UEC Report: Quiet Joy with a Little Question

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Before the start of the International Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg, specialists and leaders of various levels from the United Engine Corporation followed several statements and speeches at once on the topic of how things are going in the UEC with engines for the naval fleet Russia.

And things, based on what has been said, are getting better. And this cannot but rejoice, because our fleet is our pain, we root for it and worry about it. And how not to worry when the painting is just oil: the Germans put us in sanctions, so instead of German diesels, we put Chinese ones on our missile ships. Such a reason for pride that your teeth grind, especially when you read that you had to cut the ship lengthwise to extract this Chinese diesel engine, which turned out to be unusable.



Yes, everything was very sad with the engines. Especially with large ones, for ships from the frigate and above. Well, and not at all better from the corvette and below, to be honest.

And once, however, thirty years ago and in a completely different country, we fully provided the fleet with the entire line of engines, from a raid boat to a heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser.

But these times, alas, remained in storiesso let's see what to celebrate today.

Today, according to the UEC, one can rejoice that the experimental design development on marine gas turbine diesel engines, which began at the beginning of the XNUMXs, is finally almost completed.

UEC General Designer Yuri Shmotin told about the steps that were taken by the corporation as part of the program to create domestic marine power units.

In 2006 and 2008, respectively, the development of marine gas turbine engines was presented: M75RU with a capacity of 7 hp. and M000FRU with a capacity of 70 hp. respectively.

In 2014, the implementation of the second part of the program began. And from 2014 to 2017, three series of development work were successfully completed.

1. The technology of serial production of the 27 hp engine has been developed.
2. Developed a reversible gas turbine engine M70FRU-R.
3. On the basis of the M70FRU-2 engine, a GTA was developed for hovercraft.

These R&D projects carried out by PJSC UEC-Saturn, which is based in Rybinsk, have made it possible to replace the engines of the Ukrainian manufacturer Zorya-Mashproekt DO63 and DS71, which we are in demand.

Until now, we have been completely dependent on the Ukrainians for the production of such engines. We can say that since 2018, a light has dawned on us at the end of the tunnel, and if everything goes as expected, it will be possible to forget about the shortage of Ukrainian engines.

UEC Deputy Director General Viktor Polyakov is also very optimistic. Polyakov believes that the created line of engines from 7 to 000 hp. (although there are only three of them) will be able to cover all the needs of the fleet in the short and medium term.

Polyakov is confident that, in addition to the mass production of engines, UEC is capable of arranging warranty and post-warranty service, maintenance and repairs of all levels.

UEC, according to the statements of employees of different levels, is ready to provide ALL surface ships of the Navy with gas turbine power plants. This statement, shall we say, looks very loud.

"In particular, the corporation is ready to provide the Navy with engines for use in air-cushion landing ships of projects 12061 and 12322, corvettes of project 20386, frigates of projects 22350 / 22350M and 11356, as well as ships in operation during their modernization.", - noted in the UEC.

As for the modernization of ships that are already in operation - here it depends exactly on which ships. It is doubtful that this can be organized for the "Moscow" or "Varyag", since the engines for them were not made in Russia.

By the way, about the replaced Ukrainian engines.

The fact that three engines have been replaced is wonderful. Frigates, corvettes, landing ships - it's worth rejoicing. Especially for the frigates, which we really need.

However, for action in the far ocean zone, ships of a slightly different scale are needed and, accordingly, with different power plants.

And here it is worth remembering the engines that remained there, in Ukraine, at Zorya-Mashproekt. DM33L with 45 hp, DA000 with 80 hp. - we also need such engines. For other ships that are still in the future. Larger than a frigate.

Is it possible to simultaneously build the engines that are needed today and work on the engines that will be needed tomorrow?

I am sure - yes, you can.

We were able to solve the problem with engines for frigates. M55R engines have already been delivered for Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov. It is from that line that replaced the Ukrainian engines.

Nice deal, isn't it? But we must go further.

It is assumed that the M90FR will become the basis for the creation of new marine engines.


Gas turbine engine М90ФР. Photo: United Engine Corporation

UEC is considering options for creating a 25 MW / 34 hp engine. based on M000FR. Then there is a range of motors ranging from 90 MW (25 hp) to 34 MW (000 hp).

The UEC says it will be able to supply about 20 M90FR engines. Is it a lot, is it not? This is essentially 10 ships. The corporation understands that this is not so much. Considering the need for scheduled engine replacements and repairs.

UEC specialists confidently believe that imported engines on ships may well be replaced by M90FR during major overhauls. True, given the age of such ships and the cost of replacing the gas turbine engine, no direct decision was made, but a theoretical possibility exists. As today, the UEC is carrying out major overhauls of the same Ukrainian engines.

However, it should be said that at least over 20 years a lot has been done in terms of import substitution, in order to seriously say that everything has been replaced by the efforts of the UEC and the fleet will probably have no shortage of engines. prematurely.

While it is worth noting that there are engines at the "corvette-frigate" level. As a cruise M70FRU, as an afterburner M90FR. At a lower level (small rocket ships, artillery ships, landing ships), you can use engines based on the same M70FRU with a capacity of 10 to 13 thousand hp.

Interestingly, the base engine of the M70FRU family was designed back in 2008, but alas, no one needed it. If someone does not remember, then this engine was intended for project 20380 corvettes, which they decided to equip with imported diesel engines at the top. German.

Then the sanctions began, and instead of the German ones, the Chinese ones were installed with all the consequences. And there were no orders for M70FRU.

And now, when we really played out, we remembered that we have our own developments. And in a fairly short time, they created two modifications on the basis of the M70FRU, the M70FRU-R with a reversible turbine for surface ships and the M70FRU-2 for air-cushion landing ships.


Gas turbine engine M70FRU. Photo: United Engine Corporation

It is believed that the M70FRU is a completely modern engine at the level of foreign analogues and is in no way inferior to imported ones in terms of new products such as a local automated control system, a vibration diagnostics system and other innovations.

And the basic model M70FRU is generally planned to be produced as the main propulsion system for promising corvettes and frigates.

In addition, within the framework of the agreement, which was concluded by the UEC with the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, a new generation marine engine is in operation. Let it be the fifth, we love to give numbers.

