In The Hague, court begins hearing MH17 "on the merits"

133

Today in the Netherlands, the next stage of the court's consideration of a criminal case related to the events of almost 7 years ago begins. We are talking about the "Boeing" of Malaysian Airlines, which was shot down in the skies over the Donbass.

According to the Dutch press, today "the court begins to consider the MH17 case on the merits." The case will be dealt with by a panel of judges of the District Court in The Hague.



It is necessary to take into account the fact that the trial has been ongoing since March 9 of this year. During this time, the judges themselves decided to visit the airbase, where the fragments of the downed airliner are stored, and not all of them. Experts and ordinary people then had a question, why did the judges go to look at the wreckage, if they should have at their disposal comprehensive materials from the investigation, which lasted more than 6 years? The judges are experts in the field aviation and its technical features?

No answers were received to these questions.

At the moment, the Dutch investigation team has identified three Russian citizens and one Ukrainian citizen as the main defendants in the case. They are allegedly the ones involved in the attack on MH17. Among them is the notorious Igor Strelkov (Girkin), who served as the commander of the Donbass militia in 2014.

It is already being said in the Netherlands that there is no need to expect a quick decision from the court in The Hague. Attention is also drawn to the fact that the schedule of meetings has already been spelled out, and right up to 2022. In this regard, new questions arise regarding the work of judges and the procedure for conducting a court. Based on what considerations, is it known in advance that the meetings in The Hague will not be limited to 2021?

There are also questions to the investigation, including the question of whether its representatives managed to personally communicate with the dispatchers of the Dnepropetrovsk airport, who took the liner over the epicenter of hostilities in Donbass?
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    1. +11
      7 2021 June
      thimblers their name and surname
      1. +3
        7 2021 June
        This is the Netherlands, and if there was a court in Estonia, until what year would it be held? True, this has its own charm, in the Netherlands drugs are allowed, now they have smoked normally, and by the 22nd year what will they smoke?
        1. 0
          7 2021 June
          the Estonian court would last until the 42nd millennium, and when the emperor has already been sitting on the golden throne for more than 10000 years, then they will announce a break for sentencing :)
      2. +28
        7 2021 June
        It kills me to mention the trial in The Hague in vain.
        I was there. There is no such disgrace anywhere else!

        1. You are not given a protocol in your hands and are not allowed to sign it. If you have a lawyer, then only he can read it. But not you! Although you were there too. This is to make sure you hire lawyers, such blackmail-mantle. At the request of the Consulate, I wrote them a request for the issuance of a protocol - both times they sent me nonsense like "a statement in a free style", but not a protocol.

        2. If you naively believe that when your opponent is lying, and you can prove it, then you can interrupt his speech or say "protest" - you have watched too many American films. In fact - a prose writer: one side got through, then your lawyer, they give you a couple of phrases - FSSE !!! If you have found new aspects, then ... it's too late to drink Borjomi - they don't have time. If you want to say something else: forget, they have no time. If you appeal to the fact that there is a clear violation of the law, forget it, they are all tied up, including your lawyer, who is being pressured to take away his license.
        I won the case there only when I provided minute-by-minute steps, including evidence, and REFUSED ATTORNEY SERVICES in order to have more time, and also threatened to tell everything to the press ...


        3. You must provide your "evidence" to the court .. before the hearing, otherwise they will not be considered (of course, the scheme is the same - because they do not have time!) Moreover, your opponents have the right to access them ... so that their lawyers could better prepare in advance for the rebuttal.
        In general, you realized that in such a way the case can be won there only if the first person sued and concocted the whole case himself.

        4. Your opponents can lie like gray geldings - no one will punish them for this, such an article as "misleading the court" is never on the agenda. No self-respecting judge in The Hague will punish him for being lied to in court. Of course, it is the administrative units that are lying. If you lie, you will get it right. Therefore, they are terribly afraid when some desperate person goes to journalists. There is an article for lying in court, purely theoretically, and covering such circumstances by the court is an unseemly thing ...

        5. The court does not check evidence. Someone said something - that's the fact for you. To prove that this is a lie and defamation is more expensive for yourself. They just got used to the fact that in Go and the words of something like that - defamation - no one heard.

        I remember the ingenious work of a friend who bought an apartment 60 meters away, and it turned out to be 43x. Within 2 months, he could refuse her by law. The lawyer suggested that he pay the sellers 2000 euros in order to settle everything peacefully. This is for an acquaintance to pay those who sold him an apartment of a smaller size than specified in the contract. The acquaintance was from Russia, where they sacredly believe in The Hague, refused. As a result, he was ordered to pay 3000 euros to those who sold him a small apartment in violation of the law. That's all you need to know about the Hague court.
        So if you think that in The Hague they can somehow punish Ukrainian criminals - but I will never believe in life!

        I'm not talking about the police investigations, when in our town they found a dead boy in the forest. Police version: the boy worked as a postman after school, delivered all the mail, then went in a thin jacket to the winter forest and walked on it all night in a blizzard and frost, and by 6 o'clock in the morning he went to his bike and ... killed himself, leaving traces of violence on the neck to confuse the police. The fact that the witnesses saw a former pedophile man who was hanging around there and local nationalist guys (the boy was an Arab) did not bother anyone. I asked a Dutch woman I knew if she believed in this nonsense: "Yes, of course! This is suicide." In general, their logic is gregarious and they believe not just at a word, but at times. And for noodles, probably, ears are specially grown.
        Therefore, they have not yet come up with their own story about Boeing ...

        So do not mention The Hague in vain in front of me. Brrrr!

        (C)

        1. +10
          7 2021 June
          I'm still waiting for the process to begin according to Susanin ...
          1. +5
            7 2021 June
            first, the Mongols must answer for the capture of Kiev by the Tatar-Mongols, and pay reparations to the Independent, and then it will come to Susanin :)
            1. 0
              7 2021 June
              Quote: Shkworen
              first, the Mongols must answer for the capture of Kiev by the Tatar-Mongols, and pay reparations to the Independent, and then it will come to Susanin :)


              Shhh, otherwise the Mongols will attract the Tatars in solidarity. And this is what happens? Russia will have to Ukraine money?))))
        2. +4
          7 2021 June
          Someone is waiting for a fair decision from the West? It will not be. The "culprit" was identified even before the start of the investigation. Almost immediately, as soon as it became known that the Boeing was shot down. And these are NOT the true culprits. And these seven years are just a rough adjustment of the "fair decision" to the given answer. All these smart-looking uncles and aunts they lie.
          1. -9
            7 2021 June
            Someone is waiting for a fair decision from the West?

