Military Review

Polish expert: If the Bayraktar TB2 UAVs were acquired as means of destruction of Russian equipment, then it is unclear how they will withstand the air defense of the Russian Federation

102

Polish military experts comment on the decision of the country's authorities to purchase Bayraktar TB2 strike-reconnaissance drones from Turkey. Observer Jacek Szyminski writes that this decision of the official Warsaw came as a complete surprise to the Polish expert community. It is noted that earlier the Ministry of Defense of Poland did not express their intentions to conclude a contract with Ankara, and suddenly there was evidence that an agreement for the purchase of Bayraktar had already been signed.


Polish military expert Michal Gaisler from New Military Equipment believes that the acquisition of Bayraktar drones is evidence that the Polish Defense Ministry is unwilling to spend funds on R&D.

From Michal Geisler's statement published by Aviationist:

Research and development (R&D) costs in Poland are very low. This hinders the development of our industry. It is unlikely that private or public organizations will finance R&D from their own financial reserves, autonomously. Polish business cannot do it on its own.

According to the Polish expert, the purchase of the Bayraktar TB2 UAV only aggravates this situation. It was noted that instead of their own developments, the country's authorities decided to focus on the import of weapons and military equipment, "including those that could be created in Poland itself."

Geisler:

The Ministry of Defense has chosen the easiest path, but only where will it eventually lead ...

The expert notes that in this case, Warsaw will depend on the Turkish manufacturer.

Other Polish analysts point out the lack of a systematic approach in the procurement of weapons by the Ministry of Defense. It is noted that "they want to buy everything at once, from different suppliers." So, the publication recalled that Poland wants to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighters from the Americans.

Michal Pekarski (Security Researcher at the University of Wroclaw):

We have our own industrial capacities, why was it necessary to buy a Bayraktar TB2 UAV from Turkey? They are not even integrated into the Polish weapons system. We are building a multi-domain environment, but in the end it turns out that the platform will be isolated from other components.

The expert notes that if Bayraktar TB2 were acquired as a means of destroying Russian equipment, then it is unclear how they will withstand Russian air defense systems.

Pekarsky:

The question arises: did the representatives of our Ministry of Defense conduct an analysis of what exactly and in what conditions the Bayraktars were used during the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh? It seems that the conclusions about the need to purchase were made for the reason that now it is fashionable.

According to the Polish military expert David Kamizela, the Polish Ministry of Defense clearly did not take into account the important aspect of the use of the Bayraktar UAV by the Azerbaijani troops. He notes that with the help of these attack drones, it was possible to destroy the Pantsir air defense missile system of the Armenian forces in Karabakh only because these complexes were used individually, and not in a single air defense system.
Photos used:
Baykar (Turkey)
102 comments
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  1. Chertkov Oleg
    Chertkov Oleg 24 May 2021 07: 27
    +20
    it is unclear how they will withstand the Russian air defense systems.

    So Kaliningrad is near, let them check it once. And ours will practice.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. aleks neym_2
      aleks neym_2 24 May 2021 07: 37
      +9
      Oh, how disgusting this "fashion" woman is! Everyone buys, but we don't? So let them waste their money: Kaliningrad will remain more or less sensible less - this is not the Caucasus, you will break your teeth ...
      1. Mitroha
        Mitroha 24 May 2021 08: 16
        +26
        But what is it that is not a condom, so he is going to fight with Russia negative
    3. Snail N9
      Snail N9 24 May 2021 07: 40
      -20%
      I don’t understand what the problem is. Didn't the Bayraktars destroy Armenian equipment in Karabakh, which is also used by the Russian army? Bayraktar is a weapon that should be used in combination with other means, according to certain tactics. The Azerbaijanis unmanned An-2 opened the air defense of the Armenians, and with a demonstrative offensive, lured the fire weapons and armored vehicles of the Armenians to the firing positions, where all this became victims of the Bayraktar and Israeli "suicide" drones. If the Russian army uses its equipment in the same way as the Armenians, then the Bayraktars will operate quite successfully on it. In addition, the Poles may well develop tactics for the use of Bayraktar, taking into account the capabilities of NATO, especially since Turkey is a NATO member and is obliged to integrate its systems into the interfaces standard for NATO. The essence of the objections of the Poles, in general, boils down to the fact that the purchase of Bayraktars simply closes the road for their industry, which is quite capable of creating such drones. They lament that they need the UAV industry, not the immediate savings.
      1. Volodin
        Volodin 24 May 2021 07: 44
        +37
        Quote: Snail N9
        I don’t understand what the problem is. Didn't the Bayraktars destroy Armenian equipment in Karabakh, which is also used by the Russian army?

        There are no problems at all. Except for one: the use of Bayraktar from Poland using Russian technology in the Russian Federation does not guarantee the continued existence of Poland itself ...
        1. Peak
          Peak 24 May 2021 08: 15
          +7
          There are also some "sane" experts out there in the West, but they are definitely an endangered species ...
          1. gurzuf
            gurzuf 24 May 2021 20: 40
            +3
            Why? After their resignation, they have a period of honest speaking.
        2. Hagen
          Hagen 24 May 2021 13: 01
          -4
          Quote: Volodin
          the use of Bayraktar from Poland using Russian technology in the Russian Federation does not guarantee the further existence of Poland itself ...

