vandals occupied the last areas in Africa that still belonged to Rome.

In 468, the Vandals, led by Geyserich's eldest son, Genson, defeated the combined fleet of the Western and Eastern Empires directed against them.

In 475, the Byzantine emperor Zeno the Isaurian concluded "eternal peace" with Geyserich.

Since the official documents in the kingdom of the Vandals and Alans were drawn up in Latin, and the influence of Roman culture was great, Geyserich, in contrast to Byzantium, supported the Arians. Isidore of Seville wrote in The History of the Goths, Vandals and Suevi:

"Geyserich ... spread the infection of the Arian teaching throughout Africa, expelled the priests from their churches, made a large number of them martyrs and handed them over, according to Daniel's prediction, to the Church of Saints, by changing the sacraments, to the enemies of Christ."

The first coins of the kingdom of the Vandals and Alans were minted under Geizerich.


Silver coin with the image of Geyserich

Meanwhile, the "Eternal City" Rome has lost its significance and grandeur, in fact, has ceased to be a subject of international politics. Italy became a battlefield between the Byzantines and the Goths.

20 years after the sack of the Goths, in 476, during the lifetime of the great Geiserich, the commander of the German mercenaries Herul Odoacer overthrew the emperor of the Western Roman Empire Romulus Augustulus and declared himself king of Italy. Odoacer fought with the Ostrogoths of Theodoric the Great, who killed him during a reconciliation feast in Ravenna in 493.


The decline and fall of the Vandal power


The vandals gradually lost their warlike disposition. The historian Procopius, who was with Belisarius during the last war with the Vandals, already called them "the most pampered" of all the barbarians with whom the Byzantines fought.

The penultimate king of the Vandals was the son of the Roman princess Eudoxia - Gilderich. He moved away from the previous policy: he sought an alliance with Byzantium and patronized not the Arians, but the Orthodox Christians. In 530 he was dethroned by his nephew Helimer. Emperor Justinian used this palace coup as a pretext for an invasion. The war went on from 530 to 534. The famous commander Belisarius in 533 captured Carthage and in 534 finally defeated the army of the Vandals, annexing North Africa to the Byzantine possessions.


Supposed portrait of Belisarius, Church of San Vitale, Ravenna

From two thousand captured Vandals, five cavalry regiments were formed (they were called Vandi or Justiniani), which were sent to the border with Persia. Some of the soldiers entered the service personally to Belisarius. Others fled to the Gothic kingdoms or to the north of Algeria, in the vicinity of the city of Salde (modern Beja), where they mingled with the local population. Young women of the kingdom of the Vandals were married to Byzantine soldiers - also barbarians. In 546, the last attempt to resist vandals was recorded. Some Dux and Guntarit, having deserted from the Byzantine army, raised an uprising, which was supported by the local Berber tribes (which, apparently, under the Byzantines began to live worse than under the Vandals). They even managed to capture Carthage, but the uprising was suppressed, its leaders were executed.
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  1. Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 04: 28
    0
    History is an interesting "science". German scientists say that the Vandals are Slavs. Our scientists are Germans. Now, thank God, they agreed that they were still Germans ...
    PS The word "science", when I spoke about history, I put in quotes is not accidental ...
    PS Andalusia from vandals - Vandalusia. Catalonia from the Goths and Alans - Goto-Alania ...
    1. U-58
      U-58 13 July 2021 05: 38
      +3
      And the Berbers are barbarians.
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 13 July 2021 06: 08
        +5
        Well, barbarians are all those who are not Roman or Greek ...
        1. 210ox
          210ox 13 July 2021 20: 15
          +1
          Well, of course. They didn't understand them. And they heard only one thing - var, var. It's like a "kangaroo" who just "don't understand" in Aboriginal
      2. Luminman
        Luminman 13 July 2021 06: 24
        +5
        Several years ago, Swaziland was renamed Eswatini. This was done so that the country was not confused with Switzerland (Switzerland). Swaziland and Switzerland are pronounced very similarly
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 13 July 2021 07: 46
      -2
      In this article we will talk a little about the Germanic Vandal people.


      the Germans themselves - Historian Andrei Paul says the opposite

      Starting from the 1998th century, that is, from the first mention of the Baltic Slavs by Frankish sources, there is a distinct tradition of identifying them with vandals (Strzelcyk 2002, Steinacher XNUMX)


      so the Vandals are Slavs, not Germans.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 13 July 2021 09: 40
        +8
        Andrey Paul - Russian historian
        Here is his LJ
        https://nap1000.livejournal.com/
        You can ask a question personally
        Starting from the 1998th century, that is, from the first mention of the Baltic Slavs by Frankish sources, there is a distinct tradition of identifying them with vandals (Strzelcyk 2002, Steinacher XNUMX)

        Medieval Germanic chroniclers did indeed identify the Wends and the Vandals.
        Everything is very simple. The Slavs occupied the empty Vandal lands
        Complete analogy with the Prussians and Prussians
        At the same time, the Frankish chroniclers themselves did not see the vandals and did not remember - 200 years have passed.
        Procopius of Caesarea personally saw both Ants and Goths and Vandals. About the latter, he wrote that the Vandals and the Goths speak the same language. Are we ready to write it to the Slavs too?
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 13 July 2021 21: 06
          +1
          Quote: Engineer
          Andrey Paul - Russian historian
          Here is his LJ
          https://nap1000.livejournal.com/


          Andrei Paul is a German from the GDR from Rostock and this is not him in this LJ.

          Quote: Engineer
          Procopius of Caesarea personally saw both Ants and Goths and Vandals. About the latter, he wrote that the Vandals and the Goths speak the same language. Are we ready to write it to the Slavs too?


          Yes it is.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 13 July 2021 21: 38
            0
            Andrei Paul is a German from the GDR from Rostock and this is not him in this LJ.


            Heh, and he says that he is he, that is, Paul

            My book on cheering has just been reported.

            https://nap1000.livejournal.com/106822.html
    3. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 13 July 2021 08: 21
      +2
      German scientists say that the Vandals are Slavs. Our scientists are Germans.
      Is Procopius of Caesarea ours or German? winked
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 13 July 2021 21: 19
        0
        Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
        Is Procopius of Caesarea ours or German?


        I don’t know Procopius of Caesarea, but here’s the ambassador to Vasily 3 Sigismund Herberstey "Notes on Muscovy" 1517.



        as you can see Sigismund knew that the Vandals lived in the 16th century in Germany.

        and here is the historian Andrei Lyzlov "Scythian history"



        as you can see, the Goths are also Slavs.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 13 July 2021 22: 24
          -1
          as well as the author of "Slavic Kingdom" Mavro Orbini - vandals, Swedes, Ukrainians, Normans, Finns - the same was the Slavs.
    4. globe
      globe 13 July 2021 08: 43
      +1
      And the Alans are Ossetians
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 13 July 2021 08: 52
        +3
        Alans participated in the ethnogynesis of the Ossetians
    5. U-58
      U-58 13 July 2021 10: 13
      +6
      At that time, the difference between the Germans and the Slavs was no more than that which now "separates" the Russians and the Ukrainians. So is it worth breaking spears?
  2. Korsar4
    Korsar4 13 July 2021 04: 31
    +5
    Centuries go by, and the phrase "Woe to the vanquished" does not lose its relevance.

    From a favorite Stratagem arrangement:

    “The loser is always wrong -
    There is no one to justify him ”(c).
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 13 July 2021 08: 22
      +5
      “The big battalions are always right,” I don’t remember who said.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 13 July 2021 11: 27
        +4
        Quote: Sea Cat
        “The big battalions are always right,” I don’t remember who said.

        "God is on the side of the big battalions" - in my opinion, something like that.
        Greetings Konstantin! hi
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 13 July 2021 16: 37
          +2
          Hello, Sergey! hi
          The weather "import substitution" is enough! All winter you are waiting for summer, and now you are already dreaming - more likely it would be autumn. wassat
          "I love you my rains,
          I love you autumn rains ... "(c) drinks
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 13 July 2021 16: 46
            +3
            Quote: Sea Cat
            The weather "import substitution" is enough! All winter you are waiting for summer, and now you are already dreaming - more likely it would be autumn.

            Yes, for us people who are not used to the heat - it is rather tiring, I do not remember at all that it was hot in St. Petersburg for so long: it seems 2010 was hot, but still not that hot. hi
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 13 July 2021 16: 57
              +1
              In Moscow, I remember this only in the early seventies, when the peat bogs were burning.
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 13 July 2021 17: 03
                +2
                Quote: Sea Cat
                In Moscow, I remember this only in the early seventies, when the peat bogs were burning.

                In my opinion, the peatlands were just in 2010. burned, I remember that in St. Petersburg all the hotels were "packed": Muscovites were leaving en masse for a while hi
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 13 July 2021 17: 12
                  +3
                  So in 2010, obviously, there was a "second run", in the 72nd it burned so that on the channel "Rockets" jumped out of the smoke right in front of their noses and at the same time howled incessantly. The people were chopped up then ... I spent whole days with my friends on the lifeguard in Khimki, I had seen enough. I was winding at sea, so on the way back, because of the smoke, Kharkov was simply not visible.
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 13 July 2021 17: 18
                    +2
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    The people were chopped up then ...

                    Horror! I didn't know about it.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 13 July 2021 17: 30
                      +3
                      I didn't know about it.

