Military Review

City-states of Russia

214

N. Roerich "The city is being built"


From the end of the XI to the beginning of the XIV century in Russia, while observing the unity of language, faith, memory of the unity of the whole land, as the patrimony of the Rurikovichs, the processes of federalization or division of the country took place. They were caused by the emergence and development of a territorial community, in which each city of Russia perceived its neighbors as another “state”. Within the framework of the structure of the territorial community, it could not be otherwise.

I have already written about what the period of the neighboring-territorial community is. But I think this term should be clarified again. Since school education, everyone knows that the period from the middle of the XI-XIII centuries. - the period of feudal fragmentation. This concept was formed in the 30-40s of the twentieth century. under the influence of Marxist formational theory. Formation theory in the classical form was developed by historians in the USSR during the discussions at the end of the 20-30s, based on the developments of K. Marx and F. Engels.

As for the attribution of the early periods of the Russian stories to feudalism, here the key factor was the desire to show that Russia did not lag behind its neighbors in Europe and was on a par with them. To the natural question of what happened and what led to a severe lag behind most Western European countries and completely new countries such as the United States, it was explained that the backlog began due to the fact that Russia was stuck in the Middle Ages due to the political superstructure that significantly slowed down the process ... But ... let's not get ahead of ourselves, but go back to the XI-XII centuries. So, with the development of social and historical sciences, the view, both in the West and in the USSR, began to gain momentum on the presence of significant features and differences between countries both in the feudal formation and the signs of societies that do not fit the concept of “feudal”. I do not in the least deny the existence of a "feudal formation", unlike those historians who at first were apologists of feudalism, and then, after 1991, began to deny "feudalism" itself, rushing to use various anthropological theories. True, they were in a hurry, since current trends indicate that the formation approach, of course, differs from the approach of the 50-70s. XX century, remains the most systemic, explaining the development of at least European language groups.

Anthropological theories, such as, for example, the notorious "chiefdom" (earlier chiefdom, complex chiefdom, etc.), do not cancel or replace the formational approach to the development of mankind, but are an element of development associated precisely with the pre-class or potestarian period. Period, which consists of the tribal and territorial-communal system.

What was previously designated feudalism in school textbooks is a pre-class, potestarian society with only signs of the state and a horizontal, not hierarchical, system of government. Before feudalism during the second half of the XNUMXth - first half of the XNUMXth century. is still far away.

This period can be characterized as a time of multi-vector struggle:

First, the newly formed volosts (city-states) fought for their independence from the "center" - Kiev and the "Russian land".

Secondly, the city-states clashed with each other for tribute from the border tribes between Polotsk and Novgorod, Novgorod and Suzdal.

Thirdly, there were clashes between the princes of the House of Rurik for more profitable "feeding" in the city-states and for the "golden table" of Kiev.

Fourthly, the suburbs had collisions with the "older" cities: Pskov with Novgorod, Chernigov with Kiev, Galich with Vladimir Volynsky, Rostov with Suzdal, Vladimir on the Klyazma with Rostov.

We will show how events developed only in two iconic lands of Russia.

Kiev and Russian land


The same processes took place here as in the rest of the lands of the tribal "super-union" created by Russia.

First, Kiev was the oldest, that is, the oldest city of Russia, the capital of the entire "super-union".

Secondly, Kiev and its community have long been the "beneficiary" of income from lands subordinated to Russia.

Thirdly, the transition from a tribal to a territorial structure in Kiev also caused social changes that took place in all lands: the disintegration of the clan, an increase in inequality, the emergence of new categories of semi-free and slaves, yesterday's free communes, an increase in criminal offenses and usury.

Fourthly, its suburbs were actively fighting for independence: the first was Chernigov, followed by Pereyaslavl and Turov, which became the centers of new volosts.

And, finally, in Kiev there is a struggle within the framework of "primitive democracy", where the princes stood not above the community, but next to it. That is, a structure is being formed, which is called by modern researchers a city-state.

The development of the "Russian land", and especially of Kiev, was significantly influenced by external forces that undermined its economic power. Centrifugal tendencies were the first factor caused by the struggle of volosts for independence from Kiev. They contributed to a decrease in tribute income. The second factor was the threat from the nomads of the steppes of Eastern Europe, a threat that turned into a permanent war that required enormous efforts on the part of potestary education, which was Kievan Rus.

To fight the nomads, the grand dukes of Russia hire Varangians, "swift dans", move militia fighters from the northern lands of Eastern Europe. On the steppe border along the river. The Rosy accommodate the captive Poles (Poles) and small tribal steppe groups (Torks, Berendei), which came to Russia, not wanting to obey the Polovtsians. Fortifications are constantly being erected - ramparts. In the course of the struggle, the Pechenegs were defeated, but in their place came the Torks, part of the tribal union of the Uzes, who seized Central Asia and Iran to the south and created a powerful state of the Seljuk Turks. The Rus also dealt with them, but they were replaced by a new and more powerful nomadic alliance of the Polovtsians. Their horde significantly outnumbered both the Pechenegs and the Torks.

Polovtsy


The Polovtsy are the Kipchaks or the tribal union of the Kipchaks. The name of the Polovtsians is a tracing-paper from the self-designation of this tribe - "balls" - yellow. It is not connected with the appearance of the Kipchaks, it was just that in the steppe it was customary to use the color scheme in the names of ethnic groups: White Hephthalites, Black Bulgarians, White Horde.

In the 20s of the XI century. nomad-Kipchaks found themselves in the steppes of the Don, Donbass, and by the middle of the XI century. occupied the entire territory where the Pechenegs used to roam. They immediately began hostilities against Russia, and then Bulgaria, Hungary and Byzantium, and at the end of the XI century. helped the Byzantines to destroy the Pechenegs. In the XII century. some of the tribes went to Georgia, some concentrated on the exhausting war against the rich, but weakened Byzantium. At the same time, the Polovtsians move to the second stage of nomadism, and they have "stationary" towns - winter roads and summer roads, which made it easier for the Russians to fight them in the steppe. By the XIII century. Russian princes establish relations with them, marry Polovtsian khanshes, and Polovtsians in the XII-XIII centuries. participate as mercenaries in the volost wars in Russia.

But the Mongol invasion made significant adjustments. Some of the Polovtsians died in wars with them, some migrated or went to other countries (Hungary, Bulgaria). The rest were incorporated into the Mongol nomadic empire. In the steppes of Eastern Europe, it was the Polovtsians who became the basis for the formation of the "Tatars" ethnic group.


Gerasimov M. M. Prince Yaroslav the Wise. Reconstruction

In 1068, the children of Yaroslav the Wise: princes Izyaslav, Svyatoslav and Vsevolod, who led the squads and the volost militia, were defeated by the Polovtsy on the Alta River. The nomads began to devastate the "Russian land". To the call of the Kiev veche to issue weapon and horses Izyaslav Yaroslavovich refused. After that, the Kiev community expels the prince and "puts on the table" Vseslav, the son of Prince Bryacheslav from Polotsk, who was imprisoned in Kiev.

It should be said that a veche or a national assembly is not a dean's sitting in a modern parliament. Everywhere, and not only in Russia, but, say, in Constantinople at that time, the property of the "guilty" manager was plundered. This was not a “plunder of the mob”, but a tradition-sanctified section of “good” or “wealth” of a ruler who did not provide the community with adequate protection and welfare.

