On the quality of shooting of the Russian squadron in the battle of Tsushima

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Recently on "VO" were published two articles "Tsushima. Accuracy Factors of Russian Artillery "and" Tsushima. Factors of Japanese Artillery Accuracy ”by respected Alexei Rytnik. In them, the author, having “shoveled” a huge amount of material, both from Russian and foreign sources, came to the conclusion that:

1) the Japanese fleet used a more advanced fire control technique than the Russian 2nd and 3rd Pacific squadrons;

2) the Japanese were well prepared for the decisive battle, intensively training the gunners on the eve of it, while the 2nd Pacific held the last caliber firing 4 months before the battle (Madagascar), and the last barrel firing more than a month (Cam Ranh).

As a result, the quality of Japanese shooting turned out to be excellent, and about the accuracy of the Russian one, the respected author spoke like this:

“Information about damage to Japanese ships received in the Tsushima battle suggests that Russian artillerymen, with the exception of one episode, were hit infrequently and irregularly. This exception was the first 15 minutes, during which Mikasa received 19 hits. By many indirect indications, it was possible to determine that the "author" of most of these hits was only one ship - "Prince Suvorov" - the only one on which they had mastered the determination of range by a rangefinder. "

It turns out that the Japanese were able to develop and organize a better centralized fire control system than the Russians in Tsushima, and thanks to this they won the battle.

But is it?

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with this thesis of the respected A. Rytnik for one simple, obvious reason. As you know, centralized fire control, carried out under the leadership of a senior artillery officer, provides an advantage in accuracy compared to decentralized, when plutongs (groups of guns) or even individual guns shoot independently, receiving data from rangefinders and calculating the necessary corrections at their own peril and risk.

This statement of mine is perfectly confirmed by the general history artillery work at sea (the widespread transition to centralized fire control), and the fact that in Tsushima, using such control for the first time, the Japanese, obviously, fired significantly better than in previous battles with the Russians fleet.

The catch lies in the fact that the Russian fleet practiced centralized control of the main form of firefighting, while the Japanese fired decentralized all the way to Tsushima. And nevertheless, in all cases of military clashes, the Japanese, with their decentralized, that is, a priori less accurate shooting, showed a better result than the Russian ships showed, controlling fire centrally. And this, in turn, tells us that the reasons for the better accuracy of the Japanese should not be sought in the special quality of centralized fire control.

Assessment of the accuracy of Russian and Japanese shooting in Tsushima


Alas, it is almost impossible. We know, albeit approximately, how many shells hit the Japanese ships (although there is no complete clarity here), but we do not know how many shells the Russian squadron used up. Even about the surviving ships, questions remain about the consumption of ammunition for the sunken ones - we, of course, do not know anything at all. For the Japanese, on the contrary, the ammunition consumption is known, but the number of hits on Russian ships is completely undetectable. Even for the surviving Eagle, the data are pretty contradictory, and almost nothing is known about the hits on the dead ships.

It seems to be a complete impasse. And yet, analyzing the statistics of the Tsushima battle, some conclusions can be drawn.

Hit statistics for Japanese armored ships


On the forum of the Tsushima website, the respected "realswat" (A. Danilov), using the reports of the commanders of "Mikasa", "Tokiwa", "Azuma", "Yakumo", as well as the "Medical description of the Tsushima battle" and other sources, compiled a chronology hits on the Japanese ships Togo and Kamimura. I allowed myself to slightly reformat his work, breaking down all three stages of the battle of the main forces into 10-minute intervals and adding, for reference, information about hits on Japanese ships, the time of which was not determined.


Notes:

1. The difference in Japanese and Russian time is accepted by me at 18 minutes.

2. The intervals are taken for full minutes, that is, if 14: 00–14: 09 is specified, then it includes hits on Japanese ships that occurred after 13 hours. 59 sec. and up to 00 hours 14 minutes. 09 sec. inclusive.

3. From the calculations performed by A. Danilov, I removed the close breaks (14:02 next to Azuma, 15:22 - Tokiwa, 15:49 - Izumo), but I took into account the double hit to Asama as double (according to A. Danilov it is considered as single, but marked "double").

4. The first interval was 11 minutes, since the exact time of opening fire is not quite clear - 14:49 or 14:50. The last interval of the 1st phase was taken by me at 3 minutes, since it was then that it ended. The last interval of the 2nd phase was extended by me until 16:22, although it seems to have ended at 16:17 Russian time, nevertheless, the last hit in this phase (in "Asahi") dates back to 16:40 Japanese or 16: 22 Russian time.

5. Hits outside the combat phases - one 120-mm projectile hitting the Izumo, most likely, came from a Russian cruiser, with which the 2nd Japanese combat detachment collided at about this time. As for hitting the "Nissin" - here one can only assume an error in fixing the time of the hit, which, I must say, in general, on the "Nissin" were noted very carelessly. Of the 16 hits, the time was noted only in 7 cases, and in one case (in the third phase of the battle) three hits hit the cruiser within a minute - at 18:42 Russian time. That, against the background of the general statistics of hits, looks, to put it mildly, doubtful.

We state the facts


The Russian ships took aim very quickly, in no more than two or three minutes.



At 13:49 or 13:50 "Suvorov" opened fire, and already at 13:52 (14:10 Japanese) the first hit was recorded on "Mikasa". The next shell hit Mikasa two minutes later, at 13:54 and then until 14:01, followed by stable hits of one shell per minute. And then a real steel downpour fell on the flagship of H. Togo - at 14:02 he received 4 hits. But on this the peak was passed: at 14:03 - one hit, at 14:04 - two, at 14:05 - two, at 14:06 - one and at 14:07 another, nineteenth in a row. The next, twentieth hit, overtook Mikasa only 10 minutes later.

Thus, we can see that Russian fire on Mikasa reached its peak in the period from 14: 02-14: 05, that is, after 10-11 minutes of shooting at it, and after 15-16 minutes from the start of the battle the number of hits began to decline. But at the same time, the number of hits on other Japanese ships sharply increased - if not a single shell hit other Japanese ships in the first 10-11 minutes of firefight, then in the next "ten minutes", from 14:00 to 14:09, we already we see 7 hits. Moreover, if the first shells - a gap at the side of the "Azuma" and hitting the "Tokiwa", happened at 14:02, then the bulk of the hits (six in number) fell on the period from 14:05 to 14:09.


However, then the effectiveness of Russian fire dropped sharply - in ten-minute intervals of the next half hour (14: 10–14: 39), only 8 hit all Japanese ships; 6 and 5 shells, respectively. That is, 19 shells hit their targets in half an hour. In the future, the hits were reduced even more - during the next half hour of the 1st phase of the battle, the Russian ships managed to achieve only 16 hits.

In the second phase of the battle, our artillerymen could no longer oppose the enemy - in about 43 minutes of the battle there were only 10 hits recorded in time. And in the third phase, the battle finally turns into a beating - only 9 hits recorded in 1 hour and 20 minutes.

Of course, not all hits on Japanese ships are listed here, but only those whose time was recorded by the Japanese. In addition, as can be seen from the table, the battleships and armored cruisers of the 1st and 2nd combat detachments were hit by 50-59 shells, but we do not know how they were distributed during the battle.

The floor is given to "the captain of the evidence"


So, the first and most obvious conclusion is during the first 20–21 minutes. the Russian artillerymen demonstrated a high class of fire (which, again, was recognized by the British observers), but then “something went wrong,” and the effectiveness of our squadron's fire dropped sharply.

What happened?

Why did the number of hits on Japanese ships decrease?


The answer, in essence, is obvious - the effectiveness of Russian shooting fell as a result of the Japanese fire. This, by the way, was the opinion of the Japanese themselves. K. Abo, who served as a senior artillery officer on the Mikasa in the Battle of Tsushima, later in his lecture to the officers of the Royal Navy, pointed out:

“Captain Slade has already said in his lecture that you can protect your ship by covering the enemy ship with strong fire and suppressing its means of fire.

In the first stage of the Tsushima battle, the Russian squadron, which opened heavy fire from about 6500 yards, inflicted relatively heavy damage on Mikasa in just a few minutes: the main topmast was shot down, one 6-inch and two 12-pounder guns were temporarily disabled , many holes were made in pipes, etc. But as soon as our ships opened fire, and the accuracy of hits began to gradually increase, the strength of enemy fire began to decrease accordingly.

And in the final stage of the same battle, when the main detachment of Togo was fighting the enemy squadron, many of our ships concentrated their fire on the lead Borodino, and then the Orel, the next ship in the ranks, began to effectively hit Mikasa. Some shells exploded, hitting the side, others fell into the water at the very side, so much so that the roof of the navigator's cabin (Monkey Island) was soaked several times with fountains of spray, causing significant inconvenience, since it was often necessary to wipe the lenses of rangefinders and binoculars flooded with water. Because of this, "Mikasa" transferred fire from "Borodino" to "Oryol", after 10-15 minutes of firing, the "Eagle" fire began to gradually weaken, and after that there was no longer a shower from the fountains of splashes, no shell hits.

What immediately catches your eye?

K. Abo talks about the very accurate shooting of the "Eagle" in the final stage of the battle, accompanied by a number of hits, and there is no reason not to trust him. But if we look at the chronology of hits on the Japanese flagship, we will see only 2 hits in it - a 152-mm projectile at 18:06 and a 305-mm shell at 18:25, which is completely at odds with the words of K. Abo. From this, it can be assumed that more shells hit Mikasa than 31 shells recorded in time.

Another option: this passage in the lecture is another evidence of the truth of the famous proverb "lies like an eyewitness." That is, there were no hits, and K. Abo, conscientiously mistaken, took for them something else, for example - close fall of shells. In that case, this episode will remind us that the Japanese testimony should be treated with caution - they were also prone to errors in their reports.

On the accuracy and efficiency of Japanese shooting at the beginning of the Battle of Tsushima


It is well known that at the very first stage, the two flagships of the 2nd Pacific Squadron - Suvorov and Oslyabya - received the greatest "attention" of the Japanese artillerymen. At the same time, we can safely say that in the first 10 minutes of the battle, Oslyabya had multiple hits, as this is confirmed by both the data of the Japanese and Russian observers (the testimony of midshipman Shcherbachev 4th, report of the corps of fleet navigators Colonel Osipov). These hits caused some decrease in artillery, since, apparently, the 254-mm nasal turret was damaged even before 14:00. But, apparently, the ability to conduct some well-aimed fire with the battleship was lost somewhere between 14: 12-14: 15.