                      So no one knew, reports on the city were not published in the newspapers. As a matter of fact, always, and without any peat bogs, there were enough squints in the capital, but here the heat is wild, vodka and the usual nonsense. And not only men, girls too, although much less. One on the mattress managed to get under the wheel (then they were still walking), and even together with her dwarf pinscher. Lacerated wounds from the plates on the thighs, complete shock, and drunk. Both were sent by ambulance. And the girl, as I remember, was a beautiful brunette gypsy type. But he was more sorry for the dog, its hind paw was interrupted.
                      In short, it was an insane asylum.
                  2. Phil77
                    Phil77 13 July 2021 17: 55
                    +2
                    Hello Konstantin! At that moment Dad and I were returning from Muromtsevo, by train. I was a kid, but I remember how we were driving in continuous smoke. It was 72nd.
                  3. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 13 July 2021 18: 13
                    +2
                    And before that, 1920 and 1938. This is already literary, but no less true.
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 13 July 2021 18: 26
                      +2
                      Eh, Seryozha, this is just literary! And 72nd, he is in memory. Hello friend!
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 13 July 2021 18: 49
                        +2
                        Not. For me, and 1972, too, only from numerous stories.

                        Hello Seryozha!
                    2. Catfish
                      Catfish 13 July 2021 18: 28
                      +1
                      And now every year. negative
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 13 July 2021 18: 41
                        0
                        It will be even worse. laughing This is me so ... optimistic. laughing
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 13 July 2021 18: 42
                        +1
                        "We'll live until Monday," and then we'll see. laughing
                    3. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 July 2021 18: 50
                      +2
                      Not. After 2010, the rains are still coping.
                      Let's see how long this anticyclone will last.
                    4. Phil77
                      Phil77 13 July 2021 20: 11
                      +1
                      Sergey! It will be very ... bad. Exactly.
                    5. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 13 July 2021 20: 18
                      +2
                      Reducing daylight hours for us.
                      But these are not all conditions.

                      He himself has not yet received vacation pay.
                      And part-time jobs are not all trying to provide me with a gold reserve in the near future.
                  4. Catfish
                    Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 15
                    +2
                    This one will go away, the other will appear, they often do something.
                  5. Phil77
                    Phil77 13 July 2021 20: 18
                    +2
                    Planet, no people have gone off course. It's scary, but true.
                  6. Catfish
                    Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 22
                    0
                    The planet simply decided to help humanity finish off themselves finally. request
                2. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 13 July 2021 20: 19
                  +2
                  "Drive the teas,
                  Drive, poet, jam "(c).
                3. Catfish
                  Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 23
                  +1
                  What kind of teas are there, when they have already forgotten how the rain looks.
                4. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 13 July 2021 20: 40
                  +2
                  Tea is no worse than mineral water and kvass quenches thirst.
                  And the trees have not forgotten how to cast a shadow.
                5. Catfish
                  Catfish 13 July 2021 21: 32
                  0
                  Yes, I prefer tea any time of the year. Any drink except rum, I guess. smile
  3. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 13 July 2021 18: 57
    +3
    "Rockets" from the smoke right in front of the nose jumped out

    The layout of the "Rocket" was very unsuccessful - when it was on the wings, it lifted its nose and nothing could be seen from the wheelhouse 300 m ahead. When on "Meteor" and "Comet" the wheelhouse was moved to the bow, the problem was solved. I remember the summer of 1972 well - I went to college, stuck out in Dolgop, it was hot, but no more. In 2010 it was much worse in terms of smoke.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 13 July 2021 19: 30
      +2
      Those who have found both years argue that forest fires in 1972 were better extinguished.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 14
        +2
        In 72nd they made vodka better. laughing drinks
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 July 2021 20: 16
        +1
        You need to know the places.
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 17
        +1
        In Moscow, in "Morkovka" on Trubnaya Street. smile drinks
      4. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 July 2021 20: 38
        +1
        “We, not recognized by each other,
        Hitting each other, let's go ”(c).
      5. Catfish
        Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 40
        +1
        "A friend is always ready to give up a place in the boat and a circle" (c)
      6. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 July 2021 20: 41
        +1
        "I, and from the first road,
        I drag my feet with violence ”(c).
      7. Catfish
        Catfish 13 July 2021 21: 33
        0
        "On the front-line roads" (c)
  4. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 13 July 2021 21: 34
    +4
    Well, that's how I found it. In 1972, forest protection had not yet been "optimized", the totalitarian bloody commies for some reason successfully fought against forest fires, and in 2010, with freedom and democracy, it suddenly turned out worse. Probably, the US State Department is to blame.
  5. Korsar4
    Korsar4 13 July 2021 21: 59
    +2
    Yes. The Forestry Code (2006) went through the forestry services thoroughly.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 11
    +1
    The "Raketa" had inertia, and be healthy, even with a full rear, she was flying forward, now I don’t remember how many meters, but once the missilemen hooked up a rescue boat (KSku) of a pond on the wing, turned and dragged it closer to the shore, there were no victims It was. This despite the fact that, jumping out from behind the bridge, they saw both the boat and two green flags ("diving"), but they were able to slow down only the speed, this vessel also had problems with agility, they were able to turn to the shore only when lay on their belly. I knew everyone who was on the boat very well.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 13 July 2021 19: 04
    +3
    In the Rostov region, 72 meters from the excessive heat and drought in the middle of summer, the trees dropped their foliage and stood naked, as in winter. This has not happened since then, although heat and droughts are firmly registered here.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 13 July 2021 20: 13
      0
      ... in the middle of summer, the trees dropped their foliage and stood naked

      Grannies, come on, did they go to church right away? smile
  • Pike
    Pike 14 July 2021 21: 43
    +1
    to keep the heat in St. Petersburg for so long: it seems 2010 was hot, but still not so
    , 11-year cycle, 1999, often after midnight we went swimming on the Nevki and on the ponds of Krestovsky Island .. I remember then the last night swim was on the 30th! September at the former wooden Petrovsky bridge)
  • cat Rusich
    cat Rusich 13 July 2021 20: 52
    +3
    Quote: Sea Cat
    “The big battalions are always right,” I don’t remember who said.
    "God is on the side of the big battalions" - the first to say
    Marquis de La Ferte-Embo and de Mony Marshal of France, lived 1590-1668.
    Became known from the mouth of Frederick II the Great (2-1712) - he often repeated "God is on the side of the big battalions."
    On my own I will add a counterweight from Russia -
    lyrics by A. V. Suvorov
    soldier
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 13 July 2021 21: 31
      0
      Here, I felt that it was not without a German. laughing
  • CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 15 July 2021 14: 38
    +1
    I think Napoleon beat it.
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 13 July 2021 04: 57
    +4
    It's hard to be an emperor or a king ... always envious and rivals strive to stick a dagger in the liver.
    The history of the vandals is fascinating and instructive.
    I thank the author for an interesting article from the ancient world.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 July 2021 06: 01
      +5
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      It's hard to be emperor or king

      It is even harder to become one !!!
      Thank you Valery!
      On my own note, the slandered vandals with the light hand of Roman authors have become an idiom of the Russian Criminal Code with the term "Vandalism". Among other things, along with the "Hooligans" family and the "Moishe" usurer!
      The label is a folk memory, although in the last example I am a little jerky !!!
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 13 July 2021 06: 28
        +5
        By the way, when the Byzantines took Carthage, the capital of the Vandals, they found there all the "cultural" treasures that they took out during the plunder of Rome.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 July 2021 06: 32
          +4
          Quote: parusnik
          By the way, when the Byzantines took Carthage, the capital of the Vandals, they found there all the "cultural" treasures that they took out during the plunder of Rome.

          Hi Aleksey!
          Something, but the children were not alien to the beautiful!
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 13 July 2021 06: 37
            +5
            When beauty is not alien, it is "vandalism". smile I remember that the Novgorodians, during one of their campaigns, brought the church gates from abroad to Novgorod from abroad, installed them at home. We will not condemn, we say a trophy and we glorify our ancestors.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 July 2021 06: 33
        +5
        It's one thing by birthright. And to become - it's not bad to be a little cannibal. Or not very small.

        "Brand on the forehead
        Since birth, rock has burned me out "(c).
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 July 2021 07: 39
          +5
          Quote: Korsar4
          "Brand on the forehead
          Since birth, rock has burned me out "(c).

          I remember Bernodot, the king of Sweden and his "tattoo".
          Not everyone with a tail is wearing a brand on their butt. A number has no tail, but a brand, with others the opposite is true.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 July 2021 08: 56
            +4
            This legend probably has some reason. But who will now figure out what was really there.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 13 July 2021 06: 09
    +10
    Procopius of Caesarea writes that the Vandals quickly became involved in a luxurious life according to the Roman model. Gardens and fountains were built in the homes of noble vandals. The aristocrats visited the baths every day and even erected new ones, ate like gourmets and began to drink wine, not beer, in the manner of the Romans. They began to wear gold jewelry and expensive silk dresses, spent their leisure time in theaters and at the hippodrome, were fond of hunting dogs, and played music.
    1. Luminman
      Luminman 13 July 2021 06: 17
      +10
      It is because of the luxury that the vandals and decayed. Lost the will to resist. Just like modern Europe
      1. SERGE ANT
        SERGE ANT 13 July 2021 07: 03
        +10
        With your permission, Alexey, I will quote in full the quote of Procopius of Caesarea:
        Of all the tribes known to us, the Vandals were the most pampered, the most tempered was the Maurusian tribe. From the time they took possession of Libya, all the Vandals daily used baths and the most exquisite table, everything that only the best and most delicious is produced by the land and the sea. for the most part they wore gold ornaments, dressing in a Median dress, now called silk, spending time in theaters, on hippodromes and among other pleasures, especially when they were fond of hunting. They enjoyed good singing and performances of mimes; all the pleasures that caress the ears and eyes were quite common with them; in other words, everything that people considered the most attractive in the field of music and spectacle was in their course. Most of them lived in parks rich in water and trees, they often arranged feasts among themselves, and with great passion indulged in all the joys of Venus.
        According to historians of that time, the kingdom of the Vandals in North Africa appears to be very developed and prosperous. Vandals patronized the development of crafts, trade, sciences and arts. However, in the XNUMXth century AD, it was destroyed by the Byzantine army led by Belisarius.
        It is because of the luxury that the vandals and decayed. Lost the will to resist.
        It is interesting that in order to capture this state, it took a detachment of only five thousand soldiers - the vandals simply did not want to fight the invaders.
        And the "civilized" Byzantines, by the way, during this war behaved like real "vandals" - they destroyed and plundered cities, burned churches along with the people hiding there, killed old people, women and children. But, unfortunately, in those cruel times, this was a very common thing, one might even say, an element of strategy. Indeed, in order for the enemy to be unable to take revenge, it was necessary to devastate his territory as much as possible and destroy as many inhabitants as possible. By the way, when plundering Rome, the vandals followed the same principle. Yes, in general, not only they ...
        O tempora, o mores!
        1. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 13 July 2021 08: 43
          +8
          And the "civilized" Byzantines, by the way, during this war behaved like real "vandals" - they destroyed and plundered cities, burned churches along with the people hiding there, killed old people, women and children.
          ..But alas, the word "vandalism" remained, not "Byzantineism" smile
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 July 2021 10: 07
            +9
            “Byzantineism” also remained. Only as a symbol of deceit, often cruel.
            1. Xlor
              Xlor 13 July 2021 10: 54
              +9
              The word "Byzantinism" is very applicable to politics ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 06: 30
    +3
    Quote: Luminman
    Several years ago, Swaziland was renamed Eswatini. This was done so that the country was not confused with Switzerland.