          I do not think that the Poles are all so stupid that they hope to use Bayraktar as a strike UAV against the RF Armed Forces. They don't need it today. But the reconnaissance of the border zone will be quite accessible. The horizon from 8000 meters is almost 300 km. The Kaliningrad region can be viewed at full depth. For this, most likely, these devices are taken. Well, the fact that they spend their money on someone else's industry, it is unlikely that they, within the framework of NATO, will face such a need for import substitution as we do. On the other hand, it is possible to purchase several samples for copying / creating an analogue in your production, as the Chinese do. Without much research. As an option...
          1. venik
            venik 24 May 2021 20: 32
            +3
            Quote: Hagen
            But the reconnaissance of the border zone will be quite accessible. The horizon from 8000 meters is almost 300 km. The Kaliningrad region can be viewed at full depth.

            ========
            And you good Thought they wrote WHAT ??? This OLS "Bayraktar" can view the terrain for 300 km ??? belay fool
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 20: 45
              -2
              Quote: venik
              Is it "Bayraktar" OLS that can view the terrain for 300 km?

              AESA / SAR radar can be installed instead of or together with OLS.

              https://baykardefence.com/uav-15.html
              https://www.meteksan.com/en/products/radar-systems/milsar-uav-sar-gmti-radar
              1. venik
                venik 25 May 2021 07: 29
                +3
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                AESA / SAR radar can be installed instead of or together with OLS.

                =======
                And what is the detection range of this AESA / SAR radar, for example, a "car-type" target, can you tell me? lol
                In-in: there is only a 100 strong engine (only 75 kW!) And what radar power can be "powered" from it?
                Especially amused: "together with OLS "... lol There, from a payload of 150 kg - 55 kg - there is this very OLS!
                1. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 25 May 2021 07: 46
                  -1
                  Quote: venik
                  for example goals "like a car", can you tell me?

                  Several tens of kilometers, there are fundamental limitations of the technology
                  Quote: venik
                  What radar power can be "powered" from it?

                  Up to 1 kW somewhere
                  Quote: venik
                  together with OLS

                  What is the problem? The radar weighs a couple of tens of kg. The payload margin is more than sufficient.

                  For the sake of understanding, the development of the 00s, now the technology has advanced much further.
                  radiocom-review.blogspot.com/2012/10/iai-sargmti-elm-2054.html
                  TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF THE ELM-2054 ON-BOARD RADAR

                  ■ Observation range: more than 10 kilometers, depending on the mode.

                  ■ Observation of all objects along the lane of the aircraft with a collection speed of up to 360 km² / h.

                  ■ Sector of scanning for detection and identification of ground moving targets: selectable up to full 360º.

                  ■ Stable observation area for detection and identification of ground moving targets: up to 25 km².

                  ■ Interface: Ethernet or serial RS-422.

                  ■ Weight: typical 12 kg.

                  ■ Power consumption: 250 W at DC voltage
                  28 V.

                  P.S. Found a radar station at the Outpost / Searcher II, but this is already a 90s development. radiocom-review.blogspot.com/2012/10/iai-elm-2055.html
                  1. venik
                    venik 25 May 2021 09: 06
                    +1
                    Let's dot the i's!
                    How did it start?
                    From the fact that a member of the forum under the nickname "Hagen" said without any hesitation that from a height of 8 km, "Bayraktar" TV2 could "view the entire Kaliningrad region." I answered him that this is complete nonsense, and in the best case - he can view a narrow strip (10-15 km) along the border (more OLS does not allow).
                    You noted that an airborne radar can be installed. To which he replied that powerful The radar station cannot be "trapped" there (a weak engine and, accordingly, a small payload does not allow). Those. "Bayraktar" TV2 for exploration to a depth of 150-200 km (distance from the Polish border to the northern part of the Kaliningrad region) - NOT SUITABLE! (This requires a heavy-class UAV).
                    What's wrong with that?
                    1. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 25 May 2021 09: 40
                      0
                      Quote: venik
                      "Bayraktar" TV2 for reconnaissance to a depth of 150-200 km (distance from the Polish border to the northern part of the Kaliningrad region) - NOT SUITABLE! (This requires a heavy-class UAV).
                      What's wrong with that?

                      Much is wrong with both.
                      The width of the Kaliningrad region is 90 ~ 100 km, respectively, you need to "view" the depth of 40-50 km

                      OLS Bayraktar distinguishes targets at a distance of more than 20 km
                      Theoretically, direct radio visibility from an altitude of 6 km ~ 300 km, but yes to the full range of the radar will not give the proper resolution. My evaluative opinion on the sea MRK will be found at a distance of 100-150 km, on land a tank or Iskander at a distance of 40-50 km. They have specific signatures. With cars it is more difficult and pointless.
                      In addition, there are electronic warfare systems (RER), they can already work to the full depth.
                      In general, nothing good, but nothing catastrophic. An extra headache for the air defense and electronic warfare forces. Bayraktar is a good car, but not a prodigy.
            2. Hagen
              Hagen 24 May 2021 20: 48
              -1
              Quote: venik
              This OLS "Bayraktar" can view the terrain for 300 km ???

              What is now on the serial copy may not. But what prevents the Poles from hanging / installing something from the Germans or Franks purchased in NATO instead of a shock load? Or do you think that they are as stupid as ... well, let's not offend anyone ...? And judging by the size of the enclave, they don't even need to look at 300 km. Bayraktar can be acquired simply as a platform, hasn't it occurred to you? I don’t think we should underestimate the Poles. Only the gifted can think that the Poles will buy a toy today, and tomorrow they will go with it to break through the Russian air defense ... fool
              1. venik
                venik 24 May 2021 21: 56
                -2
                Quote: Hagen
                But what prevents the Poles from hanging / installing something from the Germans or Franks purchased in NATO instead of a shock load? Or do you think that they are as stupid as ... well, let's not offend anyone ...?

