Military Review

Features of the symbiosis of the Greco-barbarian ethnic groups of the Northern Black Sea region

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Features of the symbiosis of the Greco-barbarian ethnic groups of the Northern Black Sea region
Comb from Solokha (IV century BC). One of the striking examples of the mixing of the cultural traditions of the Greeks and Scythians


The first Hellenic navigators appeared on the northern shores of the Black Sea around the XNUMXth century BC. As often happens, despite the harsh climate and inhospitable nature, the territory of Taurica was by no means empty and was inhabited, if not numerous, then by a very diverse ethnic group. However, unlike other colonizations, this time the Greeks faced not only their usual sedentary or semi-sedentary aboriginal tribes, but also a fundamentally new world represented by nomadic nomads. In their mobile way of life, psychological perception, disposition and customs, the steppe people were radically different from the Hellenes, accustomed to a settled life in fortified cities and feeding mainly on agriculture. It is obvious that the coexistence of two so different cultures could not do without conflicts and misunderstandings. But as shown история In the northern Black Sea region, the nomads and the Hellenes still managed to find common ground.

How did the relationship of such different cultures come about? What served as bonds in the relations of peoples, and what, on the contrary, alienated them from each other? How did this symbiosis end? And how did it affect the states located on the territory of the Northern Black Sea region at that time?

Unfortunately, there are no exact answers to these questions. The line is too shaky when it comes to understanding the archaeological and written finds of a society that lived almost three thousand years ago.

Nevertheless, scientists do not stop working on finding answers to these difficult questions. And some of the results seem to be quite valid.

Difficult path of colonization


First of all, it is worth mentioning that, having arrived to new lands, the Hellenes were faced with qualitatively new climatic and territorial conditions of the region. The vast expanses of the steppe, deep rivers and a cold climate seem to have caused a culture shock among the new settlers. The impression they experienced was even reflected in the famous "Odyssey" of Homer, who located the territory of the Northern Black Sea coast at the very entrance to the kingdom of the dead:

We finally swam the deeply flowing ocean.
There is a country and a city of Cimmerian husbands. Everlasting
There is dusk and fog. Never a luminous sun
Does not illuminate with rays the people inhabiting that land
Does it leave the earth, entering the starry sky,
Or descends from the sky, heading back to earth.
A sinister tribe of unhappy people surrounds the night.
(Translated by V.V. Veresaev under the editorship of Academician I.I.Tolstoy).


Remains of dugouts and semi-dugouts in the Olbia region (VI century BC)
Source: "Greeks and barbarians of the Northern Black Sea region in the Scythian era"

In the new realities, the polis way of life was forced to adapt to the environment. The uneven density of the local population and the migration lines of nomadic peoples made significant amendments to the colonization business in different parts of Taurica. So, in the Olbia region at the earliest stage of its development, archeology records the rapid growth of agricultural settlements, in which traditional Greek houses were adjacent to the dugouts of the indigenous population, which indicated a fairly peaceful relationship between the colonists and local residents, with a low number of nomads in this area.


Remains of above-ground adobe-stone buildings in the region of Olbia (late XNUMXth-XNUMXth century BC)
Source: "Greeks and barbarians of the Northern Black Sea region in the Scythian era"

A much more complicated situation is observed in the area of ​​the Kerch Strait on the territory of the future Bosporus kingdom. There, despite the abundance of fertile spaces, the settlements of the colonists huddled together around the fortified cities-fortresses on the banks of the strait, often located at a distance of direct visibility. The excavation data allow scientists to very confidently assume that the future kingdom was exactly on the path of large nomadic migrations of the Scythian tribes, who consolidated their power in these lands by the XNUMXth century BC. e. Only collective actions to build fortifications and joint defense of settlements, and, most likely, with the involvement of indigenous sedentary residents, helped to retain the reclaimed lands of Crimea and allowed the Bosporus to take shape in a full-fledged state formation.


Settlements in Eastern Crimea IV century BC e. (after I. T. Kruglikova)
Source: "Greeks and barbarians of the Northern Black Sea region in the Scythian era"

There was another example of the development of new lands by the Hellenes.

Excavation data and written sources allow us to conclude that in the region of the IV century BC, the formation of the Chersonesos kingdom was accompanied by the ruthless destruction and displacement of local Taurian tribes into the mountainous regions of Crimea, who, before the arrival of the colonists, lived in fairly large settlements on the Heracles peninsula. Some archaeological excavations, in particular of the defensive walls, allow us to conclude that the early policy of Chersonesos itself was founded on the territory of some ancient pre-Greek settlement.


Chersonesos Tauric. Photo source: www.open archeology.rf

However, despite the fact that the colonists interacted very closely with the indigenous sedentary population, the main force that changed the cultural and ethnic background of the region was the relationship between the Greeks and nomadic barbarians.

Nomads and Greeks in Relationship Matters


Today, there are three main versions of the interaction of such different ethnic groups.

Supporters first version in their works they tend to deny any significant influence of the barbarians on the culture of the Greek city-states and the settlements surrounding them. In this situation, the steppe dwellers are assigned the role of external aggressors against whom the colonists unite, as well as, to some extent, trading partners who consume goods with high added value in exchange for grain, furs and leather.

Adherents the second version, based on practically the same reserves of data, adhere to the opposite point of view, arguing that the nomadic barbarian population of the region must be assigned a key leading role in the formation of not only the cultural, but also the territorial characteristics of Taurica.

With the emergence of new archaeological data and with the rethinking of the existing written sources, another third version events. Its supporters, without making radical conclusions and statements about the role of Greco-barbarian relations, tend to an uneven and cyclical process of integrating cultures into each other.


Schematic map of the settlement of the Scythians V-IV century BC. e.
Source: "Greeks and barbarians of the Northern Black Sea region in the Scythian era"

Be that as it may, but many researchers ultimately agree that the relationship between the nomads and the Hellenes was not simple.

The high level of ethnic self-awareness among both groups of peoples did not allow them to quickly come to compromises and find mutually beneficial solutions. The Greeks, due to the peculiarities of their society, considered all the surrounding tribes and states, even highly developed ones, to be barbarians, and treated them accordingly. In turn, the nomads, representing impressive military power and, in fact, who for a long time did not know severe shocks and defeats, most likely did not want to put themselves on a lower level of social development and responded to the colonists with mutual hostility.

An additional force hindering the development of mutually beneficial relations was the extreme political instability that reigned in the steppe zone of the region. The constant migrations of nomadic tribes in conflict with each other and the invasions of new associations from the depths of the Great Steppe have repeatedly changed the ethnic and political situation in the Black Sea region, breaking the established ties between Greeks and nomads. Each new strong nomadic group, as a rule, in search of a "new homeland" destroyed and suppressed in new territories any force capable of resisting the new masters of the region, and only after that began to pursue a policy of mutually beneficial coexistence. Such actions were often accompanied by mass extermination of the population and the destruction of settlements, which did not contribute to the rapid establishment of ties.

Unity of opposites of political systems


But, despite the fact that no matter how tense the relations between the peoples, they never crossed the line beyond which the renewal of contacts became impossible. Already at the earliest stages of Greek colonization, ethnic groups were drawn to each other, both from the side of profitable commodity relations, and from the exchange of ideas and knowledge accumulated in various conditions of existence. In this case, a mixture of traditions and customs of ethnic groups seems inevitable. The indisputable Greek cultural domination over other peoples did not prevent them from adopting barbaric customs, elements of art, or even technology of survival. Good examples of such integrations are earthen and semi-earthen dwellings, animal images in paintings and decorations, as well as some religious burial cults found in the Olbia region.

Another factor that contributed to the establishment of Greco-barbarian relations, according to a number of scholars, was that, in essence, behind all the differences, nomadic and polis political systems had a number of common features. Namely: the inability to autonomous existence, parasitism and stagnation in development.

For all its merits, such an education as a polis, reaching a certain level, lost the ability to self-sufficiency and was forced to absorb or subjugate weaker and less developed neighbors. Likewise, the nomadic horde, growing to a critical scale, was forced to suppress and exploit neighboring societies to maintain their own existence.

