Military Review

Go beyond the layout: advantages and problems of the Thunder UAV

73

Thunder model at the Army-2020 exhibition. Photo Bmpd.livejournal.com


Last year, the Kronshtadt group of companies showed for the first time a full-size mock-up of a promising unmanned aerial vehicle "Grom", and also disclosed basic data on this development. The new project is based on a number of interesting solutions that will provide high tactical and technical characteristics and broad combat capabilities. The high potential of the promising "Thunder" in the future will even be able to change the principles of combat aviation.

Exhibition and news


The premiere of the Thunder UAV project took place at the Army-2020 forum. In the open area, "Kronstadt" showed several mock-ups of unmanned vehicles, incl. previously unknown object of unusual appearance. Then representatives of the development organization revealed the calculated characteristics and expected capabilities of the "Thunder" being created.

The following news appeared at the end of February, in the wake of the visit of the leadership of the Ministry of Defense to the production site of "Kronstadt". Along with other products, the delegations showed a mock-up of the Molniya UAV. A little later, the media reported that such drones would be used as part of large groups controlled from the Thunder. The development company has confirmed this information.

Also this year, news about the combat capabilities of the new unmanned complex appeared several times. It was reported about the ability of "Thunder" to use existing aircraft weapons, as well as the development of new special samples.


Layout at the stage of installation. The product doesn't even have a chassis. Photo "Kronstadt"

However, the prospects of the project are still in question. The other day, Gazeta.ru, citing its sources, reported that the technical assignment for Thunder from the customer, represented by the Ministry of Defense, is not yet available. Accordingly, the developers cannot form the final look of the unmanned complex and begin development work.

Thus, at the moment, the general considerations and proposals of the development organization are known, and the detailed appearance of "Thunder" is probably not yet determined. Consequently, so far it is possible to assess only the appearance of the layout and the approximate characteristics of the future UAV, as well as to determine the prospects for the key proposals of the project.

Layouts and numbers


UAV "Thunder" is made in the form of a medium-sized aircraft, comparable to some modern fighters. The machine is built according to the normal aerodynamic configuration with a swept wing and V-shaped tail. The glider is distinguished by the characteristic contours necessary to reduce visibility. The air intake of the turbojet engine is placed on the upper surface of the fuselage to protect it from radiation from below. Coloration of the nose indicates the presence of an onboard radar station.

The Kronstadt company reported that the take-off weight of the drone will reach 7 tons. The payload is approx. 500 kg. Flight performance has not yet been disclosed. The device is called "high-speed", but even the range of maximum speeds, sub- or supersonic, remains unclear.


Possible weapons of the "Thunder" and other UAVs. Photo "Kronstadt"

Onboard equipment "Groma" will have to provide an autonomous flight with the performance of these tasks or work on commands from the control point. It is planned to ensure compatibility with the Su-35S and Su-57 fighters, which will be able to control several UAVs.

In "Kronstadt" they said that the drone will receive several main tasks. Among other things, he will be responsible for combating enemy air defenses. In this case, the inconspicuous "Thunder" will have to break through the air defense and hit its targets; while manned aircraft will remain outside the danger zone.

Combat missions will be solved both independently and together with other UAVs. "Thunder" is considered as the leader of the small-sized loitering ammunition "Lightning". Such a drone is similar to the "Thunder" and is built according to a similar scheme, but differs significantly in size and weight.

"Thunder" will be able to carry and control several light "Lightning" or control devices launched from other carriers. The unmanned leader will have to receive data from all sources and issue commands to small UAVs. They will then be able to execute a coordinated strike against designated targets.

The ability of Thunder has been reported to employ a wide range of mainstream APS. It will be able to carry adjustable bombs and guided air-to-ground missiles, with which it will carry out strikes against air defense objects and other targets. This year it became known about the development of a new family of ammunition for domestic reconnaissance and strike UAVs. Perhaps these items will be included in the "Thunder" ammunition.


A model of the Molniya product is shown to the leadership of the military department, February 2021. Photo by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

Objective difficulties


Earlier, the company "Kronstadt" reported that the Ministry of Defense is showing interest in a new concept of an unmanned complex, on the basis of which the "Thunder" is built. Also, the military department understands the need for the construction of such equipment and its implementation in the troops. However, understanding and desire are not enough to create a new combat-ready complex. And in this respect, "Thunder" and "Lightning" are still facing some difficulties.

First of all, there is limited customer interest on the way of projects to success. The technical assignment for new UAVs is still missing, which does not allow the design to begin - and postpones the moment of creating an experimental technique or launching mass production. It is not known how soon the Ministry of Defense will determine its needs and order the development.

The creation of a glider, most likely, will not face any difficulties. Our aviation industry in general and Kronstadt in particular has the necessary technologies and competencies. At the same time, difficulties are to be expected in the engine line. At the moment we do not have a modern compact turbojet engine suitable for installation on the Thunder. Similar problems can arise with Lightning. However, in recent years, it has been possible to solve the main issues of the production of piston engines for UAVs, and in the future, similar processes in the field of turbojet engines may take place.