                ========
                Nothing gets in the way! But what exactly ("the Franks invented by the Germans") can be squeezed onto the Bayraktar? Especially when you consider that his engine has a power of as much as 100 hp, STO, and not a THOUSAND, Karl! (i.e. approx 75 Aut) !!! AND ALL payload chok - is 150 kg, of which 55 kg is the existing OLS?
                AND WHAT will you stick on it? Radar? The Turks did just that ..... Just modestly, they do not indicate the target detection range (say, "like a car") .... And they are doing the right thing! Painfully modest data will be obtained!
                ---------
                Quote: Hagen
                Bayraktar can be acquired simply as a platform, hasn't it occurred to you?

                =========
                It came! But unlike ... "some" .... - it immediately occurred to me to think: "and WHAT can be installed on this" platform "? request
                PS As a "strategic" scout (for a survey of the territory) - "Bayraktar" - does not fit (from the word AT ALL!). Its task is to fly and look for targets within a radius of 5-10 km.
                1. Hagen
                  Hagen 25 May 2021 07: 53
                  +1
                  Quote: venik
                  And rightly so! Painfully modest data will be obtained!

                  From what the Turks do themselves and install on TV2, surveillance on the video channel is declared to be 27-30 km. Even simple border control at this depth, compared to the use of manned vehicles, provides significant savings. In our area, oil workers have transferred control of the pipe from the Mi-2 / Mi-8 to three-ruble drones and are happy to save money to the point of madness ... I mean that in peacetime, without real shooting, there will be a very tangible benefit from the UAV of this class ... In a combat situation, they are quite vulnerable. In any case, with those air defense weapons that we use. Moreover, I did not see the opinion of the Polish Ministry of Defense on how they really want to use the acquisition somewhere. Everything that is written here is sheer speculation and pointless reasoning. You can refute, try ...
                  1. venik
                    venik 25 May 2021 09: 32
                    0
                    Quote: Hagen
                    From what the Turks do themselves and install on TV2, surveillance on the video channel is declared to be 27-30 km.

                    =======
                    The key word is "declared"! In real life, EVERYWHERE, what we have, what they have - the "real" differs from the "declared" and very significantly (which is understandable).
                    Secondly - 27 - 30 km is WHAT? At this distance can distinguish: a person, a car, a launcher or a house ??
                    ----------
                    Quote: Hagen
                    Even simple control borders to such a depth, compared to using manned vehicles, it provides serious savings.

                    =======
                    And who can argue that ?? This is exactly what "Bayraktar" TV2 is for border control! And without any "innovations", but as it is!
                    Just WHAT did it start with? You wrote:
                    Quote: Hagen
                    The horizon from 8000 meters is almost 300 km. The Kaliningrad region can be viewed at full depth.

                    So? So! I objected to you that this is nonsense! "Bayraktar" TV2 is not able to view the territory, not only 300 km, but even 160-180 km (the distance from the Polish border to the northern northern districts of the Kaliningrad region). He simply WON'T PUSH such equipment. This requires UAVs heavy class: "Global Hawk", "Reaper", "Altius" or "Sirius". These ones - yes: they can "look into any gap" for tens, or even a couple of hundred kilometers!
                    Quote: Hagen
                    Moreover, I did not see the opinion of the Polish Ministry of Defense on how they really want to use the acquisition somewhere. Everything that is written here is sheer speculation and pointless reasoning.

                    =======
                    And that's exactly the way it is! They do not seem to have much idea of ​​HOW they are going to use it ("Bayraktar" TV2)! Most likely exactly the way it was used in Karabakh ...
                    1. Hagen
                      Hagen 25 May 2021 10: 44
                      0
                      Quote: venik
                      Just WHAT did it start with? You wrote:
                      Quote: Hagen
                      The horizon from 8000 meters is almost 300 km.

                      Yes, that's how it started. And I continue with the fact that every day brings new advances in electronics. And what will happen tomorrow, at what distance it will be possible to look from a 100-kg box, I think, not you and I will not give a definite answer. By the way, we also started in this class of devices with Israeli samples. By the way, I don't like Poles as a political nation. But to represent them as debilami who decided to shoot at objects of the Russian Federation with UAVs is to be like them. Do you want to catch me for the "tongue" in numbers? Stupid. I just showed how small the KO is and how difficult it is to observe it from an altitude of 8000 meters. And with the serial Bayraktar or with Akinchi, there is no fundamental difference. But you didn’t bring anything on TV2 serial equipment either ...
                      1. venik
                        venik 25 May 2021 12: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Hagen
                        And what will happen tomorrow, at what distance it will be possible to look from a 100-kg box, I think, not you and I will not give a definite answer.

                        =======
                        Do not think of it as overconfidence, but still more than a quarter of a century of work in research institutes (with semiconductor technology and materials science) give some opportunity, at least "through the crack" to look ahead ...
                        The fact is that there are laws of physics .... and against them - "you can't argue"! Microelectronics - stepped immeasurably ... But with optics ... It's more difficult here ...
                        And in general: science develops in leaps and bounds.
                        Microelectronics stepped forward and this process will last another decade ... But with optics - it's worse! Here you need to go to another level! And he has not yet been traced! Personal opinion: the future belongs to "quantonics" (let's call it that). And in this regard, something is already being done! It seems like we have already created a prototype of a "quantum radar" ....
                        -----------------------------------------
                        Well, now let's get back to "our rams":
                        Quote: Hagen
                        By the way, we also started in this class of devices with Israeli samples.