The logic here is very simple - at 13:56 "Oslyabya" received the first hit of a 305-mm projectile (before that, shells of smaller calibers hit it), but, according to the descriptions of D. B. Pokhvistnev and M. P. Sablin who served on the "Oslyab" , this did not cause significant roll and trim. However, one more or even two large-caliber shells, hitting at 14:12, led to a rapid increase in both, which is why, closer to 14:20, Oslyabya was sitting in the water up to the haws with a roll towards the enemy reaching 12 –15 deg. Obviously, in such a position, it was no longer possible to conduct accurate fire on the enemy.


With Suvorov, everything is somewhat more complicated.

The commander of the Mikasa was sure that he had shot at the Russian flagship at 13:53 (14:11 Japanese time), but this is hardly true. Absolutely all sources, both ours and Japanese, indicate that the Japanese opened fire later than the Russians, officially - at 13:52 (14:10 Japanese), that is, with a delay of 2-3 minutes. And all our sources indicate that the first salvoes of the Japanese did not hit.

So, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky argued that

"The Japanese were shooting for about 10 minutes: at first only fragments and splashes from shells bursting into the water hit, but already at 2 o'clock the enemy began to hit continuously."

V.I.Semenov points out the same in his memoirs. Flag captain of the headquarters of the squadron commander Clapier de Colong in the testimony of the Commission of Inquiry stated:

After two or three undershoots and overflights, the enemy took aim, and fast, in large numbers, one after another, hits concentrated in the nose and at the conning tower of the Suvorov.

Most likely, it was like this: on the "Mikas" they believed that they had shot in the first minute of firing, but in fact, the first two or three volleys did not cover, the third or fourth lay under the side of the "Suvorov", next to the bridge, which caused the warrant officer to be wounded Tsereteli, and it all took a few minutes, but further hits followed.

Be that as it may, both our and the Japanese reports agree on one thing - at approximately 14:00 "Suvorov" has already received a considerable number of hits and burned strongly. At the same time, there is no information that artillery was out of order on it, but the conditions for fire control have deteriorated significantly. Clapier-de Colong pointed out:

“Smoke and flames from the bursting of shells and frequent fires of close objects make it impossible to see through the openings of the wheelhouse what is being done around. Only in fits and starts can sometimes separate parts of the horizon be seen. There was no way to lead any correct observations, and even in the desired definite direction. "

Obviously, such interference should have had an extremely negative effect on the centralized fire control, carried out from the conning tower. And at 14:11 this department was destroyed. Clapier-de-Colong testified:

“2 hours 11 minutes. Wounded in the conning tower - the ship's senior artillery officer, Lieutenant Vladimirsky - who was standing at the left rangefinder; he went to bandaging; Rangefinder Barr and Stroud crashed, he was replaced by the right, and he became Colonel K. More. Ar. Bersenev. Less than a minute later, Colonel Bersenev was killed by a shrapnel in the head; he was replaced by the lower rank of the rangefinder, the rangefinder. "

About who got into Mikasa at 13: 49-14: 10


Article "On the shooting of the battleship" Eagle "in the outset of the Tsushima battle" I came to the conclusion that only 4 battleships of the Borodino and Oslyabya types could hit the Japanese flagship during the indicated period, despite the fact that the Eagle delayed for several minutes with the opening of fire. All of these five warships from 13:49 to 14:10 remained operational, but there are some nuances here.

Initially, Suvorov was in the best conditions for shooting at the Japanese flagship - it was closest to Mikasa, the Suvorov's artillerymen were not bad, and the distance was determined more or less correctly. Because of this, I would not be surprised at all that most of the 6 hits to Mikasa in the first 10 minutes of the battle belonged to Suvorov. But, as mentioned above, the peak of the effectiveness of Russian fire on Mikasa fell on the period from 14:02 to 14:05, and by this time, due to fires and smoke, centralized fire control on the ship was extremely difficult.

We can, of course, assume that, thanks to the correctly "captured" distance and amendments, the artillerymen of the Russian flagship battleship were able not only to support, but also to improve the achieved effectiveness of the fire, but there are no prerequisites for this. If the view from the conning tower of the Suvorov turned out to be limited, then what gives us reason to believe that it was better from the left bow sighting tower or the bow XNUMX-inch one? Yes, there is a good proverb: “logic is the enemy of the historian,” many historical events are essentially illogical. But on the basis of the available data, we have no reason to believe that most of the hits on the Mikasa were made by the Suvorov gunners.

And it is also extremely doubtful that the back of the 1st armored detachment, "Eagle", shot at the "Mikasa" well. On the ship, they made a big mistake in determining the distance, could not confirm it with the zeroing data, and switched to rapid fire.

Lieutenant Slavinsky testified:

"Rapid fire was opened at the same Mikaza with high-explosive shells, taking advantage of the distance received from the rangefinder station."

Obviously, such a fire on incorrect data could hardly lead to success. In addition, the Oryol fired at Mikasa only with part of its artillery - the aft 305-mm turrets and the left 152-mm turret fired at Iwate.


Therefore, it would not be a mistake to assume that in the first minutes of the battle Suvorov and, possibly, Oslyabya most effectively hit Mikasa. Then, at about 14:00, the Suvorov's firing accuracy dropped, and the bulk of the shells in the period until 14:05 were fired into the Japanese flagship by Alexander III and Borodino. After a quarter of an hour, the hits on Mikasa came to naught for the simplest reason - the lead Suvorov, due to observation problems, could no longer effectively shoot at the flagship H. Togo, and for the rest of the Mikasa ships it came out of the firing corners - the heading angle on it turned out to be too sharp.

It is more than likely that Z.P. Rozhestvensky's turns to the right, at 14:05 - by 2 rumba and at 14:10 - by another 4 rumba (22,5 and 45 degrees) were just supposed to not only interfere with the sighting of the Japanese , but also to bring their ships to a less acute course angle.

On the decline in the quality of Russian shooting in the period 14: 10-14: 19


The statistics of hitting Japanese ships in this case is simply surprisingly "telling". In the first 10 minutes of the battle, Russian shells hit only Mikasa, in the next 10 - Mikasu, and the armored cruisers of Kh. Kamimura, but in the next 10 minutes the focus shifted to the battleships of the 1st combat detachment and to the terminal Japanese armored cruisers - Asamu and Iwate.

Why did this happen?

It is quite probable that the leading Russian battleships in the period 14: 00-14: 09, following the pattern and likeness of the "Eagle", dispersed their fire. That is, when the Mikasa left the firing sectors of the aft towers of the Alexander III and Borodino, they transferred fire to the ships nearest to them, which, probably, were at that moment the cruiser Kh. Kamimura.

It is also possible that the hits on the armored cruisers are the merit of the remaining ships of the squadron approaching the "Togo Loop". Sisoy the Great at that time fired at Kasuga and Nissin and, quite possibly, achieved hits on the latter, since this ship has unrecorded hits. "Nakhimov", according to his artillery officer, failed to aim, as he did not see his own shells fall and ended up shooting according to rangefinder data, which, oddly enough, led to some success, since one of the shells that hit "Iwate" , defined by the Japanese as 203 mm. The second shell that hit him was 120-mm, so it can be assumed that it was either a shell from one of the coastal defense battleships, or (which seems more likely to me) a shell from an Emerald or Pearl, which were much closer to Japanese cruiser. Only Navarin remains, but it's hard to believe that in 10 minutes it managed to hit 3 or 4 Japanese ships.

"But why couldn't the ships of Nebogatov hit the armored cruisers?" - the dear reader may ask. I will answer this question a little later.

Be that as it may, one thing is absolutely clear - after Z. P. Rozhestvensky's turn at 14:10 by 4 rumba to the right, the head Russian battleships fired not so much at Mikasa (one shell, however, he got), as at the following behind it to the enemy's battleships: at 14: 10-14: 19 hits get "Shikishima", "Fuji" and "Asahi". It is not clear who hit Asama and Iwate, I have an assumption that, in the case of Iwate, it was the merit of the Eagle gunners - the shell was 305-mm. However, the total number of hits recorded in time drops from 20 to 8.

Why?

First, in the period from 14:10 to 14:19, the fire of the five head Russian battleships weakened sharply. As I wrote above, by 14:00 the Suvorov was experiencing difficulties with observation, and at 14:11 the centralized fire control system was completely out of order. "Oslyabya" at 14: 12-14: 15 loses its combat effectiveness, although it went out of action a little later, at 14:20. In total, out of the 5 most efficient Russian ships, only 3 remain, but they had to shoot in a new direction, since they were transferring fire to the Japanese battleships.

And secondly, this adjustment was seriously hampered, as evidenced by both Russian and Japanese sources. Thus, the senior artillery officer of the "Eagle" testified:

“During the action against the enemy, the fires on the Suvorov and Alexander III matelots greatly interfered with our shooting. The smoke in a thick and long strip lay between us and the Japanese, hiding them from us and at the same time giving them the opportunity, measuring the distance along our flagpoles, to shoot at us, since the smoke was spreading close to us and did not block the masts. "

J. M. Campbell writes:

"... fog and smoke often worsened visibility, so, at about 14:15 (Russian time - Author's note), it was noted on the Togo detachment that only battle flags on the clotics of Russian ships were visible."

And so it turns out that the drop in the effectiveness of Russian fire is almost entirely on the Japanese conscience, with the exception, perhaps, of Oslyabi. In articles About the causes of the death of the squadron battleship "Oslyabya" и Two heroes. Why "Oslyabya" died in Tsushima, and "Peresvet" survived under Shantung I came to the conclusion that the blame for the rapid death of the Oslyabi was the disgusting quality of its construction, since the Peresvet, having received surprisingly similar damage in the battle in the Yellow Sea, did not lose its combat effectiveness and did not intend to go to the bottom at all.

However, in addition to Oslyabi, Japanese high-explosive shells disabled the centralized fire control system on the Suvorov and caused fires on it and the next Alexander III, which, in turn, made it much more difficult to zero in on Borodino and Eagle ".

Next "ten minutes" 14: 20-14: 29


Things got even worse - there were only 6 hits recorded in time.

