Military Review

Why did the Russians survive and Hitler's lightning war failed?

394

P.A.Krivonogov. Defenders of the Brest Fortress. 1951 g.


Disaster of 1941


The summer and autumn of 1941 were terrifying for Russia and our people. One military disaster after another! It seemed that the Germans had already won! A significant part of the cadre of the Red Army was beaten or captured on the western borders! We have lost almost all aviation and most tanks... The Baltic Fleet suffered heavy losses and was trapped in the Gulf of Finland, where it was threatened with complete destruction after the fall of Leningrad. The Germans immediately captured the Baltic States, Belarus, the ancient Russian capital - Kiev, surrounded Leningrad - the second capital of the Union, rushed to Moscow.

We have lost three of the four main industrial regions of the country. Much of the industry was partially paralyzed by the hasty, emergency evacuation. Millions of Soviet people were under occupation, significantly weakening the mobilization potential of the USSR. Huge reserves were abandoned or lost in the western regions of Russia weapons, ammunition, equipment, ammunition, provisions and fuel. The west of the country plunged into disaster. Fear, panic or apathy gripped millions of people.

In essence, everything happened as the Nazis planned. They could have written the 1941 summer campaign on their list of triumphant victories. Together with the campaigns of 1940 - spring 1941. They also thought in London and Washington. A red colossus with feet of clay was believed in the West to fall. A small fraction of such a catastrophe that befell Russia would be enough for any Western country to kneel down and ask for mercy.

But Soviet civilization not only did not fall, it intensified its resistance. The Russians continued to fight fiercely, tried to counterattack, died, but did not surrender! The Soviet government, which, as the West thought the people hated, not only held on, but organized defense, adjusted the war economy machine, and mobilized the country and the people. Moreover, the Soviets still managed to engage in propaganda, education and culture.

Why did the Russians survive and Hitler's lightning war failed?
Soldiers of the underground garrison. Artist N. Ya.But, 1964

Battle of two technomagic civilizations


This did not fit in the minds of not only the Germans, but also the British, Americans and other Frenchmen.

How? Why? How are the Russians still holding out?

The Germans, having started a war with the USSR, faced a new type of enemy. With a different civilization.

Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway, Belgium, France and England belonged to Western civilization. These were industrial (or industrial-agrarian) societies with a democratic trade system based on a collegial, democratic beginning and the rule of contractual principles.

Outwardly, the Soviet Union was also part of this group. The country most of it stories was governed by a collegial body (Central Committee, Politburo), which acted according to certain rules (the charter of the Communist Party). The USSR in the 30s became an industrial state, with a predominance of the urban population and trade and production activities.

However, for all its proximity to the West, Russia-USSR was a different civilization.

With a developed tradition, archaic principles. In particular, the Russian community, which under Soviet rule was transformed into collective farms, state farms, production artels and factory collectives. Where the general is higher than the particular, spirit is higher than matter, and truth is higher than formal law.

Russia, like the Third Reich, was a technomagical civilization with a strong communal, corporate beginning. People united in structures dedicated to a great idea, goal and common cause. The people could act as one superpersonality. In unity.

The USSR, like the Reich, was an ideocracy (with the rule of ideas and ideals). In this he was fundamentally different from other, Western social systems.

As a result, one technomagic civilization collided with another.

One "guest from the future" tried to destroy the other. A battle of titans and priests broke out. The "black sun" of the Reich attacked the red civilization of the future.

And the Russians withstood such blows that struck everyone else on the spot!

Hitler's fatal mistake


Having attacked us on June 22, 1941, Hitler was counting only on a blitzkrieg. To shock and awe. Only to the complete destruction of the consciousness of Russians and their demoralization. For internal disintegration, with the possibility of military revolts, peasant, urban uprisings against Soviet power. To the "parade of sovereignties", to the uprising of the national separatists.

Otherwise, the war could lead to very grave consequences for Germany. The Reich, people, army and economy were not ready for a protracted war. To a war of attrition. The economy and people were only partially mobilized. The army was not ready to fight in the winter. Lack of strategic resources. With the threat of a second front.

Hitler's plan was clear. It partly coincided with the thoughts of his French predecessor, Napoleon. He wanted to inflict such terrible blows on the Russians at the beginning of the war, after which the campaign would be won before winter came. Moscow will ask for peace on any, even the most humiliating conditions. Option Brest-2.

Or a catastrophe on the external fronts and a complete collapse inside will force the Soviet leadership to flee abroad (as the Polish government and high command fled). A disorganized and demoralized country will be easily occupied.

It was also possible a variant of a military coup, which would displace Stalin and bring to power the generals who would pursue a policy in the interests of Germany, focus on it. But here the Germans missed the fact that Stalin before the war was able to destroy most of the "fifth column", including the military opposition.

Therefore, the German armies rushed to the three main cities of Russia - Kiev, Leningrad and Moscow. The capture of three sacred centers for Russian meant a deep psychological defeat of our consciousness. The auxiliary effects of Hitler's blitzkrieg against the USSR should have been the entry of Japan and Turkey into the war against us. This could lead to the complete collapse of the Soviet (Russian) statehood and civilization. Hence the fierce resistance of the Russians near Moscow.

"Russia is great, but nowhere to retreat!"

The words of M. Lermontov echoed from the past:

"Guys! Isn't Moscow behind us? Let us die near Moscow, as our brothers died! "

The Russian genetic code has worked!

The Russian people-hero woke up! The German "superior race" faced an enemy that was roughly the same test. But the ideal of the Russian (Soviet) people was not a slave-owning order, but a "bright future", a society based on the principles of justice, love, labor and help to one's neighbor. A society of knowledge, service and creation. The Nazis paved their bright future with the bones and blood of enemies, turning the survivors into slavery. The Russians proposed an alternative world - the co-prosperity of peoples, without parasitism and exploitation.

Colossus on clay feet


To be honest, Hitler had good reason to fully believe in his success.

Interestingly, the United States, Britain and the whole world also believed in Germany's victory in a very short time. The successes of the Third Reich in Western and Southern Europe were evident. The world community has not yet discerned the new Red Empire. The Soviet state was just born. As well as the new imperial Russian (Red) army. An industrial power, education and science have recovered from the ashes. High culture and art.

The whole world, including Germany, saw the Russian catastrophe of 1917-1920. The Russian empire exploded with terrible force. She had to disappear from the historical arena, like the Habsburg Empire or the Ottoman Empire. Turn into a bunch of new territories that will be colonized and "mastered" by the West. In place of Russia, not only Finland, Poland, the three Baltic republics, the Transcaucasian and North Caucasian republics and imamates arose, but also independent Ukraine, the Kuban and Don, the Tatar Crimea, Novorossia, the Donetsk-Kryvyi Rih Republic, Eastern Belarus, North-Western, Northern and Central republics, Siberia (controlled by the Americans and the Japanese) and Primorye. It is possible that the Kazan (Tatar-Bashkir) republic, plus the fragmented Turkestan.

There were also other plans for the creation of various "independent" states. For example, the idea of ​​an independent Kamchatka. It was proposed there to withdraw ship-repair equipment from Vladivostok and create a small state under the rule of one of the Romanovs. The Reds, they say, will not be able to keep the navy, the remnants will ruin. And it is very difficult to get there on dry land. Therefore, Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky can live off fishing, hunting, shipbuilding. Establish trade with the United States and Japan. It is clear that in this case Kamchatka would immediately become a protectorate of Japan or America. The Japanese or the Americans would receive a territory rich in raw materials, a base for fleet and aviation.

It is obvious that all these independent, "banana" republics, khanates and chieftains were doomed to become beggars, agrarian, raw material bantustans. With paper currencies mired in debt to banks in England, France, the United States and Japan. With weak and backward armies that could easily defeat the punitive forces of the great industrial powers. Their main role is raw materials, suppliers of coal, oil, ore, timber, flax, food, etc. Sources of cheap labor and sales markets, strategic positions (Sevastopol, Odessa, Murmansk, Arkhangelsk, Vladivostok, etc.).

At the head of all these "sovereignties" would be democrats, socialists, constantly gnawing at each other, feudal lords or weak military dictators. All of them would be sold, would have had their own "business", would have taken out personal capital and families to the "civilized world."

A similar situation was in China at the beginning of the XNUMXth century: a beggar, hungry and dying people in drug dreams, the comprador bourgeoisie selling people's wealth (including values ​​from the graves of their ancestors), a corrupt and completely corrupt bureaucracy. The territory divided between foreigners, regional generals and barons, drug dealers and other gangs, nationalists, rebels, etc.

As a result, the wreckage of the Russian Empire would sooner or later be mastered by the great powers and neighbors.

All our neighbors - Finland, Poland, Japan, Turkey and even barely living China - had their own views of the Russian lands. Millions of Russians faced the fate of second and third class people, subhumans and slaves of foreign masters. Plus oppression and oppression on the part of various national regimes, which would immediately remember about the "Russian colonialists" and the "prison of peoples". Under these conditions, the Russian superethnos became ethnographic material for other more viable nations. Russians were erased from world history. Then it was only necessary to rewrite the history, which is written by the winners, once again. Come up with new peoples - Ukrainians, Krivichs, Siberians, etc. Destroy the name of Russia and the Russians as if they never existed.

Soviet civilization


Thank God, the Bolsheviks broke all these plans for the dismemberment and "development" of Russia. They literally performed a miracle.

They raised the red banner of the working people, managed to defeat the main forces of the enemy (whites, interventionists, nationalists, Basmachi, bandits), and almost completely reunited the collapsed empire. And Stalin completed this process. And even improved strategic positions in the west and east. Russian communists created a new world, a planet-country called "USSR". In fact, it was a breakthrough into the future, a leap forward for centuries.

In literally one decade, Russians have not only caught up with the leading Western countries in the field of economics, science, technology and education. They escaped from the bestial present into the future. They offered mankind an alternative to the slave-owning, predatory order. A world without social parasitism, exploitation of man by man. A world of social justice, ethics of honest labor and conscience (instead of religions that served the ruling classes). A society of knowledge, service and creation. Where is a person, not a slave or master-slave owner, but a creator, a creator. Where he can fully reveal his physical, intellectual and spiritual potential.

But in the early 20s, Russia was a typical finished country. There are no friends and allies, the world around us is completely hostile. The economy and transport were destroyed during the world and the most brutal Civil War. The industrial potential, which was already weak, was severely degraded. Agriculture fell back into archaism, to subsistence farming. The gold reserves were taken out and plundered. Western countries will not give loans for development. A significant part of the educated, scientific and technical personnel fled the country. The society is sick, demoralized, permeated with nihilism. The confrontation between town and country persists, which at any moment can cause a new outbreak of turmoil, a second peasant war. A powerful fifth column that the West can use. That is, at any moment Soviet Russia could again collapse into chaos. And without any chance of salvation.

However, the communists performed a second miracle.

The evil fate was deceived again. With a dazzling dream, a great and beautiful idea, an incendiary word, and somewhere with "iron and blood" they again mobilized the country. And in an unprecedentedly short time, they built a great power with a powerful industry, developed agriculture, advanced science and education, and powerful armed forces. Literally in an instant they put an end to illiteracy, banditry, unemployment and homeless children, trained millions of specialists in science and technology, education and culture.

The dash of the 1930s looks fantastic!

The USSR was much ahead of its time, looked like an alien from a beautiful far away.

To be continued ...
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  1. Ilya-spb
    Ilya-spb 27 May 2021 03: 53
    +20
    Eh, it would be good even now our people have escaped from the pernicious capitalist dreams ...
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 27 May 2021 04: 17
      +9
      The USSR was much ahead of its time, looked like an alien from a beautiful far away.
      "The beautiful is far away, do not be cruel to me" ...
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 27 May 2021 06: 53
        +24
        ... A small fraction of such a catastrophe that befell Russia would be enough for any Western country to kneel down and ask for mercy.

        But Soviet civilization not only did not fall, it increased resistance

        Not a single capitalist country could withstand the onslaught of Hitlerite Germany. Until Hitler attacked Soviet Russia.

        In a socialist country, people had something to defend. And the ideological leadership, firm in spirit, not burdened with luxury, palaces, yachts and foreign property, led the people to the end in an irreconcilable struggle against fascism.

        If we imagine instead of the ideological and strong-willed Stalin Nikolashka or the unprincipled current leaders who hammer the symbol of victory on Red Square with plywood every year, then I strongly doubt that such a result will be repeated.
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 27 May 2021 08: 47
          -10%
          None of them survived? But what about Britain, which had been at war with Hitler for two years by this time and did not surrender? wassat
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 27 May 2021 09: 04
            +27
            Quote: BlackMokona
            But what about Britain, which is already two years old by this time fought with Hitler and did not give up?

            Hitler fought Britain, but not Britain. The war for Britain was of a remote geographical character, mainly sea. Maybe this is the whole point, have you ever wondered?
            1. Torins
              Torins 27 May 2021 10: 13
              -22%
              The ruined cities of Britain applaud you, especially Coventry, from which there is no stone unturned))
              1. avia12005
                avia12005 27 May 2021 10: 27
                +19
                Britain fought well, and lost about 60 thousand people during the German bombardments. Conclusion: the Fuhrer bombed not to defeat the Anglo-Saxons, but to encourage them to conclude a treaty.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Old electrician
                Old electrician 27 May 2021 17: 03
                +22
                The ruined cities of Britain applaud you, especially Coventry, from which there is no stone unturned))

                In the fifties, my parents went to Celina. Local aksakals told them about the war like this:
                What is Hitler's war! The war was here! The ataman will roll out the pipe to the mountain, twelve horsemen sit in the yurt, drink tea, and as he gives it out of this pipe - some malakhai are lying!
                - here we are talking about a minor episode of the Civil War, when the ataman Semyonov heroically skidded from the Reds. Out of impotent rage, he fired several three-inch shrapnel through the auls on the move. For more, he did not have time and ammunition. As you can see, everyone has their own history and everything is learned in comparison.
                The Germans bombed Coventry in 1940-1942, as a result of which it was practically destroyed. The bombing raids of 1940-1942 in Coventry killed a total of 1236 people. Of these, 808 are buried in a mass grave at the London Road cemetery. Other victims included volunteers who worked in the city of Coventry during the war, their bodies were taken home by relatives. Many bodies have never been identified.
                Stalingrad became Coventry's brother during the war. By August 1942 - the beginning of the total bombing of the city, there were 550 thousand people in Stalingrad (including 25 thousand people evacuated to the city). Of these, before the bombing, only about 100 thousand people were evacuated from the city. In an organized way, mainly from the least affected areas of the garden, another 40 thousand were able to evacuate by the end of the fighting.
                Due to the complexity of the situation in the city, it is impossible to establish exactly how much of the civilian population of Stalingrad died. There is, for example, an estimate that only during the bombing on August 23, 1942, about 90 thousand civilians were killed.
                After the targeted bombing of the civilian population of the city, the troubles of the Stalingradians did not end. Fighting began within the city and the occupation. Deputy Head of the Special Department of the NKVD of the Stalingrad Front, State Security Major Yevgeny Goryainov, informed the leadership about the situation in the occupied regions of Stalingrad, reporting massive incidents of atrocities by the occupiers, robberies and murders of civilians, including children and adolescents.
                On February 2, 1943 - by the victorious finale of the grandiose battle, 32181 people remained of Stalingrad, mainly in the southern part of the city, and only 7 (!) Civilians survived in the central region.
                Quote:
                The bombing of Coventry marked the beginning of a new era of all-out air raids. German military pilots introduced a new term: "Coventry raids", which meant bombing, leading to the complete destruction of the object. Subsequently, the Americans will call such bombing "carpet".

                The annihilation of the inhabitants of Stalingrad today does not signify anything else. These are not Jews! Therefore, Kolya from Urengoy touchedly repents in the Bundestag for the Germans who were basely killed at Stalingrad.
                As for me, I believe that the bombing of England by the Germans was purely propagandistic in nature. The same as the shelling of Kazakh auls by Ataman Semyonov. As we can see from your example and the example of Kazakh elders, both there and there, the success of the propaganda campaign is complete.
                1. TANKISTONE
                  TANKISTONE 28 May 2021 08: 53
                  -3
                  Old Electrician (Victor)
                  In the fifties, my parents went to Celina. Local aksakals told them about the war like this:
                  There is another opinion (from a colleague in the past):





                  Here is a link: https://ok.ru/profile/578366491499/statuses/153385488932203
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 28 May 2021 11: 29
                    +4
                    Quote: TANKISTONE
                    Here is a link: https://ok.ru/profile/578366491499/statuses/153385488932203

                    And where is the primary source - well, at least a memoir, confirming that it was Beloborodov who said it, and not Kazakh nationalists invented this lie?
                    By the way, this is what Beloborodov himself said:
                    "..And the scribblers always lie. During the war, do you know how they wrote? "The badly battered enemy continues the cowardly offensive."

                    “... Yakubovsky was a very healthy man. Imagine: he opened the bottle of Borjomi with the nail of his thumb so that the cork flew away for ten meters! ”

                    “... No, brother, I was much inferior to Zhukov. Yes, actually, I don’t give you any equal to him and I can’t. Everything about him was: talent, cruelty, and fierce lust for power. There were no others like that in our army. Perhaps never was. Yes, and never again ... "

                    “... But in general, the flimsy and frail officer is now gone. You on him: woof! - and he immediately faints.

                    "... The most just in the world BUP (combat regulations of the infantry. - MZ) as it says: everyone must support the one who first rushed to the attack."

                    "... But Rodion Malinovsky said: to criticize the boss is like kissing a bear - a lot of fear, but no pleasure."

                    "...No, Mustache was not. I will not live, but you will see, they will once again begin to exalt him. They will definitely start. There were such personalities as Stalin in Russia: Grozny, Peter I, and he. Everything. The rest are not even close!»
                    https://topwar.ru/112969-general-beloborodov-odin-iz-teh-kto-spas-moskvu.html
                    1. TANKISTONE
                      TANKISTONE 31 May 2021 13: 59
                      0
                      ccsr (ccsr)
                      And where is the primary source - well, at least a memoir
                      And you follow the link to a friend on the page, and ask yourself. I have no desire and mood to persuade the "descendants of Genghis Khan" ...
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 31 May 2021 17: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: TANKISTONE
                        And you follow the link to a friend on the page

                        Nafig I need him, if not he posted this text here.
                        Quote: TANKISTONE
                        I have no desire and mood to persuade the "descendants of Genghis Khan" ...

                        Then don't drag all the lies they make up here.
                      2. TANKISTONE
                        TANKISTONE 10 June 2021 18: 18
                        0
                        ccsr (ccsr)
                        Nafig I need him, if not he posted this text here.
                        ... Then don't drag all the lies they make up here.

                        Do you need a "primary source", or a general picture of the change in the brain of the descendants of brothers in arms ???
                2. Old electrician
                  Old electrician 29 May 2021 06: 27
                  +3
                  Quoting TANKISTONE:
                  Kazakhs, armed only with sabers, were thrown against German tanks to buy time by sacrificing "unnecessary" Asians
                  - my friend! You even surpassed Goebbels! He at least put the Polish uhlans on horses, and you threw the Kazakhs with penknives under the tanks on foot. Along the way, I would like to clarify. Where did the mean Russians get so many sabers for the unfortunate Asian Kazakhs? Since the adoption of checkers of the 1881 model of the year, there were no sabers in service with the tsarist army and the Red Army. And the last thing. Ask your best Kazakh about how he robbed and drove Russian families out of apartments and houses under Goebbels' propaganda "about the Russians who sent Asian Kazakhs to death".
                  1. TANKISTONE
                    TANKISTONE 31 May 2021 13: 54
                    0
                    Old Electrician (Victor)
                    - my friend! You even surpassed Goebbels!
                    "My friend", you are not careful! I gave a link to the source of a colleague's tape in the past. This speaks of the mood in one of the former fraternal republics! And also fellow compatriots who are pale-faced send video and audio files to a popular messenger: everything is there, like in organizations banned in Russia ...
                3. Zug
                  Zug 29 May 2021 16: 55
                  +3
                  In short, the Kazakhs won the war, with the Bashkirs. From the Russian veterans about the Kazakhs, a slightly different opinion "mine yours does not understand" - until you hit the boss with the handle of a pistol, pinch in the trenches.
            2. Doliva63
              Doliva63 27 May 2021 18: 41
              +13
              Quote: Torins
              The ruined cities of Britain applaud you, especially Coventry, from which there is no stone unturned))

              Learn the materiel, however. The British knew about the raid on Coventry in advance, but did not take any measures. It was more profitable that way.
              1. Old electrician
                Old electrician 28 May 2021 04: 48
                +4
                Learn the materiel, however. The British knew about the raid on Coventry in advance, but did not take any measures. It was more profitable that way.
                - another Kolya from Urengoy? I love illiterate teachers of materiel!
                Indeed, Enigma was hacked in the British. The information obtained during the interception of "Enigma" was codenamed "Ultra" and was intended for distribution to a very limited circle of people
                There is a widespread sensational opinion that the British command allegedly knew about the upcoming enemy air raid on Coventry from decoded radio intercepts, but decided not to strengthen the city's air defense and not warn residents about the danger, as this could show the enemy that British intelligence has the ability to decipher the codes " Enigmas ”, and the codes would have been changed. Thus, the British government allegedly decided to maintain secrecy at the cost of mass casualties and destruction in Coventry. The version comes from Winterbotham's book, Ultra Secret, published in 1974, who was responsible for the security and secrecy of the entire Ultra system.
                This version is confirmed only by the testimony of Winterbotham himself, who allegedly talked about the unfortunate fate of Coventry with Churchill. This version is most similar to self-promotion - the noble intelligence officer warned him in time, but he was not listened to, etc., etc. Just like the home-grown version of the faithful sons of the 22th Congress of the CPSU that the tyrant Stalin was warned almost a year in advance about June 1941, XNUMX, and he ordered to smear the noble scouts into the camp dust. Alas! There is no documentary evidence of Winterbotham's version, as well as other witnesses of his conversation with Churchill. In general, this is called a hyped cheap sensation for raising the circulation of the book.
                In contrast to Winterbotham's version, another British intelligence agent, Peter Calvocoressi, published the TEXTS of the Ultra transcripts in 1980 (Peter Calvocoressi, "Top Secret Ultra", Pantheon Books, 1980). During the war years, Kalvokoressi headed the air force section in Bletchley Park, which was engaged in decoding Luftwaffe messages. In reality, only the fact of the raid and its approximate date were known from the Enigma transcripts. From tracking data for X-Gerät it was assumed that the target would be London, and only at 15:00 (4 hours before the start of the bombardment) it became clear that it would be Coventry. Anti-aircraft batteries were put on alert and an alarm was announced for aviation units, the command was given to turn on the Cold Water system, designed to jam X-Gerät guidance signals, but it did not work. The civil administration was really not warned as it still had no time to evacuate.
                Even if Kalvokoressi's book is considered a falsification, then Winterbotham has no evidence at all in comparison with him.
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 28 May 2021 18: 55
                  -1
                  At the expense of Kolya from Urengoy he laughed laughing
                  And I didn’t come up with the term “coventing”. Maybe you'd better get back to the craft of an electrician? The old electrician does not spoil the wires (proverb) laughing
                  1. Old electrician
                    Old electrician 29 May 2021 06: 51
                    0
                    Doliva63! Or maybe you should stop pretending to be the omniscient navel of the earth and just unlearn to lie? I cited the facts that Coventry, propagandistically advertised in the West, has become a world symbol of human tragedy, while for the much larger-scale destruction of the Soviet population, for example, in Stalingrad, they are diligently forgetting, after which Kolya from Urengoy repent before the Bundestag for killing unfortunate Germans. This idea is clearly not to your liking, you feel sorry for the Germans and Kolya, but not for the Russians. It is obvious that you, too, are Kolya from Urengoy, because in revenge for the British and Germans who offended me, you illiterately attacked me with Enigma, which in general has nothing to do with the topic of the conversation. This is called trying to talk. Here and now:
                    And I didn’t come up with the term “coventing”.
                    - this is your vivid manifestation of megalomania. Do not doubt! Nobody even thinks of you!
                    And the last thing. Even with the brevity of your post about "Enigma", it is clear that the materiel is too heavy for you. Do something more useful. For example, embroider with a cross, and do not climb on a technical site.
                    1. Doliva63
                      Doliva63 29 May 2021 19: 06
                      +2
                      Is VO a technical site? Enough!laughing
                      This is, at best, a site of a military-political orientation, where they often carry such crap that their ears are wrapped up! Why shouldn't I (after 300 gr. With beer) do my bit too? And there is no need to re-educate anyone here - it is pointless. So you have to endure everyone as they are. And you and I, too. Didn't agree, well, they just stopped communicating, didn't they? I didn’t portray myself as an omniscient navel of the earth and I don’t have megalomania, I’m an ordinary old penny MO, that I remember, then I “sing” like it’s grit laughing I read about Enigma for a long time, but I believe what I have read, because I don’t read anything but this site. laughing So let's be more tolerant of each other! drinks
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                    3. Old electrician
                      Old electrician 30 May 2021 07: 35
                      +2
                      I read about Enigma for a long time, but I believe what I have read
                      - Oh well! The main thing is to believe!
                      During the war, the Germans used the X-Gerät ground system to target targets in England. The system directed a radio beam (X-ray), indicating the direction of the bombers to the target. The British took the direction of the X-ray and thus determined the target of the bombing. To counter the X-Gerät, the British turned on their Cold Water system. In theory, it was supposed to "bend" the X-ray past the target. In practice, it never worked. From the moment the Cold Water system was turned on, the Germans knew that the British knew ... Therefore, when German bombers clashed with British air defenses over Coventry, the Germans did not have the slightest shadow of suspicion of hacking the Enigma. They simply had no reason for this. This is, on the one hand.
                      On the other hand, the Enigma encryption machine was based on the use of symmetric encryption algorithms, i.e. the result of Enigma encryption depended on the secret key word. For the correct reception of information in the source machine and the receiver machine, it is necessary to enter the same secret key. If the keys do not match, it is impossible to decrypt the transmission, even if the attackers have the Enigma encryption machine itself. For reasons of secrecy, the Germans changed the keys DAILY, for which the source and the receiver were supplied with cipher books containing the keys. After the completion of the book, it was changed to a new one. The same key has not been used again. Often at the beginning of the transmission, the Germans transmitted the key number in the codebook in unencrypted form. This number gave the British absolutely nothing.
                      From the basics of cryptography, it is obvious that encryptions typed and sent during the day would not be enough to break the cipher. Even if the German agents reported that the Luftwaffe's encryption program about Coventry had been broken by the British, then even in this case they would not have the slightest cause for concern. Knowing only one key, you can read the correspondence in just one day and nothing else.
                      On May 9, 1941, the British captured the German submarine U-110. Together with the submarine, the Enigma cipher machine, cipher book, instructions, etc., etc. were captured in perfect working order.
                      Most likely, the Germans guessed about the capture of Enigma in 1941, but did nothing, piously hoping for the omnipotence of the symmetric encryption algorithm. This is primarily due to the fact that it would take the Germans several years to replace the Enigma, which no one would have given them during the war. In passing, I note that the versions of the Enigma for the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe were different. They had a different encryption system, and the Kriegsmarine encryption system was more complex than the Luftwaffe.
                      Alas for the Germans! The British did not "break" the cipher, but the keys. Moreover, they broke it quickly for both the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe. Therefore, they could read everything that Enigma transmitted on any day.
                      The deceitful version of Winterbotham is designed for a stupid English people who grab everything and are too lazy to learn at least something about Enigma. Formulation of the problem
                      ... as this could show the enemy that British intelligence has the ability to decipher the Enigma codes and the codes would be changed
                      is idiotic at the level of the problem statement. The Germans already changed the codes every day.
                    4. Doliva63
                      Doliva63 1 June 2021 20: 01
                      -1
                      Quote: Old electrician
                      I read about Enigma for a long time, but I believe what I have read
                      - Oh well! The main thing is to believe!
                      During the war, the Germans used the X-Gerät ground system to target targets in England. The system directed a radio beam (X-ray), indicating the direction of the bombers to the target. The British took the direction of the X-ray and thus determined the target of the bombing. To counter the X-Gerät, the British turned on their Cold Water system. In theory, it was supposed to "bend" the X-ray past the target. In practice, it never worked. From the moment the Cold Water system was turned on, the Germans knew that the British knew ... Therefore, when German bombers clashed with British air defenses over Coventry, the Germans did not have the slightest shadow of suspicion of hacking the Enigma. They simply had no reason for this. This is, on the one hand.
                      On the other hand, the Enigma encryption machine was based on the use of symmetric encryption algorithms, i.e. the result of Enigma encryption depended on the secret key word. For the correct reception of information in the source machine and the receiver machine, it is necessary to enter the same secret key. If the keys do not match, it is impossible to decrypt the transmission, even if the attackers have the Enigma encryption machine itself. For reasons of secrecy, the Germans changed the keys DAILY, for which the source and the receiver were supplied with cipher books containing the keys. After the completion of the book, it was changed to a new one. The same key has not been used again. Often at the beginning of the transmission, the Germans transmitted the key number in the codebook in unencrypted form. This number gave the British absolutely nothing.
                      From the basics of cryptography, it is obvious that encryptions typed and sent during the day would not be enough to break the cipher. Even if the German agents reported that the Luftwaffe's encryption program about Coventry had been broken by the British, then even in this case they would not have the slightest cause for concern. Knowing only one key, you can read the correspondence in just one day and nothing else.
                      On May 9, 1941, the British captured the German submarine U-110. Together with the submarine, the Enigma cipher machine, cipher book, instructions, etc., etc. were captured in perfect working order.
                      Most likely, the Germans guessed about the capture of Enigma in 1941, but did nothing, piously hoping for the omnipotence of the symmetric encryption algorithm. This is primarily due to the fact that it would take the Germans several years to replace the Enigma, which no one would have given them during the war. In passing, I note that the versions of the Enigma for the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe were different. They had a different encryption system, and the Kriegsmarine encryption system was more complex than the Luftwaffe.
                      Alas for the Germans! The British did not "break" the cipher, but the keys. Moreover, they broke it quickly for both the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe. Therefore, they could read everything that Enigma transmitted on any day.
                      The deceitful version of Winterbotham is designed for a stupid English people who grab everything and are too lazy to learn at least something about Enigma. Formulation of the problem
                      ... as this could show the enemy that British intelligence has the ability to decipher the Enigma codes and the codes would be changed
                      is idiotic at the level of the problem statement. The Germans already changed the codes every day.

                      Didn't understand how you can break the key, which is different every day?
        2. Bogatyrev
          Bogatyrev 28 May 2021 00: 26
          +5
          Here I do not agree.
          If the Germans landed on the islands, the British would capitulate.
          That would be perfectly visible on the example of the history of the occupation of the islands of Guernsey, where there was no resistance from the British population. At all.
        3. Viktor Sergeev
          Viktor Sergeev 28 May 2021 09: 18
          +5
          Poor things, how hard it was for them. There was nothing to nurture Hitler in the hope of sending him to the USSR. It is a pity that they received little, they deserved it in full. No need to talk about destroyed cities, in comparison with what happened to our cities it was not a bombardment, but stroking with a hand.
        4. fighter angel
          fighter angel 28 May 2021 10: 31
          +4
          Yes, the destruction of English cities was. But they did not stand close to the scale of the destruction of Soviet cities. Nobody robbed the Angles, did not rape, did not shoot without trial or investigation, did not drive them into slavery, did not force them to work, did not starve them in concentration camps, did not put inhuman experiments on them. The fascist boot did not walk on their island. But the fact that these very "poor" and the most "suffered" from fascism, the Angles then got up in Germany, carpet-erasing cities from the world map, all this has long been to be characterized as a war crime and terror against the civilian population.
      2. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 27 May 2021 10: 21
        -12%
        And the battle for Britain in the air, the constant exchange of bombings?
        A battle for the seas around Britain?
        Britain's constant attempts to fight in Europe, fitting in for every country where Hitler flew?
        There were landings in Norway and Greece with battles.
        And that the blitzkrieg worked badly against the island state, and against the huge state, it also turned out to be not very good. It is difficult to end a war with lightning speed when fighting against such a huge country as the USSR
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 27 May 2021 10: 55
          +17
          Quote: BlackMokona
          And the battle for Britain in the air, a constant exchange of bombing?
          Bits over the seas around Britain?

