Knight's "auxiliary" melee weapon. Daggers

Dick Sheldon fights with swords with Sir Brackley. A still from the 1985 Soviet film "Black Arrow". Nice movie, but a little weird ... Sword and Dick (by the way, he wears it on the right!), And other characters in the movie are worn without a scabbard, inserting a blade into a ring. There is no scabbard and the blade-breaker Sir Brackley, with a naked blade, sits in a chair even in his castle. Moreover, it is known that there were such daggers. But nothing is known about swords ... Archers of the "Black Arrow" wear on their belts ... Mongolian bows, and bows, as it should be for English arrows, in their hands. They simply will not fit into them. And all these minuses, as well as many pluses for historicity in the same film. How can this be - the mind is incomprehensible! Well, that they didn't have enough money for a scabbard?

“Arriving at his house, he took a knife and,
taking his concubine, cut her
by its members into twelve parts
and sent to all the borders of Israel. "
(Judges 19:29)

Museum collections of knightly armor and weapons. The topic of armor and edged weapons of the Tudor era aroused considerable interest among VO readers, and many spoke in favor of continuing the topic, so to speak, "auxiliary edged weapons" such as the dagger dagger. By the way, dag is nothing more than a derivative of the English dagger - "dagger", a word that is just pronounced like "dag". But here we got a little ahead of ourselves. Since it was the "Dagi" who appeared so dear to the hearts of many of our regulars, it was rather late.

But what came before them?

What, shall we say, did they finish off the commoners on the battlefield (what could be taken from them)? And the commoners, the "armed people", how did they finish off the knights, from whom they could not take a ransom according to their rank? And just today we will talk about such a weapon. And again, “our dear effigies” and artifacts from the Wallace Collection - the London museum about which (and the armor in which!) We have already talked about, the Royal Armory and (already traditionally) the Metropolitan Museum of Art - will help us to get to know him. Today we will talk about the daggers in their collections ...

Well, let's start ... with criticism. From the criticism of such a solid source as the book of Vendalen Beheim "Encyclopedia of Weapons". For years she regularly served the reader as a source of information and suddenly - bang - almost immediately outdated. That is, quite a lot has been written there about daggers - in the St. Petersburg edition of 1995 from pages 218 to 226. But we will not see either the system or the terminology adopted today on them. Everything is "heaped up". And it turns out that it is almost impossible to get any complete impression from these pages. So that story, yes, it is developing, and this development is bearing fruit.

Now you can actually talk about daggers. They are not mentioned in the Bible, only knives. They are also not always found on miniatures in manuscripts. Rather, let's say this: the dagger is depicted in the hand, but the scabbard on the belt is not visible from it.

A miniature from the "Bible of Matsievsky": "... a fierce battle, and Abner with the people of Israel was struck by the servants of David. (Second Kings 2: 11-17). For example, the active use of daggers is shown in the well-known "Bible of Matsievsky". There are many very naturalistic scenes with their use, but the scabbard is not depicted on any of the characters. Swords scabbard - yes, there is. We will not see dagger scabbards in the miniatures of this manuscript! (Pierpont Morgan Library, New York)

Now let's turn to the effigies. And ... we will see that the earliest of them do not have the slightest hint of daggers!

Perhaps the first effigy that has a dagger should be considered the German one, belonging to Gottfried von Kappenberg, who died in 1127. However, he received his ephigia only in 1300. So it reflects the attire and armament of this particular year, not earlier. And by the way, the dagger on his belt is not impressive at all! Although this allows us to assert that in 1300 he was already depicted on the effigies. Ashbach Kloster Museum, Germany

By now, in contrast to the era of Vendalen Beheim, the study of edged weapons of the Middle Ages has gone so far that we can systematize dagger samples by type and characteristic time of their use. So, it is believed that the first type of dagger, known since the beginning of the XIII century, was the quilon. Ephesus of Quilona completely repeated the hilt of the sword, that is, these daggers were, in fact, reduced in size swords. The name is believed to be associated with a characteristic crosshair and the same pommel. Most often this dagger can be seen in miniatures of the "Bible of Matsievsky", and this time is 1230-1240. But their service life was very long!

Quilon 1571-1599 Length - 335 mm; blade length - 226 mm; weight - 312 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

But, be that as it may, the next effigy, already in England, received the dagger only in 1325!

Effigia Stephen Alard, d. 1325 Buried in Winchelsea Church. On it, it is true, it is difficult to see the type of this weapon (it would be better to go from the other side!), But at least it is! Although, of course, his effigy is very informative. It clearly shows vertically quilted under-armor clothing (gambison), chain mail weaving, and surcoat folds ...

The second was the baselard dagger, known from the end of the XNUMXth century. Its name is believed to be related to the city of Basel in Switzerland. Daggers of this type had a recognizable shape, thanks to their handle: it resembled the letter "H". The blade had a diamond-shaped cross-section with two lobes.

Baselard at the end of the 333th century. The blade is straight, double-edged, with a flat rhomboid cross-section and tapering towards the point. The handle is hexagonal in cross-section, has an H-profile, half of which has been restored from the side of the pommel. The handle is divided into sections by brass washers. Two pins protrude from the top of the crosshair, possibly to secure the missing metal plate. There are finger grooves on the inside of the upper and lower cross. Length - 226 mm; blade - 107 mm; handle length - 29 mm. Blade width (max.) - 174 mm. Total weight - XNUMX g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Effigius Albrecht von Hohenloe, 1338 Buried in the church of St. Joseph in Schontale, Germany. As you can see, Albrech followed the fashion - his dagger is suspended on a chain!

Reconstruction by a contemporary artist (A. Sheps), depicting a knight in traditional attire from the mid-XNUMXth century with a baselard on his belt. True, this one is somewhat behind the fashion, or it differs in a peculiar character, since he does not wear chains, and in addition he also uses such weapons as combat weights. By the way, this is one of the figures that should have been given in a series of articles on heraldry, but better late than never

Count Palatine of the Rhine, d. in 1340. Another bazerard on the chain. Germany, Mainz City Museum

In the collection of the Wallace Collection there is, by the way, a very long baselard that looks more like a sword. Why such a length? Here's why: city magistrates used to prohibit citizens from wearing swords. But daggers were allowed. This is how the townspeople tried to get around the law!

