Aces of the Luftwaffe: the phenomenon of too large accounts

... squadron in a fairly short period of time lost 80 pilots,
of which 60 never shot down a single Russian plane
/ Mike Speake "Aces Luftwaffe" /

With a deafening crash, the Iron Curtain collapsed, and a storm of disclosures of Soviet myths rose in the media of independent Russia. The theme of the Great Patriotic War became the most popular - the inexperienced Soviet man was shocked by the results of the German aces - tank crews, submariners and, especially, Luftwaffe pilots.
Actually, the problem is the following: 104 German pilots have an 100 score and more downed aircraft. Among them - Erich Hartmann (352 victory) and Gerhard Barkhorn (301), which showed quite phenomenal results. Moreover, Harmann and Barkhorn won all their victories on the Eastern Front. And they were no exception - Günther Rall (275 wins), Otto Kittel (267), Walter Novotny (258) - also fought on the Soviet-German front.

At the same time, 7 of the best Soviet aces: Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Gulayev, Rechkalov, Evstigneev, Vorozheikin, Glinka were able to overcome the 50 bar of downed enemy planes. For example, Three times Hero of the Soviet Union, Ivan Kozhedub, destroyed 64 German aircraft in air battles (plus 2 shot down by the American Mustang in error). Alexander Pokryshkin is a pilot, about whom, according to legend, the Germans warned by radio: “Ahtung! Pokryshkin in der Luft! ”, Chalked up“ victories in total ”59 air victories. Approximately the same number of victories has a little-known Romanian ace Konstantin Kontakusino (according to various sources, from 60 to 69). Another Romanian, Alexandru Serbanescu, shot down 47 aircraft on the Eastern Front (another 8 of victories remained "unconfirmed").

The situation is much worse in the Anglo-Saxons. Marmaduke Pettl (near 50 victories, South Africa) and Richard Bong (40 victories, USA) became the best aces. Total 19 British and American pilots managed to shoot down more than 30 enemy aircraft, while the British and Americans fought on the best fighters in the world: the inimitable P-51 "Mustang", the P-38 "Lightning" or the legendary Supermarine Spitfire! On the other hand, Marmaduke Pettl scored all his fifty victories, flying first on the old Gladiator biplane, and then on the clumsy Hurricane.
Against this background, the results of the Finnish aces-fighters look quite paradoxical: Ilmari Utilaynen shot down the 94 of the aircraft, and Hans Wind shot the 75.

What conclusion can be drawn from all these figures? What is the secret of the incredible performance of the Luftwaffe fighter? Maybe the Germans just could not count?
The only thing that can be argued with a high degree of confidence is that the accounts of all aces, without exception, are overestimated. To extol the successes of the best fighters is a standard practice of state propaganda, which by definition cannot be honest.

German Meresjev and his "Stuck"

As an interesting example, I propose to consider the incredible history bomber pilot aviation Hans-Ulrich Rudel. This ace is less known than the legendary Erich Hartmann. Rudel practically did not participate in air battles, you will not find his name in the lists of the best fighters.
Rudel is famous for flying 2530 sorties. The dunking bunker “Junkers-87” piloted, at the end of the war he moved to the Fokke-Wolf 190 helm. During his combat career destroyed 519 tanks, 150 self-propelled guns, 4 armored trains, 800 trucks and cars, two cruisers, a destroyer and severely damaged the battleship Marat. He shot down two Il-2 attack aircraft and seven fighter jets in the air. He landed on enemy territory six times to save the crews of the crippled Junkers. The Soviet Union appointed a reward of 100 rubles for the head of Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Just a fascist standard

Return fire from the ground, he was shot down 32 times. In the end, Rudel cut off his leg, but the pilot continued to fly on a crutch until the end of the war. In 1948, he fled to Argentina, where he became friends with the dictator Peron and organized a circle of mountaineering. He climbed the highest peak of the Andes - the city of Aconcagua (7 kilometers). In 1953, he returned to Europe and settled in Switzerland, continuing to carry nonsense about the revival of the Third Reich.
Without a doubt, this uncommon and controversial pilot was a cool ace. But any person who is accustomed to analyzing the events thoughtfully should have one important question: how was it established that Rudel destroyed 519 tanks?

Of course, there were no photo machine guns or cameras on Junkers. The maximum that Rudel or his gunner-radio operator could notice: the covering of the column of armored vehicles, i.e. possible damage to tanks. The exit speed from the Yu-87 dive is more than 600 km / h, and the overloads can reach 5g, in such conditions it is impossible to accurately detect anything on the ground.
From 1943, Rudel moved to the Yu-87G anti-tank attack aircraft. The characteristics of this “lapterer” are simply disgusting: max. horizontal flight speed - 370 km / h, rate of climb - about 4 m / s. The main weapons The aircraft became two BK37 guns (caliber 37 mm, rate of fire 160 rds / min), with a total ammunition load of 12 (!) shells per barrel. Powerful guns mounted in the wings, when firing, created a large unfolding moment and shook the light aircraft in such a way that the shooting in bursts was meaningless - only single sniper shots.

Ju-87G

And here is an amusing report on the results of ground tests of the VN-23 aviation gun: in 6 departures on IL-2, the pilots of the 245 assault regiment received 435 hits in the tank column (46%) with the total expenditure of 10,6 shells. We must assume that in real combat conditions, under intense anti-aircraft fire, the results will be much worse. Where is the German ace with 24 shells aboard the Stuck!

Further, getting into the tank does not guarantee its defeat. An armor-piercing projectile (685 grams, 770 m / s) fired from a BK37 cannon punched 25 mm of armor at an angle of 30 ° from the normal. When using sub-caliber ammunition, armor penetration increased 1,5 times. Also, due to the aircraft’s own speed, the armor penetration in reality was still more by about 5 mm. On the other hand, the thickness of the armored hull of the Soviet tanks only in some projections was less than 30-40 mm, and there was nothing to dream about hitting KV, IC or heavy self-propelled gun in the forehead or board.
In addition, armor penetration does not always lead to the destruction of the tank. In the Tankograd and Nizhny Tagil regularly arrived trains with padded armored vehicles, which were restored in a short time and sent back to the front. A repair of damaged rollers and chassis was carried out on the spot. At this time, Hans-Ulrich Rudel drew himself another cross for the "destroyed" tank.

Another question for Rudel is related to his 2530 sorties. According to some reports, in German bomber squadrons, it was customary to count as a reward a difficult sortie for several combat sorties. For example, captive captain Helmut Putz, commander of the 4 squad of the 2 group of the 27 bomber squadron, explained during interrogation the following: “... in combat, I managed to make 130 — 140 night sorties, and a number of sorties with a complex combat mission counted , like the others, for 2 — 3 of departure. ”(interrogation protocol from 17.06.1943 g). Although it is possible Helmut Putz, having been taken prisoner, lied, trying to reduce his contribution to the attacks on Soviet cities.

Hartmann against all

There is an opinion that the pilot-aces implacably filled their accounts and fought "by themselves", being an exception to the rules. And the main work at the front was carried out by pilots of average qualification. This is a profound delusion: in a general sense, pilots of “medium qualification” do not exist. There are either aces or their prey.
For example, let’s take the legendary Normandie-Neman air regiment that fought on the Yak-3 fighter jets. Of the 98 French pilots, 60 did not win a single victory, but the “selected” 17 pilots shot down German aircraft in 200 air battles (the French regiment drove an 273 aircraft with a swastika into the ground).
A similar picture was observed in the 8 of the United States Air Force, where from 5000 fighter pilots, 2900 did not win a single victory. Only 318 people chalked up 5 and more downed aircraft.
American historian Mike Spike describes the same episode associated with the actions of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front: "... the squadron lost 80 pilots in a rather short period of time, of which 60 never shot down a single Russian aircraft."
So, we found out that the aces pilots are the main force of the Air Force. But the question remains: what is the reason for the huge gap between the performance of the aces of the Luftwaffe and the pilots of the anti-Hitler coalition? Even if you divide the incredible accounts of the Germans in half?

One of the legends about the insolvency of large accounts of the German aces is associated with an unusual system of counting downed aircraft: by the number of engines. Single-engine fighter - one downed aircraft. Four-engined bomber - four downed aircraft. Indeed, for pilots who fought in the West, a parallel test was introduced in which the pilot was recorded at the expense of the destruction of the Flying Fortress flying in battle order at the expense of an 4 score, for a damaged bomber that had fallen out of order and became easy prey other fighters, the pilot recorded 3 points, because he did most of the work — breaking through the hurricane fire of the Flying Fortresses is much more difficult than shooting a damaged single plane. And so on: depending on the degree of participation of the pilot in the destruction of the 4's motor monster, he was awarded 1 or 2 points. What happened then with these prize points? Probably, they were somehow converted into Reichsmarks. But all this had nothing to do with the list of downed aircraft.

The most prosaic explanation of the Luftwaffe phenomenon: the Germans had no shortage of goals. Germany on all fronts fought with the numerical superiority of the enemy. The Germans had 2 main types of fighters: "Messerschmitt-109" (1934 through 1945 the year 34 was released thousand) and "Focke-Wolf 190" (released 13 thousand in the fighter version and 6,5 thousand in the attack aircraft version) - that's 48 thousand fighter.
At the same time, over the years of the war, the Red Army air force passed about 70 thousands of Yakov, Lavochkin, I-16 and MiG-3 (excluding 10 thousands of Lend-Lease fighters).
At the Western European theater of war, Luftwaffe fighters were confronted by about 20 thousand Spitfires and 13 thousand Hurricanes and Tempests (just as many cars were in the Royal Air Force from 1939 to 1945). And how many more fighters have Lend-Lease Britain received?
From 1943, American fighters appeared over Europe - thousands of Mustangs, P-38 and P-47 plied the Reich sky, accompanying strategic bombers during raids. In the 1944 year, during the landing in Normandy, Allied aviation had a sixfold quantitative superiority. “If there are camouflage airplanes in the sky, these are the Royal Air Forces, while the silver ones are the USAF. If there are no airplanes in the sky, this is the Luftwaffe, ”the German soldiers joked sadly. Where in such conditions could take large bills from British and American pilots?
Another example - the Il-2 attack aircraft became the most massive combat aircraft in aviation history. During the war years 36154 attack aircraft were released, of which 33920 Ilov entered the army. By May 1945, the Red Army had 3585 IL-2 and IL-10, another 200 IL-2 was part of naval aviation.

In short, the Luftwaffe pilots did not have any supernormal abilities. All their achievements are explained only by the fact that there were many enemy planes in the air. Allied fighters, on the contrary, took time to detect the enemy - according to statistics, even the best Soviet pilots had an average 1 air combat on 8 sorties: they simply could not meet the enemy in the sky!
On a cloudless day, from a distance of 5 km, a fighter from World War II can be seen as a fly on a window pane from the far corner of a room. In the absence of radar on the aircraft, the air battle was rather an unexpected coincidence than a regular event.
It is more objective to count the number of downed aircraft, taking into account the number of pilots flying sorties. When viewed from this angle, the achievement of Erich Hartman dims: 1400 sorties, 825 air battles and "all" 352 aircraft shot down. This indicator is much better for Walter Novotny: 442 sorties and 258 victories.

Friends congratulate Alexander Pokryshkin (far right) on receiving the third star of the Hero of the Soviet Union

It is very interesting to trace how the pilot-aces began their careers. The legendary Pokryshkin in the first combat missions demonstrated aerobatic skills, insolence, flight intuition and sniper shooting. A phenomenal ace Gerhard Barkhorn in the first 119 departures did not win a single victory, but he was twice shot down! Although it is believed that Pokryshkin also did not all go smoothly: the Soviet Su-2 was his first aircraft shot down.
In any case, Pokryshkin has his advantage over the best German aces. Hartman was shot down fourteen times. Barkhorn - 9 times. Pokryshkin was never shot down! Another advantage of the Russian wonder-hero: he won most of his victories in 1943 year. In 1944-45 Pokryshkin shot down all 6 German aircraft, focusing on the training of young personnel and the management of the 9 Guards Air Division.

In conclusion, it should be said that one should not be so afraid of the high accounts of the Luftwaffe pilots. This, on the contrary, shows what a formidable opponent he defeated the Soviet Union, and why the Victory is of such high value.

Comments

[Tirpitz]

A good article, even if the Germans reduce 30-50 aircraft each, the figure is impressive. I read Hartman's memoirs. He always tried to avoid carousels and not get involved in protracted fights. I saw, shot down and left here is his tactics. I always preferred flying at high altitudes and from close range shot at close range.

[Fox]

the Germans counted the shot down was confirmed by the FKP. THERE IS A GETTING MEANS VICTORY. and the fact that the plane flew on, it did not interest anyone ...

[sancho]

I agree! The Germans are meticulous and accurate. And for the identified misinformation they could not stroke the head.
The article is controversial, the author O. Kaptsov wrote clearly picking his finger ... there.

Quote: Tirpitz

I read Hartman's memoirs. He always tried to avoid carousels and not get involved in protracted fights. I saw, shot down and left here is his tactics. I always preferred flying at high altitudes and from close range shot at close range.

Ace. He is in Africa Ac. His task is to quickly get the result, and not risk himself.
The author would better analyze the facts of the training of our pilots after the outbreak of war. In fact, the boys with 20-30 hours of raids sat at the controls against these German Ases. After such flights, many did not return. And it’s not surprising that Hartman and others could have clicked on such a few holes for a flight.

[Pessimist]

Quote: sancho

The author would better analyze the facts of the training of our pilots after the outbreak of war. In fact, the boys with 20-30 hours of raids sat at the controls against these German Ases. After such flights, many did not return.

It was in the first two weeks of the war that the Luftwaffe lost the lion's share of the aces! and it was in the first two weeks that the losses of the Germans were expressed in three-digit numbers per week! This was then only once, during the Belarusian offensive. Not boys in the 41st fought with the enemy, the failures of the ground troops and predetermined the tragedy of Soviet aviation in the summer of 41st. But then the "boys" and had to fight with the aces, when combat pilots died or disappeared in the environment. And yet - "personal account" has nothing to do with the execution of a combat mission! "It is much more useful to set one on fire than to get involved in a long carousel" - the words of Hartman, but they are difficult to follow when covering the bombers or "oozes" performing the task!

[Zerstorer]

Sorry, actually repeated your thought.

[crazyrom]

Quote: article

What is the secret to the incredible performance of the Luftwaffe fighters?

They simply did not count downed planes, but the number of rounds fired

[ALEXEY TSENTILLO]

It turns out that the Soviet guy received 10-15 hours of flying time at the school and brought down laudatory "aces"? So the Soviet guys are more capable of flying?

[pavlo]

Yes, they were cowards and fraudsters - attributed victory to themselves so that you never dreamed of - read or listen to the book of Yuri Mukhin - a means of mass nonsense - you can stop admiring our enemies, ashamed !!!

[Zynaps]

German pilots were not cowards. fraud is a different matter and has nothing to do with cowardice. to read the books of Yu. Mukhin is harmful to the brain, for this author, in his warlike incompetence, is like Rezun. how many times Mukhin was caught on enemies and dunked in his own shit ...

[AlexxNik]

it’s better to read Mukhin than Volkogonov, and they catch him on trifles, they don’t spoil the main idea

[Pimply]

Mukhin is better not to read at all. A layman and professional conspiracy theorist, on what he earns

[pavlo]

Yes, for one, Katyn’s villainy, it would be possible to erect a monument during his lifetime!

[Zynaps]

nonsense. Mukhin in his "work" said such that it would be better to chew. he gave extra trump cards to supporters of the Goebbels version. so if anyone undertakes to argue about the Katyn case based on the materials of Mukhin, do not be surprised if opponents beat you like children, laugh at you and let you go naked to Africa.

[AlexxNik]

only, for some reason, his "conspiratorial" fantasies are always harmoniously and logically linked, but his opponents cannot boast of this, so they come up with the adventurer Hitler, the cowardly Stalin and the brilliant Tukhachevsky. And by the way the liberal justice banned him, he only earned a hernia, perhaps.

[Zynaps]

Quote: AlexxxNik

only, for some reason, his "conspiratorial" fantasies are always harmoniously and logically linked

Have you been in science for at least five minutes? harmonious theories are always suspicious. and even more so in history. in historical science, inconsistency or roughness is not something out of the ordinary. people write documents, people tend to make mistakes. the historian is somehow an interpreter. and Mukhin is a slurry caster and infuser of molasses in Russian history.

Quote: AlexxxNik

but the opponents cannot boast of this, and they come up with the adventurer Hitler, the cowardly Stalin and the genius Tukhachevsky.

in your blind love for Mukhin, you simply don’t know that Mukhin has many opponents. and from different sides. you probably never talked with your idol? if his lie is squeezed as it should by facts, he begins to behave like a child in a sandbox: he spits, calls names and waves his shoulder blade. so Goblin was at his fan club, but two years ago he could not stand it and expelled the idiot from Tupi4ka. there if you read the thread - a hurricane. Mukhin turned his whole inside out.

[AlexxNik]

I would love to read YOUR counterfacts or references to reasoned disputes, but not with Goblin, somehow I don’t see him as a historian. And in science, history, my opinion is that it is better to study history according to Mukhin than from current textbooks, and what kind of science is it that cannot describe events 80 years ago without roughness, only because one country has nothing to do with the archives will not be declassified, and another throaty group of people carefully watches that its interests in that war are not advertised, it’s not roughness, it’s sabotage, and history is no longer science, but some kind of craft like lawyer work

[Pimply]

Mukhin is a historian, this is a very good joke. I neighing, merci

[AlexxNik]

here, by the way, it’s caught, not every historian can boast of such an effect : I am citing from the book of Martirosyan A.B. "200 Myths about Stalin": Mukhin's books are the rarest case in interstate relations. The fact is that when the Poles were already prepared to receive from Russia the enormous monetary compensation they were dreaming of, the publication of these books, especially the second, dealt a crushing blow to all Polish plans in this regard. But 800 thousand relatives were found among several thousand Polish officers allegedly shot by the NKVD! And after all, everyone was clattering their teeth, demanding compensation. But even the Poles, with their irrationally Russophobic thinking and memory from time immemorial, became clear that the Polish officers were shot by the Germans and therefore they would not receive money from Russia. The book by Yu.I. Mukhina was even considered in the Polish Seim, whose deputies threw out their viciously disappointed indignation to the State Duma of Russia. Poland was forced to shut up. And this was the highest award for the author. Few of the historians manage, with their modest work, not only to repulse the frantic attacks of the enemies of the Motherland, but also, having smashed them utterly, save Russia enormous financial resources ... "
I advise everyone to read it, and especially to the leaders of Russia! " whether on this subject you have a persistent rejection of his work)))

[Zynaps]

Quote: AlexxxNik

I quote from the book of Martirosyan

Martirosyan is still inadequate. cuckoo praises a cock ...

dear comrade, if someone says the right words, it doesn’t mean that this person is your ally. with such henchmen as Mukhin and Martirosyan, no enemies are needed.

and especially no need to guess why and why there is dislike for Mukhin - it’s easier to ask so as not to be foolish.

[Vadivak]

Quote: AlexxxNik

it’s better to read Mukhin than Volkogonov’s,

GERMAN EXPERTS have always been extremely careful. They attacked only weak - single or damaged - cars. They never went to ram. That would mean putting your precious life in jeopardy.