34 hp, a low-emission combustion chamber, a bunch of new high-temperature corrosion-resistant alloys - all this (according to the same Shmotin) within the framework of the project promises a whole platform for the creation of engines for various purposes and different powers.

As they say in the UEC, today they use domestic materials created with the help of additive technologies and are not inferior in their characteristics to foreign counterparts. I want to believe. I really want to.

In general, I would like to wish all the UEC employees every success. Considering that this corporation, or rather, its marine department from Rybinsk, did not appear in high-profile scandals, but gradually made engines and turbines, it would be just fine if they continued this activity just as quietly for the benefit of the fleet.

Well, you must admit that these German MAN, licensed and unlicensed Chinese engines are not serious. Only Russian equipment should be on the Russian ships. This is a guarantee of security in the first place and a certain amount of patriotism in the last.

So there is reason for pride. On the "Saturn" really beautifully coped with the task.
But the question remains about large engines and gas turbine engines for large ships from the destroyer and above.
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  1. +21
    28 June 2021 04: 02
    quietly then we will rejoice, and when they go into series, and there are no complaints, then we can loudly rejoice.
    1. +12
      28 June 2021 04: 26
      Quote: Dead Day
      quietly then rejoice
      So there is reason for pride
      And on this occasion drinks
      1. +28
        28 June 2021 05: 55
        Here the joy is still in question. Turbines are good, very good, but a marine engine is also a gearbox. But with this we are somehow not very fun, "Zvezda" so far is not too happy with its successes.
        The issue of installing M-20380FRU gas turbines on corvettes 85/70 looks attractive, but only on the condition that there will be a gearbox, and not a simple one, but with the distribution of torque from one turbine to two shafts (for economic operation), and both turbines, with afterburner maximum stroke. Can Zvezda please us with such a reducer?

        At this exhibition there is still reason for cautious optimism ... if only the new air defense system presented there from Almaz-Antey has its own radar ... let's say a version of Polyment, truncated in power, but with the same functionality and software. I mean of course "Resource". If this is not a fake and not stupidity from journalists who did not understand the issue.
        If this suddenly turns out to be true, if he has his own - his own radar from Almaz-Antey, if this radar is in nature at least in a single prototype ... That would be VERY good. For now the entire line of corvettes 20380/85 is only conditionally combat-ready for the air defense system. But a whole new series has been ordered with the construction of two shipyards.
        So to raise toasts, I would abstain for now and wait for more reliable information.
        1. +9
          28 June 2021 06: 07
          Quote: bayard
          I would abstain for now

          We chew little ... feel
          1. +5
            28 June 2021 15: 18
            For a little, and solely for the sake of health - you can. Yes
            1. +5
              28 June 2021 17: 04
              I have not put + Skomorokhov for a long time, I hope the gearboxes will get used to it!
              Quote: bayard
              For a little, and solely for the sake of health - you can. Yes

              drinks
        2. +8
          28 June 2021 11: 01
          The issue of installing M-20380FRU gas turbines on corvettes 85 \ 70 looks attractive, but only on the condition that there will be a gearbox, and not a simple one, but with the distribution of torque from one turbine to two shafts (for economic operation), and both turbines, with the afterburner maximum stroke. Can Zvezda please us with such a reducer?


          Soon he will be able to. A prototype of the 6RP new generation gearbox complex is being prepared for testing.
          ... The St. Petersburg manufacturer of marine engines and heavy gearboxes "Zvezda" is preparing to start testing a prototype of a 6RP new generation gearbox complex. As the Sudostroenie.info correspondent was informed on June 25 during the International Maritime Defense Show at the company's stand, the final assembly of the product is currently underway.

          According to the representative of "Zvezda", the 6RP gear complex includes two gearboxes and an inter-gear transmission, united on a single frame. The nodes will be tested individually and then assembled. The total weight of the complex is about 100 tons.



          The 6РП complex belongs to the new generation gear units. When creating it, the designers left the classic layout, placing the main equipment on a single frame. This made it possible to reduce the total weight, simplify installation, as well as increase the resource and reliability of the equipment.

          Recall that the 6RP gearbox complex was developed for the corvette of project 20386.The complex combines two gas turbine engines with a capacity of 20 MW each and an electric propulsion system with a capacity of 1,6 MW. The maximum transmittable torque is 800 kNm.

          https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/33547.html

          Regarding the PO55 gearbox manufactured by PJSC "Zvezda" (St. Petersburg) for the diesel-gas turbine unit DGTA-M55R of the project 22350 frigate under construction for the Russian Navy.
          ... As reported on October 23, 2020 by PJSC "Zvezda" (St. Petersburg), gearboxes of PJSC "Zvezda" for the first domestic power plant of the project 22350 frigate have successfully passed qualification tests, as well as tests as part of a diesel-gas turbine unit, the developer and manufacturer of which is NPO Saturn (PJSC UEC-Saturn). By the decision of the qualification commission, the enterprise was recognized as ready for serial production and delivery of products.


          ... Work on a large-scale project to master the production of a new type of PO55 gear drives has been going on at the plant since 2017. On the instructions of the President of the Russian Federation, the plant was tasked with mastering the production of new heavy gearboxes in the shortest possible time, including for project 22350.

          The specialists of PJSC "Zvezda" completed the revision of the technical documentation and performed a large amount of work on the preparation of production, the manufacture of parts and assembly units, assembly and testing, including the creation of a unique test bench.

          The gearbox provides full forward power when the gas turbine engine is running 27200 hp, when the diesel engine is running - 5069 hp; its weight is about 40 tons. This is a complex technical product, consisting of about 5000 nomenclature items of components. In production, only components of our own and Russian production are used, for which it was necessary to create a wide network of interfactory cooperation.

          https://maxpark.com/community/5392/content/7248274
          1. +6
            28 June 2021 16: 19
            Quote: OrangeBigg
            Recall that the 6РП gearbox complex was developed for the corvette of project 20386.