The key task of the new project will be the creation of hardware and software with all the proposed functions. In this respect, "Thunder" will seriously differ from the previous developments of "Kronstadt" and other organizations, which leads to certain difficulties. It should be recalled that in our country there is already a UAV project with similar capabilities. The S-70 "Okhotnik" product from the Sukhoi Design Bureau has already reached flight tests, incl. with work on commands from the board of the Su-57 fighter.


The same layout, view from a different angle. Frame from the reportage of the "First Channel"

The concept of a complex with a leader drone and slave vehicles is quite complex. The development of such a project can be more difficult and time-consuming than the design of "single" reconnaissance and strike complexes. A successful solution to this problem will give several positive results at once. First of all, this will allow updating the VKS equipment park and giving them new opportunities. In addition, fundamentally new technologies will be created and mastered, which will become the basis for the further development of combat aviation, manned and unmanned.

The future is in question


Unmanned aerial vehicles "Thunder" and "Lightning" so far exist only at the level of concepts and in the form of two full-size models. Nevertheless, they are also of great interest to a potential customer and operator. The successful implementation of such ideas will significantly change the combat capabilities of the Aerospace Forces and reduce the main risks.

However, as it is now known, promising projects of the Kronstadt company have not yet entered the development stage due to the lack of terms of reference and a real order. So far, cooperation between the Ministry of Defense and the Kronstadt group is limited to the Orion, Sirius, etc. projects. It is not known how soon it will be expanded at the expense of "Lightning" and "Thunder".

However, the real situation may be more optimistic. It cannot be ruled out that theoretical work is already underway in the relevant organizations of the military department to determine the optimal appearance of new UAVs and search for their place in the aerospace forces. Its result will be a technical task and an order for the development of new technology - and thanks to this, not mock-ups will appear on one of the future forums, but full-fledged experienced drones of new models.
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  1. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 18: 13
    +3
    Contracts for the creation of pre-production prototypes of the Loyal Wingman between the US Air Force and Boeing, General Atomicss, Kratos Unmanned and Northrop Grumman were signed in July 2020, due in 2023.

    In addition to these 4 companies, this contract is claimed by:

    • AeroVironment Inc., Simi Valley, California
    • Autodyne LLC, Boston, Massachusetts
    • BAE System Controls Inc., Arlington, Virginia
    • Blue Force Technologies Inc., Morrisville, North Carolina
    • Fregata System Inc., St. Louis, Missouri
    • Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, Texas
    • NextGen Aeronautics Inc., Torrance, California
    • Sierra Technical Services, Tehachapi, California
    • Wichita State University, Wichita, Kansas

    In addition to the United States, the development is carried out by the UK, France, Turkey, Australia, India, China, etc.
    At the same time, UTAP-22 and XQ-58 have been actively tested for several years and various technologies are being tested on them, Loyal Wingman from Boeing Australia has come to flight tests. The Gremlins project is also interesting, Lightning is its analogue.




    1. lucul
      lucul 24 May 2021 18: 40
      -2
      Contracts for the creation of pre-production prototypes of the Loyal Wingman between the US Air Force and Boeing, General Atomicss, Kratos Unmanned and Northrop Grumman were signed in July 2020, due in 2023.

      And what is the advantage over short- and medium-range missiles? ))))
    2. Ka-52
      Ka-52 25 May 2021 04: 39
      +2
      Loyal Wingman pre-production contracts between the USAF

      it feels like you are being paid for the PR of American arms manufacturers in Russian networks. Because you already mold information about them to the place and out of place. The topic of this article is a Russian UAV. What the hell is your tender sighs about Boeing and Grumman? I understand when the article makes a comparison between certain types of weapons produced in different countries. But then there is no word about the place of Thunder in the world arms market.
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 25 May 2021 09: 39
        +2
        Quote: Ka-52
        Loyal Wingman pre-production contracts between the USAF

        it feels like you are being paid for the PR of American arms manufacturers in Russian networks. Because you already mold information about them to the place and out of place. The topic of this article is a Russian UAV. What the hell is your tender sighs about Boeing and Grumman? I understand when the article makes a comparison between certain types of weapons produced in different countries. But then there is no word about the place of Thunder in the world arms market.


        Thunder is a purely "plywood" model.
        Proportional tracing paper from the enemy apparatus.
        The model was made for an exhibition, but no one understands why and why.
        MO does not understand, even the manufacturer does not understand.
        This is called "dust in the eyes".

        Since Thunder is just a copy of the Valkyrie.
        The already flying Valkyrie.
        Valkyries, whose concept of use and application was calculated long before the appearance of the layout and the first flight.
        All questions of interaction, maintenance, operation.
        Everything was developed in advance - technical specifications for design were issued and tests are now underway.

