Military Review

Historical knowledge: doors wide open and ... locked

228

That's how it was!


“- Wow! - said the delighted Ostap. - Full archive at home!
- Completely complete, - the archivist replied modestly, - I, you know, on
just in case ... Kommunkhoz doesn't need it, but I, in my old age, maybe
come in handy ... We live, you know, like on a volcano ... Anything can happen ...
Then people will rush to look for their furniture, and where are they, furniture? Here they are!
Here they are! In the closet. And who saved, who saved? Korobeinikov. Here
Gentlemen, thank you and say to the old man, help him in his old age ... And I have a lot
no need - ten per order will be served - and thanks for that ...
go, try, look for the wind in the field. They won't find me without me! .. "
("Twelve Chairs" I. Ilf and E. Petrov)

Paradoxes stories. In the previous article about the "pitfalls" of historical knowledge, when everything seems to be there, but, however, something is clearly missing, I cited an excerpt from J. Orwell's novel "1984", where the reason for dividing society into three categories of its citizens is then, "that ... for the lower ones it is characteristic that they are crushed by hard work and only from time to time direct their gaze outside the boundaries of everyday life". And right after Orwell, one commentator immediately wrote, “I have no time to go to the archive, I need to feed my family!“And he is certainly right. But ... in the period of the greatest historical cataclysms, even people who are busy with hard work "direct their gaze beyond everyday life". “What is it, vodka has risen in price? Why is this plant closed, because I worked at it ... ”- and so on and so forth.

But to answer these questions, the school course (and even learned somehow) for some reason is not enough. And where to go to at least somehow answer the questions that torment you? This is where serious problems begin, which we will talk about today ...

Information is ours and "not ours"


First of all, it will be necessary to start with the fact that since the times of the USSR, the attitude to informing the population was very ambiguous, about which, by the way, a whole series of articles "The Poisoned Pen" was published here on VO. On the one hand, comparative information was given, which obviously should not have been printed. But on the other hand, a lot of information was classified. For example, in the December 1941 issue of the Pravda newspaper in the material “Hitler's Lies” it was reported that he, the dog, was lying, and we had not 3,2 million prisoners, but only… 500 thousand! But one could understand that even this figure to people brought up on pre-war propaganda about the war "on a foreign land with little blood" should have seemed simply monstrous! And why talk about it at all, when no one pulled the tongue? "Let's count after the victory!" - that's all, that's enough! Everyone would understand. Books by Ponsonby and Heigl, "One-Story America" ​​with stories about salaries and baths, were also published in the USSR, which our people could just do without. "They hang Negroes there" - this is the main thing.


The archives of the Russian Federation contain just millions of units of documents, which in a completely different way allow you to look at many issues of our history. Well, for example, here is a document on the recruitment of skilled foreign workers in the USSR. That is, there was not only a shortage of engineers, but even just workers, but qualified ones! Party document on the recruitment of foreign specialists. RGASPI F. 17 Op. 114 D. 257 L. 140

But the books of Kautsky, Trotsky, Bukharin, Chayanov, Raskolnikov and many others were banned, and after the war the same Orwell, Pareto and our Voznesensky. "A short course in the history of the CPSU (b)" was either extolled as an example of historical knowledge, or removed from libraries "for the cult of personality." The Twelve Chairs were sometimes printed, then condemned for slandering our system. It turns out that we did not have the very possibility of any comparison of information, and metaphysics replaced dialectics. In fact, the most serious covenant of V.I.Lenin was violated:

“In our opinion, the state is strong because of the consciousness of the masses. It is strong when the masses know everything, they can judge everything and go for everything consciously. "

(PSS V.I. Lenin SECOND ALL-RUSSIAN CONGRESS OF SOVIETS R. p. 21)

Before that, he spoke about the bourgeois state:

"Strength, according to the bourgeois view, is when the masses go blindly to the slaughter, obeying the orders of the imperialist governments."

Interesting, isn't it? After all, our rulers were not bourgeois, but sometimes they acted the same way. From above they ordered, and the people approved and rejoiced - otherwise they were simply not allowed.

Well, everything that in one way or another, in the opinion of the ruling CPSU, went to the detriment of the people, was buried in the party archives. It was possible for researchers to work there, but only on their own topic. However, it also happened that the "girl" who was on duty was tired of being silent, and the graduate students too, and then, as a result of communication, boxes of chocolates were removed from the portfolios, they were accepted with gratitude, and the graduate students, in turn, got the opportunity to get acquainted with the inappropriate on the topic, but materials of interest to them. For example, relatives from Chapaevsk told me about a terrible explosion that happened at the local military plant in 1943. Neither then nor later were any details reported about him. And here - here they are, all the documents. But in 1985-1987. it was still impossible to use them. But it became possible today. There was a person who read all this and wrote an interesting article about those events, which appeared in the magazine "Secrets of the XX century", but in its content and topics it is quite worthy of the "Military Review": Explosion at the plant in Chapaevsk... But, as the author himself writes in it, the archive was closed earlier. Interesting information about this disaster is also contained in this study: A.N. Balysh. The development of the production of explosives in the USSR in the 30s. XX century and supplies under Lend-Lease during the Great Patriotic War. RUDN Bulletin, History of Russia series, 2012, No. 4.


I would like to show only a few volumes of work with party documents. Here we have before us once top secret documents: lists of members of the Communist Parties of different countries and dossiers on them, which were kept in the USSR. Now I will not even say from which archive their photocopies came into my hands. And it doesn't matter, because life is not enough to process them all and write a study about who the internationalist communists of the 30s were. Nobody needs it today ... Well, there were and were ...

There is so much information that it is very easy to drown in it ...


In the same Kuibyshev archive of the OK KPSS, I suddenly came across material about a funny local dissident in 1975 - he promised to tell one of the VO readers about it, and now I am telling you. Why funny? Because he was walking along the road with some kind of protest poster ... barefoot! And for some reason this most of all alarmed everyone and caused a lively controversy among the parody functionaries. There was only one such. But barefoot. And that's why he made a lot of noise by this. To be honest, I did not understand why it was the same then in 1985, and I still cannot understand it now. Well, barefoot, and thank God, you had to look at the poster, and not at your feet! But there are many such facts and different, interesting in their own way. To read everything ... there is neither time nor energy. Even just flipping through thick folders with documents - it takes time!


An impressive list and an impressive number of fighters for the idea in different countries and on different continents!

Another example of a top secret case, buried in the N-th archive of the OK KPSS, concerned the immoral behavior of the head of the department of the sports faculty of one of the local universities, which took place somewhere in 1977. He photographed female swimmers in his office in the nude. How naked was hard to find out. The main thing is that the party committee reported this. And the party organizer of the university and his deputy. They entered the office, found an open safe, in it a bottle of cognac, a plate of grapes and ... a pack of photographs with "images". Then his owner burst into the office and began to take them away, as a result of which the pack burst, "but what was left was enough to be convinced of their pornographic nature", - the party organizer wrote later in his report. I remember there were rumors about this "event". But no more ... Although it is interesting. "Strawberry". But it distracts. After all, it is difficult psychologically to deal with one “own topic”.


And here is its continuation ...

That is, people were separated from information both serious: explosions, accidents, disasters, and in terms of purely everyday collisions. The only and indisputable source of information was the Pravda newspaper with the indicative statements of the next general secretary. And that's it! Enough people!

Now I can only blame myself for the fact that, having in my old house filing magazines "Niva" from 1898 to 1917, "Science and Technology" from 1929 to 1938, "Tekhnika-Molodezhi" from 1938 to 2007, and a number of magazines, that is, in fact, a whole archive, no worse, probably, than Korobeinikov's ... at one time I handed over all this to the "second-hand bookseller" or to waste paper. But it’s true - where in a modern apartment was all this to be stored?


And here! Impressive, isn't it?

This is how we are deprived of the opportunity to receive comparative, that is, the most valuable information. Someone had to feed the family and he had no time for archives and magazines, but someone had nowhere to keep them, because our apartments were not intended for “family archives”.

After 1991, the situation (this was written about in the last article) changed dramatically for the better. The special depository of the Lenin Library was disbanded. Books banned in the USSR can now be read. But still the overwhelming majority of people "need to feed their families." They have no time for archives. But those who got there immediately unearthed such a thing that the gullible of our citizens just went crazy! "It can not be. The intrigues of enemies! " And go check? But how? You have to feed your family! This is how the vicious circle of incomplete knowledge in society was closed. Although in reality all the doors to the archives are open.

Archiving of the "covid era"


But finished off our archival business ... the same covid. The archives moved to work "remotely", and for this they were not 100% adapted to us. As a result, the queue for some archives has already stretched for years. Or the range of questions to which they now provide answers has been sharply narrowed.


Somehow about a year ago I had to make a request to the FSB archive. It doesn't matter on what question, the answer to it that you see here is important.

Or take, for example, the Ministry of Defense archive in Podolsk. On the street XXI century and the archive has its own website. And on it we read:

"At requests of a thematic, biographical (genealogical) nature, in the interests of individual citizens, as well as for the preparation of essays, books, monographs, the archive does not reveal information, this information is studied by users independently in the reading room of the archive."

Here's how, that is, even for money you will not get anything "like that" from there! That is, come, live, work. Let's say a person lives in ... Rostov-on-Don. Interested in military history. But he works in a factory. And so he needs to go to Moscow on his vacation and there in 24 days a maximum (who has such a vacation now, not everyone, let's say!) Five materials a day to collect the information he needs? And he will have workers four days a week! Come on, not a single normal person will do such a thing. That is, the doors to the archives are wide open, but ... it is not so easy to enter them.

Several years ago I needed to contact the Navy archive in St. Petersburg. Knew the case number. I made an order for him. I was informed - kind, sympathetic people, that there are other documents on this issue. I ordered them too. Only 30 pages of typewritten text. And all this cost a shipment of 1450 rubles. Not so much, but not too little. Then it all paid off many times over due to publications. But what if a person is looking for information for himself, for self-education? Then he just won't have enough money.

But there are also dissertations. You pay 400-500 rubles, and you will be sent the full text of any of them in electronic form, on any topic - I don’t want to study it! The person says he is interested in history. But it only suffices for YouTube and "live magazines". Voprosy istorii and Rodina are essentially inaccessible publications for him.


By the way, if you wish, you can always go to ... the university library in your city. Solve the issue with its head and get access to the dissertations stored in it, which were defended in its Academic Council. What if you like something? From reading it is clearly smarter. In any case, it won't get any worse. Pages can be scanned, photocopied, but dissertations are not very convenient for this. It's hard to bend them!

And we will continue to sour in the swamp of such a strange situation, with periodic calls from it - "to rebuff the slanderers", "to fight the rewriting of history", etc., unless all our archives are literally opened as soon as possible. For everyone. So you walk down the street, and suddenly it hit your head: "Well, I'll go to the archive, sit in the cool, read a couple of cases ..." And ... went in and read it, without any special permission. Russian citizen? This means that you have every right to know its entire history. Both good and bad! Well, "to the heap" it is necessary to remove all the secrecy labels from the documents of the war period. We won? We won! So, why hide something? Especially from their own people. And then, you see, it will become more difficult to falsify our history, and interest in it will sharply increase, and the culture of the people as a whole will increase. Because conscious people are always more cultured than irresponsible people ...
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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 1 June 2021 15: 10
    +10
    That's right, Vyacheslav Olegovich. And no one knows when all the archival secrets will be revealed.
    Real life example: digitized data on the awardees began to appear. I decided to find out more about my grandfathers who fought. I know that one had all his chest in the orders (two wars passed) and the second in a year earned both the order and several medals.
    I started looking for: scanty information. Only one episode is described! So this is not secret information! And what about the closed one?
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 1 June 2021 15: 29
      +6
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      That's right, Vyacheslav Olegovich. And no one knows when all the archival secrets will be revealed.

      That is why there is an "archival bureaucracy", so that the people can learn about the content of the required archival document in 100 years, and maybe 150 years, when it is not really necessary. As we admit, it was not very necessary to know in 1970, all the ins and outs of the Patriotic War of 1812.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 16: 35
        +13
        Quote: tihonmarine
        so that people can find out about the content of the required archival document in 100 years

        It is for that. The archives contain a lot of information related, for example, to the personal data of law enforcement officers, to undercover work, to scientific developments ... Who gave the order to shoot the deserter so-and-so in 1942? Ah, Colonel such and such? Where is he now? Is he dead? But he still has a granddaughter ...
        And who denounced my great-grandfather in 1937? Ah, that's who ... Neighbor ... Well, well ...
        But you never know you can pick up situations ... Especially if you open the judicial archives or the FSB archive ...
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 1 June 2021 18: 22
          +10
          Good afternoon, Mikhail. hi
          For some reason, I immediately remembered "The Moment of Truth" by Vladimir Bogomolov. The author has never worked either in the MGB or in "SMERSH", all information and documents from the archives with which he knew how to work perfectly. This is what you can get to the bottom of if you correctly structure the work with archival documents.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 1 June 2021 19: 28
            +5
            Quote: Sea Cat
            ... The author has never worked either in the MGB or in "SMERSH", all the information and documents from the archives with which he knew how to work perfectly.

            His biography says quite differently:
            Certificate of the Special Department of the State Security Committee under the Council of Ministers of the USSR for the Carpathian Military District No. sk / 46 dated February 6, 1957 that [Vladimir Bogomolov] actually served in the Red Army from October 1941 to April 1942 and from June 1943 to September 1944, and then from September 1944 to November 29, 1949 he served in the MGB: from October 22, 1945 to January 8, 1946 on Sakhalin Island, from January 8, 1946 to December 9, 1948 - on the Kamchatka Peninsula, from December 9, 1948 to November 29, 1949 - in the Carpathian Military District ... On the basis of the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR No. 2358 of 14.9.45, service on a preferential basis is counted: on the island of Sakhalin one month of service for one and a half months, on the Kamchatka peninsula one month for two. Signature: Colonel Adoevtsev, head of the personnel sector of the KGB Special Department for the KGBVO. Printing

            So he was admitted to the archive because he was related to SMERSH and the MGB, and he had work experience, which is why he described everything truthfully, and not because he knew how to work with archives.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 1 June 2021 19: 36
              +7
              and not because he knew how to work with archives.

