Military Review

All American shipyards Fincantieri are thrown into the construction of frigates for the US Navy

102
All American shipyards Fincantieri are thrown into the construction of frigates for the US Navy

The Italian company Fincantieri is throwing all of its three shipyards based in the United States on the construction of new FFG (X) frigates for the American fleet... To increase the capacity utilization, it is planned to hire another 600 workers.


This decision was made after the conclusion of a $ 553,9 million contract last Thursday for the construction of a second Constellation-class URO frigate for the needs of the US Navy. The deal is part of a larger agreement from 2020 with a potential value of $ 5.5 billion, according to which the Italian company pledged to deliver the first Constellation frigate in 2026 with an option for another 9 ships. By the end of 2021, it is planned to complete the detailed design of the new frigate and begin its construction.

The new ships will be based on the FREMM frigate from Fincantieri, which is already in service with the navies of France, Italy and Morocco.

Fincantieri has three shipyards in the United States in the Great Lakes region: in Marinette, Sturgeon Bay and Green Bay. In Marinette, the site is being prepared for work: the construction of the largest ship lift in the United States is already underway (earlier ships were launched here on board from the slipway) and it was decided to build a workshop for the closed construction of ships for $ 200 million.

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  1. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 22 May 2021 13: 48
    +23
    We felt a real threat from China and started ordering proven, massive frigates. Which can produce a large number of shipyards. Finally they decided to replace Hazard Perry.

    Versatile vertical launcher Mk 41 with 32 cells.
    Launcher Mk 49 with 21 anti-aircraft missiles RIM-116 RAM
    RCC 16 pieces, probably NSM
    57 mm autocannon + laser reserve 150 kW
    Various radars and means of PLO, air defense, electronic warfare.
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 22 May 2021 14: 10
      -12%
      We felt a real threat from China and started ordering proven, massive frigates.

      Not certainly in that way.
      What we consider to be the American superfleet is what the Americans themselves call the "Age of Absurd Failures," which threw the country tens of billions of dollars back and delayed the creation of the necessary systems for years. wink

      https://naukatehnika.com/fregat-klassa-constellation.html
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar 24 May 2021 08: 55
        0
        Quote: Arzt
        What we consider to be the American superfleet, the Americans themselves call the "Age of Absurd Failures", which threw the country back tens of billions of dollars and delayed the creation of the necessary systems for years.

        You should at least quote to the end. In the same place, this article further clarifies: named the events of the last twenty years... Apparently, we are talking about the old times "Zamvolta", LCS and other dubious projects. No one doubts the capabilities of the rest of the fleet (aircraft carriers, dozens of URO destroyers).
        1. Doctor
          Doctor 24 May 2021 08: 57
          +1
          You should at least quote to the end. There, in this article, it is further specified: they named the events of the last twenty years. Apparently, we are talking about the antiquity of "Zamvolta", LCS and other dubious projects. No one doubts the capabilities of the rest of the fleet (aircraft carriers, dozens of URO destroyers).

          Yes, I agree, thanks.
          It's about the coastal fleet.
    2. Ratmir_Ryazan
      Ratmir_Ryazan 22 May 2021 15: 08
      -10%
      An analogue of our software 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov".
      1. 210ox
        210ox 22 May 2021 15: 20
        +6
        By no means an analogue. Especially in terms of armament and its quantity.
      2. bayard
        bayard 22 May 2021 15: 55
        +32
        Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
        An analogue of our software 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov".

        VI is 1,5 times more, UVP for 32 CR, inclined launchers for 16 anti-ship missiles, launchers for shooting sonar buoys, 2 helicopters (instead of one with us), better seaworthiness (VI matters). This frigate is much better balanced and has a VERY good price tag.
        Even in rivalry with "Gorshkov" - the same!
        550 million dollars both stand.
        But the quality and combat capabilities of this one are much better.
        And this is a reason to think. Previously, our ships of a similar purpose and VI cost significantly (more often - multiple) less ... And now?
        Not to mention the fact that we have not learned how to build them ... in the "new Russia".
        By building such frigates at three shipyards, the United States will increase their number to five to six dozen within 10-15 years ... And we during this time? .. Would the hulls already laid down be completed.
        It's just a shame for the formerly second maritime power in the world.
        It is time to introduce the barracks mode on the Zvezda until they start assembling the gearboxes at the speed and volume NECESSARY for the Fleet and industry.
        And it is necessary to build 22350 not only at one plant. Yantar is also capable of building such ships.
        And "Zaliv" was built before 1135 Ave., there are enough slipways there. And it's time for the Far East to get involved in military shipbuilding. The Amur Plant has revived, and before that ships of a similar dimension were also built there ... but it is better to build somewhere in Primorye - in Vladivostok or on "Zvezda".
        ... But we will rather just hold another parade with "Karakurt" and corvettes ...
        With such a quality of public administration, there is no need to count on more.
        1. Ratmir_Ryazan
          Ratmir_Ryazan 22 May 2021 18: 27
          -8
          I disagree. Well, where is not an analogue? Because of PU for anti-ship missiles

          Why do we still need a separate launcher for anti-ship missiles, if we have UKSK ?!

          The extreme versions of Project 22350 will have 32 UKSK cells, if you want Caliber, you want Onyx, if you want Zircon, load it. And also a separate launcher for anti-ship missiles - this is an extra displacement, extra crew members, more voracious engines. And what will the Kh-35U with a range of 260 km give if the UKSK can be loaded with more long-range and high-speed missiles of three types? Nothing, this is ballast. If you need to attack something small, you can hit the air defense missile system with a missile.

          The air defense of our ship is more powerful, an analogue of the S-350, and they essentially have the same Stinger upgraded to a range of 10 km, our cannon is 130 mm, they have 57 mm - a fake.

          Our frigate is a station wagon fighter, and they just have a barge with a battery of anti-aircraft missiles or tactical missiles, depending on the task.

          Therefore, the price is the same.

          Project 22350 with 32 cells is quite balanced for a frigate, God willing, we will lay down this year the destroyer of Project 22350M with a large UKSK and 2 helicopters - that will be a sea beast.

          The displacement does not differ much between ours and their frigates if we consider it for seaworthiness. Our frigate under 5000 tons, quite normally, made a round-the-world trip without any problems. But a larger ship will consume more fuel. We will get the same in terms of capabilities, only more expensive. What for?

          And Russia does not need to have as many ships as the United States, we are more of a land country, we do not need to kill all the resources for the fleet, catching up with the United States. The frigates are being built and will continue to be built, the series will grow and improve, and the problems with the Star will be solved, and the factories in the Far East, in the Crimea and St. Petersburg are already overwhelmed with orders.

          In addition to the fleet, we have our own troops and air forces, which also need to be re-equipped.
          1. bayard
            bayard 22 May 2021 20: 31
            +14
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            Why do we still need a separate launcher for anti-ship missiles, if we have UKSK ?!

            For engaging less priority targets and targets at a distance of up to 260 km.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            ... If you need to attack something small, you can hit the air defense missile system with a missile.

            It is possible, but only at line-of-sight distance.
            And.
            Do you think that SAMs cost less than the X-35?
            This is not true . The "Redoubt" has missiles with AGSN, and this is VERY expensive.
            And at line-of-sight range, it's easier to hit with a cannon.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            Extreme versions of Project 22350 will have 32 UKSK cells

            And this is very good . But the same Americans still put on all their ships with a bunch of UKSK also PU for "Harpoons", and this is very rational.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            The air defense of our ship is more powerful, an analogue of the S-350, and they essentially have the same Stinger upgraded to a range of 10 km, our cannon is 130 mm, they have 57 mm - a fake.

            This is not so, their frigate's radar station is a truncated "Aegis", and the missile defense system ... SM-6, SM-2MR Blok-3C, and RAM in 21 cells does not have "Stingers" at all, but "Sidewinder" "- for the near zone.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            the gun we have is 130 mm, they have 57 mm - a fake.

            The cannon, yes, we have more, and this is better.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            Our frigate is a station wagon fighter, and they just have a barge with a battery of anti-aircraft missiles or tactical missiles, depending on the task.

            No, they have a frigate, this is primarily an escort, as well as an PLO ship. They did not have enough of them and they are now building them.
            And their speed is less than our 26 knots versus 29 for ours, but this should be enough for them to escort and search for enemy submarines. In addition, at low and economic speed, they have electric propulsion, which means low noise when searching (the gearbox does not make noise).
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            Project 22350 with 32 cells is quite balanced for a frigate

            Yes, with 32 cells it will be better, because at least 8 of them need to be allocated for PLUR, at least 16 for anti-ship missiles (Onyx or Zircon and there will be 8 more “Caliber” along the coast ”or 8 more PLUR if the task is on PLO ...
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            God willing, we will lay down this year the destroyer of project 22350M with a large UKSK and 2 helicopters - that will be a sea beast.