                        ========
                        Yes it is! And now - the second Army in the world, in terms of the number of UAVs in service ... About quality - that's another thing. But here, too, there is something to brag about!
                        ----------
                        Quote: Hagen
                        By the way, I don't like Poles as a political nation. But to represent them as debilami who decided to shoot at objects of the Russian Federation with UAVs is to be like them.

                        =========
                        And in vain you think so! These - CAN! (Why - this is already in a "personal"!)
                        ---------
                        Quote: Hagen
                        Do you want to catch me for the "tongue" in numbers? Stupid. I just showed how small the KO is and how difficult it is to observe it from an altitude of 8000 meters. And from the serial Bayraktar or from Akinchi, there is no fundamental difference.

                        =======
                        The difference is that the Poles did not buy "Bayraktar Akıncı", but "Bayraktar" TV2 !!!
                        Why? Yes, the logic is simple: instead of "pulling up" and investing in DEVELOPMENT (and middle-class reconnaissance UAVs are now creating countries like Tunisia !!! ( belay ) ...
                        Why? Yes, simply because you do not need to "bother"!
                        Do you think "psheki" are not able to rivet a glider for a UAV? Are able! They have some kind of aviation industry! So there are engineers! And access to all "Western" technologies - too!
                        And you think, WHY after that they did not create their OWN UAV? It's easier to BUY (for American "handouts") ...
                        And after all this, you will claim that they are ready to fool themselves ... Mr. Pardon! ... "causal place" by re-equipment of "Bayraktar" ??? belay It’s easier for them to buy an Israeli Searcher-II than to “bother” like that!
                      2. Hagen
                        Hagen 25 May 2021 13: 25
                        0
                        Quote: venik
                        And in vain you think so! These - CAN!

                        Their decisiveness seems to me to be doubtful. To fight, this is not breach in the European Parliament. Although, of course, it is difficult to guarantee something in this world today. However, the likelihood is minimal.
                        Quote: venik
                        Do you think "psheki" are not capable of riveting a glider for a UAV?

                        They have a company in this area, they have their own UAVs, only in a lighter class. As an assumption of the reason for the purchase, I already said, take on trial and copy something similar. Nobody voiced the true reasons for the purchase. After all, we also do not always say why we buy from the West what we ourselves produce. Only one idiot with the Il-112 / An-140 is worth something. There are so many possible reasons that can be mixed up that you get tired of listing the versions. In any case, I think the use of these devices in combat conditions with air defense of our level is a disastrous and not promising business. But replacing a manned helicopter / aircraft for monitoring territories or borders is very profitable (at the cost of an hour of operation). But this is my assumption, although it has not been refuted in detail by anyone.
                      3. venik
                        venik 25 May 2021 14: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Hagen
                        But replacing a manned helicopter / plane for monitoring territories or borders is very profitable (at the cost of an hour of operation). But this is my assumption, although it has not been refuted in detail by anyone.

                        ========
                        good drinks But something simpler, cheaper and easier would do for border monitoring! (Our "Eagles" have been monitoring the border there for a long time). And besides, for these purposes, it would be possible to purchase the Israeli "Searcher-II". There is an open architecture of the onboard processor and the ability to install a light AFAR (with a synthesized aperture ", and the parameters are very close to Bayraktar, despite the fact that the price is not very different! (Is it just AFAR - a little expensive ...). buy "Bayraktar", so that, as our professor used to say on "theoretical physics": "by not very complicated, but very cumbersome transformations"turn" Bayraktar "TB2 into the same" Searcher-II "...... Well, agree: NONSENS !!! request hi
                    2. Hagen
                      Hagen 26 May 2021 07: 53
                      0
                      Quote: venik
                      These - CAN! (Why - this is already in a "personal"!)

                      It would be very interesting to know the reasons for your assessment of your Polish abilities.
    4. older
      older 27 May 2021 15: 46
      0
      Not tired of "everybody in the dust ???"
  2. syndicalist
    syndicalist 24 May 2021 08: 17
    -10%
    Quote: Snail N9
    the purchase of Bayraktarov simply closes the road to its industry, which is quite capable of creating such drones.

    So.
    Despite the impressive successes in the fight against Russian weapons in Karabakh, bayraktars are, in fact, semi-handicrafts that do not meet modern realities. If you can't buy really modern drones from the United States, China or Israel, then you really need to try to make them yourself.
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 24 May 2021 08: 37
      +5
      Quote: syndicalist
      If you can't buy really modern drones from the United States, China or Israel, then you really need to try to make them yourself.

      The Polish Ministry of Defense does not want to spend funds on R&D.
      Maybe he wants, but where to get them ??? Poland is taken off the allowance. Gas democracy has not happened, there is no money. Everything!
  3. yehat2
    yehat2 24 May 2021 08: 18
    +9
    Quote: Snail N9
    then the Bayraktars will be quite successful in acting on it

    the air defense system is not only ground complexes with outdated electronics.
    it is enough to put a radar of the S-400 level and establish a watch of a pair of aircraft at the front-line airfield, equal to F-16
    and the whole section of the front will become just a grave for the bayraktars.
    Bayraktars are primarily a means of destroying weakly armed, backward, poorly trained armies. Of course, they are dangerous, but their effectiveness will drop significantly against normally trained infantry.
    You probably saw the war footage in NK - the complete absence of camouflage from the air and often camouflage in general, crowded people and equipment, etc. For such purposes, not only bayraktars, but also mobile self-propelled guns with a reconnaissance drone can be very painful to work out.
    An example from ww2 - specially flew over the positions of the troops to check the camouflage.
    And the last thing. Drone speed. Bayraktar takes a position for several hours.
    This is an important point.
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 24 May 2021 08: 40
      +9
      Quote: yehat2
      Drone speed. Bayraktar takes a position for several hours.
      This is an important point.