Everything is clear here. At 14:20 Borodino rolls out of action. It is not known what happened on it, it may have interrupted the steering wheel or there was some kind of breakdown in the car or steering control, not related to combat damage. But in such a state, one cannot count on the accuracy of the fire, so it is not surprising that the firing quality of this battleship should have decreased. But the most important thing is that at 14:20 "Oslyabya" is out of order, and at 14:26 - "Suvorov". Of course, it is extremely doubtful that the heavily damaged, burning flagship of ZP Rozhdestvensky with the destroyed centralized fire control system could still inflict any damage on the ships of H. Togo or H. Kamimura, and this cannot be said for sure about the Oslyabyu.

But the problem was different - while our flagships of the 1st and 2nd armored detachments were kept in the ranks, they remained priority targets, and the Japanese concentrated fire on them at every opportunity. Now the Japanese could pay more "attention" to other warships of the 1st Armored Detachment, and this, of course, had the most negative effect on the effectiveness of their fire.

In other words, during these ten minutes the Russian squadron out of 5 of its best and most effective ships remained in service only 2 - "Emperor Alexander III" and "Eagle": and now the Japanese focused their fire on them.

Period from 14:30 to 14:39


Five hits. At this time, "Alexander III", who was at the head of the squadron, made an attempt to pass under the stern of the Japanese 1st combat detachment, turning directly into the enemy formation. Of course, the heroic battleship immediately came under fire from many Japanese ships.

What happened on it - we do not know, but it was during this period of time that the centralized fire control system was destroyed on the Eagle.

On the survivability of the centralized fire control system (FCS) on Russian ships


We know for certain that in less than 20 minutes from the start of the battle, the Suvorov FCS was disabled. The Eagle, being the least bombarded of all the Borodino-class battleships in the 1st phase of the Tsushima battle, lost the FCS 40-50 minutes after the start of the battle.

The defeat of the MSA was carried out according to the same scenario. As a result of a close rupture or hit in the armored overhang above the viewing slot of the conning tower, fragments of Japanese shells, flying into these very cracks, killed and wounded officers and lower ranks in the conning tower, smashed range finders, disabled the devices with the help of which the transmission was carried out data to tools.

Taking into account the above, it is quite possible to assume that the OMS "Alexander III" or "Borodino", or maybe both of these battleships, which were subjected to weaker shelling during the first 50 minutes of the battle than the "Suvorov", but more powerful than the "Eagle", was also destroyed. And this, of course, could not but affect the accuracy of the shooting of these Russian ships.

On completion of the 1st phase


Although by the beginning of the fourth (Russian time) our squadron had not yet been defeated, it had already lost the ability to inflict any noticeable damage to the enemy. One of the best riflemen of the squadron, the battleship Oslyabya, sank, and at least two (but most likely all four) battleships of the Borodino class disabled centralized fire control systems. As for the other ships of the 2nd Pacific Squadron, the Nakhimov lost a significant part of its artillery. The nose turret of 203 mm guns was jammed, the right and aft 203 mm turrets could only be rotated manually, three 152 mm guns were destroyed by Japanese fire. Only Sisoy the Great and Navarin did not receive significant damage.

But what about the 3rd Pacific Squadron?

Alas, we can only say about her that she was present at the defeat of 2TOE. Neither Nebogatov's flagship, "Emperor Nicholas I", nor the battleships of the coastal defense received significant damage during the entire battle (unless the "Admiral Ushakov" sat down with its nose). But, despite the most favorable conditions of shooting, they almost did not hit the Japanese throughout the entire battle. One could understand why the ships of the 3rd Pacific Ocean could not hit during the 1st phase of the battle - they, being at the end of the Russian column, were too far from the Japanese formation.

But who prevented them from getting into the third phase of the battle on May 3, when the remnants of the squadron went in the following sequence: "Borodino", "Eagle", "Emperor Nicholas I", "Sisoy the Great", "Navarin", "Apraksin" and " Senyavin ”(“ Nakhimov ”and“ Ushakov ”were walking in the distance)?

And the Japanese were close, and were not under fire, and there was almost no combat damage, but the total number of shells that hit the Japanese ships in this period was scanty. If you look at the calibers, then among the hits and close explosions recorded in time (there were 84) 254-mm shells are not a single one, 120-mm - as many as 4 pieces, but the time of their hits hints that at least half of this number went to the Japanese from the "Pearl" and "Izumrud", 229-mm - one shell.

It is possible, of course, that there were hits from 152-mm and 305-mm guns of the "Emperor Nicholas I", but the general statistics of hits does not indicate this.

The most important features


Based on the above, it should be assumed that:

1. The basis of the combat power of the Russian squadron was made up of 4 squadron battleships of the Borodino and Oslyabya types.

2. The death of the Oslyabi due to the poor quality of the ship's construction, the failure of the Suvorov's centralized fire control systems and the fires that made it difficult for the 1st armored detachment to fire, led to a drop in the effectiveness of Russian fire after the first 20 minutes of the battle.

3. By the end of the 1st phase, most likely, the MSA on all the battleships of the Borodino type were out of action, the artillery on the Nakhimov was badly damaged, and thus, of the entire 2nd Pacific squadron, only “ Sisoy the Great "and" Navarin ", while the second had outdated artillery. All of the above led to a multiple decrease in the effectiveness of Russian shooting - if in the first phase every minute the Japanese received 0,74 hits taken into account in time, then in the second - only 2.

4. The ships of the 3rd Pacific Squadron demonstrated depressingly low firing accuracy throughout the battle on 14 May.

Conclusions


Some time ago, one of the key reasons for the defeat in the Battle of Tsushima was the poor quality of Russian shells. Today this statement is being revised - examples of successful Russian hits are given, when domestic shells pierced armor, exploded, inflicted heavy casualties, etc. All this, of course, is important and you need to know.

But along with this, you need to understand the following. Japanese shells, for all their shortcomings, set off fires in abundance, gave a lot of fragments, disabled the guns and fire control systems of our ships, while Russian shells did nothing of the kind. In other words, the Japanese landmines did an excellent job of suppressing the artillery power of our battleships, but our shells could not boast of anything like that.

In general, the Japanese, most likely, in the outset of the Tsushima battle fired more accurately than the Russians, although the Russian ships demonstrated a level of combat training unprecedented for the Russian Imperial Navy. But it can hardly be assumed that the Japanese bombarded our squadron with some unthinkable number of hits: it was not the quantity, but the fact that the action of the Japanese shells effectively suppressed our artillery, and our shells did not. In fact, only single Japanese guns were disabled by our shells, and even then - often only when they hit the gun mount directly. And I have no information that during the Tsushima battle the centralized fire control system of at least one Japanese ship was suppressed.

As a result, what happened happened. Both squadrons, so to speak, started well, but the Japanese managed to suppress the fire potential of our best ships, and we did not, after which, in fact, the battle turned into a beating.

A bit of an alternative


But what would have happened if the Japanese had fired not with "shimoza", but with some kind of shells closer to ours in quality, for example, equipped with black powder, as was customary among the British?

Let us imagine for a second that instead of the Oslyabi, a strong Peresvet is in the ranks of the second Pacific Ocean, and that Japanese fire did not cause fires that disturb us so much and did not disable the control system. The first 10 minutes we were targeting, then we were implementing the results of zeroing. Over the next 10 minutes, the Japanese ships received at least 20 hits. Why - at least? Because, in addition to the 81 hits recorded in time, the ships of H. Togo and H. Kamimura had 50-59 (or even more) unaccounted for. And if we assume that they hit proportionally accounted for, it turns out that in the period from 14:00 to 14:09 the Japanese were hit by up to 32–36 Russian shells!


What would happen to the Japanese battleships and armored cruisers if, during the sixty-three minutes remaining until the end of the 1st phase, approximately, our ships, without reducing the quality of fire, would drive in them another 202-226 shells, mainly 152-305-mm caliber, thereby bringing the total number of hits to almost three hundred?

Who would mourn for Tsushima today: us or the Japanese?

So what is it that the ideal projectile is a high-explosive one?


Of course not. The main shell of heavy artillery ships subsequently became precisely armor-piercing shells, and the same British, having relied on semi-armor-piercing ammunition, bitterly regretted this as a result of the Battle of Jutland. Against the background of excellent German "armor-piercing" the British "half-shells" looked very "sour".

But the problem is that our shells from the era of the Russo-Japanese War cannot be called excellent armor-piercing. Yes, they pierced armor, but only of moderate thickness, unable to reach the key mechanisms of Japanese ships. And our shells had too little explosive content to inflict decisive damage behind the armor on Japanese ships, where they did penetrate this armor.

Therefore, in spite of everything, one of the most important reasons for the Japanese victory in Tsushima was and remains the quality of the Japanese shells.

But nevertheless it should be noted that, although this cannot be said for sure, a number of indirect data indicate that the Japanese nevertheless surpassed even the best ships of Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky in accuracy. Why?

To be continued ...
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  1. +11
    16 June 2021 04: 35
    Andrew, thank you!
    Still, 31 hits on Mikasa did not become fatal for the ship's survivability.
    1. +8
      16 June 2021 04: 40
      Maybe the reason is in the third paragraph from the bottom? I don't understand much about this, but I always read articles on this topic with interest, it's very interesting!
    2. +8
      16 June 2021 07: 12
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Still, 31 hits on Mikasa did not become fatal for the ship's survivability.

      At least -31 hits, in reality there could be more, up to about 40. And so - yes, it did not, of course.
      1. +2
        16 June 2021 11: 44
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

        At least -31 hits, in reality there could be more, up to about 40. And so - yes, it did not, of course.

        The maximum figure I've seen is 38.
  2. +11
    16 June 2021 05: 30
    Recently on "VO" two articles were published ... by Alexey Rytnik. Regarding the accuracy of the Russian, the author spoke like this:
    “Information about damage to Japanese ships suggests that Russian artillerymen, with the exception of one episode, were hit infrequently and irregularly. This exception was the first 15 minutes, during which Mikasa received 19 hits. By many indirect signs, it was possible to determine that the "author" of most of these hits was only one ship - "Prince Suvorov". "


    Let's try to slightly criticize this hypothesis.
    a) Here is a historical fact - four hitting 12 "shells at Mikasa for five minutes.
    b) Suppose "Prince Suvorov" has achieved twenty percentage of hits.
    c) So, in five minutes he should have released twenty 12 "shells.
    d) In five minutes, it was physically possible to fire twenty shells of the main caliber from one battleship. impossible.


