Military Review

Will "pigeons" improve "Gauges"?

65
TASS (The Northern PKB announced its readiness to present a variant of the patrol ship of project 22160), a short statement was published by the General Director of the Northern Design Bureau (SPKB) Andrei Dyachkov, which was quite surprised by its essence.


"If the customer has a need for an additional number of ships of the project 22160 and additional tasks will be defined for them, then, accordingly, the project will be restyled, he will receive new opportunities."


Photo: Russian Ministry of Defense

Several points are unclear and surprising here. Who is this "customer"? And why would he suddenly need "additional ships" of one of the most unsuccessful for history Russian shipbuilding projects? And what does "restyling" mean by the Northern PKB?

Let's start with the concept of "restyling".

"Restyling (from the English restyling" modernization; change of style ") in the automotive industry - a change in the exterior and interior of the car in order to please fashion trends or the changed corporate style of the brand.

Now translation from Russian into Russian. If some "Customer", which needs additional ships of Project 22160, and some additional (different from the original) combat missions are determined for these ships, then the Severnoye PKB can change the thickness of the guard rails and the configuration of the galley equipment for these requirements. And sheathe the captain's chair in gray leather.

In general, the terminology should be more careful.

For “… Restyling is carried out due to obsolescence of the car. It is carried out, as a rule, 3-4 years after the release of a new generation and allows you to extend the life cycle of the model for a similar period ".

In general, if everyone correctly understood the statement of the general director, then we are talking about a superficial renovation of the ships of the project 22160.


And here the question arises: is it necessary?

About the "Customer". There are only one and a half. Russian Navy and Algerian Navy. The Algerian Navy is just a half, because there have been statements about the fact that a contract for the construction of ships was signed. But no details.

Although the information leaked to the media says that in Russia only one ship will be built for Algeria (if any), the other three will be built directly in Algeria. And that's all, no more information, including about the construction of a ship at Russian shipyards.

So it is likely that the "agreement" with Algeria is nothing more than a marketing ploy to attract potential buyers.

As for the Russian ships of project 22160, then on navy they received the nickname "doves of peace". So the sailors appreciated the more than mediocre combat value of these ships.

And here it is just right to ask the question: where did all this come from? As one character of a Soviet cartoon said, "a tree just won't buzz like that."

Of course, money is at the heart of everything. This is normal. It's not normal - it's when there is no money. This is a very uncomfortable state of both the soul and the body.

The Northern PKB has no money and is not particularly expected.

And here it is simply necessary to make an excursion into the recent past, which can perfectly illustrate the current situation.

In general, what is the task of such a company as the Northern Design Bureau? That's right, work on creating ships that will then have to be built. Then there will be money, awards and everything else. When there is no work - accordingly, nothing like that will happen.

The market is so ... ruthless.

The story actually began in 2006. Then the Border Service of the FSB of Russia announced a tender for a new patrol ship to protect coastal waters. The winner (as expected) was the Project 22460 Okhotnik, a “court” ship of the Northern PKB.


Many opinions were expressed on this topic at one time, mainly the accusations were directed at the director of the SPKB, Yuri Fedorovich Yarov, a former Leningrad party functionary who found himself in the chair of the general director of the SPKB.

Yarov, a man with a really interesting career, could well have used his skills in hardware games. In general, it is not so important today, the main thing is that the 22460 project won the tender and went into production. And for the creation of the ship's project, several designers were awarded the State Prize of the Russian Federation.

Later, however, it turned out that the ship was not very good. More precisely, you can think of worse, but not worth it.

At the start, there were sanctions, and instead of German engines from MTU, they had to install Chinese ones. Russian diesel engines, as you understand, for ships of this class do not exist in nature. Chinese diesel engines could not give out the required 30 knots, nowadays the characteristics are modest "up to 28 knots in calm water", in fact, the correct figure is 25-26 knots.

Further, it turned out that even with a slight excitement, the oncoming waves flooded the ship over the glass of the wheelhouse and seriously sway the patrol boat.

“Driving on calm water” with maximum speed is a separate song. In the characteristics of the ship it was stated that "the ship will be able to carry out service in a sea state of 6 points, while freely maneuvering."

In fact, the 630-ton boat, with such excitement, bounced like a ball over the waves. How about "free maneuvering" - it's hard to say, let's not touch on this topic.

But it can be added that despite the fact that the ship's equipment includes a helicopter weighing up to 12 tons (Ka-226 or Ansat) and 4 drones, for which a telescopic telescopic hangar is provided, the use of these means is possible only in calm weather, since the slightest excitement at sea, multiplied by the instability of a small boat, simply excludes normal takeoff and landing on the deck of the patrol boat.

Therefore, the helicopter is the rarest guest on the ships of Project 22460.


And it is not surprising that the Border Service of the FSB of the Russian Federation has significantly reduced the series of ships, after the construction of the last, "Rasul Gamzatov", which will become the fourteenth in a row, the construction of ships of project 22460 will not continue.

So of the 30 originally planned ships, the border service decided to limit itself to 14.

Yarov left the chair of the general director of SPKB in 2007 and difficult times began for the bureau. Participation in the tender for a frontier ship of the 1st rank of the oceanic zone (immediately thinking about the Pacific Fleet) SPKB failed miserably. And in fact, the hero of our story, the project 22160 ship, was out of work. And something had to be done about it.