            Quote: OrangeBigg
            The complex combines two gas turbine engines with a capacity of 20 MW each

            But this is a completely different gearbox and completely different turbines ... For a completely different corvette.
            Both in the article and I was talking about GTU M-70FRU for corvettes 20380 \ 85 pr., And these are completely different ships, which today are equipped with diesel pairs from Kolomna diesel engines of insufficient power. The installation of two M-70FRU could increase the thrust-to-weight ratio and speed, but a gearbox with torque distribution to both shafts from each turbine is needed (to ensure economic progress). In the same way as done on 6РП, but on other turbines and without electric propulsion (6РП for 20386, M-90FR turbines are provided for it).
            But the fact of the matter is that it is even impossible to look at Project 20386 without amazement and irritation ... everything is so absurd there, contrary to engineering logic and common sense, that it is to rejoice at its new power plant, which is more expensive and more complicated (in terms of gearbox) than from frigate 22350, but less useful and threatens to spray forces and means to the detriment of the production of the much needed PO55 for project 22350 ... somehow it does not work.
            The Navy does not need this perversion of engineering thought (20386), and the High Command has already announced this - the maximum that awaits the hull of this miracle of technology is the fate of an experimental ship. And it is right .
            And the fact that USC continues to promote this project and broadcast about its intention to build them in hundreds ... so to this day they are promoting both the Leader destroyers (and certainly with a nuclear power plant), and a bunch of aircraft carrier projects ... They need orders and a budget , not Fleet Readiness.
            And where self-interest is above duty ... there is trouble.
            Six (SIX) frigates 6 are now stuck on the slipways and in the completion, and two more have been ordered, but not laid down. And they got stuck solely due to the lack of propulsion systems. But instead of speeding up work in this direction, "Zvezda" is scattering time, effort and money on a deliberately dead-end project. But they still have a power plant for two UDCs that are being built in Kerch, to sculpt, in addition to all of the above.
            Therefore, joy can be very quiet (so as not to frighten off) and careful. And only for PO55 for 22350. Everything else is just waiting ... in our case, waiting for a miracle.
            1. 0
              28 June 2021 16: 49
              It was in the article, and I was talking about the M-70FRU gas turbine for corvettes 20380 \ 85, and these are completely different ships, which today are equipped with diesel pairs from Kolomna diesel engines of insufficient power.


              There is, after all, a two-speed reverse gearbox RRD12000 hp for ship transmission from two diesel engines 16D49 manufactured by Kolomensky Zavod 6000 hp. everyone
              What is not happy?
              ... The ship's design uses 4 diesel engines manufactured by OJSC Kolomensky Zavod, dimension 26/26 and two RRD12000 gears. Each gear combines 2 engines into a diesel-diesel unit to work on one propeller, while the engines in it can work both together and separately. There is no inter-gear transmission, it is not possible to transfer power from the propeller shaft of one side to the propeller shaft of the other. The unit is used on corvettes of projects 20380, 20385 together with diesel generators of the Ural diesel engine plant ADG-630K, 4 pcs. to the ship.


              DDA12000 model of one side assembled with two diesel engines


              Diesel-diesel unit (DDA) with full power 12000 hp intended for use as part of the main power plant of the latest generation ships of the corvette type for operation on a fixed-pitch propeller; to operate on an adjustable pitch propeller. DDA 12000 is equipped with two modern diesel engines 16D49 with a capacity of 6000 hp each. from. each, has a two-speed reduction gear, providing joint and separate operation of diesel engines with a sound-insulating composite clutch, a local control, protection and control system built on a microprocessor base. The microprocessor control system allows equalizing the load on diesel engines, performing reverse modes and turning off, if necessary, one of the diesel engines.


              Reduction gear 6РП.


              ... The power plant of the corvette pr. 20386 "Daring" with partial electric propulsion CODLOG includes two afterburner M90FRU 27 HP GTEs. and rowing asynchronous trolling electric motors GED MX ADR-500-1600 8 hp with a set of electrical equipment that provides power from diesel generators, the interdigital transmission of the MRP ensures the transfer of power from one side to another.

              Gas turbine engines of lower power M70 and M75, created under the Ukrainian substitution program, do not find their place on the promising universal corvettes of the near sea zone - corvettes. It is not undertaken to restore the previous scheme with two afterburner FD and two propulsion gas-turbine engines MD and an inter-gear sustainer attachment MRP, which allows working from one port of the main engine to another or both at once. Electric propulsion, even partial, seems to be more promising.


              https://shoehanger.livejournal.com/547182.html
              1. +4
                28 June 2021 18: 10
                Quote: OrangeBigg

                There is, after all, a two-speed reverse gearbox RRD12000 hp for ship transmission from two diesel engines 16D49 manufactured by Kolomensky Zavod 6000 hp. everyone
                What is not happy?

                So I say that he is. But it is not satisfied with the extremely insufficient power, and as a result - the speed of the corvettes of pr. 20380 and especially 20385. For German diesels should have been more powerful.
                And since the article talked about the fact that initially for 20380 a power plant was proposed at the M-70FRU GTU (2 x 14 l / s), and the question of returning to these power plants was raised, the question arose whether Zvezda was ready. make such a gearbox within an acceptable time frame.
                And you tell me about the 6RP, which is ... more complicated than two PO55 gearboxes, but produces much less power on the economic run.
                And why is there an electric motion? belay
                In this form?
                For quietness in search mode?
                So it will not be it - low noise, because the electric motor does not work directly on the shaft, but on the gearbox.
                Which makes NOISE.
                It would be better for this misunderstanding of engineering thought (20386) they installed a power plant from 22350 - the same turbines for full speed (afterburner) and normal diesel engines of 6000 l / s (and not 2200 l / s) for economic progress, which will provide good parameters economic move.
                And if you need real secrecy, then JUST make an electric transmission - turbines and diesel engines work directly to generate electricity. en. , and that, in turn, rotates the electric motors of the propellers - in a straight line. As already done on icebreakers and submarines.
                Since the gearbox is eliminated, the noise level will drop dramatically. Like all types of vibrations.
                And this gearbox ... it's just some kind of monster - meaningless and merciless.
                Difficult, dear, hard ...
                What for ?
                There is only one conclusion - in order to spray the already feeble forces of the domestic engine and gearbox structure, to disrupt the launch dates and the production rate of PO55 for frigates 22350.
                It's obvious.
                And all other phraseology is just a disguise of sabotage and sabotage.
                Who is our initiator and lobbyist of this misunderstanding 20386?
                In the best times of our Fatherland, in the department of Lavrenty Pavlovich, these figures would have been talked quickly.
                ... Yes, in the old days, SUCH would simply not be allowed.

