Powerful efficient small multipurpose corvette at the price of a fighter flight

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Photo: Rosoboronexport

On May 17, 2018, the lead small missile ship "Uragan" of project 22800 (code "Karakurt"), built at JSC "Leningrad Shipyard" Pella ", entered the factory sea trials.

"The unseen happens"


The timing of the creation of MRK pr. 22800 turned out to be significantly shorter than those for its predecessor - MRK pr. 1234 during the Soviet era (and this with many big technical and organizational problems of "modern times").




From the article by the chief designer of the MRK pr. 22800 D. Tsymlyakov "Small missile ships of the project 22800" Karakurt "will join the Russian Navy" ("Morskoy Vestnik" No. 4, 2018):

Active work on project 22800 has begun in April 2015 An abbreviated technical design was prepared within a month and a half ... The technical design was completed by November 2015: shipyard "Pella" was issued hull drawings of embedded sections. And on December 25, 2015, the head IRC "Uragan" was laid ... From the moment the decision was made to start the construction of these ships until the launch of the lead tests, only three years passed. This is taking into account that the Pella shipbuilders had no experience in building warships before. So this is a kind of record in the field of modern domestic military shipbuilding ... The peculiarity of the project was that during the creation of the lead ship, no accompanying experimental design work (R&D) was carried out. In order to speed up the process of creating RTOs, the customers set the task to use only serial samples mastered by the industry. We used only what has letters or was created according to the already completed design work of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia. Thanks to this, the construction of new ships was started and mastered by the industry as soon as possible.

Of course, this was a feat of the developers of the Almaz Central Design Bureau and the builders of the Pella plant:

Such tight deadlines were made possible thanks to the well-coordinated work of the General Staff of the Navy, the Department of State Defense Order of the Ministry of Defense, the research department of the Navy, the design bureau - Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau, the construction plant - JSC Leningrad Shipyard Pella and numerous organizations involved in the process of creating the lead ship.

- as they say, we can, whenever we want (and when the work goes to the result, and not to the "process").

As a result (portal Shipbuilding on September 18, 2018):

TsMKB "Almaz" and the plant "Pella" proved that it is possible to create a battleship quickly and inexpensively ... The ship turned out to be inexpensive in comparison with what the fleet builds. The cost turned out to be much less than 10 billion rubles.

Briefly on the head.

In a short time, an inexpensive high-speed seagoing ship was created to replace the MRK of project 1234 (project 1234 had planing contours, which significantly limited seaworthiness and speed in developed waves) with powerful shock weapons (8 units: Caliber, Turquoise, Onyx ", In the future -" Zircon ") with a domestic power plant based on the project 1234 (disruption of the rate of serial production of which was the only problem of the series).

These are the pros.

Now for the problematic questions.

Artillery (76 mm and two 30 mm) is too small for effective air defense, that is, the ship's air defense clearly required reinforcement.

However, the main thing was the narrow target designation of the ship (strike ship), which was, of course, a serious mistake of the naval structures that developed the tactical and technical assignment (TTZ) for the ship. As will be shown below, for a slightly higher price, the Navy could well have received effective and balanced multipurpose small corvettes OVR, and immediately.

Basic variant (with ZRAK "Pantsir-M")


To strengthen the air defense of the MRK, the customer decided to install the Pantsir-M ZRAK (developed by the KBP in Tula) on the MRK project 22800, and not only with the firing module, but also the command module - with the AFAR “tower” of the S- range (development of TsKBA, Tula).


It is worth noting that the "tower" AFAR from TsKBA earned almost immediately and very well (in contrast to the "toothache" of the Navy - the "golden (in value) tower" of the MF-RLK "Zaslon"), however, it is not quite optimal for the sea S -range (which, however, is compensated by the ability to work on low-flying targets of the KRO target designation radar - that is, what is implemented in a number of Western and Chinese (pr. 056, 054) ships).

However, here very bad questions arise about the "firing unit" of "Pantsir-M", with its millimeter range of firing radar. Obviously, a tough decision is needed to switch to at least a 2-cm range (with a corresponding loss in the range of destruction of targets of the "booster scheme" radio command missile defense system). But so far we have what we have ...


The weather is normal for the conditions of the Russian Navy, but "Pantsir" is practically "zeroed" under it.

Thus, the installation of the Pantsir-M ZRAK on the project 22800 MRK, of course, significantly strengthened its air defense, but for bad weather conditions the ship has only a medium-caliber gun mount AK-176MA with the Bagheera fire control system. In no case can such a situation be considered normal.

"Super-Karakurt"


In December 2019, at the demonstration of modern naval equipment to the President of the Russian Federation in Sevastopol, a model of the multipurpose MRK "Karakurt" with significantly enhanced weapons: "doubled" for strike missiles, the "Redut" air defense system and anti-submarine / anti-torpedo "Packet-NK" on stern.


At first glance, this is exactly what the Navy needs, however:

- there is no towed GAS (BUGAS), respectively - the search performance is deliberately unsatisfactory;

- SAM ammunition is obviously insufficient, and KR (anti-ship missiles) is excessive;

- a significantly increased displacement requires a completely new power plant (obviously, with a combined diesel-gas turbine unit based on M70FRU-R reversible gas turbine engines manufactured by UEC-Saturn PJSC).

The main thing is that the "OVR corvette" should be "optimally cheap" (more on this below) to ensure its mass construction, but for this "Super Karakurt" is far from optimal.

However, it should be noted that at the show in Sevastopol the number of launching "Calibers" was "sauce", which they tried to "fill" with obvious bad questions on a number of projects (this is a frankly spoiled "Cheetah" with 16 UKSK, which received extremely unbalanced weapons, and a project 20386, where even Reduta launchers were issued to the president for the "Caliber"). Actually, this exhibition itself showed not only the absence of even the minimal common sense of the military-technical policy pursued by the Russian Navy, but also the kind of “curve” and deliberately false information the President of the Russian Federation receives in his reports.

We need a multipurpose option with optimization according to the criterion "efficiency-cost" at the level of grouping of forces in the region!


The key issue of the OVR corvette is to ensure effective anti-submarine search (the necessary search performance and the size of the zone of simultaneous "illumination" of the underwater situation).

Taking into account, as a rule, the zonal (including the presence of zones of "acoustic shadow") structure of the acoustic field, this requires the presence of the necessary (significant) number of carriers of the search means, optimally distributed in the area.


At the same time, in order to ensure a moderate cost and large (necessary) serial production, the range requirements for the GAS can be limited: for the under-keel GAS - to the first shadow zone, and BUGAS - to the first DZAO (the latter, among other things, provides long detection ranges in the conditions of a continuous acoustic zone. illumination - as, for example, in winter off the coast of Kamchatka).

This approach has been implemented, for example, in a number of Actas GASs (domestic analogues of which are Platina-M and Minotavr).


Note. The mass of the domestic BUGAS "Vignette-EM" (export modification of the "Minotavr") is 8,5 tons - for the launching device, 1,2 tons - for the outboard part (with the length of the active part of the GPBA 11,5 m) and hardware - 1,4 t.

The question arises - is it possible to place the BUGAS "Minotavr" on a small corvette based on Project 22800 (without significantly changing its dimensions)? And the obvious answer is yes.


Also extremely useful (especially for difficult hydrological conditions) is the possibility of placing a lowered GAS (OGAS) on the foot, which was widely and very effectively used by the USSR Navy.


For "Karakurt" OGAS is also valuable as an effective means of targeting for the use of PLUR "Answer" - since the accuracy of direction finding at heading angles other than traverse angles is insufficient for BGAS with GPBA.

It is also worth noting the absence in the Russian Federation of special towed and lowered GAS designed to solve the problems of ASW and anti-submarine sabotage defense (PPDO) at shallow depths, despite the fact that in the west there are a number of interesting and effective models.


The compactness of such a BUGAS makes it possible to place it even on serial Project 22800 ships and, moreover, it is BUGAS that is the most optimal means of targeting anti-torpedoes.

Small corvettes and helicopters


The main disadvantage of small corvettes (which largely influenced the unreasonable refusal to build them in the 2000s in the Navy) is the impossibility not only of basing helicopters, but also often the possibility of their takeoff and landing on a ship. At the same time, the helicopter was declared as a mandatory accessory to the ship. The problem, however, is not only that the Russian Navy never received a full-fledged multipurpose shipborne helicopter, but also that those helicopters that acquired our corvettes (project 20380) received an extremely meager and weak modernization (Ka-27M) and are ineffective in solving PLO problems. Taking this factor into account, the absence of PLUR corvettes in ammunition turned our ships, in fact, into "game" for "hunters" - enemy submarines.

Yes, a group of modern helicopters can quickly "cover" a very large area of ​​search for submarines. However, the high cost of such a search and resource constraints (including the number of buoys) impose significant restrictions. A long search is something where ships are definitely superior to helicopters. Accordingly, their interaction will be the most effective.

Meanwhile, for a small corvette operating in the near sea zone, a helicopter can fly from the shore. And the really serious problem is the time of his work at sea. Moreover, effective solutions to this problem in the west appeared back in the 70s - providing refueling of a helicopter hanging in the air from a ship. It is very important here that this operation can be safely carried out with much greater excitement than helicopter takeoff and landing operations on a ship.


In other words, if there is a possibility of refueling (for example, from a removable modular tank with kerosene on a corvette), the joint operation of small ships and helicopters may well be ensured. Moreover, according to the criterion "efficiency-cost" it will be even more practical solution (rather than several "large corvettes with ship helicopters") due to the increased number of BUGAS small corvettes (and more and better "coverage" of the search area by them).

Moreover, if necessary, not only consumable search means (buoys), but also such means of destruction as anti-submarine bombs, including homing bombs ("Zagon"), can be fed from the corvette to the hanging helicopter. The capabilities of helicopter winches provide this quite well.

Obviously, in this case, it is advisable to work jointly between the SAC of corvettes and the helicopter search facilities (OGAS and RGAB) as a single multi-position search system.

In addition, a certain "helicopter substitute" for solving multipurpose missions for small combat ships can be an onboard seagoing boat, when equipped with a different target load (both in manned and unmanned versions). This is especially important in everyday conditions of service in modern conditions, including when solving problems of rescue at sea and interception (verification) of other ships.

Taking into account the limited number of the crew of a small corvette, one seagoing boat (5-7,5 meters long) and a reserve inflatable boat (in case the main boat is used in an unmanned (BEC) version) seems to be the optimal boat armament. At the same time, it is extremely important to install a modern launching device (SPU) of the boat, which ensures its use on the move and in stormy conditions. Taking into account the significant mass of such an SPU, it together with the boat represents a single complex, accordingly, with strict weight restrictions, it is better to put a smaller boat, but with an SPU that ensures its use in stormy conditions than a large boat, but use (lower and raise ) which is possible only with minimal excitement.

The use of a seaworthy BEC allows both to significantly increase the effectiveness of solving PLO problems - by placing additional search means or sources of low-frequency acoustic illumination of the water area, and the effectiveness of electronic warfare - due to the removal from the board of the withdrawal complexes of attacking weapons.

Optimal look


As noted above, for maximum effectiveness of the grouping of ASW forces (taking into account limited resources), the maximum possible number of carriers of effective means of detecting and destroying submarines is required. For this series of ships, for this purpose, obviously, a limitation of their cost is required.

Air defense plays an extremely important role here.

Even the Second World War showed that for ships "there is no such thing as too much air defense." Taking into account the impact capabilities aviation, the task of creating an effective air defense of a small ship is not quite trivial. However, it can really be solved.

Medium caliber artillery continues to be a necessary element of ship armament. The high efficiency of domestic medium-caliber artillery was shown by the firing of corvettes 100-mm A-190-01 (including the shooting down of anti-ship missiles at a distance of 7 km), and the MRK project 22800 (76-mm AK-176MA).

"Metal cutter" AK-630M is not only "weapons last line ", but also another channel of destruction of targets.