        The whole difference is in the approach.
        "They" - they calculated everything in advance, foreseen and began to produce and test ... and then they will put into service the winner of the competition.
        "We" - made a similar layout, brought it to the exhibition, received photos and news from journalists and FSE!
        And now no one knows what to do with it ... For neither the manufacturer nor the MO knows what tasks, what kind of management, what kind of interaction this Thunder has. For there is not even an understanding of anyone, neither the Moscow Region, nor the "Kronstadt" - what kind of unknown animal do they see ...

        That's the whole difference between them and us.

        And this is not at all about Western propaganda and PR.
        It's about differences and attitudes towards design and production.
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 25 May 2021 10: 28
          0
          SovAr238A and OgnennyiKotik are the accounts of the same user? Why is SovAr238A answering me for the second time when the question is asked to the user of OgnennyiKotik? Is the TW administration turning a blind eye to multi-account again?
          Thunder is a purely "plywood" model.

          I'm not asking what "Thunder" is made of. You do not know this and you cannot know. The question is the same: why push information (and even the first comment) about American attempts to create such a system? I would understand if it was in the context of either an article or a discussion in the comments. There is neither one nor the other.
          "They are"
          "We"

          Well, your American patriotism has long been known. lol
          1. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 25 May 2021 11: 16
            +1
            I am not a fire cat.
            Just unlike you, I understand his logic.
            And I think I understand the situation with the images of weapons
            What is where it comes from, and how it is all interconnected.
            And I can answer anyone, any question asked by someone.
            After all, this is a general forum, not a private conversation.
            Do you know the rules of general forums?
            Do you want to chat with someone tete-a-tete?
            Email him right away ...
            Without going into publicity ...

            You, by your posts, give information about what exactly you do not have an understanding ...
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 25 May 2021 12: 15
                +1
                Quote: Ka-52
                After all, this is a general forum, not a private conversation.
                Do you know the rules of general forums?
                Do you want to chat with someone tete-a-tete?

                what does it have to do with tete-a-tete? What are you talking about nonsense? What kind of personal conversation? This is called offtopic in the language of forums. When the commentator writes not about the topic of the article. Why are you pretending to be a crustacean here?


                Again, I "disagree" with you.
                It’s you who are carrying nonsense, because you don’t want to see the difference between two similar projects - ours and the enemy’s.
                We are here, at this forum, mainly those who are interested in current trends in the development of military equipment.
                What is Thunder?
                How does the manufacturer position the Thunder UAV?
                The Thunder drone is used as a "slave" in the forward echelon of mixed manned-unmanned strike aviation groups. The drone will be used to support Su-35 and Su-57 fighters.
                Acting in the same connection with the aircraft, the drone will be able to ensure their safety, destroying enemy air defenses, and also perform a number of other combat missions.


                We read a similar story about the same enemy projects that have been developing their loyal followers for 5-6 years. We see photos / videos of flight tests in the news. We read articles describing the devices, proposed application methods, etc.

                Accordingly, we have every right to compare not only photos by the beauty of the slogans written in the news. But also look at the current state of affairs in the reality of production, application, etc.

                What can be "offtopic" - if there is an article about "our slave" and someone compares it with exactly the same "someone else's water" ???
                Here is your first post - this is exactly the "complete offtopic" ...

                And this article is just about what Ya wrote earlier.
                The fact that Kronstadt stupidly fashioned a model of sticks and scotch tape, very similar to the Valkyrie.
                That he brought him to the exhibition.
                But ...
                Even he cannot explain to the customer in the form of an MO the answer to a reasonably asked question: "What is he going to do with all this?"
                How will this UAV be used? how will it be connected to airplanes? How will he fly on his own? What kind of automated flight system will it have in the mode not only of the guided arsenal, but also in the mode of independent flight and search for targets?
                what will be the automatic take-off and landing system?
                And many other questions, without clear and intelligible answers to which - you will never sell such a pink elephant in MO ...

                And this is the difference in the design thought of new directions for the Russian troops in the form of robotic systems.
                We don't have an understanding of "how it works" ...
                We do not have 20 years of experience in holding the annual DARPA championships for fully automated vehicles that must overcome 10-20 kilometers of off-road terrain, absolutely without human intervention ...
                And these championships are held only among universities and small companies.
                And the person who does this - as a student - already understands what an algorithm for independent decision-making is.

                Which no one has ever done with us.
                That’s the trouble.