Our pilots during the war years made 590 rams only. Often they died at the same time. But not always. The pilot Boris Kovzan made four aerial rams and survived.

[ATATA]

Quote: Vadivak

GERMAN EXPERTS have always been extremely careful. They attacked only weak - single or damaged - cars. They never went to ram. That would mean putting your precious life in jeopardy.

How can one be so self-confident dunno ?? !!
Why should everyone stick out their incompetence, in such cases it is better to keep quiet, but for now Google will help you.

[Zynaps]

this is a very naive opinion. Mukhin was caught on the enemies in matters of principle.

do you know that Mukhin has had a new mania in the last two years: he decided that he was smarter than the NKVD and Smersh taken together and decided to blame the betrayal of Soviet generals who were captured? and those generals to whom there were no complaints after the war. Karbyshev, Lukin and some others. it seemed to Mukhin’s inflamed Muscovite a little and now he also blames the hero of the 1912 war, M.I. Golenishchev-Kutuzov.

[AlexxNik]

I did not go over to "you", but since that was so, after the war there were no complaints against many generals, despite the fact that there was a conspiracy, and they handed over to divisions frankly, it was not right to fix the court when the enemy smashes furniture in the house, to the same Meretskov they explained that he was wrong and was allowed to fight and nothing, all his chest in orders. I also read about Golenishchev-Kutuzov, his whole company is shouting about it, just no one called a spade a spade, they don't judge the winners

[Pimply]

Mukhin is a professional conspirator. He knows very well that part of the population will always be led by conspiracy theories, and uphold them to the last. It is enough to look at the list of his works to understand everything. He chopped BUTTERS on this. And considerable.

[AlexxNik]

The opinion of a pro-Israeli citizen about Mukhin is not interesting to me, it is predictable, but according to "conspiracy" we are still studying and studying, and an attempt to bring money here as well is not at all original

[Pimply]

Naturally, it’s not interesting if you read a fellow conspiracy theorist who considers Jews to be the backstage of the world and calls them 8 jaids) Mukhin and the Americans did not fly to the moon, and Stalin was white as an angel. Mukhin is doing fine.

[AlexxNik]

Americans really didn’t fly there, and Mukhin was one of the last making sure disbelieving and far from the first, and with Stalin everything is not so clear, the mass of his contemporaries left more than positive reviews about him and Mukhin did not help them here,

[Pimply]

Tell me, is the opinion of Soviet cosmonauts zero for you? Mukhin is a conspiracy theorist. People who are more or less knowledgeable carry his theories to smithereens, but this is not scary to the conspiracy theorist. Just because there will always be a certain percentage of people who will believe him. Hundreds of times all these conjectures were refuted by scientific calculations, archival documents, experiences, people who are ten times more knowledgeable and worthy than he is.

Better than the Leprosy is not said about him: Rezun, only of a different sense.

The mass of contemporaries of Stalin also called him a monster. And still part could not call him in any way from a certain moment. Because it was killed. Both the first and second were right. Even Hitler is not a completely black figure. Just because there is no black and white in life, there is no absolute, pure matter.

And if you undertake to read not Mukhin, but serious literature, the originals of scientific research, notes of famous scientists, writers, then, believe me, you will really know a lot more and look at the situation not from the angle of a pseudo-scientist, but from the perspective of a person who knows - it’s good You seem to love to read. This is not as easy to assimilate chewing gum as Yu.M. But this is food for the head, not slop.

[AlexxNik]

about the opinion of astronauts, a bunch of years ago I first heard the version about the cinema, namely from Leonov, but now, having wiser in the market, he already proves the opposite, dubious specialists, but techies and unnamed scientists in one voice shouted about getting on, but they organized "terror and obstruction "http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?chapter=20. according to Stalin, you can press cockroaches in the house as much as you want and everything will be fine, but if you just pinch the cat's tail, the effect will already be between neighbors, it is too strong he stepped on the tail and made many enemies by the end of his life, both internal and external, both of them needed to spoil the memory of him and his methods of work, so that Khrushchev is a revenge, and it is foolish to expect objectivity from him

[Pimply]

People are not cockroaches, dear.
Stalin, no doubt, is a person. However, a person who killed a very decent amount of his people and created his own cult. I repeat - there is no white and black.

There is evidence from Leonov and Grechko, there are works by Soviet scientists as well — and the USSR would not have missed pinching the tail of the United States if something had been wrong with the space program. You can cite individual articles as much as you like. But all the myths about Saturn-5, and about the lunar soil, shadows and other things, are disassembled 1000 times. In addition, there was more than one flight, remember?

[AlexxNik]

the price of statements of public people can be ignored, they are hostages of the situation, even without photo-shoots at a glance: not a single foreign witness of flights, the amers do not have an engine even at this moment, the use of our eagles on the ISS, because their spacesuits are poor and impractical in confined spaces , attempts to obstruct the tracking of Apollo starts, the quiet evacuation of a dummy of Apollo from Murmansk, caught by Soviet ships in Biscay, the complete demise of the exploitation of Saturn-5 and its wonderful engines, the dismissal of the general designer at the zenith of the program's success and staff cuts and much more in fact, to all the "evidence" a lot of claims. And according to Stalin, the cult is created by the court camarilla, and if they do not beat them on the hands, then after the deposition they are the first to shout about the cult, I will not be about billions, no one counted, they rewrite all of each other's speculations. There are numbers of those serving sentences for those years, so they do not differ much from the current ones, although now they should sit more

[Cynic]

Quote: AlexxxNik

even without

Mmmm ?!
Dear AlexxNik и Pimply Do not you think that you have a little deviated from the topic?
I could still understand if the conversation turned to the Luftwaffe pilots and attempts to conquer space by the Third Reich, and so ...

[Cynic]

Quote: Pimply

The USSR would not miss the pinch of the United States

Oh really ?
By the way, you quite often use non-invariant allusions as now.
Recently, you mentioned the supply of CCCP fuels and lubricants to Germany, as if allegedly not quite good.
Sorry, saying A had to say B!
No one likes quotes from Wikis, but I think these are fairly well-known facts.

Since October 1, 1931, the chief of staff of the inspector of motor forces. In the summer of 1932 he came to the USSR with an inspection at the Kama tank school near Kazan, together with his superior, General Lutz. Guderian himself never studied in Kazan.

I think you do not need to explain what Guderian inspected.

[Pimply]

I really argue 8)

No, not at all. And I do not think this is something bad. On the contrary, in many ways reasonable. You see, when in a dispute you come across not the cleverest obstinacy - like shouts "here they are! But here we are!", Which perceives only one side of the coin, you have to show the other. If he is aware, you can also show an edge. And then the rest of the medals, right?

[Cynic]

Quote: Pimply

like shouts "here they are! but WE are!"

But in life it’s always like this: Their vile spies and our valiant scouts!
Ce la via

[Pessimist]

Quote: Pimply

there are works by Soviet scientists still - and the USSR would not miss the pinch of the US tail if something was wrong with the space program.

It's to the point! In those days of space confrontation, the USSR and the United States closely watched each other. Moreover, our military tracked exactly the flight to the moon, takeoff back. Any "crap" was immediately revealed and the USSR would trumpet the whole world about lies!

[Cynic]

Quote: Pessimist

USSR to the whole world would trumpet

The stakes were very high, without agreement: No way!
Here the truth arises another question: Price. But this is a completely different issue.
By the way, I myself think: there were! It is indirectly confirmed by the fact that according to all sources this was such a gamble that only one Almighty knows how it worked.

[Kshatriy]

Quote: Pimply

Stalin, no doubt - a person

Bronstein is no doubt a person

Quote: Pimply

However, a person who has killed a very decent amount of his people

However, a person who killed a very decent number of ANOTHER people (concentration camps - "labor army - for lazy Russian pigs") .. I hope you read it yourself - "permanent revolution" ... If someone denies the genocide of the Russian people with 1918 to 1924 .. I will deny the genocide of the Jewish people in the 3rd Reich !!!!!!!!!

Quote: Pimply

created her cult

And why no one speaks about the cult of the hive-blank, whose corpse still stinks in the center of the capital of the Third Rome ????? "leader of the world proletariat" .... cool blah thesis .. and where is the "world proletariat" ??? ??????????????????

[Cynic]

Quote: AlexxxNik

a bunch of years ago

There is nothing secret that sooner or later would not become apparent.
We find out, we know for sure, but not now!
So far, all arguments are reduced to: This can not be, because this can never be!

[Alex]

Quote: Pimply

Tell me, is the opinion of Soviet cosmonauts zero for you?

On the issue of the presence of Americans on the moon and for me personally - zero and absolute. Nothing personal, but all of them are NOT SCIENTISTS, and they are no better at discussing high matters than those leading all sorts of mystical programs. Without diminishing their courage (to fly to hell with horns, riding a strategic missile on which, instead of a hydrogen bomb, the shell of a telephone box - I would have played something more than 100 km before the start), I still think that Caesar cesarean. Particularly interesting in this sense are the tales of Alexei Leonov: he saw everything in general: aliens on the moon, and UFOs in outer space.

[Vadivak]

Quote: Zynaps

fraud is another matter

Hans Beiswenger, who shot down 152 aircraft, died in mid-March 1943, but in some collections this fact is simply omitted.

Horst Hannig (98 victories) died, shot down by pilots of the 485 IAP on May 1, 1943. Meanwhile, it is alleged that he was shot down in the West after half a month.

Leopold Steinbatz (99 wins) has been reported missing. In fact, our anti-aircraft gunners shot him down on July 15, 1942.

Reinhard Seiler (109 victories) was shot down on July 5, 1943. On the contrary, the name of this pilot is generally not mentioned about his death.

[Pimply]

You are citing a rather controversial source - the newspaper "Top Secret", and even from 2000. There have always been mistakes in her - Mom, do not worry. I’m not saying it’s not true. But the article is not very well written, to put it mildly.

[I am human]

And it would be better for Bandera to be silent, maybe they will pass for the smart ...

[Vadivak]

Quote: pavlo

and fraudsters, ascribed to themselves victories so that you never dreamed

In August 1942, in North Africa, a flight of Lieutenant Vogel, commander of the fourth group of the 27th fighter squadron, shot down 65 enemy aircraft in a month. Departing on a mission, the German pilots entertained themselves in the following way: shooting ammunition in the sand, they returned to the airfield and reported on the "victories" won. When they were finally revealed, they just disbanded the link, leaving all victories intact.

[aviator46]

Surely there were postscripts -
but for each plane "shot down" the Germans, in addition to photographs taken with a photo-machine gun, had to submit a questionnaire of 21 items. And paragraph 9 required confirmation of witnesses that the plane was shot down ..

Ours, too, did not disdain postscripts -
Quote-
From the documents submitted by the headquarters of the divisions, it follows that during the period of the Crimean operation (from April 8.04 to April 20.04, 1944 inclusive), enemy units were destroyed by parts of the divisions:
Shot in air battles: 265 IAMD - 77 aircraft; IASSD 278 - 65. In total - 142 aircraft.
Destroyed by assault operations at enemy airfields: 265th IAMD - 48 aircraft; 278 IASSD - 26. In total - 74 aircraft.

Thus, a total of destroyed: 265 IAMD - 125 aircraft, 278 IASD - 91 aircraft. Total 216 aircraft.
It must be taken into account that at the same time as the units of the 3rd IAK in the Crimean operation, they acted on the enemy airfields of Il-2 and Te-2 and fought in the same intense air war other fighter units 8 VA and 4 VA, which, obviously, also destroyed the aircraft the enemy.

According to intelligence, it is known that by the beginning of the Crimean operation, the Germans had up to 270 different types of aircraft in the Crimea.
Hence it is extremely difficult to solve the question: how did the Germans multiply planes for destruction by our pilots?

[radar08]

In the battles for the Kuban it was the same but on the other hand. The Germans reported about nearly 2300 of our downed aircraft, and our losses amounted to about 800 aircraft. It must be borne in mind that a considerable part of these aircraft was shot down by anti-aircraft guns. Where the rest of the aircraft attributed. Ours also did not multiply.

[aviator46]

None of the German aces could, in principle, appear in the Soviet Air Force. So different were the tactical methods of warfare, so different were the views on their duties, that any comparison would be incorrect from the very beginning.
From here, in my opinion, there arises such a sharp rejection of their results, as a result of the unwillingness to UNDERSTAND AND UNDERSTAND. Well, in addition, everyone knows for sure that the Soviet elephant is the strongest in the world. Part of our historians can be understood. It is always difficult to part with myths; you have to tear them out of your memory with meat and blood.

For example, the first, completely paradoxical conclusion that arises after reading a book. Erich Hartmann did not have ANYTHING ANY air battle. So dear to the heart of our pilots, he rejected the air carousel in principle. Climbing, diving on the target, immediate departure. Shot down - shot down, not shot down - it doesn’t matter. The fight is over! If there is a new attack, then only by the same principle. Hartmann himself says that at least 80% of the pilots he shot down were not even aware of the danger. And all the more so no dodging over the battlefield to "cover up their troops." Incidentally, Pokryshkin once rebelled against this. “I can't catch bombs with my plane. We will intercept the bombers on the way to the battlefield. ” Intercepted, it turned out. And after the ingenious pilot received a hat. But Hartmann was only engaged in hunting. So his 800 fights would be more justly called air clashes, or something.

[Warrior with machine gun]

Mukhin "Assy and propaganda" is an explanatory book, there these "superheroes" were dismantled by bones along with all their tricks

[Pushkar]

Father told me he had a crew commander in the Pe-2 with 6 hours of flight.

[Ares1]

Quote: sancho

In fact, the boys with 20-30 hours of raids sat at the controls against these German Ases. After such flights, many did not return. And it’s not surprising that Hartman and others could have clicked on such a few holes for a flight.

I do not want to exalt the enemy in any way, but I must give due. Hartmann was born on April 19.04.1922, XNUMX. So what about the yellow mouth can be compared ...

[Vadivak]

Quote: sancho

I agree! The Germans are meticulous and accurate. And for the identified misinformation they could not stroke the head.

GÜNTER SCHEEL holds the world record for the speed of aircraft destruction. Over 70 sorties, he shot down 71 Soviet aircraft. Nobody succeeded in this: neither Hartman, nor Kozhedub, nor Johnson, nor Bongu. In order to shoot down a plane, you must first of all meet it. The number of sorties for all famous pilots is much greater than the number of battles. Scheel is the only exception. He met the enemy on every sortie. Scheel operated by the "free hunt" method, so no one saw the planes he destroyed. They believed him at his word. This record smells strongly of the "achievement" of the link of Chief Lieutenant Vogel.

[captain]

Dear forum participants, I recommend that you take an interest in the training system for fighter pilots among the Germans and with us before the war and during the war. The Germans have been preparing their for years.

[AvtoVAZ]

It is not true. This is an old Soviet pro-Pogandan legend. Basically, the number of aircraft shot down has been delivered. A large number of aircraft shot down by the Germans is conditioned by the "free hunt" tactics. The strategic tasks of the Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front, except for the initial stage, did not solve because of the complete superiority of Soviet aviation. Therefore, the Germans waged a kind of "partisan war". This increased the number of shot down, but did not contribute to the solution of strategic tasks. Read the book by Helmut Lipfert "Diary of a Luftwaffe Hauptmann", by the way he speaks very respectfully of Soviet pilots.

[Yuriy3005]

Once upon a time I read the memoirs of one Soviet pilot attack aircraft, and so he wrote that the planes returning to the airfield are sometimes not only honestly, but in a holy spirit, but they were restored in the field (!!!) and they again went into battle . But there were those who didn’t get to the airfield and got into an emergency on their territory, such planes were then brought and repaired. After all, someone also considered them shot down!
And here’s another interesting case, though it’s not true for aviation, I read in one magazine the recollections of one tanker.
In winter, 42 went on the attack, the attack was choked, and our heroes remained on a damaged T-34 (shot down rollers) in neutral territory (closer to the Germans), but the whole crew was healthy. In general, they threw a smudging oil rag on the engine, pretended to be knocked down and spent the night, repaired ... They are sitting thinking about how to get out, if they go, the Germans will notice and will finish it off completely. Early morning, they hear the sound of the engine, PzIII drives up to them and takes them in tow (!!!). Well, ours were not taken aback, wound up and cut the reverse gear. It’s not our Germans who couldn’t shoot, but in the end our Fritz dragged to themselves
But someone from the Fritzes wrote down this "padded" 34!
So it’s right to probably only consider an accurately confirmed irretrievably destroyed unit of enemy equipment, everything else from the category of speculation and theories

[AlexxNik]

Hartmann is a vivid example of a German school, with their radio communications and his own visual acuity, he, being in free hunting, was the first to notice the enemy, gain altitude, intercept, preferably lagging behind, a short attack and quick separation from the target due to the accumulated high speed. For a long time, this tactic worked, then the fighter building began, and our planes began to play faster and the second half of the Hartmann war had to be recreated from his (merciless) letters to a friend, the document book was lost, and his activities in the squadron magazine were much more modestly presented. no bending, no 50 \ 50, just accelerated, hit, fled. You can fill the number, but there’s nothing to be proud of

[sancho]

Concerning the conclusion: -
Of course, there were no photo machine guns or cameras on Junkers. The maximum that Rudel or his gunner-radio operator could notice: the covering of the column of armored vehicles, i.e. possible damage to tanks. The exit speed from the Yu-87 dive is more than 600 km / h, and the overloads can reach 5g, in such conditions it is impossible to accurately detect anything on the ground.
Since 1943, Rudel moved to the Yu-87G anti-tank attack aircraft. The characteristics of this “lappeter” are simply disgusting: max. horizontal flight speed - 370 km / h, rate of climb - about 4 m / s. The main weapon of the aircraft were two VK37 cannons (37 mm caliber, rate of fire 160 rds / min), with an ammunition load of only 12 (!) Shells per barrel. Powerful guns mounted in the wings created a big unfolding moment when firing and so rocked a light aircraft that firing in bursts was pointless - only single sniper shots.(R).

[radar08]

I agree completely. The number of departures per day is even more doubtful. In his book, Rudel writes about 14 sorties a day. This is fantastic. In general, the number of sorties per day for all German pilots is announced about 5-6 sorties. They say that is why so many shot down - they flew a lot. I talked with a fighter pilot - a war veteran. After three four sorties, not a single one. I do not think that all German pilots possessed supernatural physical fitness and did not know tired. If the regiment was forced to fly with such intensity, then after two weeks of fighting, less than one third of it remained. Physical and emotional stress is colossal. Fatigue builds up. Accordingly, loss of attention, reaction and, as a result, large losses. And the Germans in this mode, the whole war and nothing. Somehow it is doubtful. I think it is impractical to argue about accounts, it is not possible to prove documents. So the dispute is unpromising. But doubts are very big. Moreover, part of many of the successful pilots began to fight in the middle of the war 42-43 year. And the tasks before them were the same as ours. covering our bombers and confronting ours. Someone was doing this. What special parts were created for this.

[Poppy]

All our pilots in their memories say that the Germans did not like the "dog dump", i.e. maneuverable air combat. It flew in from behind the clouds, shot and bounced. They did not go to escort the bombers. Almost continuous free hunting. This is a clear loss of the sky. After all, the task of aviation is to support ground forces, and not to shoot down other fighters.