                But the very fact that such a complex gearbox with torque distribution on two shafts proved to be within the power of Zvezda is encouraging.
                So they can and can.
                But they are given a task ... strange people ...
            2. +1
              29 June 2021 01: 49
              All the problems of the fleet are in idiocy and betrayal above. We have everything to build a combat-ready fleet, we have money, personnel, school and experience, there are no only normal people capable of running the state.
        3. +1
          28 June 2021 16: 01
          I mean of course "Resource".

          The resource turned out to be renamed Redoubt. what
          1. +1
            28 June 2021 16: 30
            Quote: Alex777
            The resource turned out to be renamed Redoubt

            I noticed it. But if after the ordeals and scandals with the non-working "Zaslon", "Almaz-Antey" still freaked out and gave out "to the mountain" a truncated version of the "Polyment", with less power, range, but with the same functionality and software, for the long-suffering series of corvettes, then I'll just be happy. For these - will be able to. And at the cost of its "Zaslon" is almost equal to "Polyment" ... with disgusting quality.
            And the missiles there, yes - from the "Redoubt". As well as the picture with the corvette, where this "Redoubt" is installed.
            It seems that having untied the S-350, S-400 and S-500 projects, Almaz-Antey got his hands on this little thing.
            1. 0
              28 June 2021 17: 13
              SAM Resource for performance characteristics is not a fountain. Although it may be TTX only for the export version.
              The Almaz-Antey aerospace defense concern presented several new products at IMDS-2021, including the Resurs (3K96-3E) multichannel anti-aircraft missile system (SAM), designed to protect surface ships from manned and unmanned air attack at the close range, including those flying at extremely low altitudes. The complex will be equipped with promising ships of the Russian Navy.

              The main armament of Resurs is the 9M96E and 9M100E anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAMs) developed by the Fakel ICB. They were also shown at the jubilee maritime show.

              The complex can simultaneously track and destroy up to five targets. Maximum defeat height: for 9M96E missiles - 20 km, for 9M100E missiles - 4 km. The minimum height is 0,005 km. The maximum slant range of destruction of air targets: for 9M96E missiles - 28 km, for 9M100E missiles - 10 km. Minimum range: for 9M96E missiles - 1,5 km, for 9M100E missiles - 1 km ....
              Source: https://politexpert.net/251005-predstaviteli-koncerna-almaz-antei-raskryli-osobennosti-raket-dlya-novogo-zrk-resurs
              1. 0
                28 June 2021 18: 23
                Quote: OrangeBigg
                SAM Resource for performance characteristics is not a fountain. Although it may be TTX only for the export version.

                So for the corvettes, more is not needed. And the declared characteristics are no worse than the "Barrier", only that does not work. And it will not work, because these are not air conditioners ... for this you need COMPETENCIES ... and EXPERIENCE.
                Our corvettes 20380 \ 85 are equipped with "Redut" air defense missile systems, but they will not be able to pick up the radar system for it, because the "Polyment" corvette is redundant. air conditioners ...
                And it looks like, looking at these mockery of technology and people, "Almaz-Antey" did "freak out"! And he made a truncated version of "Polyment". In any case, I really want to hope so. Otherwise, where does the new name come from, if "Redoubt", it is also on the corvette in Africa - "Redoubt". But the new radar could give the name of the complex as a whole.
                But unfortunately at the moment there are no details, except for vague statements, two missiles and a picture of the corvette 20380, there is nothing about it ("Resource").
          2. 0
            28 June 2021 17: 24
            The resource turned out to be renamed Redoubt. what

            Hello, this is also quite an expected outcome. Is there somewhere to read about it?
            1. +1
              28 June 2021 18: 12
              I read about it on Morskoy. hi
              https://forums.airbase.ru/2021/05/t106653_91--razvitie-morskogo-oruzhiya-2019-2021-i-dalee.html
              1. +1
                28 June 2021 19: 21
                Judging by the description, "Resource" is a "Redoubt" for small ships, with short-range missiles, without radar (receives information from general ship radar equipment.
                request And what was that ? After all, he has already been there for a long time ... or has he learned something?
                After all, the problem was in his "marriage" with various radar corvettes ... but family life was not very good ...
                So nothing new, just export advertising.
                ... Zhzhzhurnalsty ... their mother EG ...
        4. 0
          28 June 2021 19: 59
          At this exhibition there is still reason for cautious optimism ... if only the new SAM from Almaz-Antey presented there has its own radar ... let's say a version of Polyment, truncated in power, but with the same functionality and software. I mean of course "Resource"

          Unfortunately, "Resource" in its current form is an attempt to turn the disadvantages of the long-suffering "Polyment / Redut" into advantages. Remember when he "lost" a rocket during the first tests? The Resource developer approached the problem in an original way. Let the surveillance radar give target designation for the missile defense system, and it flies to the lead point by inertia. Having reached the search point, the rocket should turn on the active homing head.
          Below is a photo from the stand "IMDS-2021" (TASS)

          On the left is 9M96E (although there will be E2), and on the right is 9M100E. The first is a medium-range missile defense system, and the second is a small one.
          Here are her bmpd photos


          I already wrote that the developers of the air defense system do not want to engage in system integration. Therefore, such decisions. I think that the mind will win someday and the short-range air defense system will be developed using the Tora missile.
          Sincerely
          1. +2
            28 June 2021 22: 20
            Quote: nobody75
            I already wrote that the developers of the air defense system do not want to engage in system integration. Therefore, such decisions. I think that the mind will win someday and the short-range air defense system will be developed using the Tora missile.