Effigia by William de Garges, 1346 Tamerton Foliot. His dagger is broken off, but the most interesting thing is that the handle remains and allows you to determine what he was armed with ...

Since the first third of the XNUMXth century, the dagger of the beams has been spreading in Europe. And this is what Sir William de Gorgues is armed with. It differed from all the other unusual shapes by the handle and not even by the handle itself, but by its crosshair, from which it got its crude name "dagger with eggs", although in the Victorian era a more decent name was invented for it: "kidney dagger".

Bullock dagger with scabbard, knife and awl from the Wallace Collection. The work of an unknown master from Flanders or Northern Germany. Made in 1550 Materials: steel, maple, silver and copper alloy. Length: blade 26,1 cm, width: 1,9 cm.Weight: 0,25 kg. Single-edged blade, triangular section. Brand of the manufacturer, inlaid with copper alloy on the right side. The dagger forms a set with a scabbard, a small knife and an awl. The knife has a maple wood handle with a protruding silver button on the outside (undoubtedly to prevent going too deep into the scabbard), the manufacturer's stamp is also applied to the blade

It is believed that it was very popular and was used from the XNUMXth to the XNUMXth century by all segments of the population. And in Scotland, where time passed especially slowly, it persisted in the XNUMXth century.

Also ballock, possibly English, approx. 1450-1500 The blade is tetrahedral. Length: blade 35,7 cm, width: 3,8 cm.Weight: 0,25 kg. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

And he has a very beautiful handle cut through and through with a pattern ...

It is believed that the traditional Scottish dirk (remember, it was also used by General Monk, kidnapped by D'Artagnan for the restoration of King Charles II in the novel "The Viscount de Bragelon") originated precisely from the ballock, which is clearly visible if you compare their photographs.

Scottish Dirk from the Royal Armory. OK. 1720-1760 The blade is straight, single-edged, triangular in cross-section, probably made from a sword blade, with a double fuller. The solid wood grip has been roughly carved with Celtic ribbon and has projections at the crosshair with a copper alloy heart engraved on both sides. The copper alloy head is held in place by a nut screwed onto the blade shank. The original black leather scabbard, decorated with lines and curls, lacks anchorage in the scabbard. Total length 400 mm, blade length 310 mm, weight 231 g. Scabbard weight 80 g.

Peter de Grandisson, d. 1358 Buried in Hereford Cathedral. As you can see, its effigy is monitored, periodically restored, so it looks just great. And we can see the kidney dagger in her too!

This concludes our today's story. But this topic itself will certainly continue.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Undecim]

In the collection of the Wallace Collection, there is, by the way, a very long baselard that looks more like a sword. Why such a length?

Because not only long daggers were called baselards, but also short swords.

[Richard]

Greetings Victor
A very competent and valuable clarification. It's a pity the respected author himself did not consider it necessary to mention this. The long baselard in format completely replaced the sword for the owner, but was by no means considered a knightly weapon. The fact is that in those days the urban population was forbidden to carry swords, hence such an attempt to bypass local legislation. Far from being an isolated one, by the way.
a photo. Long Baselard of a Wealthy Citizen from the Wallace Collection

The blade has a lenticular section, with three lobes. In the center of the blade is the brand of the master. Note the paired holes in the guard and pommel. Perhaps they were intended to protect the fingers by installing a chain.

[Undecim]

Well, let's start ... with criticism. From criticism of such a reputable source as the book of Vendalen Beheim "Encyclopedia of Weapons"

It is still too early to send the classics to the archive. Because there are many more interesting things in their books.
In the books of the famous merchant from Prato near Florence, Francesco Datini, the famous arms historian Claude Blair discovered in a volume of 1375 a number of items of expenditure, including settlements with the armourers from Basel for “basolardi mezani con choltellino”, “daghe di basola pichole per soldi iij pezo "," chanivetti picholi di basola "," spade di basola "," choltelli di basola mezani ".
Blair concluded that Baselard-type weapons had three standard sizes - approximately 35 cm, approximately 70 cm, approximately 100 cm. This length of the weapon is largely consistent with the natural dimensions of the foot (approximately 30-35 cm), elbow or arm, "braccio" (approximately 60-70 cm), which were common in the Middle Ages.
I had an idea, and not whether some of the Basel gunsmiths made a kind of headset in the same style from the sword and dagger of the Baselards. This would confirm Blair's conclusion.
And through the catalog of the famous Swiss politician and weapon collector Carl Eugen Franz Xaver Beck, such a set was found at one of the antique auctions.

Baselard sword and dagger. XV century.
Dagger: weight 370 g, length 42,7 cm, blade 30,7 cm and blade width 4,8 cm.
Sword: weight 670g, length 81,7 cm, blade 67,7 cm and blade width 4,8 cm.
So far I have not found who made it and how this weapon got to the auction.

[Undecim]

Another photo is a general view.

[polpot]

Thank you very much, we look forward to continuing.

[kalibr]

The second part is already being written.

[novel66]

only, mind you, not on the weekend. and then again you will find hell! Thank you so much

[kalibr]

Novel! I'm not exhibiting materials. They go in order, but the editors often rearrange and choose the section themselves. This is the same lottery for me as it is for you!

[Real Pilot]

Quote: kalibr

The second part is already being written.

Vyacheslav Olegovich, thanks for the article! We are waiting for the continuation

[The leader of the Redskins]

Who is the first to thank Vyacheslav Olegovich? Then I am in the forefront!
Thank you. Although not my topic, but at least there is something to read in the evening!

[ximkim]

This is yes.
And no shooting.

