Military Review

"Carrying armored air is expensive": passion around the 5TDF tank diesel engine

157

5TDF. Source: autocentre.ua


Three heroes


As you know, domestic tank engine building was based on three key designs - V-2, 5TDF and GTD-1000. Most notably, all the engines came to the tank engine-transmission compartment from aviation... Specialists from the Central Institute of Aviation Motors (TsIAM) took a direct part in the development of V-2 and 5TDF diesel engines. It so happened in the pre-war period that the first high-speed diesel engines AN-1 and AD-1 were developed for aircraft. By the way, the cylinder block of the V-2 V-XNUMX was cast from an aluminum alloy. This greetings from the aviators cost the domestic industry dearly during the war years. Especially against the background of a chronic lack of aluminum.


Diesel V-2, the predecessor of 5TDF. Source: vitalykuzmin.net

The gas turbine GTD-1000T for the T-80 family also does not hide its aviation past. The power plant for the tank was developed at the Klimov aviation design bureau based on a helicopter engine.

It should be noted that all tank engines were unprecedented for the domestic and world industry. With the legendary and first of its kind B-2 diesel engine, Soviet tanks went through the entire war and took Berlin by storm. No matter how much spiteful critics say that the Germans could create their own diesel engine for the "cat family", but simply did not consider it necessary, the V-2 really qualitatively increased the performance characteristics of both the T-34 and the KV / IS family.

Another thing is that the motor was not always assembled with high quality for quite objective reasons - the evacuation of specialized enterprises and low-skilled labor resources. V-2 in various modifications is still working both in the civilian and military fields. Suffice it to recall the quite modern T-90 tank, equipped with a modernized V-2 under the name V-92S2. If we compare it with the first prototype of the BD-2 tank diesel engine, built in Kharkov in the early 30s, then the basic parameters of the descendant have not changed. The dimensions of the cylinders and pistons remained the same, as well as the working volume of 38,17 liters.

In almost ninety years, power has grown from 400 liters. from. up to 1000 liters. from. (due to turbocharging and an increase in revs), the specific fuel consumption and the dimensions of the engine have decreased. Moreover, the average life cycle of an internal combustion engine usually does not exceed 25 years. And there is complete confidence that the descendants of the B-2 will celebrate the 100th anniversary in the tank units of the Russian army.

The most interesting thing is that the V-2 owes such a long life to the innovative Kharkov tank diesel 5TDF for its time.

Но обо всем по порядку.

Requirements for the "suitcase"


5TDF is a real box with secrets. In a diesel engine, the aircraft engine operator from CIAM, A.D. Charomsky, has combined a lot of innovations with one goal - to achieve the highest power density in the world. At the same time, it was very desirable to get a motor that is very similar in size to a suitcase. So that you can "put" it on the bottom of the engine compartment, and install the cooling system on top. This, in turn, made it possible to build a tank with a low silhouette. It was then that the "Object 432", the future T-64, was being developed. All of this required an extremely high packing density of all units.

As the chief designer of the Kharkov Design Bureau A.A.Morozov liked to say to his subordinates:

"Remember, carrying armored air is very expensive."

What did the engineers ultimately choose to create such a controversial engine?

First of all, a scheme with two crankshafts and horizontally located cylinders, in which the pistons move in different directions. That is, either towards each other, or from each other. Naturally, since there are two pistons in one cylinder at once, then where to get the place for the valves? Of course, this problem can be solved in principle, but will invariably lead to an increase in the mass and dimensions of the power plant. Therefore, it was decided to stop at a two-stroke cycle with direct-flow slot blowing. This made it possible to achieve the much-needed high liter capacity.

Initially, the 5TD five-cylinder diesel engine developed 600 hp. with., later it was dispersed to 700 liters. from. in the serial version 5TDF. Similar parameters were given by the B-2 variants, but with 12 cylinders, a greater mass and a working volume of 38,17 liters versus 13,6 liters for 5TDF. These are outstanding indicators even now, but for 1955, when the technical project of the Kharkov motor was approved, it was just fantastic.




5TDF. Source: armor.kiev.ua

The collection of new products of the Kharkov motor also includes a high-temperature cooling system, in which antifreeze worked at 115 degrees.

On the one hand, this increased the efficiency of combustion of the fuel mixture in the cylinders - there were less unburned hydrocarbons on the working surfaces. Also, the "hot motor" made it possible to pay less attention to the ambient temperature. A serviceable motor could work normally at 55 degrees - the ejection cooling system did quite well.

On the other hand, the 5TDF cylinder-piston group operated in very severe temperature conditions, which could not but affect the resource and reliability. High engine power was also achieved due to high pressures of air injection into the cylinders. The engineers opted for an exotic crankshaft and exhaust gas turbine drive system. The result was a hybrid compressor, in which the central shaft spun up to 35 thousand rpm, and the turbine itself up to 22 thousand. At the same time, the motor itself accelerated to a maximum of 3 thousand rpm.

Such frantic rotational speeds required extreme precision in manufacturing and calculations. Recall that it was at the end of the 50s, and domestic engine builders had just finally mastered the production, unlike the simpler V-2.

British example


It is worth interrupting the thread of the narrative for the sake of a story about comparing the serial 5TDF with foreign counterparts.

Yes, the arrangement with two crankshafts and pistons moving towards each other was not unique. In Great Britain, Chieftain tanks were equipped with a Leyland L-60 engine of a similar design, and Rolls-Royce K-430 was mounted on the FV60 tracked armored personnel carrier. This technique fell into the hands of engineers in Kubinka near Moscow in the late 60s and was thoroughly tested.

There was only one goal - to find ways to improve the reliability and manufacturability of the domestic 5TDF in British trophies. By this time, both the military and the engine builders had time to suffer with an innovative in every sense of the design of the motor.


A related design is the Leyland L60. Source: en.wikipedia.org

As it turned out, the Kharkov motor in terms of specific power is 1,5–2 times more efficient than the Leyland L-60 and Rolls-Royce K-60. But at the same time, the labor intensity of the production of foreign motors is 49% (L-60) and 23% (K-60) lower than the labor intensity of assembling 5TDF.

With all due respect to the engineering staff of Charomsky and Morozov, could it have been possible to develop such a complex engine for an industry that had barely recovered from the consequences of total war?

For example, pistons of British engines consist of 15 parts, and in a Kharkov engine, each piston is assembled from 42 parts! In the cylinder liner in the blowing belt (a feature of the two-stroke engine), the L-60 has only 14 "ventilation" windows, the K-60 has 10, and the 5TDF has 136 at once. The foreigners' supercharger drives consisted of only 32 parts. Kharkiv residents supplied the motor with a complex design, consisting of 180 parts. On the one hand, motors from Great Britain showed simplicity and even primitiveness in comparison with 5TDF.

It is flattering to realize that domestic engine builders in the middle of the last century were ahead of the world's leading companies. The Kharkov motor was much more perfect in almost all respects.

On the other hand, the engineers did not fully take into account the production capabilities of the Kharkov plant and, most importantly, they forgot about the realities of operating motors. In combat units, highly qualified driver mechanics were required to work with such complex equipment.

And this became the main problem of the Kharkov motor.

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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 30 May 2021 04: 37
    +27
    An interesting story of the birth of the "suitcase". We are waiting for the continuation.
    1. NIKN
      NIKN 30 May 2021 11: 20
      +10
      With all due respect to the engineering staff of Charomsky and Morozov, was it possible to develop such a complex engine to manufacture for an industry that has barely recovered from the consequences of total war?
      Number of details, complexity ... but the answer is right there ...
      Kharkiv motor by specific power parameters 1,5-2 times more effective Leyland L-60 and Rolls-Royce K-60
      1. Sedoy
        Sedoy 3 June 2021 16: 11
        +2
        confusing efficiency without reliability ...
        the more we are talking about a tank
        "stalling" in the middle of the battlefield with all its effectiveness is still a prospect ... :)
    2. Bobik012
      Bobik012 30 May 2021 22: 32
      +24
      An interesting story of the birth of the "suitcase". We are waiting for the continuation.


      "Stirlitz flogged nonsense, nonsense squealed quietly"
      The author, do not talk nonsense. The story of the birth of the suitcase is actually somewhat different. It was not at all innovative in the 50s. They flew on similar planes back in the 30s (M-30, M-40).
      The diesel locomotives drove on a similar engine (D-100). Some still survive.
      And the idea of ​​such a motor is unknown how many years, it was not Charomsky who came up with it, he was just the most ardent adherent.
      Advantages - high power density, disadvantages - fuel and oil consumption, common features of two-rotor engines. For this engine, there are still problems associated with a high degree of forcing.
      At first it was 4TD, then 5TDF, now 6TD2, it seems, with a capacity of 1200hp.
      Author, learn the materiel!
      PS The compressor drive was not combined, there was a two-stage supercharging - the first stage was a turbocharger, the second was mechanically driven. Specialists, damn it!
      1. Captain Pushkin
        Captain Pushkin 31 May 2021 15: 07
        +6
        Quote: Bobik012
        Specialists, damn it!

