Military Review

Combat aircraft. When unsuccessful in everything

59
Combat aircraft. When unsuccessful in everything

Not only was the plane simply awful in appearance, and in this regard, only the French, who had simply disgustingly masterpiece planes, could compete with it, he still could not fight, although he had all the chances.


We are talking about the Polish medium bomber R-30 "Zubr".

It so happened that the car initially and constructively turned out to be an erroneous project. That happens. Initially, the Poles went the German route, trying to create a kind of universal aircraft that could be used as a passenger, transport and military aircraft. But what Heinkel did just fine did not quite work out for Cholkosh, the chief designer of this nightmare.

In general, in the second half of the 30s, the Poles conceived the rearmament of their air forces. This led to the emergence of rather peculiar structures, on the conscience of which the not entirely successful participation in the Second World War.

No, one cannot say that the Polish Air Force did not take part at all. They were able to inflict some damage to the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, but, frankly, it cannot be called significant.

The development of the aircraft was outsourced to Państwowe Zakłady Lotnicze, PZL, an association of State aviation factories in Poland. Zbislav Cholkosh was appointed chief designer. Cholkosz was noted for the development of many aircraft models in Poland, then fled in time to the United States, where he devoted the rest of his life to work in the firm of Frank Pyasetsky, which produced helicopters.

At first, the new aircraft was planned as a civilian, but things were going so slowly that in the end the Polish Ministry of Aviation decided to buy a Douglas DC-2 from the Americans, and so that the project would not be lost, to give the developments in favor of the military.

The prototype PZL-30B passed the test cycle in the fall of 1936. As a result, 16 vehicles were ordered for the Polish Air Force. Export sales were also planned. Romania was to become the first potential customer. A special airplane show was organized for the Romanians.

The show ended in a nightmare. Affected by the insufficient strength of the structure, which led to the destruction of the wing. The plane crashed, killing three members of the Romanian delegation. Naturally, after that the purchase of the R-30 by Romania was dropped. The assembly of aircraft was also suspended for their own needs.

It must be said that the PZL were already loaded with work on the PZL P-23 "Karas" light bomber and the PZL P-37 "Los" medium bomber. These were rather promising designs for their time, in contrast to the P-30. Therefore, PZL quite successfully gave the project to LWS. Lubelska Wytwornia Samolotow, Lublin Aviation Plant.

The R-30 was originally an outdated project, with angular shapes like the French Amiot 143, Potez 540 or our TB-1. Not a masterpiece of grace and aerodynamics.


Potez 540


Amiot 143


TB-1

The aircraft was supposed to have powerful defensive weapons and carry up to 1200 kg of bomb load. Probably, it was these plans that made it possible to push the plane into service. The R-30 was supposed to combine the specializations of a bomber, a reconnaissance aircraft and a training aircraft for training crews.

Many countries worked on projects of a multipurpose universal aircraft of the "bomber-heavy fighter-reconnaissance" type. Some (Germans, Dutch) succeeded, the Poles also wanted to get such an aircraft at their disposal.

In addition, if the LWS "screwed up" the work on the R-30, then it could be replaced by the R-37 "Los", which was developed in parallel. Or vice versa.


The designer Jerzy Theisseir was appointed the immediate supervisor of the work. The designer and his team honestly tried to improve the design's capabilities, to enhance its strength characteristics, but little came of it. But the weight of the aircraft increased considerably, which made it necessary to reduce the practical bomb load.

The aircraft's combat effectiveness became highly questionable.

The main problem is the engines. Initially installed motors from "Pratt & Whitney" "Wasp Juniors" gave out no more than 400 hp. each, because the test institute ITL (the Polish analogue of our TsAGI) recommended to install something more powerful, otherwise the plane had no chance of life at all.

The only thing that could be used was the licensed British Bristol "Pegasus" VIII with a capacity of 680 hp. With these engines, the Zubr became a little more like an airplane.


However, flight performance remained below all reasonable limits. Fuel tanks with a capacity of 1240 liters provided a range of 750 km at a cruising speed of 280 km / h, but the "highlight" of the R-30 was that it was impossible to take a full supply of fuel with a full bomb load. The plane simply did not take off the ground. With full tanks and without bombs, the plane could fly up to 1250 km, with bombs and a fuel supply of 750 liters - no more than 600 km.

So the only role the Zubr was good for was a training plane. The combat capability of the P-30 became more and more conventional. Although the LWS company did everything possible to ensure that the aircraft could not become a conventional combat-ready unit.

The manual cable retraction system was replaced by an electric one, the struts were retracted by turning into the engine nacelles.

The installation of a more powerful propeller group and the subsequent strengthening of the aircraft structure caused an increase in the aircraft mass by almost a ton.

It had to be strengthened precisely because of the incident with the Romanian delegation. Then, in November 1936, the Poles demonstrated the aircraft with new engines, without bothering to reinforce the structure. As a result, the wing came off, the car fell, burying the pilot engineer Rzhevnitsky, the technician Pantazi and two Romanian officers under the rubble.

According to the official version of the Poles, the tragedy was caused by the fact that one of the Romanian guests on board for some reason opened the emergency hatch, the door of which was unfastened from the fasteners and hit the screw. The resulting vibrations shook the entire structure, the engine "left" from the motor frame and hit the wing. As a result, the wing fell apart.

In fact, it was simply necessary to strengthen the structure after installing more powerful and heavier engines.

The wing, engine mountings, mountings were significantly reinforced. The classic PZL-30BII plumage was replaced with a two-fin one with washers at the ends of the stabilizer. This increased the mass by another 780 kg. Accordingly, the bomb load was reduced to 660 kg, almost half of the original calculations.

