Pills for greed. Frigate Constellation and destroyer Arleigh Burke

117

Thirty years ago, in 1991, the flag was raised on the lead destroyer of the Arleigh Burke series.

It cannot be classified as successful or unsuccessful. For too long it was the only project of this level. The Chinese super destroyer "Nanchang" (Type 55), with a serious look presented as a worthy response, was three decades late. Which translates further controversy into a parody plane.



Other destroyers of independent projects (1155.1, "Daring", "Calcutta") were built on much more modest TTZ. Mainly for financial reasons. Each of them was superior to Burke in some way. But to achieve values ​​close to the maximum in all parameters - such a task was not faced by the designers.

How many destroyers can you build instead of a cruiser?


Save the epithet "balanced" for other occasions. Take common sense. The combination of excellent fighting qualities is achieved thanks to exceptionally high the price tag. For a clear understanding of the situation: in the nominal prices of our time, the construction of each destroyer is one and a half to two times more expensive than the modernization of the nuclear-powered cruiser Nakhimov.

No nuclear reactors and hypersound. Destroyers carry traditional weapons. Which are individually installed on many modern ships and even on the shore. Keyword - individually. Everything here is collected on one ship.

Air defense / missile defense radar complex. A hydroacoustic station enclosed in an 18-meter fairing under the destroyer's keel. Technical intelligence and electronic warfare systems. Artillery and aviation weapons. The main ammunition load, including 90 rocket ammunition with a maximum launch weight of 1,8 tons.

Burk has an unusual power plant according to the concepts of the XXI century. For decades, designers from different countries have been experimenting with gearboxes and diesel engines of economic motion. The possibility of using propulsion electric motors is being studied, trying to select the optimal power plant scheme and to achieve a decrease in fuel consumption in the main modes.

The 31-node Burke is powered by four full-speed gas turbines. Excellent dynamics. Fuel efficiency is not a priority. Approximately 4 tons per hour cruising. But due to its size, there is enough fuel on board for transoceanic crossings. Nobody counted the cost of F-76 distillate (the main fuel for US ships).

As noted above, "Burke" is an immodest project in all respects.

In addition to the main armament, the range of auxiliary equipment includes rigid-hulled inflatable boats, combat lasers, and Drones, and sonar "Kingfisher" to counter mine threats. There is everything you need to inspect ships, patrol, provocation, tracking, reconnaissance and violation of foreign borders. With the ability to hit targets under water, in the depths of the continent and near space.

And it is difficult to identify a situation for which such a destroyer would not be enough.

Ideally - above water the fleet nothing is required except such ships. They will provide a quality solution to all tasks for which corvettes-frigates, all kinds of small missile ships, patrol boats and "communications ships" are used in other countries. A fleet of missile destroyers only. It all comes down to cost.

Main combat ship


The division of the ship composition into ranks and classes is dictated by the limitation of military budgets. Most naval missions do not require 10-ton destroyers with missile defense systems on board.

But overseas have their own laws.


You again, "Donald Cook"?

Patrol in the waters of the Strait of Malacca or prop up a pier in Odessa with $ XNUMX billion destroyers?

The possibility of such a situation was proven in practice about 10 years ago.

When the number of "Destroyers" exceeded fifty units, and the command of the Navy announced plans to take into service dozens of such ships. As of June 2021: 68 in service, 1 - under sea trials, 4 - launched, 3 - laid down, 13 - approved for construction.

Then the public wonders: why are there so many reports of navigational accidents involving US destroyers?

Pills for greed. Frigate Constellation and destroyer Arleigh Burke

With the decommissioning of the last Perry-class frigates in the first half of the 2010s, the missile destroyer with a displacement of 10000 tons became the most massive type of surface ship.

Even at the height of the Cold War, no one had such a number of 1st rank units. Ready to take on all the tasks of smaller ships.

This has not happened in all history fleet.

Timely decision


It remains for us to show sympathy for the "defeated enemy" who was left without their frigates.

Where is the variety of ships' composition? Where is the art of choice? Where, finally, is the romance?

“And there was sunrise and there was sunset; in the sunset an abyss, darkness faster - the frigate was blowing up the waves ... "

For ten years, the "probable enemy" suffered from gross injustice. Finally, overseas, they could not stand it and ordered a series of frigates of the "Constellation" ("Constellation") type for construction. By the name of the head representative of the series.


In the current decade, 10-15 units are planned for construction. Of course, the appearance of frigates will not change the balance of power. But what a move! Return of the lost class of military equipment.

Frigates will be built not instead of, but together with the Berk destroyers of sub-series III. To reduce the number of rank 1 ships under construction, replacing them with frigates - who could suggest such an offensive undertaking?

A number of domestic experts saw a hidden meaning here. The frigates will put an end to the construction of littoral battleships (LCS), clearly not the most successful project in recent years. Premature withdrawal.

Ships of the LCS class are badly needed by the navy, along with frigates and destroyers. This proposal was formalized in the form of a 2016 program that received a resounding name.

Fleet of 355 ships


And this is not a "mosquito fleet". On the pages of the project, the formation of a group of 104 "large surface combatants" (large surface ships) was discussed. Which are usually referred to as cruisers and destroyers.

Among the destroyers, aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines, the column "small surface combatants" (small surface ships), consisting of 52 units, was modestly listed. The smallest of them had a standard displacement of 2500 tons. And the biggest one is more than 5 thousand.

It was supposed to leave 32 littoral ships in the ranks and add 20 frigates to help them.


Tangible progress, if the value "300" is taken as the beginning of the report

Rhetoric in the future tense usually meets with mistrust and ridicule. However, the plan did not imply the construction of a "large fleet" from scratch, but only the preservation of existing forces. With a partial build-up of the ship's composition. Most of the 355 ships have been in service for a long time. As for the new 30-year shipbuilding plan, presented in December 2020, it looks much more epic - 446 ships with a crew and 242 large marine drones by mid-century.

As part of the new plan, the number of small warships should be increased by another 15 units.

The economy must be economical


The frigate is cheaper to build. Further, it is believed that the operational stress coefficient (KOH) of frigates will be higher than that of destroyers due to their more progressive design.

But this is a new project and all the associated costs of its appearance. The desire to get a couple of dozen frigates with the intention of having under a hundred destroyers looks strange.

One can argue about rationality, but seven dozen "Berks" have already been built. And new ones are being built. The destroyers have a unified design and are prepared for operations as part of homogeneous combat groups. Which should make it easier for them to interact and maintain.

Why was another deep sea zone ship project required?

Small units capable of operating where there is no place for large destroyers. Sounds convincing. "Constellation" as much as three meters shorter than "Burke" with a standard displacement of over 5000 tons. The total displacement of the frigate reaches 7000 tons. And the cost is $ 1 billion.


The destroyer "Gonzales" and the Italian frigate "Alpino" of the FREMM class

A new project with an extremely sophisticated design. Small-scale production of individual units. The announced plans for the training of two replacement crews (traditionally "blue" and "gold"). The listed points are unlikely to entail a tangible reduction in operating costs, compared to the ships available in the combat composition.

According to the information about the technical appearance, the frigate will be deprived of 2/3 of the combat qualities of the destroyer at a cost of half the Arleigh Burke.

Technical chapter


The frigates are planned to be built 1500 km from the ocean. Shipyard on the lake. Michigan previously became famous for the construction of littoral ships (LCS). Some time ago it was sold to the Italian company Fincantieri, which adds a European flavor to this story.

Now is the time to discuss the technical details. The language of dry numbers and conclusions based on available information.

Frigate type "Constellation" or FFG-62. Missile frigates are numbered from the first ship of this class, the Brook (FFG-1), built in the mid-60s.

The new FFG-62 is an adaptation of the well-known European project, 18 representatives of which are serving in the navies of four states (France, Italy, Morocco and Egypt).

Frigates of the FREMM type were created with the active use of technologies to reduce the signature. Images of the future US frigate show the opposite trend. On this version, it was decided to abandon the "stealth". The FFG-62 does not have bulwarks in the middle. It has an open upper deck and a tripod mainmast - typical features of ships of the last century.


The Constellation's propulsion system will be similar to Italian frigates. The scheme is designated CODLAG (Combined diesel-electric and Gas). In the economic mode, 4 diesel generators provide energy to two propulsion electric motors. At full speed, a gas turbine of the same type as on the Arleigh Burkes is connected.

It is curious that a variant of the same frigate for the French Navy uses a power plant according to the CODLOG scheme. The only difference of which is the impossibility of the simultaneous use of electric motors and a full-speed turbine.

The advantages of the CODLAG (CODLOG) scheme are fuel efficiency and less acoustic noise at low speed, which is important in anti-submarine search operations.

All this was achieved at the cost of complicating the design and deteriorating speed qualities. For the FFG-62, a value of 26 knots is given.

The main element that determines the importance of modern ships in the far sea zone is their radar system. Here we will focus on the promising AN / SPY-6 radar.

Its feature is modular design. Active phased arrays, like the Lego constructor, can be assembled from a different number of elements, designated RMA (Radar Module Assembly).

The SPY-6 version, which is planned to replace the radars on the old destroyers "Berk", has antennas consisting of 24 modules.


The illustration shows the flagship version of the SPY-6 for Burk Sub-Series III, consisting of 37 RMAs. As part of the radar, four such antennas are used, fixed on the walls of the superstructure.

For frigates "Constellation" (and aircraft carriers under construction), a "light" version of the radar has been proposed: a total of three antennas, each consisting of 9 modules.

If we assume that all modules are identical, and the characteristics of the radar are related to the number of RMAs, then such a radical reduction in modules (27 instead of 148) should noticeably affect the combat capability of the frigates. In short: reducing the detection range, reducing the number of tracked targets and guidance channels weapons.

How many times - accurate data on this will not appear soon.

The rest is a modern multifunctional radar made using AFAR technology. Constellation is likely to receive the best radar system among all representatives of its class. The question is not in its combat qualities, but in the need for such a compromise ship for the US Navy.