Taking this into account, a situation developed on the northern shores of the Black Sea in which a reciprocal system of exploitation of ethnic groups was observed in different regions of Taurica. The Greeks took advantage of the irrational exchange of goods, the subordination of the local indigenous population and the slave trade. The nomadic tribes, in turn, enriched themselves at the expense of constant raids, levying tribute and all the same slave trade. Probably, each of the parties participating in this process tried to rebuild the system of relationships in their favor. But at the same time, both the Greeks and the nomads were interested in each other as a source of material gain. And for the sake of preserving their counterparty, they were ready to make any deals and compromises, if circumstances required it.

So is it the Greek or the barbarian population?


A separate point is to highlight the question of whether the population of the ancient cities of Taurica consisted of predominantly Hellenized barbarians or was it all the same from barbarized Greeks?

Guided by the data of excavations of burials, as well as studies of household items in cities, scientists make assumptions that at the first stages of the formation of the states of the Northern Black Sea region, impressed by the possible quality of life and the benefits provided, nomads by whole tribes integrated into the culture of the Greeks, adopting a sedentary lifestyle and settling in cities , thereby providing additional population growth.

However, based on the rich Scythian burial mounds near the walls of the Hellenic cities, it is important to note that many traditions and rituals, having become sedentary, were preserved by the nomads and brought with them to new places for life.


Mounds of the barbarian nobility of the XNUMXth - early XNUMXth centuries in the Bosporus.
Source: "Greeks and barbarians of the Northern Black Sea region in the Scythian era"

At the later stages of the existence of ancient cities, especially in our era, with the growth of population and the inevitable mixing of the families of the Greco-barbarian elite, a bias towards barbarian traditions and a barbarian way of life over the Hellenic is recorded. This trend was also reinforced by regular waves of newcomers from the Great Steppe, which inevitably diluted the existing population.

Сonclusion


Despite the overwhelming advantage of the Hellenistic culture over the rest on the territory of Taurica, the Greeks still could not absorb and overshadow the indigenous and nomadic population of the region. This was partly due to the fact that in the new climatic conditions for themselves, the first colonists were forced to adopt the skills of survival from the local population, thereby entering into a certain merger with them. And partly because of the enormous military power of the nomadic world, which could not be ignored.

Both economically and culturally, all groups of the population were in one way or another interested in each other, deriving, albeit subtle, but still significant benefits from close coexistence.

The complex symbiosis of ethnic groups formed on the northern shores of the Black Sea was, if not unique, then a rather rare phenomenon in ancient history.

The system of interactions and political peculiarities was built in such a way that any significant imbalance in relations after a series of crises was somehow stabilized, returning to the bizarre form of power and trade ties.

Such an interesting structure, with certain transformations, existed for about a thousand years, which, even by the standards of history, is an impressive life span for a political system.

Sources:
1. Greeks and barbarians of the Northern Black Sea region in the Scythian era. Edited by Doctor of Historical Sciences K. K. Marchenko. Aletheia Publishing House, St. Petersburg, 2018
2. VF Gaidukevich "Bosporus Kingdom" Moscow, Leningrad, 1949
3. VN Zinko "Hellenic colonization of eastern Crimea", journal "Bosporus studies", 2021, no. 25, pp. 3–18.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 30 May 2021 05: 59
    +14
    ... As often happens, despite the harsh climate and inhospitable nature, the territory of Taurica was by no means empty and was inhabited, if not numerous, then by a very diverse ethnic group.

    Uh-huh, as a friend of Abkhaz told me about his school years, “damn it’s a dummy! Minus three! A good owner will not drive the dog out into the street, but for us (the children) to go to school !!! ".
    laughing
    Thanks to the author for continuing the cycle about the Black Sea region, good day comrades !!!
    Sincerely, Kitty!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 30 May 2021 07: 04
      +7
      Good morning Vladislav!

      “I would look at him,
      When it would be minus thirty "(c).
    2. Bar1
      Bar1 30 May 2021 08: 28
      +7
      I wonder how they generally fit together
      because of the enormous military power of the nomadic world, which could not be ignored

      and a nomadic lifestyle? Nomads are ALWAYS tied to the fodder base of their herds and the nomadic movement is carried out not where coal and ore are located, but where the grass for cattle has not yet been eaten away. ore, since it is said about the "enormous military power" of the nomads and certainly not according to the Russian nomads, then it is necessary to find large deposits, these are the Kryvyi Rih deposit and the Donbass coal basin. a huge amount of charcoal, so be it.
      But the extraction of ore, its processing, the construction of furnaces, forges, the delivery of ore, coal, additives, fluxes is NOT a nomad, but a sedentary way of life and, moreover, for a long time. How to leave mines or coal pits and migrate further somewhere? And then roam around and fix what was thrown.
      What an incredible picture.
      Here the conclusion is such a nomadic way of life and the production of iron products are INCOMPATIBLE.
      Therefore, the opinion that the Scythians / Mongols had a "huge military force" is vicious through and through.
      Why do local authors, speaking about the Scythians, do not mention the Scythian cities of Scythopolis in the Middle East or the Scythian city of Gelon about which Herodotus spoke?
      The Scythians had cities, which means that the Scythians were not nomads.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 30 May 2021 09: 16
        +7
        The Scythians had cities, which means that the Scythians were not nomads.

        On the territory of Simferopol are the remains of the Scythian city of Naples Scythian. There is also a Scythian fortress Ak-Kaya on White Rock in the Belogorsk region, all these fortresses were surrounded by walls of 6 meters thick. If you look at the golden masterpieces of the Scythians, you cannot imagine that they, in a wagon, were made on the knee. These fortresses date back to the time of the Greek colonies. Well, the Greek colonies can now be called a "trading network", before climate change in the 6th century AD. Crimea was much more convenient for growing wheat and the Greeks bought grain from local farmers and resold it to Greece. The cooperation was mutually beneficial, so the Greek trading cities existed from the 6th century BC. until the 6th century A.D. Crimea was not very convenient for nomads, the Kerch Strait was an obstacle, nomadic routes were mainly along the northern Black Sea coast, therefore there are so many ancient cities in such "dead ends" as the Kerch and Taman peninsulas.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 36
          +5
          And Crimea was not very convenient for nomads, the Kerch Strait interferes, nomadic routes were mainly along the northern Black Sea coast, therefore there are so many ancient cities in such "dead ends" as the Kerch and Taman peninsulas
          In my opinion, everything is exactly the opposite.
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 30 May 2021 10: 49
            +4
            In my opinion, everything is exactly the opposite.

            And why? For example, the Huns bypassed the Crimea.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 56
              +4
              And why not?
              On ice. Winter trade and nomadic route. This can explain the concentration of the Greek city-states on the Kerchesky and Taman peninsulas.
              1. Konnick
                Konnick 30 May 2021 11: 08
                +2
                On ice. Winter trade and nomadic route. This can explain the concentration of the Greek city-states on the Kerchesky and Taman peninsulas.

                And how often did the Kerch Strait freeze? It freezes once every 40 years. And what was the overland trade route through the Crimea?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 May 2021 11: 19
                  +5
                  And how often did the Kerch Strait freeze?
                  One must think in the time of Mithridates Eupator with a regularity sufficient to carry out battles on his ice. Well, if Strabo is not lying.
                  It freezes once every 40 years.
                  So I thought that you would appeal to modern climatic conditions. And our Neva did not freeze the winter before last.
                  1. Konnick
                    Konnick 30 May 2021 11: 43
                    +4
                    One must think in the time of Mithridates Eupator with a regularity sufficient to carry out battles on his ice. Well, if Strabo is not lying.

                    The only battle, but with regularity how?
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 May 2021 11: 50
                      +5
                      The only battle
                      Well, you know, this is not a hockey rink after all.
                2. PhilipKDick
                  30 May 2021 11: 54
                  +6
                  I can't say, but 3 years ago the climate was slightly colder and the sea level was lower.
                  1. Konnick
                    Konnick 30 May 2021 12: 03
                    +4
                    I can't say, but 3 years ago the climate was slightly colder and the sea level was lower.

                    Slightly colder, but the climate was more humid, which suggests that the winters were milder. Those. average annual temperatures were lower, summer temperatures were lower than today and, accordingly, winter temperatures were higher.
                  2. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 30 May 2021 12: 06
                    +6
                    My respect, Yegor!
                    Thank you for the article!
                    1. PhilipKDick
                      30 May 2021 13: 03
                      +6
                      Hello. Thank you for your feedback. smile
                      I will add about the climate and sea level.
                      You are right, there is reason to believe that the winters were much milder. However, the level of the Kerch Strait itself was significantly lower.
                      The Sea of ​​Azov in those days was not considered a sea either, but was a swamp (name - Meotida).
                      Therefore, it could well be that the strait froze over every winter.
                      Thank you.
                  3. Konnick
                    Konnick 30 May 2021 12: 08
                    +5
                    the sea level is lower.