                And we and they show in the photo - like the same thing.
                And in fact, with a close comparison, they probably already understand everything, what is the difference.
                Not enough uraniums and others?
                Under the guise of robots, we just slipped remote-controlled tankettes ...
                They're just remote controlled.
                They cannot do just anything on their own.
                Even if the connection is lost, they just stupidly stand up ...
                devices costing under a million dollars.
                Although they could return to base - as do 20 dollar Chinese drones ...
              2. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 25 May 2021 12: 19
                -1
                Why write about a layout, and a poorly copied one, whose product characteristics are already lower than the original? These products have 0 novelty, blind repetition without a single thought. The degradation of the military-industrial complex and generals is total, Iran has more thoughts and ideas.
                If you want to read odes to those who have no analogues in the world of weapons, you better go to the sites of the star and go through the air. Yes, and there is a good section "History".
                I am interested in new technologies and ideas, new concepts and weapons. Russia is only degrading, trying to at least keep 15-20 years behind the West and China. So far, the gap is only widening. "Thank you" to the current government for this.
                1. Ka-52
                  Ka-52 25 May 2021 12: 51
                  -2
                  If you want to read odes to those who have no analogues in the world of weapons, you better go to the sites of the star and go through the air.

                  firstly, where and what should I read, I'll figure it out without snotty
                  and secondly, well, somehow I did not notice in the title of this portal and its concept of the definition: "we write only about America and its best weapons."
                  I am interested in new technologies and ideas, new concepts and weapons.

                  there is a difference between people who are simply interested and preconceived idolaters of the American military industry.
                  Russia is only degrading, trying to at least keep 15-20 years behind the West and China.

                  ahh, so there it is ... that is, this is an objective reason to turn this portal for the review of any world weapons into a portal broadcasting according to the principle "everything American is good, everything Russian is g ... but"?
                  1. OgnennyiKotik
                    OgnennyiKotik 25 May 2021 13: 12
                    +2
                    I will leave you in your universe, where you communicate with some invented person. The opinion and words of this man invented by you are very different from mine. hi
                    1. Vladimir Rostovsky
                      Vladimir Rostovsky 25 May 2021 13: 48
                      0
                      What the fuck is your tender sighs about Boeing and Grumman?
                      Here everyone can write about what he wants and answer to whom he wants, and you naturally understand perfectly well, why then these virtual claims? You can't influence anything smile
                      It feels like you are being paid for the PR of American arms manufacturers in Russian networks
                      And of course it is ridiculous to read such definitions as "the biased idolater of the United States", which you think is Kitty, someone may consider you a biased and mossy hurray-patriot who writes uninformative and uninteresting posts, but after all, our lag behind developed countries is nowhere to be found will disappear and the Thunder model will not cease to be a tracing paper from the Valkyrie, which has been flying for a long time - so that the post of Kitty is actually in the subject here, because it shows where the legs of the Russian project grow from and at what stage the projects of other countries are.
                      Broadcasting according to the principle "everything American is good, everything Russian is g ... but"?
                      This is not the first time I see how patriots here go to extremes from expressing thoughts that we are lagging behind in some area.
                      1. Intruder
                        Intruder 26 May 2021 00: 52
                        0
                        It feels like you are being paid for the PR of American arms manufacturers in Russian networks
                        and there will be proofs, or only on sensations, this opus, with respect ... even so, surprisingly !? hi
                      2. Ka-52
                        Ka-52 26 May 2021 07: 03
                        -2
                        considers you a biased and mossy cheerleader who writes uninformative and uninteresting posts

                        biased can only be considered fools who get all the arguments out of the nose. A hurray-patriot can be considered only by such proponents of the sofa as you, so I never said that Russian weapons are the best in the world. Because in your head there is no understanding of a simple objective reality: weapons do not have to be the best in the world. The weapon must give the opportunity to complete the task received. This is what it is designed for. Bawlers like you constantly forget that the best tank in WW2 was not the Pz.Kpfw. VI Tiger. Although it had excellent individual characteristics. As well as the PzKpfw V Panther.
                        but after all, our lag behind the developed countries will not go away from this, and the Thunder model will not cease to be a tracing paper from the Valkyrie, which has been flying for a long time

                        an argument only for stupid internet ehperd who like to do pussy metrics. And gurgle on the topic: but the Americans invented this earlier! They are great, and our military-industrial complex is sheep. Well, those who are in the subject themselves are accustomed to your existence and usually do not pay attention.
                      3. My doctor
                        My doctor 25 July 2021 21: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Ka-52
                        The weapon must give the opportunity to complete the task received.

                        Or are the tasks set according to the possibilities?
  • mvg
    mvg 24 May 2021 18: 25
    +1
    Well, who else could write a whole novel about this peerless man? How can you read this?
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 18: 32
      +3
      The project is just promising. But the money will be given for it when Western Loyal Wingman is already in the series.
      1. NIKN
        NIKN 24 May 2021 19: 29
        +6
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        But they will give money for it

        How can you develop something without TTZ and then shove it into something? Can it come in handy anyway? I think in this way it is possible to advance the hyperspace engine and that today is not immediately ..., because no one was going to use it. request
        1. dauria
          dauria 24 May 2021 20: 49
          +7
          Can it come in handy anyway?

          You can see what the adversaries are doing .. we are not treading the road, but we are lagging behind. An initiative private trader could make a reserve at his own peril and risk ... But this is not about Russia, unfortunately. We still compete with "high-ranking friends", not products.
      2. mvg
        mvg 24 May 2021 21: 42
        0
        just promising

        With a takeoff weight of 7 tonnes, useful 0,5 tonnes, is this normal? but I wrote not about this, but about how many letters in the article ... usually repeated ..
  • Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 24 May 2021 18: 28
    +6
    Unmanned aerial vehicles "Thunder" and "Lightning" so far exist only at the level of concepts and in the form of two full-size models.

