"Even against Azerbaijan, the Bundeswehr would hardly have a chance": German military on the conflict in Karabakh

The command of the German army is studying the experience of using drones in modern armed conflicts, in particular in Nagorno-Karabakh, drawing disappointing conclusions for themselves.

Even against Azerbaijan, the Bundeswehr would hardly have had a chance

- says Lieutenant Colonel Michael Karl of the Bundeswehr Analytical Center, reasoning about last year's battles in the Caucasus.

According to him, this is due to the fact that at present the German army does not have enough systems that can counteract UAVs and drones-"kamikaze". At the same time, the country's defense industry is able to provide them, the issue is procurement.

As the military explained, the Russian Federation, like Azerbaijan, also does not stand still:

Russia has carried out a powerful modernization of its armed forces. In the war for Nagorno-Karabakh, Russia realized that it had glaring gaps in the development of UAVs [...] Industry was instructed to develop appropriate systems.

According to him, new types of drones will be tested already during the Zapad-2021 exercises.
According to him, the leaders in the field of UAV production are the United States, Israel, Turkey and especially China: China occupies 79,9% of the world market share, producing about 400 types of drones.

Comments

[BISMARCK94]

Well tyk ... Generals are always preparing for the war of the past ... Nowadays it is not so difficult to rivet drones, the main thing is to use them correctly in the face of opposition.

[Petro_tut]

Are these systems of counteraction enough? And their effectiveness was tested?

[knn54]

If we analyze further, the Bundeswehr will all the more lose to the Turks.
And what is interesting, the Germans did not succeed with the UAV

[Simple]

And what is interesting, the Germans did not succeed with the UAV

The party's policy is as follows. If it was necessary, then everything would work out.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Simple

The party's policy is as follows.

right. they wanted gender equality and everything worked out!
well, for their gender equality!
it's better when they succeed with it than with tanks and drones

[Real Pilot]

In the war for Nagorno-Karabakh, Russia realized that it had glaring gaps in the development of UAVs

And Russia fought there? Even Armenia itself did not officially fight there, only the "defenders of Karabakh", with some help.

We are developing UAVs, they are in service. Both reconnaissance and shock. Plus, if necessary, we can also land strangers, tales about the invulnerability of Bayraktars and other drones are not entirely true. In some conditions, they are effective, yes. But it all depends on the situation and on the enemy.

For us, a meeting with the same "Bayraktars" will become relevant if ukroreykh launches them to attack Donbass. This is where the question will come to the fore, it will be necessary to tighten the corresponding systems. But the first days there will also be screams about the "brilliant blitzkrieg" of drones ...

[Yujanin]

Everyone was there. And the army of Armenia, and Infauna, and Paladins, Repellents, Divnomoria and Krasuhi. But they were of no use at all. Between us girls.

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Yujanin

But they were of no use at all. Between us girls.

what did you want to say? that you can screw up anything with crooked hands?

[Yujanin]

what did you want to say? that you can screw up anything with crooked hands?

Most likely the technique is crooked; hands have nothing to do with it.

[Konnick]

For us, a meeting with the same "Bayraktars" will become relevant if ukroreykh launches them to attack Donbass. This is where the question will come to the fore, it will be necessary to tighten the corresponding systems. But the first days there will also be screams about the "brilliant blitzkrieg" of drones ...

In Karabakh, not only UAVs were used, but with the appropriate tactics, this is the opening of the air defense with the help of maize, on which the Armenians spent expensive missiles, having sprayed their ammunition, these are kamikaze drones to destroy air defense systems with the elimination of all air defense, this is the use of self-propelled guns with their mobility, instead of towed artillery with UAV adjustments and, of course, instrumental reconnaissance using the latest instruments. In general, the Azerbaijanis, and maybe the Turks, approached military operations creatively, and not according to the charter, like the Armenians, and they were confident in the success of such tactics. And the swift assault on the fortress city of Shushi will be included in special forces textbooks. This little war was a big milestone in modern wars. But if the Armed Forces of Ukraine stupidly copies this tactic, it will get snot, there will be no surprise effect like in Karabakh.

[Boxer]

Quote: RealPilot

In the war for Nagorno-Karabakh, Russia realized that it had glaring gaps in the development of UAVs

And Russia fought there? Even Armenia itself did not officially fight there, only the "defenders of Karabakh", with some help.

We are developing UAVs, they are in service. Both reconnaissance and shock. Plus, if necessary, we can also land strangers, tales about the invulnerability of Bayraktars and other drones are not entirely true. In some conditions, they are effective, yes. But it all depends on the situation and on the enemy.

For us, a meeting with the same "Bayraktars" will become relevant if ukroreykh launches them to attack Donbass. This is where the question will come to the fore, it will be necessary to tighten the corresponding systems. But the first days there will also be screams about the "brilliant blitzkrieg" of drones ...