Nevertheless, the air defense system is obviously necessary, and multi-channel and all-weather. According to the "Shell" it is written above.

SAM "Redut" (and its export version "Resource") have highly effective, but very expensive missiles with ARGSN, but the main problem is that homing missiles without telecontrol in a "dense raid" (for example, a salvo of anti-ship missiles) do not provide reliable shelling of all assigned targets (random target distribution is obtained - both by targets and by debris).

"Sea Tor" - the work is incomprehensibly and completely unreasonably delayed (while the SAM itself has a number of serious, but completely removable shortcomings: an insufficient sector of work, the speed of targets hit).

Obviously, all air defense systems have certain disadvantages, and they are very critical for the air defense of small ships. At the same time, the proximity of the weight and size characteristics of the 9M338E and 9M100E missiles makes it extremely expedient to integrate Reduta (Resource) into Tor. Due to this, the "torus unit" provides for the reflection of "dense raids" ("classic at sea" salvo of anti-ship missiles), and the "redoubt unit" (9М100) - all-round shelling and destruction of high-speed targets. At the same time, the basis of ammunition remains the massive and relatively cheap 9M338 missile defense system (which provides both the accumulation of the necessary ammunition for a large series of ships and intensive combat training).

It will be useful to compare the capabilities of various domestic air defense systems.


Taking this factor into account, the optimal appearance (maximum combat effectiveness at minimum cost) of a small multipurpose corvette is as follows:

- UKSK for 8 missiles: "Caliber", "Turquoise", "Onyx", "Zircon", "Answer" (optional);

- subtle GAS "Platina-M" (in case of its revision to provide the complex "Package" or GAS "Package-A" in addition to "Platina-M");

- towed GAS "Minotavr";

- a lowered GAS type "Vesta" or "Sterlyad" (for work in especially difficult hydrological conditions and ensuring accurate target designation of PLUR);

- Radar station "Positive-M" with a target designation complex similar to the first "Karakurt";

- "Complex SAM" "Tor-Redut" with SAM 9M338 (main SAM in ammunition), 9M100 and 9M96 (with means of radio correction);

- medium-caliber gun mount AK-176MA with the Bagheera fire control system and one 30-mm AK-630M-01 (with the ability to control it not only from the Bagira, but also optical sighting devices and the Tor-MF air defense system).

More than 10 real target channels, when repelling air attack weapons, provide not only a high efficiency of the ship's self-defense, but also, due to a large parameter, the possibility of their mutual cover and effective cover of protected ships and vessels, including in almost any hydrometeorological conditions.


Taking into account the moderate cost of the original ship (much less than 10 billion rubles), the cost of such an "optimal OVR corvette" can be about 12 billion rubles, while the fleet gets the opportunity to mass serial construction of extremely effective warships.

Comparison


It is interesting to compare this "optimal Karakurt" with other domestic projects.

Small "Cheetah" Zelenodolsk PKB, given the fact that it was originally developed as an effective anti-submarine, could become a very serious competitor to him. Moreover, the author considered this option as the most optimal (for more details - "On urgent measures to resolve critical problems of our surface shipbuilding" 16.11.2018).

It was written in 2018 based on the author's document "for the top". Questions from the "professional community" regarding its partial publication were, in particular, because in it the author for the first time in the media announced the laying of two frigates and a large landing ship, which took place only six months later (in 2019). But for a small multipurpose corvette, the case had no consequences (which, in fact, forced the author to "make the issue public").

Alas, we have to forget about the small "Gepard" - due to a very strange technical policy of the holding "Ak Bars" (which included the ZPKB). Using a significant administrative resource, “disputable ships” (“Buyan-M”, patrolmen of project 22160 and UDC) are “pushed through,” to put it mildly, into a series, but really promising and successful projects on the foreign market (“Gepard”) do not receive proper development ... Now the ZPKB is fully loaded with work on the UDC, and the implementation of the small "Gepard" in any short time simply became impossible.

Projekt 22160 of the Northern PKB, with a new portion of openly questionable advertising, presented at IMDS-2021:


To begin with, what is correct in this version.

The composition of the armament is close to that for the "mobilization (optimal) version" of the serial corvette 20380 (5): "Positive", "Redoubt" with radio correction (the antennas of which are located on the "tower" of the "new" 22160 radar). The only thing, the A-190-01 is a very good combat tool and you shouldn't give it up at 20380. Everything else can be (and must) be introduced into the "mass" corvette 20385 in the shortest possible time (with a significant reduction in its cost and the possibility of large-scale construction).

Accordingly, from the point of view of common sense and interests of the country and fleet, you just need to carry out the revision (even the modernization is not needed) within the framework of the serial GOST RV 307 and "drive" the series of corvettes 20385 (especially since there is a direct order from the President of the Russian Federation).

And now about what is “wrong” (or simply not true) in the new project 22160.

What do we see? Again 27 nodes, but with a significantly increased power (that is, a new power plant and, obviously, a gas turbine), which is not there. Moreover, a problematic question immediately arises about the gearbox (the narrowest point of our surface shipbuilding).

And right away - where are the air intakes, gas ducts for gas turbines?

"Not shown on the model and figure"? Obviously ... But, excuse me, such a "level" (in quotes) is simply not worthy of serious organizations (both the developer - SPKB, and the customer - the Navy).

At the same time, the body remains with its “innovative-stupid” contours, which have already “knocked out” the serial 22160. The Platina-M SJSC advertised on it is also, apparently, “conventionally not painted”.

It will not be superfluous to remind that in the recent incident off the coast of Crimea the patrol ship Derzhavin of project 22160 (one of the participants from our side) actually “signed” for its complete “impotence”: the promised 30 (or 27) knots and there are no real the use of a helicopter - no, the use of a publicized "high-speed armored turret" DShL (assault boat) - also no.

For 22160 we have only advertisements, promises (often simply not corresponding to the laws of physics).

Is it possible to make a new project of the "optimal corvette" of the Navy?

Yes, you can.

But the question of timing, and today hardly anyone will be even morally ready to repeat the feat of the creators of "Karakurt".

Accordingly, "Karakurt" remains the only real platform (project), on the basis of which, within an acceptable time frame, it is really possible to obtain a mass series of small OVR corvettes.

The key question of the mass episode


This raises the question of the production of high-speed diesel engines at Zvezda JSC. However, given a strict formulation by the state, the task is quite solvable, not to mention the fact that there are real opportunities to more effectively dispose of even what "Zvezda" is capable of giving today. From the article by A. Timokhin "Karakurt" with a water cannon. Russia has the opportunity to build ships at a Chinese pace ", "Military Industrial Courier" on February 18, 2020:

Russia has every opportunity to build warships at a Chinese pace ... At present, Zvezda is capable of producing three M507D engines per year, which makes it possible to build one ship in the dimensions of the Karakurt. Perhaps in the foreseeable future it will be possible to produce four engines per year. But three M507Ds are, in fact, six M504s, and four are already eight. M507 is, simply put, a pair of two M504s. Is it possible to obtain acceptable tactical and technical characteristics on the "halves" of the M507? It turns out that you can ... Multi-shaft water jets... This is, in fact, a "battery" of water cannons, occupying the entire width of the vessel from side to side.

So far, such propellers are used mainly on high-speed ferries. For example, Silvia Ana, with a length of 125 meters, a width of 18, a total displacement of 7895 tons and six engines with a capacity of 5650 kilowatts, develops a speed of up to 42 knots. Such a move is provided by a multi-shaft water-jet unit ... For a ship the size of a Karakurt and the same displacement (less than 1000 tons), a similar multi-shaft water-jet unit will provide comparable speed data at a lower power. Thus, instead of three M507D, four M504 can be used, each of which will work on its own water cannon. And we will solve the problem again, because even with the current capabilities of PJSC "Zvezda" for the supply of diesel engines, it will be possible to build up to two such ships per year ...

Since then, the production of diesel engines at PJSC "Zvezda" has accelerated somewhat. As for the limitations of water cannons in ice conditions, there are technical solutions for this (of course, with a significant speed limitation in ice).

Export


The high characteristics of "Karakurt" aroused a well-founded interest of potential foreign customers. However, in this issue, as always, there are pitfalls. The published advertising characteristics of the 22800E project include only the strike version of the weapon.


At the same time, the issue of small multipurpose ships is in great demand in the world. From an article in the "Morskoy Vestnik" on the export studies of "Karakurt":

Provided the possibility of placing various complexes of radio-technical weapons and intercom. In the part of the power plant, studies were made with diesel engines CHD622V20, MTU 20V4000 and MAN VP185. According to our calculations, a three-shaft unit will be able to provide a slightly lower one, and a two-shaft unit with two pairs of these engines comparable to the version equipped with domestic diesel engines ... An export version with anti-submarine capabilities based on it is being worked out.

As will be shown below, such a ship is ideally suited to the needs of a variety of customers. And here it will be very useful to remember the successful and effective predecessor - SKR project 159E.


The development project of the late 50s was widely exported and was for its time a very effective ship, primarily for shallow conditions and against diesel submarines.

Newer domestic IPCs of Project 1124, of course, significantly surpassed Project 159 in the oceanic zone and at great depths (due to lower-frequency HAS with a significantly greater detection range). However, at relatively shallow depths (where diesel-electric submarines could lie on the ground when evading), high-frequency GAS of project 159 ensured maximum search efficiency, and well-balanced armament from torpedoes (SET-53M, for more details - "Torpedo SET-53: Soviet" totalitarian ", but real") and rocket bombers complemented each other well - trying to evade rocket bombs by moving the target fell under torpedoes, and an attempt to avoid torpedoes by dropping the course or laying on the ground led to a sharp increase in the effectiveness of rocket depth charges.

So what is the situation today and what are the needs of foreign customers?

Let's consider some of them.

Algeria.

Despite the interest in the Tiger corvettes (export 20380), the German project MEKO A200 and the Chinese Adhafer were eventually chosen. The problem is that these are ships of a fairly large displacement (3400 and 2900 tons, respectively). It is impossible to purchase a large series of them and, accordingly, the search performance of a grouping of corvettes turns out to be very limited and does not even provide a reliable PLO of the flagship of the Algerian Navy - DVKD Kalaat Béni Abbès.

At the same time, the Soviet-built ICR project 1159 (development of project 159) still remains in the Algerian Navy, that is, ships of this dimension are in demand.


And in this situation, the "optimal Karakurt" can be a very effective solution. Of course, not by itself (by a single ship). The moderate cost of a ship makes it possible to build a series, for example, to hand over ships in "half divisions" - a pair of ships, "division" - 4 ships, forming an extremely effective anti-submarine KPUG (ship search and strike group) with powerful air defense and strike weapons.

India.

I chose the domestic project 28 (Kamorta-class) for serial construction. However, again, the ship has a very significant displacement (3300 tons) and cost (about $ 330 million per unit).

At the same time, there is a significant zone of shallow depths off the coast of India. Taking into account this factor and in connection with extended sections of shallow depths, the Indian Navy really wants a small PLO corvette, however, what is being obtained and proposed looks, to put it mildly, very pale and weak.

It is worth remembering that the Indian Navy has not only combat experience during the wars with Pakistan, but also the only (until 2010) combat loss from diesel-electric submarines - the F149 Khukri corvette, and just in a shallow area.


It is also worth noting here that India was one of the key operators of the Project 159E TFR, very actively using them at sea, with the implementation of a large number of anti-submarine exercises and torpedo and bomb attacks of submarine targets. On the TFR project 159E, many Indian anti-submarines have grown.

Taking into account the work of India (and unsuccessful) on a small corvette, a significant need for such a ship is obvious, and here the "optimal Karakurt" seems to be an extremely effective solution (for India, this is complemented by the possibility of using Russian-Indian anti-ship missiles "Brahmos" from it).

Vietnam.