            The whole problem is that when the very first (in the Russian Federation) shipbuilding program was laid out, it was decided to install an air defense system with a single missile defense system on all ships. At the same time, the new air defense systems were still only in development. As a result, the ships were laid, and when the time came, the air defense systems were not ready for them. Remember how long it took to bring Polyment and Reduta missiles to work? But for the frigates, at least, the Polyment-Redut was brought up. But for the corvettes, a suitable radar was never created. Attempts to integrate "Fourke" did not give acceptable results ... and then there appeared adventurers with the idea of ​​"Barrier". Which also does not work, but the price goes out to a third of the total cost of the corvette.
            And it is very bad that the direct developer of the air defense system did not bother with the problems of the radar system.
            Yes, until recently it was overloaded with projects (S-350, S-500, etc.), but today, due to the unresolved issue of this problem, a whole class of ships was left without a normally working air defense system.
            Therefore, when I saw the new name for the already existing air defense system, I thought it was a sinful thing that Almaz-Antey did freak out and made a normally working radar for the Corvette Redoubt ... and he just finalized the algorithm for inertial launching of the rocket to the intersection point ... And if the target will maneuver?
            After all, all modern anti-ship missiles maneuver when approaching a target (ours are so) ...
            And what is the problem of solving the issue with radio correction?
            It's just a matter of combat algorithms.
            And in a much smaller part, the question of "hardware" ...

            And about the use of other air defense systems on corvettes, then yes, the question is raised regularly by caring people. But there's a problem . At the moment, a whole bunch of 20380 \ 85 corvettes with such an air defense system have already been built, under construction and are in order. And to change the air defense system on such a ship, this is its radical alteration. On this they will hardly go.
            Although for such a class of ships, the Pantsir-M and the naval version of the Torah would be quite sufficient. Moreover, the Pantsir missiles are much cheaper than even the Thor missiles, not to mention the Reduta missiles, which are all with a seeker.
            But since the ships have already been built and continue to be built, the issue must be resolved with the radar.
            And as soon as possible.
            And best of all, if this issue is dealt with directly by Almaz-Antey.
            And not by taking half measures, but by solving the issue of radio correction.
            Perhaps based on the algorithms of "Polyment".
            hi
            1. 0
              29 June 2021 22: 53
              Quote: bayard
              And if the target is to maneuver?
              After all, all modern anti-ship missiles maneuver when approaching a target (ours are so) ...

              The purpose of such maneuvering is to miss an air defense missile on the terminal leg of its flight.
              And not in the fact that during the time while the air defense missile is flying on an inertial plane, leave the zone of capture of its seeker.

              If the firing is at the ship, and the air defense missile is working out on a head-on course ... this is where the anti-ship missile system will have to fly away and maneuver?
              1. 0
                30 June 2021 03: 37
                I do not know if this algorithm has been tested by real launches, or is it just an announcement of new achievements .. but so far the complex / algorithm has not shown itself on any data ship. I hope so far, and I hope that he will soon show. For with the air defense system of corvettes, something needs to be decided.
                Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                If the firing is at the ship, and the air defense missile is working out on a head-on course ... this is where the anti-ship missile system will have to fly away and maneuver?

                It all depends on the sector of view of the seeker and the distance to the target when it is turned on. In principle, the anti-ship missile system should begin to maneuver immediately after leaving the radio horizon (line of sight). If, immediately after entering the line of sight, the anti-ship missile system makes a maneuver to the right, the air defense missile system calculates the lead and launches a missile, and the anti-ship missile system at this time makes a sharp maneuver to the left, then at the moment the seeker is turned on, the anti-ship missile system may not be in the view sector of the seeker missile defense system.
                A way out of the situation can be the sequential launch of two missiles, in the hope that the second will capture it for sure ... Although it would be better to resolve the issue of radio correction.
                Here is the "Pantsir" in general on its missiles without a seeker - it does only one radio correction. And he does well. And cheaper.
                So can the radio correction from the "Pantsir" be screwed onto the "Reduta" missiles?
                In general, I would put the "Shell" on the corvettes, and give the vacated space from the missile defense system under the "Answer" PLUR. There would definitely be more sense.
                Moreover, "Pantsir" would have delivered without an artillery unit - some missiles in a block (like "Frame"), above / behind the helicopter hangar, and would have left both AK-630s controlled by the "Pantsir" control system.
                But these are all dreams, this will not happen. Therefore, let the existing air defense system work somehow.

                In general, the Navy needs another corvette - inexpensive, but massive with a simplified air defense ("Pantsir-M" is the best solution), but with sufficient (!) Means of PLO, including PLUR.
    2. -5
      28 June 2021 10: 27
      you are being deceived - all the engines are already there. but one must also deceive the enemies. supposedly not a combat-ready fleet at one point and suddenly all the adversaries will sink and land the team's prize in London and Washington. we will do without large landings - we will frighten with rockets and the roar of secret engines (which allegedly have been "not yet" 10 years old)
      1. +3
        28 June 2021 10: 38
        Quote: antivirus
        you are being deceived - all the engines are already there. but one must also deceive the enemies. supposedly not a combat-ready fleet at one point and suddenly all the adversaries will sink and land the team's prize in London and Washington. we will do without large landings - we will frighten with rockets and the roar of secret engines (which allegedly have been "not yet" 10 years old)

        Well, yes, somewhere else there are several Project 23560 Leader destroyers hidden away. We believe and hope that in 10 years it will seem like this in reality. laughing
        1. -2
          29 June 2021 10: 18
          about the Leaders - it was necessary to let fog in - to depict a military coup on the outskirts - and the Leaders are hidden (already built) in the "steppes of Ukraine" on the ground, submarines in the steppes of Ukraine "(from the 60-70s)
    3. +6
      28 June 2021 10: 36
      German engine sanctions must not go unpunished.
      What will it be, gas prices, oil prices ... it doesn't matter.
      It is important that Nemchura pay for the losses Russia has incurred in connection with the sanctions.
      1. -1
        28 June 2021 15: 39
        Quote: prior
        It is important that Nemchura pay for the losses Russia has incurred in connection with the sanctions.