[kalibr]

I'm glad you liked it. The continuation is being written. Photos are collected, so it's easy. Write. And this is becoming more and more difficult to do. What can you do: dacha. Dacha - there, there, from there. There construction, watering ... in a word, movement is life. True, in the end I have communism at home: a complete combination of physical and mental labor. I dug, wrote ... the text, watered the garden in my mind, thought over two phrases - I went and wrote it down. However, time and effort are limited!

[3x3zsave]

"Pop-pop-pop,
Will write poems. "(C)

[depressant]

And he smoothly switched from daggers for beating off longer weapons and cutting the wounded to knives for direct combat use. But for modern knife fighting, such specimens are hardly suitable.

[3x3zsave]

I'll turn on the "kid from the area" ...
What's wrong?

[depressant]

Too long and diamond-shaped. You can't train your hand with this, you need a big swing. While you are swinging, the shorter one will stick to you.

[Richard]

Since the first third of the XNUMXth century, the dagger of the beams has been spreading in Europe.

It got its name because of the phallic shape of the handle. It must be said that the attitude towards erotic symbols in the Middle Ages was much simpler than the modern one. Even outright pornography like the "Flying Dutchman" did not cause rejection. It was youthful. It was in the order of things for young men to wear such daggers in front of causal places, it was considered appropriate.
Probably the most popular and long-lived dagger of the Middle Ages. And at the same time, the first universal dagger, not purely combat. Used by all segments of the population from the 14th to the 16th century. In some places it lived up to the 17th century, for example in Scotland and Italy.
a photo. medieval daggers of beams from the Wallace collection

[Richard]

It is noteworthy that the traditional Scottish dirk originates precisely from the ballock, as can be seen from the shape of this type of dagger from the end of the 15th century.
Even in the late 19th century dirks, the features of a bullock are still discernible.
a photo... dirk daggers from the Wallace collection

[Richard]

Probably I'm getting ahead of myself, and Vyacheslav Olegovich will write about this in the next article, but one cannot fail to mention the rondel daggers. This is a purely knightly dagger, which, however, was worn with everyday costume by paramilitary characters who want to emphasize their belonging to the nobility.
Rondel has been known since the mid-14th century.
It got its name thanks to its pommel and disc-shaped guard. The discs prevented the hand from sliding off the handle, but at the same time limited the variability of fencing. Designed for powerful thrusting punches. The blade part is very diversely presented.
Quite often the handle, pommel and guard of this dagger were made as a single one-piece piece.
Narrow faceted blades appear first at rondels: earlier than ballocks and much earlier than stilettos.
a photo. daggers rondel from the Wallace collection

[Richard]

Eared dagger.
Known from the late 14th - early 15th century.
It got its name due to the shape of the pommel in the form of two slightly inclined rounded protrusions, similar to ears. Garda did not have at all, or almost did not have.
The smallest type of knight's dagger in medieval Europe. And at the same time the most controversial. In a number of articles, it is called the Burgundy dagger. In some places, he is credited with Spanish roots. Meanwhile, the form is quite traditional Iranian, especially if we recall the bone design. It also resembles the daggers of the Stratiots and the Ottoman scimitars.
The mass distribution of eared daggers occurs in the 15th century. The appearance of the Balkan stratiots in the services of Venice is also the 15th century. The appearance of the scimitar is 15th again. Resettlement of Iranian Turkmens to the Balkans - back to the beginning of the 15th. Of course, this is not direct evidence. But, in any case, an interesting and logical chain of coincidences.
a photo. eared Venetian dagger from the Wallace collection. 15th century

[Richard]

Chinquedea
This is worth mentioning, although this dagger is usually not included in general typologies.
Known from 1450-1460s. Later in the 1550s, almost never occurs.
Northern Italian invention.
It got its name from the width of the blade. Literally translated from Italian as "five fingers".
A very interesting dagger with a wide and rather massive blade. The blade was often decorated with numerous mosaic valleys. Some researchers believe that the unusual shape of the dagger is influenced by the fashionable antique trends of the late Middle Ages.
a photo. Cinquedea daggers from the Wallace collection.

a photo. Cinquedea dagger belonging to Birago de Candia and Borgaro, 15th century. From the Wallace Collection.

[Richard]

Although not related to this topic, the daggers have already discussed, but in the Wallace collection there is a curious example of the 16th century late left-hand dagger, which is also called the sword dagger. Multiple traces of use are visible in the trap recesses. the blade has a noticeable crack in the area of ​​the sword

[Pane Kohanku]

Cinquedea daggers from the Wallace collection.

If you attach a shaft to it, you get a full-fledged protazan. In the Artillery Museum there is a richly inlaid protazan of the guard of the French king Louis XIV - "Gare du Cor". Features a wavy blade.

[kalibr]

Exactly, Anton! And one thing contributes to the other ...

[3x3zsave]

Alas, I cannot do that. I am a city dweller. The countryside, for me, is associated with daily hard and imperceptible (!) Work. I can't do this (already) ...

[depressant]

Anton, I will also add about the reasons for the transition to daggers with a flat section of the blade.
Such a dagger with a cutting edge is versatile. He cuts and sticks easily. The diamond shape is only stuck in. They realized this and began to gradually move to flat. The diamond-shaped one behaves like a rod broken out of the fence - it will stick well, but cannot cut, which sharply narrows the range of possible military actions)))

[Trilobite Master]

In the last picture, we were very clearly explained why it was "with eggs", and not "kidney" or, for example, "with acorns", such as "oak branch".
Very clear and natural, in my opinion.
Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always, thanks.
I read a long time ago, I don’t remember where, that cutlery was not served at feasts in the early and part of the High Middle Ages, so guests each used their own dagger to cut food, which is why it was customary to carry it with them everywhere.

[kalibr]

Quote: Trilobite Master

medieval cutlery was not served

Exactly. As they say in a feast, and in the world, and in good people with their dagger. And they ate ... with gloves! Directly they took fried meat and ate. Although it happened that bowls of rose water were served, dipping your fingers before and after eating is a kind of sophistication.