        Well, if he assembles engine assemblies from "spare parts", then we have a typical "nerd" mimicking a techie.
        1. Bow
          Bow 31 May 2021 20: 54
          0
          Botanist, is that in the sense that he collects herbarium? Or what do you mean?
          1. Captain Pushkin
            Captain Pushkin 31 May 2021 21: 13
            +3
            "Botanist" in the sense, a person not related to technology - did not develop, did not produce, did not exploit.
            1. Bow
              Bow 31 May 2021 21: 29
              -6
              Quote: Captain Pushkin
              "Botanist" in the sense, a person not related to technology - did not develop, did not produce, did not exploit.

              A zoologist, a botanist?
              The riot policeman is a botanist.
              The football player is a nerd.
              The classic blonde is a nerd.
              Drunk uncle Misha - and that botanist.

              What a broad term ...
      2. Bow
        Bow 31 May 2021 20: 53
        -1
        Quote: Bobik012

        <...> nonsense <...> He was not at all innovative in the 50s <...> the idea of ​​such a motor is unknown how many years, it was not Charomsky who invented it <...> Specialists, damn it!

        Forgive me, but I, upon a cursory acquaintance with the article, did not notice the statement that "such a motor" (you mean the layout and two-stroke, I suppose?) Was invented by Charomsky. I noticed something about the uniqueness of the specific power and high-temperature cooling system. And about "such a motor" not a word. Show me where did you read it? Well, or apologize to the person for unfounded claims.
  2. eskulap
    eskulap 30 May 2021 05: 40
    +8
    It seems that 5 TD was not created from scratch, but in German from u-88 (I could be wrong).
    The question of reliability and resource is also a debatable example of a Mazda rotor, shit is not shit, but reliable engines with a resource over 100 thousand are no longer needed by automakers.
    In the tank, too, why does the engine need a large resource? I put these suitcases 3 to 1 and have time to change the carcass (I welded holes from the holes, screwed the rollers and almost a new tank. Another question is what kind of war they are going to fight - blitzkrieg to the English channel, this is good, but if, like in WWII, then it's like a nikruti will have to change at 55 tons
    1. 2112vda
      2112vda 30 May 2021 06: 50
      +26
      Quote: eskulap
      It seems that 5 TD was not created from scratch, but in German from u-88 (I could be wrong).

      Diesel engines of the PDP scheme were first developed in pre-revolutionary Russia, they mean 2-shaft engines with a gear connection of the crankshafts. In the future, the development of this scheme was taken up by the company YuMO, which produced aircraft diesel engines YuMO-205, YuMO-207, etc. The first balancing PDP engine with valve gas distribution and spark ignition was made in the 19th century by Ogneslav Kostovich. Schemes of RAP engines with valve timing exist. 5TDF has no special operational advantages over 4-stroke diesel engines. In general, 2-stroke PDP engines have a lot of fatal flaws that make them exotic. The main unavoidable drawback is the washing of the piston rings by exhaust gases, at the time of their passage past the gas distribution windows, to the greatest extent it concerns the exhaust pistons. Diesel engines of the 12CH15x18 series are also far from a gift, I had to service and repair them. Tank diesel engines based on the V-2 have long been obsolete. Diesel engines YaMZ are much more reliable. In Russia, they are accustomed to "monkeying" in front of the West, and this is where the "ears" of 5TDF grow. All this gimmick in motor engineering continues to this day. Yes, and our motor building has been ruined by grief by the reformers.
      1. S. Smirnov
        S. Smirnov 31 May 2021 15: 23
        +23
        Once again I am convinced that comments are often more informative than articles.
        But thanks to both the author and the commentators.
      2. 911sx
        911sx 1 June 2021 01: 00
        +4
        The two-stroke, in this scheme, has a number of key disadvantages. Namely, the upper piston ring, as the most thermally loaded element (namely, it transfers more than 50% of the heat load to the cylinder liner), meets the exhaust tract windows in the direction of travel, where cooling - heat transfer to the liner wall is very limited (no 100% percentage fit - exhaust holes). Accordingly, there is a thermal and mechanical overload of the upper (most loaded ring). Hence the overheating of the piston edge, that is, there is no internal cooling. It (internal cooling) is compensated for by abundant oil supply (oil consumption), but this is not enough - the features of the two-stroke motor circuit with counter-moving pistons. In addition, at less than 1500 rpm, the exhaust gas pressure is low (this is not a 4-stroke), hence the complex boost. Good economy and the moment is not about this engine. All its power, etc., only from a 2-stroke cycle.
    2. Revolver
      Revolver 30 May 2021 06: 52
      +5
      Quote: eskulap
      I put these suitcases 3 to 1 and have time to change the carcass (I welded holes from holes, screwed the rollers and almost a new tank.

      If the tank has not burned out, then everything except the hull is replaceable. Even the crew. In the Second World War, they often welded a hole in the armor from a projectile, scraped off the armor from what was left of the crew, put in a fresh crew, and forth. And if it burned out, then the entire stock of spare parts and assemblies is useless, the armor has lost its properties, and the geometry most likely led.
      Quote: eskulap
      will have to change at 55 tons
      Even if we clean up all tank cemeteries to zero, the supply of T-54/55/60 hulls and towers is finite, and new ones are made - the production lines have long been scrapped, and the chains with subcontractors have long been torn, and at least half of the subcontractors are no longer there. or abroad, type in / in Ukraine. So the Russian Federation will have to fight the next long war on the T-72/90. Because all the Armats will burn out in the first month, if not a week.
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 30 May 2021 10: 12
        +2
        Quote: Nagan
        So the Russian Federation will have to fight the next long war on the T-72/90.

        but where did the T-80 go ???
        1. niki233
          niki233 30 May 2021 10: 28
          +2
          on the t-80 gas turbine is worth reading carefully!
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 2 June 2021 18: 17
          0
          Quote: PSih2097
          Quote: Nagan
          So the Russian Federation will have to fight the next long war on the T-72/90.

          but where did the T-80 go ???

          How many maintainable ones are left? And they will not make new ones, even if they wanted to restore production at Kirovskoye, they would have to start from scratch, and the price for preparing production would be at the level of "Armata". No, well, if you take Kharkov (and other South-East), then the T-84 is almost the T-80, but so far you can only dream of it.
      2. Jager
        Jager 2 June 2021 12: 22
        -1
        Old men T-55/62 were cut into metal long ago.
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 30 May 2021 08: 50
      +9
      "made chemonadov 3 to 1 and have time to change the carcass"
      Yes, it will not be the cheapest "suitcase".
      Yes, changing it, from personal experience, is not difficult, you do not need to center it.
      But ... in the field, the quality of the soldier's work is still not high, but it is worth giving a small leak to the poplar or the oil will burn nafig. He has, you see, the exhaust manifolds pass next to the bottom. Yes, the PPO or a few buckets of water in the MTO can help out, but this, obviously, is not something, it does not increase combat readiness.
      In addition, the 2-stroke 5TDF "grows old" rather quickly during operation, i. E. loses power. A new tank with ammunition and a full set of spare parts does not heat up critically and travels faster than an empty car with a range of about 3000 km, which even in the heat and with difficulty maintains an acceptable temperature.
      All this, as correctly noted in the article, from a high level of liter boost.
      But no particularly skilled driver-mechanics are needed. We need careful, so that distilled water with an additive, or at least soft water in the summer, is poured on, antifreeze, it heats up, infection, air is washed on a special stand, etc. etc.
    4. NF68
      NF68 30 May 2021 15: 52
      0
      Quote: eskulap
      It seems that 5 TD was not created from scratch, but in German from u-88 (I could be wrong).
      The question of reliability and resource is also a debatable example of a Mazda rotor, shit is not shit, but reliable engines with a resource over 100 thousand are no longer needed by automakers.
      In the tank, too, why does the engine need a large resource? I put these suitcases 3 to 1 and have time to change the carcass (I welded holes from the holes, screwed the rollers and almost a new tank. Another question is what kind of war they are going to fight - blitzkrieg to the English channel, this is good, but if, like in WWII, then it's like a nikruti will have to change at 55 tons


      http://www.alexfiles99.narod.ru/library2/0001/jumo_and_5tdf_p2.htm
    5. Flashpoint
      Flashpoint 30 May 2021 17: 00
      +2
      Quote: eskulap
      It seems that 5 TD was not created from scratch, but in German from u-88 (I could be wrong).
      The question of reliability and resource is also a debatable example of a Mazda rotor, shit is not shit, but reliable engines with a resource over 100 thousand are no longer needed by automakers.
      In the tank, too, why does the engine need a large resource? I put these suitcases 3 to 1 and have time to change the carcass (I welded holes from the holes, screwed the rollers and almost a new tank. Another question is what kind of war they are going to fight - blitzkrieg to the English channel, this is good, but if, like in WWII, then it's like a nikruti will have to change at 55 tons

      Rotary Mazda is a bit different example. This is the case when they tried but failed. For RX-8 - every 25 km of run - either a capital of the engine (000 USD of work + 2500 USD of spare parts) or a new engine or (here it is generally useless) from a disassembly / contractor. Essentially like a weekend car, for the soul.
      For ordinary in-line or V - the resource really does not want to make 250 km or more. Carried away by aluminum, the wrong oils and automatic gearboxes. I don't even want to talk about the rest ...
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 31 May 2021 06: 56
        +4
        For ordinary in-line or V - the resource really does not want to make 250 km or more.
        Which you are right cruel to car manufacturers. If you make cars with such a resource, then at first everyone will buy them. But then what? Close the plant and fire everyone? Nah ... Automakers want to eat not only today, but tomorrow, and in a year, and in ten.
        So what should be done is cars that run off the warranty without failures, and then must fall apart without the possibility of repair. For you to buy a new car.
        1. Urs
          Urs 31 May 2021 13: 14
          +1
          Well, in general, in a hole, I have been in a car service for 20 years and I know about the "conspiracy of automakers" in real life.
          All modern cars run without problems for 3-5 years, further problems are increasing from a year of life to 150tk, motors of 80% of cars are ready for overhaul, the remaining 20% ​​can reach 250tk. And this is only with very scrupulous service.
          1. Bow
            Bow 31 May 2021 21: 22
            0
            Quote: Urs
            I've been in the car service for 20 years
            <...>
            All modern cars run without problems for 3-5 years, further problems are increasing from a year of life to 150 tons, motors 80 percent of cars are ready for overhaul

            This is the classic "survivor's mistake" just the opposite).