Actually, there was only one way out - by hook or by crook to shove the corvette of the Russian Navy.

The chance, more precisely, the coincidence of circumstances, helped. In 2013, when we had not yet spoiled relations with the whole world, the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, visited the United States, where he was received by his then-colleague, Commander-in-Chief of the US Navy, Admiral Greenert. It was Grinert who introduced Chirkov to the so-called littoral ships.


Then the idea of ​​modular warships with interchangeable weapons in containers looked very impressive. And Chirkov was impressed by the "Freedom".


Now we know that the littoral ships of the US Navy are still a headache. At a cost of $ 500 million, the ships carry frankly weak weapons from a 57-mm cannon, a short-range RAM SAM system and a helicopter. For a patrol ship of 3000 tons, this is not enough. And the container modules are still in the debugging stage. Although, of course, no one canceled the carrying capacity of 700 tons and the speed of 45 knots, and these are strong components of the project.

But Chirkov liked the "Freedom". And the admiral became a supporter of modularity, and since the representatives of the SPKB promised exactly modularity in the 22160 project, the commander-in-chief began to promote this project for admission to the Navy.

True, unlike American designers, SPKB did not promise a speed of 45 knots. Maximum 30. But modularity and the ability to accommodate containers with cruise missiles "Caliber" or anti-ship missiles "Uranus" is quite.

And in the end it turned out that the tender for corvettes for the protection of the water area was canceled by Chirkov in favor of Project 22160, and the fleet immediately ordered six such ships.

In general, they shoved the ships into the fleet. For what? If you look in the same place where they write about the characteristics, then for "carrying out patrol service for the protection of territorial waters, patrolling a 200-mile economic zone in the open and closed seas, suppressing smuggling and pirate activities, searching and providing assistance to victims of maritime disasters in peacetime , and in the military for the protection of ships and vessels in the passage by sea, as well as naval bases and water areas in order to warn of an attack by various enemy forces and assets. "

That is, what, in theory, the patrol ships of the Border Guard Service should have been doing. Why the Navy needs such happiness is somewhat unclear.

But it is a fact: the ship, which the Coast Guard of the Border Guard Service did not build for its own purposes, ended up in the Russian Navy for approximately the same purposes. It is logical that the ship was created for this, and it would be difficult to use a patrol ship, say, in the role of a minesweeper. But why is he to the fleet - it is still very difficult to say.

The difficulties began immediately. It was not possible to squeeze out the promised 30-knot speed even on "Vasily Bykov", which has engines from MAN. What will be the rest of the ships that will be equipped with the engines of the Kolomna plant, we still have to find out.

But if under engines from MAN "Bulls" produced 27 knots, then how many will be with 10D49 of the Kolomna diesel locomotive plant - I will not undertake to say. The 10D49 is a 16-cylinder version of the very common 5D49 diesel locomotive with an output of 5200 hp.

For reference: "Ivan Gren", equipped with two such diesel engines with a displacement of 5 tons, produces a maximum of 000 knots.

It can be assumed that the maximum speed of Project 22160 ships under Kolomna diesel engines will be from 22 to 24 knots.

The armament of the ships of the project 22160 is not very different from the armament of the border patrol boats. The main caliber is the 76-mm automatic universal gun AK-176MA. One. Two anti-sabotage machine guns "Kord" 12,7 mm, two automatic grenade launchers. The anti-aircraft armament consists of one installation 3M47 "Gibka" and eight MANPADS "Igla" or "Verba".

There is a place for helicopter landing, but there is no helicopter in the permanent set. It can land and be used, but not constantly, since a slip is equipped in the stern for receiving an assault landing boat of project 02800.


True, it can be lowered and taken only when the excitement is no more than two points. The helicopter also cannot be used when the sea is more than 3 points.

In general, larger than project 22460, but the same gentle phenomenon.

And what about the "Calibers"?

And with "Caliber" everything is very sad. The attempt was made when "Vasily Bykov" through internal channels crossed from the Baltic to the White Sea, where the "Caliber" firing was to take place.

The small missile ships Zeleny Dol (Project 21631 Buyan-M) and Odintsovo (Project 22800 Karakurt), which came together with Bykov, were successfully fired by the Caliber at both surface and ground targets.


"Vasily Bykov" could not shoot.

It turned out (why only then?) That launching a cruise missile from a container at the stern is dangerous, since it can lead to an accident due to the fact that the ship's hull was very narrowed in the stern, where the container with missiles should have been. We decided not to risk it.

After it became clear that the "Vasily Bykov" constructively could not launch missiles from the container at the stern, there was talk that the "Calibers" on the "Bykov" could be placed in a vertical launcher 3S14 for eight cells, which can be shoved between the AK turret -176 and superstructure.

Why is the question of the century. There are ships that were originally designed to accommodate and launch cruise missiles from them. Both "Buyans" and "Karakurt" are obviously more reliable carriers of "Caliber" than the usual patrol patrol, converted for this purpose.

There is an opinion (from knowledgeable smart people) that it is more profitable to build specialized ships, increasing the number of high-quality carriers of "Caliber", than to pull an owl on a globe, trying to stick "calibers" wherever possible.