                    Almost all Greek cities on the southern coast of the Kerch and Taman peninsulas are half or entirely under water. If you examine the map of depths in these places up to 15 meters, the outlines of bays, convenient for harbors, are clearly visible.
                  4. Konnick
                    Konnick 30 May 2021 12: 39
                    +4
                    The Roman Climatic Optimum is a short stretch of the Sub-Atlantic period, spanning the time from 250 BC. e. until about 400 AD e. The mild climate contributed to the prosperity of large empires. It was during this period that the maximum expansion of the Roman Empire took place.
                    The climate of Europe has warmed in comparison with the previous period by 1-2 ° C. The climate was probably hot, but not dry. The temperature was roughly the same as today, and north of the Alps was even higher than today. In North Africa and the Middle East, a more humid climate reigned.

                    Well, respectively, in the Crimea and Taman.
                3. ccsr
                  ccsr 30 May 2021 16: 41
                  0
                  Quote: Konnick
                  And how often did the Kerch Strait freeze? It freezes once every 40 years. And what was the overland trade route through the Crimea?

                  Regularly for one to two weeks with a cyclical rate of once every 10-11 years, for shorter periods of time every 3-4 years, and this is due to currents from the Black Sea. But north of the strait itself, the Sea of ​​Azov freezes much more often and more strongly, so much so that the ice clogs the strait and this led to the destruction of the Crimean bridge in 1945, built during the war to supply the advancing troops. This is how it was in 1942, when the troops marched across the ice of the Kerch Strait:
                  Nowadays, few people know that in January 1942, during the Kerch-Feodosiya landing operation, the personnel and military equipment of the troops of the Transcaucasian Front moved from Taman to the Kerch Peninsula on their own, across the ice of the Kerch Strait.
                  In this way - not counting the crossing with the help of naval craft - 6 rifle and cavalry divisions, 2 rifle brigades, 15 anti-aircraft battalions, an artillery regiment, 3 automobile battalions, 3 road maintenance regiments and 11 airfield service battalions were transferred to the Crimea.

                  He himself witnessed the repeated freezing of the Kerch Strait even within the city limits, not to mention the region of the ferry and the village of Mayak.
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 30 May 2021 13: 09
                +3
                On ice. Winter trade and nomadic route. This can explain the concentration of the Greek city-states on the Kerchesky and Taman peninsulas.

                And not only on ice. The crossing of the Cimmerian Bosporus existed on a permanent basis. The truth about localization is still debated. The question is drawn to an independent article, though highly specialized.
        2. ccsr
          ccsr 30 May 2021 11: 21
          +3
          Quote: Konnick
          Crimea was not very convenient for nomads, the Kerch Strait was an obstacle, nomadic routes were mainly along the northern Black Sea coast, therefore there are so many ancient cities in such "dead ends" as the Kerch and Taman peninsulas.

          In general, I agree with your conclusion about the ancient settlements of the Crimea, but you do not take into account the fact that often the Kerch Strait completely froze over in winter and there was no problem for the nomads to cross over to Taman. And it was much more profitable than driving herds or horses around the Sea of ​​Azov. As for the Greek settlements, their choice is justified, in my opinion, primarily by the abundance of fish in the Kerch Strait and the ability to grow grapes and other agricultural crops in this region. As far as is known, the Greeks knew from the Cimmerians about this abundant region, which is why many cities and settlements arose there, and not in other regions of the Northern Black Sea region.
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 30 May 2021 11: 50
            +1
            And it was much more profitable than driving herds or horses around the Sea of ​​Azov

            It depends on whom, yes, from the Caucasus, but if you go around the Caspian from the north, then this is a big detour. The Greeks were more traders, at the excavations of Greek cities such as Kitai, Nympheus, in each house there were grain storage pits with a volume of 10-12 cubic meters. The Greeks resold grain to sailing merchants, and also engaged in handicrafts - rural implements, pottery for the local population. The collaboration was mutually beneficial. And on the eastern side, defensive ramparts were built to counter the nomads - Akmonaysky, Cimmerian and many more.
        3. Normal ok
          Normal ok 30 May 2021 21: 06
          +2
          Quote: Konnick
          The Scythians had cities, which means that the Scythians were not nomads.

          On the territory of Simferopol are the remains of the Scythian city of Naples Scythian. There is also a Scythian fortress Ak-Kaya on White Rock in the Belogorsk region, all these fortresses were surrounded by walls of 6 meters thick. If you look at the golden masterpieces of the Scythians, you cannot imagine that they, in a wagon, were made on the knee. These fortresses date back to the time of the Greek colonies. Well, the Greek colonies can now be called a "trading network", before climate change in the 6th century AD. Crimea was much more convenient for growing wheat and the Greeks bought grain from local farmers and resold it to Greece. The cooperation was mutually beneficial, so the Greek trading cities existed from the 6th century BC. until the 6th century A.D. Crimea was not very convenient for nomads, the Kerch Strait was an obstacle, nomadic routes were mainly along the northern Black Sea coast, therefore there are so many ancient cities in such "dead ends" as the Kerch and Taman peninsulas.

          I will add that the policy of Tire was quite large and developed (by the standards of the Black Sea region) there were at one time Roman troops (I personally participated in the excavation when they found evidence of the stationing of Roman troops (head of the explorer M. Kleiman) Roksolana, - a fairly large settlement in terms of excavation volume (By the way, coins of the 4th-5th centuries were found.) That is, the banks of the Dniester estuary were densely populated by Greeks and Romans even during the existence of the Roman Empire.
  2. nikvic46
    nikvic46 30 May 2021 06: 13
    +5
    I do not think that the colonization of the Black Sea coast took place only in military battles. To build cities up to the coast of Colchis, you need something else. And then Ancient Greece was not an empire. And then it is difficult to call Athens the capital of Ancient Greece. In many ways, the island ruled .. How would you call them.
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 07: 03
    +6
    Are there any data or assumptions about the ratio of the number of Greeks and nomadic tribes?

    It was always a little surprising: well-developed pioneers come - and no one lowers them back into the sea.

    Were there few nomadic tribes? Hospitality? Or: "- Let them live, Tavrida will not become poorer."
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 May 2021 07: 24
      +7
      "- Let them live, Tavrida will not become poorer."
      Shchazz!
      "- Come in large numbers here! Taurida is not rubber !!"
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 30 May 2021 07: 29
        +7
        “- Those who came are just big scientists. They have not calculated their strength. "
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 May 2021 07: 35
          +5
          I would like to draw your attention to the animal figurines decorating the comb below the main stage. This is for our recent discussion of ranges and chronological frameworks for the distribution of species.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 30 May 2021 08: 04
            +4
            I liked the comb very much. I would like to revise and revise.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 May 2021 08: 15
              +9

              From the same mound. Pure nomadic "animal" style, without any admixture of Hellenic cultural expansion. My photo.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 30 May 2021 08: 21
                +4
                They say that the remains of lions were found in Olbia. But the artist displayed the reality or the symbol - who knows.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 May 2021 08: 27
                  +7
                  Too many affirmations for symbols and too realistic images.

                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 30 May 2021 08: 29
                    +5
                    I agree. Realistic.

