Russia and China presented a project of a joint lunar station

Roskosmos together with the CNSA (Chinese National Space Administration) presented the program for the creation of the Lunar Station. We are talking about the so-called MNLS (International Scientific Lunar Station) roadmap.
A Russian-Chinese lunar base is planned to be created by the mid-2030s. This is what the roadmap is about.

The creation of the lunar station will be carried out in several stages. At the first of them, the lunar surface will be explored to study the selection of the most optimal site. This stage is planned to be completed by 2025. For its implementation, 6 vehicles with research functions and special equipment for monitoring the lunar surface will be involved.

The second stage will be the direct construction of the base with the delivery of modules from Earth. This stage is planned to be implemented in the period from 2026 to 2030 with the participation of the Chinese "Chang'e" and the Russian "Luna-28".

The third stage is the launch of the base into operation.

One of the main modules on the lunar base should be the power one - to ensure the functioning of all objects on its territory, for the life support of those who will directly operate the station on the natural satellite of the Earth. Also, the Russian-Chinese lunar base will include telecommunications, research, technological and laboratory segments. Additionally, it is planned to equip the launch pad and the command post.

According to the latest information, third countries may be involved in the project, but after the construction phase.

Earlier in China, they said that by the beginning of the 2030s, the first Chinese citizen as part of a manned mission would be able to land on the moon.

Comments

[tralflot1832]

That is why Ragozin is so talkative about joint projects with Nasa .. By the way, today three Teikonauts flew to the Chinese orbital station, space is getting cramped.

[Civil]

JIUQYUAN / China /, June 17. / TASS /. The PRC Manned Space Flight Program on Thursday launched the Shenzhou-12 manned spacecraft with three astronauts on board to the Chinese space station under construction. This was reported by a TASS correspondent from the Jiuquan cosmodrome.

And that the journalist is silent? China is not accused of fraud? Well, or on the edge of something about ROS will not blurt out?

The second stage will be the direct construction of the base with the delivery of modules from Earth. This stage is planned to be implemented in the period from 2026 to 2030 with the participation of the Chinese "Chang'e" and the Russian "Luna-28".

Is it okay that Moon-28 is a project to deliver lunar ice to Earth? What does the construction of a lunar station have to do with it?
And yes, I am glad that Vladimir Vladimirovich, in good health, will open the lunar station, so he is at the post until 2036 at least.

[tralflot1832]

With such health, he still will not do that! Your message is normal!

[Civil]

Quote: tralflot1832

With such health, he still will not do that! Your message is normal!

I criticize a little and sometimes Vladimir Vladimirovich - for being too soft towards weak-willed people. Putin is too liberal with the masses.

[military_cat]

According to the latest information, third countries may be involved in the project, but after the construction phase.

Taking into account the previous news -

“Roscosmos State Corporation and the Chinese National Space Administration (CNSA) have invited partners to the International Scientific Lunar Station (ISS) project and expect to receive a response within the framework of the GLEX Global Space Exploration Conference in St. Petersburg. Deputy Director General of the State Corporation for International Cooperation Sergei Savelyev told the Russian news agency TASS. "

- this means that none of the third countries showed interest.

[Fast_mutant]

As already zadolbala this "Road map". What has become of normal speech?

[Letun]

Quote: Civil

Quote: tralflot1832

With such health, he still will not do that! Your message is normal!

I criticize a little and sometimes Vladimir Vladimirovich - for being too soft towards weak-willed people. Putin is too liberal with the masses.

I completely agree. 3,5 Leshke-codpiece is too soft ...

[Sands Careers General]

Personally, I see open trolling on the part of Uncle Vova to "Western partners"
This is politics, it needs subtlety, not the fury of a drunken lumberjack

[Stas157]

... Russian-Chinese lunar base is planned to be created by the mid-2030s

Let the plane be made first! What about the Russian-Chinese CR929, the first flight of which was scheduled no later than 2022? Will we see?

[ultra]

Given that the presence of water will determine the location of the future station.