Not always (especially in our country) quantity is necessarily quality. After all, we have both ships and submarines to carry the "Caliber". Normally equipped for this.

As for the ships of Project 22160, the alteration for something that goes beyond the scope of the patrol ship is unlikely to cause a global improvement in the characteristics of an already unsuccessful ship. Re-styling is not what you really need.

There was an attempt to install the vertical installation of the 3S14M anti-aircraft missile system "Shtil-3" for 90 missiles in the place where they wanted to shove the 1S12. This seems to have improved the ship's air defense and would have allowed it to perform somewhat broader tasks. However, it turned out that it is possible to arrange, but how and with what the missiles will be guided is unclear.

The fact is that "Positive-MK", which was developed for small ships with corresponding tasks, is somewhat weak for working with such a "fat" complex as "Shtil-1", which was generally developed on the basis of "Buk-M1" for ships class frigate destroyer.

And the Shtil-1 is frankly too heavy for a ship of this class.

And the result was a "nothing" ship. "Dove of peace". As many "experts" from naval affairs began to explain, in terms of characteristics, the patrol ships of Project 22160 are close to offshore patrol ships (OPV), which are part of many fleets of the world.

Will "pigeons" improve "Gauges"?
OPV-80 built in Germany

That is, everything is correct, the whole world is building such squalor, which means that we also need it.

Here are just gentlemen "experts" for some reason do not specify who builds such ships as OPV, and for whom. And here everything is very informative. Such ships are being built by France, Germany, South Korea and even Romania. Mainly for those who cannot build themselves. Senegal, Thailand, Pakistan and so on.

That is, OPV (Offshore Patrol Vessel) is built primarily for those who do not have the ability (industrial or financial) to build normal warships. A beggar's watchman, if you will.

And this ship of project 22160 Severnoye PKB wants to make a "candy" with the help of the declared restyling. However, we all know perfectly well what candy is not made from. So from the project 22160 a normal strike ship will not come out.

In order for something worthwhile and sane to come out, the ship must be made longer, wider and deeper. So that the same "Calibers", starting off, would not risk breaking off their wings or smashing the launch containers. Well, or just to place normal strike weapons.

But sorry, we already have such ships!

"Admiral Gorshkov" - well, where is it better? Already in service, already under construction. And do not require finishing touches like "owl to the globe".


It is clear that everyone wants to live. And the employees of the Northern PKB are no exception. But excuse me, maybe we should end up with the undercover games and do what is so necessary today and tomorrow? That is, the creation of really necessary ships for the Russian fleet? And not trying to sell what is under the guise of what is needed?

Restyling in the automotive world is the agony of the model. This is when they no longer take it, but it is necessary to sell the remaining reserve. But it works with cars. With battleships, things are a little different.

The Northern Design Bureau should think about the future of the enterprise. If they continue to work there, as on the Vietnamese PS-500 corvette, as on the ships of projects 22460 and 22160, soon there will be another bankrupt in Russia.

We do not need restyling for the "doves of peace". We need normal and functional ships. You shouldn't shove "Caliber" on fire stations, they will not become warships from this. The world has changed, it is worth understanding and accepting it.
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  1. andrewkor
    andrewkor 26 May 2021 05: 34
    +21
    Why does the border guard Caliber need it, is it not clear?
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 26 May 2021 06: 10
      +4
      "Admiral Gorshkov" - well, where is it better?
      And what about the engines for them?
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 26 May 2021 10: 35
        +10
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        And what about the engines for them?

        According to the web resource Sudostroenie.info, PJSC Severnaya Verf Shipyard (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation JSC) in St. Petersburg in December 2020 completed the loading of the first Russian-made gas turbine engines and gearboxes into the hold of the feed machine. branches of the frigate "Admiral Golovko" of project 22350 (serial number 923) under construction for the Russian Navy. This is stated in the report published on January 19, 2021 on the channel of the shipbuilding enterprise Severnaya Verf
        © bmpd
        If Zvezda does not shut down the production of gearboxes, then 22350 with a power plant will be better than everyone else.
        1. Uncle lee
          Uncle lee 26 May 2021 11: 36
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The power plant in 22350 will be better than all the others.

          good good good We can only be proud of the Northern Shipyard!
        2. Thrifty
          Thrifty 26 May 2021 11: 44
          +3
          Alexey, they shut down production, but only Zvezda has ready-made gearboxes, which means there will be money to pay for gearboxes, although the Moscow Region was ready to break the contract with Zvezda. Simply, there are no other suppliers of gearboxes, they destroyed the competitors.
      2. Cympak
        Cympak 26 May 2021 11: 52
        -1
        There is a main plug in the engines. In the 22160, you can strengthen the AA defense by installing 2 "Palma" or "Pantsir-M" air defense systems, install 2x4 launchers of the Kh-35 "Uranus" anti-ship missile system. But the speed is already less than 25 knots. with add. it will be even smaller in armament
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 26 May 2021 14: 37
          +3
          Quote: Cympak
          In the 22160, you can strengthen the AA defense by installing 2 "Palma" or "Pantsir-M" air defense systems, install 2x4 launchers of the Kh-35 "Uranus" anti-ship missile system.