Meanwhile, the single-engine PZL-23 "Karas" took on board about the same load, flew about as slowly, but cost less, if only because of the single-engine layout. The PZL Р-37В "Los" was also cheaper than the "Zubr", but the "Zubr" did not promise higher flight characteristics.

The crew consisted of four people. The cockpit was located in a very original way, at the top of the fuselage, but asymmetrically, to the left of the center line. This gave an acceptable view and provided a passage between the bow and rear cockpits.

The defensive armament consisted of five 7,7 mm Vickers machine guns: two in the upper electric retractable turret turret, two in the front electrified turret and one in the lower fuselage hatch.




Serial "Bison" received the designation LWS-4A. Production aircraft differed from prototypes by the return of a single-fin tail unit, and the first 15 aircraft did not carry any weapons, because they were supposed to be used as training vehicles for training and retraining pilots.

The first months of Zubrov's operation revealed a huge number of shortcomings. The main headache was caused by the landing gear, which stubbornly did not want to get into the locks during release, which caused several accidents during belly landing.


Complaints and complaints were sent to the plant in Lublin. The factory workers dealt with the problem very quickly: they simply took and locked the landing gear in the extended position. The Zubr turned into an aircraft with a non-retractable landing gear, along the way, the problem of overloading the aircraft's electrical system, which lacked power, was resolved, and some devices had to be turned off to retract the landing gear.

But after such an intervention, the electrician stopped malfunctioning.

The Zubr served as a training aircraft for the Polish Air Force until the very beginning of the war. As a training aid for novice pilots, the PZL-30 / LWS-4A served until the outbreak of World War II. The car turned out to be very comfortable to fly and easy to operate.

But the beginning of the Second World War was the end of the career of this aircraft. The Germans managed to bomb almost all of the Zubrs, and several of the surviving LWS-4A were captured.

The zealous Germans, who did not throw away anything when they were born, found use even for these handsome men. Despite the absence of at least some acceptable flight characteristics, the Zubrs came in handy. They were used as training at the bomber training center in Schleisshain up to and including 1942. Then they wrote off.

One plane lived a little longer. It was the LWS-6 prototype that made it to the museum. And until 1945 he served in the aviation museum in Berlin as an exhibit. This "Zubr" was destroyed, like its colleagues, as a result of the American air raid in 1945. Together with the museum.

In general, the LWS-4A "Zubr" can serve as another proof of the postulate of Andrey Nikolaevich Tupolev that "Only beautiful airplanes can fly well."

LTH LWS-4A

Wingspan, m: 18,50
Length, m: 15,40
Height, m: 4,00
Wing area, м2: 49,50

Weight, kg
- empty aircraft: 4 751
- normal takeoff: 6 100
- maximum take-off: 6 800

Engine: 2 x Bristol Pegasus VIIIC x 680 hp
Maximum speed km / h: 320
Cruising speed, km / h: 280
Practical range, km: 750
Maximum rate of climb, m / min: 384
Practical ceiling, m: 6 200

Crew, prs: 4
Armament:
- two 7,7 mm machine guns in the nose turret;
- one 7,7 mm machine gun in the tail;
- bomb load 440-660 kg.
Author:
59 comments
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 04: 41
    -2
    Well, what a bad flight, but how beautiful! laughing

    I read that our designers looked at several successful solutions on the captured Polish bombers, in particular, metal strips instead of metal cables for wiring to the controls. But most likely we are talking about "Elks".
    1. Avis
      Avis 4 June 2021 06: 08
      +6
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      several successful solutions, in particular, metal strips instead of metal cables for wiring to the controls.

      What nonsense ...
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 06: 13
        0
        Quote: Avis
        What nonsense ...
        Justify!
        The decision was recognized as successful, since the cable wires were stretched, they broke off during combat damage, the tapes almost did not stretch and tolerated damage more easily. The war did not let us learn from the experience.
        1. Avis
          Avis 4 June 2021 08: 55
          +14
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Justify!

          No, first you will confirm your words that such a constructive solution was applied somewhere and that ours "recognized it as successful".
          The decision was recognized as successful, since the cable wires were stretched, they broke off during combat damage, the tapes almost did not stretch and tolerated damage more easily.

          If damaged, the tape will break in the same way as the cable. Or maybe even more: the cable consists of many threads, and the tape is only one of itself. As soon as the voltage concentrator gets into the hole, so consider her song sung.
          The war did not let him learn from the experience.

          What stopped after the war? :) Something like this until the very introduction of the tubular rods into the control wiring, the cables remained. And they are still used if they are doing soft wiring.
          And in general, using tapes instead of a cable is utter nonsense: the tape bends badly and you just can't put it through the roller, and with each movement of the controls, the tape on the roller will bend, and this is an inevitable break in the end. If you do it without bends, then rocking chairs are needed, and this is a complication and weighting of the structure.
          In short, nonsense.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 09: 18
            -10
            Quote: Avis
            In short, nonsense.

            Look for nonsense in your comments, for sure there is a lot of it.


            At the same time, the Poles managed to achieve a smooth and even surface of the metal cladding, which was often a stumbling block for domestic enterprises.

            In the control of the aircraft, steel belts were used instead of traditional cables. They turned out to be much less susceptible to deformation and, accordingly, did not require such frequent tightening of the joints.

            http://alternathistory.com/ispytano-v-sssr-srednij-bombardirovshhik-pzl-37-los/

            I remember exactly in terms of survivability, but I read it for a long time and in paper. It indicated the width of the belt as a positive factor compared to the cable.

            Quote: Avis
            the tape bends badly and you just can't put it through the roller, and with each movement of the controls, the tape on the roller will bend, and this is an inevitable break in the end.
            The fact that instead of rollers, rocking chairs could be used, as for the same tubular rods, did not come to mind?