            Seeing a bunch of broken cars, you think that this is some kind of "conspiracy", forgetting that you work in a car service))))
          2. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 3 June 2021 13: 40
            0
            I know about the "conspiracy of automakers" in real life.
            As such, there is no conspiracy. Each manufacturer inevitably comes to this in an attempt to maximize and stabilize their income. In a satiated market.
            In an era when the market was not saturated with one or another type of product (in this case, auto), the manufacturer increased sales by offering a better quality offer. Nowadays there is overproduction and even the highest quality goods are not taken. It remains to reduce costs, the price of the product and forcibly reduce the service life of the product.
    6. Bow
      Bow 31 May 2021 21: 13
      0
      Quote: eskulap
      reliable engines with a resource over 100 thousand. Automakers no longer need it.
      For the last 10 years I have never heard that someone from the social circle has problems with the engine in the car. During this time I changed 3 cars myself, on each I ran over a hundred thousand km from scratch - the engine flawlessly. I must confess that now I don't even have such a thought that the engine of a car can break down. Today even turbines of 150-200 thousand are being maintained.
      Suspension and boxes are ill, basically (although, and this is conditional - even dry DSG with careful operation takes care of 150 thousand). Well, all kinds of nonsense, like catalysts.
  3. andrewkor
    andrewkor 30 May 2021 06: 47
    +4
    I was once a fan (teapot) of this engine, but experts but VO have landed my mriyas. In truth, a mesmerizing design! And yet, only the Superpower could afford Three different main tanks in massive quantities, not like all sorts of America and Europe!
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 30 May 2021 07: 22
      -1
      Quote: andrewkor
      only the Superpower could afford Three different main tanks in massive quantities

      It would be better if the superpower provided in stores, even in the regional center of Zakhlupansk, 3 varieties of sausages on the counter. Maybe then in August 1991 the people supported the State Emergency Committee. And most likely, there would not have been a whole perestroika. And the army would get by with one type of tank, say T-72, and one engine, and logistics in tank units would be easier due to unification.
      Quote: andrewkor
      not like all sorts of America and Europe!

      America quite lives with one type of Abrams tank, and I can't even count how many varieties of sausages are on the shelves. And in Europe, at least a few types of tanks (Leopard, Leclerc, Challenger, and what else there), and there are even more varieties of sausage than in America, with all due respect it does not pull the Superpower.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 30 May 2021 07: 38
        +1
        This is our special way ... after the T-34 and IS2 ... rushed: T64, T72, T80 ..... T90, T-14. Ka52 and Mi28
      2. andrewkor
        andrewkor 30 May 2021 09: 30
        +10
        In your response to my comment, there is a liberoid song about sausage. You didn't feel sarcasm.
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 30 May 2021 18: 58
          +1
          Quote: andrewkor
          liberoid song

          I was not a liberast and I do not see what can make me become such.
          "If you are not a liberal at 25, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative by 35, you have no brains." © Churchill
          Quote: andrewkor
          you didn't feel sarcasm.
          You too
      3. Constanty
        Constanty 30 May 2021 10: 48
        +6
        And the army would have cost one type of tank, say T-72, and one engine, and logistics in tank units would be easier due to unification


        In fact, the T-64 had to be like this - after all, in principle and in accordance with the provisions of the T-72, it should have been only a version of the T-64, adapted to production capabilities. "Wagons".
        Unfortunately, the ambitions of Leonid Nikolaevich Kartsev and the interests of the centers for the production of tanks (yes, interests, because "own" tank - these are prizes, bonuses, etc.) In a sense, this was justified by problems with the 5TD engines and their low durability. All this led to the introduction of three new types of MBT, and not one.
        1. abc_alex
          abc_alex 31 May 2021 09: 57
          +2
          Quote: Constanty
          And the army would have cost one type of tank, say T-72, and one engine, and logistics in tank units would be easier due to unification


          In fact, the T-64 had to be like this - after all, in principle and in accordance with the provisions of the T-72, it should have been only a version of the T-64, adapted to production capabilities. "Wagons".
          Unfortunately, the ambitions of Leonid Nikolaevich Kartsev and the interests of the centers for the production of tanks (yes, interests, because "own" tank - these are prizes, bonuses, etc.) In a sense, this was justified by problems with the 5TD engines and their low durability. All this led to the introduction of three new types of MBT, and not one.


          You're wrong. It wasn't about ambition. Even the Kharkov plant could not really produce the T-64. He just couldn't fulfill the plan. The machine turned out to be so complicated. It is because of this - the inability of the KhPZ to master the mass production, the T-64 in Europe began to be replaced by the T-80.
          When the car began to be "simplified for mass production" both in the Urals and in Leningrad, they encountered a mass of irreparable "design features" that did not allow normal modification of the tank.
          Morozov designed it too much for himself.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 31 May 2021 12: 19
          +4
          Quote: Constanty
          Unfortunately, the ambitions of Leonid Nikolaevich Kartsev and the interests of the centers for the production of tanks (yes, interests, because "own" tank is prizes, bonuses, etc.)

          It's not about ambitions, but about the capabilities of factories. In the USSR, tank design bureaus made equipment for the capabilities of their plant - and what one plant could produce, another might not master. Uv. M. Svirin wrote that after receiving the documentation for the T-64, Tagil put up an estimate for the modernization of the plant at a cost of half the new plant, and even asked for this for three years. smile
      4. bandabas
        bandabas 30 May 2021 18: 29
        +11
        Maybe there were no 3 varieties of sausage. Only capelin was not considered a fish. Yummy though. Now more expensive than cod. Yes, and cod, more expensive than beef. Complete insanity in the richest country.
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 30 May 2021 18: 45
          -3
          Quote: bandabas
          Yes, and cod, more expensive than beef. Complete insanity in the richest country.
          In America, cod is also more expensive than beef, and there is no capelin from the word "absolutely".
          1. bandabas
            bandabas 30 May 2021 19: 05
            +3
            In the USSR it was different.
          2. bandabas
            bandabas 30 May 2021 19: 07
            +2
            And we do not live in America.
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 30 May 2021 19: 22
              0
              Quote: bandabas
              And we do not live in America.

              I thought you would be pleased to know that this problem with cod and capelin affected not only Russia. hi
              1. bandabas
                bandabas 3 June 2021 09: 37
                0
                I am pleased to learn that problems will soon be with berries-mushrooms. And, another tax will be introduced on growing potatoes.
                1. Revolver
                  Revolver 3 June 2021 09: 46
                  0
                  We have no problems with that - I went to the "Russian" store and bought it. Although there is one - if you do not look carefully, you can run into Chinese. Like the label in the Russian style, and in the jar boletus or boletus - handsome, one to one, and in the corner of the label in small print "Product of PRC", i.e. People's Republic of China. And they have almost a catastrophe there with the environment, and mushrooms tend to absorb and detain all these harmful substances, so I'm looking for Russian or Belarusian ones. Well, at the extreme Baltic or Poland. Since 2014, I have been boycotting Ukrainian ones in principle, and it will become possible with them, they can roll Chernobyl into the bank.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 31 May 2021 12: 21
          +1
          Quote: bandabas
          Maybe there were no 3 varieties of sausage. Only capelin was not considered a fish. Yummy though.

          I remember what was considered a fish in the late USSR.
          At first it was: cod is a fish, hake is not a fish. Then the hake also became a fish, but pollock is not a fish. Then pollock became a fish. And in the end, all sorts of nototeni also began to be considered fish. smile
          1. bandabas
            bandabas 3 June 2021 09: 39
            0
            Cod is a thing! Especially fillet in batter good !
      5. Alf
        Alf 30 May 2021 21: 52
        +4
        Quote: Nagan
        It would be better if the superpower provided in stores, even in the regional center of Zakhlupansk, 3 varieties of sausages on the counter.


