The prosecution in the MH17 case has completed the provision of "evidence"

The case of the crash of the MH17 liner in Donbas in 2014, which is being considered by the District Court of the Netherlands, is entering a new stage of the process. Yesterday, June 17, the prosecution completed the provision of "evidence".

The prosecution reportedly paid close attention to the recordings of telephone conversations between the "separatists", which, in the court's opinion, makes it possible to establish the exact location of the persons allegedly involved in the transportation of the Buk air defense missile system and its use. The prosecution insists on Igor Strelkov's (Girkin's) involvement in the plane crash; at yesterday's meeting, his role in the case was discussed for a long time.

Meanwhile, the defendants deny the credibility of the records provided by Ukraine, claiming that they are fake and made by the SBU.

Also attached to the case are video recordings of "battles in the east of Ukraine", but without specifying the exact time and location of filming. The video was provided by the Dutch prosecutor's office, they were attached to the case to understand the situation in the conflict zone on the day of the plane crash.

The prosecutor's office continues to insist that on the day of the crash of the liner, there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of ​​the crash. At the same time, the prosecutor's office had questions about the place of the missile launch, since new data were added to the investigation in the form of the conclusion of the Russian defense concern Almaz-Antey, and they differ from the initial version provided by Ukraine.

Earlier it was reported that the court did not find evidence confirming the delivery of the Buk air defense system, from which flight MH2014 was shot down over Donbass in 17, from Russia. In addition, key witness Vladimir Tsemakh stated that he had never seen a Buk air defense missile system near Snezhny. Uncertainty is also brought in by the United States, which refused to provide satellite images from the MH17 crash site. More precisely - those who stated that they have some data, but they cannot be provided for general review due to their secrecy.

Comments

[knn54]

A few days after the Boeing crash, representatives of American intelligence said that, according to their information, the plane was shot down by mistake and it is possible that the Ukrainian military.

[Cananecat]

A few days after the Boeing crash

They handed it over carefully ... for confirmation by the Russian side ... and Russia is still silent.

[Ilya-spb]

False Dutch court, false Dutch prosecutors ... US puppets

[prior]

I have a question: "What are we doing in these so-called international courts, international organizations, in all these OSCE, WADA and other" gadyushniki "?
Isn't it obvious that there "smells of sulfur" ?!
Or are we masochists?

[Maikcg]

The local Dutch court has nothing to do with the above. But I agree that the position should be announced more clearly. The court is political, illegitimate), though he does not need it, Russia does not recognize this circus and is not going to take into account any of its decisions, open a criminal case on libel in the Basmanny court against the members of the court and impose personal sanctions.

[Vladimir Mashkov]

Quote: Ilya-spb

False Dutch court, false Dutch prosecutors ... US puppets

I totally agree with you! Why? "The prosecutor's office continues to insist that on the day of the crash of the liner, there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of ​​the crash. How could it not have happened, if there are witnesses of their presence and even the shooting, who were removed and their testimony was blurred?
Uncertainty in the case is also brought by the United States, which refused to provide satellite images from the crash site of MH17. They do NOT introduce uncertainty, but by their refusal to provide pictures that they undoubtedly have, affirm the guilt of Ukraine, because if the pictures spoke of the guilt of Russia, they would have been with the investigation a long time ago!

[krops777]

A few days after the Boeing crash, representatives of American intelligence said that, according to their information, the plane was shot down by mistake and it is possible that the Ukrainian military.

Yes, there are no mistakes here (they lie, as always), everything was clearly planned and under the control of the United States. The plane was led to the slaughter is a fact. With the evidence came out strained, Russia, as the practice has shown, highlighted like you will not take.

[Zaurbek]

Yes, maybe anything ..... Could be confused with something. Iran shot down a Ukrainian airliner ... there was no conflict at all and the airport was nearby.

[krops777]

Yes, maybe anything ..... Could be confused with something. Iran shot down a Ukrainian airliner ... there was no conflict at all and the airport was nearby.

The data of how the air traffic controllers led the plane was enough for me to answer the question of who was where and why.

[family tree]

If intelligence officials say something, it is not intelligence. These, even misinformation, are secret and purposeful. Although, they have these intelligence, like fleas on a barboske.
Yes, ours, purely physically, could not re-equip, retrain, so, damn it, I can’t eat, we have to fill up the Boeing on Kuroin.
The basic principle of air defense, wait, carry out, they will cancel. But the target that goes to your antenna is straight away.

[sidoroff]

this representative was someone Obama, who
dared to declare:
“We know for certain that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile launched from separatist-controlled territory,” he said at a press conference.
but who will believe him - after what he did in
Russian entrances.

[Dym71]

Quote: sidoroff

but who will believe him - after what he did in
Russian entrances.

Nothing of the kind, he laundered everything and is no longer playing pranks, so the good name is restored.

[Finches]

Everyone knows that Ukraine is to blame, but Russia must be to blame, but at least some sane proof is needed, therefore
Look for firefighters,
Looking for militia,
Looking for photographers
In our capital ...
- the laudatory democracy of the West in all its glory!

[Peak]

The prosecution in the MH17 case has completed the provision of "evidence"

Completed , while exhaling - "It's all"...

What can we ask - " And it's all ???" It's all yours "proof of"?

[Peak]

Quote: PiK

Is this all your "proof"?

Everything is as before, "in the good old days", only now it is not the mafioso who asks Ivan Danko (Schwarzenegger) about the evidence, but we are asking the international mafia:

[Maikcg]

This question has already been answered

[Peak]

Quote: MaikCG

aikCG (Mike) June 18, 2021 14:36

This question has already been answered

Perhaps - No, not cocaine , there they are clearly sticking out on some brutal synthetics ...

[Zaurbek]

How long does this topic go? There were pictures of "I-beam" fragments ..... and, of different shapes. One photo only. As far as I understand, after being hit by a BUK missile, there should be more than one kg of these ready-made submunitions (in the fuselage, corpses, things, equipment). The missiles in-in - others (pin, it seems, striking elements) ...
Why the "swing" is still there - How did you knock down MH-17?

[paul3390]

This is generally a madhouse of some kind - already after 7 years, not to bring the final clarity to what the plane was shot down .. In the presence of a complete set of debris .. An outspoken schizo gives.

[Zaurbek]

I can understand that it is difficult to determine who shot down .... But what did they shoot down with? This should be clear right away. If "Buk", then why the version about the plane? And vice versa....

[military_cat]

Quote: Zaurbek

Why the "swing" is still there - How did you knock down MH-17?

The investigation has not had any swing since 2015 (when the final report of the ICAO technical investigation was released). There is a swing only in the media - it is quite clear why.

[Zaurbek]

Is there, in the end, a BUK?

[military_cat]

Yes, the 9N314M warhead of the 9M38 series missile (meaning the 9M38 or 9M38M1, since the 9N314M warhead with I-beams, although intended for the 9M38M1, can theoretically be installed on both) Buk air defense systems.

[Zaurbek]

There, it seems, and the number was installed missiles ..... But the Ukrainians, without bothering, said "Fake"

[boris epstein]

And not just a number. The documents of the manufacturer were provided (former SBU colonel Vasily Prozorov, who went over to the side of the DPR), where and to whom these missiles were delivered. An anti-aircraft missile regiment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the city of Stryi, Lviv region. This regiment was redeployed first to Odessa, and then subdivisionally to Donetsk region. 1st division to Mariupol, 2nd division to Avdiivka near Donetsk, 3rd division to Luhansk. division from Lugansk to Artemovsk for loading. It was withdrawn through Karlo-Libknekhtovsk (now Soledar), Blagodatnoye, the Praskoveevka village, the Volodarsky mine village, the Yelenovka village, to the Kharkov-Rostov highway, through the suburb of Artemovsk-Stupki and to the Artemovsk-3 station for loading. The video clearly shows the tactical numbers of combat vehicles-2, 321, 322 - 323rd division, 3nd battery, 2st, 1nd and 2rd firing installations. That is, "accused" of shooting down Boeing "gun mount 3 was taken out by a train from Artyomovsk and could not fall into the hands of the militia. The 322rd division was withdrawn to Cherkassy. A gun mount with a tactical number starting with the 3nd Battalion could have fallen into the hands of the militia. Yes, one of them was abandoned in Avdiivka, but according to the representative of the presidential administration of Ukraine Lysenko, it was deactivated, that is, put out of action.

[Murmur 55]

Not schizo, but politics, the debris was still smoking and Russia was already called a criminal. Without trial and without investigation.

[paul3390]

Not a schizo, but politics

Alas, this is not the same thing ..