            Quote: Avis
            What stopped after the war?
            I don’t know, maybe the transition to tubular rods and control boosting, or maybe it was simply forgotten against the background of much more significant events.
            1. Avis
              Avis 4 June 2021 09: 28
              +6
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Quote: Avis
              In short, nonsense.

              Look for nonsense in your comments, for sure there is a lot of it.

              Now you also write nonsense.
              interested in steel belts used instead of traditional cables. They turned out to be much less susceptible to deformations and, accordingly, did not require such frequent tightening of the joints.

              Well, they "got interested", nodded their heads, said "yes, a funny technical curiosity" and threw it out of my head, because there are more minuses than this single plus.

              I remember exactly in terms of survivability, but I read it for a long time and in paper. It indicated the width of the belt as a positive factor compared to the cable.

              Yeah, more likely to hit. :)
              The fact that instead of rollers, rocking chairs could be used, as for the same tubular rods, did not come to mind?

              And you haven't learned to read, it seems. I wrote about the rocking chair. Wipe your eyes.
              transition to tubular rods and control boosting is possible

              Aha-aha ... After the war, dozens of types of aircraft with soft wiring were produced. Even the An-22 has cables. The trim tabs on most non-powered aircraft are also cable operated. Yak-42, for example.
              can just forgot against the background of much more significant events.

              Himself is not funny?
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 10: 02
                -7
                Quote: Avis
                Now you also write nonsense.

                Stupidity in response to stupidity, quits.

                Quote: Avis
                Well, they "got interested", nodded their heads, said "yes, a funny technical curiosity" and threw it out of my head, because there are more minuses than this single plus.
                And this is your inventions.

                Quote: Avis
                Yeah, more likely to hit. :)
                There is less chance of breaking a wide strap compared to an equally wide strap.


                Quote: Avis
                And you haven't learned to read, it seems. I wrote about the rocking chair. Wipe your eyes.
                Great, get yourself a patent.
                Quote: Avis
                If you do it without bends, then rocking chairs are needed, and this is a complication and weighting of the structure.
                Maybe it will be a revelation for you, but cable wiring, including in ultra-light aircraft, is actively used with rockers.



                Quote: Avis
                maybe just forgotten against the background of much more significant events.
                Himself is not funny?
                No, it's not funny, a change in control thrust would lead to the redesign of already created aircraft, and the design of new ones, in view of the inevitable war, was based on proven solutions, and this is not counting the not very wide, to put it mildly, dissemination of test results and conclusions.
                1. Avis
                  Avis 4 June 2021 11: 46
                  +7
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Quote: Avis
                  Now you also write nonsense.

                  Stupidity in response to stupidity, quits.

                  Don't flatter yourself. So far, only you have written nonsense.
                  this is your fabrication.

                  These are facts. There are many minuses, and exactly one pluses.
                  There is less chance of breaking a wide strap compared to an equally wide strap.

                  What? Can you imagine the weight and strength of an "equal" cable? Conventional cables in the wiring have a diameter in the range of 5 ... 7mm. A tape of the same strength will be several centimeters wide (with a thickness of 1 ... 3mm).
                  Great, get yourself a patent.

                  You will apologize for the lie.
                  Maybe it will be a revelation for you, but cable wiring, including in ultra-light aircraft, is actively used with rockers.

                  :))) Come on, come on, examples on the barrel. You just do not know - the rocking cable is not needed simply by the property of the cable. The rocking chair is needed for traction because the thrust does not bend. The cable is simply wound onto the roller.
                  Quote: Avis
                  maybe just forgotten against the background of much more significant events.
                  Himself is not funny?
                  No not funny, change control rods

                  Oh, how they began to wag ... stern. :) What does the "change of thrust" have to do with it? I'm talking about "forgetfulness". This is the first thing. Second, what other "thrust changes" are there? In which aircraft do you anticipate these changes? Most importantly, I asked - why did not they do this tape wiring in the newly designed airplanes? Woo, fools, huh? The ropes were made, the rods were made, but the tapes were not.
                  designing new In mind inevitable the war

                  Are you really reading from drunken eyes? I asked clearly:
                  Quote: Avis
                  What stopped after the war?
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 16: 39
                    -6
                    Quote: Avis
                    Oh, how they began to wag ... stern.

                    To start:
                    Quote: Avis
                    No, first you will confirm your words that such a constructive solution was applied somewhere and that ours "recognized it as successful".
                    There was specific evidence for a specific question! Tapes were used instead of cables and this aroused interest, unsuccessful solutions do not cause interest.

                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    In the control of the aircraft, steel belts were used instead of traditional cables. They turned out to be much less susceptible to deformation and, accordingly, did not require such frequent tightening of the joints.
                    http://alternathistory.com/ispytano-v-sssr-srednij-bombardirovshhik-pzl-37-los/
                    And the rest of your claims are wagging your ass, your wagging your ass too!

                    Quote: Avis
                    What? Can you imagine the weight and strength of an "equal" cable? Conventional cables in the wiring have a diameter in the range of 5 ... 7mm. Conventional cables in the wiring have a diameter in the range of 5 ... 7mm. A tape of the same strength will be several centimeters wide (with a thickness of 1 ... 3mm).
                    Here it is to blame, by "equally wide" I meant an ordinary cable, not an oval, not rectangular, but an ordinary circular section and not a width / thickness with a tape, thickness and width unknown to me, but a typical diameter at that time. For your information, the steel packing tape 1,5 mm thick and 32 mm wide is comparable to the tensile strength of a 5 mm steel cable.


                    Quote: Avis
                    Great, get yourself a patent.
                    You will apologize for the lie.
                    What? They wrote about the rocking chair before me, well done, get yourself a patent. What's the lie?