          Quote: Torins
          The ruined cities of Britain applaud you

          If only such of the battle were on the Eastern Front, then Hitler not only would not have reached Moscow, but he would not have taken the Bret Fortress. Because it is possible to occupy the territory only in land battles, which, to the great Anglo-Saxon happiness, did not exist in Britain.
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 27 May 2021 11: 03
            -9
            Well, thanks to victories in the air and at sea, land battles with the defeat of Britain did not take place.
            And so the Germans made a revolution in the land doctrine, but in the sea and air they did not show anything like that.
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 27 May 2021 11: 29
              +9
              Quote: BlackMokona
              Well, thanks to victories in the air and at sea, land battles with the defeat of Britain did not take place.

              thanks separation of the islanders by the sea (strait) from the continent.

              Hitler simply had nothing to move in time huge masses of troops and tanks. And it was also impossible to covertly carry out the operational deployment of the displaced armies necessary to win a land battle, in which the Germans had no equal before the attack on the USSR.
              1. Blackmokona
                Blackmokona 27 May 2021 12: 42
                -7
                There was something, they stole a lot of all kinds of vehicles throughout Europe and could produce them on a large scale.
                The problem is that they could not provide control of the English Channel for a sufficient time to land the required number of troops. Too fast the British are planning to start a complete beating of all transported.
                And it would not be difficult to defeat the British further, they have already done this many times with the British in different places.
                1. Stas157
                  Stas157 27 May 2021 13: 44
                  +12
                  Quote: BlackMokona
                  It was than

                  Oh really?

                  The largest landing of troops in world history was the landing of allied troops in Normandy. Only 156 thousand people were able to land. And that was a super achievement.

                  For comparison, 4-5 million people took part in the attack on the USSR from Germany. Could the Germans have landed that much in Britain? They wouldn't have landed 150 thousand! Because the Germans' capabilities in terms of landing were much more modest than the Americans and the British.

                  150 thousand Germans under the command of Manstein participated in a local operation to seize Crimea. Bustard hunting. This was very little for the capture of England. And of course the Germans would never have reached Moscow if one hundred and fifty thousand people took part in the operation of Barbarossa instead of millions.
                2. Blackmokona
                  Blackmokona 27 May 2021 15: 20
                  -10%
                  Well, in case of victory in the air and at sea, the troops will continuously arrive, as it was in France. Wave after wave of millions of soldiers arrived in France
                3. Stas157
                  Stas157 27 May 2021 16: 33
                  +5
                  Quote: BlackMokona
                  Well, with a victory in the air and at sea troops will arrive continuously as it was in France.

                  But who will give them a foothold, and then line up in battle formations? The British would simply dare to attack 150 thousand attackers all over Great Britain. Not a single chance was left. They just wouldn't be allowed to land.

                  There is no need to compare with France, where the Germans sent children and disabled people to fight. All those who did not fit on the Eastern Front. And the British did not have any Eastern front, where they would be stuck up to their ears.
        2. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 27 May 2021 12: 41
          -4
          Do not forget, Hitler fought not with the British Isles, but with the British Empire. Where not spit empire. In Africa empire, Middle East - empire, India - empire, Southeast Asia - and there damn empire. By the way, Paris was liberated by the Free French troops, consisting of blacks.
          1. Igor Aviator
            Igor Aviator 27 May 2021 23: 07
            +1
            Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
            Paris was liberated by the troops of the Free French, consisting of blacks.

            By the way, have you ever wondered why the Anglo-Saxons began the landing in Normandy only during the period of the beginning of hostilities of the Red Army in Germany? We were afraid that ALL Europe would fall under the influence of the Union! But the Red Army was quite capable of reaching Gibraltar and Lisbon in the heat, they could not allow this in any way.
        3. neri73-r
          neri73-r 27 May 2021 15: 04
          +5
          Quote: BlackMokona
          Well, thanks to victories in the air and at sea, land battles with the defeat of Britain did not take place.
          And so the Germans made a revolution in the land doctrine, but in the sea and air they did not show anything like that.

          You probably already took the exam at school. But, there are many of those who know history not from comics and can distinguish the appearance of a war from a war on the eastern front.
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 27 May 2021 15: 21
            -11%
            Burning ships, sinking submarines, piles of thousands of aircraft are quite a war.
            1. neri73-r
              neri73-r 27 May 2021 15: 26
              +5
              And you will compare these piles on the western front and on the eastern, maybe you will come to some conclusion. Someone throws shit at each other, and someone at knives, but both of them fight! Something like this.
            2. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 27 May 2021 15: 56
              -10%
              And in China there were even more corpses where they fought in full, and not in this eastern one. wassat
              I do not understand the dimension of wars through corpses
            3. neri73-r
              neri73-r 27 May 2021 16: 06
              +8
              Quote: BlackMokona
              And in China there were even more corpses where they fought in full, and not in this eastern one. wassat
              I do not understand the dimension of wars through corpses

              But in China the fate of mankind was not decided, alas, yours are not dancing.
            4. Igor Aviator
              Igor Aviator 27 May 2021 22: 24
              +2
              Quote: BlackMokona
              And in China there were even more corpses where they fought in full, and not in this eastern one.

              Yes, really? Do not shine with your illiteracy, even if they were ashamed, or something ... The effectiveness of the Armed Forces in a war should be compared by the number of "ground" enemy troops, if that! Can your vaunted British Army, and even more so the Chinese, compare in this with the Red Army? Especially if, at the same time, take into account and compare the opposing forces of Germany! How many German troops were there in the confrontation with England? As far as we know, Germany stopped the air confrontation with England not because the English aces were super-duper, but only because aviation was, first of all, needed on the EAST front, and not for a futile struggle with Great Britain, intelligible goals and whose tasks, BEFORE THE VICTORY over Soviet Russia, the 3rd Reich did not have at all! And yes! Something suddenly (.?.) Reminded me of the literal plea of ​​Roosevelt and Churchill to start operations (unprepared) in Poland and Prussia as soon as possible, since the Volkssturm and non-combatants, unsuitable for military conscription, piled on the most "do not indulge" the Valiant United Forces under the Ardennes. It is I who draw the attention of your mind (if it still exists (?) On the scale of the confrontation (compare at least with Stalingrad, Kursk Bulge, Operation Bagration. Uranus, Korsun-Shevchenkovskaya, Yassko-Kishinevskaya, liberation of Leningrad, Vistula-Oder , East Prussian and Berlin operations! Does your vaunted British, British-American, and Chinese armed forces have any "in standings" (sounds a little blasphemous ..) at least in the least in terms of tension, but even more overshadowed by the glory of victory? And in the end, where were your vaunted British-Americans when the Russians took Berlin? Slowly, quietly crawling eastward, fortunately, the Germans actually did not resist, preferring to surrender to the Franco-Saxons rather than fight the Russians ... that, Black Mocona, "Kolya's brother from Urengoy", do not dust ...
    2. Igor Aviator
      Igor Aviator 27 May 2021 22: 58
      +1
      Quote: BlackMokona
      Well, thanks to victories in the air and at sea, land battles with the defeat of Britain did not take place.

      Don't juggle! the third Reich, the British Isles, BEFORE the MOMENT of victory over the Soviet Union, were not needed at all, from the word GENERAL! moreover, the Germans deliberately allowed the British Expeditionary Force to (almost) RUN yes from Belgium 9 it is - to the question of IMPORTANCE and the ability to fight. World History says: the Anglo-Saxons are able to successfully conduct hostilities exclusively with a weaker enemy, especially if economic interests contribute to this (with the aim of robbing)! The Crimean War, hostilities against the civilian population of Arkhangelsk, the actions of the American expeditionary force in the Russian Far East during the Civil War, where actions against the peaceful population were "very successful" are very characteristic. But, as soon as the Red Army began to approach, they preferred, like the Gopniks, to quickly leave, so as not to grab the Lyuli! and the war of the Americans in the Pacific Ocean does not paint - crushing Japan, whose military and economic potential was several times inferior to the American one - this is from the category of a fantastic battle of a courtyard hooligan with Michael Tyson or Mohammed Ali. and then - they themselves did not cope, they asked for help from the Soviet Union, which ground the millionth Kwantung Army!
  2. zenion
    zenion 27 May 2021 18: 49
    +5
    The most interesting thing in the battle with Britain is that the Germans never sent sabotage squads and paratroopers to Britain. It was as if Germany was at war with Great Britain. And Great Britain was waiting for the capture of Stalingrad in order to bomb the oil-bearing places of the Caucasus. Churchill was annoyed when the Red Army defeated the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad. After all, then it was possible to seize the places planned during the civil war in Russia. Here the Japanese and the Turks would have moved. We would have captured the south of Central Asia. But the country hoped for Stalin and he did not disappoint. Stalin created great executors of the USSR's plans, who conveyed to the people what needs to be done at one time or another.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 27 May 2021 16: 21
    +2
    Their vpisyvalki can only be shoved in their ass. Their goal was that the European countries would hold out at least a little and fight for Britain. The war can only be global, and what the British did otherwise than anonism cannot be called.
    Only pilots really fought, if England were not an island, they would have surrendered faster than France.
    You can complete any country with lightning speed. The French practically lost within a week, if not faster and, first of all, in the brain, but then they just gave up. The USSR rested in the same conditions and thought only about victory.
    1. Igor Aviator
      Igor Aviator 27 May 2021 22: 37
      +2
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      The French practically lost within a week,

      It is enough not to forget about how long the Brest Fortress and the Kiev fortified area, Smolensk and Rzhev, Moscow, Murmansk, Minsk, Stalingrad, Leningrad, in the end, held out! You can list for a long time. There were almost more hero cities in the Soviet Union than heroic regiments in the ranks of the US and British armies!
      1. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 28 May 2021 09: 13
        +2
        That's right, this is not all the cities have made Heroes, the most offensive for Voronezh and Tver, so they are worthy to the fullest.
  • NF68
    NF68 27 May 2021 16: 32
    0
    Quote: Stas157
    Quote: BlackMokona
    But what about Britain, which is already two years old by this time fought with Hitler and did not give up?

    Hitler fought Britain, but not Britain. The war for Britain was of a remote geographical character, mainly sea. Maybe this is the whole point, have you ever wondered?


    The British did not let him into Britain in 1940. After that, it became clear to the Germans that it was necessary to proceed to a long siege of the British metropolis. If not for the increasingly generous assistance from the United States, then by the second half of 1941 the British would have become very sick.
  • NF68
    NF68 29 May 2021 17: 13
    +1
    Quote: Stas157
    Quote: BlackMokona
    But what about Britain, which is already two years old by this time fought with Hitler and did not give up?

    Hitler fought Britain, but not Britain. The war for Britain was of a remote geographical character, mainly sea. Maybe this is the whole point, have you ever wondered?


    Before landing in Britain, Hitler had to achieve supremacy at sea and in the air. The German fleet was too weak to fight on equal terms with the British fleet and therefore the main burden fell on the German aviation. But even here the Germans did not have the opportunity to achieve clear superiority, since the English aviation industry was not inferior to the German, and in the number of aircraft engines produced, the British were ahead of the Germans already from the beginning of WWII, and only in 1943 did the Germans manage to approach the British in this indicator, but it was already too late. By this time, the Americans were already producing 4,5 times more aircraft engines than the Germans.

    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 29 May 2021 22: 26
      +1
      Here the funnier fact is that the peaceful USA in the peaceful 41st year produces almost as many engines as Britain and the Reich combined.
      1. NF68
        NF68 30 May 2021 16: 21
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Here the funnier fact is that the peaceful USA in the peaceful 41st year produces almost as many engines as Britain and the Reich combined.


        The potential of the US industry was higher than that of the British and Germans combined. Therefore, the Americans were able to accelerate so quickly.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 30 May 2021 19: 27
          +1
          Quote: NF68
          The potential of the US industry was higher than that of the British and Germans combined. Therefore, the Americans were able to accelerate so quickly.

          ))
          And they started much earlier than December 41st. Production of tanks 1941 USSR - 4219 medium heavy + 1366 light, USA - 1430 medium (produced since August) 2591 light. That is 3: 2.
          1. NF68
            NF68 31 May 2021 16: 35
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Quote: NF68
            The potential of the US industry was higher than that of the British and Germans combined. Therefore, the Americans were able to accelerate so quickly.

            ))
            And they started much earlier than December 41st. Production of tanks 1941 USSR - 4219 medium heavy + 1366 light, USA - 1430 medium (produced since August) 2591 light. That is 3: 2.


            We also prepared. It was a sin not to use such an opportunity to destroy the BI with someone else's hands.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 1 June 2021 07: 43
              0
              Quote: NF68
              the ability to destroy BI with someone else's hands

              Well, why is it necessary to be "strangers")))
              Who the Americans fought with at that time is a damn difficult question.
            2. NF68
              NF68 1 June 2021 16: 38
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Well, why is it necessary to be "strangers")))


              Since September 1, 1939, in Europe and in the Atlantic, Americans have been "at war" by the hands of the Germans. And yet the Americans have not yet quarreled with the British. In the Pacific Ocean, the Japanese fought for the Americans - here it is true, and the Americans themselves, starting from December 7, 1941, began to fly in the teeth on a regular basis, but these were already production costs.
  • Alexander Kopychev
    Alexander Kopychev 27 May 2021 09: 08
    +11
    Britain was saved from the death of the USSR! I am not belittling their heroic defense in the sky, but what would become of them, not a strong Union ???
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 27 May 2021 10: 21
      -10%
      The US would turn continental Europe into radioactive ash. And Britain would have withstood, albeit with much greater destruction
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 27 May 2021 12: 43
        +6
        No need about the ashes, they would have agreed with Hitler, if the USSR had collapsed.
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 27 May 2021 12: 44
          -5
          Why negotiate with him for the United States? When can you be rolled into ashes and have complete domination over the world?
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 27 May 2021 12: 45
            +3
            Why is the world rolled into ashes?
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 27 May 2021 12: 50
              -5
              What kind of world? Europe is still far from the world in the Urals. Asia, Africa, two Americas and so on are all their own.
              And nature will recover, radiation will dissipate over time.
              1. Daniil Konovalenko
                Daniil Konovalenko 27 May 2021 13: 03
                +3
                And nature will recover, radiation will dissipate over time.
                Ahhh, well, yes, well, yes. laughing Calm down, please don't be so nervous. laughing
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 12: 57
            +2
            Quote: BlackMokona
            When can you be rolled into ashes and have complete domination over the world?

            Why do they need complete domination over the world? Why did they start raking it away from the Philippines, Cuba, even Puerto Rico? About the Mexican President Cardenas, who, among other things, took away the people's oil from the damned gringos, have you ever heard? This is the one whose comrade. Trotsky was a guest at one time.
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 27 May 2021 12: 59
              -1
              Then why would they need a cold war with the SSSR, or do you think it was a defense of the USSR's aggression?
              Well, how do they rake off especially from Puerto Rico, which will eventually become part of the United States as 51 states. And now it is considered the territory of the United States. wassat
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 13: 43
                +1
                Quote: BlackMokona
                Then why would they need a cold war with the SSSR, or do you think it was a defense of the USSR's aggression?

                Why should they admire the USSR? By the way, for that matter, how did the USSR survive the 40s at all, if the Americans did not like it so much?
                Quote: BlackMokona
                now the territory of the United States is considered

                The fact of the matter is that Puerto Rico is sitting on a welfare and has not surrendered to anyone. They were not kicked out when there was an opportunity, but now it is considered impolite. Likewise Greenland or Guiana.
              2. Blackmokona
                Blackmokona 27 May 2021 14: 26
                +1
                For example, the United States disliked Germany much more. And Germany, not the USSR, declared war on the United States, which is also terribly important wassat
              3. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 14: 40
                +2
                Quote: BlackMokona
                Germany was much more disliked by the United States

                1. Yes? For what?
                2. And what, both at once not to love health was not enough?
              4. Igor Aviator
                Igor Aviator 27 May 2021 23: 23
                -1
                Quote: BlackMokona
                For example, the United States disliked Germany much more.

                They "disliked" so much that they financed Hitler, supplied the 3rd Reich with motors, spare parts and components, put up for auction on the American stock exchange the shares of various German companies, which were controlled directly by the leaders of the Nazi party? And before the burning of the Reichstag, did not hesitate to replenish the party treasury of the NSDAP?
              5. Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg)
                Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg) 30 May 2021 00: 46
                -1
                > supplied the 3rd Reich with motors, spare parts and components

                MMK Reich was still built. Not the third truth, the neighboring one.
  • ANB
    ANB 27 May 2021 22: 05
    0
    ... US would turn continental Europe into radioactive ash

    Or Germany has turned both England and the United States to ashes. After all, they went almost on a par.
  • Igor Aviator
    Igor Aviator 27 May 2021 23: 12
    0
    Quote: BlackMokona
    The US would turn continental Europe into radioactive ash.

    What, interestingly, are your wishes? Go to school. dropout!
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 12: 52
    -6
    Quote: Alexander Kopychev
    what would become of them, not a vystoy Union ???

    Let me remind you that they fought Hitler alone, when Molotov went to Berlin to share the British inheritance like grandma's apartment. And they made it clear that the grandmother was still quite cheerful.
    1. Victor Tsenin
      Victor Tsenin 27 May 2021 13: 20
      0
      He spied on Britain and Co. after Munich.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 13: 37
        -4
        Quote: Victor Tsenin
        Britain and Co. spied on after Munich.

        What did Britain and Co. get in Munich?
        Quote: Victor Tsenin
        The transfer of the main forces to the east put an end to the landing.

        To the East? Leo was scheduled for 40th year. The decision to start planning for Barbarossa was made a few months after the cancellation of the lion.
        Quote: Victor Tsenin
        the island would not have survived due to the qualitative / quantitative / moral / tactical and strategic backwardness of Britain and the Nazis.

        The first time I hear about the lag behind the Nazis. The English army was the best in the world in terms of quality. There was a crisis in the spring and summer of 40, similar to the Soviet crisis in 41, but the situation was corrected in a few months.
        1. Victor Tsenin
          Victor Tsenin 27 May 2021 13: 46
          +4
          > What did Britain and Co. get in Munich?
          The pacification of their rear and, most importantly, time.

          > Leo was scheduled for 40th year. The decision to start planning for Barbarossa was made a few months after the cancellation of the lion.
          January 9, 1941 was canceled, the inclinations towards the USSR are quite understandably set forth in My Struggle, I have not read it, I recommend it.

          > The English army was the best in the world in terms of quality. There was a crisis in the spring and summer of 40, similar to the Soviet crisis in 41, but the situation was corrected in a few months.
          There are completely opposite opinions, there is a wide field for controversy. But the situation was not corrected, because the whole so-called. The Battle of Britain (in the air) required a critical overextension, in the face of an acute shortage of resources and lagging industrial productivity. Unlike Germany. In 1941, Hitler had already chosen the path to the east, hence the flights of Hess and the curtailment of terrorist attacks.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 14: 38
            -4
            Quote: Victor Tsenin
            Pacification of their rear

            What other rear areas? And where was the front?
            Quote: Victor Tsenin
            January 9, 1941 was canceled

            In 41 there was nothing to catch with the lion. This was finally brought to Hitler, with considerable difficulty.
            Quote: Victor Tsenin
            inclinations towards the USSR are quite easily stated in My struggle, I have not read it, I recommend it.

            The Fuhrer treated the Russians very touchingly, just hug and cry. I will not quote extremizm, sorry.
            Quote: Victor Tsenin
            demanded a critical overvoltage, in the face of an acute shortage of resources and lagging industry productivity. Unlike Germany.

            Let me remind you that the islanders won the BzB.
            Quote: Victor Tsenin
            In 1941 Hitler had already chosen the path to the east,

            Because it didn't work out with England.
            1. Victor Tsenin
              Victor Tsenin 27 May 2021 14: 47
              +6
              > What other rear services?
              The task of his own.

              > In 41 there was nothing to catch with the lion.
              There were enough resources and troops, zibel, local air supremacy and airborne assault forces and the total superiority of military thought, would have solved the issue.

              > I will not quote extremizm, sorry.
              This is of course, however, it is worth reading, the thoughts of the enemy must always be known.

              > Let me remind you that the islanders won the BzB.
              Exclusively because Germany did not finish what it had begun, turning down the shop in favor of turning to the East.

              > Because England did not work out.
              Because it is not a cause, but an effect.

              Well, we have already heard each other, I propose to finish)
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 15: 02
              -7
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              The task of his own.

              Did something threaten him?
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              There were enough resources and troops, zibel, local air supremacy and airborne assault forces and the total superiority of military thought, would have solved the issue.

              Another one knows how to fight better than Hitler with Halder.
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              however, it is worth reading, the thoughts of the enemy must always be known.

              On the next tab. There is nothing about any claims to the USSR, with the exception of the usual anti-Semitic nonsense for the author. In addition to wishes to move, not too clearly formulated. Well, the USSR also asked to move, for example, Finland, nothing special for those years.
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              Exclusively because Germany did not finish what it started,

              Exclusively because Germany BzB lost.
            3. Victor Tsenin
              Victor Tsenin 27 May 2021 15: 13
              +3
              > Something threatened him?
              Yes. Something German.

              > Another one knows how to fight better than Hitler with Halder.
              Hitler is not a military leader, and I am not F. Halder, if that's what you mean. But Halder's diaries seemed to me very interesting and instructive.

              > In addition to wishes to move, not too clearly formulated.
              Drag nach Osten is very clearly expressed there, for the conquest of the libensraum, it is a pity that this has passed your gaze.

              > Well, and the USSR asked to move, for example, Finland, nothing special for those years.
              The USSR asked to exchange territory, offering significantly, many times more land, study better.

              > Exclusively because Germany BzB lost.
              The operation was curtailed, not lost, the losses are commensurate, but the potential of the German Luftwaffe is much higher and the losses are not critical, I wrote already.
            4. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 15: 39
              -2
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              Yes. Something German

              Something German threatened Hitler more, according to rumors. There is information that if there was a threat of war in 38, the military would have removed it.
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              there it is very clearly expressed, for the conquest of the libensraum,

              There is the whole 14th chapter, which is about the Liebernsraum, an indistinct hum.
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              asked to exchange territory, offering significantly, many times more land, study better.

              What to do, Hitler had nothing to change, such a misfortune.
              Quote: Victor Tsenin
              The operation was curtailed, not lost, the losses are commensurate, but the potential of the German Luftwaffe is much higher and the losses are not critical, I wrote already.

              You are fighting better than Hitler, and now you are better than Goering, you were greatly lacked in 40.
            5. Victor Tsenin
              Victor Tsenin 27 May 2021 17: 09
              +4
              > Then you are better at war than Hitler, and now better than Goering, you were greatly lacking in the 40th.
              But no, I am a staunch opponent of these persons, and in 40 I might have been, nobody canceled reincarnation.

              And something you did not comment on the fact that M. Lev was developed simultaneously with Barbarossa, contrary to your statements. I see, I don’t see there? Smells like goebbelsat.
          2. Revival
            Revival 28 May 2021 20: 34
            0
            "The USSR asked to exchange territory, offering significantly, many times more land, study better."

            Separated from your argument, tell me how you would assess someone's offer now, "move / exchange"?
            With understanding and agreement?
  • chenia
    chenia 27 May 2021 15: 59
    +4
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    share the inheritance like grandma's apartment.

    In such matters, the grandmother herself was among the first.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    that the grandmother is still quite cheerful.

    Obviously, it's cool to tease a fighting dog sitting in a tree (English Channel). And the grandmother sat there, even when the dog was distracted by others (and even the ridge was broken).
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 20: 04
      0
      Quote: chenia
      In such matters, the grandmother herself was among the first

      She led a thieves life.
      Quote: chenia
      then when this dog was distracted by others

      Others? Let me remind you, if you suddenly do not know, that in June 41 there was a treacherous attack. Others did not succumb to provocations. With all my might.
      1. chenia
        chenia 27 May 2021 20: 26
        +2
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        She led a thieves life.


        Definitely. The main reason for its existence. With this, the Fuhrer delighted, he tried to copy as best he could.

        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Others did not succumb to provocations. With all my might.


        In! Comrade Stalin's wise policy allowed the grandmother to become an ally (and where the heck could she go?) ..
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 21: 34
          0
          Quote: chenia
          let the grandmother become an ally (and where the fuck was she to go?).

          Anywhere. Here Mr. Samsonov in every speech claims that she had to immediately put up with the Reich. These are the eternal enemies of Russia.
          1. chenia
            chenia 28 May 2021 09: 24
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            it was necessary to immediately reconcile with the Reich.


            So she put up and wanted.
            But to share - no.
            And she threw herself into Stalin's arms (before that, promising reciprocity to Hitler if he dealt with the second applicant). Here I would like to hear Hess's solo at the London Opera (but his voice in Spandau disappeared, along with life).
            In general, the grandmother circled everyone, although later (after the war) she remained on the beans. The third challenger and sacked all of her inheritance.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • NF68
    NF68 27 May 2021 16: 33
    +2
    Quote: Alexander Kopychev
    Britain was saved from the death of the USSR! I am not belittling their heroic defense in the sky, but what would become of them, not a strong Union ???


    The United States began helping the British long before June 22, 1941.
  • NF68
    NF68 28 May 2021 16: 22
    +1
    Quote: Alexander Kopychev
    Britain was saved from the death of the USSR! I am not belittling their heroic defense in the sky, but what would become of them, not a strong Union ???


    And what would have happened to them if it had not been for the United States? How long would they sit on their island with their teeth on the shelves?
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 29 May 2021 22: 38
      +2
      Quote: NF68
      And what would have happened to them if it had not been for the United States? How long would they sit on their island with their teeth on the shelves?

      If it were not for the United States, we would normally have come to terms with the Reich. The topic of abandoning colonies was already more or less working, there was nothing special to share with Hitler.
      1. NF68
        NF68 30 May 2021 17: 39
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Quote: NF68
        And what would have happened to them if it had not been for the United States? How long would they sit on their island with their teeth on the shelves?

        If it were not for the United States, we would normally have come to terms with the Reich. The topic of abandoning colonies was already more or less working, there was nothing special to share with Hitler.


        Quite possible. In this case, the British simply could not expect anything else. And Hitler would gladly do it.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 30 May 2021 19: 28
          +1
          Yes, and offered more than once.
  • ankir13
    ankir13 28 May 2021 17: 28
    0
    Hitler cleverly (for him) would first have to attack not the USSR, but Britain and take it, as if he would, and stop there, for 10 years! Then for him a completely different compote would have formed ... But, alas, he did not dare to tear the nursing uterus, did not look, did not think that carpet bombing would fly in the back ... But the Russians would not be too tempting ...
    1. NF68
      NF68 29 May 2021 17: 03
      +1
      Quote: ankir13
      Hitler cleverly (for him) would first have to attack not the USSR, but Britain and take it, as if he would, and stop there, for 10 years! Then for him a completely different compote would have formed ... But, alas, he did not dare to tear the nursing uterus, did not look, did not think that carpet bombing would fly in the back ... But the Russians would not be too tempting ...


      In order to intelligently "attack" Britain, Hitler first needed to achieve dominance at sea and in the air. Hitler could do this only with the help of aviation, since the German fleet was too small and weak to fight the British fleet. But the German aviation in 1940 was unable to cope even with the British aviation alone, as a result of which the landing in Britain remained on paper. Therefore, Hitler was forced to go over to the naval blockade of the British Metropolis.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 29 May 2021 22: 45
        +1
        Quote: NF68
        was forced to go to the naval blockade of the British Metropolis.

        Little is known that the relative successes of the naval blockade - "The First Happy Times" - ended already in 40, as soon as the British established and worked out the convoy system.
        1. NF68
          NF68 30 May 2021 16: 19
          +1
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Quote: NF68
          was forced to go to the naval blockade of the British Metropolis.

          Little is known that the relative successes of the naval blockade - "The First Happy Times" - ended already in 40, as soon as the British established and worked out the convoy system.


          The greatest losses of tonnage for the British and Americans were in the second half of 1942 and even in March 1943. Only the section off Gibraltar and the Irish Sea were well protected. Only in April 1943, the Allies were able to establish a truly effective anti-aircraft defense.
          1. Liam
            Liam 30 May 2021 16: 27
            +2
            This is in absolute terms ... and in relative terms? in% of the total tonnage of cargo delivered to the WB?
            1. NF68
              NF68 30 May 2021 16: 34
              +1
              Quote: Liam
              This is in absolute terms ... and in relative terms? in% of the total tonnage of cargo delivered to the WB?


              I do not have these data, but in the Book of Doenitz I came across data on deliveries to the British metropolis in 1942 - a total of about 34 million tons of all cargo versus about 50 million tons in 1939. In the second half of 1942, the British had only 300 thousand tons of fuel oil in NZ for ships. At the same time, only the ships guarding the convoys consumed about 130 thousand tons of fuel oil per month. Therefore, battleships and cruisers were rarely used by the British at this time.
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 30 May 2021 19: 31
              +1
              Quote: NF68
              The greatest losses of tonnage for the British and Americans

              That's exactly what the British and Americans have. The 42 frag records are caused by the activities of Americans who refused to recognize the PLO idea for religious reasons. As soon as, after a little over a year of war, the position of the Americans changed - the successes of the Germans ended. And radically.
              Quote: NF68
              In the second half of 1942, the British had only 300 thousand tons of fuel oil for ships in the NZ.

              This is due to the fact that the Americans switched logistics to the Mediterranean.
            3. NF68
              NF68 31 May 2021 16: 40
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              As soon as, after a little over a year of war, the position of the Americans changed - the successes of the Germans ended. And radically.


              It took the Americans a long time to create a reliable anti-submarine system in most of the Atlantic. This is still not a limited area of ​​the Atlantic near Gibraltar, where the British, already in 1942, created a very powerful PLO where the Germans tried not to meddle.

              This is due to the fact that the Americans switched logistics to the Mediterranean.


              Not only with this. The Germans first of all tried to sink exactly the tankers going to the British metropolis.
            4. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 1 June 2021 07: 54
              +1
              Quote: NF68
              It took the Americans a lot of time to create a reliable anti-aircraft missile system

              Yeah. Because they despised the very idea of ​​PLO. This is doubly funny, because in WWI, Roosevelt, while working in the Naval Department, already faced submarine warfare.
              The Americans guessed to hijack the PLO frigates from the British only in the spring of 43. After that, the AV escorts arrived in time, so things quickly went smoothly.
              The idea was that the peak in lost tonnage in 42nd was due to the entry of the Americans into the war, who had been posing as a floating shooting range for the entire 42nd year.
              Quote: NF68
              The Germans primarily tried to sink tankers.

              Everyone tried to sink the tankers. But the bottom line is that the logistics capabilities of even the Americans were finite, and at the end of 42 there was a lot to do. There's also Guadalcanal, don't forget. Agree, Britain at that time was quite far from defeat.
            5. NF68
              NF68 1 June 2021 16: 34
              +1
              [quote] Yeah. Because they despised the very idea of ​​PLO. This is doubly funny, because in WWI, Roosevelt, while working in the Naval Department, already faced submarine warfare.
              The Americans guessed to hijack the PLO frigates from the British only in the spring of 43. After that, the AV escorts arrived in time, so things quickly went smoothly.
              The idea was that the peak in lost tonnage in 42nd was due to the entry of the Americans into the war, who had been posing as a floating shooting range for the entire 42nd year. [/ quote

              The French, who brilliantly lost to the Germans in 1940, are indirectly to blame for this. No one, including the Germans, before the WWII knew that the French would surrender so quickly and that the Germans would have French ports with the most modern equipment at their disposal, and even with French workers, from which German submarines could easily and quickly reach allied communications in the Atlantic. ... Before WWII, the British also relied too much on their sonars, but the Germans soon grieved them thoroughly.