            Dear Vladimir hi, the process could take place in the International Court of Justice, where the Russian Federation has a weight representation! How do you explain the fact that the Russian Federation has blocked this proposal, using its veto in the UN Security Council? Is it not for lowering the status of the trial and then repeating "the trial is wrong"?
            Colleague Shkworen (Dmitry), writes down in his comments:
            if I'm not mistaken, then Russia does not recognize the jurisdiction of the Hague International Court, and now it is clear why :)

            Don't you think it's strange? After all, if the Russian Federation is not to blame, it would be more logical to prefer the ICJ to the UN! And she refused, knowing that in this case the case would be conducted by the nat. Dutch court!
            1. +4
              7 2021 June
              Boyan, this is not my first day at VO and I know some of the participants, their preferences, objectivity and "objectivity". Including yours.

              What "weighty representation" in the ICC are you talking about? One judge from 15 is this "weighty representation"? Do not make me laugh.

              And the "objectivity" of the International Court of Justice in The Hague is well known!

              As regards the Dutch District Court, I assume that in vain everyone in the West (including you) rejoices at the upcoming condemnation of Russia! I am sure that Russia Yes such a trump card that will destroy all your mocking long-term "investigations" and "trial" to dust. And Russia patiently waiting for the end of the mocking "trial". That is why the "fair trial" has been an unprecedented event in world history for so long! - and pulls with the announcement of the decision: guess, that will happen and are afraid.
              1. +2
                7 2021 June
                Quote: pytar
                I will tell you one "secret"! In the world, few doubt that the ill-fated Boeing was shot down by the militia

                And the main argument: the airplane was hit by russian missile. This is nonsense - yes; it's true - yes. But the general impression remained ...
              2. -3
                7 2021 June
                Boyan, this is not my first day at VO and I know some of the participants, their preferences, objectivity and "objectivity". Including yours.

                Vladimir, let us not reproach each other for sins! Everyone, including you, is subjective. This is normal. I have already said - I have no claim to "first instance"!
                What "weighty representation" in the ICC are you talking about? Is one judge out of 15 "weighty representation"? Do not make me laugh.

                A judge, even one, is a weight judge! How much do you want? No country has more than 1!
                And the "objectivity" of the International Court of Justice in The Hague is well known!

                As I understand it, you are not satisfied with any court, well, probably only the courts of the Russian Federation ... they are just in this case "the most commonplace"!
                As for the Dutch District Court, I suppose that in vain everyone in the West (including you) rejoices at the upcoming condemnation of Russia!

                You are badly mistaken! I personally will NOT be happy at all if Russia is condemned! But from the very beginning I was puzzled by the confusion in the manifestations of Ross. of. faces.
                I'm not saying anything, but tell me honestly - do you admit that the Boeing could be shot down by mistake by the militia?
                1. 0
                  7 2021 June
                  Quote: pytar
                  As I understand it, you are not satisfied with any court, well, probably only the courts of the Russian Federation ... they are just in this case "the most commonplace"!
                  As for the Dutch District Court, I suppose that in vain everyone in the West (including you) rejoices at the upcoming condemnation of Russia!

                  You are badly mistaken! I personally will NOT be happy at all if Russia is condemned! But from the very beginning I was puzzled by the confusion in the manifestations of Ross. of. faces.
                  I'm not saying anything, but tell me honestly - do you admit that the Boeing could be shot down by mistake by the militia?

                  Yes, I believe that almost all courts in the West are NOT objective and very influenced by Russophobic politicians. And you, probably, are quite satisfied with the NOT righteous American courts, by whose decisions they judge the whole world, catch people all over the world and take them to the USA for punishment? Russian courts are NOT impeccable compared to American ones - heavenly fair. smile

                  No there is no confusion of Russian officials, but the journalists have made up pretty much and much.

                  The militias could not shoot down the Boeing in any way, neither by mistake nor intentionally. Just because they there was nothing to do this: one faulty launcher could not shoot down a high-flying plane in any way, and the militia did not have any aircraft. But the Armed Forces also had several batteries in full force in Donbass and aviation nearby, which were active (which Ukraine carefully hides) for several days before, and on the day of the destruction of the Boeing. They shot down, after which they launched a disinformation operation and quickly got out of the Donbass. And they hid all those involved, and some of the key ones are quietly killed.

                  About the participation of the Russians - in general, bullshit, in which only the authors themselves and the European fuckers believe.
                  1. +1
                    7 2021 June
                    Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                    About the participation of the Russians - in general, bullshit, in which only the authors themselves and the European fuckers believe.

                    good
                  2. -4
                    7 2021 June
                    Yes, I think that almost all courts in the West are NOT objective and are very susceptible to the influence of Russophobic politicians ... Russian courts are NOT impeccable compared to American ones - heavenly fair.

                    Well, if you think so, in truth we have nothing to talk about.
                    There is no confusion of Russian officials, but the journalists have made up quite a lot.

                    Journalists, this is one thing, but when the Ministry of Defense says that about the Su-25, that about the MiG-29, which are Ross. the radars "fixed" on the approach to the Boeing, and then suddenly "forgets" what they said yesterday, this causes it to happen ...
                    The militias could not shoot down the Boeing in any way, neither by mistake nor intentionally. Simply because they had nothing to do this: one faulty launcher could not shoot down a high-flying plane in any way, and the militia did not have any aircraft.

                    And after all, they shot down more than one Ukrainian plane! Therefore, the Ukrainian aviation began to rise higher and higher, and the militia began to shoot them down higher and higher ...
                    About the participation of the Russians - in general, bullshit, in which only the authors themselves and the European fuckers believe.

                    No comments. Who are the suckers, I think every intelligent person will guess.
                    1. -1
                      8 2021 June
                      Quote: pytar
                      No comments. Who are the suckers, I think every intelligent person will guess.