                    Quote: Avis
                    Come on, come on, examples on the barrel. You just do not know - the rocking cable is not needed simply by the property of the cable. The rocking chair is needed for traction because the thrust does not bend. The cable simply starts onto the roller.


                    Near the command levers and when approaching the rudders, the wiring is usually made of rigid rods, and in the intervals, especially on straight and long sections, cables are laid.In the places where the rigid wiring transitions to the cable and vice versa, sectors are necessarily installed. An exception may be cases when the figure formed by cables and rockers, regardless of the angle of deflection of the switchgear, is a parallelogram.
                    Well, in the design of ultralight aircraft, ropes and rocking rods and thrust are used, and even all this at the same time.
                    And the wonderful cables are not that wonderful:
                    The advantage of flexible wiring is its low weight and ease of layout. The disadvantage is the wear of the cables in the places of bend on the rollers and their stretching. In addition, the cable routing is springy and, due to elastic deformation, gives the command levers a feeling of "elastic" play, which reduces the sensitivity of control.

                    https://pseudology.org/colonels/RaschetProektPostroika1991a.pdf


                    Quote: Avis
                    I asked clearly:
                    Quote: Avis
                    What stopped after the war?
                    If you are not satisfied with this already given answer, then go sleep it off, anyway there will be no other from me.

                    Quote: Vladimir_2U

                    I don’t know, maybe the transition to tubular rods and control boosting, or maybe it was simply forgotten against the background of much more significant events.
                    1. Avis
                      Avis 4 June 2021 19: 00
                      +2
                      [quote = Vladimir_2U] and that ours "recognized it as successful." [/ quote] Specific proof was given for a specific question! [/ quote]
                      The fact that it was applied somewhere was proved, but the question consisted of two parts.
                      [quote] this aroused interest, unsuccessful solutions are not of interest. [/ quote]
                      They call. Show "don't do it like that, son!". Successful solutions are not thrown into the trash can. Interest can be both a plus and a minus sign.
                      [quote] by "equally wide" meant an ordinary cable, not an oval, not rectangular, but an ordinary circular section and not a width / thickness with a tape, thickness and width unknown to me, but a typical diameter at that time. [/ quote]
                      What is this set of words? A tape with a width equal to the diameter of the cable (5 ... 7mm) will be weak, and a cable with a diameter of several centimeters will be too heavy and stiff.
                      [quote] 1,5 mm thick and 32 mm wide [/ quote]
                      CHTD. Read above about "Less likelihood of being killed". Can you imagine the ratio of belt width to cable diameter? No, alas.
                      [quote] Near the command levers and when approaching the rudders, the wiring is usually performed from rigid rods, and in the intervals, especially on straight and long sections, cables are laid. In the places where the rigid wiring transitions to the cable and back, sectors are necessarily installed. An exception may be cases when the figure formed by ropes and rockers, regardless of the angle of deviation of the switchgear, is a parallelogram. [/ Quote]
                      This is completely "from another opera". The rocking rods need traction for any change in direction, the cable only needs a roller, an order of magnitude simpler and lighter. You yourself do not understand what you are quoting. So, with examples of rocking rods in cable wiring, you gave a blast.
                      [quote] And wonderful cables are not that wonderful: [/ quote]
                      Who, besides you, considers them "wonderful"? Compared to ribbons - yes, definitely better.
                      [quote] The advantage of flexible wiring is its light weight and ease of layout. The disadvantage is the wear of the cables in places of bend on the rollers and their extension. In addition, the cable routing is springy and, due to elastic deformation, gives the command levers a feeling of "elastic" play, which reduces the sensitivity of control. [/ Quote]
                      And the water is wet. To say what you wanted?
                      [quote] If you are not satisfied with this, already given answer, then go sleep it off, anyway there will be no other from me.
                      [/ Quote]
                      This is the answer? :) Highlighted by me:
                      [quote = Vladimir_2U]
                      I don’t know, it’s possible to switch to tubular rods and boost control, or maybe it’s just forgotten [/ Quote]
                      Well, again - they have not forgotten about the cables and are still using them, but they have forgotten about the "successful solution with tapes". Do you hear yourself? :)
                      1. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 19: 26
                        -3
                        Quote: Avis
                        Well, again - they have not forgotten about the cables and are still using them, but they have forgotten about the "successful solution with tapes". Do you hear yourself? :)

                        This and all that you nagalyakat above - stupidity in the style: "If I do not know, then this is not present or this is nonsense."

                        It is carried out in the form of steel cables, which on straight sections sometimes replaced with metal bands or wire. The cables transfer only the tensile load; therefore, the cable run consists of two branches forming a closed loop, in which a pretension is created to reduce elastic deformations when transferring control forces. On straight sections, the cables are supported by plastic pads with guide holes (e) to reduce sagging ... But it also has many significant disadvantages: large elastic springback (elastic backlash) under load; hood during operation, which requires frequent tension adjustment; high friction due to deformation of the cables when bending around the rollers; dependence of the cable tension force on temperature, etc. Due to these disadvantages cable wiring is rarely used now,

                        http://cnit.ssau.ru/virt_lab/su/su1_211.htm
                      2. Avis
                        Avis 4 June 2021 19: 37
                        +3
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Quote: Avis
                        Well, again - they have not forgotten about the cables and are still using them, but they have forgotten about the "successful solution with tapes". Do you hear yourself? :)

                        This and all that you nagalyakat above - stupidity in the style: "If I do not know, then this is not present or this is nonsense."