                    The meetings of civilizations are always interesting.
                  2. Engineer
                    Engineer 30 May 2021 09: 55
                    +4
                    This is an interesting topic.
                    A few additions.
                    The crest from the Solokha burial mound is uniquely Greek.
                    The silver vessel in the photo is most likely the same. The Greeks portrayed lions realistically and most likely they had lions in historical times.
                    The Scythians are more complicated. Their lions are either very static or very stylized, in contrast to the tigers, depicted in a crude but naturalistic way.
                    Here is the gorita lining from the Solokha burial mound

                    The lion looks very stylized.
                    It turns out that the Scythians most likely did not see lions, but saw images from Greece and Iran.
                    But then again the question is if Monomakh's "fierce beast" is still a lion, then how did they overlook such noticeable animals in the north of their range.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 04
                      +4
                      Denis! hi
                      Unfortunately, the place where the silver vessel was found was not indicated.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 May 2021 10: 07
                        +3
                        Solokha too
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 12
                      +2
                      But then again the question is if Monomakh's "fierce beast" is still a lion, then how did they overlook such noticeable animals in the north of their range.
                      Some "Pardus" probably were found

                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 May 2021 10: 15
                        +4
                        Leopards are mountain animals. Specifically, the "fierce beast" Monomakh is pulled with a big stretch.
                        But the Scythians knew the leopards 100%
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 20
                        +4
                        Maybe leopards?
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 May 2021 10: 21
                        +2
                        Leopards may be, but in general, lions are much more adaptive.
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 25
                        +2
                        There could be generally a local endemic that has now disappeared. Like the North African elephant subspecies.
                      5. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 May 2021 10: 28
                        +1
                        We are in the field of speculation
                        Special subspecies of elephants-lions-leopards are all quite far from science.
                        Although theoretically possible.
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 31
                        +2
                        But don't you think that Pyrrhus and Hannibal chased elephants from India?
                      7. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 May 2021 10: 36
                        +8
                        Pyrrhus rather yes
                        Hannibal of course not
                        There is no need to invent a third subspecies of African elephants. Moreover, without any reason. There are two subspecies forest and savanna. Lesnoy is quite tame and most likely he was with Hannibal.
                        Everything as this comrade bequeathed
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 May 2021 10: 49
                        +6
                        I am more inclined to say another comrade
                      9. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 May 2021 10: 57
                        +5
                        That's OK too.
                        But I heard the version about Loxodont Pharaoh for a long time and as far as I know there is no evidence at all. Although it would seem to find the backbone in North Africa and describe the phenotypic differences sufficient to isolate a new subspecies. So nothing was done.
                        What is bad about the African forest elephant as a candidate for Hannibal's army, I do not understand at all. Tameness is proven. Smaller not only savanna, but also Asian. All according to Mr. Polybius
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 May 2021 11: 31
                        +4
                        What is bad about the African forest elephant as a candidate for Hannibal's army, I do not understand at all
                        Probably nothing but the logistics of importing animals in marketable quantities from the center of the continent across the desert.
                      11. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 May 2021 11: 35
                        +4
                        Which is easier and more natural
                        Suppose that the forest elephant occupied a much wider range, including North Africa, or assume in this area the presence of a third subspecies about which nothing is known?
                      12. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 May 2021 11: 41
                        +2
                        It is easier and more natural to note that both theses are in the realm of conjecture.
            2. Normal ok
              Normal ok 31 May 2021 10: 02
              0
              Hannibal had African elephants.
      2. Liam
        Liam 30 May 2021 13: 56
        0
        Quote: Engineer
        Leopards may be, but in general, lions are much more adaptive.

        And why the wolf does not suit you for the role of a fierce beast.

        Everything as this comrade bequeathed
      3. Korsar4
        Korsar4 30 May 2021 15: 15
        +3
        The wolf was familiar. They called him a wolf. For the prince - not a reason for special mention.
      4. Liam
        Liam 30 May 2021 15: 17
        +3
        Quote: Korsar4
        The wolf was familiar. They called him a wolf. For the prince - not a reason for special mention.

        FB Uspensky has a different opinion on this matter.
        http://perstni.su/biblioonline/kto-zhe-on-lyutyj-zver
      5. Korsar4
        Korsar4 30 May 2021 15: 25
        +2
        I looked. Thank you. I'll read it carefully. But at the moment I do not share the position.
  4. Engineer
    Engineer 30 May 2021 15: 26
    +1
    Answered below to Michael.
    Leopard, wolf, lion, bear. No version is more convincing than the others.
  5. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 15: 32
    +1
    Undoubtedly, but there are more and less realistic. Leopards and lions are exotic too far-fetched by the tail, not justified by anything serious.
    Regarding the nature and diets of big and small cats, I also wrote to poor Mikhail. You still rarely do such unscientific amateur performance as you do today, but he is used to it)
  6. Engineer
    Engineer 30 May 2021 15: 39
    +1
    .Lelpards and lions - exotic too far-fetched by the tail, not justified by anything serious.

    Lions in Russia are gorgeous. It's enough. I want to believe and that's it.
    Well, be at least a little more tolerant. Why only malice. It turns out that you have a very limited field for discass. Nine yes me. And Mikhail is in any case better than the conventional Olgovich and, God forgive me, Bara
    You can practice your wit and on my account. Provided everyone with such an opportunity today.)
  7. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 15: 50
    -1
    You are more pessimistic about the quality of the VO contingent even than me)
    There is someone here to communicate productively. 90% of my posts-discussions are not at all with these two Persians, if that.
    As for the rest ... the smart are smart in different ways, and the stupid are equally stupid. So I don't really distinguish stupidity by nicknames.
  8. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 19: 11
    +2
    And where will it be scientific. Funny hypotheses, but not from a professional position.
    Although, with pleasure, you can pick up material for a humorous story.
    And interesting moments may appear.
    Even all predators can be seen.
    Here's the wolverine version - an interesting one.
  9. Mike_E
    Mike_E 30 May 2021 20: 45
    +2
    I'm ready to throw in the order of delirium - a cheetah. Leo needs a forest, a lion needs big prey. Leopard - mountains. But for the runner ... the steppe is quite))
  10. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 11
    +1
    Do you think about Chernigov then the steppe prevailed? I still imagine a forest formation.
  11. Mike_E
    Mike_E 30 May 2021 22: 36
    +2
    Well, there is a village Steppe in the modern Chernihiv region.)) But, nevertheless, it was a joke, in the spirit of the discussion channel. It is unlikely that Acinonyx pardinensis can be seriously considered.
  12. Korsar4
    Korsar4 31 May 2021 11: 30
    0
    Just about: the advance of the forest on the steppe and the steppe on the forest is one of the classic questions.
    It is interesting in this example, where was the border at that time.
  13. kamakama
    kamakama 1 June 2021 09: 16
    0

    Guess this is the coat of arms of which city? Who is depicted on it and was this creature found in its vicinity at least ever?
  14. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 11: 01
    +3
    My vote is for the leopard version.
  15. Engineer
    Engineer 30 May 2021 11: 09
    +1
    Even less likely given the leopard's habits. The version is definitely worse than the lion in my opinion. The leopard is very careful.
    If we admit the leopard, then the machine will have to admit the lion. It is more adaptive and always has a larger population in the case of identical areas.
    PS In Europe, lions in historical time were found. And the leopards?
  16. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 11: 17
    +3
    So I thought about comparing adaptability. Not sure. A leopard needs less forage area than a tiger or lion.
    Cold resistance is probably higher.
  17. Engineer
    Engineer 30 May 2021 11: 31
    +3
    No.
    Lions hunt more efficiently because in the pride
    In the middle lane, the leopard will be suppressed by bears, which also climb trees better than lions. At the same time, the standard bears of the middle lane would bypass the prides of lions for many kilometers.
    In Africa, even a solitary hyena usually takes prey from a leopard. In the middle lane, this will be done by a couple of wolves. Lions in winter could survive by themselves, taking prey from wolves, which a leopard can only dream of.
    The lion's cold resistance is very decent. Proven by American Lion and European Lion. The extinct European lion is a subspecies of modern according to the study of the genome. American - subspecies or closely related
    Leo is generally the most adaptive cat. Socialization works wonders.
    Shl Another fact. Of the large felines, the leopard and jaguar have the least developed brain.
  18. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 30 May 2021 12: 04
    +2
    Denis, in connection with your "lion apology" a question arises: why do Africans themselves consider leopards more dangerous animals than lions?
  19. Engineer
    Engineer 30 May 2021 12: 15
    +3
    1.temperament
    Lions are the most phlegmatic of the big cats. They're just quieter
    Leopards and tigers are thrown into the heat and into the cold. They are unpredictable. They attack for no reason and run away for no reason.
    2. Lions are socially smarter (only socially, the tiger is smarter and more cunning in general). Over the centuries of coexistence with humans, they are the only ones who have learned not to violate the boundaries of human space.
    Examples of mass
    Two lionesses disagree with mopedists without any aggression

    A lioness with cubs (!) Without any aggression lets a person through, taking the children away
  20. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 30 May 2021 12: 29
    +3
    Hmm. With a bear, this number would not work ...
  21. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 12: 54
    +1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Hmm. With a bear, this number would not work ...