              ] [quote = Cherry Nine] Everyone tried to sink the tankers. But the bottom line is that the logistics capabilities of even the Americans were finite, and at the end of 42 there was a lot to do. There's also Guadalcanal, don't forget. Agree, Britain at that time is quite far from defeat. [/ Quote]

              We must not forget about the logistics of the English metropolis itself. The British could not use most of the ports on the eastern and southern coasts, since German aircraft regularly attacked these ports. The ports that were on the western and northern coasts needed to be thoroughly reconstructed in order for them to receive much more cargo.
            6. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 1 June 2021 20: 44
              +1
              Quote: NF68
              Those ports that were on the western and northern coasts needed to be thoroughly reconstructed.

              Yes, but I would not mention it in relation to the end of 42nd year.
              Quote: NF68
              the French are indirectly to blame for this, the brilliant losers to the Germans in 1940

              There is no need to blame a sore head on a healthy one. France lost in the spring of 40, and the first massive American frigate, Ewarts, in the spring of 43. And it was originally ordered by the British.
              Quote: NF68
              "fought" by the hands of the Germans

              I did not expect that you are a supporter of Samsonovism. They did not fight by hand. The Axis has its own game, Roosevelt has his own. And you can't say that anyone there was damn good.
            7. NF68
              NF68 2 June 2021 16: 28
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Yes, but I would not mention it in relation to the end of 42nd year.


              I don’t know about the end of 1942, but in 1941 it still made itself felt.

              There is no need to blame a sore head on a healthy one. France lost in the spring of 40, and the first massive American frigate, Ewarts, in the spring of 43. And it was originally ordered by the British.


              In addition to frigates, the Americans and the British were able to produce other equipment. The capabilities of the US industry were significantly greater than those of the same British and Germans, but they were not unlimited either.

              I did not expect that you are a supporter of Samsonovism. They did not fight by hand. The Axis has its own game, Roosevelt has his own. And you can't say that anyone there was damn good.


              Good. They did not fight directly with someone else's hands, but they wisely used the situation and the mistakes of both their allies and opponents. Each of the countries that took an active part in WWII first of all tried for themselves, as best they could, but the Americans, for a number of reasons, did it better than the same British. Although the British did not lose WWII, they lost their empire during WWII, and the Americans immediately picked up some of the most valuable of the BI and they still make good use of it ..
            8. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 2 June 2021 19: 13
              +1
              Quote: NF68
              The capabilities of the US industry were significantly greater than those of the same British and Germans, but they were not unlimited either.

              There was enough for the Alaska-type cruise missile, but there was no PLO for mass frigates.
              Quote: NF68
              they used the situation wisely

              So-so.
              Quote: NF68
              some of the most valuable of the BIs were immediately picked up by the Americans

              Is that the position of the pound as the main reserve currency. And even then, in the conditions of the gold exchange standard, it was not the same "machine", which is now so fond of talking about.
              And it was time to part with the empire, that was understandable. Compare the FRG without colonies and what France was happy with in the end.
            9. NF68
              NF68 3 June 2021 16: 15
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              There was enough for the Alaska-type cruise missile, but there was no PLO for mass frigates.


              Who didn't make mistakes then?

              So-so.


              So-so?



              All competitors of the United States, including BI, were thrown far back and the United States could do whatever it wanted.

              Is that the position of the pound as the main reserve currency. And even then, in the conditions of the gold exchange standard, it was not the same "machine", which is now so fond of talking about.
              And it was time to part with the empire, that was understandable. Compare the FRG without colonies and what France was happy with in the end.


              BI broke up as an empire, and the United States, on the contrary, acquired a lot at the expense of BI, and if before WWII BI was approximately an equal rival of the United States, then after WWII little remained of the pre-war BI.
            10. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 3 June 2021 19: 24
              +3
              Quote: NF68
              Who didn't make mistakes then?

              Some strange formulation of the question. The Americans could not do them, at least those that the British have already done for them. Establish a convoy system - not a Newton binomial.
              Quote: NF68
              So-so?

              Конечно.
              First, you are replacing the thesis. Losing less than others is not equal to "gain".
              Second, imagine that the conditional Roosevelt is elected in the 28th year and says:
              Brothers and sisters! You probably know that 10 years ago, the Wilson government sent American troops into the European war, as a result of which more than 100 Americans died. No one was able to find out for what purpose this was done. Mr. Wilson seems to have said that these Americans died so that the borders between Hungary and Romania were correctly drawn. The devil knows what kind of Hungary and Romania, but somehow so.

              So, hmm, what am I talking about? Let's do it again! At the cost of only half a million Americans and some absolutely monstrous money that even your grandchildren will pay, we can give Hungary together with Romania (damn it) to the Russian Bolsheviks and for the next 40 years we will not hear anything more about them. Cool !? And we will be able to put an additional 100 thousand of your grandchildren, the same as in WWI, protecting local corrupt kings from the communists in Korea and French Indochina. Yes, about the same communists to whom we gave Hungary and Romania, if they were wrong. Check out the idea! BUT? BUT? BUT?
            11. NF68
              NF68 4 June 2021 16: 20
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Some strange formulation of the question. The Americans could not do them, at least those that the British have already done for them. Establish a convoy system - not a Newton binomial.


              So the USSR on the eve of the Second World War could not make mistakes. And Adolf Aloizovich, too, could not make mistakes. And the British and the French, too, could not make mistakes on the eve of WWII, but they did. If they had known the purchase, they would have lived in Sochi or somewhere else in the same area.

              Second, imagine that the conditional Roosevelt is elected in the 28th year and says:
              Brothers and sisters! You probably know that 10 years ago, the Wilson government sent American troops into the European war, as a result of which more than 100 Americans died. No one was able to find out for what purpose this was done. Mr. Wilson seems to have said that these Americans died so that the borders between Hungary and Romania were correctly drawn. The devil knows what kind of Hungary and Romania, but somehow so.


              The United States is behaving in a similar way now. Even if their human losses are not 100 thousand. But he climbs wherever he can, knowing perfectly well that people will lose.

              And we will be able to put an additional 100 thousand of your grandchildren, the same as in WWI, protecting the local corrupt kings from the communists in Korea and French Indochina. Yes, about the same communists to whom we gave Hungary and Romania, if they were wrong. Check out the idea! BUT? BUT? BUT?


              If these were not ordinary Americans, but the children of all kinds of Rockefellers, American presidents of the co., Then no one would lose them. They just wouldn't be sent there. And when it comes to ordinary Americans, it would be a different matter ... Long ago they would have invented this coronavirus or something similar to it, and money would also flow into the pockets of those who need it.
            12. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 4 June 2021 17: 47
              +2
              Quote: NF68
              when it comes to ordinary Americans, this would be another matter.

              I know this sounds controversial, but some believe that the president-elect should do the will of his constituents. And the voters did NOT want THIS.
              Quote: NF68
              USA and now behave about the same

              The transition from republic to empire took place under Roosevelt. Much has been rolled back inside the country, but foreign policy has remained imperial ever since.
              Quote: NF68
              So the USSR on the eve of the Second World War could not make mistakes. And Adolf Aloizovich, too, could not make mistakes. And the British and the French, too, could not make mistakes on the eve of WWII, but they did.

              Not an excuse. A number of mistakes - for example, the refusal to defend the Philippines, which became one of the worst mistakes of the war and led to the death of at least 5 million people - are understandable. But the convoy system is a convoy system, there is nothing to justify with. And even more so in 43.
            13. NF68
              NF68 6 June 2021 16: 43
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Not an excuse. A number of mistakes - for example, the refusal to defend the Philippines, which became one of the worst mistakes of the war and led to the death of at least 5 million people - are understandable. But the convoy system is a convoy system, there is nothing to justify with. And even more so in 43.


              Would the Americans have kept the Philippines then? Unlikely. Only they would have lost even more ships and people and, quite possibly, would have finished off Japan not in August 1945, but later and with heavy losses. As far as the convoy system is concerned, a clean guarding of convoys would not allow for a significant improvement in protection. The Americans and the British had to do so that long before contacts with the convoys were established, the German submarines themselves should come under attack from aircraft and Allied ships. Those. the allies had to be able to operate effectively over a very large area in different parts of the Atlantic distant from each other. Without the help of the United States, the British could have done nothing at all. You yourself mentioned that the possibilities of the US industry were also not limitless.

              The Americans had to pay great attention not only to the protection of convoys in the Atlantic. But also the armament of the ground forces and the construction of large warships to confront Japan.
            14. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 6 June 2021 18: 24
              +2
              Quote: NF68
              Would the Americans have kept the Philippines then? Unlikely.

              Why would you?
              The capabilities of the Japanese were very limited. And the army was not going to surrender them so easily - as evidenced by the same B-17.

              But the army was unable to coordinate its actions with the navy. And MacArthur, of course, performed enchantingly, even by his own standards.
              Quote: NF68
              it is quite possible that they would have finished off Japan not in August 1945, but later and with heavy losses.

              The Americans under no circumstances could lose in the Philippines the forces that ensured their victory in 44th. These forces simply did not exist in 41. As for the altistory, the stop of the Japanese near the Philippines, the defense of Indonesia, closed the issue of the Pacific War already in the 42nd. It is generally accepted that Barbarossa was a gamble, but compared to the blitzkrieg of the Japanese, it was a plan as accurate as a Swiss watch.
              Quote: NF68
              o clean guarding of convoys would not allow for significant improvement in protection.

              How interesting. The British had given it quite a year earlier.
              Quote: NF68
              Without the help of the United States, the British could have done nothing at all.

              For some reason, they did it. Google "Happy Times".
              Quote: NF68
              You yourself mentioned that the possibilities of the US industry were also not limitless.

              The Americans had to pay great attention not only to the protection of convoys in the Atlantic.

              Again. The British industry - frankly speaking, not like the American one - in 39-41 laid three hundred Flower-class corvettes and at the end of 41 switched to an improved project of the River-class frigate - another hundred and fifty. The Americans also began to order ships of this type in batches of 100, and then 200, 300 hulls. But only in the spring of 43.
            15. NF68
              NF68 7 June 2021 17: 06
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Why would you?
              The capabilities of the Japanese were very limited. And the army was not going to surrender them so easily - as evidenced by the same B-17.


              The Japanese learned how to fight on land in China and in clashes with the USSR in 1938 and 1939. The Americans did not have this experience either. After December 7, 1941, the British did not act very successfully near Singapore either. And this is too mildly said.

              But the army was unable to coordinate its actions with the navy. And MacArthur, of course, performed enchantingly, even by his own standards.


              Apparently the Americans in this matter did not want to lag behind the Japanese, whose army and navy lived worse than a cat and a dog.

              It is generally accepted that Barbarossa was a gamble, but compared to the blitzkrieg of the Japanese, it was a plan as accurate as a Swiss watch.


              At the very beginning of the war, this watch worked as it should be for a Swiss watch, but then imperceptibly among the gears of this watch, either fine sand was still there, or something else, but gradually the clock began to work not as expected of them. As a result, a slap in the face suddenly flew from somewhere in December 1941.

              For some reason, they did it. Google "Happy Times"


              Without ever-increasing aid from the United States, the success of the British would have been much more modest. Both the British and the Germans understood this perfectly. Therefore, the Germans did not disregard the convoys leaving the United States, while the British and Americans tried to protect these convoys by all available means.
            16. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 7 June 2021 17: 49
              0
              Quote: NF68
              After December 7, 1941, the British did not act very successfully near Singapore either. And this is too mildly said.

              Yeah, the islands of bad luck.
              Quote: NF68
              Apparently the Americans in this matter did not want to lag behind the Japanese, whose army and navy lived worse than a cat and a dog.

              Yes, in a peculiar way. Not as hard as samurai (at least the calibers of machine guns are the same), but there was still a third branch of power - aviation. Formally, Arnold was Marshall's deputy, but in fact it was a nightmare, American Harris.
              Quote: NF68
              At the very beginning of the war, this watch worked as it should be for a Swiss watch,

              Not. The whole plan was to the Dnepr-Dvina line. And then the USSR had to collapse itself. But somehow not.
              Quote: NF68
              Without ever-increasing US aid, the success of the British would have been much more modest.

              Yes, but you have lost your thought. The British closed the topic by the beginning of 41. But in the 42nd the Americans poured frags with a slide.
            17. NF68
              NF68 7 June 2021 18: 08
              0
              [Quote] but then there was still a third branch of government - aviation. Formally, Arnold was Marshall's deputy, but in fact it was a nightmare, American Harris [/ quote]

              [quote = Cherry Nine] No. The whole plan was to the Dnepr-Dvina line. And then the USSR had to collapse itself. But for some reason not. [/ Quote]

              Another option was after the capture of Moscow and the northern part of Russia, the northern group was to turn south and during this stage of the campaign, in cooperation with the southern group, to capture Ukraine and eventually reach the Rostov-Gorky-Arkhangelsk line. And the Caucasus, with its oil, Adolf Aloisovich also did not forget. And this meant an exit to Astrakhan.

              [quote] Yes, but you lost your thought. The British closed the topic by the beginning of 41. But in the 42nd
              the Americans poured frags with a slide. [quote]
              They closed it with the help of the Americans, and then they calculated how much more liquid fuel they would have. And this applied not only to the naval fuel oil. But also aviation gasoline. And without the Americans, they didn’t get anything, because the Americans built 4,5-5 times / about 6 million tons / more merchant ships than the British already in 1942. And in 1943, the contribution of the Americans to this business became 2 times more - about which, by the way, the German shipbuilders, having made the appropriate calculations, reported to their naval sailors somewhere in the beginning of 1942. Moreover, such figures were given by 3 different groups of specialists. And, most interestingly, all three groups were not very wrong.
  • Victor Tsenin
    Victor Tsenin 27 May 2021 12: 41
    +2
    Britain would end in a flash, with the implementation of the Sea Lion.
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 27 May 2021 12: 47
      -2
      Only the sea lion could not do it. The failure in the air and the sea put an end to the operation.
      By the way, the British then carried out large-scale staff games based on all the historical data collected in the German archives and their data on plans and resources. The result was the defeat of the German landing.
      They simply do not have time to land the required number of troops.
    2. Daniil Konovalenko
      Daniil Konovalenko 27 May 2021 12: 52
      +1
      Let's not ... And the Sea Lion did not come true ... from a word at all.
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 12: 57
      0
      Quote: Victor Tsenin
      incidentally, while exercising the Sea Lion.

      Something went wrong with the sea lion, it seems.
      1. Victor Tsenin
        Victor Tsenin 27 May 2021 13: 19
        +2
        The transfer of the main forces to the east put an end to the landing. The Reich had great industrial potential and a large number of pilots, so, according to all statistics, the meat grinder was difficult for the Nazis, but critical for Britain.

        Regarding the staff games, this is a view from Britain, but in fact, even with heavy losses, the island would not have survived due to the qualitative / quantitative / moral / tactical and strategic lag of Britain and the Nazis.
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 27 May 2021 14: 54
          +2
          The problem is that the Germans cannot inflict heavy casualties without landing significant forces in Britain. And with small forces, it turns out that the Germans are already beaten
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 27 May 2021 15: 47
            +3
            Such "interesting" thoughts about the need for a "mega-landing". And there is no need for such. Invasion beachheads (if you think so) are always created in several pieces, and eggs are never put in one basket. The classics of the genre are the Soviet bridgeheads on the right bank of the Dnieper, of which there were a dozen (large and small). If desired, the Reich could easily tear apart the Grand Fleet. When landing on 2-3 different bridgeheads, the Wehrmacht could well gain a foothold on the British coast. And one single foothold with 5-6 divisions would already be the beginning of the inevitable end of Britain. The Germans could not refuse coordination - they could very well have done this. It was about the unwillingness of an all-out war with Britain. The order was for total war in the east. The only subjective factor that reduces the ability to capture the island is the psychological unpreparedness of the German generals for heavy losses in 1940. If we took the German generals of the 1943 model, and put him in charge of making decisions in 1940, then England would be left with horns and legs. 5-6 Wehrmacht divisions, simply motorized, not tank divisions, but conditionally Hastings, would be enough to understand who the "clay colossus" is. Another thing is that in 1943 Germany could NOT take a single battalion from the east, but only had to throw all its resources into the furnace of the Eastern Front. Landing in Normandy is just an exception to the rule, a fantastically fabulous opportunity to organize a "mega-landing", the preparation of which no one interferes in any way, and there is no time pressure. Complete impunity in terms of possible mistakes, a win-win option. And then the Anglo-Americans managed to make a lot of foolishness.
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 27 May 2021 16: 08
              +1
              Landing in Normandy is just an exception to the rule, a fantastically fabulous opportunity to organize a "mega-landing", the preparation of which no one interferes in any way, and there is no time pressure. Complete impunity in terms of possible mistakes, a win-win option.

              Moreover, Rommel helped, since he had already joined the group of conspirators, spraying tank divisions that could crush the landed Allied troops. Having hijacked the best SS Panzer Divisions to the western and southern coasts of France. As Guderian wrote -
              Such a dispersal of forces from the very beginning ruled out the possibility of a successful defense.
            2. Konnick
              Konnick 27 May 2021 17: 01
              +2
              yes under conditional Hastings

              Very symbolic. But before the Battle of Hastings in October 1066, in September, Harald the Severe III faced off against Harold II in an attempt to seize the throne of England. And he was inspired by his wife Elizabeth Yaroslavna, but he died, destroying many of Harold's soldiers with his army, so that by the battle of Hastings he had less strength .. Well, William, the future Conqueror, took advantage of this and was possibly inspired by the wife of his ally King of France Henry I , who knighted him, Anna Yaroslavna.
              Everything is very symbolic.
              1. andrew42
                andrew42 28 May 2021 17: 36
                +1
                Yes, I had a hint of Hastings for a reason. It's nice to see understanding and insight.
            3. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 20: 23
              +2
              Quote: andrew42
              The classics of the genre are the Soviet bridgeheads on the right bank of the Dnieper, of which there were a dozen (large and small). If desired, the Reich could easily tear apart the Grand Fleet. When landing on 2-3 different bridgeheads, the Wehrmacht could well gain a foothold on the British coast

              Another. To tear apart, the first or the second fleet of the world, yeah.
              Quote: andrew42
              a foothold with 5-6 divisions - this would already be the beginning of the inevitable end of Britain. You can't refuse coordination to the Germans - they could very well have done this.

              Generally excluded. 5-6 divisions are Okinawa, the Germans of the 40th year and close to nothing like this could not collect. In Norway, 5 divisions landed in 3 approaches.
              Quote: andrew42
              psychological unpreparedness of German generals for heavy losses in 1940.

              You will hear a lot about German generals. What soulful people.
              Quote: andrew42
              5-6 divisions of the Wehrmacht, simply motorized, not tank, but conditionally Hastings

              Couldn't even land.
              Quote: andrew42
              that in 1943 Germany could no longer take a single battalion from the east, but only had to throw all resources into the furnace of the Eastern Front

              In reality, about three times fewer soldiers and five times fewer tanks and self-propelled guns were involved in the Belarusian operation than at the same time they fought in France.
              Quote: andrew42
              And then the Anglo-Americans managed to make a lot of foolishness.

              Oh yes, there is a lot of room for criticism. But hardly from the Soviet side.
              1. andrew42
                andrew42 28 May 2021 17: 38
                -1
                I can see the analysis of quotes in a thesis. Critical arguments are absent. We remain each with his own opinion.
              2. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 29 May 2021 22: 52
                +2
                What other critical arguments? The Sea Lion was considered by the Reich and deemed impossible. You are chasing a topic that has been chewed a hundred times by altistorians since then, and, unlike altistorians, the knowledge of materiel is zero.
                http://alternathistory.com/tag/morskoj-lev/
  • chenia
    chenia 27 May 2021 15: 35
    +4
    Quote: BlackMokona
    But what about Britain, which had been at war with Hitler for two years by this time and did not surrender?

    Are you talking about Dunkert, Dieppe, Crete? And probably about North Africa, where four German divisions with Italians (with shitty supplies) drove four times a large group of British across the desert for two years.

    The English Channel fought against the Germans and did not surrender. If it weren't for him, everything was even sadder than with the French.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 20: 25
      +1
      Quote: chenia
      for two years they drove a four-fold group of British people across the desert.

      And how, have you achieved a lot?
      Quote: chenia
      The English Channel fought against the Germans and did not surrender. Don't be him

      Without the strait, the army / navy balance of Great Britain would be very different.
      1. chenia
        chenia 27 May 2021 20: 47
        +3
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        And how, have you achieved a lot?


        The main ground forces of the Britts wandered in the desert for 3 years (the Germans were the "guides" for 2,5 years).
        Minimum costs, maximum results.

        Quote: Cherry Nine

        Without the strait, the army / navy balance of Great Britain would be very different.

        What kind? Time was a car and a wheelbarrow, Britain is not Honduras (the states were able to create an army from scratch).
        But the grandmother didn’t do it.
        In Africa, it was not Rommel's genius, but the mediocrity of the British. The Yankees realized this immediately and shook off the Brit's claims to lead the allied forces. Patton even promised to stuff Monty's face in the face if he tried to address him in a bossy style.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 21: 41
          -1
          Quote: chenia
          The main ground forces of the Britts wandered in the desert for 3 years (the Germans were the "guides" for 2,5 years).

          And who lost from this?
          Quote: chenia
          What kind? There was a train and a wheelbarrow

          Well, while you are digging the English Channel, there is really a lot of time, you would have figured it out.
          Quote: chenia
          The Yankees realized this immediately and shook off the Brit's claims to lead the allied forces

          According to the agreements, the commander-in-chief was appointed by the side that provides most of the forces. But during the Tunisian operation, the commander-in-chief was an American, although most of the forces were British. The reason is the difficult relationship between the British and the French.
          Quote: chenia
          Patton even promised to stuff Monty's face in the face if he tried to address him in a bossy style.

          Quite reasonably, Monty was an unpleasant person, he said a lot of unnecessary things, including to the press, and Patton was never the boss.
          1. chenia
            chenia 28 May 2021 09: 12
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            And who lost from this?

            Oh, yes! From a black sheep, even a tuft of wool.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Well, while you are digging the English Channel, there is really a lot of time, you would have figured it out.

            The Yankees, too, created an army from scratch, and blinded a more or less combat-ready, and the Britons were not at all until the end of the war, and played a wretched role (for which the grateful people threw Churchill in 1945.).
            The Germans would never have been able to cross the English Channel, definitely. But here's to force the Brit to raise their paws, in perspective could (guided FAU-2, snorkel submarines, jet aircraft) and blockade.
  • dmmyak40
    dmmyak40 27 May 2021 18: 20
    +1
    Well, another 2-3 weeks of intense air battles and the Brita would be left without fighter aircraft. And it would be very interesting ...
  • ankir13
    ankir13 28 May 2021 17: 18
    0
    Hitler kicked with Britain, since Britain kicked with him, but did not strive to capture and destroy it, since he received a lot of funds from this "mother" in time for development, he did not fully believe that Britain was the enemy, otherwise he would have attacked through the La Manche first by the Brit ... But he hoped for British support against the USSR. And the Brits were waiting for someone to choke on blood, and who would win, in order to rein in the two bloodless ones, and build their new colonies on them .. Typically Zhentelme position, ...
  • Proxima
    Proxima 27 May 2021 12: 52
    +3
    This is the mentality of our people, the Russian people are ready to endure any hardships, but only on one condition, when these hardships are experienced by EVERYONE... Everyone knew perfectly well that the sons of the mighty of this world did not shirk the army (as now the golden youth lives in London), but actually fought, were captured (Yakov Dzhugashvili), died in battle (the son of Mikoyan and Khrushchev, for example). And about the asceticism of the leader of the peoples in general there were legends. This is what the unity and strength of the Russian (Soviet) people consisted of.
  • sidoroff
    sidoroff 27 May 2021 15: 29
    -2
    exactly "ah, what was the power ..". Nazi Germany was also very socialist.
  • not main
    not main 27 May 2021 22: 38
    +2
    Quote: Stas157
    Until Hitler attacked Soviet Russia.

    Excuse me, but it was the USSR! Union of Soviet Socialist Republics! The same "annoying" error is in the article!
  • Revolver
    Revolver 27 May 2021 07: 15
    +3
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    The USSR was much ahead of its time, looked like an alien from a beautiful far away.
    "The beautiful is far away, do not be cruel to me" ...

    If “beautiful far away” is empty store shelves, then it is far from beautiful. I still remember those times when everything was in shops in Leningrad, and my grandfather bought 150 grams of "doctoral" and 150 grams of "Russian" and asked to cut them into thinner slices. It was only later that I realized that he was buying that way, because I was sure that tomorrow it would be possible to buy all this fresh. And when I arrived in Gomel in the summer (after all, the regional center!), I wondered how few of them were in stores, there was no sausage at all, and only Lithuanian cheese "rambinas" (by the way, not bad at all) and dad immediately bought a whole head, and the next it was not. And we and dad's relatives, to whom we came on vacation, ate this head until the end of the vacation, and left a little more. We ate breakfast with a sandwich with smoked sausage, which we brought with us, dined on a salad of the freshest local tomatoes, the likes of which cannot be bought in Leningrad, and sandwiches with the aforementioned cheese, and dined in canteens, because there was no meat in the stores, they gave my uncle at the factory ( that is, count on cards), but they did not count on visitors. And by the end of perestroika, Leningrad shops also acquired the appearance of those that were in Gomel during the early Brezhnev era. What kind of "cut 150" when "do not give more kilos in your hands." And is this "beautiful far away"?
    The death of the Soviet Union, which defeated Hitlerite Germany, and which could have become "beautiful far away," did not come in 1991, but on June 26, 1953, when Khrushch and Zhukov staged a military coup and killed L.P. Beria. What happened, although it was called by the same name, and was within the same boundaries, became, for lack of a better term, a partocracy, and “beautiful far away” could not be, and could not. It slowly degraded, and I am a witness to it.
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 27 May 2021 07: 50
      +10
      in the early 20s, Russia was a typical finished country. There are no friends and allies, the world around us is completely hostile. Economy and transport destroyed during the world and most brutal Civil War... ... ... at any moment Soviet Russia could again collapse into chaos. And without any chance of salvation.

      Nonsense compared to the 90s! After the Civil War (and WW2), the Soviets immediately recovered, but after the 90s we still cannot come to our senses. And how much more time will pass is completely unknown. Therefore, the 90s are the most terrible evil, from which only Putin could save dear. He still raises the country from his knees in the sweat of his brow !! This is the only reason I reset to zero.
      1. Machito
        Machito 27 May 2021 09: 30
        +4
        Quote: Stas157
        in the early 20s, Russia was a typical finished country. There are no friends and allies, the world around us is completely hostile. Economy and transport destroyed during the world and most brutal Civil War... ... ... at any moment Soviet Russia could again collapse into chaos. And without any chance of salvation.

        Nonsense compared to the 90s! After the Civil War (and WW2), the Soviets immediately recovered, but after the 90s we still cannot come to our senses. And how much more time will pass is completely unknown. Therefore, the 90s are the most terrible evil, from which only Putin could save dear. He still raises the country from his knees in the sweat of his brow !! This is the only reason I reset to zero.

        The Rotenbergs and other Deripaska, the curls, diligently help him in the sweat of his brow to row the galleries to lift the country from its knees after the invasion of the Polovtsy and Pechenegs.
      2. Artyom Karagodin
        Artyom Karagodin 27 May 2021 10: 02
        0
        In my opinion, he did not reset to zero in order to return to power. It's just that at the top between the local groups (if not to say - organized crime groups), a bickering has already begun over who will promote his candidate to the presidency. Hence the nullification, which nullified all their attempts. Is there a point in wasting energy and resources if it all ends up in vain and the Darkest one sits on the throne again?

        Although I personally am almost sure that it will not sit down. New people are needed in the authorities who have a clear idea of ​​what the Russia of the future should be like. In my opinion, Putin has never had such a project. His task was to bring the state into a more or less divine form, to restore elementary controllability. And in this case, when the patient is dying, it makes no sense to decide where he will work, live, whom he will marry.

        Now times have changed, and Putin is likely to leave at 24. And even earlier, like Nazarbayev. Although this is just speculation. Wait and see.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 27 May 2021 11: 06
          +3
          Quote: Artyom Karagodin
          In my opinion, he did not reset to zero in order to return to power.

          Putin and Lukashenka have already done so much during their reign that they are simply doomed to be in power there. This is the only safe place for them.
        2. Daniil Konovalenko
          Daniil Konovalenko 27 May 2021 12: 47
          +1
          From a change in the places of the terms, the amount will not change.
    2. Stas157
      Stas157 27 May 2021 08: 09
      +4
      Quote: Nagan
      If "beautiful far away "- these are empty store shelves

      I would go to a Soviet co-shop, there always was your sausage. And completely free. Just a ruble more expensive ... Why didn't I take it there?

      But then in the 90s - your abundance happened, but the people were really hungry. Nonsense, but the shelves are full!
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 27 May 2021 08: 15
        +1
        Quote: Stas157
        I would go to the cooptorg, your sausage was always there. And completely free. Just a ruble more expensive ... Why didn't I take it there?

        Because the engineering salary was 115 rubles a month. Well, let's say, experienced ones have more, but not much. In the times described, both mom and dad were engineers, and received somewhere around 130. With two children. Somehow cooperative shops and market fruits did not fit into the budget.
        And during perestroika, cooperative prices suddenly became many times higher than state prices.
        Yes, and here on the site it is not customary to poke. We did not drink with you.
        1. tatra
          tatra 27 May 2021 08: 40
          -2
          What moral right do you, enemies of the USSR, have to proceed with manic criticism of the USSR, if after you seized the USSR you did EVERYTHING worse for the country and the people?
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 27 May 2021 10: 57
            -6
            Baby, what moral right do you have to tell people what they can and cannot say.
            You, commies, with your dictate "faq is allowed, but faq is not allowed" and constant banning pumped a beautiful country, and now blame some enemies for this. Give you power now, you will ruin the last thing that somehow survived by a miracle. Enough already, commanded to Mishka and Borka and the current impostor in the Kremlin.
            1. tatra
              tatra 27 May 2021 12: 31
              0
              And the enemies of the communists are not able to express themselves in the vocabulary of civilized people? The period after the capture of the USSR by you, the enemies of the communists, under your cowardly incantations "and we have nothing to do with it, it's all the communists are to blame," is a total degradation in EVERYTHING, without exception, starting with the vocabulary of those who own the country - in comparison with the USSR. Therefore, you have no moral right to rage against the USSR.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 27 May 2021 12: 47
                -1
                Do you seriously consider your own speech "the lexicon of civilized people"? laughing AB You can do it! Where is this country heading in the presence of such "patriots"? laughing laughing
                Do you re-read yourself at least occasionally?
                ... this is a total degradation in EVERYTHING, without exception, starting with the vocabulary of those who own the country - in comparison with the USSR. Therefore, you have no moral right to rage against the USSR.

                Awesome! No, you certainly have every right to talk about degradation. laughing laughing You, and those alternatively gifted who give you plus signs. wassat
                Lord, who only produces all of you, in which incubator? fool
          2. Squelcher
            Squelcher 27 May 2021 12: 10
            0
            It's one thing to throw slogans, it's another thing to work hard at a construction site. Who is in the government now sits all who were members of the Komsomol and party members in the USSR.
        2. Stas157
          Stas157 27 May 2021 08: 50
          +3
          The problem with shortage lines in the USSR was in fixed prices. Cooperatives and markets have somehow solved this problem.


          Here you go, any sausage without a special queue. So there was also meat in that sausage!