              Do you think that there is no need for this, and any "trampoline", or the MGB driver could write such a book?
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 1 June 2021 19: 58
                +2
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Do you think that there is no need for this, and any "trampoline", or the MGB driver could write such a book?

                No, not any, for this the talent of a writer is needed. For example, there were many officers like V.V. Karpov in the Red Army during the war, but only a few of them became true writers who not only know the specifics of the service, but also know how to convey all this to readers in the right form. Bogomolov also belongs to such writers.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 June 2021 20: 39
                  +6
                  If not difficult, who is Karlov and what books does he have? I somehow do not know at all. hi
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 20: 48
                    +5
                    Vladimir Karpov. The author of "Take it Alive" about Lieutenant Romashkin. A funny action movie about scouts. He also has a trilogy about Marshal Zhukov written in a laudatory sense. Frankly weak, in my opinion. There are many factual errors and an obvious bias in favor of Zhukov.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 June 2021 20: 54
                      +5
                      Got it, thanks. I thought there was something more serious. And I wouldn't even read about Zhukov, for me and his own memoirs were enough at one time.
                  2. ccsr
                    ccsr 1 June 2021 20: 52
                    +1
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    If not difficult, who is Karlov and what books does he have?

                    Not Karlov, but Karpov.
                    Vladimir Karpov - "Take it alive!" and many more books.
                2. Doctor
                  Doctor 1 June 2021 21: 20
                  +3
                  No, not any, for this the talent of a writer is needed. For example, there were many officers like V.V. Karpov in the Red Army during the war, but only a few of them became true writers who not only know the specifics of the service, but also know how to convey all this to readers in the right form. Bogomolov also belongs to such writers.

                  Do you think Bogomolov knew the specifics of the service? wink

                  I was in a hurry like a hazel when I saw approaching footsteps behind me. I looked around - no one. I listened: someone was definitely catching up with me. Sliding on the go fuse TT, I put the pistol in my trouser pocket and, having chosen a suitable place, instantly hid behind a bush.

                  And there is such a bulk. Not to mention the mythical "pendulum".

                  The book was written to order in order to form a certain image of a military counterintelligence officer.
                  Far from real. bully
                  1. Lynx2000
                    Lynx2000 2 June 2021 01: 51
                    +4
                    Quote: Arzt

                    And there is such a bulk. Not to mention the mythical "pendulum".
                    The book was written to order in order to form a certain image of a military counterintelligence officer.
                    Far from real. bully

                    Regarding swinging the pendulum, this is a standard exercise in fire training for operatives, SOBR operatives, and riot police. It consists in slopes, with a step forward to the left with an inclination of the body, a step to the right forward with an inclination of the body.
                    Shooting with a flip over the right or left shoulder from the right / left knee.
                    Shooting in a supine position, flip on the chest, shooting with body turns. Shooting offhand, using the right and left hands (it also needs to be trained by right-handers), etc.
                    Regarding the question that the head of the Department knows more and can reliably write, it is not always true, sometimes, the heads of departments, departments appoint "specialists" who have never had experience of practical operational work.
                    I personally know of such an example, when an employee who served as an employee and head of the "secret" was appointed as the head of the regional department.
                  2. ccsr
                    ccsr 2 June 2021 12: 38
                    +1
                    Quote: Arzt
                    Do you think Bogomolov knew the specifics of the service?

                    They learn quickly in war, and what is stored in the memory in youth, then remains for life. Of course, Bogomolov's work of fiction cannot be compared with L. Ivanov's memoirs "The Truth About SMERSH", but when compared with modern writings, his book looks convincing.
                    Quote: Arzt
                    Sliding the TT safety catch on the fly, I put the pistol in my trouser pocket and, choosing a suitable place, instantly hid behind a bush.

                    Here's what they write about this:
                    The lack of a separate mechanical safety device was a consequence of the simplification of the trigger mechanism, while an accidental shot was prevented by a disconnector and a special groove for setting the trigger on the safety platoon. That is, the TT fuse could only be put on by means of the trigger, putting it on a safety platoon, without bringing it to a combat platoon.
                    The author has forgotten how it was done, not such a big mistake for the book.
                    Quote: Arzt
                    The book was written to order in order to form a certain image of a military counterintelligence officer.

                    I will not argue, because then this topic was not exaggerated in the USSR at all, and therefore the appearance of Bogomolov's book was a great discovery of one of the pages of the war.
                    Quote: Arzt
                    Far from real.

                    How can you know this, especially since SMERSH itself did not exist for so long, and there were few of those who served there in general after the war, so there is no reason not to believe Bogomolov.
                  3. John22
                    John22 2 June 2021 18: 05
                    +1
                    Maybe Bogomolov was referring to the safety cocking of the trigger.
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 19: 37
            +7
            Hello, Uncle Kostya.
            Bogomolov, in my opinion, was in the intelligence service and was also directly related to Smersh ...
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 1 June 2021 19: 45
              +5
              Yes, it turns out that he served (I was already corrected here), but, I suppose, not in a high position, so the ability to work with documents probably helped him.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 19: 55
                +5
                There is no doubt about it. And if the actual operational work in the field, as it seems to me, is familiar to him, rather from the outside, then the staff, office work, on the contrary, is more likely from the inside. In any case, this is exactly the impression I have.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 June 2021 20: 40
                  +5
                  Yes, it seems.
    2. Civil
      Civil 1 June 2021 15: 32
      +4
      Well, everyone was allowed to read, everything is on the Internet. Has life become better after 1991? What is the answer of the generation of speculators and privatizers?
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 1 June 2021 15: 58
        +10
        This is because not all archives are open. Like everything, from the word everything, they will open, life will become better, life will become more fun. We will see the true face of Pravda and the rivers will be filled with fish, the meadows will be cattle, mrs, bread will be baked only from the first grade of flour , spacecraft will fly to other planets and beyond the Universe, the Yellowstone volcano will explode in the United States and only the United States will suffer, the dollar will collapse. The ruble will break through the broken bottom and rise sharply overtaking all stable currencies of the world and I will not list further, communism with a capitalist bias will come when there is no shortage of toilet paper. laughing
    3. antivirus
      antivirus 1 June 2021 16: 18
      +4
      Angles postponed archives, 50 years of secrecy, in 91 to 2041 - 100 years.
      in ours can be found - anything you like - reports-reports of cowardice. and then the guards and order bearers. simple "sabotage" screwed up the box of the T34-secret tank.
      losses "by stupidity"

      a cavalry swoop from a civilian was the norm in 41, and in 45, already knowing the losses, it was considered a crime or negligence.
    4. Snail N9
      Snail N9 1 June 2021 16: 37
      +8
      Especially funny (in quotation marks, because in fact it is scary) is the introduction of an article into the Constitution on "prohibiting the rewriting of history." This is scary because in this way history is transformed from a science based on confirmed facts into a religion based on dogmas approved by the "hierarchs". Well, the last order of the Minister of Defense dated March 21 (or 23?) Today of the year, closing the archives of the RF Ministry of Defense during the Second World War, previously opened by Serdyukov, also scored the last coffin in our "historical science" ...
      1. sgapich
        sgapich 2 June 2021 02: 31
        +1
        Quote: Snail N9
        ... Well, the last order of the Minister of Defense dated March 21 (or 23?) Of March this year, closing the archives of the Russian Ministry of Defense during the Second World War, previously opened by Serdyukov, also scored the last coffin in our "historical science" ...

        If you carefully examine the situation, it will become clear that no archives of the RF Ministry of Defense have been closed. Although the howl "light-faced" raised a hefty one.
        A screenshot from the official website of the RF Ministry of Defense is attached.
    5. astepanov
      astepanov 1 June 2021 17: 51
      +9
      So, let's say I am a worker who has gained access to the archives in order to objectively assess any segment of our history. So I came to the archive - and what next? And then nothing. What to do with a pile of documents? How to compare millions of dates, surnames, events and build a coherent picture? How can you rise above your own ideological stiffness? No way - because even professionals sometimes draw diametrically opposite conclusions from the same material. Why are there archives - we cannot always give a correct assessment of current events, although newspapers are at hand, and a zombie box, and the Internet. The lamentations about the inaccessibility of archives, of course, are understandable - but only for those who know how to work professionally: for historians, sociologists ... For others, this is completely irrelevant.
      To make it clearer: let's say, it is very useful to know chemistry. All information on chemistry is open, it is not distorted by ideological sores and party preferences, a bunch of textbooks, it would seem, go and read, and you will be the first guy in the village. Alas, all these books will be comprehended only after many years of systematic self-torture under the guidance of skilled guides, after long practice. What can we say about history! And therefore, guys like the nightingale-jelly-milchins will always be in demand and will successfully powder our brains, even if they open all the archives at once and even force them into them. And only when a particularly roasted rooster pecks very hard, then the people, as usual, will start a riot - senseless and merciless, on occasion burning the archives.
      1. kalibr
        1 June 2021 18: 38
        +9
        Very well, Alexey, you have written. This is precisely the problem of historical knowledge ...
        1. Snail N9
          Snail N9 2 June 2021 11: 13
          +1
          H'm. This is one side of the matter, and not the right one, due to the fact that such a component as is discarded: 1- the original intellect of a person, his IQ, because there are people who grasp everything on the fly, and there are real dumb. 2- initial education, allowing to correctly evaluate one or the other, 3- correct organization of the process of cognition and search, that is: its schedule in steps and directions to obtain as a result a whole picture of what is happening. For example, I have long been interested in the topic of the use of chemical and nuclear weapons. Almost everyone believes that chemical weapons were not used during WWII. But this is not the case. It was also applied on a fairly large scale. However, everyone says the opposite, like, no, it was not used ... But at the same time, chemical weapons are cunningly excluded from the brackets ... "poisonous fumes" and adamsite derivatives - CN. I will not describe what and how, but for example how I built my search in this direction. 1-first, he assessed the production of chemical weapons by the belligerents, their accumulated quantity and types, where they were stored and how they moved during WWII. Then he determined which military units were responsible for its use and traced their path (if possible) during the war, comparing with data from the archives what happened in those places where these military units were located. This was the main archival work. So, if everything is more or less clear for the Germans, as well as for the Italians. But there is very little information on the UK, USA, as well as on Japan. And in the USSR ... there is none at all! Everything is still classified as "top secret"! That is, there is no way to find where the chemical weapons were stored on the territory of the USSR, how they moved and so on. This is what closing archives means.
          1. ycuce234-san
            ycuce234-san 2 June 2021 20: 19
            +1
            Try looking on all sides for gas mask consumables and gas masks and medicines to help with poisoning, information on treatment and rehabilitation and the scale of their production and remnants at the end of the war. Reserves are finite, no one will spend them on unnecessary means of protection, as well as accumulate them "for a warehouse". Among the British, gas masks were quite popular. Soviet chemists seemed to be more fond of flamethrower weapons rather than poison.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 19: 51
        +8
        Quote: astepanov
        So I came to the archive - and what next?

        I agree with all that has been said.
        In order to go to the archive you need to know where and why you are going. And it is better to start the learning process not from archives, and not even from libraries, but from bookstores.
        There are a number of signs by which you can distinguish a truly scientific book from a pseudoscientific nonsense. Buy a book on a topic of interest, get acquainted with the content, links. Then go to the library (or the Internet) to find the indicated literature on these links, read. Etc...
        Then, when you start to come across books that are not on the network, you can go to the library - fill out cards, place orders.
        Archives are the final stage, when you already have experience with other written sources.
    6. zenion
      zenion 6 June 2021 00: 09
      0
      This is exactly what you need. Go to the archive, exhale, inhale and spit a mouthful of shit for everyone to recognize what may be interesting just over the hill. What I wanted to know about the war, I learned from my father and other front-line soldiers. And what the leaders of the country needed to know does not interest me, as well as millions of others.
  2. Looking Petrovich
    Looking Petrovich 1 June 2021 15: 20
    +7
    About rewriting. Here is an example - a painting by the artist Svetlov "The Pioneers Caught an English Spy" in 1939. From the 41st the spy in the name became German. In the 50s, when the friendship evaporated, the spy was again English. The dumbest Soviet propaganda, although modern Russian is not lagging behind. The author raises the Soviet theme more and more - it is obviously weak to write about the "effectiveness" of the modern Kisilev-Solovievism.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 1 June 2021 15: 47
      +4
      Quote: Looking Petrovich
      The dumbest Soviet propaganda, although modern Russian is not lagging behind.

      But when they write in foreign media that Taras Bulby was Japanese, then all the propaganda of the Republic of Ingushetia, the USSR and the Russian Federation taken together is off the charts.
    2. S. Viktorovich
      S. Viktorovich 1 June 2021 15: 48
      +1
      The pioneers finally caught Navalny and found out who he was.
    3. kalibr
      1 June 2021 16: 08
      +2
      Quote: Looking Petrovich
      it is obviously weak to write about the "effectiveness" of the modern Kisilevshchino-Solov'evshchina.

      About this I have THREE textbooks for students. You can find it on the Web and read ... One is called "Public Opinion Management Technologies". There is a lot about modernity.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 2 June 2021 11: 12
        +3
        A bit off topic.
        Several years ago I needed to contact the Navy archive in St. Petersburg. Knew the case number. I made an order for him. I was informed - kind, sympathetic people, that there are other documents on this issue. I ordered them too. Only 30 pages of typewritten text. And all this cost a shipment of 1450 rubles. Not so much, but not too little.

        We got off cheaply, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Thirty sheets is a pittance. Moreover, with shipment. Moreover, remotely - no personal visit was needed. hi Our archives could cut money in their storehouses if they organized the remote transmission of information. But the archives are "state affairs", and there it is nowhere without a signature and a seal ...
    4. Avior
      Avior 1 June 2021 16: 42
      +5
      I wonder where the pioneer got the trunk from? Have you taken it away from the spy?
      He uses it extremely awkwardly - he stood opposite his
    5. Catfish
      Catfish 1 June 2021 18: 59
      +5
      Yes, pioneers, they are! Vigilance is our everything!