                        It is carried out in the form of steel cables, which on straight sections sometimes replaced with metal bands or wire. (...)
                        Due to these shortcomings cable wiring is rarely used now,

                        http://cnit.ssau.ru/virt_lab/su/su1_211.htm

                        I am aware of the shortcomings of cable wiring, you do not need to repeat this from time to time and highlight it so pathetically. :) However, ropes are still used, no matter how someone's worldview scratches, but ribbons are not. So, about "aroused interest and not implemented only because of the war" is sheer nonsense and ignorance.
                      3. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 6 June 2021 06: 28
                        0
                        Quote: Avis
                        I am aware of the shortcomings of cable wiring, you do not need to repeat this from time to time and highlight it so pathetically. :) However, ropes are still used, no matter how someone's worldview scratches, but ribbons are not. So, about "aroused interest and not implemented only because of the war" is sheer nonsense and ignorance.
                        Can't you read this?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It is carried out in the form of steel cables, which on straight sections sometimes replaced with metal bands or wire.

                        http://cnit.ssau.ru/virt_lab/su/su1_211.htm
                        This is actually a tutorial.

                        Can't you read this?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Interested in flying steel straps used instead of traditional cables. They turned out to be much less susceptible to deformations and, accordingly, did not require such frequent tightening of the joints.
                        http://alternathistory.com/ispytano-v-sssr-srednij-bombardirovshhik-pzl-37-los/

                        These are actually facts.

                        You seem to be functionally illiterate at all.
                      4. Avis
                        Avis 6 June 2021 07: 29
                        0
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Can't you read this?

                        Don't abuse the bad habit of judging others by yourself. I have not only read, but also understood, unlike you. The key is "sometimes". And this is so "sometimes" that for tens and hundreds of types of post-war airplanes with soft wiring, there are not even three serial ones with these notorious tapes in the wiring. If there are any.
                        This is actually a tutorial.

                        So what? :) For you, is it an analogue of the Bible for a faithful? A study guide for that and an educational one - to give a general idea of ​​the subject, including historical and exotic things. In your adored "tutorials" they also write about servo-wheels, but they have not been used for 40-50 years. The last aircraft with a servo steering wheel, which is immediately remembered, is the An-22. The same picture with ribbons: mentioned as one of the solutions, in theory. In practice, it almost never occurs. Yes, a very "good solution". :) So good that it was already "forgotten" © Vladimir_2U. :))) They also write about jet flaps.
                        These are actually facts.

                        The facts are that "Vladimir_2U" is only able to talk about the same thing 3-5 times, and even not his own, without understanding the essence of what has been talked about. And not a single thought.
                        Once again: this fetish of yours took almost only drawbacks from different types of wiring (well, except for resistance to stretching): from rigid wiring, weight due to the need to introduce rockers to turn the direction, which makes the design heavier and more complicated and clutters up the internal volumes, and so the need to take measures against resonance; from cable - the need for double wiring in each channel, because it does not work in compression, which worsens the manufacturability and convenience of the fuel cell.
                        You seem to be functionally illiterate at all.

                        Shut your mouth. But wash first.
                      5. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 6 June 2021 10: 57
                        0
                        Tapes were used as an element of wiring - fact, the testers noted the positive properties of tapes - fact, tapes as a special case of flexible wiring are mentioned in modern educational manuals - a fact, cables are used in combination with rockers - a fact.

                        If you ignore facts with links, then your functional illiteracy is also a fact.

                        Quote: Avis
                        Shut your mouth. But wash first.
                        ... Get a spatula and chuck it off.
                      6. Avis
                        Avis 6 June 2021 13: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Tapes were used as a wiring element - fact

                        With this figured out long ago. Indeed, there were such boobies.
                        testers noted the positive properties of the tapes - fact

                        Properties
                        о
                        .
                        But one fool here was filled with a nightingale that "they found a successful solution and only the war prevented." Only, here at point-blank range he does not see that after the war the cables did not disappear anywhere, and the ribbons are not visible (yeah, they "forgot" laughing ). They only sometimes replace cables, which are widely used, although not as widely as rods. But wider than these notorious tapes. Learn to read your own quotes:
                        And for understanding, you need to read in this order:
                        cable routing is currently in use rarely, usually on light, slow-moving aircraft, or in combination with rigid wiring in areas where the latter is difficult to use.

                        It is carried out in the form of steel cables, which on straight sections sometimes are replaced with metal strips or wire.

                        That is, ropes are used less often than rods, but tapes are used even less oftenthan "rare" cables. Streamline, you ignoramus.

                        tapes as a special case of flexible wiring are mentioned in modern educational manuals

                        Once again for the militant layman: the "tutorials" describe a lot of things that are practically not used on production aircraft today. Jet flap, rotor jet drive, tracked chassis, twin-fuselage aircraft, polyplane, turbo-compound piston power plants ... Dozens can be considered. And each example has at least one "positive property", otherwise they would not have been taken at all in their time. That's just, this constructive decision does not become successful from this - there are more minuses.

                        - fact, cables are used in combination with rockers - fact.

                        Nobody denied that "ropes are used with rocking chairs". I clearly wrote to you, the second year, about what kind of rocking chairs I spoke; I repeated three times: about those that allow the rods to change direction (and / or the height of their wiring). A roller is enough for the rope in this place. And the traction and the belt will need a rocking chair. About other cases (for example, when the cable rod is connected to the steering surface), I did not write a word. Stop reading something from the chauffee.
                      7. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 7 June 2021 06: 16
                        0
                        Complete negation first:

                        Quote: Avis
                        No, first you will confirm your words, that somewhere such a constructive solution was applied and that ours "recognized it as successful."

                        and then the shameful wagging backwards:
                        Quote: Avis
                        Only, here at point-blank range he does not see that even after the war the cables have not gone anywhere, and the ribbons are not visible (yeah, they "forgot" laughing). They are only sometimes replaced by cables

                        Quote: Avis
                        That is, cables are used less often than rods, but tapes are applied even rarer than "rare" cables.