      That's for sure. During this time, the Iskander flies to the control center several times. In short, one of the children of the Polish rulers wanted "a model of an airplane almost like a real one" wassat
  4. yehat2
    yehat2 24 May 2021 08: 23
    +3
    Quote: Snail N9
    which is quite capable of creating such drones.

    The Turks came up with only software and a number of simple solutions for bayraktars.
    almost all parts are imported. Imported and equipment for homing ammunition.
    The most important and expensive element is the optical observation system, also imported.
    I think, if the Poles want to seriously, then in 2-3 years they will make their analogue from French, Chinese and Israeli elements.
  5. Piramidon
    Piramidon 24 May 2021 08: 52
    +4
    Quote: Snail N9
    If the Russian army uses its equipment in the same way as the Armenians

    Dreaming.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. orionvitt
    orionvitt 24 May 2021 15: 49
    +2
    Quote: Snail N9
    I don’t understand what the problem is

    The problem is in the level of technical equipment of the enemy. fool Bayraktars in relation to the air defense of Russia are like a mouse against a cat.
  8. Artem76
    Artem76 24 May 2021 16: 21
    +4
    Have you heard the expression - "equipment in the hands of a savage - a piece of scrap metal"? The Papuans can also be given the F-35, only as he uses it. So there is no need to cast a shadow over the fence and compare the organizational measures of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and Armenia. Our troops are better prepared and better equipped.
  9. Barberry25
    Barberry25 24 May 2021 18: 35
    +4
    laughing the problem is that our army WILL NOT behave like the Armenians, because the counter-tactics have already been worked out and our air defense units are actively studying and testing it in exercises ... And most importantly, the Armenians lost, because they played from defense, betting on the exhaustion of the enemy without active offensive actions ... which cost them the victory
  10. Alexander Seklitsky
    Alexander Seklitsky 24 May 2021 18: 45
    +5
    Quote: Snail N9
    Didn't the Bayraktars destroy Armenian equipment in Karabakh?

    What do you think that the combat potential of the RF Armed Forces is comparable to Karabakh? Let's start with the fact that in Kaliningrad the airspace is scanned up and down and a fake flying at the speed of a corn-grower simply has no chance of remaining unnoticed. Further ... if there are attacks, then there will be a war. And it will not be the same as in Karabakh. he will not sit and wait for blows from the Poles. Reconnaissance will also be conducted against them, strikes into the depths of the territory will be carried out. The accumulations of troops and equipment will be destroyed, air defense will be suppressed. Command centers will also be calculated and covered with fire.
  11. gurzuf
    gurzuf 24 May 2021 20: 39
    0
    But I believe Putin about the teeth of those who wish to bite us ... even with a Turkish product.
  • kochegar62
    kochegar62 24 May 2021 09: 21
    +9
    This is HSP (Poland's cunning plan). Its essence is 1. to ensure UAV superiority over Ukraine in the upcoming battle for Lvov 2. Yes, and Lithuania is nearby, they can also squeeze out something "primordially Polish". Ukraine's air defense is perhaps stronger than the Karabakh defense, but, most likely, will be quite tough for the Polish Air Force (of course, taking into account the future purchases of the F-35 and Bayraktar). laughing laughing
    1. boris-1230
      boris-1230 24 May 2021 20: 41
      +1
      Fu-35s will not be able to steer even when taxiing without the permission of the master, and the master will not give permission so that his prestige does not accidentally fall. This is how everything is tied up ...
  • RealPilot
    RealPilot 24 May 2021 18: 48
    +2
    Sometimes the purchase of weapons is a veiled payment for other agreements.
    Who knows, maybe there are some unpublished projects between Poland and Turkey? Hand washes hand ...
    This can be especially indicated by the fact that there are no even conversations and plans on this topic. Met, and suddenly bought.

    The exchange of intelligence, including on the south of Russia, for example, or the issue of filtering and preventing the exodus of refugees to Europe, cooperation within NATO and adjusting the military budget to meet the 2% standard. The Ukrainian question, where both countries interact in their own interests.
    Problem solving, lobbying, intelligence ...

    There you can find a lot of interests that require implementation and payment, but in principle they are not carried out through the "cash desk"!
  • rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 24 May 2021 07: 32
    +8
    if Bayraktar TB2 were acquired as a means of destroying Russian equipment, then it is unclear how they will withstand Russian air defense systems.
    The question is interesting and does not contradict logic. Therefore, we can agree with the subsequent conclusion of the expert
    conclusions about the need to purchase were made for the reason that now it is fashionable
    1. Peak
      Peak 24 May 2021 08: 19
      +3
      Quote: rotmistr60
      conclusions about the need to purchase were made for the reason that now it is fashionable

  • Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 24 May 2021 07: 34
    +5
    I don’t remember the video with the destruction of the shell in Karabakh. The old wasps were there.
    In general, this bayraktar is not so cheap. $ 70 million per set. And the sets need at least a dozen so that they play some role.
    1. Rasul Aliyev
      Rasul Aliyev 24 May 2021 07: 43
      0
      There is video evidence of the destruction of the anti-aircraft missile system wasp, carapace, s300, the weapons of war are only incomprehensibly destroyed by the bayraktar or by the ammunition of which Azerbaijan has a lot of kamikaze
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 24 May 2021 08: 25
        +3
        So. Firstly, 300 well, certainly not sharpened by a UAV. Has the shell been destroyed? Already one?))) Many drones? ))) What a horror ... how many of this Cardboard was shot down there in Syria, don't you remind me?)
        1. Rasul Aliyev
          Rasul Aliyev 24 May 2021 08: 42
          -10%
          The destruction of 4 shells can be found on YouTube, but I did not find evidence of the destruction of the UAV
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 24 May 2021 08: 50
            +6
            So you look)))) maybe, for example, state specialists will find estimates)))




            Oh)
            1. Rasul Aliyev
              Rasul Aliyev 24 May 2021 08: 59
              -11%
              I mean, there is no evidence, there is no video that they were knocked out of the air defense system.
              1. carstorm 11
                carstorm 11 24 May 2021 09: 00
                +9
                Well, from slingshots, it means) experts, operators squeak and say their shells were shot down, but you can't be convinced))) I never thought why the Turks abruptly stopped striking the CAA so often? The US ones write that they were shot down for 40 pieces), of course, everyone's business, but I don't see any other reason)
          2. Mikhail Tynda
            Mikhail Tynda 24 May 2021 17: 37
            -2
            Throw off the links. Before you go to the market to open a shop
      2. Herman 4223
        Herman 4223 24 May 2021 09: 10
        +5
        An element of the s-300 complex was destroyed. This element has remained there since Soviet times. The complex itself was not there.
        https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5daad4a0c7e50c00b1294ff0/pvo-v-karabahskoi-voine-2020-byla-ili-ne-byla-chast-2-5fc1823ab545e6348872cde2
    2. KCA
      KCA 24 May 2021 08: 03
      -5
      There are 9 UAVs in the kit, a dozen should this mean 900pcs?
      1. Mitroha
        Mitroha 24 May 2021 08: 19
        +5
        Quote: KCA
        There are 9 UAVs in the kit, a dozen should this mean 900pcs?

        90 actually
      2. yehat2
        yehat2 24 May 2021 08: 24
        +4
        Quote: KCA
        There are 9 UAVs in the kit, a dozen should this mean 900pcs?

        9x10 = 90, not 900 laughing
        1. Peak
          Peak 24 May 2021 08: 29
          +6
          Quote: yehat2
          9x10 = 90, not 900

          What the Unified State Exam does to people recourse crying ...

          A math lesson at a Georgian school.

          Teacher:
          - Who knows how long it will be twice? Avtandil!
          - Spot!
          - Sit down, two! Vakhtang!

          - Ten ...
          - Sit down, two! Anzor!
          - Devyat ...
          - Sit down, two! Gogi!
          - Sam, teacher!
          - Yes, somewhere like that - sam-vosem ... But, do not spot !!!

          Sam-vosam ... But, do not sabotage !!!
          1. Mikhail Tynda
            Mikhail Tynda 24 May 2021 17: 39
            +2
            Something like this? Like a pier and beans?
      3. Hog
        Hog 24 May 2021 08: 25
        +1
        Quote: KCA
        There are 9 UAVs in the kit, a dozen should this mean 900pcs?

        Math is from God)))
        9x10 = 90, and you bam and immediately 900)
      4. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 24 May 2021 08: 51
        +1
        9 by 10 is 90))))
      5. Herman 4223
        Herman 4223 24 May 2021 09: 12
        +1
        Like six.
        "$ 70 million for the minimum standard delivery, consisting of 6 drones, 3 control stations and ancillary equipment."
        And ten is sixty.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • 416D
    416D 24 May 2021 07: 37
    +6
    [quote = Oleg Chertkov] So Kaliningrad is near, let them check it once. And ours will practice

    Maybe not? A thin world is better than a good war
  • Alexander 3
    Alexander 3 24 May 2021 07: 52
    +4
    Let’s not tell potential opponents what they can and don’t get involved with. Let them buy whatever they want, even balloons.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 24 May 2021 07: 55
    -9
    For air defense systems, Poland has an F-16 and will have an F-35 with an arsenal of missiles. UAV is an auxiliary reconnaissance tool for MLRS, OTRK and artillery ... and drive partisans in Ukraine and Belarus
    1. Mitroha
      Mitroha 24 May 2021 08: 22
      +4
      Quote: Zaurbek
      For air defense systems, Poland has an F-16 and will have an F-35 with an arsenal of missiles. UAV is an auxiliary reconnaissance tool for MLRS, OTRK and artillery ... and drive partisans in Ukraine and Belarus