        Does the photo of the CIA director parading across Red Square say anything?
        1. IC
          IC 31 May 2021 10: 01
          +3
          Amazing naivety. Until now, consider that something might be free.
        2. ROMAN R
          ROMAN R 5 June 2021 12: 40
          -1
          Only all free housing, education and medicine were far from free. There were a lot of people who did not have their own homes and prospects of obtaining. And not for everyone. The best of all, of course, were the partocrats and various hangers-on and sycophants. You shouldn't broadcast these tales.
        3. Normal
          Normal 5 June 2021 19: 34
          0
          Don't tear my soul, buddy.
          But sausage is not a luxury, and jeans do not undermine foundations. These are consumer goods. Just food and clothing.
          The top leadership of the CPSU broke away from reality and built communism exclusively for themselves. As a result, the director of the CIA is making his parade on Red Square.
      6. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 31 May 2021 12: 13
        +1
        Quote: Nagan
        America quite lives with one type of Abrams tank, and I can't even count how many varieties of sausages are on the shelves.

        He-he-he ... in the Cold War, America at one time lived quietly with three types of tanks - and there was enough for sausage. The army had the M60 and the first M1, the Marines had the M60, the National Guard rode the M60 and M48.
        1. Saxon
          Saxon 31 May 2021 15: 53
          +1
          The US Marines, until the mid-70s, also had the M103 in service ...
    2. Siberian54
      Siberian54 30 May 2021 09: 44
      +13
      The superpower could provide retail outlets with at least four varieties of smoked-semi-smoked sausage (from 2,50 to 4,50 kg) and five to seven varieties of boiled water (from 1,80 to 3,40 rubles) ... at a price of 10 to fifteen R. per kilogram .. Events in Novocherkassk-rise in oil prices by two rubles .. meat consumption was inferior to the United States by a quarter, and if you count more precisely households, then there was no lag in general and there was a fundamental difference - in the states ate and eat more poultry and in the USSR the emphasis was on pork and beef (veal was absent in state stores as a class)
      1. Proctologist
        Proctologist 30 May 2021 13: 20
        -1
        A superpower could provide at least four varieties of sausage to retail outlets.

        Not on the topic of the VO remark, of course, but you did not leave a chance to keep silent to the one who lived in the USSR. According to Soviet statistics, "oil consumption per capita .... pig iron production ..." The USSR, indeed, "breathed at the same level" with a cap. countries. That's just to the reality, in which, for a ghostly chance to buy at least some kind of sausage, trains came to Moscow (there is a mystery about this from the times of the USSR - what is it, long, green, smells of sausage?) From afar citizens of the country, and in which a butcher in a store was a thug and most profitable profession, as it was possible to buy meat ONLY for pull / for bribes - these tales about Soviet abundance are irrelevant. We lived poorly, modestly. The food was, they were not starving, but the food was simple, the meat was tough, the vegetables (from the store) were dirty and rotten, and canned peas were taken care of like the apple of an eye for the holidays, to make "Olivier".

        Denials of the economic collapse of the USSR are not the subject of discussion on this site.
        1. Siberian54
          Siberian54 2 June 2021 09: 39
          +1
          In Moscow, 8,000,000 inhabitants, came from a radius of 300 km from 15,000 to 30,000 people (70% the same) In the country 240,000,000, of which 220,000,000 -never took these trainsI am one of them (the distance of 4 time zones somehow did not inspire, although in my youth from BAM for a long weekend (from the night + 2 days off and a day off), I flew by plane to hang out around the capital, but this is just for courage and relaxation. A small town in the west of the Krasnoyarsk Territory (then 40,000 inhabitants, now 17,000, together with the Strategic Missile Forces division, two pigs raised themselves, chickens earned under 300 rubles and yes parents' friends in the store as a director, Bulgarian compotes out of turn ... the parents were poor immigrants to their homeland from Transbaikalia at 48 hours, after their release they had a small house, a car assembled from the "scrap metal" GAZ-67. 58 and they were allowed into the party)) but just the chief mechanic of the ATP with 1,000 units of equipment ... Opposite us in the same small house lived a retired lieutenant colonel of the NKVD and a former prisoner, and another neighbor who served for captivity (the captain is a regimental intelligence officer, and another neighbor of the whole war innot a single scratch in the trench, for merits, for courage and the capture of Budapest, they sat down (if the weather allowed to celebrate on the street, if we do not have a VICTORY DAY
      2. Revolver
        Revolver 30 May 2021 19: 12
        -1
        Quote: Siberian54
        veal in state stores was absent as a class
        Maybe there was no veal at all on the periphery, but in Leningrad, at least until the middle of the night, if the perestroika was mentioned, I did. I bought it myself, when the beef was not imported, and the pork was solid lard. And, pray tell, what to do with all the dairy gobies that were born? Only a few are needed per tribe, it is unprofitable to feed it to the size of a full-fledged bull, that is, meat breeds. Here they, poor fellows, were castrated, fed to the size of marketable veal, and slaughtered. And now they do so, than they bring the fighters for animal rights to the uttermost frenzy. And the damned nomenclature, with all its appetites, could not gobble up all the veal, so it ended up on the shelves.
        1. hjvtp1966
          hjvtp1966 30 May 2021 22: 37
          +5
          Quote: Nagan
          Quote: Siberian54
          veal in state stores was absent as a class
          Maybe there was no veal at all on the periphery, but in Leningrad, at least until the middle of the night, if the perestroika was mentioned, I did. I bought it myself, when the beef was not imported, and the pork was solid lard. And, pray tell, what to do with all the dairy gobies that were born? Only a few are needed per tribe, it is unprofitable to feed it to the size of a full-fledged bull, that is, meat breeds. Here they, poor fellows, were castrated, fed to the size of marketable veal, and slaughtered. And now they do so, than they bring the fighters for animal rights to the uttermost frenzy. And the damned nomenclature, with all its appetites, could not gobble up all the veal, so it ended up on the shelves.

          In the sense of what to do? Of course, send to the countries of people's democracies! Like everything else that the Soviet workers have superfluous. We had everything to hell, according to the Vremya program. laughing
  4. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 30 May 2021 06: 51
    +2
    Read, lads ... read! And remember! It will take some time and all this will become ... antiques! ECHs on fuel cells will be installed in the engine compartment ... on the "boards" - electric motors (electric transmission in general ...) and ... "let's go, beauty. Skate .... I've been waiting for you for a long time!" (Putin will sing Kersti Kaljulaid ...) Have you forgotten "Petrel"? belay In vain! Let's put the engine from "Petrel" (slightly revised ...) on ... at least T-90, at least on "Armata" ... (!) ... and, for starters, visit the Poles! (No ... I didn’t miss the Poles very much ... and I’ve been to Poland ... But they very often remind Russia that Russians haven’t been there in a “mass” number for a long time! time they promise to visit Russia! Well ... if they really want to, they will ask for it ...)
    1. dauria
      dauria 30 May 2021 11: 31
      +6
      ECH on fuel cells will be supplied to the engine compartment


      They will never deliver. And never any accumulator or battery or "fuel cell" will be able to catch up with the kerosene canister. For one reason - there is only one fuel component in the canister, the oxidizer (oxygen) "for free" is taken from the air in a ratio of 1 to 3. So with any "fuel cell" you will be "carrying armored air" in the truest sense of the word.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 30 May 2021 12: 19
        +1
        Quote: dauria
        oxidizer (oxygen) "for free" is taken from the air in a ratio of 1 to 3.

        Mil cholovik! You don't know much about ECH! Learn first the "materiel", then we will argue!
    2. Urs
      Urs 31 May 2021 13: 28
      +1
      The idea of ​​an electric drive on a tank is not new. In 1985, a diploma project for an electric transmission T72 was presented at KVTIU. A diploma at the department of tanks was accepted by representatives of KhTZ and ChTZ if memory does not fail in the rank of deputy chief engineer. Guys, it seems there were three of them, defended perfectly and got a stamp on the project "sov.secretno."
  5. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 30 May 2021 06: 53
    0
    If there is such a difference in working volume - 38l / 400hp versus 13l / 400hp ..... why did the automakers not follow this path?
    1. Coward
      Coward 30 May 2021 07: 30
      +6
      The maintainability of these engines in service station conditions is practically zero. Aggregate replacement only.
    2. voffka
      voffka 30 May 2021 07: 34
      +5
      For the same reason that, for example, BMW is discontinuing production of a 3-liter diesel engine with 3-stage supercharging - it cannot be repaired even in a certified German service station.
    3. garri-lin
      garri-lin 30 May 2021 07: 48
      +8
      Complexity. Simply prohibitive complexity with one plus. Reduced size.
    4. 113262a
      113262a 30 May 2021 09: 14
      +3
      They would have shot themselves! And the ecology of the two-stroke ...
    5. D16
      D16 30 May 2021 09: 31
      +21
      Why didn't the automakers take this route?

      Two-stroke diesels do not meet any environmental standards and produce extremely toxic exhaust. That is why the movement in the T-64 convoy is still a pleasure. With a high liter capacity, the TDF has a very low torque, which requires the qualification of the mech-water. Added to this is the disgusting starting performance in winter. In general, from the point of view of a theoretician, this is the embodiment of the heights of design thought in motor engineering. From the operator's point of view, it is representative of the substance being thrown onto the fan. laughing
    6. ZAV69
      ZAV69 30 May 2021 22: 16
      +2
      Quote: Zaurbek
      If there is such a difference in working volume - 38l / 400hp versus 13l / 400hp ..... why did the automakers not follow this path?