    Hitting 12 "shells on the battleship" Mikasa "(hits are objectively confirmed by Japanese documents):
    14:20
    14:21
    14:22
    14:25

    Hitting 12 "shells on the battleship" Prince Suvorov "(allegations of Japanese observers):
    14:11
    14:13
    14:15
    14:16
    14:17
    14:18

    If we take for granted the information of Japanese observers about the number of 12 "shells hitting the battleship" Prince Suvorov ", it still does not make a strong impression on the density of hits. In six to seven minutes, the Japanese battleships allegedly achieved six hits, while the Russian battleships took five minutes. actually got four hits.

    We know for certain that in less than 20 minutes from the start of the battle, the Suvorov FCS was incapacitated

    Alas, here are the questions for the designers.
    The Japanese, mostly with the exception of the "Garibaldians", had the Barr & Stroud system. Moreover, it was so thoroughly protected and booked that the company gave a XNUMX% guarantee of its survival in battle.

    Dear Andrey, I liked the article, it was written impartially and objectively.
    1. +6
      16 June 2021 07: 16
      Quote: Comrade
      Dear Andrey, I liked the article, it was written impartially and objectively.

      Greetings, dear colleague! Thank you for your kind feedback!
    2. 0
      17 June 2021 00: 33
      Quote: Comrade
      If we take for granted the information of the Japanese observers about the number of 12 "shells hitting the battleship" Prince Suvorov ", then all the same, the density of hits does not make a strong impression. For six or seven minutes, the Japanese battleships allegedly achieved six hits

      You raised some pretty interesting questions in your comment. Unwittingly and I want to repeat the question that I already recalled in the comments to the last article: "Who shot Suvorov?"

      Judging by the popular British version of 10 Togo ships, the first 20-30 minutes fired at Oslyaba, and only 2 ships, Mikasa and Asahi, fired at Suvorov. And already at 14: 20 \ 14: 26 both Oslyabya and Suvorov look completely destroyed. It turns out that Mikasa and Asahi demonstrated in the first minutes a fantastic density of fire along with outstanding accuracy. The 6 main battery hits you indicated in 6 minutes immediately prove that Mikasa was shooting 10 times faster and better than any other Japanese ship. Count Borodinets alone. wink
  3. +5
    16 June 2021 07: 11
    As always, detailed and meaningful. Respect!
  4. +8
    16 June 2021 08: 08
    I was surprised to find a lot of openly controversial points in Andrey's article .... It looks like first there is an OPINION and then an attempt to choose "facts" for him. Sorry Andrey. You yourself write about the inferiority of statistics on the battle, and after that, relying on this "statistics", make global conclusions (with a bunch of assumptions in a favorable direction). Undoubtedly, various factors played a role in that battle, including the differences in shells, but doing on this accent you argue with a bunch of FACTS :. Data on the firing practice conducted on the squadron, and their results, the assessment of these exercises by Rozhdestvensky (a person who knew this very issue professionally). It's just the number of exercises (ABSOLUTELY insufficient for NEW ships, with NEW crews going to WAR) (and after all, here on the VO there were comparisons of training firing of very prepared ships of the 1st squadron after a break in training, with significant deterioration in the results of course). Hit statistics and chronology are incomplete, that's clear, but COMMON SENSE? If under ideal conditions at minimum distances you are practically unable to hit, SUDDENLY, in the bad conditions you are writing about, fantastic numbers appear. I can't believe it. Well, the disabling of the "centralized fire control system" by FRAGMENTS on all ships ..... this is just an outrage on the idea of ​​an ARMORED CARRIER as such
    1. +1
      16 June 2021 09: 07
      Quote: Niko
      Sorry Andrew

      No problem:)
      Quote: Niko
      You yourself write about the inferiority of statistics on the battle, and after that, relying on this "statistics" make global conclusions (with a bunch of assumptions in a favorable direction).

      Sorry, but this is not the case. Where do you see the assumptions in a favorable direction for me? :)
      Quote: Niko
      Data on the firing practice conducted on the squadron, and their results, the assessment of these exercises by Rozhdestvensky

      This is all great, but this is circumstantial evidence. And there is direct - data on the hits of the Russian squadron in the Japanese, and according to Japanese data. These data are not entirely accurate, but more precisely, they simply do not exist in nature. And they testify to the high accuracy of Russian ships in the outset of the battle. Moreover, we can say that the Russian steam fleet has never demonstrated such accuracy at all - neither earlier, nor later, except perhaps the destroyer "Novik" in WWI.
      Quote: Niko
      Just the number of exercises (ABSOLUTELY insufficient for NEW ships, with NEW crews going to WAR)

      Sorry, but 2TOE did not have so many new armored ships - Suvorov, Oryol, Borodino. The rest have already served for some time. And the artillery preparation looked very serious - the course of firing before the release of 2TOE, then - serious exercises in Madagascar. This is much higher than what the RIF ships were supposed to do, but yes, Rozhestvensky wanted even more.
      Quote: Niko
      Hit statistics and chronology are incomplete, that's clear, but COMMON SENSE? If under ideal conditions at minimum distances you are practically unable to hit, SUDDENLY, in the bad conditions you are writing about, fantastic numbers appear. I can't believe it.

      This is your right, but I am used to operating with facts. And the facts are such that they did. As for the hits on the exercises ... we have no exact statistics on them.
      Quote: Niko
      Well, the disabling of the "centralized fire control system" by FRAGMENTS on all ships ..... this is just an outrage on the idea of ​​an ARMORED CARRIER as such

      Generally speaking, the fact that our conning tower had a flawed design is a generally recognized fact.
      1. 0
        16 June 2021 10: 47
        Well, then there is one option: praying, and crossing yourself turned out MUCH better than that of "the entire steam fleet of Russia" -Facts- and ONLY facts laughing
      2. +1
        16 June 2021 10: 54
        Sorry Andrey again, you know, I respect your work and your name under the article is an indicator of the level. However, here you really did not complete it. You yourself write that this is a response to Rytnik's material. He wrote about the presence of certain devices and systems fire control and contributing to this, about command transmission systems, rangefinders, methods of use. I tried to compare how it was in the Japanese fleet, as in ours. There could be mistakes, point to them, there could be an incorrect interpretation, dispute. You just ignore everything. that he wrote as if the fire control systems did not play a significant role .... and write that this is an ANSWER to his material. The answer is extremely unconvincing. (Rytnik had a "very serious" artillery barrage, and much broader in comparison with the Japanese one)
        1. +5
          16 June 2021 11: 46
          Quote: Niko
          Well, then there is one option: praying, and crossing yourself turned out MUCH better than that of "the entire steam fleet of Russia" -Facts- and ONLY facts

          Hence, we draw a simple conclusion - not everything was so bad with the combat training of the 2TOE and its shooting methods, as dear Alexey shows
          Quote: Niko
          However, here you really did not work.

          Let's watch
          Quote: Niko
          You yourself write that this is a response to Rytnik's material. He wrote about the presence of certain devices and fire control systems and contributing to this, about command transmission systems, rangefinders, methods of use. I tried to compare how it was in the Japanese fleet, as in ours. there could be mistakes - point to them, there could be a misinterpretation - dispute.

          You are definitely right. But for some reason you do not take into account at all what I wrote at the beginning of the article
          And this, in turn, tells us that the reasons for the better accuracy of the Japanese should not be sought in the special quality of centralized fire control.

          And at the end of the article
          But nevertheless it should be noted that, although this cannot be said for sure, a number of indirect data indicate that the Japanese nevertheless surpassed even the best ships of Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky in accuracy. Why?

          To be continued ...

          You see, A. Rytnik has collected a lot of material, for which he is honored and praised. But then he made a number of conclusions, which, in my opinion, are not supported by the facts he found. Therefore, I did the following - first I wrote an article about factology (more precisely - even 2 articles, "On the shooting of the battleship Eagle at the beginning of the Tsushima battle" and this one.
          In this article, I showed exactly the FACTS, that is, how the Russian squadron actually fired in Tsushima (respected Alexei did not do this). And we see that at the beginning of the battle, in the first 20 minutes, the Russians were shooting very well, and not only Suvorov, as my opponent claims. I later brought up my hypotheses about the reasons why Russian shooting deteriorated sharply - and they are based precisely on the data on the damage to Russian ships that we have. Alexey Rytnik did not do this either.
          Thus, the material I have provided refutes the conclusions of the respected A. Rytnik, but does not explain exactly what Aleksey is wrong about, and what is wrong with his comparison. In this you are right. But now, knowing that the statistics of the Tsushima battle are not on the side of the respected Alexei, it will be much easier for me to explain exactly where he was wrong, comparing the training and fire control methods of the Russian and Japanese navies. About this - in the next article, or even articles. hi
          Simply put, my refutation cannot fit into one article. The volume is limited! But what you did not see in this article will be in the following, do not doubt it: _)
          1. +5
            16 June 2021 11: 54
            In general, if you carefully read Alexei's materials, you will see that he does not prove or substantiate at all that the Russian ships in Tsushima fired badly, for him this is an axiom. And his material is a search for explanations of this axiom. He is not trying to find out whether the Russians fired well or badly in Tsushima, he is looking for reasons why the Russians fired badly. Here, already at the level of setting the goal of the study, there is a violation of cause-and-effect relationships, because before explaining the reason for the occurrence of a fact, it would be nice to make sure that it exists ...
            In fact, Tsushima's statistics show that the Russians fired quite well as long as the ships and MSA remained intact.
            1. +1
              18 June 2021 00: 38
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              If you carefully read Alexey's materials, you will see that he does not prove or substantiate in any way that the Russian ships in Tsushima fired badly, for him this is an axiom. And his material is a search for explanations of this axiom. He is not trying to find out whether the Russians fired well or badly in Tsushima, he is looking for reasons why the Russians fired badly.