[spacekitty]

Kurginyan came to Donbass a week before the Boeing disaster and stated on television that Russian civil society had provided the militia with specialists to repair the BUKs seized from Bandera. Who else was there to blame? By the way, let me remind you that Vladimir Vladimirovich made a speech at 4 am (!) On the day of the downing of the Boeing, with condolences and the statement "we will not allow this anymore." It is clear that he spoke at night for "respected partners" overseas. When the Russian plane crashed over Sinai, Putin had to wait 2 weeks for his condolences on this topic.

[spacekitty]

They threw me 12 minuses, but not a single miner bothered to explain what he didn’t like. Kurginyan is no longer a patriot and not a mouthpiece of the Kremlin power, or what? Is he hiring the State Department now? His speech in Donbass about the BUKs available to the DPR militia, available on the network, a week before the downing of the Boeing -Amerovskaya ukro provocation? Putin at 4 am Moscow time did not make excuses to Washington on the official Kremlin broadcast, or what? What's wrong with my words?

[suhorukofal]

I didn't throw anything. I just remembered an anecdote about "In our club they take our word for it." And I will add that the evidence is based not on assumptions, but on the basis of facts.

[boris epstein]

I didn’t give you a minus either, but I prefer to believe Prozorov and the documents he presented, and not Kurginyan. In addition, there was one BUK in Avdeevka, but of the SECOND division, its tactical number began with a two, and the number of the accused BUK-322. And then read my comment above.

[Murmur 55]

Why do they need kilograms? They had one for their eyes, especially since they were in a hurry with the wreckage and there are so many Kosyaks in the investigation that the case was not sewn with white threads, but with ROPES.

[Egoza]

Quote: Murmur 55

Yes, there are so many Kosyakovs in the investigation that the case is not sewn with white threads, but with ROPES.

Now the question will be who will pay compensation to relatives. Ukraine? USA? As many as two times. So they are trying to blame Russia. Again - politics - "Russia is the aggressor"

[tsvetkov1274]

As if the investigation did not come out on Petrov and Bashirov ...
Where were they at the time ????

[Murmur 55]

Oh, okay, this "OWL" with grief, they hit on the GLOBE to pull, in vain perhaps 7 years people receive a salary.

[svoit]

In addition, key witness Vladimir Tsemakh stated that he had never seen a Buk air defense missile system near Snezhny.

That is, he was still issued? Or is this article purely propaganda for suckers?

[poquello]

Quote: svoit

In addition, key witness Vladimir Tsemakh stated that he had never seen a Buk air defense missile system near Snezhny.

That is, he was still issued? Or is this article purely propaganda for suckers?

this is an explanation of the requirement for his extradition for suckers, the possibility of interrogating him always exists

[boris epstein]

DRG ukrov abducted him and took him to the territory of Ukraine and interrogated him there. The interrogation did not give anything for a simple reason: during the shooting down of the Boeing, Tsemakh was in a hospital wounded.

[poquello]

Quote: Boris Epstein

during the downing of the Boeing, Tsemakh was in a hospital wounded.

on the other hand, those who fled to the LDNR confirmed the shooting down of the Boeing with dill

[tralflot1832]

And where are the target designation and illumination stations, Buk has two of them. Otherwise, they are worn from the ROM like a written sack, where the photo is linked to the area.

[poquello]

Quote: tralflot1832

And where are the target designation and illumination stations, Buk has two of them. Otherwise, they are worn from the ROM like a written sack, where the photo is linked to the area.

I already wrote for a long time, there were stations .. but only at the dill, at the Hague tent, the rocket flies by itself, it hits it, you do not need to direct it

[tralflot1832]

Here I am about the same.Books that they are so advanced! Everything is beyond even the alternative in their proofs!

[boris epstein]

Each battery has a Kupol early warning station, but the militia did not have one. The radius of action of the radar of the most firing installation is 20 km.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

like a long time ago there was a Heyland aunt in the Hague tribunal, Karl Delpont, who was thrown out from, and she began to scribble very fascinating memoirs in which the accusations of what she was doing are 180 degrees opposite ... therefore, if this chief prosecutor is someone help to leave ... then we will learn a lot of new diametrically opposite in the investigation

[pytar]

.... Boyan ... the whole world at the moment is struck by the pandemic of stupidity ...

Are you a psychiatrist? If so, don't you think the strange behavior of Ross. side? All these mutually excluded hardenings that she gave all the time? Even if we look only at them, a lot of questions arise!

... if the then militia had Buki available, then the military aviation ceased to exist altogether ... turn on the logic ... if you can do it

Okay! Turning on the logic! Did the militia shoot down Ukrainian planes? Knocked down and then on the rise! In the course of events, the Ukrainian aviation was forced to fly higher and farther from the line of contact! So the militia was selling these planes off the top? On the evening of the same day, they boasted on TV / and Ross TV / that they had shot down a "Ukrainian transport aircraft An-26"! The hour is the same, the place is the same! What else do you want?

[pytar]

.... I am Rhodes from the Ministry of Emergency Situations, so once a year the passage of the PFL was mandatory, and even more so an employee of the GDZS 2 times a year ...

Good, respected profession! But it follows that the opinion you expressed "the whole world is at the moment amazed by the pandemic of stupidity" is not professional, even though you know ... I agree with you about that! With the persuasion that the Russian Federation is also a part of the world ...

The militia ... knocked down only on the echelon of up to 4000 km ... this is a confirmed fact ... there are no higher than this echelon of the armed forces shot down by the militia at the time of 14-16

They shot down higher and higher, and the airborne forces were forced to fly higher and higher! Here the Beech appeared at the service and covered the heights at which they shot down the Boeing! The use of this system turned out to be fatal! A tragic mistake occurred, which unfortunately often happens in war.

..carla delponta also condemned many and clearly off topic ... and when she received it with a stirrer between her legs, then very interesting memoirs appeared

The fact of speculation made by K. Ponte has nothing to do with the case in Donbass. If you inadvertently knocked down a person on the street from a car, what does it matter who, when, something else did or did not do ?!

[Crimean partisan 1974]

[quote] It knocked down higher and higher, / quote] .zh ... no, all the shot down airborne forces lost their sides no higher than 4000 meters .... at the moment, everything looks sad for the air force.
The fact of speculation made by K. Ponte has nothing to do with the case in Donbass ... well, when they give the prosecutor under the garden ... then the truth will come out ... it's 100 percent out of 100

[pytar]

First, Ukrainian fighters flew right over the heads of the people! Then the militia got MANPADS! But MANPADS operate at low altitude. It is logical that the enemy began to leave beyond their reach! Accordingly, the militia needed an air defense system covering altitudes / + radius / range above! It is quite normal, the escalation was going on! So it was with other types of weapons! Here we got the Beech, used it ... but there was a mistake. Denying the obvious does not add respect.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Here we got the Beech, used it ... but there was a mistake. Denying the obvious does not add respect.

....... Bayan ... a simple question for you ..... do you know how to work with an insulating gas mask KIP-8 or "Ural" ?????

[pytar]

Once he worked with standard army gas masks, and later with conventional anti-chemical / protection against herbicides, etc. /, open type.

[APASUS]

Quote: pytar

First, Ukrainian fighters flew right over the heads of the people! Then the militia got MANPADS! But MANPADS operate at low altitude. It is logical that the enemy began to leave beyond their reach!

Just for information. Which Ukrainian Air Force planes are equipped with an aiming system from an altitude of 10 meters?

[pytar]

Dear Vladimir! We are talking normally, in my opinion our dialogue does not go beyond the rules. I look at a few of yours and for some reason they erased my comments, and for some reason someone threw complaints at me!

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

On the evening of the same day, they boasted on TV / and Ross TV / that they had shot down a "Ukrainian transport aircraft An-26"! The hour is the same, the place is the same!

bragged about the 1st transport or about the 2nd transport?

[pytar]

bragged about the 1st transport or about the 2nd transport?

Find video data on youtube. Look for links in messages in the ru-net. The place, the hour, the events coincide. The only difference is that the fragments of the MH17 are on the ground, and not the An-26 transporter.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

bragged about the 1st transport or about the 2nd transport?

Find video data on youtube. Look for links in messages in the ru-net. The place, the hour, the events coincide. The only difference is that the fragments of the MH17 are on the ground, and not the An-26 transporter.

learn to read! a few days before the Boeing, a transport ship with an Ukropsky landing was shot down over the airfield, it is not surprising that the exploded Boeing was mistaken for a damaged Ukropsky transport aircraft, it is surprising that this erroneous joy was included in the few evidence of the Hague tent.
"Mosquitoes bite - it's money."