      Be ready! Always ready!
      The question is, why and what?
      1. depressant
        depressant 1 June 2021 19: 45
        +4
        And in general ... What was the English spy doing in the Russian countryside? wassat )))
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 1 June 2021 19: 52
          +5
          How is that? Spied and sabotaged! What else could he do there? laughing
          1. depressant
            depressant 1 June 2021 20: 10
            +4
            Nope! He tested the pioneer's ideological resilience: does the pioneer take off his tie and hide it in his pocket when he leaves school? Does the pioneer wear a tie on vacation? Apparently, he asked .... And you, Kostya, know yourself about money!
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 1 June 2021 20: 45
              +6
              ... does the pioneer take off his tie ...?


              Interestingly, he spied on the pioneers, what are they filming there, leaving the school? These spies, they, you know ... wink
              1. depressant
                depressant 1 June 2021 21: 01
                +5
                No, Kostya, pioneers do not have such fodder udders. Or traded? wassat )))
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 1 June 2021 21: 13
                  +7
                  Ooooh, this means that you have not seen the Real pionErok in due time! Although ... what interest you may have in this, but I remember something. laughing
                  Oh, okay, better about the spies. drinks
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 1 June 2021 21: 18
                    +6
                    On paveletskaya-radial
                    Among the Ionic colonies
                    The perfect man stood
                    And drank a triple cologne.
                    He was understated
                    With a face like flint.
                    Dressed decisively and simply:
                    Panties, boots and a belt!
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 1 June 2021 21: 20
                      +6
                      "He was in a leather jacket,
                      He was in leather pants
                      He sang the folk song "Murka"
                      Eh, with tears in my eyes ... "(c)
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 1 June 2021 21: 31
                        +6
                        A sign in the Odessa toilet: "Nothing good will come of you!"
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 1 June 2021 21: 43
                        +6
                        I was in Odessa, there are many interesting inscriptions, for example, on the gates of the cargo port: "Do you need ships?"
                        Although my quote has nothing to do with Odessa, this is the song of Semu Budyonny. soldier
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 1 June 2021 21: 54
                        +5
                        "In an art store:
                        - For me, please, this landscape, this poster and that faience kitty.
                        - This, comrade, is not a kitty, but Semyon Mikhalych Budyonny! "(C)
                      4. Catfish
                        Catfish 1 June 2021 22: 01
                        +7
                        Yes, the friend was impressive. laughing

                        Syoma is here with Klim.
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 1 June 2021 22: 21
                        +5
                        “Tsarist Russia was a prison of peoples. It was necessary to break the bars and bars of this prison. And then this man appeared.
                        - Have you called the locksmith?
                      6. Catfish
                        Catfish 1 June 2021 22: 22
                        +5
                        And the surname of the locksmith was Polesov. laughing
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 1 June 2021 22: 54
                        +3
                        Eh, no, my friend, his name was Clement Voroshilov. Or am I missing something wassat
                      8. Catfish
                        Catfish 1 June 2021 22: 55
                        +5
                        I doubt you haven't read The Twelve Chairs.
                      9. depressant
                        depressant 1 June 2021 23: 02
                        +4
                        Kostya, how are you not ashamed to remind me of my sclerosis! wassat ))))
                      10. Catfish
                        Catfish 1 June 2021 23: 23
                        +5
                        So it’s not out of malice, but out of ignorance. love
                      11. depressant
                        depressant 1 June 2021 23: 53
                        +4
                        Of my, great laughing

                        What is true knowledge? It is always a guess. And the rest is an excuse for it)))
                      12. depressant
                        depressant 2 June 2021 00: 06
                        +5
                        The night is giving me signs with a blue light
                        And I wander through it, collecting cereals of knowledge,
                        Night!..
                        There is the freshness of the wind, the silhouettes of ships,
                        In dreams, yearning, I walk for her ...
                        Night!...
                        This is for you, Kostya, impromptu)))
                      13. Catfish
                        Catfish 2 June 2021 00: 07
                        +4
                        "What is truth?"
  • Bolt cutter
    Bolt cutter 1 June 2021 22: 12
    +3
    Interestingly, he spied on the pioneers
    I was eighteen, she was seventeen
    Or maybe quite the opposite ...
    Tight body, bright red mouth
    Or maybe quite the opposite -
    The mouth was tight, and the body was bright red
    I didn't want her at all - she wanted me
    And carried away him timidly ...
    But my thoughts were pure!
    Or maybe, otherwise it was the case
    And I was dragging her into the bushes, and her thoughts were pure ...
    She was shy and tender
    And I was drunk and harassed dirty
    Or maybe she was drunk
    And she molested, but I was afraid ...
    We drank wine for courage
    And yet, how long ago it all was!
    Go son, get two liters of beer
    So, I remembered the pioneers of Eastern Ukraine laughing Then he was an Octobrist sad
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 1 June 2021 22: 21
      +4
      Everyone has something to remember. smile
      1. Richard
        Richard 3 June 2021 00: 38
        +1
        And what does this picture have to do with a sea cat?
        You, Konstantin, are not entitled to land pioneers according to the norms of allowance. You have a different diet smile

        link: Resolution of the Ministry of Defense No. 946 of December 29, 2007. "Standards for the allowance of seals, senior seals, long-term seals and reserve seals"
        PS .Pionerki are allowed only for tankmen and museum workers yes laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 3 June 2021 18: 26
          +2
          Dima hi , special thanks for the decision of the Ministry of Defense! good
          But ladies with such a stern never attracted me, but rather just scared me away. Can you imagine if such a swing would flop on a cat that slept in a chair? Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr laughing
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 2 June 2021 00: 50
    +5
    Quote: Sea Cat


    On the issue of "historical knowledge". The author of the demotivator apparently did not know that the Octobrist badge on the chest is worn on the chest on the left "near the heart". The little pioneer badge looks different, with a bonfire at the upper beams and a slogan at the lower beams.
    This badge on the chest, this "pioneer" generally looks like the Order of the Red Star ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 2 June 2021 01: 23
      +5
      This badge on the chest, this "pioneer" generally looks like the Order of the Red Star ...

      So maybe this is her merit? laughing
      1. Lynx2000
        Lynx2000 2 June 2021 01: 54
        +3
        Quote: Sea Cat
        So maybe this is her merit? laughing

        recourse Such an overgrowth is only departmental, according to the length of service.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 2 June 2021 02: 29
          +5
          Well ... you never know, everyone has a personal life. wink
  • zenion
    zenion 6 June 2021 00: 12
    0
    Thus, Paures was caught. Just the ones who hunted German and British spies before the war. He lived in a town that was on the border with Romania. So there, too, the boys loved to catch spies. So the NKVDeshniks did not like it. They wanted to know not only why they switched, but also to whom they switched, and the boys knocked everything down.
  • tatra
    tatra 1 June 2021 15: 41
    -2
    Another anti-Soviet article from their huge number, starting with Perestroika. So, what is next ? Did it bring any benefit to the country and the people? What would be better in the USSR from the fact that if the communists and their supporters, in the same way, for decades selflessly "sucked" everything that those who were taken from the country by the communists did, would proceed with maniacal criticism of how they worked and fought ?
    1. kalibr
      1 June 2021 16: 26
      +6
      And someone, Irina, said that one must know the past in order not to repeat its mistakes, that one cannot be Ivan who does not remember kinship? And you, then, are calling for this, right?
      1. tatra
        tatra 1 June 2021 16: 31
        -2
        If people are sincere, they are NOT lying, and they are not hypocrites. And your anti-Sovietism, enemies of the Communists, which you have the only justification for the capture of the USSR in 30 years is sheer lies, slander, hypocritical "philanthropy", and a CRIME against the country and people, against the rule of law.
        1. kalibr
          1 June 2021 16: 42
          +5
          Quote: tatra
          before Legality

          It's funny! Turn to the law to nip, so to speak. It will be interesting to meet you face to face in court.
          1. tatra
            tatra 1 June 2021 16: 50
            -1
            If you can't answer anything smart, don't answer. Anti-Sovietism is continuous crimes, it is slanderous accusations of some people for crimes, it is unsubstantiated excuses for criminals, it is blaming others for the crimes of some people, it is an excuse for the crimes of those who in any country in the world would be considered state criminals - collaborators and separatists, lackeys enemies of their country and people, traitors.
            1. kalibr
              1 June 2021 17: 21
              +3
              Quote: tatra
              If you can't answer anything smart, don't answer.

              Why does my proposal seem unwise to you? In court, with documents in hand, a lot of things can be proven. But here we are not talking about that, we are talking about the fact that the masses must know everything in order to do the right thing. The communist Lenin said this, and I completely agree with him. Let's open the archives and at least learn something from what was a secret!
            2. gsev
              gsev 4 June 2021 02: 45
              0
              Quote: tatra
              Anti-Soviet is continuous crimes, it is libelous accusations of some people in crimes, it is unsubstantiated excuses for criminals

              And here is the real face of the anti-Soviet, who received in the real city of Noginsk a real punishment for anti-Sovietism at the end of the Soviet regime. A group of initiative citizens decided to independently make a playground in the courtyard of the house. At some point, they realized that without the help of the authorities, it would not be possible to do this fully. Then there were problems with getting transport, tools and connecting to the mains. A representative of this group turned to local authorities and parties for help. There, his ideas were treated with caution. At some point, the conversation turned to personalities. The leading representatives of the authorities were told that they are shitty communists if they do not support the initiative of fellow citizens to improve the life of the country. The communists tensed and a representative of the initiative group for anti-Sovietism was sent to a psychiatric hospital for treatment.
        2. smaug78
          smaug78 1 June 2021 16: 46
          -4
          So you are an anti-Soviet and an enemy of the communists. A little lev, gaining knowledge from the inscriptions on the fence ...
    2. kalibr
      1 June 2021 16: 28
      +1
      Quote: tatra
      the communists and their supporters, in the same way, for decades selflessly "sucked" everything that those who were taken from the country by the communists would have done, would have come out with maniacal criticism of how they worked and fought

      And that's exactly what they did! Is not it so? Read any book published at this time ... Continuous manic criticism. But then you liked it, but you don't like it now. Double standards for which we criticize the West so much today. Ay-ay!
      1. tatra
        tatra 1 June 2021 16: 36
        -3
        NO, the Communist Bolsheviks and their supporters, immediately after the seizure of the country, created their own ideology and propaganda FOR themselves, FOR what they themselves did. And, unlike the enemies of the communists who seized the USSR, the communists and their supporters never in these 103 years had any slander against those from whom they took the country away, there were no boorish, bastard clicks of either that or that country. History teaches that one must respect the history of one's country, and not slander it.
        1. kalibr
          1 June 2021 16: 39
          +2
          Quote: tatra
          there was no slander against those from whom they took the country away, there were no boorish, vulgar cries of neither that nor that country

          Really? Then open the "Short course in the history of the CPSU (B)" and read. You will find everything there! But you will not find it, I will somehow show you all this in one of the articles. What year do you prefer the book?
          1. tatra
            tatra 1 June 2021 16: 46
            0
            Learn to lead discussions. If you cannot refute my words that you quoted, then do not "refute". And the enemies of the communists are predictable and the same, and I know that whenever I compare you with the communists, you all rush AGAINST the communists. You already have a reflex, like Pavlov's dog.
            1. kalibr
              1 June 2021 17: 09
              +2
              Quote: tatra
              Learn to lead discussions.

              Yes, Irina, study. I was the first to ask you two questions. And where are the answers? I offered you to defend "honor and dignity ..." in court. Again there is no answer. So who needs to learn?
              1. tatra
                tatra 1 June 2021 17: 17
                -5
                AGAIN, learn to lead discussions. And discussions, for any reason, are not only criticism and malice, beloved by the enemies of the communists, AGAINST, but also FOR. And what is FOR, what is AGAINST, should be honest and objective, and not in the way that is beneficial to the enemies of the communists. And it is in this way that "truth is born in a dispute."
                1. kalibr
                  1 June 2021 17: 30
                  +3
                  Quote: tatra
                  And it is in this way that "truth is born in a dispute."

                  Well, in a dispute with you, only an orc or a goblin can be born, but thanks for the idea - I will reread the "Short Course ..." again and based on it I will make some interesting materials. Everything there will be purely communist - both honest and objective with the indication of pages. 1945 edition. Anyone, including you, can check.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
            2. gsev
              gsev 4 June 2021 02: 53
              +2
              Quote: tatra
              And the enemies of the communists are predictable and the same

              At various times, Trotsky, and Bogdanov, and Pyatnitsky, and Bukharin, and Malenkov, and Beria, and Kaganovich were considered the enemies of the communists. Moreover, of the leading members of the CPSU (b) - the CPSU, in comparison with non-members of this party, a disproportionate number of people were executed for anti-communist activities. I don’t think that until 1952 anyone could have predicted that L.P. Beria will be shot as an English spy and enemy of the people.
  • BAI
    BAI 1 June 2021 16: 01
    +8
    The archives must be approached with caution. I recently found out that there were 2 waves of falsification of archives. At the state level. The case, of course, is a secret owl, no one directly admits it, but even on the Internet there are hints, especially if you know what to look for. Few, but there is. Everything connected with Stalin was falsified. The first wave - before the 20th Congress - was the debunking of the personality cult, at the behest of Khrushchev, the second wave was the collapse of the USSR, it was necessary to exterminate the pride of people for their country, for their history. Ivans who do not remember kinship are easier to manage, to put them in a dependent position. And Stalin was very suitable for this. Firstly, with the generally recognized shortcomings, it was only necessary to strengthen them, and secondly, victory in the war and the explosive growth of the USSR economy are inextricably linked with it. And of all communist leaders, he is the most famous and popular.
    Therefore, both individual pages in files and entire documents were changed. The fakes were made by government agencies, with absolute quality. By the way, they did not pay attention: for tens of years nothing, everyone is sitting quietly and suddenly, somewhere, someone, somewhere, finds a previously unknown "document" that is so well suited to the current political situation at the time of the discovery that you simply wonder how it was before without this "document" we lived. As an example, a report on the use of chemical weapons by the Red Army against the peasants of the Tambov region (province).
    1. kalibr
      1 June 2021 16: 21
      +5
      To begin with, all this talk is not worth a damn. You do not know the specifics of how archives work. It is possible to forge1, 10,100 documents, but it is impossible to forge an MASS of documents that are cross-reference to this document. All the data on the salaries and bonuses of the guards, reports of sex workers, data on the supply of firewood, food, alcohol, complaints about poor maintenance ... Millions of letters to the OK, the Central Committee to the Soviets ... It is simply impossible to come up with such a number of documents. Moreover, the documents from Pyatigorsk are associated with Penza and vice versa, Moscow with Minusinsk, Minusinsk with Kemerovo. Huge VOLUMES of documents on births and deaths, thefts and murders, thefts ... On the use of chemical weapons in Tambov, a doctoral dissertation was defended by a Tambov resident, a native of the local peasants, whom his grandfather told about this. Look ... it is on the Web, there are links to documents. Lots of documents! Human memory is not absolute. Those who fake something will always forget, miss, they simply cannot know everything. And then inconsistencies will come out and ... it will be both a scandal and a sensation. So the risk of counterfeiting is very high. And then ... today one thing, tomorrow another ... it is dangerous to deprive yourself of the opportunity to "change course." People "above" understand this too. Therefore ... I personally would not do what you write about him. All my experience speaks against this. Although ... 1-2 documents ... why not. But only 1-2 do not specifically prove anything. There are dissertations in which more than 100 documents are used, more than 1000, and then there are questions to them. And here 1,2,10 ... yes, it's funny!
      1. tatra
        tatra 1 June 2021 16: 28
        -5
        Here, one can immediately see the victim of anti-Soviet propaganda, unable to think independently, to analyze the incoming information. Why would the puppets of anti-Soviet-Russophobic puppeteers in the West and on the territory of the USSR need any archives, they thoughtlessly, like zombies, repeat after their puppeteers all anti-Soviet myths, fakes, nonsense, cliches, without even understanding their meaning.
        So, the "liberals" -Rusophobes threw in them the stamp "all the Stalinists are the descendants of the guards", and the zombies chorus this word from the jargon of criminals.
        1. kalibr
          1 June 2021 16: 33
          +4
          Quote: tatra
          all Stalinists are descendants of guardians