Despite the fact that Izyaslav, with the help of the Polish king Boleslav, returned to Kiev and even carried out repressions against the Kievites, most historians agree that the situation in 1068 and 1069. speaks of the significant political growth of the veche as a popular government body in Kiev. It is significant that this took place in the "domain of the Rurikovich" - the Russian land: after all, it is one thing, as it was in the XNUMXth century. - only to listen to the opinion of the city community, and another thing is the right of the community itself to determine whether it needs such a prince or not.

Most often, sources depict the veche at critical moments in history, which gives rise to some historians to doubt it as a permanent body of land management. But the veche is an organ of direct and direct democracy or people's rule, when the right to participate in government is not delegated to elected representatives, who also existed, but is exercised through the direct participation of all townspeople in the square. The "collective mind", of course, is not always right. We see spontaneous, ill-considered decisions, a rapid change of opinion caused by the element of the popular assembly - the element of the crowd. But this is the peculiarity of direct rule of the people.

It is significant that the Torg, the meeting place of the city meeting, was moved to the mountain, to the center of Kiev, next to the Tithe Church and the Cathedral of St. Sophia, which undoubtedly testified to the growing importance of the Veche in the life of Kiev.

And from the beginning of the XII century. an active struggle against the steppe inhabitants begins, and in 1111 the Russian princes inflicted a grand defeat on the Polovtsians, forcing them to migrate to the Danube and beyond the Don, thereby sharply weakening their pressure on the southern Russian lands.

In 1113, the "money-loving" and extremely unpopular prince Svyatopolk dies in Kiev, the townspeople plunder the estates of his thousander and Jewish usurers, who had previously received privileges in financial transactions from Svyatopolk.


V. Vasnetsov "The Hunt of Vladimir Monomakh"

Rezes or interest became a real scourge of the period of the formation of the neighboring community. Many members of the community fell into slavery for debt. The Kiyans invite Prince Vladimir Monomakh to the table with the condition of creating the "rules of the game" within the framework of a new situation, when the clan was no longer the protector of the individual. The adoption of moderate laws that streamlined the "cuts" - interest on loans, calmed the society. The rate was reduced from 50 to 17%, the amount of payments was clearly limited, the parameters and conditions for the "transition" of a free person to enslaving slavery - servitude were determined.

Similar reforms during the formation of the city-state in archaic Greece were carried out by many legislators, among whom the most famous and more radical than Vladimir Monomakh was Solon (638-560 BC), who wrote off debts and bought out fellow citizens who fell into bondage slavery.

The next steps towards the formation of the city-state were made in 1146, when the prince, who was sitting on the "golden" Kiev table, Vsevolod Olgovich (1139-1146), fell ill and died. The veche invited his brother Igor, but on certain conditions, the key of which was the question of the court: the veche demanded that the prince himself carry out the court, and not entrust it to the tiuns from the princely administration. The prince swore allegiance to the kiyans.

This important event in the formation of the city-state or "republic" in Kiev took place even earlier than in Novgorod. But Igor did not keep his oath, and the veche called another prince - Izyaslav Mstislavovich, the Kiev militia went over to the side of Izyaslav, and Igor was defeated, captured and tonsured a monk. But, despite this, when Izyaslav set out on a campaign against Suzdal with volunteers, the veche did not support the campaign against Yuri and the Olgovichi.

Because of this, Yuri Dolgoruky came to Kiev in 1150, since the people of Kiev did not want to fight for Izyaslav. But after a while they did not want Yuri, who was forced to leave Kiev. Vyacheslav wanted to sit on the prince's table, but the people of Kiev kicked him out too, directly declared that they wanted Izyaslav. Now the opinion of the community has changed: the city's militia supported Izyaslav in the war with the Suzdal people. After the death of Izyaslav, the townspeople elected his brother: "they put Rostislav Kiyane in Kiev."

City-states of Russia
Chalice of Yuri Dolgoruky. XII century. GMMK. Moscow

In 1157, Yuri Dolgoruky again came with a huge army from the Suzdal land. He not only fought against the hegemony of Kiev, but also wanted to sit on the "golden table" himself. In fact, Kiev was captured by the prince of a hostile and once subordinate volost. That is why Yuri places Suzdal residents as his "administrators" throughout the Kiev land. After the death of Yuri in the same year, the struggle against the invaders began: the Kievites beat and robbed his squad and the "citizens". Now the son of Yuri, Andrei Bogolyubsky (1111-1174), joined the fight against the hegemony of Kiev.

And the people of Kiev in 1169 signed an agreement - a "row" with the new prince Mstislav Rostislavovich, the same "row" was repeated in 1172.

This is how the formation of Kiev as a city-state took place. The same processes were going on in other cities of the "Russian land": Chernigov, Pereyaslavl, Vyshgorod. They actively fought against both the "older" city and the invasions of nomads. Chernigov stood out in the first half of the XNUMXth century, Vyshgorod, Pereslavl and Turov - in the XNUMXth century.

After several attempts, Andrei Bogolyubsky, the leader of the alliance of cities from Suzdal, Polotsk, Smolyan and Chernigov, took Kiev in 1169 and subjected it to a brutal plunder.


Cathedral of S. Boris and Gleb. XII century. Chernihiv

From that moment on, the weakened "capital city" begins to lose its significance as the "capital" of the super-union. Although the community continues to control the city, it is less and less interesting as a "table" and a place of "feeding" to the mighty princes of other volosts. At one time the table in Kiev was occupied by a prince from the insignificant Lutsk. And in 1203 the allies of Prince Rurik Rostislavovich (d. 1214), the Polovtsians, again defeated and plundered Kiev.

The struggle of Kiev for the former hegemony in Eastern Europe, the opposite desire of the emerging new centers of city-states in the northeast and west of Russia, the destructive actions of the princes seeking to control the golden Kiev table - all this extremely weakened the Kiev volost on the eve of the Mongol invasion.

North-East of Russia


Let us note several main points in the formation of a territorial community in this region.

First, the fight against the hegemony of Kiev was the most important for the Rostov land, which was a source of tribute for him.

Secondly, the formation of the land takes place through intensive colonization and the receipt of tribute from neighboring tribes.

Thirdly, as elsewhere, the "mezin" (junior) cities entered into a struggle with the old cities.

Initially, there was not even a prince in the Rostov land, it was ruled either by the governor from Novgorod, dependent on Kiev, or directly from Kiev. In the XI-XIII century. there is an active development of the territories of the northeast, gradually Rostov colonization is faced with the same movement from Novgorod, and this leads to wars over tribute. In 1136, under the leadership of Prince Vsevolod Mstislavovich, the Novgorodians fought with the Suzdal and Rostovites on Zhdanaya Gora. Despite the fact that the Rostov-Suzdal militia did not have a prince in this battle, they won. This victory became an important milestone in the struggle for independence. At the same time, in the course of the formation of city-states, the primacy from the main city of Rostov passes to Suzdal.

With the beginning of the XII century. the northeast is developing and strengthening economically, cities are being decorated. Vladimir Monomakh places his young son Yuri, the future Yuri Dolgoruky, in Suzdal as his governor. Upon the death of his father, Yuri becomes a full-fledged prince of the Rostov land. But within the framework of the princely ideas about the "golden table", he first tries to sit in Kiev, relying on the community of the Kiev suburb of Pereyaslavl, but after the failure he connects his future with the northeast. Moreover, the parish, in conditions when Kiev is trying to defend its rights to it, badly needed a military administration. And Kiev began a struggle with Rostov and Suzdal, relying on the support of Smolensk and Novgorod, with the aim of undermining the enemy's economy, totally destroying villages and fields. But the people of Suzdal, led by Yuri Vladimirovich, defeated the people of Kiev, Porshan and Pereyaslavl. Dolgoruky entered Kiev, but, not recognized by the Kievites, went back. The regiments of the Galician land entered the struggle for the "golden table". Finally, Yuri personally managed to sit down in Kiev for a very short time, appointing his governors here from Suzdal, as we wrote above. In the 40-50s. XII century. Suzdal and Galician lands achieved independence from Kiev and suffered devastating hostilities in the Dnieper region. Moreover, the prince of Suzdal was established in Kiev (for a short time). The hegemony of Kiev was undermined once and for all.