Vietnam also received a series of Project 159E SRKs from the USSR, and they are still part of the Navy.

However, speaking of Vietnam, it is worth looking at its opponents - primarily the PLA Navy with a huge series of small corvettes of Project 056.


Obviously, in terms of its combat capabilities (despite its moderate cost), the "optimal Karakurt" looks like a "wolfhound in front of a puppy" against the background of Project 056, significantly surpassing it literally in all respects. And even in terms of the pace of serial construction, with the appropriate formulation of questions by the customer, the "Chinese record of a corvette copier" may well be beaten.

Vietnamese specificity - the need to cover and provide not only the coast, but also the remote islands of the Spratly archipelago (some of which belong to Vietnam).


Taking this factor into account, it seems reasonable and expedient to equip corvettes with a modular anti-mine complex based on the PLUTO PLUS and PLUTO GIGAS anti-mine underwater vehicles (NPA) with a radio communication buoy (taking into account the absence of a dynamic positioning system on the ship). At the same time, when a search GAS is installed on an UVV, it can partially perform the role of a specialized anti-mine sonar, for example, when ensuring the movement of a ship in a mine-hazardous area.

In addition, the presence of an UUV with a means of inspecting contacts and a powerful explosive charge makes it possible to effectively classify objects at the bottom (for example, ultra-small submarines) and, if necessary, destroy them. You can read about the flexibility and versatility of the PLUTO complex in the article “Rescue imports? Anti-mine complex PLUTO for the Russian Navy ".


The possibilities of the 22800E project fully provide for the placement of the PLUTO GIGAS complex.

Air defense systems for export projects traditionally fulfill the requirements of the relevant foreign customers for the placement of their chosen air defense systems (both Russian and foreign). The options can be any - as far as the ship allows.


However, here a big advantage of domestic air defense systems is the possibility of real display of repelling massive air attacks (in the process of pre-contract preparation of a contract), while not a single foreign air defense system has the ability to simultaneously destroy more than 10 air targets from a small displacement ship.

Thus, the preferred appearance of the "export optimal Karakurt":

- UKSK for 8 missiles: "Club" (including anti-submarine 91RE), "Bramos", "Yakhont";

- subtle GAS "Platina-M" and "Package-A" (or foreign GAS, for example, Indian);

- towed GAS "Vignette-ME" (or foreign BUGAS, including special high-frequency ones);

- a lowered GAS type "Vesta" or "Sterlyad" for operation in especially difficult hydrological conditions and ensuring accurate target designation of PLUR (or foreign OGAS);

- Radar station "Positive-M" with a target designation complex similar to the first "Karakurt" (or foreign radars);

- "Complex SAM" "Tor-Resource" with SAM 9M338E (main SAM in ammunition), 9M100E and 9M96E (with means of radio correction) or foreign air defense systems;

- medium-caliber gun mount AK-176MA with Bagira (or foreign) and one 30-mm AK-630M-01 (with the ability to control it not only from Bagira, but also optical sightings and Tor-MF air defense systems);

- anti-mine complex PLUTO GIGAS.


The low cost of such a ship allows you to immediately order ships in groups (tactical formations) and ensure high efficiency in the search and destruction of submarines, with a guarantee of high combat stability of the ships and their powerful strike weapons.

Yes, in accordance with the wishes of the (other) customers, "enhanced" variants of the ship are also quite possible. However, it should be remembered that if a truly highly effective solution to the ASW problem is required, then the required series of ships is needed (that is, optimization and requirements for a separate ship must be formed at the level of their entire group). And the KPUG of the “optimal Karakurt” is a deadly enemy for the submarine.

Universal modular launch system (UMPS) as a necessary element of ship armament


Speaking about the armament of both our and a number of foreign ships, it should be noted that there is a very high need for a special guided launcher for the use of various means of destruction and self-defense.

First of all, this concerns electronic warfare, the effective formulation of passive (and active fired) interference today requires precisely the inductive launcher.

In addition, for the conditions of shallow depths in a number of countries (China, India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Turkey and others), there are still rocket launchers. Despite the fact that in terms of their characteristics they are formally inferior to torpedoes, they make it possible to effectively solve a number of tasks, especially against ultra-small submarines and special sabotage weapons (and NSA).


RBU salvo from the Project 054A frigate of the PRC Navy

The list of tasks of such a launch UMPS is not limited to those indicated.

Such a launcher is not only needed, it is very much needed. However, the small size of the corvette does not allow the installation of several special launchers (for each means of destruction or self-defense), it is precisely a single (one per small ship) universal guided UMPS that is needed. It's up to the customer and the industry.
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  1. -17
    July 6 2021
    MRK is an obsolete class of ships. They have low seaworthiness, autonomy, weak air defense, there is no possibility of fighting submarines. The Buyans have Chinese diesels, the reliability of which is in great doubt (one of the Buyans had to open the hull to get the Chinese), and the Karakurt have domestic M-507 developments of the 50s (they are still based on the technologies of the Third Reich) with minimum resources, low reliability, maintainability and huge oil consumption. They are made no more than 10 per year.
    And at the same time, in terms of price, they are not much inferior to corvettes.
    All over the world, such ships are built only by the Russian Federation.
    1. +10
      July 6 2021
      Article plus.
      Maxim offers a real solution for PLO in BMZ with a huge export potential due to which the ships can be built in a large series. Yak spank sausages. Karakurt will be able to ensure the deployment of missile submarines.
    2. +19
      July 6 2021
      It's not about reviving the MRK - it's just about creating a multipurpose ship based on it.

      and the "Karakurt" have domestic M-507 developments of the 50s (based on the technologies of the Third Reich) with minimal resources, low reliability, maintainability and a huge oil intake. They are made no more than 10 per year.


      And all of this would be fixable, moreover, Zvezda even had developments on the future elimination of these bugs.

      And most importantly, there is no alternative. We have a hole in the PLO and there is no money.
      1. +1
        July 6 2021
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        We have a hole in the PLO and no money.

        Can we get money at the expense of the oligarchs? We don’t have money, we don’t have adequate leadership, everything else is a fairy tale for the poor.
        1. +4
          July 6 2021
          Can we get money at the expense of the oligarchs?

          They've been getting it for 20 years. Only money for all sorts of garbage, such as pr. 22160, go away.
          1. +1
            July 6 2021
            Money for that and money that would go somewhere. And where to.... request
            1. +2
              July 6 2021
              And where to...

              Do not tell me, project 22160 has a very distant relationship to the tasks of the Navy request
              1. +3
                July 6 2021
                Yes, most of the modern ships of the Russian Federation have this most distant relation to the Navy, and are more aimed at "maintaining \ sponsoring \ grant content" of various research institutes, design bureaus, shipyards and their contractors. And the Navy itself is primarily to blame for this, or rather its top, which either does nothing, or rivets copy-paste of foreign solutions with postscripts in the style of "quickly, efficiently, inexpensively, you can choose only two, but we want all three" or invents different projects that are either not implemented or are being implemented but very quickly become meaningless and useless.
      2. +2
        July 7 2021
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And most importantly, there is no alternative. We have a hole in the PLO and there is no money.

        I think the body of the "Karakurt" is still a little too small for a PLO corvette, but on its base in VI somewhere around 1300 tons, it would be possible to get an excellent small corvette. With all of the above set of weapons and a helipad (without basing).
        The proposed venigret of air defense means (missiles) has raised doubts. For such a small ship in the near zone, it is not rational to swing a powerful air defense system, this complicates and unjustifiably inflates the price. For this class of ships, the best (in terms of price and capabilities) would be an air defense system based on Pantsir-M. But with some adjustments. First, this is a new radar with a transition to extreme centimeters in order to exclude signal attenuation in conditions of fog, splashes, low clouds. And the second - an interesting solution would be to separate the artillery and missile parts of the Pantsir, collecting the SAM missiles in a single package of the "Frame" type, and leave the artillery unit in the form of two AK-630s with an optical sight, side by side. The capabilities of such an air defense system will be quite enough for a ship of this class and purpose, especially since the universal weapon also quite successfully copes with air defense missions. At the same time, there will be a decent gain both in the cost of the air defense system itself and the missiles for it (the Pantsir have the simplest and cheapest), which will have a positive effect on the possibilities of mass construction, combat use and combat training.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        M-507 development of the 50s

        Why not consider using a power plant based on Kolomna diesel engines at Karakurt-PLO? They are of course low-speed, but this can be solved by a gear transmission, but they are more accessible and easier to operate. If the VI for "Karakurt-PLO" will be in the region of 1300 - 1500 tons, then it would be possible to use the power plant from the corvette 20380, with a speed of 30 knots.
        1. 419
          0
          July 7 2021
          Quote: bayard
          in VI somewhere around 1300 tons.

          Quote: bayard
          GEM based on Kolomna diesel engines?

          it was just the idea of ​​"blackjack"
          but with him - "passed"
          Quote: bayard
          "Karakurt" is still somewhat small, but on its basis in VI

          there are nuances due to the transitional contours of 22800
          with an increase in D, the "classic" is better (like the contours of the 56th project)
      3. 0
        July 7 2021
        And how compact can OGAS be when placed on a small vessel? And what is the minimum displacement, say, a boat should have in order to accommodate an OGAS?
      4. 0
        July 9 2021
        I just thought, I liked it and I thought again.
        1. Why is the UKSK obligatory? If I remember correctly, oblique PUs for onyx were tested. They are anyway cheaper and easier to install.
        2. An abundance of air defense weapons. An additional air defense system on the corvette will raise its price. It is easier to screw a rocket with a launch range of about 40 km to the shell, it will be behind the eyes of the corvette. And the rocket seems to be being created, a matter of time.
        3 / 100mm. Why are they RTOs? Shoot along the shore? Maybe two shells would be better? 76 channels to any board.
        4. In terms of engines, the star, of course, has wonderful weight and size characteristics, but everything else ...
        It is easier for Karakurt to dismantle the middle 507, and install an afterburner instead. Bykov will have to install a third shaft for the turbine. But on the other hand, it will have low-noise diesel engines with a good resource. Plus, you can put on the sides are not sparks. And one more big bonus in the direction of Bykov. Kolomna can make relatively a lot of diesel engines, and there will be no plugging in engines with a mass production.
        5. Which is easier, to lighten the Bykov's body or insert into Karakurt. Both this and another is a radical rework of the project.
        Perhaps the ideal variant is the hull of the serial Karakurt with the replacement of the medium diesel engine with an afterburner turbine, with a second Shell instead of the bow 100mm, and a platform for the UAV and the possibility of refueling the helicopter. Such a project is the most realistic (minimum modifications) and the cheapest. VI will increase, but not critically, 50-70 tons.
    3. +3
      July 6 2021
      RTOs are a cheap platform for expensive missiles. First of all, this is a replacement for all kinds of missile boats and old MRK. And in fact it is a floating Bastion. This is an opportunity to increase the density of a salvo of the near sea zone forces. And this is part of the 2038x-mrk corvette bundle. On a fig from an extremely cheap mobile pu to do some kind of ersatz is not at all clear. Pantsir-m is a self-defense weapon in the first place, and secondly, an opportunity to benefit a grouping of ships after the MRK has fired its 8 missiles. For good, my IMHO needs about 2 mrk for 1 corvette 2038x. After the bottleneck with the engines is embroidered, we can stamp these ships in batches. At the same time, one thing must be understood. In the event of a pre-war situation, it is pointless to lay down a destroyer. It will be under construction for 8 years and during this time the war will begin and end while it is on the stocks. And it is quite possible to lay a dozen 2 MRK in the pre-war time. There are many who can build them. And it is also possible to build in less than 2 years. It is clear that in the case of OBDs, their test program will be greatly shortened. We can build such ships right during the war. Given the available TVD, such ships will be in demand for 3 out of 4. The World Cup, the Baltic and the Pacific Ocean will require a lot of such mobile PUs. This is something that we can build quickly, cheaply, and a lot. A Japanese destroyer, a Turkish frigate or a Polish pelvis see where the rocket comes from - from an expensive destroyer or a cheap MRK. The rocket is the same. request
      1. +4
        July 6 2021
        RTOs are a cheap platform for expensive missiles.