          Make, for example, a cheap state price for high-quality GOST sausage now in poor Russia, I assure you, there will be a line to heaven.
          1. smaug78
            smaug78 27 May 2021 08: 56
            -1
            And then there was the third category sausage. And your picture shows the same sausage in the market, not in the store ...
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 27 May 2021 08: 58
              0
              Quote: smaug78
              And in your picture is the same sausage on the market, not in the store ...

              You are absolutely right, dear friend:

              Quote: Stas157
              Cooperatives and markets somehow solved this problem.

              I wrote about this))
              1. smaug78
                smaug78 27 May 2021 09: 16
                0
                I wrote about this))
                they didn’t decide anything - it’s expensive ..
          2. Revolver
            Revolver 27 May 2021 09: 12
            -6
            Quote: Stas157
            Here you go, any sausage and skip the line. And there was still meat in that sausage!

            I don't know if you noticed or not, but smoked sausages hang, and they buy mostly boiled ones. Cheaper. And yes, they had meat in them. Based on the picture, mid-1970s at the latest. And by the mid-1980s, most cooked sausages, including the once delicious Doctor's, had dropped their meat content to the point where garbage cats were reluctant to eat. But man is such a brute that he will devour everything. Then my brother and I grew up, at least received scholarships, and then salaries, but my parents were still working, and we could already afford smoked sausage, we only had to know the places where she had been.
            Arriving in America in the 1990s, in the first year we ate too many of these sausages, of many different varieties, both boiled and smoked, and in most of them there was still meat. And now we do not buy sausage, in general, from the word "absolutely" - not the healthiest product.
          3. Alexander Kopychev
            Alexander Kopychev 27 May 2021 09: 23
            +3
            Do not forget that in your picture the same sausage which miraculously did not hit the grocery shelves.
          4. Catfish
            Catfish 27 May 2021 10: 49
            -5
            And why then in the seventies to us in Moscow by buses and trains went with sacks of baskets for the same sausage?

            Don't remember the anecdote:
            "Question: Long, green and smells like sausage - what is it?
            Answer: Train Moscow - Ryazan ".

            You shouldn't rub it in on us, for those who have lived in the Soviet Union for more than a dozen years. You can't imagine a more stupid occupation.
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 27 May 2021 14: 04
              +3
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Why then in the seventies to us in Moscow by buses and trains traveled with sacks of baskets for the same sausage?

              It was so cheap to drive before. If the prices for travel (train, plane) were the same as now, then no one would go. Why not take a ride? I was a student who easily flew on a plane for a Soviet scholarship, for the benefit of students, there were also discounts. And my father also drove to Moscow to shop for the festive table before the wedding.

              The converse is also true. If now there were free prices for movement, and a normal GOST sausage in non-rubber was cheap, then you can be sure now the same picture would be observed! hi
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 27 May 2021 14: 22
                -7
                It was so cheap to drive before.

                Or maybe there was simply nothing to eat in any Taldomy, eh? There would be food in their shops, and there would be no need to travel. I saw how a crowd with these bags flew in from a bus that drove up to the Supermarket, but the manager came out and closed the cash register, and called the outfit. This is the beginning of the seventies at Serebryano-Vinogradsky ponds in Moscow, we went to the wine department and saw everything.
                1. Stas157
                  Stas157 27 May 2021 16: 16
                  +2
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Or maybe there was simply nothing to eat in any Taldomy, eh?

                  The main thing is that there was money and work in bulk. Required everywhere, required ... And the shops? As far as I remember, in the most run-down store there is bread, eggs, matches, canned food for every taste, any juices (before, everyone drank when they went to the store, because they were cheap and natural!), Simple sweets, milk ... all this was always the case. You won't die of hunger, as some portray here! And in Moscow, shops were simply amazed with their abundance, and in Ukraine, too, after the Russian hinterland.

                  You probably remember all this yourself better than me. I have the warmest memories of this incredibly carefree time. Where there is no need to think with concern about the future! And what if I lose my job, how to live with a mortgage, how to determine how children go to kindergarten, how to send a child's money to school in the fall, where to find money for higher education, how to live up to retirement, and manage not to get stuck with those crumbs ... and the current stress and people have not measured their time with money. The current mercantile generation does not know what it is, and those who know are already beginning to forget. It was so long ago. But wasn't it?
            2. Revolver
              Revolver 27 May 2021 18: 46
              +1
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Don't remember the anecdote:
              "Question: Long, green and smells like sausage - what is it?
              Answer: Train Moscow - Ryazan ".

              I have heard in the version "Leningrad-Cherepovets train". lol
              Mom regularly went to Cherepovets on business trips and carried sausages to friends. And the acquaintances were exactly the ones with whom she was supposed to work on inconsistencies in the project at the metallurgical plant, and the sausage greatly improved the working atmosphere.
        3. Konnick
          Konnick 27 May 2021 08: 51
          +10
          Because the engineering salary was 115 rubles a month. Well, let's say, experienced ones have more, but not much. In the times described, both mom and dad were engineers, and received somewhere around 130. With two children. Somehow cooperative shops and market fruits did not fit into the budget.


          I started my career in the regional center as a designer after graduation from 120 rubles in 1985, six months later it was already 150, and two years later I already received 250, this is in addition to rationalization proposals. Veal on the market was 4 rubles each, in the co-shop there was always sausage. At the foundry where I worked, the highest salary was for the cutters - under 500. Those who wanted to earn earned money, and leave these tales about 120 rubles on the conscience of the Ogonyok journalists.

          This is my Komsomol. First, contributions were paid from the salary, and then from the net.
          1. Stas157
            Stas157 27 May 2021 09: 09
            +7
            Quote: Konnick
            and these fairy tales about 120 rubles leave Ogonyok on the conscience of the journalists.

            I confirm.
            My mom is a radio controller with secondary education received 250 re. And my father is a radio control engineer with a higher education at the same plant for 350 already. We worked for a military commissar. There were two vegetable gardens and a car that my father received at the factory. The apartment is 3-room. We received the last 4-room apartment in 91. Free of charge, of course. Until now, the two of them live in it.
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 27 May 2021 09: 16
              +3
              In the defense industry they paid more, but the secrecy did not attract me, if they paid attention to the contributions, in August I only had 69 rubles, this was from me for a trip to Hungary, 200 rubles, in my opinion, they took from the salary, but now they say we are not going anywhere went, a year later a cruise on the Danube. We lived very "badly". And about 120 rubles, my father died early and my brother and I were entitled to a pension of exactly 120 rubles, this pension was paid before graduation from the institute. And I won't even talk about the current survivor's pension.
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 27 May 2021 12: 34
              +2
              Quote: Stas157
              My mother, a radio controller with a secondary education, received 250 re.

              In Riga, at VEF and at Kommutator in 1975, the minimum wage for female installers is at least 220 rubles, for men - 250 rubles, and for less they would not work - I saw it myself. was at the factory practice there. Moreover, they received them without straining too much, as it seemed to me - at the beginning of the month they usually worked cool so that their prices would not be reduced. This is how they "lived in poverty" in the USSR, and in Riga in general everything was in stores - they created all the conditions at the expense of other regions of the country.
          2. Revolver
            Revolver 27 May 2021 09: 25
            -1
            Quote: Konnick
            I started my career in the regional center as a designer after graduating from the institute with 120 rubles in 1985, six months later it was already 150, and two years later I was already receiving 250, this is in addition to rationalization proposals.

            I had about the same height in about the same years. By the time I left, I had grown to become a leading engineer with a salary of 250, and add it together with the premium. But in the 1960s-1970s there was no such rapid growth, and there were about 50 premiums per quarter, in design institutes. At the factories, probably a little higher, but I understand the parents, in the design offices the work was more interesting and the audience was more pleasant than in the design bureaus at the factories.
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 27 May 2021 09: 31
              0
              At the factories, probably a little higher, but I understand the parents, in the design offices the work was more interesting and the audience was more pleasant than in the design bureaus at the factories.


              This is yes. When I came to Moscow to the Giproavtoprom and entered the offices, a rustle was immediately heard and an incomprehensible commotion arose. They just hid everything, some fiction with magazines, some knitting, and some even chess. They were just idlers, but how they talked with a breath about democratization ... But we had no time to talk, we worked.
              1. Revolver
                Revolver 27 May 2021 10: 29
                0
                I don’t know about yours, but my projects went into metal. As for my parents, I will name only one project in which my mother participated. Blast furnace 5 in Cherepovets. Is it like a magazine or chess?
                1. Konnick
                  Konnick 27 May 2021 10: 36
                  +3
                  And these are mine, colleague


                  1. Revolver
                    Revolver 27 May 2021 11: 03
                    +1
                    Impressive. I can't boast of that. At the end of the last century, I retrained as programmers, and only those who were given access are allowed into the corporate websites that I made.
                  2. Konnick
                    Konnick 27 May 2021 11: 26
                    +3
                    With the Worker and the Collective Farm Woman, I did only that yellow traverse. But my knees shook when they lifted laughing
                  3. Revolver
                    Revolver 27 May 2021 11: 40
                    0
                    Quote: Konnick
                    But my knees shook when they lifted

                    Understand. When I was an engineer in Leningrad, I also had to design load-handling devices. Certainly not for such notable projects. Some of the most disgusting projects, no fame, no money, and responsibility is just nowhere. As my boss told me, demanding a well-formed explanatory with strength calculations, “you are doing this not for yourself, and not for me, and not for the chief engineer (his signature was the main one on the projects), but for the prosecutor. the first where he will climb. "
                  4. Konnick
                    Konnick 27 May 2021 11: 52
                    +1
                    had to design lifting devices

                    By that time, I was no longer designing myself, only checking the documentation and controlling the assembly. Then the test program was very sophisticated, with excess load, with eccentric loading, etc.
                    And I have been working with the WHSD in Leningrad for 8 years, this is in the top picture. Now the view of the Neva Bay has changed, it has become urbanistic and I do not like it, although the chief architect of the project said when I asked him why the masts and fences were white, this was impractical. He answered - Peter is a gray city, we need to make it lighter lol And in St. Petersburg he was engaged in the reconstruction of the bridge named after Lieutenant Schmidt, now Blagoveshchensky again. And how much blood did Zenit stadium drink ...
    3. Serg65
      Serg65 27 May 2021 10: 32
      -4
      Quote: Konnick
      I started my labor activity in the regional center as a designer after the institute from 120 rubles in 1985, six months later it was already 150,

      In general, the entire Union lived in your city and worked exclusively at your Foundry! And the tales about 120 rubles were invented in Langley! good
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 27 May 2021 10: 41
        0
        In general, the entire Union lived in your city and worked exclusively at your Foundry! And the tales about 120 rubles were invented in Langley!

        Now this city has the lowest salary in the Volga region, and once Muscovites were jealous. Judging by the nickname with the number 65, it seems that those times should have been caught, or are you a Muscovite?
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 27 May 2021 11: 26
          +2
          Quote: Konnick
          or are you a Muscovite?

          or not a Muscovite!
          Quote: Konnick
          like they should have caught those times,

          Of course I found ... and the Russian non-black earth, and Altai, and the south of the Krasnoyarsk Territory and Central Asia! All that is below the regional center life did not seem like sugar, only summer cottages and personal subsidiary plots saved!
          And about ...
          Quote: Konnick
          Whoever wanted to earn, he earned

          I agree, but few have succeeded! Someone had to work on the ground!
          Quote: Konnick
          this is from me for a trip to Hungary, 200 rubles, in my opinion, they took from my salary, but now they say we did not go anywhere, a year later a cruise on the Danube

          Again, the father and mother have never been anywhere, father-salary 250 rubles, mother 95 rubles, three children dependent and a grandmother with a thirty-ruble pension! The only time I took them out to sea was, in 91 they came to me in Sevastopol for a week.
    4. chenia
      chenia 27 May 2021 16: 29
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      I started my career in the regional center as a designer after the institute from 120 rubles in 1985, six months later it was already 150, and two years later I already received 250, this is in addition to rationalization proposals


      In! My godfather also increased my salary at such a speed. I myself am an officer, my first salary (or rather the pay) was 240 rubles. and went up to 500. Dad and Brother too.
      120 rubles from us women received (mother, wives), so they were not particularly overwhelmed (120 rubles is the initial unemployment benefit, and even if you add quarterly, annual bonuses, 13th more came out. At the same time 15 rubles. for the entire communal apartment (3-room apartment with a telephone, hot water - baths at least three times a day, gas) .And the meat in the store - 1,80-2.20 (the price from the 60s did not rise). at the bazaar to 3,5 r. - and there it has always been.

      There, the boy was just unlucky with his parents (all his life 130 rubles - it is necessary to have a special talent), so he is angry with the Soviet regime.
    5. Terran ghost
      Terran ghost 27 May 2021 18: 31
      +2
      Quote: "And leave these tales about 120 rubles on the conscience of the Ogonyok journalists."
      Well, let's turn to quite official Soviet statistics.
      http://istmat.info/node/20550
      lowest table.
      For 1981 in the Soviet Union:
      - employees who received a salary of 80 rubles a month or less - 6,3 percent
      - employees who received a salary of 120 rubles a month or less - 32 percent
      - employees who received a salary of 160 rubles a month or less - 56 percent.
      - employees who received a salary of 200 rubles a month or more - 24 percent
      - employees who received a salary of 250 rubles a month or more - 11,6 percent
      - workers who received a salary of 300 rubles a month or more - 6,1 percent.
      The median salary is most likely in the region of 150-155 rubles.
      For 1986 across the Soviet Union
      - employees who received a salary of 80 rubles a month or less - 4,8 percent
      - employees who received a salary of 120 rubles a month or less - 28,8 percent
      - employees who received a salary of 160 rubles a month or less - 48,4 percent.
      - employees who received a salary of 200 rubles a month or more - 32,2 percent
      - employees who received a salary of 250 rubles a month or more - 17,1 percent
      - workers who received a salary of 300 rubles a month or more - 9,5 percent.
      The median salary is most likely around 170 rubles.
  • ivan2022
    ivan2022 27 May 2021 11: 05
    +3
    Quote: Nagan
    In the times described, both mom and dad were engineers, and received somewhere around 130. With two children


    False. This is a graduate student of the university received 130, not an engineer! Engineers with experience received 170-250. In 1985, the average monthly salary in the country was 180. Did both your parents work? So if you do not lie, there will be at least 340 rubles.
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 27 May 2021 11: 28
      0
      Quote: ivan2022
      In 1985, the average monthly salary in the country was 180

      And I'm talking about the late 1960s and early 1970s.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 28 May 2021 11: 39
        +1
        Quote: Nagan
        And I'm talking about the late 1960s and early 1970s.

        Here is a photo from those times, so we were "starving", because no one in the country heard about palm oil, they ate everything natural:
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 28 May 2021 14: 45
          +3
          Quote: ccsr
          late 1960s and early 1970s.

          Here is a photo from those times, so we were "starving", because no one in the country heard about palm oil, they ate everything natural:

          I love to screw it
          I did not go to the ceremonial meeting and reception with Marshal Zakharov on the occasion of the 44 anniversary of the Soviet Army: I was fed up with the chatter about how strong and good we were. Five years ago, they shouted heavily that we would soon catch up with America in milk and meat. And now, when we are acutely lacking in meat, milk and butter (they come from Gorky to Moscow for meat, they ask for oil from Leningrad, and there are no more than one thrush a day at the Babiyorodsk market in Moscow), the cries on this subject have ceased. In agriculture, our business is tight. A lot of fraud, even more “valuable” indications that contradict each other - as a result, the number of livestock in some places is already declining. The indiscriminate introduction of corn, requiring special climatic conditions and a large amount of fertilizer, is also making itself felt.

          Korolev called Commander and insisted on a three-day flight. Our leadership showed weakness and under the pressure of the Queen agreed with his proposal: if everything is fine for two days, then we can allow the flight for three days.
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 28 May 2021 18: 32
          0
          Vologda? Well, I remember. Only in Leningrad it was not cut with a knife, but with something like a guitar string with two handles at the ends. They cut layers of about 100 mm thick with a string, and already they were cut with a knife into pieces of whatever weight the buyer ordered. And there was no excitement, they took a gram of 200-300, a pound was already causing looks of surprise, such as what a huge family to eat so much. Then not everyone had refrigerators, and the food spoiled from lying. We then had a "Yuryuzan" with a handle and a lock like a car, it was oh, how hard it was for me to open it for a small boy, and to close it I had to throw the door with a bang. The refrigerator was large and half-empty, although it always contained a huge soup pot and a low but large-diameter pot of cutlets or fish. And in the late 1970s, we changed it to an even larger ZIL, and somehow it began to be missed, because sausage, cheese, butter, sour cream were bought in kilograms, and meat and fish were also frozen in reserve in case of interruptions. So we had to start up the old Ladoga refrigerator, which was once bought in the early 1960s to take the children (my brother and I) to the dacha in the summer, and since then stood, depicting a bedside table, covered with a beautiful tablecloth.
    2. BAI
      BAI 27 May 2021 22: 16
      0
      This is a graduate student of the university received 130, not an engineer!

      In 1987, as a young specialist, an engineer, immediately after graduation, I received 130 at a research institute.
      1. andrew42
        andrew42 28 May 2021 17: 55
        0
        I'm younger, in 1987 after the 9th grade I had a summer practice at the patron's factory. The first month I worked as a milling machine on a machine with manual feed, and when I came out on more expensive parts I earned 112 rubles. The second month he worked as an assembly fitter on a conveyor belt of walk-behind tractors - he received 150 rubles. For 16 years it was just a fairy tale.
  • ccsr
    ccsr 27 May 2021 12: 27
    -1
    Quote: Stas157
    I would go to a Soviet co-shop, there always was your sausage. And completely free. Just a ruble more expensive ... Why didn't I take it there?

    It was not at all necessary to go to a co-shop, because in the sixties there was also sausage in ordinary grocery stores, although there were few varieties:
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 27 May 2021 18: 59
      0
      So in your photo, the 1960s, the maximum is the first half of the 1970s. And by the 1980s, on the periphery, it disappeared altogether, and interruptions began in Leningrad. Well, the quality fell below the baseboard.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 27 May 2021 19: 14
        +2
        Quote: Nagan
        And by the 1980s, on the periphery, it disappeared altogether, and interruptions began in Leningrad.

        No wonder - well-being in the seventies and eighties became better, and people began to eat more, so they swept everything off the shelves. Everybody had refrigerators at home, and those who lived then remember that they were not empty.
        Quote: Nagan
        Well, the quality fell below the baseboard.

        As for the quality, this is a lie - compared to the current meat content of 40-50% in sausages, the Soviets had at least 92-95% meat, although of course they could cheat wherever, but not much, because knew what happened. So then food was safe, but because of the lack of preservatives, it could not be stored for a long time. For that now we eat chemistry and are glad that there is a lot of it. But no one really thinks about how this will affect health.
  • not main
    not main 27 May 2021 23: 02
    +3
    Quote: Stas157
    I would go to a Soviet co-shop, there always was your sausage. And completely free. Just a ruble more expensive ... Why didn't I take it there?

    For a ruble? First it was the RUBLE! And secondly, the same dairy or doctor's one cost 2,20 rubles, and in cooptorga it was already 5,50 rubles, and this is for a ruble?
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 27 May 2021 05: 03
    +3
    It will break out ... it takes time for the conditions to ripen to change the structure of society ... this process is objective and will take a long time ... maybe more than one century.
    And so the leap into a brighter future cost the people dearly ... read Agabekov's book ... Chekist's notes.
    The methods for achieving the goal were very, very cruel.
    1. Peak
      Peak 27 May 2021 05: 22
      +2
      Why did the Russians hold out?

      And this, from ancient times, is the Great Mystery and Riddle for all who tried to enslave or destroy Russia, to eradicate the Russian spirit.

      And what amazed most of all and continues to amaze our enemies is that this inexplicable, mysterious and paradoxical "Russian spirit" which (a miracle!) Turns out to be mentally in the Tatar, Mordvin and Chechens, when the peoples inhabiting Russia, Russia , unite to reflect a common threat.

      How can I explain this to them? "On the fingers", you will not show this yes
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 27 May 2021 07: 58
        +2
        Quote: PiK
        And this, since ancient times, is the Great Mystery

        There is no secret. The West always counts on the corrupt elite, but gets it from the people as much as possible.
        1. Uncle lee
          Uncle lee 27 May 2021 08: 51
          +2
          Quote: Boris55
          counts on the selling elite

          Quote: Boris55
          he receives from the people on the sopatke.

          Boris hi How do you assess the current Christmas tree?
          I have great doubts about her "resilience"!
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 27 May 2021 09: 12
            -5
            Quote: Uncle Lee
            How do you assess the current Christmas tree?

            There is Putin and the people. No matter what they say, the people trust Putin. There is a management layer between Putin and the people, which was appointed by US agents throughout the country in the 90s and which works for their masters. The West understands very well that while the clan of the siloviki is in power, they will not be able to cope with Russia. Their hope is that the Medvedevskys will seize the Duma again in these autumn elections and abolish the post of president, or Medvedev, who has now been put in a "sump", so that for the time being does not shine, will become president and for another iPhone he will surrender everything that is possible and can't ...

            Putin has partially succeeded in nationalizing the elite and forced them to work for the interests of the country, but this is a very fragile state. At the first nix they will all go over to our enemies.

            It is necessary to radically change the Constitution. Perhaps the new Duma, thanks to Putin's amendments to the Constitution (10 + 1), elected under the new rules, will finally be able to pass a law on the Constitutional Assembly, which in turn will change Ch. 1, 2 and 9 currently in force.

            Only with the permission or even with the participation of a part of the "elite" our FSB almost every day prevents terrorist attacks throughout the country ...
            1. Terran ghost
              Terran ghost 27 May 2021 18: 34
              -2
              Well, everything seems to be clear with you.
              Another denier of fundamental personal and civil human rights and freedoms. The rights and freedoms of other people, but not your loved one, as is usually the case.
            2. Revival
              Revival 28 May 2021 21: 07
              0
              Boris, why are we still collecting text messages for children for treatment, I remember there were huge billboards that we would accept amendments and cure everyone, save everyone !?
              Where!?
              How many centuries later !?
          2. Revival
            Revival 28 May 2021 21: 05
            0
            In vain, in vain you asked ...
        2. Peak
          Peak 27 May 2021 09: 30
          +1
          Quote: Boris55
          There is no secret.


          This is no mystery or mystery for you. And for those who are grinning at us, Russia is - Unknown land , a country of mystery, with an unpredictable people.

          After all, it was written:

          Quote: PiK
          And this, since ancient times, is Great Mystery and Riddle for all who tried to enslave or destroy Russia


          After all, you, not an invader, not an occupier?
        3. 2 Level Advisor
          2 Level Advisor 27 May 2021 19: 57
          0
          this is what kind of corrupt elite Hitler was counting on in 1941?
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 28 May 2021 08: 12
            +1
            Quote: Level 2 Advisor
            this is what kind of corrupt elite Hitler was counting on in 1941?

            Tukhachevsky, who proposed concentrating all forces on the border and which allowed Hitler to talk about a blitzkrieg that would not have certainly happened if he had been listened to.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 28 May 2021 11: 44
              +2
              Quote: Boris55
              Tukhachevsky, who proposed concentrating all forces on the border and which allowed Hitler to talk about a blitzkrieg that would not have certainly happened if he had been listened to.

              Just don’t fantasize about Tukhachevsky’s activities in 1941 - he was shot in 1938 and had nothing to do with operational plans at all, tk. the last years of his service he was engaged in arming the Red Army. I do not deny that he damaged our army in the pre-war period, but we should not overdo it with his role in the events of 1941.
            2. Revival
              Revival 28 May 2021 21: 11
              +1
              On Tukhachevsky! Hitler was counting on ?! In 1941?
              That's it.
            3. Revival
              Revival 28 May 2021 21: 14
              +1
              "if they had listened to him."

              You know, Tukhachevsky might have been listened to in 1941, but he was meanly silent!
              Here is a sly man.
              And how do you assess Tukhachevsky's outrageous speech at the 20th Congress?
          2. Revival
            Revival 28 May 2021 21: 09
            +1
            Hitler counted on Tukhachevsky in 41!
            About how!
    2. Stas157
      Stas157 27 May 2021 07: 14
      0
      ... Hitler was counting only on a blitzkrieg. To shock and awe. Only for the complete breakdown of the consciousness of the Russians and their demoralization. Into internal decay ... Into "parade of sovereignties»

      And it happened. Without any Hitler! Immediately after the collapse of the USSR. But the current leaders blame ... the USSR! Say, it was the communists who laid a mine for them under the new Russian statehood. They say the communists did not foresee that capitalism would come later! Rather, it is a semi-feudal caste Kumovsk state with stolen offshores, palaces and yachts. From which everyone scatters in different directions, if not keep.
    3. tatra
      tatra 27 May 2021 08: 42
      -2
      Why should the enemies of the USSR give a damn about the monstrous price paid by the republics of the USSR and their peoples for the destruction of the USSR?
      1. smaug78
        smaug78 27 May 2021 08: 55
        -5
        And you do not care about the loss of allies?
  • Fedor egoist
    Fedor egoist 27 May 2021 15: 18
    +2
    Quote: Samsonov
    Battle of two technomagic civilizations

    Quote: Samsonov
    Russia, like the Third Reich, was a technomagical civilization with a strong communal, corporate beginning. People united in structures dedicated to a great idea, goal and common cause. The people could act as one superpersonality. In unity

    Quote: Samsonov
    One "guest from the future" tried to destroy the other. A battle of titans and priests broke out. The "black sun" of the Reich attacked the red civilization of the future.

    1. andrew42
      andrew42 28 May 2021 18: 03
      0
      Plus for the picture. This is how minus turns into plus. The bottom picture is an immeasurably more capacious image. Works ... on the article!
  • Bakinec
    Bakinec 27 May 2021 03: 55
    +7
    It was not the Russians who survived, but the Soviet people. Representatives of 30 nationalities were among the defenders of the Brest Fortress alone.
    1. SERGE ANT
      SERGE ANT 27 May 2021 04: 12
      +18
      "Comrades, let me raise one more, final toast.
      I would like to raise a toast to the health of our Soviet people and, above all, the Russian people (Stormy prolonged applause, cries of "Hurray").
      I drink, above all, for the health of the Russian people because it is the most prominent nation of all the nations that make up the Soviet Union.
      I am making a toast to the health of the Russian people because he deserved general recognition in this war as the leading force of the Soviet Union among all the peoples of our country.
      I make a toast to the health of the Russian people, not only because they are the leading people, but also because they have a clear mind, strong character and patience.
      Our government had many mistakes, we had moments of desperate situation in the 1941-1942 years, when our army retreated, left our native villages and cities of Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, the Leningrad Region, the Baltic States, the Karelian-Finnish Republic, left because there was no other way. Other people could tell the Government: you did not live up to our expectations, go away, we will set up another government that will conclude peace with Germany and provide us with peace. But the Russian people did not go for it, for they believed in the correctness of the policies of their Government and made sacrifices to ensure the defeat of Germany. And this confidence of the Russian people in the Soviet government turned out to be the decisive force that ensured a historic victory over the enemy of mankind - over fascism.
      Thanks to him, the Russian people, for this trust!
      For the health of the Russian people! "
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 27 May 2021 08: 02
        +7
        Quote: SERGE ant
        I would like to raise a toast to the health of our Soviet people and, above all, the Russian people

        I ask everyone to pay attention to the fact that in this toast of Stalin there is no mention of the role of the party.
        1. Valerikk
          Valerikk 27 May 2021 11: 30
          -1
          This is a toast to the Russian people and only to them. What does the party have to do with it?
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 28 May 2021 08: 04
            0
            Quote: Valerikk
            What does the party have to do with it?

            Likewise, what does the Soviet government have to do with it?
            1. Valerikk
              Valerikk 28 May 2021 11: 30
              0
              Quote: Boris55
              Likewise, what does the Soviet government have to do with it?

              There is also not a word about the role of the government.
    2. Stas157
      Stas157 27 May 2021 08: 22
      0
      Quote: Bakinec
      The Russians did not survive but the Soviet people. Representatives of 30 nationalities were among the defenders of the Brest Fortress alone.

      Would you have survived without the Russians? Great question. In the Second World War, at first, there were completely national units in places, which were not at all distinguished by their resistance. But after, when they were diluted with other nations, mainly Russians, then everything came in order.
      1. Bakinec
        Bakinec 27 May 2021 09: 54
        -1
        I also write about this. The Russians, Chechens, Ossetians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, etc. won. For example, you know that 70% of the fuel during the war was supplied from Baku oil.
        And so the article is similar to the thesis of the speech of a young representative of skinheads at a meeting of like-minded people.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 27 May 2021 11: 12
          +2
          Quote: Bakinec
          For example, you know that 70% of fuel during the war was supplied from Baku oil.

          hi Sure. Therefore, Hitler attacked Stalingrad in order to cut off Moscow from Baku oil along the Volga.
      2. Valerikk
        Valerikk 27 May 2021 11: 32
        +4
        Would you have survived without the Russians? Great question.
        Here, if there is a question, it is purely rhetorical.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 27 May 2021 03: 59
    +6
    If "everything happened as the Nazis planned," the war would have ended as they had planned. In fact, in the fall of 1941, Hitler's minister reported to Hitler that the war was essentially lost. Germany.
    It is true that the Germans hoped for an easy victory over the USSR based on the experience of World War I. But the question is: why did the civilizational differences between European countries and Russia-USSR in WW1 lead to a mirror-opposite course of action compared to 2 MB? What has changed in a quarter of a century?
    1. SERGE ANT
      SERGE ANT 27 May 2021 04: 27
      +16
      A lot has changed, above all the state system ..
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 27 May 2021 05: 30
        +7
        What are we talking about ...
    2. 210ox
      210ox 27 May 2021 05: 49
      +6
      Samsonov has another delirium. Hitler planned to COMPLETELY DESTROY the USSR., And not to persuade there to any "humiliating peace" But the Soviet people survived
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 13: 04
        -2
        Quote: 210ox
        Hitler planned to COMPLETELY DESTROY the USSR

        )))
        Of course not. The USSR did not end on the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line, someone deceived you.
        1. 210ox
          210ox 27 May 2021 13: 22
          +2
          Yah? The Nazis did not want to destroy the Soviet people together with the state ?? Someone deceived you. Isn't Kolya Urengois? You don't have to find fault with the word "COMPLETELY".
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 13: 39
            -8
            Quote: 210ox
            Did the Nazis want to destroy the Soviet people together with the state?

            Of course not. Find a geographic map somewhere.
            Quote: 210ox
            Isn't Kolya Urengoys cue?

            And what does Kolya have to do with it?
            1. 210ox
              210ox 27 May 2021 16: 24
              +2
              Well, of course! Even the Banderites were in German concentration camps (in privileged places). Well, of course, it is difficult to attribute them to the Soviet people. So the hope of the traitor collaborators to survive was of course. In the form of court mongrels. And what is Kolya for? Yes, to the fact that the mind and manners are similar to yours.
              1. 2 Level Advisor
                2 Level Advisor 27 May 2021 20: 08
                0
                in fairness. Dmitry .. during the seizure of territories by the Germans, the local population was not completely massacred like the Japanese. and organized those who stayed there to work for the benefit and for the good of Germany .. this is not a fact denied and the USSR, including, and you can’t refute it .. and Kolya with Urengoy. Oli s urengoy .. it’s after dozens of years - a child of the present and does not change the facts of the past .. the fascists still needed working hands. they were fascists and not .. but at the same time, yes, fascists are enemies, and yes, this is not an excuse for their atrocities ..
              2. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 20: 29
                +1
                Quote: 210ox
                Even the Banderites in German concentration camps sat (in privileged places

                To be honest, I was not interested.
                Quote: 210ox
                What is Kolya for? Yes, to the fact that the mind and manners are similar to yours.