FFG-62 is close in size to destroyers, but carries three times less missile ammunition. 32 vertical launchers with a mixed arsenal of Tomahawks and anti-aircraft missiles.

As a consolation measure, in the middle of the frigate, a platform with inclined launchers is provided for launching 16 small anti-ship missiles. Probably only in theory in the picture. In peacetime, American ships sail partially disarmed in order to avoid unnecessary emergency situations.
Artillery weapons were sacrificed without even looking. The "main caliber" of the frigate was the 57-mm automatic gun "Bofors". Quite a strange choice considering the size and purpose of the ship.

The frigate is not a speedboat for chasing drug courier boats. It is being built for operations in the open sea, where all surface targets are the same huge "vessels" with a displacement of hundreds and thousands of tons. Against which the destructive effect of 57-mm shells is absolutely negligible. Even a shot under the bow of an intruder from such a cannon looks unconvincing.

The only justification is close air defense. Despite the low rate of fire, such a gun is capable of fighting even high-speed anti-ship missiles. Due to the ability to open fire on detected missiles from a four times greater distance than traditional small-caliber assault rifles.

Installed in the bow of the "Bofors", coupled with the aft short-range air defense system RIM-116, provide the frigate with a closed circuit of the short-range air defense.

Aircraft weapons have also been cut. There is space on board for only one multipurpose helicopter of the Seahok family and an MQ-8C drone.

As can be understood from the published data, the frigate project is devoid of any unique fighting qualities. Only the destroyer "Berk", deteriorated in all respects.

The only exception was the emergence of a hydroacoustic station with an antenna lowered to different depths. True, at the cost of the complete loss of the sneaky sonar.

Pointless records


A long and colorful story about the enemy's "main warship" and its future satellite, the Constellation frigate, is smoothly coming to an end. And the audience must have made certain conclusions.

There is no more sense in the appearance of these frigates than in the construction of hundreds of destroyers. Redundant "double standard". Once invented by the British for confident superiority over the next strongest fleet.

Leave sinister intent and complex geopolitics behind. The idea of ​​building frigates is unlikely to have any connection with the strengthening of China's naval power. The numbers "don't beat." Everyone knows about the success of the PRC. But where does a couple of dozen second-rank units have to do with it?

The FFG-62 was not chosen to replace large and expensive destroyers on the stocks. And therefore it does not entail noticeable changes in the number of ships' personnel. Domestic logic does not work here.

The emergence of projects like the Constellation is a completely consistent decision for the fleet, in the history of which there were such precedents as Worcester and Alaska.

117 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +30
    19 June 2021 05: 06
    "What are we going to do?" - "We will envy!"
    Glory to the American shipbuilders!
    1. +15
      19 June 2021 06: 17
      Engineers and builders will do any project if the customer is willing to pay for it

      The full price has been paid for the ships and such costs are considered normal. It is necessary - they will still get it from a bottomless wallet. Further, 70 destroyers were not built for the last pennies. The Pentagon is just echoes, a small part of the budget

      Where does the country get such funds. This is the question, whenever the conversation is about the United States.

      It's clear that no one will ever know
      Handicraft explanations about the FRS and the dollar, about trillions of debts for which, for some reason, creditors do not come, all this is useless chatter

      Those who really know how it works in detail and use a fantastic bottomless wallet must have vowed to keep quiet about it.
      1. +38
        19 June 2021 07: 20
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Where does the country get such funds. This is the question, whenever the conversation is about the United States.

        A very strange question. If emotions are removed, the answer is simple.
        Democracy and competition have led to leadership in all areas. The best minds, the best hands, the best people from all over the world are striving for the USA. Leader in all spheres of the USA.
        Every ruble spent contributes a fraction of a cent to the American economy. Through the purchase of software, licenses, machines, equipment, the use of their payment systems, etc.
        The well-being of the USA is due to every visitor to this site. Everyone uses a device made by an American company or having American components, software on these devices from the United States, the Internet was invented by the United States and this site is made in a programming language invented in the United States with a database made in the United States, for the promotion and advertising of the site is paid in the United States.

        The prosperity of the United States is created by you personally, who is reading this commentary.
        1. +11
          19 June 2021 08: 01
          Democracy and competition have led to leadership in all areas.


          Fact. And here's what happened to the welfare of Americans during the pandemic. Because there were people here who kept saying that everything is bad ...
          1. +5
            19 June 2021 08: 30
            In the United States, almost all covid restrictions were lifted a long time ago.

            The economy is booming, stocks are booming, real estate is booming, stock markets are looking great, and industry is booming. Money continues to be poured into ordinary citizens, increasing the purchasing power of the population. tens of thousands of dollars a year, on the one hand it is correct. This money immediately returns to the economy. On the other hand, where did that money come from? Inflation is negligible at the same level as before covid

            I do not have a degree in economics and I have not come across a reasonable explanation for this.

            Let's put it simply - the whole world was cheated again, the campaign will celebrate the day of victory in the third world war (with covid)
            1. +8
              19 June 2021 08: 35
              Quote: Santa Fe
              The economy is booming, stocks are booming, real estate is booming, stock markets are looking great, and industry is booming. Money continues to be poured into ordinary citizens, increasing the purchasing power of the population. tens of thousands of dollars a year, on the one hand it is correct. This money immediately returns to the economy. On the other hand, where did that money come from? Inflation is negligible at the same level as before covid

              ))) You will be surprised but the same thing is happening in Europe, in China too.
              Quote: Santa Fe
              - the whole world was inflated again, the campaign will celebrate the day of victory in the third world war (with covid)
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. -5
              20 June 2021 07: 46
              And here the United States.
              The beneficiaries of all this are completely different people, to whom the United States has an extremely indirect relationship.
              Black nobles, the so-called Black House, are the true masters of the planet.
              The USA is the same colony as the rest of the world.
              Only a little privileged.
              But for the time being, for the time being ...
            4. 0
              25 June 2021 02: 13
              All oil in the world going to foreign markets is sold in US dollars! The dollar is the ONLY reserve currency on the planet! Most of the planet's extra money is stored in US dollars! And accordingly, most international loans are also issued in US dollars! The US stock market is the largest in the world with the highest level of confidence, capable of absorbing almost any amount!
              In such conditions, the United States may not produce anything at all, but there is a huge demand in the world for American dollars, which can be stupidly drawn! What they do, the name is practically unlimited financial resources.
              Inflation is being absorbed by the stock market and foreign consumers of dollars.
              At the same time, the United States is also an economy number 1-2, depending on how you count and a technology leader, and this is still due to the internal structure of society!
          2. +1
            21 June 2021 11: 35
            In the United States, the price of real estate has increased, so the price of net worth of households has also increased. Automatic machine. It has nothing to do with real income. In the United States, there were large "covid" payments - all this will disappear by the end of 2021, let's see what happens in the end. By the way, the price of real estate in the United States has grown largely because some funds began to massively buy real estate, because of this, there was even a deficit in the market. Because of this, the rent of real estate has also increased.
            This does not bode well for the population.

            P.S. By the way, households' debts have grown - and this is real growth.
        2. +1
          19 June 2021 08: 14
          Democracy and competition have led to leadership in all areas

          And also the famous "debt" of the United States in tens of trillions

          For which for some reason not a single creditor came to ask. And every year there are more "creditors" lending money to such an honest and punctual debtor.

          And this has been happening for decades

          Those. this is not a duty in the usual sense, this is something strange

          An endless wallet, no one knows how it works, except for those who use it
          1. +12
            19 June 2021 08: 33
            And every year there are more "creditors" lending money to such an honest and punctual debtor.

            lenders do not lend money if they have doubts about its return.
          2. +6
            19 June 2021 08: 37
            Quote: Santa Fe
            For which for some reason not a single creditor came to ask. And every year there are more "creditors" lending money to such an honest and punctual debtor.

            You are surprisingly illiterate in economic topics, therefore, among other things, you do not understand the meaning of the appearance of these frigates either.
            1. 0
              19 June 2021 08: 52
              Those who run the US economy with the courage and ability to collect such "debt" and "borrow money" over and over again can say this phrase
              You are surprisingly illiterate in economics.

              Anyone who tries to explain their activities within the framework of generally accepted concepts of economics and approved attempts to write off everything to capitalism and the achievements of the democratic system

              It is clear that this is not a debt at all, because the "debtor" is apparently sure that the "creditors" will never come

              And there are no debtors and creditors in the usual sense. There is a built economic model that brings fabulous profits by siphoning and embezzling money from the world's financial flows.
              1. +8
                19 June 2021 09: 00
                Quote: Santa Fe
                Anyone who tries to explain their activities in the framework of generally accepted concepts of economics

                Generally accepted on VO and other similar sites of the Russian Internet. It is no coincidence that local economists feel comfortable in the company of the same advanced moon conspirators, homegrown, God forgive me,historiansAnd also to experts on Jewish-Masonic conspiracies and patriotic geopoliticians.The level of competence is the same for everyone.
                1. -1
                  19 June 2021 09: 20
                  Common on VO and other similar sites

                  No, Adam Smith

                  And the scheme is commodity-money-commodity

                  What competition and capitalism, if the debt is in trillions and no one cares
                  1. +8
                    19 June 2021 09: 24
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    No, Adam Smith

                    Well, at least not Karl Marx or the task force of economists from the Ozero cooperative.
                    You have never even read Adam Smith, let alone studied.
                  2. +1
                    19 June 2021 22: 48
                    Here you can argue for a long time! Just ask how federal loan bonds work!)
              2. +9
                19 June 2021 11: 14
                "It is clear that this is not a debt at all, because the" debtor "is apparently sure that the" creditors "will never come" ///
                ---
                The debtor is the US government.
                Lenders - FRS (analogue of the Central Bank), a group of major US banks.
              3. +1
                19 June 2021 14: 28
                You have one inaccuracy, they are not debtors, they are creditors, and the dollar is a form of loan obligations. So most of the rest of the ball is in debt.
              4. 0
                20 June 2021 02: 03
                Quote: Santa Fe
                Anyone who tries to explain their activities within the framework of generally accepted concepts of economics and approved attempts to write off everything to capitalism and the achievements of the democratic system