[borisst64]

I remember the film "Twice Born" (they say it was filmed based on real events), I wonder - were our pilots allowed such freedom? Or is it a free hunt, where I want to fly there.

[Taratut]

"The most popular was the theme of the Great Patriotic War - an inexperienced Soviet man was shocked by the results of the German aces - tankers, submariners and, especially, Luftwaffe pilots"
Yes, both their submariners, and tankers, and pilots have much more impressive results. Especially the submariners.

"Maybe the Germans simply did not know how to count?"
They were able to. I understand - to cheat in propaganda, in transmission. But why in the reports?
This harm brings considerable.

"The most prosaic explanation of the Luftwaffe phenomenon: the Germans had no shortage of goals"
So these goals themselves shoot. SKILL is needed to knock them down and not be knocked down by oneself.
If for the infantryman the Eastern Front was the most terrible place, then for the pilot it was just air defense. There are rarely anyone contrived to make many sorties and shoot down a lot. They didn’t live for a long time.

[Denzel13]

The reports are just the wrong numbers.

[Rink]

Quote: Taratut

I understand - to cheat in propaganda, in transmission. But why in the reports?

Ha!...
For pilots, overpriced reports are rewards, this is money, this is holidays, fame and photos in newspapers. For their command, this is a career, rapid growth in positions.
Home posts are direct material benefits for the entire regiment.
It is obvious.

[Zynaps]

Yes, both their submariners, and tankers, and pilots have much more impressive results. Especially the submariners.

only now they merged the war with such and such talents. and worse than scum, than Hitler’s submariners had to still look. despite the fact that the Germans in Kriegsmarine were enemies, but who had ideas about military honor.

Quote: Taratut

shallows. I understand - to cheat in propaganda, in transmission. But why in the reports?

and you ask them. according to German reports, the Red Army, along with people and equipment, was destroyed as many as five times.

[Taratut]

This is from a sick head to a healthy one. Did you read these reports?
So we really lied great.
A lot of examples. I’m not talking about propaganda, it’s enough to recall Stalin’s speech from 6.11.41.
In general, the general leaves the encirclement, he lost the division. Well, he writes a report of how many tanks he knocked out - so as not to be shot.

[Zerstorer]

Well, it was like that everywhere. The most correct option is to compare the losses and victories of the warring parties according to archival documents.

[Zynaps]

Quote: Taratut

This is from a sick head to a healthy one. Did you read these reports?

unlike you, wise guy, I read.

Quote: Taratut

So we really lied great.

you can see.

Quote: Taratut

In general, the general leaves the encirclement, he lost the division. Well, he writes a report of how many tanks he knocked out - so as not to be shot.

just shot for it. you look, or poke a dime?

[Zerstorer]

The enemy is always and everywhere the enemy. And "Bastards are traitors, policemen, etc.

[Taratut]

Quote: Poppy

They did not go to escort the bombers. Almost continuous free hunting. This is a clear loss of the sky. After all, the task of aviation is to support ground forces, and not to shoot down other fighters

Well yes. Did the Germans lose the sky?
Until mid-1943 they had complete dominance in the air.
Then all the more aircraft had to be thrown to the west, in air defense.
At the end of 1944, we were many times superior to the Germans.

[Zynaps]

perhaps the only time I agree with you. only in the year 44, the Germans were already superior not only numerically, but also in training - the best were already grinded.

[Poppy]

yes, the Germans lost the sky, that's a fact

[Taratut]

When? in 1944?

[Pushkar]

In 1943. Kuban.

[bistrov.]

The ratio of combat aircraft of the USSR / Germany thousand units: - November 1942 - 3,2 / 3,5; June 1943 - 8,4 / 3,0; January 1944 - 8,5 / 3,1; January 1945 - 15,5 / 2,0. As we can see already before the Stalingrad offensive, the Red Army practically reached parity. Then our superiority was simply overwhelming. As for the transfer of aircraft to the "western" front, it also does not correspond to reality, on the contrary, the transfers were carried out only from the western to the eastern front.

Quote: Taratut

Until mid-1943 they had complete dominance in the air.

[Midshipman]

They preferred this tactic because the materiel allowed them to do it. Naturally, they are not being fools used its advantage to the fullest. What's the point of turning with a seagull, which will turn you around early, it is wiser to "go down the mountain and have all the cows" and then quickly make your legs - they will not catch up anyway.

[kulpin]

The experience of using "Lightning" in the USAF speaks volumes about the same. While they were trying to spin the ballet with "Zero", they almost brought a unique machine to a write-off for "complete unusability". But how they got to the role of "high-altitude hunter" intended by the designers, and Yamamoto himself was overwhelmed. The problem of the Red Army Air Force is that we didn’t have such a huge "zagashnik" as the allies sitting behind our backs. It was not possible to create special units of "pure hunters". Therefore, the MIG, phenomenal for the start of the war, as they say, "did not fire."

[Oles]

Quote: Poppy

After all, the task of aviation is to support ground troops, and not to shoot down other fighters.

clinical case ... see a doctor ...

[Passing]

Quote: Tirpitz

to reduce the Germans 30-50 aircraft

It should be divided into two.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_лётчиков-асов_Второй

World War # cite_note-1

During World War II, according to German data, Luftwaffe pilots won about 70000 victories ...

However, the air force of the spacecraft lost 12189 aircraft in air battles and 15161 did not return from the combat mission (losses for all reasons - 39408), the naval aviation fleet, respectively, 423 and 244 units, and only a part of them could be shot down by enemy fighters (long-range aviation, air defense aviation and the Navy Air Force, for all reasons, lost combat losses, respectively: 2776, 1588, 4040 aircraft)

[snorry]

Manfred Albrecht Freicherr von Richthofen (Red Baron) imposed the same tactics in battle. I didn’t get involved in the battle when I saw that the defeat was 100% ...
But the Soviet aces undeniably fulfilling the order entered into any even unequal battles.

[Normal]

Quote: Snorri

But the Soviet aces undeniably fulfilling the order entered into any even unequal battles.

I read an interview with Popkov (the prototype of the "maestro"). So he describes Pokryshkin's tactics as follows; "came up at a high altitude, looked around, dived (beautifully, you can't take it away), shot down and left."
The "Zoom-Boom" tactic was used by almost all aces with a large number of victories, both German and ours, as well as Americans. No one liked to get involved in a "dog dump" or a maneuvering fight. Too great a risk of being shot down, and shot down not by an ace but by a completely ordinary pilot.

[Denzel13]

Read the memoirs of Pokryshkin, not just a zoom boom.

[Normal]

Quote: Denzel13

far from just a zoom boom.

Of course "zoom - boom" is not easy. This is the ultimate mathematics of air combat. Pokryshkin deduced the famous formula "height-speed-maneuver-fire" which, in general, is "zoom-boom" And to come to this Pokryshkin had to rethink all the tactics of our fighter aircraft, the entire system of air combat and preparation for it. For this he was respected. And he read his memoirs in his youth.

[Zynaps]

Quote: Snorri

But the Soviet aces undeniably fulfilling the order entered into any even unequal battles.

our fighters very rarely flew for free hunting. and then in the second half of the war. and for engaging in battle, if necessary, to accompany bombers or "hunchbacks" could anoint the forehead with green paint.

I had a relative (husband of my grandmother's younger sister) - a Pe-2 pilot, who fought on the Volkhov Front. his plane a few kilometers before the airfield left a cover - chased after a single German, was attacked by a suddenly appeared German fighter and shot down. the crew (and my relative too) died. what do you think they did to the fighters who threw them?

[Poppy]

it is known that - under the tribunal and the infantry

[Rink]

I read somewhere that in the Caucasus sector the total number of shot down Soviet planes filed by the Germans in their reports significantly (almost twice) exceeded the actual number of Soviet planes there.
This was discovered after the war, when we got the archives of the Germans.
Given that the Soviet units still had cars in service, the German postscript of their achievements should have been gigantic ...

This is the secret of the big accounts of German aces: they managed to account for the downing of more planes than the enemy had!

[Taratut]

Quote: Skating rink

I read somewhere that in the Caucasus sector the total number of shot down Soviet planes filed by the Germans in their reports significantly (almost twice) exceeded the actual number of Soviet planes there

Nonsense.
And here is a really interesting fact. See the battle for the Caucasus. There, the Germans in the air are the 4th air fleet of Richthofen. 1200 aircraft.
We watch the battle of Stalingrad. And here the Germans have the same fleet, 1200 aircraft. What a great split. At the same time, there and there he fought.

[Denzel13]

You don’t really have Taratut with the numbers, you yourself came up with it - you yourself believed in them. Firstly, before the arrival of 4 fleets near Stalingrad, there were already Luftwaffe forces there. During the Battle of Stalingrad, a total of about 3000 German aircraft were destroyed, 744 were captured. This tells you something.
Secondly, did you not pay attention to the time? When was the battle of Stalingrad, and when did the air battles over the Blue Line begin? Nobody split in two, study history more carefully. In addition, more than half of the aircraft that participated in the battle in the Kuban from the German side were previously based in the Crimea.

[Charon]

In the network toy Word Tanks, they are called fragment shooters.
They especially don’t like those who finish off an almost destroyed enemy, when he has already suffered a lot of damage from others, has lost the ability to resist (maneuver) and requires only one finishing shot. The destruction of such wounded animals does not require skill and tactical literacy.
I describe a toy, but it illustrates reality very well.

In the infantry, this is unrealistic. In aviation - I’m ready to believe.
Although, of course, even in such greenhouse conditions, the Germans are clearly overstated. Checked by historians.

[Yuriy3005]

In HERE even a wounded animal can shoot and cause a lot of harm to your team.
So what you described is easily explained by the instinct of self-preservation, if I can destroy the enemy (even if he is barely alive) I will destroy him, otherwise he will destroy me. It turns out that a seemingly ordinary toy perfectly illustrates the whole base essence of humanity. Victory at any cost.
And specifically about HERE, the game is too arcade, hepe for a tank, excuse me, nonsense, any tank can be destroyed with ONE shot. If anyone remembers at the first playstation there was a wonderful Panzer Front toy, so there weren’t any streaks of life there, you could hit the tank 50 times and never break, but you could destroy it with one shot and I remember how 34 ran away from the Tiger it was really interesting ...
The times of chivalrous grace were long gone, the Second World War was a war of survival, the unfinished enemy had to be destroyed, otherwise it could return to duty.
By the way, if I’m not mistaken when counting planes, Soviet pilots counted only precisely shot down planes (confirmed), they didn’t count the crashed !!!, and there was also an account of the planes shot down personally and in a group.

[comTMG]

As for the game. One shot happens .Sam on IS7 one shot with IS7. And me also with one shot. Also IS7. but that’s the game.

[Yuriy3005]

I’m not saying that they do not happen in principle, I’m for removing strips of life and the strength of the tank as such from the game, or, at worst, hiding them from the opposing team.
Damage to the tank and the main parts is enough, just in this case, the tactics of the game will change dramatically, and the whole team will not rush to finish off barely alive. In the end, in reality, there were no life strips above the tanks and there any even smoking piece of iron posed a real threat

[Num lock U.A.]

a game is a game, although it gives some idea of ​​the tactics and method of warfare, but it still remains only a game

[Zerstorer]

Quote: Tirpitz

I read Hartman's memoirs. He always tried to avoid carousels and not get involved in protracted fights. I saw, shot down and left here is his tactics. I always preferred flying at high altitudes and from close range shot at close range.

And Hartman did not like to attack bombers flying in formation - they could shoot down there. War is not a sport. It doesn't matter how much you hit or kill. The main thing here is whether you completed the combat mission or not. For example, our Il-2s fly out under the cover of Yak-1 to attack any node (Il-2 - 4 units, Yak-1 - 4 units). They are greeted by four Bf-109s (choose the modification to taste) headed by the "ace". Let's assume that the Germans shoot down all 4 Yak-1s guided by their "excellent tactics" and do not suffer losses. Il -2 they shoot down when they have already worked on the target. As a result, the score is 8: 0 in favor of the Germans? But what about the damage that IL-2 organized for them? And the German tactics of Ace and his team are incorrect from the point of view of combat effectiveness, since instead of normal aggressive work, they take care of their ace. For example, when covering strike planes, cover fighters need only calculate this ace and concentrate attacks on him - then no one will deal with bombers. Everyone will cover their one and only. I think so for these aces, the combat pilots did not feel much love: Not only do the aces do not go into battle to cover their own, but they also need to be covered.

[Glavmec]

Traditionally, in the spirit of Kaptsov: article - shit from the category "a cockroach without legs does not hear"!

All their achievements are explained only by the fact that in the air there were many enemy aircraft. Allied aces fighters, on the contrary, needed time to find the enemy - according to statistics, even the best Soviet pilots had an average of 1 air battle for 8 sorties: they simply could not meet the enemy in the sky!

This is a kind of brave Erich one for ten Ivanov: "Well, now I'm knocking you down!" And ... knocks down ?! Four, ess-but. The other six are patiently waiting for their sad fate, or when will Hartmann run out of gasoline? Zybansko!

[Yuriy3005]

The most powerful weapon in any war is propaganda. It doesn't matter how many planes Hartman, Novotny and others actually shot down, how many tanks Vitman knocked out. The main thing is to create a legend so that ordinary soldiers would try to repeat their exploits or "deeds". So these figures should be treated very carefully.
And the main thing is not to harass or extol strangers, but to write, tell and show more about your aces. You look at youth and will be imbued with past feats of ancestors

[sancho]

Further, getting into the tank does not guarantee its defeat. An armor-piercing projectile (685 grams, 770 m / s) fired from a BK37 cannon punched 25 mm of armor at an angle of 30 ° from the normal. When using sub-caliber ammunition, armor penetration increased 1,5 times. Also, due to the aircraft’s own speed, the armor penetration in reality was still more by about 5 mm. On the other hand, the thickness of the armored hull of the Soviet tanks only in some projections was less than 30-40 mm, and there was nothing to dream about hitting KV, IC or heavy self-propelled gun in the forehead or board.
Here, clearly, the author was picking his nose .... Ju-87, is a dive bomber, and he did not have to get into the tank's profile, he hit right in the dark. And, for this, one twin shot from the guns was enough. The diving angle of the Ju-87 reached 80 degrees, plus they had brake flaps, which made it possible to stabilize the machine for the accuracy of a shot (discharge). Yes! The author forgot that the planes had pylons for hanging bombs of various masses. Something the author forgot about it! Weird! When hit 250 kg. bombs even on board the tank will not leave a chance for the repair team to assemble a designer ....
And, if you analyze operations at sea -
i] On January 10, 1941, the British aircraft carrier Illastries became the first big success of the "pieces", six 250-kg bombs hit it, three more exploded right on the side, causing serious damage to it. On January 11, the burned aircraft carrier began repairs in the harbor of La Valletta. Its carrier-based aircraft operated from airfields in Malta, shooting down four Ju-87s in the following days. During the two-week stay "Illastries" received two more direct hits from "pieces", and three bombs exploded near the side. However, four direct hits of 1000-kg bombs, which, in the opinion of the pilots Hozzel and Ennekerus, were enough to sink it, were not achieved. Having somehow repaired the damage, on the night of January 24, the aircraft carrier barely "took off" through the Suez Canal to the United States for repairs.
In general, the article is amusing. In the sense of a statement of facts and justification.
One thing is for sure. The German Ases had more experience, allowing them to have an advantage until the 43rd year. Then things went worse.

[Passing]

Quote: sancho

Ju-87, is a dive bomber, and he did not have to get into the tank's profile, he hit right in the dark. And, for this, one twin shot from the guns was enough ... Yes! The author forgot that the planes had pylons for hanging bombs of various masses. Something the author forgot about it! Weird! When hit 250 kg. bombs even aboard the tank.

You disprove yourself:

Quote: sancho

On January 10, 1941, the British aircraft carrier Illastries became the first big success of the "pieces", six 250-kg bombs hit it, three more exploded right on the side, causing serious damage to it.

They even got into the aircraft carrier with difficulty! IN THE CARRIER !!! And then some kind of tank.

[Passing]

Quote: sancho

Advice to you. Practice a little need for a beer glass against the wind.

At your advice, I went to the balcony, checked. I didn’t get into the bank! Exactly the same winds and whirlwinds interfere!

Quote: sancho

Moreover, for you, of all the "air defense" trunks, in contrast to land operations, there was practically no air defense.

Since the bombs fell nearby, it means they didn’t interfere, so they didn’t turn away from the fire and continued on the same course toward the target. Or, in your opinion, they dived in a zigzag, flying around oncoming shells ???

[Midshipman]

With two large-caliber guns 1000 kg bomb? Ju 87B - could carry one 1000-kg bomb, but without a radio gunner and for short distances /

[Alex]

Quote: sancho

from all "PVO" barrels

Anti-aircraft artillery of aircraft carriers of the “Illastries” type: 8 × 2 114-mm and 6 × 8 40-mm Pom-Pom. For a couple or two bombers - of course, a mortal threat; for an attacking air group - no more than a regular situation. And especially considering that the J-87 was about fifty.

By the way.
1: Admiral Cunningham wrote that most of the bombs were 500 kg (1000 pounds). Well, God bless him, that's not the point.
2. All air defenses were blown away by even not a single aircraft. Five of them shot down the Fulmars raised by that time. So there’s just no reason to talk about some insurmountable air defense.

[Passing]

And now, advice to you: jump from the balcony, and when you reach a speed of 400 km / h, try to hit the target at an angle, and from a height of 1000 meters, and if the target at that height is the size of a speck of dust, and you naturally have no optics, and a ballistic computer no, and it’s impossible to get there, try a little later, 300m - past, 200m - past, 100m - past, 1m - there is a hit! True, you will not have time to get out of the dive, but these are insignificant trifles.

[tuts]

do not compare any tank without anti-aircraft cover on the march with an aircraft carrier stuffed with anti-aircraft guns

[Passing]

Quote: tots

do not compare any tank without anti-aircraft cover on the march with an aircraft carrier stuffed with anti-aircraft guns

And what, all planes calling on the attack were shot down by anti-aircraft gunners? And why, those who were not shot down nevertheless didn’t fall on such a simply gigantic target as a 50000 ton ship?
And why, even without interference from anti-aircraft fire, these same aircraft should easily hit the target a thousand times smaller?

[tuts]

the task of the anti-aircraft gunner is not to bring down but to create a wall of fire so that the plane cannot fly up to the target

tanks in most cases do not have such a cover, so it is much easier to dive on it, although it is smaller in size

[Alex]

Quote: tots

do not compare any tank without anti-aircraft cover on the march with an aircraft carrier stuffed with anti-aircraft guns

First, look at the data on "Illastries" and if it is "stuffed", then I am the Japanese emperor.
Secondly: on the march (or maybe even on railway platforms), any tank is easy prey. So they say the same thing - throw bombs around the convoy and see if they hit it or not - it’s not yet to destroy

[Vanya]

if they couldn’t get into an aircraft carrier, then to achieve a direct hit on a much smaller tank is generally a problem

[tuts]

on the column is not a problem at least one yes you get
our silt 2 generally dropped from one call to 220 pubs

[Passing]

The logic is amazing - since our tar flyer makes 600 shots, it means that each Fritz shot at the company of our soldiers from the Mauser. And here are German dive pilots! How many times did they throw away?