          That you, Irina, are by no means all, never said this. But the fact that they were is certain. Where can we do without them ... But I asked you a couple of questions, but I did not receive an answer: And someone, Irina, said that you need to know the past so as not to repeat its mistakes, that you cannot be Ivan who does not remember kinship? And you, then, are calling for this, right?
          Decently answer first, and then write your own, right?
          1. tatra
            tatra 1 June 2021 16: 42
            -5
            So YOU, the enemies of the communists, who seized the USSR, are "Ivans who do not remember kinship." What do you have from the history and culture of your centuries-old country, what are your great people and heroes from the history of your country? The centuries-old period of the Russian State before October begins with you and ends with the rule of the last Russian monarch, falsified by you for the sake of profit in the anti-Soviet system. You have slandered the Soviet period. To your anti-Soviet Perestroika, and to what you have done with the republics of the USSR and their peoples you have captured, you are all cowardly "not to blame."
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 1 June 2021 18: 02
          +5
          Here, you can immediately see the victim of anti-Soviet propaganda, unable to think independently, to analyze the incoming information.


          Irina, have you seen the victim of Soviet propaganda? If you haven't seen, then look in the nearest mirror. smile hi
        3. zenion
          zenion 6 June 2021 00: 22
          0
          tatra (Irina). From over the hill, or the ocean, an application comes in, a document is needed in this direction and business. And then the lucky man finds this document. He doesn't just find it, but he goes into his own hands. Of course, it may not be the original, but a copy, and so on. Nobody will let him check the paper, the freshness of the ink and who signed it. Any documents must bear this, this was on every document of Nazi Germany. That's right, stamp and signature. Without this, no one will believe anyone, like the treaty between Germany and the USSR, and there is no one there, no one who endorsed the rest of the little things. If there is no such thing, then you can add anything you want. In any report, there are always several signatures, that is, not just from the head, but confirmed.
      2. Glory1974
        Glory1974 1 June 2021 18: 13
        +10
        It is possible to forge1, 10,100 documents, but it is impossible to forge the MASS of documents that are cross-reference to this document.

        And no one fakes the whole mass. Relying on a couple of fake documents, they throw it into the press, write a couple of dissertations, form public opinion and voila, the necessary opinion is introduced into society.
        We observe this throughout our life: either the old communists are bad - they got sick, then the new communists got cold feet and changed their colors, and great liberals came. etc.
        What are the discussions on losses in the Second World War. Based on the same archives, researchers give completely different numbers. Apparently, who gets paid for what, then they write.
        1. kalibr
          1 June 2021 18: 32
          +1
          Quote: glory1974
          Relying on a couple of fake documents, they throw it into the press, write a couple of dissertations, form public opinion, and voila, the right opinion is introduced into society.

          Glory! Don't write what you don't know. Have you read at least one dissertation? You can't get by with a couple of fake documents. Once again: I have a textbook on "Public Opinion Management Technologies". For universities. You read ... not everything is as easy as you wrote.
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 2 June 2021 10: 15
            +5
            Have you read at least one dissertation? You can't get by with a couple of fake documents.

            Kyrgyz SSR, Osh region. In the 30s, a detachment of Red Army men defeated the gang of the Basmach Dzhanybek-Kazy. In the 90s, documents appeared from dusty archives, on the basis of which it was concluded that Dzhanybek-Kazy was a national hero and fighter for the independence of Kyrgyzstan. A monument is erected to him, the school begins to study his life and struggle. I didn’t read the dissertation in the Kyrgyz language, the publications in the press were enough.
            I don’t know how many fake documents it took, I suspect that probably not a single one was forged. They removed the real, signed by the leaders of the NKVD of those times, where the atrocities of the Basmachi were recorded, the number of civilians they killed. Instead, they left a list of the destroyed gang, which naturally says that all the killed farmers are from nearby villages, that is, peaceful peasants. I think that's all. The document is shown to a national historian with a "correct" worldview, and he begins to publish articles about the unfortunate Kyrgyz who were exterminated by the bloody regime.
            That is, I already see the result of falsification. I can also imagine how this was done in principle. It would be interesting for you, as a specialist, to write the details. But you are arguing that this is not possible.
            How so? There is a result, but there are no methods to achieve it?
            1. zenion
              zenion 6 June 2021 00: 45
              0
              Father's relatives will write like that. At first, they fought against gangs in Ukraine, successfully fought until the mid-twenties. The rest were finished off by the Ukrainians themselves when they wanted to live in peace. After that, they were asked to serve the country in the Near East, help the farmers live in peace and produce what the country needed. In 1927, they reached the Caspian Sea with detachments of volunteer children. Of course, there were people who were not allowed to live in peace or to feed their families. We joined the detachment and, starting from the Caspian Sea, headed east. On the way, convincing others that it is for your good. In such a way we reached Uzbekistan. And it was already in 1937. Everyone thinks it's time to go home, and then they are asked to serve in the Far East to help the main units, because they have experience, and let's go, or rather, we drove anywhere to the Far East, and there are already the Japanese. They made part of them snipers and part of reconnaissance detachments. Until 39, they were there and fought, again received awards and, of course, Mausers as a keepsake. Some were unlucky, they shot. But you can't go home without relatives, they waited when Lizer recovered and spent a month getting home to Ukraine. Dad told me that the whole Jewish town was joyful and of course Christians were present, friends. We rested a little and the war began. From the military registration and enlistment office, some of the relatives were told that they should protect their families. My sister told me they were bombed in Vapnyarka and constantly. At night they changed course and they ended up in Rostov in the morning. Dad went out to find out something and then a motorcyclist drove along the train and asked at every door. I drove to them and gave the name of the Pope. Daddy will be right back said sister. Dad came up and then a motorcyclist came up to him and handed the package. He saluted and left. The father went to the station to the chief. What he read there is unknown. But he went to the carriage where we were and told my mother and me you will go further without me, I have business. He gave us a can of bread with water and a piece of sausage, which is a part of those who had small children. There was a lorry and dad sat in it and almost until the end of the war he was not seen. He came to us after injuring a strong man in 1944. And he said that he was already healthy and had not been seen again, until he was again wounded in January 1945. In general, a wound in the leg in the kneecap put him out of action. He never liked to talk about the war and never told what he did there. I asked his best friend what they were together, uncle Grisha by the name of Pastukhov, eternal memory to him, what did dad do? And dad told you - he didn't tell, but mom told you, didn't tell, I can't tell you either, because I don't know. They were talking something in another room and only once I heard Uncle Grisha say to my father - save and save it so loudly.
      3. BAI
        BAI 1 June 2021 20: 45
        +5
        It is possible to forge1, 10,100 documents, but it is impossible to forge the MASS of documents that are cross-reference to this document.

        You don't need 100, there are key points that need to be falsified. It is impossible to alter the newspapers (although there is a White émigré fake with a link to an article in a French newspaper, no one can find this newspaper in any archive). At the same time, it is necessary to understand the falsified documents in such a way that the tendency to reverse by 180 degrees is impossible, but the necessary one must be strengthened. For example like this:

        Who can check and confirm (or refute) the well-known Pavlov's references? But this is the most reliable document about repressions. But written by order of the manual for a specific purpose. And all our officials stand on the fact that they give the management the information that the management wants to see.
        The repression is not in doubt. There were. But you can write 200, but you can write 2000.

        Who can guarantee that the numbers are correct and not edited? In Ukraine, this was the case with the number of victims of the "Holodomor", the situation was brought to the point of absurdity, according to the author of the Holodomor theory himself.

        By the way, at the expense of the archives. I have an acquaintance - a former FSO officer who, together with his subordinates, guarded the State Duma. And in the State Duma there is a library with modern and very old documents, in particular - the Time of Troubles. And this acquaintance somehow helped the head of the library, and for this he let him into the library, to any funds, while the subordinates of the FSOoshnik carried the shift.
        And there he was reading an ancient document about how the Poles were leaving the Kremlin. Written by a Pole. Well, everything is proud there: in formation, with banners and weapons, with a baggage train overflowing with gold. But then, without noticing it, he uttered a phrase that showed that this document was a fake. The document stated that "golden statues were taken out."
        There were no statues in Russia! Idols into the river, do not make yourself an idol, a filthy idol, etc. Even if they were brought to Russia, Ivan the Terrible, in a fit of religiosity, would have destroyed everything. The statues appeared at the time of Peter 1. That is, even though the document is ancient, it is fake. Or new and fake.
        1. kalibr
          2 June 2021 10: 51
          +1
          Quote: BAI
          And there he was reading an ancient document about how the Poles were leaving the Kremlin. Posted by Pole

          Are you serious? Did you read the text in Old Polish? FSO officer ... Well, then I read a document in Martian that earthlings are the grandchildren of Mars!
          1. BAI
            BAI 2 June 2021 12: 07
            +3
            Do you not admit the existence of a translation? It is not at all necessary to read the Egyptian hieroglyphs yourself, you can read the translation that is attached to the original. If a document is kept in the State Duma library, then it is primarily for the State Duma deputies. Do many deputies read Old Polish? When they show an audio recording on TV, besides the sound, why is the oscillogram of the conversation displayed on the screen? Who will read it? But the original sound recording is an oscillogram, and the sound is a translation into a form accessible to all.
            1. kalibr
              6 June 2021 18: 05
              +2
              Quote: BAI
              Do you not admit the existence of a translation?

              There are no translations of foreign texts in archives and libraries! And if someone does, then no one leaves the archive for themselves. This is money!
        2. ycuce234-san
          ycuce234-san 2 June 2021 20: 45
          +1
          Kazan campaigns 1547-50; 1552 year. - the statues could be their trophies, which were not melted down, for example. That is why Grozny didn’t care too much about them - a trophy golden idol lies in the underground chamber of the treasury and lies ... they don’t worship him there.
      4. your1970
        your1970 6 June 2021 17: 38
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Lots of documents! Human memory is not absolute. Those who fake something will always forget, miss, they simply cannot know everything. And then inconsistencies will come out and ... it will be both a scandal and a sensation.
        -If it was done, "forgering documents" would have crawled out on all kinds of talk shows for big money a long time ago ... "I faked the history of the USSR !!!" - info-bomb for the show
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 16: 45
      +4
      The tale of forgeries and falsifications, that of chronicles, that of archives, has already bothered worse not only bitter radish, but worse advertising on TV.
      I have already asked and will ask again: those who believe that the falsification was understood what the volume of this work is, what quality should be the specialists and their technical equipment, what are the costs of this business?
      Let's say in some archive there is an official certificate, certified by all authorities, that someone is not a scoundrel. But the authorities need to prove that he is a bastard and for this the certificate must be removed from the archive. This business is entrusted to you. Your actions?
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 1 June 2021 18: 08
        +8
        The tale of forgeries and falsifications, that of chronicles, that of archives, is already bored worse than a bitter radish

        It is impossible to falsify everything. But it is quite possible to place accents in the right way. All the people will not go to the archives to check whether this is true or not. Thus, with reference to 1-2 falsified documents, it is possible to form public opinion. And the truth will be forgotten in a generation.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 18: 16
          +6
          Quote: glory1974
          the truth will be forgotten in a generation

          The truth will only emerge in two generations, if you're lucky.
          In order to highlight accents in the archives, you don't have to appear - sculpt fakes on your knees - all the same
          Quote: glory1974
          people will not go to the archives to check

          Falsification in the archives may be needed only to mislead the professional researcher who visit these archives. Just in order to carry out this falsification, it will be necessary to attract a researcher with a higher qualification and work in several archives at once, several people ...
          There is a question at the end of my previous comment. Will you try to answer it?
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 2 June 2021 09: 58
            +5
            In order to highlight accents in the archives, you don't have to appear - sculpt fakes on your knees - all the same

            This is what they are doing. For truthfulness, 1-2 will be faked and enough. Then the press does.
            Falsification in the archives may be needed only to mislead the professional researcher who visit these archives.