        Um ... Here BOTH candidates for the post of Chancellor say that Germany has a lever of pressure on Russia, and this is Nord Stream 2 ...
        So ... After Merkel, something may change in the policy of (foreign) Germany ...
        So, best of all, one must hope not for revenge on the nemchur, but for the positive and productive work of our shipbuilders and engine builders ... hi
    4. -3
      28 June 2021 19: 11
      laughing Are you sure? knowing Topvarovtsev, there will be a howl about "it was necessary yesterday and vaapsche" .. so here, in principle, they never rejoiced for Russian weapons ..
  2. kig
    +22
    28 June 2021 04: 09
    marine gas turbine diesels
    - this is a completely new word in diesel engineering! We need to develop further!
    1. 0
      28 June 2021 10: 25
      Well, the author was in a hurry, there are also typos, well, it happens)
      1. 0
        28 June 2021 16: 17
        However, J. I was ignorant and started to google. I thought something new was invented.
        1. 0
          3 July 2021 12: 08
          Quote: garri-lin
          However, J. I was ignorant and started to google. I thought something new was invented.

          Well, what stopped?
          "a combined power plant, in which internal combustion engines and gas turbines are used as main engines. At present, all Diesel-gas turbine plants are equipped with propulsion engines (ICE) and afterburner (GTE). In Diesel-gas turbine plants, it can be provided as a joint and separate use of the internal combustion engine and gas turbine engine (type CODAG), and only separate operation (type CODOG). The terms CODAG and CODOG are taken from the English classification and mean: in the first case "diesel and gas turbine", in the second - "diesel or gas turbine" The advantage of the CODAG diesel-gas turbine unit is the ability to sum up the powers of all main engines, the advantage of CODOG is that the afterburner engines provide full stroke speed regardless of the state of the propulsion. screw, and each on its own, as well as with power transmission. The development of Diesel-gas turbine units began in 1947.The complexity of the creation of Diesel-gas turbine units is due to different principles of control of jointly operating main engines: ICE - maintaining the speed set by the control action in any conditions by changing the fuel supply, GTE - maintaining constant fuel consumption due to changes in speed. Despite this, diesel-gas turbine units are currently the most common type of combined power plants. Prospects for the use of diesel-gas turbine units are determined by the duration of maintaining the specific advantages of the internal combustion engine (efficiency) and GTE (high power with low mass), as well as the need to ensure short-term afterburner and long-term economic modes of navigation of ships. "
          According to
          "MARINE ENCYCLOPEDIC DICTIONARY" in two volumes, volume 1. Edited by Academician N.N. Isanin
          1. kig
            0
            3 July 2021 13: 28
            Quote: mat-vey
            Well, what stopped?

            And the fact that a diesel engine (or just a diesel) + a gas turbine engine (in common parlance, a gas turbine) is a type of power plant in which engines of different types work. And "marine gas turbine diesel" is nonsense, a chimera. Have you heard a story about a problem for 3-graders, where it is proposed to draw a certain animal with long hair and wings, and it also gives milk and lays eggs? This "diesel" from the same opera. True, a layman cannot understand (no offense, please love ).
            1. 0
              3 July 2021 13: 41
              Quote: kig
              True, a layman does not understand

              But the "specialist" does not understand that for ordinary users there is no difference between the engine and the propulsion system, and no one bothers at all with the "power" installation .. Probably that is why the "non-specialists" understand that we are talking about a combined "ship power plant" ...
              1. kig
                0
                4 July 2021 04: 54
                Come on, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I just scratched my eye, could not resist.
                1. 0
                  10 July 2021 04: 50
                  Quote: kig
                  Come on, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I just scratched my eye, could not resist.

                  I also "scratched" that on a flood site someone requires general GOST formulations ... You probably forgive yourself a lot and don't "develop further"? ...
                  1. kig
                    0
                    10 July 2021 14: 54
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    requires general GOST wording
                    - this is not any GOST. Well, I also thought that if a person writes about engine building, he should at least understand the terms.

                    Quote: mat-vey
                    You probably forgive yourself a lot
                    - Hard to say. After all, if you made a mistake in something, then you did not know it, right? So how do you know that you were wrong? Therefore, I try not to discuss what I do not know.

                    Quote: mat-vey
                    do not "develop further" ?.
                    - - but I did not understand this at all, excuse me.

                    And in general, don't you think that we have left the topic? Which, moreover, closed itself long ago.
                    1. 0
                      10 July 2021 14: 55
                      Quote: kig
                      After all, if you made a mistake in something, then you did not know it, right?

                      And in my opinion a vulgar hack ..
          2. 0
            3 July 2021 15: 12
            Well, it's kind of different things. Cool typo and technical term.
            1. 0
              3 July 2021 16: 01
              Quote: garri-lin
              Well, it's kind of different things. Cool typo and technical term.

              And here with "technical terms" everything is very "democratic", but for some reason only certain "terms" are attracting increased attention ...
      2. 0
        3 July 2021 12: 17
        Quote: Stepan S
        Well, the author was in a hurry, there are also typos, well, it happens)

        These are the commentators in a hurry to flash ...
        "Project 22350 frigates of the" Admiral Gorshkov "type are a series of Russian multipurpose frigates of the 1st rank with guided missile weapons for the long sea and ocean zones under construction for the Russian Navy."
        GEM engines of CODAG type:
    2. 0
      3 July 2021 12: 14
      Quote: kig
      - this is a completely new word in diesel engineering! We need to develop further!

      But what's new? The Germans adopted their "Cologne" back in 1961 ...
  3. +4
    28 June 2021 05: 57
    As it says: "Moscow was not built right away"? Slowly, slowly create our own and do without snotty ... it's a pity that time is wasted, but "quiet joy" is also a joy ...
    1. -2
      28 June 2021 08: 48
      Quote: aleks neym_2
      Slowly, we will slowly create our own and do without snotty ...

      How much slowly? wink
      1. -2
        28 June 2021 09: 16
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        How much slowly?