And you ask the Armenians, did Armenia fight there or not?)) Where do you come from?) Strange, the Armenian military and political leaders say that it was Armenia that lost its best (!) Military units in Karabakh, almost the entire regular army of Armenia was destroyed:
1. “Former Chief of the General Staff of the Armenian Armed Forces Yuri Khachaturov (former CSTO Secretary General - Pashinyan's enemy) called the involvement of the first army corps in the very first days of hostilities a mistake. From the point of view of the former chief of the General Staff of the Armenian Armed Forces, this corps should have been kept in reserve. "
Source: https: //ru.armeniasputnik.am/politics/20210608/27848461/Khachaturov-nazval-glavnuyu-oshibku-kotoraya-privela-k-porazheniyu-v-Karabakhe.html
2. And this is former Prime Minister G. Bagratyan who says that the Armenian army has been defeated, destroyed by 80%. Here is an article by the Military Review itself with a statement from the former Prime Minister of Armenia:
"Former Prime Minister of Armenia: 80 percent of our army is not - this is a rout."
https://topwar.ru/177468-jeks-premer-armenii-80-procentov-nashej-armii-net-jeto-razgrom.html#comment-id-10999109
3. Former President of Armenia Serzh Sargsyan stated: "Armenia made an attempt to encircle the Azerbaijani forces and lost the best brigades of reserve forces."
Details: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/3193085.html
4. The former head of the General Staff of Armenia, Colonel-General Movses Hakobyan, spoke about 1500 deserters from the Armenian forces on the fifth day of the war. According to the general, they were gathered in Karabakh and were not allowed to return to Armenia, so as not to sow panic. "
Source: https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-55005875
5 The former chief military commissar of Armenia, Major General Stepanyan, on the Armenian deserters: "These are several tens of thousands of people, at least 10 thousand."
This is from so. "nkr" were there so many deserters?)) As far as I understand, this is most of all the real Armenian male population of Nagorno-Karabakh of draft age)
Source: https://ru.armeniasputnik.am/radio

[Alf]

Quote: BISMARCK94

Nowadays it is not so difficult to rivet drones,

Especially if you have engines, composites and electronics ...

[Alexei-]

and for what war should generals prepare?
Generals are preparing for today's war, with the prospect of the development of the military-industrial complex, with an eye on scientific and technical development.

[rocket757]

In the war for Nagorno-Karabakh, Russia realized that it had glaring gaps in the development of UAVs [...]

Again the problem of TRANSLATION ??? or their general really thinks that Russia took part in the showdown there?
So we have to click on drones and send a specific answer, if there is a decision / team from the top ... the question of cost commensurability, nothing more.
You need cheap, effective and a LOT! that's all ... and yes, options A and B. Against a serious opponent and simpler, against the “barmaley”.

[Lara Croft]

Quote: rocket757

Again the problem of TRANSLATION ???

The purpose of the article is to show kind and trusting forum users an Azerbaijani video ...

[rocket757]

And what could be new there?

[Lara Croft]

Quote: rocket757

And what could be new there?

Nothing. Just for everyone to remember and be afraid, boo ...

[rocket757]

Yes, yes, it's scary as hell ...

[Understanding]

The purpose of the article is to show kind and trusting forum users an Azerbaijani video ...

I didn't even bother to look.))

[Alf]

Quote: rocket757

In the war for Nagorno-Karabakh, Russia realized that it had glaring gaps in the development of UAVs [...]
Again the problem of TRANSLATION ??? or their general really thinks that Russia took part in the showdown there?

What does the translation have to do with it? When there is any war, the military of other countries, especially nearby ones, are very attentively watching who, what and how they test themselves. And how would we fight. So it’s not surprising that we looked there, looked And what we have of this kind and made conclusions.

[rocket757]

So ours and so there is where to try, practice, teach the personnel and commanders ... check the technique.
And in Karabakh, there the local ones played tricks ... some with a plus, others with a minus. Nothing, for ours, especially new there could not be seen.

[Alf]

Quote: rocket757

So we already have where and how to try, practice, teach personnel and commanders.

And I didn’t say anything about the participation of Russia. You don’t need to attribute it to me.

Quote: rocket757

Nothing, for ours, especially new there could not be seen.

How to say. It is one thing when equipment is at the range and quite another when in a real war. You will not see the speed of mobilization at the training ground, the tactics of another army, but a lot of things can be seen, for example, the quality of the supply system.

[rocket757]

The experiences of the local generals do not bother me much ... but ours, there is where to train and not at the range.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Germany has its main weapon: a hysterical woman at the head of the Ministry of Defense. The main thing is more non-traditional people in the army, high-heeled shoes for men and more lipstick, no weapons are needed.