                      Boyan, I am watching with interest your anti-Russian, sometimes Russophobic "intelligent" activities in VO. Always willingly supporting all critics and critics of Russia's shortcomings, you have earned yourself the rank of general from the naive people grateful for their support. But, lately, your ill-concealed attempts to cheat on Russia and the Russians have almost always failed: they have figured out and know you. But you stubbornly (someone will say: stupidly bullish) continue your attempts to "enlighten" the participants in the VO about the backwardness of Russia, the meanness of Russians and the beautiful honest West. What for? Are you a masochist? Or do you get paid for it at work? You should go to Ukrainian patriotic sites, they will appreciate you there. As anyone, but to me - it's funny. laughing
                      1. -1
                        8 2021 June
                        Vladimir, I'll tell you how it is! Believe it or not! Yes In real life, I am a convinced Russophile. From childhood and ancestral tradition. Half of the family is Russian. But you and I / and a certain category of members of the forum / understand the very concept of Russophile in different ways! I believe that a true Russophile patriot should mercilessly criticize shortcomings and speak the truth in his eyes!

                        Hurray-patriot perceive it as Russophobia, but they are mistaken. If we translate into engineering and technical language, you will not create anything good if you do not criticize the flaws of the project and do not take an example even from your opponents when they do something better than you! Carries his successes, the action is the same stupid, as well as diminish the successes of competitors! Among Russians, as well as among all other nations, there are different people! This is normal. Some people think this approach is constructive, but some don't like it. On Ukrainian forums I am considered a Russophile and many react aggressively. I always express my personal opinion, I also respect any other opinion. I try not to go over to personalities, as many here allow themselves. In life, I am an accomplished person for a long time, I do not care about any virtual general ranks. lol I think it is useful that there are different opinions on VO, although they are sometimes banned, and there are enough minus players. bully
                        Russia and all Russians, I wish you success, a peaceful sky and wisdom! She is just needed, in difficult times, like the present! hi
                        1. -2
                          8 2021 June
                          Quote: pytar
                          Believe it or not!

                          I do not believe. Criticism is NOT criticism at all, and certainly not Russophobia / propaganda of the West / Western "values". Before making a conclusion, I looked closely. Conclusion: a Russophobe and an enemy disguised as a benevolent critic.

                          All clever enemies disguise themselves as benevolent critics. Unfortunately, many people DO NOT understand this.
                        2. -1
                          8 2021 June
                          Your business. I consider the real enemies of Russia, those who deny the facts, looking at them point-blank at the same time. Especially different categories of urya-propagandists, even though they have such a job. If a person / country / admits their mistakes, they will retain their dignity, and if they lie, they do not command respect. We have a saying: "Recognize gry, not e gry." hi
                        3. -2
                          8 2021 June
                          Paracelsus: "Everything is poison and everything is medicine. Only the dose makes the medicine poison and poison the medicine."
                          Anyone who wants to harm should do it more subtly and more believable. smile
                        4. -1
                          8 2021 June
                          Anyone who wants to harm should do it more subtly and more believable.

                          Anyone who wants to harm, let him do so. Yes
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. +1
              7 2021 June
              Tell me why the SBU, the next day or even the same, threw cheap fake videos with BUKs into the network? If they have nothing to do with it, why did they make these blanks then?
              1. -2
                7 2021 June
                I do not know what video was dropped by the SBU, but in the evening of July 17.07.2014, 26 on the TV channel the militia showed a video report of how they, the militia, shot down an "Ukrainian transport aircraft An-17" near Torez, to Snezhnoe. The report was also shown on Russian TV channels. Then they removed it when it became clear that MHXNUMX had been shot down.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEnlBjtSME8
                1. 0
                  8 2021 June
                  Three four videos are allegedly carried around Donbas like a beech, these videos have been seen by everyone who is a little bit interested in this disaster. They were thrown into the network from a prepared tweeter account, almost immediately after the disaster.
                  1. -1
                    8 2021 June
                    Three four videos are allegedly carried around Donbas like a beech, these videos have been seen by everyone who is a little bit interested in this disaster. They were thrown into the network from a prepared tweeter account, almost immediately after the disaster.

                    Quite possible! But this does not mean that the videos are fake! And that in Snizhne there was no Buk of the militia, which shot down the Boeing. Topographic location allows you to trace almost the entire route of the ill-fated air defense system. I am sure there were quite a few Ukrainian spies in Donbas, as well as ordinary witnesses who filmed this Buk along the route. In the age of the Internet, everyone who shoots something on a smartphone immediately pushes it onto the Internet! And the Ukrainian intelligence, of course, monitors all kinds of infa 24 hours a day! hi
                2. 0
                  8 2021 June
                  Why did they decide that it was an 26? Because they were leaked false information. They could not determine what kind of plane.
                  1. -1
                    8 2021 June
                    Why did they decide that it was an 26? Because they were leaked false information. They could not determine what kind of plane.

                    That is, the militias really shot down the plane in this area, on the same day and hour, but they thought that he was an An-26 Ukrainian transporter. It turned out that it was Boeing ... you keep saying, "they have been leaked with false information"! It may well be so. Yes
        3. +5
          7 2021 June
          if I'm not mistaken, then Russia does not recognize the jurisdiction of the Hague International Court, and now it is clear why :)
          it's like a circus where everyone left, but the clowns stayed :)
          1. +2
            7 2021 June
            This is an ordinary local Dutch district court, not international. In fact, the crime was committed on the territory of Ukraine, so there are many questions with the choice of the court.
        4. +1
          7 2021 June
          The author of the text is found as a certain matveychev_oleg
          https://matveychev-oleg.livejournal.com/4928679.html
          But he writes on behalf of a woman.
          Are you serious about this?
          1. -2
            7 2021 June
            Transgender?
        5. 0
          7 2021 June
          What "apartment is 60 meters" ?!
          Are you sure you are writing about the Hague Tribunal, officially called the "International Court of Justice"?
          There is no point in commenting on the rest of the heresy. Passage for collective farmers, who did not even take a queue for jurisprudence.
        6. +1
          7 2021 June
          Quote: Clear
          So do not mention The Hague in vain in front of me. Brrrr!

          good
          According to the photo:
          What kind of judges? What kind of faces?
          Shame has gathered there.
          Three (it could be that way)
          They won't open their mouths at all.
          Red-faced with yellow-faced
          Blue whiting poisoned.
          The person on the left, with an important look
          Picks his nose.
          This audience has forgotten
          We swear an oath of honesty.
          And in the picture, the third from the right
          Going to burp ...
          laughing
      3. +4
        7 2021 June
        As they say, if you failed to take the place of the judge, you can always take the place of the defendant! laughing
      4. +2
        7 2021 June
        Quote: poputchik
        thimblers their name and surname

        Moreover, they are crooked, but at the same time arrogant.
      5. 0
        7 2021 June
        This is such blackmail, and for everyone involved.