            In fact, no one has yet seen this project in the public domain and in the final version. Therefore, will there be 2 helicopters on it, or will they leave one until a mystery. But I would very much like exactly 2 PLO helicopters.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            The displacement does not differ much between ours and their frigates if we consider it for seaworthiness. Our frigate under 5000 tons

            The 22350 VI has a total of 5300 tons, the "Consteleishin" has 6700 tons, this is a difference of almost 30%.
            But we do not measure ourselves with instruments here. The question is not at all that our 22350 (especially version 22350.1) is also a very well-balanced ship, but that our ship is 30% lighter and has a smaller set of weapons (there are no light anti-ship missiles and launchers for shooting sonar buoys, but also long-range missiles) has the same price as its counterpart built by the United States. The fact that the United States has learned to count money and make rational decisions (it’s time for them to say thank you to Trump is his merit) is obvious. But the fact that we are already building ships for an equal price (with our salaries and the cost of living in general) looks not good at all.
            Project 22350M is expected to cost 650 million dollars. but it won't be Burke. In any case, for the air defense system. If he has 8 UKSKs for 64 CR (and that's what you can hope for looking at 22350.1) ... that will be just great. But in terms of air defense capabilities, it still will not be equal to the Burkes.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            And Russia does not need to have as many ships as the United States,

            Russia needs a Fleet capable of solving the tasks it faces. We are not in a position to compete with the United States in numbers; let China indulge in this. But we need a balanced Fleet. Not a "land power fleet". Now a huge merchant fleet of supertankers and gas carriers is being built. Heavy nuclear icebreakers are being built to guide them. The export of grain from Russia is growing (already in the amount of over $ 30 billion). The interests of our companies and corporations (including state ones) are in India, Africa, Latin America and the Middle East. The safety of navigation and maritime trade can only be ensured by its own Navy. And this Fleet must correspond to the tasks facing it.
            I'm not even talking about ensuring complete domination in the so-called. "bastions" - areas of combat deployment of our naval strategic nuclear forces.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            and they will solve problems with the Star,

            It will be bankrupt and will be nationalized. Therefore, when it works as it should, it is difficult to say. the former owner failed. Let's see if the state can handle it.
            Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
            In addition to the fleet, we have ground forces and the aerospace forces, which also need to be re-equipped.

            It is necessary. Here are just neither AWACS aircraft, nor tankers, nor PLO aircraft, nor long-range reconnaissance aircraft, nor military transport aircraft (to replace the An-24, An-26, An-12) we have never created (a song about the Il-112 and The Il-114 seems to be eternal), the Il-76MD90A has not been mass-produced (and the fact that it was built over SO many years, pulls from the force for experimental production ... in grandfather's garage).
            All this is the result of the disgusting quality of state administration, the complete irresponsibility of "responsible" persons, and the complete indifference of the highest state officials to the security issues of the State entrusted to them.
            1. Liam
              Liam 22 May 2021 20: 53
              +11
              Quote: bayard
              The fact that the United States has learned to count money and make rational decisions (it’s time for them to say thank you to Trump is his merit) is obvious. But the fact that we are already building ships for an equal price (with our salaries and the cost of living in general) looks not good at all.
              Project 22350M is expected at a price of 650

              550 million of the American frigate is a hull, power plant, etc. Without electronic filling, BIUS, radars, missiles, which are under a separate contract with Raytheon EMNIP. The final design price with all filling is 850 million.
              Quote: bayard
              It will be bankrupt and will be nationalized. Therefore, when it works as it should, it is difficult to say. the former owner failed. Let's see if the state can handle it.

              You yourself and answered your own question

              Quote: bayard
              All this is the result of the disgusting quality of public administration, the complete irresponsibility of "responsible" persons, and the complete indifference of the highest government officials to the security issues of the State entrusted to them.
              1. bayard
                bayard 22 May 2021 21: 03
                +5
                Quote: Liam
                550 million of the American frigate is a hull, power plant, etc. Without electronic filling, BIUS, radars, missiles, which are under a separate contract with Raytheon EMNIP. The final design price with all filling is 850 million.

                Well, at least they reassured him, otherwise he had already decided that the Americans had performed a miracle.
                Quote: Liam
                You yourself and answered your own question

                I knew the answer to it.
                hi
                1. Liam
                  Liam 22 May 2021 21: 22
                  +6
                  Quote: bayard
                  Well, at least they reassured him, otherwise he had already decided that the Americans had performed a miracle.

                  Are you sure that the price of the Russian frigate is complete and final, with all the stuffing?)
                  Pricing in the Russian military-industrial complex is still a jungle
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 22 May 2021 22: 46
                    +2
                    This is the cost without ammunition - anti-ship missiles, missiles, shells, cartridges and personal belongings of the crew. The price may fluctuate depending on the dollar exchange rate, but in principle it has always been around $ 550 million. And in rubles we have inflation.
                    Quote: Liam
                    Pricing in the Russian military-industrial complex is still a jungle

                    This is the official figure, and on the head "Gorshkov. So serial (when they go standard) may turn out to be a little cheaper."
                    We, however, have not yet taken into account (probably) the cost of aimless downtime on the slipway.
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 22 May 2021 19: 48
          +1
          Quote: bayard
          It is time to introduce the barracks mode on the Zvezda until they start assembling the gearboxes at the speed and volume NECESSARY for the Fleet and industry.

          With the current "effective managers" and do not hope. But if you raise Stalin from the grave and give him 10 years, then it will work out, and not only the fleet.
          And the worst thing is that the decommissioned "Hazard Perry" can be transferred to the Skakuas. And this, unlike inflatable boats and even coast guard boats, is already quite serious warships.
          1. bayard
            bayard 22 May 2021 21: 08
            +4
            Even if the Sumerians have only the corvettes of the Turkish project, this will already be a problem. Not so much military as media provocative. After all, they will roam back and forth across the Kerch Strait at them ...
            It's time to return your lands to yourself. The 2014 inaction error needs to be corrected.
            1. Revolver
              Revolver 22 May 2021 21: 26
              +6
              Quote: bayard
              Even if the Sumerians have only the corvettes of the Turkish project
              That is unlikely. They themselves will build a horseradish, they have been picking up "Vladimir" for how many years, and the Turks will not give it up for beautiful eyes. And Pan Ataman Zelensky has no gold reserves.
              Quote: bayard
              It's time to return your lands to yourself. The 2014 inaction error needs to be corrected.
              That's for sure. It is time to close the project "Independent Ukraine" and restore the border with Poland as of at least 1939. Of course, of course, as of 1945, if Russia decides that it still needs Westerners.
            2. the most important
              the most important 22 May 2021 22: 20
              +1
              Quote: bayard
              It's time to return your lands to yourself. The 2014 inaction error needs to be corrected.

              And who will fix it?
              1. bayard
                bayard 22 May 2021 23: 07
                0
                Quote: the most important
                And who will fix it?

                Only the one who showed this indecision.
                Or his successor.
                In 2014, everything could be done without much effort and expense - in the wake of the national upsurge (Russian Spring, Crimea, etc.). But the continuation of the correct actions did not follow, and the people who rose to fight were abandoned.
                Now it will be much more difficult and expensive to do this. But leaving everything as it is is suicide for Russia. At Krajina-U, airfields are already being prepared for receiving NATO aviation, and near Odessa, a naval base for the United States and England is being equipped. The brainwashing of the population continues. If all this is not stopped, then such a neighborhood will constantly weaken Russia, bring her problems and losses, and if the curators of the Sumerians make such a decision, then war. Here, as in medicine, it is necessary to cut until the gangrene sets in.
                And cut not from yourself, but to yourself. For in this case, Russia will not only grow in land by regaining its own, but will also strengthen economically (you will not have to "feed" anyone, you yourself will be surprised how many bonuses will fall on your head at once), militarily strategically (the western borders will move aside to Poland, Romania, Slovakia), the mobilization potential of the Armed Forces will also grow, the domestic sales market will increase, unique industries will return to cooperation ... transit problems, ports, fertile land, and hardworking people will become a thing of the past. And the very “active minority” that seized power in 2014 either flees abroad, or, by a harsh court decision, will compensate for the damage done to the state and society.
                And never ask "who". You certainly won't be there. And we are already here.
                Russian is not the one to whom citizenship was registered in the passport, but the one who goes to death for his Russian name and sacrifices everything.
                And if you asked such a question, then it's time for you to think "are you Russian".
                Do not take offense, I personally did not want to offend you. But I firmly believe that the right to be called Russian still needs to be earned.
                And for clarity, I am writing from Donetsk.
                1. Osipov9391
                  Osipov9391 23 May 2021 02: 54
                  +3
                  Now American and NATO aircraft of all stripes (fighters, anti-submarine, bombers, reconnaissance and drones) are practically registered over the Black Sea near the Russian borders. And they fly (several times every day) through Ukraine. Already on an ongoing basis. This was not the case before. Are the crews arriving there? Are they choosing airfields for themselves and learning to navigate there? And yes, as everyone wrote everything - from B-1 to anti-submarine Poseidons and strategic reconnaissance drones.
                  So far, they are flying from bases in Europe ...
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 23 May 2021 05: 44
                    +3
                    Quote: Osipov9391
                    And they fly (several times every day) through Ukraine. Already on an ongoing basis. This was not the case before. Are the crews arriving there? Are they choosing airfields for themselves and learning to navigate there?