                Oleg, in order to understand the secret of the American dollar, the US Federal Reserve and an endless loan for the US government, you need to familiarize yourself with one (extremely little-known) work of one of our compatriots, who wrote it (them) even before the creation of the US Federal Reserve, when only metal money circulated around the world ... It is he who is the author of the "Theory of Absolute Money", thanks to him a grandiose experiment was carried out in Ingushetia with financing and, in general, organizing the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway - in 8 years, without external and internal loans and without devastating the budget. On the contrary, entire industries appeared in the Republic of Ingushetia, the economy leaped upward, the financial market was finally filled with liquidity ... The implementation of this "secret knowledge" was even more grandiose in the USSR. For Stalin knew about her. Then, in 10 years without external loans, a grandiose industrialization was carried out and the USSR from the post-war devastation and economic decline, after the multimillion-dollar losses of the PMA, GV, the multimillion-dollar emigration of the most educated part of the population, rushed into the category of the world's second economy in industrial production ...
                The surname of the author of this theory is Sharapov. Find in the internet "After the victory of the Slavophiles" Sharapov edited by OA Platonov, believe me, it will be interesting for you.
                And yes, this very US Federal Reserve was created less than a year later, after the successful attempt on the life of Sharapov on his estate (sawn bridge pillars). And it was precisely these consequences of his labors that Sharapov feared most of all.
              5. 0
                2 July 2021 22: 51
                Quote: Santa Fe
                It is clear that this is not a debt at all, because the "debtor" is apparently sure that the "creditors" will never come

                They would try not to lend me or demanded to return the debt - if I have a tank in my yard and more than one, and strategic aviation flies over the house - guarding it. Bases in all more or less decent countries are not a joke ...
          3. +12
            19 June 2021 09: 21
            And also the famous "debt" of the United States in tens of trillions


            He's not famous or different. People are shocked by its size, but they do not see that it is barely about a hundred percent of Shchatov's GDP, but it is nothing. Dozens of developed countries live for decades with more debt and nothing. Italy, Spain, Japan, etc.

            Those. this is not a duty in the usual sense, this is something strange


            You are right that this is not a debt, in the usual sense - the American economy, in the eyes of investors it is the most reliable investment. And state securities are a pillar of stability. And at this moment in the world there is no more reliable investment. Nothing weird or supernatural.
            1. 0
              23 July 2021 21: 35
              Quote: Keyser Soze
              And government papers are a pillar of stability

              Money has to work - a key rule of the market.When some salt money in national welfare funds, others print it and buy resources with it.
          4. +5
            19 June 2021 11: 25
            Quote: Santa Fe
            And also the famous "debt" of the United States in tens of trillions

            And also this strange phrase: "a dog is a friend of man" (c)
            The amount of US debt is a measure of the credit of trust. And the United States apparently has a decent one.
            1. -10
              19 June 2021 15: 27
              It is here that there is no "trust". The dollar is more of a political than an economic currency. The dollar is backed not by the power of the US economy, but by the adopted political system with one global leader
          5. +2
            19 June 2021 16: 35
            90% of the US debt is DOMESTIC debt! And MANY countries are happy to invest in US bonds, as the most reliable ones!
          6. 0
            19 June 2021 17: 55
            And every year there are more "creditors" lending money to such an honest and punctual debtor.

            Well, read it for general development .. https://russtrat.ru/analytics/8-iyunya-2021-0010-4537
          7. +1
            20 June 2021 08: 44
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Those. this is not a duty in the usual sense, this is something strange



            Lending something to the United States is one of the foundations of your (the borrowing country) well-being in this financial world. laughing
          8. 0
            20 June 2021 11: 16
            Well, I, for example, their "lender", bought several notes of 10-year-olds. Why should I ask them a debt if I regularly receive payments on them?)
          9. 0
            21 June 2021 14: 35
            Quote: Santa Fe
            An endless wallet, no one knows how it works, except for those who use it

            You need to talk to Alexander Rogers. Or read his articles on the US economy. Everything is very clearly explained there (and yes, he is an economist). https://jpgazeta.ru/members/ulogin_facebook_100002006560879/articles/
        3. +3
          19 June 2021 08: 33
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          A very strange question. If emotions are removed, the answer is simple.
          Democracy and competition have led to leadership in all areas. The best minds, the best hands, the best people from all over the world are striving for the USA. Leader in all spheres of the USA.
          Every ruble spent contributes a fraction of a cent to the American economy. Through the purchase of software, licenses, machines, equipment, the use of their payment systems, etc.
          The well-being of the USA is due to every visitor to this site. Everyone uses a device made by an American company or having American components, software on these devices from the United States, the Internet was invented by the United States and this site is made in a programming language invented in the United States with a database made in the United States, for the promotion and advertising of the site is paid in the United States.
          The prosperity of the United States is created by you personally, who is reading this commentary.

          It's hard to disagree. It may be exaggerated somewhere, but in general, this is probably the way it is. Do not forget about the possibilities of total control of the United States through the software of computers, smartphones - and they are everywhere and everywhere.
        4. -5
          19 June 2021 09: 54
          Democracy for mattress makers is a stupid fairy tale for suckers, both for internal and external use. The USA has been a classic oligarchy for a long time.
          1. +3
            19 June 2021 13: 26
            Democracy for mattress makers is a stupid fairy tale for suckers, both for internal and external use. The USA has been a classic oligarchy for a long time.

            And therefore it is not known until the last moment who will be the president - such is the intensity of the competition there, and the mayors of the cities ignore instructions from above and do as the people who have elected them want, and the law requires, but of course we are still better in this regard - more democratic and oligarchic There are no clans, but this is not the main thing - the main thing is, what place we occupy in the world economy, the well-being of citizens depends on this, and here - where do they care about us. wassat
        5. +2
          19 June 2021 10: 23
          "In 1989, Timothy Berners-Lee, while at CERN, proposed a global hypertext project for the Semantic Web, which became the foundation for the Internet as we know it today." He is an Englishman.
        6. +2
          19 June 2021 11: 48
          A reasonable view of the state of affairs.
          It's rare here
        7. -7
          19 June 2021 15: 24
          Everything is simpler. The states will print as many dollars as they need. And then they will print the same amount. Russia and other countries, which are on the rights of colonies, will take on inflation on this printed money. This is, in short, the mechanism of dominance.
          1. -2
            19 June 2021 22: 47
            With the development of "non-cash" and "plastic", there is no need to even print - you just need to enter the desired number into the computer.
        8. 0
          19 June 2021 18: 38
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          Democracy and competition have led to leadership in all areas.
          Strongly said! Here, only, "democracy" there began with the genocide of the indigenous population and the slave trade.
          With all the pathos on the declaration of rights and freedoms, "only for whites" persisted until the middle of the last century. The United States came out of the "Great Depression" after the Second World War, profiting enormously from it and enslaving, in fact, most of the world. They print their "candy wrappers", thanks to the dollar, becoming the leader and master of world capitalism.

          One can talk for a long time about American "democracy", as well as about "competition", which, under transnational monopolies, is increasingly becoming a fiction. Brains bought from all over the world, with the dullness and obesity of their population. With the most "advanced economists", the United States has the largest public debt, by June last year it was already more than $ 26 trillion, continuing to grow by an average of $ 1 trillion every month.

          The United States around the world unleashes wars, sabotages, in fact creates and sponsors international terrorism. To deceive and plunder the whole world, where grief and blood are one, and super-profits for America, is a "worthy" business.
          Sooner or later, the United States will have to pay for everything, answer for everything.
          The best minds, the best hands, the best people from all over the world are striving for the USA. Leader in all spheres of the USA.


          You have to understand, with such patriotism towards the United States, that a person with a "radio engineering education" made his choice in this long ago ...

          Probably, one has to go through all this, one cannot be further than Russia so generous and trusting. The Anglo-Saxons will teach how to behave correctly, both with the masters of capitalism and their addicted sixes.
          I hope that at the same time we will not learn from them to be scoundrels and hypocrites in politics. The assertion that "politics is a dirty business" was invented by people of the corresponding sample of world thieves and bandits, - dirty politics are made by dirty politicians, no matter what costumes "worth a million" they dress up in.

          As for the fleet, the party renegades would not have betrayed the USSR, having envied the advertising gloss of the West, making a fetish out of it, and we would now have a fleet worthy of a great country, which was the Soviet Union.
      2. +1
        19 June 2021 20: 25
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The full price has been paid for the ships and such costs are considered normal. It is necessary - they will still be buried from a bottomless wallet. Further, 70 destroyers were not built for the last pennies.

        The links to the high price are a little surprising. Such a number of ships is no longer a piece, but mass production. This means reducing the cost at times. It is strange that you did not provide a comparison of the cost of one frigate and the average cost for 70 Arlieberks.
      3. 0
        21 August 2021 14: 06
        It is precisely the reserve status of the dollar and the UST that is guaranteed. But not endlessly, the bubble will burst sometime ...
    2. +4
      19 June 2021 08: 12
      Also, in such cases, I recall this historical phrase attributed to I. V. Stalin.
      Indeed, one can only envy.
    3. -17
      19 June 2021 09: 51
      I see no particular reason for envy. Instead of serial construction, according to a worked-out project, they "reinvent the wheel" at a comparable price. The author is absolutely right - there is no logic at all. The infa has passed - the mattress covers write off 13 ships and a tug, including seven "Ticonderogs". To replace one "tick" by the number of PUs, three such lush rations are needed. Total - 21.
      1. +11
        19 June 2021 12: 27
        Quote: TermNachTER
        The infa has passed - the mattress covers write off 13 ships and a tug, including seven "Ticonderogs".

        Now 5 teak with beams have been decommissioned. All ships with UVP are in service. Naturally, the older ships will soon be 40 years old, soon to be cut. But they are not replaced by frigates, of course, but by the same berks block 3.
        Instead of serial construction, according to the worked out project

        FREMMs of various subtypes have already been built 19 pieces, 30 more have been ordered, in addition to the American ones.
        1. -13
          19 June 2021 13: 27
          I think that the mattress ones will have to be nicely redone according to their system, they don't need gay-European ones. So the project will have to be reworked anyway, the question is - how deep?
  2. +1
    19 June 2021 05: 15
    The story is really colorful. Better to say, even colorful.
    But where is the total?
    1. +23
      19 June 2021 07: 52
      There is a stream of emotions, there is no sense. Conclusions even more so.