    A good selection of videos can prove anything and its opposite.
  22. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 30 May 2021 13: 19
    +2
    The first video leaves the impression that the bear herself is in a panic from what is happening.
  23. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 13: 22
    0
    And panic and fear are the main motive for aggressive behavior of animals.
  24. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 May 2021 14: 45
    +3
    Anton, here, most likely, the point is precisely in danger for a person. The main diet of lions is ungulates, leopards are primates. smile
  25. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 30 May 2021 14: 50
    +2
    Michael! hi
    The second most dangerous animal, Africans consider the hippopotamus.
  26. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 May 2021 15: 06
    +3
    I heard about it somewhere.
    Hippos are nervous and aggressive animals, while they live in water, and water in Africa is paramount. Willy-nilly, you have to approach them. Maybe that's why.
    And as for the leopard, then, unlike the lion, he hunts for people exactly.
  27. Engineer
    Engineer 30 May 2021 15: 27
    +3
    Nosorg # 1.
    Talked to the rangers in Masai Mara. He attacks like a buffalo without warning
    Buffalo "No. 2
  28. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 15: 39
    +2
    What is characteristic is that all the animals mentioned are herbivores and no primates, including those hanging out in the VO, are included in their diet.
    In vain the poor leopard was slandered
  29. Engineer
    Engineer 30 May 2021 15: 46
    +3
    For a long time I believed that the leopard is the most dangerous of cats.
    Leopard from Rudraprayag
    Panar cannibal.
    Then critical thinking appeared. Who counted? how did you think?
    These are beautiful legends .. Though scary. People do not part with them for a long time.
    Undoubtedly, the leopard can be very dangerous and I personally choose to face the lion.
  30. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 15: 57
    +3
    I was interested in your dispute about the danger of animals. I already knew that lions / leopards were not even in the top twenty of the rating. I was sure that the undisputed leaders are pets. Namely, dogs. But the reality turned out to be even more unexpected.

  31. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 19: 13
    +2
    And more than sharks and snakes, people die from falling coconuts.
  32. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 May 2021 18: 01
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    Nosorg # 1.

    This is if we talk about the savannah. For some reason, Africa is represented primarily by it. But there are not so many leopards in the savannah when compared to the equatorial jungle - the main population of leopards lives there. And there, just, leopards are considered the most dangerous predators for humans.
  33. Mike_E
    Mike_E 30 May 2021 20: 50
    0
    What do the rangers say about elephants? Savannah, I saw, is also not a gift. In general, it turns out that herbivores are more aggressive towards people?
  34. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 15: 04
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Anton, here, most likely, the point is precisely in danger for a person. The main diet of lions is ungulates, leopards are primates. smile

    This is a scientific sensation, however. Poor zoologists lagged behind your advanced theories and for some reason they believe that
    Leopard diet

    All representatives of the genus Panther and the Leopard species are typical predators, and their diet includes mainly ungulates in the form of antelopes, deer and roe deer. During periods of lack of food, predatory mammals are quite capable of switching to rodents, birds, monkeys and reptiles. In some years, leopard attacks on livestock and dogs have been reported.

    Important! Without being disturbed by humans, leopards rarely attack humans. Such cases are most often recorded when a wounded predator confronts an inadvertently approaching hunter.

    Wolves and foxes often become the prey of a large predator, and if necessary, leopards do not disdain carrion and can steal prey from some other predatory animals. Like other big cat species, leopards prefer to hunt alone, waiting in ambush or sneaking up on their prey.
  35. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 May 2021 15: 20
    +1
    I absolutely do not want to communicate with you, regardless of the reason. If you insist, I’ll go over to the individual. That's all I wanted to say.
  36. Liam
    Liam 30 May 2021 15: 26
    0
    ))))
    A wall has grown between us
    And this is completely your fault.
    Bridges are blown up between us
    And that's all you have achieved.

    Chorus:
    Do not come to me!
    I'm offended, I'm offended
    Once and forever.
    Do not come to me!
    I'm offended, I'm offended
    Don't ever come near again


    It's not my fault that you write mostly epic nonsense and pseudo-Pestrosyan's trash. Even the leopards felt offended)
  37. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 May 2021 16: 17
    +1
    You know, sometimes you are walking around the city and suddenly from some basement it starts to rot. Unpleasant, but not fatal. I am not offended by such basements. I do not take offense at you either.
    I just hate your presence and want to keep it to a minimum for myself.
    Now I do not see your comments so often that I react to them and it suits me. Try to show yourself with your "cleverness" more often - maybe you will be able to provoke me. laughing
    In the meantime, read my "epic nonsense", you yourself, apart from small abominations, can not create anything. smile
  38. Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 15: 10
    +2
    Here is the undeveloped brain of a leopard and could allow the prince to attack.
  39. Mike_E
    Mike_E 30 May 2021 20: 47
    0
    Kipling, then, was mistaken about Bagheera.))
  40. kamakama
    kamakama 1 June 2021 09: 17
    0

    Coat of arms of Pskov. For reflection
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 11: 00
    +3
    I do not believe that the lion - both in time and in the estimated range at that time. However, we periodically return to this "fierce beast" in discussions on similar topics.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 30 May 2021 11: 02
      +2
      And what is, according to your version, its presumptive range at that time?
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 30 May 2021 11: 14
      +3
      Initially (if such a word can be used), the Asiatic lion was also represented in the Caucasus and the Mediterranean. But by the XNUMXth century, he was clearly far from the Chernigov principality, if at all he went there.
    3. Engineer
      Engineer 30 May 2021 11: 17
      +2
      Accepted without question.
      And now the leopard's range?
    4. Korsar4
      Korsar4 30 May 2021 11: 18
      +4
      I must leave now. If possible, I'll unsubscribe a little later.
    5. depressant
      depressant 30 May 2021 12: 17
      +5
      In fact, in the Crimean steppe, lions were already found, but in prehistoric times. Somehow they ended up on the peninsula in the early Pleistocene. According to some scientific data, a cave subspecies of a lion settled here, sort of like a close relative of the modern African. However, other scientists argue that cave lions are a completely different branch of the predatory beast and have no genetic connection with modern representatives. Presumably, lions disappeared from the Crimea in the late Pleistocene, possibly the Holocene.
      The cave lion was larger than the current ones. Archaeologists have found seven places where the skeletons of ancient lions were discovered. It follows that the climatic conditions and nature were favorable for the habitation of cave lions in this area. It can be assumed that the lions preferred to live in open spaces, in the steppes and forest-steppes, rested in karst caves, and hunted in bush thickets.
      Then, apparently, it became colder, they died out. Or maybe they migrated south)))
    6. Konnick
      Konnick 30 May 2021 12: 21
      +2
      Then, apparently, it became colder, they died out. Or maybe they migrated south)))

      The lion population is now reborn laughing , only in the Taigan Park there are already 60 lions.
    7. depressant
      depressant 30 May 2021 12: 27
      +3
      I guess this is the safari park that has a lot of videos on Zen. There is such a friendship between the lions and the guy, their teacher! They take him for the main thing. laughing )))
    8. Konnick
      Konnick 30 May 2021 12: 36
      +4
      They take him for the main thing. laughing
      From infancy, he brings up lions with a slipper, those who show aggression are sold to zoos. Zubkov is the leader of two prides. I was there in the fall two years ago, I really liked this park.
    9. depressant
      depressant 30 May 2021 13: 05
      +4
      Here are the safari parks I admit.
      There, visitors either look at the animals from behind the fence, or from a special bridge, from above. And it is very painful to watch lions and tigers in the circus, I know they are trained with pain, their instincts are broken, which is humiliating for animals, but unworthy for humans. Therefore, I never went to the circus, only on TV. I hope someday wild animal circuses will cease to exist.
    10. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 May 2021 13: 26
      +1
      "Du Solley" is yours, Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
    11. depressant
      depressant 30 May 2021 13: 48
      +2
      Anton, good afternoon!))))
      You cannot imagine with what pleasure I once watched Litsedeev and du Soleil, of course, on TV. Polunin is something!
    12. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 May 2021 14: 03
      +1
      Hello!
      About Polunin - I agree that not many actors and entertainers have the talent to play in the circus arena.
    13. depressant
      depressant 30 May 2021 14: 09
      +2
      It was actually a scene. A lot of techniques were used to create the illusion of a winter landscape, glowing windows, snowfall, wind ... Fabulous!
    14. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 May 2021 14: 13
      +1
      Well, he also worked with "Du Soleil".
    15. depressant
      depressant 30 May 2021 14: 43
      +2
      I didn `t know about it. It's even hard to imagine how they combined. Well, it worked, and okay. I haven't watched TV for a long time. So much so that even my favorite parade could hardly endure - it takes so long not to tear myself away from the screen, and there is still no advertising wassat )))
  • Konnick
    Konnick 30 May 2021 13: 27
    +1
    Here are the safari parks I admit.