                Kolya was simply out of luck. His speech was absolutely humane and politically literate. The idea that a conscript soldier is not collectively responsible was not questioned, including in Nuremberg. But while he was sitting there in his Urengoy, humanism and political literacy in Russia diverged greatly.
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 27 May 2021 05: 21
    +1
    Literally in an instant they put an end to illiteracy, banditry, unemployment and homeless children, trained millions of specialists in science and technology, education and culture.
    Well, about the "moment" this is too much (!) ... this is already "overkill"! But, nevertheless, they coped ... they finished ...: with illiteracy, banditry, unemployment and homeless children, they created a powerful economy, intelligentsia ... But there is one, but a big "catch"! We have created All This in an undemocratic way, without tolerance and liberalism, within the framework of an authoritarian state with "elements of monarchism"! And how can we not recall yet another "episode of the Great Reformation" ... the period of Peter I? I think that in these two "reforms" you can find common features! So what's more important? Moral "aspects" or result?
    1. 210ox
      210ox 27 May 2021 05: 51
      0
      Certainly the result. In this disgusting world, there is no other way.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 27 May 2021 07: 55
      +3
      Vladimir! Well, the author does not know about the resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU "On the completion of the liquidation
      illiteracy ", adopted at a closed meeting of the Secretariat of the Central Committee
      CPSU July 31, 1962 About the data of the census of 1926 and 1939 ... Well, he doesn't know. Therefore, it is so dashing and generalizes. And there is simply no time to read the relevant documents and research of smart people, and most likely there is no desire.
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 13: 10
      -2
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      So what's more important? Moral "aspects" or result?

      Lousy, frankly, the result.
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      We have created All This in an undemocratic way, without tolerance and liberalism, within the framework of an authoritarian state with "elements of monarchism"

      Elements of monarchism in Peter? This was not such a problem at the time. But the modernization itself turned out to be superficial. To put it bluntly, Peter, like Stalin, made an army modern of his time, ignoring all other aspects of the development of the state. Which, yes, slowed down and complicated modernization in a military sense, but strategically were much more important.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 27 May 2021 14: 11
        +2
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Elements of monarchism in Peter?

        My friend, why are you spreading this nonsense? stop And what does "Peter" have to do with it, when the talk with the mention of "elements of monarchism" was about a different time interval? request
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Peter, like Stalin, made an army modern of his time, ignoring all other aspects of the development of the state.

        Nonsense again! How can one "make an army modern of his time", ignoring the construction of the military industry, the construction of "accompanying" factories (that is, the "finally" industry ...), without opening sources of raw materials, without building a "vertical" of state administration and military leadership, without improving the organization, structure of the armed forces, state structures ...? Without the training of professional personnel, without the creation of educational institutions? After all, this is all interconnected! If you build a "cannon" plant, then you need to build a metal foundry that can make both chandeliers and trusses for bridges ... For a metal foundry you need raw materials and related materials ... then you need to look for copper, iron ore ... open mines , to build settlements, to bring in labor force ... in the end, to develop "desert" territories ... to train engineers, qualified locksmiths, turners, miners! And so on ... and so on, so on!
        After the civil war, the economy (industry) of the country was largely destroyed! A new world war was brewing in the world ... for too many were dissatisfied with the results of WW1! The First World War ... having solved some of the old problems, created new ones or aggravated a number of old ones! It was necessary to go through that path in the shortest possible time and achieve the results that other countries have achieved in a much longer time! And it was done! For, by historical standards, a scanty time, an agrarian country was turned into an industrial-agrarian power with a significant scientific component! Could this have been done in a short time by pluralism of opinions, liberalism, referendums, democratic elections and discussions? Yes, the industrial power is built in many respects "on bones", on rigid authoritarian control ... "with elements of monarchism"! But could this have been avoided? Is there an unequivocal reasoned opinion about this? After all, there are still disputes ... In the dispute, in the end, the truth is born ... maybe even here it will "be born ...; but not in that nonsense, not in that nonsense that I have to listen to!
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 14: 53
          -3
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          How can one "make an army modern of his time", ignoring the construction of the military industry, the construction of "accompanying" factories (that is, the "finally" industry ...), without opening sources of raw materials, without building a "vertical" of state administration and military leadership, without improving the organization, structure of the armed forces, state structures ...? Without professional training, without creating educational institutions?

          This is how it is in reality.
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          It's all interconnected

          Therefore, it turned out, frankly, lousy.
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          It was necessary to go through that path in the shortest possible time and achieve the results that other countries have achieved in a much longer time!

          What's even longer? From 1918? Did Russia and other countries have PMA at different times?
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          a tiny time an agrarian country was transformed into an industrial-agrarian power with a significant scientific component!

          This agrarian country had Nicholas' headquarters in Mogilev throughout the war. German from July 26, 1941 to July 28, 1944.
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Could this have been done in a short time by pluralism of opinions, liberalism, referendums, democratic elections and discussions?

          What will His Excellency Gustav Karlovich Mannerheim tell us about this?
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Is there an unequivocal reasoned opinion about this?

          It does not exist, since Russia without the Bolsheviks is an alternative history and hudlite.
      2. Terran ghost
        Terran ghost 27 May 2021 18: 40
        +1
        Elements of monarchism in Peter? This was not such a problem at the time.

        It's actually even funnier here. Absolutism (despotic monarchy) Peter I essentially borrowed from the states of Western Europe. For there, in those days (early 18th century), an unlimited (despotic) monarchy in the form of "enlightened absolutism led by an enlightened philosopher king" was considered ... the most progressive form of government.
        In the pre-Petrine era, there was no absolute monarchy in the Russian Kingdom. The supreme power was at the same time the royal throne and the Boyar Duma, when the most important issues were submitted to the resolution of the Zemsky Sobor. These are the curious historical facts.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 20: 38
          0
          Quote: Terran Ghost
          For there, in those days (early 18th century), an unlimited (despotic) monarchy in the form of "enlightened absolutism led by an enlightened philosopher king" was considered ... the most progressive form of government.

          Who was considered? Louis XIV?
          Quote: Terran Ghost
          In the pre-Petrine era, there was no absolute monarchy in the Russian Kingdom. The supreme power was at the same time the royal throne and the Boyar Duma, when submitting the most important issues to the resolution of the Zemsky Sobor

          You are slightly idealizing the pre-Petrine era, it seems to me. Ivan IV easily settled such formalities, and he was far from alone.
          1. Terran ghost
            Terran ghost 28 May 2021 10: 36
            0
            Who was considered? Louis XIV?

            Most of the then (second half of the 17th - first half of the 18th centuries) Western European intellectual elite. Hobbes, Voltaire, Turgot as quite striking examples.
            Ivan IV easily settled such formalities

            John IV the Tormentor ("formidable") of the "oprichnina" times was considered by his contemporaries in Russia to be something that did not fit into the norms of public morality.
            It was in Russia, and not in Western Europe, where, according to the customs of that time, "oprichnina" was not considered something "particularly transcendental" (against the background of the same "witch-hunt" that took place there in those years).
  • smihko
    smihko 27 May 2021 05: 22
    -11%
    He wrote an article for a kind of communist who, apart from blah blah blah, cannot say anything about the bright future. It was not the communists who won that war, but ordinary soldiers who carried on their backs all that that war brought them. Russians just know how to fight. They simply do not need to be betrayed, as happened at the beginning of the war, when the entire leadership of the country knew about the beginning of the war, but hoped for a miracle. There are no miracles. Either you are ready for war or expect huge losses, which is what happened. First of all, through the fault of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. God forbid repeating those mistakes. Russia has only two allies - the army and the navy. These words of Tsar Alexander are still relevant today.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 27 May 2021 06: 15
      +4
      Quote: smihko
      It was not the communists who won that war, but ordinary soldiers who carried on their backs all that that war brought them.
      And who gave the soldiers small arms, artillery, tanks and aircraft? And break through the ammunition for all this? Who trained the gunners, tank crews and aviators?

      Quote: smihko
      They simply do not need to be betrayed, as happened at the beginning of the war, when the entire leadership of the country knew about the beginning of the war, but hoped for a miracle.
      Porridge in one sentence, how is betrayal combined with belief in a miracle? Only in mental mess.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 13: 13
        -3
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        And who gave the soldiers small arms, artillery, tanks and aircraft? And break through the ammunition for all this?

        Something of the Romanovs was left, something the Americans brought up. Satisfied with the answer?
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Who trained the gunners, tank crews and aviators?

        Nobody taught, that's why they fought like that.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 27 May 2021 16: 27
          +2
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Something of the Romanovs was left, something the Americans brought up. Satisfied with the answer?
          Something not that incomplete, frankly defective answer, even degenerative. KV, T-34, IS (these are only tanks) from the Romanovs remained, or the Americans gave a lift, can you answer?

          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Nobody taught, that's why they fought like that.
          Nobody and nothing untrained soldiers under no command ended the war in Germany, does that happen? Can you answer?
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 20: 47
            -3
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Nobody and nothing untrained soldiers under no command ended the war in Germany, does that happen?

            Well, it was the same. The military reputation of the Reich was greatly exaggerated primarily by the French action. The French were generally harsh people, but they managed to fight the Germans somehow 50/50. That time it fell to the Germans.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            degenerative even. KV, T-34, IS (these are only tanks) from the Romanovs remained, or the Americans gave a lift, can you answer?

            Well, yes, they learned how to make tanks (BT - American, T-26 - English, the family of Leningrad medium-heavy ones began with the German TG project). And who did not do them? Poles? Hungarians?
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 03: 23
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              The French were generally harsh people, but they managed to fight the Germans somehow 50/50. That time it fell to the Germans.
              Well, when did the French end the war against Germany in Berlin, even if together with the British and the Americans and the Russians (without the communists)?

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Well, yes, they learned how to make tanks (BT - American, T-26 - English, the family of Leningrad medium-heavy ones began with the German TG project). And who did not do them? Poles? Hungarians?
              They did not do them in front of the little tsar, because there was nothing on.
              Well, the American BT and the English T-26, not to mention the Grotte tank, from which the Soviet tank building received nothing but losses at all, only the experience of the SOVIET tank building was given and for some time to contain the Nazis. By the way, they were built at the SOVIET tank factories, not at the American, not at the British - at the Soviet factories.
              So you wrote an idiocy about the Romanov legacy and imported weapons, which is already there.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 28 May 2021 08: 21
                0
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                when the French ended the war against Germany in Berlin

                Precisely in Berlin? The previous time was October 27, 1806. The British and Russians were then opponents of France, the Americans did not play.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                They did not do them in front of the little tsar, because there was nothing on.

                They were not made under the tsar, because the British had not yet invented them, and then there was no time for tanks.
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                By the way, they were built at the SOVIET tank factories, not at the American, not at the British - at the Soviet factories.

                As I already wrote, Comrade Stalin, without much success, tried to create an army modern for the 40s. In terms of armored vehicles, this more or less worked out, at least in terms of quantity.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 08: 34
                  +1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Precisely in Berlin? The previous time was October 27, 1806. The British and Russians were then opponents of France, the Americans did not play.
                  But Berlin during these years was not the capital of Germany.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  They were not made under the tsar, because the British had not yet invented them, and then there was no time for tanks.
                  The British did, the French did, even the Germans did, but the tsarbatyushka did not master it. But what about "Romanovskoe heritage", or was it such stupidity?

                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  As I already wrote, Comrade Stalin, without much success, tried to create an army modern for the 40s. In terms of armored vehicles, this more or less worked out, at least in terms of quantity.
                  The communists succeeded in this both in aviation and in artillery and even in the infantry, Romanov, in a much better situation, merged both the country and his own family.
        2. Terran ghost
          Terran ghost 27 May 2021 18: 43
          +1
          Quote: "Something left of the Romanovs"
          What exactly "remained from the tsarist times"? Particularly interested in the answer to such categories as "armored vehicles", "light machine guns", "military aviation".
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 20: 50
            -2
            Quote: Terran Ghost
            Particularly interested in the answer to such categories as "armored vehicles", "light machine guns", "military aviation".

            )))
            That is, you are aware that in almost all categories, except for those mentioned, from short-barreled to battleships, the legacy of tsarism was quite tangible. And do not hesitate to embarrass yourself.
            1. Terran ghost
              Terran ghost 28 May 2021 10: 23
              +1
              However, there is one small nuance. During the First World War, "for some reason" it happened that the Russian Imperial Army experienced a shortage of weapons and ammunition in most positions. And this shortage had to be filled by obtaining weapons abroad. And since the allied powers of the Russian Empire - Great Britain and France also participated in the war (and therefore they themselves needed to supply weapons "according to wartime standards"), sometimes they had to be content with what they gave according to the principle - "here you are, what is worthless yourself" (for example, those the already quite outdated rifles Gra, arr. 1874 and Vetterli, arr. 1880).
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 05: 16
          +1
          Quote: smihko
          In your opinion, this is how the communists gave Mosinka to the soldiers. After all, the PPSh did not appear on the fronts at the beginning of the war.
          Do you imagine that the three-rulers in the Second World War were made under the tsar, they just lay in warehouses for more than 20 years? Okay, let's move on (let's fall more precisely) tsk to your level, well, let's say, but what about the SVT, machine guns, mortars, the same PPSh (stupidity about not at the beginning of the war, a separate conversation), since you are not aware of the PPD, but after all it's only infantry, what about tanks, artillery and aviation, also from the tsar's warehouses?

          Quote: smihko
          And who was to blame for the fact that a good half of the aviation was destroyed at the airfields? The planes didn't even take off.
          just scales. What do the communists have to do with the narrow-mindedness of individual military leaders? The country, under the leadership of the communists, GAVE these planes, TRAINED the pilots and at least half of the planes were able to fight. Are these royal planes and pilots?

          Quote: smihko
          Stalin just fucked up the beginning of the war!
          These words are not even shkoloty, these are the words of an idiot like Mlechin with Svanidze, and from the 90s.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 28 May 2021 08: 27
            0
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            also from the royal warehouses?

            Why warehouses? Won't you count the work of the tsarist enterprises?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            The country, under the leadership of the communists, GAVE these planes, TRAINED the pilots and at least half of the planes were able to fight.

            )))
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Who trained the gunners, tank crews and aviators?

            Nobody taught, that's why they fought like that.

            Quote: smihko
            Stalin just fucked up the beginning of the war!

            )))
            How to say. Everything is complicated there.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 09: 24
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Why warehouses? Won't you count the work of the tsarist enterprises?
              Reconstructed under the leadership of the Communists, converted under the leadership of the Communists and newly built under their leadership, can you name a lot of tank, aviation, and even automobile factories under the little princess? Not to mention the radio industry.

              Quote: Cherry Nine
              How to say. Everything is complicated there.
              Everything is simple there, there are absolute and relative figures for weapons and trained specialists, and that's what, according to these figures, tsarist Russia leaked to all contemporaries, but the USSR did not.
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 27 May 2021 07: 09
      +5
      Quote: smihko
      It was not the communists who won that war, but ordinary soldiers

      Isn't it the same thing often? lol
    3. tatra
      tatra 27 May 2021 08: 46
      +5
      And it was not Hitler and the Nazis who attacked the USSR, but the "ordinary soldiers" of Germany?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 27 May 2021 11: 05
        -2
        And the USSR was not attacked by Hitler and the Nazis


        The USSR was attacked by Hitler and the Nazis, and the USSR was defended by Stalin and the Stalinists.
        She-bo - 3 - "A" pants with straps. laughing

        Incidentally, both there and there "ordinary soldiers" were the overwhelming majority.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 27 May 2021 05: 45
    +1
    The author, you should be in charge of the President's Administration, instead of Shuvalov. laughing
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 27 May 2021 05: 50
    +1
    And therefore they survived that the Russians, and this is irrespective of the nationality of each individual person. Everyone who lives with us in the same society becomes an automatic Russian in essence.
    Whoever disagrees with me, look at all these current self-styledists, especially the Ukrainians. Where do you think they end up?
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 27 May 2021 05: 52
    0
    Urbanization will mow down the Russian spirit
    and the Russian code combined. To win victories, you need to have cadres capable of organizing the people. After all, not machines, but entire factories were taken to the rear. And all this had to be managed. The people fought not only for their country, but also for their hut. , apartment. For everything that surrounded him. While the townspeople learned to dig trenches, trenches, it was not a wonder for the peasants. Where are they now? Farmers are not peasants. The state, taking away ordinary life from people, itself deprives people of patriotism. We need to think about this.
  • antivirus
    antivirus 27 May 2021 07: 02
    -1
    And without any chance of salvation.
    However, the communists performed the second miracle, and without any chance of salvation.

    -It is necessary to reconsider the role of NKKrupskaya and other devotees of enlightenment, NarKoPros.
    Knowledge is power, not just the power of education ...

  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 27 May 2021 07: 03
    -7
    The dash of the 1930s looks fantastic!
    that's for sure, there was no such fiction either in Africa, nowhere:
    The case of the death of family members of a Red Army soldier from starvation. 1933 In the family living in the village of Formosovo, the Shiroko-Bueraksky village council, the father, mother, brother and sister died of hunger. After the death of their parents, the children were forced to feed on carrion and the body of their own mother. F. R-461. Op. 4.D. 33.L. 31,32.

    On March 5, 33, public catering on the collective farm ceased, and *** fell ill, could not go to work, and therefore a hunger strike began.
    The family began to use the most suitable substitute, the father killed the dog, and after the death of his father, horse, human stool, fish scales, various rotten vegetables and grass were consumed.
    Remaining wife *** - Anna turned to the Board of the collective farm to give her the easiest job, but was refused, thus the hope of getting a renewed public catering was lost.
    On April 27, Anna died on the stove, the corpse lay uncleaned for three days, and on April 29, a 6-year-old boy Mikhail died near this corpse, and both corpses were buried on April 30.
    Daughter Natalia 18 years old / graduated from the seven-year school / cut off the breast of the mother's corpse, cooked it and ate **********

    In total, in the peaceful 1932-33, from 4 to 7 million "creators" died from a fierce death of starvation, and no one in the "society of creation, brotherhood and help to their neighbor" even helped them not to die, moreover, even the damned capitalist world was not asked to save them, how he saved millions in 1922-23

    NONE of the "equal, but leading creators" did not give a hint about them and did not erect a monument to them.
    But what about these equal but leading creators lived themselves at this time? Ate swan, crowded in basements and attics, like "ordinary creators equal to them"?

    Yeah: in 1931, a huge complex of 505 apartments was completed in Moscow: spacious apartments with ceilings 3,7 m with floor-to-ceiling windows, a freight elevator for collecting waste from kitchens, with rooms for servants, with a 1st floor for servants and guards, a passlift with a servant, with its own kindergarten, a Lechsanupra clinic, a laundry room, a club, a canteen, a shop and a distributor, with cool crystal fountains, tennis courts, a shooting gallery and huge blooming flower beds, playgrounds and paths, skating rinks watched by dozens of gardeners and janitors. Such is the little communist.

    In the society of "equality" a modest 18-year-old student named Svetlana (Satanka) Iosifovna received a luxurious apartment on the occasion of her marriage to a classmate - this is how equal co-students lived!

    From the workers' letters to the truth:
    “The line for bread is taken at 8 pm and, without leaving, they wait until 9 am, the rainy weather does not disperse it. Workers, female workers and office workers standing in line send greetings to the Soviet government: “This is how the Soviet government fed bread.

    It is not necessary to enumerate everything that is said against the Soviet power, for there is an infinite number of them and all in different formulations, but in conclusion, only mate is heard " (Bezhitsa, Molotkov).

    In the town of Melenki, classes start at 2 o'clock in the morning, and in the daytime people cannot walk and drive, only queues. Small children are sent to the queue, and they are crushed there by adults and so every day they bring children to the hospital half-dead. " (city of Melenki, Vladimir province, candidate of the Komsomol A. Chernov).

    fantastic, yes ...
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 27 May 2021 12: 44
      -3
      Quote: Olgovich
      In total, in the peaceful 1932-33, from 4 to 7 million "creators" died from a fierce death of starvation, and no one in the "society of creation, brotherhood and help to their neighbor" even helped them not to die, moreover, even the damned capitalist world was not asked to save them, how he saved millions in 1922-23

      That's it, "shit went down the pipes" - "Olgovich" got on his hobbyhorse and began to rub in his propaganda clichés. Only he cannot explain in any way why the people rallied around Stalin at a difficult moment, if the Bolsheviks staged a Holodomor for him. Why did our people not abandon their weapons and go over to the Germans without offering resistance, if the Germans promised them a beautiful life?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 27 May 2021 14: 14
        -6
        Quote: ccsr
        That's it, "shit went down the pipes" - "Olgovich" got on his hobbyhorse and began to rub in his propaganda clichés.

        how would you data multimillion starvation mortality was not named, they will not disappear. by the way, you are the last one to deny it.

        Quote: ccsr
        Only he cannot explain in any way why the people rallied around Stalin at a difficult moment, if the Bolsheviks staged a Holodomor for him.

        Around their fatherland people rallied
        : Stalin: The war you are waging is a war of liberation, a just war. May the courageous image of our great ancestors inspire you in this war - Alexander Nevsky, Dimitri Donskoy, Kuzma Minin, Dimitri Pozharsky, Alexander Suvorov, Mikhail Kutuzov!


        And the Holodomor, let me remind you, in the USSR officially did not exist (this is nothing that many times more fellow citizens perished in a year of peace than in the many years of the Great War from an adversary), just as there were "no" hundreds of thousands of executions per year 37-38, millions of robbed and exiled peasants, millions in camps, etc. - read the Soviet newspapers and speeches of the leaders.
        Quote: ccsr
        Why our people did not drop their weapons and did not go over to the Germans without resisting, if the Germans promised them a beautiful life?

        a million owls of citizens fought on the side of the Germans, 5 million in captivity, 2,5 million deserters are the population of the whole country.

        Everyone found out, in the end, that they were going to destroy us, what a "beautiful life"?
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 27 May 2021 16: 38
          +2
          Quote: Olgovich
          Let me remind you that the Holodomor did not officially exist in the USSR.

          To the degenrates, how much can you explain that famine and famine are very different things, for example, Britain deliberately arranged famine in Ireland and India, so it is the famine, and in tsarist Russia and then Soviet Russia, hunger arose due to a number of natural factors and subsequent organizational failures and a famine cannot be. But what are such trifles to Olgych, a deceitful Russophobe.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 28 May 2021 06: 32
            -2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Degenrates How long can you explain that hunger and famine are very different things?

            when an ignoramus "explains" from the category of these, such ridiculous questions arise.

            Ozhegov's Explanatory Dictionary:
            MOR- a, m. (obsolete). Rampant death

            famine - there is a general death from hunger.

            Got it, no? No.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            and in tsarist Russia and then Soviet Russia, famine arose due to a number of natural factors and subsequent organizational failures

            in Russia, yes, from natural factors, but there NEVER was such a terrible thing as under the Bolsheviks.

            but with them: Stalin 11 January 1933 g about the harvest of 1932:
            our harvest this year was no worse, but BETTER than in the previous year. No one can deny that the gross harvest of bread in 1932 was greater than in 1931
            in 1932 we had more bread in the country than in 1931ode

            do you hear, ignoramus? The 1932 crop is BETTER than 1931 (when not dead), but with this the best the harvest died Millions of
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Olgych, a lying Russophobe.

            what, after all, illiterate Russophobes, these Vladimir_2U
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 06: 47
              +1
              Quote: Olgovich
              Ozhegov's Explanatory Dictionary:
              MOR- a, m. (obsolete). Rampant death
              famine - there is a general death from hunger.
              Olgych has no mind that in Ozhegov's dictionary there is NO word "Holodomor" and this word has been introduced into circulation:
              In the early post-Soviet period, the neutral term "hunger" was in use. It is still preferred by professional historians, at least when communicating with an audience of students. In the course of importing interpretations from the West, the capacious word "Holodomor" came into use through journalism. The term "Holodomor" was introduced into the mass consciousness of Ukrainians and into international political vocabulary by the American political scientist and historian James Mays. ....
              ..Although the credit for the introduction of the phrase "Holodomor" goes to James Mace, its true authors are Ukrainian emigrants of the second wave. Apparently, an American scientist for the introduction of certain topics from the sphere of politics into the public and scientific, was a more suitable candidate than people with a reputation for collaborationists. In 1983-1984, just on the eve of the change in the leadership of the USSR, in all major cities of the United States and Canada, where there are large communities of Ukrainians, like mushrooms after the rain, monuments to the "victims of the Russian (or Moscow) Holodomor" began to grow. For example, on the monument, opened in Los Angeles in 1983, the inscription "Ukrainians - victims of the Russian communism, victims of the famine", on the monument erected in Winnipeg on June 24, 1984
              That's all you need to know about the origin of the concept of Holodomor and about those who use this word in Russophobic attacks on the USSR.

              Quote: Olgovich
              in Russia, yes, from natural factors, but there NEVER was such a terrible thing as under the Bolsheviks.
              A number of researchers (conscientious researchers, not hohloklikush and homegrown Russophobes) believe that the cause of most deaths is the epidemic of fever in combination with the defeat of grain reserves by a fungal disease, but Russophobes in keeping Westerners are not interested in such trifles.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 28 May 2021 08: 49
                -3
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Olgych has no mind that in Ozhegov's dictionary there is NO word "Holodomor"

                the poor student Vladimir_2U did not have enough thinking "abilities" to understand the meaning of the RUSSIAN word MOR and the RUSSIAN word GOLOD.
                For the ignorant:

                -Construction of the word "Holodomor" by morphemes (quill / conjoint word / quill): hunger / o / mop /

                Construction of a word by composition: kopeck [hunger] + concatenated glac [o] + kopeck [mop)

                List of morphs: 1) hunger - kopeck; 2) o - common glac; 3) mop - queen;

                where:
                - morbid death, according to Ozhegov

                - hunger - prolonged malnutrition .. Lack of food - according to Ozhegov

                Got it, no?
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                A number of researchers (conscientious researchers, not hohloklikush and homegrown Russophobes) consider the epidemic to be the cause of most deaths fever combined with damage to grain stocks fungal disease character

                But what about the "best health care" and "the best business executives" who have not been able to collect or save the harvest, or remove the epidemics?
                And yes, cannibalism was it from a fever?
                WHY did they not ask the world for help, WHAT right did they have not to do this, since the mind itself was not enough to prevent it?

                Russophobes have no answer ...

                Let me remind the fungus that BEFORE your would-be "business executives" the people and the state have successfully coped with all this since the end of the PAST century
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 09: 06
                  +2
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  where:
                  - morbid death, according to Ozhegov
                  - hunger - prolonged malnutrition .. Lack of food - according to Ozhegov
                  Got it, no?
                  And this word is non-Russian, constructed by the Ukronatsiks thrown in by American Russophobes and used by the Olgovichs.

                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Let me remind the fungus that BEFORE your would-be "business executives" the people and the state have successfully coped with all this since the end of the PAST century
                  Silly lies, the definition of "tsar-hunger" was not invented by the Bolsheviks and not under the Bolsheviks

                  If we take into account that it is necessary to include in the total losses the non-Orthodox population that was not included in Pobedonostsev's statistics (in any case, not only Orthodox died), then the result will be somewhat different. According to the census of 1897, 125 people lived in Russia, non-Orthodox of them - 640% - 021 people. Accurate data on the number of "foreigners" for 30.7-38. we do not have. Taking the mortality background of Orthodox Christians as the general one, 571 will be (rounded off) 468%, which means that with "foreigners" 1891% = 1892.
                  That is, the supermortality rate for relatively prosperous years is 1.
                  And this figure is incomplete, since only baptized people who can be recognized as Orthodox were taken into account in church books. That is, unbaptized children were not included in Pobedonostsev's statistics. The mortality rate of children under 1 year old during this period was monstrous: 1891. - 27,2; 1892 - 30,7 per 100 births


                  Quote: Olgovich
                  But what about the "best health care" and "the best business executives" who have not been able to collect or save the harvest, or remove the epidemics?
                  Even taking into account all the unfavorable factors, supermortality in the worst years of the USSR is comparable to that in the heyday of Nika-2, it is scary to imagine human losses, if this happened under Nika-2 with no health care and simply shameful attitude of the authorities towards the peasantry.

                  Quote: Olgovich
                  And yes, cannibalism was it from a fever?
                  Cannibalism was on the territory of Ukraine, unlike Russia, thanks to the tsars for the science, they were not used to constant hunger strikes.

                  WHY did they not ask the world for help, WHAT right did they have not to do this, since the mind itself was not enough to prevent it?
                  Why did landowners and second-hand dealers spit on the embargo of the tsarist government that finally came to its senses, and continued to export bread past those who perished from hunger, and who was punished for this ?!
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 28 May 2021 09: 53
                    -4
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    And the word is non-Russian, designed by the Ukronatsiks thrown in by American Russophobes and is used by the Olgovichs.

                    you have already chewed both the composition and the rule and the meaning, but all the same, like in a tank lol
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Silly lies, the definition of "tsar-hunger" was not invented by the Bolsheviks and not under the Bolsheviks

                    liars-ignoramuses: with the king-hunger 19 century (moreover, most of cholera) 15 (times less than with your hunger 30x 20 century
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Even taking into account all the unfavorable factors, supermortality in the worst years of the USSR is comparable to that in the heyday of Nika-2, it is scary to imagine human losses, if this happened under Nika-2 with no health care and simply shameful attitude of the authorities towards the peasantry.

                    under the Emperor, there was NEVER cannibalism and corpse-eating with starvation - this is just a FACT, and in Russia this simply could not happen, because the state CARED about NON-Hunger
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Cannibalism was on the territory of Ukraine, unlike Russia, thanks to the tsars for the science, they were not used to constant hunger strikes.

                    ignoramus, read documents across the Volga region, etc.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Why did landowners and second-hand dealers spit on the embargo of the tsarist government that finally came to its senses, and continued to export bread past those who perished from hunger, and who was punished for this ?!

                    it was in 1932-33-46-47, and in 1892 there was bread, but could not be delivered due to lack of roads

                    Once again, a simple question: WHY did they not ask the world for help, WHAT right had not to do this, since the mind itself was not enough to prevent?
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 10: 39
                      +1
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      And the word is non-Russian, designed by the Ukronatsiks thrown in by American Russophobes and is used by the Olgovichs.
                      you have already chewed both the composition and the rule and the meaning, but all the same, like in a tank
                      The fact that the word is new, though a little older than Tiktoker or Liberast or Demschiz, Olgych does not care, for him the main thing is that it can be disassembled according to the rules, so what? This does not bother the Ukrainian officials.

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      liars-ignoramuses: under the king-famine of the 19th century (and most of it from cholera), 15 times less than during your famine of the 30s of the 20th century
                      The deceitful Olgych, the analysis of the numbers "King of Hunger" has already been, and the numbers are here:
                      That is, the supermortality rate for relatively prosperous years is 1.
                      And this figure is incomplete, since only baptized people who can be recognized as Orthodox were taken into account in church books. That is, unbaptized children were not included in Pobedonostsev's statistics. The mortality rate of children under 1 year old during this period was monstrous: 1891. - 27,2; 1892 - 30,7 per 100 births


                      Quote: Olgovich
                      under the Emperor, there was NEVER cannibalism and corpse-eating with starvation - this is just a FACT, and in Russia this simply could not happen, because the state CARED about NON-Hunger
                      It's just amazing Olgych lied to such insanity: under the Emperor, there was NEVER cannibalism and corpse eating with starvation - it's just a FACT

                      Quote: Olgovich
                      it was in 1932-33-46-47, and in 1892 there was bread, but could not be delivered due to lack of roads
                      Oh what a poor liar,

                      In the spring of 1891, Aleksey Yermolov, director of the department of unreported fees, drew up a note to the Minister of Finance Ivan Vyshnegradsky, in which he warned of the threat of famine. The government audited grocery stores. The results were frightening: in 50 provinces they were filled by 30% of the norm, and in 16 regions, where the harvest was the lowest, by 14%.
                      However, Vyshnegradskiy said: "We will not eat ourselves, but we will take them out." Grain export continued throughout the summer months. Russia sold almost 3,5 million tons of bread that year.
                      When it became clear that the situation was really critical, the government ordered a ban on grain exports. But the ban lasted only ten months: large landowners and businessmen, who had already bought grain for export abroad, were indignant, and the authorities followed their lead.
                      The following year, when famine was already raging in the empire, the Russians sold even more grain to Europe - 6,6 million tons.


                      famous agronomist and publicist Alexander Nikolaevich Engelhardt:
                      “When last year everyone was jubilant, rejoicing that there was a poor harvest abroad, that the demand for bread was high, that prices were growing, that the export was increasing, some of the men were not happy, they looked askance at sending bread to the Germans ...