                        Complete negation first:

                        Quote: Avis
                        You just do not know - the rocking cable is not needed simply by the property of the cable.


                        and then the shameful wagging backwards:
                        Quote: Avis
                        About other cases (for example, when the cable rod is connected to the steering surface), I did not write a word

                        Quote: Avis
                        Nobody denied that "ropes are used with rocking chairs"




                        And besides wagging backwards, there is also a lie
                        Quote: Avis
                        So, about "aroused interest and not implemented only because of the war"

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Do not know, perhaps transition to tubular rods and control boosting, and can just forgotten against the background of much more significant events.
                      8. Avis
                        Avis 7 June 2021 09: 02
                        0
                        Oooh, how everything is running ... :) Malcheg, you lie, but don't lie.

                        Complete negation first:
                        Quote: Avis
                        You just do not know - the rocking cable is not needed simply by the property of the cable.

                        and then the shameful wagging backwards:
                        Quote: Avis
                        About other cases (for example, when the cable rod is connected to the steering surface), I did not write a word

                        I wrote about rocking chairs and ropes in the first pair of replicas:
                        to use tapes instead of a cable is utter nonsense: the tape bends badly and you just can't put it through the roller, and with each movement of the controls, the tape on the roller will bend, and this is an inevitable break in the end. If you do it without bends, then rocking chairs are needed, and this is a complication and weighting of the structure.

                        And it was about this lack of cables that I wrote, so as not to clutter up the text and not overload your fragile children's brains with information that is too complex for you. And it is precisely this lack of non-rigid wiring that completely kills its attractiveness for modern aviation. Well, except for the ULM and some exceptions like the An-22, but it is not modern either.
                        In other cases (for example, connecting the thrust to the rudder / aileron), both the pipe and the steering gear need a rocking chair, so everyone has a draw here and I did not touch these cases, so as not to clutter up the text, because "reasonable is enough", but all sorts of "vladimir_2u "they do not seem to be.

                        Complete negation first:
                        Quote: Avis
                        No, first you will confirm your words that such a constructive solution was applied somewhere and that ours "recognized it as successful".

                        and then the shameful wagging backwards:
                        Quote: Avis
                        Only, here at point-blank range he does not see that even after the war the cables have not gone anywhere, and the ribbons are not visible (yeah, they "forgot" laughing). They are only sometimes replaced by cables

                        Tyuyu ... And I also explain to you something about aviation. :) Yes, you first need to learn Russian in order to talk about serious things. Seeking evidence of what you doubt (or are sure of) is not "complete denial." Otherwise, no proof is asked at all.

                        And besides wagging backwards, there is also a lie
                        Quote: Avis
                        So, about "aroused interest and was not implemented only because of the war"

                        It’s you who’ve gone to bed. Whose puddle is this? (nodding):
                        The decision was recognized as successful (...) The war did not give the same experience.

                        Whose puddle ?! Who shit? The same applies to "forgotten". You wrote it.
                2. Fitter65
                  Fitter65 5 June 2021 00: 53
                  +1
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Maybe it will be a revelation for you, but cable wiring, including in ultra-light aircraft, is actively used with rockers.

                  So the fact of the matter is that - CABLE, but never tape. Here is a simple example of the control of a La-5FN aircraft.


                  You can also take the technical description of the U-2 (Po-2) aircraft, where cables and rockers are found in the control, but any technical description of aircraft of 30-40-50 and further, years, we open and no where there are no control ribbons, there are brace bands but that's a completely different story.
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 6 June 2021 06: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Fitter65
                    So the fact of the matter is that - CABLE, but never tape. Here is a simple example of the control of a La-5FN aircraft.

                    The speech in the commentary went about the joint use of rockers and cable wiring, there was no question of tapes in a specific issue, please take a closer look.
                    1. Fitter65
                      Fitter65 6 June 2021 06: 48
                      0
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      The speech in the commentary went about the joint use of rockers and cable wiring, there was no question of tapes in a specific issue, please take a closer look.

                      This is you more attentively, you started for health, about the belt control, and jumped onto the ropes and rocking chairs. You have to be consistent and attentive.
                      1. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 6 June 2021 10: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Fitter65
                        This is you more attentively, you started for health, about the belt control, and jumped onto the ropes and rocking chairs. You have to be consistent and attentive.



                        Quote: Avis
                        Come on, come on, examples on the barrel. You just don't know - the rocking cable is not needed simply by the property of the cable. The rocking chair is needed for traction because the thrust does not bend. The cable is simply wound onto the roller.
                      2. Fitter65
                        Fitter65 6 June 2021 11: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Quote: Avis
                        Come on, come on, examples on the barrel. You just do not know - the rocking cable is not needed simply by the property of the cable. The rocking chair is needed for traction because the thrust does not bend. The cable simply starts onto the roller.

                        In the diagrams given by me, from the technical description of examples of cable control, you will not see rockers there only rollers. Take the technical description of the U-2 (Po-2) and you will see there ropes and rocking chairs, but there are purely design features. But with ribbons in all the examples I have given, somehow it is not mentioned ...
                      3. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 6 June 2021 11: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Fitter65
                        In the diagrams given by me, from the technical description of examples of cable control, you will not see rockers there only rollers.
                        I did not consider your schemes, as well as you my links.
                      4. Fitter65
                        Fitter65 6 June 2021 12: 06
                        0
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I did not consider your schemes,

                        So these are not my problems anymore. Even without your references, I know a little about the arrangement of the plane. Well, as far as I remember from your comments, you started with the tapes in the control wiring, and later jumped onto the ropes and rocking chairs, then, as I understand it, you will reach the boosters and the EDU system ...
                      5. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 6 June 2021 12: 29
                        0
                        Quote: Fitter65
                        So these are not my problems anymore.