            I have not dealt with falsifications, so I cannot give a reasoned answer to your question.
            But I can see the results perfectly. After the collapse of the USSR, archives began to be opened in all national republics, "new" scientists, based on the study of archives, began to write dissertations, advise politicians, and publish in the press. As a result, we get that Soviet soldiers and officers who fought against the Basmachi were murderers of civilians. And the Basmachi and their leaders are fighters for freedom and independence. How this is done technically, in principle, it is clear, I think there is no need to analyze all the nuances. The technology is clear.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 2 June 2021 10: 44
              +3
              Quote: glory1974
              Soviet soldiers and officers who fought against the Basmachism are the murderers of civilians

              Anything has happened. And sweeps were also carried out. They were definitely not white, fluffy and harmless. Certainly there were excesses - the death of civilians by mistake or by the unreasonable zeal of individual commanders.
              This is not the point. The point is that you can work with archives in different ways. You can, for example, search and find there documents about extraordinary events, collect, exaggerate a little and give it out as something ordinary.
              For example, in the report of the regiment commander:
              The squadron commander Petrov and the castle squadron commander Sidorov, while intoxicated, came into contact with a local native Zukhra Fasuloeva, upon her refusal to share the company with them, Sidorov grabbed her hand and she screamed. At Fasuloeva's cry, a minor Nurullo Fasuloev jumped out of one of the houses with a gun in his hands and fired a shot at Sidorov, wounding him in the shoulder. Shots from the service weapon of the squadron commander Petrov Fasuloev was killed on the spot.

              You can serve it in the style:
              The drunken squadron commander and his deputy molested the girl on the street, and when her younger brother stood up for her, they shot him.

              and nowhere to lie.
              Collect such cases from the heels and pass them off as a system. Then attach a genuine archive certificate on the number of civilians killed during the hostilities against the Basmachi, including those killed by the Basmachi themselves, but without mentioning this - only the total number of victims, and here is an oil painting:
              Russians get drunk, and hundreds of civilians are killed on the streets. Here are references from archives, reports, etc.
              The bottom line is that for this you absolutely do not need to falsify something in the archive itself. There is no need. To produce the proper effect, it is not the reliability of the information that matters, but the volume of the voice.
              At the same time, the archives calmly contain full volumes of objective information and no one touches them, does not destroy, does not falsify.
              1. Glory1974
                Glory1974 2 June 2021 11: 05
                +4
                The bottom line is that for this you absolutely do not need to falsify something in the archive itself. There is no need. To produce the proper effect, it is not the reliability of the information that matters, but the volume of the voice.

                I agree with you on 100%
                At the same time, the archives calmly contain full volumes of objective information and no one touches them, does not destroy, does not falsify.

                May be so. But why, then, the end is not put in various historical events. Historians rummage through the archives and give out completely contradictory versions. The same secret protocols to the non-aggression pact, the shooting of Polish officers, etc. The people who do not rummage in the archives are forced to choose the version that is closer to them. And where is the historical truth?
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 2 June 2021 12: 13
                  +1
                  Quote: glory1974
                  why then the end is not put in various historical events.

                  Because it hasn't burned out yet. Because historians also live in a common information space and are subject to its influence. Because as long as this or that purely historical issue has political significance, as long as it is fresh and relevant, as long as there are people interested in presenting it in a certain light, from a certain angle, the voices of genuine, impartial researchers will always sound quieter than the voices of screamers broadcasting what is beneficial for them for one reason or another. Because the historical truth, as a rule, is equally disadvantageous to any of the opposing sides in the political process.
                  The same story I made up about the squadron commander Petrov with his deputy can be presented like this:
                  Soviet servicemen were repeatedly attacked, including those armed by local residents, and were forced to use weapons for self-defense. So, for example, on the evening of October 12, 1931, in the village of Arkhar-ulus, a shot from a carbine wounded the castle mask of the 62nd cavalry regiment Sidorov. The attacker was killed by return fire from Sidorov and his squadron commander Petrov. TsGA, f. 136, l. 315

                  The same event. Two points of view. Do you think anyone who adheres to one or the other for political reasons, no matter what, is interested in the general population knowing the true content of the "regiment commander's report"?
                  When ALL political benefits are sucked dry from one issue or another by all possible sides, only then the voices of objective researchers become audible and at least somewhat accessible. You can hear them before, but, firstly, there are few of them, historians are also people and do not live in isolation, and secondly, it is extremely difficult to single them out from the chorus of screaming inadequacies. Personally, I do not undertake, and if I read something on a modern historical topic, I always set myself up to the fact that the author is lying and my main task is to understand or at least guess where exactly. smile
            2. kalibr
              2 June 2021 11: 01
              +1
              You don't need to falsify anything for this. Change the "angle of view" and that's it. Are you saying that the Basmachis were not fighters for freedom and independence? That the Soviet soldiers did not bring them enslavement with bayonets, did not destroy their faith and culture? We just look at it all differently ... and that's it!
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 2 June 2021 12: 21
                +1
                In order to “look differently,” you just need to shift the angle of view in one direction or another in advance, before the start of the study, either fulfilling someone's order, or being at the mercy of your own prejudices and beliefs.
        2. kalibr
          1 June 2021 18: 33
          +2
          Quote: glory1974
          Thus, with reference to 1-2 falsified documents, it is possible to form public opinion.

          The fact of the matter is that it is impossible!
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 2 June 2021 09: 52
            +5
            The fact of the matter is that it is impossible!

            Well, how can you not?
            Example. For the murder of Poles in Katyn, the Germans were convicted at the Nuremberg Tribunal. But 40 years later they get from the archive a certificate signed by Stalin, where it says "shoot the Poles on the territory of the pioneer camp from German weapons" monument. What is this if not falsification?
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 1 June 2021 19: 48
        +3
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        This business is entrusted to you. Your actions?

        I make a fake on the paper of those times (it was specially saved) and on a typewriter of that time, and then I take the case (once they gave an order, it means they let it in), carefully unlace it, removing the sheet with a seal at the ends of the lacing, remove the original, insert the fake and bring everything back to its original state. If necessary, I age the inserted sheets so that they do not differ from those in the case.
        And no one will know that I did it, especially if the case was brought to me and I did not sign in the register to receive it. And then you will wonder if it is original or fake, and you will hardly ever find out without special research, which no one will allow you to do.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 20: 09
          +4
          You have pierced several times.
          You have not looked at who requested this document before you. He may have copies.
          You have not examined the document itself - by whom it was drawn up, in how many copies, to whom it was intended, who got acquainted with it before it was put into the archive. Copies of documents can be stored anywhere and you also need to calculate and replace them with appropriate fakes. Moreover, copies will be stored in different places, in different conditions. Before you go to the archive, you need to check all these places and prepare forgeries in accordance with the conditions for storing the originals.
          You have not analyzed on the basis of what this document was drawn up: an order, an order, and what legal and other consequences it should have entailed in the rest of the document flow. Roughly speaking, what kind of pieces of paper he was generated and what he himself gave birth to.
          In general, the result of your actions will be the opposite of what you expected. The researcher who came there after you and went a little further will reveal the substitution in one fell swoop, and even raise the buch, they say the document is clearly replaced. This will attract interest, they will find a genuine copy and ... Well, consider the failure of the operation and an incomplete official job for you. smile
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 1 June 2021 20: 26
            0
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            You have pierced several times.

            It’s not for you to judge this, as I understand it, you didn’t do it yourself.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            You have not looked at who requested this document before you. He may have copies.

            On the reverse side it is written how many copies were and where they were sent, and on the title page the number of the copy is indicated - and what is the problem with finding others?
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            You have not examined the document itself - by whom it was drawn up, in how many copies, to whom it was intended, who got acquainted with it before it was put into the archive.

            Do not fantasize - the fake performer will never do this because he will be given a prepared text that will be prepared by other people who cannot even know why they are preparing it.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Moreover, copies will be stored in different places, in different conditions.

            A huge number of documents were produced in a single copy, and a copy, if it was sewn into the case, was destroyed over time along with the case - you simply do not know that there are transitional cases with originals, but there are those where copies are stored, and their shelf life is much less. So you are tortured to look for a copy - it could have been destroyed a long time ago along with the case of current documents.

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            In general, the result of your actions will be the opposite of what you expected.

            Judging by some of the fakes that surfaced in the West, the result just for us turned out to be just the opposite, and no one will give us an excuse for this.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The researcher who came there after you and went a little further will reveal the substitution in one fell swoop, and even raise the buch, they say the document is clearly replaced.

            Just do not tell tales - our fakes, which were preparing the special services for the work of agents, had so many degrees of protection that an ordinary sheet in the archive does not even have a trace. And what can a "researcher" open if he first sees a document in a file, which is no different from others, with all account numbers, and reads the text for the first time? He will not open a fig, and will not even know that I, for example, worked with him.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Well, consider that the failure of the operation and incomplete service is guaranteed to you.

            I don’t know, I don’t know, but we knew how to make fake passports, which could not be distinguished from the real ones, even by the special services of the enemy, and the absence of failures in their verification is evidence of this.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 20: 42
              +2
              Quote: ccsr
              Do not fantasize - the fake performer will never do this because he will be given a prepared text that will be prepared by other people who cannot even know why they are preparing it.

              Well, you already have other people ... That won't work. Responsible for the operation - you, you look for these people, instruct them, give directions. So count who you will need to use, in what quantity, etc.
              Quote: ccsr
              A huge number of documents were produced in a single copy,

              Let's say yours too. And the accompanying documents? The help says "someone A not a scoundrel." You change to "git". In another case, in a neighboring fund there is a document in which it is written that, on the basis of certificate No. ... from ... someone A is not a scoundrel, therefore ... And in the third case, in another archive, in two cards - a series of documents (for example, agent messages), on the basis of which a certificate is written that someone A is not a scoundrel. What are you going to do with this?
              Quote: ccsr
              it could have been destroyed a long time ago along with the case of current documents.

              Please attach a reference to get rid of it if the authorities ask you later.
              Quote: ccsr
              And what the "researcher" can reveal if he sees the document for the first time

              And a researcher will never be satisfied with one document. He will go further - to do everything that I wrote to you. What you should have done. You should be smarter and more prudent than ANYONE who was interested or theoretically could be interested in this topic.
              Well, the last.
              Quote: ccsr
              It's not up to you to judge this,

              How do you know?
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 1 June 2021 21: 08
                -2
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Well, you already have other people ... That won't work. Responsible for the operation - you, you look for these people, instruct them, give directions.

                In fact, the one who prepares the "operation" - even laughing at this word, is only the executor of someone else's will, and he will not be allowed to those who will technically perform it - this is so accepted in certain circles. So do not invent something that does not even exist.
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Not a scoundrel. What are you going to do with this?

                In the new document I will hammer in the text that "as it turned out, according to reliable data, someone A is not a hero, but a scoundrel, as reported by the source B, who cited facts in his report No. ... from ..." and so on.
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Please attach a reference to get rid of it if the authorities ask you later.

                The list of destroyed cases will be presented to you according to the act of the commission, and not a certificate. Are you in general familiar with Soviet office work, do you really know how this is all done and how the commission for checking secret office work works?

                Quote: Trilobite Master
                You should be smarter and more prudent than ANYONE who was interested or theoretically could be interested in this topic.

                Let him first receive an admission, and then we will decide how he will determine the original document or not without special equipment.
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                How do you know?

                According to your comments.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 21: 13
                  +3
                  Everything is clear with you. You don’t know a thing about operational or archival work, and besides, you’re accustomed to the fact that others think and act for you. Keep up the good work and you will be happy. laughing
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 1 June 2021 21: 19
                    -1
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    You don’t know a thing about operational or archival work, and besides, you’re accustomed to the fact that others think and act for you.

                    You are apparently a great "expert" in this, though I did not understand what level, but I think that you hardly had the opportunity to work with the documents that I had to see. And in matters of their destruction, you hardly have the same experience as mine. And you can tell the rest to Shpakovsky, although he does not know that even the party archives are still not all declassified, and he will never receive access to them. But you can dream ...
                    1. kalibr
                      2 June 2021 15: 07
                      +1
                      Quote: ccsr
                      he does not know that even the party archives are still not all declassified,

                      Tsekovskys - yes, there is no access to them at all. My level is archives OK.
            2. kalibr
              2 June 2021 11: 03
              -1
              You can make fake passports and money ... and even documents. It's all about cross-referencing. Not a single document just appears. And if it does appear, it is always very suspicious. And the more he is promoted by the media, the more suspicious it is. Is it really incomprehensible?
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 2 June 2021 12: 50
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                You can make fake passports and money ... and even documents. It's all about cross-referencing. Not a single document just appears.

                A document like the famous "Secret Protocol" has appeared - well, what can you prove using it, tell us in more detail. Doubtful documents have also appeared about the executed Poles, and what will prove that they are fake will somehow change the attitude of the Poles themselves to the Katyn events?
                Quote: kalibr
                And the more he is promoted by the media, the more suspicious it is. Is it really incomprehensible?

                You, a hardened propagandist of the times of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, is it really incomprehensible that the authenticity of these documents does not bother anyone now, because the main thing is to form a negative image, be it the Soviet regime, or Trump's election race. It is ridiculous to hear from you such "profound conclusions" - in the most active period of your activity you were engaged in propaganda, and you sold everything that was directed to you from above. Or did you always keep a fig in your pocket during your reports?
                1. kalibr
                  2 June 2021 15: 01
                  -1
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Nobody cares about the authenticity of these documents now, because the main thing is to form a negative image, be it the Soviet regime, or Trump's election race.

                  Why, then, should the documents be forged? A negative image can be easily formed even on perfectly legal articles in the Pravda newspaper! I picked up examples of her wobbling back and forth, left and right, and everything is OK. And less hassle and more effect! Where's the fig? I didn't even think about anything bad then. The same were the brainwashed ones, like yours. "Temporary difficulties", "vestiges", "the threat of imperialism" - but "our party at the helm, millions of shoulders ... will find a way out."
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 2 June 2021 18: 27
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Why, then, should the documents be forged?

                    For the persuasiveness of the lie, which though to instill in the masses.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    A negative image can be easily formed even on perfectly legal articles in the Pravda newspaper!

                    You're lying, because Pravda was one of the most honest publications - they just didn't write the whole truth, and what they wrote was 99% reliable.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    I didn't even think about anything bad then.

                    Yes, I understood that after 1991 you burned your party card - apparently you were afraid not to find a job in your profile.
                    Quote: kalibr
                    The same were the brainwashed ones, like yours.

                    This is not at all the case - I was engaged in technology, and people like you didn’t give a damn to me, we didn’t listen to you much. By the way, I have been to your Penza several times, in the very center of the city, where the electrotechnical research institute worked, and I have behind me real products that were used in our army, but only words remained from you, and even then you renounced them - as they say, feel difference.
                    1. kalibr
                      2 June 2021 18: 29
                      -1
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Yes, I understood that after 1991 you burned your party card - apparently you were afraid not to find a job in your profile.