                      ... We send wheat, good clean rye abroad, to the Germans, who will not eat any rubbish. We burn the best, pure rye for wine, and the most bad rye, with fluff, fire, sivets and all the waste obtained when cleaning rye for distilleries - this is what a man eats. But not only does the peasant eat the worst bread, he is still malnourished. If there is enough bread in the villages, they eat three times; it has become derogatory in bread, the breads are short - they eat twice, they lean more on vermilion, potatoes, hemp seed is added to the bread. Of course, the stomach is full, but bad food makes people lose weight, get sick, the guys grow tighter, just like it happens with badly kept cattle ...

                      Do the children of the Russian farmer have the kind of food they need? No, no and NO. Children eat worse than calves from a host with good livestock. The mortality of children is much greater than the mortality of calves, and if the owner of a good cattle had mortality of calves as high as that of a man, then it would be impossible to manage. Do we want to compete with the Americans when our children don’t have white bread even in their nipples? If mothers ate better, if our wheat, which the German eats, remained at home, then the children would grow up better and there would be no such mortality, all these typhus, scarlet fever, diphtheria would not rage. Selling our wheat to a German, we sell our blood, i.e. peasant children. "



                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Once again, a simple question: WHY did they not ask the world for help, WHAT right did they have not to do this, since the mind itself was not enough to prevent it?
                      Let Olgych bring the same requests for peace from the tsarist government.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 29 May 2021 10: 50
                        -3
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        about that the word is new, though a little older than Tiktoker or Liberast or Demshiza

                        the word RUSSIAN, which is PROVED to you
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The deceitful Olgych, the analysis of the numbers "King of Hunger" has already been, and the numbers are here:
                        That is, the supermortality rate for relatively prosperous years is 1.

                        deceitful ignoramus 2U roll up these "analyzes" into a tube for yourself, yes, and learn to memorize:
                        - the founder of Russian demography, academician S.A. Novoselsky - 350 thousands deaths in excess of normal mortality in the period 1891-1893

                        - even Soviet the deceitful demographer B.TS. Urlanis, speaking about the famine of 1892, calls: 500 thousand.

                        of which, according to BME
                        In 1892, cholera penetrated into Russia from Mashhad to the Trans-Caspian region through the Russian-Persian border. about 620 thousand cases were registered and about 300 thousand dead.

                        Got it, no?
                        Tolstoy about the famine 1891
                        “If we understand by the word“ hunger ”such malnutrition, as a result of which diseases and death immediately follow the malnutrition of people, as, judging by the descriptions, then there was no such famine in 1891

                        With yours, they died in TWENTY(!) century MILLIONS and PEOPLE ate and corpses

                        in Russia there was no such thing.

                        Got it, what's the difference?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        However, Vyshnegradskiy said: "We ourselves will not eat, but we will take it out."

                        he NEVER said that, there WAS bread, trains for the starving with him were clogged with paths and stations - there were no ROADS.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Once again, a simple question: WHY did they not ask the world for help, WHAT right did they have not to do this, since the mind itself was not enough to prevent it?
                        Let Olgych bring the same requests for peace from the tsarist government.

                        1.Liars and ignoramuses: Russian mission in Washington in December 1891 officially APPROVED collection of aid in the United States for aid in Russia.

                        In gratitude to the Americans officially accepted / thanked and rewarded with gifts.

                        yours, in 1933, LIEED all over the world that even the poor have become ... PROVIDED people
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 31 May 2021 03: 52
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        about that the word is new, though a little older than Tiktoker or Liberast or Demshiza
                        the word RUSSIAN, which is PROVED to you
                        Proven by a quote from an online dictionary? Where is the word GOLODOMOR in the dictionaries of the Russian language?
                        New words and meanings. Dictionary-reference book on the materials of the press and literature of the 90s of the XX century. - SPb. : Dmitry Bulanin, 2014. Here in these there are, whether sooner or later and only with reference to salomor.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        the founder of Russian demography, academician S.A. Novoselsky - 350 thousand deaths in excess of the usual mortality in the period 1891-1893
                        Olgych's level as it is, not only is a person elected professor of sanitary and demographic statistics at the Central Statistical Committee's statistical courses in 1907, in principle, can no longer be a founder, he also hasn’t written 350 thousand nonsense in three years. And the fact that Olgych from all sorts of deceitful articles pulls numbers, so it is Olgych!

                        In the work of 1923, academician-demographer Novoselsky (S.A. Novoselsky. The impact of war on the natural movement of the population. Proceedings of the Commission for the investigation of the sanitary consequences of war, 1914-1920 M., 1923, p. 117) already during the Soviet era, when Tsarist Russia was certainly not favored, data on victims of the famine of 1892 - 350 people.


                        https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01009031249#?page=60

                        Not a word about 1891. and so in everything!

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Let Olgych bring the same requests for peace from the tsarist government.

                        1. to liars and ignoramuses: the Russian mission in Washington in December 1891 officially APPROVED the collection of aid in the United States for aid in Russia.
                        What debbilism, "confuse" gratitude in fact, with a request for help, purely Olgych.

                        Well, the rest, the same stupid and tattered, and utterly false. The idiocy about the shortcomings of the roads is worth it!
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 31 May 2021 10: 40
                        -2
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Proven by a quote from an online dictionary?

                        learn what is complex words in Russian and how they are formed .:
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex

                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words- pestilence and hunger... Got it, didn't it?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Olgych's level as it is, not only is a person, since 1907, elected professor of sanitary and demographic statistics at the Statistical courses of the Central Statistical Committee, in principle, can no longer be a founder,

                        Losers level 2U as it is: article demography:
                        Domestic demography during this period is associated with names S. A. Novoselsky, V. V. Paevsky, O. A. Kvitkina, S. T. Strumilina, M. V. Ptukhi. S. A. Tomilina
                        -n
                        Novoselsky - in the FIRST place.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        , so also 350 thousand nonsense for THREE years did not write.

                        victims a-c are not given to know that the main victims of hunger 1891-1893 were exactly in 1892 g
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What debbilism, "confuse" thanks in fact, with a request for help, purely Olgych.

                        for non-encompassing Two-Tartners ONCE AGAIN:
                        Russian mission in Washington in December 1891 OFFICIALLY APPROVED collection Well and the rest of the aid in the United States for aid in Russia.

                        and only AFTER that they began to collect help.

                        Those. in the 19th century the WHOLE world and Russia, her community knew about the crop failure and took measures to save people.

                        And in in the 20 century in 1931-33, when people were already massively eating people -neither the world nor the society of the USSR knew anything about this and could not do anything in principle.

                        Got it, no? No.

                        Well, the rest is at the Two-Workshop-
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        , the same stupid and tattered, and utterly deceitful. The idiocy about the shortcomings of the roads is worth it!
                        lol
                      4. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 1 June 2021 11: 38
                        -3
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        learn what compound words in Russian are and how they are formed .:
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex
                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words - pestilence and hunger. Got it, didn't it?
                        Derrmoznatok (a compound word with two roots) of the Russian language Olgych can give an example of the use of the word golodomor in the dictionaries of the Russian language before 1980? No, because this word was invented by the Ukrobanders around these years, and the Anglophile mats screechingly prove its Russian originality.


                        This is how backward one needs to be, although what to expect from an anti-Soviet, and therefore a Russophobe, in order not to understand the meaning of the word FOUNDER.
                        Founder, creator of any doctrine or direction, any scientific school


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        founder of Russian demography Academician S.A. Novoselsky

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Losers level 2U as it is: article demography:
                        Domestic demography in this period associated with the names of S. A. Novoselsky, V. V. Paevsky, O. A. Kvitkin, S. T. Strumilin, M. V. Ptukhi. S. A. Tomilina
                        Novoselsky - in the FIRST place.

                        Only a degenerate person can consider a leading specialist to be the founder, well, or a dermatologist of the Russian language. laughing

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        victims a-c are not given to know that the main victims of the famine of 1891-1893 were in 1892
                        Does the Anglophile sycophant divide the victims of hunger into basic and non-basic?
                        By the way, what about the lies about Novoselsky's figures? I don't see any reaction to the link and scan.


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        for non-encompassing Two-Tartners ONCE AGAIN:
                        The Russian mission in Washington in December 1891 OFFICIALLY APPROVED the collection and the rest of the aid in the United States for aid in Russia.
                        Wow, it is so impudent to substitute concepts, although this is Olgych, a victim of passion for the Tsarubatyushka and small Britain,

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Once again, a simple question: WHY did they not ask the world for help, WHAT right did they have not to do this, since the mind itself was not enough to prevent it?
                        Once again, where are the requests of the tsarist government for help against hunger ?!
                        Debbil, of course, can "confuse" PERMISSION for help of completely strangers with a REQUEST for help, but sane people who are friends with logic do not confuse such things.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Those. in the 19th century, the WHOLE world and Russia, its society knew about crop failure and took measures to save people.
                        But not from the Russian government, it, like the Anglo-American bedding, substituted the words hunger for bad harvest.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        And in the 20th century in 1931-33, when people were already massively eating people, neither the world nor the society of the USSR knew anything about this and could not do anything in principle.
                        It goes without saying that it was better with the little tsar, so the doctors confirm.

                        Report to the joint meeting of the Society of Russian Physicians, the Society of Pediatricians in St. Petersburg and the Statistical Department of the Imperially approved Russian Society for the Preservation of Public Health, March 22, 1901, in the hall of the N.I. Pirogov Museum,
                        D.A. Sokolov and V.I. Grebenshchikov


                        The huge mortality rate in Russia in comparison with other European countries is due to the almost exclusively prohibitively high mortality rate of children, dropping it, we would have for adults almost the same figures as for Western Europe. In view of this, I will allow myself to act as a defender of the interests of children and ask the meeting to jointly find out the reasons for their plague and come up with possible measures to reduce it.
                        Above, we saw that it is mainly the smallest of children who die, and a particularly terrible mortality occurs before the age of 1 year, and in some areas of Russia this mortality reaches such figures that out of 1000 born children, much less than half of the children born live to a year, and the rest (for example, in the Karachay district of the Okhansk district of the Perm province - 60%) die during this first year of life. If we add to this the mortality of older children, 1-5 years old, then from 5-10 years old and from 10-15 years old, we will see that out of 1000 born children, a very small number of children will survive to 15 years old, and this number in many places in Russia does not exceed one quarter of births.
                      5. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 2 June 2021 07: 18
                        -3
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Derrmoa connoisseur (compound word with two roots) of the Russian language Olgych can give an example

                        For a lover of it to learn the RULES Russian language THIRD TIME:
                        learn what compound words in Russian are and how they are formed .:
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex

                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words- pestilence and hunger
                        ... Got it, didn't it?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Only degenerate can consider a leading specialist as the founder, well, or a dermatologist of the Russian language.

                        This reasoning
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        a degenerate or a dermatologist of the Russian language
                        lol And society thinks differently.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Does the Anglophile sycophant divide the victims of hunger into basic and non-basic?

                        of course: in 1932-33, 7 million people died, but died of hunger in the "society of creation" and in 1930,36,37, 46,47
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Once again, where are the requests of the tsarist government for help against hunger ?!
                        Debbil, of course, can "confuse" PERMISSION for help of completely strangers with a REQUEST for help, but sane people who are friends with logic do not confuse such things.

                        just
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Debbil

                        does not know that in 1891 in official GOVERNMENT BULLETIN state
                        The "Special Committee for Assisting the Population of Provinces Affected by Crop Failure" appealed for help to EVERYONE with an appeal all to take part in the fight against disaster, both through donations and personal participation
                        Hack it on your forehead, dunno.

                        And show me such an appeal for help from the USSR in 1932, when people have already begun to eat
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Of course, with the little princess it was better

                        Of course, it is at times better (they did not eat people, as in the current state), so the NKVD confirms:
                        Village Dolzhanskaya - 22 / II group H **** ate the corpse of the dead sister's owl

                        In the same village D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothers ate the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.

                        St. Novo-Scherbinovskaya. In the 3rd collective farm brigade, wife E *** hacked to death and "ate her 3-year-old child,
                        A girl’s corpse was found in the apartment with her legs cut off and boiled meat was found.

                        Got it, not ?.
                      6. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 2 June 2021 12: 03
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        A lover of it to learn the RULES of the Russian language THIRD TIME:
                        learn what compound words in Russian are and how they are formed .:
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex
                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words - pestilence and hunger
                        ... Got it, didn't it?


                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex
                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words - expert and dermo. laughing This is obedience to the rules of the Russian language of the word dermatologist unambiguously indicates its primordially Russian ancient origin and this word is found in all the dictionaries of the Russian language published before 1980 right after the word Holodomor \


                        Will the direct question reach Ol'gych, otherwise doubts about his mental consistency arise!
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Dermnozatok (a compound word with two roots) of the Russian language Olgych can lead an example of the use of the word golodomor in the dictionaries of the Russian language before 1980?



                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Only a degenerate person can consider a leading specialist to be the founder, well, or a dermatologist of the Russian language.
                        This reasoning
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        a degenerate or a dermatologist of the Russian language
                        lol But society thinks differently
                        Let the poor Anglophile indicate which of the society considers the concepts of FOUNDER and LEADING SPECIALIST to be equivalent! In addition to society, in a single head of a very literate Russophobic Anglo-lizoblyud.


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The "Special Committee for Assistance to the Population of Provinces Affected by Crop Failure" appealed for help to ALL with an appeal to everyone to take part in the fight against the disaster, both by donations and personal participation
                        Is this announcement considered a call for help ?!

                        Of course, Olgych can consider not such a divine grace, but such people like Count VN Lamsdorf: “The tone taken in the higher spheres in relation to the scourge of hunger proves that they are completely unaware of the situation, and, in fact, they do not at all sympathize with either the unfortunate people trying to come to their aid " did not think so.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        of course: in 1932-33, 7 million people died, but died of hunger in the "society of creation" and in 1930,36,37, 46,47
                        The falsity of the numbers at 11-7 -5 and so on. millions of dead have already been dismantled, but Olgych does not give a damn about that. What to take from the wretched.
                        As modern studies show, systematic hunger strikes in Russia at that time were largely associated with the powerful fiscal pressure of the state. In 1891-1915, there were ten large-scale outbreaks of famine, albeit inferior in number of victims to the events of 1891... At the same time, in no case was the crop failure total - for example, in 1891 the western provinces and the non-chernozem provinces of Central Russia gave an unexpectedly good harvest. The problem was that the peasants from the starving provinces did not have the savings to buy this grain - all the surplus went to pay taxes and redemption payments.


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        And show me such an appeal for help from the USSR in 1932, when people have already begun to eat


                        there is also documentary evidence. In the book of II Chigirin "The myth and truth about the" Stalinist Holodomor ". On the Ukrainian tragedy in 1932-1933 ”, a large number of telegrams are presented, clearly proving how the central union authorities sent funds and food to the starving regions (primarily to the Ukrainian SSR and the North Caucasus). Below are some of these telegrams.

                        Note. The telegrams below are stored in the RGASPI (Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History), in brackets are the details (storage unit, case number and sheets)

                        (item xr. 12, fol. 149). p. 58/1 of May 25, 1932.
                        About sowing in Ukraine.
                        In view of the critical situation with sowing in Ukraine, to propose to a group of comrades - Yakovlev, Mikoyan, Markevich, Odintsov, headed by Comrade Molotov to leave for Ukraine today and, together with the Central Committee of the CP (b) U, take all measures to maximize the deployment of the sowing campaign.

                        (item xr. 12, fol. 153). p. 47 of 1.V.1932.
                        About the import of bread from Persia
                        (Comrades Rozengolts, Chernov, Kissin)
                        a) To confirm categorically the decision of the Politburo on the obligatory import of 3 million poods of grain from Persia by July 1.
                        b) Offer Kissin to leave for Baku, without advertising his departure, to organize the business of buying bread.

                        (item 12, sheet 152). p. 61/15 of 5.VI.1932.
                        About the delivery of bread to Ukraine.
                        To increase the plan for the delivery of grain to Ukraine in excess of the previously approved 6,5 m. [50] p. [51] by 1,6 m. due to export from Central Asia.

                        (item 13, sheet 30). p. 11 of 1.VIII. 1932.
                        About Persia.
                        Not object to the sale of military-style airplanes, saddles and military boots to the Persian government.

                        (item collection 13, fol. 47). 64/37 dated 23.X.1932.
                        On the use of wheat.
                        In order to save the consumption of wheat, the Central Committee decides:
                        a) The reduction in the export plan of grain crops of the 1932 harvest by 15 million poods shall be applied entirely to wheat.
                      7. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 2 June 2021 13: 33
                        -2
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex.
                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words - an expert and dermo

                        didn’t get it ....

                        Fourth time for
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        rmo
                        : learn what compound words are in Russian and how they are formed .:
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex

                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words - pestilence and hunger

                        Got it, no?
                        :
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Let the poor Anglophile indicate which of the society considers the concepts FOUNDER

                        for the THIRD time I propose to read the article about DEMOGRAPHY, where the surname PROFESSOR, DMN, ACADEMIC OF AN is listed FIRST
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Of course, Ol'gych cannot count such things

                        2Teachers lol submitted state DOCUMENT OFFICIALLY announcing the event and asking for help from EVERYONE. After him, help came from US donors.

                        and now-ON THE TABLE similar to the government in 1930,36,36,46,47, when people died of hunger and ate patal, and at 32,33 g they ate people!
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The falsity of the numbers at 11-7 -5 and so on. million dead has already been dismantled, but Olgych does not give a damn about that.

                        into your tube always away from the living comm "parsing" and there them, there! yes
                        Even your thoroughly deceitful stupid "demogav" Urlanis admitted the excess death of MILLIONS then.

                        A STATE OF RUSSIA officially gave an assessment of the victims of the board of 32-33. 7 million

                        Your deceitful idols NEVER EVER remembered these unfortunate people who died because of them from hunger and were eaten by the peasants, just as there were none, but they also cynically called them in the face PROVIDED people.
                        Is there something human about you? No.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        a large number of telegrams are given, clearly proving

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        a large number of telegrams is given, clearly

                        about the COUNTER, like wild animals trying to escape from the hungry areas of the peasants BACK to death there.

                        I ask 4 times: WHO gave your liars the RIGHT to keep silent about a wild, unprecedented catastrophe in the world, created by their inability to manage, and NOT ASK the world to save PEOPLE, since you yourself?

                        HOW, with such a cry, the report of the regional committee secretary to the Central Committee:
                        Яliterally overwhelmed daily reports and materials on cases of starvation, swelling and diseases from hunger, on corpse eating and cannibalism
                        - was it possible to be silent in the country, in the world?
                      8. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 3 June 2021 12: 04
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Fourth time for
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        rmo
                        : learn what compound words are in Russian and how they are formed .:
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex
                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words - pestilence and hunger
                        The man who stubbornly proves the impossibility of creating the word Holodomor by the Ukrainian Nazis so what's in this word two roots, and common to many Slavic languages, and does not understand the stupidity of his "argument", cannot be considered intellectually complete. It's not even funny anymore!

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        the founder of Russian demography, academician S.A. Novoselsky

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Domestic demography IN THIS PERIOD associated with the names of S. A. Novoselsky

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        for the THIRD time I propose to read the article about DEMOGRAPHY, where the surname of PROFESSOR, DMN, ACADEMIC OF AN is indicated FIRST
                        A person who stubbornly considers Novoselsky the FOUNDER of Russian demography only because his surname is indicated first, but does not see the words IN THIS PERIOD and does not understand what they mean, cannot be considered intellectually complete.


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        presented a state DOCUMENT OFFICIALLY announcing the event and asking for help from EVERYONE. After him, help came from US donors.



                        A person who has not read the ad he is fiercely advertised and who has found the missing words there cannot be considered intellectually complete.


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        and now-ON THE TABLE similar to the government in 1930,36,36,46,47, when people died of hunger and ate patal, and at 32,33 g they ate people!
                        Why explain to the intellectually defective the senselessness of seeking help from hostile states, moreover, in a state of global crisis and the senselessness of seeking help from the public of the USSR due to the lack of opportunities to help? The senselessness of addressing the world community is also obvious due to the global economic crisis. For the intellectually defective, these arguments are incomprehensible and uninteresting.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        into the tube your always completely false comm "parsing" and there them, there! yes
                        Even your thoroughly deceitful stupid "demogav" Urlanis admitted the excess death of MILLIONS then.
                        An intellectually disabled person does not see the difference between the fake 11-7-5 million "starving deaths" and 2,5 million excess deaths according to statistical studies.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        And the STATE of Russia officially gave an assessment of the victims of the reign of 32-33. 7 million
                        Only an intellectually defective and at the same time pathologically deceitful person will identify the state of Russia and a part, albeit a large one, of the State Duma deputies who have accepted this deceitful and anti-Russian assessment. Only a hater of Russia and the Russian people will consider such an assessment truthful and useful for Russia, because thereby he will consider the recognition of Russia's guilt before Poland in Katyn as truthful and useful for Russia, and will consider it useful for Russia to raise the retirement age, because the State Duma adopted everything. by a majority of votes.


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Your deceitful idols NEVER EVER remembered these unfortunate people who died because of them from hunger and were eaten by the peasants, just as there were none, but they also cynically called them in the face PROVIDED people.
                        Why analyze this stupidity of an intellectually handicapped person?


                        Quote: Olgovich
                        about the COUNTER, like wild animals trying to escape from the hungry areas of the peasants BACK to death there.
                        Why disassemble this deceitful stupidity of an intellectually handicapped person? It is enough to remember

                        According to the observations of Korolenko, a person engaged in helping starving people, in 1907, the situation in the village did not change, on the contrary, it became noticeably worse:
                        “Now (1906-7), in starving areas, fathers sell their daughters to merchants of live goods. The progress of Russian hunger is obvious. ”
                        Millions of desperate people took to the roads, fled to cities, even reaching the capitals. Crazy with hunger, people begged and stole. The corpses of those who died of hunger lay along the roads.
                        To prevent this gigantic flight of desperate people into the starving villages, troops and Cossacks were sent to prevent the peasants from leaving the village. Often they were not released at all, usually only those who had a passport were allowed to leave the village.



                        Quote: Olgovich
                        I ask 4 times: WHO gave your liars the RIGHT to keep silent about a wild, unprecedented catastrophe in the world, created by their inability to manage, and NOT ASK the world to save PEOPLE, since you yourself?


                        Why explain to the intellectually defective the senselessness of seeking help from hostile states, moreover, in a state of global crisis and the senselessness of seeking help from the public of the USSR due to the lack of opportunities to help? The senselessness of addressing the world community is also obvious due to the global economic crisis. For the intellectually defective, these arguments are incomprehensible and uninteresting.
                      9. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 3 June 2021 14: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        A person who stubbornly proves the impossibility of creating the word Holodomor by the Ukrainian Nazis by the fact that this word has two roots, moreover, common to many Slavic languages, and does not understand the stupidity of his "argument", cannot be considered intellectually complete. !

                        a person who does not understand (from the 5th time, Karl!) what is:
                        compound words in Russian and how they are formed .:
                        words with two or more roots in the morphemic composition are called complex
                        there are TWO roots of two Russian words - pestilence and hunger


                        can not
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        be considered intellectually complete.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        A man who stubbornly considers Novoselsky to be the FOUNDER of Russian demography only because his last name is listed first

                        Read the works and the titles of ACADEMICIAN - and then, maybe, it will come to why his surname was put first... Although, it is unlikely, because
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        - Vladimir_2U cannot be considered intellectually complete.
                        lol
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        A person who did not read the ad he was furiously advertising and who found the missing words there.

                        a person who does not know about the ALL-RUSSIAN MULTI-MONTHLY multifaceted activity of the OFFICIAL state body: "Special Committee for Assisting Millions of Population of Provinces Affected by Crop Failure", about the enormous work done by him to save the population - just a moral ode lol
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Why to explain to the intellectually handicapped the senselessness of seeking help from hostile states, moreover, in a state of global crisis, and the senselessness of seeking help from the public of the USSR due to the lack of opportunities to help. The pointlessness of addressing the world community is also obvious, because the cause of the global economic crisis. Intellectually handicapped these arguments are incomprehensible and uninteresting

                        moral udos simply have NO reasons and cannot be: for a more inhuman attitude towards their own, the world has not yet known

                        Write publicly in Pravda 1932-33 about this "meaninglessness" - let's see how we would have torn the senders to pieces ..

                        And yes: not their business, to decide what is meaningful and what is not, when people eat people.

                        WHAT have been shyly silent for SIXTY years about the great meanings of hiding the truth, eh?

                        Shame ...
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        An intellectually disabled person does not see the difference between the fake 11-7-5 million "starving deaths" and 2,5 million excess deaths according to statistical studies.

                        only a complete unscrupulous intellectual cripple believes those owls. so-called "research", according to which
                        mortality in 1933 was as a percentage by 1913 according to TsUNKhU data: USSR - 56,0; Germany - 74,4; England and Wales - 89,1; France - 89,3; Japan - 91,8
                        and yes: WHERE are 2,5 million hunger deaths in your newspapers, your liars' speeches, achievements over 60 years?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Only an intellectually defective and at the same time pathologically deceitful person will identify the state of Russia and a part, albeit a large one, of the deputies of the State Duma, n

                        Learn what a POPULARLY elected State Duma is and compare with that mockery instead of her, which was with the liars.

                        And she accepted an absolutely balanced truthful Statement of the Russian STATE. And the opinion of moral uvs, who still spit on the multimillion-dollar victims of hunger, denying them even MEMORY is the least that interests
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Why analyze this stupidity of an intellectually handicapped person?

                        And you cannot argue ANYTHING TO THE FACTS: the peasants who died of hunger were called PROVIDED people.
                        what is human about you?
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Why disassemble this deceitful stupidity of an intellectually handicapped person?

                        moral ladies and intellects cripples need to learn DOCUMENTS: -Directive of January 22, 1933 of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR "On the prevention of mass departures of starving peasants for food", who condemned hundreds of thousands to death
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        According to Korolenko's observations,
                        Millions of desperate people took to the roads, fled to cities, even reaching the capitals. Crazy with hunger, people begged and stole. The corpses of those who died of hunger lay along the roads.


                        give the title of Korolenko's essay with this "quote"

                        and here is his quote from The Hungry Year (1892) about Russia:
                        A handsome boy, not at all registered with us, stands looking down, and, like a wolf cub, looks on a table heaped with bread. At first I thought, judging by the clean shirt and the neat appearance of the handsome child, that he came here out of curiosity, but seeing that he was standing for a long time, all red, shy and ready to cry, I cut off a hump for him.
                        but here is what you have in the TWENTY century, from the summary of the NKVD group D ***, having remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothers: ate the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.: .
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The pointlessness of addressing the world community

                        . the second time this nonsense-for the time carrying. Has it? lol
  • ccsr
    ccsr 27 May 2021 18: 00
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    no matter how you call the facts of multimillion-dollar starvation mortality, they will not disappear. by the way, you are the last one to deny it.

    Do not wriggle - the very fact of the famine in 1932-1933. no one denies. I only refute your vile lie that it was the Bolsheviks who arranged it, because under the tsar in Russia, no less starved to death than under Stalin.
    Quote: Olgovich
    Around their Fatherland, the people rallied

    And so he shouted as he went into battle - "For the Motherland, for Stalin!" Or will you deny that too?
    Quote: Olgovich
    as well as "there were not" hundreds of thousands of executions in the year 37-38, millions of robbed and exiled peasants, millions in camps, and so on, read the Soviet newspapers and speeches of leaders.

    If now a million scoundrels who rob our country and support their families and capital abroad were collected and sent to the Gulag, I would only say thank you to Putin. What makes you think that there were no different scoundrels in our country before?
    Check out at least what happened in 1941 when the war began:
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 28 May 2021 07: 01
      -3
      Quote: ccsr
      Do not wriggle - the very fact of the famine in 1932-1933. no one denies.

      gross cynical LIE-show in owls newspapers and speeches at congresses 1932, 33-34 and later recognition of the fact of hunger and death
      Quote: ccsr
      I only refute your vile lie that it was the Bolsheviks who arranged it, because under the tsar in Russia, no less starved to death than under Stalin.

      they didn’t suit him SPECIALLY, it wasn’t, they arranged him with their absolute inability normally to manage the economy of the country and achieve goals without such a thing.

      In Russia and in the world in general - never and nowhere of a similar scale before did not have- hack it into your nose.
      Quote: ccsr
      And so he shouted as he went into battle - "For the Motherland, for Stalin!" Or will you deny that too?

      therefore EVERYONE shouted "FOR THE HOMELAND!" , and some for Stalin, many prayed to God ..

      Let me remind you, yes, the Russians fought for the Fatherland for a THOUSAND years and without any VKppbists
      Quote: ccsr
      If now a million scoundrels who rob our country and support their families and capital abroad were collected and sent to the Gulag, I would only say thank you to Putin.

      Who will define the scoundrels - the alcoholic and pederast Yezhov, who shot 640 thousand people, the dumbass Yagoda or the traitor (according to Molotov and Voroshilov) Beria?

      no, thanks.
      Quote: ccsr
      What makes you think that there were no different scoundrels in our country before?

      and you show-WHERE else, in which country in the world there were so many "scoundrels and traitors", eh?
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 28 May 2021 11: 17
        -1
        Quote: Olgovich
        gross cynical LIE-show in owls newspapers and speeches at congresses 1932, 33-34 and later recognition of the fact of hunger and death

        And why admit what happened and smear the snot - it was necessary to correct the consequences and the CPSU (b) successfully coped with this, this was discussed at the congresses.

        Quote: Olgovich
        In Russia and in the world in general - never and nowhere of a similar scale before that - hack it down on your nose.

        Propaganda lies - The Great Depression in the United States claimed no less lives, but Americans do not cry from this, unlike you.
        Quote: Olgovich
        Let me remind you, yes, the Russians fought for the Fatherland for a THOUSAND years and without any VKppbists

        Yes it was, but in 1941 there was a question of the destruction of our ethnos, which was not even in the past, if only because there were no such means of destroying people. And only the CPSU (b) was able to organize a rebuff, and not the tsarist elite, which in February 1917, at the height of the war, betrayed its Supreme Ruler.
        Quote: Olgovich
        Who will define the scoundrels - the alcoholic and pederast Yezhov, who shot 640 thousand people, the dumbass Yagoda or the traitor (according to Molotov and Voroshilov) Beria?

        If you like living under the rule of oligarchs, this is your right, but for some reason on the forum, the majority reproaches Putin.
        By the way, I did not offer to destroy them, I just wanted them to be sent to the camps as punishment for the damage caused to the Motherland, right up to the return of the stolen goods to the country.
        Quote: Olgovich
        and you show-WHERE else, in which country in the world there were so many "scoundrels and traitors", eh?

        In Germany - in 1945, millions of Germans surrendered with arms without resisting.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 29 May 2021 11: 03
          -3
          Quote: ccsr
          And why admit what happened and smear the snot - it was necessary to correct the consequences and the CPSU (b) successfully coped with this, this was discussed at the congresses.

          people are not life, hack it on the nose and have the right not only to die of hunger, but also to know the TRUTH.

          He did not allow anyone to LIE.