                    Now in Krajina-U they are preparing 5 airfields for receiving and, in the future, basing NATO aviation. The Sumerians do not have modern aviation, and in the event of a war with Russia, NATO aviation will provide them with air support. In any case, this is what they are preparing for. Endless military exercises in Europe, defamation of Russia on any far-fetched reason, threats, accusations, sanctions have become commonplace.
                    As well as regular flights of their reconnaissance and strike aircraft near our borders.
                    Not only in Europe.
                    In Alaska, a US Air Force exercise has just ended, where air defense breakthroughs in Kamchatka and an attack on our naval base with nuclear submarines were being practiced.
                    Japan is hastily converting its helicopter carriers into aircraft carriers under the F-35B and has removed the legislative limit on the military budget of 1% of GDP. Now they will arm themselves without restrictions. And today their military budget is larger than the Russian budget.
                    In such conditions, leaving the issue of the Russian lands and people of Little Russia, Novorossiya and Slobozhanshchina unresolved is a crime and a doom that the enemy will start an offensive immediately on Belgorod, Voronezh and Rostov.
                    As cannon fodder of the first wave, the Sumerians will go, followed by the Romanians, Poles, brothers Bulgarians and other Youngonatists. They will back them up with aviation and other striking power of the indigenous NATO and the United States. In the east, Japan will appear along the Kuril Islands, in the Caucasus and partly in Central Asia Turkey is already in charge (under the supervision of the British), the Americans leaving Afghanistan will finally release the ISIS members brought there from Iraq and Syria ...
                    By showing indecision in 2014, Russia has shown WEAKNESS.
                    "And the weak are beaten!" - said one well-known and to this day politician from Leningrad.
                    After all, he knew that they would be beaten, and yet he showed it.
                    And he didn't fix it.
                    He built pipes in NATO.
                    And to China, which is holding an ax behind his back with a smile.
                    A brotherly ax in the back is very Chinese.
                    ... A LOT and a lot have been missed ... but after throwing stones the time comes to collect them.
                    The "New Yalta" promised by some dreamers will not happen. This is obvious even to a well-known politician from Leningrad.
                    But I wanted so much ... For the Winter Olympics alone, they spent so much money that it was possible to build an aircraft carrier fleet from scratch ... with everything due for it - air wings, bases, piers, barracks, headquarters, warehouses, workshops, power plants and boiler houses , housing for officers and their families ... schools for their children ... airfields for basing air wings in bases ... and a complete set of escort ships.
                    The Olympics alone would be enough.
                    But there was also the FIFA World Cup ... a grandiose ... spiritually uplifting and heartbreaking spectacle ...
                    And he cost too ... like the Olympics ...
                    Like another Olympics ...
                    or as another aircraft carrier fleet of 6 aircraft carriers of air defense / anti-aircraft defense, air wings to them and all the basic infrastructure ...
                    The same as for the Olympics ... could have been built.
                    Instead of the Championship, it was possible to build a fleet of 50 Il-78MD90A tankers, and a fleet of 50 A-100 type AWACS, and another 100 Il-76MD90A for the VTA .... The airfield network, lost due to Serdyukov, could be restored ... To build PLO for Naval Aviation ... to revive MRA (naval missile-carrying) ... deploy a dozen fighter regiments for the same - Naval Aviation, in order to cover our naval base and threatened directions from the sea ...
                    It was possible to revive military educational institutions - military universities, destroyed by Serdyukov. To train specialists. Military ...
                    Pilots, sailors, air defense specialists ... and not to pull students after the military department ... not to transfer from artillery to air defense to operational work (!!!) ...
                    But the politician was busy with something else ... he flew ... with cranes ... walked in the mountains ... and helped "domestic" oligarchs with state money and benefits ... offshore registration ... and orientation ... then hard ... how not to help the shock workers of capitalist labor, who are our everything?

                    ... And now ... Yalta did not come out ... and about $ 100 billion for pipelines ... left ...
                    And combat aviation was left without controls and lighting of the air situation in the theater of operations ... without tankers ... which even strategists do not have enough ... what can we say about tactical aviation ... even though they all have fuel pick-up rods ... only refuel a little ...
                    "Well, how is it? After all, everything was so good ... everyone had so much fun at parades and balls ..." - ... thought Nikolai-2 after the arrest of him and his family ... "... And Tsushima already I seem to have forgotten ... and Port Arthur ... danced to the Japanese ... and half of Sakhalin ... and I got involved in the war not of my own ill will or of need ... but solely out of philanthropy towards French creditors ... who SO asked for help ... and the soldiers of the dead - women give birth to. " ...
                    And so until the very "Ipatievsky basement" did not understand anything ... the tsar is a loser.

                    We also have it now - as then.
                    The state was built "as under Nicholas-2" ... The Kremlin's mustache will not let you lie.
                    1. Osipov9391
                      Osipov9391 23 May 2021 14: 44
                      +2
                      Avkases and all types of US / NATO strike aircraft also appear in the Baltic States. They fly every day.
                      In the Far East, it is naive to consider Japan's plans for the 4 Kuril Islands. If they happen to take the ENTIRE Kuril ridge, Sakhalin, parts of Kamchatka and Primorsky Krai.
                      I consider the connivance of basing strategic submarines in Kamchatka - two new ones. They are practically defenseless, not only against the United States, even against Japan. Cover from the air is given to them by the old MiG-31 (it seems that they have not even been upgraded in BM) at the airbase in Elizovo. Anti-submarine aircraft, radar patrol aircraft, tankers and attack aircraft at the Pacific Fleet are absent as a class from the word at all. A bit of Il-38 and Tu-142M3. But there are no more than a dozen and those are not modernized. Only one MAPL ...
                      So, probably in Kamchatka it is advisable to keep anti-aircraft "Antei" and multipurpose "Pike"?
                      And yes, the Pacific Fleet is actually divided into two fleets with a large distance between them - surface ships / submarines in Primorye and strategic / multipurpose nuclear submarines in Kamchatka.
                      Is this not a mistake?
                      1. bayard
                        bayard 23 May 2021 15: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        In the Far East, it is naive to consider Japan's plans for the 4 Kuril Islands. If they happen to take the ENTIRE Kuril ridge, Sakhalin, parts of Kamchatka and Primorsky Krai.

                        It is unlikely that they will decide on the Primorsky Territory - China has plans for it. But the Kurils (all) and, possibly, Sakhalin, the samurai in dreams see their own ... as in the former Empire of the Rising Sun.
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        I consider the connivance of basing strategic submarines in Kamchatka - two new ones. They are practically defenseless, not only against the United States, even against Japan.

                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        Only one MAPL ...
                        So, probably in Kamchatka it is advisable to keep anti-aircraft "Antei" and multipurpose "Pike"?

                        And I think so and have already written about it. All strategists should be transferred to the Northern Fleet as soon as possible. There they will be better protected and able to deploy more safely. And in Kamchatka, leave MAPLs and SSGNs, including several new "Ash".
                        Although instead of "Ash" it would be more correct to build "Borei-K" - twice cheaper in money per unit, 2,5 times more powerful in a salvo, in aggregate - 5 times more efficient in terms of money invested for the effect.
                        The fleet must be urgently built.
                        It is not possible with ship gearboxes to make a power plant on electric propulsion (diesel and / or turbo generators and electric motors on shafts. There is less noise, a gearbox is not necessary, on icebreakers it is worked out.
                        And it is necessary to build a Fleet at all the main theaters
                        And not only in St. Petersburg and Kaliningrad.
                        On the Black Sea . The same "Zaliv" could build frigates - production capacities and areas allow. Shipyard "More".
                        In the Far East, it is necessary to build not only at the Amur Shipyard, but also in Vladivostok or Bolshoy Kamen. It is too early to order an aircraft carrier for the Far East "Zvezda", but it is quite possible to practice on frigates.
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        And yes, the Pacific Fleet is actually divided into two fleets with a large distance between them - surface ships / submarines in Primorye and strategic / multipurpose nuclear submarines in Kamchatka.
                        Is this not a mistake?