        Yeah, Rogozin in general, in 2014 promised to replace these Ukrainian engines in 2, maximum 3 years. But in fact, 6 years have passed. So you must always keep this in mind when making plans.
        1. 0
          28 June 2021 17: 24
          Guys! What the bosses say (shaking) is one thing, but what is thought and created contrary to common sense is completely different ... as they say: "... through thorns to the stars ..." ... even quietly BUT WE LET'S GET OUT OF THIS SWEET - ON THE DEPENDENCE OF "LOVE AND US FEEDING" ... Did you find a lot of food in the gamerope (motor sich)?
  4. +6
    28 June 2021 06: 51
    This is a good and necessary business for the country, the creation of engines. But administrative measures should be taken in relation to the would-be managers responsible for this - "Interesting, but the basic engine of the M70FRU family was designed back in 2008, but alas, nobody needed it." After all, this is a waste of both time and money, and attention should be paid to the corruption component in order to suppress such, in the literal sense, sabotage in this area. And this applies not only to a specific engine.
    1. 0
      28 June 2021 19: 17
      laughing It's funny, especially if you remember how the military used to spit with shouts about "why should we buy them? We take them from the Ukrainians!" ..
      1. 0
        29 June 2021 05: 50
        And who said that we have no idiots? Still enough.
  5. +7
    28 June 2021 06: 54
    So there is reason for pride. On the "Saturn" really beautifully coped with the task.

    It is right! If you walk with a “sour face” all the time and list the shortcomings, then there will be no good mood in your work.
    ==========
    I see the reason for the lack of engineering and technical thought in the system of higher education, and the low rates of military shipbuilding in the absence of motivation for specialists and the expenditure of funds and forces on the construction of chambers, when slipways, shipyards, hangars, logistics bases, airfields, etc. ...
    It is not a sin to remember how China, having no industry, turned into an advanced industrial power. Majors, "Comedy clubs", festivals, beauty contests and charms - this is understandable, but the country must have (according to needs) and citizens of working specialties of high qualifications.
    1. +1
      28 June 2021 08: 50
      Quote: ROSS 42
      It is not a sin to remember how China, having no industry, turned into an advanced industrial power.

      Now they will tell you that the West has thrown a lot of dough into the development of China.
      In this regard, I have a question, why are we pumping a lot of money into other people's economies?
  6. +9
    28 June 2021 07: 03
    I'm not a specialist in engines, maybe the specialists will tell you if there are gas turbine diesels? Or is it gas turbine engines? With my modest knowledge, I suspect that these are different designs, or am I mistaken?
    1. 0
      28 June 2021 09: 42
      I myself have the same suspicions
    2. +4
      28 June 2021 10: 27
      Are there gas turbine diesels?

      Typo by the author. The text was not re-read before publication. We must understand and forgive.
      1. +4
        28 June 2021 11: 20
        Is the author's name Alexander Rodionovich Borodach?
        It seems that the surname is different ...
        A typo can be in one letter, it really happens. But putting two mutually exclusive terms in one phrase is not a typo, it is unprofessionalism.
        As for the essence of the note, the final chord "But the question of large engines and gas turbine engines for large ships from a destroyer and above remains open" it was necessary to begin the first paragraph. For it is he who reflects the meaning of the article. The rest of the enthusiasm for the little things - from the aria "all is well, beautiful marquise."
  7. +5
    28 June 2021 07: 05
    Well, you must admit that these German MAN, licensed and unlicensed Chinese engines are not serious. Only Russian equipment should be on board Russian ships. This is a guarantee of security in the first place and a certain amount of patriotism in the last

    .. and this is all already ship's Diesel .... and everything is fine for them, and in the USSR there was no.
  8. +5
    28 June 2021 07: 58
    This "brotherhood of peoples" has cost us dearly. Now we are going to get out of it.
    1. +5
      28 June 2021 08: 52
      Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
      This "brotherhood of peoples" has cost us dearly.

      The stupid policy of "our" government is costing us dearly.
    2. +3
      28 June 2021 09: 35
      This "brotherhood of peoples" has cost us dearly. Now we are going to get out of it.

      Not wrong, it will be right - the entire technological industry should be exclusively in the Metropolis, and not on the outskirts and colonies.
      Right now, high-tech production is concentrated in Tatarstan. But he will be next under attack (to break away), after Ukraine. The same rake.
      1. 0
        28 June 2021 09: 47
        As for the metropolis, you are right. Can not argue. I think this ukro-Maidan will be a good lesson for all of us. You can’t hope for someone else. You need to think about your interests, first of all. Look at the Americans and the British. Historically, there were also some common roots. But it would never occur to them to call each other "brotherly people." All relations between them are exclusively, mutual benefit. " and it is right!" As our "beacon of perestroika" said))
      2. +3
        28 June 2021 15: 25
        it will be correct - the entire technological industry should be exclusively in the Metropolis

        Wrong. During the collapse of the USSR, it was necessary to leave all the production of union subordination in Russia, as the legal successor of the USSR. Something like TNCs (transnational corporations). And then, how to pay the debts of the USSR - so Russia, and how to dispose of the union enterprises built on budgetary money of the USSR - so give it to various local limitrophes. EBN never had any brains.
  9. -3
    28 June 2021 09: 26
    Then the sanctions began, and instead of the German ones, the Chinese ones were installed with all the consequences.
    This once again shows how "mediocre" management. It is necessary to drive such people, and it is better to plant them for sabotage.
  10. +4
    28 June 2021 09: 40
    "to equip German and American diesel engines" are better engines.
    Unfortunately, in the 90s, under EBN, they did not think with their heads, and the Chinese bought a license for a German diesel engine. In Minsk, they also built a joint venture with Steier, but they did not think about us for the future.
    As a result, it was necessary to make up for
    1. -4
      28 June 2021 14: 13
      Yeah, for 20 years now, a friend has been making up for himself, and things are getting worse and worse ...
  11. 0
    28 June 2021 09: 41
    Only Russian equipment should be on the Russian ships. This is a guarantee of security in the first place and a certain amount of patriotism in the last.

    The state will not spare the money - they just have to move one place so that the money will flow like a river into their pockets. After all, it's easy to imagine - a complete monopoly on marine engines, this is how much dough they can raise, for the sake of this it is worth moving one place.
    Although, if the wages of the hard workers are not changed, and the basic (material) funds are not renewed, none of the qualified will go there.
  12. +1
    28 June 2021 09: 54
    Comrades, Roman has NEVER been a shipbuilder and is not a specialist in engines. I and many of us here are not a fig not specialists. And therefore I ask: who in the "topic" enlighten us
  13. -1
    28 June 2021 10: 02
    Quote: Ingvar 72
    Quote: ROSS 42
    It is not a sin to remember how China, having no industry, turned into an advanced industrial power.