        1. For Ukraine. The investigation and the "court" (exclusively in quotation marks, one might say, the trial) know and have evidence of guilt. Non-closed airspace, at least, the ownership of the rocket is established and documented. The rocket developer's conclusions and the Almaz-Antey field experiment are also available, eyewitness accounts, telemetry recordings from Russian radars ...
        That is, it is a tool for keeping the Ukrainian leadership in fear and on a short leash. Not only Zelensky, but also influential Poroshenko and Turchinov and the political forces they control.

        2. For Russia. In the absence of direct fault of the Russian Federation in this event, the first real sanctions were introduced after Boeing. That is, the accusation of Ukraine is a pretext for their partial withdrawal. And the accusation of Russia is a pretext for introducing new and further demonizing the image of our country. Here "carrot and stick".

        3. For Malaysia. The Malaysian leadership has repeatedly expressed dissatisfaction with the one-sided and dishonest position of the investigation. They independently lost 2 of these Boeings, this is a great national tragedy that has both public and political resonance. This is a lever for pressure on the country's leadership, like "salt on a wound."

        4. For US and EU. For them, this process is a political arm-twisting tool. But there are also risks - after all, if Russia is recognized as innocent, then how can the economic losses from sanctions and restrictions be justified? But what if Biden or the next one decides to play better relations? Then they can recognize Russia as innocent and lift some of the sanctions, shifting the blame onto Ukraine. The instrument of this "judgment" ...
        1. -6
          7 2021 June
          have evidence of guilt. Non-closed airspace

          An investigation into open airspace over eastern Ukraine on the day the Malaysian Boeing 777 was shot down in 2014 has been closed. This decision was made by the Netherlands after the report of the Aviation Safety Fund. This was reported by RIA Novosti with reference to the government of the kingdom.

          Experts checked 34 cases of civil aircraft crashes that occurred in the zone of military conflicts. One of the key findings of the study was the explanation of Kiev's actions.

          As indicated in the report, the Ukrainian authorities could not have known the real threat to civil aviation at the altitude where the liner was hit by the missile. The fund also noted that the Russian aviation authorities, who were responsible for security in the zones adjacent to the conflict, were not aware of the possibility of an attack on passenger airliners.
          1. -1
            7 2021 June
            Quote: Avior
            Non-closed airspace

            An investigation into open airspace over eastern Ukraine on the day the Malaysian Boeing 777 was shot down in 2014 has been closed. This decision was made by the Netherlands after the report of the Aviation Safety Fund. This was reported by RIA Novosti with reference to the government of the kingdom.

            for the fact 5 minuses without arguments.
            soon news will be written only by those that like the patriots cheers .. Those that do not like or do not like, but true - they will simply not go on the air.
            The era of consuming only "good news"
            in the meantime, consumers are increasingly making it a reality.
            1. +1
              7 2021 June
              this is a group of miners from among Lukashenka's supporters. There is nothing to argue, but the truth disturbs people :(
              I wrote a long time ago that the ability to minus should be limited by a certain limit of minuses and pluses.
      6. +3
        7 2021 June
        Let them begin by recording the negotiations of the Ukrainian dispatchers.
        1. +4
          7 2021 June
          Most likely, there are no more records as of the dispatcher, as well as the pilot of the attack aircraft, as well as the operator of the beech.
        2. 0
          7 2021 June
          Quote: vkl.47
          Let them begin by recording the negotiations of the Ukrainian dispatchers.


          these or what?
          there is nothing special about them. the same ones were provided by Rostov dispatchers and black boxes.
          (I wonder how many disadvantages can you get for such a fact?)
    2. +9
      7 2021 June
      This is not a trial; a trial with elements of farce and hypocrisy - they have appointed those guilty for themselves seven years ago.
    3. 0
      7 2021 June
      The trial in The Hague will last until the end of the next Maidan in Ukraine, the exact date of which is not yet known.
      After this Maidan, the perpetrators and details of the death of MH-17 will be established quickly, convincingly and unambiguously.
      It remains to wait for the next Maidan.
    4. +3
      7 2021 June
      The court is engaged and the devil knows what the investigation is. Soon there will be no witnesses - just by age ... wassat
    5. +2
      7 2021 June
      "The court starts hearing the MH17 case on the merits"
      It took seven years to finally and "essentially". Here is just something suggests that this "essentially" has long been defined by the Anglo-Saxons and has nothing to do with objectivity and justice.
      1. +1
        7 2021 June
        Quote: rotmistr60
        It took seven years to finally and "essentially".

        Just enough to come up with new evidence of the guilt of the New Russia militias.
    6. 0
      7 2021 June
      I will laugh if they make the extremists - chubaty. ) Although, I hardly believe in it.
      1. +2
        7 2021 June

        Andrey Nikolaevich (Andrey. Nikolaevich)
        Today, 10: 09
        NEW
        0
        I will laugh if they make an extreme chubatyh. ) Although, I hardly believe in it.
        They are still in the cage with the Merikatos, like those judges. So it is unlikely.
    7. -7
      7 2021 June
      Are the judges experts in aviation and its technical features?

      Strange question! Judges are not experts, for example, in the field of road accidents or fires, but business is ongoing! Technical expertise is prepared by experts in the relevant areas! This is how every court works! Unfortunately, the expertise made by the Almaz-Antey specialists, which, in theory, was supposed to refute the charges, proved in essence the opposite - the rocket flew from the direction of Snezhnoye, from a place under the control of the militia!
      1. nnm
        +4
        7 2021 June
        1. Colleague, you probably misunderstood the meaning of what was written. Using your analogy, judges, when considering cases of fires and accidents, do not go to the scene of an accident or fire themselves, but review the conclusions of authorized experts in court sessions.
        2. Your conclusions are strange according to the Almaz-Antey expertise. Apparently on rollers from the non-brotherly YouTube segment. And if we return specifically to the facts, then it is better to familiarize yourself with the essence of the testimony of the concern's expert, given by him last year to the investigation against Pulatov.
        1. -9
          7 2021 June
          Using your analogy, judges, when considering cases of fires and accidents, do not go to the scene of an accident or fire themselves, but review the conclusions of authorized experts in court sessions.