[tuts]

I'm talking about the attack and not small arms
in small arms analogue will be dagger fire

I repeat once again into the column of tanks without anti-aircraft cover to get much easier than in an aircraft carrier with security ships

I understand that your opinion is more correct for you, therefore I suggest downloading the game IL -2 attack aircraft modification 1946 (if I’m not mistaken) and try to storm the column of tanks and the aircraft carrier with security

[Passing]

Quote: tots

I propose to download the game IL-2

Is there a scenario for an attack on the aircraft carrier Illastries? I think not, so there is no point. However, I agree that if the anti-aircraft fire is dense, then the bombers simply will not last until the bomb is dropped. But I’m not talking about that, I’m saying that someone still flies, but all the same smears terribly.
I propose to do it easier, and consider the example with the English aircraft carrier more specifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Illustrious_(R87)
HMS Illustrious
Armament: (1940)
48 x QF 2 pounder naval gun (6 × 8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_2_pounder_naval_gun
Rate of fire 115 rpm
Those. the aircraft carrier at that moment was 8 anti-aircraft guns. Four guns on board with a total rate of 460 rounds per minute on board. How many attacked there? At least nine. Well, where did the dense obstruction fire come from if there was one anti-aircraft gun for two aircraft!

[tuts]

48 x QF 2 pounder naval gun (6 × 8)

48 anti-aircraft guns for this and served

[sancho]

Gentlemen "Passing", "Tuts", I will not understand everything because of what is such a dispute going on? In general, the topic was about the Assov Luftwaffe. And, not about the probability of hitting each flight.

February 26, 1941 38 Ju-87R from P. / StGl and III./StGl "in company" with 32 other types of bombers made the first raid on Malta. The target was Luka airfield. The bombing put the airfield out of action for two days, it also destroyed six Wellingtons and damaged seven, six more Hurricanes were shot down by cover fighters. The result was achieved at the cost of seven lost and several damaged "pieces", and the commander III./StGl Hauptmann Malhke brought 185 holes, including a huge hole in the right plane. In other raids on Malta on 5 and 23 March, anti-aircraft guns and fighters shot down five Ju-87s and seriously damaged another.

By April 1941, the 10th air corps of General Richthofen was transferred to the Balkans from France. It consisted of headquarters, I and IIl / StG2 and I / StG3. In total, Richthofen had 414 Ju-87, of which on April 5, 352 were combat-ready. Later they were joined by 127 Ju-87s from the three StG77 groups.

By April 20, a large number of ships had accumulated in the port of Piraeus. In two days, the "pieces", practically without opposition, sank 23 Greek and English ships in the Gulf of Corinth, turning it into a ship graveyard. Pilots from I./StG2, led by H. Hichhold, distinguished themselves by destroying two tankers and one transport on April 21.

Bombing tactics known - ... The Italians began to practice attacks, having built themselves in a circle, the center of the circle was a ship - the object of attack. The radius of the circle avoided the zone of the most effective anti-aircraft fire. After the ship began to maneuver, the pilots went on a dive from the side course angles ...

With this method, the probability of hitting and density was higher.
You are considering single bombing and shooting. AND! Again, do not forget that the bombing is effective on the accumulation of targets, and not single (one tank), this is with regards to the JU-87.

And, for ME-109, Asses of the Luftwaffe from the fighter squadrons were really engaged in single-handed hunting, and this increased their score, as many have already written about - shot down, left. Other pilots were involved in escorting bombers and repelling attacks ....

Why are you arguing over the angles of attack, the thickness of the armor, facts, there are facts.

[Passing]

Actually, I am arguing about the lone aces, about the fact that it is quite difficult for a dive bomber to hit a tank. Because of the shooting from guns and bombing "by eye".
Actually, it’s enough to see the accuracy of shooting and bombing of the Su-25, even after modernization, with the latest electronic brains, accuracy is by no means centimeters, but meters. Those. only now has it become possible a guaranteed (100%) defeat of a target the size of a tank.
From a rapid-fire machine gun, in those days, of course, it was possible to get into without problems - guidance on tracers, but in a large caliber this does not work.

[sancho]

Well, not everything was so bad -
.....Field Marshal Kesselring later wrote about the fighting on the Eastern Front: “It was the rule that attack aircraft cleared the way for advancing troops, primarily for tank groups, acting exclusively precisely in front of them on the battlefield.” In the winter of 1941/42, the front in the East stabilized and the actions of attack aircraft began to acquire a slightly different character. The same Kesselring noted: "The battles became fierce, and now attack pilots were required to act against the T-34 even in the worst weather conditions."
The relatively small range of Ju-87 could not but affect their tactics. Flying deep into enemy territory to the border of the radius of action was very rare and was carried out only at the initial stage of the war, when there was no threat from enemy fighters. To increase the time the attack aircraft stayed over the battlefield, the Luftwaffe command was forced to have their airfields as close to the front line as possible. This had its negative consequences, and the Ju-87 pilots more than once had to defend their airfields from Soviet units that suddenly broke through the front.
Initially, the "Pieces" to ensure surprise, as well as to avoid anti-aircraft fire from the ground, approached the target at an altitude of about 6 thousand meters. However, during the sorties it was found that such a great height was not required. In assault aircraft, radio communications have always been strictly limited during combat sorties. This was one of the basic prerequisites for the successful completion of tasks. If possible, the attack was carried out by Ju-87 against the wind and from the sun. Using air brakes during a dive at an angle of 70 ° reduced the speed from 650 to 450 km / h, which allowed the pilot to aim more accurately.
Depending on the type of target, the Stuk pilots used two main attack methods: diving at an angle of 60 - 90 ° from an altitude of 2000 - 5000 m and dropping bombs at an altitude of 700 - 1000 m, as well as a shallow diving at an angle of 20 - 50 ° s altitude 700 - 1500 m with the dropping of bombs at an altitude of 300 - 600 m. In this case, initially the direction to the target was roughly determined by the position of the longitudinal axis of the aircraft, and only then special sights began to be used. A scale of diving angles from 30 to 90 ° was plotted on the side glass of the lantern, and the pilot needed only one glance to determine the angle at which he dives.

Further below.

[Passing]

Quote: tots

48 anti-aircraft guns for this and served

6 × 8 are eight six-barreled submachine guns with a rate of fire of 115 rounds per minute each.

[sancho]

Continued

... The attacks of the bridges were mainly carried out at large diving angles and, if possible, in the direction of the axis of the bridge and against the wind, in order to reduce the likelihood of lateral drift of bombs. The destruction of railway lines was mainly carried out with a gentle dive by large-caliber bombs. The trains were also attacked from a gentle dive at a slight angle to the direction of their movement, while the bombs with an explosion delay were dropped one after another to cover the entire train. The ships, which were the most profitable target for the Ju-87, were almost always attacked from a steep dive. Here, for the success, the height of the drop of bombs was crucial, and the lower it was, the greater the probability of being hit.
With the change in the general situation during World War II, the actions of attack aircraft against advancing enemy tanks became increasingly important. Tanks were the smallest and therefore the most difficult target for the Ju-2. Against them, attacks from a gentle dive with dropping bombs from a height of 87 to 100 m were widely used. Usually, only attacks on large groups or convoys of tanks brought success, and only with the advent of the Ju-300G, armed with two 87-mm cannons, a successful fight became possible and with separate tanks. Pilots of Ju-37G attacked tanks from behind from a gentle dive at an angle of 87 - 15 °, aiming at the roof of the engine compartment, which had the thinnest armor.
To defeat well-fortified targets, high-explosive 50-1000-kg bombs were used, fragmentation 1-500 kg bombs were used against infantry columns and vehicles, while small-caliber anti-personnel bombs SD-1 and SD-2 weighing 1 and 2 kg were placed in special containers. To increase the radius of destruction of fragmentation bombs, in May 1941, 50 kg bombs began to be used in attack aircraft, in which a special rod 60 cm long with a metal disk with a diameter of 8 cm at the end was installed in the nose. Thanks to this simple device, dubbed “Dinorta Asparagus”, the bombs now exploded at about 30 cm above the ground, significantly increasing the radius of flight of fragments.
Bombs were dropped all at once, in pairs or in any other sequence of the pilot's choice. At the time of the bomb drop, the pilot should not have made any sharp maneuvers, otherwise he risked damaging the trapezoid mechanism that diverted the bomb from the fuselage, or even losing a part of the propeller, not to mention the fact that in this case there was a real threat of a bomb explosion.

See below

[Alex]

Quote: tots

I propose to download the game IL-2

Clearly, another computer strategist was found. I have one sixth grader at school, so he is in such an ace at WOT - Witman nervously smokes on the sidelines. I can give you the coordinates, you and him will form an excellent tandem: you soak everyone in the air, he is unsurpassed on earth. So you will be in Berlin in a couple of days, not like us miserable.

[Alex]

Quote: tots

on the column is not a problem at least one yes you get
our silt 2 generally dropped from one call to 220 pubs

In this, the effectiveness of the PTABs is small in size, large in number, and with high striking ability. Or 250 kilogram bombs can also be emptied, like peas from a bag?

[RUS-36]

Even in our time, a direct hit by an uncontrolled projectile (missile) on an armored target, you need to be able to do this and the percentage of hits is far from 50% to 50% .. we have an air training range and front-line bombers train, a friend serves there and says directly what and how .. And what can I say about the Second World War and those bombing aces .... it turns out that the Germans out of 10, 7-8 should hit the target with heavy fire and counteraction of the aircraft ...... do not drive ..... this the feeling that there were laser markers ....
And the planes at the airdromes were taken into account ... when the Germans burned them in dozens of standing ..

[sancho]

Continued

There was no exact demarcation line between the tasks of destroying specific targets and the direct support of troops. Their only difference was that the attack on a specific point target was usually carried out by a whole group, which with sufficient reliability guaranteed its destruction, and at the same time all the planes had the same target. For example, 30 Ju-87 from StG2 under the command of Oberst Lieutenant Dinort during training in the Caen region in Normandy, diving one after the other at an angle of 70 °, for 22 seconds. dropped all the bombs right on target, which served as a cross laid out on the ground. During the flights to the direct support of the troops, each aircraft already had a separate specific target. However, gradually the first task, which fully justified itself at the initial stage of the war, with the course of military operations more and more faded into the background, while the second became the main one.

[Deformator]

The anti-tank variant G did not have air brakes and bomb weapons, and could not dive with large angles.

[Charon]

Toy attack aircraft IL-2. Drop a bomb into a tank. Then we'll talk.

[Zerstorer]

Quote: Charon

Toy attack aircraft IL-2. Drop a bomb into a tank. Then we'll talk.

Let's complicate - into a moving tank.

[Kibb]

There is a photo on which the Yu87 sculpts in a tank with a single bomb. I didn’t find it in the net, but here’s the GDR book in front of me, maybe Kars will find it, but it’s not clear at all why?

[Kars]

Did the Germans have PTAs?
And as for the bomb - and why not, even a direct hit is not necessary.

[Kibb]

Do not hesitate, you will find a picture?

[radar08]

The brake flaps on the cannon variant of the J-87 were absent and he was not considered a dive-pilot to be transferred to the category of attack aircraft. And on this option, Rudel fought mainly.

[Alex]

Quote: sancho

And, if you analyze operations at sea -
i] On January 10, 1941, the British aircraft carrier Illastries became the first big success of the "pieces", six 250-kg bombs hit it, three more exploded right on the side, causing serious damage to it.

Is this an illustration of tremendous effectiveness? The aircraft carrier, which had an area of ​​about 6000 square meters, got only three bombs and almost three more hit (this is from the Odessa nomination for success). What then can we say about bombing a tank, the area of ​​which is about 6-7 square. m? I agree, the T-34 armor is not a battleship board, but the conditions, to put it mildly, are also not very good. So find other examples where the dive-bombers stormed the tanks (and indicating exactly how: on the march or on the battlefield) and what are the results (how many irretrievable losses, how many repaired).

[Taratut]

Most of our people sang not skilled specialists (remember the same Lavrinenko or Kolobanov), but martyrs. Those who died.
The perfect hero. He accomplished a feat and died. He will not say anything wrong, will not serve as a policeman (like one of the Panfilov’s men).
I was always amazed at the feat of closing an embrasure.
In other armies this was not. Why by yourself?
Attack under the cover of a smoke screen, throw grenades. Get around.
Shoot this loophole with artillery fire. No, there are many soldiers, let them cover them with their bodies.

[Pessimist]

Quote: Taratut

In other armies this was not. Why by yourself?
Attack under the cover of a smoke screen, throw grenades. Get around.
Shoot this loophole with artillery fire. No, there are many soldiers, let them cover them with their bodies.

And if there is neither one nor the other? Has the disguised pillbox suddenly "come to life", point-blank? And the whole family was burned by the Germans? The psychology of war ... It's hard for us to understand ... But it is possible.

[Taratut]

Quote: Pessimist

And if there is neither one nor the other?

And I about it. There is nothing. And there are many soldiers.

[RUS-36]

Taratut
You are generally far from the truth .... but you forgot about three cartridges per person and a rifle for two, and the enemy machine gun did not save cartridges, and hundreds of soldiers went to attack. Yes, there were stupid orders (meaningless), but there were NO meaningless deaths in that war, each soldier of the Red Army fulfilled its task, which it would not be ...... It seems that you are from another planet or from the USA ... .

[Zynaps]

Quote: RUS-36

but forgot about three cartridges per person and a rifle for two

this is a dumb liberalistic myth. there were rifles, and there were cartridges, and even their consumption did not satisfy the command - the soldiers who did not sniff gunpowder simply lay and did not stick out. the historian Alexei Isaev said that he expected a lot in terms of "one rifle for three" from digging in the archives of the defense of Leningrad by the local militia. so shit. they raked out rifles and three-inch tsarist-made rifles from the storerooms, and people went into battle with weapons. but the level of training of the militia is to shoot the clip and several blows on the stuffed animal with a bayonet and butt. that's the point.

only two cases are known for certain when soldiers went into battle armed with grenades alone. near Odessa in the summer of 1941 - a detachment of Donetsk miners who had come to replenishment was urgently sent to close the gap in the front sector where the Germans and Romanians broke through. the second case - the newly formed brigade was thrown into battle, not having time to get weapons, only with grenades, to free Tikhvin. after the battle, it was jokingly called "grenadier". but the miners died - a good monument to them was recently erected near Odessa.

[Taratut]

For the first time I agree. Of course, everything happened. But not in bulk.
Indeed, the enemy held back the artillery. But the soldiers fired little. I read once the report - for a week of fierce battles, on average, they spent three rounds on a rifle.

[Charon]

Oh, what a tactician! Oh well done! I'm just fucking crazy.
And if you don’t have smoke and just grenades?
Come on, you put the three-ruler in my embrasure and try to shoot me in the dark.
And after I put a megazine in you with a pistol, go around and smell the door to the bunker. Piss on her. May I suffocate from the stench.
Of course you are smarter than Alexander Matrosov. After all, he did not have the Internet.

[RUS-36]

Charon Son, have you even served in the army ... ??? I teach tactics .... and I have had enough practice in my life ...
Oh, by the way, you yourself wished it .... you have such schizophrenic fantasies.

Your desire to suffocate from the stench worries me, but are you sick ???

[Charon]

Thank you for worrying about my health. But I am healthy.
True, other indefatigable fantasies are sometimes unbalanced. Yes, there is one.
Have you had enough practice in your life? Do I understand correctly, grandpa, that you, in the absence of grenades, shoved a rifle into a German embrasure and tried to shoot a machine gunner?
And what did the Germans shout in response? Nicht Schissen?
I once read a lot of memoirs. And no one described such luck.
Judging by the reaction, you succeeded more than once. I heartily congratulate you on a phenomenal success. All fighters of the Red Army in comparison with you, my dear, suckers.

[RUS-36]

Read your comments Charon Yesterday, 21:59 ↑ 1
Oh, what a tactician! Oh well done! I'm just fucking crazy.
And if you don’t have smoke and just grenades?
Come on, you put the three-ruler in my embrasure and try to shoot me in the dark.
And after I put a megazine in you with a pistol, go around and smell the door to the bunker. Piss on her. May I suffocate from the stench.
These are your words .... so that only you are sick here ... your drool is flying because you are a Troll .... and you didn’t answer, you were in the army ??? I think your gut is thin ... the army you went through in your memoirs ...
To judge people who fought how they could have given you no rights, they had to go to the embrasure ... in short - Troll, everything is clear with you ..

[Charon]

Ek took you apart, my friend. I see you from my post did not understand anything. Nothing at all. I will not chew. Think you won the discussion.

[RUS-36]

Charon ... Mutually ...

[Charon]

Mutually? No. You just didn’t understand anything. But I will not put a minus. It is also necessary to earn it.

[RUS-36]

Charon .. Just don't cry ....

[Charon]

Oh my God!
What misery ... And I spent time communicating with THIS inadequate! Indeed, there is something to be upset about.
I repeat, consider that you have argued with me. And let you dream something nice.

[Taratut]

So I’m talking about.
The American army has grenades, smoke bombs.
And no one will run hordes of machine guns.
Because they do not fight "at any cost".
And we have women give birth, business something.

[Deformator]

For the American army, the question of "any price" has not yet arisen. She always fought in a foreign land.

[Zynaps]

Quote: Taratut

The American army has grenades, smoke bombs.

if cho, the American army was the only one that had time to prepare well for war on a theater that was remote from them (a simple matter in this case) and the only one equipped all its soldiers with self-loading rifles. only trouble came to them from where they did not wait. for example, in the Ardennes and near Bastogne, they froze in their boots with mild European frosts so that only sanitary losses reached the size of the division.

Quote: Taratut

And no one will run hordes of machine guns.

Yes, how can I tell you, expert. during the German offensive in the Ardennes
the allies even had to use detachments in their worst incarnation - in the form of machine guns.

Quote: Taratut

Because they do not fight "at any cost".

in a foreign country you can fight and not at all costs. it is only a matter of motivation.

Quote: Taratut

And we have women give birth, business something.

American and other democratic women have forgotten how to give birth? Poor, Poor Dumb Pindos (TM).

maybe you will even indicate the exact source of the phrase about "women still give birth"? will you take a chance?

[Taratut]

Long comment, but what's the point?
What detachments? What division is frostbitten in the Ardennes?
Where do you read that?

Quote: Zynaps

what a powerful expert opinion. at least you served in the army

Served. Carpathian Military District, 1985-87.

[Zynaps]

Quote: Taratut

What detachments? What division is frostbitten in the Ardennes?

You see how much is new. only you dig in one petrified shit.

if you don’t know the story of American boots in winter, what's the use of it ...

Quote: Taratut

Where do you read that?

on the advice of good people, I buy and pump out solid literature. if you don’t know about something, this does not mean that it was not.

[Zynaps]

Quote: Taratut

I was always amazed at the feat of closing an embrasure.
In other armies this was not. Why by yourself?

what a powerful expert opinion. did you even serve in the army, guardian for the lives of soldiers? why aren't you heroing in the Caucasus?

here's an introduction. grenades are thrown, shots fired. the firing point seems to be suppressed. but how to check? here an uninhabited company stands in a chain and the machine gun comes to life. you stand next to the enemy firing point without a fucker and stupidly watch your comrades mow down from a machine gun. but it's you. and real people gave their only life for their friends. and not so that their cold jona would discuss their deed.