      The race car hasn't grown yet. And if you start to grow up, then we will rip it out on
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 24 May 2021 08: 27
      +2
      16 is one of the components. Without a bundle with ground air defense, it's just an airplane) to drive partisans?))) The navel will not be untied?)))
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 24 May 2021 08: 55
        0
        They will not be left without help. There is a whole fleet of AWACS and tankers.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 24 May 2021 08: 56
          +1
          Well, at least some kind of joy))) although the air defense complexes of the Republic of Belarus control them, but these are trifles))))
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 24 May 2021 09: 14
            -3
            The air defense of Belarus is nothing without the Aerospace Forces of the Russian Federation ... like the Polish Air Force is nothing without NATO ... another thing is that Poland can take part in the partition of Ukraine and the Bayraktors are just right there, and the F35 and F16 can restrain the Russian Federation ... and they will be assisted by NATO scouts and AWACS along the borders of the Russian Federation and Belarus and will supply the CD and PRR and refuel.
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 24 May 2021 09: 26
              +2
              What do you mean?))) But only they can increase?) We do not know how to transfer air defense. VKS generally stuck) there are no airfields nearby at all. The regiment will fly over to Baranovichi alone and all this bravado is zero without a wand) if you still forget how many forces and means will sharply target the Polish Wishlist))) believe me, heroism in this case disappears very quickly.
              1. Zaurbek
                Zaurbek 24 May 2021 09: 50
                -3
                Well, it’s not so simple .... the territory of Ukraine cannot be easily blocked.
                1. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 24 May 2021 10: 13
                  0
                  Already blocked. They are still afraid to fly. For all that they were serious, they were not closed. And they didn't really have a nightmare
                  1. Zaurbek
                    Zaurbek 24 May 2021 10: 15
                    -3
                    South blocked .... and the border with Poland, how can you dig? And to jam us, no one jammed ...
                    1. carstorm 11
                      carstorm 11 24 May 2021 10: 17
                      -1
                      Who are you?))) Will you find the losses of Ukrainian aviation?))) The border is just an ordinary space. Like any other space, it is closed. Layered air defense.
                      1. Zaurbek
                        Zaurbek 24 May 2021 10: 19
                        -2
                        where were they? In Donbas? Take the opposite point of Ukraine ... The Turks also shot down our Su24 from their territory
                      2. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 24 May 2021 10: 24
                        +4
                        I know ... How many Air Force 404s have lost? 11 aircraft of various modifications. 7 helicopters. Despite the fact that there was no serious air defense there. I'm not going to take some opposite point. I am more in fact. If desired and possible, serious PVO in cooperation with the Aerospace Forces will be closed by literally everyone. And I'm just talking about the object. Air defense troops will also receive a bonus.
                      3. Zaurbek
                        Zaurbek 24 May 2021 10: 27
                        0
                        With non-resistance, they will close everything, with limited they will not close a part, with a strong one, they will close some part. So to speak.
                      4. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 24 May 2021 10: 33
                        -2
                        Here you have to start from the beginning. You said that the guerrillas will be chasing the RB. I'm trying to convince you that this is impossible. Well, if only to start a big war, of course. Then the scripts will change. And now they will simply be kicked out of there and can do nothing. Do not overestimate them too much. In a permanent which now they cannot even control Kaliningrad alone)
                      5. Zaurbek
                        Zaurbek 24 May 2021 11: 17
                        0
                        As long as the Russian Federation is an ally, no one will drive anyone ... and if not, NK and Armenia are an example. RB won't last much longer. In the EU, weapons are larger and more modern than those of the five Turkey and Azerbaijan
                      6. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 24 May 2021 11: 22
                        +2
                        But who can argue) but I repeat, let's rely on facts. And in a military sense, we are not just allies. We even have a united command. As for Karabakh, it has already been said hundreds of times - we did not intend to defend it. Yes, and Azerbajan would not have flooded there if it had been different.
  • Pensive Lawyer
    Pensive Lawyer 24 May 2021 17: 10
    0
    Now I would like to discuss a hypothetical war with the Russian Federation. The owner of one of the three strongest armies in the world and a huge mobilization resource.
    The Polish army is, of course, strong. I don’t think I’m lying if I say that, perhaps, the strongest in Europe at the moment. But Poland alone will not last a month against the Russian Federation.
    The air defense of the Russian Federation just against the F-16 and F-35 was created and is being modernized. Cut down export options are not an indicator here. Yes, and there has not yet been the use of these aircraft against an echeloned air defense system, even remotely similar to ours.
    In general, all these conversations are meaningless - the Russian Federation is not interested in the territory of Poland. Poland, too, as far as I know, is not eager to attack the Russian Federation. Why should we fight? Why does Poland, when purchasing weapons, evaluate them precisely from the point of view of their use against the Russian Federation? We don't "try on" our weapons to the Polish Armed Forces.
  • tech3030
    tech3030 24 May 2021 08: 03
    +2
    "He notes that with the help of these attack drones, it was possible to destroy the Pantsir air defense missile system of the Armenian forces in Karabakh only because these complexes were used individually, and not in a single air defense system." - And where was that?
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 24 May 2021 08: 20
      -2
      I did not understand, but how is the shell able to defend itself against freely falling bombs?
      the altitude of his old missiles was not enough to fight back. The radar also did not catch the target.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 24 May 2021 10: 29
        0
        Single Carapaces, which were destroyed in the battle, fired at the ammunition. And it is not known how many UAVs and drones attacked them. And in order to drop a cast-iron bomb - its carrier will not reach the Shell. And he knocks down the bombs.
        1. yehat2
          yehat2 24 May 2021 11: 24
          -1
          Quote: Zaurbek
          And in order to drop a cast-iron bomb - its carrier will not reach the Shell. And he knocks down the bombs.

          Well, how can it not reach, when it does, I already wrote that the old rockets did not have enough altitude.
          And not every car is equipped with new missiles, which the bayraktars reach at high altitudes, and the radar detects such a target badly.
          As for shooting down planning bombs - well, yes, it can, but with what ammunition consumption, under what conditions and with what probability?
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 24 May 2021 12: 06
            +1
            Bayraktar and his ilk fly at 5-6 t.km. for MANPADS it is far ... for Shell just right. Cast iron not corr bomb from higher heights only to drop into the "milk". With small goals, but there were difficulties ....... and you take a separate Carapace ..... and the battery should have an overview locator .... or all the Carapaces must survey and exchange data. And that's another story
            1. yehat2
              yehat2 24 May 2021 12: 49
              -3
              Quote: Zaurbek
              Bayraktar and his ilk fly at 5-6 t.km. for MANPADS it is far ... for Shell just right.

              in NK bayraktars worked from heights of about 10 km
  • Fungus
    Fungus 24 May 2021 08: 14
    0
    Bayraktars are an easy target for Russian air defense and electronic warfare. So the Poles bought them in vain.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 24 May 2021 08: 19
      +2
      Quote: Fungus
      Bayraktars are an easy target for Russian air defense and electronic warfare. So the Poles bought them in vain.