[Cosm22]

Russia's desire to lean in words on successful Chinese missions is understandable. Hence, such stuffing about some joint "road maps".
With regard to specifically mentioning "Luna-28" - what else is left for the journalist to do? If there is absolutely nothing more to say?
In fact, you are right: the goals and objectives of the Luna-28 mission are completely different, and they have been announced long ago. How sideways this AMC is to drugs - apparently, only the authors of such "news" know.
Such absurdities, by the way, are not isolated. This is already a system. For the sake of interest, you can go to the official website of the NGO. S.A. Lavochkin, there you can find even worse nonsense. We read the data on the "Luna-28": Launch vehicles - launch vehicle "Proton" with RB "Breeze-M". What is it ??? "Proton"! From the East!

[slipped]

Quote: Civil

And that the journalist is silent? China is not accused of fraud?

And that the PRC imposed sanctions against us?

Quote: Civil

Well, or on the edge something about ROS will not blurt out

Everything has already been told about ROSS. And here too.

Quote: Civil

Is it okay that Moon-28 is a project to deliver lunar ice to Earth? What does the construction of a lunar station have to do with it?

Luna-28 landing gear is planned to be unified with LVPK

[knn54]

In the USSR, they built and flew without rollers, and quite successfully.
No matter how "Ruso tourist" turns out on the Chinese lunar base

[Starover_Z]

Quote: knn54

In the USSR, they built and flew without rollers, and quite successfully.
No matter how "Ruso tourist" turns out on the Chinese lunar base

It may well happen. All the secrets of the creation and maintenance of the space station have already been shared with the Americans and Europeans. Now the Chinese will need infa, since they are still newcomers to space. And then we will again remain at the broken trough ...

[Torins]

Very interesting. Will the Russians be included among the first to land in this project?

[Volodin]

Quote: Torins

Very interesting. Will the Russians be included among the first to land in this project?

For the Russians to be included among the first to land, we need to rely only on ourselves. In this regard, no one will give our cosmonauts a place in the first Chinese manned "lunar" spacecraft. This comes from the Chinese lunar exploration program, where, speaking about the first mission, no foreign "partners" are indicated.

[Polite Moose]

Quote: Volodin

In this regard, no one will give our cosmonauts a place in the first Chinese manned "lunar" spacecraft.

That, as they say, and do not go to the grandmother. The Chinese are understandable. We had the first man in space, the n-owls had the first man on the moon. And what about them? They desperately need some grandiose achievement in space. And for this they are ready to invest a lot of money, which, by the way, they have, in a mega project, the economic benefit of which is zero. They need it for the sake of "rallying the nation," "raising national self-awareness," and so on. But what, we have nowhere else to put money? What's useful on the moon? Need space? Let's build our near-earth station.

[Klingon]

They already have it. Not that great, but an achievement. Tycowalkers ride, one on the Moon, the second on Mars. Russia has nothing but a slingshot (drop to the ISS)! , yes, the USSR had the first person, and the first F, and the lunar rover and landing on Venus
But Russia has D'effective managers, talkers, greedy bureaucrats and liberal rabble

[rocket757]

Russia and China presented a project of a joint lunar station

... I just want to say that this is the direction of activity, cooperation, where the backlog of Soviet times, the development of Soviet designers, scientists, still have a VALUE and VALUE!

[cniza]

Good time!

Yes, a lot has not yet been implemented and used to the end ...

[rocket757]

Welcome
There is something valuable in the store as long as there is.
The question is, what will be of value after the present?

[Mityay65]

Quote: rocket757

There is something valuable in the store as long as there is.

I wonder what you mean? Can you specify a specific technology?
IMHO, nothing from Soviet times, and post-Soviet times too, is of no interest.
Nowadays there is a completely different view of radiation safety on the lunar surface and OLO than in Soviet times. Another view of the need for a person to stay there.
Everything will require new developments.

[rocket757]

There are no questions about progress, new technological methods and so on, everything is in business.
Can you argue that everything that was developed earlier is forgotten and will not be used?
The question is not that it used to be just better / worse in relation to what is being created now ...
The question is what is being created now that will allow us to solve problems that have not been solved before.
And so, everything should be used for business, if it is effective and does not matter when it was created.

[Mityay65]

Quote: rocket757

everything that was developed earlier forgotten and will not be used?