    Once in Swaziland, at first glance, it is difficult to understand where you are - whether in Switzerland or Swaziland. They did the right thing, that they renamed it, otherwise you will inadvertently confuse it with Switzerland ... wink
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 13 July 2021 06: 38
      +5
      Austria is confused with Australia.
      And the resettlement of peoples is capable of confusing all the cards.
  • VLR
    13 July 2021 06: 31
    +6
    Incidentally, I recalled lines from Vysotsky's song about Geiserich's alleged desire "to avenge destroyed Carthage":
    "The bear immediately fell into ecstasy
    After a liter of drunk, Says: they kicked us out of Egypt,
    I can’t bear this insult,
    I wish to wash away the shame from the Nativity of Christ. "
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 06: 44
    +5
    Quote: Korsar4
    They confuse Austria with Australia.

    One American prezik confused Slovakia with Slovenia.
    And nothing, I was elected a second time ...
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 13 July 2021 07: 21
      +4
      Right. Mitrofanushka's mother also said that geography is not a noble science.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 13 July 2021 08: 20
        +5
        ... that geography is not a noble science.

        And why Eorgafia at all, when there are cabbies, her thesis.

        Hello, Sergey. hi
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 13 July 2021 08: 53
          +4
          Hi Constantine!

          Yes. This is my free retelling.
          And with the development of gadgets, only old hemp, like me, can navigate by intuition.

          Only the inner voice sometimes fails.
    2. Bolt cutter
      Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 12: 28
      +2
      One American prezik
      I asked the advisers why they speak Mexican in Spain wassat Real fact!
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 13 July 2021 12: 40
        +5
        Quote: Bolt Cutter
        I asked the advisers why they speak Mexican wassat in Spain. A real fact!

        George W. Bush, while in Greece, called it "Greekland", the word "Greece", apparently, he did not know. wassat
        1. Bolt cutter
          Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 12: 43
          +2
          George W. Bush
          Champion in the number of blunders. But they chose ...
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 13 July 2021 12: 45
            +3
            Quote: Bolt Cutter
            Champion in the number of blunders. But they chose ...

            In my opinion, he was generally close to dementia, but the American system of power is designed in such a way that it does not greatly affect everything, most likely everything would quickly fall apart in our country. hi
            1. Bolt cutter
              Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 12: 52
              0
              we would most likely fall apart quickly.
              Yeltsin survived. And his brains were already in alcohol - it's not even dementia. Although yes, the state control system is stable. Foolproof good
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 13 July 2021 12: 54
                +4
                Quote: Bolt Cutter
                Yeltsin survived.

                But with great difficulty.
                I wanted to ask you all what is gooseberry gin?
                Is it gooseberry gin or gooseberry gin? hi
                1. Bolt cutter
                  Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 13: 10
                  0
                  This is one of the creations of Liverpool moonshiners Whitley Neill good ... In addition to other herbal additives, gooseberry berries are used to flavor this gin. When distilling gin "London gin" (London gin), the vapors from the mash are passed through a cassette in which there are plants that give the gin unobtrusive taste and aroma (most often dry). This is how the aforementioned miracle is done. By the way, this differs the product from the Plymouth gin - there all the flavors are thrown directly into the distilled mash.
                  Liverpudlians still have a lot of such aces up their sleeves. https://whitleyneill.com/en_GB/products/
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 13 July 2021 14: 31
                    +4
                    Quote: Bolt Cutter
                    vapors from the mash are passed through a cassette in which there are plants that give the gin an unobtrusive taste and aroma

                    And if you insist and then overtake? interesting to get the same thing?
                    1. Bolt cutter
                      Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 14: 46
                      +1
                      Insist on a strong drink and then distill it again? Probably something like Plymouth will turn out, but with an even more intense taste and aroma. For me "London" is better - "Plymouth" looks too much like cologne wassat .
                      1. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 13 July 2021 14: 51
                        +1
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        London is better for me

                        We certainly don't offer such a variety of gins as whitleyneill. Recently, strawberry Beefeater has been actively promoted:

                        I honestly didn't like it very much. hi
                      2. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 15: 00
                        +2
                        whitleyneill does not offer such a variety of gins.
                        What do you think is the reason? Lack of demand? By the way, the fashion for gin has been added here for the last 3 years. He came to me for green tea and another one for horseradish (in a good way). And Beefeater is as cheap as Gordon's.
                      3. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 13 July 2021 15: 07
                        +2
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        What do you think is the reason? Lack of demand?

                        I honestly don't know. In principle, gin is a fairly well-known drink, but of course it is much inferior in popularity to vodka, whiskey and cognac.
                        And as it was 20 years ago - Gordons, Beefeater and Sapfir (much less often), so nothing has fundamentally changed: on stage - all the same.
                        For the last 3 years, the fashion for gin has been added.

                        Probably it just hasn't reached us yet hi
                      4. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 15: 13
                        +1
                        Gordons, Beefeater and Sapfir
                        Almost the same swill. Sapphire, however, is in the middle price category. I wonder if sales of the same Wheatley will go in Russia? Or your traditions of use are not the same? After all, you need to drink gin with tonic, (some even add juice) with fruits / herbs, for a long time.
                        By the way, Humbert, a pedophile from Lolita, drank gin with pineapple juice. Delicious, yeah drinks
                      5. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 13 July 2021 15: 21
                        +2
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        After all, you need to drink gin with tonic,

                        Yes, that's how they drink with us.
                        Or your traditions of use are not the same?

                        In general, I think - they are not the ones, usually they do not sit at the table with gin and tonic, long drinks are still not very popular in the Russian feast.
                        I wonder if sales of the same Wheatley will go in Russia?

                        Hard to say, I would buy out of curiosity to try. I like gin, although I rarely use it. drinks
                      6. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 13 July 2021 15: 28
                        +1
                        we do not sit at the table with gin and tonic, long drinks are still not very popular in the Russian feast.
                        One hope for hipster bars wassat Although it is possible that in the near future I will check the Russian market for the demand for gin.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 13 July 2021 07: 10
    +9
    and despises luxury. And at the same time - "greedy for wealth" (I wonder how this is combined with contempt for luxury?).
    It fits well. A person can be extremely modest in everyday life and have an irresistible craving for money-grubbing. Moreover, the latter is not necessarily negative. A prime example is Ingvar Komprad, the founder of IKEA.
    Thank you, Valery!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 13 July 2021 07: 22
      +5
      If we consider the pros and cons of IKEA, and even in dynamics, a long list can come out.
    2. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 13 July 2021 11: 30
      +6
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      It fits well. A person can be extremely modest in everyday life and have an irresistible craving for money-grubbing.

      Good afternoon Anton,
      quite a common Protestant worldview: Max Weber "Protestant Ethics and the Spirit of Capitalism" - a classic! drinks
  • SERGE ANT
    SERGE ANT 13 July 2021 07: 11
    +9
    We call the merciless destruction of cultural and artistic monuments, the senseless destruction of cultural and material values ​​vandalism. Other Europeans use this word in the same sense. But the ancient Germanic tribes of Vandals who conquered part of the Roman Empire and sacked Rome in 455 were not vandals in the modern sense. In 1794, during the bloody events of the Great French Revolution, Bishop Blois Gregoire, In his letter "Rapport sur les destructions opérées par le vandalisme" he first used the word "vandalism" in its modern meaning. The word turned out to be so successful that five years later the French Academy (Académie française) entered it into the dictionary of the French language, and off we go ... And now we read in Dahl: VANDAL, the name of the people; turned into the general name of a barbarian, a rude, unenlightened person. Vandalism, a rude act, contrary to enlightenment, education.
    For the sake of fairness, we note that the popularizer of the word was not the author of the neologism. In another ancient French epic, the vandals are represented as destroyers. The inhabitants of the Eternal City, which for so many years dictated its will to all the peoples of the world, suddenly realized to their horror that they had been conquered by despised barbarians. Truly, it was a collective psychological trauma rooted in the subconscious.
    In the paintings and lithographs of the 455th century, vandals are represented by rude and uncouth dorks, some kind of rabble of bearded robbers and robbers, reminiscent of mercenaries who rape girls and arrange drunken orgies on the ruins of the ancient world. Of course, the two-week sack of Rome in XNUMX by the hordes of the Vandal King Henzerich carried with it all the "charms" of the occupation, but historians have no data to somehow single out this particular tribe. Against the background of all the atrocities committed in history, the people of Hänzerich do not stand out for any special atrocities, or a fatal propensity for destruction and the like.
    But the deed was done, and the word "vandal" for many years became synonymous with the barbarian and the destroyer. Which, in general, as we see, does not quite correspond to reality.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 13 July 2021 08: 15
    +2
    So, the vandals are a people of Germanic origin
    A. Samsonov claims that there were no Germanic tribes, but were entirely Slavic-Aryans. smile
    1. Luminman
      Luminman 13 July 2021 11: 02
      +2
      It was like that for several thousand years. Until the Y chromosome mutated
  • north 2
    north 2 13 July 2021 08: 39
    +3
    that the concept of "vandalism and vandals" is associated with the destroyers of cultural property and
    humiliation of shrines, it is not at all because of the behavior of the vandals when they plundered Rome. The vandals simply plundered Rome and took the plundered away with them, but did not destroy those cultural values ​​that they could not take with them. But what the vandals did in the Vandal Kingdom they created in North Africa, destroying their Churches and shrines, precisely because of this behavior of vandals, the concept of "vandal and vandalism" began to be perceived as a destroyer and destroyer of cultural values ​​and shrines. It's not for nothing that I write "for this behavior" and not "after such behavior." Because the word "vandalism", in order to apply it to the destroyers of cultural values ​​and shrines, was first used by monks during the Great French Revolution, when they saw how it destroys cultural values ​​and shrines.
    As for the concept of "barbarians", it is different for different peoples, although the basis is common, that it is
    most often strangers, uncultured, rude people.
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 08: 50
    +3
    Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
    Is Procopius of Caesarea ours or German? winked