    Now they will tell you that the West has thrown a lot of dough into the development of China.
    In this regard, I have a question, why are we pumping a lot of money into other people's economies?

    And on my own I would add: to the Olympics and football
  14. +1
    28 June 2021 10: 17
    I advise you to read the original source of the material https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11715059
  15. 0
    28 June 2021 10: 40
    A retelling of a TASS article?
  16. Eug
    +1
    28 June 2021 11: 49
    The author is a song, talked about the developments "... on marine gas turbine diesel engines" (if you don't believe or haven't seen - the end of paragraph 6) ...
    1. +2
      28 June 2021 15: 28
      I have already been banned for some doubts about the competence of some individual author-multi-stationer.
  17. +19
    28 June 2021 11: 58
    Damn, well, how much you can.

    If someone does not remember, then this engine was intended for project 20380 corvettes, which they decided to equip with imported diesel engines at the top. German.

    Then the sanctions began, and instead of the German ones, the Chinese ones were installed with all the consequences. And there were no orders for M70FRU.


    No, this engine was never intended for corvettes 20380, they were immediately planned for diesel, with 4 Kolomna 16D49.
    And, no, no one decided to equip 20380 with German diesel engines.
    They decided to equip 20385 with them.
    And, no, when MTU blocked the supply of its diesels to the Russian Federation, 20385 were received not by Chinese, but by Russian diesels 16D49, as part of the DDRA similar to those that cost 20380.
    And the Chinese diesel engines began to be installed on the "buoys" of Project 21631, but alas, no one ever planned them for turbines - they were also designed for diesel engines.

    They wanted to make the M70 to continue the 11356 series - it was planned that there will be 4 such turbines as part of the power plant, but since they decided not to continue this series that the power plant was not needed, all forces were thrown at the power plant for 22350.

    Why not understand the topic before writing something?
    1. -2
      28 June 2021 14: 15
      "M70 wanted to do to continue the 11356 series - was it planned that the power plant will include 4" -chavo faq?
    2. 0
      28 June 2021 14: 24
      "they got not Chinese, but Russian diesels" how is it possible: Roman tried to put pressure on patriotism, and you "spoil the mass"
  18. +2
    28 June 2021 12: 57
    Regarding the "distant oceanic zone", in my opinion, for 30 years no one in the world has been building ships of the "Orlan" type.
    My sofa believes that the division: "frigate-corvette" is already outdated: corvette 20386 is already equal in capabilities: "Talaveram", and "Gorshkov" has already "outgrown" its class
    1. 0
      28 June 2021 14: 16
      20386 and Talvar is almost equal in displacement. And at the price of Gorshkov stretches.
      But yes, 20380/20385 are not corvettes. This is the same bundle as in the USSR, big Buki and small Worthy. Now there will be big Gorshkovs, and small Guardians.
      Here, by the way, Timokhin mriyal (and I am with him too) that with an insert from Karakurt you can get a replacement for Albatrosses. And then I remembered that we all have a charming 22160. There you don't even need to make an insert. You just need to re-equip. Well, put the afterburner. We must dream in this direction. bully
    2. 0
      30 June 2021 02: 33
      And we already have 20386 ... sort of like a hull or whatever (forgive the land one) moored with steep contours and that's it ... damn, it seems like the gearbox was being assembled for this project, thereby slowing down the series for other projects.
  19. +1
    28 June 2021 13: 07
    UEC is considering options for creating a 25 MW / 34 hp engine. based on M000FR. Next is a range of motors ranging from 90 MW (25 hp) to 34 MW (000 hp).

    I wonder if the Navy has real adequate ship designs for these "monstrous" engines? American cruisers and destroyers make do with four GTEs with a total capacity of 100 hp. I will assume that "warehouse work" is not practiced under capitalism, and someone needs these developments and someone pays for them. Or maybe a pair of 25 MW + 35 MW for four COGAG units for a promising aircraft carrier? ... what
  20. 0
    28 June 2021 13: 16
    The release of the gearboxes does not keep up with the GT engines. This is a weak point.
    1. 0
      30 June 2021 00: 40
      Yes, we have weaknesses everywhere, starting with bearings.
  21. 0
    28 June 2021 19: 24
    In fact, the turbines that go to frigates are quite suitable for larger ships. Their number just changes.
  22. 0
    28 June 2021 20: 38
    Nevertheless, we should not forget about the diesel engine.
    As far as I know, it is customary to use a combined power plant on large steamers.
    Diesel - economic power, diesel / turbine - maximum.
  23. -1
    28 June 2021 20: 59
    Today, according to the UEC, one can be glad that the experimental design work on marine gas turbine diesel engines, which began at the beginning of the XNUMXs, is finally almost completed.

    I would like to ask a question to the author of the article, does he understand what he is writing about?
  24. fiv
    0
    29 June 2021 09: 03
    "The development of marine gas turbine diesels is almost complete at last."
    On the principles of Newton's Seventh Law?
  25. +2
    30 June 2021 00: 39
    to develop engines without parallel supplies for civil shipbuilding is a dead end.
    in addition to plans for development, exactly the same plans for the construction of serial ships with engines are needed, for example, for fishermen, pleasure boats, as well as possible supplies abroad.
    Only a large series will allow you to have reserves for improvement and modifications.
    And making 1-3 unique engines for each project of military ships is, firstly, very expensive,
    and secondly, due to the low level of maturity, you get buggy products.
    In addition, when the staff has fine-tuned the chain of engine development and launch, everything will turn out faster and better. And suppliers fed by regular orders will, in theory, be able to fulfill orders better.
  26. +2
    1 July 2021 14: 49
    I see the concept of electric movement as promising, then diesel generators can be driven by some universal blocks and "gain" the necessary power with their number. In addition, such diesel engines usually live longer, since they operate at fixed speeds and non-classical designs can be used.
  27. 0
    1 September 2021 08: 47
    We must start by punishing those guilty of sabotage and sabotage, because of whose actions the fleet was supplied with imported engines.

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