    And in Russia, a situation has long been created when promising equipment and weapons are often presented in models, drawings, projects and concepts. Apparently, they lost something in the pursuit of catching up and overtaking America Portugal. Roofing felts the pace of development, roofing felts conscience ... request
    1. Cat Kuzya
      Cat Kuzya 24 May 2021 19: 45
      0
      Well, plans and layouts are "nashfs", and they are served under a hurray sauce: "in what we have!". "Yes," yeah ... winked
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 24 May 2021 18: 37
    -2
    one is more promising than the other, but to show what is real in the troops today is weak? what happens if tomorrow is a hike?
  • mark1
    mark1 24 May 2021 18: 44
    -4
    Somewhat earlier, in 2018, flight tests of the Yak-133 were carried out (the topic is "Breakthrough") and after that everything was dull - in the sense that there were no messages. I think that perhaps this theme is the main one, and "Thunder" is a parallel distracting one.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 18: 52
      +2
      Not carried out. Everything is at the level of pictures and layouts. What's the point of this? When there is no normal order and vision of the future from the generals of the Aerospace Forces.


      1. mark1
        mark1 24 May 2021 19: 01
        -4
        Yes, they have been, have been carried out since 2016, the first publication (in Izvestia), in 2019 in winter the last (already at the blogger's) and after no gu-gu. Dig it yourself, google it ...
        1. mark1
          mark1 24 May 2021 19: 51
          -6
          Mister (sirs) minusEr (s) there is a link to such a resource as VO from 7.09.2016/XNUMX/XNUMX. Or is the process important in your business?
      2. lucul
        lucul 24 May 2021 19: 11
        -5
        Everything is at the level of pictures and layouts. What's the point of this?

        These pictures are utterly more perfect aerodynamically and technologically Bayraktar and other fakes)))
        Doesn't it suggest any thoughts? ))))
        1. vadim dok
          vadim dok 25 May 2021 15: 55
          +2
          Turkish Bayraktars: 1. fly, 2 fight well, 3 sell well, and, most importantly, constantly develop! And pictures and layouts ..... Everyone knows that from a picture and a layout, to an EXPERIMENTAL sample, there is a "huge distance"!
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 24 May 2021 19: 17
    +3
    Considering the modest size of our military budget (relative to potential opponents) and difficult times for our economy, the Ministry of Defense is probably wondering whether they need a second large strike stealth UAV, which in general is a pronounced attacking weapon (and also very expensive, taking into account the design). Most likely, large contracts for the same "Hunter" are not foreseen, because in general we have a problem with large contracts for some kind of new ground or air equipment - which means that solving questions with "Thunder" means making an even more microscopic "Hunting" series - in general, I am leading to the fact that the Ministry of Defense can show interest in this product only from the point of view of the export-currency potential.
    1. lucul
      lucul 24 May 2021 19: 25
      -4
      The Ministry of Defense is probably wondering whether they need a second large strike stealth UAV

      Of course we do - we need this kind of UAV AWACS

      Especially if he can take off from Kuznetsov)))
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 00
        +6
        Quote: lucul
        Of course we do - we need this kind of UAV AWACS
        Our AWACS in the IL-76 barely got in, they wanted to shove into Ruslan. Less can probably be done by sacrificing stats, but that is fraught with the other side having Hawkeye.
        1. lucul
          lucul 24 May 2021 20: 01
          -7
          Our AWACS in the IL-76 with difficulty climbed, they wanted to shove into Ruslan

          When was that? )))))
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 03
            +6
            Quote: lucul
            When was that? )))))
            When the A-100 was made
            1. lucul
              lucul 24 May 2021 20: 10
              -7
              When the A-100 was made

              IL-76 is simply the most modern aircraft produced in Russia, there are simply no others. And so, AFAR can easily fit under the nose cone of the MiG-31)))
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 17
                +7
                Quote: lucul
                And so, AFAR can easily fit under the nose cone of the MiG-31)))
                The MiG-31 does not have AFAR, but that is not the point. The radar of a conventional aircraft and AWACS are very different in tasks and capabilities, very much. The AWACS radar will not fit into the MiG-31. But there is still a problem, from the AWACS you need not radiation, but information. It houses the processing equipment and its operators. There will be no operators on the AWACS drone, which means that it either itself must process the information (not very realistic yet), or have a neat communication line to drive both the picture for control and the signal from the radar to the ground. And enough energy to fly and power all this music at the same time. We will not succeed in a small AWACS yet.
      2. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 24 May 2021 20: 05
        +5
        This is no longer an attack UAV) And I have doubts that the development of a powerful radar in such dimensions will be an easy and budgetary task. Although the concept is quite interesting.
        1. lucul
          lucul 24 May 2021 20: 07
          -8
          This is no longer an attack UAV)