      I mean, didn’t go? Cat C15 is just 400-500 depending on the firmware, 15 liters, Detroit Diesel 60 series, from 12.7 liters removes from 350 to 505 horses.
    7. Normal
      Normal 30 May 2021 22: 34
      +1
      Quote: Zaurbek
      why didn't the automakers take this path?

      Due to the fact that military equipment has its own specifics and design solutions in the field of tank building are redundant in the automotive industry and unacceptable in civilian use.
    8. Urs
      Urs 31 May 2021 13: 32
      +3
      The fuel consumption is konyachy and the oil consumption is not frail. To the volume the air consumption and its quality (purity).
  6. mark1
    mark1 30 May 2021 07: 41
    +3
    5TD is of course a complex motor both in production and in operation. But Suvorov says that the problems in operation were not so much in the engines as in the "exploiters". The new technology was approached with the standards of the Great Patriotic War.
    Although now the "exploiters" will catch up and give a complete, objective, alignment (only, most likely, they do not recognize anything for themselves)
    1. Monar
      Monar 30 May 2021 08: 13
      +4
      What kind of Suvorov did you mean?
      1. mark1
        mark1 30 May 2021 08: 19
        +2
        Not the one you thought of - the tanker.
        1. Monar
          Monar 30 May 2021 08: 20
          +1
          Well, check it out. What tanker with the name Suvorov did you mention?
          1. mark1
            mark1 30 May 2021 08: 22
            +9
            Suvorov Sergey Viktorovich, candidate of military sciences, reserve colonel. Graduated from the Kharkov Guards Higher Tank Command School, the Military Academy of Armored Forces named after V.I. Marshal of the Soviet Union R. Ya. Malinovsky, postgraduate studies at the Military Academy. M.V. Frunze. Served as commander of a tank platoon, deputy commander of a tank company for technical matters, commander of a tank company, chief of staff of a tank battalion, commander of a training tank battalion, teacher and senior teacher of the Department of the Military Academy.
            Exhaustive?
            1. Monar
              Monar 30 May 2021 08: 27
              +3
              Thank you. It is always better to clarify here. And that is, one tanker that he tried to defile this name.
              1. Okolotochny
                Okolotochny 30 May 2021 11: 38
                +3
                Tankist Rezun meant?
                1. Monar
                  Monar 30 May 2021 12: 39
                  +1
                  Pardon me, but a goat tanker. As strange as it sounds.
            2. dgonni
              dgonni 30 May 2021 12: 38
              +10
              It is necessary to find and read.
              What is remembered from ancient experience.
              The winding up below -5 degrees outside for three fingers for a confident start.
              Three fingers is oil injection + air + electric starter.
              Paltsi was showing the chief mechanics of the company battalion.
              If you pour water from the tap into the engine, then somewhere after 50 operating hours it will be cranked. Channels are clogged and overheating with all the consequences.
              Therefore, either antifreeze or prepared softened water with an additive.
              On clay landfills in dry weather, (loess soils) and this is the Dnepropetrovsk region and, in fact, the entire southwest of Ukraine well FGP essno, the cooling system on the march is quickly clogged with dust. In principle, it is not critical. It is blown out at a time. But if, when refueling with oil, oil gets on the radiator, then the amba. Overheating is assured. Therefore, the first thing the crew was taught was to be careful when refueling with oil. An old blanket rug solved this problem completely.
              The sound of the engine is peculiar, similar to a sawmill or circular.
              Replacing the motor does not present any problems at all. It takes longer to turn on hoses and pipes than to throw away and install a new engine.
              P.S. In terms of mobility, that 72ka is 64ka in fact equal.
              64kA softer 72kA stiffer.
              According to the MSA 64ka and 80ka, they made 72k at a time.
              Well, if there was a choice, then they tried to release 64k for prize shooting.
              For the soft suspension with coaxial torsion bars made it possible to shoot on the move perfectly well with a greater probability than on the same 80ke, and even more so from the 72k.
              Well so sclerosis remembered
    2. Zufei
      Zufei 30 May 2021 08: 27
      +5
      Google suggested that Pakistan buys an average of 8-12 power units a year. Average price 320 kilodollars. Types - 6TD-1 (1000hp) and 6TD-2 (1200hp) The second type is used on its own "tank" Al-Khalid
      1. mark1
        mark1 30 May 2021 08: 32
        +5
        So the packs somehow cope with the operation.
  7. Thrifty
    Thrifty 30 May 2021 08: 14
    +6
    The de facto engine was flat, which made it possible to lower the height of the tank, which is good. But the fact that the engine was very hot is a big minus - even then an anti-tank missile could be easily guided to the heat from the engine, because the engine hotter than B2 was ideally captured by the anti-homing missile sensors. This alone neutralized all the other advantages such as lower fuel consumption and higher traction.
    1. Alexandra
      Alexandra 30 May 2021 10: 25
      +6
      It was possible to develop an almost flat engine and simpler. That actually did, but then.

      1. dgonni
        dgonni 30 May 2021 12: 17
        -4
        Is this a type of engine for the Armata? As for the simpler, I would argue strongly
        1. 113262a
          113262a 30 May 2021 14: 21
          +3
          No, it's a BMP. And his camber angle is not 180 degrees!
        2. Ponchik78
          Ponchik78 30 May 2021 19: 15
          +5
          This is FTD. I work on the premises of the factory where they are made. Barnaultransmash.
          1. 113262a
            113262a 31 May 2021 00: 21
            +1
            And I'm fixing them.
            1. Ponchik78
              Ponchik78 31 May 2021 17: 34
              +1
              As they are now collecting, I'm not surprised that I have to repair)))
        3. Alexandra
          Alexandra 1 June 2021 22: 23
          0
          This type of engine is on the T-64.

          The power of the two-stroke 5TD is 580 hp. Overall dimensions are 1470 mm x 955 mm x 681 mm.
          The power of the four-stroke UTD-29 is 500 hp. Dimensions 1228 mm x 997 mm x 598 mm

          The power of the later 5TDF is 700 hp.
          The power of the modern substitute for UTD-29 - UTD-32T is 816 hp.

          Morozov did not have to bother with the two-stroke "miracle". It was enough to find developers ready to make it a V-shaped four-stroke diesel engine with a camber angle of 144 degrees, like the UTD-29.
    2. Zufei
      Zufei 30 May 2021 10: 57
      +2
      Quote: "30-35% reduction in heat dissipation compared to existing 4-stroke (naturally aspirated) diesels, and therefore less volume required for the cooling system of the power plant;"
    3. dgonni
      dgonni 30 May 2021 12: 16
      -1
      Exhaust at 64ki and 80ud back, in contrast to the same 72ki and 90th where it is organized on the left side
    4. Tima62
      Tima62 30 May 2021 22: 51
      0
      Quote: Thrifty
      this negated all other advantages such as lower fuel consumption and higher traction.

      The two-stroke diesel is deprived of these advantages in comparison with the four-stroke (it eats more and the torque is less).
    5. Bobik012
      Bobik012 30 May 2021 22: 55
      +2
      Reduced consumption - that's laughing.
      And overheating is easily eliminated by increasing the power of the cooling system and using a banal fan instead of an injector. By the way, can anyone explain the love for this scheme in military equipment? It seems to me that more armored vehicles burned out from injectors than from anti-tank missiles
  8. Alex968m
    Alex968m 30 May 2021 08: 32
    +9
    The 2-stroke cycle was not chosen because of the opposite movement of the pistons, but on the contrary - with the 2-stroke cycle, the most effective (but at the same time complex, due to two crankshafts) scheme is with counter-moving pistons. And in itself, this scheme is nothing unique - just remember 10D100 on diesel locomotives of the 2TE10 series (or its predecessor 2D100 on diesel locomotives TE3). And before them it was used on experimental long-range bombers Junkers and American missile boats, from where ours took the D100.
    GTD-1000/1250 has nothing to do with helicopter, except for gas turbine and design bureau that developed it.
    The last modification of the B-92 1130 hp
    1. 113262a
      113262a 30 May 2021 09: 18
      +2
      Those that are diesel locomotive are the same MALYSHEVA plant! And the same Charomsky! And the same crap!
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 30 May 2021 11: 58
        +2
        The Germans developed two-stroke aircraft engines with 4 crankshafts (Jumo-223, 2200hp and Jumo-224 - 4400hp). Not brought to mind.