          Kolega, this is not entirely true! I speak on the basis of my expert experience, with over 20 years of forensic expertise! In addition, I have relatives, a judge, a prosecutor and an investigator! In my practice, it has happened many times that the judge, in addition to listening to the courtroom, also appointed an ogled to the place of the obyekt, which is the subject of an examination, in the presence of experts, a prosecutor and lawyers. There, the expert gives explanations in connection with his conclusion, answers questions, as a result, he can receive an additional task! Everything is done with the aim of ensuring that the participants in the trial receive maximum clarity! It depends on the specifics of the case. In short, normal practice, I don't know how you are ?!
          Apparently on rollers from the non-brotherly YouTube segment. And if we return specifically to the facts, then it is better to familiarize yourself with the essence of the testimony of the concern's expert, given by him last year to the investigation against Pulatov.

          Since the court is faced with the task of drawing conclusions based on facts, the content itself is more important than where one or the other information comes from. I am personally embarrassed by that series of mutually contradictory hardenings emanating from the Russian Federation. If we look chronologically, one cannot fail to notice the confusion emanating from them. I do not intend to argue with you on the details, I am not a party to this dispute. I am only talking about my impressions, without claiming to be "first instance", reading / looking at both Russian and other media and statements of the office. faces. hi
      2. +1
        7 2021 June
        what about the inverter number of the engine?
        1. -3
          7 2021 June
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          what about the inverter number of the engine?

          Considered in court. We found inconsistencies between documents and material evidence, for example, the build date:



          1. 0
            7 2021 June
            and what is not a coincidence?
            1. 0
              7 2021 June
              build date is different in docs
              1. +2
                7 2021 June
                in the dock, not the build date, but the date of the signature on the documents
                1. -4
                  7 2021 June
                  The representative of the Ministry of Defense, who presented these documents at the official press conference, disagrees with you, and he said in plain text what this date means in the documents. On video starting at 4:13

                  1. -1
                    7 2021 June
                    AND IN WHAT PLACE DOES HE DO NOT AGREE? !!!
                    specify the time on the video
                  2. -1
                    7 2021 June
                    answer a direct question or limit yourself to a minus
                    1. -5
                      7 2021 June
                      This is not a "direct question", but pretending to be a fool. That a question for a comment, which indicates the time, "where is the time", that a question for a comment, in which two mismatched dates are highlighted, "where is the mismatch". My idea is formulated quite clearly. There is an objection - I will answer. There is no objection - sorry, I am not interested in such a conversation.
                      1. 0
                        7 2021 June
                        Quote: military_cat
                        This is not a "direct question", but pretending to be a fool.

                        I understand that you have never signed a single accompanying document in your life
                        again, the document contains the signing date, the assembly date on the nameplate
                        inconsistencies NO
                        1. -3
                          7 2021 June
                          I have already answered this above. The time at which this date is discussed at the press conference is indicated.
                        2. -1
                          7 2021 June
                          listen carefully and don't waste my time
                2. -4
                  7 2021 June
                  build date written
                  in the documents - a certificate of assembly.
                  there can be no discrepancies, otherwise it turns out that there was an ownerless rocket for 9 days
                  1. +1
                    7 2021 June
                    Quote: Avior
                    build date written

                    where is the build date written?
                    Quote: Avior
                    there can be no discrepancies, otherwise it turns out that there was an ownerless rocket for 9 days

                    who told you such nonsense ?!
                    after assembly, the product still goes through a lot of instances and checks, and only after that documents of readiness are drawn up on it, have they not paid attention to the customer's representative, or do you think the representative is standing at the end of the conveyor and waiting for the product?
                    1. -3
                      7 2021 June
                      where is the build date written?

                      stamp on the case - see the photo.
                      after assembly, the product still goes through a lot of instances and checks

                      it is written in black and white that the signatures under the certificate are specifically about the assembly
                      Collected, stamped and signed the certificate of assembly - everything is as it should be
                      only with dates the bobble came out
                      1. +2
                        7 2021 June
                        Quote: Avior
                        stamp on the case - see the photo.

                        I do not argue with that, they put together the build date
                        Quote: Avior
                        it is written in black and white that the signatures under the certificate are specifically about the assembly
                        Collected

                        yes, about the assembly of the product, not the assembly date
                        the product was assembled, the nameplate was stamped, then it was sent to the stand for testing and verification, after all the procedures, documents are signed, including the receiving party
                        have you ever worked on production? !!!!
                        1. -3
                          7 2021 June
                          I worked at a large military plant back in Soviet times.
                          The date of assembly was set as the day of assembly, which is in the documents, which is on the case, and the date of testing is separately, in a separate certificate.
                          what is seen in the discrepancy on the body and in the documents is an obvious blunder, there must be an identity
                        2. 0
                          7 2021 June
                          Did you have a customer representative at each assembly? !!
                          don't tell anyone
                        3. -1
                          7 2021 June
                          you are not funny
                          without paper on the completion of the assembly, the product from the workshop did not go for testing, at the same time they put a stamp on the assembly date
                          have you seen otherwise? They put a stamp, and handed it over to testing or to a warehouse, and then the people will run in to sign, when the time will be? most is not funny to write such absurdities?
                          I see no reason to argue with you, you do not understand what you are writing about.
                        4. 0
                          8 2021 June
                          Quote: Avior
                          without paper on the completion of the assembly, the product from the workshop did not go for testing

                          signed by the customer?
                          Quote: Avior
                          They put a stamp, and handed it over to testing or to a warehouse, and then the people will run in to sign, when the time will be?