[pytar]

This was another case, which was filmed and informed in detail by the media. But that from June 17.06.2014, XNUMX, filmed near Tores, identified by geolocation.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

This was another case, which was filmed and informed in detail by the media. But that from June 17.06.2014, XNUMX, filmed near Tores, identified by geolocation.

learn to read!

Quote: poquello

surprisingly, this mistaken joy was included in the few evidence

[pytar]

learn to read!

I learned to read Russian when I was 7-8 years old. It was a long time ago and I strongly doubt that you were there then ... But besides reading, you also need to be able to understand what you read! And to understand, you need to read different sources! And not from one piggy bank, but competitive ones!

[Reviews]

Quote: pytar

There are few people in the world who doubt that the Boeing MH17 was shot down by the militia.

Well, that's it, the question is resolved - "millions of dung flies can't be wrong - shit is delicious."

Minusovchiks let them think well at first ... do the accomplices in crimes want to be true?

Are you a prosecutor to issue such accusations and statements? Not. Well, shut up.

[pytar]

Well, that's it, the question is resolved - "millions of dung flies can't be wrong - shit is delicious."

To consider millions of people as "dung flies" - this is the "argumentation"!

Are you a prosecutor to issue such accusations and statements?

So it was the prosecutor of the Hague court who brought these charges! Send your claims to him!

Well, shut up.

Plugging the opponent, is typical for the style of a certain category of members of the forum! There should be only one point of view, hahaha! If not, will you be a newbie?

[Reviews]

Quote: pytar

To consider millions of people as "dung flies" - this is the "argumentation"!

This is a metaphor. In simple words, "the number of subjects holding an opinion does not make this opinion true."

So it was the prosecutor of the Hague court who brought these charges! Send your claims to him!

I see only you, who is broadcasting this nonsense, which means that he agrees with him and stands on the same level as the slanderers, liars and ukro-Makhtov killers who shot down this plane.

Plugging the opponent, is typical for the style of a certain category of members of the forum! There should be only one point of view, hahaha!

There must be a well-grounded point of view, not "I really want the militias to be guilty."

If not, will you be a newbie?

You have already been poisoned with something long ago. Or maybe the whole ex-NRB.

[VORON538]

He is a resident of a country that, like the rest of Europe, has no opinion of its own and dances to the tune of the United States for credits. Western propaganda has done its job. People no longer want to think. "Look for someone who benefits" is a classic, but for slaves the dollar is not available!

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

Minusovchiks let them think well at first ... do the accomplices in crimes want to be true?

do not carry nonsense, here they threw sacks of arguments for you and not you, not the Hague tent, did not refute them

[pytar]

Quote: poquello

do not carry nonsense, here they threw sacks of arguments for you and not you, not the Hague tent, did not refute them

The question is not the quantity, but the quality of the "arguments". By the way, whoever followed the process knows that practically all of these "arguments" have been refuted. To repeat them for internal consumption in the hope that a lie repeated a thousand times will become true of course possible ...

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

whoever followed the process knows that virtually all of these "arguments" have been refuted.

do not be ridiculous, read at least about the guidance of the Bukov, about the striking elements

Quote: pytar

To repeat them for internal consumption in the hope that a lie repeated a thousand times will become true of course possible ...

this is what you do

[pytar]

don't be funny, read at least about the guidance of the Bukov, about the striking elements

The case materials contain everything, they are open to those who are interested.

this is what you do

And you are busy covering the guilty. It is not a sin to make a mistake, it happens, but harboring criminals is complicity!

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

don't be funny, read at least about the guidance of the Bukov, about the striking elements

The case materials contain everything, they are open to those who are interested.

so take an interest

[rotmistr60]

pytar (Boyan Ivanov)
There are few people in the world who doubt ..

Listen, it's enough to deal with the "whole world", which in your country has shrunk to the NATO member countries. With your posts, you once again confirm that you are not only not an independent country in making decisions, but you are also trying hard to lick those who let you stand next to you.

The trial in The Hague takes place with maximum transparency

Also say that even if there is "irrefutable" evidence.

[pytar]

Listen, it's enough to deal with the "whole world", which in your country has shrunk to the NATO member countries.

Gennady, even in the Russian Federation, the percentage of people who believe that the militia shot down Boeing is growing ... In other posts, I conducted these co-polls in the Russian Federation, I will not repeat them.

With your posts, you once again confirm that you are not only not an independent country in making decisions, but you are also trying hard to lick those who let you stand next to you.

I express my personal opinion, which in the given case coincides with the opinion of the court, but does not coincide with yours.

[Timon2155]

I've been watching you for a long time, Pytar. Sometimes you have very strange logic and no less strange statements. Is there a growing percentage in Russia that thinks that militias have shot down? Did you survey all Russians or only a certain group? Can you ask about the results of the survey? Oh no? Then why and on what basis do you make such statements? Judging by the posts above, your opinion is based solely on the vector of the trial, which for 7 years has not been able to say anything intelligible. This alone makes you think. And the main question is, why was the Boeing sent there? Why is the court ignoring him? Other evidence that does not fit into the version is also ignored and rejected. Where is the logic? My opinion: there would have been intelligible evidence, long ago they would have rolled into dust both the militia and Russia! But this is not! Consequently, the comrades of the judge are lying. The same is true for the Skripals, and about P and B, and so on - the general trend is clear.

[pytar]

I've been watching you for a long time, Pytar.

You have no other occupations, or what?

Is there a growing percentage in Russia that thinks that militias have shot down? Did you survey all Russians or only a certain group? Can you ask about the results of the survey?

I read it in rus-media. In 2014, Levada gave 3%, and in 2016, VTsIOM gave 4%. Among people from 18 to 24 years old, 10% think so. The percentage is small, but quite understandable in view of the imformational presing that falls on the population.

Judging by the posts above, your opinion is based solely on the vector of the trial, which for 7 years has not been able to say anything intelligible.

You are wrong. I initially did not follow the results of the investigation and the publications of the court. I got almost 100% of the information from rus-media. Even then, I had many questions and doubts, in view of the obvious contradictions that they published at all levels! The behavior is similar to when the perpetrator is panicky trying to hide.

And the main question is, why was the Boeing sent there? Why is the court ignoring him? Other evidence that does not fit into the version is also ignored and rejected.

You are mistaken, the court answered this question long ago. Not a single tezza or probability was ignored in the course of the investigation. That is why so much time has passed. Lukashevich in a pre-conference at the OSN answers many questions, including this one. If you are too lazy to delve into the court records / they are open /, you can look for his video on YouTube. By the way, it's interesting, but my comment is here with a link, banned ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xZPhMZWJYo
The process is public! Each meeting is broadcast in detail. If you delete the time and read, you will get answers to all your questions. In truth, there is a huge amount of information, you need to work hard, but you decide for yourself.

My opinion: there would have been intelligible evidence, long ago they would have rolled into dust both the militia and Russia! But this is not! Consequently, the comrades of the judge are lying.

But THIS opinion is really very strange! Ordinary civil cases of a property nature drag on for years, but do you think that the case of the death of 292 people should be clarified and completed in 2-3 months? Huge work has been done, a huge amount of information has been analyzed and systematized, weighty evidence is available! They do not suit you only for one reason - you do not want to accept the truth, because for you it is unsightly! This behavior does not command respect!

[VORON538]

Western propaganda has done its job. Your brains have been completely and irrevocably washed out, because you don't even try to think, but eat all the same Western propaganda about evil Russians and their beeches seasoned by a newbie Well, your delo. When the stomach replaced the brain, like those of pshek and maydanutyh from VNA, this is (deleted by the moderator)! Continue to echo your master, albeit unconsciously. You have already been weaned from thinking.

[pytar]

I'm only Ross. look. Observing it from the outside is very instructive.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

Why was the Boeing sent there?

You are mistaken, the court answered this question long ago.

where is he wrong? Did the court blame the dill for the actions that led to the tragedy, namely, in preserving the route of civil courts over the TVD?

[pytar]

de is he wrong? Did the court blame the dill for the actions that led to the tragedy, namely, in preserving the route of civil courts over the TVD?

Video from the moment the answer to this question. If you want to watch the video from the very beginning, it contains answers to many of the questions.
https://youtu.be/_xZPhMZWJYo?t=858

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

de is he wrong? Did the court blame the dill for the actions that led to the tragedy, namely, in preserving the route of civil courts over the TVD?

Video from the moment the answer to this question.

you somehow bother to answer without a "video", and so - the objections that there is no TVD and the police operation is not sound, since full-scale hostilities were carried out in this area, objections about the inability of the militia to shoot down the sides above a certain ceiling are untenable because combat aircraft flew there according to which they worked to kill, and what anti-aircraft weapons the militia had is intelligence data and assumptions, therefore, the dill had to assume a danger to high-flying civilian aircraft, note

Engineers-enthusiasts led by Kai Michaelson designed and launched a solid-propellant rocket 6 meters long and 21 cm in diameter.The GoFast 2014 rocket, using ammonium perchlorate as fuel, soared into the air to an altitude of 117,64 km above sea level

, therefore, there was a danger that something would fly to the height of the upper echelon.