          Explain to me in what an attack UAV has an advantage over a cheap rocket? )))
          1. bk0010
            bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 20
            +5
            Quote: lucul
            Explain to me in what an attack UAV has an advantage over a cheap rocket? )))
            An attack UAV can search for a target and use cheap weapons (laser-guided gliding bomb, for example, UAV guidance). The missile is expensive and is used only for the specified target (the target itself is not looking for).
            1. lucul
              lucul 24 May 2021 20: 33
              -2
              An attack UAV can search for a target and use cheap weapons (laser-guided gliding bomb, for example, UAV guidance). The missile is expensive and is used only for the specified target (the target itself is not looking for).

              In order for the bomb to plan for a sufficient range, the delivery vehicle needs to be well dispersed, and secondly, gliding bombs are not cheap at all.
              But the rocket can also use external target designation and remain cheap, in contrast to the UAV.
              1. bk0010
                bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 41
                +6
                Quote: lucul
                In order for the bomb to plan for a sufficient range, the delivery vehicle must be well dispersed.
                There, the range needs 10 kilometers - at the distance of laser target designation.
                Quote: lucul
                secondly, gliding bombs are not cheap at all
                Azerbaijanis did not complain about their high cost.
                Quote: lucul
                But the rocket can use external target designation and remain cheap.
                A cheap rocket with an external control unit? This is what, I have never heard of this? The UAV has a chance to survive after the strike, the rocket (if it took off) - no.
                1. lucul
                  lucul 24 May 2021 20: 45
                  -6
                  There, the range needs 10 kilometers - at the distance of laser target designation.

                  At this range, and the MLRS will shoot.
                  Azerbaijanis did not complain about their high cost.

                  Did they use them en masse? There, mainly MLRS worked for target designation from UAVs.
                  1. bk0010
                    bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 48
                    +5
                    Quote: lucul
                    At this range, and the MLRS will shoot.
                    Yes. The question is where to shoot.
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 24 May 2021 20: 52
                      -6
                      Yes. The question is where to shoot.

                      Up to 200km range - MLRS with a guided missile are especially good.
                      1. SovAr238A
                        SovAr238A 25 May 2021 09: 45
                        +2
                        Quote: lucul
                        Yes. The question is where to shoot.

                        Up to 200km range - MLRS with a guided missile are especially good.


                        Who will reconnoiter targets at a distance of 200 km?
                      2. Intruder
                        Intruder 26 May 2021 01: 01
                        0
                        MLRS with a guided missile are especially good.
                        If the whole package, for a stationary target !? And if, pointwise and for a long time it is necessary to patrol ..., then it is easier to bring the drone from the warhead, and put it on additional reconnaissance ... ???
          2. Knell wardenheart
            Knell wardenheart 24 May 2021 21: 20
            +2
            Okolobarmaleev with the UAV is more budgetary to restrain.
            At the same time, a THEORETICALLY advanced and inconspicuous UAV allows more delicate penetration into air defense / missile defense zones and perform more complex tasks there than a rocket - while, again, theoretically, it can also return.
            Why am I speaking theoretically - because at the moment there is no understanding of the real effectiveness and economic advantage of this entire arsenal against well-trained parties with modern weapons / air defense systems and methods of their manufacture. In a number of conflicts and in a number of localities (As far as I understand), the UAV shows itself more economically than a rocket, in some kind of global showdown it may become that the advantages of the UAV will not be so obvious.
            Given the recoverability (potential) of the UAV, there is an opportunity and economic sense to weight it better than a rocket - and it will perform some kind of auxiliary or broader tasks.
            1. lucul
              lucul 24 May 2021 21: 25
              -4
              Okolobarmaleev with the UAV comes out more budgetary to restrain

              What is more budgetary? A rocket is a piece of iron pipe with a cheap engine - these are on inexpensive MLRS)))
              Do not compare in value with a UAV.
              1. Knell wardenheart
                Knell wardenheart 24 May 2021 21: 39
                +3
                Barmaley, after all, are not fools either. They have become accustomed to burying their objects or spreading them out. Accordingly, for each conventional "barn" you will have to launch a conventional rocket, or a UAV arrives here and sows the same area with bombs, which are much cheaper - but at the same time with good accuracy. And where it is necessary to hit with a missile - smaller and less expensive than any large and long-range one.
                In this case, the UAV is needed so that the barmaley do not cut off the heads of the downed pilots on the camera, in the event that they get some nishtyach from the conditional Gebrev.
                And by the way, I would not call modern missiles (not Hamas ones ;-) a cheap piece of iron - accuracy is a rather gluttonous thing, especially if the missile has to hit a certain zone or a maneuvering target (* thought about that racket with blades that Suleimani killed * )
                So, in general, war is the same economy - powerful guns and the ability to make them may not be solved for purely economic reasons (remember the same Germany with its Tigers / Ferdinands) where the enemy finds a combination of deshmani / efficiency / mass character / sufficient quality.
                Actually, this direction has become more active, as for me.
              2. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 25 May 2021 12: 20
                +4
                Quote: lucul
                Okolobarmaleev with the UAV comes out more budgetary to restrain

                What is more budgetary? A rocket is a piece of iron pipe with a cheap engine - these are on inexpensive MLRS)))
                Do not compare in value with a UAV.