[Alex]

Quote: Yuri3005

And the main thing is not to harass or extol strangers, but to write, tell and show more about your aces. You look at youth and will be imbued with past feats of ancestors

This is absolutely correct! I’ll only add that maybe then less noodles will hang on my ears.

[redcod]

Among the Germans, fighter aircraft almost constantly fought in the "free hunt" style. They themselves chose their targets, attacked from above at speed and quickly left. Our fighters mainly served to escort bomber and attack aircraft. At the same time, the goal for our pilots was only one - to drive off enemy fighters, and keep the escorted as much as possible. Only at the end of the war did Soviet fighters begin to practice "free hunting", when the Germans had practically no aircraft left. Hence the difference in the bill.

[Tourist Breakfast]

Quite right! Judging by the memoirs of the same Pokryshkin, he flew both for reconnaissance and for escorting bombers. Soviet fighters were also involved in bombing assault strikes. And guys like Hartman were mainly engaged in "free hunting". Hence the accounts of hundreds shot down.

[Passing]

Quote: Tourist's Breakfast

Hence the accounts of hundreds of shot down.

Hence the arrogant postscripts, there are no witnesses! But Goebbels has an urgent need for propaganda.
Our situation is just the opposite, we fought in groups, you can’t name the numbers from the bulldozer, there are plenty of witnesses, so the downed planes were counted only after confirmation from other sources.

[Kars]

Quote: Passing by

only after confirmation from other sources

We were still raiding for the shot down money, but worse than the accountant there is no beast))))

[Passing]

I read somewhere that in reality, they didn’t get much money on their hands, partly they voluntarily (I was without sarcasm) donated to the defense fund, and partly, at the end of the war, the tops were simply written off, such as the country needs to be restored.

[Zynaps]

Quote: Passing by

and part, at the end of the war, the top simply wrote off, such as the country must be restored.

and did the right thing. they also carried out a monetary reform in 1947 - the Germans managed to throw in fakes, and the money was greatly devalued for the war. With that devastation, it was impossible to buy practically anything with that money - what was the point of having it in your hands or accounts with a dead weight. large sums of money have accumulated mainly with speculators. for 1000 rubles, which paid the pilot for the shot down "piece" could only buy a bottle of vodka.

[psdf]

Something about the tops written off did not meet. Can you remember where?

[Midshipman]

Do not drill - read the memoirs for the sake of decency, where the money for the sales went and how the confirmation was established

[Denzel13]

Yes, under Stalin, money paid to the wrong place immediately to places not so remote from the North Pole, and even if the judge is in a good mood.

[Taratut]

Are you talking about the famous "Stalinist order"?
You should not do this. The mess was enough even then.
The "black market" has not gone anywhere.

[Cynic]

Quote: Passing by

from other sources.

In particular, ground services / units!
And if you fell behind the front line?
I think receiving from the Wehrmacht confirmation of a downed plane was more than problematic.

[Pessimist]

Quote: Cynic

And if you fell behind the front line?

Then from agents or partisans. Otherwise, they did not count. And the Germans - had enough of a film camera!

[Denzel13]

They also filled out a special form, if the memory does not change 11 points there. This form was signed by another pilot from the group and that’s it. And they exchanged papers for signature.

[radar08]

There are 21 points, but the essence does not change. The paper does not blush.

[Stas57]

I came across one thing, the Germans had a really shot down plane, which was even confirmed by our photo, which is a rarity for the 41, so they wrote it to their pilot, division and regimental anti-aircraft guns, this is what happens with the calculations.

[Midshipman]

In the conditions of the mess of the 41st, this probably happened not infrequently, but from the 43rd they meticulously dealt with every shot down and even conflicts were about this.

[Midshipman]

They received from partisans, from local residents after their release, from visiting commissions, from group members. Nobody believed the word.

[flanker7]

The MOST brief and at the same time logical explanation of the "phenomenon of German ases" Definitely +

[psdf]

If I remember correctly, from a certain point in time only downed planes confirmed by the airborne aerospace test posts were counted. Someone in the memoirs seems to have had a very well-described interaction structure. And on the insert there were archived photographs of magazines with notes in the confirmation boxes. But whose memoirs - I do not remember.

[Pimply]

There, it seems, the first experience of using unguided missiles was described, right?

[Aleksys2]

Three times Hero of the Soviet Union Ivan Kozhedub destroyed 64 German aircraft in air battles (plus 2 American Mustangs shot down by mistake)

Not by mistake. Mustangs were the first to attack Kozhedub:

In April 1945, Kozhedub drove off a pair of German fighters from the American B-17 in a defensive line and immediately noticed a group of approaching aircraft with unfamiliar silhouettes. The leader of the group opened fire on him from a very long distance. With a coup d'etat, Kozhedub swiftly attacked the extreme. He greatly smoked and with a decline went towards our troops. Having made a half-loop combat turn from an inverted position, the Soviet ace fired at the leader - he exploded in the air. Of course, he had already examined the white stars on the fuselages and wings and returned to himself with concern: a meeting with the Allies promised trouble.
Fortunately, one of the downed pilots managed to escape. To the question "Who knocked you down?" he replied: "Focke-Wulf" with a red nose. "
The regiment commander P. Chupikov gave Kozhedub the tapes showing the victories over the Mustangs.
- Take them to yourself, Ivan ... do not show anyone.

[Taratut]

But is this not a mistake? It was the Soviet aircraft that they wanted to bring down?

[Zynaps]

and who in this case is shaking? American eagles had to rub their eyes to begin with. or should Kozhedub nobly allow himself to be knocked down?

[Alex]

Quote: Zynaps

and who in this case is shaking? American eagles had to rub their eyes to begin with. or should Kozhedub nobly allow himself to be knocked down?

Yes, standard Amer’s arrogance: we can (read, the highest scattering) everything is possible, if that’s what politicians with a Hollywood smile will then explain everything to and make you guilty.

[Dobrokhod Sergey]

Quote: Aleksys2

Three times Hero of the Soviet Union Ivan Kozhedub destroyed 64 German aircraft in air battles (plus 2 American Mustangs shot down by mistake)

Right, Alexis. There was no mistake. Since the end of 1944, from time to time they have been feeling us like that.
"7.11.44, 12.50, a group of 12 LIGHTING type aircraft attacked parts of the rifle corps of the 3rd Ukrainian Front, moving along the road from NIS to the west in the CHAMURLIA region.

Four airplanes in the ranks of the extended bearing carried out attacks one at a time from H - 4 m with a lead to H - 400 m. Two fours LIGHTING in the ranks of the bearing went to H - 50 m. After the first attacks on the aircraft, opened fire for air defense from the air defense of the NISH airfield, with fire ZA, 1500 LIGHTING plane was shot down, which fell 1 km north of the airfield."
As a rule, the shot down pilots on the maps had all the goals.

[Taratut]

What does it mean - pinching?
There was no coordination, all the attempts of the allies to establish interaction, our rejected. So skirmishes like the Nish incident turned out.
Hence, many myths. For example, Churchill's letter to Stalin with a proposal to establish cooperation in our country is interpreted as a "plea" to launch an unprepared offensive to save the allies in the Ardennes.
Although it is not difficult to compare the dates of the beginning of the offensive of the Red Army and the turning point in the Ardennes. But many people have lost the habit of moving their brains.

[Zynaps]

Quote: Taratut

There was no coordination, all the attempts of the allies to establish interaction, our rejected. So skirmishes like the Nish incident turned out.

but do not whistle. even identification marks have been developed in advance so as not to pile on each other in the heat of battle. For nothing, did the bands strip on the tanks?

Quote: Taratut

For example, Churchill's letter to Stalin with a proposal to establish cooperation in our country is interpreted as a "plea" to launch an unprepared offensive to save the allies in the Ardennes.

you completely lie. figures like you interpret. when the allies received zvizdyulin in the Ardennes, the Red Army fought for Vashava Prague and was preparing to carry out the Vistula-Oder operation. moreover, the interaction was coordinated and identification marks for the technology were developed. What else was there for you to do the Soviet command?

Quote: Taratut

But many people have lost the habit of moving their brains.

I won’t even point a finger at these many.

[Taratut]

Quote: Zynaps

you completely lie. figures like you interpret. when the allies received zvizdyulin in the Ardennes, the Red Army fought for Prague and prepared to carry out the Vistula-Oder operation

There is one word of truth - indeed, the beginning in the Ardennes was unsuccessful for the Allies. There was a potential danger.
But by December 30, 1944 the Germans themselves had recognized - the operation had failed.
Churchill wrote on January 4th (dates as a keepsake, a 1-2 day error is possible). We launched the offensive on January 20th.
Stalin assured that we launched the offensive unprepared for the salvation of the allies, and did the right thing - he got whists. But in all seriousness, it’s foolish to say it now.

[Su24]

It was the Germans themselves who admitted that the operation was at an impasse, and the top leadership of the Allies realized this belatedly, + ours launched an offensive, also not on the same day as they wrote the letter, but on the 12th (yes, not 20). So Churchill’s appeal to Stalin can easily be interpreted as a request for help.

[Su24]

The Warsaw uprising had ended long ago.

[wax]

Mustangs did not save - you cannot argue against skill. And all sorts of Hartmans fled probably if Pokryshkin or Kozhedub were in the air. "Flying targets" clinked with non-fired recruits.

[tuts]

Yes, to hell with him with the Mustangs is that he shot down a jet Me-262 on a piston aircraft, this is really an unsurpassed feat

[Midshipman]

There was nothing heroic there - the self-confident German, slowing down with pleasure, was pleased to consider the results of his own attack at that moment and was caught.

[Denzel13]

Kozhedub is not the only one who shot down jet planes.

[apro]

The article is so-so there is no main conclusion how did these numbers in the wreaths help the Germans? Yes, they didn’t educate real fighters. They didn’t give the Luftwaffe the opportunity to correctly assess the threat of the Soviet Air Force. So let them rejoice at the numbers and not the victory.

[GHG]

It’s so customary for them ... not to dispute the score after the battle. They also went to death. Until now, they probably do postscripts. It would be interesting to count the number of downed planes with all canvases and air defense for the entire period. It’s 3 times more number produced over the entire period of the war.
And, of course, propganda, you need to somehow increase the morale of the next "cannon fodder".

[I627z]

Naturally there are no superpowers, what kind of stupidity? But overall there was more order and organization in the Luftwaffe.
For history lovers, I recommend A. Galland's book: "The First and the Last".
A very interesting person, an enemy worthy of respect.

[baltika-18]

I agree with the author, about the offset of downed aircraft by the number of engines I read in my youth, in the memories of our pilots about the war.

[eye276]

I do not mind the issue of the number of engines in the classification, the Bf-109 is not a very bad aircraft created in 30 years, underwent 41 years of modernization and by 45 was at the peak of perfection Bf.109K-14 DB603L engine with a two-stage supercharger, which provided at takeoff 1700 hp and 1725 hp at an altitude of 1500 m, a speed of 723 km / h at altitudes from 6000 m to 11500 m, armament of 3 30-mm guns MK-103 or MK-108 and two 13-mm machine guns, agree the numbers for that time suggest well, of course, plus tactics as well as the flight skills of the pilots themselves and a large number of enemy aircraft in the air. And not only the Germans suffered from the scribes.

[Kibb]

The fact is that this article and the "facts" - "One hundred years at lunchtime" - it is easier to podshchit the number of shot down AsSami - without quotes. It's just stupid to bring the number of downed planes to the number of planes at the front is extremely difficult - I understand. I have to write a bunch of books and articles

[Igarr]

Good topic, good article.
Comments are correct.
And here is a site - http: //airforce.ru / .....
so there are pilots' memories of the war. About the technique.
There are also recollections of Rudel and Kwachowski (Fritz, who does not know).
Very entertaining reading.
Especially in the subject - that if escort fighters ... were bombarded by a bomber - fighter sorties were not counted as fighters, and the group commander was put on trial (well, to the limit).
And the strike groups - the task was to disperse (ideally destroy) enemy bombers on the way to the lines of attack. At the same time, the command was deeply up to the bulldo ... how many fighters / bombers there ... are guarded by a specific ... Pokryshkin, Kozhedub.
Therefore, they did not shoot down .... hundreds ... ours.
Other tasks were set.
Therefore, the Germans ... hundreds ... did not shoot down. Because there is a limit to human capabilities.
All around barely barely to the 7-th ten are selected. Some Germans are falling ... in packs. I do not believe.
And no discipline, no hunting, no experience to do with it.
Divide by three or four - you get a real figure.
...
To read the memories of our pilots, to estimate the losses of pilots from the German fire - that’s how only one would return from flights. And then after a third.
However, ours do not write - catastrophic losses. There are losses.
But not .... 300 airplanes per German.
And that's it.

[Pessimist]

Quote: Igarr

Especially in the subject - that if escort fighters ... were bombarded by a bomber - fighter sorties were not counted as fighters, and the group commander was put on trial (well, to the limit).
And the strike groups - the task was to disperse (ideally destroy) enemy bombers on the way to the lines of attack. At the same time, the command was deeply up to the bulldo ... how many fighters / bombers there ... are guarded by a specific ... Pokryshkin, Kozhedub.
Therefore, they did not shoot down .... hundreds ... ours.
Other tasks were set.

Quite right! "Having shot the score", but without completing the combat mission, our pilot could go to court, while the Fritzes have a completely different concept of "completing" a mission! German bombers often dropped bombs anywhere, in danger of fighters and - flee! The main thing is to save the car! And our pilots have a tough - "combat mission", if you fail to do it - a tribunal! Here the Fritzes and flew!

[Aaron Zawi]

Absolutely true. The task of fighter aircraft is to cover their own bomber from enemy bombers and attack aircraft and to cover their bomber aircraft from enemy fighters. Ensuring the success of its SV, aviation performs the main task.

[Snoop]

That's it, that was the main task of the Red Army Air Force. But the Germans with their only quantitative criterion for fighters got into a puddle. Our fighter could be awarded for exemplary performance of the mission in the absence of shot down. The Germans all linked ONLY by the number of those shot down.

[Brother Sarych]

In my opinion, the accounts are, of course, overpriced, but they made many more sorties than their opponents!
For the American bomber pilot, it seemed that everything was enough 100 times to fly. and then you don’t have to fly anywhere at all! And Rudel made more than 2000 sorties, flew a day almost eight times! And they shot him down enough, the vast majority had enough once, and many aces had corresponding nicknames - paratroopers ...

[Midshipman]

Our pilots wrote that after the 5th-6th departure, they arrived in a semi-conscious state. And every day no one could fly like that - he would simply either be hit by a sleepy one or he would crash himself. And something I can not believe that the Germans, with all their blue blood, were regularly capable of more.

[psdf]

At one time I saw the layout of the energy consumption of pilots - I was very impressed. For a flight, it’s no more than training a weightlifter from the Olympic team.
Only a weightlifter does not need to solve many tasks of piloting, approaching a target, etc.
In short, the pilots have very hard work, requiring maximum concentration of all the reserves of the body.

[Geton]

How much how much

Quote: Brother Sarich

flew a day almost eight times!

did Rudel make a day of sorties?

[radar08]

He himself writes about 14, and such a pier was.

[Alex]

Quote: Brother Sarych

And Rudel made over 2000 sorties, flew almost eight times a day!

And so every day ?! I am not Stanislavsky, but I will repeat the great director: "I don't believe!" As with all three-digit AIRCRAFT KNOWLEDGE figures. For - from the evil one!

[Arct]

The topic is serious. The article is weak. The author ran over the surface without even trying to analyze and ponder. No conclusions at all. If the article is devoted to the combat score of pilots, then I put a bold minus, because the topic is not covered even by 30%. If the message of the article is "believe the Germans, because they have order and they are always honest," then another story. The most convenient examples and facts are taken, and everything that contradicts the desired opinion is deliberately omitted. On the other hand, I am very glad that this article has appeared. I myself am preparing a series of articles on fighter pilots of World War II, broken down by country, and would very much like to get away from the topic of discussing the plausibility of combat accounts. For this layer is very difficult, both informatively and in the area of ​​discussion. Maybe this article will encourage some enthusiast to reveal this topic on a much more serious level. And if this happens, I really hope that Wikipedia and other Internet "works" will not serve as sources of inspiration for him ...

[psdf]

Information has been disseminated, but as such there is no compilation and clear conclusions. Still, good sources would not hurt.

[igordok]

Many more aircraft were shot down by anti-aircraft guns, especially attack aircraft, reconnaissance and front-line bombers.

[Bigriver]

Weak and very superficial article :(
One of the main points is not said - the system, the rules for counting downed by the parties.
The Germans did not require confirmation from the ground forces. Like, yes, flopped so-and-so, then-and-so, in such-and-such a place, we testify. With us, this is a mandatory rule. And if our pilot shot down behind the front line? .. Who, from the fühler, should I ask for confirmation?
In addition, a paradox. Two Germans who attacked one Russian plane and shot it down counted victory .., to each
On the whole, yes .., ours flew less. As a rule, there is a regiment, and half of it flies, and also with low intensity. This is what the author would take and analyze: how and why?
Then this conclusion would be:
"This shows what a formidable opponent the Soviet Union defeated, and why Victory is so valuable."
was filled with moments of truth.

[Denzel13]

Another article by a man who has read the "superhistorical" pearl Toliver and Constable (during the Cold War, by the way, who understands will draw conclusions).
What actions in the German minority does the author write about? What are the "many goals" (on the Eastern Front)? From the very first day of the war, the Germans concentrated their aviation, creating a significant air superiority in the directions of strikes. The Soviet troops began to create air armies only in 1943, and then the concentration of aviation was still limping for a considerable time, as it was evenly "smeared" on all fronts. The same A.I. Since 1941, Pokryshkin has regularly raised the issue of the massive use of aviation, formulating it this way: "You cannot hit with spread fingers."
The "astronomical" accounts of German "experts" have also been written about more than once, including on this site.
Just like that for an example:
24.08.1944/290/296 (you understand in what state at that time the situation was in the air and who dictated the conditions to whom) - Hartman flew in the morning to hunt and upon his return reported that he no longer had 5, but 11 downed aircraft. That his follower apparently confirmed under oath, or rather signed in a special form. Then he had lunch and flew again. This flight was monitored by radio communications and our "superhero" did not disappoint. He said 2 more victories in the second sortie on the radio. 1944 shot down in 52 sorties in 24.08.1944 !. He returned - flowers to him, etc. etc., but there is such a fact - in the combat log of the JG-39 (the squadron where he flew) it is worth that on XNUMX, Hartman shot down one P-XNUMX. One!

[Strashila]

A colleague agrees with you. A calculation of one of the historians about aviation of the Second World War was caught, where he correctly noticed one thing about the losses. We have a myth about colossal losses on the first day of the war, but it is a myth. The analysis of the losses showed that the main losses of the aircraft occurred in July 41, and they were not destroyed by the Germans, they were abandoned by the retreating Soviet troops. Losses of fifties, fights, General Udet shot himself in November 1941, probably not from the great achievements of the Reich aviation. The second with the number of sorties was not the same, aviation fuel was especially straining for the Germans, like they wanted and flew so much the same myth.