[pytar]

There is no need for me to repeat 100 times already known information for a long time, just to bring it to you poquello... If you want to know, you will know, you don't want to, well ... your business. By the way, you have refuted one of the main theses of the defense, namely that "the militia did not have an air defense system capable of bringing down Boeing to the height of its flight":

... objections about the inability of the militia to shoot down the sides above a certain ceiling insolvent since combat aircraft flew there on which they worked to defeat ...

So all the same, the militias had a Buk / or a similar system / and could shoot him down!

hence the dill had to assume a danger to high-flying civilian aircraft, note

As already explained to you, according to the current international rules, by that time they were not obliged. And no one had done that in the past 30 years before this incident.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

By the way, you have refuted one of the main theses of the defense, namely that "the militia did not have an air defense system capable of bringing down Boeing to the height of its flight":

you misinterpret the meaning of my text, РјРѕРіР »Ryo to have - does not mean they had, but to provide for such an opportunity was the direct responsibility of those who allowed the Boeing route, because there was a TVD and there was a fight against aviation

Quote: pytar

according to the international rules in force by that time were not obliged.

then the ICAO recommendations then appeared, it is not to blame - but the recommendations appeared

[pytar]

could have - does not mean they had, but to provide for such a possibility was the direct responsibility of those who allowed the Boeing route, because there was a TVD and there was a fight against aviation

That is, you still deny that the militia has Buk, but IKAO, Ukrainian dispatchers, by the way, and the airline itself "should have provided for"? And can the militias, having air defense, should have foreseen that there is a transport corridor above it and it is not necessary to shoot at everything that flies? Why did the dispatcher from Rostov give permission for the overflight, he also did not foresee?

then the ICAO recommendations then appeared, it is not to blame - but the recommendations appeared

Unfortunately, the precedent was even before that, but IKAO changed the rules after this tragedy. So Russia is also a member of the organization! Why didn't she suggest in advance ???

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

still you deny the presence of Buk in the militia

the presence or absence of beech in the militia cannot be a factor determining the closure of the zone. In countering the attacking aircraft, could the militias make a homemade missile or suddenly capture the enemy beetles?

Quote: pytar

And can the militias, having air defense, should have foreseen that there is a transport corridor above it

when you are bombed, will you think of a corridor? did they even know about him?

Quote: pytar

Why did the dispatcher from Rostov give permission to fly

because this did not happen in Rostov

Quote: pytar

IKAO changed the rules after this tragedy.

there were no specific suitable instructions, but no one canceled responsibility for the flight area

[pytar]

the presence or absence of beech in the militia cannot be a factor determining the closure of the zone.

I agree with that. By that time, the absence of clear IKAO rules prohibiting flying over such zones is a serious blunder. None of the participating countries in the event guessed to erect restrictions. The tragedy of MH17 forced everyone to rethink the safety rules.

In countering the attacking aircraft, the militias could make a homemade missile ...?

... "homemade" missile with a radar homing head and shooting down planes for 10 thousand. ??? Here I will not say anything, but I would not break the rules of the site.

... or suddenly capture the enemy's beeches?

... and "suddenly" learns to control the Buk-a, so suddenly and suddenly shoot down the plane by 10 thousand. m. Yes, many things can happen suddenly, but here most likely the suddenness and lack of training of the militia led to this tragedy.

when you are bombed, will you think of a corridor? did they even know about him?

Well, yes ... straight "carpet bombing"! The militiamen dug themselves in tunnels under the jungle and did not know at all what was above them ... Moreover, everyone was so carried away that even Rostov did not know ...

because this did not happen in Rostov

The wind blows because the trees are swaying ... You put the effect before the cause. Rostov did not ban it, because it didn’t happen in Rostov ... But he would have banned it and it wouldn’t have happened!

there were no specific suitable instructions, but no one canceled responsibility for the flight area

And there is. Unfortunately, no country before, in the course of 30 years, this did not limit flights over such zones. Sometimes the evidence becomes obvious, after what a tragedy! Unfortunately!

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

... "homemade" missile with a radar homing head and shooting down planes for 10 thousand. ???

yes, do not drive, in the Second World War no gsn were used, however they tried to shoot down

85-mm anti-aircraft gun mod. 1939 Throwing a projectile of 9,2 kg with an initial speed of 800 m / s, with a maximum reach in height of 10 m and a rate of fire of up to 500 rounds per minute,

Quote: pytar

Well, yes ... straight "carpet bombing"!

can I wish you this?

Quote: pytar

You put the effect before the cause. Rostov did not ban it, because it didn’t happen in Rostov.

not so, it would have happened in Rostov - they would have asked from Rostov

[pytar]

yes, do not drive, in the Second World War no gsn were used, however they tried to shoot down

There is even a curious case of an aircraft being shot down with a single rifle bullets. But this does not in any way negate the fact that MH17 was shot down from the Buk missile. The fact was acknowledged by the parties to the process, like Almaz-Antey. So you do not drive stories from the Second World War.

not so, it would have happened in Rostov - they would have asked from Rostov

What happened happened. The alternative history could have been different if only Boeing had been refused from Rostov along that corridor. There is no need to accuse others of what they could have done in Rostov. We could, but did not.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

But this does not in any way negate the fact that MH17 was shot down from the Buk missile.

)))))))))))))

Quote: poquello

In countering the attacking aircraft, could the militias make a homemade missile or suddenly capture the enemy beetles?

could or could not?

[pytar]

poquello: somewhere else galloped off?

The question is rather for you.

poquello: in the Second World War .... however, they tried to shoot down an 85-mm anti-aircraft gun mod. 1939 Throwing a projectile of 9,2 kg with an initial speed of 800 m / s, with a maximum reach in height of 10 m and a rate of fire of up to 500 rounds per minute,

Farther...

poquello: ... could the militia make a homemade rocket or suddenly capture the enemy beeches?

poquello: could or could not?

If they could, they would. Therefore, they could not.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

If they could, they would.

expert, such is the court

[pytar]

expert, such is the court

I see you've run out of arguments.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

expert, such is the court

I see you've run out of arguments.

arguments against inadequacy are useless, it is obvious

[pytar]

arguments against inadequacy are useless, it is obvious

Just as it is obvious that when some have no arguments, they judge opponents to be inadequate.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

arguments against inadequacy are useless, it is obvious

Just as it is obvious that when some have no arguments, they judge opponents to be inadequate.

which was required to be proved, I did not write "the arguments are over",

Quote: pytar

If they could, they would. Therefore, they could not.

therefore, the weapon cannot shoot because it does not shoot at the given moment - this is nonsense, there is nothing to talk about.

[pytar]

I didn’t write "the arguments are over",

They did not write, but you ran out of them. And you have proven that:

Just as it is obvious that when some have no arguments, they judge opponents to be inadequate.

Congratulations!

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

They did not write, but you ran out of them

Quote: poquello

therefore, the weapon cannot shoot because it does not shoot at the given moment - this is nonsense, there is nothing to talk about.

[Timon2155]

You are a regular here in the comments, the huge flag is hard to miss. To study any question in the media is the height of stupidity: they write anything. The Dutch court is the same: they say and sew into the case only facts that are convenient for them (and not quite facts, either)! And even then, sometimes, they make such mistakes, substitute themselves. The whole problem is that their conclusions are at odds with common sense and logic. I can see it clearly, you don’t see it. For you, the word court is law, for me there are options: they can lie in three boxes. Why do you so blindly believe this judgment seat? Apparently, your country has long been bent. And yes, the trail from the BUK, especially when working at an altitude of 11 km, is visible for many kilometers for long minutes - so dozens / hundreds of people would be photographed on their phones! Where is the photo / video? Are the batteries empty? Simple question-answer no.

[pytar]

You are a regular here in the comments,

And let's not go over to personalities! I do not write what I think you are!

the huge flag is hard to miss

Most members of the forum, especially those who have been on the site for a long time, have badges, avatars. The sizes are the same. Someone has a picture, someone has a flag. I've been here since 2013, so it's okay. In my library there are still 40-year-old Soviet military-technical journals, whose successor, as it were, is the VO website. In short, I put a flag on the country, so as not to find fault like "learn to write correctly in Russian".

To study any question in the media is the height of stupidity: they write anything.

The process is public, the meetings are held in the open, those who are interested can easily use the minutes and video recordings of the meetings, where absolutely everything is there.