[3x3zsave]

I read a long time ago, I don’t remember where, that cutlery was not served at feasts in the early and part of the High Middle Ages, so guests each used their own dagger to cut food, which is why it was customary to carry it with them everywhere.
Michael!
In general, yes. Individual utensils and appliances for eating food began to appear in Europe between the First and Second Crusades. But there is a nuance ...

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: 3x3zsave

But there is a nuance ...

Very mysterious ... I hope not the same nuance as in the anecdote about Vasily Ivanovich and Petka?

[3x3zsave]

Definitely not! There are two points.
1. The dagger, as an element of knightly armor, is a sanctified object, and it is completely inappropriate to use it in worldly affairs.
2. Have you ever tried to cut something with a three-line bayonet, or a bayonet-knife from AKM?
There are also minor inconsistencies in the cited era.

[Trilobite Master]

Dagger - Sanctified? It seems to me not ... In any case, not immediately. Unless with the advent of plate armor, when it really became an exclusively weapon, similar to a bayonet or a broken rapier ...
If you look at the evolution of the knight's dagger, you can see a rather pronounced tendency towards narrowing the blade and its thickening. Moreover, the more "civilized" the country is, the better this tendency is seen.
I think that until the beginning of at least the XIV century. a knight's dagger, basically, is an instrument of noble labor (devour, put to the throat at the same time with a humble request to share wealth, pierce the skin of a neighbor on a banquet table, etc.), and not war.
For the commoners, yes. This is probably the second most popular weapon after the club.

[3x3zsave]

Dagger - Sanctified?
Sure! This is a weapon. Killing someone with an unsanctified weapon was a great sin in those days.

[Trilobite Master]

And then how to cut off the meat at the feast from the carcass?
Before the appearance of full plate armor of a noble sir, or there a chevalier, it was quite possible to send to the next world with a very sacred sword. Why daggers?
But with the advent of steel boxes of a high degree of protection, this process became more complicated and they had to look for new means, such as misericordia, which, of course, did not cut meat.
Look, even in the picture of Maciejewski, only commoners slash each other with daggers, while noble dons sit astride their no less noble horses and applaud on the sidelines. I think that under their chain mail they can very much hide beer and chips.

[Undecim]

Anton is right, Mikhail. Nobody used daggers at the table, it is inconvenient. For this, there were special table knives.

France, XNUMXth century.
In addition, there were cutlery.

Germany, XNUMXth century.
In 1669, Louis XIV banned sharp-edged table knives altogether, so that noble nobles would not stab each other right at the banquet.

[Trilobite Master]

So I'm talking about the period of the Early or the beginning of the High Middle Ages.

Quote: Trilobite Master

at feasts in the early and part of the High Middle Ages, cutlery was not served

Cutlery appeared exactly what, at the earliest, in the XNUMXth century.

Quote: Undecim

In 1669 Louis XIV

So before that they continued to stab.
Anton, apparently, is talking about his beloved XV century, and I about my XII - XIII ...

[Undecim]

and I about my XII - XIII ...

XIII century. France or Spain.

[Trilobite Master]

After all, XIV ...
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/464323

Object Details
Title: Knife
Date: ca. 1300-1350
Culture: French or Spanish
Medium: Steel blade, crystal handle, copper-gilt mountings

Well, let it be not XV, but XIV ... But all the same, this is already the Late Middle Ages. Formally, I was not mistaken, although I did not know about this knife.
Touched, by the way, the inscription on the blade ...

[Undecim]

This is definitely the XIII century.

[mihaylov]

Quote: Undecim

This is definitely the XIII century.

And in bowls it looks like boiled potatoes in their uniforms

[Undecim]

Meat pies.

[Trilobite Master]

Funny knives. This is also the Bible of Matsievsky, as far as I understand, the middle of the XIII century.
It is interesting how common the practice of using special knives during a feast was.
To be honest, I still cannot imagine that at a feast at some conventional Baron von Richtenau, Chevalier de Martignac or Lord Brackley in the XII-XIII centuries. special cutlery was served to the table.
Just as I can't imagine a knight of the same period with a narrow dagger, unable to cut.
In addition, the knights ate not only at feasts and at home, they spent a significant part of their time on hikes, trips, etc. and there it was as if they had to spend the night in the field and eat by the fire. Not everyone had their own tents and staffs of servants. Here, without a normal knife - sharp, durable, large enough, capable of cutting off bread and separating bone - well, no way.
And the picture is generally interesting. Below is clearly a servant, noble people are sitting at the table. The servant and the nobleman are engaged in the same business, using the same tool for this. Moreover, the rest of the participants in the feast do not have similar tools.
Where in the Bible does this image refer? What does it symbolize?

[Undecim]

Where in the Bible does this image refer? What does it symbolize?

https://www.themorgan.org/collection/crusader-bible/31

[Trilobite Master]

Thank you.
However, it turns out that the image is not the feast itself, but the preparation for it.

[Undecim]

However, it turns out that the image is not the feast itself, but the preparation for it.

https://www.themorgan.org/collection/crusader-bible/74
Michael, the article is about daggers. The dagger is exclusively a weapon. For household purposes, it is not intended, unlike a knife, which can be both a combat knife and a knife for everyday use and dozens of other subspecies.
Using a dagger to slice a snack is like using a gun to hammer in nails or chop nuts.

[Trilobite Master]

I agree. I probably used the term "dagger" in my first commentary not very correctly. The dagger is a weapon and is intended exclusively for murder, which, however, does not exclude its use for other purposes. By the word "dagger" I meant any item of constant wear with a short, relative to the sword, blade and hilt.
If that's the case, then yes - I agree.
And what do you think, Viktor Nikolaevich, is a dagger a kind of knife, or are dagger and knife two completely different concepts? This is no longer in relation to the discussion, but simply your opinion is interesting.
And we opened bottles of beer with pistols. Very comfortably.

[Undecim]

I would say so - a dagger, a highly specialized type of combat knife.

[Trilobite Master]

But it seems to me that the concepts of "knife" and "dagger" are different, just their volumes partially overlap. That is, along with knives that are not daggers, there are also daggers that cannot be called knives.