                        This is Geography. Keeping a submarine and NSNF forces in Primorye is a crime, a stand under the first blow, deployment difficulties. And to have large forces in Kamchatka, there is no opportunity. It seems that all corvettes of the 20385 series will be based in Kamchatka. Diesel-electric submarines of new construction, seemingly also there, on duty in the straits of the Kuril ridge and at about. Matua. This is correct, but not enough.
                        Strategists from Kamchatka must be urgently removed, the Pacific Fleet should be strengthened (and in fact, built anew), and when the Pacific Fleet gains strength, the strategists can be returned.
                    2. Osipov9391
                      Osipov9391 23 May 2021 14: 47
                      +1
                      Now the United States is planning to reactivate the strip on Shemiya Island from the Commanders. It is next to Kamchatka. Raptors and Avaks from Alaska will be transferred there.
                      1. bayard
                        bayard 23 May 2021 15: 39
                        0
                        It is an act of peacefulness and concern for polar bears, walruses and freedom of navigation.
                        In Kamchatka and Chukotka, an urgent need to strengthen the aviation group of fighter and strike aircraft.
                      2. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 23 May 2021 19: 06
                        0
                        In the Baltics, the United States and NATO are building up all types of troops and weapons. What will not happen if there is a direct threat of strike and capture of Pskov, Novgorod, Smolensk and Tver? There is nothing to say about Kaliningrad - all objects there can be covered with heavy artillery and MLRS from Poland and Lithuania. Including ships in the base and aircraft.
                      3. bayard
                        bayard 23 May 2021 19: 35
                        0
                        We, with all "NATO forces", will solve the Baltic states in 2 - 3 days.
                        Finally.
                        This will have to be done very quickly in order to avoid problems with Kaliningrad.
                        Poland, in principle, could count on the return of the status of Warsaw province, but such a right must first be earned.
                        ... GDR ...
                        East Germans strongly complain that we abandoned them ... and now they are tortured by the "people of the Sodom tribe" ... the children are taken away ... they are dressed in thongs ... women rule the armies ... they complain very much ... We must think about it - Porusy, Palabs, Lusatians and other Western Slavs (in our common parlance - Germans) are brothers by blood. And it is a sin to abandon your own in trouble.
                        Little Russia, Novorossiya, Slobozhanshchina, Chervona Rus - must return to their native harbor as soon as possible.
                        England is no problem. Since the days of Khrushchev, five warheads with a capacity of 5Mt were enough for it. Now one is enough. If it is on a bottom land mine with a capacity of up to 100 Mt. At the same time, we will rinse northern Europe.
                        And the USA without England is like a horseman without a head.
                        Everything is solvable.
                        But patients have exacerbation.
                      4. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 23 May 2021 23: 36
                        0
                        And the fact that Putin and Zelensky take so long to agree on a meeting is not normal from the word at all? And Putin shouldn't have met him? They want to discuss Crimea, the Minsk agreements and, in fact, "pushing" Donbass back to Ukraine.
                        How will the people in Donbass assess and evaluate this?
                      5. bayard
                        bayard 23 May 2021 23: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        And the fact that Putin and Zelensky take so long to agree on a meeting

                        Nobody needs it, so "long" can flow smoothly endlessly.
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        And Putin shouldn't have met him?

                        The Kremlin knows best with whom they need to meet. And since no benefit is foreseen, it most likely will not be.
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        They want to discuss Crimea, the Minsk agreements and, in fact, "pushing" Donbass back to Ukraine.

                        Nobody wants to discuss this (except for the Ukrainian side), and nobody will push anyone over. In any case, to this "Ukraine".
                        Quote: Osipov9391
                        How will the people in Donbass assess and evaluate this?

                        No way. Nobody even thinks about it - everyone has received and continues to receive Russian passports.
                        And the people of Ukraine also need to prepare for this.
                        And everything will go on the mend.
                      6. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 24 May 2021 02: 03
                        0
                        Wouldn't the people in the Baltics and Georgia begin to cleanse themselves of these puppet pro-American regimes?
                        Did Medvedev do the right thing in August 2008 when Saakashvili was not overthrown and his man was not put there?
                      7. bayard
                        bayard 24 May 2021 11: 23
                        0
                        Saakashvidi in 2008 should not have been "overthrown", but detained and taken to Moscow for trial - as a war criminal. For the massacres of Russian citizens and Russian military personnel. Moreover, there are peacekeepers.
                        And the citizens of Georgia and the Baltic states, of course, need to cleanse themselves. First of all, to clear the brain. A pure, unclouded mind will tell you the correct nature of further actions.
                      8. Osipov9391
                        Osipov9391 24 May 2021 12: 45
                        0
                        And Saakashvili's crimes have no statute of limitations? By the way, in Tbilisi there was and is an excellent plant for the production of Su-25. It was modernized in the late 80s and early 90s for the production of the Su-39 (Su-25TM). There they managed to make a little more than a dozen of them and transfer them to Russia. It turned out to be a good plane. The newest attack aircraft was. But under Serdyukov they were all written off.
      3. ROSS_51
        ROSS_51 25 May 2021 02: 51
        -1
        Quote: bayard

        Now in Krajina-U they are preparing 5 airfields for receiving and, in the future, basing NATO aviation. The Sumerians do not have modern aviation, and in the event of a war with Russia, NATO aviation will provide them with air support. In any case, this is what they are preparing for. Endless military exercises in Europe, defamation of Russia on any far-fetched reason, threats, accusations, sanctions have become commonplace.
        As well as regular flights of their reconnaissance and strike aircraft near our borders.
        Not only in Europe.
        In Alaska, a US Air Force exercise has just ended, where air defense breakthroughs in Kamchatka and an attack on our naval base with nuclear submarines were being practiced.
        ness. And today they have a military budget larger than the Russian budget.
        In such conditions, leaving the issue of the Russian lands and people of Little Russia, Novorossiya and Slobozhanshchina unresolved is a crime and a doom that the enemy will start an offensive immediately on Belgorod, Voronezh and Rostov.
        As cannon fodder of the first wave, the Sumerians will go, followed by the Romanians, Poles, brothers Bulgarians and other Youngonatists. They will back them up with aviation and other striking power of the indigenous NATO and the United States. In the east, Japan will appear along the Kuril Islands, in the Caucasus and partly in Central Asia Turkey is already in charge (under the supervision of the British), the Americans leaving Afghanistan will finally release the ISIS members brought there from Iraq and Syria ...
        .

        You are either a militant fanatic or a provocateur ..
        If we discard all these horror stories of yours, tell .. Why Russia Ukraine?
        A foothold for NATO? Well, then what should we do with the Baltics? With Finland? With Norway? Also move the border to the west?
        In 2014, exactly what was planned to be done was done. Neither Donbass nor Lugansk were included in the plan and still are not. With Crimea, it would be oklematsya-black hole for hundreds of billions. But with him, everything is clear, the game was worth the candle. And with Ukraine, answer, why does Russia need Ukraine?
        1. bayard
          bayard 25 May 2021 10: 48
          0
          Quote: ROSS_51
          You are either a militant fanatic or a provocateur ..

          No, I am a very peaceful person with a military education who has been living in the war for 7 years.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          If we put aside all these horror stories of yours-

          And refute (only reasonably) at least one.
          There is nothing to justify the appalling quality of public administration. Even a "cunning plan" that outsmarted itself.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          .Why does Russia need Ukraine?

          Go to my profile and read my comments on this topic there. I've written a lot about this. And there is a lot.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          A foothold for NATO? Well, then what should we do with the Baltics?

          To do the same with the Baltics as with Poland, and with the Baltics they did on the eve of WWII - these are our lands, for them Russian gold and blood were paid for, and this is a matter of our security.
          When the Battle of Stalingrad was blazing, terrible battles were fought near Voronezh. And the Battle of Kursk was fought in t.ch. in the outskirts of Belgorod. Now the border runs along these lines. And even further to the East - along the Donbass - already near Rostov.
          Remember in what years WWII the front line passed there?
          But then Comrade Stalin did not relax the rolls, did not fly with cranes in the clouds and did not amuse himself with fishing.
          He worked .
          He WORKED all his life for the benefit of the State of Social Justice created by him.
          And he never indulged the enemy.
          "Kemska Volost"?
          Have you decided to trade your lands?
          How old are you that you are so illiterate?
          Quote: ROSS_51
          In 2014, exactly what was planned to be done was done. Neither Donbass nor Lugansk were included in the plan and still are not.

          Was the creation of the Eurasian Union in the plans?
          And now it DOES NOT INCLUDE!
          Why
          Because they don't cooperate with losers.
          They do not enter into an alliance with a traitor.
          The weak and weak-willed are despised.
          Have you noticed these changes among the peoples of Asia and their leaderships?
          And there they very subtly feel the manifestations of weakness, lack of will, cowardice.
          Look at the attitude of China towards the Russian Federation ... Do you like the attitude of the leadership (and the population) of this country to the leadership (and the population) of our country?
          They directly and openly call us and our leadership TRAITORS.
          I had a chance to drive the Chinese delegation around Moscow in the fall of 1991 - shortly after the coup of Yeltsin and Co. ... I remember very well HOW their faces changed when we drove into Lubyanskaya Square with an empty pedestal of the Dzerzhinsky monument ... They were stunned.
          They just shook their heads and repeated two words - "We must restore."
          And at home they did not allow this.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          ... With Crimea, it would be oklematsya-black hole for hundreds of billions.