The Dutch court is the same: they say and sew into the case only facts that are convenient for them (and not quite facts, either)!

The court considered all known facts, all versions, all evidence! That is why the process continues for so long.

And even then, sometimes, they make such mistakes, substitute themselves. The whole problem is that their conclusions are at odds with common sense and logic.

In your place, I would first look through the list of mutually contradictory versions put forward since the time of Russia. side. This is something transcendent!

For you, the word court is law, for me there are options: they can lie in three boxes. Why do you so blindly believe this judgment seat, apparently

I have worked as an engineer for decades. an expert in the courts. I'm only interested in facts! And "believe" is for those who perceive reality on a wave of emotions.
Doesn't this court suit? And why did the Russian Federation / is the only member of the Security Council countries / blocked in 2014 proposals for holding the case of the UN International Court of Justice?

Your country has long been caved in.

Let's say the country is here? Mantras allegedly - my allegedly "bent", and yours "gets up from his knees" ?! I, and everyone else here, express only my personal opinion! The official opinion of the country is given out by the authorities!

And yes, the trail from the BUK, especially when working at an altitude of 11 km, is visible for many kilometers for long minutes - so dozens / hundreds of people would be photographed on their phones! Where is the photo / video? Are the batteries empty? Simple question-answer no.

It's funny when a person "judges" without bothering to get acquainted with the materials on the case. True, they are very bulky, not everyone will strengthen.

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

It's funny when a person "judges" without bothering to get acquainted with the materials on the case. True, they are very bulky, not everyone will strengthen.

it feels like you have mastered, so demonstrate, enlighten the answer to a specific question

Quote: Timon2155

the trail from the BUK, especially when working at an altitude of 11 km, is visible for many kilometers for long minutes - dozens / hundreds of people would have photographed this on their phones! Where is the photo / video?

[Liam]

Quote: poquello

the trail from the BUK, especially when working at an altitude of 11 km, is visible for many kilometers for long minutes - dozens / hundreds of people would have photographed this on their phones! Where is the photo / video?

Would you like to ask first what the weather was like that day?

[poquello]

Quote: Liam

Quote: poquello

the trail from the BUK, especially when working at an altitude of 11 km, is visible for many kilometers for long minutes - dozens / hundreds of people would have photographed this on their phones! Where is the photo / video?

Would you like to ask first what the weather was like that day?

this is not my question, no less - what was the problem of bad weather? and there were "photos / videos"?

[Liam]

Quote: poquello

what was the problem of bad weather?

The fact is that if there are clouds, it is rather difficult to see in them

Quote: poquello

the trail from the BUK, especially when working at an altitude of 11 km, is visible for many kilometers for long minutes

This trail can only be seen before the rocket enters the clouds.
And this is cloudy that day. Red dot is the place of disaster

[poquello]

Quote: Liam

This trail can only be seen before the rocket enters the clouds.
And this is cloudy that day. Red dot is the place of disaster

As I understand it, on a decent territory, on this day there are no photos "from below"? should be, from above is not informative

[Liam]

Quote: poquello

As I understand it, on a decent territory, on this day there are no photos "from below"?

You are surprisingly ill-informed. There are thousands of these videos and photos.

[poquello]

Quote: Liam

You are surprisingly ill-informed

so I was not interested, now it became interesting, I asked, thanks

[Liam]

By the way, photos of the rocket smoke trail at the initial stage of the trajectory also exist and were transferred to the Dutch. Together with the original camera and flash drive. The examination confirmed that the photo was taken exactly there and then.

[Timon2155]

Just one photo? Are you seriously? Densely populated area, everyone has a sotik with a camera, the visibility is amazing, there is almost no cloudiness! And on the way out, zip, one photo with the already scattering trail from the rocket. I do not believe in such "proof".

[Liam]

How much do you need? 1000?
The visibility is not amazing, but better than at the place of the crash of the aircraft, because the distance between the launch site and the aircraft is about 35 km. And the cloudiness, as can be seen on the satellite image, was not uniform everywhere.

[Timon2155]

There should be a lot (dozens exactly) from different angles and different degrees of dispersion of smoke from the rocket.

[Liam]

Is this a reason that you so want or because there is nothing special to object?

[Timon2155]

This is because I am including logic. Objection in what? What do I see specifically? One photograph of an almost scattered smoke trail in a densely populated area with at least a couple of tens of thousands of inhabitants. And I see your answer, impudently assertive. I turn on my logic and it sends you far. You don't have to prove anything further, everything is clear to me.

[poquello]

Quote: Liam

.Photo of the smoky trail of the rocket at the initial stage of the trajectory

and where is the above-described cloudiness?

[Timon2155]

And this is Mr. Liam lying out of place. Don't you get it yet? Either cloudy and no trace, they say, is not visible, then he sends one photo with the clearest weather and offers to take his word for it. Like, do not believe, refute! And it is important to mention that, they say, the camera and the flash drive were transferred to the Dutch! Transmitted or not, we will not know, it is secret, it is impossible to show it to other experts, they will suddenly figure it out)))

[poquello]

Quote: Timon2155

the camera and the flash drive were handed over to the Dutch! Transmitted or not, we will not know

transferred, this photo appears on the "truthful" site belingket, and was filmed by a hard-core Bandera, the people have questions about this photo, but nunafig to dig into this

[Liam]

Liam
Today, 16: 11

-1
How much do you need? 1000?
The visibility is not amazing, but better than at the place of the crash of the aircraft, because the distance between the launch site and the aircraft is about 35 km. And the cloudiness, as can be seen on the satellite image, was not uniform everywhere.

[poquello]

Quote: Liam

Visibility is not amazing, but better than at the place where the plane crashed, because the distance between the launch site and the plane is about 35 km.

then it turns out on the cola

Quote: Timon2155

There must be a lot

[Timon2155]

You yourself wrote above, they say, you can't see the trail from the rocket - the weather, they say, was bad. And then you lay out the supposed trail against the background of ideal weather! Where is the logic!? In short, everything is clear with you, as well as with Pytar. The same balabolic worthless.

[Liam]

Quote: Timon2155

AND? It was cloudy, but not to the ground, after all. The trail is quite visible! Or was there no one within a radius of 10 km? I don’t believe in such coincidences!

There are such photos, I just threw them off to a previous friend.

[pytar]

it feels like you have mastered, so demonstrate, enlighten the answer to a specific question

You Liam answered. And also Thorvlobnor IV at the end of the posts. By the way, two witnesses by the defense allegedly saw the launch of the Buk-a trail from Ambrozievka, that is, from the zone under the control of Ukraine. But as it turned out, the radius of the Buk is less ...

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

Liam answered you.

)))))))))))

Quote: poquello

this photo appears on the "true" website Belingket, and was filmed by a hard-core Bandera member,

Quote: pytar

the trail of Buk from Ambrozievka, that is, from the zone under the control of Ukraine. But as it turned out, the radius of the Buk is less ...

much less?

[pytar]

much less?

What's the difference 5 km. or 500 m., if it doesn't get there?

[poquello]

Quote: pytar

much less?

What's the difference 5 km. or 500 m., if it doesn't get there?

Indeed, it turns out that the Hague tent does not reach that the beech can not only shoot but also drive
)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[pytar]

Indeed, it turns out that the Hague tent does not reach that the beech can not only shoot but also drive

We are talking about the launch site, the trail of which was allegedly seen by children of 2 witnesses by the defense. So the speed of movement of the installation itself, nothing to do with.

[pytar]

And what, the "regular" is already an insult and a demeanor? Have you been down there for an hour the norms of ethics?

I don't mind being forever! But for some reason, if I call someone of you that, they ban me.

I smiled about the flag, I have nothing against it, it is noticeable, it's a fact, it's hard to miss.

I am glad that this fact was noticed. There are those who mow down on other people's flags. I'm under my nationality.

The Russian Federation blocked it, because it perfectly understood what the UN is (the bedding of the West).

The UN does not suit, the Dutch court does not suit, but everything does not suit you! They say that if the world seems crooked to someone, the problem is not in the world ...

Then you frankly flood! It can be seen from the lack of arguments on the topic.

Your country has been bent too. Refused to please the West from the gas pipe (that is, from money). ... that the opinion of the Bulgarians and you in particular does not interest anyone. Your people are a traitor throughout history ... And we have always felt sorry for you ... We fought against us many times, you constantly come with mean things, it would be strange if you were with us now ...

Farther...

Your media is pouring water on the Western mill, promoting a version that is beneficial to the West in all matters: hailey like. It has nothing to do with truth.

You absolutely do not have the slightest idea what our media write. They exhibit each of the theses. Publications supporting the hardening of rus-media, we have a bulk! We do not have a state monopoly on the media. There are only 2 state media and they are led by parliament, where there is also intense political competition.