          And what about stability with such additional equipment?
          1. Cympak
            Cympak 26 May 2021 22: 06
            +2
            What problems do you see with stability? I'm not suggesting to put all this on a helicopter hangar.
            Here is an example - pr. 22500
    2. Alceers
      Alceers 26 May 2021 07: 24
      +16
      Why does the Navy need a border patrol?
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 26 May 2021 08: 04
        +20
        Well, then you have to learn history. In the distant years, Vladimir Vladimirovich ordered to START PATROLING THE GULF OF ADEN! What was the commander-in-chief of the Navy supposed to say? Can not? Can't the fleet pull? Or what. This is actually an order. So they began to perform:
        - Corvettes are not taken out, because it is far away, the autonomy is small, and even less autonomy for the helicopter (in fact, 1 on-site refueling + in the helicopter).
        - Any Okay and other Sharp-witted do not take out, because there is no helicopter at all. And without him, it is simply impossible to come to the aid of the ship, only convoy service.
        - So went the BOD (Chabanenko, for example, the corpse is still, and others also suffered greatly, falling out for 2-4 years after several patrols), the TFR (Undaunted still corpse), the cruiser. For only BNK of the 1st rank can ensure the fulfillment of the task of the supreme commander-in-chief, they have autonomy, a sufficient supply of fuel for a helicopter (or even a couple of helicopters).
        - It became clear that the rate of the ships falling out significantly exceeds the rate of their repair (and this is even before the sanctions, Crimea).
        - The Navy has formed requirements for the early construction of patrol ships that will combine the necessary qualities - high autonomy, resource due to the use of only medium-speed diesel engines, good seaworthiness, a large supply of fuel for an onboard helicopter, its own assault means for anti-piracy operations and the release of captured ships.
        However, then the traditional pace came and, as a result, the necessary ships were traditionally late. Now there are no such explicit tasks. Sawing on the slipways?

        In general, the boat is quite applicable. Again, over there the British drove a patrolman to the World Cup. This is a working tactic. It is quite possible to demonstrate intentions by sending attention to these 22160 people, preserving the BNK resource. Well, and there, who knows, all of a sudden it will be necessary to crush some thread of pirates again, and the fleet will already be ready wink .

        As for the fleet - so, the PSKR FSB cannot just act outside the country, they have no powers. Here in China, they can and they build quite a coast guard cruisers with unlimited seaworthiness, and then they are driven to Pakistan / Indonesia / Africa / Peru for a bride show.

        But the world's largest PSKR - 2 heavy helicopters Z-8, a bunch of funds for the landing of assault groups and assault groups, an autonomy of 15 miles for fuel and 000 days for supplies, a speed of 80 knots, 25 tons.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 26 May 2021 11: 12
          +9
          Quote: donavi49
          - The Navy has formed requirements for the early construction of patrol ships that will combine the necessary qualities - high autonomy, resource due to the use of only medium-speed diesel engines, good seaworthiness, a large supply of fuel for an onboard helicopter, its own assault means for anti-piracy operations and the release of captured ships.

          And as a result, they built a PSKR of 1700 tons, with restrictions on the use of anti-piracy means - a helicopter and a landing boat.
          While the anti-piracy ship DMZ is primarily a cabin carrier for the landing force and a helicopter carrier for their delivery. Moreover, at least two helicopters are needed: one is landing troops, the other is covering. Plus, the ship needs seaworthiness and autonomy. And we get ... no, not Absalon - it's long and expensive. We receive a converted bulk carrier or tanker.
          1. Cympak
            Cympak 26 May 2021 11: 34
            +2
            And I would like to have something like the Absalon as an expedition ship: with 2 helicopters, 2 Raptor-type assault boats, a universal deck for 10-12 BTR-80 or BMP-3F with a ramp in water and weapons, like corvettes 20385.
            These were the ships that had to be made instead of the BDK pr.11711 "Ivan Gren".
            The mere appearance of such a ship off the coast of the "banana republic" will be a very weighty argument in negotiations.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 26 May 2021 11: 36
              +4
              Quote: Cympak
              And I would like to have something like the Absalon as an expedition ship: with 2 helicopters, 2 Raptor-type assault boats, a universal deck for 10-12 BTR-80 or BMP-3F with a ramp in water and weapons, like corvettes 20385.

              Knowing our Navy, the result will be "Gren" at maximum speed. smile
              1. bayard
                bayard 27 May 2021 04: 55
                0
                It was just necessary to drive the BDK into the Gulf of Aden, not the BOD, but the BDK. But not all of them are with helicopters. Otherwise, there are fewer marines, more supplies, and a helicopter for a quick response.
            2. AC130 Ganship
              AC130 Ganship 26 June 2021 16: 11
              -1
              In what particular region do you propose to use it? Nato technology has gone far from the banana republics
        2. Cympak
          Cympak 26 May 2021 11: 55
          +1
          In general, the boat is quite applicable. Again, over there the British drove a patrolman to the World Cup. This is a working tactic. It is quite possible to demonstrate intentions by sending attention to these 22160 people, preserving the BNK resource.