        The nuance is that after the elimination of the INF Treaty, MRKs are not particularly needed, the same "Calibers" can be launched from a ground launcher.
        1. 0
          July 6 2021
          Yes, even before the INF Treaty, MRKs were not particularly needed since it was possible to use aircraft carriers of large radars and missiles (the same Tu-95), the main thing was that they had spherical radars and RVV-MD for self-defense from fighters and as a KAZ from missiles. As for the problems / shortcomings of such a solution, they, like those of the KR / BR-SMD, are solved through the concept of "mutual destruction of key objects".

          Well, for example, the Turks will destroy or block our Black Sea Fleet, well, they will receive the destruction of their factories, warehouses, power plants, bridges, and other infrastructure facilities, and then the local population will set their brains to their authorities, the main thing is to correctly convey their goals, objectives and reasons to this very population.
      2. 419
        +1
        July 6 2021
        Quote: g1v2
        MRK is a cheap platform for expensive missiles.

        Yeah
        + to its price tag less than 20% and it is put MULTI-PURPOSE, BALANCED and HIGHLY PROTECTED
        Quote: g1v2
        And in fact it is a floating Bastion.

        belay
        nifigase ... "Bastion" ... for 9 Lard (I'm talking about buoys) belay
        Quote: g1v2
        Shell-m - self-defense weapons in the first place

        first of all it is GOOD WEATHER weapon
        and here bad - butt
        Quote: g1v2
        For good, my IMHO needs about 2 mrk for 1 corvette 2038x

        belay
        yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
        by whom will we be "equal"?
        Quote: g1v2
        A Japanese destroyer, a Turkish frigate or a Polish pelvis see where the rocket comes from - from an expensive destroyer or a cheap MRK. The rocket is the same.

        IF SHE FLIES UP (the carrier will not be drowned before)
        and WILL FALL (for this I would really like a good control center)
        so here the "optimal Karakurt" turns out to be optimal
        1. 0
          July 7 2021
          Quote: 419
          and here the "optimal Karakurt" turns out to be optimal

          It really looks like this, but only in VI "up to 1000 tons." it is unlikely to fit. But if the VI will be of the order of 1300 - 1500 tons - a completely different matter. Then everything will fit, seaworthiness will improve, and possibly autonomy. Moreover, such a difference in VI will not particularly affect the price (with the same composition of weapons), because the cost of the hull of a modern ship usually does not exceed 15% of the cost of the same ship as a whole.
          The main criticism of the MRK has always been based on its complete defenselessness from the underwater threat and weak air defense. In the case of "Optimal Karakurt" ... he himself becomes a threat to everything under water. With acceptable air defense.
          This is the kind of ship that is needed as the main one in BMZ.
          But provided its VI is not lower than 1300 tons, to ensure acceptable seaworthiness.
          1. 419
            0
            July 7 2021
            Quote: bayard
            but if the VI will be of the order of 1300 - 1500 tons, it is a completely different matter. Then everything will fit, seaworthiness will improve, and possibly autonomy.

            and another power plant
            and another price tag
            THE ESSENCE OF THE PURPOSE IS THAT IT WOULD BE REASONABLE TO LIMIT THE COST FOR THE MASS SERIES (AND EFFECTIVE LIGHTING OF THE UNDERWATER SITUATION WITH OPTIMALLY DISTRIBUTED MEDIA WITH GOOD AIR)
            1. 0
              July 7 2021
              Quote: 419
              and another power plant

              So after all, and so the problems with diesel engines are significant, and we are talking about expanding their use (because plans for RTOs are already in place and are being implemented, and small PLO corvettes are only being proposed).
              I propose to consider the power plant for the corvette VI 1300 - 1500 tons, taken from the project 20380. Four engines instead of three of about the same power, but on two shafts. The power should be quite enough for 30 knots of travel, but the grown VI will improve seaworthiness (and so good) and will make it more convenient to place all weapons systems.
              And you shouldn't even think about Redoubt (its missiles) on such a ship, it will be expensive and unnecessarily difficult. "Pantsir-M" will be enough. But with the radar, something will have to be done unambiguously. For the naval version of this air defense missile system, a radar is needed in the extreme "cm" range.

              I don't think four low-speed diesels will be much more expensive than 3 high-speed ones with 112 cylinders each. Again, two shafts instead of three.
              And two rectors instead of three.
              In addition, Kolomna, it seems to me, will be able to organize the supply of such diesel engines more successfully.
      3. 0
        July 7 2021
        is it easier to place Gauges on the shore? Will RTOs be able to launch missiles in a 5-point storm?
    4. 419
      0
      July 6 2021
      Quote: El Dorado
      MRK is an obsolete class of ships. They have low seaworthiness

      fool
      is it "Karakurt" is "low seaworthiness" ????? belay
      What are you smoking wassat ?
      Quote: El Dorado
      autonomy

      Like 956.
      Few?
      Quote: El Dorado
      weak air defense

      The article indicates the option of a VERY strong air defense
      At a price LESS than the current one (with P-M)
      Quote: El Dorado
      there is no possibility of fighting submarines

      ADD
      not a problem
      Quote: El Dorado
      "Karakurt" domestic M-507 developments of the 50s (based on the technologies of the Third Reich yet) with minimal resources

      what are
      there are no analogues with such specific indicators
      and not only in our country, but also in the world
      enough for operation
      Quote: El Dorado
      low reliability

      if the hands of the operators grow out of the priests
      Quote: El Dorado
      a huge amount of butter

      Yes
      Do you have any other suggestions?
      waiting
      Quote: El Dorado
      They are made no more than 10 per year.

      more
      taking into account SNSZ
      Quote: El Dorado
      And at the same time, in terms of price, they are not much inferior to corvettes.

      fool
      K without PLO = thirds of the corvette
      K with PLO = half
      is it "not strong"?
  2. -10
    July 6 2021
    When did the Cheetahs become promising ships? The development of the late 80s, the outdated architecture of the hull and superstructures, a huge EPR, a relict air defense system, very weak air defense for a ship of this type and an ingenious power plant of the CODOG type, which will be covered with a copper basin on the very first long voyage.
    Such ships are suitable only for the Caspian, where there are no submarines and serious opponents. 22160 times better than 11661.
    1. +3
      July 6 2021
      How is it sideways? Maybe speed? Or weapons? Only "stealth" lines can be called here.
    2. +10
      July 6 2021
      You are simply not in the subject of the failed versions of this project, the so-called. "small cheetah"

      22160 times better than 11661.


      What was that now? Body trade? Are you at work here?

      Are you trying to compare the squalor of 22160 with this?



      Or with this option



      A fight between these two and 22160 do not want to imagine?
    3. 419
      0
      July 6 2021
      Quote: El Dorado
      When did the Cheetahs become promising ships?

      it was going about the new "cheetah"
      the first figures of 116 were kept for purely "diplomatic reasons" "
      so called "blackjack"
      which, alas, did not take off
      for NON-TECHNICAL reasons
  3. +4
    July 6 2021
    the use of a publicized "high-speed armored turret" DShL (airborne assault boat) is also not available.

    And how could he use the DSL against a destroyer? belay
    1. 419
      -2
      July 6 2021
      Quote: K-50
      And how could he use the DSL against a destroyer?

      DShL - no way
      and here is a good high-speed seaworthy RIB!
      throwing anti-sabotage grenades "under the belly" is still far from the most harmful thing that the RIGHT boat could do
      1. -1
        July 6 2021
        Quote: 419
        RIB can, but DShL cannot

        it's good to have a brain with double standards, but at least try to describe what this can be like this

        what can not this
        1. 419
          -1
          July 6 2021
          Quote: ProkletyiPirat
          it's good to have a brain with double standards,

          monsieur, do not attribute the cockroaches in your own head to others
          deal with them yourself
          DSL in the situation with Defender was simply INAPPROPRIATE
          but the NORMAL INTERCEPTOR (such as purchased by the "cardinal's guards") - WITHOUT PROBLEMS
          by the way, they have them in the north, in winter in conditions of 20x20 (degrees and m / s wind) and on the "bayonet" through the wave worked normally (because it is simply impossible to turn and reset the speed on the RIB in such a situation - it will turn it over)
          1. 0
            July 6 2021
            again, there are two pictures above,
            1) in the first RIB picture
            2) in the second picture DShL
            3) attention question: What can the first do that the second cannot?
            4) if you have any "own" RIBs, please bring their models + photos and then answer the question.
            1. 419
              -4
              July 7 2021
              Don't be hysterical and take an interest in at least a killer angle
              1. +2
                July 7 2021
                well, with the same success, you can send you to study what is the sediment, center of mass and center of resistance, but to the question above What can the first one (RIB) do that the second one (DShL) cannot? you are apparently unable to answer, so I see no point in continuing.
                1. 419
                  0
                  July 7 2021
                  Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                  well, with the same success, you can send you to study what is the sediment, center of mass and center of resistance, but to the question above

                  BUNNY, you are very funny with your "messages to study"
                  so, slightly and a little bit from MY (PERSONAL) works - tests at sea (highlighted in red) on THIS topic -
                2. 419
                  -1
                  July 7 2021
                  and now "spets" wassat by centers of gravity " lol we carefully look at WHAT should have been on 22160 ORIGINALLY

                  do not even bother to call me WHOSE "the product of the convulsively naval brain" is "armored turtle" - personally Vitka and Tryapa

                  Shl i.e. initially 22160 developers supplied a normal SEA RIB with good deadlift
                  but after the "Wishlist" was kicked there on the "armored turret", there were no other options for how to reduce the deadlift (the size of the slip is limited, including from above)
  4. +9
    July 6 2021
    The shortened technical design was prepared within a month and a half ... The technical design was completed by November 2015


    We saved on the building, taking the already finished project 12300 - which died without being born. That is, large-scale experimental work with the pool and the withdrawal of the necessary contours were canceled, and as a result, they passed the modeling and then the control recording of characteristics in the pool. Only contours are 6-9 months of PKB work.

    The question arises - is it possible to place the BUGAS "Minotavr" on a small corvette based on Project 22800 (without significantly changing its dimensions)? And the obvious answer is yes.


    What for? The ship has 336 cylinders on board. Actually, while he has high-speed monsters from the Star, there is no effective PLO and will not be. Perhaps driving Kim's roaring cows is like friendship with him. Well, or search with muffled diesel engines, but this method has outlived its usefulness already in the 80s.

    The modern standard is a full electric ship (like a submarine on a battery within a small section) or an electric ship under low-noise diesel generators. France, Italy, Egypt, South Korea and Japan already have such ships.

    Well, the cherry on the cake is that your Minotaur is produced just barely worse than Star diesels. There are a lot of problems, even with the cable system (Pskovkabel died, and he was a unique supplier - he was just replaced in 2021). That is, it will not be banal for a large series of GAKs.
    1. +5
      July 6 2021
      We saved on the building, taking the already finished project 12300 - which died without being born.


      False

      That is, large-scale experimental work with the pool and the withdrawal of the necessary contours were canceled, and as a result, they passed the modeling and then the control recording of characteristics in the pool. Only the contours are 6-9 months of the PKB's work.


      So I have the opportunity to ask the project's GC about this, but what about you? Why are you writing this here, it is not true!

      What for? The ship has 336 cylinders on board. Actually, while he has high-speed monsters from the Star, there is no effective PLO and will not be.


      From this point of view, don't you want to discuss project 1124 / 1124M?

      Well, the cherry on the cake is that your Minotaur is produced just barely worse than Star diesels. There are a lot of problems, even with the cable system.