      There are no questions for Constellation, the frigate is made from the serial FREMM project, adapted for work in the far sea zone. Its life cycle will cost 2-3 times cheaper than Burke, if necessary, you can use the shipyards of the allies and produce 5-6 such ships per year.
      Soon the first Berks will start cheating, the Ticonderogs have already started. We launched a project to create a new destroyer DDG (X). It is logical to buy new destroyers instead of the old Berks, and not to produce, even though a modernized, but 40-year-old project. But the new destroyer will be more modern, more powerful and more expensive, the production speed will be slower (at first). Accordingly, you need to compensate for this.
      The lion's share of Berkov's tasks does not require such power, especially DDG (X). The frigate will rid the destroyers of them and they will carry out tasks appropriate for them.
      12 Constellation, will replace 12 Berks, and the money will be spent (the entire life cycle) as for 4-6 destroyers or as 2-3 DDG (X). The main thing for the USA will be freeing ships of rank 1 from routine tasks.

      About the gun, 57 mm is more than enough, more precisely, it is more like all modern threats. The first stage is the near air defense zone, self-defense from boats, stopping ships, and destroying other surface objects. Why a larger caliber is not clear to the frigate. Plus, there is a reserve in place and energy for a 150 kW laser.
      1. +3
        19 June 2021 08: 10
        Its life cycle will cost 2-3 times cheaper than Burke, if necessary, you can use the shipyards of the allies and produce 5-6 such ships per year.

        No need to invent anything for the Yankees
        Soon the first Burkes will start cheating

        And they will build new ones in even greater numbers + projects of a promising cruiser and destroyer
        Accordingly, you need to compensate for this.

        They're not going to compensate for anything

        The Yankees have approached the figure of 100 main warships of rank 1, and will maintain this value in the future.

        Against this background, 10-15 frigates - a toy project, the whims of the rich
        About the gun, 57 mm is more than enough, more precisely, it is more like all modern threats.

        We urgently need to inform the designers of Arlie Burke, otherwise they do not know

        And the creators of other destroyers and frigates around the world do not agree with 57 mm
        The frigate will rid the destroyers of them

        10 frigates will not replace 100 destroyers and other rocket ships of the 1st rank, it makes no sense to even talk about it
        1. +7
          19 June 2021 09: 47
          Quote: Santa Fe
          10 frigates will not replace 100 destroyers and other rocket ships of the 1st rank, it makes no sense to even talk about it

          Not 10 but 20. And they do not need to be replaced.

          If we seriously talk about China, then in addition to the monsters of the 55th project, China has fifty diesel-electric submarines and more than a hundred little things 53, 54, 56 projects. There is no need to drive Burke, in each barrel there is a plug for $ 3 billion, but a normal frigate for a billion is more than enough.

          Moreover, the thought "what ship can we buy for a billion dollars?" quite reasonable and timely. A very non-figurative, let's face it, the Americans can buy a ship. I'll tell you more, the question "What can you buy for 500, or even 300 million?" also has a right to exist and even promises pleasant discoveries. Type 31e, Saar-6, Lafayette, Meco-A100 are quite serious machines against the background of the same 56th Chinese project, of which there are 72 corps.
      2. +4
        19 June 2021 08: 19
        FREMM


        By the way, the case is not new in fact. Other contours are in vogue now. We could have taken some other European project with a new building.

        1. +4
          19 June 2021 08: 50
          The Americans were so embarrassed with new projects, from LCS to Ford, that the requirement "there is experience in operating a ship of this type" was actually the main one. Otherwise, they would have joined one of the promising frigates - English or European, for example.
          1. +2
            19 June 2021 09: 05
            The Americans in this project are primarily interested in the financial side of the issue. As many units as possible for as little amount as possible. The tasks that are set for these frigates do not require all the buns that are present on the same Berks. Otherwise, they would be like Berks.
            1. +5
              19 June 2021 09: 33
              We are talking about different things.

              The very idea of ​​getting a frigate - taking into account the fact that with LCS Something went wrong - is obvious. In the magical world of the author, the Americans recognize only rank 1 ships, and the real Americans of EMNIP have three dozen Perry withdrawn from the fleet under Obama. But what to take instead of Perry - why not stir up your project, or get hooked on the British with the Type 26, three dozen of them have already been ordered from the American allies - here the trump card was the already existing project. Type 26 is not yet available, you never know what it can fall off.
              Americans can no longer see brand new ships. They can be understood.
              1. +1
                19 June 2021 09: 49
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                It is in the author's magical world that the Americans recognize only rank 1 ships, and the real Americans of the EMNIP have three dozen Perry withdrawn from the fleet under Obama.

                Let's leave the author aside)
                Reduction of the fleet after the collapse of the USSR. We decided to keep only the destroyers, giving them the functions of both frigates and LCS. Accordingly, they stuffed everything possible and impossible. A small (by American standards) number of ships of the same type. Expensive to manufacture, due to the fact that both the Swiss and the reaper. But cheaper than keeping three different types of ships ...
                While there were no rivals, there were norms. Now an rival has appeared, at least in the future, and it is necessary to increase the number of ships. Since it is impossible to increase the number of super-expensive Berks, they removed unusual tasks from them (coastal PLO and mine action (diocese of LCS) and convoy functions in the DMZ) (diocese of frigates)
                The epic with prices for LCS showed that if you chase new super-advanced projects with excessive characteristics, there will be no savings and, accordingly, an increase in the number of pennants. surprises "
                1. +6
                  19 June 2021 12: 42
                  Quote: Liam
                  Reduction of the fleet after the collapse of the USSR. We decided to keep only the destroyers, giving them the functions of both frigates and LCS.

                  Reasonable, logical and wrong concept.

                  You didn’t pay attention to the fact that Perry not only survived the USSR, but also served to rise from his knees.

                  China.

                  So the Americans just saturate their fleet with frigates, as they always did. 10 years ago, they tried to give the functions of the LCS frigate, but it did not grow together. So we went back to the classic version. Even excessive, in my opinion. Some very budgetary Iver Huitfeldt-class could be enough.
                  1. -1
                    19 June 2021 13: 05
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    served until getting up from their knees.

                    Well, they couldn't write off everything at once. We had to wait until the Burke was built on (including) their replacement. And this is not a matter of one year.
      3. +6
        19 June 2021 10: 19
        I will add if you will. The Americans have just been describing for 5 years why they need frigates. ArlieBerks have become very expensive and valuable because they are all converted to anti-missile capabilities, and only the ammunition load on the ship is worth as half a destroyer. It is simply stupid to risk such ships. Further, the Littorals turned out to be poorly protected in the air defense and they needed a cover ship for joint actions near the coast, where, again, it would be risky to send destroyers. Again, "why only 20" are built when there are 70 destroyers? Because the concept of the US Navy has always demanded small combatants, but from the moment OliverHP was decommissioned, they retained the functions of providing DOMINANCE at sea, and carry out the remaining operations together with a bunch of allied forces (frigates from Canada, Europe, Asia). Now they nevertheless returned to the idea of ​​building small combatants in order to be able, if necessary, to act completely independently - this is declared as against China, where it is not a fact that Asians will fit in to help.
        It is for this that a ship is being built three times weaker than a destroyer.
        And one more addition about the radar - the author somehow condescendingly walked on it, they say it will be much weaker than Arleigh Burke Blсk III, only he did not mention that, SPY-6, will be three times more powerful than SPY-1 and in fact the radar the frigate will be at the level of today's DDG-51. In general, a good boat.
        1. +5
          19 June 2021 12: 37
          Quote: arkadiyssk
          they are all transferred to anti-missile capabilities, and only the ammunition on the ship comes out there, it costs like half of the destroyer

          Yes, this thought is somehow not very visible. The capabilities of the latest versions of Berkov are such that chasing camels with them is simply ridiculous. But dozens of mobile systems capable of shooting down satellites and ICBMs is a serious conversation. But hundreds of millions of dollars just for ammunition from the CM-3, of course.
          1. 0
            19 June 2021 14: 38
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            this thought is somehow not very visible

            As well as the fact that in the North Atlantic theater of operations NATO allies provided their fleets with the functions inherent in frigates / lcs. And now the main theater of operations is the Pacific Ocean. Where there are not so many allies with navies as in Europe. And the Europeans are unlikely to fit in there against China. Therefore, the Americans you need to make your own
    2. +1
      19 June 2021 16: 39
      So this is Katsov! There is no "TOTAL", only a colorful description, there is no sense!
  3. 0
    19 June 2021 05: 41
    Some kind of stream of consciousness ...
    I did not catch the meaning for which the article was written. A kind of somnambulistic enumeration of everything that came to mind on the topic, with an art-house-style ending, they say, think out for yourself.
  4. -7
    19 June 2021 07: 22
    Deafened by the roar of the printing press, they don't hear reasonable arguments.
  5. +6
    19 June 2021 07: 41
    Kaptsov has a good syllable and recognizable, pleasant to read.
    Business dictates the construction of new ships and weapons, arguing this with the intrigues of overseas enemies and threats to democracy. Let's hope that this is just "advertising" rhetoric, they are unlikely to dream of a big war. But the hope that they will tear the navel is long gone
  6. +9
    19 June 2021 08: 17
    By the way, the next, the first Block3 Burke was recently launched.