                Why are the Syrian barmaley people mainly mowed down by our aviation?
                But not dozens of MLRS systems?
    2. Prjanik
      Prjanik 25 May 2021 00: 40
      +4
      This is not at all analogous to the Hunter, as I understand it. That heavy shock and expensive stealth UAV for breaking through air defense. And Thunder is an analogue of the amerskoy Valkyrie, in theory, a relatively cheap massive slave UAV to the aircraft, which is not a pity to open the positions of enemy air defense and aviation, to distract yourself, electronic warfare, etc. in this spirit. I think now they are working on this concept, requirements, and, in principle, perspective and necessity
  • bk0010
    bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 03
    +5
    People, explain why this is necessary?
    "Thunder" will be able to carry and control several light "Lightning" or control devices launched from other carriers.

    Why launch UAVs from UAVs from which to launch a rocket? Why not launch the rockets right away?
    Why wasn't the function of intercepting other drones (and the gun, respectively) attached to such a healthy drone?
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 20: 26
      +2
      Quote: bk0010
      to release UAVs from which to launch a rocket?

      Such tasks are not set. The drone being produced is planned to be a kamikaze, RTR, electronic warfare, false target, etc.
      Quote: bk0010
      the function of intercepting other drones (and the gun, respectively)

      Do not hit, you need a UAV weight of 3-5 tons. Rockets are much more efficient.



      1. bk0010
        bk0010 24 May 2021 20: 43
        +2
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        The drone being produced is planned to be a kamikaze, RTR, electronic warfare, false target, etc.
        Then it's understandable, thanks. Although I can hardly imagine a disposable electronic warfare system on a small drone.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 20: 50
          +2
          For RER (Electronic Intelligence) or REZ (Electronic Protection) no problem at all. EW is not necessarily REB (Electronic Suppression). Yes, and suppressing a certain sector of energy is also enough, it is not necessary to suppress everything and everything. At the means of destruction, the EPR is extremely small, quite insignificant interference so that the air defense radars could not determine them.
          1. Gori
            Gori 27 May 2021 13: 54
            +1
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            ... yes and suppress a specific sector of energy that's enough, it's not necessary to jam everything and everything ...

            Suppress a specific sector of energy? THEORETIC is a sofa.
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 27 May 2021 14: 35
              -1
              About Gori / Grigory 1 / Tonev / Dred / PPSh / Ali / SETSET / I. Vasya, hello, friend! How are you? smile
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 24 May 2021 20: 42
    +3
    the technical assignment for "Thunder" from the customer represented by the Ministry of Defense is not yet available. Accordingly, the developers cannot form the final look of the unmanned complex and begin development work.

    And what then are we talking about? Blank note.
  • Pamir
    Pamir 24 May 2021 21: 02
    +1
    Wouldn't it be worth trying to offer China to invest in joint development in the creation of a UAV? Well, a contract for 15-20 years? The development and implementation of the entire range of weapons in the Armed Forces is too heavy burden. Maybe it would be worth trying? All the same, there is nothing beyond strategic in this matter Yes, and the history of the implementation of developments from other states in practice is very wide, especially if in a consortium. Well, if the Chinese refuse, then draw conclusions.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 21: 09
      +1
      Quote: Pamir
      Wouldn't it be worth trying to offer China to invest in joint development in creating a UAV?

      Why should they? They have a lot of money, technologically they are far ahead of us. They build their own engines, if they just need to buy them. The main thing is that they have hundreds of models of their own UAVs. We are simply unnecessary to them, we have nothing to offer.

      1. Pamir
        Pamir 24 May 2021 21: 18
        0
        Well, China is not so strong in the production of any types of weapons as it might seem from the first wave. In many ways it is still behind. And nobody will shoot anyone from the proposal. So you need to offer, and not refuse everything in absentia.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 24 May 2021 21: 22
          +3
          So they refused and long ago. In principle, we have no joint projects other than Infrastructure and energy supplies. A purely commercial buy-sell relationship.
          In relation to Russia, they lag behind only in strategic nuclear forces and engine building.
          1. Pamir
            Pamir 24 May 2021 21: 29
            0
            Well, if they abandoned joint programs for the production of tactically important programs for the Russian Federation for a long time, then there are no questions. There should be conclusions. As long as there are no other candidates. Although it is possible to offer pure neutrals like the Finns as an option?
          2. Mooh
            Mooh 25 May 2021 15: 23
            +3
            In relation to Russia, they lag behind only in strategic nuclear forces and engine building