              PPKS, deeply respected colleague.
              I would also add the presence of characteristic errors and obvious manipulations that present Russians in a more unsightly light.
              From supposedly four rangefinders, of which there were actually two, to hits on "Mikasa", most of which were allegedly achieved by one single "Prince Suvorov".
              Here, they say, as many as four newest rangefinders were given to them, but they still fired past. The exception - "Prince Suvorov" - only emphasizes the rule.
              I will take the liberty of calling a spade a spade - if this is not a manipulation of consciousness, then what?
    2. +3
      17 June 2021 01: 28
      Sorry Niko for interfering, but could not pass by.
      Quote: Niko
      If under ideal conditions at minimum distances you are practically unable to hit, SUDDENLY, in the bad conditions you are writing about, fantastic numbers appear. I can't believe it.

      To no avail.
      The floor is given to the junior mine officer of the battleship "Prince Suvorov" Lieutenant P. A. Vyrubov 1st, who personally supervised the course of calibrated practice firing.

      And now let us remember that during the training caliber firing the battleship "Mikasa" was hit by five out of eight 12 shells.
      At the same time, the fire was carried out by the Japanese, unlike the Russians, not according to shield, And on islet sizes from 24 to 30 meters in length and 10,5 to 12 meters in width. The distance during firing was reduced from 3 yards (000 cab) to 14,81 yards (2 cab).


      Quote: Niko
      here on the VO there were comparisons of training firing of very prepared ships of the 1st squadron after a break in training, with significant deterioration in the results of course

      You are wrong. For example, the battleship "Tsarevich" on December 29, 1904 released eight 12 '' shells. But this was not a training caliber shooting, but only a check of artillery installations and the ship's hull. And this is all with study.
      The rest of the Port Arthur battleships, in the presence of the governor in October 1903, in "roughly combat shooting" released annual norm - maximum twelve 12 '' rounds per battleship.
      For comparison, the battleship "Eagle" during the training firing in Madagascar released forty 12 ''.
      One of the reasons that Rozhestvensky's detachment fired much better than Witgeft's detachment lies in the consumption of training ammunition during caliber firing.
  5. +5
    16 June 2021 08: 33
    Very good article, thanks. In general, such large viewing slots in the conning tower and armored overhangs reflecting fragments inside the wheelhouse are design mistakes.
  6. +1
    16 June 2021 09: 30
    Thank you for the detailed analysis. During any hostilities there are many questions, but the ability to concentrate forces and suppress the enemy will always remain an important factor in the war. The Japanese seized full initiative, imposed their own vision of the battle on the enemy, which we did not have.
  7. +6
    16 June 2021 10: 31
    Plus it is still in the morning hi
    Disassembled intelligibly. In principle, it is already clear that one of the key factors that led to the defeat was the shells. More precisely, their weak effect. So it turns out that with a relatively comparable percentage of hits in the outset of the battle, the damage from the Japanese shells was much higher than from ours. Which made the result ...
    Best regards hi
    1. +5
      16 June 2021 10: 44
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Which made the result ...

      Good day! hi I totally agree drinks
  8. +7
    16 June 2021 10: 33
    Good day, Andrey!
    The article is great!
    Regarding "The ships of the 3rd Pacific Squadron demonstrated depressingly low firing accuracy throughout the battle on May 14":
    - Our rangefinders Barra and Struda deteriorated very quickly and gave completely incorrect distances, transmitted 42 cables from the bow, and 32 cables from the stern. The transmission was voice, mechanical was damaged during the battle (Baron G. Ungern-Sternberg with Nicholas I).
    I will add from him: "Soon the telescopic sight in the aft battery bounced off one of the six-inch guns, they suffered greatly from concussion and the glass was covered with dirt, in general the sights showed many imperfections."
    I think BBO was no better with that.
    And in general, Nebogatov's "samotopes" are still a "strike group".
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +8
      16 June 2021 10: 43
      Greetings Anton!
      Quote: A_Mazkov
      The article is great!

      Thank you!
      Quote: A_Mazkov
      Regarding the "Ships of the 3rd Pacific Squadron showed depressingly low accuracy

      I agree with you that the issue is not only, or maybe not so much, the poor training of the gunners, and maybe not at all, there are many factors that played against us.
      Quote: A_Mazkov
      And in general, Nebogatov's "samotopes" are still a "strike group".

      Quite right. In general, the history of sending 3TOE is a Very Big Mistake of our Tsarist advisers, I am planning material on this topic :)
      1. +3
        16 June 2021 11: 42
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

        I agree with you that the issue is not only, or maybe not so much, the poor training of the gunners, and maybe not at all, there are many factors that played against us.


        Roschakovsky's report from the "Admiral Senyavin" generally leads to sad reflections ...
      2. +3
        16 June 2021 15: 31
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I am planning material on this topic :)

        Class !!!
  9. +4
    16 June 2021 10: 54
    Dear Andrey. Thanks for the interesting article.
    You write;
    [quote] It turns out that the Japanese were able to develop and organize a better centralized fire control system than the Russians had in Tsushima, and thanks to this they won the battle [quote]

    The Japanese did not develop a new fire control system. The point is that Fred. T. Jane, in one of his works on the Japanese Navy, published in 1904, wrote that the Japanese shooting control system was similar to the Grenfell system, differing only in details, but they were the same. The Japanese first tried it in February 1904. A description of this system can be found on the Internet in editions of 1900-1905.
    1. 0
      17 June 2021 10: 22
      Quote: 27091965i
      The Japanese did not develop a new fire control system. The point is that Fred. T. Jane, in one of his works on the Japanese Navy, published in 1904, wrote that the Japanese shooting control system was similar to the Grenfell system

      Good day, dear Igor!
      In this case, I did not mean iron, but a process, that is, the very centralized control of fire, which can differ on the same iron. For example, having an MSA "Borodino" or
      Quote: 27091965i
      Grenfell system

      you can zero in from a single gun, or in volleys, etc.
      1. +2
        17 June 2021 14: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Good day, dear Igor!
        In this case, I did not mean iron, but a process, that is, the very centralized control of fire, which can differ on the same iron. For example, having an MSA "Borodino" or
        Quote: 27091965i
        Grenfell system

        you can zero in from a single gun, or in volleys, etc.


        Dear Andrey, an excerpt from the description of the Grenfell system;

        " The location of the indicators in the group of 6-inch guns is as follows: On each gun there are instruments showing the range, bearing, a specific ship of the enemy squadron, that part of the enemy that it is desirable to attack with this specific gun, etc. the projectile to be used, orders start slow or fast fire, and start and stop fire. Each projectile room and each delivery pipe has an indicator showing the nature of the projectiles to be delivered. Changing the order in any position is announced by the bell. A similar arrangement is used for the main armament. Which are appropriately placed for observation from sighting caps. From this it will be clear that the ship's captain can immediately focus all his fire on any specific unit of the enemy squadron, on any part or parts of that ship, and the projectile most suitable for the range and type of target. He can change the type of projectile, as occasion requires, with the greatest rapidity, and no confusion can occur below. He can direct one group of weapons to attack one unit, and another group of guns to attack another unit of his opponent. In fact, with the help of this system, he can control his ship and all weapons as a single weapon, over which he has absolute and instant control.."
        1. 0
          17 June 2021 14: 18
          Quote: 27091965i
          an excerpt from the description of the Grenfell system

          Thank you so much! But this does not cancel my words: for example, with the help
          Quote: 27091965i
          Each gun has instruments showing the range, bearing, specific ship of the enemy squadron, that part of the enemy that it is desirable to attack with this specific gun, etc. the projectile to be used

          The projectile can be shown, or it can be left to the discretion of the commander of the plutong, zeroing is possible from one gun - and possibly in a volley, etc. hi That is, the same hardware of the FCS allows you to shoot using different methods.
          1. 0
            17 June 2021 14: 27
            Andrey, I honestly cannot now quote to you the entire system, how many people are involved in it, which of them performs what functions, how one or a group of weapons works. Write a lot. But after work I will try to do it briefly.
            1. 0
              17 June 2021 14: 32
              Dear Igor, if you are writing this for the sake of my enlightenment, thank you very much! I will read it with pleasure. But if we are now polemicizing, then please take into account that, for example, according to the artustav of 1927, on the same ship with the same LMS, it was allowed to use three different types of zeroing (fork, ledge, ladder), etc. ...
              1. +1
                17 June 2021 14: 48
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Dear Igor, if you are writing this for the sake of my enlightenment, then thank you very much! I will read it with pleasure


                Dear Andrey, I am not trying to educate you. At that time, there were several fire control systems in different countries. This topic is very interesting in itself.
                1. 0
                  17 June 2021 15: 49
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  Dear Andrey, I am not trying to educate you.

                  It is a pity, because I would be enlightened with great pleasure. If I know a thing or two about the LMS of Borodino and Geisler of the WWI era, otherwise my knowledge is very, very scarce
  10. +4
    16 June 2021 11: 00
    Greetings, Andrey Nikolaevich!
    Thanks for continuing.
    Both squadrons, so to speak, started well, but the Japanese managed to suppress the fire potential of our best ships, and we did not, after which, in fact, the battle turned into a beating.

    And here is the most important question of Tsushima!
    Why wasn't this in the Yellow Sea? Not even for 20 minutes, but during the entire battle, did our ships vigorously shoot back? And there were no such fires? What was it?
    1. +1
      16 June 2021 15: 33
      Quote: Kayuk
      Greetings, Andrey Nikolaevich!
      Thanks for continuing.
      Both squadrons, so to speak, started well, but the Japanese managed to suppress the fire potential of our best ships, and we did not, after which, in fact, the battle turned into a beating.

      And here is the most important question of Tsushima!
      Why wasn't this in the Yellow Sea? Not even for 20 minutes, but during the entire battle, did our ships vigorously shoot back? And there were no such fires? What was it?

      Personally, it seems to me that the same A. Rytnik answered this question well - there are too many combustible materials on our ships.
      1. +1
        16 June 2021 21: 13
        there are too many combustible materials on our ships.

        Sorry, all combustible materials were removed on the Orel, as Kostenko informs us about this, but it burned well too. The same bunks, suitcases, paint. Everything is the same as on "Suvorov". I gave an example in the articles of A. Rytik about the description of fires at Lutonin in the battle in the Yellow Sea and at V.I. Semenov, etc ....? In one, specifically, bunks and suitcases, moistened with water, smolder, in the other, plentifully watered with water, instantly flare up with bright fire.
        1. +1
          16 June 2021 21: 15
          Quote: Kayuk
          Sorry, all combustible materials have been removed at the Orel, as Kostenko informs us about it.