                      What have you left as a keepsake. It is foolish to burn what cannot be restored. Is it really not clear. Fools burn ...
                    2. kalibr
                      2 June 2021 18: 33
                      -1
                      With your real products you remind me of this character from the movie "Tiger Tamer". The very moment when he tells her that "they are doing business, they carry kerosene." You can carry it too. Each of us has our own niche in society. But words are power. It is strange that you do not understand this. More than one generation of Soviet boys grew up on mine, including those who became engineers like you.
                    3. kalibr
                      2 June 2021 18: 37
                      0
                      Quote: ccsr
                      You're lying, because Pravda was one of the most honest publications - they just didn't write the whole truth, and what they wrote was 99% reliable.

                      There was a series of articles "Poisoned Feather" here. There was about "the most honest edition". Today is one thing, tomorrow is another. Perfectly you can mold anything out of it. You just didn't read it from 1918 to 1953. And then selectively, by years ... By the way, tomorrow I'll just go to the archives ... I'll do something interesting on the basis of the articles in Pravda. You will see for yourself ... And there will be no need to look at any documents or forge.
                    4. kalibr
                      2 June 2021 18: 41
                      -1
                      Quote: ccsr
                      For the persuasiveness of the lie, which though to instill in the masses.

                      You write it correctly. But only this is troublesome and expensive. Our masses are not worth it. It can be simpler and cheaper ... I wrote about this once. For a long time, really.
            3. gsev
              gsev 4 June 2021 03: 17
              0
              Quote: ccsr
              It’s not for you to judge this, as I understand it, you didn’t do it yourself.

              For some time, an acquaintance told me how members of their large family in Soviet times carried out historical work to find out the fate of their relative, information about whom the authorities deliberately falsified. They managed to get pretty close to solving the problem, unlike professionals. Output; the professional falsification that you cite as an example can be successful if it has not attracted the attention of an obstinate and inquisitive researcher. Moreover, it is not necessary for such a researcher to be a professional.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 4 June 2021 11: 43
                0
                Quote: gsev
                Output; the professional falsification that you cite as an example can be successful if it has not attracted the attention of an obstinate and inquisitive researcher.

                Even if the falsification attracts the attention of some researcher, it is not yet a fact that he will be admitted to the materials that he wants to study. Especially if it concerns several departments with different technical means of encryption, and where official correspondence was classified. And most importantly, a huge number of cases were simply destroyed according to acts, and not always even with a detailed study of how interesting the documents stored there are. I myself drove the valise bags to the Altufevsk incineration plant, where I saw with my own eyes how they slowly go into the furnace, and this happened more than once.
                Quote: gsev
                For some time, an acquaintance told me how members of their large family in Soviet times carried out historical work to find out the fate of their relative, information about whom the authorities deliberately falsified.

                My cousin just studied the archives in her city, and we learned about the fate of our grandfather even more than the relatives knew and told us. Indeed, now everything has become much easier than it was in the days of the USSR, when it was difficult to access the archives.
                1. gsev
                  gsev 4 June 2021 16: 46
                  0
                  Quote: ccsr
                  And most importantly, a huge number of cases were simply destroyed according to acts, and not always even with a detailed study of how interesting the documents stored there are.

                  The science of history (the science of truth and lies) consists of 2 sections: the ability to find sources of information and the ability to analyze them and determine the veracity of these sources. In principle, the events of 50 years ago are indifferent or insignificant for the viability of the state. It is common knowledge that the KGB and the FSB have a fairly large amount of information. But the entire experience of the Russian state from S.V. Zubatova to this day says that due to the inability of the detective agencies to correctly use and analyze this information in stable periods of history, such as today, the state security agencies are simply prohibited from conducting any independent activity based on the information they received.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 4 June 2021 17: 49
                    0
                    Quote: gsev
                    that due to the inability of the detective agencies to correctly use and analyze this information in stable periods of history, such as today, the state security agencies are simply prohibited from conducting any independent activity based on the information they received.

                    Not only because of this - you've probably heard about the "Mitrokhin archive" and how it ended up in the West. So I think for the most part they are afraid of leaks, so they limit the number of admitted to the archives. Well, it should be borne in mind that among the FSB employees there are too few of those who generally know how to work with archives - so there is no need to distract them from their main work, this can be done by pensioners.
          2. kalibr
            1 June 2021 20: 27
            +2
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            Roughly speaking, what kind of pieces of paper he was generated and what he himself gave birth to.

            You are absolutely right. In principle, forging one document does not cost anything, or rather, it is expensive and difficult only technically, only it will give nothing. But even that is difficult. Where to get the paper of that year, where to get the typewriter, where to get the tape, ink of that time and how to protect it all from the radiation, which is full of all around. If the document is serious, the very first spectral analysis will reveal its fake nature. And frivolous ... nobody needs nafig!
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 20: 44
              +4
              I'm not talking about this, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Let's say that in the USSR they did not spare money for the production of counterfeits ... But how much money needs to be done in order to change only one certificate ... Unfortunately, people do not understand this.
      3. BAI
        BAI 1 June 2021 20: 54
        +2
        What quality should be the specialists and their technical equipment, what are the general costs for this business?

        Very high quality. Do you have doubts about the competence and qualifications of the KGB? Moreover, we are talking about a specific task, not rewriting the entire history of the Germans. You just need to add the negative, where there is already a negative. And you will automatically get a wonderful cross-confirmation.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 21: 01
          +4
          I already wrote today - archives, they are for professionals.
          To create a negative, you do not need to go to the archive, you can just cook up a fake at home on your knee and post the scan on the Internet. People will not go to check.
          There is no point in such a difficult and highly professional work, when everything is decided much easier.
          1. BAI
            BAI 1 June 2021 21: 08
            +4
            There is no point in such a difficult and highly professional work, when everything is decided much easier.

            To defame the history and achievements of the USSR is a lot of difficult work, which Internet amateurs with Photoshop cannot do. A few blunders and inaccuracies and everything will go to dust. For how many people now adhere to the point of view that Stalin and the USSR are evil? Especially outside the Russian Federation. And how many were there before the 20th Congress and before the collapse of the USSR?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 21: 16
              +5
              The main thing here is not the quality of the forgeries, but their quantity and the volume of the voice to which the detractor broadcasts. The clearest example is Zuleikha. Literally weak, the book became a bestseller before hitting the shelves. laughing And no archival links for you. What for? smile
              1. BAI
                BAI 1 June 2021 21: 46
                +6
                Goebbels's fake, about the fact that bread was kicked in the besieged Leningrad in Smolny, is still being repeated. And a film is being made on this topic. This means that even one talentedly fabricated fake affects the worldview of a very large number of people and the game is worth the candle.
                And if there are several of them? For example, there is a real document of some village council A, that several people died of hunger. One document. And let's borrow the same documents from the village councils B, C, D. And from different regions? And with us, an isolated case will immediately become a systemic one. And the geography of hunger will expand, and the number of victims. The task is simplified if we consider that the documents are secret and, by definition, in a single copy.
                I repeat, we are not talking about "rewriting history" by the Germans, this nonsense is not considered. We are talking about carefully planned ideological sabotage carried out at the state level.
                Have you ever been embarrassed by the publication of "declassified documents" bearing the stamp "destroy within 48 hours"? How did they survive? Originals?
                And then "historians" will operate with them and form public opinion.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 1 June 2021 23: 09
                  +2
                  I repeat once again - in order to do this, you do not need to go into the archives. The main thing is to shout louder. And what nonsense is not so important. Veles's book, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion have already been exposed a hundred times, taken away piece by piece, left no ashes, but still there are people who believe in it.
                  1. kalibr
                    2 June 2021 11: 06
                    -1
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    I repeat once again - in order to do this, you do not need to go into the archives. The main thing is to shout louder. And what nonsense is not so important. Veles's book, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion have already been exposed a hundred times, taken away piece by piece, left no ash, but still there are people who believe in it

                    For example, Michael does not understand people that it is not the information itself that is important, and not even the way it is presented. The DENSITY OF THE INFORMATION FLOW is important. Density! And in order to create it, you don't even need to go to the archive at all!
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 3 June 2021 14: 09
                      +1
                      You are absolutely right. The flow density is of course critical. The loudness of the scream is just one of its terms.
                  2. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 3 June 2021 13: 38
                    +2
                    The main thing is to shout louder. And what nonsense is not so important.

                    Sorry to interfere. I read the whole thread with interest. I agree with your phrase, Mikhail. Fortunately, there are a dime a dozen of pseudo-"historians" now - to take even Rezun and Ponosenkov.
                    Colleagues, you don't have to go far here - our forum sometimes "works" according to the same principles ... hi Whoever shouts "more patriotic" louder will get a plus! request
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 3 June 2021 14: 20
                      +2
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      Sorry to interrupt.

                      Come on, what is really there ... smile
                      As Vyacheslav Olegovich correctly wrote above, the density of the information flow decides everything. The conventional Samsonov with like-minded people (if such a word is applicable to those who think with difficulty) creates his own stream and tries to condense it as much as possible, the conventional Shpakovsky with his like-minded people is his own. The difference in intellectual potentials of both creates tension, which in the real world manifests itself as pluses and minuses. Pure physics, Nikolai. laughing
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 3 June 2021 14: 31
                        +3
                        The difference in intellectual potentials of both creates tension, which in the real world manifests itself as pluses and minuses. Pure physics, Nikolai.

                        It would be better if we all learned to communicate, and not stick out emotional opinions ... recourse
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 3 June 2021 14: 41
                        +3
                        Showing emotions is also a form of communication. Many people come here for this very reason.
                      3. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 3 June 2021 14: 51
                        +3
                        Showing emotions is also a form of communication. Many people come here for this very reason.

                        Exactly, exactly ... And, as you say, often the quiet voices of knowledgeable people are not heard behind the screams ...
                    2. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 3 June 2021 22: 42
                      +1
                      I have always believed that change is just as important as lessons.
                    3. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 4 June 2021 09: 16
                      +2
                      I have always believed that change is just as important as lessons.

                      Certainly, like a change of activity and "letting off steam". Only this can be done in different ways. You can joke in a friendly way, or you can swear.
                    4. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 4 June 2021 09: 58
                      +1
                      Well-honed behavior, if they swear, is also not superfluous.
                    5. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 4 June 2021 10: 05
                      +2
                      Well-honed behavior, if they swear, is also not superfluous.

                      This is the lot of the few. I can't do that - I hit my emotions. Mikhail will push anyone away - subtly and with irony. Sergei, I didn’t notice you at all. drinks
                    6. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 4 June 2021 15: 46
                      +1
                      As far as I remember, the Law of the Jungle taught like this: "Hit first, then speak up."
    3. ccsr
      ccsr 2 June 2021 13: 00
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      Have you ever been embarrassed by the publication of "declassified documents" bearing the stamp "destroy within 48 hours"? How did they survive? Originals?

      I have never seen such an inscription on documents, because within 48 hours it was necessary to return the document to the cipher organ, in which the further fate of the document was decided.
    4. gsev
      gsev 4 June 2021 03: 29
      0
      Quote: BAI
      This means that even one talentedly fabricated fake affects the worldview of a very large number of people and the game is worth the candle.

      A successful fake, like propaganda, must touch some hidden strings of the mentality of a large group of people. In this regard, its vitality is determined by other real factors independent of the fake. For example, in the 1990s, films of German propagandists of Hitler's times were relatively popular in Russia. But if the fake is made contrary to the popular mentality, then it is doomed not even to exposure, but to ridicule. For example, as an attempt to present Baron Ungern as the bearer of the knightly-monarchical idea. A fake can only live in a society whose consciousness is deprived of access to normal information and insurmountable obstacles have been set up for people capable of exposing it.
  • kalibr
    2 June 2021 11: 04
    -2
    Quote: BAI
    And how many were there before the 20th Congress and before the collapse of the USSR?

    Lot! Only they kept quiet about it!
  • ccsr
    ccsr 1 June 2021 21: 26
    +1
    Quote: BAI
    Very high quality. Do you have doubts about the competence and qualifications of the KGB?

    I think that the local "specialists" can hardly imagine who was involved in this in the KGB, and what level were those employees who prepared "genuine" documents for the needs of the special services. So it would not be difficult for them to concoct a "genuine" document of the 20s and 40s, so spectral analysis would not help either, because they would have used original sheets of those years, and the paint (ink) of that time, which either kept, or received from the original documents of that time.
  • ccsr
    ccsr 1 June 2021 19: 37
    +2
    Quote: BAI
    The archives must be approached with caution. I recently found out that there were 2 waves of falsification of archives.

    There was also a third wave - the Yakovlev wave, which caused even more damage than those that were before.
    Quote: BAI
    The fakes were made by government agencies, with absolute quality.

    There is nothing surprising in this - our special services have experience in preparing any documents, and this was necessary for operational work abroad. So Yakovlev knew this and attracted specialists to make fakes, which later turned out to be "accidentally" abroad.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 1 June 2021 16: 19
    +5
    Another word about the exclusivity of "professional historians" because they have the skills to work with archives.

    Well, for example, here is a document on the recruitment of skilled foreign workers in the USSR. That is, there was not only a shortage of engineers, but even just workers, but qualified ones!



    True, someone who is in the slightest degree familiar with the history of the USSR would not be surprised at the lack of skilled workers, but not Vyacheslav Shpakovsky, as a "professional historian" he does not know such "little things" and does not want to know and is always surprised.