It seems that liquid-propellant rocket engines, tanks, armaura and others developed within the lunar program will be useful. All this is already used or tested and is in the archive.
At the first stage, the Soyuz spacecraft may fit, it was developed within the framework of the lunar program of the 60s. Or some kind of its modification, for example, reusable for LEO - OLO flights, without an SA. This is in the archive in blue. It was about her that Rogozin spoke, when for several years the so-called. was going to send tourists on the "Around the Moon" tour.
Variants of reusable fuel tanks will do, they were also developed as part of the Lunar program, although later they were significantly modified for DOS. The technology of automatic docking and, possibly, docking nodes will do.
Well-developed logistic and ballistic solutions for flights to the Moon will do. Maybe.
But all this is just well and soundly designed things, most of which have been tested on DOS and ISS. These are not new technologies, nothing special that the PRC does not have or they have experienced problems with development.

[rocket757]

At one time, a lot of things were developed, then it was completely new ... Now something else is being developed, but how much it is completely different or an improvement to something created, invented earlier, is not a question at all.
IT'S ALL IN THE BUSINESS.

[slipped]

Quote: rocket757

but how much is it completely different or an improvement of the created, invented earlier

The MLNS plans to use both the Soyuz-2.1b missiles in the first phase and the Angara missiles and the future STK in the second phase of the project.

[rocket757]

"Soyuz" was created not even yesterday ... but since then it has passed the natural path of development, modernization ... there is nothing unusual about that.

[cniza]

Quote: rocket757

Welcome
There is something valuable in the store as long as there is.
The question is, what will be of value after the present?

I think there will be quite a few - new materials, new technologies, etc.

[rocket757]

This, of course, changes a lot ... basically this is the path of evolutionary development, this is NORMAL.
There are discoveries, inventions that can change a lot, but such discoveries, revelations that turned a lot, sometimes life, the hopes of many people ... these are extremely rare events.
Probably there used to be too many unbeaten paths that our ancestors entered.
I think even now there are NOT a few such roads, but there are fewer romantics who find them and strive to walk along them ... too much progmatism has become in our life. The period is ...

[cniza]

Quote: rocket757

I think even now there are NOT a few such roads, but there are fewer romantics who find them and strive to walk along them ... too much progmatism has become in our life. The period is ...

There is such a problem, but I think romance will appear, it cannot be otherwise ...

[Mityay65]

Quote: cniza

but I think romantics will appear, it cannot be otherwise ...

And it seems to me, I hope so, that the period of romantics and sporting achievements, such as the notorious "moon race" of the 60s. ended forever.
Harsh realists should come who count money and understand that the era of satisfying their own curiosity for the state. the account is gone forever.
The movement to the moon, and in general into space, should be meaningful and pragmatic.

[cniza]

I think both should be present, without curiosity it is hard to discover something - "man is not fed up with bread alone" ...

[donavi49]

Well, the Chinese flew to the station by the way!

[Reader 2013]

What fuel do the Chinese fly on that the smoke hurts orange

[Mityay65]

AT / NDMH. Like our "Proton"

[Reader 2013]

We, like people on AT / NDMG, have never been launched

[cniza]

Roscosmos together with the CNSA (Chinese National Space Administration) presented the program for the creation of the Lunar Station.

The USA and the West were very "happy" ...

[Basarev]

And what is Russian there? And will our presence there be equal? Will it not turn out that in fact the astronauts will be there only by Chinese grace, with the risk of being expelled at any moment? In general, the project is shit, Russia should not fit into it. Any projects where the Russian is not an all-powerful master should not even be considered.

[donavi49]

But Dmitry Olegovich says that without China, nothing would fly with us now. Dozens (!!!!) of devices were canceled or chained to the ground, because of the amusing sanctions.
And also, they hope to establish cooperation with the United States. Mission to Venus. Supply of electronics even for scientific missions.
[media = https: //youtu.be/u7D-KE4lCZ0]

[Cosm22]

Sometimes it seems that some things reach Dmitry Olegovich with a delay.
But, apparently, he already realized that Russia today does not have the necessary potential for the production of electronic components of the space category.

[Mityay65]

Rogozin said this before the meeting in Geneva. There the logic is, IMHO:
- if you do not want to be friends with us in space, we will be friends in space with the PRC;
- and in order to be friends with us on the ISS and other programs, lift the sanctions, at least on radiation-resistant components, BIS. At the very least, don't stop the EU from selling us transmitters and modems. Otherwise we are crazy.;
- then we will extend cooperation with you on the ISS and postpone cooperation with China.

[slipped]

Quote: donavi49

But Dmitry Olegovich says that without China, nothing would fly with us now.