[Denzel13]

Yes, it’s true, and no one ever wondered how long it takes to prepare the same Bf-109 for departure and how many of these sorties will turn out in a day. Talking about the abundance of aircraft was stupid. German industry could not cope with the replacement of losses at the front.

[Kars]

I liked Mukhin’s book on this subject.

Propaganda has always been the most important branch of the army, and since the most important element of military leadership is cunning and deceit, the lie in propaganda is natural. But a lie is a very dangerous weapon: if one who is being lied begins to realize that he is being deceived, then propaganda can have the exact opposite effect.

The book explores how Hitler's lie about the incredible achievements of German fighter pilots ultimately paralyzed these pilots themselves.

For a wide range of history buffs.

I can’t tell you for Hartman, about Rudel — I believe in 80-100 destroyed units of armored vehicles (plus a hundred are damaged) Marat is exactly half of him, cruisers are not. But the trucks could very well be --- the USSR had quite a huge failure in the anti-aircraft artillery, especially 20-30 mm machine guns. Our columns did not meet the Fritz with such a flurry of fire as the German ones which included a lot of anti-aircraft self-propelled guns and towed quick-shooters.

[Kibb]

Without a fly in any way? Andrey, I'm sorry, but Knga is stupid, although I have it on the shelf

[Kars]

Advise better. About the stupid - for my level of knowledge of the WWII aviation is not particularly noticeable. Of course there is bias, but I do not hope for dispassion from anyone.

[Kibb]

Andrei, half of the book about the enemies of the Zionists (let's not raise the topic of the Holocaust, so as not to swear) - I know about their enemies without Mukhin. The second half is complete nonsense. A cocktail from other people's articles and books. He encourages you to constantly think, so I think. In any case, I do not want to listen to the advice as it should and how it is not necessary from the flyers to those who have never been in one battle.
Threat Of the little things- Su85 is such a rare self-propelled gun to put in the illustration of the Su100?

[Kars]

Not well, but a book then advise? I can criticize myself.

[Kibb]

But I don’t know, there are a lot of articles, I advise you to just search ... and indeed the topic is not interesting to me, so I talked with you and Vadim ....

[Kibb]

1. Accounts of German aces (air or tank)
2. Lendlis
3. Holocaust
4.Varangian
5 .... add yours -type Ukraine -Gas

[Pessimist]

Quote: Kars

Not well, but a book then advise? I can criticize myself.

I was rather impressed by M. Solonin "At peacefully sleeping airfields ... summer of 1941". The book is biased in many ways, but interesting.

[Normal]

Quote: Pessimist

The book is largely biased, but interesting.

Not just interesting, but in my opinion the most fully reflecting the state of affairs in aviation at the beginning of the war. Such an analysis of technology and tactics, causes and effects has not been found anywhere.

[Karlsonn]

Greetings, in my opinion, the best and most accessible of all, this question was analyzed by A. Isaev in the book "Anti-Suvorov ten myths of the Second World War", chapter 8 "352 shot down as a path to defeat." This article touches on only one aspect of this phenomenon, and there are several of them.

[Normal]

Quote: Kars

Well, do you recommend a book?

Go on the tank theme! And the article is in places ripped off from the book by M. Solonin "On Peacefully Sleeping Airfields ..."
In the article: "On a cloudless day, from a distance of 5 km. A fighter of the Second World War is visible like a fly on a window pane from the far corner of the room. In the absence of radars on airplanes, air combat was more of an unexpected coincidence than a regular event. "
In the book: "On a bright sunny day, in absolutely transparent air at a distance of only 5 km. The I-16 fighter looks like a fly on glass. If you look at it from the far corner of the room. Well, in fog, haze or from a greater distance - This is why, before the advent of airborne and ground-based radars, meeting enemy aircraft in the sky was a rare exception rather than a rule. "
The rest is in the same spirit, plus something from the book by O.S. Smyslova "ASY AGAINST ASOV"

[Zerstorer]

By types of aircraft - the aviation collection magazine http://www.magazinesworld.info/category/aviakollekciya/

In combat use - Combat of a pair and a link of fighter jets

On the topic of the article - http://www.airwar.ru/other/article/aces.html

[Kars]

Quote: Kars

there were many anti-aircraft self-propelled guns and towed gunners.

A little illustration.

[Kibb]

The photo is interesting, it’s only in the RKKA’s anti-aircraft machines, and in general the air defense problems are difficult to explain by Tukhachevsky alone
46k - "HARMFUL" or what?

[Karlsonn]

1-th deputy. the people's commissar of defense and the marshal of the USSR didn’t influence the army and defense?

[Kibb]

Quote: Karlsonn

deputy the people's commissar of defense and the marshal of the USSR didn’t influence the army and defense?

Influenced, and with this I never argued, pushed VERY badly, BUT, only after 37-38 who disturbed? I ask you to not tell tales about the can, and then not everything is so bad-ML20, A19. 52K is not the best thing, but in principle it’s not bad, but if about the ML20 then it's generally a wonderful weapon

[Kars]

You can explain to many. But still Tukhachevsky share (and sickly) is.

[Kibb]

Where do you take them? although I know where- AWESOME PICTURES

[Kars]

Quote: Kibb

although I know where

Where is it? Your assumption is just interesting.

 Show / Hide text

I cut from books

[Kibb]

Well? ML20 than you guessed?

[Kars]

Do not quite understand about the howitzer-bush ML-20?

[Kibb]

I talked about the fact that Tukhachevsky didn’t spoil everything - there were in our artillery, and there are very good guns

[Arct]

Most of all, I am amused by the three concepts introduced by "democratic" Russian pseudo-historians in relation to the topic of German aces and their battle scores.
1) The Germans made 6 sorties a day. I even know where the info came from, for I myself read these Western books in the late 80s. That's just pseudo-historians forget to bring these conclusions in full. BEFORE (as in the original) 6 sorties on climax days (not even moments that could be interpreted as several days or weeks) of major military operations. That is, in fact: Monday-Tuesday up to 6 sorties, Wednesday-Thursday-Friday 3-4. As soon as the voltage subsided: 1-2 or generally 0. All this without considering the weather and operating conditions.
2) The Germans all victories are clearly recorded and confirmed. Yeah, until November 1941 there was confirmation of ground units and the FKP and confirmation of other (and not one) pilots. Further on the principle, the simpler the better. At first, confirmation and one pilot is enough, but then everything is fine.
- I flew here a couple of times a day ago and nine Russians failed.
- Gut Walter, we believe you, we will write it down ...
Keep in mind that this applies only to theater outside the metropolis. In the sky of Germany it was a bit more complicated.
3) All victories are confirmed by documentation.. There is one caveat, a large number of documents were either lost in the years 1943-45 during the retreats, or destroyed in the same 45m. Therefore, Western sources operate in four categories:
a) own archives;
b) German documents that survived and fell into the hands of Western allies.
c) restored documents in the period from 46 to 49 in the territory of the future Germany from interrogations of pilots and Luftwaffe personnel. And if victories on the Western Front could still be compared with their documents, then how were victories on the Eastern Front verified?
d) memoirs of Luftwaffe pilots. But why do our modern pseudo-historians, refuting the memoirs of our veterans, suggest that we blindly believe the memoirs of veterans from the other side?
In general, the topic is actually long and difficult, but there is only one conclusion - with our data we will never know the true meanings. Therefore, everyone concludes for himself what to believe ...
P.S. And the prize points were converted into awards - this is so, for information ...

[Dobrokhod Sergey]

The most interesting thing is that as soon as these asss fell on the western front, the number of their victories tended to zero, because there they had to be confirmed.

[Taratut]

Not therefore.
On the Eastern Front, you fly, you hunt - and God knows whether you will still meet the enemy. And there you work as an interceptor and take off towards the armada. There are many goals, yes. But you yourself are the goal. The density of clashes is much higher.

[Denzel13]

And if you add up all the planes shot down by the Germans on the Eastern Front, it turns out that our industry + lend - lease has not been released so much. It's just "inconvenient" to talk about this for those who made propaganda in the Third Reich and for those who did it during the Cold War - how could one admit that Soviet pilots were the best.
And Pokryshkin did not have 59 shot down. In 1941, he shot down 15 counted, but during the retreat, the headquarters destroyed the documents with the results of the entire regiment's activities. And 1942 began with a clean slate. This fact was not disputed by the command (the guilty officer, by the way, was put on trial), but they started counting anew. Our pilots did not consider aircraft shot down over the territory controlled by the enemy and over the sea. And Alexander Ivanovich loved to meet the enemy even on his territory, when they were not waiting. Hunted effectively over the Black Sea. In addition, Pokryshkin "handed out" the aircraft he shot down to his wingmen, explaining this by the fact that they provided him with the opportunity to destroy the enemy. And this was the practice applied almost everywhere. The same Safonov never recorded more than one shot down plane after departure - he divided it between the whole group. You can also recall sorties to "attack" on fighters, especially at the beginning of the war. Attack pilots had an average life expectancy in 1941 of 3-8 sorties. If memory serves, for 50 stormtroopers at the beginning of the war, they were presented to the Hero. Pokryshkin has more than 80 ground attack sorties.

[Dobrokhod Sergey]

To be honest to the end, then, with all due respect to our wars, let's analyze further: Pokryshkin has one shot down his plane at the beginning of the Su-2 war. Kozhedub came into force in 1943, therefore, his coefficient, so to speak, is slightly higher.

But in general - Glory and gratitude to our grandfathers, fathers, grandmothers and mothers who ensured the Victory.

[Denzel13]

Sergei Dobrokhod, to be honest to the end, not so many pilots survived 41-42 years, but they swept away the backbone of the Luftwaffe, and on aircraft significantly inferior in performance characteristics + lack of radio communication. In addition, do not discount that the same Pokryshkin was in conventional front-line aviation, i.e. flew ground attacks, more than 100 reconnaissance missions, escorting strike aircraft. Kozhedub (and absolutely not belittling Ivan Nikitovich's merits, he also distinguished himself in Korea later, and even how) was engaged to a large extent in "free hunting", which implied great efficiency. Again, the tactics of use, what it was at the beginning of the war, and what became in 1943 - m.

[Taratut]

Quote: Denzel13

And if you add up all the planes shot down by the Germans on the Eastern Front, it turns out that our industry + land-lease did not release as much

Have you tried, folded?

[heruv1me]

I’ll tell you one secret, not the combat losses of the Red Army Air Force for the period 41-45 60%.
I can’t say the source, since recently I’ve been fascinated by il-2 simulators and re-read just a lot of books, and I can’t remember. But you can search.

[skullcap]

I would like to add that a significant part of our aircraft was destroyed on the ground during the first hours of the war. Therefore, before the Kursk Bulge, our pilots had to act under unequal conditions — with the Germans dominating the air.
Another reason that no one has yet mentioned is the lack of communication in the air in the early years of the war. I do not know the full picture, but last year I read the memoirs of Vorozheykin, where he writes that he received the first aircraft with a walkie-talkie only in Belarus.

[REPA1963]

At the beginning of the war, the USSR had about 20000 (twenty thousand) aircraft; at the end of 41, about 13 remained, these data were announced for the 000th anniversary of the Air Force (Channel 100).

[Gamdlislyam]

As a comment on the article, I propose recording a conversation with twice GSS T. Punev. He flew Pe-2, and at the front, their regiment covered Pokryshkin's regiment. Punev T.P. quite accurately described the numbers of the downed planes and what they mattered in reality. He also said why Pokryshkin was appreciated and respected, and how the Germans were afraid of him (in reality).
I recommend reading the article. Source - http://svjatoy.livejournal.com/44335.html

[Denzel13]

Absolutely true, Gamdlislyam - this should be read. And by the way, at that time the regiment in which Pokryshkin served was opposed, JG-51 and 52 - "the most" in Goering.

[Arct]

Kars
About Mukhin I’ll say only one thing, it’s necessary to read, but very carefully and drawing my conclusions. Unfortunately, he is too categorical and cheers-patriotic (like Kalashnikov at one time). The most useful thing in his book is that he considered 70-80 percent of the available approaches on the topic.

[Denzel13]

Yes, Mukhin has excesses, again this is subjective, but in general, if we take the facts, figures and conclusions, then it’s even nothing.

[Cynic]

On a cloudless day, from a distance of 5 km, a fighter from World War II can be seen as a fly on a window pane from the far corner of a room. In the absence of radar on the aircraft, the air battle was rather an unexpected coincidence than a regular event.

Something very familiar in these words. It seems that recently there was an article on the site proving that all these air battles are bullshit! The planes could not meet then!
In general, absolutely nothing new, rehash, precisely its zero.

[Pessimist]

Quote: Cynic

Something very familiar in these words. It seems that recently there was an article on the site proving that all these air battles are bullshit! The planes could not meet then!

How many pilots did not shoot down a single enemy plane? 90%! But air battles are not bullshit, of course! In the memoirs of veterans, the phrase is often found: "I would like to return today ..." War is war ...

[motorized rifle]

Action is equal to counteraction, as Newton used to say, and the appearance of Mukhin’s books is counteraction to that direction in WWII history, which is called, to put it mildly, to reduce the role of the Soviet people in the victory over fascism. That’s the whole point. Well, tell me, is it ingenious that the Luftwaffe and their allies, who lost the war in the sky (albeit not immediately), are almost winners with the numbers of the planes they shot down? A typical PR technique, and it is designed not for people who understand this issue, but for inexperienced readers who should first have respect for people who invaded his country and with whom his ancestors fought. And then disappointment and contempt for their country. Of course, these authors are well aware that the war is won on the ground and aviation works in the interests of the ground forces. They also understand that the contribution of aviation to victory is determined by the number of destroyed objects, equipment and manpower or shot down strike aircraft, and certainly not the number of enemy fighters shot down. But pulling out big numbers, coming up with a romantic image of blond knights and stuff, they continue their war! I think that some Gestapo recollections will soon appear about how bravely and nobly their field gendarmerie protected the population of the occupied part of the USSR from raids by wild, bloodthirsty partisans! They never lie so much as on the hunt and after a fight.

[Alf]

To count the victory in the Luftwaffe, the German pilot filled out a questionnaire of 5 points.
1. "Report of the pilot himself". Well, here you can declare 50 per flight.
2. "Slave's report". See above.
3. "Report of the group commander". The principle "You tell me, I tell you" has not been canceled yet.
4. "Personnel of the FKP". Here it is necessary to dwell in more detail. The FKP was switched on at the moment the trigger was pressed, i.e. filmed the shot and the track. Well, if the target exploded or its wing fell off, then victory has no options. And if the track is stuck, and the target is flying? To follow, observing-fell or not, then he himself will be overthrown by the moment.
5. "Testimony of ground troops". The main type of Luftwaffe struggle is free hunting, i.e. actions behind the front line. And from the middle of 42, the front line was about more than one place. How to prove ?
Specifically, according to Hartman .. The first episode was sent to intercept the B-24 over Ploiesti. Amer go in tight formation, walked around, about, risky, can fall down, each with 12 colts. And then the Mustangs appear. Hartman gets into a fight with them. Result-3 shot down amer. True, during this departure, the Liberators destroyed the refinery, but this does not bother the best ace, most importantly, I replenished my account.
The second episode is April 44. In the flight book of Hartman-4 victory (LA-5, 2 IL-2, Yak-9). In the magazine of the part that day is behind him-1 YAK-9.
Hartman’s first flight book has 150 victories, the remaining 202 victories are allegedly in the second book, which no one has seen.
Further ... All the data about the shot down coming up at the headquarters immediately decreased by half, and this is IMMEDIATELY, without further elaboration.
In addition, the legend of the great ace was born in the United States after the publication of the book of Toliver and Constable in the 70s, at the height of the Cold War. And why didn’t Hartman himself publish his memoirs, where did he mow the Russians with a scythe?
This does not mean at all that the German victories are all inflated, they were deadly opponents, THERE IS VALUABLE OUR VICTORY!

And, most importantly .. All actions of the air force, as well as the naval forces, should contribute to the victory of the ground forces. The Luftwaffe, possessing the best aces in the world and gigantic personal accounts, for some reason were defeated and pressed against the walls of Berlin.
From the very beginning, one thought was instilled in any of our pilots - You can not shoot, you can not shoot down, but not one bomb should fall on the ground troops. HERE AND THE RESULT OF THE WAR!

[Karlsonn]

. First Gefechtsbericht was written - a report about the battle, then filled out on an Abschussmeldung typewriter - a form for a report on the destruction of an enemy aircraft. In the second document, the pilot answered a number of questions regarding the consumption of ammunition, the distance of the battle, and indicated on the basis of which he concluded that the enemy aircraft was destroyed.
I agree with the conclusion, A couple more nuances: Hartman - 1425 sorties on 352 downed, Kozhedub - 330 sorties on 62 downed, in the draft 4-5 sorties on one victory; The German Air Force, that fire brigade, was hanging out all over the front — Take, for example, the 1st and 2nd groups of the 54th Green Hearts fighter squadron, which started the war with the USSR in the Army Group North. Moving along with GA “Sever” to Leningrad, both squadron groups get stuck there until 1943. In May 1943, they get to GA “Center” and fight in the Orel region during the period of the “Citadel” and the retreat to “ Hagen line. " In August 1943, city I, the group enters the GA band “South”, in Poltava, and remains there until October. After that, she relocated to Vitebsk, and then to Orsha, that is, leads to battles in the subordination of GA Center. Only in the summer of 1944 did she return to the GA North and ends the war in Courland. A similar path has been taken by the II group of the Green Hearts squadron. In August 1943, the group fell into Ukraine at the disposal of GA South, and remained there until March 1944, after which it returned to GA North, again in the Baltic states. Similar dances were performed by other German fighter aircraft. Our pilots fought on their sector of the front, Pokryshkin was eager, eager for the Kursk, but didn’t hit.
In general, something like that.

[PiP]

All the numbers of the Germans are miserable inventions. Since I've read a lot of everything and everyone, I can't operate with exact numbers and names, but some facts have been deposited in my head, If memory serves: we have a mandatory confirmation of the shot down, if on our ter. then from observation posts or other services. Behind the front line: aerial reconnaissance, partisans, or observation posts (if not far from the front line). According to them, even the plane that left the battle (stock, fuel ran out) was recorded. But the figures for Hartman are scary: October 1942 to May 1945 = round up 910 days, divide 1425 sorties by 910 days, we get 1,57 sorties per day. This is nonsense, but what about-not flying weather, failure of technology, vacations for recovery, relocation, "half drunk" (titles and awards, birthdays) and so on. In general, some kind of "over man" is obtained.