    He seems to have been Greek. And for them, that the German, that the Slav - all barbarians and all look alike
    1. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 13 July 2021 11: 24
      +3
      laughing those. just a Greek, he has his own opinion, but not ours and not German. laughing
      German scientists say that the Vandals are Slavs. Our scientists are Germans.
  • depressant
    depressant 13 July 2021 09: 17
    +4
    The simmering historical processes, presented by the esteemed Valery, forces me to compare the article with the technique of Italian opera. You listen to the aria, everything is clear, and then a duet follows, where everyone sings about his own things, not listening to a partner, or even a trio, and even a fourth someone intervenes, and the choir does not remain without action - everything is like in life! And the general state of the life process is created by musical means, forcing the listener to an unambiguous assessment of it - this is how it was built, modern Europe!
    In the chorus of historical voices, I was especially interested in the casually, in one line, the mentioned Emperor Prob - I had never heard of such a thing! But a man lived, brought something of his own into the historical process ...
    And here's what I learned. He was a wonderful person!

    The Roman emperor Probus, Marcus Aurelius, was born on 19 August 232 in the city of Sirmia in Pannonia and was killed by his soldiers in 282.
    His father was only a peasant gardener. Having distinguished himself as a centurion, he received the title of tribune and ended his life in Egypt. And although the mother of the future emperor was of a more noble birth, Probus had a modest hereditary property, relatives were not high-ranking. So Prob was rich all his life and shone only in his prowess. "In his youth, he was already so famous for his bodily strength and courage in the war with the Goths that, by decision of Valerian, he received the title of tribune and command over the legion, being almost a beardless boy. He served all subsequent emperors just as valiantly. Under Aurelian he participated in the campaign to Palmyra, and made his last exploits in Africa: he freed Carthage from the Marmarids, and then defeated them in Libya. "
    1. depressant
      depressant 13 July 2021 10: 00
      +7
      How did the humble Prob become the emperor? He became one because there are times when something is appreciated that should be appreciated by ordinary human standards.
      As the commander of the legion, Prob was strict and just, never tolerating senseless cruelty, but he did not tolerate idleness either. "If there was no military action, he forced the legionnaires to do public works. After him, there were a lot of structures built by soldiers in Egypt. On the Nile, he undertook so much work that, in fact, he was the only one who contributed to the correct receipt of the grain tax. In all the places where he served, many bridges, temples, porticoes, basilicas were built by the hands of his soldiers, the mouths of many rivers were widened, many swamps were drained and fields were opened in their place. Prob was unanimously proclaimed emperor. They say it happened against his will, and at the gathering where he was clothed in a purple cloak, Prob allegedly said: “This is not profitable for you, warriors, you will not be well with me: you"."

      Further Prob successfully participated in many military actions in line with the general policy of Rome. And he died ... Well, probably, being a two-core and indefatigable himself, he demanded the same from his soldiers, without entering the idea of ​​their usual human nature.
      In 282, hurrying to the theater of military operations with the Persians, he arrived at his homeland with an army and along the way decided to do good to his native Sirmia by ennobling the land and expanding the cultivated land by draining some vast swamp. To do this, a huge ditch had to be dug in order to divert water from the swamp to the Sava River. It would seem that it was a work familiar to the legions, but the soldiers indignant at the task, already tuned in to the upcoming battle, killed Prob.
      Educational, isn't it? It happens that even the smart ones, having mixed their tasks, lose their shores, and with them their lives.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 13 July 2021 10: 10
        +4
        So there are limits to those who are forced to work.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 13 July 2021 10: 08
      +3
      In life, too: everyone sings about his own, and does not often listen to others.
      1. depressant
        depressant 13 July 2021 11: 41
        +4
        A glance can say much more than words, but you can also hide and even deceive. They trust speeches more, because the look is short, the speech can be carried on endlessly, figuring out the nuances. The cycle of understanding as a compromise between partners can take decades to develop. But, having gained experience of compatibility - even in life, even in politics, partners suddenly close one another from another. Affected by an unconditioned reflex, according to which to be too open for another means to be vulnerable, and this is dangerous, and when fear overwhelms even an ordinary person, even a policy, protection is built through the break of contact. A person or a whole country stops hearing not only a partner, but also himself.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 13 July 2021 13: 32
          +2
          https://stihi.ru/2021/03/18/3629

          https://stihi.ru/2004/10/01-1169

          Both are clumsy enough. But these are formulations on a given topic.

          And here's another:

          https://stihi.ru/2001/10/04-408
          1. depressant
            depressant 13 July 2021 13: 46
            +4
            And someone disapproved of you, Sergei. How can you trample on sincerity?

            Intonation
            Korsar4
            You don't say what you say.
            Speech coloring changes the word.
            Another, scolding, frowns severely.
            And the heart only feels its native affection.

            Overcome the barrier happens.
            And what are these palisades to the wind?
            You will feel another word with a prick.
            Anything else will encourage and give an example.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 13 July 2021 14: 49
              +2
              Easily. But can it really hurt?
              1. depressant
                depressant 14 July 2021 13: 26
                +2
                "But in the continuous darkness the wandering light is a beacon." (C)

                It just happened to be a word.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 14 July 2021 16: 35
                  +1
                  "Children, be like a beacon!" (from).
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 14 July 2021 16: 46
                    +2
                    "Can the appearance of a child in the family cause conflicts? - Yes, if the child appeared late and drunk." (C)
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 14 July 2021 19: 07
                      +1
                      “- Do not slander our youth:
                      She is our Hope and stronghold! " (from).
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 14 July 2021 19: 23
                        +2
                        Get the raft ready!
                        The rain showed his youthful face and, laughing, he was like that! How will the rain come?
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 14 July 2021 19: 46
                        +1
                        In the next three days - unlikely.

                        It didn't even rain with us.
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 14 July 2021 20: 06
                        +2
                        Wait on thursday wassat )))

                        Hope will come true.
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 14 July 2021 20: 58
                        +1
                        All the better. Let's see what tomorrow will please.
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 14 July 2021 21: 46
                        +2
                        It became slightly cooler on our edge of Muscovy.

                        "Childhood ends when you start avoiding puddles" wassat )))
                      6. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 14 July 2021 22: 01
                        +1
                        Clouds are already good.

                        "I want the summer not to end" (c).
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 14 July 2021 22: 12
                        +2
                        In our latitudes, only the winter period of the year is endless.
                        But if I could find where to put the coin in order to prolong the heat a little, I would strictly follow this rule)))
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 02: 28
                        +1
                        I also thought that in another world the words of this song were spoken.
                      9. depressant
                        depressant 15 July 2021 11: 23
                        +2
                        And here it is, the heat is back!
                        Diluted with raindrops, calmness, marked by the cessation of the Brownian movement of air molecules, it hovers over the world, and miserable baby crows the size of an adult crow in the morning cry and demand water.
                      10. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 12: 51
                        +1
                        If they demand, they will receive it.
                        We are good. Mineral water reserves are still at hand.
                      11. depressant
                        depressant 15 July 2021 13: 34
                        +1
                        But will heaven respond? I cannot water the crows and pigeons, there are too many of them - flocks! And they are everywhere.

                        And as for the drinking bowl for me - tap water. I boil it, refrigerate it in jars and bring it to ice in the refrigerator. And, pouring it, ice, into a beautiful bottle, enjoy! I never thought that boiled water can be so delicious!
                        And hot tea with lemon became amazingly delicious! )))
                      12. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 14: 33
                        +1
                        Heaven is listening to you. Lightning flashes. The clouds look promising.

                        Himself a fan of tea in all its forms.

                        https://stihi.ru/2020/11/12/2190

                        https://stihi.ru/2008/05/16/2088
                      13. depressant
                        depressant 15 July 2021 16: 10
                        +1
                        This:

                        I put tea
                        Korsar4
                        I put on the tea. We drink it together with our son.
                        Because a piece of fire
                        Through the stove, samovars, fireplaces;
                        Through the years, spaces, peaks;
                        With linden, mint; in playful fun,
                        Or chasing clouds from the face;
                        Or gaining strength on the road
                        (Cup holders are always ringing);
                        Summing up, as usual, the results,
                        Ile the past in my soul raging;
                        Through roads, bumps, rapids;
                        Preserving the super-beginning in oneself;
                        Through tents, houses and halls ...
                        Invariably solemnly strict
                        Protects him and me.