Lying is bad. Dmitry Olegovich did not say anything about China in this matter.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Basarev

And what is Russian there? And will our presence there be equal? Will it not turn out that in fact the astronauts will be there only by Chinese grace, with the risk of being expelled at any moment? In general, the project is shit, Russia should not fit into it. Any projects where the Russian is not an all-powerful master should not even be considered.

What does "what's Russian" mean?
We own technologies that China cannot independently develop in the near future for any size of material investment. And for him, winning the space race with the United States is a matter of survival. Therefore, we can demand from him these very "any size of material investment", and on our terms.

[Cosm22]

Can you list "technologies that China cannot independently develop" in the space sector?
The ones in which Russia will give 100 points ahead?
Heavy Media Manufacturing Technologies?
Hydrogen engines?
Reusable QCs?
Moon rovers?
Mars rovers?
Unique technologies of automatic docking-undocking in a circumlunar orbit?
Technologies for the delivery of lunar soil to Earth?
Technologies for the construction of national OS?

[slipped]

Quote: Cosm22

Can you list "technologies that China cannot independently develop" in the space sector?

Sure. Nuclear.

[slipped]

Quote: Basarev

And what is Russian there?

Launch vehicles, on-planet and orbital complexes.

Quote: Basarev

And will our presence there be equal?

Absolutely. This is what makes it different from what the Americans are planning to do on the Gateway.

Quote: Basarev

In general, the project is shit, Russia should not fit into it. Any projects where the Russian is not an all-powerful master should not even be considered.

There was a smell of ruin scent.

[aszzz888]

Earlier in China, they said that by the beginning of the 2030s, the first Chinese citizen as part of a manned mission would be able to land on the moon.

And immediately begins to sow rice.

[Mityay65]

The idea of ​​international cooperation with China is correct and timely.
There is a lot of science in space that has no applied or military-applied value, and research is expensive. It is desirable to share this burden. Research of the Moon has no applied value yet. In addition, we are in dire need of radiation-resistant microcircuits, in fact, we cannot create a receiver / transmitter with more or less acceptable characteristics, the PRC will help to solve this problem in part. And we have something to offer for an exchange.
I don't understand the following: an expedition and a base on the Moon requires serious logistics in Earth orbit, on a promising DOS. We need reloading from the transport spacecraft Earth - LEO to the transport spacecraft LEO - a circumlunar orbit. There, astronauts, cargoes, ready-made blocks are transplanted, components of fuel, water and oxygen are pumped over.
Our promising LOS ROSS is supposed to be in a polar orbit with an inclination of 98 degrees. This orbit is the most inconvenient for logistics to LEO and flight to OLO. There are maximum energy losses. Absolute mismatch of plans. The people who plan the ROSS don't know what the people who are planning the base on the moon are doing.

[Cosm22]

People who are planning something in Kazakhstan have seven Fridays a week. To be more precise, there is no concrete vision of the future of Russian cosmonautics at all. Hence the similar inconsistency.
Hence the constant shuffling and throwing from one concept to another, from one sounded version to another.
How many options have been expressed for the STK launch vehicle, reusable stages, reusable spacecraft, promising types of fuel, lunar bases - I have already lost count.
But you have to say something. Dmitry Olegovich, by the way, does it much better than the rest. Apparently, the main specialty received after graduating from Moscow State University helps out great.

[Mityay65]

Quote: Cosm22

Hence the constant shuffling and throwing from one concept to another, from one sounded version to another.

I have some suspicions that the ROSS venture is just an information simulacrum. In view of the particular insanity of the undertaking.
Roskosmos scares the Yankees that it will leave them from the ISS and go to China. And it gives strong arguments into the hands of supporters of cooperation with Roscosmos at NASA.

[slipped]

Quote: Mityai65

I have some suspicions that the ROSS venture is just an information simulacrum. In view of the particular insanity of the undertaking.

There is no "madness" and it really will be done. The documents are submitted for decision to the government. Russia needs its own high-latitude station.

Quote: Mityai65

Roskosmos scares the Yankees that it will leave them from the ISS and go to China. And it gives strong arguments into the hands of supporters of cooperation with Roscosmos at NASA.

After 2024, the ISS will either be closed or outsourced to the Americans.

[Mityay65]

Quote: slipped

Russia needs its own high-latitude station.