[Undecim]

And we opened bottles of beer with pistols. Very comfortably.

It depends on what. If PM, then yes. And if the coach saw that I was opening the beer with my pistol, he would have shot me out of it. Yes, and it is inconvenient for them to open beer.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Undecim

If PM, then yes.

What else? There were no others.
By the way, this is the only way I have ever used a weapon, fortunately.

[3x3zsave]

Anton, apparently, is talking about his beloved XV century, and I about my XII - XIII ...
In fact, Anton believes that the XNUMXth century is already the Renaissance, so unloved by him.

[Liam]

Quote: Undecim

Nobody used daggers at the table, it's inconvenient

On that peririd, meat was served on the table by the servants in the kitchen who had already been cut into pieces. The job was even that of a cutter. Moreover, there was strict etiquette to whom which piece was due depending on status.
Fighting knives at the table are intuitive nonsense influenced by cheap medieval movies with the indispensable whole carcasses of roast pigs

[Catfish]

Well, the bayonet from Mosinka was an exclusively piercing weapon, it is difficult to imagine that someone, even from a fairly drunken man, would try to cut a sausage with it.
But the bayonet from AKM is just a masterpiece of weapon stupidity, even if literally, even in a figurative sense, I have never heard anything good about this subject from anyone, personally I, in the army, dragged it on myself only when I was on duty in the battalion , and they stopped taking them on guard after this one bayonet was "lost", then it was, however, "found".
True, and with a bayonet from a Mauser rifle (Tokarev, Garand ...), you can cut something (they are not intended for that) only after preliminary sharpening, but it is better not to spoil a good thing.
So you're right all around, it's better not to try.

[Revolver]

Quote: Sea Cat

True, and with a bayonet from a Mauser rifle (Tokarev, Garand ...), you can cut something (they are not intended for that) only after preliminary sharpening, but it is better not to spoil a good thing.

I read somewhere that Mauser's bayonets were specially made of bad steel, so that no one could even think that "it will come in handy on the farm." He did not hold the sharpener. everyone who served was warned about this, and if someone did not believe and sharpened, then quickly became convinced how the knife loses sharpening from the type of sausage cut a couple of times. And he was stupid enough to bury the enemy.

[Catfish]

I'm not sure if I, among others, came across the very sharpened bayonets from the Mauser, but the steel there was of high quality, although all the bayonets were World War II.

[mihaylov]

Quote: 3x3zsave

Individual utensils and appliances for eating food began to appear in Europe between the First and Second Crusades.

Le Goff, in my opinion, wrote that cutlery was brought to Europe by the crusaders from the east.

[Richard]

Michael, my compliments

I read a long time ago, I don’t remember where, that cutlery was not served at feasts in the early and part of the High Middle Ages, so guests each used their own dagger to cut food, which is why it was customary to carry it with them everywhere.

Daggers of noble owners for this case had their own "cutlery" - a table knife and a fork-awl
Photo. dagger of beams belonging to Malvezzi Campeggi to the Marquis of Dozza. From the Wallace Collection

[Trilobite Master]

Greetings, Dmitry.
Judging by the design of these items, they were created no later than the end of the XNUMXth century. I was talking about a different time.
You can only kill with such a dagger, of course.
And, probably, it's a shame to be stuffed to death with a thing with such personal belongings ...

[Richard]

Misha, have you noticed the metal ring with crowns on the case lid? This is also a cutlery of that time - a sop thimble. The marquis put it on his index finger so as not to burn himself, dipping sop in hot sauce

[Revolver]

Quote: Trilobite Master

In the last picture, they explained to us very clearly why exactly "with eggs"

Well, eggs on a dagger, well, the owner is trying to add masculinity to himself, so what. So it was, so it will be. In America these days, some people hang testicles to the towbar, especially on trucks.

But it does not add to the owner of IT neither male strength, nor inches to the subject of male pride, although he may think otherwise.

[3x3zsave]

In Russia, a bucket is usually hung up.

[Korsar4]

The history of the bucket, probably, begins with horse-drawn transport.
And there could be tar in the bucket.

[3x3zsave]

Perhaps, but before the massive use of antifreeze as a coolant for car engines, a bucket was an absolute must for every driver. Especially in our country.

[Korsar4]

Yes. Of course.
The wartime pictures are presented this way.

[3x3zsave]

By the way, this is one of the figures that should have been given in a series of articles on heraldry, but better late than never
It became interesting who the respected Sheps (Aron Solomonovich, if I am not mistaken) wanted to portray?
"Name, sister ?! Name ?!" (C)
PS As for me (well, judging by the shield) - a noble Cuban knight!
Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

[Catfish]

... judging by the shield) - a noble Cuban knight!

So it was not the Uzbeks who discovered America ...

[3x3zsave]

Uzbeks, of course! Googled information on settling America.

[Catfish]

Well, I was so hoping that the knights did it during one of the crusades ...
And here again guest workers!

"But then Anjov Louis came
And he broke my dreams .. "(c)

[Pane Kohanku]

Well, I was so hoping that the knights did it during one of the crusades ...

St. Brandan opened. According to the description of his voyage, there is an idea that he definitely saw Jan Mayen with his companions.
Allow me to joke a little?

“Arriving at his house, he took a knife and,
taking his concubine, cut her
by its members into twelve parts
and sent to all the borders of Israel. "

Something I'm really starting to be afraid of people with the title of "assistant professor" ...

[Catfish]

Yes, "all members to all the borders of Israel", however, a rich fantasy. God forbid.

[Richard]

3x3zsave (Anton): It became interesting who the respected Sheps (Aron Solomonovich, if I am not mistaken) wanted to portray?
"Name, sister ?! Name ?!" (C)
PS As for me (well, judging by the shield) - a noble Cuban knight!

Here is what V.O. writes about this illustration of Sheps. Shpakovsky:

This is my own reconstruction based on one of the effigies. The contour figure of a "man" was taken as a basis and dressed in the fashion of the XIV century. A. Sheps painted it and gave it "liveliness" (c)
link: https: //topwar.ru/159307-istoricheskie-illjustracii-narisovat-ne-tak-prosto.html#comments.