                          do you understand what they write to you ?!
                        5. -3
                          8 2021 June
                          I understand, you're just fooling me.
                          In fact, you have not written in any of the posts that the stamp on the date of the end of the assembly and the document confirming this can be drawn up at different times.
                          Obviously, this is nonsense, and this never happened - that the papers on the product had one assembly date, and another was indicated on the product itself.
                          If you can prove that it was real, as you claim, provide such evidence, otherwise this empty discussion has dragged on.
                        6. +1
                          8 2021 June
                          can you show me in the documents the inscription DATE OF ASSEMBLY ?!
                        7. -2
                          8 2021 June
                          if you are not satisfied with the date on the "build certificate" and you do not consider it a build date, show me a document that specifically states the "build date".
                          Unless, of course, you insist that this date is not recorded in the documents at all.
                        8. 0
                          8 2021 June
                          again, where in the above document indicates that this is the build date?
                        9. 0
                          8 2021 June
                          Once again, can you write in which document, in your opinion, the build date is indicated in the form that you are seeking from me?
      3. +2
        7 2021 June
        and you can find out the length of service, this "eksperDa" from the Parnassus party, in aviation who where how much when?
        when you find his biography, I think you will stop spreading this raving
        1. -5
          7 2021 June
          Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
          when you find his biography, I think you will stop spreading this raving

          You know, the essence of information, its factology is also important! Let me give you an example: If about a person you DO NOT trust says that 2 + 2 = 4, will you deny? How do you react if a person you trust starts repeating that 2 + 2 = 5? request
          1. +3
            7 2021 June
            Quote: pytar
            You know, the essence of the information, its factology, is also important!

            when the electrician begins to talk about the correctness of the appendectomy, then I am not interested in either the facts or this information itself
            Quote: pytar
            If about a person you DO NOT trust says that 2 + 2 = 4, will you deny?

            we know all the arithmetic, even the victims of the exam, albeit at the initial level, but the questions of how, where and where the rocket flew from is not 2x2
            although here it is possible to argue depending on from what point of view to solve this problem
            1. -4
              7 2021 June
              although here it is possible to argue depending on from what point of view to solve this problem

              In fact, the blown off "Almaz-Antey" examination confirms the allegations of the prosecution. When two opposing sides reach the same output, it already means a lot ... bully
              1. +2
                7 2021 June
                Quote: pytar
                In fact, the examination blown off "Almaz-Antey"

                can you give a link to the approval of the representative of Almaz-Antey?
                1. -4
                  7 2021 June
                  can you give a link to the approval of the representative of Almaz-Antey?

                  Link to the previous comment. If you are not satisfied with Vadim Lukashevich's video, you can watch the one:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68skm_Zfchk
                  What is the essence of Almaz-Antey hardening? To summarize, based on the location of the inlet-outlet holes, you can calculate the angle at which the rocket flew, and from there the launch site!

                  That is, according to the correct statement of Almaz-Antey if not / or there are few of them / holes on the opposite bottom side of the case, then the angle indicates the launch from the territory of the Ukrainian military. So, it is down there that there is a concentration of span striking elements and debris embossed of internal elements by the cockpit. They were examined by a judge and lawyers. This confirms the fact that the rocket was approaching at a different angle / with yellow / and in the direction from the side of Snezhnoye. The conclusions of Almaz-Antey were provided by the court, they are evidence in the case. They prove exactly what AA denies.
                  https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/11479937?fbclid=IwAR1Ptw-qiPiLMq2W_tQ1iNEEEhfS5_Hy-RI6ucCNi7ePMW4NrARqtk2VoVo
      4. +4
        7 2021 June
        Boyan, stop playing accordion!
        1. -6
          7 2021 June
          Boyan, stop playing accordion!

          Vyacheslav, I will tell you one "secret"! In the world, few doubt that the ill-fated Boeing was shot down by the militia. By mistake, this unfortunately happens in war. Many in the Russian Federation also think so. I am not a party to this debate, but I find it useful to look at all points of view. hi
          1. +3
            7 2021 June
            Boyan, I will tell you one "secret", in Europe few people doubt that the women who were burned at the stake were witches. wink
            1. -4
              7 2021 June
              Boyan, I will tell you one "secret", in Europe few people doubt that the women who were burned at the stake were witches.

              Since you and I began to reveal secrets, I will say that this happened in Russia! You can search for info in Yandex for example. People fall into delusions, but we'll see who is mistaken in the case of MH17. hi
              1. -1
                7 2021 June
                Quote: pytar
                but we will see who is mistaken in the case of MH17.

                Of course we'll see ... As soon as the right side of the fuselage is attached to the model ... Together with the skin ...
                You would, Mr. Boyan, recall the last cases (after 1983), when civil aircraft were shot down in the USSR or in the Russian Federation ... And Ukraine distinguished itself in this literally twenty years ago in full "glory".
                The main argument for accusing Russia is that it has money to pay compensation to relatives and airlines. It is problematic to get it from Ukraine. They cannot pay off their debts (some $ 3 billion), but here ...
                1. -3
                  7 2021 June
                  Of course we'll see ... As soon as the right side of the fuselage is attached to the model ... Together with the skin ...

                  Well, as I understand it, this part was installed and it was she who was examined.
                  You would, Mr. Boyan, recall the last cases (after 1983), when civil aircraft were shot down in the USSR or in the Russian Federation ...

                  A well-mentioned incident in 1983 proves that no one is immune from fatal mistakes! Even the Air Force and Air Defense of the USSR! I remember, and then denied! And the situation in Donbass in 2015 was much more complicated! Moving away from the Gaga litigation, let's just think about it! In the case of MH17, there are 2 main versions:
                  1.A provocation or mistake on the part of the Ukrainian air defense.
                  The version is unlikely. Such a risky provocation does not guarantee success. Too much risk will be highlighted. A mistake is also unlikely, since the militia does not have an air force.
                  2. An error on the part of the militia, who mistook the Boeing for a Ukrainian air target.
                  In the meantime, the Ukrainian Air Force was beating the militia, and those on their side tried / often successfully / fought back using more and more powerful air defense! Fighters fighting day and night, in a state of extreme stress and lack of information, because they could shoot on error!
                  During the Iraqi campaign, the United States had more losses from "friendly fire" than from the enemy! Mistakes in war are far more common than we might imagine!
          2. 0
            7 2021 June
            Quote: pytar
            Many in the Russian Federation also think so.

            one, two, many?
            1. -6
              7 2021 June
              one, two, many?