[Alexander Seklitsky]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

high-heeled shoes for men and more lipstick, no weapons needed.

yeah, how the pimples are exposed, but how they go with them to the advantage, all the naturals from the enemy's armed forces will scatter

[Adimius38]

What is true is true for more than 20 years in Russia finally realized that there are glaring gaps in the field of UAVs. And sow a day in Russia there is no full-fledged serial production of UAVs, BUT at the end of the year they promise a whole plant for the production of UAVs, I hope things will get off the ground

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Adimius38

What is true is true for more than 20 years in Russia finally realized that there are glaring gaps in the field of UAVs.

what nonsense? The USSR is one of the founders of the military use of UAVs. in Russia, UAVs have been and are being produced in a decent volume, but the emphasis is on small reconnaissance UAVs. We are not Azerbaijan, and the tasks facing the Russian army are much larger than the defeat of the group in some kind of Karabakh. First of all, massive (already exist) light reconnaissance drones are needed to realize the strike potential of a large number of artillery and MLRS. it is a pity that you do not understand this and it is good that the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation understands this

[Adimius38]

reconnaissance drones these are the ones that are launched from the slingshot We are talking about shock drones and they were not in the USSR and now they are not, there are samples that are only preparing to launch into series at the end of the year. Artillery, MLRS are easily destroyed by UAVs, it's a pity you don't understand this. And the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation finally realized this hastily preparing to launch the plant in order to completely cover the need for shock drones for the needs of the army

[Sanichsan]

Quote: Adimius38

We are talking about shock drones and they were not in the USSR and now they are not, there are samples that are only preparing to launch into series at the end of the year.

and why are they so badly needed in the RF Armed Forces?
An attack drone can be used in low-intensity conflicts when the enemy has no air defense at all or when objects are not echeloned air defense as in Karabakh, and then with a number of reservations. the Russian Federation has quite representative aviation for strike missions.

Quote: Adimius38

Artillery, MLRS are easily destroyed by UAVs, it's a pity you don't understand this.

by whom? Where??? are you intoxication with Azeri vidyashki?
once again, for witnesses of the Bayraktar sect ... a slow-moving bucket like a Bayraktar can be effective only with very weak air defense and objects or with its complete absence. By the way, the Turks were convinced of this by playing with the Syrian shells with a score of 14: 0, which is unpleasant for the Turks. and this is not even an average air defense, it is only 4 shells with a normal air defense organization.
you tell me who are you going to confront with low-speed drones? NATO? so they are there to the front line vryatli will fly as well as NATO.

[Sonmaster]

Well, now Rasul Aliyev will come and tell all of us how Azerbaijan will roll out the Bundeswehr together with the RF Armed Forces))))

[rotmistr60]

Even against Azerbaijan, the Bundeswehr would hardly have had a chance

Yes, the lieutenant colonel's opinion of his army leaves much to be desired. The question immediately arises - even if you have no chance against Azerbaijan, then what kind of stone against Russia are you always holding in your bosom? But the Germans are actively accepting migrants, fighting for the environment (green against SP-2), trying not to offend homosexuals and transsexuals, imposing sanctions against Russia ... They live “democratically,” and most importantly, with tolerance on the flag. So maybe the Bundeswehr is no longer needed, America will cover (or bury)?

[Doccor18]

Quote: rotmistr60

So maybe the Bundeswehr is no longer needed, America will cover (or bury)?

And he is barely alive anyway ...
The powerful scientific and industrial potential of Germany and military purchases disproportionate to it. Even arms exports are declining (there are more and more competitors). Either Europe will finally unite, turning into the USE, and creating a common combat-ready army, for which there will be enough funds together, or they will completely lose any combat capability within two or three decades ...

[dzvero]

To me, the UAV craze after Karabakh is somewhat reminiscent of the ramming craze after the Battle of Liss. For twenty years they believed that it was not armor and shells that decided the outcome of a battle, but a ram.
Yes, UAVs are useful, but where there is normal air defense ... After all, a year earlier the same bayraktars were tried to be used quite massively in Idlib; frolicked as much as a day and a half, until the Syrians pulled up the air defense system.

[andrewkor]

So even Jules Verne, succumbing to fashion, made a ram as the main weapon of the Nautilus, and only in the Desert Island did he have a torpedo.

[Alf]

Quote: andrewkor

only in the Desert Island did he have a torpedo.

Where did the torpedo come from? The brig was blown up by a mine.
“This cylinder is all that remains of the mine.
From a mine? Who installed it?
This is what I don't know. "

[Alf]

Quote: Alf

Quote: andrewkor

only in the Desert Island did he have a torpedo.