One cannot deny the role of princes as independent political objects, traditionally striving for the Kiev table, but the formation of city-states was the most important moment in the struggle that lasted two centuries. It was the volost militia, not without benefits for itself, that played the main role in this struggle.

It is a general historical fact that not only in Ancient Russia, but also among other peoples, a city-state was formed in the struggle against other city-states. So it was with Rome and in archaic Greece.

The formation of Rostov, Suzdal and “mezinny” Vladimir took place in a similar way. In 1157, after the death of Yuri Dolgoruky, the Suzdal people of the "belt" of Andrei Yuryevich put him on the table at the veche. It is important that Andrei abandoned the struggle for the distant Kiev table and took up the solution of the affairs of the Rostov land: campaigns for tribute to the Bulgar, to other border areas, the struggle for tribute with the Novgorodians, and, finally, again with Kiev. It was not the prince's desire to move to another, even a "golden table", but the task of crushing a hostile neighbor.

And in 1169 Kiev was taken and ruined: the townspeople were sold into slavery, churches and monasteries, like temples of an enemy community, were plundered. And Andrey, by right of the strong, appoints princes to the once "senior" table of Rus.


Our Lady of Vladimir. XII century. Vladimir. Tretyakov Gallery. Moscow

Historiographic tradition often defines Andrei Bogolyubsky almost as the first monarch who, long before the great Moscow princes, united Russia, created the "nobility" on the basis of the junior squad. This is definitely a very strong upgrade. There is no need to talk about the monarchy, or about any nobility in the conditions of the formation of a neighboring community and a classless society. Andrei was an outstanding warrior, like a true Christian, and his desire to “be on Suzdal,” instead of distant Kiev, is due to the fact that he was brought up in this land, which was native to him. It is precisely with his activities that the victory of North-Eastern Russia in the struggle with Kiev is connected, and the acquisition, in modern terms, of sovereignty.

It is obvious that strong princes contributed to the success of the community, both in the northeast and in other parts of Russia.


Assumption Cathedral. Vladimir. 1158-1160

After the death of Andrey in 1174, and there are many versions of this murder: from everyday life to sacred and political, the townspeople of the whole land gathered at a veche in Vladimir to elect a new prince to the table. At this veche of the whole earth, strife broke out between the city communities: Vladimir began a struggle with the elder Rostov.

The Rostovites contemptuously called the residents of Vladimir "our serfs, masons," which perfectly illustrates the relationship between senior and junior cities, subordinates and tributaries.

The princes Rostislavovichi, counting on tables in the Rostov-Suzdal land, moved to the northeast, without waiting for the decision of the veche. They were instructed to stop and wait for a decision in the southern border town of Rostov land - Moscow. Prince Mikhalko agreed with the residents of Vladimir and Pereyaslavl (Pereyaslavl Zalessky), and Yaropolk with Rostov. The appearance of their own princes in the younger cities did not suit the Rostovites, and they forced the community of Vladimir to confirm their subordinate status. And the brothers of Rostislavovich, headed by Yaropolk, grabbed hold of the rich tables, behaved "as usual", began to burden the townspeople with illegal extortions: fines and sales, taking away communal tributes in their favor. The two parties attended by the people of Vladimir did not give any sense, and then the third party summoned Mikhalko and Vsevolod Yuryevich to the table in Vladimir. Now the victory was on the side of Vladimir, small Moscow also joined him, and Rostov and Suzdal were forced to accept princes from the "little finger" Vladimir. The struggle for hegemony in the northeast of Russia continued after Mikhalko's death, and only Vsevolod, the son of Yuri Dolgoruky, remained on the table.

Vsevolod the Big Nest (1176–1212 - years of government) is associated with the further expansion of the Rostov land to the south, as well as the "appointment" of the prince from the city of Vladimir now in Novgorod. After his death in 1212, princes appeared in other city-states: in Rostov - Yuri, in Pereyaslavl - Yaroslav, in Vladimir the village of Constantine. And they all sat down at their tables in agreement with the veche.

From a scientific point of view, it is not necessary to speak about any monarchical tendencies, supposedly emanating from the peculiarities of the Rostov or Vladimir-Suzdal lands. Under the territorial-communal system, monarchy as an institution cannot exist, all the more it would be a big mistake to correlate all formidable or harsh rulers with this institution of government, which exists only in a class society. This territory, of course, developed in the general Russian way.

Because due to geographical reasons and migration-colonization at this stage of the territorial-communal formation, only the structure of the emerging city-state could provide adequate management of society.


Bibliography:
Shchaveleva N.I. Polish Latin-speaking medieval sources. M., 1990.
Titmar of Merseburg. Chronicles. Translation by I.V. Dyakonov, Moscow, 2005.
Dvornichenko A. Yu. Mirror and chimeras. About the origin of the ancient Russian state. SPb., 2012.
Kolobova K.M.The Revolution of Solon // Uchen. Zap. LSU. L., 1939 No. 39
Krivosheev Yu. V. Death of Andrey Bogolyubsky. SPb., 2003.
Frolov E. D. Paradoxes of history - paradoxes of antiquity. SPb., 2004.
Froyanov I. Ya. Dvornichenko A. Yu. City-states of Ancient Rus. L., 1988.
Froyanov I. Ya. Ancient Russia. Experience in researching the history of social and political struggle. M., St. Petersburg. 1995.
Froyanov I. Ya. Kievan Rus. L., 1990.
Froyanov I. Ya. Rebellious Novgorod. SPb., 1992.


To be continued ...
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Articles from this series:
Eastern Slavs - the beginning of history
What is Russia
Russia - the beginning of the state
Ancient Russia. New way
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  1. Deniska999
    Deniska999 26 May 2021 06: 03
    -3
    No Kievan Rus existed either as a "state" or as a "federation", just as there was no "feudal fragmentation" (due to the absence of feudal lords). Actually, the last conclusion was made at the end of the Soviet era, and research and statistical analysis of the remarkable scientist-archaeologist Andrei Kuza (killed in 1984) proved this.

    In a nutshell: Kuza was the first and last in Eurasian archeology / history to have guessed to bring all data on "Old Russian" (and not only) monuments (settlements and settlements) into a single database and put them on the map, adding data in the attached files about the results excavations. Immediately it came out that the chronicles are inadequate and "do not know" just heaps of settlements. But this is not so bad. It turned out that no noticeable property stratification was observed in the East Slavic settlements. It looked especially ridiculous in the example of Novgorod, where the average size of the estates (and, however, only about fifty of them were excavated) varied from 400-500 square meters to 1200-1600 square meters (but all estimates by eye). As a result, they had to admit that the size of the estates did not correspond to the "social status". Simply put, the Slavic colonization of Northern Eurasia for a long time - the first 250-350 years, at least - was egalitarian, and the abundance of lands and spaces led to the fact that even a poor person could afford to live in a huge - by European standards - yard.