          You are not mistaken with the color of this "hole"?
          Shipyard "More", shipyard "Zaliv" and naval base in Sevastopol alone cover these costs a hundred times.
          And these expenses are for our own development.
          But I see that you also feel sorry for this money.
          Psychological and moral "Ukrainianism of the brain" - "My hut is on the edge".
          How is your position different from the position of the enraged Sumerians?
          Destruction ... crushing ... decay ... annihilation.
          RF is not Russia!
          Russia is Great Russia, Little Russia, New Russia, Belarus, Slobozhanshchina, Chervona Rus. So soon you will only call the castle Moscow "Russia".
          Russian is not an entry in a passport column. And not citizenship. Russian is one who stands for his Russian name, for his language and lands to the end.
          "We are Russia" - the main character said in the film "Kandahar".
          I don’t know who you are.
          Maybe it's just too young a man to talk about such serious things ... or maybe THIS is your position in life.
          And write to you
          Quote: ROSS_51
          -Why Russia Ukraine?

          I won't. Go to my profile and find it yourself. I've written a lot about this.
        2. ROSS_51
          ROSS_51 26 May 2021 01: 50
          0
          Quote: bayard
          Look at the attitude of China towards the Russian Federation ... Do you like the attitude of the leadership (and the population) of this country to the leadership (and the population) of our country?
          They directly and openly call us and our leadership TRAITORS.
          I had a chance to ride the Chinese delegation around Moscow in the fall of 1991 - shortly after the coup of Yeltsin and Co. ... I remember very well ..

          I don't give a damn about the attitude of the Chinese towards us. Are we the TRAITORS? Maybe this is your education gaps? We are called traitors by those people who were 19 years old enough to forget who liberated them from the Japanese with their blood, and, not giving a damn about the 30-year treaty of friendship, alliance and mutual assistance, started shooting at our guys in Damansky? What, was it very embarrassing in front of .. friends? Remember well ???
          Quote: bayard
          Quote: ROSS_51
          ... With Crimea, it would be oklematsya-black hole for hundreds of billions.

          You are not mistaken with the color of this "hole"?
          Shipyard "More", shipyard "Zaliv" and naval base in Sevastopol alone cover these costs a hundred times.
          And these expenses are for our own development.
          But I see that you also feel sorry for this money.

          I see you are a master of phrases to cut and take meaning out of context? This is how the original phrase sounds.
          With Crimea, it would be oklematsya-black hole for hundreds of billions. But with him everything is clear - the game was worth the candle

          Money is just not a pity, there is money .. 6 aircraft carriers there, 100 planes there .. Napoleon kitchen .. Who will make them? There are no capacities, no specialists. .. There is no point in citing facts ..
          Quote: bayard
          Psychological and moral "Ukrainianism of the brain" - "My hut is on the edge".
          How is your position different from the position of the enraged Sumerians?
          Destruction ... crushing ... decay ... annihilation.
          RF is not Russia!
          Russia is Great Russia, Little Russia, New Russia, Belarus, Slobozhanshchina, Chervona Rus. So soon you will only call the castle Moscow "Russia".
          Russian is not an entry in a passport column. And not citizenship. Russian is one who stands for his Russian name, for his language and lands to the end.

          Did you get your passport of a Citizen of the Russian Federation on the battlefield near the destroyed stronghold? Who are you..uncle .., so that I can execute the commission on racial purity here? Who are you .. uncle .. to portray the conscience of the nation here?
          Where were the guys from Donetsk themselves in 91? Why then quietly set sail from Russia? Maybe with the hope of a better life? What the hell, as in a Russian fairy tale, 33 years old on the stove (no) watched how Banderlog reproduce and grow up? And they began to stir only when these Banderlog came to cut them, huh? Who has a hut there on the edge? What about the position in life?
          Quote: bayard

          There is nothing to justify the appalling quality of public administration. Even a "cunning plan" that outsmarted itself.

          Where would you be now if not for this "terrifying management"? Who drove the columns of armored vehicles from Rostov to Donetsk? Who brought the loot in bags? Who made the boilers in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo-miners or what ... alone? Who just started the tank engines 3 weeks ago, and the APU's spring offensive ended right away?
          Quote: bayard
          I don’t know who you are.
          Maybe it's just too young a man to talk about such serious things ... or maybe THIS is your position in life.

          I have been an adult uncle for a long time, I am 51 years old. Your imperial dreams about mnogorossiyu vparivayte young stupid, young people believe in all sorts of crap .. One consolation .. that "terrifying management" will not let people like you put hundreds of thousands of Russian guys for your unrealizable fantasies.
        3. bayard
          bayard 26 May 2021 04: 16
          0
          Quote: ROSS_51
          We are called traitors by those people who were 19 years old enough to forget who liberated them from the Japanese with their blood, and, not giving a damn about the 30-year treaty of friendship, alliance and mutual assistance, started shooting at our guys in Damansky?

          Quote: ROSS_51
          Remember well ???

          I remember very well, my uncle fought in Damanskoye. Not a border guard - as part of the very low-altitude radar platoon that was sent there according to the combat schedule. The commander of the same P-15. So I know about the events of those from the participants, I later served with his former commander in one unit.
          And they consider us traitors since 1955, and rightly so. But this did not justify their behavior and attitude towards the USSR one iota, for this you need to know the Chinese, their mentality. Gratitude, loyalty, selflessness, this is not about them - at the mental, genetic level.
          But in 1991 we became traitors again, destroying our own state and surrendering it to the enemy. This was not just a state betrayal, the very idea of ​​socialism was betrayed, and they took it very painfully, realizing that they wanted the same ... and the same forces.
          And they kept their state. And they took all the best from our experience and heritage. Mainly - the Stalinist legacy of state building.
          That is why, in their eyes, we are traitors. And traitors to themselves. Their State, their independence, the choice of their ancestors.
          And the Mausoleum sewn with plywood shields (which they honor, and we are shy) during parades, the Mausoleum, at the foot of which Hitler's standards were thrown, every year testifies to this betrayal.
          They never thought that we had betrayed them (if you could interpret it that way).
          Quote: ROSS_51
          .6 aircraft carriers there, 100 planes there .. Napoleon kitchen .. Who will make them? There are no capacities, no specialists.

          Are we taking it out of context too?
          I said that in 4 - 5 years the laying of the first such ship on the "Zaliv" in Kerch is POSSIBLE. Not earlier . And on the "Zvezda", where the "management" you revered, is going to build aircraft carriers (not at all light, but heavy, atomic in 80 - 000 tons), this is possible in general - at the very end of this decade and not earlier.
          My understanding of macroeconomics allows me to talk about this, one of my programs in 1992 saved one of the leading sectors of the economy, on which this economy is to a large extent retained. This is an oil industry that was on the verge of collapse in the summer of 1992, due to the outstanding leadership of its new owners and in the midst of hyperinflation.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          Did you get your passport of a Citizen of the Russian Federation on the battlefield near the destroyed stronghold? Who are you ... uncle.

          No, not at the damaged tank. I was actually born in Russia - in the Chelyabinsk region. , in childhood with his parents moved to Ukraine (Ukrainian SSR), graduated from a military university in the Baltic States, served in the Transcaucasus ... worked in Moscow. At one time I communicated with ministers, and with deputies, and with security officials. I talked with Khodorkovsky, Nevzlin, Abramovich (these are his partners - we rolled the Chinese delegation around Moscow in the fall of 1991) ... A lot was happening in front of my eyes then.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          Who made the boilers in Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo-miners or what ... alone?

          This was done by my friends and the friends of my friends. And my guys in Logvinovo closed the ring of the Debaltsevsky cauldron. But I was not there, I just returned from captivity.
          And I received the passport in a general manner, like everyone else with us, because the SBU did not return my old passport during the exchange.
          My qualifications and life experience allow me to judge the quality of management. Although I myself once refused to participate in such management. Not here, in Moscow, for a long time.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          Who just started the tank engines 3 weeks ago, and the APU's spring offensive ended right away?

          This has already happened more than once, only these "completions" did not solve the issues. And they didn't decide.
          If the issue with this abscess is not closed, Russia will continue to weaken.
          For all Eastern peoples there have never been any "Ukrainians" or "Belarusians". We were all Russians to them. And the rest of the world is exactly the same. And the fact that for 7 years Russia has not been able to solve its internal question (and this is what they all believe), if it is ready to give up its people and the land of its ancestors, it means that it will not be able and will not want to protect others - its allies. In 2014, the joint forces of the CSTO were to be created under the patronage of Russia. This was to be one of the main steps to create the Eurasian Union ...
          And who is striving for this today?
          The former participants are no longer eager to "rally at the hand of Russia." They consider it weak and unreliable, they are already looking towards Turkey ... And it is very unpleasant for me to write about it.
          Quote: ROSS_51
          I have been an adult uncle for a long time, I am 51 years old.