      Production was restarted under a different legal entity
    2. 419
      +2
      July 6 2021
      Quote: donavi49
      Saved on the building, taking the already finished project 12300 - which died without being born

      lies
      new case
      Quote: donavi49
      That is, large-scale experimental work with the pool and the withdrawal of the necessary contours were canceled.

      lies
      Quote: donavi49
      Only contours are 6-9 months of PKB work.

      Monsieur, I will sadden YOU
      in 9 months, for the same "blackjack" it was really possible to make a techno-working project
      and the assessment is not mine, and not even his GC, but, let's say, "the enemy of the GC" - that is, objective by 101%
      Quote: donavi49
      Actually, while he has high-speed monsters from the Star, there is no effective PLO and will not be.

      fool
      1124 project looks at you with amazement belay
      for these stars had acc. AZ facilities
      and here is the real Trouble of the "original Karakurt" - SLE
      but troubles are quite solvable (already resolved)
      specifically for 1124M, the facts of Dobn Platinum (not M) 20+ km in the ocean were far from being isolated
      on the "stars"

      Quote: donavi49
      The modern standard is a full electric ship (like a submarine on a battery within a short distance)

      understandable ... but here at the "fashionable boys around the corner" ... lol
      Quote: donavi49
      Well, the cherry on the cake is that your Minotaur is produced just barely worse than diesels. Stars

      better
      but he has troubles
      and my attitude towards him is ... complicated
      however "there are other options"
      Quote: donavi49
      That is, it will not be trite for a large series of GAKs.

      EASILY
      Corresponding production capacity is not more than half loaded
  5. +7
    July 6 2021
    In a short time, an inexpensive high-speed seagoing ship was created to replace the MRK
    Inexpensive without "Shell", maybe, but high-speed and seaworthy, there are big doubts about that.

    Moreover, if necessary, not only consumable search means (buoys), but also such means of destruction as anti-submarine bombs, including homing bombs ("Zagon"), can be fed from the corvette to the hanging helicopter. The capabilities of helicopter winches provide this quite well.
    Okay, refueling, but replenishing the BC is too much, the winch into a 120 kg bomb will undoubtedly drag it only into the cargo compartment, and from there how, on kicks, throw it overboard the helicopter? It's easier to hit the shore or the base ship, in my opinion. Refueling is fine.
    1. +4
      July 6 2021
      Take a look at the internal layout of the Ka-27. Everything is done very simply there.
      1. +1
        July 6 2021
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Take a look at the internal layout of the Ka-27. Everything is done very simply there.
        I forgot to confess about the weapons bay, but in its current form it is serviced externally, so replenishing the ammo while hovering will require significant re-equipment, it seems to me.
        1. 419
          -3
          July 6 2021
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          I forgot to confess about the weapons bay,

          no
          compartment is unreal
          into the cockpit
      2. 419
        -2
        July 6 2021
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Take a look at the internal layout of the Ka-27. Everything is done very simply there.

        if you put the winch
        STAFF
        which ALWAYS had to be put on the 27M (and the combatant 27PS)
        1. +3
          July 7 2021
          Some nonsense about the replenishment of the bookmaker on the "hover". As you can imagine, after you have dragged the ASP into the helicopter cargo compartment, hang them on the beam holders in the cargo hold. We raised the hatches in the floor, and then we pulled out the holder, clicked the locks on the ammunition, again somehow shoved it into the cargo compartment, I'm not talking about interfering power kits, a bunch of additional problems that the calculations for the suspension on the ground face (this is how it happens you need to push yourself up. ..). In flight, RUs include how to use the OMS blocking systems. Ammunition weight.
          1. 419
            -1
            July 7 2021
            Quote: RaDeVl
            As you can imagine, after you have dragged the ASP into the helicopter cargo compartment, hang them on the beam holders in the cargo hold

            NO
            I wrote in Russian - to the CABIN
            GPS Corral
            WEIGHT ALLOWS
            because with BC, our verts have a specific priest
            PS
            Read carefully, and only then carry your nonsense about "nonsense"
            1. 0
              July 7 2021
              So what will you drag into the cockpit, a winch from the Ka-27PS, which is not on the Ka-27 or can be a GAS cable. You will throw ammunition with your hands or, all the same, we will use the SUS. And you mean my nonsense.
        2. 0
          July 7 2021
          On 27's, everything can be done much easier.
          1. +1
            July 7 2021
            I think the idea of ​​replenishing the BC during the flight is a double-edged sword.
    2. 419
      -2
      July 6 2021
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      but high-speed and seaworthy, there are big doubts about that.

      fool
      Your doubts are watery to put it mildly - against the background of the results of the ZHI and the State
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      and from there how, on kicks, to throw overboard the helicopter?

      yes at least so
      we have very big problems with bookmaker
      especially on vert
      1. 0
        July 7 2021
        Quote: 419
        Your doubts are watery to put it mildly - against the background of the results of the ZHI and the State
        And what did these Gosy show, 35-37 knots like the Gadfly? Or rolling restrictions for weapons above 5 points, like the Gadfly?
        Quote: 419
        and from there how, on kicks, to throw overboard the helicopter?

        yes at least so
        I will quote you - fool laughing
        1. 419
          0
          July 7 2021
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          And what did these Gosy show, 35-37 knots like the Gadfly?

          WHAT IS THE WAVE ???
          Remember G-5 ...
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Or rolling restrictions for weapons above 5 points, like the Gadfly?

          ABOVE
          Much
          But the Gadfly has 5 points, to put it mildly "with nuances"...
          1. -2
            July 7 2021
            Quote: 419
            Remember G-5 ...

            Well, okay, at what excitement can Karakurt keep 30 knots? wink

            Quote: 419
            ABOVE
            Much
            But the Gadfly has 5 points, to put it mildly "with nuances."
            Tales about "much higher", and the nuances of the Gadfly are the bow location of the Wasp and at least one hundred tons less displacement
            1. 419
              0
              July 7 2021
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              at what excitement can Karakurt keep 30 knots?

              SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN 1234
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Tales about "much higher"

              DO YOU represent the difference between planing contours (1234) and transitional (22800)? Or are you stupidly tearing apart the trampoline?
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              for the Gadfly, this is the bow location of the Wasp and at least one hundred tons less displacement

              neither 1234 nor 1124 today IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REPEAT - THE NORMS have changed
              - phrase GK 1124 Kashkin
              1. -1
                July 7 2021
                Quote: 419
                at what excitement can Karakurt keep 30 knots?
                SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN 1234
                Oh, how significant, and so the maximum move with a two-point excitement is removed at most. "Much more", God forgive me.

                Quote: 419
                neither 1234 nor 1124 today IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REPEAT - THE NORMS have changed
                And the move too?

                Quote: 419
                DO YOU represent the difference between planing contours (1234) and transitional (22800)? Or are you stupidly tearing apart the trampoline?
                All your meaningful hints, and without numbers, on the wow-speed and wow-seaworthiness of Karakurt in comparison with the Gadfly, fall apart by the fact that the 1234 BOAT contours and this is far from the same as the planing ones, and at full speed the Gadfly did not plan at all , but as it should be cut the water with a rod, so that.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. +1
                  July 12 2021
                  Do you call this "cutting the water"? Nothing to talk about?



                  Can you see the trim?
                  There below one more comment on the topic addressed to you.
                  1. 0
                    July 12 2021
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Can you see the trim?

                    Quite, that's just about the destroyers I wrote for a reason, not for you:

                    So 1234 just cut the water, like the destroyers of the 20-30s, no planing.
                    And his raised nose only made the nose trim equal to the foot:


                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    There below one more comment on the topic addressed to you.

                    Yes, he already answered, Maxim grabbed a couple of phrases and "argued" with them stubbornly, but about planing, he does not at all understand that planing implies the bow out of the water, for a sharp decrease in resistance, which is not close to 1234.
              2. -1
                July 8 2021
                Quote: 331
                Monsieur, I will upset YOU, the sea is not YOUR sofa (even a squeezed one)
                and very often it is "hunchback"
                Oh, what are you Maxim, you guessed right? Painfully characteristic turns.

                The photo is beautiful, no doubt:

                But the phrase is no, the phrase is stupid:
                Quote: 331
                so YOU ​​with your murzilochny nonsense about 2 points "swim" wassat you know where
                because sea trials of small-tonnage vessels are carried out at sea waves up to two points. And I'm waiting for a photo of the same entry on the 4-5 (7-8 points) meter wave of "Karakurt" at any move.

                Quote: 331
                WOW !!! The time has come for offigit stories wassat tell pliz about the "boat lines"

                Yes please.
                As you know, during planing, the weight of the boat is almost completely balanced by the hydrodynamic lifting force, due to which the boat floats and slides on the surface of the water .. ... In creating the hydrodynamic lifting force, only the aft half of the hull is usually involved, the contours of which are specially designed with the expectation of planing.
                Where is the photo of the "Gadfly" planing?

                The contours of high-speed boats are different:


                And here are the specific lines:



                And as we can see, they are not called planing at all. Compare with the contours of the "Gadfly"




                there is a similarity, but not complete, the "Gadfly" has a noticeably higher transom deadrise, but as you know:
                With an increase in the angle of external deadrise from 0 to 20 °, the relative resistance R / D increases by about 25-30%, and at a deadrise angle of about 40 °, the planing stops and the boat switches to sailing mode. Therefore, the bottom deadrise at the transom is usually assumed to be the minimum permissible for reasons of seaworthiness.
                So along the contours, just pr. 1234 is transitional, albeit with the preservation of sharpness and the absence of concavity of the bottom, which can be explained by the installation of the gun in the stern, which is in the bow at 22800.



                And what the chief engineer writes about the "gliding" hull, maybe he did not write at all, or the PeAr "Karakurt" is like that, at the expense of the "Gadfly"
                Because nowhere else is the "planing" hull mentioned.

                Quote: 331
                I promise not to laugh loudly and it hurts not to kick.
                To begin with, justify the speed and seaworthiness of the "Karakurt", the alleged Maxim, with numbers.
              3. -2
                July 8 2021
                What supposed Maxim is cleaning up your comments?
  6. +3
    July 6 2021
    We jumped out of the corner, fired and replenished the bz. Under the cover of s-400) and other coastal air defense systems!) Or from the base)
    1. -2
      July 6 2021
      Quote: huntsman650
      We jumped out of the corner, fired and replenished the bz. Under the cover of s-400) and other coastal air defense systems!) Or from the base)

      It is unlikely that it will work with 30 knots, but at 270 and knots it is already quite.
    2. 0
      July 6 2021
      Well, what's the point in "jumping out" if the same tasks are solved by coastal-based anti-ship missiles / PLUR?
      1. +1
        July 6 2021
        So the PL still needs to be found.
        1. -1
          July 6 2021
          Quote: strannik1985
          So the PL still needs to be found.

          Well, first of all, for this there are not only ships but other search methods (look for my next post "well, in this case it will turn out that"), and secondly, even this is not particularly what should be given above an example of looking for "mutual destruction of key objects"
      2. 0
        July 6 2021
        There PU are universal, like wait, don't start, we will now stick missile torpedoes))). Suddenly it will be necessary to work on boats! You will need to come closer!
  7. +3
    July 6 2021
    Maxim, all that we are good at is creating problems for ourselves! We do not have a fleet, but a collection of near-battle ships. One corvettes 3 lines! It's good that we don't make destroyers, there would be even more variability there! But, the main problem is the power plants, they are the brake that does not allow building more ships for the fleet. Until we solve this problem, we will pour from empty to empty!
    1. -2
      July 6 2021
      How many articles have already been propogandon, that drygatelli are already ready)))
    2. 419
      0
      July 6 2021
      Quote: Thrifty
      One corvettes 3 lines!