  7. -14
    19 June 2021 08: 54
    No matter how many Arleigh Burke destroyers were in the US Navy, a nuclear response to the largest cities in America, in the event of a war with Russia, is inevitable.
    And then consider who as he can. Do you want gentlemen-cowboys?
    1. +5
      19 June 2021 10: 17
      And you will also be hit. Do you need him, comrade collective farmer?
    2. +13
      19 June 2021 11: 05
      Well, why count if we have been collecting a lousy frigate for ten years? Only a nuclear cudgel can be wiped off and it remains, since there is nothing more.
    3. +4
      19 June 2021 16: 42
      And of course, the United States will get lost and there will be no retaliation?
  8. 0
    19 June 2021 09: 47
    In my opinion, the very concept of these super destroyers played an echo of the "Gunboat Policy".
  9. +9
    19 June 2021 10: 34
    Kaptsov pleased us with high-quality content in the morning.
    Other destroyers of independent projects (1155.1, "Daring", "Calcutta") were built on much more modest TTZ.

    The only Russian destroyer of project 1155.1 Chabanenko is now rotting with burned-out Ukrainian turbines (for which there are no and will not be spare parts) at 35-SRZ. On Chabanenko, the main problematic issue is the cracks in the case, the result of an oversight or hack during construction. And most likely it is unrealistic to solve it.
    In addition, given how much the 35th plant "ate" on this order, after all, Chabanenko has been "repairing" there since the furry 2014, it can be concluded that such a "repair" is economically inexpedient in the conditions of the north, at a half-killed plant and in such vague terms. , technically, this money can be used to build a corvette.
  10. +6
    19 June 2021 10: 56
    Arleigh Burke has a 30 knot stroke on a 10,5 meter wave, it's amazing seakeeping, what else they need. Or Dynemex won't have enough money?
    1. +1
      20 June 2021 12: 14
      Das ist fantastisch! ))) Unwahrscheinlich! )))
    2. 0
      21 June 2021 18: 53
      Quote: tralflot1832
      Arleigh Burke has a 30 knot stroke on a 10,5 meter wave, it's amazing seakeeping, which they still need.

      Maybe they want a ship in which these figures would be confirmed in practice? smile

      YT has a great video: "DDG-105 takes a nose-dive" from a CVN-74.
      In the background - poor DDG-105 "Dewey" is intensively cosplaying the submarine, diving into the waves with his nose and taking water on the deck right up to the superstructure. On the forward deck, on the CVN-74 "John C. Stennis" deck, people are standing quietly and filming this action. Moreover, judging by the people on the deck, AB practically does not pump.
      1. 0
        21 June 2021 19: 07
        It all depends on the area where it was filmed. In the World Ocean it can be at the same height, different wavelengths. And much depends on the course to the wave. But I'll see. And so at 12 point storm, the combat effectiveness of ships is limited for everyone, you can shoot, but get in?
  11. +6
    19 June 2021 11: 30
    Or they could order such a frigate.
    Competitor Fremm.

    Spanish design
    1. -3
      19 June 2021 16: 52
      The water is so clear, as if transparent.
    2. +1
      19 June 2021 18: 19
      Austal USA offered a trimaran frigate based on the existing LCS Independence-class project. But apparently the Navy did not want to experiment))


  12. +1
    19 June 2021 17: 28
    As I understand it, the Americans are betting on a large series of simplified units. Quantity beats quality. This is the ideology of Oliver X Perry-class frigates.
    1. 0
      19 June 2021 19: 08
      Arlie Burke is not oversimplified
      1. 0
        20 June 2021 12: 22
        When designing and then building destroyers of the "Arleigh Burke" type, the designers of the project tried to implement the rationale for this type put forward by the fleet: to create a ship that has 3/4 of the capabilities of missile cruisers of the "Ticonderoga" type for 2/3 of the price of the latter
        Wiki
        Everything is relative
  13. -1
    19 June 2021 17: 52
    Very easy to read, articles from a new angle give you a look at familiar things.
  14. +2
    19 June 2021 20: 45
    Nobody counted the cost of F-76 distillate (the main fuel for US ships).

    Kaptsov, write better about the armor.

    As you can see, everything is regularly counted, and the F-76 is not the most expensive fuel.
  15. 0
    20 June 2021 01: 37
    quite a consistent decision for the fleet, in the history of which there were such precedents as "Worcester" and "Alaska".


    Well, that's you really. Yes, they also had excesses. But the American navy, on the contrary, is known for a huge number of rational decisions.
    For example:
    Iowa.
    "Essexes".
    Large series of nuclear submarines, destroyers.

    And the same Alaska with Worcester - they would be mistakes if they were the only ships in the fleet. And against the background of such a colossus, you can experiment.
    1. -2
      20 June 2021 05: 11
      Iowa. "

      What is the rationality of Iowa
      1. +5
        20 June 2021 08: 04
        Quote: Santa Fe
        What is the rationality of Iowa

        Even Worcester was a reasonable enough decision, but poorly executed. Plus, at the time of its construction, the fleet has not yet lost the habit of throwing money on not the most necessary, to put it mildly, projects. English Tiger or Baltic KRL with 6 "station wagons were quite a working topic.

        As for Iowa - and Alaska - they are perfectly reasonable ships. Much more reasonable than most of what the Americans have built.

        In a situation of war on maintenance, the Americans were faced with a situation where AB, to lift the aircraft - and this is not three minutes - had to go downwind at a speed of at least 28 knots. Better than 30+. At the same time, the support ships had to go right next to him in order to create a single air defense zone if necessary. The 26-node Dakotas were not particularly suited for this. Old cruisers do not have air defense (by the standards of 44). There are few new CDs, even Clevelands, less than AB. Except Atlant, but Atlanta as an air defense cruiser are unsuccessful.

        So getting a second pair of Iowas and two Alaska in 44 was very helpful. And if you remember that the second Alaska and the fourth Iowa entered service earlier than the fifth Baltimore, then these ships were just incredibly useful.
        1. +1
          20 June 2021 15: 02
          Your concept is not supported by anything at all.

          The main air defense weapon of an aircraft carrier order is the BVP. At the same time, on the decks in constant readiness there is a change of airborne projectiles, which, before the release of the shock wave, rises into the air ahead of time, forming an airborne projectile, reinforced by one and a half to two times. This is the main defense.
          Call sane, a 100 million ship that serves as a part, but only of air defense orders, and only the anti-aircraft part of it will turn the tongue only of the biggest fan of Iowa.
          But that's not all. A bit dry numbers.

          Fight in the Philippine Sea
          The number of battleships in the air defense order of aircraft carriers is 0. There are none at all. All battleships in Li's formation
          Completely dispensed with

          Okinawa is even more interesting:
          Clark's task group
          3 conditionally low-speed SaDak. It turns out their speed is still enough

          Bogan's group
          There are no battleships at all. only the Fletchers and one Santa Fe

          Sherman Group
          2 "slow" Washington. See above.

          Redford Group
          3 Iowa. And there are two Alaskas
          Yeah, they scraped up one TG. 45th year in the yard.

          In total, 410 Japanese aircraft were shot down by anti-aircraft guns in Okinawa. 2/3 were shot down by destroyers and torpedo boats. They became the heroes and the basis of the anti-aircraft component of the air defense. Additionally, they were used as long-range radar patrol ships and guided fighters.
          No rationality of Iowa and Alaska does not smell. Fletchers and Sumners (to a lesser extent) do the bulk of the work when it comes to air defense.
          1. +2
            20 June 2021 19: 18
            )))

            It seems that there was nothing about the British, but no, your spirit of contradiction did not miss. Well, we'll have to favorite moon tractor Vanguard.

            Alaska. Like any American naval project of that time, especially the project to which Roosevelt personally had a relationship, "Alaska" contained a lot of the mind of the most talented people.

            This whole mind was directed towards theft.

            For all other goals, the mind remained so little that it reached a negative value. As a result, the absurdity of American ships even looked comical. This is 100% related to the Alaska project.

            In Runet, it is customary to repeat, following Kofman from the Marine collection of the Modelist-Constructor, that the main advantage of the project was the artillery of the Main Command. Quite the opposite. Alaska GC was the epitome of insanity and sabotage. Absolutely new guns (incompatible with old ammunition) were arranged in three-gun turrets - complex, well-armored and therefore very heavy. As a result, the Alasok Group of Companies weighed almost 3 tons. Yes, the capabilities of the new 000 "shells against armor were comparable to the old 12" guns. For example, with the guns of Pennsylvania. But only all 14 towers of Pennsylvania, 4x12 ", weighed less than three towers of Alaska, 14x9".

            Little of. 3 tons are the two Dakota towers. Armed in this way - like Dunkirk or Deutschland - Alaska could have capabilities that were incomparable with any other "small battleship" or old LKR. At the same time, the weight saved on the third barbet and the shortened citadel could be used in any minimally reasonable way.

            But no. It is much more important to let Battleham cut some money on the most expensive guns in the American navy.

            So why can this project be considered more rational than a number of others?

            Exactly for the reason that I described. From the very beginning, when King wrote TK under the substances, and until the end of Japan, Alaska was presented as an AB escort ships, ships of a new war. This favorably distinguished them from the same Dakotas - the imaginary winners of Jutland, which took place 20 years ago.

            Was Alaska an efficient use of resources? Of course not. Efficient use of resources is not about my dad. Were they more needed in their 44th year more 5-6 Clevelands or more dozens of Fletchers? Rather yes than no.
            Quote: Engineer
            forming a BVP reinforced by one and a half to two times. This is the main defense.

            Yes. Artillery air defense of an aircraft carrier order in the realities of the 45th year was supposed to finish shooting only the most successful samurai.
            Quote: Engineer
            410 Japanese aircraft. 2/3 shot down by destroyers

            Naturally. There were really a lot of destroyers, not two.
            Quote: Engineer
            Your concept is not supported by anything at all.

            This is not "my" concept, but the rationale for the construction of these ships from King + ideas on AUS tactics from Mitcher. Well, the service of the ships was exactly what happened. Except for some experiments.

            Iowa. It seems that they have already hacked to death with you on this topic. Yes, the Americans needed Iowa. 6 ridiculous BB-55-60 freaks left no other choice. And the above-mentioned priorities of the Naval Ministry did not allow building a reasonable ship, the American Strasbourg or Scharnhorst. Or American Vanguard tongue, - Iowa was also conceived for the disposal of PMV guns, as you know.