      And why don't I feel sorry for them?
      1. Rasul Aliyev
        Rasul Aliyev 24 May 2021 08: 42
        -2
        UAV is just a difficult target
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 24 May 2021 11: 27
          +2
          What's difficult about it?) Low-speed target) Well, these machines have not fought with sensible air defense. I repeat, and this is not my words, in Syria and Libya they were shot down by 47 pieces according to the estimates of the state experts. There is certainly no reason to praise us. In Idlib, remember what happened? Where have all the vaunted attacks of the Turks gone? Well, the truth is, our guys gouged a couple of times there with their instructors, but what about all the UAVs? Where did you fall so abruptly?)
      2. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 24 May 2021 10: 20
        +1
        Because otherwise they will kill the one who did not shoot them down.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • svoit
    svoit 24 May 2021 08: 40
    +2
    Quote: KCA
    ten does it mean 900pcs?

    according to the rules of mathematics, it turns out closer to 90 pieces
    In addition, nothing prevents us from purchasing 10 sets, and producing another 10-20 under license, possibly modified ...
  • cniza
    cniza 24 May 2021 09: 30
    +1
    The expert notes that if Bayraktar TB2 were acquired as a means of destroying Russian equipment, then it is unclear how they will withstand Russian air defense systems.


    A good and correct question, they were promoted against the background of the war in Karabakh, but they forgot to turn on their head ...
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 24 May 2021 10: 26
      +2
      They (Turks and Azerbaijanis) turned their heads on ... Bayraktars did not shoot by themselves. A Turkish AWACS flew along the border continuously reconnoitring, taking direction finding ... Turkish intelligence was working, An-2 was fired at them by air defense bullets. She did not change the place, UAVs flew in and shot them safely for themselves. There was a set of measures .... And advertising is the engine of trade. The Turks have received a successful product and are moving it, crossing the road, first of all, to the Jews and Americans and, secondly, to the Chinese ... and, thirdly, to us.
      Turkey is a player in the world UAV market and this must be understood and accepted.
      1. Konstantin Sokov
        Konstantin Sokov 24 May 2021 11: 45
        0
        And if AWACS are opposed by means of electronic warfare?
        Turkey is a player in the UAV only until the market for components is blocked for them.
        Well, and don't forget about the lira rate ...
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 24 May 2021 12: 01
          0
          The plane flies along the border ...... EW will go for it? AWACS with Afar both in active and passive mode work ... and not with Afar ... working radars detect
        2. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 24 May 2021 12: 02
          0
          China will sell them too ..... they will do something themselves. They have their own weapons for the UAV
  • isv000
    isv000 24 May 2021 11: 30
    +1
    We will plant your UAVs in Smolensk, the port is already familiar to you ... hi
  • Whisper
    Whisper 25 May 2021 01: 14
    0
    How are they going to recover after destruction? Better to think about it first.
  • shinobi
    shinobi 25 May 2021 02: 09
    0
    Drones are good where there are no layered air defense and against insurgents. The main function is reconnaissance. The value of drones is greatly exaggerated. In full-scale conflicts of equal rivals, they have a very narrow niche for use.
    1. Vadim F
      Vadim F 29 May 2021 12: 09
      0
      stupidity and misunderstanding is not an argument :) some sincerely do not understand the capabilities of drones, others are inspired by propaganda (so as not to fuss in advance). there is no niche in the use of drones ... they are driving other types of troops into niches (and very narrow ones). drones in their variety cover all areas of application - just make and use. no air defense is capable of protecting against drones (even if 100% reflects the first wave) ... with each drone missed, the superiority of forces goes to the attacker (moreover, like an avalanche).
      1. shinobi
        shinobi 29 May 2021 20: 04
        0
        Blessed is he who believes.
  • DED_peer_DED
    DED_peer_DED 25 May 2021 03: 49
    0
    How can bayraktar become a terrible weapon?
    Like this:
    When trying to arrive on a clear day and in bright weather.
    When we try to sit out without offending anyone.
    When trying to pshekov "just fly", no offense.
    When trying to negotiate between the parties.
    When trying to continue the "partnership".
    When trying to zhpl-zstva.
    When trying to play along with our ...........
    With the addition of all these conditions and their acting out from our side, at once.

    How else is it necessary hurt yourselfto make this "miracle" of Turkish bottling a "super-duper weapon"?
  • Gueuze Ulenspiegel
    Gueuze Ulenspiegel 26 May 2021 10: 03
    +1
    Everything is now all the khan.[/ Center]
  • Vadim F
    Vadim F 29 May 2021 12: 00
    0
    it is only clear that in Poland the experts are the same idiots as in other countries (including Russia).
    the last of the mentioned is simply handsome "He notes that with the help of these shock drones it was possible to destroy the" Pantsir "air defense missile system of the Armenian forces in Karabakh only because these complexes were used one by one, and not in a single air defense system." ... I do not know what is in there were no shells in Karabakh.