              I came across a poll according to which, only 3% of residents of the Russian Federation believe that MH17 was shot down by militiamen. With all that, we are talking about ~ 4,5 million people! From a psychological point of view, it is understandable why the majority of citizens of the Russian Federation do not accept the possibility that the plane could have been shot down by militias. On the one hand, propaganda is doing everything possible, instilling opinions about the innocence of "ours". On the other hand, it is difficult for a person to accept the fact that his loved ones could have done this, albeit by mistake. It must be admitted that, unfortunately, everyone makes mistakes. Especially in an extreme situation! Nobody is insured. hi
              1. +1
                7 2021 June
                Quote: pytar
                With all that, we are talking about ~ 4,5 million people!

                it is clear, this is not about millions, but about statistics
                1. -4
                  7 2021 June
                  it is clear, this is not about millions, but about statistics

                  Vyacheslav, you don't even have statistics. Yes
                  1. 0
                    7 2021 June
                    maybe the slave has no statistics, of course, but to say after the fact of the social survey that 4 people believe in something is ridiculous, by the way, who conducted the social survey
                    1. -3
                      7 2021 June
                      I beg your pardon, Vladimir, I confused the name, I also corresponded with Vyacheslav. hi
                      maybe the slave has no statistics, of course, but to say after the fact of the social survey that 4 people believe in something is ridiculous, by the way, who conducted the social survey

                      I found where I read it:
                      https://www.mk.ru/social/2014/07/30/vinovata-ukraina-rossiyane-uvereny-chto-malayziyskiy-boing-sbil-kiev.html
                      2014 Levada Center.
                      By the way, VTsIOM in 2016 gives a figure of 4%.
                      http://xexe.club/148893-vciom-tolko-4-rossiyan-veryat-chto-boing-mh17-sbili-opolchency.html
                      1. +1
                        7 2021 June
                        Quote: pytar
                        https://www.mk.ru http://xexe.club

                        that's enough not to read further
                        1. -2
                          7 2021 June
                          that's enough not to read further

                          Here are the direct links:
                          https://www.levada.ru/2015/07/27/rassledovanie-katastrofy-boinga/
                          https://www.levada.ru/2020/02/26/dve-aviakatastrofy/
                          Levada - in 2015 it was 3%, and in 2019-2020 it was already 6%.
                          https://wciom.ru/analytical-reviews/analiticheskii-obzor/malazijskij-boing-rassledovanie-kto-vinovat-i-chego-zhdat-rossii
                          VTsIOM 2016 - 4%
                          By the way, the following table from the survey is interesting:


                        2. -1
                          7 2021 June
                          and if there was no mistake, why admit it?
                          once again, polls are NOTHING
                        3. -2
                          7 2021 June
                          and if there was no mistake, why admit it?

                          You know ... the fact is that they have already recognized ... On the evening of 17.07.2015/XNUMX/XNUMX
                        4. +1
                          8 2021 June
                          Quote: pytar
                          By the way, the following table from the survey is interesting
                          For what reason? The survey was conducted on the specific situation with Iran. In that case, the answer about admitting the mistake and guilt of Iran as evidence of its strength was the most frequent. You are trying to pull him into a different situation. Maybe the Bulgarians shot down the Boeing? If the Bulgarian government rejected such an accusation, and this survey was conducted in your country, would the refusal to admit his guilt testify to the strength or weakness of your state?
                        5. -1
                          8 2021 June
                          For what reason? The survey was conducted on the specific situation with Iran. In that case, the answer about the admission of error and guilt

                          The question is of principle. The answer can be safely attributed to other similar cases.
                          If the Bulgarian government rejected such an accusation, and this survey was conducted in your country, would the refusal to admit his guilt testify to the strength or weakness of your state?

                          Unfortunately, a similar tragic incident took place in our country on July 27, 1955. The aircraft Lockheed L-049 (L-149) of the Israeli airline El Al was shot down by mistake. 58 people were killed. The Bulgarian / authoritarian then / authorities initially put forward a version of the accident, but then, during the investigation, they pleaded guilty, made an official apology and paid compensation to the families of the victims. Both military pilots / MiG-15 / were convicted.
                        6. 0
                          8 2021 June
                          Quote: pytar
                          The Bulgarian / authoritarian then / authorities initially put forward a version of the accident, but later, during the investigation, they pleaded guilty,
                          The question was asked not about a mistake similar to the Iranians by the Bulgarian military, but about the possible false accusation of Bulgaria in the situation with flight MH-17. You, as I see it, have joined the unsubstantiated accusations of the LPNR and Russian militias. The fact that these accusations are unsubstantiated, the perpetrators were appointed in advance and the investigation is being conducted in a "strange way," said not Putin, but Malaysian Prime Minister Mohamad Mahathir back in 2019.
                        7. -1
                          8 2021 June
                          You, as I see it, have joined the unsubstantiated accusations of the LPNR and Russian militias.

                          If we compare them with the Russian "evidence" about Ukraine's involvement, then there are simply no such ones! From the word at all! I was more alarmed by the fact that in the Russian Federation they put forward one mutually contradictory thesis for another. And logically, the probability that the Boeing was shot down by mistake by the militia is several times higher!
                          The fact that these accusations are unsubstantiated, the perpetrators were appointed in advance and the investigation is being conducted in a "strange way," said not Putin, but Malaysian Prime Minister Mohamad Mahathir back in 2019.

                          If you have followed the trial, you would have known that in a separate hearing, the prosecution presented a discounted analysis of the defamatory and propaganda measures that were carried out by Ross. authorities around the world, including various kinds of statements by foreign politicians.
                          The same Mohamad Mahathir, old graters from the Dutch! In 2007, there was a scandal with the anti-Islamist Holand film "Fitna". The PIP delivered a letter to the Dutch embassy warning that the film would "provoke revenge" and, together with then-President Mohamad Mahathir, called for a worldwide Muslim boycott of Dutch goods. He then said: "If 1,3 billion Muslims of the world unite and say they will not buy, then the boycott will be effective." A series of anti-Dutch manifestations took place in Malaysia, during which Mohamad Mahatir was very active.
      5. +1
        7 2021 June
        You have to think about when and what kind of expertise to appoint. And be able to formulate questions to experts - correctly and with a vision, the prospects of the conclusion. Every lawyer will tell you this. But this is only one side of the coin. Considering that at that moment, a complete mess was going on in Donbass, it is not clear who and where was, then the fact that they were shooting from Snezhnoye is not absolute proof. The dispatcher and the person who pressed the start button are two iron and indisputable proofs, for all times. And these people are not and never will be. And as they say, “there is no court, no, And let the Dutch sprinkle even saliva, even in the courtroom, copulate, out of anger, DO NOT SPIT. No proof! Thanks to all. Everybody's Free. Cynical but practical.
        1. -2
          7 2021 June
          Considering that at that moment, a complete mess was going on in Donbass - it is not clear who and where was, then the fact that they were shooting from the direction of Snezhnoye is not an absolute proof.