            But it turned out how it turned out.
            1. 0
              20 June 2021 19: 53
              It seems that there was nothing about the British either,

              And thank God
              Well, we'll have to talk about the beloved lunar tractor Vanguard.

              It is not I who said
              Was Alaska an efficient use of resources? Of course not. Efficient use of resources is not about my dad. Were they in their 44th year more needed 5-6 Clevelands or a dozen more Fletchers? Rather yes than no.

              The answer is no. But even this is not the main thing.
              I am talking with a man whose US lost the war on the western front. Therefore, Iowa and Alaska are not only useless, but also harmful, because all forces and means must be thrown into a possible Armageddon with commies. And the Yapov wave will beat the fleet of mid-1944 without Iowa. The date of their surrender will not change a day. No matter how the American admirals cry.
              Naturally. There were really a lot of destroyers, not two.

              There were too many of them. And the good ones. Even if not Akizuk. And even without the Girings.
              Therefore, the idea of ​​battleships walking on the Internet as the basis of an air defense order of aircraft carrier groups can not be explained by anything other than the fruit of an ardent (feverishly ardent) imagination. So you got yourself into a mess.
              6 ridiculous BB-55-60 freaks left no other choice.

              I showed with the example of a real battle order that Iowa is not needed at all, even in the 45th. You have spells again.
              And the above-mentioned priorities of the Naval Ministry did not allow building a reasonable ship, the American Strasbourg or Scharnhorst. Or American Vanguard

              Explained ten times with specific examples, no need at all. After 43 years, any non-aircraft carrier ship larger than a destroyer that entered service is practically useless. The fleet is already full of them. No more.

              This is not "my" concept, but the rationale for the construction of these ships from King + ideas on AUS tactics from Mitcher.

              Mitscher had a lot of ideas. For example, take off anti-aircraft guns from aircraft carriers and stick in six-inches because their own air group will protect them from aircraft, and cowboy-style can shoot back from ships .. Like all people, Mitscher sometimes carried complete crap. Nobody is perfect.

              Therefore, in this thesis:
              So getting a second pair of Iowas and two Alaska in 44 was very helpful. And if you remember that the second Alaska and the fourth Iowa entered service earlier than the fifth Baltimore, then these ships were just incredibly useful.

              It doesn't make any sense.
              1. 0
                20 June 2021 20: 39
                Quote: Engineer
                Therefore, Iowa and Alaska are not only useless, but also harmful, because all forces and means should be thrown into a possible Armageddon with commies

                Pfft. Found an argument. Cancel Lend-Lease in September 44th.
                Quote: Engineer
                And the Yapov wave will beat the fleet of mid-1944 without Iowa

                So Iowa, in the middle of the 44th, there are already all 4.
                Quote: Engineer
                I cannot explain the idea of ​​battleships as the basis of an air defense order for aircraft carrier groups except the fruit of an ardent (feverishly ardent) imagination.

                Here you have news from an alternative reality. LC were used as used. Flagship air defense tanker.
                https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/94206.html
                Quote: Engineer
                I showed with the example of a real battle order that Iowa is not needed at all, even in the 45th.

                You showed on the example of a real battle order that the American navies of the 45th year had an overabundance of anything. Despite the immodest price of Iowa, it is ridiculous to compare its capabilities with four even more immodest Clevelands. I remember that you would like to take two Vanguarda KD5 Carolina, but it's not on the menu.

                By the way, do not forget that the price of 52 million for Carolina is without anything, even without Oerlikons.
                Quote: Engineer
                Explained ten times with specific examples, no need at all. After 43 years, any non-aircraft carrier ship larger than a destroyer that entered service is practically useless. The fleet is already full of them. No more.

                In this alternative, PX stops laying down all large ships, except AB. Such a stranger with a laptop with Roosevelt would have lived even less than with Stalin. You will stop Alaska like that, but Iowa is not, 4 are already under construction, and the first building will generally be lowered in August 42nd.
                Quote: Engineer
                The fleet is already full of them. No more.

                This is an anti-American approach.
                Quote: Engineer
                Like all people, Mitscher sometimes carried complete crap.

                You see, he was in charge of all this economy. So crap is not crap, and the ships were used like this.
                Quote: Engineer
                It doesn't make any sense.

                On June 30, 44th, 10 Essexes, 9 Independences, Sarah and Enterprise, 21 ships were accepted by your fleet (Ranger does not count). Large high-speed NKs, except those under discussion. 4 Balta, 14 Clevelands, 4 Atlanta Well, OK, 2 Carolina. South Dakota, sorry, I don’t think so. The pre-war ones are all the more frags. Except to radically saw through. The first step is to throw overboard 2-3 extra towers from Brooklyn wassat

                No, your proposals do not look like a balanced fleet.
                1. 0
                  20 June 2021 21: 03
                  I am not suggesting that the Americans replay anything. I am only stating it using the epiphany.
                  Here you have news from an alternative reality. LC were used as used. Flagship air defense tanker.

                  LC were used as used. And the air defense things were done by the Fletchers.
                  In this alternative, PX stops laying down all large ships, except AB.

                  I have no alternatives. There is only one approach that works for Americans. But it almost always works


                  Too rich, too professional at a low to average level, too much of everything.
                  Optimizing the Americans is like optimizing the craft of God.
                  Perhaps in the future they will be rewarded in full, as many like to dream. Grandma-story loves such jokes when a fantastically good start turns into fantastical bad luck and death at the end. But so far all the rules.

                  No, your proposals do not look like a balanced fleet.

                  I consider the concept of a balanced fleet as a whole unsupported. In each case, everything is different.

                  PS
                  You showed on the example of a real battle order that the American navies of the 45th year had an overabundance of anything.

                  On the contrary))
                  Showed that Iowa was only enough for one group out of all TF. Where is there an overabundance, Mitscher chews a baseball cap with grief. The poor fellow has nothing to fight
                  )
                  1. 0
                    20 June 2021 21: 38
                    Quote: Engineer
                    LC were used as used. And the air defense things were done by the Fletchers.

                    Fletcher was also a stupid project. By the way, two hundred fletchers cost several times more expensive than Iowa and Alaska combined.
                    But the conversation was not about the Fletchers.

                    And there is. But some options were more consistent with the circumstances, some less.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Optimizing the Americans is like optimizing the craft of God.

                    Let's go without the End of History. We are discussing specific ships and their place in our fleet. Historically, my Alaska and your Carolines ended their journey in the same year 47, yours a little less inglorious. So they are more years old.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    I consider the concept of a balanced fleet as a whole unsupported. In each case, everything is different.

                    Pfft. There are quite intelligible tactical concepts. For the last period of the war in the Pacific, these are AUS consisting of 4AB (no more), 6 large NKs (no less), 18 EM from Fletcher and above (no less). A properly balanced fleet is a fleet that maintains this proportion.

                    By what kind of ships is the next question. In a perfect world with laptop, leather jacket and Mauser would not be no mayors or peers not a single American military project. And there would be the 4th Hunt as an escort ship, a small cruiser of the Jacob van Heemskerk type as a destroyer for the new conditions, (American Akizuki), perhaps something in the 6K region to control communications (although the Americans do not really need this, it’s just old junk comes in), a small LK / AB pair of 17,5K tons (a small LK naturally turns into a large MCT in the 39th year) and a large LK / large AB pair, in the 35K region, but, of course, with a completely different balance, than Caroline.

                    But in the real world, real Americans built differently. As a rule, their ships were no good. But some were less goofy than others. For different reasons.
                    1. 0
                      20 June 2021 22: 07
                      Fletcher was also a stupid project. By the way, two hundred fletchers cost several times more expensive than Iowa and Alaska combined.
                      But the conversation was not about the Fletchers.

                      The conversation was about the benefits of Iowa and Alaska.
                      Fletchers are quite an alternative in the air defense order to both. Not to mention the other goodies of this class. Fletchers are much more useful than these white bishops. This is the workhorse of the fleet.
                      Pfft. There are quite intelligible tactical concepts. For the last period of the war in the Pacific, these are AUS consisting of 4AB (no more), 6 large NKs (no less), 18 EM from Fletcher and above (no less). A properly balanced fleet is a fleet that maintains this proportion.

                      It is a methodological mistake to take the composition of American TGs for the 45th year and present them as a standard. Where is the rationale?
                      And there would be the 4th Hunt as an escort ship, a small cruiser of the Jacob van Heemskerk class as a destroyer for new conditions, (American Akizuki), perhaps something in the 6K region to control communications (although the Americans do not really need this, this is just old junk will come in), a small LK / AB pair of 17,5K tons (a small LK naturally turns into a large MCT in the 39th year) and a large LK / large AB pair, in the 35K region, but, of course, with a completely different balance, than Caroline.

                      Absolutely unprincipled cosmetic changes that do not affect the course of the war in any way.
                      1. 0
                        20 June 2021 22: 32
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Fletchers are much more useful than these white bishops.

                        The heresy of the young school is heard.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        take the composition of American TGs for the 45th year and present them as a standard. Where is the rationale?

                        I do not quite understand the proposal to substantiate the reality.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Absolutely unprincipled cosmetic changes that do not affect the course of the war in any way.

                        Again you are with your fatalism. The presence of well-developed projects, ready to start in the summer of 40, changes a hell of a lot already by Guadalcanal.
                      2. 0
                        20 June 2021 22: 40
                        The heresy of the young school is heard.

                        It turns out that one of the three whales (albeit the smallest) of the American victory in TO became heresy. What you just do not recognize in these our Internet.
                        I do not quite understand the proposal to substantiate the reality.

                        Where does it follow that the composition of TF in 45 is optimal?
                        Again you are with your fatalism. The presence of well-developed projects, ready to start in the summer of 40, changes a hell of a lot already by Guadalcanal.

                        What's changing there? If the entire campaign at Guadalcanal is approximately equally dependent on the sea, land, air component
                      3. 0
                        20 June 2021 22: 44
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What you just do not recognize in these our Internet.

                        That small ships are not a substitute for large ones? This is not a secret.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Where does it follow that the composition of TF in 45 is optimal?