                        Do you know what I hear in your lines? Music of the time, coming from the distant years. And now it, approaching and growing, is transformed into the howl of the wind outside the window - at the same time plaintive and threatening, and then under the sky, which was rapidly covered with dark clouds, under the thunderclaps, as if history itself begins to sing.
                      14. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 16: 17
                        +1
                        Music is everywhere: the rustling of leaves, the sound of the wheels of electric trains on the rails, and the creak of the door.

                        And the rain went.
                      15. depressant
                        depressant 15 July 2021 17: 18
                        +2
                        The distant long-distance highway always sings! And now, under the leisurely raindrops, her singing is forming an indignant symphony. I sit, smoke ... Nature sings, they leave and come back again then her, my adversity, me, her - not in the eye, but in the eyebrow! And here - thunderous rolls, planting a layer of high dust. And it's good, as long as there are waterfalls in the window of green leaves, I am glad for them, they are glad for me!
                      16. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 20: 04
                        +1
                        Very beautiful.
                      17. depressant
                        depressant 15 July 2021 20: 11
                        +2
                        I write down what goes into my head. I love your poems. They are like music, transformed into an endless road of time, which, rising upward, leads away from the sinful earth. I like it.
                      18. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 20: 44
                        +1
                        The road is wonderful. And the sinful earth does not hinder her. But you can lean on the ground.
                      19. depressant
                        depressant 15 July 2021 21: 03
                        +2
                        Yes, we all lean on the ground, even those who have no legs. But not everyone can walk on it confidently and without catastrophic consequences.
                      20. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 22: 01
                        +1
                        Who chooses the path, who chooses the lane, and who chooses the autobahn.
                      21. depressant
                        depressant 15 July 2021 22: 35
                        +2
                        And who sees the grave ahead. A woman in our house died of covid. We need to get vaccinated. I thought, in a nearby clinic, as Yandex announced. It turns out not. Here they only give an appointment, you have to go to the regional hospital. The neighbors went and did it. But they have their own transport, and I do not have it. A cramped minibus full of people. Roundtrip. Wait at stops among people. The chance of catching an infection is great. I have no health after last year's illness, my lungs already wheeze. In general, nothing shines for me. As if I'm living out my last days.
                        Never mind my road.
                      22. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 15 July 2021 23: 00
                        +1
                        I'm waiting for the queues to clear up. But no one will give more than two weeks. I can't stand the line
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 10: 51
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    The Slavs occupied the empty Vandal lands

    There have never been empty lands on the southern coast of the Baltic!
    Germans, Prussians (?), Balts, Finno-Ugric and Slavs ... The devil himself will not understand. And historians even more so!

    Quote: Engineer
    Procopius of Caesarea personally saw both Ants and Goths and Vandals. About the latter, he wrote that the Vandals and Goths speak the same language.

    Curious where he saw them together?
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 July 2021 11: 18
      +4
      There have never been empty lands on the southern coast of the Baltic!

      Well, if we assume that with the departure of some peoples, their lands were occupied by others, then yes
      Germans, Prussians (?), Balts, Finno-Ugric and Slavs ...

      Vinaigrette from different eras. What is it for? The Slavs are not recorded in the Baltic before the 6th century. The vandals had long since left her.
      Curious where he saw them together?

      He saw them under Decimus under Tricamar and in Carthage itself. For he was Belisarius's secretary, most likely was present during the interrogations. And the Goths made up a large part of Belisarius's army. It was in the "War with the Vandals" that Procopius wrote how the Goths and captured vandals communicated with each other.
      You should at least read something on the topic. Including Procopius
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 11: 39
    +3
    Quote: Engineer
    Slavs are not fixed in the Baltic before the 6th century

    Interestingly, who earlier (later) the XNUMXth century could record the ethnic groups living there? wink

    Quote: Engineer
    And the Goths made up a large part of Belisarius's army.
    You should at least read something on the topic. Including Procopius

    I don’t want to delve into textbooks, but the Huns made up a large part of the army, in my opinion.
    I would read it with pleasure on the topic, however, except for this very Procopius, no one of his contemporaries writes on this topic. And one person's testimony is just a fake. Something like modern journalists sucking information out of their fingers
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 July 2021 12: 00
      +5
      Interestingly, who earlier (later) the XNUMXth century could record the ethnic groups living there?

      Ancient and early medieval historians quite fix it for themselves. The same Jordan.
      Archaeologists do not record ethnic groups, but they do a good job of recording cultural and historical communities. They learned very well how to separate the Slavs from the Germans in the 4th-6th centuries.
      Slavs - burials without inventory. cremations, dugouts, and potted stucco ceramics prevail.
      Teutons - inventory burials, corpses prevail, column houses, bowl ceramics - stucco and pottery.
      The South Baltic is very well excavated. There were no Slavs in the Baltic until the 6th century. They are fixed precisely in the 6th century - ceramics close to Praga-Korczak appeared.
      I don't want to dig into textbooks

      that's noticeable
      but a large part of the army was, in my opinion, the Huns

      How does this cancel out the presence of other tribes in the Byzantine army?
      I would read it with pleasure on the topic, however, except for this very Procopius, no one of his contemporaries writes on this topic. And one person's testimony is just a fake. Something like modern journalists sucking information out of their fingers

      Jordan and Isidore of Seville write briefly. They confirm the words of Procopius. Verification of Procopius was done long ago and many times. This is one of the most reliable early medieval writers. For Russian history, he is generally invaluable because he was the first to mention the Slavs proper in the form of "Sklavina", and even in sufficient detail.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 13 July 2021 11: 58
    0
    Since the XNUMXth century, some Germanic authors have identified the Vandals with the Wends (Vendians). The fact is that these Slavic tribes occupied the same territory as the Vandals once, and their self-designation seemed similar to the name of the German tribe that had long gone from these places.

    And again, wonderful "coincidences". And they occupied the same territory, and were called the same. "Slavs" is not an ethnonym, but a contemptuous nickname. There is no such ethnos as the "Slavs", and the Vandals were and are the Germans
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 July 2021 12: 02
      +4
      See answer above. Then it is impossible to explain the difference in material culture. And it is recorded very clearly. Those who were not there left a noticeable mark.
      PS Most importantly, Jordan knew both the Veneti and the Vandals. But I never mixed them.
      1. Force multiplier
        Force multiplier 13 July 2021 12: 25
        0
        "Prague culture" is a collection of primitive artifacts that are very different typologically, but have one thing in common - primitiveness. In addition, it dates earlier than the "Slavs" are mentioned in Bohemia. Pomorie is not part of the Prague culture area.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 13 July 2021 12: 29
          +3
          No.
          Prague culture is really primitive, but rather homogeneous. Is it dated earlier than the mention of the Slavs? Naturally, for it was formed in the area of ​​unwritten peoples. There were no written francs at that time.
          Pomorie is not part of the Prague culture area, right. But the similarity of ceramics since the 6th century clearly shows where the newcomers to the Baltic came from.
          And by the way, you ignored the main thing
          Most importantly, Jordan knew both the Veneti and the Vandals. But I never mixed them.
          1. Force multiplier
            Force multiplier 13 July 2021 13: 18
            +3
            If we consider primitiveness to be the main typical trait - yes, it is uniformly primitive.
            Naturally, for it was formed in the area of ​​unwritten peoples. There were no written francs at that time

            Then on what basis do you identify the Prague culture with the "Slavs"?
            similarity of ceramics

            And there is no similarity. The pottery of the Menkendorf culture is made using a potter's wheel. So whether there were aliens, how many, and if they were, who they were is unclear. But who could they be understood if we compare that the period of the decline of the Przewor culture and the beginning of the Prague culture coincides with each other and with the appearance of the Huns in Central Europe.
            ignored the main thing
            Most importantly, Jordan knew both the Veneti and the Vandals. But I never mixed them.

            Naturally, I ignored it, because you added it after I wrote my answer. It was in the initial commentary that the Venda of the medieval chroniclers were identical with the Vandals. Not about Getyk. Yes, Jordan distinguished between Vandals and Venets, but who he understood by Venets is a big question. My interpretation for today - he understood by them the peoples of Central Europe to the north of the Carpathians. The Venets are the same generalization as the "Slavs", but here the community is not through socio-political status, like the "Slavs", but through a community of ethnic origin or by the name of a politically dominant people (i.e. from the Vandals), which is at least before V in was correct, but by the time Jordan is gone
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 13 July 2021 14: 06
              +4
              Then on what basis do you identify the Prague culture with the "Slavs"?

              I follow the generally accepted point of view. Time, place, proximity to Penkovo ​​culture, heir to Prague culture - Luka-Raikovets culture, also Slavic.
              And in general she is as "non-German" as possible.
              And there is no similarity. The pottery of the Menkendorf culture is made using a potter's wheel.

              I was wrong . Pomeranian ceramics, including Menkendorf ceramics, date back not to Prague, but from Sukovo-Dziedzitskaya.
              Memory failed. But this culture is still not German at all and is traditionally considered Slavic.
              Yes, Jordan distinguished between Vandals and Venets, but who he understood by Venets is a big question. My interpretation for today - he understood by them the peoples of Central Europe to the north of the Carpathians. The Veneti is the same generalization as the "Slavs", but here the community is not through socio-political status, like the "Slavs", but through a community of ethnic origin or by the name of the dominant politically people (i.e. from the Vandals), which was correct at least until the V century, but by the time of Jordan there is no longer

              Looks like a superfluous entity.
              Jordan wrote about events long before the 5th century (including). And the path is ready is confirmed by archeology. Where is the evidence that vandals dominated the Venetian habitat for some time?
              Jordan writes clearly about the events preceding the 4th century. First, the Goths faced the Ulmerugs, then the vandals. Only when moving inland did they encounter the Veneti, who have nothing in common with the vandals across the Jordan. The vandals of the Jordan are glorious, the Veneti are despicable
              Although their names now change according to different clans and localities, nevertheless mostly they are called sklavens and antes

              It can be seen that he understood the early Slavs by the Veneti. Why ignore it?
              Your point of view is a bit like that of the late Kolomiytsev. But this very exotic character was (is?).
              In your concept, I have not noticed why the traditional point of view is so bad that it is completely rejected.
              1. Force multiplier
                Force multiplier 13 July 2021 15: 52
                0
                I follow the generally accepted point of view ... this culture is still completely non-Germanic and is traditionally considered Slavic

                The book says so. Clear. You have a rather inquisitive mind. Are you satisfied with this explanation yourself? Why is it considered so? When did this point of view become generally accepted? Based on what sources? In what historical context was this point of view formulated and what purpose could such a formulation pursue within this historical context? (For example, what is Pan-Slavism in the context of the 19th century?)