          Yes, that's just not much use it for its intended purpose. How many times have 22160 been on duty or accompanying our ships in the DMZ?
        3. Eug
          Eug 26 May 2021 15: 49
          +1
          Those. Are their speed of 25 knots satisfied?
    3. Anachoret
      Anachoret 26 May 2021 09: 59
      0
      this series is easier to adapt to minesag or anti-submarine (without missile containers) in case of a military threat)
      I would like to hope that Chirkov and this whole company, pushing such projects, also loves to sculpt such ships from bread crumb)))
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 26 May 2021 07: 42
      +4
      Oh, "Gauges"! This is the beloved wife of the Kremlin! And the military-industrial complex understands this, that is, they understand that in order to ensure the advancement of the project, it must be equipped with "Caliber". I stuck "Caliber" in place or out of place and you can already hope that the "project" will go ... wink
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar 26 May 2021 09: 04
        0
        Quote: Snail N9
        I stuck "Caliber" in place or out of place and you can already hope that the "project" will go ...

        And there is a reason. The ship must be armed with at least something, since it claims to be a combat unit. And "Caliber" is the most flexible and versatile that is now.
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 26 May 2021 10: 59
          +2
          you need to continue to try to make inclined launchers for calibers and onyxes (all the more, there are developments and have been tested successfully.Vertical start is not a panacea), then the modernization of the BOD and Atlantis will simply be cheaper (more likely at times). uuuuh right now the cons will trample))
          1. Kalmar
            Kalmar 26 May 2021 11: 26
            +2
            Quote: pin_code
            you need to continue to try to make inclined launchers for calibers and onyxes (all the more, there are developments and have been tested successfully.Vertical start is not a panacea), then the modernization of the BOD and Atlantis will simply be cheaper (more likely at times)

            This is yes, especially since at 1234.7 an inclined launcher for the Onyx was quite good. For Atlantis, it would be the most reasonable option (it will not be easy to squeeze the VPU there). True, until it comes down to business, the ships, I'm afraid, will already become too old for modernization.
      2. pin_code
        pin_code 26 May 2021 10: 55
        0
        here I agree with you ... onyxes are generally mentioned much less often in the media ...
    2. Kalmar
      Kalmar 26 May 2021 09: 02
      +3
      Quote: seregin-s1
      Right now an English patrol ship has entered the Black Sea. Send "Moscow" for his escort?

      The Black Sea Fleet includes patrol boats 1135 and frigates 11356, which, as escorts, will be much more convincing than a yacht with a cannon. To create a whole new project only for romantic walks with foreign ships under the moon is somehow not about our military budgets.
      1. Angry
        Angry 27 May 2021 17: 01
        0
        Let's not forget that in the Black Sea Fleet there are 5 more missiles pr.1241 of them 4 with "Mosquitoes" on each with four anti-ship missiles, two MRK 1239 "Bora" with eight "Mosquitoes" each and another MRK pr. 1234 with six "Malachites" ", + three pr. Buyan-M in general with" Calibers ". So by sending one of the listed RTOs or RCs for "weapon tracking" .... Nothing else is needed. As the partners know that from 3-5 km "Mosquito" will simply break through their "ridge", and they will not have time to "grunt".
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 May 2021 10: 38
      +5
      Quote: seregin-s1
      Compare this incomparable to buffoons! Frontier ship and patrol ship of the far sea zone.

      The problem is that we have the same thing.
      The patrol ship, project 22160, is the former PSKR BOKHR FSB. And officially announced tasks for naval For some reason, for the most part, the patrol ship belongs to the competence of the FSB.
      Quote: seregin-s1
      Right now an English patrol ship has entered the Black Sea. Send "Moscow" for his escort?

      Corvette OVR. Which was planned for construction, which was much more needed by the fleet and which was killed for the construction of patrolmen.
  3. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 26 May 2021 06: 59
    0
    I will thank the author.
    For some, these are common truths, but for me, if not a sea man, something became clear.
    1. UltraTotenkopF
      UltraTotenkopF 26 May 2021 07: 13
      -6
      I will thank the author.
      For some, these are common truths, but for me, if not a sea man, something became clear.

      The author poured water, and for some reason he wants to make a cruiser from the patrol ship of project 22160, why is not clear, but apparently the author knows better than the leadership of the Navy what is needed for the fleet!
      1. faiver
        faiver 26 May 2021 08: 14
        +5
        but apparently the author we have better than the leadership of the Navy knows what is needed for the fleet!
        - with such a leadership of the Navy, enemies are not needed, everything old has been ditched, but forgive the new one for one zip
        1. UltraTotenkopF
          UltraTotenkopF 26 May 2021 08: 30
          -1
          with such a leadership of the Navy, enemies are not needed, everything old has been ditched, but forgive the new one for one puff

          It is not clear what you are talking about, this is a patrol ship of the far sea zone, and it meets all the parameters, it has many buns for the actions of the MTR forces, has acceptable living conditions for a large number of people, a hospital for 40 people can be deployed on board, it has a helicopter, you can download in containers a bunch of useful equipment for the actions of DRGs and frogmen! If it upsets you that it does not have serious strike weapons, it was not designed for this, this is a ship for solving specific tasks, because you do not require that a hospital ship could carry "Caliber" or "Uranus"! wink
          1. faiver
            faiver 26 May 2021 08: 42
            +10
            Yes, yes, we with pirates fight every day in the distant ocean spaces that we need for this as many as six such galoshes specially for the MTR, especially given our huge merchant fleet wink
            1. UltraTotenkopF
              UltraTotenkopF 26 May 2021 09: 08
              -1
              Quote: faiver
              Yes, yes, we with pirates fight every day in the distant ocean spaces that we need for this as many as six such galoshes specially for the MTR, especially given our huge merchant fleet wink