      MORE
      and NOT ONE FULL-VALUE and without serious "jambs"
      Quote: Thrifty
      the main problem is power plants, they are the brake that does not allow building more ships for the fleet. Until we solve this problem, we will pour from empty to empty!

      there are no special TECHNICAL problems
      and for organizational purposes - there is a well-known "Ipatyev method"
  8. -5
    July 6 2021
    Personally, my IMHO, 22160 is better suited for the role of a mass corvette.
    He already has a platform (a hangar is not needed) for a helicopter, there are volumes and displacement reserves for additional weapons, even excessive ones. Replacing Kolomna with M-70, or assembling GODAG from a diesel engine and a gas turbine is a difficult issue, but it can be solved with bulk orders. The body is unambiguously lighter, up to 1300-1400 full.
    But about the air defense I do not agree with the word at all. One of the key properties of a corvette is its low cost.
    The maximum that an air defense corvette needs is 57 / 76mm + Carapace M. Possibly two Carapace M, he doesn’t need medium-caliber artillery. Thor is not our method at all with its range, no chances of increasing in the future.
    In any case, both when choosing Karakurt and when choosing Bykov, my personal opinion is the Kolomna + M70 engine, about 380 forget the cylinders as a nightmare. Air defense armament Pantsir M, with extended-range missiles, possibly two. Separate metal cutters are a waste of displacement.
    UKSK is a controversial issue. Impact corvette is not needed much. Perhaps two paired 533 TA for waterfalls and two quad units X-35 will be cheaper.
    PLO, here I am frankly weak.
    1. +3
      July 6 2021
      Here's your 22160

      Time.
      https://topwar.ru/151455-chemodany-bez-ruchek-vmf-pokupaet-seriju-absoljutno-bespoleznyh-korablej.html

      Two.
      https://topwar.ru/184451-afera-perezapuskaetsja-pokazan-novyj-variant-patrulnogo-korablja-22160.html

      I just don't know what else might be missing to adequately assess this miracle of technology.
      1. +2
        July 6 2021
        In its current form, the karakurt does not in any way qualify for the title of the BMZ guard corvette.
        General questions for projects:
        1. What can be done with the hull with what is now in the armament.
        2. What is easier to remotorize (and this is necessary for both projects)
        Karakurt definitely needs an insert for additional weapons. Bykov, on the contrary, needs to be facilitated.
        And if the relief is likely to benefit the seaworthiness, then the insert will definitely spoil the seaworthiness.
        It is easier to rearm Bykov. All kinds of gyms, cabins for the inspection team, a place for a container (BUGAS from the nuclear submarine can be crammed !!!JOKE!!!) a helicopter hangar is a bunch of additional areas for everything that is possible.

        What does a promising corvette definitely need?
        1. Helicopter pad (plus fuel and possibly a small UAV hangar). UAVs on board and the ability to carry a helicopter dramatically increase impact properties, PLO, and situational awareness.
        2. Means of detection and destruction of submarines.
        3. Adequate air defense. Not 100m Babakha and Redoubt, but the fact that it will be enough for him to fight off the attack of 2-3-4 aircraft or 5-6 anti-ship missiles, quickly dumping the coastal air defense under the umbrella. The deployment of an anti-submarine KUG should definitely be covered by the ground air force. For this, two Carapaces for the eyes. If a missile with a launch range of 40 + km is attached to the Shell, this will be ideal.


        The ability to strike surface targets is secondary to this ship. Uranov for the eyes. Zircons, Gauges and Onyxes should be left to adult uncles. So, I think it is quite reasonable to use 533 TA + Waterfall as a cheap alternative to UKSK.
        76-100mm artillery loses its meaning. Maximum analogue of AU-220M with Derivation stuffing.
        Remotorization to Kolomna + M70 is required for both projects.
        1. +2
          July 6 2021
          And "Waterfall" is really produced?
          1. 0
            July 6 2021
            Good question. I honestly don't know.
            1. 419
              +2
              July 6 2021
              Quote: demiurg
              Good question. I honestly don't know.

              and when it was produced, to put it mildly "had questions"
              in general, "Waterfall-NK" is nonsense of a gray mare drunk with moonshine
        2. 419
          +1
          July 6 2021
          Quote: demiurg
          Karakurt definitely needs an insert for additional weapons.

          not uniquely
          but if necessary - a couple of spacing is not a problem
          Quote: demiurg
          Bykov, on the contrary, needs to be facilitated.

          this is to "alternative physics" wassat
          on which it was designed COVERED
          Quote: demiurg
          1. Helicopter platform

          I recommend reading the document on the requirements for it
          Quote: demiurg
          If a missile with a launch range of 40 + km is attached to the Shell, it will be ideal.

          Taking into account the mm-range of the firing lock, this is DRUGGING
          and taking into account the booster scheme of the SAM - BRED because the parameter in the opera ...
          the only thing that can adequately exchange the energy of a powerful missile defense system with a booster is high-speed targets with a small parameter
        3. -1
          July 6 2021
          Quote: demiurg
          3. Adequate air defense. Not 100m of Babakha and Redoubt, but the fact that it will be enough for him to fight off an attack of 2-3-4 aircraft or 5-6 anti-ship missiles, quickly dumping the coastal air defense under the umbrella.

          well, in this case, it turns out that the bundle from
          ) onshore complexes of PKR \ PLUR
          ) underwater cable GAK,
          ) Aircraft with VVPZ (VTOL) + GAK
          ) air-transportable reusable buoys and / or BEC with tethered GAK
          will turn out to be much more militarily and economically profitable than the corvette you have sounded.

          If we add to this an aircraft with VVPZ of an aircraft-like type (in terms of speed and fuel consumption per unit distance) and high-altitude UAV routers, then it is possible to block not only BMZ but also SMZ, as well as minimize the cost of overlapping DMZ as much as possible.
          1. +1
            July 6 2021
            well, in this case, it turns out that the bundle from

            The nuance is that the KUG can be sent to any point in the Black Sea or to a compound in the Mediterranean Sea, and the stationary SAC is not much cheaper and will illuminate the situation in one place.
            1. -1
              July 6 2021
              Quote: strannik1985
              KUG can be sent anywhere

              so above demiurg I wrote about corvettes and BMZ:
              Quote: demiurg
              quickly dumping under the umbrella of the coastal defense

              As for the SMZ and DMZ, they need ships of a completely different design and dimensions, not corvettes or MRKs, rather multifunctional frigate destroyers UO \ URO \ MORNING, and DVKD of various types (at least of the type of Singapore endurance)
              1. 0
                July 7 2021
                with regard to SMZ and DMZ

                Of course, yes, but as always there is not enough money for everything, and therefore, better corvettes, the KPUG of which can be sent led by the frigate of project 22350 ("Kuznetsov" or other BNK) than a highly specialized tool.
    2. 419
      +2
      July 6 2021
      Quote: demiurg
      22160 is better suited for the role of a mass corvette.

      fool
      with 21 knots FULL stroke?
      like buoys ???
      Quote: demiurg
      He already has a platform (a hangar is not needed) for a helicopter, there are volumes and displacement reserves for additional weapons, even excessive ones.

      these allegedly "reserves" were not enough to deliver pacifiers !!!
      Quote: demiurg
      The body is definitely lighter, up to 1300-1400 full.

      fool
      WHERE AND AT THE EXPENSE OF WHAT ?????
      aaaaa, you can THROW OUT THE GEU COMPARTMENT (it is "for some reason", contrary to the demands of the Navy ONE)
      just about so much it will turn out lol
      and on parat the tug will drag him to the barrels laughing
      Quote: demiurg
      Armor M. Possibly two Armor M

      ONCE AGAIN - YOU OFFER GOOD WEATHER air defense?!?!?!
      Quote: demiurg
      When choosing Bykov, my personal opinion is the Kolomna + M70 engine,

      EDITOR, as I understand it, YOU personally (in a notebook) will draw
      and provide the entire series offered by you (in the garage)

      Quote: demiurg
      Possibly two paired 533 TA under waterfalls

      "double-barreled shot"?
      or "show off at the parade"?
      You represent the insignificance of their "efficiency" (in quotes)?
  9. 0
    July 6 2021
    An interesting proposal, but again we want to cram the inexhaustible into one building and more, so that it can be quickly, reliably and cheaply. It doesn't work that way! I see a series of specialized ships on a worked-out project, but on the basis of Karakurt or Buyan-M. A series of PLO ships with appropriate equipment and weapons, a series of air defense, a series of attack ships. Each of them will be inexpensive and tailored to its own specifics. They should not walk one at a time, and with the right approach, it is possible to complete a grouping of forces with one or another slope and provide exactly the forces that are needed in this sector of the front.
    1. +2
      July 6 2021
      It does not happen!


      There is already a project. Accommodation of sailors in six-berth cabins will probably tell about the level of "packing" of systems on board the ship.
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      3. +3
        July 7 2021
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        accommodation of sailors in six-berth cabins.

        what it's a lot?
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +3
            July 7 2021
            Quote: 419
            DO YOU need to add a jacuzzi there?

            Maxim, so 6 cradles per cockpit is a lot ... or not enough?
            1. 419
              0
              July 7 2021
              Quote: Serg65
              so 6 cradles per cockpit is a lot ... or not enough?

              taking into account the area of ​​this cockpit, this is not even "much", but FAT
              1. +4
                July 7 2021
                Quote: 419
                it's not even "a lot", but FAT

                As far as I know. modern norms of 1,7 m2 for sailors ...... FAT, how much?
    2. -2
      July 6 2021
      That is, to make a universal KUG, you need at least three ships? Three times as many engines, diesel / fuel oil and little things like radar and artillery?
      1. 0
        July 6 2021
        Do you want a KUG from 1 Karakurt? lol
    3. YOU
      -1
      July 6 2021
      I generally liked the article. Of course there is roughness. Regarding the corvettes percussion RTOs are already there. And then we see the need to create RBU. RBU where there will be not a depth charge but a small homing "underwater rocket", similar to the same Packet-NK. Only a much shorter cruising range, a maximum of 400-500 m. So that it could target both a torpedo and a boat, With a firing range of up to 10, or better 15 km. The number of guide pieces 6. Ammunition pieces 20-30 units. Essentially an improved RBU-6000. On the basis of the same installation, hydroacoustic countermeasures projectiles. Such an installation is essentially a small PLRK. But it can also fight with the submarine in the near zone, and intercept torpedoes, moreover, reaching even at a sufficiently large distance, to other ships of the order. It is natural to deal with the GAS, and the radar. Without this, nowhere. True, with such a formulation of the question, the package is simply not needed, or only as an auxiliary system for a near anti-aircraft defense, PLO, and then if the interface is performed with the main hydroacoustic means of the ship, and not a separate own GAS. And that 57mm. AU, RBU, SAM is quite effective, 533 mm torpedoes at least 4.
      Helicopter ??? At least WFP. Well, "Uranus", plus AK-630, Duet, etc. Light corvette PLO.
      And the second corvette, "heavy" where there is a helicopter and UKSK, possibly an increased supply of missiles. Torpedoes 533 mm. and Uranus are missing. All this is based on a well-developed building and control unit.
    4. 419
      -2
      July 6 2021
      Quote: Marachuh
      to cram the impenetrable into one body

      crammed
      Quote: Marachuh
      to quickly, reliably and cheaply

      yes, it’s like this ALREADY IT HAS BEEN PURPOSED
      what would not "multiply" in a worthy series?
      Quote: Marachuh
      or Buyana-M.

      OVR for "rivers"?
      1. -1
        July 8 2021
        Quote: 331
        Monsieur, I will upset YOU, the sea is not YOUR sofa (even a squeezed one)
        and very often it is "hunchback"
        Oh, what are you Maxim, you guessed right? Painfully characteristic turns.

        The photo is beautiful, no doubt:

        But the phrase is no, the phrase is stupid:
        Quote: 331
        so YOU ​​with your murzilochny nonsense about 2 points "swim" wassat you know where
        because sea trials of small-tonnage vessels are carried out at sea waves up to two points. And I'm waiting for a photo of the same entry on the 4-5 (7-8 points) meter wave of "Karakurt" at any move.