                Between these rivers lies Dacia, which, like a crown, is surrounded by the rocky Alps. At their left slope, descending to the north, starting from the birthplace of the Vistula River, a populous tribe of Venets is located in immense spaces. Although their names now change according to different clans and localities, they are still predominantly called Sklavens and Antes.

                What do we see? Geographical localization and the fact that "the names are now changing according to different gentes and localities." And then there are two generalizing terms with an obvious meaning. Sklavens - sclavus, everything is clear. And the ants are those who are opposite, those who are on the other side of the border (mountains, Danube, limes). And Veneta, apparently, is an attempt to identify precisely through an ethnonym (in the XNUMXth century it has already become an anachronism in new realities, and is being supplanted by new terms not tied to ethnicity - antes and sklavens). And because this ethnonym is consonant with the Vandals, I suppose that they were a force that at one time dominated over these tribes, or that all these were tribes related to the Vandals.

                Your point of view is a bit like the late Kolomiytsev


                Now for the first time I hear from you about Kolomiytsev. What is his work called? Interesting to see. My point of view is closer (but not identical) tz. Florin Kurty. I know that Russian-speaking "officials" are skeptical towards him for obvious reasons. However, Kurta has more of the same "official" regalia than most of his critics.

                In your concept, I never saw why the traditional point of view is so bad that it is completely rejected


                The traditional point of view is bad in using the term "Slavs" as an ethnonym. Not only is this an incorrect interpretation of it, this incorrect interpretation of the term "Slavs" has far-reaching consequences. Vandals - who are they? Germans. But they were called "Slavs". Why? And why is it so derogatory? But because the term "Slavs" is pure politics. He was then politics and remains her now. And at present, the identification of Russians as "Slavs", in addition to insulting the people, is also cementing the identity of the Russian Federation as an eternal 2nd world through the schemes "There is European civilization, and there are" Slavs ", savages from dugouts in the middle of the Pripyat bogs (!) With molded ceramics ". This is the identification of Russians as a people opposing civilization.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 13 July 2021 17: 21
                  +2
                  The book says so. Clear. You have a rather inquisitive mind. Are you satisfied with this explanation yourself?

                  I don't like any theory 100 percent. But I don't like some theories more than others.
                  I don't like your theory because
                  1. Explicitly smacks of conspiracy theory. Where there is talk about "historians are hiding" history itself, there is usually nothing to do.
                  2. Selective use of data from "traditional history" which is used to refute it. This is the second wake-up call.

                  The earliest mention of the early Slavs in the form of "Sklavina" is in Procopius. BUT.
                  This is not overwhelming. On the contrary, he writes about sklavins and antes not without some sympathy. I don't see any politics in this.

                  Now for the first time I hear from you about Kolomiytsev

                  https://historylib.org/historybooks/Igor-Kolomiytsev_Narod-nevidimka/
                  and other works
                  My point of view is closer (but not identical) tz. Florin Kurty. I know that the Russian-speaking "officials" are skeptical towards him for obvious reasons. However, Kurta has more of the same "official" regalia than most of his critics.

                  I have Kurta's book The making of Slavs, but alas, only half. I cannot evaluate the hypothesis. She is in the second half)

                  Here is Kurt
                  No "Slavs" called themselves by this name. The creation of the Slavs was the result not so much of ethnogenesis as of invention, invention and labeling by Byzantine authors. It was an identity that took shape in the shadow of Justinian's fortresses.

                  One does not interfere. The Slavs could well wear a generalizing nickname, perhaps even unflattering, like the same Gepids. So what?
                  How does this prevent them from being a cultural, linguistic and, God forgive me, genetic community clearly different from the Germans?
                  The Slavic language is not derived from Germanic. At all. And he also does not look like pidgin, if only because of the complex grammar, even in the archaic version. 8 cases versus Germanic four. Pigeon is always primitive.
                  I have already written about the archaeological differences.

                  The traditional point of view is bad at using t
                  Yermina "Slavs" as an ethnonym. Not only is this an incorrect interpretation of it, this incorrect interpretation of the term "Slavs" has far-reaching consequences. Vandals - who are they? Germans. But they were called "Slavs". Why? And why is it so derogatory? But because the term "Slavs" is pure politics. He was then politics and remains her now. And at present, the identification of Russians as "Slavs", in addition to insulting the people, is also cementing the identity of the Russian Federation as an eternal 2nd world through the schemes "There is European civilization, and there are" Slavs ", savages from dugouts in the middle of the Pripyat bogs (!) With molded ceramics ". This is the identification of Russians as a people opposed to civilization.

                  I do not like the Slavs - the Slavs - slaves, well, take the Slavs - Slovenes - a word (people of the same word, language, those who understand each other, etc.), It is quite an academic version.

                  I'm confused. What Germans were called Slavs?
                  Who, then, are the Veneti of Jordan? Germans too? But others, not vandals? Are they related or not? Why is the term Veneti already anachronistic in the 6th century if it outlived the term antes?
                  Viking Age Veneds are Vandals?
                  Jordan clearly said that the vandals had left the Baltic Sea coast. Did he lie?
                  1. Force multiplier
                    Force multiplier 13 July 2021 19: 18
                    0
                    talk about "historians hide" history itself usually has nothing to do


                    The conversations are not about hiding, but about what the "historians" have taken that the Prague culture is "Slavic". On what grounds? And if it turns out that the only answer is "because", then there is no truth here, and in order to find it, one must look for a motive. After all, "history itself" does not exist in the ivory tower. History is always written in the interests of others. It's good if this is the interest of your state or people. But why support someone else's, hostile narrative about the "Slavs"

                    The earliest mention of the early Slavs in the form of "Sklavina" is in Procopius


                    Jordan used to be. The term "Sklaviny" is not an ethnonym.

                    https://historylib.org/historybooks/Igor-Kolomiytsev_Narod-nevidimka/
                    and other works


                    Thank you!

                    How does this prevent them from being a cultural, linguistic and, God forgive me, genetic community clearly different from the Germans?


                    The "Slavs" are not such a community. There is no single "Slavic" culture and traditions. In all "Slavic" countries they invented their own. Ridiculously, there is no single "Slavic" pantheon, each Czechoslovakia invented their own gods. And, moreover, genetically, the "Slavs" were not and are not a separate community, for example, the "South Slavs" are genetically different from the "Western" ones. This is a visually different phenotype and different minor races. And this is natural, because the Sarmatians and Türks (the so-called "South Slavs") are genetically different from the Germans (the so-called "Western Slavs").
                    Language is an artificial Church Slavonic language that appeared in the XNUMXth century and was implanted by the church. But the Senegalese are not Gauls or Latins. So it is here. And a closer example. Goths and Vandals in Vost. and Center. Europe switched to Church Slavonic. The Goths and Vandals in Spain switched to Latin. In both cases, the change in language contributed to the loss of identity.

                    Slavic language is not derived from Germanic


                    A mixture of Germanic with Greek and Latin

                    he also does not look like pidgin, if only because of the complex grammar, even in the archaic version


                    Evidence that Church-Slav. language is artificially created. Pidgin because of a small vocabulary. Slightly away from the ceremonial vocabulary, and all sorts of "dolls", "flies", "cry", and other "cucumbers"

                    I do not like the Slavs - the Slavs - slaves, well, take the Slavs - Slovenes - a word (people of the same word, language, those who understand each other, etc.), It is quite an academic version


                    The point is not like or dislike, but that Sklavins = slaves. The fact that an academic version of consolation has been invented for the aborigines is a mockery. All European languages ​​are "slaves", but you are proud of your "glory". "Slavic" identity is an absolutely artificial construct, and it was not created in the interests of the peoples who were referred to as "Slavs".

                    I'm confused. What Germans were called Slavs?
                    Who, then, are the Veneti of Jordan? Germans too? But others, not vandals? Are they related or not? Why is the term Veneti already anachronistic in the 6th century if it outlived the term antes?
                    Viking Age Veneds are Vandals?
                    Jordan clearly said that the vandals had left the Baltic Sea coast. Did he lie?


                    The Vandals were called "Slavs. This is also in the text of the article. The Goths were also called" Slavs "until the middle of the XNUMXth century. And then the concept changed. One conspiracy theory. The Venets of Jordan are either tribes related to the Vandals, or dependent (possibly both These are Germans, but not during the time of Jordan. The term Veneta, which was an ethnonym, became an anachronism by the time of Jordan because the VPN changed the ethnic composition of the population of central and eastern Europe. The term remained, but lost its ethnic meaning, and nevertheless continued to be used to denote population of the territory from the quotation The term "anty" did not survive the extinction of the limes, it is obvious here.
                    The Wends of the Sound are the Vandals. Wends (Wends) of Fredegar, also Germans who fell under the rule of Avars. Vandals or not? Yes, either the Vandals or related tribes.
                    Jordan said that the Vandals came from the Ocean to "our borders" throughout the year, that is, they covered the distance, seized the territory (+ to the Veneta version = tribes under the influence of the Vandals) and not that they left the coast
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 13 July 2021 19: 57
                      0
                      The conversations are not about hiding, but about what the "historians" have taken from which the Prague culture is "Slavic". On what grounds?