                        It was not optimal either. But this was the composition of the TF used by the Americans, and for such a composition they needed ships.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        What's changing there? If the entire campaign at Guadalcanal is approximately equally dependent on the sea, land, air component

                        And, well, that is, you already do not need ships in 42? Yes, a kind of optics.

                        What's changing is that losing Midway to the trash doesn't cancel Guadalcanal.
                      4. 0
                        20 June 2021 22: 49
                        That small ships are not a substitute for large ones? This is not a secret.

                        So big are in abundance already in the 42nd. And the specific utility of destroyers is higher than that of battleships
                        It was not optimal either. But this was the composition of the TF used by the Americans, and for such a composition they needed ships.

                        Then why do you call the corrupt, suboptimal, belated monster of the USN a balanced fleet?
                        And, well, that is, you already do not need ships in 42? Yes, a kind of optics.

                        So they are. You just need to stop dwelling on alternatives and see.
                      5. 0
                        20 June 2021 23: 15
                        Quote: Engineer
                        So big are in abundance already in the 42nd

                        And I thought you only dislike the British.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Are you calling the USN's corrupt, suboptimal, belated monster a balanced fleet?

                        Because your version will still be corrupt, suboptimal, belated and almost as expensive a monster. But much weaker.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        So they are.

                        Pre-war? Military 2 Cleveland 4 Atlanta on August 42nd.

                        Would you like to see Americans abandon their industrial potential? From total war and guns instead of butter? Wow, what a liberal you are, did not expect from you.
                      6. 0
                        20 June 2021 23: 35
                        Oh my God, how hard it is with you)

                        я nothing I do not suggest. I DO NOT write what SHOULD be done
                        There is a well-established view that Alaska is useless and Iowa is practically useless. That the sodaks and fletchers are quite nothing for themselves, that in the 42nd year the Americans dragged without alternatives and hitmen against the best fleet in the world and the best sailors in the world. That the strength of the American fleet lies primarily in its aircraft carriers, that destroyers played a major role in the anti-aircraft air defense order. That the American fleet up to 42 was generally adequate in basic parameters, and starting from the 44th it was gorging on foie gras.

                        Despite all your efforts, you have not shown the usefulness of Iowa and Alaska, have not substantiated the rationality or balance of the proposed composition of compounds. and saddled an alternative horse as usual.
                      7. 0
                        21 June 2021 00: 33
                        Quote: Engineer
                        There is a well-established view that Alaska is useless and Iowa is practically useless.

                        Established? According to the link that I gave above, srach for 100 comments. And not everyone supports your unambiguity. Part of Iowa, at least.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        That sodaks and fletchers are quite good for themselves

                        The very fact of Akizuk's existence hints that the Fletchers are, to put it mildly, an ill-conceived project. We spoke about Sodaks in detail.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        the strength of the American navy lies primarily in its aircraft carriers

                        Not in 42.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        destroyers played a major role in the anti-aircraft air defense order

                        There were a lot of EMs and, accordingly, they knocked down a lot.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        That the American fleet before 42 is generally adequate in basic parameters

                        Is it adequate for what? The fleet of a country with 7-10 times smaller industry? I think, yes.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        saddled the alternative horse as usual.

                        As if the world without iows and alaska is real. Speaking about the correctness or incorrectness of this or that decision, you always discuss or imply some kind of alternative. For example, Sodak in the Caspian Sea is, in itself, very good. But if we keep in mind the minimal set of alternatives, then the situation will not seem so favorable.
                      8. 0
                        21 June 2021 09: 47
                        Established? According to the link that I gave above, srach for 100 comments.

                        Yes, even a thousand. There is an established opinion reflected in historiography. To refute it srach is not enough.
                        Not in 42.

                        It was in the 42nd. In general, there is practically a benefit performance for aircraft carriers. Including American ones.
                        The fleet of a country with 7-10 times smaller industry? I think, yes.

                        The strongest fleet in the world at the same time.
                        Speaking about the correctness or incorrectness of this or that decision, you always discuss or imply some kind of alternative.

                        This is completely optional.
                        Lessons learned, for example, does not imply alternatives. This is the basis for avoiding mistakes / making the most of opportunities in the future.
                        Alaska is simply useless. No alternatives.
                      9. 0
                        21 June 2021 20: 12
                        Quote: Engineer
                        There is an established opinion reflected in historiography. To refute it srach is not enough.

                        Suffice it to say that your "Established opinion in historiography" is at best a Modelist - Constructor, at worst an author of the Sick type. Your vivid ideas about canceling the entire US fleet of the war-book is not nearly a historical consensus.
                        Not even alt-historical.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        It was in the 42nd. In general, there is practically a benefit performance for aircraft carriers. Including American ones.

                        A tearful about Midway. No one could have thought that this would be the turning point of the war. According to the plan, the harassing operations were small (relative to TF38 / 58 as we know) forces.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The strongest fleet in the world

                        Third in strength.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Lessons Learned

                        The lesson was to write off all large artillery ships except the Iowas and Balts.

                        You still haven't read the LJ thread? Or is it a dispute for the sake of an argument?
                      10. 0
                        21 June 2021 20: 38
                        I have mastered Friedman (no, not performed by Rabinovich) and Brown.
                        Although, of course, I am never an expert on the topic. But I don't need to dig into LJ - garbage
                        Your vivid ideas about canceling the entire US fleet of the war-book is not nearly a historical consensus.

                        You seem to have alternative not only historical concepts, but also methods of reading.
                        Is this already (prof) deformation?
                        A tearful about Midway.

                        At least an afterthought, at least an inquiry. You twist like a schoolboy caught smoking. 42nd year. Four aircraft carrier battles. That's all there is to know about the strength of the American navy. In fact, not according to plan.
                        Third in strength.

                        Bargaining stage
                        The lesson was to write off all large artillery ships except the Iowas and Balts.

                        Just brought out the contribution of everyone. Iowa and Balts with a contribution, as it were, is not worse than IL-2 laughing
                      11. +1
                        22 June 2021 14: 59
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Iowa and Balts with a contribution, as it were, is not worse than IL-2

                        ISU-122s and SU-100, then.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Bargaining stage

                        The third-strongest fleet, which fought on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Four aircraft carrier battles. That's all there is to know about the strength of the American navy. In fact

                        In fact, the end of the 42nd year for the Americans became 4 out of 6 ABs at the bottom, the remaining 2 are under repair, and your favorite USS Robin, which can hold quite a few planes.

                        By the way, about how good the American fleet was in December 41. Just a woolen wolf.

                        They learned to fight. They took very expensive lessons from very good teachers. And these lessons went to good use, it must be admitted.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        but also reading methods

                        Quote: Engineer
                        the American fleet up to 42 is generally adequate in basic parameters,

                        Quote: Engineer
                        So big are in abundance already in the 42nd

                        Quote: Engineer
                        After 43 years, any non-aircraft carrier ship larger than a destroyer that entered service is practically useless. The fleet is already full of them. No more.

                        OK, cancellation of the entire American fleet of military bookmarks larger than EM except AB. But the CD with the LC must be captured from the act of the 38th year in order to cancel Iowa? Is that how it turns out?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I have mastered Friedman (no, not performed by Rabinovich) and Brown.

                        And where are the iowa builders called to the judgment of the working people? Battleships: An Illustrated Design History?
                      12. 0
                        22 June 2021 17: 34
                        The third-strongest fleet, which fought on the other side of the Pacific Ocean.

                        To deny the quality leadership of the Japs and their first number in the rating at the end of 41st and beginning of 42nd is much worse than any Sick.
                        The fact "on the other side of the Pacific Ocean" additionally works for the Yaps against the Amers. Your cap. laughing
                        And where are the iowa builders called to the judgment of the working people? Battleships: An Illustrated Design History?

                        Why this cheap demagoguery?
                        Here is Friedman

                        They were not checked because they came out too late. When Leyte came out shit. Ok, the speed is good for escorting aircraft carriers
                        But let's take our time and move on

                        Seaworthiness, handling, everything is fine. But what is it ???
                        The actual speed of 31 knots is NOT enough for operations with aircraft carriers. A special committee of senior officers with combat experience states this directly. Moreover, this note was common.
                        What a twist. belay
                        And then we remember that Friedman never analyzes the actual combat operations and look at the combat schedule. See my post above.
                        In the 44th year of Iowa, there are no task groups in the aircraft carrier task groups (perhaps they appeared at the very end). They have a separate sandbox.
                        And in the 45th year, under Okinawa, Iowas were attached to only one aircraft carrier group, and the other three somehow manage without them, while one does without battleships at all.
                        Iowa does not seem to be an important tool in the Task Force system.

                        There remains only the last moment - to evaluate the effectiveness of the Iows in the order of anti-aircraft air defense of aircraft carriers.
                        I don’t remember from Friedman any records about some special efficiency of this type of ships in this hypostasis. Perhaps they are, but read in the book without indexed scrap search.
                        Perhaps a certain Lymephile will bring the data, otherwise he recently does not want to do anything at all.
                      13. +1
                        22 June 2021 19: 23
                        Quote: Engineer
                        To deny the quality leadership of the Yaps and their first number in the rating at the end of the 41st and the beginning of the 42nd

                        Leadership in the Pacific. This is all right.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The fact "on the other side of the Pacific" additionally works for the Yaps against the Amers

                        Are you talking about the fact that the Japanese had more important things to do than fighting the Americans?

                        Yes, the Americans turned out to be a large, but completely rotten tree. But having lost their fleet, they simply built a new one.

                        And what is your take, I do not quite understand? You wanted to declare this second fleet superfluous, I think?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Were not checked because we came out too late.

                        Went dispute for the sake of dispute. Yes, the grandfathers of the PMV were used more actively than the new LCs, this was discussed a hundred times.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        A special committee of senior officers with combat experience states this directly. Moreover, this note was common.

                        The ad hoc committee wanted the banquet to continue.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        31 knots for operations with aircraft carriers is NOT enough.