        Quote: 331
        WOW !!! The time has come for offigit stories wassat tell pliz about the "boat lines"

        Yes please.
        As you know, during planing, the weight of the boat is almost completely balanced by the hydrodynamic lifting force, due to which the boat floats and slides on the surface of the water .. ... In creating the hydrodynamic lifting force, only the aft half of the hull is usually involved, the contours of which are specially designed with the expectation of planing.
        Where is the photo of the "Gadfly" planing?

        The contours of high-speed boats are different:


        And here are the specific lines:



        And as we can see, they are not called planing at all. Compare with the contours of the "Gadfly"




        there is a similarity, but not complete, the "Gadfly" has a noticeably higher transom deadrise, but as you know:
        With an increase in the angle of external deadrise from 0 to 20 °, the relative resistance R / D increases by about 25-30%, and at a deadrise angle of about 40 °, the planing stops and the boat switches to sailing mode. Therefore, the bottom deadrise at the transom is usually assumed to be the minimum permissible for reasons of seaworthiness.
        So along the contours, just pr. 1234 is transitional, albeit with the preservation of sharpness and the absence of concavity of the bottom, which can be explained by the installation of the gun in the stern, which is in the bow at 22800.



        And what the chief engineer writes about the "gliding" hull, maybe he did not write at all, or the PeAr "Karakurt" is like that, at the expense of the "Gadfly"
        Because nowhere else is the "planing" hull mentioned.

        Quote: 331
        I promise not to laugh loudly and it hurts not to kick.
        To begin with, justify the speed and seaworthiness of the "Karakurt", the alleged Maxim, with numbers.
        1. +2
          July 12 2021
          From Maxim:


          Monsieur, I will upset YOU, the sea is not YOUR sofa (even a squeezed one)
          and very often it is "hunchback"

          Oh, what are you Maxim, you guessed right? Painfully characteristic turns.

          The photo is beautiful, no doubt:

          But the phrase is no, the phrase is stupid:

          so YOU ​​with your murzilochny nonsense about 2 points "swim" wassat you know where

          because sea trials of small-tonnage vessels are carried out at sea waves up to two points. And I'm waiting for a photo of the same entry on the 4-5 (7-8 points) meter wave of "Karakurt" at any move.


          In this photo, there are not even five points, if anything, a dreamer

          WOW !!! The time has come for offigit stories wassat tell pliz about the "boat lines"

          Yes please.
          As you know, during planing, the weight of the boat is almost completely balanced by the hydrodynamic lifting force, due to which the boat floats and slides on the surface of the water .. ... In creating the hydrodynamic lifting force, only the aft half of the hull is usually involved, the contours of which are specially designed with the expectation of planing.
          Where is the photo of the "Gadfly" planing?


          BUNNY, YOU DON'T LEAVE THE TOPIC - THE QUESTION WAS ASKED TO YOU about YOUR "BOAT BYPASS"

          The contours of high-speed boats are different:
          ...
          And here are the specific lines:
          .....
          And as we can see, they are not called planing at all. Compare with the contours of the "Gadfly"


          BUNNY BREADING
          Even the BOARD is capable of GLISING
          And if you had studied at least a little something on the topic, you would have known about the meaning of the center of gravity and the DIFFERENT


          [/ Center]

          there is a similarity, but not complete, the "Gadfly" has a noticeably higher transom deadrise, but as you know:
          With an increase in the angle of external deadrise from 0 to 20 °, the relative resistance R / D increases by about 25-30%, and at a deadrise angle of about 40 °, the planing stops and the boat switches to sailing mode. Therefore, the bottom deadrise at the transom is usually assumed to be the minimum permissible for reasons of seaworthiness.

          So along the contours, just pr. 1234 is transitional, albeit with the preservation of sharpness and the absence of concavity of the bottom, which can be explained by the installation of the gun in the stern, which is in the bow at 22800.


          FACE ABOUT TABLE

          [Center]

  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. +3
    July 6 2021
    The man is rooting for the fleet, for Russia. Our newly-born bourgeois have no problems with luxury yachts, and they do not need corvettes, although they are the owners of "factories, newspapers, ships", that is, practically the entire privatized industry.
    They inherited a legacy from a superpower, in which only natural resources are important, from the military legacy only what is interesting for sale, for export.
    They are eating up Russia, "optimizing", only that which, again, for export, develops.

    There will be a rich foreign customer, there will be a good corvette, although an aircraft carrier, but with imported components, they have "optimized" their own (for our industry, "two eyes" is a luxury). It is costly to develop production, and you need to have a mind with talent, but you don't need to economize, cut back, you don't need a special mind. The money saved, "it's just like earned", the indicators on the presentations will climb up, "profit" will appear. This is how they "cut off" from a single industrial organism the extra "fingers" and "kidneys", so to speak, they reduce it. How the "optimized" disabled person in industry and science will survive further, the question is. The Soviet safety margin is running out ...

    The Russian Navy is not a rich customer, in fact, the customer is not the fleet, as it was before. Do the oligarchs need a strong navy, if everything is in the West, maybe it will be easier to surrender to the western masters so that the people are not raised to the pitch ahead of time?
    It turns out something like this, if you try to explain what is happening.
  12. sen
    +3
    July 6 2021
    - UKSK for 8 missiles: "Club" (including anti-submarine 91RE), "Bramos", "Yakhont";
    Bramos, Yakhont and Onyx are different names for the same missile. The main enemy of such a ship is aviation, and most likely it will not be the Harpoon that will shoot at it, but the AGM-65 Maverick with a range of 27 km. "Thor" intercepts missiles better, but its performance may not be enough, and "Pantsir-S" of the latest modification (with a range of 40 km) has its own problems. We need to develop our own sea version, like the one proposed by the author.
    1. +2
      July 6 2021
      There is no need to produce essences. it is necessary to refine what is. We have anti-aircraft missiles and air defense systems as uncut dogs.
      1. +2
        July 6 2021
        The fleet does not have such a large selection of air defense weapons now:
        SAM:
        - "Redoubt"
        - "Calm-1"
        - "Bending"

        ZRAK
        - "Pantsir-M", I'm not sure that it passed all the tests and was officially adopted for service

        ZAK
        - "Broadsword", it is possible that they will add to it LLKU-missiles from "Sosna"
        - "Duet"
        - AK-630M

        We can no longer produce everything else:
        - "Fort-M"
        - "Dagger"
        - "Chestnut" / "Dagger"
        - "Osa-M"
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 419
        +1
        July 6 2021
        Quote: demiurg
        There is no need to produce essences. it is necessary to refine what is.

        and now we turn on the mox
        R - yes RK went, but SAM "golden" + trabs with "shish kebab"
        P - troubles with weather, parameter and target maneuver (and fundamental)
        T - troubles with a sector and Vts (but which are simply "treated" by adding to the BC parts 96 and 100 missiles
        1. 0
          July 9 2021
          R - in any case, even 5 missiles are cheaper than a 4+ fighter. Hu from kebabs?
          P - the shell seems to have an optical channel.
          T + P - which is easier, replace the grating with another, with a different frequency, or adapt the missiles to another air defense system?

          About replacing the radar at the air defense missile system, I heard sometimes just a letter in the name differ. But so that a rocket from another manufacturer is screwed to the air defense system of one plant? Did you add Standard or Ram to Crotal?
    2. 419
      +1
      July 6 2021
      Quote: sen
      "Brahmos", "Yakhont" and "Onyx" are different names for the same missile

      no
      Quote: sen
      "Thor" is better at intercepting missiles, but its performance may not be enough

      for this, you need to engage the CONNECTION of ships for the salvo
      considering that this is a small ship and not a cruiser, it is already quite worthy
      Quote: sen
      "Pantsir-S" of the latest modification (with a range of 40 km) has its own problems.

      that's to put it mildly ...
      We need to develop our own sea version, like the one proposed by the author.

      NO
      we do not need DEVELOPMENT (203 GOST), for there is quite enough ADDITION in the series (307 GOST)
  13. +3
    July 6 2021
    It is hardly possible to get a massive, and therefore inexpensive, ship of such a VI multipurpose, therefore, the author M. Klimov correctly noted that each launcher should be as versatile as possible. Most likely, like a hundred years ago, for coordination when connecting such specialized ships, a flotilla leader will be required, having a large size and, accordingly, the capabilities of the same air defense.
    1. 419
      +1
      July 6 2021
      Quote: Yuri V.A
      will require a leader of the flotilla, which is large and, accordingly, the capabilities of the same air defense.

      Yes, right
      but already for SAM 9M96Д (DGZP which look at the photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation wink )
      but the usual 96 to provide enough for the "Positive-M" small corvette
  14. +1
    July 6 2021
    Maxim You contradict yourself! Talk about serial components. And right there about the fantastic Solyankovsky air defense system that will never be realized. About the jet engine which will be finished for years. Serial samples only. It was written here that the Star is being crushed. Does this mean there will be no more engines?
    1. +4
      July 6 2021
      Quote: tone
      It was written here that the Star is being crushed. Does this mean there will be no more engines?

      The plant itself physically remains - he is a monopolist, there is no replacement for "Zvedovsky" engines. They will just change the leadership once again.
      So one can hope that there will be engines.
    2. +1
      July 6 2021
      I agree. Wanguyu that problems will arise even in order to force the developers of the Tor-MF air defense system to stuff the 9M338 missiles into the Reduta UVP. Our industrial companies will definitely want to put on the ship their own unique launcher + their own separate control panel for the air defense missile system.
      But besides this, a guidance radar will be needed for the 9M338 radio command missile. If the Tor-M SN is used, then this overlapped azimuth will be 90 degrees. And here you need to either install 4 fixed CH antennas, or find a place somewhere to install a rotating booth with a CH antenna post. If only 1 SN antenna post is installed, then it will be possible to reflect the attack simultaneously from only one direction. Although for a BMZ corvette, IMHO, this will be enough.
      1. 419
        +2
        July 6 2021
        Quote: Cympak
        Wanguyu that problems will arise even in order to force the developers of the Tor-MF air defense system to stuff the 9M338 missiles into the Reduta UVP

        shitty of you wang lol
        take a close look at the UVP laughing - somehow "strange" they are VERY similar wink
        Quote: Cympak
        for the 9M338 radio command missile, a guidance radar will be needed. If the Tor-M SN is used, then this overlapped azimuth will be 90 degrees. And here you need to either install 4 fixed CH antennas, or

        or ADD a certain amount of 338 and 100 to the BK to the BASIC 96 SAM
        and the problem is solved
        1. 0
          July 7 2021
          look carefully at the UVP laughing - somehow "strange" they are VERY similar wink

          If so, then it cannot but rejoice good
          1. 419
            +1
            July 7 2021
            Quote: Cympak
            If so, then it cannot but rejoice

            Yes
            but the question "still needs to be squeezed" angry
    3. 419
      0
      July 6 2021
      Quote: tone
      contradict yourself! Talk about serial components. And right there about the fantastic Solyankovsky air defense system that will never be realized.

      THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION
      issue in agreeing protocols = several months of work
      Quote: tone
      About the jet engine which will be finished for years.

      BUY
      ready
      the main thing is that the REDUCER ALREADY IS
      Quote: tone
      It was written here that the Star is being crushed. Does this mean there will be no more engines?

      there withummah "butting" is equivalent to one (!!!) 507 car
      so - draw conclusions
      1. +1
        July 7 2021
        lol those. take the successful Karakurt in your own words, which by the way you proposed to stop building in favor of the modernization of old MRK, but here it seems that the ship repair and shipbuilding plants are a little different, but okay ... Take a successful project, successful because it is made solutions and immediately cram a bunch of R&D, which by themselves will take 5 years, then another 5 years to build a smut and then 15 years later start getting a series of almost 20385, only without a helicopter?
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  15. +1
    July 6 2021
    A definite plus for the author, but is the VO site capable of digesting such a large, specific amount of information?
    I only understand that the domestic industry is not capable of producing the required number of powerful, long-life propulsion systems for modern ships. Moreover, there is not even a prospect for improving the situation in this matter.
    Some do not like RTOs. Others consider aircraft carriers an anachronism, a mountain of metal with no real prospects for confronting hypersonic weapons.
    From home sofas it is problematic to determine the tasks for the fleet and the characteristics of ships, which do not yet exist in nature. And it's interesting to read the comments ...
    hi
    1. 419
      +2
      July 6 2021
      Quote: ROSS 42
      Is the VO site able to digest such a large, specific amount of information?