                      I have listed the archaeological markers of Slavic cultures above. These are the summaries of research.
                      Prague culture carries these markers, the cultures that replace it bear these features. Cultures preceding it have these features. What more could you want?

                      Language is an artificial Church Slavonic language that appeared in the XNUMXth century and was implanted by the church.

                      This is out of the question. The distribution area is too large. The new language is not able to replace the old ones entirely. They would have been traceable. But this is not. The Senegalese have retained their old languages.
                      Language cannot be created at all by 12th century technology. And most importantly why? Use Greek or Latin. Speak as you want at home. Moreover, it is impossible to impose complicated language

                      Jordan used to be. The term "Sklaviny" is not an ethnonym.

                      Procopius before. Check it out. Jordan wrote about more ancient times, but "Wars" by Procopius is older than "Getica"
                      I did not write that the "Sklavins" are an ethnonym. They appear like this in Procopius. It is not easy to say what lies behind this. But certainly not contempt.
                      Jordan said that the Vandals came from the Ocean to "our borders" throughout the year, that is, they covered the distance, seized the territory (+ to the Veneta version = tribes under the influence of the Vandals) and not that they left the coast

                      They did not come and did not capture. They are fled from ready. There is no evidence that at least someone remained.
                      When the Vandals lived here, Geberich, the king of the Goths, began a war with them on the banks of the aforementioned river Marisia; they fought briefly with equal success, but soon the Vandal king Vizimar with most of his tribe was destroyed. {115} Geberich, the outstanding leader of the Goths, after defeating the vandals and seizing the spoils, returned to their places from where he came out. Then a small group of vandals who fled gathered a detachment of their incapacitated [fellow tribesmen] and left the unhappy country; from the emperor Constantine 362 they asked for Pannonia for themselves and, having established villages there, served as local residents under imperial decrees for about 60 years.


                      The assertion that the Veneti were in some form of dependence, under the influence of vandals, is not confirmed in any way. They, apparently, were not even neighbors, because at first the Vandals were crushed by the Goths, then a long list of tribes (Golskyths, Mordens, etc.), then Heruli, and only then the Veneti.

                      You are doing everything just not to admit that the Slavs are an objective entity. You do not like the etymology of Slavs-slaves, well, no one supports this theory. The etymology of the Slavs is a word in all variants at your service.
                      Don't like the Pripyat hypothesis? Study Wislo-Oder. No problems.

                      "Slavic" identity is an absolutely artificial construct, and it was not created in the interests of the peoples who were referred to as "Slavs".

                      Who needs it? And even in ancient-early medieval times? And then maintain such crap for centuries. This is a conspiracy theory in its purest form.
                      1. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 13 July 2021 21: 25
                        0
                        I have listed the archaeological markers of Slavic cultures above


                        On the example of the Wends, we saw that everything is not so simple and the "Slavic" cultures are different, the markers are different.

                        The distribution area is too large.

                        Surprisingly coinciding with the area of ​​spread of Orthodoxy

                        The new language is not able to replace the old ones entirely. They would be traceable

                        In Spain, Gothic and Vandalsky are not traced. In Russia, Poland and Ukraine, the connection with the Germanic languages ​​is quite traced, and this cannot be explained by later borrowings, the connection in the basic vocabulary

                        Language cannot be created at all by 12th century technology. And most importantly why? Use Greek or Latin. Speak as you want at home. Moreover, a complicated language cannot be imposed

                        To create a new golem community. The empire hated Goths, Vandals, Svevi, etc. And she wanted to erase their identity and subdue, but not assimilate. So, so as not to consider them equal, not to consider the peoples of the empire (Greek and Latin). The imposition of gibberish through the Holy Scripture is an ideal tool that does not require special technology. "Barbarian" "Slavic" church of the second grade with its own language of worship. The method was tested on Arianism 500 years before Cyril and Methodius. The Orthodox Empire died and the second grade became the first (nominally).

                        "Wars" by Procopius older than "Getica"

                        Not. Getika ends chronologically before the "War with the Vandals"

                        They did not come and did not capture. They fled from the Goths. There is no evidence that at least someone remained


                        Not. That was later. I'm talking about another passage, chronologically earlier
                        Geberich [went] against their king Vizimar. The latter came from the Asting generation, different among them [the vandals] and showing themselves as the most belligerent family. So says the historian Deuxippus, who also testifies that they [vandals] in just one year came from the ocean to our borders, despite the huge length of [intermediate] lands

                        You do everything just not to admit that the Slavs are an objective entity


                        In what way is this "objective essence" expressed? Data from written sources? Not. Archeology? Not. Material culture? Not. Pantheon? Folklore? No and no. Language is a pijdin imposed by the church. And the linguistic community is not identical to the ethnic and cultural community (Senegalese and Aztecs are not Latins)

                        Who needs it? And even in ancient-early medieval times?


                        There are peoples descending from the Germanic gods, which is reflected in their self-names (Goths. Vandals). And there is a church that claims to be universal and has the resources of a world empire at its disposal.

                        This is a conspiracy theory in its purest form.

                        A conspiracy in its pure form also occurs among the vegetable merchants on the collective farm market. It is somehow too naive to assume the fundamental impossibility of a conspiracy among the "elites". I have already given examples of how the identity of peoples was changed. For Jordan, the "Sklavins" are despicable Venets. And for historians of the 18th century Gotha is quite a "Slavs". Such is the conspiracy theory
                      2. Force multiplier
                        Force multiplier 14 July 2021 00: 31
                        0
                        Getika ends chronologically before the "War with the Vandals"

                        until the end of the "war with the Goths"
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 12: 13
    +3
    They confirm the words of Procopius

    I can also confirm his words. Or refute. I lived with him in the same era ...

    Then the difference in material culture cannot be explained. And it is recorded very clearly

    It is also very clearly possible to fix the differences in the material culture of our country before 1991 and after it. Until 1991 I had a Rubin TV, and after that I had a Grundig. Until 1991 I drove a Moskvich, and after that I drove a Ford. Should I continue?
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 July 2021 12: 15
      +3
      I can also confirm his words. Or refute. I lived with him in the same era ...

      After such a statement, let me question your cognitive abilities.
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 12: 17
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    After such a statement, let me question your cognitive abilities.

    With these very abilities, I'm fine - I'm an engineer ...
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 July 2021 12: 21
      +2
      Bar1 is also an engineer. And I am also sure that everything is all right with him.
      1. Xlor
        Xlor 13 July 2021 13: 34
        0
        Commas are not your strong point. However, like history ...
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 13 July 2021 18: 51
          +1
          Alans participated in ethnogиnot Ossetians

          Everyone has their own shortcomings)
          1. Xlor
            Xlor 13 July 2021 19: 29
            -1
            You have already proved your mental abilities not only to me, but to absolutely everyone present! I am pleased that you are so interested in my spelling ...
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 13 July 2021 20: 03
              +2
              ... I lived with him in the same era ...

              Since we lived in the same era with Procopius, say hello to the brow if you see each other. He's a great writer
  • Cure72
    Cure72 13 July 2021 12: 18
    +5
    Thank you Valery for the interesting article. Since school days, all these vandals / goths and other gunas have mixed in memory into a single mass. That destroyed Rome repeat
    Special thanks to the forum users for the additions!
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 13 July 2021 13: 18
    +3
    Valery, as always, acts as a subverter of historical stereotypes. smile Oddly enough, today I agree with him - to become a household name along with vandals, many other conquering nations are equally worthy. Especially as contenders for the role of vandals, I like Avars. What would we call vandalism, but a derivative of the Avars? Avarism? Or maybe the accident rate? smile Huns would be good too: "Hunnism" also sounds great. smile
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 13 July 2021 14: 08
      +2
      Avars from a military point of view, kulturtragera for the Germans and Byzantines)
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 13 July 2021 15: 02
        +2
        "Kulturtragers" in the sense of "teacher"? Do you mean the stirrup? smile
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 13 July 2021 16: 45
          +4
          In general, the concept of an armed equestrian warrior armed with a bow and spear and capable of fighting both at a distance and in close combat. Mauritius even has an Avar horseman's cloak.
          There is a grave of a warrior in Hungary in Avar armor and with an Avar bow. And only on the basis of paired finger fibulae his ethnicity was determined with a high degree of probability - Gepid
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 13 July 2021 17: 21
            +2
            Quote: Engineer
            In general, the concept of an armed equestrian warrior armed with a bow and spear and capable of fighting both at a distance and in close combat.

            But the Sarmatians could also conduct archery, spear and close combat. hi
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 13 July 2021 17: 24
              +2
              Effectively most likely not. The emphasis was on hand-to-hand combat. Not generalists. More precisely archers separately, heavily armed separately. The equestrian spearman could have a bow, but as a secondary weapon, even a third-rate weapon.

              The generalists were apparently the Kangyuys, judging by the Orlat plate. But they did not reach Europe and did not show the master class.
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 13 July 2021 18: 59
            +2
            If I mean the concept of universalism, then, as far as I understand, it was not perceived in Europe, except perhaps in Russia, whose squads had to deal with nomads and European heavy cavalry on an ongoing basis, and I'm not sure.
            The Avars brought the stirrup to Europe - I seem to remember that. From them, Byzantium took over the stirrup, and the rest of the stage. The appearance of an aspiration on the European arena, of course, changed the tactics of equestrian combat and the Avars cannot be denied this, but it was the concept of universalism and it was precisely in Europe that they could not bring, in my opinion. Perhaps, in Byzantium, the Avar style of horse fighting was taken deeper, but not in Europe.
            Yes, to be honest, I am not sure that the Avars themselves fully professed this concept - after all, spear and bow fighting imply different equipment, in particular, the design of the saddle. From the point of view of expediency, it is much more practical to have various units of heavy and light cavalry - it is easier for light cavalry to get away from the attack, maintaining a distance or pursuing, heavy cavalry with its ramming strike is not so maneuverable, but it, in fact, does not need it.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 13 July 2021 19: 18
              +2
              If we mean the concept of universalism, then, as far as I understand, it was never perceived in Europe.