                        By fan of 26-node Dakotas and 28-node Carolins.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        then we recall that Friedman never analyzes the actual military operations

                        Then why did you trump them? Here, the officials write that this is the best battleship of the war, Friedman does not seem to argue with this, but you understand that actually not this way...
                        Quote: Engineer
                        In the 44th year of Iowa, there are no aircraft carrier task groups.

                        The fact that LK, created for joint actions with AB, in the 43rd year ambushed Tirpitz, and then was used by Roosevelt for pokatushki, has nothing to do with the capabilities of the ship. US presidents have their little joys.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I don’t remember from Friedman any records about some special efficiency of this type of ships in this hypostasis.

                        There was no particular efficiency, the Japanese were not delivered. No, many have had enough, but Captain Dakota cannot be surpassed. In terms of artistic whistle.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        lately does not want to do anything at all.

                        Yeah, it got dim.

                        The proposal is as follows.
                        Let's leave Alaska aside for now. For me, this is the 30-node Carolina of one of the IX projects, made by deeply sick morally sick people. Let's stop at Iowas.

                        1. From any source, even from Vick, you will familiarize yourself with the combat path of ships in WWII.
                        2. You still overpower yourself and read the battleship masters' notes in LJ. I guarantee that there may not be Friedman, but more savvy people than one fan of armor from this site.
                        3. You clearly formulate your thesis. Because if theses a) Iowa are the best American LC b) without Iowa, the Japanese would still not have burned Washington (which is a city, not a ship) and therefore c) it would be better this money was distributed to pensioners have done all sorts of different things - then everything is correct and there is nothing to argue about.
                      14. 0
                        22 June 2021 20: 19
                        Some unimaginable vinaigrette of everything. Even Tirpitz appeared

                        Then why did you trump them?

                        Then, that Friedman gives an assessment of the project, albeit indirectly.
                        Then that Friedman is quite an authoritative researcher
                        Then, that Friedman quite clearly casts doubt on perhaps the main advantage of the project - the ability to work together in aircraft carriers.

                        The proposal is as follows.

                        You see what the case.
                        Toga arbiter in such topics does not suit you. A superhero costume with a dark red nine on the back is yes, always. Spitfire chevrons, union jack, super megalink- a two. Poke wit with a rapier in soviet commies and scourge traitors and clowns in Roosevelt's AP, OKNSH and the State Department - you are the absolute champion. To register imaginary leftists from the Internet on virtual schschs is an unsurpassed skill.
                        But further ...
                        Personal research is not about you. This is a statement of the problem, selection of sources, analysis-synthesis. For you there is no beauty, flight of thought, scale. And most importantly, there is no holy trinity Roosevelt-Ike-State Department

                        I do not consider myself an expert on the era, but you were given evidence under your breath with broken text that even with the speed of Iowa, everything is not at all so rosy. You just brushed it off. What else to talk about?

                        I confess, I thought that behind the justification of the usefulness of Iowa and Alaska lies some kind of research, a monograph (I admit, this was crap on my part worse than Mitscher's verbal tricks). But there is no srach for 100+ comments in LJ as a justification. Cool.

                        The thesis in this dispute, or rather the antithesis, I formulated and reformulated

                        Therefore, in this thesis:
                        So getting a second pair of Iowas and two Alaska in 44 was very helpful. And if you remember that the second Alaska and the fourth Iowa entered service earlier than the fifth Baltimore, then these ships were just incredibly useful.
                        It doesn't make any sense.


                        He who has eyes will see.
                      15. +2
                        23 June 2021 08: 41
                        1. It seems that more than once or twice asked to refrain from take about me personally. Equally from arguments to my sinful personality. It's not that hard to remember, I think. So please, one last time.
                        2. I see that you still have not found the strength to find out what Iowa was doing for the first year. This is unfortunate for trying to debate.
                        3. When a researcher gives an "indirect rating" it means that you gave the rating and attributed it to the author. The author writes exactly the opposite.
                        4. The speed of Iowa, which is so difficult to interact with aircraft carriers, is exactly the same as that of Burke. But naturally, the Victory Admirals wanted to write off the second set of ships and build a third one because it's fun. With EM and with CD, they succeeded, with LK, fortunately, not.
                        5. It is not difficult for you to offer me an English-language source for 40 bucks, but it is difficult to watch 3 screens in Russian, where the argumentation that I am broadcasting is stated. OK.
                        6. The thesis that you disputed applied to Alaska. A reasonable person could formulate the counter-thesis as follows: both Alaska were built in Camden, after the South Dakota, and both were laid during the war. More useful ships could and should have been laid in their place. For example, Essexes. Not only more useful, but also simpler. Established in December 41, the Essexes came to the mahach already in the middle of 43rd (just to change your favorite USS Robin), and Alaska only managed to reach Okinawa.

                        In such a counter-thesis, there would be afterthought and altistory, but rather moderate. The timing of the war, of course, no one could know, and the problem of fast cruising-aircraft carrier forces and a slow line was very acute for the Americans even in 43. Building your own Congo and Ripals was initially not the craziest idea, if not to talk about its implementation in a specific project. But yes, it turned out that King got 2 Alaska in 45 instead of 2 Essex in 43, which is not a good deal.

                        However, you took the thesis about Alaska and transferred it to Iowa. All 4 Iowas were laid down before Essex, the first of which was taken over by the Navy 2 months after SV-9. So the question "Essex or Iowa" is not, there is the question "Iowa or Sinao" or "Iowa or free the slipway." This is a completely different optics. And in it, the massive construction of the Essex plays for completing Iowa, not against.

                        How Iowa was actually used is a different story. America had an advanced industry and a first-class administrator was found - the commander of the Pacific Fleet, but the gifted naval commanders were not brought in. Here's Halsey, Spruens, Fletcher and turn as you want.

                        Oh yes. Roosevelt has relatively little relation to the topic under discussion, and Aiki has nothing to do with it at all. If Marshall and Aiki knew how to work like King and Nimitz, then the American army could become stronger than all the other armies in the world put together. How did the fleet become.
                      16. 0
                        23 June 2021 10: 04
                        The author writes exactly the opposite.

                        Where?
  16. +1
    20 June 2021 07: 30
    Nice article, thanks! You can certainly argue, but envy of the Arleigh Burke project and the number of ships built will not go anywhere!
  17. 0
    20 June 2021 08: 52
    The idea of ​​building frigates is unlikely to have any connection with the strengthening of China's naval power.

    China's defense minister says China will force the US to withdraw from the Asia-Pacific region by 2050.
    If you are in the United States, you should listen - don’t you think?

    The United States will now build ships with the main emphasis - quick entry into service from the beginning of the laying of the ship. Everything else goes to the fore.
  18. +1
    20 June 2021 09: 19
    In general, destroyers ... although in fact their cost and quantity are more likely to be Arley Burke-class cruisers, this is not because the Americans have nowhere to put their money to, but because they need to have 11 aircraft carriers. The point here is that the aircraft carrier itself, so to speak in a spherical vacuum, is an almost unprotected hefty fool filled with fragile aircraft, aviation fuel and ammunition, and it can only be a formidable force as part of the AUG, which gives it the necessary combat stability. And AUG is essentially a small fleet - 3-6 URO destroyers, 1-2 nuclear submarines, supply ships, etc. hence the number of these same destroyers - to equip the AUG of all aircraft carriers and have a minimum number for other tasks. Hence the characteristics and cost. The technical feature of the aircraft carrier is the need to launch and land modern jet aircraft on the move 25-30 knots. For this, the destroyers need to have a high speed and range, which means that they are sized so that they can keep up with the guarded aircraft carrier. In the case of the United States, frigates are needed for all other tasks besides escorting aircraft carriers, so 26 knots of maximum travel are enough for them. But again, the displacement of a full-fledged destroyer is required, but this time because of the geography. The United States envisages conducting military operations across the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean, and this requires a long range and autonomy, which means, again, an increase in displacement.
  19. +3
    20 June 2021 14: 03
    Quote: Keyser Soze
    Democracy and competition have led to leadership in all areas.


    Fact. And here's what happened to the welfare of Americans during the pandemic. Because there were people here who kept saying that everything is bad ...

    This table has been known since last year (then the record was 112).
    But where can you see the same ours?
  20. 0
    20 June 2021 19: 32
    Quote: Santa Fe
    In the United States, almost all covid restrictions were lifted long ago.
    Let's put it simply - the whole world was cheated again, the campaign will celebrate the day of victory in the third world war (with covid)

    And there is a rational grain in this, foreign economies are idle, but their own is not.
  21. +1
    21 June 2021 13: 15
    For a clear understanding of the situation: in the nominal prices of our time, the construction of each destroyer is one and a half to two times more expensive than the modernization of the nuclear cruiser Nakhimov.


    Well, if we compare plans for the modernization of Nakhimov for 50 billion rubles in 2010. it was then worth $ 1,6 billion.
    The newest at that time Burke of the second series was worth $ 1,3 billion, the third series was valued at $ 1,4 billion.
    Seeing that the real cost of work is growing much stronger, then you need to understand that the modernization of Nakhimov is much larger figures in fact.
    It is possible that the final figure will be about $ 3-4 billion.
    According to those plans, the ship was planned to be modernized in 5 years and put into operation in 2017.
    Now the year is 2021 and no real terms and dates for the commissioning of Nakhimov are clearly voiced!

    After all, it is not easy to say that:
    A decision was made to dispose of the Admiral Lazarev heavy nuclear cruiser.
    "Its restoration would have cost more than building several modern ocean-going ships."

    Those. when they really understood what the modernization of Nakhimov was - the idea of ​​modernizing Lazarev was immediately stopped as harmful.
    the same Nakhimov, after modernization, will last no more than 15 years.


    Accordingly, Andrey, but your conclusions that Nakhimov and his modernization are better than the new Burke are completely opposite to reality and reason.
    Here you made a wrong assessment.
  22. 0
    3 July 2021 01: 31
    Oh man! A rapturous hymn to an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer! There is no reservation, but everything is kosher. Doesn't it fly into space?
    The ship is great, but very expensive. And the enemy. Let's think about how to make a ship according to the possibilities like Arleigh Burke, but cheaper. And we will be happy)) Only without armor. Even without a small armor belt