                        If you do not read comments and links, then why do you bother with additions?

                        Quote: Fitter65
                        Well, as far as I remember from your comments, you started with the tapes in the control wiring, and later jumped onto the ropes and rocking chairs, then, as I understand it, you will reach the boosters and the EDU system ...
                        You are either not careful or you are not true.

                        The ribbons were mentioned as an example of a successful solution observed on Polish captured aircraft.

                        Quote: Avis
                        I read that our designers looked at several successful solutions on the captured Polish bombers, in particular, metal strips instead of metal cables for wiring to the controls.
                        Later, wagging his backside, Avis dragged in the rocking chairs:
                        Quote: Avis
                        and with each movement of the controls, the tape on the roller will bend, and this is an inevitable break in the end. If you do it without bends, then rocking chairs are needed, and this is a complication and weighting of the structure.

                        Quote: Avis
                        You just do not know - the rocking cable is not needed simply by the property of the cable.

                        There is a complete denial of the possibility of combining a cable and a rocking chair.

                        In reply:
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In places where rigid wiring transitions to cable and vice versa, sectors are necessarily installed. An exception may be cases when the figure, formed by ropes and rockers, regardless of the angle of deflection of the switchgear, is a parallelogram.
                        Well, of course, the knot connecting the cable and traction cannot be a roller.
          2. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 4 June 2021 10: 27
            +7
            Quote: Avis
            the tape bends badly and you just can't put it through the roller, and with each movement of the controls, the tape on the roller will bend, and this is an inevitable break in the end.

            The rubbing joints of the tape rub, and fail faster and at unexpected times than the cable. That is why in the navy, in the steering gear, where more effort was required on the aircraft, was used only cable (shturtrope).
          3. Elturisto
            Elturisto 5 June 2021 20: 43
            0
            Why don't you let a person dream ...
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 6 June 2021 06: 34
              0
              Quote: ElTuristo
              Why don't you let a person dream ...


              It is carried out in the form of steel cables, which are sometimes replaced in straight sections with metal strips or wire.
              http://cnit.ssau.ru/virt_lab/su/su1_211.htm
              This is actually a tutorial.



              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              In the control of the aircraft, steel belts were used instead of traditional cables. They turned out to be much less susceptible to deformation and, accordingly, did not require such frequent tightening of the joints.
              http://alternathistory.com/ispytano-v-sssr-srednij-bombardirovshhik-pzl-37-los/


              These are actually facts. And I don't give a damn about the tapes as such and grind them, but the pretentious denouncer Avis generally questioned the very fact of the existence of such a wiring, etc.
              1. Elturisto
                Elturisto 6 June 2021 15: 04
                0
                Yes, you never know idiots ... but he is just a child ... where does knowledge come from - MK, TM, KR and a young technician, then no one reads ...
    2. Constanty
      Constanty 4 June 2021 09: 11
      +1
      The test results of the captured PZL-37 oś in the USSR were largely unreliable, as an old worn copy of the 37Abis version was examined, already used as a training one with worn out engines before the war.

      This aircraft, on the other hand, had some really interesting solutions, such as a two-wheel independent suspension (designed by Petr Kubitsky). Thanks to this, the aircraft could be operated at field airports.

      Very good wing profile with low drag.
    3. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 4 June 2021 09: 41
      +5
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Well, what a bad flight, but how beautiful!

      More precisely, no one in the world except a Pole could create such an aircraft. If such an aircraft was in a museum, it would be the most visited museum.
      There is a saying about such ships in the Navy "The hammer sailed along the Volga", but I don't know how I call such aircraft in aviation.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 4 June 2021 17: 15
        +3
        Quote: tihonmarine
        There is a saying about such ships in the Navy "The hammer sailed along the Volga", but I don't know how I call such aircraft in aviation.

        The funny thing is that the passion for designing controversial aircraft did not let go of Poland after the war.
        The USSR gave Poland an order for an agricultural aircraft - it received the M-15 Belphegor jet biplane.
        1. Avis
          Avis 4 June 2021 19: 01
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA

          The USSR gave Poland an order for an agricultural aircraft - it received the M-15 Belphegor jet biplane.

          There 3/4 of the work - Antonov Design Bureau.
    4. alex neym_2
      alex neym_2 4 June 2021 10: 02
      +1
      Handsome must be put in quotation marks - then the meaning is clear.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 10: 11
        +1
        Quote: aleks neym_2
        Handsome must be put in quotation marks - then the meaning is clear.

        This is a matter of a sense of humor, for me a smiley is enough.
  2. andrewkor
    andrewkor 4 June 2021 05: 37
    +2
    Say what you don’t say, but the Polish cavalrymen are very good. From the time of the Napoleonic wars and earlier. This is me about the cinema: "Pan Volodievsky", "The Flood", "Ashes", "Crusaders", finally. That would be engaged in what the soul lies to. So there is no hunting in the "regional powers", "from Mozha, to Mozha," and that's it!
    1. S. Smirnov
      S. Smirnov 4 June 2021 06: 55
      +21
      hi Ambition grows with self-confidence. So the Poles wanted their wagon.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 4 June 2021 09: 00
        +2
        No station wagon, just an impromptu alteration of a passenger plane.
        However, when LOT Polish Airlines bought the DC-2, the design was abandoned, and the work already completed and the prototype were used to create a bomber, which was supposed to become insurance in the event of a failure of the modern beautiful PZL-37B Ło

        The PZL 38 Wilk was supposed to become a station wagon.