              It was accepted in Byzantium.

              2. How to equip an equestrian stratiote and what should be purchased as needed
              When the necessary individual training is completed, the stratiots should be armed with their own archons, [6] and during their stay in winter quarters everything that is necessary to support a military campaign should be prepared. It is necessary for all, in accordance with their military specialization and established monetary allowance, primarily the archons of measures, peace and tagm, [7] hecatontarchs, decarchs, pentarchs and tetrarchs, [8] bucellarii [9] and federates [10] have the following: full length carapaces [11] to the ankles with hoods, [12] lifted with belts and rings, [13] with their cases; helmets [14] with small sultans [15] at the top; bows according to the strength of each, [16] but not over and above this, but better - even weaker ones, together with wide plots, so that at the right time it was possible to put the drawn bows into them; in the pockets of the bowstrings - a large number of bowstrings; quivers with lids, capable of holding from 30 to 40 arrows; in the bands of bows - files and awls, [17] cavalry spears of the Avar [18] type with flamules, [19] having a belt in the middle of the shaft; swords; round neck guards of the Avar type with a hanging fringe, linen outside, woolen inside.


              Partially accepted in Europe. See Lombard lamellar armor and bow spread for some time now.

              Yes, to be honest, I am not sure that the Avars themselves fully professed this concept - after all, spear and bow fighting imply different equipment, in particular, the design of the saddle.


              They are armed with shells, swords, bows and spears, while many of them use double weapons in battles: carrying spears over their shoulders and holding bows in their hands, they use them alternately, as the need arises. Not only they themselves have protective equipment, but the horses of their nobility have front protection made of iron or felt. Possesses good skills in horse archery.


              The role of saddle design seems to be exaggerated. I wrote about this. For archery, it is better to have a shallow rear bow, but this is only for backward shooting.
              The difference in equipment is primarily a shield. But then the horsemen did not have / had little of it.

              From the point of view of expediency, it is much more practical to have various units of heavy and light cavalry - it is easier for light cavalry to get away from the attack, maintaining a distance or pursuing, heavy cavalry with its ramming strike is not so maneuverable, but it, in fact, does not need it.


              Everything is debatable. The fairly uniform and versatile cavalry provides unprecedented tactical opportunities. She suppresses shooters with a simple number in small arms combat, shoots spearmen at a rapprochement before a hand-to-hand fight.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 13 July 2021 21: 25
                +1
                Quote: Engineer
                homogeneous all-round cavalry provides unprecedented tactical opportunities.

                Only if there is a lot of such cavalry. And there cannot be much of it due to the high cost of its preparation both in the material sense and in the sense of training. Among the Mongols, the ratio of light and heavy cavalry was 1:10, could it be different for the Avars?
                Either we are talking about elite cavalry units against the background of the usual nomadic cavalry, and then we forget about the mass scale and additional tactical capabilities, and also we are faced with the lack of the need to train spear riflemen instead of just spearmen, or we need to assume that the Avars had some unknown capabilities on the allocation of a significant number of adult men from their economy for their training and use for exclusively military purposes, as well as some unattainable opportunities for other contemporaries to equip them.
                Regarding Byzantium, I am ready to agree - the Byzantine Empire at that time was probably the only state that could afford such luxury as spear-arrows in any marketable quantity. But not nomads or European barbarians.
                However, in any case, thanks for the quotes and clarifications. hi
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 13 July 2021 21: 50
                  +2
                  Can
                  then the Avars had some unknown to us opportunities to isolate a significant number of adult men from their economy for their training and use for exclusively military purposes, as well as some possibilities of equipping them unattainable for other contemporaries.


                  Especially for Vaschenko, I found the original of Menander at one time. There were 60 thousand Θωρακοφορων - "armed" horsemen. Even the Byzantines were shocked by such opportunities. Of course, it was not without exaggeration, but nevertheless.

                  Avars are total confinement to war. All men are warriors. The shepherds are from the dependent tribes of the Bulgarians. smelting iron - Gepids and Slavs. Avars at the top of the food chain. They fight and own.
                  There are analogies - the Turks were servants - the blacksmiths of the Zhuzhan people. And the Avars are most likely the Zhuzhani. New landscape, old habits.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 13 July 2021 22: 45
                    +1
                    It seems that if the Avars in the VI - VIII centuries. could put even at least ten thousand armed horsemen on the battlefield at a time, the tail of this column in a couple of years, or even earlier, would have been seen near Gibraltar. smile
                    With the same "food chains", Europe reached such a scale in mobilization the earliest in the era of Charlemagne, and even he could hardly have deployed such an army at the same time.
                    I will not bother with the discussion, but you have not dispelled my doubts. smile
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 13 July 2021 23: 08
                      +1
                      The dispute was not originally about numbers. This is the second aspect and generally a separate topic.
                      Here is the point of controversy
                      that the Avars had some unknown to us opportunities to extract from their economy a significant number of adult men for their training and use for exclusively military purposes,

                      The answer was they had. Famous.
                      Every year the Huns spend the winter with the Slavs, sleep with their wives and children, and in addition the Slavs pay tribute and endure many other hardships.

                      The economic aspect is quite clear. Train to the point even in shooting
                      even with a spear, even with both. The basis allows.

                      By the way, learning to wield a spear on horseback is much easier than equestrian archery. Reenactors will confirm
                      I did not understand at all where the problem of the complexity of preparing the station wagon came from. If you know how to shoot from a horse, you will learn how to poke a spear without any problems.
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 14 July 2021 00: 17
                        +1
                        I didn't argue at all. I do not have an established point of view on this issue. So, I expressed my doubts.
                        The main reasons for doubt, if you summarize my reflections, are as follows.
                        Universal warriors are good, but expensive. In the entire history of the Middle Ages, only a few managed to collect a decent amount of them (at least ten thousand, then I will keep in mind this particular figure, well, give or take), and only in the later periods of this very Middle Ages - centuries that way since the XIV. Despite population growth and increased exploitation. It is unlikely that the Avars could, on the economic basis that they had, collect such a mass of professional and well-equipped fighters. And if they could, then why, for five hundred years after them, no one else could, is incomprehensible.
                        Horse spearmen in small numbers are impractical, and in large numbers - too formidable force, which hardly anyone could have opposed something at that time. However, we do not see any grandiose accomplishments on the part of the Avars. The Huns, perhaps, performed more effectively.
                        Conclusion - equestrian generalists were few in number and did not have a significant impact on the course of hostilities, although they showed themselves from the best side, as evidenced by Byzantine borrowings.
                        The contribution of the Avars to the military art of Europe is most likely limited to stirrups, which in itself is very, very large.
                        I'm not ready to operate with specific numbers, but let's say the same amount of money goes to the preparation of one station wagon, so much goes to the training of five mounted riflemen, although, I think, in fact, the numbers are much more impressive. Let's say five. Two hundred station wagons against a thousand shooters. A thousand against five thousand. I don't know, I would bet on the shooters.
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 13 July 2021 18: 30
    +2
    Quote: Bolt Cutter
    we do not sit at the table with gin and tonic, long drinks are still not very popular in the Russian feast.
    One hope for hipster bars wassat Although it is possible that in the near future I will check the Russian market for the demand for gin.

    Have you ever tried the Stark thread? A mixture of vodka, cognac and port, infused on apple and pear leaves - where are the gins! drinks
  • Xlor
    Xlor 13 July 2021 20: 19
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    He is a great writer

    He collected scraps from the master's table and wrote what they wanted from him. Just like today's magazines
  • faterdom
    faterdom 13 July 2021 21: 25
    +3
    The Vandals, whom other peoples gradually pushed through the whole of Europe and pushed out to Africa, eventually became the cause of the final fall of the Western Roman Empire.
    Having captured the provinces of Africa, they deprived the ZRI of a very significant part of income and food, as a result of which it very soon could not support the minimum number of legions required for its preservation. Many of them simply assimilated or became the basis of the troops of the new states, after years and decades of non-payment of salaries.
    This was a big problem, and the Western Empire, together with the Eastern, tried to solve it by bringing together a united fleet and army, but, having suffered a disaster in this venture. The next expedition was being prepared, but the Eastern Empire was forced to split all its forces into the Persian front and the problem with the Huns, they returned to Carthage only under Justinian. The Western empire, on the other hand, disintegrated for good during this period.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 13 July 2021 23: 11
    0
    Quote: Xlor
    History is an interesting "science". German scientists say that the Vandals are Slavs. Our scientists are Germans. Now, thank God, they agreed that they were still Germans ...
    PS The word "science", when I spoke about history, I put in quotes is not accidental ...
    PS Andalusia from vandals - Vandalusia. Catalonia from the Goths and Alans - Goto-Alania ...

    History is not science.
  • Xlor
    Xlor 14 July 2021 02: 52
    0
    Quote: Pavel57
    History is not science.

    ... but a point of view!
  • wow
    wow 14 July 2021 16: 38
    -1
    Yes-ah-ah, those were dark times, very good. dark! It is interesting to dig into the annals of history. Although is it necessary? What was - that was, and this can no longer be changed. In general, history is a more exact science than, for example, mathematics, there is no "if" assumption in it. It was, what was and not otherwise.
  • Xlor
    Xlor 14 July 2021 18: 25
    -1
    Quote: yo-mine
    In general, history is a more exact science than, for example, mathematics.

    Laughed long and cheerfully! laughing
  • alexandr_vd
    alexandr_vd 25 July 2021 14: 08
    0
    Some kind of leapfrog! The death of a great empire ...
    According to Gumilev - the decline of the passionarity of the Romans and their conquest by their neighbors simultaneously with "degeneration".