    That is, all these "ancient principalities" of interplanetary "Piast-Rurikovich" drawn on the maps are going to the dump. Fortunately, some of them were invented just recently. For example, the Ryazan principality. According to the excavations of the Staroryazan expedition of the Institute of Archeology of the USSR Academy of Sciences under the leadership of Mongayt and Darkevich, it turned out that the city was young, did not exist for long (100-150 years) and in the format of a military fortress, where ... people from the Carpathian region lived (according to the peculiarities of the construction of courtyards, they established). No estates of the "feudal lords" were found (as well as the prince's palace, by the way), but the arrowheads of crossbows were found (according to the official history, they could not be there). Let us recall that until the end of the 1580th century it was considered seriously that Old Ryazan was destroyed during the raid of the Crimean Tatars in the XNUMXs.

    As for Andrey Kuza, I would like to note: archaeologists and historians still, despite the presence of computers and the simplicity of maintaining databases, shy away from compiling them like the devil with incense. With reference to the results of excavations and maps. Therefore, the picture looks sad (I quote Wikipedia):

    "A monograph prepared by A. V. Kuza about the small towns of ancient Russia and his catalog of ancient Russian settlements of the X-XIII centuries were published posthumously in 1989 and 1996, respectively. Despite the significantly expanded source base since then, A. V. Kuza's works on the degree of generalization and qualitative analysis have remained unsurpassed to date. "

    Do you understand, yes? The loner, who lived in the pre-computer era, managed to do more than all this pack of historians and archaeologists over the past 30 years, and his works published after his death (in tiny circulations, as it should be in Eurasia) - "have not been surpassed so far."
    1. Slavutich
      Slavutich 26 May 2021 06: 25
      +6
      Wikipedia went into action, just hold on.

      Good article! Thank!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 06: 43
        +14
        The point is not in Wikipedia, but in the fact that on the basis of a quotation pulled from one of its articles, an angry philippic is built, with obscure content.
      2. Deniska999
        Deniska999 26 May 2021 06: 48
        -1
        And what's wrong with Wikipedia? I myself wrote some of the articles there about the Roman emperors. These are hours of operation with a number of sources. But you, of course, do not understand this.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 26 May 2021 11: 31
          +11
          I myself wrote some of the articles there about the Roman emperors.

          Thanks for warning.
          1. Deniska999
            Deniska999 26 May 2021 12: 59
            -3
            You can not read, I do not force)
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 May 2021 13: 39
            +5
            These are the costs of any work on which there is no author's hallmark. This work of Stradivarius speaks for itself. And then for those who understand.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              26 May 2021 15: 56
              +5
              And then, if there is a "stigma")))
              On this score, there is a good detective story from the Soviet TV series Experts - "Podpasok with a cucumber"
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 26 May 2021 18: 38
                +2
                "Toulouse-Lautrec Lautrec or yours?" (c).
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 May 2021 20: 18
                  +4
                  "And was that Lautrec in Toulouse?" (FROM)
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 33
                    +2
                    All paths lead to Rome.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 26 May 2021 20: 40
                      +4
                      Uh-huh. And the gas pipelines to Novy Urengoy.
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 50
                        +3
                        It depends on which direction to go.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 21: 00
                        +4
                        'To the village, to my aunt,
                        Off the beaten path, to Saratov "(c)
                        "... I will never leave,
                        Let the thieves' hut be cold
                        Burn, burn my star! "(C)
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 May 2021 21: 28
                        +2
                        "Better, of course, five stars" (c).
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 21: 34
                        +3
                        Due to the fact that I can't afford cognac, let's stop at the hospitable business.
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 05
                        +2
                        The art of home brewing is taking on an unheard-of scope.
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 22: 08
                        +3
                        What to do?
                        "Entropy increases,
                        Alcohol rises in price "(C)
                      7. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 14
                        +1
                        "I am sitting, drinking tea with lemon" (c).
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 22: 33
                        +2
                        "It would be nice. Beer." (FROM)
                      9. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 47
                        +1
                        "Thrown into the river" (c).
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 22: 51
                        +2
                        You and I will soon come to interjections ...
                      11. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 55
                        +1
                        If only it was consonant.

                        “The heart asked: teach at least once.
                        I started with the alphabet: "Remember - Az".
                        And I hear: “Enough. Everything in the initial syllable.
                        And then an eternal, fluent retelling ”(c).
                      12. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 22: 59
                        +2
                        "The ensemble of Russian folk songs is required: uhari, tsokari, egegeyschiki" (C)
                      13. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 26 May 2021 23: 17
                        +1
                        "Ukhar-merchant, daring fellow" (c).
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 12: 56
    +7
    I myself wrote some of the articles there about the Roman emperors.

    Denis, I’m wondering: did you write about Heliogabalus? And about Vespasian? hi
    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 26 May 2021 12: 59
      +4
      Antoninus Pius, Claudius of Gothic, Septimia Sever, Domitian, Trebonian Gallus. What I remembered offhand
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 13: 03
        +5
        What I remembered offhand

        But! hi
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 26 May 2021 13: 00
    +5
    Quote: Deniska999
    I myself wrote some of the articles there about the Roman emperors.

    Here are the poor fellows, and this is after our Suetonius Tranquill walked on them ... laughing
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 13: 12
      +6
      Here are the poor fellows, and this is after our Suetonius Tranquill walked on them ...

      Long live Vespasian, who was the first to think of charging for toilets! fellow The heads of the water utility, Rospotrebnadzor and other environmental structures in general should erect a monument to him! laughing In a fold ... miraculous ... wink What about? "Arch of Vespasian" at the entrance to the White Island (that is, the central aeration station of St. Petersburg) - how do you like it, Sergei? good
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 26 May 2021 13: 17
        +6
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        The heads of the water utility, Rospotrebnadzor and other environmental structures in general should erect a monument to him

        I can assume, Nikolai, that his bust is definitely on the tables of these characters. laughing
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 13: 22
          +6
          I can assume, Nikolai, that his bust is definitely on the tables of these characters.

          I don't think they think about it ... what But than to hang portraits of political leaders, it is better to put up a bust of the ideological inspirer. laughing Leaders change, and the idea of ​​"obliging to shit for money" is imperishable! stop
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 26 May 2021 13: 51
            +9
            Nikolay, hello! hi
            I immediately remembered Leo Szilard's story "Central Station", where the aliens came to a complete shock from the idea of ​​earthlings to take money for natural departures.
            ... He claims that the inability to send natural needs,
            until the disc was sacrificed (at each departure), prompted the earthlings
            strive to purchase such discs, and the desire to purchase discs
            instructed them to participate in the joint work necessary to
            functioning of society.

            An excerpt from the story.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 14: 11
              +7
              where aliens came to a complete shock from the idea of ​​earthlings to take money for natural activities.

              Uncle Kostya, hello! You see ... What about sanitation in India? I have never been (and I don’t want to, to be honest), but, they say, it’s normal to do natural necessities in the middle of the street there. Therefore, the way would be better for Vespasian's fee, but on the other hand it is more cultured and hygienic.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 26 May 2021 14: 17
                +6
                Well, if it is impossible with humanity without a whip, then "where can the peasant go?" laughing
              2. bk0010
                bk0010 26 May 2021 18: 08
                +4
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                to satisfy natural needs in the middle of the street there is a norm of things
                I was there, I have not seen this. There are public toilets there, in which the sudras are trying to knock a coin off the visitors by serving a towel. Sleep on the street, yes. But I didn't see them to shit.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 May 2021 18: 30
                  +3
                  In which state, if not a secret?
                2. bk0010
                  bk0010 26 May 2021 21: 28
                  +2
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  In which state, if not a secret?
                  New Delhi - Jaipur - Agra, then Goa.
                3. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 May 2021 21: 30
                  +3
                  South Goa or North?
                4. bk0010
                  bk0010 26 May 2021 21: 44
                  +3
                  North, probably. I did not delve into it.
                5. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 26 May 2021 21: 57
                  +3
                  Okay. Let's leave. Indians don't really shit on the street. But the difference in living standards between social strata is horrible! Between the states, by the way, too.
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 27 May 2021 09: 23
            +1
            I was there, I have not seen this.