          Here you are absolutely right! good The investigation, the prosecutor's office, the court work this way. 1. Establish where and with what the launch was carried out - Snezhnoe, Buk air defense missile system. 2. Who currently owned this territory? 3.What persons are involved, etc ...
          The dispatcher and the person who pressed the start button are two iron and indisputable proofs, for all times. And these people are not and never will be.

          If you / God forbid / get into an accident and run away from the scene, you will probably still be able to identify if you left traces.
          1. +3
            7 2021 June
            Thank you, of course, but firstly, I hope not to violate the traffic rules, and secondly, I have no BUK. If suddenly it appears, then our valiant security officials, and so will find me and conduct an "educational conversation", at best.))
    8. +4
      7 2021 June
      essentially what ?!
      the wreckage was not collected, "facts" based on social networks
      1. +3
        7 2021 June
        Vladimir, at the end of winter I had to take our people to a court session in a landfill. What the court wanted to see there under the snow, I do not know. But, at least, it was possible to scoop up the snow with a foot and see if there is garbage or not. But what the Hague judges wanted to see on a piece of the fuselage is completely incomprehensible to me.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    9. -1
      7 2021 June
      In The Hague, the court begins hearing the case

      The District Court of The Hague takes place in Amsterdam, in a complex near Schiphol Airport
      1. 0
        7 2021 June
        Sergey, you are hinting that the next Boeing can be seized by terrorists and ...
    10. +6
      7 2021 June
      I remember another trial in the Hague
      1. 0
        8 2021 June
        If the head of government is not responsible for the actions of his army, then the driver who took him to work should be tried. Or who to judge?
        1. 0
          8 2021 June
          and for what he was tried? !!!!
          it is absolutely certain that it was not the actions of his army, or was it the Serbs who traded organs, kidnapped people, etc.
          1. -1
            8 2021 June
            Yes, not everyone was condemned. It is not right
    11. +1
      7 2021 June
      the longer the trial, the more the judge's salary
    12. 0
      7 2021 June
      There are many complaints about the trial and the investigation, but Russia amazes me, she never put down the facts of Ukraine's guilt, it's hard to believe that there are no records from military radars, is our entire South really a continuous hole?
    13. 0
      7 2021 June
      Russia needs to start a normal trial together with the relatives of those killed, otherwise this farce will never end.
      1. 0
        7 2021 June
        It will be difficult to do.
        The fact is that the relatives of the victims filed a lawsuit against Russia.
        Relatives of those killed in the MH17 crash file a lawsuit against Russia at the ECHR

        https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/3811051
        there are even several filed lawsuits
        1. 0
          7 2021 June
          With the sane for whom the truth is important and not cut down the dough.
          1. -1
            7 2021 June
            and where did you get the idea that the truth is not important to them?
            1. 0
              8 2021 June
              Because they want to believe in nonsense.
              1. -3
                8 2021 June
                this to you in the Ministry of Justice with arguments, let them explain everything, otherwise the money will be awarded to pay from the budget
    14. +2
      7 2021 June
      Here a couple of court problems arose and we need to solve them without doing it:
      1 It was quite easy to compose the version, but now it is necessary to formalize all this in a reliable legal form. The facts must beat
      2 The court has put its fate on the line, the credibility of the EU judicial system as a whole will depend on the outcome of the trial
      I suppose that there will be no decision, there will simply be endless revisions, due to newly discovered circumstances. It is possible that the court refuses to issue a verdict due to a weak evidence base.
      1. 0
        7 2021 June
        Quote: APASUS
        the results of the court will determine the credibility of the EU judicial system as a whole

        for me the trial in Serbia was enough
    15. -1
      7 2021 June
      Russia is in secret negotiations with countries whose citizens were killed in the crash of the Malaysian Boeing flight MH17 in Donbass. Alexey Venediktov, editor-in-chief of the Echo of Moscow radio station, told the Gordon edition about this.

      According to him, in this way Moscow demonstrates that no one decides to it. "There is talk about compensation and that the families of [the victims] take the claims," ​​Venediktov explained.
      1. -1
        7 2021 June
        Quote: Alex Widerkehr
        About this edition "Gordon"

        and one hundred for the publication is? !!!!
        I know the tabloid jaundiced site, they are squealing there as they breathe
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          8 2021 June
          I treat Venediktov in the same way as Solovyov, Kiselev, Karaulov, it's all one gang of watering cans. But he is constantly present at all events in the Kremlin. Perhaps he has information from his inner circle. And if he had lied, they would have taken him by the balls long ago. After all, the matter is much deeper if a decision is made that Russia. Then, following the example of the former Yugoslavia, one can find the main culprits.
          1. 0
            8 2021 June
            Quote: Alex Widerkehr
            Perhaps he has information from his inner circle. And if he had lied, they would have taken him by the balls long ago

            on his website lies every once in a while and he still does not fall into falsetto
    16. -2
      7 2021 June
      Will Lady Gaga sit in The Hague?))

      But in Russia everyone will say "Bugaga"))
    17. -2
      7 2021 June
      Well, what I wrote about 3 years ago.
      Lockerbies all remember?
      This is the scenario and everything will go!
      And any stuffing and wagging do not make sense.
      Everyone perfectly knows whose rocket and where.
      The further into unconsciousness, the harder the answer!
      These are realities.
      I catch and collect minus;)
      1. 0
        7 2021 June
        Quote: dgonni
        Everyone perfectly knows whose rocket and where.

        whose?
        where from ?!
    18. The comment was deleted.
    19. The comment was deleted.
    20. +1
      7 2021 June
      For cheers for patriots.
    21. +2
      8 2021 June
      "Are the judges experts in aviation and its technical features?" - the question is not stupid? Judges are never experts in any case. The judge is experts only in the field of law, for everything else, expert examinations are assigned.

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