For a specialist, just look at the holes from the projectiles. As a former court expert, you were not embarrassed by this?

Here it is explained in popular language. As an expert / not yet a former /, I can confirm!
On May 26, 2021, the wreckage of MH17 confirmed the correctness of the Almaz-Antey - the rocket flew from the direction of Snezhnoye
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3qXVu2YPwk&list=PLZAiCLcQB2hjB2C9DFKyeHu00KeHoJqwM&index=4

Why are there zero questions to the Ukrainian side? Where is the dispatcher? Why was the route of this particular side changed that day?

In the materials of the court, there are answers to all your and other questions. The fact that you do not know them is your problem. Here it is explained about the route. It was changed locally at the request of the Rostov dispatcher.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xZPhMZWJYo&t=872s
As for the main track changes, they are always coordinated multilaterally! There was no Russian. nor from the Ukrainian side of such proposals.

Learned nothing new, all Eastern Europe is already traitors

If a person does not want or is not able to perceive new information, he remains in captivity of the simplistic, manipulative cliché, which propaganda "obligingly" presents to him.

[Timon2155]

The whole problem with these "international" organizations is that they are in the West. Not in China, not in India, not in the Russian Federation, but in the West. Hence the political bias. These organizations work not only against the Russian Federation, but also against other non-Western countries. List or do you know yourself? But I understood: for you, the West = the whole world. You simply forget about the rest of the world. On other issues, you are on the other side, you have your own truth. You at least piss in the eyes, everything is God's dew. It was not in vain that I brought the "flood" as you say: history repeats itself, in the same way the relationship of the two systems repeats itself. Now your people and government have taken the side of evil, as before the Second World War, for example. We were also "crooked" for you, and you went with "enlightened Europe" on a campaign against the "barbarians". Then, in 45, they took pity on you and forgot your business on Hitler's side. Now, in many issues, the policy of your country is being repeated, as then, you zealously prove the correctness of the biased court. Here, not only Boeing, look wider. This is a whole plan of action against us, Boeing is just an episode. It's a shame you can't look wide and see the entire front.

[pytar]

The whole problem with these "international" organizations is that they are in the West. Not in China, not in India, not in the Russian Federation, but in the West. Hence the political bias.

What's the difference? They are international! Here is the Russian Federation, China have the right to veto the UN Security Council! And you have a judge in the international court!

These organizations work not only against the Russian Federation, but also against other non-Western countries.

Doesn't suit the UN? So get out of it! Once upon a time another disgruntled one left the League of the Nations! Sitting in the UN and other international organizations, you recognize their legitimacy!

On other issues, you are on the other side, you have your own truth. You at least piss in the eyes, everything is God's dew.

I take a close look at the case materials. There is no other truth, it just does not suit you! It hurts your eyes, but no ... do not admit the obvious facts! Therefore, your last judgment applies more to you.

It was not in vain that I brought the "flood" as you say: history repeats itself, in the same way the relationship of the two systems repeats itself.

There are no two systems. RF is a capitalist state, like most others. National wealth is in the hands of the oligarchy.

Now your people and government have taken the side of evil, as before the Second World War, for example. We were also "crooked" for you, and you went with "enlightened Europe" on a campaign against the "barbarians". Then, in 45, they took pity on you and forgot your business on Hitler's side. Now on many issues the policy of your country is being repeated ...

I can, without any problems, smash all your hardenings line by line into chippings! But it's not worth it, because I don't want to flood like you. It is permissible for you, but I have already been banned several times for responding to provocations.

Here, not only Boeing, look wider. This is a whole plan of action against us, Boeing is just an episode. It's a shame you can't look wide and see the entire front.

Maybe so, but there is a fact that you stubbornly do not admit - a tragic mistake, shooting down the militia of the Gradansky side. You should think about it - Strong is not afraid of the truth! Everything secret sooner or later becomes apparent! Truth is always preferable to lies.

[Timon2155]

Wait and see. I'm too lazy to try to prove something to you, time will put everything in its place. So far, none of the episodes I have listed has been proven by the same court in the Netherlands. You are already running ahead and accuse us of everything, although there is not even a court decision yet, everything is already clear for you, hiley like. It's the same with the Skripals. Nothing has been proven, but there are already sanctions! So where is the truth? And you are here with your eyes. The whole world froze in anticipation of your "valuable" opinion))))) The right of veto in the UN to remind as it turned out from the Russian Federation? So sit up straight, fascist nedobitki (this is not an insult, facts cannot be insulted). Pray further on Brussels, Netherlands, USA. You write: "The strong are not afraid of the truth, the secret will be revealed," and so on. So history shows who is on the side of the truth and who is shaking a test tube at the UN with washing powder! You are on the side of the test tube and all those countries that destroyed Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. You are on the side of thieves who steal oil from the same Iraq and Syria. And they banned you rightfully for all the nonsense that you are talking about. It's time to throw you out of here in general as a provocateur and agent of the West, carrying and whitewashing lies.

[pytar]

We will wait and see .... So far, not a single episode of those listed by me has been proven by the same court in the Netherlands.

For the extreme mayor, almost all of these issues have been clarified in full. So, yeah ... wait and see.

The whole world froze in anticipation of your "valuable" opinion)))))

And I thought you and I were engaged in polemics here. Well, if so, then your opinion will acquire "worldwide publicity."

Remind the veto of the UN as it turned out in the Russian Federation?

Let me remind you! RF is the legal successor of the USSR. She acquired the veto right at the UN on that basis.

So sit up straight, fascist nedobitki.

The militia made a tragic mistake, shot down a civilian board! But according to your "fascist nedobitki" guilty!

Pray further on Brussels, Netherlands, USA.

I don't know to whom you are praying, I only pray to God and I have no other idols - the first commandment of God.

You write: "The strong are not afraid of the truth, the secret will be revealed," and so on.

And there is!

... history shows who is on the side of the truth and who is shaking a test tube at the UN with washing powder! You are on the side of the test tube.

Roles change. Someone is lying about test tubes, someone is about something else ... There is no difference - liars are liars. I'm on the side of the truth!

And they banned you rightfully for all the nonsense that you are talking about. It's time to throw you out of here in general as a provocateur and agent of the West, carrying and whitewashing lies.

Double standards! Classics in the genre! You know, they will throw it out, it will become neither warmer nor colder. Who is afraid of a different opinion and shuts up opponents? Who is wrong!

[Timon2155]

All of your answers are very clever. You think that you are on the side of the truth, but you yourself do not know why. Bring unshakable faith in the court, and you yourself write that, they say, it has already been clarified without sentences, and so on. Changing shoes on the fly))) The Russian Federation got the veto from the USSR, and where did the USSR get it from? Are you deliberately holding back? Do you think Russia is a different country? No, she is the legal successor of the USSR, she repaid everyone's debts, consider that everyone has recognized this. What can you say about the USSR / RF? When did she lie? Robbed? Attacked by war? Killed 27 million lives? And old Europe and the USA have done this many times. So much for the story!

[pytar]

All of your answers are very clever.

It's not about "dexterity", but the fact that I write logical, understandable, obvious things!

You think that you are on the side of the truth ...

I try. I think it's more correct in life! It makes no difference whose side my sympathies are on. It's harder to live like that, but it's calmer on the Soul.

Bring unshakable faith in the court, and you yourself write that, they say, it has already been clarified without sentences, etc.

The court operates on a competitive basis. This gives a certain guarantee that it will be fair. All my judgments are preliminary in nature, based on the facts that are known. Of course, we must wait for the final decision, with that I agree.

The Russian Federation got the veto from the USSR, and where did the USSR get it from? Are you deliberately holding back?

You asked about the Russian Federation, not about the USSR! What question was asked, such an answer was received! Would have written about the USSR, would have answered accordingly!

What can you say about the USSR / RF? When did she lie? Robbed? Attacked by war? Killed 27 million lives? ... And old Europe and the United States did this many times. So much for the story!

If I write specifically, they will immediately be banned. I have experience. Listen, every country has skeletons in their wardrobe. The story is ambiguous, everyone has feats and falls. It's the same with people. It's not worth idolizing history, well, except to raise patriotism within the country.

[Timon2155]

I will stay with my opinion. We see the world differently. There is no purpose to convince you, I was convinced only of your hypocrisy and lies - that's enough for me. And your country is called the bedding of the West, I think, for a reason)))

[pytar]

I will stay with my opinion.

This is your national mentality. I have known for a long time.

We see the world differently.

That is not the question. Here the matter is concrete, the facts are obvious, like 2 + 2 = 4! You insist that 2 + 2 = 5, explaining that "we see the world differently"! What does the vision have to do with it ?!