          So what did the thieves do if nothing ... happened?
          what are you carrying?
          Quote: ccsr
          Propaganda lies - The Great Depression in the United States claimed no less lives, but Americans do not cry from this, unlike you.

          you lie clumsy and stupid: there is NO excess mortality in the United States during the years of depression, even the propagandists didn’t write such FUCK.
          Quote: ccsr
          Yes it was, but in 1941 there was a question of the destruction of our ethnos, which was not even in the past, if only because there were no such means of destroying people. And only the CPSU (b) was able to organize a rebuff, and not the tsarist elite, which in February 1917, at the height of the war, betrayed its Supreme Ruler.

          VKPB organized the Brest disgrace, and without the desire of the people to defend the Fatherland, it could not have been able to do anything.

          Let me remind you that NOBODY stood up for VKPB, when it was needed in 1991
          Quote: ccsr
          If you like living under the rule of oligarchs, this is your right, but for some reason on the forum, the majority reproaches Putin.
          By the way, I did not offer to destroy them, I just wanted them to be sent to the camps as punishment for the damage caused to the Motherland, right up to the return of the stolen goods to the country.

          Putin put the oligarchs in check - see the hodor and the birch.

          And yes- WHO is going to identify the clients of the camps, huh?

          innocent people will be sent back to the camp
          Quote: ccsr
          In Germany - in 1945, millions of Germans surrendered with arms without resisting.

          NOBODY recognized them as such and did not call them.

          And yes, in the USSR only 41 3,5 million surrendered.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 29 May 2021 12: 12
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            people are not life, hack it on the nose and have the right not only to die of hunger, but also to know the TRUTH.

            You know a lot about the past of the USSR there, in Moldova, if even the materials that have been opened by us are not published.
            So leave your wet dreams for the naive - you personally will never go into the archives yourself, so do not shed crocodile tears.
            Quote: Olgovich
            you lie clumsy and stupid: there is NO excess mortality in the United States during the years of depression, even the propagandists didn’t write such FUCK.

            You are lying, as always, and your lies are easy to refute:
            How the economic crisis of the 1930s affected the mortality rate
            The Great Depression in the United States was accompanied by massive unemployment, which in 1933 affected 12,8 million people (24,9% of the working population). The birth rate has dropped sharply and the death rate has increased. So, compared with 1933 in 1934, the growth of infant mortality was 10,1%, and in 1936 this process covered most of the age categories in the United States. The number of suicides has increased by 5-8% compared to the dynamics of the 1920s. Census data indicate that in the 1930s, the United States lost about 8,5-10 million people.

            https://ritual.by/info/articles/smertnost-vo-vremya-velikoy-depressii-1930-kh-godov-i-mirovoy-ekonomicheskiy-krizis-2020/#:~:text=Великая%20депрессия%20в%20США%20сопровождалась,большинство%20возрастных%20категорий%20в%20США
            Quote: Olgovich
            Let me remind you that NOBODY stood up for VKPB, when it was needed in 1991

            So they are now crying that they were deceived and it is very difficult for them to live, and it is not they or their parents who are to blame, but Putin and his entourage. So let them reap the fruits of their stupidity - the CPSU (b) has nothing to do with it.

            Quote: Olgovich
            Putin put the oligarchs in check - see the hodor and the birch.

            Others have appeared - are they better for you personally?
            Quote: Olgovich
            And yes, in the USSR only 41 3,5 million surrendered.

            They surrendered, because often there was not enough weapons and ammunition, and not because they wanted to destroy the Soviet power - you cannot do without lies here either.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 29 May 2021 13: 09
              -2
              Quote: ccsr

              You know a lot about the past of the USSR there, in Moldova, if even the materials that have been opened by us are not published.

              Don't talk nonsense: everything here is Russian (learn what the Internet is) and much is open besides that.
              Quote: ccsr
              So leave your wet dreams for the naive - you personally will never go into the archives yourself, so do not shed crocodile tears.

              a lot of DOCUMENTS exposing the narvlast from the archives are opened in the Electronic Libraries.

              So leave your wet dreams of hiding the TRUTH for the mossy relics of the past
              Quote: ccsr
              https://ritual.by/info/articles/smertnost-vo-vremya-velikoy-depressii-1930-kh-godov-i-mirovoy-ekonomicheskiy-krizis-2020/#:~:text=Великая%20депрессия%20в%20США%20сопровождалась,большинство%20возрастных%20категорий%20в%20США

              roll up this LIEUCE agitation WITHOUT the original source into a tube (it's a shame to refer to something like that) and contact the archive US government statistics over the years: Vladimir 2U I showed it in the discussion and CONVINCED him that the death rate was NOT excessive, there was a slight drop in the birth rate.
              ask him, but I'm too lazy to start a wateryag again
              Quote: ccsr
              So they are now crying that they were deceived and it is very difficult for them to live, and it is not they or their parents who are to blame, but Putin and his entourage. So let them reap the fruits of their stupidity - the CPSU (b) has nothing to do with it.

              Thieves with everything to do with it, because only they led the country.

              And according to coupons for women's panties, (this is the result of the work of the thieves), no one cries
              Quote: ccsr
              Others have appeared - are they better for you personally?

              ?!
              Quote: ccsr
              They surrendered, because often there was not enough weapons and ammunition, and not because they wanted to destroy the Soviet power - you cannot do without lies here either.

              there were many reasons. and where is the lie-present, liar
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 29 May 2021 17: 48
                -1
                Quote: Olgovich
                and refer to the archival US government statistics for those years:

                So they keep silent about the Holodomor in the United States, because this would break the mold for the American man in the street - they did not even imagine that you were so naive, or rather illiterate. By the way, since you refer to the Internet, you can easily find an article about the famine in the United States on VO.
                Quote: Olgovich
                And according to coupons for women's panties, (this is the result of the work of the thieves), no one cries

                You seem to be a fetishist with us, you probably loved to smell them, so you are offended that they were sold a little. I have not seen any problems with women's panties - on the contrary, I know that even German women sometimes asked to bring them warm woolen panties from the USSR.
                Quote: Olgovich
                ... and where is the lie-present, liar

                Yes, everything that you write is half a lie, and besides me, other authors have pointed this out to you. So it's a pity to take the time to drive you around your inventions - there are too many of them, and they are stupid.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 30 May 2021 06: 36
                  -2
                  Quote: ccsr
                  So they hushed up Holodomor in the USA, because it will break the template for the American man in the street

                  prove, liar, this is a VOICE statement: there is NO evidence in official statistics mass starvation mortality and they are not in the newspapers, nor in the police reports, nor in the testimony of witnesses, ANYWHERE. Except the nonsense ... 2008 of the fool Borisov. By the way, he refers specifically to US STATISTICS, which you ... deny lol
                  didn’t even imagine that
                  Quote: ccsr
                  you are so naive, or rather illiterate

                  Quote: ccsr
                  By the way, since you refer to the Internet, you can easily find an article about the famine in the USA on VO.

                  so there was a famine in the USA ... lol

                  Well, you have arguments
                  Quote: ccsr
                  You are probably a fetishist with us, probably to sniff they were loved, so you are offended that they were sold a little.

                  did not even imagine that such a thing was possible, but you, with your obviously practical experience and knowledge of the subject, broke through, day
                  But the final peak of your "achievements" -
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Yes, everything you write is half a lie,

                  those. the liar could not present my "lie". Ch.t.d.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  So it's a pity to take the time to drive you around your inventions - there are too many of them, and they are stupid.

                  just a liar, um. lol untenable lol
                2. ccsr
                  ccsr 30 May 2021 10: 36
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  in the official statistics there is NO evidence of mass starvation mortality

                  There is no Holodomor in the Soviet official statistics, so you are a liar if you think that the Americans are not lying.

                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Except for the nonsense ... 2008 of the fool Borisov.

                  On VO they write about it differently from how you state it:
                  As a basis for the arguments presented in his analytical article, Borisov used statistical data from the official US department, considering the dynamics of the country's population, statistics on fertility and mortality, migration and emigration flows from 1931 to 1940. According to the arithmetic calculations, he came to the conclusion that, given the unchanged demographic trends, the US population in 1940 should have been about 140 million people. In fact, it was equal to 133 to millions, taking into account changes in the dynamics of migration. That is, by the end of 1940, more than seven million people disappeared. And there is no explanation of the authorities of this circumstance.
                  .... Borisov's opponents do not deny that serious problems existed in the US, of course. The decline of the market, which was caused by unrestrained monetary policy, initial non-intervention, and then the illiterate rude intrusion of the state into unstable economic processes, caused a rapid increase in the number of unemployed. According to the data of that period, in some large cities the share of the unemployed of the entire working-age population reached fifty and even eighty percent!

                  So it is not known who is lying more - you or Borisov, who assessed the dynamics of US population growth over the years.
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  But the final peak of your "achievements" -

                  So these coupons were introduced when the CPSU was removed from power - you don't really know our history either, although you are a major specialist in women's shorts.
                3. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 30 May 2021 12: 17
                  -2
                  Quote: ccsr
                  There is no Holodomor in the Soviet official statistics, so you are a liar if you think that the Americans are not lying.

                  How is it that there are no owls statistics on deaths, ignoramus?

                  The fact that they did not show it to those who were considered life does not mean that it was not (albeit deceitful, flawed and incomplete):
                  - TSGANKH USSR. F. 1562. op. 20, units xp. 41.
                  - Andreev E.M., Darskiy L.E., Kharkov T.L. Population of the Soviet Union. 1922-1991. M., 1993,
                  - Andreev E.M., Darskiy L.E., Kharkov T.L. Demographic history of Russia: 1927-1959. M., 1998,
                  etc..

                  And the Americans have NOTHING to hide, everything is open: www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1942-03.pdf
                  and the "golodoyor" "opened" there tebil Borisov in ... 2008 g before him no one had ever heard of this in America itself.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Borisov used the statistical data of the official department of the United States as the basis for the arguments presented in his analytical article, considering population dynamics population of the country, statistics on fertility and mortality, migration and emigration flows in the period from 1931 to 1940. According to the arithmetic calculations carried out, he came to the conclusion that, with the demographic trends unchanged, the population of the United States in 1940 should have

                  He refers to the same:: www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1942-03.pdf and there is NO excess mortality 1929-40 NO at all its stupid calculated "dynamics" ....2008 abouthe can roll up into a tube and yes.lol laughing
                  Quote: ccsr
                  So these coupons were introduced when the CPSU was removed from power - you don't really know our history either,

                  yeah, for 8 months they "brought down" the economy, and before that there were plenty of cowards and food. lol
                  food coupons were introduced in many regions from the beginning to the middle 1980h, ignorant.

                  and yes, who ruled the country, well, tell me wink
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 27 May 2021 16: 33
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    In total, in the peaceful 1932-33, from 4 to 7 million "creators" died from a fierce death of starvation, and no one in the "society of creation, brotherhood and help to their neighbor" even helped them not to die, moreover, even the damned capitalist world was not asked to save them, how he saved millions in 1922-23
    False figures are thrown by the deceitful Olgovich and even examples from the archives are cited by him, only the mind is not enough that under the little tsar, the peasants died of hunger and they also did not really help, but at the same time no factories, factories, schools, or institutes were built, at least there were no comparable quantities, but the funds were simply drunken by the nobility in Paris.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 28 May 2021 07: 18
      -4
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      False numbers are thrown by the false Olgovich

      you will refute them, you ignoramus.
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      only the mind is not enough that under the little princess the peasants died of hunger and did not help them much either, but at the same time neither factories, nor factories, nor schools, nor institutes were built, in at least some comparable quantities were not


      NEVER in Russia and in the world nothing like the Bolshevik 1921-22,32, 33-XNUMX was not before and in the slightest, hack to death on your forehead.
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      but at the same time, no factories, no factories, no schools, no institutes were built, in at least some comparable quantities were not

      ignoramuses who hated the history of their country should know that the number of schools, as in Russia (130 thousand), the Bolsheviks were able to restore only 10 years after the VOR, i.e. 10 thousand new schools were not introduced in 40 years and millions became literate much later.

      Hundreds of thousands of teachers they did not bring from Switzerland - they WERE here, already raised and raised by Russia, as well as amazing imperial universities and the Academy of Sciences with their scientists and teachers, and it was in them that ALL the main scientists and designers of the USSR were trained and educated.

      Chop it on your nose.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 07: 20
        +1
        Quote: Olgovich
        They did not bring hundreds of thousands of teachers from Switzerland - they WERE here, already brought up and raised by Russia, like the amazing imperial universities and the Academy of Sciences with their scientists and teachers, and it was in them that ALL the main scientists and designers of the USSR were trained and educated.

        What a Russophobic insanity!
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 28 May 2021 09: 54
          -3
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Quote: Olgovich
          They did not bring hundreds of thousands of teachers from Switzerland - they WERE here, already brought up and raised by Russia, like the amazing imperial universities and the Academy of Sciences with their scientists and teachers, and it was in them that ALL the main scientists and designers of the USSR were trained and educated.

          What a Russophobic insanity!

          these are FACTS, Russophobes 2U on the hack
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 10: 00
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            these are FACTS, Russophobes 2U on the hack

            Hundreds of thousands of teachers per 100 population the initial schools, a significant part of which clerical, this is a very sluggish indicator that has become fatal for the tsar's father, no matter what anti-Sovietists (and therefore true Russophobes) broadcast there.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 27 May 2021 07: 57
    +4
    It is strange why such articles are published in the History section, and not in the Opinions section. Everything starts with a paragraph, and then some speculations go about Brest-2 and the military coup, there are facts to back it up with documents, but there is nothing to write.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 27 May 2021 08: 00
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    The dash of the 1930s looks fantastic!
    that's for sure, there was no such fiction either in Africa, nowhere:
    The case of the death of family members of a Red Army soldier from starvation. 1933 In the family living in the village of Formosovo, the Shiroko-Bueraksky village council, the father, mother, brother and sister died of hunger. After the death of their parents, the children were forced to feed on carrion and the body of their own mother. F. R-461. Op. 4.D. 33.L. 31,32.

    On March 5, 33, public catering on the collective farm ceased, and *** fell ill, could not go to work, and therefore a hunger strike began.
    The family began to use the most suitable substitute, the father killed the dog, and after the death of his father, horse, human stool, fish scales, various rotten vegetables and grass were consumed.
    Remaining wife *** - Anna turned to the Board of the collective farm to give her the easiest job, but was refused, thus the hope of getting a renewed public catering was lost.
    On April 27, Anna died on the stove, the corpse lay uncleaned for three days, and on April 29, a 6-year-old boy Mikhail died near this corpse, and both corpses were buried on April 30.
    Daughter Natalia 18 years old / graduated from the seven-year school / cut off the breast of the mother's corpse, cooked it and ate **********

    In total, in the peaceful 1932-33, from 4 to 7 million "creators" died from a fierce death of starvation, and no one in the "society of creation, brotherhood and help to their neighbor" even helped them not to die, moreover, even the damned capitalist world was not asked to save them, how he saved millions in 1922-23

    NONE of the "equal, but leading creators" did not give a hint about them and did not erect a monument to them.
    But what about these equal but leading creators lived themselves at this time? Ate swan, crowded in basements and attics, like "ordinary creators equal to them"?

    Yeah: in 1931, a huge complex of 505 apartments was completed in Moscow: spacious apartments with ceilings 3,7 m with floor-to-ceiling windows, a freight elevator for collecting waste from kitchens, with rooms for servants, with a 1st floor for servants and guards, a passlift with a servant, with its own kindergarten, a Lechsanupra clinic, a laundry room, a club, a canteen, a shop and a distributor, with cool crystal fountains, tennis courts, a shooting gallery and huge blooming flower beds, playgrounds and paths, skating rinks watched by dozens of gardeners and janitors. Such is the little communist.

    In the society of "equality" a modest 18-year-old student named Svetlana (Satanka) Iosifovna received a luxurious apartment on the occasion of her marriage to a classmate - this is how equal co-students lived!

    From the workers' letters to the truth:
    “The line for bread is taken at 8 pm and, without leaving, they wait until 9 am, the rainy weather does not disperse it. Workers, female workers and office workers standing in line send greetings to the Soviet government: “This is how the Soviet government fed bread.

    It is not necessary to enumerate everything that is said against the Soviet power, for there is an infinite number of them and all in different formulations, but in conclusion, only mate is heard " (Bezhitsa, Molotkov).

    In the town of Melenki, classes start at 2 o'clock in the morning, and in the daytime people cannot walk and drive, only queues. Small children are sent to the queue, and they are crushed there by adults and so every day they bring children to the hospital half-dead. " (city of Melenki, Vladimir province, candidate of the Komsomol A. Chernov).

    fantastic, yes ...


    Where do you get all this from? .... Melenki ... near the places where my ancestors lived, solid sand, but there was no hunger. When I asked my grandmother - Did you have a hunger? She replied -No. We worked, planted, cleaned. Besides fishing, berries, mushrooms. And when they joined the collective farm, they did not slaughter their cattle. And so beggars constantly came around the village and they all spoke of Saratov.
    The Holodomor was selective, the Russians did not suffer, the Ukrainians died out. Even in the fertile Krasnodar Territory, with its black soil, there was a famine. But it was due to the fact that local leaders also missed that moment when joining a collective farm, namely the mentality of the local semi-Ukrainian population - why would I take my cow to the collective farm, let a neighbor lead, and I will slaughter mine and sell meat on the market. And the neighbor turned out to be just as "smart", and even buried the newly harvested grain from socialization. Well, then I caught glitches, the grain turned out to be with ergot, which, at a certain humidity and temperature, turns into an excellent hallucinogen, lysergic acid. After eating hidden grains a *** fell ill, could not go to work and therefore began a hunger strike.
    The family began to use the most suitable substitute, the father killed the dog, and after the death of his father, they began to eat horse, human feces, fish scales, various rotten vegetables and grass ...

    So there were scales, but where did the fish go, there was even feces, although they ate nothing.
    .... Small children are sent to the queue, and they are being crushed there by adults and so every day they bring children to the hospital half-dead ..
    They know, but they send ... either it's sadists, or it's a lie.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 27 May 2021 09: 19
      +3
      Quote: Konnick
      The Holodomor was selective, the Russians did not suffer, the Ukrainians died out

      Well, yes ... purely Ukrainians! Urals, southern Siberia, Kazakhstan to help you!
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 27 May 2021 09: 21
        -2
        Well, yes ... purely Ukrainians! Urals, southern Siberia, Kazakhstan to help you!



        Namely, there were many immigrants with the Ukrainian mentality, dispossessed immigrants, "smart people".
        1. Serg65
          Serg65 27 May 2021 11: 31
          +1
          Quote: Konnick
          Namely, there were many immigrants with a Ukrainian mentality.

          what Do you itch on Ukrainians?
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 27 May 2021 16: 45
            +1
            Do you itch on Ukrainians?

            No, I do not like cunning people, at the expense of others to get into heaven. It's just that they have such a nature, they decided to deceive everyone, but it did not work out. Seriously though, in other places the slaughter of cattle before joining the collective farm was strictly suppressed, but not in Ukraine. Remember "Virgin Land" - there is a partial description of this problem using the example of chickens.
    2. BAI
      BAI 27 May 2021 09: 54
      +1
      Where do you get all this from? ...

      From here:


    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 27 May 2021 11: 00
      -6
      Quote: Konnick
      Where do you get all this from?

      from DOCUMENTS of that era
      Quote: Konnick
      The Holodomor was selective, the Russians did not suffer, the Ukrainians died out.

      this is how much one should not love one's country so as not to know its history THAT?

      Russian victims are millions: even in Ukraine, famine struck, first of all, on the Russian New Russia, and the Black Earth Region, the North Caucasus and the Volga Region, etc., were starving.

      And yes, do not forget that according to your official commanders of those years there were no victims of hunger at all, but were "wealthy peasants"
      Quote: Konnick
      about the mentality of the local semi-Ukrainian population


      yeah, you got the wrong people-stupid, careless and stupid, Yes.

      Quote: Konnick
      The family began to use the most suitable substitute, the father killed the dog, and after the death of his father, they began to eat horse, human feces, fish scales, various rotten vegetables and grass ...
      So there were scales, but where did the fish go, there was even feces, although they ate nothing.

      the scales remain from the days when there was fish and food.

      according to the documents, they ate patal from dug cattle burial grounds, corpses from cemeteries, procured corpses (put them on ice), killed relatives:
      CA FSB RF. F. 2. Op. 11.D. 42.L. 74, 75, 76, 77, 78.
      .
      CHERNYAKHOVSKY DISTRICT. In the village of Andreev, poor Zh *** died due to malnutrition. 11-year-old boy - with a knife he opened the belly of the deceased father, took out the insides and prepared them to cook.
      VINNYTSIA REGION
      In the village of Pinkovka, poor collective farmer K ***, 50 years old, killed his two daughters, 7 and 9 years old, whose meat he ate for food


      There are thousands of such documents.

      And remember, THIS is in Europe and in the world in the peaceful middle of the 20th century, it was only with the Bolsheviks and only with them.

      Russia has not known this since the Middle Ages
      Quote: Konnick
      They know, but they send ... either they are sadists, or they are lies

      adults at work.

      Yeah, everyone lies, only the "creators" told the truth, February 1933:
      : We have achieved that the millions of the poor, who lived from hand to mouth before, have now become middle peasants on collective farms, have become wealthy people.

      This is a great achievement, comrades. This is such an achievement, which the world has not yet known and which has not yet been achieved by any state in the world.

      There you are practical, tactile results collective farm development, the results of the fact that the peasantry took the path of collective farms.

      that's for sure: the world such I did not know any "achievements" yet: the practical tactile results of 1933-cm above are in the archives of the FSB.
    4. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 27 May 2021 16: 40
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      Where do you get all this from?

      This is Olgych, a man who did more than all of us put together to discredit monarchism by half-witted attacks on Soviet Russia! laughing
  • BAI
    BAI 27 May 2021 08: 33
    +8
    The delusional and illogical presentation of the author is perfectly illustrated by this phrase:
    Thank God the Bolsheviks broke all these plans

    Where is God and where are the Bolsheviks? What's the connection?
  • Old Michael
    Old Michael 27 May 2021 08: 46
    +3
    Wonderful!
    Recently in Opinions there was a school essay about Hero Milashenkov. There, the sixth grader was able to formulate his understanding of the origins of the feat of the Soviet people in just two paragraphs. In my opinion, it turned out very true and accurate.
    And then Samsonov threw up a whole bodyag ...
    Yes, it is necessary to remind people of the feat of their ancestors, but not in graphomaniac outpourings.
  • smaug78
    smaug78 27 May 2021 08: 52
    +2
    Battle of two technomagic civilizations
    Oh this style ... Samsonov is immediately recognizable laughing
  • Konnick
    Konnick 27 May 2021 09: 01
    -2
    The dash of the 1930s looks fantastic!


    I completely agree. The standard of living has risen sharply. They lived well before the war, only the old people said that something had become too good, as if there were no war ...

    Even Guderian wrote in his memoirs
    It was possible to speak about the mood that prevailed among the Russian population. by the way, to judge by the statements of an old tsarist general with whom I had a conversation in the Horde in those days. He said: “If you had come 20 years ago, we would have greeted you with great enthusiasm. It's too late now. We just now began to come to life again, and you came and threw us back 20 years, so we must start all over again. Now we are fighting for Russia, and in this we are all united. "
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 27 May 2021 10: 48
      -2
      Quote: Konnick
      I had to talk in those days in the Horde

      Where and when Guderian, and where and when the Horde.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 27 May 2021 10: 49
        +3
        Where and when Guderian, and where and when the Horde

        I copied, pasted and did not check from the Militerra website, of course in Orel .. I would have said a little earlier.
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 27 May 2021 10: 56
          0
          Someone who went there, obviously scanned it from somewhere and ran it through OCR (I don't know how it is in Russian). And for OCR letters л и д very similar, especially if the bottom horizontal line is worn out. Postnul without checking, and you, accordingly, took from there.
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 27 May 2021 11: 00
            +3
            Of course I had to put it
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 27 May 2021 11: 06
              0
              Yes, OCR is joking, coupled with a text editor. "Horde" is a legitimate word, therefore it is not highlighted. I got it myself in a similar way.
        2. andrew42
          andrew42 28 May 2021 18: 13
          0
          And it turned out well, about the Horde. Further: and then Batu Khan woke up, got up and said, - (to the German general) Roll to the west, to the last sea! Sha! I said everything. "
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 27 May 2021 11: 27
      -5
      Quote: Konnick

      I completely agree. The standard of living has risen sharply.

      nonsense: there are still people in 1937 dying of hunger:
      Special message of the NKVD of the Kuibyshev region. "On food difficulties." April 19, 1937 at

      Food difficulties are felt in 65 districts of the region (out of 110), including 18 districts of the MASSR (out of 23). IN
      In total, 14 deaths due to hunger took place in 62 districts during the winter. In a number of collective farms of Teleginsky, Staro-Shaigovsky, Bezenchuksky, Klyavlinsky, Tagaysky, Penza and other districts (52 districts in total) swelling of collective farmers from malnutrition was noted. surrogates are observed in the overwhelming majority of collective farms in districts, experiencing food difficulties. In Krasno-Slobodsky, Kamensky and other districts, eating fell.

      In the Staro-Kulatkinsky district, a crowd of more than 200 people attacked a bread store. The crowd broke down the doors to the store and began to grab loaves of bread, of which there were no more than 150 kg. At the same time, a pregnant woman was hushed up, whose premature birth immediately began.

      In with. The grave of the Neverkinsky district in order to disperse the queue standing at the bakery, the deputy director of the MTS for political affairs Khusnutdinov suggested that the guard of the MTS Karbik fire a rifle, which he did. Those standing in line did not leave immediately. In a number of cases, there are manifestations of acute discontent, scandals and fights in the lines for bread.

      In many areas, poverty is on the rise, especially among children who drop out of school
      ... in the village Otrada kolkhoz woman A.P. Zakharova committed suicide. with two newborn children. The circumstances of the suicide are as follows: Zakharova, being abandoned by her husband, for several days with her 13-year-old daughter lived in an unheated hut, without bread and other food. In early January, she gave birth to two twins. Being in an extremely serious painful condition, Zakharova invited her daughter to light the straw in the oven, which was the last one to do. The next day, the relatives of Zakharova who came two corpses of newborns and the corpse of Zakharova herself were found in the furnace
      hunger, queues and shortages of everything in the 1930s were permanent - read the Istmat and other electronic document libraries.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 27 May 2021 16: 48
        +3
        Quote: Olgovich
        Those standing in line did not leave immediately. In a number of cases, there are manifestations of acute discontent, scandals and fights in the queues for bread.

        In many areas, poverty is on the rise, especially among children who drop out of school
        ... in the village Otrada kolkhoz woman A.P. Zakharova committed suicide. with two newborn children. The circumstances of the suicide are as follows: Zakharova, being abandoned by her husband, for several days with her 13-year-old daughter lived in an unheated hut, without bread and other food.
        Another indicator of Olgych's stupid deceit, because right after the words In many areas, poverty is on the rise, especially among children who drop out of school
        followed by the following words:
        In many areas, poverty is on the rise, especially among children who drop out of school. There is a massive delivery of bonds and loans on security. In the Novo-Malyklinsky region, despite food difficulties, the grain trade is poorly organized. Loaded bread is not completely exported by the cooperatives. Tyugalbuginskoe general store did not buy 10 tons of flour, allegedly due to lack of money, while at the same time the general store was delivered to the village. Tyugalbugu for 6 thousand rubles. vodka, although a few days ago there was imported another 10 thousand rubles by State Spirit. vodka.

        Cooperative organizations of the Svishchevsky district clothes for bread for sale are chosen by 50-70%, while long queues are created and the population is forced to go for bread in the village. Bekovo, Saratov region for 40 km.
        Probably people like Olgych were in charge of bread in these areas.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 28 May 2021 07: 24
          -6
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Another indicator of Olgych's stupid deceit, because right after the words In many areas there is an increase in begging, especially among children who drop out of school

          so what's the lie, liar?

          Were dying in 1937 d, and this data is only for one area, DESSAY man, from hunger, children begging and dropping out of school, wild queues, crush, etc.

          Let me remind you that socialism, allegedly, has already been "built
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 28 May 2021 08: 19
            +2
            Quote: Olgovich
            so what's the lie, liar?

            Yes, the fact is, you are a Russophobic henchman, that by throwing out whole chunks of documents, you deliberately distort, like other anti-Soviet Russophobes, the overall picture:

            The verification established that acute food difficulties are not so much a consequence of the crop failure in 1936, how much criminal inactivity and sluggishness of rural and regional organizations. There are facts of squandering and perversion in the distribution of food loans issued by the state. For example, in the Litvinovsky district, in 5 collective farms, where acute food difficulties are felt, 40 centners of a food loan have been spent on fodder for livestock.
            On the collective farm. Maxim Gorky, Privolzhsky district, deputy. Chairman Zhogov from the received food loan (26 c) I arbitrarily gave 82 kg to the accountant, 150 kg to the chairman of the auditing commission, and took 175 kg of bread for himself.
            The food supply released by the state to the Svishchevsky District began to be distributed only on January 18 of this year, while the order for this bread was received by Rick on January 2.
            The chairman of the B.-Kornevsky village council of the same district, Voronin, and the chairman of the Svetly Put collective farm, Svetlov, did not spend 1936 centners of a food loan in December 10, while the collective farm has 10 families with signs of swelling.
            Due to the extremely heartless and criminal attitude of the chairman of the N.-Archinsky village council of the Telegin district Kulikov, a member of the CPSU (b), in early January of this year. in the village Otrada kolkhoz woman A.P. Zakharova committed suicide. with two newborn children. The circumstances of the suicide are as follows: Zakharova, being abandoned by her husband, for several days with her 13-year-old daughter
            And this information from the reports of the UNKVD directly shows that it was the monsters on the ground, and not the Soviet government, who brought them to such a point, the Soviet government punished such monsters that its haters would not lament about the innocent murdered, in 37 years, but the famine in tsarist times, which carried away much more lives, (only those who are completely mournful in conscience and reason can deny this) were not reflected in any way either in the reports or in the reports of either the police or the secret police, because the tsarist power didn’t give a damn about the peasantry.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 28 May 2021 09: 59
              -4
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              monsters on the ground, and not the Soviet government brought to this, the Soviet government punished such monsters,


              Dozens of people were dying of hunger, schoolchildren POWEDED - and this happened not only in that region - read the same in Mordovia, Bashkiria, etc. - this is the result of the actions of the AUTHORITY of the monsters
    3. smaug78
      smaug78 27 May 2021 13: 19
      -2
      The standard of living has risen sharply. We live well before the war
      How dramatically this is, will you please with the tsifir?
  • Alexander Kopychev
    Alexander Kopychev 27 May 2021 09: 02
    0
    The evil fate was deceived again. With a dazzling dream, a great and beautiful idea, an incendiary word, and somewhere with "iron and blood" they again mobilized the country. And in an unprecedentedly short time, they built a great power with a powerful industry, developed agriculture, advanced science and education, and powerful armed forces. Literally in an instant they put an end to illiteracy, banditry, unemployment and homeless children, trained millions of specialists in science and technology, education and culture.

    All this is quite feasible today !!!
    There would be a desire, opportunities above the roof ...
    But so far stability ...
    Stability of what ???
  • Serg65
    Serg65 27 May 2021 09: 26
    +4
    Why did the USSR defeated fascist Germany? What I have not read, both because the Soviet people are the most powerful in the world, and because the Soviet system is the most correct, and because God helped the Soviet Union, and because the people in spite of the authorities won, but I never saw a clear answer .. .so why the Soviet Union, unlike a dozen European countries, defeated the best army in Europe ?????
    To call an article nonsense, this is how Samsonov's articles are all like that, the author sees the world around him that way!
  • Sam SeM
    Sam SeM 27 May 2021 10: 00
    0
    strong article provided by the site
  • Sychev Vitalii
    Sychev Vitalii 27 May 2021 10: 31
    +1
    Firstly, not Russians, but ideologically savvy Soviet (I think that an army with an ideology like "Orthodoxy, autocracy, nationality" would definitely not have withstood the blitzkrieg), and, secondly, yes, frosty winter prevented, otherwise Moscow would definitely have been taken ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 27 May 2021 11: 09
      -2
      ... yes, the frosty winter interfered, otherwise Moscow would definitely have been taken.