        Produced in England with 3 crankshafts ("Napier Deltic")
      2. Bobik012
        Bobik012 30 May 2021 23: 06
        +1
        No more MALYSHEV plant! Actually
    2. 113262a
      113262a 31 May 2021 00: 36
      0
      It is the GAS GENERATOR that is used by helicopter. All piping and power turbine with PCA are original!
  9. Timon2155
    Timon2155 30 May 2021 11: 31
    +5
    I don’t think the engine builders are to blame for the complication of the motor design. The author compares English engines (how simple and reliable!) And immediately says that ours is 2 times superior in performance. This is why it surpasses what was originally conceived to be more perfect! And the necessity and justification of these very characteristics (power, dimensions, etc.) were lowered from above! The designer was given the task to develop an engine with the required characteristics, and they developed it. It wouldn’t have been simpler and more reliable! There would be a task to develop 2 times less powerful, they would make it easier than English ones.
  10. dgonni
    dgonni 30 May 2021 12: 01
    +3
    So to speak! The predecessor of 5tdf can be considered the Doychevsky YuMO and its heirs from aircraft diesel engines, not B2.
    The design was progressive and high-tech.
    Therefore, it demanded a high culture of production and operation.
    Well, for the level of operators, it is right in the article.
    It's like putting a lawn driver behind the wheel of a Porsche 911.
    1. Bobik012
      Bobik012 30 May 2021 23: 09
      +5
      It's like putting a lawn driver behind the wheel of a Porsche 911 - it's much more fun to put a Porsche driver on the Lawn. laughing laughing
    2. Urs
      Urs 31 May 2021 13: 43
      0
      Well, an interesting comparison. You are a T72 for a lawn and a T64 for a Porsche. Absolutely stupid comparison. Both nichrome is not a Porsche, this is a tank that a Porsche will run over and will not notice.
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 31 May 2021 14: 02
        -1
        Which side do you drag 72ku then? She appeared in the troops later, when the main problems with the T-64 had already been resolved. And at the beginning of operation in the army, the crews who saw nothing cooler than the T-62, but mainly from the T-54, sat in the tank. Here, in comparison with 54ka 64ka, it was still as difficult as a porsche after a lawn!
        1. Urs
          Urs 31 May 2021 14: 20
          +2
          Well, nafig, the whole thrill of the mechanic at 64 was on the gear selector, this was after 62-55 with their gear grinder. And the crews who had passed the training were sitting at 64. features of maintenance and operation. And the young already deputy technical officers are not a problem at all. I will say for myself, I studied at 62-72 in the main profile on tangent 64k. I came to serve in the GSVG (86g) as a deputy engineer on T64A, and my company commander Yulianych generally served on 62 in Transbaikalia, they didn't care the company was raised by joint efforts, so there are no lawns and porsh, there are only tanks soldier
  11. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 30 May 2021 12: 08
    +1
    This remains a problem for this tank today. In Banderaffen there is a catastrophic lack of sensible mechanized drivers, therefore more tanks fail during daily operation, and not in battle. It became especially sad when the T - 64 was heavily weighted, and now the suspension can not stand it either.
    1. 113262a
      113262a 30 May 2021 14: 29
      +8
      It’s not in the mechvod, to change the nozzles-hemorrhoids, to tighten the fuel pipes - it’s the same, already at 5 heat, it starts with difficulty, the sound of the exhaust is heard for 5 km, the oil is eating bad. Yes, and the vibration is palpable due to the displacement of the phases of the crankshafts. We still slurp this g-no. So far, 64 in the LDNR are in service. And the Malyshevites are not appeased, and this miracle is on the BTR-4.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 30 May 2021 17: 50
        +2
        What you are listing is no longer competent operation, but minor repairs. Due to the structural complexity of this unit, it was not a mechanic driver (in the Soviet Army - a 19-year-old boy) that should have been engaged in it, but more trained personnel.
        1. 113262a
          113262a 31 May 2021 00: 42
          +3
          Garbage - a 19-year-old boy he served on a T-80 with an equally complex GTD-1100TF. Not a single complaint for a year and a half in the GSVG. Combat training vehicle, worked day after day. At 14 he worked for a t-64bv, -katorga! Poplar fluff, heat, June!))) Now we are boiling, then we are looking for oil in the engine! On the bottom of the removed hatches, something is constantly leaking.
          1. Urs
            Urs 31 May 2021 13: 50
            +1
            Oh oh, how I understand you. GSVG Hillersleben deputy for those companies. Tank T64A, BUT there is a positive point, on the basis of remrota and 4 liters of alcohol (for factory workers for a set of tools) I learned how to repair these motors, one might say on the "knees" these are the ones that did not take on the complaint.
            1. 113262a
              113262a 31 May 2021 22: 10
              0
              On Shield -84 in Magleburg, I rode on 64-and-except for the ZPU-a pathetic likeness of ours. Bows to every bump, vibration takes out the soul.
          2. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 31 May 2021 17: 55
            0
            So were you in the repair or maintenance business? These are, sorry, slightly different things. I see the GTE at work every day and communicate with the people who assemble and disassemble them. My personal opinion is that a GTE is not more complicated than an internal combustion engine, simply due to some design features, it is much more expensive.
            1. 113262a
              113262a 31 May 2021 22: 08
              0
              The GTE was not repaired in the troops, because the main defect - wear of the turbine compressor blades and burnout of the TC and PCA blades - is treated ONLY at repair plants.
    2. dgonni
      dgonni 30 May 2021 19: 27
      0
      Did the Nightingale and Kisel tell you all this?
      With dviglom and suspension they are all gut.
      The only problem with 64ki is if the goose flew away on soft ground. Then it is difficult to pull it out because of the thin road wheels.
      P.S. There is no need to yell for the dumping of the 64th goose. This was until 72-73, until the production of the goose with a flat-paraoel hinge and RMS was settled.
      Morozov made a suspension for centuries!
      And do not let all the saints, but how 80ki and 72ki were supposed to fight during a vigorous war, I personally do not understand.
      In fact, the rubber of the rollers burned out for them and they remained pillboxes on the battlefield.
      Well, that is.
      This was said quietly in the school
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 30 May 2021 20: 12
        +3
        This was told to me by a man who serves in Banderaffen, the tank became heavier by 3.5 tons, but the hodrive and engine remained the same. At high speed, across the intersection - the torsion bars "fly" and what else from the hodovka, I did not remember the name.
        1. dgonni
          dgonni 30 May 2021 20: 23
          +2
          Where +3.5 tons of capacity is already 1000 horses and torsion bars do not tear.
          And if you fly into a ravine out of fear, then the torsion bars will fly away from the 55k.
          The problem in the steppes of Donbas is the same for all tanks. Slush. And the T-64 goes much further than 72kA due to its better cross-country ability.
          Therefore, it is more problematic to get out.
          From experience in Belarus and FGP.
          Where the 64k is still confidently going, the 72nd is almost on the belly.
          On rocky soils, 72ka has great adhesion properties. Therefore, if the type of Carpathians, then 72e will reach faster. They have better grip on rocky slopes.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 30 May 2021 21: 24
            +1
            Kharkiv makes new engines by the piece and they are mainly exported. What Banderaffen has in stock, even with the old 5TDF. Recently I watched Bandera's "Visiting the Fairy Tale" - the 1st TBR at the exercises. In the video, the usual T - 64 B, even without DZ)))) 100% deceased.
          2. Alf
            Alf 30 May 2021 21: 58
            +5
            Quote: dgonni
            And the T-64 goes much further than 72kA due to its better cross-country ability.
            Therefore, it is more problematic to get out.

            The steeper the jeep, the farther you paddle behind the tractor.
      2. Bobik012
        Bobik012 30 May 2021 23: 18
        0
        Those. were the rubber bands in the rollers non-flammable in the T64? laughing The whole world has been driving for a hundred years on rubber-coated rollers. Internal depreciation in rollers on the T64 did not give any advantages, which is why it was abandoned on the T80
        1. dgonni
          dgonni 31 May 2021 08: 15
          +1
          On 64ke, the rubber was protected by metal. Internal depreciation as you correctly wrote. For then, in the heads of the generals, a vigorous war with massive infliction of tactical nuclear strikes was common and very likely.
          Well, in the 80s they switched to a different type of suspension due to the greater dynamism and speed thereof, and the large vibration loads in the 64k suspension when driving on concrete and asphalt.
          Although it does not seem to be critical, unpleasant sensations are provided.
          80ka on the concrete goes like a neoplane
      3. 113262a
        113262a 31 May 2021 00: 25
        0
        Will RMSh-64 fight a lot with the burnt out? And with burnt out external fuel and oil tanks? Did you try to set fire to the bandage yourself, or at least the goose pillow?
        1. dgonni
          dgonni 31 May 2021 09: 01
          +1
          The RMS is covered with metal, however, like the oil and solar oil in the outer tanks, they are protected from light radiation. So go by
          1. 113262a
            113262a 31 May 2021 10: 45
            -1
            I ask again, did you set fire to the bandage or the pillow of the same T-80? From radiation, rubber does not care - it does not collapse - the lining is made of it, however, with lead. T-44 and T-55 hundreds in Semipalatinsk were fired at with nuclear charges - there are no problems with the destruction of the bandages! But the clang of non-rubberized rollers unmasks the equipment at once! As is the injection exhaust without a muffler.
      4. Urs
        Urs 31 May 2021 14: 01
        0
        Oops, but the school didn’t tell you about the design of the 64 rink, the rubber band between the hub and the outer support element, about 55 mm. It burned out, too, and the rink fell apart in two.
      5. Sergey Ryumin
        Sergey Ryumin 1 June 2021 08: 02
        0
        If the outer rims burned out, then the tank continued to move, and if the internal depreciation of the T-64 rollers burned out, then a complete hello!
  12. the same doctor
    the same doctor 30 May 2021 15: 50
    +3
    the author should not be enthusiastic about the innovative design, but write about the development of this scheme since 1896-1904. Show what fundamental innovations were introduced and how they worked.
    .
    Specifically for the 5TDF suitcase Yumo. The pistons move in displaced phases - vibration. For part of the cycle, the pistons work against each other - a waste of power. Oil gets stuck in the intake and exhaust ports - the wildest oil maker. well, two crankshafts - complicate the transmission.
    .
    In new conditions, the scheme can be revived. There are several ideas.
    1. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 30 May 2021 17: 55
      0
      Well, she was reanimated at 6TD))) but I'm afraid that the problems remain.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. 113262a
        113262a 31 May 2021 00: 29
        0
        And where did he write the crap? The fact that at TDC the pistons do not come in the same cylinder at the same time? So it's a fact! The phase shift is provided, the materiel is such!
        1. Bobik012
          Bobik012 5 June 2021 01: 24
          0
          Let's start with the fact that, as such, there is no TDC in this engine. The fact that the pistons do not move strictly towards each other is due to the gas distribution phases, because one closes the inlet ports, the second - the outlet. If you studied TMM, you can understand that with five cylinders, a slight shift in the phases of rotation of the crankshafts (about 10 degrees, as far as I understand, I can be wrong) will not greatly affect the vibration. "Waste of power by running pistons against each other" - there are engineers who are not funny? And how do two crankshafts complicate the TRANSMISSION? In general, in this particular case, the use of 5TDF with its small linear dimensions made it possible to simplify the TRANSMISSION.
          Yah you!
          1. 113262a
            113262a 5 June 2021 18: 56
            0
            The top is dead, as is the bottom of the piston. is in ANY crank mechanism! For each crankshaft, it has its own! About "Waste of power when pistons work against each other" - are there engineers who are not funny? And how do two crankshafts complicate the TRANSMISSION? -This is not for me, although there is a reason here-the second shaft-auxiliary, plays a role more than the CAMSHAFT in the classics. By the way, in racing motorcycle motors in the 50-60s there were a lot of such schemes. According to Newton's first law, don't care which crankshaft to take the moment from. ... So they take it off one, where the flywheel is. But there are really a lot of losses, and there is a whole guitar between the crankshafts with debel gears (by the way, they fly mercilessly!), And the second crankshaft with its entrails and second-order inertial losses, and mechanical pressurization.
  13. Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 30 May 2021 16: 58
    0
    Thank you for the interesting information about the formation of engine building in the USSR.
  14. 2112vda
    2112vda 30 May 2021 17: 25
    +2
    Quote: also a doctor
    In new conditions, the scheme can be revived. There are several ideas.