              And what do the pirates have to do with it, the ship has a wide range of applications, you probably forget that our fishermen in neutral waters systematically have problems with Norwegian "partners", and more than once the Federation Council had to send ships there in order to moderate the ardor of our neighbors, but Now think about what to send, Peter the Great, Admiral Gorshkov to such an arrow, or send a patrol ship of Project 22160?
              1. faiver
                faiver 26 May 2021 09: 12
                +7
                systematic problems arise with Norwegian "partners"
                - in the Black Sea? all "pigeons" are assigned to the Black Sea Fleet bully
                1. UltraTotenkopF
                  UltraTotenkopF 26 May 2021 09: 37
                  -5

                  in the Black Sea? all "pigeons" are assigned to the Black Sea Fleet

                  And that this somehow changes the essence of the issue, I gave you an example of the use of these ships, for some reason, many have the impression that the entire Russian fleet, in the morning but at night, is only engaged in fighting the enemy's AUG, but the fleet has to solve much more banal issues in real everyday life, and for some reason no one in England shouts that enemies are in the command of the Royal Navy, although they also order ships of the "River-2" class wink
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 26 May 2021 10: 49
                    +13
                    Quote: UltraTotenkopF
                    and for some reason, no one in England is shouting that enemies have settled in the command of the Royal Navy, although they also order ships of the "River-2" class

                    Because England, at the very least, has a fleet that stands behind the OPV. And we have no bread, but we bake cakes.

                    The main complaint about Project 22160 is that the fleet has a much more important task than patrolling the DMZ. And this task cannot be fulfilled by the fleet. I'm talking about ensuring the exit from the SSBN bases. The OVR anti-submarine ships available to the Navy were built during the times of the last three secretaries general, they were not modernized, all deadlines were out. They were to be replaced by an OVR corvette, work on which was closed by Chirkov for the sake of ordering project 22160. Project 22160 itself cannot replace the MPK due to the absence of any PLO systems except for a helicopter on it.
                    The result - the OVR died, the nuclear submarines of the "potential enemy" can even be on duty at the exit from the base, waiting for the SSBN. But we are building toothless patrolmen, this is more important.
                    1. Nemchinov Vl
                      Nemchinov Vl 26 May 2021 19: 28
                      +2
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      OVR anti-submarine ships available to the Navy built during the last three general secretaries, were not modernized, all deadlines were out. They were to be replaced by the OVR corvette, work on which was closed by Chirkov for the order of pr. 22160.
                      but dear Alexey, the fact is that in the Navy as corvettes OVR, (PLO), pushed (contracted for "Army-2020"), again inappropriateness as 20380 !!!, not the same 11664 (!) .... And in your opinion, this is also to blame 22160, already in 2020 year ?! For OVR, corvette without PLUR (20380 !!!) .... ? !! Fine ?!!, maximum speed about 27 nodes (!), which is less than the boats of a potential enemy (!).No one was embarrassed ?!
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 27 May 2021 11: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        but dear Alexey, the fact is that in the Navy as corvettes OVR, (PLO), they pushed them through (contracted for "Army-2020"), again inappropriateness in the form of 20380 !!!, and not the same 11664 (!). ... And in your opinion, 22160 is also to blame for this, already in 2020? !!!

                        Yeah - the fact that because of him 7 years were lost. smile
                        And now you have to choose for the urgent replacement of the zombie-IPC from the OVR those ships that can be built quickly. That is, serial projects.
                        Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                        For OVR, corvette without PLUR (20380 !!!) ....? !! Normal? !!, with a maximum speed of about 27 knots (!), Which is less than the boats of a potential enemy (!).

                        And does the massive OVR corvette with a displacement of 2,5 kt, and even with an unexploited industrial power plant (GTE), does not bother anyone? wink
                      2. Nemchinov Vl
                        Nemchinov Vl 29 May 2021 22: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Yeah - the fact that because of him 7 years were lost.
                        why because of him ?! What prevented the Rakhman, Krivoruchko, Chirkov, at this time "ski" industry (and finance controlled), for the fastest start-up of diesel engines of the "D-500" family, over these seven years ?! really patrolman 22160 (! 0, interfered with this? !!
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        And does the massive OVR corvette with a displacement of 2,5 kt, and even with an unexploited industrial power plant (GTE), does not bother anyone?
                        it is the power plant of four such diesel engines "D-500" (8000 hp each !!) that begs for such corvettes to reach 30+ knots ... (!). Why didn't Rahman make every effort in this direction ?! Why is he heading the USC ?! This is the project of patrol 22160, all the fault, and prevented him? !!
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        And now you have to choose for an urgent replacement of the zombie IPC from the OVR those ships that can be built quickly.
                        if they are not functional !!!, then - NOT NECESSARY !!! And the fact that they can be built FAST (In your 6-7 years at 20380 is fast ???) ... bad excuse in this case (!)...
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        That is, serial projects.
                        a project that is not ordered or built simply has no chance - become SERIAL (!)... I'm talking about 11664, instead of which they build expensive (!), NOT functional (!), And slow 20380 (!) .... For that they drive a series? !!! crying Only God forbid someone will have to fight boats on them ...
        2. Kalmar
          Kalmar 26 May 2021 11: 36
          +4
          Quote: UltraTotenkopF
          has a lot of goodies for the actions of the MTR forces, has acceptable living conditions for a large number of people, a hospital for 40 people can be deployed on board, has a helicopter, you can load a bunch of useful equipment in containers for the actions of DRGs and combat swimmers!