[Strashila]

What can I say Goebels propaganda continues to work decades after the defeat of the Nazis. Any country needs heroes. They attribute a lot to one German ace that he could make a bunch of sorties in one day. Only simple arithmetic showed that it was from the realm of fantasy. Amers also counted victories in Korea, counted so many of that number of enemy planes. They began to understand, but the essence simple, offset by the photorecorder ... but this does not mean that it still hit and it is unlikely that it shot down. The number of aircraft released to the remainder on any day, the aircraft, like any mechanism, have a useful life and are written off in scrap, taking into account The series of that time they were not long-lived. Do not forget that not a small fraction of aviation was based in the Far East. They write the number of flights ... you compare with the number of days of the war as a whole ... physically, is it really possible for a person to withstand such loads ??? This is how myths are born. You open the award sheet of the Soviet pilot, on the portal podvignaroda.ru, I gave an example of Suskin Nikolai Ivanovich, my father’s work team, everything is written out how much and what and for what period. And not messer and not foc, but simple software -2

[Marxman]

but comparisons of the diaries of air units fighting against each other very often contradict and do not confirm losses. For example, the Germans claim six downed Soviet planes. Ours about four German. and when comparing losses, it turns out according to Soviet data, ours lost three aircraft. but the Germans didn’t break out of the battle. But supposedly downed planes are counted at the expense of pilots. I can’t say for the Germans, but in the second half of the war the Soviet pilots had a hard time at the expense of those shot down. who fought remember, the fighters will hit the plane and run signatures collect that the plane is really shot down. But postscript were_- at the time it was. The Germans flew more often, shot down more is a fact. But the Red flag was above the Reichstag, and German was only at the Kremlin’s knives lying on the victory parade. so whoever knocked it more is so bullshit. The British lost most of the ships in WWII, but no one screams that the British are bad sailors. They are the best. So our multi-planes lost, with more than 2% accounted for accident rate

[Su24]

The article is generally speculative.

[sania275]

What matters is the outcome of the war, everything else is waving hands after a fight.

[Evgeniy8104]

I. Kozhedub drenched everything that moves

[16]

the glory of RUSSIA AND ITS PEOPLE !!!!!!!!!!! first of all RUSSIAN !!!!!!!!!!! and how those who hold power do not understand it !!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[MI-AS-72]

Our statistics of counting downed more "bureaucratic", in addition to confirmation by witnesses of the battle, it was required that ground sources also confirm this fact. And most importantly, the USSR was an extremely bureaucratic country, and the bureaucratic system has its own peculiarities. Until the last days, the Criminal Code of the USSR had an article on postscripts, and under Stalin it also acted in combination with treason. Chief Marshal of Aviation, Twice Hero of the Soviet Union A.A. Novikov, in order to help his relative, People's Commissar of the USSR aviation industry, Colonel-General, Hero of Socialist Labor A.I. Shakhurin to cope with the implementation of monthly plans for the construction of combat aircraft, forced aviation military representatives during the war accept faulty (for the reporting period) aircraft, i.e. they attributed faulty aircraft to serviceable ones. The most amazing thing is that after a certain period of time, the invalid aircraft were brought into combat readiness. But neither the war nor the Victory wrote off this. In 1946 everything was revealed and both sat down for it. Neither rank nor stars helped. Twice the Hero served his 6 years "from call to call". And he was still lucky. Because the secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), the hero of the defense of Leningrad A.A. Kuznetsov and the Deputy Chairman of the Council of Ministers of the USSR, Chairman of the State Planning Committee of the USSR N.A. Voznesensky were not at all lucky - they were shot for the additions. So, with the number of people shot down, ours were not particularly "covered up" although it was in the media.

[MI-AS-72]

Well, and also about what really aces our grandfathers won. "World record" in the 2nd MV, officially confirmed by all about the number of those shot down in one battle, belongs to the Germans, he shot down 13 Englishmen. So just in case, for your reference.

[nnz226]

The German aces had a rule: "Attack from the sun, shoot down - run away." The task of the Soviet Air Force was to support the actions of ground forces, and not to hunt for "scalps" of the Luftwaffe aces. Pokryshkin wrote in his memoirs that in July 1943, when the Battle of Kursk was rumbled, their air unit was sitting on the Southern Front without work, because There were no German planes in the sky, everyone was working on the faces of the Kursk Bulge. And their part was not transferred to Kursk, where he could replenish the account of the downed Germans. That's the whole clue: yes, the Germans could have such personal accounts of downed aircraft, but they did not have an order like: "Accompany attack aircraft, ensure that they complete their combat mission, do not get involved in a battle with German fighters! Others will take care of them!" Where is there to earn stars for fezulyage ?!

[KBACYPA]

In principle, A. Isaev has a good, in my opinion, analysis of the actions and effectiveness of the Red Army Air Force and the Luftwaffe.

[77bor1973]

There was such an Fighter Kostylev, after 1942 he was never awarded even though he continued to shoot down the Luftwaffe aircraft, he commanded a squadron as a privately-held officer and became a flight inspector unofficially until the end of the war, wrote down victories on others!

[maxiv1979]

The Germans flew according to a different principle - "free hunting", approached immediately with an excess of height (5-6 km) above a possible enemy, and ours covered bombers and attack aircraft and a priori had lower speed and height (2-4 km). I dived to the formation, alternately hit the sight of several planes, shot down - did not shoot down, ran away again to a height, sat out, we can see a wounded animal, beaten off from the formation, dived and again ran to a height. The speed and rate of climb of the German fighters were very good compared to ours until the middle of 43 somewhere. Considering that there was no shortage of goals, of course, the overestimation of their victories and the work of propaganda, so we get ...

[77bor1973]

If we talk about the Americans, then they had a high rotation of pilots - flew in combat conditions for a couple of months immediately leave with a possible transfer to another theater.

The same Pokryshkin, Kozhedub, Rechkalov, and others. Ases gave many of their victories to other pilots to equalize the indicators!

[Pimply]

The Americans had a certain limit on the number of sorties. On average - from 30 to 50, after which it was possible to go on demobilization.

[Arct]

MI-AS-72
13 victories in one battle in 17 minutes, this is the storyteller Rudorfer in November 43rd, and on the Eastern Front. This storyteller also has 8 victories in one battle in Africa at the beginning of the 43rd. 11 IL-2 in one battle at 44m above Liepaja. In general, he has 120 units shot down in battles of 3 pieces or more. That is, he thought it was obviously frivolous to bring 1-2 from the battle. The funny thing is that for most of the battles of this dreamer there are documentary refutations. And such a disease suffered all the German aces centurions who fought not in the sky of the metropolis.
The most reliable figures for the Germans were at the time of the unofficial competition of Mölders, Galland, Vick, Jozau and Balthazar at 39-40m. They went head to head and the appearance of postscripts was unlikely, and the appearance of newcomers with dozens shot down in a couple of weeks was completely unrealistic.

[MI-AS-72]

As for fairy tales, this is for your grandmother. And what is the story about the fact that the German ace Erich Rudorfer in 1943, during one sortie and air battle, shot down 13 English "Spitfires" naturally in the West. This is a fact. When, in 1944, the active phase of carpet bombing of Germany began, German analysts considered that in order to stop it, it is necessary to shoot down at least 70 planes in each raid, the Germans shot down an average of 40. So the Soviet pilots rendered great help in this to the allies, they, with their courage and skill, broke their teeth and landed the German aces, and let them think Now, as they want, the opinion of those pilots who were in that sky at that time is important for me, and they always said that these accounts were a lie.

[Sasha 19871987]

stunned ... I don't know what else to say ...

[postman]

Author::
"The most prosaic explanation of the phenomenon of the Luftwaffe: the Germans had no shortage of goals. Germany fought on all fronts with the numerical superiority of the enemy."
According to this logic, the Polish Air Force would chop even more Luftwaffe aircraft.
after the first months in the Red Army, all our pilots would become aces.
The real indicator is the loss of aircraft:

German casualties total - 113569 aircraft
downed German planes declared by the allied command:
- Cycle Britain - 7911
- USA - 50658
- USSR - 55000
Italy casualties - 5272 aircraft
France in 1940 - 1123 aircraft

Great Britain - 16385 planes lost in battle, 18615 as a result of accidents,
USA - 18400 in Europe and 40896 in the Pacific
Japan - 49485
Australia - 7160
Canada - 2389
New Zealand - 684

[postman]

Author::
"The most prosaic explanation of the phenomenon of the Luftwaffe: the Germans had no shortage of goals. Germany fought on all fronts with the numerical superiority of the enemy."

According to this logic, the Polish Air Force would chop even more Luftwaffe aircraft.
after the first months in the Red Army, all our pilots would become aces.
The real indicator is the loss of aircraft:

German casualties total - 113569 aircraft
downed German planes declared by the allied command:
- Cycle Britain - 7911
- USA - 50658
- USSR - 55000
Italy casualties - 5272 aircraft
France in 1940 - 1123 aircraft

Great Britain - 16385 planes lost in battle, 18615 as a result of accidents,
USA - 18400 in Europe and 40896 in the Pacific
Japan - 49485
Australia - 7160
Canada - 2389
New Zealand - 684

[postman]

Author::
"The most prosaic explanation of the phenomenon of the Luftwaffe: the Germans had no shortage of goals. Germany fought on all fronts with the numerical superiority of the enemy."
According to this logic, the Polish Air Force would chop even more Luftwaffe aircraft.
after the first months in the Red Army, all our pilots would become aces.
The real indicator is the loss of aircraft:


German casualties total - 113569 aircraft
downed German planes declared by the allied command:
- Cycle Britain - 7911
- USA - 50658
- USSR - 55000
Italy casualties - 5272 aircraft
France in 1940 - 1123 aircraft

Great Britain - 16385 planes lost in battle, 18615 as a result of accidents,
USA - 18400 in Europe and 40896 in the Pacific
Japan - 49485
Australia - 7160
Canada - 2389
New Zealand - 684

[Su24]

And how many of ours have lost planes? And what is the source of the table?

[postman]

Quote: Su24

And how many of ours have lost planes? And what is the source of the table?

so this is our loss !! Yu GERMAN TABLE NOT ATTACHED. THERE IS IT (here)

source:
In 1962, "Soviet Aviation in the Great Patriotic War in Figures." The work was "published" on rotoprint, with a circulation of several dozen copies, under the heading "Top Secret". Declassified in 1992.

[Pimply]

It is worth noting that the author of the article should read the history. Why are there so few victories for American pilots, and why are there so few aces? Yes, because the pilots had a certain service life, which went according to the number of sorties. Bombers - from 30 to 50, for example, depending on the time. I recommend that you read the book "Catch 22" - there it is one of the main topics (pilots are constantly increasing the number of sorties to demobilization). Whatever it may seem that this is not enough, Kozhedub had 330 sorties, and at certain moments, up to 20% of bombers per sortie perished, and each fortieth sortie ended in death.

[Rico1977]

Yes, all this nonsense, they simply considered even crashed planes to be shot down, and confirmation was not required (unlike in our case - witnesses, confirmation of the location of the remains, etc., etc., you’ll confirm horseradish), it seemed that they shot down - they write down that they shot down, shot down by the team - each was counted as one shot down (each was shot down by seven, each on an airplane, but in fact 7 are shot down), and they were considered pompously - a four-engine bomber was shot down - 4 aircraft were shot down. They just had such an account, it is more profitable for pilots.

[Arct]

postman (1)
I don’t even want to comment on the American figure of the downed German planes. Look at other sources, read a lot of interesting things. First: destroyed and downed - these are slightly different concepts. Secondly: carefully read how the Americans counted victories, especially with the mass raids in Europe. And thirdly: 50000 active hostilities shot down during the year, and even the Germans - didn’t you want to think about it yourself?

[Pimply]

The allies, dear, namely the British and Americans, began to fight in the air a year earlier, and from a certain moment they simply dominated the air. For example, thanks to them, with the 44, the Germans had such big problems with fuel - they smashed the plants for the production of synthetic fuel and the tankers had nothing to eat.

[RUS-36]

Allies, What are they allies. ??? Selling wh ... hee that the US that the UK ...
On June 23, 1941, FBI Director Edgar Hoover wrote to Treasury Secretary Morgenthau: “In the course of an audit of foreign deposits at Chase National Bank, large transfers to American oil companies were discovered on account of the supply of fuel overseas. According to our information, Standard Oil of New Jersey "received money from Germany for oil supplies at the behest of the German Reichsbank."

On July 15, 1941, US military intelligence reported that the concern had established the transportation of oil from Aruba to the Canary Islands. The report, in particular, said: "Approximately 20% of these supplies are destined for Nazi Germany, and the crews of six ships from those that carry out transportation along the route are recruited mainly from the Nazis. Our agent managed to find out that German submarines constantly plying in The same agent drew attention to the following: until now, none of the tankers of the "Standard Oil" concern has been torpedoed by the German Navy, while the ships of other American companies operating on other routes , has met such a fate. "

They bombed themselves and sold them ... This is a typical US prostitution policy

[Pimply]

Crimes of individual members of society are not a crime of society or the state as a whole, if this is not an official or semi-official state policy.

If we look at the German-Soviet agreement that was in effect before that 1941 year, then we suddenly find that the USSR, under a trade agreement of February 11 of the 1940 year, undertook to supply Germany - by then actively participating in World War II

1 000 000 tons of feed grain and legumes worth 120 million Reichsmarks
900 000 tons of oil worth about 115 million Reichsmarks
100 000 tons of cotton worth about 90 million Reichsmarks
500 000 tons of phosphate
100 000 tons of chromite ores
500 000 tons of iron ore
300 000 tons of pig iron scrap and pig iron
2 400 kg of platinum

Will we also vehemently blame the USSR, where this policy was at the state level, how do you now blame the corrupt whores of the USA and Britain?

[RUS-36]

We had a peace treaty with Germany, and the United States and Great Britain traded with the Nazis throughout the war and covered each other ... even after the opening of the Second Front

[Pimply]

Not the United States, and not Britain are interested. Exactly like Vlasov, for example. Or traitors collaborating in the occupied territories. And in favor of the same United States says the report you published - the investigation of such activities. The USSR, at the beginning of the war, de facto sided with Germany, supplying Germany with the very fuel on which it won the bridgeheads in Europe, which were then conquered by the lives of soldiers. If such an agreement were signed between the USA and Germany, you would have torn everyone here, convincing which States are traitors. But, however, the contract at the STATE level was signed between the USSR and Germany. True, it’s fun when you start delving into history?

[RUS-36]

It doesn’t reach you ... I don’t care about the problems of the Indians, I’m only worrying about my own country-homeland, and as she built relations with potential enemies, I’m all right, even if I would have burned them to ashes ...

[Pimply]

You need to worry about the country calmly, realistically assessing the situation. States with Britain in the war were on our side. And this is immensely pleasing, because if it were not for them - FIG knows how everything would turn, and to what extent.

[postman]

Quote: Pimply

began to fight in the air a year earlier

rather, even for 2 years and a month, so 4 in addition ...
Romania has been threshed regularly since 1942, and if I am not mistaken, using the USSR runway

[77bor1973]

Germans just didn’t have so many planes ...

[Su24]

The Amers began to actively fight in the air with the Germans back in 43, and they fought in France, in Italy and over Germany itself, so the figure is not particularly incredible. Another thing is that, perhaps, some of the "downed" aircraft landed over their territory and then repaired again.

[Pimply]

They started to fight a little earlier, in 1940, over Lamanche, volunteers, even in the Battle of Britain. There the Germans fought actively.

[postman]

Quote: Arkt

Arct

I look and others (RAF) approximately converge
The losses of the Luftwaffe on the fronts of the Second World War, pers.
(in brackets - including officers)

________________ Killed ______ Wounded ___ Missing _____ Total


The Western Front
и Германия: ______34147(3010)# 46157(2371)#52610(2961)#132914(8342)

West from the moment
высадки союзников: __11066(556)#25673(744)#41217(1339)#77956(2639)
_______________________________________________________________

Восточный фронт:__52932(2499)#116818(4318)#49210(2569)#218960(9386)

About:

Quote: Arkt

per year of active hostilities

This is bullshit.
By the beginning of 1943, the aircraft fleet of the Air Force SShch numbered over 15 thousand combat vehicles and more than doubled the German one.

By the spring of 1943, the fascist command was forced to attract up to 70 percent of all fighter aircraft for the defense of Germany and its Italian ally

Beginning in mid-January 1943, the Allied strategic aviation bombarded German submarine bases day and night.

Began the search for options to increase the flight range of fighters. However, this took considerable time, and the Americans did not solve the problem until the end of 1943.
A table of US flights, by year and by theater of operations DOWN.

Quote: Arkt

you yourself didn’t want to think?

always, it's like a disease. And you? (before writing like that?)

[Protey]

Rudel did not shoot at the tanks in bursts, especially in the forehead! The tank was struck by diving into the engine compartment with single shots. By the way, Rudel on demonstration flights, from a dive, placed shells precisely at the target, which was a 1x1 meter plywood sheet. the roof of the engine compartment of the tank will be more, and there’s no reservation there.

[Su24]

I agree, but it should be noted that damaging the engine and destroying a tank are two different things.

[Protey]

Su24,
Even if there was no fire (which is fraught with very serious consequences, up to the death of the car), the tank is withdrawn from the battle, possibly for a long time.

[Arsen]

The question begs how we won, but because we fought not worse, but also better. Otherwise, do not win. In recall the words of a neighbor of a war veteran, he hooked on autumn 45, in the Far East. The salag told us that they only drove us to the convoy and then the trains arrived with fighters from the west (ours fought with the Germans, but you might think ...), first intelligence and so on. There they say such mustangs, they drove the Japs, we supposedly didn’t have time to carry the rear convoy behind the combatant units, that's the way the eyewitness said.

[Protey]

Arsen,
That's right, over the years of the war, real fighters grew up, experience is a great thing. If the army had been with such preparation in 1941, then everything would have ended much faster and with less casualties.

[Arct]

postman (1)
Do not be offended, but I was always tired of lovers of "tsifirok" who stupidly led them, not trying to figure out the essence. We are speaking specifically about the number of downed German planes by US aviation. I wrote about the year active military operations. You cited, as an example, the figure of American sorties on the European theater of operations. And you took the trouble to see which planes account for most of these flights. Or do you have the main defendants in stuffing 50000 Germans are the crews of flying fortresses? You took the trouble to see with whom the Americans fought in the skies of Italy in 1943 (I don’t say anything about the 42nd, the amount of American aircraft on the European theater is just ridiculous). More precisely, how many German planes fought on that theater? The main combat units in the skies of Europe from the states were the 8th and 9th air armies. 9th actively participated in battles since June 1944 (from Normandy). 8th started earlier, but, here is the nuance, mainly by bombing raids unaccompanied fighter. Accompanying thunderbolts appeared in 8VA from April 43rd in the amount of 3 groups (according to our regiments). Lightnings from October 43rd in the amount of 2 groups. Mustangs B since February 44th - 3 groups. Mustangs D from June 44th - 5 groups. Therefore, I will continue to assert - year of action. And once again I will ask you a question - how did the Americans manage to bring down 50000 German planes over Europe in such a short time. Moreover, the Allies very quickly gained superiority in the air and to meet the German pilot, and even bring him down, it was necessary to try very hard. So what did the Americans bring down? Mirages?
Try in the future, using numbers, to analyze. And then, following your logic, it turns out that the Americans on average shot down 100 German planes per day. Just Achtung
P.S. And returning to Rudorfer - please, throw at least a link on which day and where he shot down 13 spitfires in one battle?