          And still younger than me. But it does not matter . I didn’t want to offend anyone, but I’m ready to substantiate every word I say. If Russia does not gather back into a fist ... will not last long. And the existing power has completely different views on life, peace and people. And the creation of a powerful, sovereign state ... is not included in their plans.
          Alas.
          And I definitely do not call to the "barricades".
  • ROSS_51
    ROSS_51 23 May 2021 18: 59
    -1
    Quote: Nagan

    With the current "effective managers" and do not hope. But if you raise Stalin from the grave and give him 10 years, then it will work out, and not only the fleet.
    And the worst thing is that the decommissioned "Hazard Perry" can be transferred to the Skakuas. And this, unlike inflatable boats and even coast guard boats, is already quite serious warships.

    You raise one Stalin-10 million put-such is the price of Stalin's "effective" management. What, can't wait to start scribbling denunciations?
    Ukraine will not give Perry even if they wanted to. There is no technical or material base for this.
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 24 May 2021 08: 35
      +1
      Quote: ROSS_51
      You raise one Stalin-10 million put-such is the price of Stalin's "effective" management. What, can't wait to start scribbling denunciations?

      Denunciations are part of business throughout Europe. Stalin did not come up with anything new.
      Live in Germany, for example, and see how many denunciations there will be on you in a couple of years from neighbors and colleagues.
      -10 million is also a stupid cranberry from Solzhenitsyn.
  • Barberry25
    Barberry25 23 May 2021 22: 13
    0
    and they there, in principle, will not be able to make them in marketable quantities ... it is necessary to build new workshops with modern equipment ... start up, and then, after removing the bulk of the problems, look at the modernization of the main production
    1. bayard
      bayard 23 May 2021 22: 56
      0
      For "Zvezda-Reduktor" we bought a lot of new gear-cutting and other machines, the equipment was installed and started to work. There will be enough capacities (bought so that it would be enough for ALL the needs of building the Fleet with a margin), the issue is in organizing production, training personnel and reaching the required capacity / productivity.
      They have already delivered the first domestic gearboxes to the customer. Serial assembly is in progress.
      But now "Zvezda", which "reducer" is going bankrupt because of the disruption in the supply of high-speed DMZels for the MRK "Karakurt". Order failed. Therefore, fines were piled through the court and, as the Guarantor said, all enterprises that would disrupt or threaten to disrupt the defense order would be nationalized. This is what we seem to be observing.
      1. Barberry25
        Barberry25 24 May 2021 10: 53
        0
        the main thing is not to be like with Pella ... when at first the Ministry of Defense took the ships to the parade, and then slapped a fine for ships not delivered on time ..
  • lucul
    lucul 22 May 2021 21: 19
    -2
    This frigate is much better balanced and has a VERY good price tag.

    It is almost 2 tons more than Gorshkov.
    32 CD against 24 at Gorshkov. But which ones on Gorshkov - Caliber, Onyx, Zircon.
    1. bayard
      bayard 22 May 2021 23: 29
      0
      Quote: lucul
      It is almost 2 tons more than Gorshkov.

      And this is almost a third. For ships of such VI, this is a lot.
      And precisely the fact that with such a difference in VI, the price of both is declared equal ... alarming.
      but ... I have already been corrected, it turned out that this is the price of a naked ship without weapons systems, ZLK, etc. The total price is about 850 million dollars. ... So my heart was relieved a little, but if we take into account the difference in VI, it still leaves an approximate parity per ton of VI.
      Quote: lucul
      32 KR versus 24 on Gorshkov

      Here, too, is not entirely true. In the UKSK, they will mainly have long-range missiles, but 16 anti-ship missiles in inclined launchers are good at leveling the balance of defensive and strike weapons.
      And on "Gorshkov" there are only 2 UKSKs for 16 KR, and on version 22350.1 (starting from No. 5) there will already be 32 KRs in 4 UKSKs (apparently two in two rows).
      Quote: lucul
      But which ones on Gorshkov - Caliber, Onyx, Zircon.

      They have a Tomahawk for our Caliber, and for Onyx they are planning anti-ship missiles based on a heavy missile defense system with a range of at least 450 km. , and "Zircon" is not yet in service and it has not yet confirmed the declared characteristics of its maximum range ("over 1000 km." And this is not at all what we need. We need an anti-ship missile with a range of 450 km in order to strike without entering the range of enemy AUGs.
      And the most important thing is that we are armed with ONLY 2 pcs. such frigates. And they carry TOTAL 16 CR in their cells. Despite the fact that 8 of them will have to be taken under the PLUR, because the frigates have no long-range torpedoes. And they must have at least 3 units on each of their 6 fleets (Pacific Fleet, Northern Fleet, Black Sea Fleet). This is not counting the 22350M, which are also planned to be built 12 - 18 pieces.
      ... They are planning ... But they are not building.
    2. Barberry25
      Barberry25 23 May 2021 22: 17
      0
      16 anti-aircraft missiles for the American against 16 for the old Gorshka, 24 for the improved (although they write that 32 missiles were able to be inserted) ... and 32 anti-aircraft missiles against 32 Redoubt air defense systems.
      1. bayard
        bayard 24 May 2021 11: 45
        0
        Quote: Barberry25
        16 pkr for the American versus 16 for the old Pot,

        "Gorshkov" in 16 cells will never have 16 anti-ship missiles. From 4 to 8 cells will always be occupied by the PLUR "Answer".
        Quote: Barberry25
        24 for the improved (although they write that 32 missiles were able to be inserted) ... and 32 anti-aircraft air defense missiles against 32 Redut air defense systems, but the Americans have a close air defense system in the form of a Frame, and we are sad with that.

        The Americans have long-range missiles in their arsenal of air defense systems, which Gorshkov does not have.
        And you need to remember that 2000 tons of "extra" VI allow you to place a lot of things ... except for strike weapons.
        1. Barberry25
          Barberry25 24 May 2021 12: 52
          0
          laughing just like the Americans do, instead of anti-aircraft missiles, it will be necessary to put a flat ... By the way, it is not necessary for Gorshkov to upload an answer to the UVP when there is a Package-NK ... and yes ... so that it is not loaded, we still have a full Redoubt outfit , but the Americans will have to sacrifice something .. In fact, all the air defense units of the American frigate will be occupied either by air defense. or PLO .. about any "32 PKR" there is no talk and can not go from the word at all, And with the commissioning improved Gorshkova amrikanets will be very pale smotsya ..
          1. bayard
            bayard 24 May 2021 16: 03
            0
            Quote: Barberry25
            just like the Americans do, instead of anti-aircraft missiles, it will be necessary to put a plane.

            I don't know if they have PLURs launched from the UKSK, but they should have torpedoes. They will have the UKSK mainly for missiles and Tomahawks, which have already been taught again in the anti-ship missile system.
            Quote: Barberry25
            Gorshkov, it is not necessary to upload a response to the UVP when there is a Package-NK.

            The "Packet" has a range of only 20 km. , this is not enough, the enemy will reach with torpedoes from a distance of up to 50 - 65 km. , therefore, PLUR is needed - for parity in the range of destruction and for anticipation in defeat due to the speed of delivery of PLUR to the target.
            Quote: Barberry25
            .And yes .. so as not to be loaded, we still have a full Redoubt outfit, and the Americans will have to sacrifice something ..

            But they have long-range missiles and a truncated "Aegis" in their BC, I think 16 - 24 cells will be occupied by them. And for close combat, they have RAM.
            Quote: Barberry25
            .In fact, all the air defense units at the American frigate will be occupied either by air defense. Or by PLO ... not about any "32 pkr" there is no talk

            In the UVP, the American will have from 8 to 16 "Tomahawks" for work on the ground or in the version of anti-ship missiles, but with 16 more anti-ship missiles in inclined launchers.
            Quote: Barberry25
            And with the commissioning of the improved Gorshkov, the American citizen will look very pale ..