    Lions also recognize this - the birth rate there is at a good level.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 13: 51
    +2
    I'm happy for the lions! )))
    Such a care for a person wassat )))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 15: 07
    +3
    Any animals in the circus are terrible. I agree with Jack London.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 16: 07
    +2
    People do not see the wings, and many do not even think that the wings exist.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 19: 02
    +1
    Moreover, in all areas of activity.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 15: 07
    +2
    Was six years ago. Probably liked the park. But it makes you think about a lot.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 16: 08
    +2
    About a lot - to embrace the immensity, the main thing will have to be highlighted.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 19: 03
    +1
    It's not all that simple there. In the carve-up of the territory, the lions die.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 19: 39
    +1
    Yes, I had to see in the videos how they interlock with each other, there is real aggression. A teacher arriving in time by car accelerates them and shames them. But this is if it has time. He cannot predict every moment of exacerbation of relations between animals. And this is bad. Lviv should be shown to tourists, which means that the density of the lion population in the park should be such that at least one animal is within sight of tourists. But when she is like that, aggression begins. But there is a calculated standard habitat for one pride. Is this standard observed in the park? I don’t think so.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 20: 15
    +1
    There, many lions have their own history of appearance. And the eternal division of resources between old and young lions.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 20: 40
    +2
    Well, how's the carve-up?
    They are probably being fed. They look well-fed.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 09
    +1
    Competition is not determined by meat alone. There were cases when young people were simply killed.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 15
    +2
    Well, lions do it. Regardless of the size of the territory. Several young people are expelled by the leader. We must find females in another pride, organize our own. Life of a lion is hard! Even taking into account that lionesses mainly hunt))))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 17
    +1
    Installed. But I'm not sure what it should be in Taigan.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 30
    +2
    Can't keep up? Or maybe they do it on purpose. Indeed, the number of lions is enough to attract tourists, and the latter is not increasing. And the number of lions is increasing, they need to be fed.
    People are cruel.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 41
    +1
    I do not know. We don't look behind the scenes.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 46
    +2
    Yes, the wings here seem to be transparent. Lviv is really a pity. Yesterday on the video I watched hyenas hunt an old lion - such an organization of the attack, they surround it according to plan and are not afraid of anything! Lioness dispersed wassat
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 48
    +1
    Sorry for everyone. Mikhail Shcherbakov has the song "In Memory of All". I don’t know how you look.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 55
    +1
    I'll go and listen now.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 22: 09
    +2
    I listened. For some reason, she introduced Felix Yusupov as singing. Strange, isn't it? I'm not close. I’m such a creature, if a tragedy, then the power of Shakespeare, Beethoven or, at worst, Vivaldi, so that it stuns and penetrates - everything is on the emotions that penetrate me. And this seems to be easy, but with a deep connotation, they do not affect me)))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 1 June 2021 15: 03
    +1
    But the best way to come to me is “to visit”: as you put it: “easy, but with subtext”.
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 19: 04
    +1
    I apologize for not responding in time. There, our Olegovich nested on Opinions, I am important to him, I scribbled comments with puffy cheeks and, along the way, read the Strugatskys to restore peace of mind)))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 1 June 2021 19: 07
    +1
    Not scary at all. Another small feat - and it's time to move home.
    If there is a good thought, it will not be lost. If it is convincing and painful, it will repeat itself.
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 19: 20
    +1
    A good thought should be written down immediately. Remaining in the mind, it unwittingly undergoes refinements, alterations, loses its original brilliance, and sometimes even meaning. And then you remember: how did she, that thought, look at first?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 1 June 2021 20: 07
    +1
    So I do it. There is a piece of paper in my pocket. There is a notebook in the bag.
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 20: 22
    +1
    Yes, otherwise, before you have time to look around, you find that the wind whistles in your head and the echo rings wassat )))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 1 June 2021 21: 43
    +1
    “They will find: there is fog in the brain,
    In a pocket - a fig "(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 21: 49
    +1
    "You are some kind of stupid, sick, forgive me! Some kind of you, by God, carefree, I tell you: come tomorrow !!! And you have been walking all summer today." (C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 1 June 2021 21: 54
    +1
    Is it folk Or someone's?
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 22: 14
    +1
    People's))))
    This style is not peculiar to me, it is bureaucratic. But in life I had to deal with this. Previously, the official at least understood the meaning of the service he refused me. The current one often does not understand the meaning. That's where the fog is.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 1 June 2021 22: 39
    +1
    And you can still remain carefree.
  • depressant
    depressant 1 June 2021 23: 00
    +1
    Now the degree of carelessness is determined by the degree of unemployment.
    From the actual.
    "Half past six in the morning.
    Two janitors meet.
    One looks at the other for a long time and suddenly says:
    - You have a familiar face.
    And the second in response:
    - What bank did you work in?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 June 2021 06: 47
    +1
    “You got half of the loaf for food,
    The poor dwelling has warmed you.
    You are nobody's slave and nobody's master, -
    Truly your friend is lucky ”(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 2 June 2021 09: 59
    +2
    "Such are the vicissitudes of fate. With obvious, visible malignancy There are people who are greedy from greed. There are people who are greedy from poverty" (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 June 2021 12: 08
    +2
    Reminded from "Date Tutashkhia": different ways of removing a cannibal from a rat.
  • depressant
    depressant 2 June 2021 12: 40
    +1
    And there are no man-eating rats! Driven out by a stronger predator wassat )))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 June 2021 13: 54
    +1
    There is. I really like “Date Tutashkhia”.
  • depressant
    depressant 2 June 2021 14: 35
    +2
    I read it as a child. I couldn't keep it in my head. There was something dreary about the story. The hero was hiding in the forests, among which he lived at that time. They were boring, these forests, and people from the time of the hero lived next to them. They haven't changed.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 June 2021 17: 34
    +1
    Beech forests are rarely boring. The characters in the book are superbly drawn.
  • depressant
    depressant 2 June 2021 18: 01
    +2
    The oak forests of the Far East are not boring. With their abundance of mushrooms, streams, murmuring in the tunnels formed by the closed branches of trees, here and there along the banks - irises, locust lilies, in cheerful glades - bushes of peonies. And the silence that shelters this world with chipmunks and foxes.
    The painful heat on the edges and the deathly dampness inside the gloomy Caucasian forests, along which one must not walk, but climb up the rocky paths, shuddering from the cold, quickly get bored.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 June 2021 21: 28
    +1
    What landscape sketches. For me, the forests of the Far East: and coniferous-deciduous forests - Korean cedars and a variety of broad-leaved species and, to the north, larch forests. And separately: spruce and fir forests.
  • depressant
    depressant 2 June 2021 21: 42
    +2
    The most educated and mutually polite people when they meet are mushroom pickers. Everyone understands: there is a forest around, the opponent has a knife! wassat )))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 June 2021 21: 58
    0
    "Politeness is the thief's best weapon" (c).
  • depressant
    depressant 2 June 2021 22: 05
    +2
    Aha! ((( laughing )))
    A polite thief doesn't even interrupt tattoos.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 2 June 2021 23: 24
    +1
    "What is my (or rather your) tattoo
    Much better and prettier than him ”(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 00: 15
    +2
    The wrath of the Sun is over. Not because it went beyond the horizon, but because the piece of plasma that flew up from it to us yesterday, all day today, reacting with the Earth's magnetic field, is partly reflected, partly moved further, bending around the planet, our magnetic field calmed down - we survived! It was the strongest magnetic storm in many previous years.
    I thought it was the end of me.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 00: 25
    +1
    How do you feel it.
    One of the heaviest books. I could not even finish reading - Shmelev "The Sun of the Dead".
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 07: 09
    +2
    I got interested. I'll try to read, maybe I can master it. You know, I don’t like all this modern literature of allegorical realism. Because I'm not there. There is a reality of characters from the inner circle of the writers themselves.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 07: 21
    +1
    Very interesting. Will you internally oppose Shmeleva?
    "The Lord's Summer" and "Praying Mantis" are filled with joy.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 07: 52
    +2
    I won't. Sergei, I am a believer, but I have my own relationship with the Lord. They are not expressed by worship of icons. They also do not fill me with constant reverence for Him. I am not one of the believers, I am one of those who know that He exists - it was given to know. I do not bother with prayers, only occasionally, in extreme, desperate situations, I ask for help. I do not have the audacity to torment the Lord with a constant reminder of myself, my beloved. We are familiar with Him, He is infinitely kind.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 07: 24
    +2
    It's good that I read the annotation.
    There was such a chemist - Mikhail Tsvet. Once I found a big article about him in "Secrets of the XX century". Developed a chromatography method. Further, for a century, the whole world has been using the method of genius. He died of hunger in the Crimea. This, apparently, is the time that Shmelev writes about. I will not read. I suffered while reading an article in "Secrets". For it is familiar from life.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 09: 00
    +1
    Yes. It's good that you read it. This is the time.
    And also Shmelev's son was killed. He does not say a word about it, but every line is riddled with pain.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 09: 35
    +2
    You know, now is the time when many people's lives are filled with pain for their children. And whatever a person says publicly about it on the forums (where else is the tribune for an ordinary citizen?), It is useless. Those who dragged us into the maelstrom of moral and mental suffering were themselves drawn into the irresistible maelstrom of history. Many of them are consciously. The difference is that we cannot do anything for ourselves in our individual whirlpools, and their historical whirlpool allows them to collect their silver pieces and even be happy at the expense of the arranged future of children.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 15: 14
    +1
    Is it possible to look confidently into the future?
    Parents can contribute to the education of children.
    And then - their character, and the opportunity to be realized.
    Often - in spite of the general situation.
    And there are more than enough surprises in life.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 15: 36
    +1
    It's all true. And now you are jealous of the animals. The cat will give its life for the baby. A little older, already forgotten - the time for a new litter is approaching.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 16: 11
    +1
    To be jealous of animals it is necessary to represent their life in detail. And this is not easy.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 16: 41
    +1
    It is impossible to imagine the life of even a loved one in details. The observer's consciousness singles out only those of them that, speaking in the language of physics, establish an affinity for the observer and thereby contribute to the establishment of spiritual comfort in a relationship. Or those that contradict the affinity. The subconscious mind analyzes and gives a signal, unfortunately, often in an implicit form, such that either confirms the comfort of the relationship, or gives a signal of the resulting discomfort. But we do not understand the signals, we deceive ourselves, as a trader and a buyer in the market, but in one person. This one for himself, that one for himself.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 19: 03
    +1
    You have thought a lot on this topic. But you can still judge by actions. Although not only the result is important, but also the road to it.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 19: 09
    +1
    Each action has two motives: secret and explicit. The more complex a person is, the more secret there is in him, and it will not be possible to judge him by obvious actions.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 20: 51
    +1
    Why two and not more? A new quality in a person is a new facet.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 21: 16
    +1
    Yeah, shades of soul wassat )))
    I suppose you would like to hear that at heart, all people are good. But I will disappoint you, many in the soul - shallow.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 21: 41
    +1
    I do not know how to look at the soul and make diagnoses. But the sun shines on everyone.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 21: 47
    +1
    They say that there are people like the sun - such an intensity of spiritual warmth. Enough for everyone. I have not met.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 22: 12
    +1
    Met. Although, this is a subjective opinion.