There is no purpose to convince you, I was convinced only of your hypocrisy and lies - that's enough for me.

I am for the difference from you, not a dogmatist. It is quite possible to convince me, but not as you try, telling fairy tales! This is stupid and won't go anywhere! The weakness of your tezzah is visible, and by the way you switch to personality, you start to be rude!

And your country is called the bedding of the West, I think, for a reason)))

Everything is much simpler - not having anything good to say about yourself, you start talking badly about others using propaganda cliches. Elementary.

[Timon2155]

Time will pass, you will understand. No, history shows that your people never understand anything. And the mentality of my people is to be firm, not to yield to anyone and to fight for the truth! History shows that we are right! And your people fought on the side of fascism, involved in the death of 27 million of our people. Do you think we forgot? No, this has not been forgotten for centuries. You haven’t paid for it yet, you have applied on time, have already laid down under us, avoided reckoning. Your national mentality is to be litter. Facts mountain. You behave in the same way today - harm us for the sake of the owner. Of the latter, they were left without a pipe. Here and sit, begging for gas now from the Turks. And you still have the audacity and ambition to babble something to me about the mentality of my people! The mistake of my people-spared you and people like you. And it was necessary to call to account! You will never appreciate the good, and we saved you from the Turks in due time. And what is the gratitude? A spit in the face! In the same way, you are now spitting on us in the Boeing case. Politicians will figure it out, Ukraine will be found guilty, and you will be left with your 2 + 2 = 5

[pytar]

Time will pass, you will understand.

Timur, I hope you understand! Because it is foolish not to admit the obvious! Each subsequent lie pulls deeper and deeper! This is wrong, this is wrong behavior!

Facts-mountain. Of the latter, they were left without a pipe. Here and sit, begging for gas now from the Turks.

You don't know the facts! You know that distorted picture that is presented to you on TV. I have been working on these projects for almost 7 years. The pipe has been built, it is already working. I was on the admission committee. Until the border with Bulgaria belongs to Gazprom, then Bulgartransgaz.

[Timon2155]

Why is the version about the innocence of the militias and the Russian Federation in the Boeing case considered by you as a lie? Should you teach me with such conclusions? Where is the court decision? So you're lying again !? Once again, don't run ahead of the cart! The politicians will agree, you will remain in a puddle. You are lying about the pipe again, they never said the main one: the south stream pipe was supposed to come out on the territory of Bulgaria, but you refused - the pipe went to Turkey. And then you begged for a diversion from the south stream. This is not the same))) You have lost money for transit.

[pytar]

Why is the version about the innocence of the militia and the Russian Federation in the Boeing case considered by you as a lie?

You are wrong! This version was also considered by the court! All the proposed versions were examined! Watch / read the court records! There is everything you can think of! Therefore, the process is 7 years old! A huge amount of information has been analyzed!

The politicians will agree, you will remain in a puddle.

I admit that the Russian Federation will also agree to pay the promise to relatives. My country is not a participant in the process, I express my personal opinion here!

You're lying about the pipe again ...

I'm not lying, but you are being deceived, and you are repeating what you heard from the TV lie!

... the south stream pipe was supposed to go to the territory of Bulgaria, but you refused - the pipe went to Turkey. And then you begged for a diversion from the south stream. This is not the same))) You lost money for transit.

The topic is not related to the discussed here. For lack of anything to say, you switch to another one about which you believe that you know more! It’s funny to me, when one of you is here to see prices, starts to tell "how it is" on a topic on which I have worked directly for many years!

[Timon2155]

So stay with your opinion, "know-it-all." I have your opinion in parallel. I don't see any reason to continue the discussion, you have your own truth, I have mine. Whose truth is more consistent with the truth, time will tell. While you can brag about a personal inspection of the pipe, work in court, and so on, this is such a way of exaltation))) The role of indisputable authority))) Children are so bragging. But there is one thing - for so many comments of authority and likes, you-the cat cried. What is it for!? Perhaps because of the lies that you are telling people here?

[pytar]

I have your opinion in parallel.

So I didn’t start a dialogue with you!

Timon2155 (Timur) I've been watching you for a long time, Pytar.

"I have been watching for a long time" и "parallel to me" as it does not converge!

I don't see any point in continuing the discussion

I, too!

While you can brag about a personal inspection of the pipe, work in court, etc., this is such a way of exaltation))) The role of indisputable authority)))

It's much easier! There are people who "oddly enough" understand some topics better than you.

But there is one thing - for so many comments of authority and likes, you have a cry. What is it for!?

I have been on the site since 2013. Not because of likes and "titles". Since the distant 60s, he received Soviet military-technical magazines. Until now, my libraries are! VO somehow in that topic.

Perhaps because of the lies that you are telling people here?

In fact, everything is simple with this! You don't have a monopole over the truth!

This fact strongly teases a certain category of members of the forum.

They don't understand that ...


Okay, you're done with the debate. Good luck to you!

[Timon2155]

All the best.

[Termit1309]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

.include logic ... if you can do it

Why logic, and brains are not needed, for those who believe that the United States and half of Europe is the whole world.

[llsamsonll]

What do they decide I don’t understand ?! 100% this is a provocation, in order to make Russia a party to the conflict in Donbass, to bring charges, to impose sanctions, and to achieve recognition of the world community that the conflict in Donbass is not a genocide of its own population, but a full-fledged war with the aggressor country. "Logically" Russia does not need this, which means "Practically" Russia did not do it. But Ukraine had every reason for such a terrorist attack, here the logic is straightforward, to get rich, to bring NATO closer, there they have a very good feeding trough in NATO.

[llsamsonll]

Quote: pytar

Everything you need to keep the militia!

Are they not Ukrainians? Isn't it genocide when a country is destroying its own population?

You probably won't argue that Russia supplied weapons to the militia?

Earlier it was reported that the court did not find evidence confirming the delivery of the Buk air defense system, from which flight MH2014 was shot down over Donbass in 17, from Russia.

Isn't the US supplying weapons to Ukraine, which are destroying their own population? Let us then accuse the United States of incitement to genocide of the people of Ukraine? How do you like that?

[VORON538]

You don’t understand. From the point of view of the Naglo-Saxons, THIS IS ANOTHER!

[pytar]

How do you like that?

What you are writing is a view of the situation of one of the parties to the conflict. For me, the wallpaper is not right! As a result, many people died and MH17 was shot down. Who shot down, the court will say!

[llsamsonll]

He will definitely say, only I doubt that objectively ...

[pytar]

He will definitely say, only I doubt that objectively ...

As I understand it, your "logic" is simple - if the court delivers a verdict, it is "not objective". You are not at all interested in the huge amount of evidence and facts confirming the guilt of the accused. By the way, it's funny how one after another theses are collapsed by the defense, and they are forced to go to all new tricks, refuting their old ones! Here Pulatov testified before the court:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Pz5obZVps
He confirms the authenticity of the telephone interception records! There is everything about Buk and about his route! The evidence is overwhelming! And admitting the fact, what kind of trick does the defense go to? Pulatov says - "Yes, the recordings are genuine, it's really we recorded there, everything is true, but ... we actually didn't have a Buk! We invented it in order to mislead the wiretapping!"
Doesn't this sound like an anegdote to you? As if the police found the criminal with stolen money in his hands, and he - "I did not steal, I found them, and I was definitely going to take them to you in the police"! Ha, ha, ha!

[llsamsonll]

The evidence is overwhelming!

Did the court accept them? Do you believe in the indisputability of the most honest (no) court?

Earlier it was reported that the court did not find evidence confirming the delivery of the Buk air defense system, from which flight MH2014 was shot down over Donbass in 17, from Russia.

What you write is a view of the situation of one of the parties to the conflict.

Which side? There is only one side, citizens of Ukraine. Is Russia recognized as a party to the conflict?
Do not cover up the genocide of the Donbass population on your own land, in your country, under the auspices of outside the United States and NATO allies, with your desire to recognize Russia as a party to the conflict. And this whole situation is reduced only to this goal, I will not repeat myself. Believe only documents? Read the Minsk agreements ... And yes, Russia is definitely supplying weapons to Donbass, but for the purpose of defense! Did the "residents of Donbass" or maybe the "people's militia" start bombing the DPR and LPR? But Ukraine is being "served" including offensive weapons.
PS: The Tu-154 crash over the Black Sea, according to the conclusion of the Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC), the plane was inadvertently shot down by a 5V28 anti-aircraft missile of the S-200V complex launched by the 96th anti-aircraft missile brigade of the Ukrainian air defense. In 2003, Ukraine signed with Russia and Israel intergovernmental agreements on compensation to the relatives of those killed in the plane crash without legal admission of guilt, "without admission of KARL guilt." They did not even acknowledge the fact that was recorded. And there were no "parties to the conflict", there were exercises ...