          There was already an article where these buns were sorted out: the living conditions are doubtful due to the large pitching, the boat can only be used on calm water, a similar story with a helicopter. And it makes sense to build a ship for DRG and combat swimmers (in my incompetent opinion) on the basis of a civilian ship of large displacement: cheaper, more spacious and attracts less attention.
        3. alexmach
          alexmach 26 May 2021 18: 06
          +2
          has a lot of goodies for the actions of the forces of the MTR

          For example, the excitement limit of 2 points?
  4. Hagen
    Hagen 26 May 2021 09: 52
    +4
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    For some, these are common truths, but for me, if not a sea man, something became clear.

    Frankly speaking, as not a sea man, I had questions for the author. So he says that with the "calibers" on the "Bykov" "everything is sad." And what exactly is sad? Do we have "calibers" in containers in service? I personally have not heard. Maybe I missed it, tell me, correct it. But if there are no missiles, then it is clear why "Bykov", according to the report from the exercises, fired, but with electronic launches. And this means that at least a set of equipment for firing on the ship was already at the time of the exercises already in 2019. At the same time, references to certain risks of launches from a ship, which is one and a half times more in displacement than the same Buyan-M, are not entirely clear. Can someone from the experts explain what problems may arise when launching missiles at 22160? The case will burst in half upon recoil, or what else could happen to it? I'm not a sailor, but I'm just wondering ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 26 May 2021 07: 14
    +3
    Restyling is not agony) the Camry had 12 pieces of them since 84. Everything will not die)))
  • wolf46
    wolf46 26 May 2021 07: 24
    +4
    These "doves of peace" are only able to drive away sea pirates (Ukraine, Somalia). In the navy, apparently, it is beneficial for someone to keep them in the composition - for the sake of the staff, positions, titles, etc.
  • Shiden
    Shiden 26 May 2021 07: 57
    +3
    The novel, at least from time to time, wrote laudatory odes to the domestic military-industrial complex, and then what kind of liberal views you have, you don’t like your homeland. It was, of course, my sarcasm, continue in the same spirit, maybe for the patriots in quotes it will come that they are sawing money not only over the hill but also can give their own odds.
    1. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 26 May 2021 09: 35
      +4
      if you want a daring positivist - read Staver's articles hi
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 26 May 2021 09: 47
    -1
    I read with interest the article by the respected Roman Skomorokhov, it is clear that 6 guard officers for the Navy are the same 6 that the border service refused to receive, Question ... and what ships can the Severnoye PKB design? and they have nothing to design! everything has already been designed, even put into production, what is the design itch? there is a frigate, there is even a corvette, but we do not need battleships and aircraft carriers, there are no tasks for them. We need minesweepers and Karakurt PLO, but others are designing them. Specialists are also successfully dealing with the pads. If we talk about the modernization of the patrolmen, then the PLO option suggests itself, because the IPCs are all old and they need to be transferred to the seas, taking from there all the corvettes frigates and the cruiser, of course, if 6 new IPCs appear, then the need for the IPC will be closed for a long time, for the BF CFL and the Sea of ​​Japan by a couple, the rest (4-10) at the Black Sea Fleet, in total, the need for 10-15 pennants will turn out, of course, the development of an ICP based on an existing ship is more difficult, but you need to try, or transfer them to the border guards and forget ...
    1. Tiksi-3
      Tiksi-3 26 May 2021 19: 40
      0
      Quote: vladimir1155
      We need minesweepers and Karakurt PLO

      belay fool Karakurt PLO ???? where did you see them ????
      Quote: vladimir1155
      but others design them.

      who, what others ?? ... you need to be in the subject, and not write nonsense !!
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 26 May 2021 20: 40
        -2
        The solution was the creation and launch into a series of small missile ships of a new type - Project 22800 "Karakurt", which were already specially designed to solve problems both in the near and far sea zones. The new MRK was designed by specialists of the St. Petersburg Central Marine Design Bureau "Almaz",

        The base minesweepers of Project 12700 "Alexandrite" are a series of Russian naval anti-mine ships of the base zone of the 3rd rank, the project of this minesweeper was created at the Central Marine Design Bureau "Almaz"

        for Information Almaz on Petrovsky Island, and KB Severnoye at 6 Korabelnaya Street, St. Petersburg, these are different organizations, and there is also Malachite Lazurite and so on. boxes

        I have not seen the PLO karakurt, but I would very much like it to appear
        1. Tiksi-3
          Tiksi-3 26 May 2021 20: 43
          0
          Quote: vladimir1155
          karakurt PLO I have not seen

          they are not and will not be from the word at all and it is not necessary to write nonsense
  • Pushkowed
    Pushkowed 26 May 2021 10: 14
    +1
    The anti-aircraft armament consists of one installation 3M47 "Flexible" ...
    He doesn't have that.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 26 May 2021 10: 32
    +10
    That is, OPV (Offshore Patrol Vessel) is built primarily for those who do not have the ability (industrial or financial) to build normal warships. A beggar's watchman, if you will.