            Colleague, thanks for the clarification! I'll know! drinks
  • Deniska999
    Deniska999 26 May 2021 13: 17
    -2
    You can read at least one and suggest the best option, since you are such a specialist)
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 26 May 2021 13: 19
      +9
      Quote: Deniska999
      You can read at least one and suggest the best option, since you are such a specialist)

      Thank you, I prefer this source of information:
      1. Deniska999
        Deniska999 26 May 2021 13: 37
        +1
        History of the Augustus? In terms of reliability, it is worse than Suetonius. Read any monograph of antiquities on this source.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 26 May 2021 13: 53
          +7
          Quote: Deniska999
          History of the Augustus? In terms of reliability, it is worse than Suetonius.

          Controversial issue.
          But if something is more serious, then this:
          1. Deniska999
            Deniska999 26 May 2021 13: 59
            +2
            Marcellinus, of course, no problem, a classical historian, on an equal footing with Titus Livy and Appian. In addition, he is an eyewitness to the events described in the surviving books of his work. I regret that I was greedy to buy it ten years ago.
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 26 May 2021 14: 40
              +7
              Quote: Deniska999
              I regret that I was greedy to buy it ten years ago.

              Well, this is not a problem: on Ozone - 1300 rubles, 2005 edition, on Aliba - 700-900 rubles a classic building (brown) hi
              1. Deniska999
                Deniska999 26 May 2021 15: 31
                +1
                And now even more so, then I saw it for 400 rubles)
              2. Edward Vashchenko
                26 May 2021 20: 29
                +3
                Excuse me for the immodest question, did you write about some "emperors" in VIKI, but do you read Latin? ancient greek?
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          26 May 2021 20: 28
          +3
          That's why they say - Wikipedia - they mean amateurs!
          How, as without a detailed analysis of sources, knowledge of historiography, you can write articles in the "Encyclopedia"
  • ABC-schütze
    ABC-schütze 26 May 2021 13: 17
    +1
    The article is debatable. And, precisely for that, it is good ... The author writes: "Formation theory in the classical form was developed by historians in the USSR during the discussions at the end of the 20-30s, based on the developments of K. Marx and F. Engels.
    As for the attribution of the EARLY periods of Russian history to feudalism, the key factor here was the desire to show that Russia did not lag behind its neighbors in Europe and was on a par with them. "
    The fact is that, according to the "formation theory" of the classics, which has under itself a SCIENTIFIC basis, BASIC (which I emphasize specifically, - BASIC (and not the only possible), socio-ECONOMIC (that is, not just "social" ...) formations, according to historical MATERIALISM are as follows: "primitive communal, slaveholding, feudal, capitalist and communist formations (socialism is the first phase of development of the communist formation). Hence the question. If" before feudal "Russia, from Novgorod to Kiev," was not yet "feudal, in the understanding interpretation of the classics, then what was it? .. According to the formation theory of the classics, - "before the feudal", the slave-owning formation precedes it. So it was in the "communal-clan" and, or "communal-neighbor" structure of territorial economic division "before feudal "Russia? .. This is, as it were, only the first question ...
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      26 May 2021 16: 03
      +6
      Good afternoon,
      YOU did not read it very carefully, and the format of the article does not allow you to lay out all the vicissitudes of the development of this theory, it was within the framework of the formation theory that the pre-class period was determined and feudalism does not necessarily originate from it, maybe a slave-owning system. And this is already an axiom within the framework, of course, of the formation theory. But, I repeat, what was obvious in the scientific community already in the 60s and 90s was not conveyed to the general public, and Philosophical Dictionaries printed a "formational theory" of the 30s of the 20th century.
      1. ABC-schütze
        ABC-schütze 27 May 2021 11: 42
        -1
        Good day. Last night, after reading your answer, I "conceptually" expanded my previous commentary question. It turned out to be quite voluminous, but, unfortunately, "fell off" when sent. I will repeat it a little later. And now, also a question "in the subject." For my adequate understanding of the message of your article. regarding Yaroslav the Wise (this is the beginning of the 11th century, in my opinion). Academician Rybakov writes: "An employee of the Sofia Museum (this is Kiev) S. A. Vysotsky discovered in the cathedral a fresco with the inscription:" In the summer of 1054 (Rybakov translated into our l / calculus.) The Dormition of our Caesar ... " Konstantin Monomakh, the Caesar of Byzantium, died on June 11, and the discovered inscription speaks of February 20. This is the date of the death of Yaroslav the Wise. I remembered that already 80 years ago, the young scientist Priselkov made the PROPOSITION that Yaroslav The Wise received the title of Emperor. This assumption was greeted with distrust, and then simply forgotten. The inscription found in the St. Sophia Cathedral - yes, indeed, Yaroslav the Wise was called tsar, tsar. And his grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, from time to time, too They called him kings. It was written: "And they took him like a king, like a prince And his king." How does this message of Academician Rybakov correlate with the message of your article? .. Even, in general, the WHOLE CYCLE of your articles ... It is clear that in our time (and as a well-known character said: "not in our area ...)" emperors ", in their habitats, both African" bokas "and Ethiopian" silasies "can call themselves. But All the same, Kievan Rus under the emperor (tsar) Yaroslav the Wise, this is a slightly different level (of influence and power over the whole at that time" geopolitical space ") than the" imperial "peacock feathers of modern African characters ...
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          28 May 2021 16: 10
          0
          Good afternoon, I agree with you that Yaroslav the Wise is a different character than the one with peacock feathers, he is ours with "peacock feathers", this is a joke, since the "tufa" headdress of the Byzantine emperors was with peacock feathers , the famous column of Justinian (I wrote about it on VO) was married to such horsemen with peacock feathers on their heads. Well, or like Chingangchuk's. But I'm kidding.
          But seriously, what did A.E. Proselkov, and then B.A. Rybakov does not in any way negate the society that I have described. In previous articles, I pointed out that the adoption of a magnificent titularity by "barbarian kings" like Clovis or Theodoric, Vladimir Svyatoslavovich, "kagan" or Yaroslav the Wise, does not negate the fact that this society was pre-class, and its management was potent, although much resembled a state ... institutions.
          I’m about this.
          Since I have been in history for 30 years (my God!), Although I have never worked as a full-time historian, the studied material and knowledge of the source, including ethnographic material on African tribes laughing , inspired me to write this modest work in order to acquaint the reader with modern developments, although the key work on this topic came out when ... well, in general, in 1988.
          Best regards hi
    2. bk0010
      bk0010 26 May 2021 18: 12
      +1
      Quote: ABC-schütze
      According to the formation theory of the classics, - "before the feudal", the slave-owning formation precedes
      Slave - optional. According to the classics, one can jump straight from the primitive communal system into the bright future of almost all mankind - feudalism (the classics also had an Asian way of reproduction).
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 18: 39
        +2
        According to the classics, you can jump straight from the primitive communal system into a bright future.
        Uh-huh. "KAMAZ" is a good car, powerful, it walks fast along the tundra! Dogs just get tired quickly ... "
  • Bar1
    Bar1 26 May 2021 06: 26
    -15%
    Kiev is a mother i.e. feminine, although the city is masculine, and Lybid is masculine, although a woman.
    In the city of Kiev, there are no buildings older than the 18th century. There is no princely palace, there is no fortress / detinets. On what basis is this city of the 17th-18th centuries ranked among the ancient cities? Only on the basis of the annals? But these sources are highly controversial and dubious.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 26 May 2021 18: 45
      +3
      Quote: Bar1
      Kiev is a mother

      What did you eat today? Where do these hallucinations come from? wassat
      Kiev is a metropolis, literally translated from Greek - the mother city, the capital of the state.
      Quote: Bar1
      In the city of Kiev there are no buildings older than the 18th century, no princely palace, no fortress / detinets.