            In battle, the ship to the ship "Gorshkov" looks preferable - it has a much more serious anti-ship missile system, even without the "Zircon". But the Americans order a frigate for specific purposes - convoy and anti-submarine service, as well as in the formation of an air defense order. Its speed is only 26 knots, which looks unconvincing even against the background of the Gorshkov's 29 knots, which speaks of the ship's purely escort and anti-submarine functions. And they have very good anti-submarine helicopters.
            But the presence of long-range missiles is the strong point of their frigate.
            1. Barberry25
              Barberry25 24 May 2021 18: 30
              -1
              and Asrok's 28 range is + 7,5 km, the range of the torpedo itself ... not so much ... About long-range missiles ... but what's the point of having a range of more than 150 km? Those missiles that they can load in theory should intercept satellites at low orbits or old supersonic rockets .. because of the same zircon, they will no longer be able to work effectively .. and yes .. we count .. 32 launchers .. at least half the air defense needs to be loaded, then 8 more submarines are needed .. and what remains? axes? there are no "8 pkr in the VPU" -then you farted into a puddle .. I already wrote about the missile defense system. He will not intercept high-altitude Zircons, and he will not notice low-altitude calibers further than 32 km ... when they already go out to the overwhelming sound ... these frigates are an attempt to get at least something ... because all previous projects except BERKs did not go to them ... .. again they will have a price tag of 40 lard ... provided that the same Pot costs 1 in the Y-best version ..
  • Barberry25
    Barberry25 23 May 2021 22: 09
    0
    you wrote nonsense about 32 air defense missile systems under anti-ship missiles .. no ship will completely abandon air defense for the sake of shock capabilities .. a maximum of 8 anti-aircraft missiles will be shoved in
  • yehat2
    yehat2 24 May 2021 08: 31
    0
    Quote: bayard
    It's time to enter the barracks mode on the "Zvezda" until they start assembling the gearboxes

    on the star, the complete decomposition of the management of the enterprise
    there is no sane organization of production, there is no sane planning.
    The workers who came there by invitation begin to flee because of the disgusting conditions and the deception of the administration. There are already regular meetings of disgruntled workers and there have been 2 (or 3) strikes.
    And there is no one to replace them - in our country there are not so many highly qualified metalworking specialists.
    Despite the huge investments, the enterprise is experiencing a serious lack of even working capital for normal operation - everything has been plundered.
    there is no hope for this venture in the near future.
    effective managers have ruined even this rather simple and promising project.
    1. bayard
      bayard 24 May 2021 11: 49
      0
      Unfortunately, this only testifies to the fact that the highest state authorities do not care deeply about the issues of rearmament, defense and security of our country.
  • Paul zewike
    Paul zewike 22 May 2021 13: 49
    -3
    In the picture, it seems, a Chinese destroyer :)
  • Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 22 May 2021 13: 50
    -10%
    in 2026, the first Constellation frigate with an option for another 9 ships.
    Bourgeois and imperialists! am
    1. Galleon
      Galleon 22 May 2021 13: 59
      +13
      Quote: Uncle Lee
      Bourgeois and imperialists!

      Opachki! Who are we? belay recourse wassat
      1. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 22 May 2021 14: 03
        -1
        Quote: Galleon
        Who are we?

        Andrei hi I will not tell you a secret .... Still be upset on such a beautiful spring evening! crying
        1. Galleon
          Galleon 22 May 2021 14: 06
          +5
          Vladimir hi , then let me answer myself. And we are COMRADE OFFICERS soldier wink
          1. Uncle lee
            Uncle lee 22 May 2021 14: 12
            -5
            Sergeants and petty officers, sailors and privates! soldier
            PS For admirals and generals I can’t say anything, I don’t know anything close ... Unfortunately!
            1. sleeve
              sleeve 22 May 2021 15: 47
              +3
              Phew ... And then I thought it was time to check out from the site)))
              1. Uncle lee
                Uncle lee 22 May 2021 15: 52
                +1
                - Learn, brother, take barriers!
                Hold on my boy
                Do not die twice.
                Nothing in our life can
                Kick out of the saddle! -
                Such a saying
                The major was. hi
      2. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 23 May 2021 01: 55
        0
        Quote: Galleon
        Who are we?

        Judging by the minuses, we are also bourgeois and imperialists ... It's a shame ...
        1. Galleon
          Galleon 23 May 2021 11: 12
          +1
          Yes, I'm dumbfounded myself. Two friends joked among themselves, and such a superficial reaction. There is a group of people on VO who do not accept or do not understand jokes. request
          1. Uncle lee
            Uncle lee 23 May 2021 11: 31
            0
            Quote: Galleon
            do not understand the joke

            Andrei hi Straight as a rail ... It even becomes insulting for the people! belay
        2. yehat2
          yehat2 24 May 2021 12: 54
          +1
          Quote: Uncle Lee
          we are also bourgeois and imperialists

          our empire was built in a separate CIS. There is a metropolis - MSC and there are colonies - beyond the Moscow Ring Road. Even the bringing of blacks, i.e. guest workers, there are platations.
          Everything is like in an empire over which the sun never sets.
  • knn54
    knn54 22 May 2021 14: 01
    -1
    And what's wrong with a promising Constellation-class frigate? Or they didn't wait until the end of the project.
    Some kind of incomprehensible urgency.
    And why not allow frigates to appear on the Black Sea.
    The Yankes are in full swing and ONLY on their own are modernizing the base near Ochakovo - nothing at all to the Crimea.
    1. Artemion3
      Artemion3 22 May 2021 14: 11
      -15%
      They will not appear on the Black Sea, only Berks, the range of frigates does not reach
      1. bayard
        bayard 22 May 2021 15: 58
        +8
        Everything they have holds out, these are the ships of the ocean zone. And they have VI like our BOD 1155.
    2. bayard
      bayard 22 May 2021 16: 07
      +5
      Quote: knn54
      Some kind of incomprehensible urgency.

      The urgency is quite understandable - China is building a fleet at a rate 4 times higher than the US fleet is being built / updated. The Yankees are sorely lacking in fleet combat units to be present in all the places they need.
      And based on the PRICE of these frigates - only 550 million dollars (exactly the same as our pr. 22350 costs), this is just the optimal ship for rapidly increasing the number of the fleet.
      But their frigate is 1,5 times larger (more VI), much better armed (32 CR in the UVP, 16 anti-ship missiles in inclined launchers, two helicopters (!), Launchers for hydroacoustic buoys) ... and at the same time it costs the same ... Capitalism and embezzlement have already brought to the point that it costs more to produce weapons in our country ...
      1. Niko
        Niko 22 May 2021 16: 31
        +2
        Quote: bayard
        Quote: knn54
        Some kind of incomprehensible urgency.

        The urgency is quite understandable - China is building a fleet at a rate 4 times higher than the US fleet is being built / updated. The Yankees are sorely lacking in fleet combat units to be present in all the places they need.
        And based on the PRICE of these frigates - only 550 million dollars (exactly the same as our pr. 22350 costs), this is just the optimal ship for rapidly increasing the number of the fleet.
        But their frigate is 1,5 times larger (more VI), much better armed (32 CR in the UVP, 16 anti-ship missiles in inclined launchers, two helicopters (!), Launchers for hydroacoustic buoys) ... and at the same time it costs the same ... Capitalism and embezzlement have already brought to the point that it costs more to produce weapons in our country ...

        They brought it, yes, but I don’t think that capitalism is to blame, in the states it’s dear, and nothing, they live. It's just that under any system, a thief remains a thief, d ... crayfish, etc. And the current "power" pulled up this very contingent to all posts
      2. yehat2
        yehat2 24 May 2021 12: 57
        +1
        Quote: bayard
        The Yankees are sorely lacking in fleet combat units to be present in all the places they need.

        the possibilities of countries are growing, and the United States is no longer strong enough to have superiority everywhere.
        Previously, they blocked one USSR. With difficulty, but on the whole it worked out.
        Now India, China, Iran and a number of other countries have entered the sea and there is not enough for all, and the NATO allies are reducing their fleets. The United States is now holding South America with difficulty under its influence and this also requires resources.
        1. bayard
          bayard 24 May 2021 16: 14
          +1
          Quote: yehat2
          Now India, China, Iran have entered the sea

          Iran does not yet pose any threat at sea, Iran has no decent ships.
          They are now actively spilling India, promising support against China, and the Indians are maneuvering in full in order to observe their interest and not quarrel with Russia ... because then the S-400 and the latest aircraft can go there too.
          But China - yes. In 10-15 years, China can not only catch up, but also overtake the US fleet, not only in the number of pennants of the main classes of ships, but also in their quality. And China already has very good nuclear submarines and SLBMs ...
          Therefore, they gave the go-ahead to Japan to spend on military needs without a limit of 1% of GDP ... without any limit at all. And South Korea is also very actively building a fleet ... Australia ...
          America is building a coalition as always. This time against China.
          Our fleet is weak, but it is also remembered.
          And what is often said about us is just propaganda.
          1. yehat2
            yehat2 24 May 2021 16: 45
            0
            Quote: bayard
            And China already has very good nuclear submarines and SLBMs ...

            with submarines, China is still sad - they still have to catch up and catch up.
            China's strengths are 2 powerful base series of a frigate and destroyer, missiles, as well as new means of location and electronic warfare. Heavy and long-range aviation, submarines, sonar, mine engineering, personnel experience and engineering personnel, infrastructure, and a number of other special areas remain problematic.
            As for Japan, they have a clear focus on URO ships, strike submarines and the latest high-speed anti-ship missiles. China's anti-submarine defense is still very weak.
    3. Revolver
      Revolver 22 May 2021 19: 52
      +1
      Quote: knn54
      And why not allow frigates to appear on the Black Sea.