    Not certainly in that way. OPVs are also built by those who already have a normal fleet and who do not want to drive frigates and destroyers on every sneeze.
    But they are built either after the construction of full-fledged ships, or in parallel with them. We also built 22160 instead normal ships - for the sake of their order, the PLO corvette was killed, over the absence of which the fleet is now crying with burning tears.
    Glavkomat does not see prospects in the creation of ships, previously designated as "Corvette IAD". One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the adjacent territories. This task is now carried out by onshore observation means, stationary hydroacoustic stations and coastal missile-artillery troops, armed with anti-ship missiles of different ranges, as well as anti-submarine and strike aircraft.
    Rejecting the corvette, the Navy turned to the idea of ​​creating patrol ships - less armed, but with greater autonomy and versatility, capable, including, to go on long hikes. The design of the patrol ship will be handled by the North Design Bureau.
    © Navy Commander Chirkov
  • sevryuk
    sevryuk 26 May 2021 10: 51
    -5
    In 2013, when we had not yet spoiled relations with the whole world,

    Everything is clear with the author ....
  • prior
    prior 26 May 2021 10: 53
    +1
    I read the article.
    One gets the impression that the Russian Navy is "headless".
    Isn't it possible to take the best of what is in the world shipbuilding as a basis for designing, repeat it if possible and improve it if possible?
    Aviation has been and continues to follow this principle and it has no problems similar to the Navy.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 May 2021 11: 44
      +4
      Quote: prior
      Isn't it possible to take the best of what is in the world shipbuilding as a basis for designing, repeat it if possible and improve it if possible?

      Can. But for this you need to understand what exactly our Navy needs. That is, to determine the goals and priorities of the fleet.
      In the meantime, we have some kind of hellish circus going on. We are building SSBNs, but there are no new OVR ships and the required number of SSNNs for them. Moreover, new SSBNs are transferred to where the situation with ASW and PMO is the worst.
  • alstr
    alstr 26 May 2021 10: 53
    +3
    I want to correct the author a little about restyling.
    Reystaling in the automotive industry means not only a change in appearance (by the way, body changes can also be serious), but also a partial change in the design of internal units. For example, the suspension is often changed. Even replacement of engines is possible.

    So in relation to ships, restyling can have a very wide range of changes.
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 26 May 2021 17: 53
      +2
      Quote: alstr
      So in relation to ships, restyling can have a very wide range of changes.

      Do you think that if you upgrade the suspension on these ships, the pitching will be less? (joke)
      1. alstr
        alstr 27 May 2021 08: 46
        +1
        Well, we have enough historical examples of "restyling" projects.
        On a vskidku Destroyers 7 and 7-U, 30, 30-K, 30-bis, 57 and 57-bis.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 26 May 2021 13: 09
    0
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Moreover, new SSBNs are transferred to where the situation with ASW and PMO is the worst.

    Worse than a wrecker.
  • Victor Tsenin
    Victor Tsenin 26 May 2021 21: 28
    0
    > the project will be restyled
    Medvedev read it, waved his iPhone, gave money to drive.
  • Gunther
    Gunther 26 May 2021 23: 37
    0
    Quote: Author
    Let's start with the concept of "restyling". "Restyling (from the English restyling" modernization; change of style ")


    the trouble with the dull-tongued, babbling in some kind of newspeak and crap in Russian, is that they invest their understanding in the poor Englishism they like - it is absolutely impossible for a normal person, even who speaks English, to understand them.
    For example, Egorka Gaidar translated the economic term "Flat" as a plane from the manuals provided to him in English - as a result, idiocy "flat scale" was born, in finance flat it is fixed, without interest.
    1. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 30 May 2021 21: 09
      0
      Quote: Gunter

      the trouble with the dull-tongued, babbling in some kind of newspeak and crap in Russian, is that they put their understanding into the poor Englishism they like - it's absolutely impossible for a normal person, even who speaks English, to understand them ..
      Incomprehensible, but beautiful and loud-sounding words are needed by the speaker, of any report so that the listeners do not understand anything, but they nodded their heads approvingly and clapped their hands at the end of the report.
  • AC130 Ganship
    AC130 Ganship 26 June 2021 16: 16
    -1
    Thanks to the author. Those. do you think that on the day of the Navy in St. Petersburg this ship will decide not to show us? There, just on the Neva, a wave above 3 points is rare :)
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 21 July 2021 13: 27
    0
    "Who orders the music?" CUSTOMER - Russian Navy. And they give him big money from the budget. So the demand from specific customers with shoulder straps should be specific. Then they will not raise the flag on a ship that is obviously unfit for combat work!
  • storm
    storm 18 August 2021 07: 54
    0
    It is necessary to convert all six ordered ships of project 21160 into the IPC.
    IPC
  • hostel
    hostel 13 October 2021 10: 59
    0
    The construction of project 22160, initially, was a mistake. And they wrote about this on VO. In fact, it is not even a combat unit. What to do with him. In my opinion, if the load items allow, then convert it into training ships. Remove the hangar and helicopter pad and equip it with Packets and Shells. And use for training crews and practical shooting. The construction of these ships with an acute shortage of PLO ships is a crime.