    I knew about this in my childhood (76-83) I read about this Negro, how at first other American workers tried to trick him, about his qualifications.
    1. kalibr
      1 June 2021 16: 31
      +2
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      I knew about this in my childhood (76-83 years)

      Happy for you. I was so unlucky, my childhood was earlier than 54-70 years.
  • andrewkor
    andrewkor 1 June 2021 16: 22
    +4
    At the dawn of perestroika, he subscribed to Voenno-Istoricheskiy Zhurnal and Rodina. I found award documents about my father and uncle for "Memory of the People". It will not be enough for a thesis, so "the family must be fed.
    1. Van 16
      Van 16 1 June 2021 17: 54
      +4
      "Memory of the People"

      Also on this site I found quite a lot about my grandfathers, award lists, extracts from orders, combat path ... I downloaded everything, printed everything out to the family archive. And then of all the documents for one grandfather there was one letter, one photo, and a funeral ...
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 17: 57
    +5
    Good afternoon, Vyacheslav Olegovich!)))
    ... he was walking along the road with some kind of protest poster ... barefoot! And for some reason this most of all alarmed everyone and caused a lively controversy among the parody functionaries. There was only one such. But barefoot. And that's why he made a lot of noise by this. To be honest, I did not understand why it was the same then in 1985, and I still cannot understand it now.


    Because it was a performance. Remember how a certain Pavlensky nailed himself something to the paving stones of Red Square? As a symbol of the fact that this square is here, it deprives him of his vitality. The character you described with his bare feet seemed to declare that, they say, we are not a well-fed society, hungry in the stomach, hungry in spirit. And both characters counted on the attention of the foreign press, which means on the monetization of their actions, but they also remained in the memory of the citizens. Who remembers the content of the posters? Nobody! A performance based on the principle "it is better to see once than to read a poster a hundred times" - remember. A spectacle, which, perhaps, will be followed by bread, bought for 30 pieces of silver, and the subconscious mind of the audience, at least a little, will change in the direction needed by the "sufferer"
    1. kalibr
      1 June 2021 18: 35
      +2
      Quote: depressant
      Performance

      It's funny. Somehow I didn't think about it ...
      1. depressant
        depressant 1 June 2021 18: 53
        +4
        Yes, there were such performances in the past thirty years, which is a shame to say wassat
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 18: 50
    +7
    There is such an American city of Tulsa, Oklahoma.
    It was 1921. The mayor of the city is either an obvious Kukleklanist, or by convictions such, and all the whites there were like that. And somehow, miraculously, in a city that hates blacks, a large and prosperous black district was formed - the largest and most prosperous in America. What actually happened there, we can only guess. But the situation gradually escalated, and because of the unproven rape of a white girl by a black guy, a terrible thing finally happened.
    On May 31 and June 1, 1921, the black quarter was completely destroyed by the pogromists, that is, within XNUMX hours - the troops participated, bombs were dropped from the planes. Hundreds of blacks were killed and wounded. Monstrous, huh? But everything was classified.
    Publicly about this tragic story in the United States began to speak only many years later, around 1975, and only now was it included in the history textbook. By the centenary.
    But everything was in the archives, but there was no access. Obviously, from considerations: there is no need to overcharge, one must think about the interests of the country as a whole. Well, would the newspapers have shouted about this in the crisis decade before World War II, or even worse, during the hostilities, and what would have happened? No one wants to exacerbate the internal political situation, weakening America.
    I believe that access to some kind of archival material depends on the state of the domestic political and international situation. Moreover, access is regulated in the interests of power structures. It was, is and will be.
    Another thing is that access is open, but try and take it.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 1 June 2021 22: 06
      +5
      On May 31 and June 1, 1921, the black quarter was completely destroyed by the pogromists, that is, within XNUMX hours - the troops participated, bombs were dropped from the planes. Hundreds of blacks were killed and wounded. Monstrous, huh? But everything was classified.

      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, please do not think that I am prejudiced against you, but the massacre in Tulsa was not secret, it is you exaggerating the colors. It was not customary to talk about her, let's say.
      Although President Warren J. Harding at the University of Lincoln spoke about the event just three days later, the first book about the event was published in 1922, and his dissertation was defended in 1946.
      1. depressant
        depressant 1 June 2021 22: 45
        +3
        Dear Victor Nikolaevich! love )))
        It seems that I completely tortured you with my Jesuit nagging - I'm very sorry! Never mind)))
        And about Tulsa, I knew you would say that. Here's how to arrange the case so that journalists do not even try to take materials from the archive and regularly raise the issue in the press, seek a court of some kind?
        There are titles of candidates and doctors of military sciences. Can you find many of their dissertations on the Internet? Who will issue a serious military dissertation to an ordinary citizen at his request?
        Tulsa - from this category, the military took part there. There, the military used aircraft to bomb their citizens. The neighborhoods were on fire. They bombed, already then realizing that it would have to be hidden. To defend the dissertation - for God's sake, they were allowed. Shouting about it - no. Society, having committed a shameful deed, was not yet ready to answer for it. And it would be necessary if the press raised a long howl. Who would be in charge? The president. Did he need it? Not. The editors of the publications understood and still understand what is possible and what is not. Accordingly, a conclusion is drawn about the archive: do no harm!
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 2 June 2021 06: 43
          +6
          There, the military used aviation to bomb their citizens.

          The military did not bomb. Civilians threw homemade products from private planes. And the army was not there at all. The National Guard was brought in there to stop the massacre.
          https://www.okhistory.org/research/forms/freport.pdf
  • ee2100
    ee2100 1 June 2021 19: 05
    +8
    "Historical knowledge: doors wide open and ... locked" - another lament of the Penza historian or how hard life is for historians. And in the archives of the queue, and they take money for copies, bribes and you can get acquainted with the materials only in person.
    Themselves chose the profession. am
    If the author does not write about weapons and crafts, then you cannot make out what about.
    Found a document: "Party document on the recruitment of foreign specialists. RGASPI F. 17 Op. 114 D. 257 L. 140" and what is wrong with the fact that qualified personnel were recruited abroad? Or is the word "recruiting" appealing?
    Recruitment is a system of recruiting a job (service) for a certain period of time.
    If the state secreted something, then immediately a liberal rebound towards Marxism-Leninism
    "In fact, the most serious covenant of V. I. Lenin was violated."
    It was this contingent who wrote denunciations!
    Although, as the author writes, human is not alien to him
    "Although interesting. Strawberry. But distracting!"
    Well, as always, the author's optimistic conclusion:
    "To read everything ... there is neither time nor energy. Even just leafing through thick folders with documents - it takes time!"
    There is no time, but you hold on! And then there is even more optimism:
    "And we still have to sour in the swamp of such a strange situation."
    The state taught and it was all in vain! There are no results of labor.
    Graduation from history faculty of one of the universities



    Then, in retirement, some of them will beat themselves in the chest with their left back foot and shout that they are historians!
    1. kalibr
      1 June 2021 20: 40
      -3
      Is there something you want to prove to me, Alexander? To begin with, defend a thesis on history (no matter which one), then publish 40 scientific and popular scientific publications, well, there are about five grants from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation - we will do without them, since the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation has now been merged with the RFBR, which made it difficult to obtain them, then, let's say would be 40 scientific articles (see E-lab), then 2000 popular science ...
      https://правдинформ.рф/modules.php?name=Laid&keyw=Вячеслав%20Шпаковский
      http://ru-an.info/author.php?rid=3863
      http://alternathistory.com/tag/vyacheslav-shpakovskij/
      https://www.pravda.ru/author/shpakovskijj_vjacheslav/
      https://oko-planet.su/history/historydiscussions/451543-istoriya-o-kamne.html
      https://www.popmech.ru/author/vyacheslav-shpakovskiy/
      https://naukatehnika.com/files/vse_zhurnaly/2020/12.20/NiT-12.20.pdf
      then ... perhaps I will pay some attention to your words. So far, you have 4 articles here. So there is something to strive for!
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 1 June 2021 20: 49
        +7
        Vyacheslav, I didn't want to write, but you forced me to. You shouldn't boast about your "works". And a dissertation too. Write about weapons and castles, you are good at it. Trust me (more than 80 published works in the same time as yours).
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 1 June 2021 22: 26
          +4
          Just yesterday I re-read your works known to me with great pleasure, Sergei. I thought that you are a versatile and cultured person. And also noted to myself your love for order and systematics while preserving the material good about the past.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 1 June 2021 22: 47
            +4
            Good evening!
            I really did not like how Shpakovsky answered you today. None of my business, but not pleasant.
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 2 June 2021 07: 05
              +2
              Quote: ee2100
              Good evening! I really did not like how Shpakovsky answered you today. None of my business, but not pleasant.

              good morning! Answers like this are predictable. hi laughing and do not surprise, do not upset. In general, most of those answers are self-promotion, frequent listing, for example, which is impossible if at the same time you do not find a reason to remind your opponent about the lack of a dissertation.
              However, speaking of a dissertation, one should always indicate the year of its writing and the other country where it was written, as well as the membership of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, so that everything would be clear.
        2. kalibr
          2 June 2021 11: 13
          -3
          We, Sergei, have different works. And then, due to the modesty, I simply did not begin to count all the scientific publications that I have in the department. We've had a rating since ... 2005. The norm is 25 articles in 5 years in peer-reviewed journals, 5 of them in the VAK and Scopus editions, 1 monograph, 1-2 manuals. I have always covered the standards. Three times five ... then three more last years ... So let us not be measured with pipiski. You have your own science, I have my own. I do not belittle yours ...
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 2 June 2021 19: 17
            +2
            As for the measurements, I was not the first to start. I had to answer, so I answered. You can leave your cathedral rubbish with you. So I had to put in place a mischievous propagandist, who never existed. Each of us has chosen the area of ​​application of our powers. Your favorite pastime is to loudly announce to everyone that translating a foreign guidebook with mistakes is a tremendous job, but writing a PhD in social science in the time of the late Brezhnev and early Gorby is generally a feat. You are not belittling me (and it will not work), you are belittling the rest of the readers with your narcissism. By the way, was the Soros grant also worked out?
            1. kalibr
              2 June 2021 20: 00
              -2
              Quote: Aviator_
              By the way, was the Soros grant also worked out?

              Of course, He was given to the book "Knights of the East". And on it it was necessary to read a course of lectures on the book in one of the universities in the country. I chose Novosibirsk then. It was a very interesting trip.
            2. kalibr
              2 June 2021 20: 09
              -2
              What to do, Sergei! We work for 80% of citizens. Thank you for 20%, but, alas, they are few. And these people are not always good with memory (however, 20% are also not always excellent), and they do not know the specifics of many types of work, they have to remind them. And - yes, many of what you called is indeed a very laborious and not simple occupation. You judge superficially because you have a different direction. That's all. And putting me in my place is thankless. We work in different fields, so this is simply impossible. You will endure me until the end of the allotted century.
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 1 June 2021 20: 54
        +5
        Personally, I'm not going to prove anything.
        In the place of the answer, you, as always, cringe, hiding behind past merits.
        You continue to write nonsense, and I continue to speak freely about it.
        Good Luck!
      3. BAI
        BAI 1 June 2021 21: 50
        +5
        well, there are about five grants from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation - we can do without them

        Why did you decide not to remember the Soros grant?
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 1 June 2021 22: 20
          +3
          Quote: BAI
          well, there are about five grants from the Russian Humanitarian Science Foundation - we can do without them

          Why did you decide not to remember the Soros grant?

          wassat Yes Yes! How can it be without him? We now know, and those who came later may not know
          1. kalibr
            2 June 2021 20: 13
            -2
            Quote: Reptiloid
            Yes Yes! How can it be without him?

            The role of Tabaka, Dmitry, is available to even the most mediocre people. But it does not honor them. Grant Soros is good! I made money for the country. Well, the book "Knights of the East" can be read on the Web. So hints of ... "working off" with a negative connotation are not accepted. First, find out what's "wrong" ...
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 2 June 2021 21: 41
              +2
              winkAha! Themselves called me, and as I wrote my thoughts ---- so at once --- Tobacco!
              They decided to repeat the speech of VVP in the comments. ?? funny. And I really like Sergey's lyrics. Why can't I say this? And I like that during his life he collected a huge amount of information about the life of the country and saved it, systematizing it. Moreover, it is completely disinterested. Probably, it is difficult for you to understand. ...
              And I really had to check everything on tablets (changes) before 01.06.
        2. kalibr
          2 June 2021 11: 14
          -3
          And what about remembering what is forbidden? There is no return to this.
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 1 June 2021 19: 09
    +3
    unless all of our archives are open as soon as possible to literally everyone

    [quote Well, and "to the heap" it is necessary to remove all the secrecy labels from the documents of the war period [/ quote]

    This will never happen. History as knowledge about the past and history as social mythology are two different things.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 1 June 2021 20: 45
    +4
    The Twelve Chairs were sometimes printed, then condemned for slandering our system.

    From this place in more detail. Who condemned this work and when?
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 1 June 2021 22: 44
      +3
      I read an interesting article, analysis of who is O. Bender by nationality. It turns out Russian or Ukrainian. Rather the first.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 2 June 2021 08: 19
        +3
        I read an interesting article, analysis of who is O. Bender by nationality.

        The only available link is that he is the son of a Turkish citizen, so he is also related to Erdogan, hardly to Ataturk.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 2 June 2021 22: 19
          +1
          It's not that simple. Bender's surname is not particularly Russian. According to sources, during the tsarist era in Odessa, many took Turkish citizenship, which gave a lot of things, including not serving in the army and moving freely in the south. But, there is a clue in the novel. Bender calls himself "trans-Danube" i.e. he is a descendant of the Cossacks who came under the citizenship of the Ottoman Empire. And for this he is either Russian or Ukrainian.
          And the name Ostap! Not particularly Turkish-Jewish!
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 2 June 2021 22: 50
            +1
            Of course it can be. But "Zadunaisky" gives off something operetta. Again, full name Ostap Suleiman Berta Maria Bender Bey
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 3 June 2021 09: 13
              +1
              During the time of Catherine, some of the Cossacks went beyond the Danube, so they were called "trans-Danube".
              And the fact that he called himself that is not a passport.
              One of the versions.
              There is a version that Bulgakov wrote 12 chairs.
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 3 June 2021 16: 22
                +1
                There is a version that Bulgakov wrote 12 chairs.