          No, not all. Many materials could not be removed - there was no authority. For example, the decoration of the admiral's cabin.
          1. +1
            16 June 2021 21: 50
            Many materials could not be removed. For example, the decoration of the admiral's cabin.

            But the admiral's cabin is not the whole ship ... Alexey, quotes about the fires on the "Eagle" from your article:
            Despite all measures, up to 30 fires were recorded on the ship.
            Most often, fires occurred on the spardeck, the upper deck, as well as on the bridges and rostra. Boats, cutters, bed nets, personal belongings, cabin interiors, deck decking, tarpaulin plasters, coal bags, food supplies, paint and putty on board, ropes, tackle, communication pipes, electrical wiring were burning.
            Flames flashed twice in the battery, accompanied by explosions of their own 47-mm and 75-mm shells. Charges ignited in the 6-inch turret.
            The last hearths on the Orel were extinguished after the end of the day's battle, in the dark.
            According to the recollections of the Eagle's officers, the fires seriously reduced the ship's combat effectiveness.
            Heat and smoke interfered with aiming. They made it impossible to be at their posts in the wheelhouse, towers and even in the lower rooms (due to ventilation). Suppressed crew morale.
            The fire destroyed communication pipes, electrical wiring, fire hoses, and ammunition elevators.
            The emergency parties suffered losses from shells and shrapnel, suffocated from choking smoke.

            And here are Lutonin's quotes about the fires on the "Poltava" under fire from 6 (six !!!) ships:
            All the fires that broke out on the Poltava in the battle on July 28 were in the same way: a shell hit, burst, began to smolder [98] abundantly moistened beds, suitcases, but a specially directed stream of water from a hose quickly stopped the fire at its very beginning.

            Do you feel the difference?
    2. -1
      16 June 2021 15: 43
      In the Yellow Sea, the distances were long at that time.
      Perhaps the shells were still English. Otherwise Vitgeft would not have been on the bridge. By Tsushima, these shells were clearly over.
      In Tsushima, the Japanese approached a decisive rapprochement. The weather contributed to this. The passivity of the Russian tactics led to a decisive defeat.
      In general, when one side decisively moves forward, and the other tries to stand up and somehow gets out, then such a defeat turns out.
      1. +1
        16 June 2021 21: 28
        Perhaps the shells were still English

        Togo, the sly one, said that the shells were the same ... winked
        And this is the main mystery of Tsushima.
        In Tsushima, the Japanese went for a decisive rapprochement ... The passive tactics of the Russians led to a decisive defeat.

        Before that, everyone wrote that Rozhdestvensky had to decisively get close and roll the Japanese with the fire of his 12 inches, but he did not want to. Now, it turns out, the Japanese themselves climbed on us. So it was necessary for our squadron to get closer or not? And secondly, judging by the course of our squadron, it was exactly and approached the Japanese up to 14-25. This is not a passive tactic. And then we look at paragraph 3 of the article -
        By the end of the 1st phase, most likely, the MSA on all battleships of the "Borodino" type were out of order.

        This is where the dog of this battle is buried, since -
        after which, in fact, the fight turned into a beating

        V.I.Semenov writes the same thing in his novel.
        1. -2
          17 June 2021 03: 51
          It is impossible to approach each other by reducing the speed to 9 knots.
          ZPR, after all, immediately after rebuilding, reduced the speed to the planned - 9 knots.
          And now. If only, if only. If ZPR had not reduced the speed? Then EVERY Japanese battleship, until their squadron came into the head of the Russian, on the contrary, would have been under the concentrated fire of the Russian squadron for a longer time.
          It was the great difference in speed that left our squadron no chance.
          The ZPR's attempt to fight with the whole herd led to the fact that the strongest ships were knocked out by concentrated fire.
          1. -1
            17 June 2021 14: 17
            It is impossible to approach each other by reducing the speed to 9 knots.

            Look at the battle scheme, even the official one, then write.
            The ZPR's attempt to fight with the whole herd led to the fact that the strongest ships were knocked out by concentrated fire.

            Sorry, but the herd is in your head.
            1. -2
              17 June 2021 14: 43
              The speed of the Russian squadron is less than the speed of the Japanese. It is impossible to get close in speed. Mathematics. To approach each other by changing course is idiocy, you substitute your head under the entire enemy squadron automatically. If there is a desire at the same time to decisively draw closer, then the enemy will draw closer himself, because he wanted to or quietly leave.
              Any excuses about some kind of Rozhestvensky's maneuvers are surprising. Read the description of the battle yourself. And look at the diagram. What maneuvers were there before the Suvorov went out of action? None.
              And about the herd ... I always write this. Because with the chosen tactics it was so.
              1. -2
                17 June 2021 16: 38
                If there is a desire at the same time to decisively draw closer, then the enemy will draw closer himself, because he wanted to or quietly leave.

                I consider the dispute here senseless. Because, all battle schemes sin with unreliability, for example, the heading angle until the moment of the first shot. Even so!!! Or did you not know this? I can only say one thing: "Suvorov" was moving towards rapprochement, Togo, getting out of the loop of his name, dodged, trying to take an advantageous position. Tactically, the first blow was behind us. But then something went wrong. And what, this is the whole mystery of this battle ...
  11. +3
    16 June 2021 11: 35
    Yes, they pierced armor, but only of moderate thickness, unable to reach the key mechanisms of Japanese ships.

    This is apparently a matter of effective fire distance. A high-explosive projectile is designed for combat at maximum distances, an armor-piercing projectile is effective only until it has lost speed. By the way, the respected author has a very interesting cycle on PMV shells and armor. I would gladly read something like that on the RYAV.
  12. +5
    16 June 2021 12: 01
    Dear Andrey, good afternoon!
    Thank you so much for the interesting article.

    I'll add my comments:
    As you know, centralized fire control, carried out under the direction of a senior artillery officer, provides an advantage in accuracy compared to decentralized

    This statement is not true for the reason that "centralization" is just one aspect of fire control. If you centrally make the wrong distances and corrections, the fire from this will not become more accurate.
    At 13:49 or 13:50 "Suvorov" opened fire

    Again you ignore "Oslyabya". And Osipov even indicated the time: 13:45
    and already at 13:52 (14:10 Japanese) the first hit was recorded at Mikasa

    The shell flew between the masts and broke the antenna. Here is a "hit" laughing
    rupture at the side of "Azuma"
    It was a self-break. Disassembled the same!
    The answer, in essence, is obvious - the effectiveness of Russian shooting fell as a result of the Japanese fire.

    But this impact was on a small number of Russian ships: first on the "Suvorov" and "Oslyabya", a little later on the "Alexander" and "Borodino". And what were the others doing this time? The Eagle was in good conditions, but only one 12-inch hit in Izumo can be attributed to it. That's so accurate!
    In this case, this episode will remind us that the testimony of the Japanese should be treated with caution - in their reports they were also prone to errors.

    What kind of evidence is this? Abo told the British exactly what they needed to know. No more and no less.
    By the way, sometimes such nonsense is recorded in the English reports on the RJV!
    For example.
    “The type of projectile used was chosen by the Rangefinder because there is a significant difference in range between different types of projectiles.
    In the battle in the Sea of ​​Japan, the Mikasa was used by A.R. shell for one gun in each turret, and the other gun fired a common shell.
    It is clear from our own knowledge that in this way a difference in range was achieved (produced) between two guns (one turret).
    From a tactical point of view, the choice of ammunition used depended on the range and type of target being attacked, and usually this issue was determined before the start of the battle. The difference in range between different types of projectiles would require the adoption of special range corrections, which had to be entered into the scope. "
    But who prevented them from getting into the 3rd phase of the battle on May 14

    Distance got in the way. Even the Japanese fired only the main battery for most of this phase.
    However, one more or even two large-caliber shells hit at 14:12

    Where does this data come from? The Japanese do not have this in their reports.
    but the fact that the action of Japanese shells effectively suppressed our artillery

    A completely unproven statement.
    It can be verified by assessing the number of disabled guns on Russian ships that received a known and significant number of well-described hits. In the previous comments I wrote about the sample: "Sisoy", "Nakhimov", "Oleg", "Aurora". And significant losses in artillery were only at the "Nakhimov" with the tarpaulin "armor" of the roof of the barbets. Why did you, Andrei, mention in your article the number of weapons that were out of action at the Nakhimov, but did not mention the rest? Do you select only those facts that confirm your version, and keep silent about the rest?

    And so after all, based on the documented fact of the destruction of the Abrams tank from a large-caliber machine gun, we can conclude that machine guns are effective against modern tanks. And it's true: they hit the barrel - disabled the gun, then smashed the instruments, shoot at the tracks and rollers - and the tank stopped.
    In much the same way, the Japanese shells worked on our ships. The armor was not pierced, but they found cracks in the armor, damaged unarmored areas, created fires ... Without a huge number of hits, Tsushima would not have happened.
    1. +2
      16 June 2021 13: 51
      Good day, dear Alexey!
      Quote: rytik32
      This statement is not true for the reason that "centralization" is just one aspect of fire control. If you centrally make the wrong distances and corrections, the fire from this will not become more accurate.

      This is a true statement, since it is with centralized management that the best results can be achieved. Or it may not be achieved, but it will depend on other factors. Sorry, but so we can say that a CNC machine does not have an advantage over a universal one, since a CNC machine can be screwed up by making a wrong program.
      Quote: rytik32
      Again you ignore "Oslyabya". And Osipov even indicated the time: 13:45

      Osipov has a number of mistakes in indicating the time and not only. I do not consider his testimony to be credible in terms of time. It's okay - eyewitnesses are often wrong.
      Quote: rytik32
      The shell flew between the masts and broke the antenna. Here is a "hit"

      A Japanese projectile would have detonated with a high probability and showered the deck with shrapnel, causing damage. So - quite a set-off
      Quote: rytik32
      It was a self-break. Disassembled the same!

      I don't know what self-rupture is at the side. Didn't understand
      Quote: rytik32
      But this impact was on a small number of Russian ships: first on the "Suvorov" and "Oslyabya", a little later on the "Alexander" and "Borodino". And what were the others doing this time? The Eagle was in good conditions, but only one 12-inch hit in Izumo can be attributed to it. That's so accurate!