Author's articles "Historical illustrations. Drawing is not easy!" was at VO on June 28, 2019.
I personally do not undertake to discuss this illustration without seeing the effigy that was the basis for it.

[Pane Kohanku]

noble Cuban knight!

Fasendeiro de Cubano with rum and mulattos?

[3x3zsave]

de Cubano
And the kurennaya Kuban chieftain.

[Pane Kohanku]

And the kurennaya Kuban chieftain.

Cuban-Cuban, then already. So, are you suggesting that Cuban rum originated from Kuban moonshine?

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Fasendeiro de Cubano with rum and mulattos?

And with a Cuban cigar rolled on the thigh of a beautiful mulatto ...

[Pane Kohanku]

And with a Cuban cigar rolled on the thigh of a beautiful mulatto ...

Everybody imagined how Anton rolls a cigar? Romantic sir!

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Everybody imagined how Anton rolls a cigar?

To be honest, I represented the Cuban woman:

[Pane Kohanku]

To be honest I represented a Cuban woman

Do you really need to smoke cigars with that name? I wonder what the flavor is ... Judging by the name, the Cuban stuffed them with dung ... Kuban!

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Going by the name, the Cuban stuffed them with dung ... the Kuban!

This is what gives them that unique aroma for which they are famous throughout the world.

[Pane Kohanku]

This is what gives them that unique aroma for which they are famous throughout the world.

What a blessing that I smoke ordinary cigarettes, but I haven’t learned how to smoke cigars ...

[depressant]

I love medieval miniatures! Unhurriedly, with the maximum possible detailing of the event and at the same time with surprisingly accurate transmission of the emotional background of what is happening through bodily poses (you cannot see the face!), The artists told their story. Here is a miniature from the Bible of Matsievsky, presented by Vyacheslav Olegovich as an illustration of the use of daggers in medieval battles, allows us to consider this very application.
In the center of the miniature there are two opposing sides. Each, pulling the enemy to himself by the grip by the neck, thrust a dagger into him: one thrust it somewhere in the spleen area, and the second thrust the dagger into the opponent's back, but the wound is hardly fatal. But blood gushes!
Directly above them, a fighter from a pair that entered into confrontation pierces the enemy with a sword through and through - there is no longer blood, but blood, but at the same time he himself receives a dagger strike directly in the forehead! And even with a deep dive. Consider both corpses.
To the left of the fighters, someone receives a blow with a dagger in the eye, and to the right, someone unarmed, leaning back, is trying to avoid a similar blow. In the foreground there are corpses and even, as it seemed to me, a head severed by a sword.
That's how it was, medieval life!)))))
But once again, pay attention to the skill with which the dynamics of the battle and its consequences are conveyed.

[Aviator_]

and the second plunges a dagger into the back of the enemy, but the wound is hardly fatal.

I believe that it is fatal - damage to the lung, pneumothorax, inability to breathe fully and loss of blood contribute to death in a couple of hours. It is unlikely that the wounded at that time was taken to intensive care, rather - immediately to the cemetery. Remember "Sevastopol Stories" by L.N. Tolstoy - even then, the wounds were divided into wounds to the limbs, when the wounded could be saved by amputation, and to all other wounds ending in a cemetery soon.

[depressant]

Why did it seem so to me.
Because the left opponent hit, seeing where he hits, the wound is fatal.
And the right one put his hand behind the opponent and hit where it turned out, without seeing. The position of the dagger looks like the blade has slid along the ribs.

[Aviator_]

Well, if I slipped along the ribs, without penetrating into the lung, then there is a chance. In general, at that time they did not know how to provide first aid, there were many losses from this. Although Pirogov described an amazing case when a soldier came to his dressing station in Sevastopol with a broken carotid artery, which he plugged with a finger.

[depressant]

I hope the soldier survived. I have read about cases of survival with such injuries. But, I remember, help was provided quickly. In the same place, if not a fountain of blood beats, then in jerks. A very dangerous wound.

[Aviator_]

Yes, there was no time to hesitate. It beats with a fountain. The soldier himself plugged the artery, went to the doctor and got there, that's what is surprising. Lucky.

[Evil troll]

And with what expression the horses look at all this.

[depressant]

Colleague, amused! )))
In my opinion, the horses, looking at what is happening, are having fun from the heart)))

[mihaylov]

Quote: depressant

In the center of the miniature there are two opposing sides.

But in the throat I managed to stab
And there two times turn
My weapon ...

[depressant]

This is how the snow leopards ended up in the Caucasus! )))

[Pane Kohanku]

This is how the snow leopards ended up in the Caucasus!

Lyudmila Yakovlevna, I don’t remember offhand, but did Lermontov really mean a snow leopard? It seems that the Caucasian leopard is found in the Caucasus, or the Caucasian leopard ... Most likely, the poet meant him!

[depressant]

Are you getting bored, Nikolai? )))))
In fact, Lermontov meant a leopard ))))

[Pane Kohanku]

Are you getting bored, Nikolai? )))))

I .. I am ... My life ...

In fact, Lermontov meant a leopard

I would venture to suggest that in ancient Russia, a leopard was called in everyday life any large cat. By the way, it was also a popular name for pre-Peter guns!
Although the cheetah was called Pardus, it seems ...
Now they are trying to recreate the leopard in the Caucasus. As far as I understand, things are not going very well ...