      Worse, under the zhovto-blakitnym ensign. If “Hazard Perry” starts to write off, quite a couple, or even more, can be transferred to the Skakuas. And these are already serious warships.
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. 22 May 2021 14: 03
    +1
    Some, not so long ago, on the pages of VO criticized the leadership of the Russian Navy for the massive construction of corvettes and frigates and advocated the construction of cruisers and destroyers. Meanwhile, as we can see, the United States is also building frigates, and the cruisers, on the contrary, are being written off. Thus, of the 22 Ticonderoga-class cruisers available in the United States, 10 are to be written off. In the near future, all the rest are to be written off. This is due to the unjustifiably high cost of their maintenance and operation.
    1. Freemason Mason
      Freemason Mason 22 May 2021 14: 09
      +10
      We must not forget that in addition to frigates and cruisers, the United States has about 70 destroyers, which are the mainstay of any modern ocean-going fleet. We have not had destroyers since the collapse of the USSR, and, apparently, they are not planning to.
    2. Artemion3
      Artemion3 22 May 2021 14: 10
      +5
      Yes, everything is needed: both frigates and destroyers. It's just incomprehensible, we are building such technologically advanced Boreas, but we don't pull 22350 because of the engines
    3. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 22 May 2021 14: 16
      +10
      Quote: bistrov.
      Meanwhile, as we can see, the United States is also building frigates, and cruisers, on the contrary, are being written off.

      You don't see well. The United States annually adopts 1-2 Arleigh Burke destroyers. This is at least 2/3 of the power of Ticonderog. We commissioned 2 cruisers Zamvolt, one more on the way. In the middle of 20, the program for the new cruiser "Next generation heavy surface combat ship" was launched.
      They write off outright old stuff, but new destroyer-cruiser-class ships are put into service every year and plan to continue to do so.
      1. Sunstorm
        Sunstorm 22 May 2021 15: 39
        -1
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        We commissioned 2 cruisers Zamvolt, one more on the way.

        Cruiser or destroyer? 2 introduced 3 are being completed ... and how many were originally planned?) You could hear that on the new Zumvolts ... they suddenly decided to change the weapons ...
    4. Stas1973
      Stas1973 22 May 2021 14: 25
      +7
      Oh, fig. 60 Berks of a similar configuration more than block Tiki.
      1. Yuri V.A
        Yuri V.A 22 May 2021 15: 08
        +2
        The chain mail is short ... Burke's regular launchers, and even Zamwolt's, are too small for new "super missiles", so Mk.41 will be left to large frigates and set new standards for destroyers, British Type 83 and Americans DDG (X).
        1. yehat2
          yehat2 24 May 2021 16: 57
          0
          Quote: Yuri V.A.
          DDG (X).

          the Americans are now unfolding the construction of a large series of frigates
          I will not say that they are new, but of high quality and relevant. Orders immediately go to several shipyards, including those abroad (Italy, negotiations are in progress. Japan, France, Sweden, South Korea), i.e. we are talking about dozens in a short time.
          The Germans are on the way because of the high prices for work and the workload of the industry.
          1. Yuri V.A
            Yuri V.A 25 May 2021 01: 27
            0
            Most likely, the Americans will return to the proportions in the number of ocean-going ships of the late 70s, leaving 40-50 Burks and adding 20-30 new frigates + the same number of large destroyers.
    5. Galleon
      Galleon 22 May 2021 14: 55
      +10
      They write off the Ticonderogs, which are 30-40 years old and have developed a resource.
  • Simple
    Simple 22 May 2021 14: 32
    +2
    By the way, subcontractors will be cleverly selected ("hello" stories from Freedom-Klasse).
  • Adimius38
    Adimius38 22 May 2021 14: 40
    +3
    As for Russia, we have a similar project 22350M, we need to speed up work on this project.
  • Rusnemez
    Rusnemez 22 May 2021 15: 09
    +1
    Better ask yourself why you decided to focus on the Frigates?
    Look carefully at the map.
    Take a close look at the armament of these ships and the range of destruction.

    I think the experience of the Russian Federation and China was analyzed and conclusions were drawn.
    Ships are cheaper, maintenance is cheaper, the crew is smaller, and the weapons are impressive.
    If there is target designation from an unmanned aerial vehicle or satellite, then any destroyer or avik cruiser, without entering the contact zone.
    1. Avior
      Avior 22 May 2021 15: 35
      +6
      This is not a strike ship, but primarily an ASW and air defense escort. Including against drones
  • demiurg
    demiurg 22 May 2021 15: 34
    +2
    A little observation.
    America bought the frigate project from the Italians.
    The topvar's forum discusses that the project is not bad, that it is expensive, and in general we are just envious.
    Russia bought the UDC project from the French.
    The same forum. We can do nothing, cuts, to which Serdyukov brought the country.
    Above all this, Timokhin, standing in an embrace, is demanding an aircraft carrier for the Baltic Sea right now, and Kaptsov, muttering that minesweepers need a belt of at least 300mm, and at least two GK 406mm towers.
    1. Artemion3
      Artemion3 22 May 2021 16: 10
      0
      Quote: demiurg

      Above all this, Timokhin, standing in an embrace, is demanding an aircraft carrier for the Baltic Sea right now, and Kaptsov, muttering that minesweepers need a belt of at least 300mm, and at least two GK 406mm towers.

      Ahah, neighing. But it's still funny when a maritime country orders ships from an almost land-based one. That would be if we ordered tanks from Australia.
      PS. 406 caliber needs to be stitched through, for sure)
    2. Avior
      Avior 22 May 2021 17: 15
      +6
      There was a competition of 5 projects, 4 of them from American companies, they considered that the Italian is better and did not bother that they did not merge with their own, but chose the best one according to their criteria.
      All the same, it will be built in the States.
    3. Santa Fe
      Santa Fe 23 May 2021 08: 45
      0
      Kaptsov, mumbling that minesweepers need a belt of at least 300mm, and at least two towers of the GK 406mm.

      Where and when was it approved

      Example, link

      Otherwise, you are a windbag
      1. demiurg
        demiurg 6 June 2021 05: 02
        0
        I will be brief.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 22 May 2021 15: 36
    -3
    It is strange that mattress shipbuilders gave such a "fat" piece to the Italians.
    1. hosekonceko
      hosekonceko 22 May 2021 16: 07
      +3
      Framm in the Italian version is not bad at all. Why would amers reinvent the wheel? They produce the best samples from all over the world and do not bother with those who have no analogues.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 22 May 2021 16: 54
        0
        I'm not talking about performance characteristics, but about money. Did the grandmothers give their mattress covers to the Italians? Or is it some kind of haze.
  • Oleg Olkha
    Oleg Olkha 22 May 2021 17: 49
    +2
    Can't you see that these frigates are of a purely American design? And she designed them in advance and in detail: - Marinette Marine Corp., Marinette, Wisconsin, and a contract for the second non-Fincantieri: - "According to information published by the Department of Defense on May 20, 2021, Marinette Marine Corp., Marinette, Wisconsin , is awarded a $ 553,891,420 fixed-price incentive (firm target) and firm-fixed-price modification to previously awarded contract N00024-20-C-2300 to exercise options for detail design and construction of one Constellation-class guided-missile frigate, future USS Congress (FFG 63), and integrated digital environment support "The multinational corporation Fincantieri perfectly used the tender requirements for a" mature design ", thanks to its three American" daughters ", but the frigate is both outside and inside, (to the last bolt) 100% American rather than Fremm.
  • CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 22 May 2021 22: 18
    +1
    FREMM frigate is very good, balance and teeth.
    1. Oleg Olkha
      Oleg Olkha 22 May 2021 22: 50
      +1
      Quite right, a great ship and this helped Fincantieri win the tender by offering a frigate "based on a well proven and proven design," only slightly larger and designed in the states to suit their requirements. Have a nice rest.
      1. CastroRuiz
        CastroRuiz 22 May 2021 22: 52
        +1
        And yet, yes. Modified / finalized FREMM according to their requirements. And you have a good rest.
  • Rusnemez
    Rusnemez 23 May 2021 00: 42
    0
    Quote: Avior
    This is not a strike ship, but primarily an ASW and air defense escort. Including against drones


    32 cells of universal launchers, 16 anti-ship missiles, is that not enough for carrying out attacks with external guidance-target designation?

    It is quite suitable for control and possible attacks on the countries of South America.

    Bring about 6 pieces to Greece and here's an operational space for them, here and Perdoganu salt and in the Black Sea for a demonstration, and in Syria, Iraq, Libya to support their proxies.
  • Synoid
    Synoid 23 May 2021 05: 43
    0
    It is not entirely clear why the fifth wheel is in the form of an inclined PU for anti-ship missiles when there is a universal one?
    There is an assumption that there will be no anti-ship missiles in the universal one, but only missiles and anti-ship missiles on land.
    1. demiurg
      demiurg 23 May 2021 06: 04
      0
      32 cells, of which 16 we will give for harpoons. Another 8 PLUR. As many as eight anti-aircraft missiles remain.
      The harpoon launch container is about five meters. You can do with inclined guides.
  • Potomac
    Potomac 23 May 2021 08: 41
    0
    Looks high quality and balanced, well, good luck to them.
  • hostel
    hostel 24 May 2021 07: 49
    0
    In short, they drove a nail into the coffin lid of the modular concept and other things.