      Go teach materiel, Bar. You remind me of Sharikov so much that reading your comments, I feel like just Professor Preobrazhensky:
      You, Sharikov, are talking nonsense and the most outrageous thing is that you say it categorically and confidently.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 26 May 2021 20: 13
        -1
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        What did you eat today? Where do these hallucinations come from?
        Kiev is a metropolis, literally translated from Greek - the mother city, the capital of the state.


        Kiev, the mother of Russian cities, that is, the feminine kind, have you heard of this? What is he doing here?

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Go teach materiel, Bar. You remind me of Sharikov so much that reading your comments, I feel like just Professor Preobrazhensky:


        Of course, the Kiev Pechersk Lavra will lead, but this 18th century baroque style is not similar to the ancient style, and what your "historians" say about it, we will not believe it, now do not deceive.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 May 2021 21: 00
          +3
          Quote: Bar1
          Kiev, the mother of Russian cities, that is, the feminine kind, have you heard of this?

          I heard how. smile And I also heard that in addition to school history textbooks, there are more serious books ... smile
          And in these books they sometimes write strange, but entertaining things that are not in school textbooks. For example, that the "mother of cities" is a tracing paper from the Greek "metropolis", as the Greeks called Constantinople at that time. With his statement, Oleg announced his intention to build an empire-state capable of challenging the Roman empire. Therefore, the main temple is St. Sophia, and indeed in Kiev there are a lot of borrowings from Constantinople. In short, they were equal to the Greeks.
          And as for the ancient buildings - well, look for yourself ... You are such an inquisitive and corrosive researcher that you should succeed. laughing
          And the word "city", "city" in Russian has always been masculine. yes
  • Bar1
    Bar1 26 May 2021 06: 46
    -11%
    then Russia did not lag behind its neighbors in Europe and was on a par with them


    hygiene was not on a par: in Russia, people watched over the purity of the body, in Europe not, and until the 18th century.

    The name of the Polovtsians is a tracing-paper from the self-designation of this tribe - "balls" - yellow. It is not connected with the appearance of the Kipchaks, it was just that in the steppe it was customary to use the color scheme in the names of ethnic groups: White Hephthalites, Black Bulgarians, White Horde.


    what is it, where does this color differentiation come from, according to trousers, what did they distinguish between peoples? Historians, this idea of ​​yours is only good for science fiction films.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 26 May 2021 06: 47
    +10
    You see, yes?
    Yes, we understand. We understand that Andrei Vasilyevich would be very upset to learn that he is being opposed to the scientific community within which he worked.
  • Operator
    Operator 26 May 2021 10: 52
    -8
    Most domestic "historians" do not at all - they absolutely do not understand the state structure of the Russian Earth on the basis of ladder law (when, without exception, the state formation belonged to the house of Rurikovich with the principle of inheritance of appanage and capital principalities from the elder brother to the younger) and therefore try to pull an owl (Western European feudal relations in the form of vassalage with the principle of inheritance of each individual feud from father to eldest son) to the globe (Russian reality of the 9-13th centuries) bully

    The reason is as simple as a nail: the majority of Russian "historians" are graduates of pedagogical institutes with history teaching at the vocational school level.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 26 May 2021 11: 31
    +9
    Have you been hacked? Or did the Bar get bitten?
    You seem to have always had adequate comments.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 26 May 2021 16: 21
      +1
      "Bar bit" presented a picture: people are walking, and Bar is jumping and biting
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 26 May 2021 17: 27
        +3
        Better imagine the subsequent incubation period, and the unfortunate infected, fasting flags and maps of Great Tartary.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 27 May 2021 11: 08
          +1
          Quote: Engineer
          Better imagine the subsequent incubation period, and the unfortunate infected, fasting flags and maps of Great Tartary.

          Perhaps a good plot for a horror movie is emerging .. laughing
  • vladcub
    vladcub 26 May 2021 16: 17
    +4
    This is the first time I hear about such a scientist.
    I was amused that archaeologists and historians are afraid of the computer, probably all historians are ancient elders. They all sit and work by candlelight
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 26 May 2021 18: 32
    +2
    Something you got overexcited in the morning, my dear.
    Andrei Vasilievich Kuza - blood from blood and flesh from the flesh of Soviet science, no one denies his merits, just as no one denies the merits of other specialists - for example, Rybakov, Froyanov, Artsikhovsky, Kiprichnikov, Lebedev, Yanin ... , in their own way, they are unique. So your pathos is completely incomprehensible and unpleasant to me personally.
    Quote: Deniska999
    the annals are inadequate and "do not know" just heaps of settlements.

    In the annals, in your opinion, should all settlements be named? What are these - salary books or what? Chronicles are a sequential presentation of events, you know, events, and not a listing of settlements. So who is more adequate - you or the chronicles - the question still needs to be discussed.
    Quote: Deniska999
    in the East Slavic settlements, no noticeable property stratification was observed.

    What a twist! wassat
    Quote: Deniska999
    the size of the estates did not correspond to the "social status".

    And what size of estates would correspond to "social status"? Do not hesitate to name the numbers ... Hectare? Three? Five? And for an ordinary city craftsman - six acres? But the point is not even this, but the fact that these estates - you will not believe - were rebuilt, and those that are being excavated - in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, when social stratification was already so pronounced that ... I just don't know about you and to tell. Imagine that you have grown on your forehead ... a horn. That's the same.
    Quote: Deniska999
    all these "ancient principalities" of interplanetary "piast-Rurikovich" drawn on the maps are going to the dump.

    Well, yes, well, yes ... And where will you go, for example (the first thing that came to mind), the charter of Rostislav Smolensky from 1150?
    About Ryazan, you generally report some kind of game. Maybe you just forgot that Ryazan has been moved from place to place several times during its existence? In general, it would be interesting to familiarize yourself with the research materials to which you refer. Be so kind.
    Your praises to A.V. Kuze, perhaps, are fully deserved by this researcher, but for
    Quote: Deniska999
    managed to do more than all this bunch of historians and archaeologists over the past 30 years,

    I think he would be the first to twist his finger at your temple and advise you to take a sedative tablet instead of a cup of coffee (or a bottle of beer, I don't know what you have there) right in the morning.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 26 May 2021 06: 05
    +11
    Thank you for the article. Hold on to the author, you will get it. smile
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 26 May 2021 06: 55
      +8
      Edward certainly did not destroy the chapel. And the rest are just private opinions.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 07: 16
        +11
        He could have destroyed it, but Kirpichnikov did not allow him.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 26 May 2021 07: 34
          +8
          It's not bad when something is holding back. And everyone draws a picture of the world for himself, and then complements it.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 26 May 2021 07: 51
            +9
            And then the communal workers come and roll everything up with yellow paint. Well, purely Polovtsians!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 26 May 2021 08: 24
              +5
              And everything will happen again.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 26 May 2021 08: 30
                +6
                Exactly. Until the walls begin to fall apart under the weight of the paint.
            2. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 26 May 2021 10: 11
              +5
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              And then the communal workers come and roll everything up with yellow paint. Well, purely Polovtsians!