[depressant]

Yes! ... They called it))))
No wonder the diminutive "Barsik" was a popular nickname for a domestic cat in recent times. Now, rather, no longer. People give birth to cats of expensive and exotic breeds, to which you cannot apply the universal "Barsik" - it is offensive and belittles the importance (I mean the prestige of the owner of a cat with a pedigree). So, it is difficult to establish who Mtsyri was fighting there at the moment. I believe that a lot of Ph.D. theses have been defended on the topic of the breed of animal opposing Mtsyri. Probably much less defended doctorates about the meaning of the hero's struggle with the beast. Presumably, the beast is a collective image of unfit character traits and thoughts of the hero himself. It was a difficult victory over myself. Those who received the title of candidate of related sciences, were not satisfied with what they had achieved and decided to develop the topic in the direction of the true meaning of the duel, became doctors of the same sciences. The rest remained candidates and, to justify their own laziness, convince everyone that Mtsyri fought with the animal.
And the leopards were knocked out in the North Caucasus. They are trying to resettle. There were 4 pairs ready for resettlement, but in one pair the female died. And for some reason, bad thoughts come into my head, for what reason this happened. There, after all, next to the reserve are the grounds of lordly persons with hunting instincts.

[Pane Kohanku]

There, after all, next to the reserve are the grounds of lordly persons with hunting instincts.

Sadly ... Russia-s. And there is also, go, and with a local flavor ...

[Aviator_]

Traditionally in Russia, cats were called Vasiliy, and cats - Murki. The first mention of the cat-Vasily I found in Pushkin, in his "House in Kolomna". By the way, about literature. When "Mtsyri" was held at school, everything was clear - he was a fighter against autocracy for his freedom. When I came across this work in democratic times, I was horrified who, out of youthful stupidity, I sympathized with - the son of some high-ranking Chechen, whose whole dream is to return back, home, to the former life of the golden Chechen youth of the first third of the XNUMXth century.

[depressant]

Great comment, colleague! )))
Frankly, I did not think about such an interpretation of Mtsyri's image. It's just that in those days when I was studying Lermontov's verse, it never occurred to me to interpret it somehow - people like him ran around everywhere and were so boring that Mtsyri became boring, and Lermontov himself, with the exception of great:

I go out alone on the road;
Through the fog, the siliceous path glistens;
The night is quiet. The desert hears God
And the star speaks with the star.
It is solemn and wonderful in heaven!
The earth sleeps in blue radiance.
Why is it so painful and so difficult?
I'm waiting for what? Do I regret what?

It was a period of teenage throwing! )))

[Aviator_]

For some reason I immediately felt "I go out on the road alone ...", even though I was small and did not like poetry.

[Pane Kohanku]

When I came across this work in a democratic time, I was horrified

Sergei, I had the same thing with Taras Bulba. How I admired them at school. But five years ago I decided to reread it. And when he (even before the justified campaign against the noble ones!) Began, as they say, to persuade the people to re-elect the chieftain, so that go camping on your own - fight, the thought flashed through me: "Yes, it's just ... some kind of hooliganism!"

[Aviator_]

I have not read "Taras", and I will not, recently I got so pricked with "Ivanhoe"

[Pane Kohanku]

Recently I got so fucked up with "Ivanhoe"

Hooligan too?

[Aviator_]

No, a historical mixture of eras.

[Pane Kohanku]

No, a historical mixture of eras.

In general, we live in a relatively prosperous, albeit unfair, time ...

[mihaylov]

Quote: depressant

meant a leopard

From Rudroprayag?

[Pane Kohanku]

From Rudroprayag?

I just googled ... He's exactly what he "eaten" at each village. How I went to public catering!

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

I just googled ... He's exactly what he "eaten" at each village. How I went to public catering!

According to Corbett's book, they could not shoot him for 8 years and more than 100 people were listed for him only by official registration.

[Pane Kohanku]

and more than 100 people are listed for him only by official registration

"Vika" writes about more ... In short, like Ghost and Darkness, only a leopard.

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

"Vika" writes about more ... no In short, like "Ghost and Darkness", only a leopard.

I have a book - like this:

Children's book of his wife, with a note made by a child's hand: "a very scary book"
And here is Jim Corbitt himself with the "hero of the occasion":

[Pane Kohanku]

Children's book of his wife, with a note made by a child's hand: "a very scary book"

Did the hunter write himself?

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Did the hunter write himself?

No, my wife wrote, as a child this book made a very big impression on her.
I didn’t read it as a child, I read it recently, I liked it.
By the way, he has several books.

[3x3zsave]

The beast howled
I rushed with my last strength
The cheese fell out
With him there was a cheat
"The Fable of the Pterodactyl" by Aesop.

[Pane Kohanku]

"The Fable of the Pterodactyl" by Aesop.

Exactly? Is it not Sophocles?

[depressant]

Anton's quote is indeed an excerpt from Aesop's Pterodactyl and the Cheese Maker. In this case, the genre of the work is defined incorrectly - it is a tragedy.

[Pane Kohanku]

Pterodactyl and cheese maker

Did I tell you about the first unsuccessful experience of European cheese making in Russia? Anton and Sergei Mikhailov, it seems, have already buzzed all their ears ...

[depressant]

My ears are not buzzing! I hung it up in the most convenient way!

[Pane Kohanku]

My ears are not buzzing! I hung it up in the most convenient way!

So that's it. The fact that Gatchina de jure became the capital of the Leningrad region, we must in many respects thank its most famous tenant - Pavel Petrovich. The manor and the palace came to him after Grigory Orlov. Pavel continued the work begun by the previous owner, by the way, the English gardeners also "inherited" him. The place, originally conceived as a hunting castle, was overgrown with gardens and buildings, then barracks for Pavlov's troops were added, the area settled down - in general, now we have a small town with a cozy center.
On his accession to the throne, Paul made Gatchina his official residence.
And the story itself: once a foreigner came to him, introduced himself as a cheese maker, and modestly impudently asked for money. He promised to expand the production of several varieties of overseas cheeses for this amount! And all the cheeses of the usual consistency were then imported, because what we called cheese was the essence of a pressed mixture of cottage cheese and eggs.
Pavel gave the money. He was generally generous. Moreover, for such and such an initiative - God himself commanded!
Some time passes. There is no cheese promised. And the cheese maker is gone! We started looking. They say that he went on horseback from Gatchina to Staro-Panovo (this is the southwestern border of modern St. Petersburg) to a local cattle breeder, with whom he negotiated about cows.
In general, the cheesemaker's little body was found a few days later. Somewhere between these settlements. Nearby, and the horse grazed. The doctor opened, diagnosed - "fever". That is to say, from love to the green snake, a professional has fumbled. They opened its bins - and there were only a few circles of cheese of the same sort and done.
This is how the first domestic experience of making foreign cheeses ended!