                Rave. Absolutely not his style, he always had figs in his pocket, well, maybe, except for the "White Guard".
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 3 June 2021 16: 36
                  +1
                  I read 12 chairs and the Golden Calf, for the first time in the 9th grade. And if 12 chairs immediately "flew in", then the calf squeaked, although it was also interesting.
                  These are my feelings. When I heard that the author of the chairs was Bulgakov, I immediately remembered them.
                  1. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 3 June 2021 16: 44
                    +1
                    Like any sequel, Calf is weaker. The topic has exhausted itself, although the impossibility of spending undeclared money in the then USSR is shown well.
                    1. ee2100
                      ee2100 3 June 2021 18: 17
                      +1
                      There is also an assumption that the Little Humpbacked Horse was written not by Ershov, but by Pushkin.
                      There are many arguments in favor of Pushkin.
                      1. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 3 June 2021 18: 29
                        +1
                        Have there been any arguments in favor of Homer yet?
                      2. ee2100
                        ee2100 3 June 2021 19: 13
                        +1
                        Homer wrote a lot, but Ershov only wrote one work.
                        I won't write about Shakespeare.
                      3. ee2100
                        ee2100 3 June 2021 19: 20
                        0
                        https://youtu.be/jy5Wbb_qUsc
                        Look
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 2 June 2021 11: 08
    +2
    From this place in more detail. Who condemned this work and when?

    Sergey, welcome! Wikipedia writes that the ban was from 1949 to the mid-50s. Like, "vulgarity and slander."
    The disciplinary sanction was imposed on the basis of a resolution of the secretariat of the Union of Soviet Writers of November 15, 1948. The document condemning the release of The Twelve Chairs and The Golden Calf stated that the release of the dilogy with a circulation of 75 copies was a “gross political mistake”: “Editor of the Soviet Literature Department, Comrade Tarasenkov did not even read this book, completely trusting the editor of the book, Comrade Kovalchik ”[000]. In the list of reasons why the book by Ilf and Petrov was declared “harmful”, it was indicated that the authors of the novel about the search for treasures, not immediately understanding the directions of social development in the USSR, “exaggerated the place and significance of the NEP elements” [214]. The directive part of the decree instructed the critic Vladimir Yermilov to prepare for the Literaturnaya Gazeta a publication “revealing the slanderous nature of the book by Ilf and Petrov” [215].
    A month later, Georgy Malenkov, the secretary of the propaganda and agitation department of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), received a memorandum, the authors of which - Dmitry Shepilov, F. Golovchenko and N. Maslin - reported that the novel "Twelve Chairs" contained "vulgar, anti-Soviet witticisms." ; special attention was paid to the lines pronounced by Bender in the 2nd house of Starsobes. The May Day demonstration, according to the party leaders who signed the document, is caricatured in the novel; the story of the launch of the first Stargorod tram looks like a "venture of the bigwigs"

    etc.
    It is a pity that I cannot read your materials. I would be glad if more were published on VO. hi
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 2 June 2021 19: 06
      +1
      Thank you for the info, I did not know that the sycophants from the joint venture fought with the work of already absent writers. It seems they wanted to be holier than the Pope. Around the same time, there was a decree on Zoshchenko and Akhmatova, after reading their opuses, I was sure that they deserved theirs. But to accuse Ilf and Petrov of anti-Sovietism and vulgarity is the height of idiocy.
      1. kalibr
        2 June 2021 20: 17
        +1
        Quote: Aviator_
        But to accuse Ilf and Petrov of anti-Sovietism and vulgarity is the height of idiocy.

        Soviet critics just blamed!
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 3 June 2021 09: 23
        +2
        Thank you for the info, I did not know that the sycophants from the joint venture fought with the work of already absent writers.

        Sergei, there seems to have been an "order from above". As you can see, "Iprimknuvshyknimshepilov" also participated ... Although he was more than heroic, the orders of Suvorov, Kutuzov and Bogdan Khmelnitsky were not given just like that. At the time of writing the memo, he was the head of the Propaganda Department of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b).
        It's funny that the first to film the novel in 1933 were the Poles in half with the Czechs, but the third film adaptation was in Nazi Germany in 1938 - based on the work (naturally changed), the film "13 Chairs" was filmed. hi
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 3 June 2021 16: 15
          +1
          Thank you, I did not know such details about the foreign film adaptation of the novel. The plot is entertaining, but then we did not bother about copyright and royalties - we were a "wild eastern country", what to reckon with. Look, even in 1963, the Americans re-shot our "Planet of Storms" of the 1962 release, removed the report to the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union from the surface of Venus and cut down the loot from their viewer, nothing, of course, without paying.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 3 June 2021 16: 18
            0
            Thank you, I did not know such details about the foreign film adaptation of the novel.

            My favorite pastime is reading Wikipedia at my leisure. It is clear that not everything needs to be believed! stop But you flip through link after link .. and you raise the level of general awareness! drinks
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 2 June 2021 19: 23
      +2
      As for my materials - apart from the only note that was published on VO, I sent a couple of times to VO material that was rejected with the wording - not on the topic of the site. To the Reptilian I sent my memoirs, written on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of graduation from MIPT, to the post office, give me an e-mail, I will also send it. He liked this.
      1. kalibr
        2 June 2021 20: 16
        -4
        Quote: Aviator_
        He liked this.

        Well, if he liked it, then this is definitely a masterpiece. It is difficult to find a more subtle connoisseur and connoisseur here. Be proud Sergey, his assessment means a lot!
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 2 June 2021 21: 50
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Aviator_
          He liked this.

          Well, if he liked it, then this is definitely a masterpiece. It is difficult to find a more subtle connoisseur and connoisseur here. Be proud Sergey, his assessment means a lot!
          of course means a lot! Because there is no reason to flatter. for self-interest
  • kalibr
    2 June 2021 11: 15
    0
    Type on the Internet about this work - everything is there.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 1 June 2021 21: 14
    +2
    And this was a reflection of much (if not all) that was in the country - a double or even a triple economy (for the plebs, for "friends" and for abroad) - double information (or even triple) - for the plebs, for the party elites, for abroad.
    In short, I understood your thought as "there are archives, but the devil himself will break his leg there" - this is how we everywhere, this is how the construct of our state is arranged. Everything is so saturated with Byzantineism that a third-party pitiful bug, seeing a piece of this epic canvas, fell down and once and for all realized that such_complicated_deeds are the lot of sages. Where not stick - the economy? Lawmaking? Military construction? Healthcare? This scheme flourishes everywhere.
    After all, everything comes from the laws - when the laws are bad and too vityevaty, people intuitively DO NOT KNOW what they can and cannot - what makes sense to secret and what not, that's the result - they secret EVERYTHING. Do you know, do not miss it!
    Our history of the 20th century is, after all, an ordinary thing, in general ... we have our successes and achievements on the facade, but the fact that behind the facade can really bring an impressionable person to catatonia. So much so that he, God forbid, will begin to doubt the meaning or meanings, good and evil, etc. And also, God forbid, will begin to try on the past for the present and draw conclusions, sir, this is even worse. On ships with Helmsmen, oracles are not held in high esteem.
    They are used to building the current picture of the world in the West or the Middle East on some "values" - so, having begun to dig deeply into our history and look at it as objectively as possible, one can unfortunately come to the conclusion that we have few values. And those that are not ours at all, and not values ​​already ..
    And so on .. in general, history encourages thinking, so these incentives are very harmful for power and control ..
    1. kalibr
      2 June 2021 11: 16
      +2
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      Everything is so saturated with Byzantineism,

      That's it!
    2. kalibr
      2 June 2021 11: 18
      -1
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      we have our successes and achievements on the facade, but what is behind the facade can really bring an impressionable person to catatonia

      Absolutely right. And it brings! You read the comments here on VO ...
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 2 June 2021 11: 44
        +1
        We still have many in the stage of "Denial" of different eras - someone denies the Stalinist terror, someone extols the "successes" of the monarchy, revealingly not noticing the slavery that survived until the second half of the 19th century (and in fact, rudimentarily remained until its end), bastard according to the achievements of the late USSR, claiming that everything was in chocolate "if not for Gorby and Co.", they go crazy over the current state of affairs, raking a pile and with fanatical joy pulling out one by one half-digested peas of success (or promises of such).
        This greatly polarizes society - people from the plane "bad-good-better" begin to fall into sacralistic doublethink in the style of "well, yes, it was bad, but it was the price for blabla we were respected there-there-there." And therefore, high-quality systematic development (AND THE DEMAND FOR IT!) Is no longer so important - you can deny the sacrifice and not notice the inefficiency if you yourself are alive and well and have your own piece, and organically used to rub yourself in life that "everything will be fine" This is the most eaten consciousness of the layman, the same as that of the Western one, only badly deformed by the specifics - to a state that is not useful either to the person himself (he lives in an illusion) or to the state (horses carry where the wind blows).
        In our country, in my opinion, history is taught in a perverse way - it is presented not as an analytical discipline, but as a patriotic psalter in hand with the lives of saints, the emphasis is on savoring personalities and dates, but the ESSENCE and reflections on detailed, debatable questions remain behind the scenes "from political considerations ". We VERY don't like / never liked sober and calm analytics ..
        1. kalibr
          2 June 2021 11: 47
          +1
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          In our country, in my opinion, history is taught in a perverse way - it is presented not as an analytical discipline, but as a patriotic psalter in hand with the lives of saints, the emphasis is on savoring personalities and dates, but the ESSENCE and reflections on detailed, debatable questions remain behind the scenes "from political considerations ". We VERY don't like / never liked sober and calm analytics ..

          Totally agree with you. I wanted to write such a textbook for the 6th grade. We read it ... Were advised it ... motivated. They offered to write a "Book for reading". Wrote: "Knights, castles, weapons." We inserted a textbook for grade 6 into the literature.
          1. gsev
            gsev 4 June 2021 03: 50
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            I wanted to write such a textbook for the 6th grade. Read ... Discouraged

            Perhaps a series of popular science books on the methodology of history is a gold mine. Several hundred years ago, mathematics was mainly concerned with the study of curves. And only later did differential and variational computation, discrete mathematics become the main ones. Perhaps Russian society is on the verge of studying history as a science of truth and falsehood, instead of the history of a set of facts.
            1. kalibr
              4 June 2021 06: 58
              +1
              Quote: gsev
              gsev (Gusev Vladimir)
              Today, 03: 50
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              I wanted to write such a textbook for the 6th grade. Read ... Discouraged

              Perhaps a series of popular science books on the methodology of history is a gold mine.

              I am constantly trying to offer. There is a plan, there is a methodological rationale. None of the publishers take!
    3. kalibr
      2 June 2021 11: 18
      +1
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      one can unfortunately come to the conclusion that we have few values. And those that are not ours at all, and not values ​​already ..

      That's right!
  • Mother Theresa
    Mother Theresa 1 June 2021 22: 03
    +3
    Our history is an object of faith, not an object of knowledge.
    1. kalibr
      2 June 2021 11: 16
      0
      Quote: Mother Teresa
      Our history is an object of faith, not an object of knowledge.

      To our great regret!
      1. Mother Theresa
        Mother Theresa 4 June 2021 19: 10
        0
        People want stability and want to understand where is "their" where "alien".
  • Gunther
    Gunther 2 June 2021 03: 49
    0
    Quote: tatra
    А yours anti-Soviet,
    enemies of the communists, which you have the only justification for the capture of the USSR in 30 years - sheer lies, slander, hypocritical "philanthropy", and a CRIME against the country and people, against the rule of law.


    I agree.
    otherwise you should not expect from the "historian" of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, who changed his shoes in a jump with a deflection)))
    for me to assess the repainted "historian" of the CPSU, his article "Features of Science in the USSR, or Graduate Students on Potatoes" was enough.
    about the "historical" opuses of kalibra, I once pointed out to the "historian" his stupidly banal ignorance of the Novgorod first chronicle of the older edition and the later Novgorod first chronicle of the younger edition, not to mention "The Tale of the Life of Alexander Nevsky".
    in my opinion, the author is a smart copy-paste, not burdened with the need to indicate the authors of the stolen material.
    So it goes.
    1. kalibr
      2 June 2021 11: 23
      -1
      Quote: Gunter
      in my opinion, the author is a smart copy-paste, not burdened with the need to indicate the authors of the stolen material.

      Henry! You don't know the basics of copywriting. It all depends on the NOVELTY of your text with an ANTIPLAGIATE check. For example, the publishing house AST requires 75% novelty. And there are those that require 90%. So if you have 92% or 100%, what kind of attribution are we talking about? Who is the author?
      1. BAI
        BAI 2 June 2021 12: 19
        +6
        Who is the author?

        How is the classic?
        "If you take it from the author, you take it from the people. If you take it from the people, you take it from you. And if someone says plagiarism, then I say it's a tradition."
    2. kalibr
      2 June 2021 11: 24
      -2
      Quote: Gunter
      "Features of Science in the USSR, or Graduate Students on Potatoes".

      By the way, it was a great article. With humor!
  • prior
    prior 2 June 2021 10: 07
    +2
    Attempts to understand the historical past are similar to an attempt to interrogate an exhumed corpse.
    Truth is at rest forever, and the interrogator is always engaged.
    The future is much more urgent than trying to find the "truth" in the past.
    There is no future in the cemetery, only the prospect of new graves.
    The future is in the hospital.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 2 June 2021 13: 29
      0
      Quote: prior
      Attempts to understand the historical past are similar to an attempt to interrogate an exhumed corpse.
      Truth is at rest forever, and the interrogator is always engaged.
      The future is much more urgent than trying to find the "truth" in the past.
      There is no future in the cemetery, only the prospect of new graves.
      The future is in the hospital.

      One cannot but agree with such an optimistic forecast ...
  • Desperado
    Desperado 2 June 2021 13: 18
    +1
    Our history after 1917 is completely "politicized", what is there to talk about ...
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 2 June 2021 22: 53
      0
      Our history after 1917 is completely "politicized"

      And before? Is it really an example of objectivity?
      1. Desperado
        Desperado 3 June 2021 08: 18
        +1
        And what documents before ... are classified as "secret"? For now, we are considering the topic in this context, we will leave the issues of adjusting the history of the Rurikovichs by the Romanovs, this is a question of history as a science
  • kig
    kig 3 June 2021 03: 26
    +2
    This is approximately why I personally do not consider history to be a science. Science relies on facts that, in theory, need to be regularly confirmed, verified and updated, but how, tell me, to verify historical facts if the researcher does not get to them? There is no point in relying on the testimony of witnesses - he is lying as an eyewitness. Documents about the same thing are scattered in different archives, even the contents of which the interested person may not know about. And also secrecy. I am sure that the full picture of the distribution of covid will be revealed only after 50 years.