    https://stihi.ru/2008/12/26/1988
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 22: 52
    +1
    And people just want warmth ...

    Korsar4

    And people just want warmth
    And if not in the fireplace, then in a glass.
    The line between "frosty" and "burn to the ground"
    Hiding in the fog, and intoxicating.

    I walk in the cold - to find spring.
    I am looking in the dark - to see a ray of light.
    Questions hang: "Why?"
    And again the answers pass by.

    A pensive poet ... Heartfelt and disturbing.
    Poets wander around the world,
    They are looking for answers, they find slander.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 22: 56
    +1
    Think it's better to think less?
    This is when it is time to act.
    Combining is not so common.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 June 2021 23: 04
    +1
    The ability to think with a tinge of doubt is either given or not given at all. It does not depend on the will of a person, only on the natural structure of the brain and is present to one degree or another in the overwhelming majority of people.
    Are you aware that there are 9 types of intelligence?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 June 2021 23: 35
    +1
    Not. I heard that the Greeks singled out four types of love.
    And these intelligences do not quarrel among themselves?
  • depressant
    depressant 4 June 2021 00: 19
    +1
    Quarreling. These are the views:

    natural (naturalistic);
    musical;
    logical and mathematical;
    existential (philosophical);
    kinesthetic (bodily);
    interpersonal (social);
    spatial (figurative);
    linguistic (verbal);
    personal (internal).

    It is already late today, but tomorrow it will be possible to talk about them somewhere. The topic is extremely interesting, as it helps to understand what kind of person you have to deal with and what claims should be made to him, and which are pointless)))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 4 June 2021 02: 39
    +1
    First thought: a monkey from a well-known anecdote appears, which cannot decide: its nature is philosophical, or mathematical.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 15: 06
    +2
    Thank you for not being released as bison yet. But the prides are already dividing the territory. And tough.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 16: 11
    +2
    Presented: the lions were released. And here - tourists. And where in Crimea is a national park possible?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 19: 05
    +1
    In the Crimean yayls.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 19: 41
    +2
    On the plateaus, you mean? But don't the locals graze their livestock there? At least, in the days of the foothill Scythians-Taurs it was so.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 20: 17
    +1
    The national park does not mean the mandatory release of lions.
    Crimea is still far from the Far East.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 20: 47
    +2
    Sure! Here the surface on which you can move without the help of mountain equipment is not so great, mountain ranges, which are even distinguished by numbers. And on which it is possible without it, so houses, vineyards, orchards. They are fighting for the land there. It's one thing - a fox in a vineyard, another - a lion's face climbs out from behind a vine wassat )))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 12
    +1
    Fable from Lyudmila Yakovlevna with Crimean ornament.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 18
    +2
    Yeah. Hungry lion and grapes. So there is a tourist in the assortment! wassat )))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 20
    +1
    This is already based on the cartoon "Madagascar".
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 33
    +2
    You are a cartoon lover! )))
    Once I also adored, but now I don't want to watch anything. Critical thinking (it would have done it this way and it differently, etc.) deprives the new of novelty, hence pleasure.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 43
    +1
    Probably not. It's just that a critical mass of conversations is brewing - and I'm watching a fragment.
    And it becomes clear the origin of the phrase: "Smile and wave!".
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 51
    +2
    Another point: you watch the beginning or read it, and it is already clear what will happen at the end. And then you start looking for something that has artistic value. And since in our time there is almost no such thing, then, not finding what you are looking for, you just read or watch an entertaining action.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 22: 46
    +1
    Tasting method.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 15: 05
    +2
    But I think that the northern border of the range of a lion and a leopard are comparable. Only a lion could gravitate towards the steppes. And the leopard and forest vegetation too.

    But what was the forest cover of the Chernigov principality, and how bison and other ungulates interfered with the renewal of the forest, one might think.

    OV Smirnova argues that from woolly rhinos to bison were allies of the steppe's advance on the forest.

    But I do not agree with everything. At least then these woolly rhinos and others should be studied.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 19: 29
    +2
    Are you so worried about leopards?
    North Caucasus, Central Asia, Kazakhstan as habitats very remote in time. In the Caucasus, they were ruthlessly knocked out, and not so long ago by historical standards.
    Imperceptibly stored in the memory, seemingly unnecessary information surfaced and forced to clarify the date of the beginning of the revival of the leopard population in the Caucasus - mentally I was still in his captivity. It was 2006! We decided to make 5 habitats, such that communication corridors accessible to leopards would form between them. To date, 4 pairs of leopards have been brought in the Krasnodar Territory. They were being prepared for release. But just the other day, sad news came - I happened to read in Yandex that one of the females died. They even called the name, but I can't remember.
    And nowhere have I found any mention of the fact that at least in ancient times leopards were found in the Crimea. Perhaps wandering around?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 19: 41
    +1
    Not so much. Now they talk a lot about the Far East.

    But today Denis (Engineer) suggested the idea of ​​habitats.

    And immediately the thought - to compare the areas of all applicants for the "fierce beast".

    And if someone else conducted pollen studies near Chernigov, you can get an idea of ​​the nature of the forests.