And I deigned to read this story in this book, which I bought in the presence of our Anton, for which I wish to express my courtesy to him!

[depressant]

However, investment traditions are strong in our Penates! )))

[Pane Kohanku]

However, investment traditions are strong in our Penates!

Compared to how the Orlov family was presented before, this unsuccessful investment is thousandths of a percent of a penny.

[depressant]

The tradition has not only acquired a stable character, but over time has noticeably freshened up in financial terms. Thousands of a percent can be compared not only with the indices of the past Orlovs, but with the indices of the future Orlovs.
Orlovs ... Orlovs everywhere! Tenacious as a species.

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

And I deigned to read this story in this book, which I bought in the presence of our Anton, for which I wish to express my courtesy to him!

Nikolay, is there anything in your book about the arch in Mozino?
It seems like it was built on the meeting place of Grigory Orlov and Catherine:

[Pane Kohanku]

Nikolay, is there anything in your book about the arch in Mozino?

We must see, Sergei!

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

We must see, Sergei!

If not difficult, there is somehow little information about her, I really did not specifically look for it.

[Pane Kohanku]

If not difficult, there is somehow little information about her, I really did not specifically look for it.

There should be, if this arch is not a later construction. Is this a turn to the New World?

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Is this a turn to the New World?

Yes, to the New World, now this road has been closed, and earlier I drove past it to the dacha for many years.
I was going to find information about the arch, but I forgot.
It seems to be like Catherine went to visit Grigory Orlov, and he solemnly met her at this place, in honor of which they erected an arch. But it is not exactly.

[Pane Kohanku]

It seems to be like Catherine went to visit Grigory Orlov, and he solemnly met her at this place, in honor of which they erected an arch. But it is not exactly.

I heard something like that, but I won't say it for memory ... Orlov began to collect an antique collection in Gatchina. There are even as many as two (!) Antinous, and one in Egyptian underwear. Grigory Grigorievich himself was also fond of physical experiments. He did not seem to be up to the level of Pane Kohancu with his miraculous electric machine in his delights, but he did the "ice bomb", and demonstrated it to Catherine.
An interesting sketch: in 1764, one of the officers (Georgian by nationality) brought to little Pavel several toy wind instruments. They were fired with special wooden cannonballs. Jemnip, on the same day Grigory Orlov came in, and the Tsarevich granted half of them to him, after which they arranged a shootout game in the room.

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

There are even two (!) Antinous,

[Pane Kohanku]

There are even two (!) Antinous

Not. These ones. Bust:

and the statue:

[mihaylov]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Not. These ones. Bust:

They spawned these antinoes: they got right up to Gatchina

[Pane Kohanku]

They spawned these antinoes: they got right up to Gatchina

Moreover, the antinous themselves do not breed in their natural environment. Although everything is possible in modern Europe ...

[3x3zsave]

Exactly! The attribution of this work to Sophocles is the evil ravings of the enemies of the communists!

[Pane Kohanku]

The attribution of this work to Sophocles is the evil ravings of the enemies of the communists!

You are calling, Anton ... Do you have a Good Doctor's education?

[3x3zsave]

Do you need? I don't even have a building education, but I'm building!

[3x3zsave]

"Two colored beautiful reproductions
I took it from Ogonyok last year.
On one - against the background of reconstruction
Happy girl goes:
Smiling joyfully and generously
Blood, as they say, with milk.
And this picture is called
"The girl with a jackhammer".

In another picture - late morning
From the window to the sky, a frowning view
A young man, more serious than a serious one,
Sits in the room thoughtfully:
Thin lips are tightly compressed,
The shoulders were lost in the jacket.
And this picture is called
"A young man with a violin in his hand."

Maybe times are harsh now
Just why and why
Girls are cheerful, healthy,
The youths are not that folded.
Still, I live a shaky dream,
Seeing reproductions in a row,
What a young man with a violin will love
A girl with a jackhammer. "(C)

[mihaylov]

Quote: 3x3zsave

A girl with a jackhammer

Good, I remembered the good old video "Satisfaction"

[Korsar4]

And the background Music by Shcherbakov "Flight of the Valkyries".

[depressant]

Anton, this argument against the enemies of the communists is truly compelling! Let them try! Even if coming to us with a baselard, even with any other piercing-cutting, and we to them:
- Whoever comes to us with a blade is lagging behind in terms of weapons!

[mihaylov]

Quote: 3x3zsave

"The Fable of the Pterodactyl" by Aesop.

- Yazh * yk and _ * oops
- I'm sorry, what?
He says "Aesop's Tongue"

[Pane Kohanku]

He says "Aesop's Tongue"

- Lisa Mona? Mona Lisa? ("Town").

[depressant]

Middle Ages, XIV century. The prince is waiting for a letter from his beloved .. Three days and three nights he waits ... Finally, a carrier pigeon arrives. The happy prince opens the message, and there "I am making baselards, inexpensive".

[Pane Kohanku]

The happy prince opens the message, and there "I am making baselards, inexpensive".

Spam! And such a hundred princes - doves. And sometimes something worse comes along ...

[depressant]

The song hummed by the spam model while making spam:
Spam spam spam!
We will definitely come to you today! Can you hear how the flight sounds
spam that leads forward
To the emptiness of your account,!

[Alien From]

A wonderful excursion into history! Bravo Vyacheslav Olegovich!

[v.tochenn]

In one hand the saw shines, In the other her damask dagger; It seemed as if the maiden was going to a secret battle, to a feat of arms- Pushkin A.S.

[Zaurbek]

Are those knights' tombstones?
Interestingly, Caucasian daggers are somehow connected with these medieval ones?