      You forgot about the dirt and the fact that Goth's mouse gnawed the wires in the tanks. laughing
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 27 May 2021 12: 30
        +5
        Goth's mice gnawed the wires in the tanks


        Well, this is near Stalingrad, on Czech 38t there were delicious wires for our patriotic mice laughing
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 27 May 2021 12: 39
          +2
          Precisely, at Stalingrad. laughing
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 27 May 2021 12: 18
      +3
      Quote: Sychev Vitalii
      yes, the frosty winter interfered, otherwise Moscow would definitely have been taken.

      It also started snowing in winter, quite unexpectedly. And Moscow was originally planned to be taken at the end (28th, if I am not mistaken) of July. Then it was postponed to 25 August. Exactly.
  • north 2
    north 2 27 May 2021 10: 42
    +1
    oG
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    The USSR was much ahead of its time, looked like an alien from a beautiful far away.
    "The beautiful is far away, do not be cruel to me" ...

    Yes, the beautiful far away becomes cruel when now the person who remembers this beautiful far away understands that besides the grub, decency, honor and conscience should also exist. Well, isn't it cruel that in order to get drunk sausages had to destroy the country? And here the whole difference between the Stalinist communists-Bolsheviks and the post-Stalinist Khrushchev-Brezhnev-Gorbachev communists emerges. In twenty years, the Stalinists created the Red Army from scratch, which won both the Civil War and the Second World War, in twenty years they created a powerful industry, and after the Second World War they quickly eliminated food ration cards and fed the country. At the end of Stalin's time, shops were packed with groceries. But then Stalin died, the Khrushchev communists seized power, Beria was killed and everything went head over heels. And those Khrushchev communists rolled the country in the baton to the Brezhnev communists right into the hands of the Gorbachev communists. But no matter how scary it turned out later, they didn't let them eat the sausages and they took away their conscience with honor. but because he exchanged this beautiful for sausage, but he lost both conscience and honor and country. Here, even if it has eaten, it will howl like a wolf ...
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 27 May 2021 10: 59
    +1
    Instead of at least some analysts, another propaganda campaign. If it were, as the author says, the USSR would simply have collapsed even before Hitler. The USSR was a pariah in the world, diplomatic relations with the United States were established only in 1933. Relations with Great Britain and France are strained (Curzon's ultimatum), relations with the small Entente are very strained, and suddenly, in 1929, mega-deliveries of the most modern technologies began in the USSR, tens of thousands of Western specialists and not only from Germany come and build us a new industry and a military industry also. Former peasants could not themselves build Dneproges, Stalingrad Tractor, Rostov Combine Plant, Magnitka with shovels and wheelbarrows. Former brothers, sailors do not launch the most modern American rolling mills, they do not make airships and airplanes, they cannot organize a chemical industry from scratch. Why did the bourgeoisie give the go-ahead for such deliveries of the best technologies for a hostile state? We were taught, organized, and this before Adik Hitler came to power. No enthusiasm of the Komsomol members with wheelbarrows and shovels, no GULAG could have done even a small part of those transformations in 12 years. The country was given the opportunity to rise, yes, for money, for raw materials, but they did. Military construction proceeded at a rapid pace only in the second five-year plan and was built up in the third. And then again - the impulse, the defeat of the fifth column. I was especially pleased with the term "Russian communists". For such an opus, the author would have come immediately. Again splint, again political propaganda.
    1. depressant
      depressant 27 May 2021 13: 33
      +4
      Dear colleague Petrik66 hi
      You are analyzing the rise of the USSR economy in the 30s, out of touch with historical realities. In 1930, intensive gold mining was established in the USSR. Gold was also bought from the population for the opportunity to buy goods by import in Torgsin's stores. Partially for the sake of accumulating gold reserves, the NEP was terminated, and the gold jewelry accumulated by the new rich flowed into Torgsin. Meanwhile, a severe economic crisis was raging in the West, enterprises went bankrupt one after another - both small and large, and Western industrialists were happy to respond to the proposal of the Soviet government to build in the USSR everything you listed. Because for the construction of enterprises by the hands of Soviet workers, for their training, advanced training of engineering personnel, for the launch and commissioning of factories, factories, etc., the Country of Soviets paid with full gold, and the enterprises became its property, giving the people a huge number of qualified jobs and thus significantly improving not only the material, but also the social position of the Soviet person. Great prospects opened up for the people - for the whole people, and not for a small handful of the elite. The Soviet people saw, understood and appreciated it. That is why people stood up in the Great Patriotic War not only for their land, but also for the government headed by Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin and for the ideology of the communist era.
      By the way, after the end of the Second World War, the gold reserve of the USSR amounted to 2500 tons. After the collapse of the USSR, the bins of the Motherland were practically empty.
      1. Petrik66
        Petrik66 27 May 2021 13: 52
        +3
        The question is not about a raging crisis. The transfer of such a huge array of technologies, equipment, knowledge could not be carried out without the approval of governments.
        Wikipedia (for all my skepticism about this source) says:
        Engineers were invited from abroad, many well-known companies, such as Siemens-Schuckertwerke AG and General Electric, were involved in the work and supplied modern equipment, a significant part of the models of equipment produced in those years at Soviet factories were copies or modifications of foreign analogues (for example, the Fordson tractor, assembled at the Stalingrad Tractor Plant).

        In February 1930, between Amtorg and the firm of the American architect Albert Kahn Albert Kahn, Inc. An agreement was signed, according to which Kahn's firm became the main consultant to the Soviet government on industrial construction and received a package of orders for the construction of industrial enterprises worth $ 2 billion (about $ 250 billion in today's prices). This company provided the construction of more than 500 industrial facilities in the USSR [42] [43] [44].

        A branch of Albert Kahn, Inc. was opened in Moscow. under the name "Gosproektstroy" (English) Russian .. Its leader was Moritz Kahn, brother of the head of the company. It employed 25 leading American engineers and about 2,5 thousand Soviet employees. At that time, it was the largest architectural bureau in the world. Over the three years of its existence, "Gosproektstroy" has passed through it more than 4 thousand Soviet architects, engineers and technicians who studied the American experience. The Central Bureau of Heavy Engineering (CBTM), a branch of the German company Demag, also operated in Moscow.

        Albert Kahn's firm acted as a coordinator between the Soviet customer and hundreds of Western companies supplying equipment and advising on the construction of individual projects. Thus, the technological project of the Nizhny Novgorod Automobile Plant was carried out by Ford, the construction project by the American company Austin Motor Company. The construction of the 1st State Bearing Plant in Moscow (GPZ-1), which was designed by Kana, was carried out with the technical assistance of the Italian company RIV.

        The Stalingrad Tractor Plant, built according to Kahn's design in 1930, was originally built in the United States, and then was dismantled, transported to the USSR and assembled under the supervision of American engineers. It was equipped with equipment from more than 80 American engineering companies and several German firms.

        American hydroelectric builder Hugh Cooper became the main consultant for the construction of Dneproges, for which hydro turbines were purchased from General Electric and Newport News Shipbuilding [45].

        The Magnitogorsk Iron and Steel Works was designed by the American firm Arthur G. McKee and Co., which also oversaw its construction. The standard blast furnace for this and all other industrialization smelters was developed by the Chicago-based Freyn Engineering Co. [46]

        American specialist Fred Koch took an active part in the development of Soviet petrochemistry. During the first five-year plan, Winkler-Koch built fifteen heavy oil cracking plants in the USSR.

        Russia wanted to buy out Opel in the 2000s, but they didn’t give it, but then ...... Why would the bourgeoisie create such a competitor for themselves, if they were so mortally (as our propaganda campaigns wrote) afraid of him? Well, where is the logic? Yes, we paid, stole, negotiated - any state in a desperate situation behaved, but we were GIVEN the opportunity to do this. I did not even think to dispute the message that our grandfathers paid for everything and built everything, the question is about something else. We can now buy any technology without much straining for the budget, but no one sells anything to us!
        1. depressant
          depressant 27 May 2021 18: 25
          +3
          You see what the matter ...
          The government of any capitalist country is always on the side of the industrialists. One must think that during the devastating crisis of the 30s, industrialists demanded from the governments of their countries: "Do something!" But the only thing that government bodies could do at that time was not to interfere, not to prevent their capitalists from looking for new markets for their products, as well as selling their technological capabilities and even helping them in this. For this significantly removed the internal political tension in these countries.
          From this point of view, let's take a look at the current situation in our country.
          Our President, V.V. Putin, handing out aid to the poor. That 5 tons. Rubles, then 10 tons. You think, out of pity and sympathy? Or out of fear of a food riot? Not at all. Due to unwillingness, it will lose the support of the owners of large and small retail chains, as well as individual stores, that is, a certain layer of capitalists. As recently as the spring of the year before last, the traders were already grumbling that revenue was falling, they were already arranging a deficit and a rise in prices. In large cities, it may not have looked so painful. In small towns and villages, the population was greatly suppressed by what was happening. But not the grumbling of the population, but the grumbling of the hucksters, that is, some of those whom the president relies on as having a real opportunity to create insurmountable internal political obstacles in his work, and forced the population to give handouts during the epidemic, which, by the way, did not disappear.
          Another example, closer to what you are talking about.
          The price of a kilogram packet of sugar at the beginning of the 20th, covid year, cost 27 rubles in the "Five" of my village. Now there are 60 rubles for 900 everywhere. It all started with the fact that sugar producers, and after them agricultural producers in the south of Russia, made a statement, they say, we are bankrupt, and to raise prices - the population takes little at these prices. And then there were handouts. But government handouts to the population, somehow solving the problem of merchants, did not solve the problem of producers at all. And then a law comes out, according to which producers receive the right to massive export of food products abroad, leaving there a significant share of the profit, which is no longer subject to Russian tax. Which is what they do. There is a shortage of products, and traders are steadily raising prices. Small handouts to the population follow again, but handouts are no longer enough, the population's discontent is growing with the relative contentment of producers and traders. Nevertheless, the government took serious measures to support traders and large agricultural producers (owners of agricultural holdings), because it relies on them, because this is capitalism. This government is capitalist, not socialist. It supported the capitalists and will support them. Whoever is in power - Putin or anyone else.
          That is why, in the ten-year severe crisis of the 30s, all capitalist governments supported any actions of those of whom they were protégés - the capitalists. Therefore, they supported the sale of technologies in the USSR.
          But it was a nuclear-free world. Do you feel the difference?
  • depressant
    depressant 27 May 2021 11: 13
    +6
    Notes on read comments.

    The opponents of the USSR get bogged down in details, not noticing the main thing.
    Yes, during the Second World War, the Communist Party played a decisive role in organizing the defense of the state, because the war was unleashed by the West not only against the people, but also against a new ideology that has no precedent in the history of mankind. The role of the CPSU was also important during the period of restoration of the national economy.
    But then the command-administrative method of running the economy could become a brake on its development. Stalin saw this and wanted to separate the economy from ideology - in the same way as the church is separated from the state, not allowing the latter to interfere in the relations of economic entities.
    What was the consequence? Fright. The fright of the party elite, which had to give up its command, managerial role to economists and lawyers, focusing only on monitoring compliance with all standards, state laws and on the ideological education of the masses. But not only fear and awareness of the need to change oneself for new requirements, to retrain. Relations with foreign countries have already been established through banks in the framework of accepting assistance, providing it, as well as trade. For the unscrupulous part of the party elite, this opened up, albeit distant, but extremely tempting prospects for personal enrichment.
    The understanding of some that one cannot alter oneself to fit the realities proposed by Stalin, as well as the secret vicious dreams of others, led to a general consolidation of the party elite in the issue of the gradual curtailment of the USSR project.
    But it was impossible to quickly curtail such a project in front of the generation that won the Great Patriotic War, imbued with communist ideology, - it would have ended in a general uprising and overthrow of the traitors, as well as, possibly, an invasion from outside. The threat persisted!
    Therefore, the curtailment of the country as the bearer of the communist idea took on a gradual character. At first, within the framework of relative freedom from ideological blinders, a new generation of rather well-fed, carefree, self-confident was raised, let it be flapped with tongues, beckoned with foreign clothes, which - well, at least burst! - for some reason it was impossible to produce in the USSR, they ruined the nascent microelectronic industry, otherwise computers will start counting and, not only will they replace party and economic bureaucrats, they will also bring their thieves' affairs to clean water. And the increase in theft and the withdrawal of money abroad to secret accounts has already become irreversible.
    And when the generation, fueled by the possibility, albeit in the kitchens, but chattering anti-Sovietism, supported by the well-established idea of ​​the sluggishness of the USSR industry in the production of jeans, then this generation, by no means hungry, was plunged into hunger at the end of the 80s. This hunger of the Russian generation, capable of looking critically at the economic activities of the Central Committee of the CPSU, supported by the "growth of national self-awareness" of the outskirts, but simply by the double nationalism, combined with full confidence, of the entire population of the country that it is impossible to live like this any longer, that is, a combination of several reasons, and led to the disintegration of the country, therefore, to the victory of the party elite, which was afraid of Stalin's plans.

    This is so, just a note and understanding of who is now in power in our country.
    1. Terran ghost
      Terran ghost 27 May 2021 19: 00
      0
      when a generation fueled by opportunity, albeit in kitchens, but chatter anti-Soviet

      Hmm .. as they say, before us is another moral insignificance, denying human rights and freedoms and thirsting for repression. Of course, imagining that he himself will not be affected by these repressions, only his neighbor.
      And oh yeah. "Cherry on the cake". In your words, the ideology of the All-Union Communist Party of the Soviet Union (Bolsheviks) -KPSS seems so insignificant to you that it can only be held by gross coercion and violence. With a whip, a stick and prisons. Because otherwise, in your own words, this ideology, even with a de facto monopoly in the media, an extensive network of Komsomol and party cells throughout the country, is capable (again, in your words) to collapse with a roar from kitchen conversations and anecdotes.
      ruined the nascent microelectronic industry

      But the declaration of cybernetics as a "bourgeois pseudoscience" is a matter of the times of Stalin's rule, yes ...
  • isv000
    isv000 27 May 2021 12: 01
    +3
    We stood on our own land, that's why we survived ... soldier
  • orcinus
    orcinus 27 May 2021 12: 29
    +6
    After the text about "technomagy", I, as a doctor, think that the consultation of a "narrow specialist" is needed. Dear editors, you either do not read the fiction of individual "authors" at all, or you work according to the scheme of the now popular social media. networks - "the main thing is not the content of the material, but the audience coverage and views." Why on the same resource with the same Shpakovsky and Timokhin they grieve this "this" ?!
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 27 May 2021 13: 22
      +3
      Quote: orcinus
      Dear editors, you either do not read the fiction of individual "authors" at all

      As far as we know, Mr. Samsonov is the administrator of the "History" section.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 27 May 2021 12: 36
    -3
    Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
    Quote: Sychev Vitalii
    yes, the frosty winter interfered, otherwise Moscow would definitely have been taken.

    It also started snowing in winter, quite unexpectedly. And Moscow was originally planned to be taken at the end (28th, if I am not mistaken) of July. Then it was postponed to 25 August. Exactly.


    The weather played a role. All blitzkrieg tactics were based on interaction with aviation. And near Moscow there was bad weather, as well as near Tula and Kalinin. That's where the Germans weren't lucky. Moscow itself had no reason to fear aviation, Moscow was covered by the most powerful air defense air group.
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 27 May 2021 14: 50
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      And near Moscow there was bad weather, as well as near Tula and Kalinin.

      All the time? And the tanks and artillery were helpless without aviation?
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 27 May 2021 15: 10
        -2
        All the time? And the tanks and artillery were helpless without aviation?

        For the Germans, 15 percent of the total number of aviation were reconnaissance aircraft, they looked for targets, directed attack aircraft, adjusted artillery fire, this was especially important in counter-battery combat. The Germans usually tried not to use tanks without destroying the ATO by aviation or artillery. Without thorough reconnaissance, the Wehrmacht did not like to fight. In addition, the weather did not allow bringing up heavy artillery to Moscow, muddy roads, and then heavy snowfalls. Then, at the beginning of 42, the weather already prevented us from routing Army Group Center. But at the beginning of 42, shell hunger also played a role.
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 27 May 2021 17: 42
          +1
          Between the muddy roads and heavy snowfalls, there were light frosts that froze the mud. Why the Germans were able to advance in November. But that didn't help them. The main thing is different - why did they not take Moscow as planned - even before the leaves fell?
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 27 May 2021 17: 59
            -1
            The main thing is different - why did they not take Moscow as planned - even before the leaves fell?


            So they also had a turn to Kiev, reoriented themselves and made a large boiler near Kiev. Hitler was afraid that the forces of the Southwestern Front would strike at the flank of the "center" group and sent Guderian's tank group to Lokhvitsy. And the postponed Operation Typhoon began on September 30th. Three days of good weather allowed the Germans to use aviation, assembled from almost all fronts, which left the main forces of the Western and Reserve Fronts motionless, simply paralyzing any movement and defeated communications centers and headquarters, preventing the personnel divisions from leaving the forests, they remained in an "ambush" ... And in the direction of the main attack there were lonely militia divisions, which were simply swept away by German tanks. Three days and two fronts were gone. And at this time, our aviation tried to stop Guderian's group, moving in the direction of Orel, Guderian still complained that he was left without air cover. Well, on October 6 it got colder and it started snowing ...
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 27 May 2021 18: 37
              0
              Well, why was it necessary to turn to Kiev and postpone the attack on Moscow? Moreover, the Germans turned to Kiev just at the end of August, when, according to their already adjusted plan, Moscow was supposed to fall. Why didn't this happen?
              1. Konnick
                Konnick 27 May 2021 18: 52
                -1
                Well, why was it necessary to turn to Kiev and postpone the attack on Moscow? Moreover, the Germans turned to Kiev just at the end of August, when, according to their already adjusted plan, Moscow was supposed to fall. Why didn't this happen?

                I already wrote - Hitler was afraid that a powerful group of Kirponos's troops could strike at the flank of the "Center" group aimed at Moscow. The second reason was the Crimea. It was from there that our aviation struck at the oil fields of Romania, and without the capture of Ukraine it is impossible to capture the Crimea. By the way, a meeting on this issue took place in Borisov on August 4 and Hitler burst out a phrase about Guderian - If I knew that the Russians really have such a number of tanks, which is given in your book, I probably would not start this war. The resources for the blitzkrieg were running out and Hitler realized that the war was taking on a protracted nature and Germany could no longer do without the raw materials and food resources of Ukraine, and Romanian oil was practically the main raw material for fuel production, so production had to be secured.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 28 May 2021 03: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: Konnick
                  I already wrote - Hitler was afraid that a powerful group of Kirponos's troops could strike at the flank of the "Center" group aimed at Moscow. The second reason was Crimea

                  This is true, but this is not what I am asking. If Moscow had been taken according to the plan - on 25.08.41, then no groupings near Kiev would have mattered. Moreover, according to the plan, they should not have been there. But they were there! And the plan was disrupted! why?
                  Quote: Konnick
                  If I knew that the Russians really have such a number of tanks, which is given in your book, I probably would not start this war. The resources for the blitzkrieg were running out and Hitler realized that the war was becoming protracted.

                  This is warmer. So it’s not a matter of the weather, and even if Russia had an eternal summer, the Germans would not have taken Moscow in October-December. The reasons were different.
                  1. Konnick
                    Konnick 28 May 2021 05: 36
                    -1
                    The reasons were different.

                    And one of the reasons was the weather. When one side has air supremacy, non-flying weather equalizes the capabilities of the troops. If it's warmer, then explain why the weather didn't matter in the defense of Moscow. Also explain why two days, and not one, broke into the defense of Berlin on the Seelow Heights.
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 28 May 2021 10: 03
                      0
                      Quote: Konnick
                      And one of the reasons was the weather.

                      Yes of course. Only for the Germans, the weather was a consequence of the protracted war - they were not ready for either one or the other.
                      Quote: Konnick
                      When one side has air supremacy, non-flying weather equalizes the capabilities of the troops

                      Provided that non-flying weather lasts a long time without interruption. And when ours began to attack, they had superiority in aviation, so ours and the Germans were on an equal footing here? That's why
                      Quote: Konnick
                      the weather did not matter in the defense of Moscow
                      ... Or rather, it mattered to everyone.
                      Quote: Konnick
                      why two days, and not one, broke into the defense of Berlin on the Seelow Heights.

                      Because the defense was strong.
                      1. Konnick
                        Konnick 28 May 2021 10: 06
                        0
                        Because the defense was strong

                        An exhaustive answer. as they say - thanks, cap
                      2. Konnick
                        Konnick 28 May 2021 10: 19
                        0
                        Provided that non-flying weather lasts a long time without interruption. And when ours began to attack, they had superiority in aviation, so ours and the Germans were on an equal footing here? That's why
                        Quote: Konnick
                        the weather did not matter in the defense of Moscow

                        You are mistaken, the weather went over to the side of the Germans. On their side were the restored railways to Vyazma, Sychevka and Rzhev, which made it possible to quickly transfer reserves to Moscow. On our side, the railways were not in working order. All the German defense at the beginning of the 42nd near Moscow was located along the railways, the so-called Rzhev-Vyazemsky ledge, see the map. And for example, during the time during which Lelyushenko's 30th army was transferred from the left flank of the Kalinin front to the right on the virgin snow, with heavy snowfalls and blizzards, in order to break through the supply corridor for the 29th army, the Germans managed to create a defensive line, and Lelyushenko was forced to throw his army to break through in parts with heavy losses and did not achieve success. Even the T-34 could not overcome the snow. The supply of the armies of the Kalinin Front was very difficult, at the same time the supply of the German formations was very efficient and there was the possibility of a quick transfer of troops. And the main goal of the counteroffensive, the liberation of Vyazma and Rzhev with the subsequent defeat of the "Center" group, was not fulfilled. The 33rd army, which was supposed to take Vyazma, and the 29th Rzhev, were defeated. We were unable to supply these armies by air, in contrast to the supply of the encircled Germans near Demyansk through the air corridor.
                      3. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 28 May 2021 11: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Konnick
                        On our side, the railways were not in working order.

                        Yes? And how did our troops move from the same Far East?
                        Quote: Konnick
                        the weather went over to the side of the Germans

                        Yeah, when they attacked, the weather was for ours, then vice versa? Did the weather help the weak? Interesting! AND
                        Quote: Konnick
                        during heavy snowfalls and blizzards

                        Germans, it turns out, used railways and other roads without hindrance? laughing
                      4. Konnick
                        Konnick 28 May 2021 11: 30
                        0
                        Yes? And how did our troops move from the same Far East?

                        To Moscow, yes, and then?
                        We only got used to asking questions, such as trolling.
                      5. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 28 May 2021 15: 57
                        -1
                        So, what is next? The front approached Moscow unequally close, which means that they continued to act in different ways.
            2. Serg65
              Serg65 28 May 2021 09: 17
              +1
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              The reasons were different

              I read your dialogue, the question is the same as mine .... why? Igor, what do you think about this?
              1. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 28 May 2021 10: 07
                +1
                What is there to think, Sergei?
                "The colossus-Russia, which was consciously preparing for war, despite all the difficulties inherent in countries with a totalitarian regime, was underestimated by us. This statement can be extended to all economic and organizational aspects, to the means of communication and, in particular, to the purely military capabilities of the Russians ". (Halder). "Underestimated" is very little said. And plus to this - the Germans assessed exactly the opposite of the Soviet moral and political factor.
                1. Serg65
                  Serg65 28 May 2021 11: 46
                  +2
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  the colossus-Russia, who deliberately prepared for war, despite all the difficulties inherent in countries with a totalitarian regime, was underestimated by us

                  Strange ... the strangeness is that a graduate of the Kaiser's Academy of the General Staff is speaking!
                  After all, he probably studied the theory of lightning wars K. von Clausewitz?
                  .... Russia with its campaign of 1812 testified, first of all, that a state with a large territory cannot be conquered (which, however, could have been known in advance) , secondly, that the probability of ultimate success does not in all cases decrease in accordance with the number of lost battles and lost capitals and provinces, but what exactly in the heart of his country, the defender may be the strongest when the enemy's offensive strength is already exhausted, and the defense with incredible power suddenly goes over to the offensive

                  Our look here is something else!
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Soviet moral and political factor.

                  Well, I don’t know, I would not politicize this factor ...
                2. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 28 May 2021 12: 49
                  0
                  Quote: Serg65
                  Strange ... the strangeness is that a graduate of the Kaiser's Academy of the General Staff is speaking!

                  It is even stranger that, in addition to the Germans, competent specialists from England and the United States predicted a German victory over the USSR within a matter of weeks or even days!
                3. Serg65
                  Serg65 28 May 2021 13: 17
                  +1
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  experts from England and the United States predicted the victory of the Germans over the USSR in a matter of weeks and even days!

                  With this, everything is clear, the experience of France and the whole of Western Europe, plus the ineradicable desire to do away with Soviet Russia by the hands of the Germans!
                  In my opinion, the defeat of the Germans in the summer of 41, and this is really a defeat ... starting with the elder Moltke, Germany's military operations against a stronger rival, the German headquarters were always built on the Blitzkrieg and the defeat of the enemy in the very first battles ... and the defeat was and did not happen, the Germans were drawn into protracted battles, the planned pace was disrupted and the entire German strategy went to hell, the template built for more than half a century broke down and the German generals, not accustomed to improvisation, began to rush from side to side, and, plus Hitler's great desire to steer the army. And, of course, those very large territories .... the logistics shoulder grew day by day, not to mention the fact that in every more or less large settlement, the Germans had to leave a garrison. The German approached Moscow already exhausted! Well, the result was not long in coming!
                4. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 28 May 2021 16: 01
                  -1
                  Quote: Serg65
                  With this, everything is clear,

                  What exactly is clear? Were these predictions realistic?
                  Quote: Serg65
                  the rout never happened, the Germans

                  Why didn't it happen?
                5. Serg65
                  Serg65 31 May 2021 08: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  What exactly is clear?

                  It is clear in our time!
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Why didn't it happen?

                  I'll tell you a joke ...
                  The Eastern Front, a German eye, a machine gun, there are two machine guns in the crew ... a veteran of battles on the Russian front and a young soldier just called up ... From the Russian trenches you can hear ... Forward, for the Motherland, for Stalin ... HURAH!
                  Young, you need to run!
                  Veteran, wait, fight back!
                  The attack was choked ... 10 minutes later again ... Forward, for the Motherland, for Stalin ... HURA!
                  Young, you need to run!
                  Veteran, wait, fight back!
                  The attack drowned again ... after 5 minutes from the Russian trench ...
                  Yes your mother rocker in the soul !!!!
                  Veteran now son, RUN !!!!
                  The perseverance of the embittered Soviet soldier did not allow the Germans to win the first battle and smash the Red Army! The embittered soldier did not raise his hands up, did not drop his weapon, stubbornly made his way to his own, simultaneously destroying the Germans. He went to death for the sake of his homeland! No orders, detachments, NKVED officers could stop and force a herd of cowardly rams to fight!
  • ccsr
    ccsr 28 May 2021 12: 16
    -2
    Quote: Konnick
    So they also had a turn to Kiev, reoriented themselves and made a large boiler near Kiev. Hitler was afraid that the forces of the Southwestern Front would strike at the flank of the "center" group and sent Guderian's tank group to Lokhvitsy.

    This is just one of the versions, and not entirely correct, because the reasons for the turn to Kiev were completely different - the lack of food. The Wehrmacht, after three months of the war, exhausted its food reserves and they would have nothing to feed their army, if they had not captured Ukraine, tk. there agricultural resources were much greater than in the central and northern regions of the central European part of the USSR and in other European countries.
    These plans became known long before the start of the war, which is why the turn to Kiev was associated precisely with food:
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 28 May 2021 12: 19
      -1
      I already wrote - Hitler was afraid that a powerful group of Kirponos's troops could strike at the flank of the "Center" group aimed at Moscow. The second reason was the Crimea. It was from there that our aviation struck at the oil fields of Romania, and without the capture of Ukraine it is impossible to capture the Crimea. By the way, a meeting on this issue took place in Borisov on August 4, and Hitler burst out a phrase about Guderian - If I knew that the Russians really have such a number of tanks as given in your book, I probably would not start this war. The resources for the blitzkrieg were running out and Hitler realized that the war was taking on a protracted nature and Germany could no longer do without the raw materials and food resources of Ukraine, and Romanian oil was practically the main raw material for fuel production, so production had to be secured.

      This is from a previous comment.
  • ccsr
    ccsr 27 May 2021 12: 54
    -1
    Soldiers of the underground garrison. Artist N. Ya.But, 1964

    In fact, this picture refers to the events of the summer of 1942, which depicts the soldiers of the Adzhimushkai quarries, and not to 1941. But it reflects the essence of our spirit exactly - so the author may have brought it out of place, but in general the picture does not contradict the text of the article.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 27 May 2021 14: 00
    -1
    Quote: smaug78
    The standard of living has risen sharply. We live well before the war
    How dramatically this is, will you please with the tsifir?

    Figures, I'll try. This is a fragment of my uncle's memories of my family, if you master the page, then it's already not bad


    And these were such collective farmers. I do not speak for everyone, but it was so.
  • Petrik66
    Petrik66 27 May 2021 14: 09
    0
    I read the comments, I hope that in 20 years, when those who write here go to the places of eternal hunting, the rest of Russia will breathe a sigh of relief. We are no different from the bulk: the same without appellation judgments, primitivism of arguments, denseness. tired of
  • Poteryashka
    Poteryashka 27 May 2021 15: 42
    +4
    From the first lines Dugin appeared ...
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 27 May 2021 15: 50
    0
    Russian civilization + individuals at the head of state.
  • Looking for
    Looking for 27 May 2021 16: 41
    +2
    SAMSONOV deliberately distorts the historical truth - it was not the Russians who survived. The SOVIET PEOPLE survived !!!!
  • Warhead-xnumx
    Warhead-xnumx 27 May 2021 18: 14
    0
    It was always surprising how in 1941 they were able to evacuate hundreds of factories to the east and put them into operation. You can't just bring the machines on a steam locomotive to an open field, put them in a row and say "voila, the plant is ready!" It turns out that there were already pre-prepared production sites with all communications, electricity, transport and logistics infrastructure, etc. Those. the Soviet leadership foresaw the option of a catastrophic start of the war in advance and was preparing for this option.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 27 May 2021 20: 09
      -1
      You can't just bring the machines on a steam locomotive to an open field, put them in a row and say "voila, the plant is ready!" It turns out that there were already pre-prepared production sites with all communications, electricity, transport and logistics infrastructure, etc. Those. the Soviet leadership foresaw a catastrophic start of the war in advance and was preparing for such an option.

      There was such a program and the machines did not stand in the bare steppe, it was just that many of the buildings were unfinished.
  • Gueuze Ulenspiegel
    Gueuze Ulenspiegel 27 May 2021 18: 27
    +2
    First of all, the SOVIETS survived. And then everyone else. Although the main part and lay down exactly on the RUSSIANS.
    1. Tycoon
      Tycoon 27 May 2021 19: 12
      +1
      Truth and Truth
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 27 May 2021 18: 35
    0
    "The USSR was far ahead of its time ..."
    It seems so.
  • zenion
    zenion 27 May 2021 18: 38
    +2
    It seems that the article, Thank God, was written under the wet, or dry, or prickly influence of the author, perhaps smelled.
    1. Tycoon
      Tycoon 27 May 2021 19: 11
      +1
      He not only smelled, but also put a bag on his head with glue for a moment ...
  • Tycoon
    Tycoon 27 May 2021 19: 11
    +1