      Everything is described in the article. While the fire was concentrated mainly on the flagships, we achieved the best hit rate for all battles, and you ask - "what did you do?" And about Eagle - you are absolutely wrong, he can be credited with a bunch of hits in both Iwate and Mikasa. It's just that it's not known for certain - they didn't sign the shells :)
      Quote: rytik32
      What kind of evidence is this?

      About multiple hits in Mikasa at the end of the battle :)))))
      Quote: rytik32
      Distance got in the way. Even the Japanese fired only the main battery for most of this phase.

      And what do you think was the distance in the 3rd phase? :)
      Quote: rytik32
      Where does this data come from? The Japanese do not have this in their reports.

      Why? EMNIP is a statement from Fuji. Well, the hit of one heavy projectile is indicated in the Russian reports, in time it does not contradict the data of the Japanese
      Quote: rytik32
      A completely unproven statement.
      It can be verified by assessing the number of disabled guns on Russian ships that received a known and significant number of well-described hits.

      Yes, it is not necessary to count the guns there :)))) LMS and observation conditions - that's what is important. You write yourself
      Quote: rytik32
      If you centrally make the wrong distances and corrections, the fire from this will not become more accurate.

      The fact that the MSA on Suvorov and Orel were out of order is a fact. The fact that the rest of the battleships of the 1st detachment, after the first 20 minutes of the battle, were behind dense smoke, from which only the masts were visible, is also a fact confirmed by both ours and the Japanese (Campbell wrote from their words). In such conditions, the number of weapons capable of fighting does not mean much.
      1. +3
        16 June 2021 15: 41
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Why? EMNIP is a statement from Fuji. Well, the hit of one heavy projectile is indicated in the Russian reports, in time it does not contradict the data of the Japanese

        I also thought so before, until I consulted with the one who translated all Tsushima combat reports. Campbell has this information from Russian sources. And hitting the living deck "fights" with the "Fuji" report.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        but here you get that all these rangefinders and devices are for the devil, if only the guns are intact :)

        We had 4 rangefinders each, at least in Borodino and Oslyab. Failure of one or two did not make the weather. In addition to Geisler, distance and corrections could be transmitted in different ways. Group fire is also essentially centralized, only two centers per side.
        1. +2
          17 June 2021 01: 53
          Quote: rytik32
          We had 4 rangefinder, at least on Borodino and Oslyab. Failure of one or two did not make the weather.

          Dear colleague, your humble servant has somewhat different information, moreover, at first hand.

          And who do you command to believe now, you (four rangefinder B&S) or senior artillery officer "Eagle" (two rangefinder B&S)?
          laughing
        2. +1
          17 June 2021 10: 19
          Quote: rytik32
          I also thought so before, until I consulted with the one who translated all Tsushima combat reports. Campbell has this information from Russian sources.

          And since the damage should be assessed primarily by the reports of those who received them - I see no problem
          Quote: rytik32
          We had 4 rangefinders each, at least in Borodino and Oslyab. The failure of one or two did not make the weather

          I doubt that there were 4 of them on Suvorov, but let's even say that it is so. How, forgive me, could the presence of a rangefinder help in the MSA, when, due to the loss of officers (shrapnel wounds), the rangefinder that survived in the wheelhouse was forced to put a lower rank?
          2 hours 11 minutes Wounded in the conning tower - the ship's senior artillery officer, Lieutenant Vladimirsky - who was standing at the left rangefinder; he went to bandaging; Rangefinder Barr and Stroud crashed, he was replaced by the right, and he became Colonel K. More. Ar. Bersenev. Less than a minute later, Colonel Bersenev was killed by a shrapnel in the head; he was replaced by the lower rank of the range finder, the range finder

          That's it, there is no more centralized control - only the distance can be transmitted and you can.
    2. +3
      16 June 2021 13: 54
      Quote: rytik32
      Andrey, in your article you mentioned the number of weapons that were out of action at the "Nakhimov", but did not mention the rest? Do you select only those facts that confirm your version, and keep silent about the rest?

      You cannot fight without the LMS as well as without a cannon. And all this is described in the article - that Oslyabya ceased to be a stable artillery platform, and then drowned, on the rest - the OMS was knocked out. And on Nakhimov the MSA was intact, but there were almost no guns left.
      You have a logical contradiction - in your articles you prove that the Russian method of shooting is imperfect, and therefore did not hit a lot, but here it turns out that all these rangefinders and devices are to the devil, if only the guns are intact :)
      1. -2
        17 June 2021 00: 25
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You cannot fight without the LMS as well as without a cannon. And all this is described in the article - that Oslyabya ceased to be a stable artillery platform, and then drowned, the others were knocked out by the OMS.

        There was no full-fledged SUAO on the battleships of that time. The Japanese officer considered the sight and the sight as a pencil in a notebook on the tables and sent a messenger with numbers to combat posts. All these devices with arrows were of a purely auxiliary character. Their failure did not matter much. Rangefinders are more useful, they allowed you to speed up the zeroing, but you can fight without them. All the same, the distance was checked by the shots and then they fired using the "mark on the fall of the projectile." The conclusion about the key role of SUAO is taken from the ceiling, to put it mildly.
  13. 0
    16 June 2021 15: 29
    Thanks for the analysis. And here's the conclusion. The Japanese provided suppression with precisely concentrated fire on one target. As long as the fire of the Russian ships could be concentrated - "Mikasa" got it. As soon as the Japanese came into their heads, the niggles ended.
    And the success of landmines is primarily the underestimation of the impact of modern shells by our shipbuilders and admirals. The conning tower mushrooms, a pile of wood in all kinds, etc., etc. Accordingly, and preparation for battle.
    And as regards the insufficient penetration of the BS by the Russians, it is also understandable. From the experience of the war, it has already been noted that hits less than 12 inches can be ignored. And the fragmentation and transience of the episodes of the Tsushima battle simply did not allow the 4 guns of the main battleships to do anything.
    Somehow the British had figured it out before the war. Probably, they didn’t skimp on exercises. The Americans, by the way, too. And we got the Dreadnought.
    1. +3
      16 June 2021 22: 59
      The Japanese provided suppression with precisely concentrated fire on one target.

      Perhaps you are right. But do not forget, in the battle in the Yellow Sea, the lagging EBR "Poltava" fought for 2 hours ONE !!! and was, ATTENTION !!!, under concentrated fire 4 EBR and 3 BKR. True, the rangefinder was also broken. And nothing, caught up with the squadron, and continued the battle.
      1. -2
        17 June 2021 03: 55
        The distance was greater. The hit rate is much lower.
        Or maybe, I don't know for sure, the Arthurian sailors, having any kind of combat experience, removed everything that could burn in advance.
        Reading about Tsushima's hell, I don't understand how Vitgeft stood openly with his headquarters. So it was not so.
        1. 0
          17 June 2021 13: 35
          Or maybe, I don't know for sure, the Arthurian sailors, having any kind of combat experience, removed everything that could burn in advance. Reading about Tsushima's hell, I don't understand how Vitgeft stood openly with his headquarters. So it was not so.

          Doesn't mean, but it was in Tsushima WRONG
      2. +1
        17 June 2021 10: 16
        Quote: Kayuk
        Perhaps you are right

        In fact - no, the Japanese on each ship themselves determined the priority target and usually several ships came under fire at once.
        Quote: Kayuk
        in the battle in the Yellow Sea, the lagging EBR "Poltava" fought for 2 hours ONE !!! and was, ATTENTION !!!, under concentrated fire 4 EBR and 3 BKR.

        No, I was not. One volley was fired at it at the beginning of the battle, and then the fire was dispersed, concentrating it on the younger flagship - Peresvet. Although Poltava also got
        1. 0
          17 June 2021 13: 56
          No, I was not. One volley was fired at it at the beginning of the battle, and then the fire was dispersed, concentrating it on the younger flagship - Peresvet. Although Poltava also got

          Lutonin writes that when Togo, after his maneuvers, lost contact and was catching up with our squadron, and the Poltava at that time lagged behind (there were 20 cables and it was possible with the same 9 knots), it was under concentrated fire from seven ships. Let not 2 hours, but less. And even if the Japanese did not hit it exactly. But nevertheless, "Oslyaba" and "Suvorov" had enough and this time ...
          “The moment was critical. Everyone well understood that if we finally hand over the car, we were killed, they would shoot us - the forces were too unequal. Even if the car gets better, we will not soon catch up with our squadron that has gone far ahead. For at least half an hour we will have to fight alone with 7 Japanese armored ships.
          1. +1
            17 June 2021 14: 13
            Quote: Kayuk
            Lutonin writes that when Togo, after his maneuvers, lost contact and was catching up with our squadron, and the Poltava at that time lagged behind (there were 20 cables and it was possible with the same 9 knots), it was under concentrated fire from seven ships.

            It was not the case there :) Lutonin writes about one salvo from 7 armored ships, and then he simply reports that
            The raging fire of the Japanese is almost harmless to "Poltava", all the shells with a roar and an evil-prophetic howl sweep overhead, hit the tops, but sometimes no, no, and fall into the stern.

            If we look at the time of hits on Russian ships, we will see that the Japanese were shooting not only and not so much at Poltava. The battle resumed at 16.35 with a shot from Poltava. At the same time in Peresvet starting from "about 16.40" and up to 16.45 - 7 hits hi
            1. 0
              17 June 2021 14: 21
              At the same time in Peresvet starting from "about 16.40" and up to 16.45 - 7 hits

              At "Poltava" they fired from 16-15.
              1. +1
                17 June 2021 14: 29
                Quote: Kayuk
                At "Poltava" they fired from 16-15.

                This is Lutonin's mistake or a typo - Poltava fired her shot at 16.35. In general, the difference in time in the testimony is quite large, for example Essen showed that Poltava fired at 16.45:XNUMX pm
                1. +1
                  17 June 2021 14: 54
                  the time difference in the readings is quite large

                  Andrey Nikolaevich! I have no right to argue with you yet. As they say - not yet mature enough, salaga! Nevertheless, I hope the truth will prevail someday. And to the heroes of that terrible battle, who fell into disgrace for many years, descendants, we, or maybe more thoughtful ones, will erect a minimum of monuments in honor of their heroism. I repeat myself on this site, but I would very much like to read the book "Tsushima" in translation, but not by Novikov, but by F. Tissa.
                  1. +1
                    17 June 2021 15: 48
                    Quote: Kayuk
                    I have no right to argue with you yet. As they say - not matured yet, salaga!