    It's good! They will just send you with your ideas "into the distance". This stage has already been passed many times. There cannot be a lot of people at the "trough". Well, then, first of all, they look at what they are doing there "in a light Europian". So, as the Nazis wrote at the gates of one of the concentration camps: "Leave all hope, everyone who enters here." It was not for this that the Russian engine building was destroyed so that you climb with your ideas.
  15. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 30 May 2021 18: 03
    +1
    In YouTube there is a video with a racing KrAZ with this engine ... even once participated in road races ...
    1. Urs
      Urs 31 May 2021 14: 26
      0
      Ha, the UTD20 collective farmers took an ear from me and put it on the harvester, finally the car is a beast, one minus the fuel eats more. But this is not a problem, I also supplied them for half the price yes
  16. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 30 May 2021 19: 00
    -2
    The article is interesting. Only this raises doubts
    the cylinder block of the V-2 V-XNUMX was cast from an aluminum alloy. This greetings from the aviators cost the domestic industry dearly during the war years.

    In my opinion, a steel or cast-iron cylinder block would cost even more than the domestic industry - this is how much extra weight a tank would have to carry. But in general, respect to the author. I look forward to continuing.
    1. dgonni
      dgonni 30 May 2021 19: 40
      +2
      During the critical period of the Second World War, V-2 was produced with a cast iron block.
      At least I read about this in the memoirs of Malyshev.
      In general, for a tank that, having driven on a muddy road, throws 2.5-3.5 tons of mud on itself, 300 kg of block weight is nothing!
      1. Bobik012
        Bobik012 30 May 2021 23: 52
        +2
        Replacement of the casting material, especially as complex as a block, leads to serious design changes due to the completely different casting qualities of cast iron and aluminum. And it's not worth talking about serious changes in the technical process, including in the subsequent machining. So the cast-iron blocks V-2 are most likely someone's inventions (I don't think that Malysheva)
    2. Bobik012
      Bobik012 30 May 2021 23: 38
      +2
      In my opinion, a steel or cast-iron cylinder block would cost even more than the domestic industry - this is how much extra weight a tank would have to carry. But in general, respect to the author. I look forward to continuing.

      By the way, not so much (weight, meaning) With the T34 weighing 26 tons (initially), the engine weighed about a ton. Even if half of the mass fell on the block (and in fact less), replacing aluminum with cast iron gave a weight of 200 - 250 kg. Rather, the reasons are in the change in the technological chain (respectively, a decrease in the rate of production). And then, as it were, with aluminum, the problem was solved
    3. 113262a
      113262a 31 May 2021 00: 32
      +1
      The cylinder blocks are already cast-iron, like the crankcase, aluminum is only a PAN, the lower part of the crankcase. Although 0 is not a PAN, its crankcase is dry.
      1. Bobik012
        Bobik012 5 June 2021 00: 38
        0
        The cylinder blocks are already cast-iron, like the crankcase, aluminum is only a PAN, the lower part of the crankcase. Although 0 is not a PAN, its crankcase is dry.


        It’s not like that. Rather, it’s not like that. Well, except for the dry sump. By the way, there is no hike and a crankcase with a pallet, but there is an integrated frame. But it is not exactly. I did not study the design thoroughly
        1. 113262a
          113262a 5 June 2021 18: 59
          0
          And I have studied and have been repairing for 30 years. On the Murom shunting diesel locomotives TGM-23 there is a V-12-400-civilian brother of this V-2. I can list all the delights!
    4. Elturisto
      Elturisto 1 June 2021 17: 25
      +1
      The lack of aluminum is such a meme of the humanities. Silumin (aluminum + silicon) was used for casting blocks, and duralumin rolled products were used in aviation, which are orders of magnitude more difficult to manufacture and process than cast parts from silumin. That is why there are problems with a shortage of metals in aviation. It was impossible to eat, simply by reducing aluminum in tank building, to solve problems with metal in aviation ...
  17. kova1967
    kova1967 30 May 2021 20: 17
    -6
    B-2 DESIGNED by Soviet engineers! There was bokinkaya oil, diesel fuel was cheap. Because of this, the Germans were so eager to capture the Caucasus! All of their tanks were gasoline powered! And this is extremely dangerous !. But we stumbled over Stalingrad! In fact, it is not necessary to say that ours were created according to something plan! Even the engines for our missiles were created by themselves, as they considered the engines from the V-2 to be a dead-end branch! And that Americans fly into space on our engines! Tank engines are the best! What else is needed?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 31 May 2021 13: 29
      +3
      Quote: kova1967
      There was bokinkaya oil, diesel fuel was cheap.

      As of 1941, the B-70 / KB-70 gasoline (for carburetor engines of light, medium and heavy tanks) was planned to provide the Red Army by 95%. But diesel fuel - only 46%.
      Quote: kova1967
      All of their tanks were gasoline powered! And this is extremely dangerous !.

      Heh heh heh ...
      The Germans use on a new tank of a carburetor engine, and not a diesel engine can be explained:
      a) the specifics of the German fuel balance, in which synthetic gasolines, benzene and alcohol mixtures, unsuitable for combustion in diesel engines, play the main role;
      b) the advantage of a carburetor engine over a diesel engine according to such important indicators for the tank as the minimum dimensions possible for a given power, reliable start-up in winter time and ease of manufacture;
      c) a very significant in combat conditions, the percentage of fires of tanks with diesel engines and the lack of significant advantages over carburetor engines in this regard, especially with the competent design of the latter and the availability of reliable automatic fire extinguishers;
      d) the short service life of tank engines due to the extremely low survivability of tanks in combat conditions, due to which the cost of gasoline saved when a diesel engine is used on a tank does not have time to justify the increased consumption of alloy steels and highly skilled labor required for the manufacture of a diesel engine, no less scarce in wartime than liquid fuel.
      © NIIBTP report, 1942
      In the fall of 1942, gasoline T-70s burned less often than diesel T-34s.
      1. Bobik012
        Bobik012 5 June 2021 01: 39
        0
        The reason for the design of diesel engines for tractors, tanks and aviation (one of the reasons) was just the presence of a large volume of heavy fractions of oil distillation and the need to use them in some way. But gasoline, especially of high quality, was in short supply.
  18. Protos
    Protos 31 May 2021 00: 10
    +2
    Quote: 113262
    It’s not in the mechvod, to change the nozzles-hemorrhoids, to tighten the fuel pipes - it’s the same, already at 5 heat, it starts with difficulty, the sound of the exhaust is heard for 5 km, the oil is eating bad. Yes, and the vibration is palpable due to the displacement of the phases of the crankshafts. We still slurp this g-no. So far, 64 in the LDNR are in service. ...