        .
  3. alex neym_2
    alex neym_2 4 June 2021 06: 49
    +4
    Yes, "handsome", you will not say anything ... didn’t they already smoked "weed" in those days? Although, as a "sightseeing and tourist" surely would fit
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 4 June 2021 09: 46
      +3
      Quote: aleks neym_2
      Yes, "handsome", you will not say anything ... didn’t they already smoked "weed" in those days?

      We didn’t smoke weed, but they drank the Bimber.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 4 June 2021 10: 12
        +1
        Quote: tihonmarine
        We didn’t smoke weed, but they drank the Bimber.

        Yes on carbide, mmm ... laughing
  4. SERGE ANT
    SERGE ANT 4 June 2021 07: 41
    +7
    The combat capability of the P-30 became more and more conventional.
    "For a plane to fight well, it must be beautiful."
    Marcel Daso.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 4 June 2021 09: 51
      +6
      Quote: SERGE ant
      "For a plane to fight well, it must be beautiful."

      It's hard to disagree with this, but to get a beautiful plane, you need to be Ilyushin, Bertini, Henkel, Messerschmit, but not a top manager.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 4 June 2021 12: 07
      +7
      Quote: SERGE ant
      "For a plane to fight well, it must be beautiful."
      Marcel Daso.

      The funniest thing is that the person who designed this said this:
  5. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 4 June 2021 10: 57
    +4
    In general, the LWS-4A "Zubr" can serve as another proof of the postulate of Andrey Nikolaevich Tupolev that "Only beautiful airplanes can fly well."
    And you can't argue. As soon as I saw the photo, I thought: he flew in general. It turns out that he flew.
    1. Alf
      Alf 4 June 2021 19: 37
      +1
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      It turns out he was flying.

      But it’s bad and close.
  6. Undecim
    Undecim 4 June 2021 13: 14
    +1
    Initially, the Poles went the German route, trying to create a kind of universal aircraft that could be used as a passenger, transport and military aircraft.

    The Poles did not go the German way and did not intend to create a universal aircraft.
    We designed a 30-seat PZL.12 passenger aircraft for Polskie Linie Lotnicze “LOT” SA But “LOT” bought Douglas DC-2, after which the project became unnecessary, but then Departament Aeronautyki decided to insure itself in case of problems with the design of the PZL.37 bomber Łoś and proposed redesigning the PZL.30 into a bomber capable of carrying up to 1200 tons of bombs.
    What is most curious, the author first invented about a "universal plane", and then himself further in the text and refuted, but "implanting" the article from the "corner", he did not even notice
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 4 June 2021 13: 26
      +3
      Zbislav Cholkosh was appointed chief designer. Cholkosz was noted for the development of many aircraft models in Poland, then fled in time to the United States, where he devoted the rest of his life to work in the firm of Frank Piasecki, which produced helicopters.

      Cholkosh came to the USA already in 1948. And in 1939 he moved to Great Britain, where he worked as a designer for Aero Mechano Ltd, and from 1943 he was director of the Aviation Department of the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Shipping in the Polish government in exile.
    2. Avis
      Avis 4 June 2021 14: 58
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      capable of carrying up to 1200 tons

      Oh, well, no shit to myself ...
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 4 June 2021 15: 07
        -1
        Naturally, they meant kilograms, not tons, although against the background of the scribbling that site authors have been giving out on the mountain lately, this does not look like a big mistake.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 4 June 2021 17: 10
        +1
        Quote: Avis
        Oh, well, no shit to myself ...

        Poland strong! © smile
  7. NF68
    NF68 4 June 2021 16: 01
    +2
    A mixture of a bulldog with a newborn.
  8. Alf
    Alf 4 June 2021 19: 31
    0
    Hmmm, he is a bison, that is, that this one.
    Many countries worked on projects of a multipurpose universal aircraft of the "bomber-heavy fighter-reconnaissance" type. Some (Germans, Dutch) did it,

    And which aircraft in the Luftwaffe at the end of the 30s was both a bomber and a heavy fighter?
    And the Dutch?
    1. Avis
      Avis 4 June 2021 19: 42
      0
      Quote: Alf

      And which aircraft in the Luftwaffe at the end of the 30s was both a bomber and a heavy fighter?
      And the Dutch?

      The Bf 110 was built on a mission for an aircraft that combines the qualities of an escort fighter and a high-speed bomber. His competitors were the FW.57 and Hs.124.
      1. Alf
        Alf 4 June 2021 19: 45
        0
        Quote: Avis
        Quote: Alf

        And which aircraft in the Luftwaffe at the end of the 30s was both a bomber and a heavy fighter?
        And the Dutch?

        The Bf 110 was built on a mission for an aircraft that combines the qualities of an escort fighter and a high-speed bomber. His competitors were the FW.57 and Hs.124.

        Yes, I forgot about the 110th. But WHAT came out of this Wishlist became clear in the battle for Britain, when the 110s had to be covered by the 109s. And as a bomber, the 110th turned out to be, to put it mildly, lousy.
        1. Avis
          Avis 4 June 2021 19: 57
          0
          Quote: Alf
          WHAT came out of this Wishlist became clear in the battle for Britain, when the 110s had to be covered by the 109s.

          The 110th itself covered the bombers, because the 109th often lacked a radius.
          1. Alf
            Alf 4 June 2021 19: 59
            0
            Quote: Avis
            Quote: Alf
            WHAT came out of this Wishlist became clear in the battle for Britain, when the 110s had to be covered by the 109s.

            The 110th itself covered the bombers, because the 109th often lacked a radius.

            That is, Goering's order appeared from scratch?
  9. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 5 June 2021 19: 34
    0
    The plane is as ugly as the Polish state.