The question is related to logistics and flight plan to the Moon.
To organize the flight and supply the lunar base, we need a logistics point at LEO. The polar orbit is the least convenient for energy reasons: when delivering a load of cargo, we lose up to 15% of the PN mass, and when sent to the Moon, we again lose in PN, and in addition, a maneuver will be needed to change the inclination of the trajectory.
It is a coma that the stay on ROSS is limited in time due to radiation.
This means that we will not be able to use ROSS as an assembly and logistics point for flights to the Moon, for flights to high orbits (GSO or Tundra, Lagrange points), we forget about servicing satellites. And this is exactly on the agenda - orbital operations.
How will this be linked to the lunar plans with the PRC?
Does this mean that Roskosmos is still on the idea of ​​creating a superheavy? As for me, this is crazy ...
PS I am not touching upon other questions of the expediency of a polar orbit for DOS, which is the most inconvenient of all the existing ones. I understand that this is decided by other people for reasons known to them alone. I am only interested in the question of linking with the lunar plans.

[slipped]

Quote: Mityai65

The question is related to logistics and flight plan to the Moon.

If there is a tug with YARDU - the question is removed.

Quote: Mityai65

This means that we will not be able to use ROSS as an assembly and logistics point for flights to the Moon, for flights to high orbits (GSO or Tundra, Lagrange points), we forget about servicing satellites. And this is exactly on the agenda - orbital operations.

We can. See above.

Quote: Mityai65

How will this be linked to the lunar plans with the PRC?

There are no longer any "separate lunar plans of the PRC", but there is a joint MLNS.

Quote: Mityai65

Does this mean that Roskosmos is still on the idea of ​​creating a superheavy? As for me, this is crazy ...

Means. There is no "madness" there, STK will be done to a loved one:

[Mityay65]

Quote: slipped

If there is a tug with YARDU - the question is removed.

Ahh ... how are you ... Right off the bat? YARD?
- A spacecraft with a nuclear power plant will be able to be in a near-earth orbit of at least 900 km. It just won't fit DOS;
- for the first time I hear that someone would be planning a spacecraft with a YARDU on the LEO - OLO route. It's just not economical. And for what? This route is for a liquid-propellant engine;
- the flight takes about 2 months, with those engines that are available;
- The spacecraft with the YARDU will be ready in 20 years, not earlier;
- a manned spacecraft with a YARDU is not even planned, as far as I know (and well).

Nevertheless, the question remains, even if a mythical QC with a nuclear power plant appears by the year 30, how to carry out assembly, refueling and logistics operations at ROSS? Do you have to change the crew every 2 weeks?

PS I am sure that the first experimental spacecraft with YARDU will not be earlier than in 20 - 30 years. This is the first pilot to test the operation of a gas-cooled reactor, engines, cooling systems and other cool, but untested technologies.
About super-heavy - no one will give money for it. The Chief, personally, allocates money for such projects. And he is in his right mind and is going to steer until 36. Therefore, we will not have superheavy, and Thank God, the time for superheavy has passed ... For now, then they will arise, but in a different era. They are too expensive, unreliable and of little demand.

[slipped]

Quote: Mityai65

- A spacecraft with a nuclear power plant will be able to be in a near-earth orbit of at least 900 km. It just won't fit DOS;

And he doesn't need to approach. It is enough for his PN to come up.

Quote: Mityai65

- for the first time I hear that someone would be planning a spacecraft with a YARDU on the LEO - OLO route. It's just not economical. And for what? This route is for a liquid-propellant engine;

It's just a tug, not a spaceship.

Quote: Mityai65

- the flight takes about 2 months, with those engines that are available;

It doesn't matter for the delivered cargo.

Quote: Mityai65

- The spacecraft with the YARDU will be ready in 20 years, not earlier;

By 2030. In three years, the production of a flight product will begin. In the same place, everything is interconnected with the third stage of the Vostochny.

Quote: Mityai65

- a manned spacecraft with a YARDU is not even planned, as far as I know (and well).

Piloted is now planned at first on a four-launch scheme. Then to STK.

[voyaka uh]

The Chinese launched a rocket carrying people into their station today.

[Sands Careers General]

Hmm, so what? The Chinese have previously launched taikonauts at their stations))

Will there ever be a Jewish space station? EKS?

[Sands Careers General]

Well, God forbid, at least by the middle of 2030, a base on the moon will turn out.

[Prax1]

90% China and maximum 10% Russia, unfortunately we are now in the backyard