    How do you deal with the hydraulics of the stabilizer of the T-64 gun?
    1. Urs
      Urs 31 May 2021 14: 38
      0
      Why fight with it, the main thing is that there is oil there and all position sensors (in fact, ordinary limit switches) must be adjusted. I was an electrical engineer from the GSVG rembat, providing shooting at the Magdeburg firing range, for almost a year. For all the time there was one accident, the hose burst cylinder raising the feed arm. There the crew is to blame, the t-shirt fell on the end piece, the lever did not go down, and the shot was a rollback of the lever to the bottom and it was on the hydraulic seal, so it exploded. Kipish was finally, I was an extreme investigation belay Well, in short we figured it out, but the car is in a cap to replace the AZ.
      1. 113262a
        113262a 31 May 2021 22: 00
        -1
        At 64 and 80-MZ! Need to know!)))
    2. 113262a
      113262a 31 May 2021 21: 59
      0
      The same as on the T-80, no way! There is no such disease! Works like a clock! Until the water is filled with water instead of hydraulic fluid!
  19. abc_alex
    abc_alex 31 May 2021 10: 08
    +1
    I hope the author will not forget to clarify that Charomsky worked with this engine for only 5 years. In 1959, after Morozov demanded to boost the engine to 120 hp. Charomsky referred to his health condition and retired.
  20. Egorov Oleg
    Egorov Oleg 31 May 2021 10: 18
    +1
    In the article, you forgot to point out that the V-2 and 5TDF diesel engines have German roots, during the union of the outcasts (USSR, Italy, Germany), the Junkers-Motoren-Werke company was developing an aviation diesel engine on the territory of the Soviet Sousa, after Hitler came to power In 1933, the company curtailed its work in the Union and returned to Germany, while the Soviet Union was left with two samples and technical documentation for two diesel engines AD-1 (V-2) and Jumo-205 (5TDF), as well as the company trained during work domestic personnel of domestic engine builders, Morozov laid his eyes on the Jumo-205 engine almost immediately, but the technologies of that time did not allow the industry to master this engine (V-2 was mastered with difficulty). I myself served on the T-64 1985-87 in the GSVG 10 tank Altengrabov (Rosenkrug), the engine, of course, requires clear and correct maintenance according to the regulations, and then there are no complaints about it, but it depends on the training of the crew and the responsible company technician and deputy. for tech.
    1. Urs
      Urs 31 May 2021 14: 46
      0
      Yes, you served as a campaign commander, hence the cunning. It was necessary to find out the opinion of the deputy engineer.
      When at minus 5 the floor of the company does not want to start, when they have not done a double pumping out of the box for storage and the car starts to "fidget" at startup, and if the company starts up, it must be run into the air, otherwise the mechanics of the pamoroki catch white smoke from the exhaust. I will remember shudder wassat
      1. Egorov Oleg
        Egorov Oleg 31 May 2021 16: 15
        +1
        The opinion of the zampotekh mainly concerned the fact that in a battalion for 30 tanks, 5 modifications and difficulties with the provision of some spare parts, in the boxes we had no problems with starting the engines, in the field it was a bit tough. I served as a tank commander, as you correctly noted.
        1. Urs
          Urs 31 May 2021 16: 18
          +1
          Well then, praise the company’s assistant, he was doing his job well.
          And his main duty is to ensure that the commander has no problems with the equipment. By the way, it was because of the increased complexity of the new equipment that the position of the pompotech was replaced by a deputy. on armament and she became an officer
    2. Normal
      Normal 5 June 2021 19: 47
      0
      Quote: Oleg Egorov
      ...... two samples and technical documentation for two diesel engines AD-1 (V-2) ..

      Name, setra! Name!!
      Infu bro! Infu !!

      Quote: Oleg Egorov
      and Jumo-205 (5TDF)

      Info on this issue will also not be superfluous.
      My gratitude will have no boundaries.
      Within reasonable limits and within the site, my support and cooperation.
  21. Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 31 May 2021 13: 31
    +2
    Yes - I remember this squalor based on B2 - 1D12 and its one-row "trim" 1D6.

    An attempt to put this "trimmed" squalor on the DZ-98 motor graders resulted in a lot of complaints: the 1D6 did not start well in the cold, did not work well, and the warranty resource for the best copies barely exceeded 750 hours (with a warranty of 1500!), While the YaMZ-238 series went from 3500 to 5000 hours to the capital.
    As a result, several dozen graders with 2001D2002 engines accumulated in the parking lot of the plant in 1-6, from which everyone refused.
    As a result, something was sold, something was remotorized at YaMZ, but never again this squalor on the basis of B2 did not get to the assembly!
    Anything can be called a "masterpiece", but the performance characteristics do not reflect all the inferiority and low resource of the structure!
    By the way, there have been many attempts to convert various military engines.
    For example, from what people from the ChTZ test site told me, they tried to attach the engine from the BMP to the ChTZ tractors - they designed a checkpoint to increase the torque - a fiasco, the gears flew blue and flew without working out the resource.

    Even now, the situation in the engine building of the Russian Federation is deplorable. Rarely is a locally made engine capable of working up to a capital of 7500 hours.
    For comparison, fireplaces of joint production in China of 4BT, 6BTA or NT855 series work out more than 20000 engine hours before overhaul.
  22. Sergey Ryumin
    Sergey Ryumin 31 May 2021 15: 38
    +1
    How much has already been written about this suitcase ... But each time they write something "new". Let's start with the fact that all tank engines have an output of 2000 rpm and no one forced them in terms of rpm, only in torque. Even the turbine ed. 29 (39) have the same output rpm. I at one time at the factory "Russian Diesel" was familiar with the ship monster of the RAP. Everything can be forgiven in this scheme except for the constructive passage of oil from the crankcase to the cylinders. This cannot be avoided! If it is possible to install an oil trap and an oil regenerator in the space of the ship, then there is simply no room in the tank and the oil flies in barrels into the exhaust system, especially at high loads and sagging speed. The only priority in installing this motor was its size. It was placed coaxially with the BKP, unlike the V12 where the guitar had to be made. Ejection cooling also did not please the tankers. In the last battles in the LDNR, the T-64 boiled like samovars. You can write for a long time, about why in the mid-80s Kharkov was given a part of the series on the classic T-80 and why it did not work out, but I will not. So many people know.
  23. Pavel57
    Pavel57 31 May 2021 15: 40
    0
    I never thought about how much aluminum was spent on the B-2. Perhaps his absence from aviation was more critical. If the diesel was made entirely of steel, would this greatly affect the size of the tanks?
    1. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 1 June 2021 13: 23
      0
      Quote: Pavel57
      I never thought about how much aluminum was spent on the B-2. Perhaps his absence from aviation was more critical. If the diesel was made entirely of steel, would this greatly affect the size of the tanks?


      This would give a minus to the cost, + 600-700 kg to the mass of the engine, + to manufacturability, to reliability.

      The V-30 diesel engine, which was basically developed in the 2s, and its subsequent modernization, even at the beginning of the 1,9st century, are characterized by high specific parameters, their specific weight is only 2 kg / l. with. (for V-160), and the specific fuel consumption - 175-XNUMX g / l. s. h. The disadvantages are mainly due to technological and other limitations that existed at the time of the development of the engine and its production, in particular:

      ineffective operation of oil scraper rings of an outdated design - as a result, high oil consumption for waste - 20 g / l. s. h;
      4 valves per cylinder inherited from the aircraft design, unnecessary with less power;
      a complex scheme of camshaft drives, containing a large number of mechanical transmissions (in the 1930s, there were no drive chains capable of operating at high speeds) - as a result, an increased noise level, a low resource, and difficulty in maintenance;
      a complex prefabricated crankshaft, the cost of which is about 30% of the entire engine - in the 1930s there were no methods of volumetric stamping of such large parts;
      ineffective electric starting system (low efficiency of the ST-712 starter, suboptimal gear ratio).
      high rate of pressure growth on the piston group (the so-called stiffness of the engine), leading to a decrease in the total resource. The reason for this is not entirely effective mixture formation, which is largely due to the chosen shape of the combustion chamber, the number of nozzle openings and some other details.
      the lack of joint balancing of the crankshaft and the flywheel does not significantly increase the resource.
      assembly and tuning of the engine using low-skilled labor led to production defects, especially in the first war months. Due to the lack of high-quality valve adjustment, the complex multi-gear design of the transmission from the flywheel to the timing, the meeting of valves with pistons became a very frequent occurrence. Engines of the first releases could not always reach the standard 50 operating hours even in bench conditions; at the same time, the design, for all its complexity, still provided high maintainability, up to the engine bulkhead in the field.


      For aluminum, heat transfer is 4 times higher than that of cast iron, it would be necessary to modernize the cooling system.
      For a tank, the weight perfection of the engine is not as critical as in aviation.
  24. sirim
    sirim 1 June 2021 16: 33
    +2
    He served on the T-64A with 5TDF - the engine was unreliable, easily overheated.
  25. Farewell
    Farewell 1 June 2021 18: 20
    0
    Quote: Flashpoint

    Rotary Mazda is a bit different example. This is the case when they tried but failed. For RX-8 - every 25 km of run - either a capital of the engine (000 USD of work + 2500 USD of spare parts) or a new engine or (here it is generally useless) from a disassembly / contractor. Essentially like a weekend car, for the soul.

    You cut the sturgeon a little. In domestic conditions, the resource of a Mazda rotary engine is weaving. In the Zubgorye - up to two hundred. And two and a half kilobax is work plus a repair kit. The resource of the VAZ rotor, by the way, is about the same.