            They think so. We have a slightly different opinion on this matter. Unambiguously superior in electronics and mass shipbuilding. Everything else is questionable.
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 26 May 2021 01: 06
      0
      in the creation of a UAV to offer China to invest in joint development? Well, a contract for 15-20 years?
      so that "these" (brothers forever .. lol ), they swept everything from the interesting in joint development and then launched it at home and share with them for 15-20 years .., maybe the idea is so-so !? stop
  • bars1
    bars1 25 May 2021 11: 15
    -1
    As in Ukraine. Yet, no matter what the Ukrainians say, we are brothers with them, both in blood and mentally ...
  • Boris63
    Boris63 25 May 2021 11: 27
    +2
    Here's what and how about this Thunder, but KB Kronstadt has been working for more than six months almost seven days a week.
    1. SovAr238A
      SovAr238A 25 May 2021 14: 28
      +2
      Quote: Boris63
      Here's what and how about this Thunder, but KB Kronstadt has been working for more than six months almost seven days a week.


      In Samara, the factories Motorostroitel, Kuznetsov, Progress also almost always "work" seven days a week ...
      Many employees, up to 25% go to "work" on weekends.
      Getting double pay and extra days off.
      Why did I put the word "work" in quotation marks?

      Yes, because all the "work" on the weekend is built in such a way that nothing is actually done.
      Electroplating workers come out - transporters, storekeepers, controllers - no!
      Accordingly, for the actual work of electroplating (without quotes) - no!
      They will "depart" hours - they will add money and vacation pay - and go home with a clear conscience.

      And then we wonder why they "work" a lot, seven days a week!
      But there is no sense.
  • Conjurer
    Conjurer 25 May 2021 12: 11
    +1
    It cannot be ruled out that theoretical work is already underway in the relevant organizations of the military department to determine the optimal appearance of new UAVs and to find their place in the aerospace forces.

    Of course, one cannot exclude it. But, I think, for the Ministry of Defense this task is now secondary - more likely for prestige and solving local problems like fighting the Basmachi (they work too sluggishly in this area, they are much more active in the tasks of digitalizing troop control and modernizing equipment). It seems that they have great doubts about the applicability of UAVs in their modern form in a war with a real enemy. If we compare a modern strike UAV with a manned strike aircraft in terms of reconnaissance and strike capabilities, versatility of use, and protection from enemy influences, what do we get? Will a hundred Po-2 replace the Pe-2 squadron? That is, if the drone completely replaced the manned aircraft, it would be easier to decide, there would only be a question of price, not even in terms of money, but in terms of production costs in wartime (like the Tigers, the Germans have a good tank, but production laborious, you can't do much), and so .... For the current drone, it is necessary to develop a fundamentally new concept of warfare (it is not the same on the battlefield), and the result of such a large-scale reformatting raises doubts. Rather, it is necessary to develop an unmanned replacement for a manned aircraft, here, as I understand it, there is a concept for the future.
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 26 May 2021 01: 10
      -1
      For the current drone, it is necessary to develop a fundamentally new concept of warfare (it is not the same on the battlefield), and the result of such a large-scale reformatting raises doubts.
      Duc, little time has passed until everything is hewn and tested, in real combat over rocky deserts !?
      like the Tigers among the Germans - a good tank, after all, but the production is laborious, you can't do much
      and how many years have passed from the first tanks to the Tiger ??? In 20 years and later, we will see other drones and concepts for their use, or we will not see them at all ... yes
  • Maks1995
    Maks1995 25 May 2021 21: 39
    +4
    Everything is correct in the Comments.
    Peremozhnaya crap, alas. There are photos, but they are not about anything, even according to the article,
    Because "The terms of reference for new UAVs are not yet available, which does not allow the design to begin."

    Those. there is a plywood layout, without any prerequisites, and a name.
    No interest, no calculations, purely that it was - our answer to the Omers ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 26 May 2021 19: 37
      0
      Our answer is Hunter and Orion with Altius.
  • AC130 Ganship
    AC130 Ganship 16 July 2021 02: 14
    -1
    How and how well the Hunter handles the Su57 is a military secret. Given that Su has one pilot, I don't think he has much time to follow the UAV. As far as I know, the Americans are not involved in this concept and their UAVs are controlled exclusively from the ground. Well, even a pioneer schoolchild knows that in electronics they have overtaken Russia by 20-30 years. "Cons" for the comment, this gap will hardly be reduced tomorrow
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 22 August 2021 09: 23
    0
    so far there is limited customer interest on the way of projects to success.
    You don't have to read further. The army does not know why the hell does it need all this. Then there are two ways. The first one - they stuck the mock-ups and forgot. Second. The owner of a "promising enterprise" will blow money from the government. On the one hand, the construction of these pieces is not difficult at all. All solutions were worked out a long time ago, bought ready-made blocks in China, smeared fiberglass on the mold, and received a body. You can account for "military equipment". On the other hand, who needs it and why?