[pytar]

Did the court accept them? Do you believe in the indisputability of the most honest (no) court?

So take it and read what evidence is accepted! The whole process is public! All in sight! This guarantees that the trial is fair!

Which side? There is only one side, citizens of Ukraine. Is Russia recognized as a party to the conflict?

You are confusing the countries on the matter with the side of the conflict in Donbass. Russia is not a party to the case / the plane is not hers, it did not fall on her, there are no Russian citizens killed /, but participates with experts and documents, since among the accused there are citizens of the Russian Federation. The process is not about Russia's involvement in the conflict in Donbass, so whatever you write next is not the subject of a lawsuit for the downing of MH17.

The Tu-154 crash over the Black Sea ... the plane was inadvertently shot down by an anti-aircraft missile ... a missile brigade of the Ukrainian air defense. ... there were teachings ...

Unfortunately, there are many cases of unintentional shooting down of civilian aircraft. Even during exercises! I wonder why all of you are so stubborn about this opportunity about MH17?
There is nothing strange in essence. Russia denies its interference in the events in Donbass. Recognizing the shootdowns by Boeing militias means recognizing the Russian Federation's interference in the internal affairs of a neighboring country. Although recently representatives of the militia, and of. Ross. individuals increasingly began to openly admit this fact. And rightly so, a bad truth is better than a good lie.

[llsamsonll]

among the accused there are citizens of the Russian Federation

Among the "SUSPECTS".

why are you all so stubbornly rejecting this possibility about MH17?

Who is rejecting? What have I rejected? I clearly wrote and am writing my point of view that the plane was shot down on the territory of Ukraine, by Ukrainian citizens. And I remind you that Russia is not a party to the conflict. And all of you are swarming in the sandbox. Ras you are so "confident" please show me the data of American satellite images ... The United States stated that they exist, only to publish them and even submit them to the court, no one did not ... That is, your thesis does not apply to them

a bad truth is better than a good lie.

BUT! It's different ...

[pytar]

Among the "SUSPECTS".

The note is pertinent! Accepted!

Who is rejecting? What have I rejected? I clearly wrote and am writing my point of view that the plane was shot down on the territory of Ukraine, by Ukrainian citizens.

Okay! Also accepted, with one clarification! 1 of them is a citizen of Ukraine, 3 are citizens of the Russian Federation!

[llsamsonll]

And yes, about "objectivity". An impartial court considers "All the put forward versions of what happened." But the court in The Hague does not think so ...

[pytar]

An impartial court considers "All the put forward versions of what happened." But the court in The Hague does not think so ...

The person who followed the process will not say that ...

[llsamsonll]

Yes? mmm ... But didn't the Hague court in November 20, refuse the defense's petition to consider an alternative version, referring to the fact that if the main version is not confirmed, the suspects will be automatically acquitted? That is, the purpose of this presentation is not a consideration and search for a cause, but a specific task for the accusation?

[pytar]

And did the Hague court not refuse in November 20 the defense petition to consider an alternative version, citing the fact that if the main version is not confirmed, the suspects will be automatically acquitted?

I don’t know exactly what you imagine, refusal! With all that, I will take on confidence this your hardening! As I understand from him - "there will be an excuse if the main version is not confirmed", Yes? As far as I followed the process, all the versions were reviewed, the untenable ones disappeared. Remained, as alone confirmed, the one that is now being examined!

[llsamsonll]

as the only confirmed

The version cannot be considered confirmed until the investigation is completed and a decision is made.

[poputchik]

long live !!!!! the most humane and fair .........

[APASUS]

The problem of the Dutch court is that only one version is being investigated, considered and is being prosecuted. Now the court has decided on itself whether the court system will be proven or framed. I think they will prove it, they will not admit falsification

[Ross xnumx]

The prosecution in the MH17 case has completed the provision of "evidence"

Proof of what? That Russia in no way can be the country - the culprit that shot down Boeing?
And these claims to the alleged supply of air defense systems to the DPR were put forward for what purpose? You never know what the United States supplies to different countries, but I have not heard that someone presented them with an ultimatum.

[cniza]

Earlier it was reported that the court did not find evidence confirming the delivery of the Buk air defense system, from which flight MH2014 was shot down over Donbass in 17, from Russia. In addition, key witness Vladimir Tsemakh stated that he had never seen a Buk air defense missile system near Snezhny. Uncertainty is also brought in by the United States, which refused to provide satellite images from the MH17 crash site. More precisely - those who stated that they have some data, but they cannot be provided for general review due to their secrecy.

I wonder when this circus will end?

[svoit]

Quote: ROSS 42

You never know what the United States supplies to different countries, but I have not heard that someone presented them with an ultimatum.

So it is the same here, the court is only trying to determine the culprits of the shot down, the rest is not within its jurisdiction, these are only the circumstances that led to the event. Most likely, the trial will end with the accusation of unidentified persons.

[Ryaruav]

remember two South Korean Boeings shot down by aircraft of the USSR air defense, the Americans decided to play for this case, I'm just sure that a brazen amersky mug was sitting among the hokhlorachtet

[Dimon-SPG]

A good feeding trough, for 7 years already on this liner crowds of parasites are fattening, and who needs this truth there?

[Yuri Alekseev_3]

How many years has this circus been going on. If there was no proof that the miners did it. The secrecy would have vanished long ago. And today's Ukraine is the brainchild of the United States, and they will cover it to the last. And the Europeans have long been under a hood and will therefore sit quietly and carry out all the orders of the State Department. And for any reason, Ukraine is to blame, this plane should not have been there. They conducted large-scale hostilities there with the use of combat aircraft. And everyone was told that there was just a counter-terrorist operation. And they didn't criminally close the sky.

[Thorvlobnor IV]

Many words, many comments: "your proof is not proof!", "Where are the dispatchers, I am asking you ?!", "you have a missile of the wrong system!", But how do you like this:

Vadim Lukashevich
21 hours
I continue to study the materials of the court hearings in the MH17 case in the Criminal Chamber of the District Court of The Hague, where hearings on the merits began on June 7.
I have been in this topic from the very beginning, for almost 7 years, but what is being voiced now in court reads like a fascinating detective story.
Here is a good example of the awareness and level of evidence / weight of the accusation (as an illustration, I give a map of the alleged route of the Buk's evacuation to Russia from the court case):
... At 22:35 on July 17, 2014 the defendant Kharchenko asks the defendant Dubinsky by phone where he should take the Buk. Dubinsky replies that he needs to be delivered to the border with the Luhansk region.
After that, Kharchenko reports to Dubinsky that he loaded the Buk onto a trawl, and Dubinsky orders him to go to the intersection to Krasny Luch, where he will be met by the “boys from Lugansk”, and Kharchenko dictates to Dubinsky the driver's mobile phone number with the call sign “Leshy”.
Dubinsky asks Kharchenko to call "Leshem" so that he is ready to meet the "Luhansk boys" at Krasny Luch.
"Leshy" receives an order from Kharchenko to take the "Buk" to Krasny Luch to the intersection with the Rostov highway and wait for a call there.
The convoy reached Krasny Luch at about 23:00, while in the cabin of the trawl with the Buk, along with the Leshim, there were two military men ... from the Buk's crew.
Then "Leshem" was ordered to go to Debaltseve, and at the same time he received calls from "DPR Minister of Defense" Girkin (another defendant), Dubinsky and "LPR head" Plotnitsky. They also called a member of the Buk crew, who was with the "Leshim" in the cabin of the trawl.
"Leshy" left "Buk" at Debaltsevo, after which he returned to Snezhnoe, where he learned that flight MH17 had been shot down by "Buk", which he was taking out. And Kharchenko ordered him to throw out the SIM card from his mobile phone.
At 2:00 am on July 18, 2014, "Leshy" turned off the phone. After that, he received unsuccessful calls from "Dolphin" (Russian General Tkachev), Plotnitsky, Girkin (8 times) and Dubinsky (as many as 11 times).
So this "Leshy", which was taking out the "Buk" with three missiles from Snezhnoye to Debaltsevo, with which two of the "Buk" crew were traveling in the trawl cabin ...
here I need to pause ...
THE WITNESS OF THE CHARGE

[pytar]

THE WITNESS OF THE CHARGE

Apparently someone's conscience started talking ...

[boris epstein]

And Debaltsevo at that time was in the hands of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. And to take the BUK through Debaltseve to Russia, a hook 250 km away, look at the map. It is much closer to carry him through Anthracite (LPR). Straight road.