                    Andrey, I beg you .... What do you mean - not mature enough? Even as they grew up, everything is absolutely in order. If it turns out that I am wrong in something, I will obey and say thank you. And if you are wrong about something, then, again, everyone has the right to have their own point of view. If only the discussion was cultural, but with that you were always all right. It started to get me in sometimes ... drinks
  14. -5
    17 June 2021 12: 08
    There is only one conclusion - the Russian squadron was crushed to smithereens and there is nothing to look for non-existent excuses.
    1. +2
      17 June 2021 12: 42
      Quote: Vyacheslav01
      and there is nothing to look for non-existent excuses.

      There is a search not for excuses, but for reasons of defeat. Try to understand the difference
      1. 0
        17 June 2021 13: 37
        There is a search not for excuses, but for reasons of defeat. Try to understand the difference

        Exactly. Justified for the misdemeanor. The reasons are analyzed.
  15. +2
    18 June 2021 08: 24
    Andrey, thanks for the article! Tsushima is illuminated from an unusual and interesting angle. I would say that your article does not contradict Alexey Rytik's article, but rather supplements it. Alexey showed why the Japanese fired better, and you explained why the Russian fire, at first accurate enough, "faded" so quickly. And here the role of Japanese shells in the destruction of the Russian SUAO is shown very clearly. An analogy comes to mind in November 1942, when Japanese heavy cruisers trimmed the American battleship South Dakota. The armor was not pierced, but made it incapacitated, destroying the SUAO ...
    I look forward to continuing!
    1. +2
      18 June 2021 14: 00
      Good afternoon, dear Andrey!
      Quote: Andrey152
      I would say that your article does not contradict Alexey Rytik's article, but rather supplements it.

      Relatively :) The point is. that Aleksey thinks that the Russians fired badly, and I thought that they fired well, but very quickly lost this opportunity.
      Quote: Andrey152
      I look forward to continuing!

      I will try not to delay! hi
      1. +2
        20 June 2021 20: 03
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I will try not to delay!

        Andrey, I would like to see your explanations, why under Tsushima in 20 minutes the Japanese were able to disable at least 2 of our battleships, but under Shandung they did not succeed and our squadron fought with the Japanese almost on equal terms?
        1. +3
          21 June 2021 07: 28
          Dear Andrey, hello!
          Quote: Andrey152
          Andrey, I would like to see your explanations why under Tsushima in 20 minutes the Japanese were able to disable at least 2 of our battleships

          To begin with, in the first phase of the battle in the LM, the sides fired at long distances, and the Russian ships did not receive significant damage. As for the second phase ...
          "Oslyabya" went out of order due to the quality of its construction (or rather, the absence of this very quality). It turned out like this: there are two ships of the same type, Oslyabya and Peresvet. Both within a short time (the beginning of Tsushima for Oslyabi and the beginning of the 2nd phase of the battle in the Yellow Sea for Peresvet) received surprisingly similar damage. But Oslyabya died, and Peresvet was not going to sink close, and fought for himself as if nothing had happened (problems arose on him, but they did not threaten the death of the ship. More details - here
          https://topwar.ru/172939-o-prichinah-gibeli-jeskadrennogo-bronenosca-osljabja.html
          https://topwar.ru/173375-dva-bogatyrja-pochemu-osljabja-pogib-v-cusime-a-peresvet-ucelel-pri-shantunge.html
          But the Tsarevich, which is characteristic, was knocked out of action even faster than Suvorov - the Japanese managed to concentrate fire on him somewhere at 17.40 (the first hit in the 2nd phase was at 17.00, the second - only at 17.40, but then hits followed regularly ). But there it was a "golden hit".
          In general, the following worked in the FM - our ships received a relatively uniform and small number of hits. Tsarevich - 24 hits, Retvizan - 23, Pobeda - 11, Peresvet - about 38, Sevastopol - up to 20, Poltava - 25. In addition, the Japanese used a lot of armor-piercing 305-mm shells, which carried a significantly smaller amount of shimoza (in Tsushima they shot mostly land mines). In Tsushima, the distances were initially shorter, and the Japanese fired, most likely, more accurately. All this combined and played a role.
          1. 0
            21 June 2021 22: 00
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In general, the following worked in the FM - our ships received a relatively uniform and small number of hits.

            Approximately understandable ... Andrey, you wrote that in Tsushima ours started shooting well, but their SUAO were quickly, in 20 minutes, incapacitated by the shooting of the Japanese. After that, the battle went into one gate, which you very eloquently illustrated with the statistics of hits at intervals.
            How was it under Shandung? Is it the same as the extinction of our fire and the number of hits on the Japanese under Tsushima? Or a more or less uniform number of hits to the Japanese at intervals?
            1. +1
              22 June 2021 07: 50
              Good day!
              Quote: Andrey152
              How was it under Shandung? Is it the same as the extinction of our fire and the number of hits on the Japanese under Tsushima? Or a more or less uniform number of hits to the Japanese at intervals?

              There, the number of hits itself is too scanty for sane statistics. It turns out that in the first phase Mikasa received 7-8 hits, Asahi - 1, Nissin - 2, and in total - 10-11 hits. Between the phases, Yakumo received 1 hit (at 15.00). In the second phase, Mikasa was hit by 14-15 shells, Nissin - 1, total - 15-16. Plus, 3 shells of unknown caliber hit Kasuga and it is not known at what time, perhaps - one shell hit the stern of Sikishima. (I only take into account hits on ships that were in the line. There were others after the end of the main battle - in Chin Yen, etc.)
              Thus, we can see an increase in hits in the 2nd phase, but let's not forget that it lasted more than an hour and a half, and during this time the Russian ships reached only 15-16 recorded hits. And this despite the fact that the MSA was launched only at Peresvet (at the very beginning of the 2nd phase) and closer to 18.00 at Retvizan.
              1. 0
                22 June 2021 08: 01
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And this despite the fact that the MSA was launched only at Peresvet (at the very beginning of the 2nd phase) and closer to 18.00 at Retvizan.

                Good morning Andrey!
                Hmm ... So it turns out that the Japanese were really radically better at shooting under Tsushima?
                1. +2
                  22 June 2021 08: 21
                  Quote: Andrey152
                  Hmm ... So it turns out that the Japanese were really radically better at shooting under Tsushima?

                  It is possible to compare, and I am going to do it - but later, when I finish my polemic with the esteemed Alexei hi
  16. -1
    21 June 2021 05: 50
    Let's put it in a simple way - on your fingers:
    1. Quality - there is a category that cannot be calculated, well, it tastes like borscht ... (3 people and different tastes).
    2. LMS on RIF ships did not affect accuracy, accuracy, etc. She (LMS) related to the organization of fire control. (where - heading angle, approximate distance, type of projectile and how to fire - continuously, etc.).
    3. In this case, aiming and accuracy fell only on the gunners (!). At a distance of 60 kbt, the target - battleship - is less than 1 degree, at 40 kbt - 1 degree. angular magnitude. If the ship on the course is scouring left and right at 4-5 degrees, and in the gunner's sight, the targets are not constantly tracked (the course angle does not change) ... and one shot can be at one target, and the second at another ... corrections for speed, draft, wind, etc. - did not exist at all.
    4. The Japanese gunners kept the target in the telescopic sight constantly and fired only on an even keel ... That was enough to win.
    5. Organized artillery firing of the 2TOE stopped after 6-8 minutes from the beginning of the battle ... then there was only firing ... shutting his eyes ...
    There is no black cat in the room ... the light was on long ago What are we looking for?
    1. +3
      21 June 2021 07: 52
      Quote: Shturman_50
      Let's put it in a simple way - on your fingers:

      No need to use your fingers, you need to learn a little bit
      Quote: Shturman_50
      In this case, aiming and accuracy fell only on the gunners (!).

      Read at least "Artillery Service Organization ..." at 2TOE. This is a REAL document, on the basis of which the shooting was organized. The senior artilleryman gave a target to the guns, corrections for the whole and the elevation angle, and it was strictly forbidden to rearrange them independently for the gunners. He gave amendments for the most numerous caliber (usually 6-in), the towers themselves recalculated the amendment - but they were commanded by officers. The first blooper.
      Quote: Shturman_50
      At a distance of 60 kbt, the target - battleship - is less than 1 degree,

      The only question is that the distance in Tsushima rarely exceeded 40 cables. Second blooper.
      Quote: Shturman_50
      And taking into account the correction for speed, draft, wind, etc. - did not exist at all.

      We open the Yatsyno textbook of 1901 release - oh!

      Third blooper.
      Quote: Shturman_50
      The Japanese gunners kept the target in the telescopic sight constantly and fired only on an even keel ...

      Firstly, the optics were also on the ships of 2TOE, and secondly - then they fired not on an even keel, but in the extreme positions of pitching, since there the ship seemed to freeze, but on an even keel the speed of this very pitching was maximum, and while the projectile flies from the barrel, it gets an unnecessary elevation correction (all from the same textbook). Fourth blooper.
      Quote: Shturman_50
      The organized artillery firing of the 2TOE stopped after 6-8 minutes from the beginning of the battle ... then there was only firing ... closing my eyes ...

      But senior artillery officer Mikasa Abe thinks differently
      And in the final stage of the same battle, when the main detachment of Togo was fighting the enemy squadron, many of our ships concentrated their fire on the lead Borodino, and then the Eagle, the next ship in the ranks, began to effectively hit Mikasa. Some shells exploded, hitting the side, others fell into the water at the very side, so much so that the roof of the navigator's cabin (Monkey Island) was soaked several times with fountains of spray, causing significant inconvenience, since it was often necessary to wipe the lenses of rangefinders and binoculars flooded with water.

      Fifth blooper.
      Navigator, aren't there too many blunders for a message of 181 words? :))))
  17. SID
    0
    16 August 2021 14: 02
    Unkillable theme. Just a G-spot ...
  18. 0
    4 August 2023 01: 58

    You can write as much as you like about the accuracy of Russian shooting, but the fact remains that we did not sink a single Japanese battleship. In general, this means that this is a complex error of many factors.
    But I showed in my picture as best I could that our gunners fought almost no less boldly.

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