      VO is read by both specialists and VIP persons
    2. +1
      July 6 2021
      Quote: ROSS 42
      but is the site "VO" able to digest such a large, specific amount of information

      as they say "videole and more", in general, the volume is important for printed products, for electronic it is more important to study the article, its formatting, hyperlinks, tags and feedback, and the size itself is not critical, in extreme cases, you can add a bookmark (with copy-paste for search (Ctrl + F)) and read / re-read in several passes.
  16. 0
    July 6 2021
    Why do we need Super-Karakurt when we already have a corvette 20380?
    1. +1
      July 6 2021
      Because 20380 and its derivatives are 1135 in the current realities. That is, a cheap analogue of Gorshkov, just like 1135 was the younger brother of Bukam.
      And you need a replacement 1124.
      1. +1
        July 7 2021
        It is clear, in general, yes I agree, we need a modern anti-submarine small ship with a modern air defense system as a development of Project 1124.
    2. 419
      +3
      July 6 2021
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      Why do we need Super-Karakurt when we already have a corvette 20380?

      then that, for financial reasons, we cannot produce the number of "large corvettes" necessary (for an effective PLO)
      1. +1
        July 7 2021
        laughing so we won't be able to produce SuperKarakurt in such a configuration ... The decision, as it were, was found by the Americans at one time - they made a series of cheap ships ... and then there will be new R&D and a horse price tag, not to mention the fact that instead of an inexpensive thousand-year-old we get a ship under 2 displacement, only without a helicopter
        1. 419
          -2
          July 7 2021
          Quote: Barberry25
          so we will not be able to produce SuperKarakurt with such a complete set ..

          fool
          Barberry, do not attribute cockroaches in your head to others
          Quote: Barberry25
          The solution, as it were, was found by the Americans at one time - they made a series of cheap ships

          Did she at least understand what she wrote? lol
          Quote: Barberry25
          and then there will be new R&D and a horse price tag,

          fool
          Barberry, this is your nonsense wassat AND ACHINEA - having nothing to do with reality
  17. 0
    July 6 2021
    Meco 200 are frigates, not corvettes
    1. 419
      +1
      July 6 2021
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Meco 200 are frigates, not corvettes

      it is a matter of national classification
      in some countries they would not disdain to call them destroyers laughing
      1. -1
        July 7 2021
        Quote: 419
        Quote: Tlauicol
        Meco 200 are frigates, not corvettes

        it is a matter of national classification
        in some countries they would not disdain to call them destroyers laughing

        From Germany to South Africa, from Portugal to Australia, these are frigates. Both officially and essentially
        1. 419
          -2
          July 7 2021
          Quote: Tlauicol
          From Germany to South Africa, from Portugal to Australia, these are frigates. Both officially and essentially

          fool
          YOU "modestly did not notice" "one sixth of the land" with CORVETTE 20380
          and also such a "small country" as India (to which the CORVETTES of pr.28 have a D HALF TIMES MORE MEKO200)
          and also such a "small country" as the PRC - with extras KORVETOV pr.056
          Can YOU visit an ophthalmologist after all? lol
          1. 0
            July 7 2021
            You modestly didn’t notice that I’m talking about Meco200, and not collecting a flood.
            Meco 200 are frigates
            P.S. I'm not interested in Japanese or Iranian destroyers. Is there anything on a subject?
            1. 419
              0
              July 7 2021
              Quote: Tlauicol
              You humbly did not notice what I was saying

              Quote: 419
              it is a matter of national classification

              PM
              1. +1
                July 7 2021
                counted negative
                P.S.
                which nation calls the Meko200 a corvette or destroyer? from 15 countries of operators? Moreover, Meko has a separate line of corvettes
  18. -2
    July 6 2021
    Obviously, the MPK karakurt is needed, all real experts have been writing about this for a long time, obviously it is necessary to stop laying the MRK, because the CFE Treaty is no longer there, ... but does the MPK Corvette also need a URO? It seems to me that it is impossible to shove something that is not stuffed into a small corvette, especially since it should be cheap ... then it is better to give him an escort of RTOs, especially since they have done a lot of them ...
    1. 0
      July 7 2021
      it is necessary to cram the UVP, because without it we again begin to dance in the same place, because the UVP allows you to place longer-range anti-submarine missiles, and in case of a conflict, long-range missiles can be placed there ... it is better to have an additional 20 ships with 4-8 missiles on board than not to have ..
  19. +3
    July 7 2021
    it turns out funny ... at first they offered to close the PLO with karakurt, but then the naval "everything and more" turns on and as a result the pants turn ... into another corvette, long-term construction with shouts and yells, as a result of the overpriced and protracted construction and instead of cheap and serial, we get a series of under-corvettes, which will take 5-7 years to build.
    1. 419
      -1
      July 7 2021
      Quote: Barberry25
      ..first they offered to close the PLO with karakurt, but then the naval "everything and more" turns on and as a result the pants turn ... into another corvette, long-term construction with shouts and yells as a result of the overpriced and protracted construction and instead of cheap and serial we receive a series of under-corvettes, which will take 5-7 years to build.

      fool
      FACE ABOUT TABLE

      and it is not necessary to ascribe "voices" and cockroach races in your head to others
      Quote: Barberry25
      You can decide what you want: cheap and a lot, or expensive and not enough ..

      fool
      can YOU wassat drink some water ????
      however - will not help lol
      1. +1
        July 7 2021
        Klimov), you confuse warm and soft. Karakurt was done quickly because of the rapid development of the project and the absence of complex solutions, but you offer a new R&D package, which will automatically delay the development of a flat version of Karakurt and launch into a series, which in fact, instead of creating a large series ships, we will get another 20380 with the same rate of development of the first ships in 6-7 years with a theoretical acceleration of up to 5-6 years in the future ... in other words, we will screw up a series of RTOs, but we will not get anything in return in the next 15 years ..
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          1. 0
            July 7 2021
            Well, well, how much will it cost us the overweight up to 2 Karakurt with a new power plant on water-jet propellers, with a new air defense system adapted for other missiles, for several new acoustic systems that you propose to build, And most importantly ... construction time ... and come on without pouring out insults, otherwise Klimov, turn off the kindergarten and behave like an adult
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              1. 0
                July 7 2021
                laughing there is not a word in the article, there are your suggestions that if you stuff everything and a lot into Karakurt, then it will rise in price by only a few billion, but there is not a word about the time frame at all, and if the price is not important, then in terms of timing it is exactly that "quickly and a lot "will not work because of the larger number" we need to refine this and that "
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                2. +1
                  July 7 2021
                  YOU are denying the obvious. Regarding the fact that the package and OGAS can be put even on serial Karakurt, his GC spoke personally. Almaz has a project for the same ship, but with BUGAS.
                  Klimov, in fact, allegorically merges real things.
                  And you are arguing with reality.
                  1. -3
                    July 7 2021
                    Alexander, but such a vision DOES NOT EXIST !! This is R&D is a cutting topic! The engine and the air defense system need to be installed serial! Stop making karakuts and free engines and shells to put flat on the corvette. And cut SEPARATELY your fantasies with air defense systems and water cannons.
                  2. 0
                    July 7 2021
                    fellow I don’t argue with real things .. I’m about something else .. I repeat, there are proven solutions and they can and should be put, I’m only for, I mean that Klimov proposes to start new R&D and to cross the engine on water cannons and a torus with Redoubt and anti-sabotage functions, etc. and so on .. the problem is not to create, but that we take the idea and steal it, bringing everything back to the corvette, which is now being done at other shipyards, and we need a small displacement PLO ship with simple proven equipment that you can start riveting like cakes .. We don't need to have the best ship, we need a massive ship .. is that the difference, or do you seriously believe that 800 ton Karakurt and 2 Super Karakurt will do the same for 000 years?
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                      2. +1
                        July 7 2021
                        You are now communicating with the real author of this article (* I just posted it), and the article itself essentially describes a really existing project.
                      3. 0
                        July 7 2021
                        I hope we will be able to push through this project.
                        Because that would help very much to solve the huge problems of the fleet.
                        The only thing is that the AK-630 metal cutter should be replaced (provide for a replacement, in the form of a larger shoulder strap, etc.) with something like 57mm derivation at maximum speed, or provide ammunition and a coding system for controlled detonation like Rheinmetall Oerlikon Millennium Gun or Rheinmetall GDM-008, if it's real.
                        Well, or teach the carapace to hit .... Although here Thor is certainly better.
                      4. +1
                        July 7 2021
                        I'm afraid that it will not fit in there in size, although the idea is interesting, but optionally then it is worth installing an AK-301, it is not difficult to implement air detonation of projectiles on it, And if you screw in more Gibka, namely MANPADS and ATGMs, then this will strengthen the protection of the ship, although and the rate of fire will drop .. But this is all only in the course of the subsequent modernization, Now we need to build on the principle of "proven-cheap-fast"


                      5. 0
                        July 7 2021
                        Alexander, I have a question for you .. On karakurt and others they put diesel M507, with which there are problems in terms of their quantity, and why not then switch to Kolomna 10D49? There will be losses in speed, but I have not heard that there are any problems with their production ...
  20. 0
    July 7 2021
    The saddest thing in this situation is that there seem to be a lot of people on the Internet who analyze, reason and understand what and how to build a fleet, but in the leadership of the Navy, Defense Ministry and the Kremlin it seems as if there are no
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. 0
    July 7 2021
    My compliments and compliments to the author.
    I went into a corvette myself when writing an article, in the end here it is ... An almost perfect corvette!)
  23. +1
    July 7 2021
    Great article. I figured at one time that you can poke out of weapons / equipment even into a relatively small boat and go nuts.
    1. 0
      July 7 2021
      , And if our corvette is compared with the Taiwan corvette, a catamaran of close displacement
      1. +1
        July 7 2021
        Mnd, a formidable animal. But your oligarchs and Ayatollah Gundyaev have yachts at the price of Allie Burke.
  24. -2
    July 12 2021
    And it is impossible to retrofit already built RTOs with new air defense systems and submarine missile systems? Or will it fail?
  25. 0
    July 17 2021
    I don't understand a little, please tell us.

    1) You have indicated that the price of Karakurt, as I understand it, is much less than 10 billion rubles, and then a conclusion is made about the final corvette for about 12 billion. Wiki writes that the price of the current Karakurt is 2 billion rubles in 2017 prices. Maybe it turns out even cheaper? Or does all this modernization lead to a price tag of 12 billion rubles? It's just that then it is cheaper than 20380 (17 billion pieces), but not so much. Is it to replace 20380 (5) or to replace Karakurtam? Or both?

    2) How can you get the rate of construction faster than the "Chinese bed printer" if, according to the same Wiki, they rent them 10 pieces a year? As I understand it, there is a problem with the number of engines, which is proposed to be solved by water-jet propulsion (although really why not replace the M504 with 16D49 or 10D49, if the propeller is changed to a water-jet, such an engine is installed on the ill-fated Buyans, on which there is just a water jet propulsion).

    I am not a critic, and generally not a military one, but a civil naval navigator (a year later), but a number of such questions arose after reading the article, I hope you will answer
  26. 0
    December 17 2021
    What else to expect from Klimov. I did it, it's just awful. Outright nonsense.

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