Where did the torpedo come from? The brig was blown up by a mine.
“This cylinder is all that remains of the mine.
From a mine? Who installed it?
This is what I don't know. "

Well ... the commentators are strange here. Quoted Jules Verne and got a minus. Inevitably, you will think about the level of mental development of some ...

[bk316]

Well ... the commentators are strange here.

And here in general there is a group that hates educated people.
By the way, in the USA they are also hated and called eggheads.
Suggestive ...

[Alf]

Quote: bk316

And here in general there is a group that hates educated people.

You are right, in this way they assert themselves in their eyes.

[dmmyak40]

I completely agree about the analogy: for years, they have been building warships with rams, which took away a considerable number of speed knots. And after what? One successful ramming strike? Fashion, however. Beautiful but useless ...

[Sands Careers General]

Come on, Russia has all the rules with drones))

Not everything is said, no one will publish all the information))

[Synoid]

Nonsense, again another opinion of an amateur.
In fact, the Russian Federation is completely satisfied with the result in NK. Well, we have systems to cut drones and are being developed.

[Who is that]

And the total bombing of the entire territory was not considered, the Germans, with their number of aircraft, will not only control the sky, but also suppress everything they can. Or the Germans will play defense)

[TermNachTer]

Considering in what "corral" the Bundeswehr is located, this is not surprising.

[Turist1996]

Yes, the Bundes have everything - they beg for money from the parliament, that's all.

[TermNachTer]

Well, if at 42, the underground battalion commander decided to change his gender and now he is not Herr underground, but Frau is normal, then yes, he is worse than the Bundes. only mice in a dark barn)))

[Zaurbek]

The Bundeswehr of 1941-43 would have had a good chance even now.

[Understanding]

Quote: Zaurbek

The Bundeswehr of 1941-43 would have had a good chance even now.

With the Luftwaffe, of course!

[Zaurbek]

With Me109F and U-88 ....... and "frame" ...... artillery, huntsmen ..... They all rushed there, but did not reach several tens of kilometers.

[Turist1996]

Something I have feelings from the recent Karabakh war, like from the battle at Liss. The obvious tactical superiority of one side with its success is so widely promoted (with an obvious disregard for the unreadiness of the opposite side for a full-fledged response and an obvious political and economic weakening of one side and the same support on the other) that, as in the case of the Battle of Liss, it is clearly visible some kind of brain "skew" of some "comrades" in the style: "drone" - a wunderwaffe, a miracle weapon!
Come on!

[Turist1996]

After the Battle of Liss, it took almost 50 years to understand that an underwater ram on a battleship is not needed!

[Turist1996]

And in a serious war of serious men, at least all radio channels for controlling crafts like "Bayraktar" will be jammed with interference at the very least "I do not want". And as a maximum, we look at the experience of Iran, which quite successfully landed on its territory a reconnaissance drone not of Azeybarjan, but of the United States. This clearly indicates the readiness of a serious state to defend its sovereignty.

[Turist1996]

Where is Turkey and Azerbaijan, with their "Bayraktars", and where is the United States with its Ripers.
Distance - oh-ho-ho. And yet, American drones were landing under Iranian control.
Draw conclusions.

[Zaurbek]

The wars of the last 50 years are "not serious" ..... and take the lives of a very large number of people. Just in the niche of using such UAVs .... and, especially, at night.

[Turist1996]

By the way, I am very interested in the opinion of the liberal community of the site: why is there no mass support for the Armenian position in the past conflict ?!
After all, it was Pashishyan who was "elected" by the people.
And Ilham Aliyev is actually a "usurper" of power! He has been sitting, you know, since 2003, and the previous president is his father!
Is this not a usurpation of power ?!
No, it's "your son of a bitch"! (FROM)
Therefore, you do not care about human rights and so on.

[Turist1996]

You can only hear:
"Putin must leave!"
"Assad must go!"
"Xi Jing Ping must go!"
"Kim Jong Un must go!" ..
I don’t even understand where in your Democracy there is such a point: to demand from a sovereign state to remove its ruler ?! Isn't this interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign state ?!

[Turist1996]

And I personally think that American military bases need to leave Europe, Asia and the Pacific Ocean.
Here's my personal opinion!
I ask you to immediately satisfy my opinion. I'm a person! And in the liberal world there is nothing higher than the opinion of the individual!

[tolmachiev51]

"victorious war" of azeirbadzhan !? - and was she !? it is not clear what Armenia was doing there. PR UAVs. It is necessary to test them against serious opponents.

[1536]

Something incomprehensible, some statements of the so-called German generals ... Does Germany want to fight with Azerbaijan? One gets the impression that many Western "democracies" today continue to live, some in the 1941th century, some in the XNUMXth century. Many Germans, as it were, continue to live with the performances of XNUMX, and even others are knocked down with a pantolek.