[Protey]

Arct,
"The German aces also owns another record: Captain Erich Rudorffer managed to shoot down thirteen enemy aircraft during twenty minutes of air combat on November 6, 1943!" Http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%F3%E4%EE%F0 % F4% F4% E5% F0, _% DD% F0% E8% F5
“In just one day on September 1, 1942, the anniversary of the outbreak of World War II, Hans Joachim Marseille managed to shoot down seventeen British planes in three sorties!” Http://100-great.sokrytoe.com/2466-tayna-marselya.html

[sfdgdfgdf]

Have you heard what our authorities are doing again ??? Now everything became known, all the information about each resident of Ukraine, Russia and the CIS countries.
Just recently I found this database on the Internet http://tarurl.com/el,
and most importantly, they did something like searching for lost relatives, but here is all the information about each of us:
Correspondence with friends, addresses, phone numbers, place of work, and the worst thing is even my exposure of photos
(I really don't know from where ...). In general, I was very scared - but there is such a function as "hide data"
Of course I took advantage and I advise everyone not to hesitate, you never know

[7958]

A crazy article, just comparing the Il-2 with the Yu-87 in terms of the accuracy of the use of weapons is worth it. The author should study the performance characteristics first. And the Germans used means of objective control very widely.

[UV58]

Pilot of a single-seat Il-2, 1941:
“Six of us took off on a mission, but we didn’t even reach the goal, the Messers knocked everyone down. I'm the only one left. I dropped all the bombs and ticked away... I was flying home after the massacre, and two Hans were behind me. The first one comes at me and fires a long burst from a machine gun, the bullets just hit my Il, and then his partner did the same. And so twice they did
lali. I couldn’t understand: why don’t they knock me down? My Il-2 cannot be shot down with machine guns, and they already knew that then. Only guns. Well, to hell with him. Landed. They tell me I'm lucky and all that: lucky that I survived. Then there were many sorties and missions, but this incident continued in 1943 near Kursk when a German mistakenly landed at our airfield. I then told him this incident on the 41st and asked: why didn’t your guys shoot me down then?
The German replied: “Yes, and they didn’t have to shoot you down. They made two passes at your armored Il, shot and photographed how the tracks hit you, and each then said that they shot down 2 Ivans. We counted 4 downed between us - that’s the whole story.”
That’s when I realized why the Fritz had so many downed…”

[Cynic]

Quote: UV58

They shot and photographed how the tracks hit you, and then everyone said that they shot down 2 Ivans. We counted 4 downed for both of us - that’s the whole story

Pure association

Vasily Ivanovich and Petka went on a business trip abroad. ... And then one says, “I have a point,” and I show him, and he says, “They take the gentlemen at their word.” And then my card went wrong....

[Arct]

Protey (2)
I beg you, do not use Wiki when you want to provide serious evidence.
Applicable to this case. What are you trying to tell me by providing this link? Confirm my words that Rudorfer “won” these 13 victories in one battle on the Eastern Front? Read more carefully. A comrade who is discussing with me claims that Rudorfer shot down 13 Spitfires in one battle on the Western Front - this is the link to this event that I am asking for.
Further, from which side is Marseille here, if we are talking about victories in one battle, and not during the day? When getting into someone else's discussion, take the trouble to understand the essence of the dispute. Yes, and Marseille is also from the category of storytellers - then try to provide data on confirmed British losses on this day, and let it not be German documents or Wiki

[Protey]

Arct,
Then you better contact the Queen of Great Britain!

[UV58]

http://liewar.ru/content/view/72/8/

[Prosto vovochka]

I wonder what Oleg Kaptsov finished and when?

[bubla5]

Judging by the number of aircraft produced during the war, then you shouldn’t even be surprised at the number of 200-300 aircraft shot down, because at the beginning of the war we had obsolete aircraft, but then the quality became equal and the Germans’ victories began to wane

[radar08]

The most interesting thing is that they have been filling their hundreds since the end of 42, far from the beginning of the war.

[rocketman]

In my opinion, it is not so important who has what numbers. The fact that the Germans were engaged in postscripts is 100% proven. But, for some reason, no one pays attention to the fact that the Germans took their combat training very seriously. And not only in aviation, but also in the Navy, and in tanks. I read several books from the military history library, “German Aces of World War II” and “Hitler’s Submarines in World War II” (I don’t remember the exact names). But the point is that it struck me - the German officer went into battle only fully prepared, both tactically and practically. For example, until 2, ours flew in threes, the Germans flew in fours according to the arm’s length principle, using well-established air combat techniques. (by the way, I later used some in the IL-1942 simulator, playing as the Germans - and it worked!). The same applies to submariners. They clearly used the “wolf pack” tactics, when the boat that was the first to discover the caravan did not immediately attack, but pointed others at it, and then together they drowned everyone. And so it was until 2 - then they were squeezed, and they began to produce pilots using the take-off - landing system, like we did in 1944. Ours really learned to fight in 1942. Pokryshkin then invented the “whatnot”, began to fly at altitude - and suddenly the number of Germans shot down increases. Before this, they “shaved” their troops - as a result, a lot of unjustified losses. Carefully read Pokryshkin’s book “Sky of War”. By the way, he tells there how he was shot down in 1943, and he got out to his own people.
And further. I strongly recommend reading GSS Vasily Emelianenko’s book “In the Harsh Military Air,” where he describes the combat path of the assault air regiment, the first in the Red Army to receive the Il-2 for service. So, the regiment has been at the front since June 26. In two months of fighting, it lost 65 planes! and went to the rear for reorganization. There, one moment is described - how 1 German, in front of everyone, destroyed 6 TB-3 bombers in one flight. There is no point in lying to the lieutenant, so a lot can be true.

[rocketman]

In my opinion, it is not so important who has what numbers. The fact that the Germans were engaged in postscripts is 100% proven. But, for some reason, no one pays attention to the fact that the Germans took their combat training very seriously. And not only in aviation, but also in the Navy, and in tanks. I read several books from the military history library, “German Aces of World War II” and “Hitler’s Submarines in World War II” (I don’t remember the exact names). But the point is that it struck me - the German officer went into battle only fully prepared, both tactically and practically. For example, until 2, ours flew in threes, the Germans flew in fours according to the arm’s length principle, using well-established air combat techniques. (by the way, I later used some in the IL-1942 simulator, playing as the Germans - and it worked!). The same applies to submariners. They clearly used the “wolf pack” tactics, when the boat that was the first to discover the caravan did not immediately attack, but pointed others at it, and then together they drowned everyone. And so it was until 2 - then they were pinned down, and they began to produce pilots using the takeoff-landing system, like we did in 1944. Ours really learned to fight in 1942. Pokryshkin then invented the "whatnot", they began to fly at altitude - and suddenly the beginning the number of Germans shot down increases. Before this, they “shaved” their troops - as a result, a lot of unjustified losses. Carefully read Pokryshkin’s book “Sky of War”. By the way, he tells there how he was shot down in 1943, and he got out to his own people.
And further. I strongly recommend reading GSS Vasily Emelianenko’s book “In the Harsh Military Air,” where he describes the combat path of the assault aviation regiment, the first in the Red Army to receive the Il-2 for service. So, the regiment has been at the front since June 26. In two months of fighting, it lost 65 planes! and went to the rear for reorganization. There, one moment is described - how 1 German, in front of everyone, destroyed 6 TB-3 bombers in one flight. There is no point in lying to the colonel, so a lot can be true.

[AlexxNik]

no one says that the Air Force, and especially the command, met the war fully armed, the commanders did not consider it necessary to fly in combat, there was no connection with the aircraft, Pokryshkin generalized the experience itself, the rest did the same who could. for which the top of the Air Force paid

[AlexxNik]

I took this example from G. Kornyukhin’s article “And again the Luftwaffe experts.”

In August 1942, in North Africa, a flight of Lieutenant Vogel, commander of the fourth group of the 27th fighter squadron, shot down 65 enemy aircraft in a month. Departing on a mission, the German pilots entertained themselves in the following way: shooting ammunition in the sand, they returned to the airfield and reported on the "victories" won. When they were finally revealed, they just disbanded the link, leaving all victories intact.

Apparently, this practice was not new, and therefore did not make a serious impression on the Germans. Here's another find

[Pimply]

But unfortunately Koryukhin doesn’t cite the original source, right?

[Simon]

It seems that the Germans shot down more of our aircraft during the Second World War than our industry was able to produce aircraft during the same period.

[Snoop]

As far as my memory serves me, since 1944 the rules for confirming downed aircraft in the Soviet Air Force have been tightened. In addition to confirmation by ground troops, they began to demand a farbenmark, the serial number from the downed plane. This was done by special commissions.

[Oles]

How I am touched by these empty attempts of pseudo-historians and historical lawyers to justify the mediocrity of the Soviet Air Force..... it’s time to admit that our pilots were mediocrity, our planes were mediocre, but the tactics were generally worse than the First World War.. even the Chinese probably fought better than us. ... this is necessary.. here one commentator agreed to the point that shooting down enemy planes is not the job of fighters at all... that’s how you understand..... some German points, marks, payment.. what nonsense.. ... it’s worth admitting that the Germans beat us as they wanted and openly made fun of us.... the whole history of our air force is just darkness and horror..... I don’t even want to talk about this shame...

[m.vz.2016]

Divide the number of sorties (battles) by the number of days spent by the pilot at the front for the Germans, Americans, British and ours. The result will greatly surprise you.

[radar08]

I think no one will find the truth in this dispute. She lies somewhere in the middle. There were no doubts about the additions on both sides, I think this is indisputable. No documents will show the truth now. One can only guess what actually happened. I think it is wrong to make cowards out of the Germans; in the opinion of our veterans there was a strong enemy, this is undeniable. The fact that ours were weaker in every sense at the beginning of the war, with rare exceptions, is also a fact. Many aspects of the supporters of large accounts have weaknesses. Even without looking at the numbers, we can firmly say that 5-6 flights a day and more regularly are lies. Physically, no one can stand it. Talk to veteran pilots if possible. And if the number of aircraft shot down at the beginning of the war - 41-42 can be assumed to be large, then in the subsequent time it already raises doubts. How many planes can you shoot down in one flight in a free hunt using Hartman's tactics? You can suddenly attack a group of planes once, then the surprise disappears. Or was it just for him that everyone flew in packs without noticing. Therefore, in 2 sorties there were 11 aircraft... In general, disputes are useless. In the end, victory is ours, and I don’t think anyone disputes the shortcomings of our command before the war, which bordered on crime.

[m.vz.2016]

The “phenomenon of Goering aces” looks completely different. if you don’t “stupidly” start from the number of shot down, but count the number of shot down per air battle.
For Gulaev this figure is more than 1, for Kozhedub - more than 0.5, and for the much-advertised Hartman - slightly more than 0.4.
But even this is not the whole truth!
If you divide the number of combat sorties (and, accordingly, the number of air battles conducted) by the number of days spent by each pilot at the front, the result will be surprising
even more!
For the Germans, these figures are also 4-6 times higher than those of not only Soviet pilots, but also the pilots of the anti-Hitler coalition! If ours have this indicator of about 0,3 combat sorties per day spent at the front, then for the same Hartman and the rest of the Luftwaffe pilots - almost all of them are about 1!
Those. Every day he spent at the front, Hartman managed to make more than 1 combat mission! And if we also take into account the days spent in captivity, in the hospital, on vacation, spent on relocation to other airfields, bad weather...
How the Germans managed to surpass the other pilots of World War II by 5 or more times in this indicator, for whom, “for some reason,” this indicator was almost the same, every sane person can do for himself. However, I am sure that no one will be able to find any other explanation other than the specifics of the “Goebbels calculation”.

[WeiS]

When discussing problems similar to those described above, in addition to involving documents, both original and affidavits of participants in the events, it would not be amiss to look at the problem from a slightly different plane. Regarding the “accounts” of, say, Hartmann, Graf or Novotny - this is somewhat difficult, but as for Rudel, let’s try to simply count.
During the Great Patriotic War, the losses of Soviet tanks are estimated by various authors at 98000 - 104000 units. The loss statistics are also known, the main losses in tanks, as expected, were suffered by the Red Army from German artillery (more than 60%), then tanks, heavy infantry weapons, mines, German aviation (and its allies) accounted for 2,5% of those destroyed Soviet armored vehicles, it is easy to calculate that Mr. Rudel alone destroyed approximately 20% of the total number of all Soviet tanks destroyed by the Luftwaffe.

[irokez73]

I’ll add my two cents, in addition to the statement about the influence of propaganda on the ace’s score, there is another important factor that the fox mentioned in passing. these are different ways to confirm a downed plane. So in the Red Army two eyewitnesses were needed in the air and one from the ground. if I am not mistaken. It seems they were still practicing photographing the place where the downed plane fell. in the Luftwaffe, a movie camera was turned on in the plane along with the weapon and recorded the moment of shooting on film, which was then sent to the competent authorities where experts analyzed the hits and made decisions about whether the enemy plane was disabled or not. I would even say this - whether the plane is combat-ready after being hit or not. and this is a very big difference! Pokryshkin in his memoirs mentions enemy aircraft shot down in solo flights behind the front line, which he did not even try to count for obvious reasons. There was also the concept of being shot down in the group. so who knows how many Soviet pilots would have had downed planes with the German approach to the issue. IMHO.

[RoTTor]

Astronomically unrealistic numbers of “victories” are Goebbels propaganda. No more. Count for yourself: how many aircraft are in an air regiment, division, corps, air force. army, i.e. within the FRONT. Those. According to fascist figures - one fascist single-handedly destroyed an entire VA? On the theater of operations of an entire front? In general, who won the war in the air? According to fascist figures, this is how they are

[m.vz.2016]

The “phenomenon of Goering aces” looks completely different. if you don’t “stupidly” start from the number of shot down, but count the number of shot down per air battle.
For Gulaev this figure is more than 1, for Kozhedub - more than 0.5, and for the much-advertised Hartman - slightly more than 0.4.
But even this is not the whole truth!
If you divide the number of combat sorties (and, accordingly, the number of air battles conducted) by the number of days spent by each pilot at the front, the result will be surprising
even more!
For the Germans, these figures are also 4-6 times higher than those of not only Soviet pilots, but also the pilots of the anti-Hitler coalition! If ours have this indicator of about 0,3 combat sorties per day spent at the front, then for the same Hartman and the rest of the Luftwaffe pilots - almost all of them are about 1!
Those. Every day he spent at the front, Hartman managed to make more than 1 combat mission! And if we also take into account the days spent in captivity, in the hospital, on vacation, spent on relocation to other airfields, bad weather...
How the Germans managed to surpass the other pilots of World War II by 5 or more times in this indicator, for whom, “for some reason,” this indicator was almost the same, every sane person can do for himself. However, I am sure that no one will be able to find any other explanation other than the specifics of the “Goebbels calculation”.

[Molot1979]

It is worth adding that the same Hartman was often credited with victories only from his own words. He flew - then he said that he met 4 Il-2s and shot them all down in 120 shots, although even the technicians were crazy about this figure - it was impossible. But Hartman himself said it! We were stricter. Pokryshkin, for example, believed that he shot down more than 80 German aircraft in battles. But only those for which he was able to provide concrete evidence were counted. At the same time, both Pokryshkin and Kozhedub at the end of the war “gave” victories to young pilots. In reality their bills were higher.
Rudel is just a liar. How much, you say? Three tank armies one? And 4 more armored trains, a battleship and + some aircraft? An amazingly modest person could chalk up all the destroyed and damaged Soviet equipment to his account. Just look at the destruction of Il-2 and fighters on this Yu-87 iron. Rudel also wrote that after his attacks the tanks exploded and he flew through their wreckage many times. Through the wreckage of exploded tanks. Although usually in an internal explosion there is only one piece of debris - the tower. The Krauts screwed up the real war. But they confidently won the virtual memoir competition. The world eats obvious blatant lies and doesn’t frown. And it turns out to be a paradox when the Germans beat a hundred at a time in one fell swoop, and for some reason the war ended in Berlin.

[dep071]

Another advantage of the Russian miracle hero: he won most of his victories in 1943

The Airacobra came to hand, it was an ambiguous plane.

[Vincant]

The article is very contradictory because:
1. The Germans counted “victories” not by downed planes, but by downed engines.
That is, for shooting down a 4-engine B-17, the pilot received “4 victories.”
Whether it’s right to think so or not is not for us to judge...
and be that as it may, the fact remains a fact. Why didn't the author mention this?
This is the reason for the inconsistency in quantity... 70 is a lot,
BUT these are MOTORS, not airplanes.

2. So why did the Germans shoot down so many?
It's all about the starting flight time of 200+ hours and subsequent experience.
There are at least 2 ways to understand and realize this.
The first option is for enthusiasts:
We hire a pilot on a sports plane and ask him to take us for a ride,
to reach at least 5-6G. Then we realize that we are crap :) ,
and fighting on verticals requires a hell of a lot of preparation and training.
And now 20 flight hours versus 200 are not empty numbers for us,
and suddenly they make sense. (by the way, it’s not expensive, only 120 - 150 $)
Second option for mom’s warriors:
We install the IL-2 flight simulator and play against other experienced players online.
We analyze our game after 2, 20 and 200 hours... we draw conclusions.
And we don’t ask any more questions about why German pilots kept everyone on the propeller :)

Good luck and good luck to everyone!

[DejurnyKR]

Thank you. Much more answer than in the article.

[Dron_sk]

The key figures are how many fighters and attack aircraft were used by both sides during the war. And how many working aircraft remained with both sides by the time the war ended.
The article states that Germany used 48 thousand fighters during the war. And the USSR has 80 thousand, plus 20-30 thousand from its allies. To this we add the fact that by the end of the war in Germany, most of these 48 thousand were destroyed, and in the USSR some of those 80 thousand remained in service; among the Allies in general, as I understand it, most of them remained in service. So the losses in fighters, if not 1 to 1, are then only 1 to 1,5 in favor of Germany.
If Germany had a truly significant number of aces who shot down hundreds of our planes, then to win we would have to build tens of times more planes and the losses in fighters and attack aircraft would not be 1 to 1,5, but many times greater.
And if we take into account the fact that the Germans shot down and eliminated most of our combat ace pilots at the very beginning in 1941 in unequal conditions during the blitzkrieg, and then fought in many sectors against unfired youth, then it becomes clear that about some kind of super-professionalism of the Germans there is no need to talk about pilots. There was only an objective advantage of experienced pilots against inexperienced youths, and even in battles under unequal conditions.

[DejurnyKR]

Gods, what cheap propaganda.... the author asks the right question about the reasons for the difference in the effectiveness of fighter aces, then he goes on for a long time and deliciously about “how difficult it is to record a victory on the Stuka and what a crappy plane it is,” after which he makes a knight’s move and, based on this, proposes DIVIDE THE GERMAN ACES INTO TWO ACCOUNTS. Generally. This is a fraud.
By the way, the “German Meresyev” did have a camera - the explosion of “Marat” was captured by the shooter in the photo. If anyone is interested, check out Wikipedia on the topic.
Then it’s generally the finish line - the enemy beat ours more and better because ours had a numerical advantage. So, at the same time, the question was - how, even despite the numerical superiority of the enemy, did the enemy manage to work so well? The author throws stones at the wrong bowl.
And of course, then the hand waving begins, “but I smell and hear well.” They were never shot down... does this explain the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe? Or is the author just getting burned out? The same Bubi, by the way, was regularly hit by the remains of the cars he shot down as a result of his tactics - point-blank attacks.
The article is a complete disappointment. I thought now they would start analyzing tactics, making comparisons, talking about supply problems, comparing the performance characteristics of aircraft... and here you have it - 'float up' and 'float up'.... shame on you, author. Clickbait.

[Vladimir Novikov_2]

It’s hard to recognize the skill of the enemy, especially in the days of frenzied victory....