              Good afternoon Anton,
              The joke about the communal services Polovtsians was clearly a success, he laughed for a long time! wassat
              You can also do this: "Polovtsian communal services all roll up with ball paint"
              From
              The name of the Polovtsians is a tracing-paper from the self-designation of this tribe - "balls" - yellow.
              hi
              1. Edward Vashchenko
                26 May 2021 10: 28
                +11
                Good morning,
                ball paint is strong!
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov 26 May 2021 10: 43
                  +8
                  Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                  ball paint is strong!

                  Good afternoon Edward,
                  here the concept of housing and communal services problems going back into antiquity is directly drawn:
                  The Polovtsians are the communal services of Ancient Rus, periodically organizing raids on the kalits (wallets) of the ancient Rus by invoking unreasonably high bills for communal services. The defaulters' houses were "rolled up" with ball paint. Looking at the bills on birch bark for heating with wood, water from the river, for the overhaul of 200-year-old huts, etc., the ancient Russians scratched their beards and grumbled: "Look how the torches have risen in price, as much as 50%, but they promised only 4%" should we beat the Polovtsians? wassat
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 10: 59
                    +11
                    here the concept of housing and communal services problems going back into antiquity is directly drawn

                    Hmm .. Sergei, remember, in 2015 there was a scandal - did you find a disfigured bas-relief on Nevsky? Instead of a nymph, the people called the spoiled face, excuse me, "steppe woman" (no offense if you hurt someone!). On the left - a bas-relief on the other side of the building, on the right - its damaged "copy".

                    True, later, it seemed, it turned out that the bas-relief was damaged during the Soviet era - during the restoration of the building ...
                    The first large-scale restoration of residential buildings on Nevsky Prospekt took place in 1950. Sculptors, painters, historians, restorers worked on the restoration of iconic buildings. Residential buildings - former profitable ones - were put in order in the so-called economic way, that is, by the efforts of the ZhEK employees. According to the official conclusion of the KGIOP, Badaev's apartment building in the 1980s was not yet considered an architectural monument, so the face of the nymph was restored by non-professionals.
                    https://rg.ru/2015/11/18/reg-szfo/nimfa.html
                    But, apparently, this is also the work of the Polovtsians! wink And even the Pechenegs! drinks
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 26 May 2021 11: 29
                      +5
                      The nymph was very tired. Or took a walk as it should.
                    2. Edward Vashchenko
                      26 May 2021 11: 34
                      +8
                      "As I see it, said a modernist artist, moonlighting at the housing office."
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 11: 58
                        +7
                        As I see it, said a modernist artist, moonlighting in the housing office "

                        Edward, glad the article! The scandal first surfaced in 2015. They say that the building has been repaired since 2013, but the torquay hired by the specific prince-restorer and the berendeys who joined them SO restored the bas-relief that it began to resemble a nymph - a companion of Dionysus - after a five-day deep drinking binge in half with outrageous debauchery, as Sergei-Corsair aptly put it ... yes
                        But then, it seems, the performers fought off. Like, after the war (50-80s), the facades were restored, and the workers of an unknown family-tribe-haplogroup .. let's just say .. not particularly scrupulous about the appearance of the beauty! drinks
                    3. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 26 May 2021 12: 39
                      +5
                      Quote: Pane Kohanku
                      Therefore, the face of the nymph was restored by non-professionals.

                      Good afternoon Nikolai,
                      Yes, this is how the picture is seen:
                      a "sculptor" of a regional scale:
                      - Manya, take a break from beer for 5 minutes, I'll pose for me. wassat
                    4. Astra wild2
                      Astra wild2 26 May 2021 17: 19
                      +2
                      Tear off these "restorers" hands
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 17: 27
                        +2
                        Tear off these "restorers" hands

                        Don't find them already. It happened in the 80s, but only now it was noticed. At least that's what they say. Although God knows who is there and when it screwed up.
                  2. Edward Vashchenko
                    26 May 2021 11: 32
                    +5
                    Sergey greetings! hi
                    Of course of course,
                    but my association with collectors has drifted laughing
                    1. Mihaylov
                      Mihaylov 26 May 2021 15: 11
                      +3
                      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                      Sergey greetings!

                      Eduard, I almost forgot: on June 1, a temporary exhibition opens at the State Historical Museum: "Vikings - the Way to the East", there will be things from the Hermitage.
                      It would be nice to send someone a photo reportage to make hi
                      1. Edward Vashchenko
                        26 May 2021 15: 17
                        +4
                        Oops, cool, but I'm afraid they won't let you take pictures, it's always like this at exhibitions.
                      2. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 26 May 2021 15: 22
                        +3
                        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                        but I'm afraid they won't be allowed to take pictures, it's always like this at exhibitions

                        Now they seem to be allowed to take pictures, for a long time I have not come across a ban. With a flash, of course, you can't, and things are usually behind glass.
                        By the way, not so long ago, such a book came out, sold in the State Historical Museum:
                      3. Edward Vashchenko
                        26 May 2021 16: 21
                        +4
                        Well, I understood the task, visit the State Historical Museum)))) soldier
                      4. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 26 May 2021 16: 41
                        +2
                        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                        Well, I understood the task, visit the State Historical Museum))))

                        Or maybe it would be nice and an article from the series "What's new in the world of the Vikings" based on the exhibition, so to speak.
                        By the way, on May 21, the State Historical Museum opened an exhibition "The Iron Age", which was in the Hermitage, very good, Anton and I went to it. drinks
                      5. El Barto
                        El Barto 26 May 2021 19: 08
                        -1
                        And what could be new "in the world of the Vikings"? The latest news, which has not yet received development, is the burial on about. Saaremaa and Danish genetic studies of Viking remains.

                        Why is everyone so fond of the term "Vikings" and uses it everywhere from historical periodization to weapons science, and also stubbornly associates "Vikings" with Scandinavia? Why is it still talked about the "Viking Age"?

                        What is worth writing an article about is that it's time to say goodbye to the great Vikings.
                        Actually "Vikings" is a rather narrow phenomenon of pirates of the Baltic and North Seas of the 9-10th centuries. Moreover, the mixed ethnic composition, made up of representatives of all coastal lands, among which the Scandinavians did not exceed 10%.
                        Moreover, the so-called. "Vikings" played no role in Scandinavian history. In all the available texts of the sagas (in Danish-Norwegian, in Latin) the word "Viking" is mentioned exactly once and it is indistinct that something like "he was a bad man and a Vikingur in general" (if this is not a mistake at all). There is no such word in runic inscriptions. The Scandinavians called their hikes differently - "farding"
                        Where these "Vikings" were dug up at all in the 19th century is not clear.
                        So it's time to forget about the "Viking era" and talk about the "era of Scandinavian expansion"
                  3. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 26 May 2021 18: 47
                    +3
                    In the State Historical Museum they can!
        2. Richard
          Richard 26 May 2021 14: 24
          +4
          The name of the Polovtsians is a tracing-paper from the self-designation of this tribe - "balls" - yellow.