    Not a bad first brick for the reign of Monomakh.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 19: 47
    +1
    Yes, I also happened to read about the breeding of the Far Eastern as incidental information about the dead leopard. And the first thing that came to mind was the Chinese! Thinking stereotype?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 20: 21
    +1
    I do not know. Our colleagues had to deal with the habitats of the Amur tigers and Far Eastern leopards.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 20: 53
    +2
    In short, the Chinese and our poachers who trade with the Chinese. At one time in the press, I remember, there was a cry when there was still a press. They say, they will kill the animal, the paws are chopped off, the carcass is thrown. For the paws. Tiger, bear - cursed Chinese medicine! I love their paintings, figurines, I don’t like them.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 15
    +1
    Philosophy is good. Especially the followers of Lao Tzu. Four Chinese beauties. Peonies and tree peonies. Chinese cuisine. Bamboo. Pandas. And a lot of interesting things.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 24
    +2
    I have a Chinese figurine, 30 centimeters high. Chinese girl with a fan, top dress - pink. It is hidden forever in some kind of box, because there is nothing to put it on. There was a flat Chinese silk fan, a landscape, a bone handle with an inscription. The handle turned yellow, the silk decayed with old age and crumbled to dust. Future archaeologists will begin to guess over the handle - what is it? If it does not decay too)))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 30
    +1
    He brought fans as a gift. But these are massive fans for massive gifts.
    Of course the tea is wonderful.
    I don't understand anything about pearls, but I also bought for the company.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 42
    +2
    Pearls ... There was a string. Girlfriends have come to my mother, take her and give her one. I managed to hide the earrings. wassat )))
    No, there are many things that amaze me in China. How many rollers have seen with glass bridges! These gigantic cities of theirs, endless evening shopping streets - all this is vitality incomprehensible to reason, titanic power, this world, living in a different rhythm, everything is alien. Perhaps from a subconscious conviction that we are tired.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 21: 46
    +1
    Morning market. Evening markets, where everything is edible, even insects.
    Areas where many people do physical education.

    And in the morning - you run out for a run: and there are already battles in front of the basketball hoops.

    By the way, the "Park of Tigers" in Harbin also makes an impression.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 21: 54
    +2
    Maybe their climate is different? Food? There is something that encourages internal combustion.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 30 May 2021 22: 48
    +1
    As in one aphorism: "Man is what he eats."
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 22: 53
    +2
    Or are we afraid to admit to ourselves that they have the Stalinist principle of economic management in action? After all, then, in those days, we also burned. However, okay. Let's not talk about sad things.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 31 May 2021 05: 52
    +1
    Dangerous parallels. Analogies, though, may be a better way to understand what's going on.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 May 2021 14: 52
    +3
    Quote: Engineer
    if Monomakh's "fierce beast" is still a lion

    Interesting research on this.
    http://genling.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000021/st025.shtml
    In short, the author (philologist) believes that the "fierce beast" is a bear, concluding his research with the following words:
    Thus, the peculiarities of ancient punctuation, data from zoology and historical zoogeography allow us to consider the phrase fierce beast by Vladimir Monomakh as free and consider it a paraphrase to the word bear of the previous sentence.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 30 May 2021 15: 24
      +3
      Familiar with this
      Choose a fierce beast to your taste)
      "Fierce Beast" - a wolf according to Uspensky
      https://iling.spb.ru/tronsky7/205.pdf
      Fierce Beast - Lion
      file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/FoxBrother/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D0%B8%20%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%8B/Downloads/sskbru_2011_2011_23.pdf
      Painting of St. Sophia Cathedral


      http://sofiyskiy-sobor.polnaya.info/bashni_sofiyskogo_sobora.shtml
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 30 May 2021 15: 53
      +2
      I agree, there can be no definite answer.
      It's just that this point of view and its justification seemed to me more original and ... fresh, or something.
      Tigers, lions, leopards, woks, lynxes have come across before, someone even considered the version with a wolverine, but the bear has not met. smile
      Wolverine, by the way, is also the original version, but now I have not found this material.
    3. Korsar4
      Korsar4 30 May 2021 19: 07
      +1
      Wolverine, of course, is crazy. But, all the same, we guess on the coffee grounds.
  • Normal ok
    Normal ok 31 May 2021 10: 01
    0
    I worked in Olbia, the lions are a legend.
  • Xenofont
    Xenofont 30 May 2021 09: 24
    +2
    The Greeks did anything to order, the craftsmen were such that today's jewelers cannot reproduce some of the details of the jewelry. For example, the famous pendant with Athena is decorated with hollow gold balls, which is a shock to specialists.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 30 May 2021 10: 01
      +4
      A story told by a guide in the "golden storeroom" of the Hermitage.
      At the beginning of the 20th century, Faberge jewelers tried to revive the gold filigree. It was necessary to solder the golden bunches of 4 tiny balls in a pyramid and solder each bunch to the base. We only got to the penultimate step - when trying to solder the fourth ball into three soldered ones, everything collapsed.
  • depressant
    depressant 30 May 2021 11: 48
    +3
    I liked the comb very much. I would like to revise and revise.

    Really! Pay attention to the shield on the right, it's striped! How is it done without optics? Once a familiar jeweler, the first thing he did was put on an eyepiece)))
  • Normal ok
    Normal ok 31 May 2021 02: 13
    0
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    "- Let them live, Tavrida will not become poorer."
    Shchazz!
    "- Come in large numbers here! Taurida is not rubber !!"

    laughing
  • Maki Avellevich
    Maki Avellevich 30 May 2021 09: 44
    +2
    Quote: Korsar4
    It was always a little surprising: well-developed pioneers come - and no one lowers them back into the sea.

    Were there few nomadic tribes? Hospitality? Or: "- Let them live, Tavrida will not become poorer."

    advanced settlers only held on if they had advanced weapons and battle tactics.
    others were usually not included in history, but I am sure that there were many unsuccessful colonizers in the world.
  • Xlor
    Xlor 30 May 2021 07: 59
    +3
    "With the barbarians, every Greek was and will be in eternal war, for it is not something changeable and temporary, but an immutable law of nature that makes them harbor mutual enmity" (c) smile
  • Luminman
    Luminman 30 May 2021 08: 13
    +2
    I remember that the father of history, Herodotus, got in some Black Sea tavern in the face from some drunken Scythian. And this is not a historical myth
  • Undecim
    Undecim 30 May 2021 09: 43
    +3
    Features of the symbiosis of the Greco-barbarian ethnic groups of the Northern Black Sea region

    Сonclusion

    1. Xlor
      Xlor 30 May 2021 09: 54
      0
      The pants, in my opinion, are from the Huns, not from the Scythians ...
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 30 May 2021 12: 54
        +3
        Pants in my opinion from the Huns

        You're wrong. The Greeks met the Scythians at least a thousand years earlier than the Huns.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 May 2021 13: 39
          +2
          Gauls and Celts are also difficult to suspect of Hunnic influence.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 30 May 2021 13: 14
    +3
    Comb from Solokha (IV century BC). One of the striking examples of the mixing of the cultural traditions of the Greeks and Scythians


    Sarmatian diadem from Khokhlach (I-II century). A vivid example of the mutual influence of the cultural traditions of the Greeks and Sarmatians.
  • Operator
    Operator 30 May 2021 17: 38
    -6
    Author - article about what?
    If the fact that colonists and locals have undergone cultural divergence after 1000 years of mutual contacts, then this is a no brainer.
    And if the fact that nomads are still nomads, then the vocational school approves laughing
    1. PhilipKDick
      30 May 2021 20: 56
      +2
      Hello. Your question is not entirely clear.
      Do you want to do some educational or enlightening thought?
      I hope you are not trying to close the void in communication with meaningless comments.
      Thanks for the feedback.
      1. Operator
        Operator 30 May 2021 21: 07
        -5
        Yes, not at all.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • bzbo
    bzbo 1 June 2021 00: 33
    0
    Dorians, Macedonians, Pontic Greeks, the same R1a as the Scythians, only some forest, others steppe. There was only one language, roughly understandable. The Greeks did not consider the Scythians 1. They were not considered barbarians, 2. They did not consider them not equal. Scythians. they clearly knew who the Dorians were, the Macedonians where they came from, and so on. They could enter into alliances.
    1. PhilipKDick
      1 June 2021 13: 37
      0
      Hello. Thank you for your feedback. What is the data based on?
      Thank you.