          Science does not know how the Polovtsians called themselves - there are no written data.
          But the concept of Polovtsy in Russia at that time was ubiquitous ... and by no means to a definition
          only this people.
          A similar expression "polovitsa" is used even in the Novgorod first chronicle of the older edition (in an article for 1219) in relation to the Novgorodians from the opposite bank of the Volkhov in the meaning of "bearers, people living on the other side of the river." (Link: Skrzhinskaya E. Ch. Polovtsi. Experience of the historical interpretation of the ethnikon // Byzantine time-book. T. 46. M., 1986. - S. 255-276.)
          E. Ch. Skrzhinskaya concludes that the "Polovtsi" of the Old Russian chronicles are the Cumans who were located in the Polovetsky field, that is, along the left bank of the Dnieper.
          1. Richard
            Richard 26 May 2021 14: 35
            +2
            I will return to "self-name" In many surviving Byzantine documents, this people are called Kumans (Kipchaks) and Kuns. Their ancestors - the Sars - lived on the territory of Altai and the eastern Tien Shan, but the state they formed was defeated by the Chinese in 630. The survivors went to the steppes of eastern Kazakhstan. There they received a new name "Kipchaks", which, according to legend, means "ill-fated" and as evidenced by medieval Arab-Persian sources.
            There are no problems with decoding this name.
            The word "kypchak" (qïvçaq) in the ancient Türkic language means unfortunate, although it consists of the root qïv (happiness; luck) and the affix çaq (affix of inclination to the base), which should give a word meaning “lucky, inclined to happiness”, and not happen from the words qïvsïz (unhappy) and çaq (period, time) link: Ancient Türkic dictionary. - Leningrad: Science, 1969.
            In many Turkic languages ​​(Tatar, Crimean Tatar) the word "Kipchak" means "wheel" or "chariot". Rifkat Akhmetyanov points out that, according to Zaki Validi, this word is formed either from the word "cuba" meaning dry steppe, Gobi; and indicates that the word could be formed from "kyv" or "kyvy" meaning empty, hollow. link: Әkhmәtyanov R.G. Tatar teleneң etymologist sүzlege: Ike tomda. ...
            According to another version, the ethnonym 'Kipchak' means - 'part of the Sakas, small Sakas'. reference: Muratov B. A., Suyunov R. R. Saki-Dinlins, Aors, Ashina and descendants of the Deshti-Kipchak clans
            According to researchers who consider the Kipchaks to be the descendants of the Dinlins, conquered by the Xiongnu tribes at the end of the 201st century BC. BC, the ethnonym "Kipchak" is mentioned in the Chinese chronicles in the form "kue-she" in 13 BC. e. and later in the form of "qincha" or "kin-cha" (wenyan 欽察). According to this opinion, "qincha" is the standard Chinese transcription of the 14-2th centuries. for the ethnonym "Kipchak". link: Khrapachevsky R.P. Polovtsi-Coons in the Volga-Ural interfluve. M., TSIVOI, T.18., S. 39, 40-XNUMX.
            Muratov B.A. Ethnogenesis of the Bashkirs: historiography and modern research. 1st volume, project "Suyun", 2nd edition, revised and enlarged. M.,
            Prince I. O. Russia and the steppe. - M .: Nauka, 1996 .-- 129
            1. Richard
              Richard 26 May 2021 14: 40
              +2
              The culture of the Polovtsians, like many other nomadic peoples, cannot boast of its wealth and diversity, but, nevertheless, it left its traces - the Polovtsian stone women. These women are perhaps the only cultural trace left by the Polovtsy in history.

              "Polovtsian women", like other stone women, are not necessarily images of women, there are many male faces among them. Even the very etymology of the word "baba" comes from the Türkic "balbal", which means "ancestor", "grandfather-father", and is associated with the worship of ancestors, and not at all with female beings. Although, according to another version, stone women are traces of matriarchy that has gone into the past, as well as the worship of the mother goddess among the Cumans (Umai), who personified the earthly principle. The only obligatory attribute is the hands folded on the stomach, holding the bowl for sacrifices, and the breast, which is also found in men, and is obviously associated with the feeding of the genus. According to the beliefs of the Polovtsians, who professed shamanism and Tengrianism (worship of the sky), the dead were endowed with a special power that allowed them to help their descendants. Therefore, a Polovtsian passing by had to bring a sacrifice to the statue (judging by the finds of animal bones at the base of the women, these were usually rams) in order to enlist its support.
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 26 May 2021 15: 06
                +2
                Quote: Richard
                The only required attribute is hands folded on the stomach

                What about your hair in pigtails? hi
              2. Richard
                Richard 26 May 2021 15: 24
                +2
                some Kursk, Donetsk and Chernukhin Polovtsian women have no braids




              3. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 26 May 2021 15: 26
                +3
                Quote: Richard
                there are no braids on the Kursk, Donetsk and Chernukhin Polovtsian women

                Well, probably not at all, I saw such in the State Historical Museum on Polovtsian women: pigtails in the back, quite clearly traced
              4. Richard
                Richard 26 May 2021 15: 30
                +2
                the vast majority of women have pigtails, but not all.
                However, hands folded on the stomach are inherent in absolutely everyone
              5. Richard
                Richard 26 May 2021 15: 54
                +2
                The name of the Polovtsians is a tracing-paper from the self-designation of this tribe - "balls" - yellow.

                Interesting fact
                In the Byzantine Small Chronicles VMH (Greek Βραχέα χρονικά), in the mention of the tactics of the Cumans, in addition to the usual "nomadic" tactics of sudden raids: ambushes, attacks by surprise on an unprepared enemy, there is a rather curious moment:
                Armed with bows and arrows, sabers and short spears, the Cumans rush into battle, galloping at the enemy with a bunch of arrows. They are "raiding" the unprotected villages, robbing and killing people, driving them into captivity. In addition to light cavalry, their strength is also in siege vehicles - heavy crossbows and collapsible horse-drawn catapults (Greek καταπέλτης) throwing "ignis-causando flavum fireballs" , in Seres * (lat. seres) since the time of life in Altai.

                note.
                * "ignis-causando flavum fireballs" - literal translation - causing fires yellow fireballs
                * The Romans and Byzantines called China and the Chinese Seres (lat. Seres), which means "silk" or "country of silk".

                Is it not from here that the legs of the famous Greek fire grow and the hypothesis about the "self-name" of this tribe - "balls" - yellow? repeat
              6. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 26 May 2021 16: 12
                +3
                Quote: Richard
                However, hands folded on the stomach are inherent in absolutely everyone

                You can’t argue wassat
              7. Richard
                Richard 26 May 2021 16: 16
                +4
                what an amazing state of preservation this Polovtsian woman smile
            2. Edward Vashchenko
              26 May 2021 16: 13
              +5
              The overwhelming majority of "women" have pigtails, wherever I go, where there are "women", I photograph them everywhere, in Berlin, in the Museum Island, there are a lot of high-quality "women", all with pigtails)))
            3. Richard
              Richard 26 May 2021 16: 27
              +3
              The overwhelming majority of women have pigtails, wherever I go, where there are women, I take pictures of them everywhere

              Good afternoon, edward hi
              What kind of directly ambiguous post you got. Thank God that they wrote "taking pictures", not "taking pictures", otherwise then there were no options at all smile drinks
              But seriously - thank you very much for the article. good
            4. Edward Vashchenko
              26 May 2021 16: 54
              +2
              Kind! Kind!
              wrote, and he doubted himself))) laughing
          2. ee2100
            ee2100 26 May 2021 19: 29
            +3
            Such pigtails
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 16: 11
      +3
      some Kursk, Donetsk and Chernukhin Polovtsian women have no braids

      Hmm .. this mustachioed "woman" is more like effigy, which especially for V.O. Shpakovsky was put "on the priest" laughing here is the reconstruction of the Polovtsian armor, Dmitry! drinks
    3. Richard
      Richard 26 May 2021 16: 43
      +2
      According to Anatoly Nikolaevich Kirpichnikov, most of the Polovtsians did not have any iron armor. There were quilted jackets and thick shirts from arrows and tangential blows. Where do the nomads have forges? But some of the armor and weapons fell to them. From the middle of the XNUMXth century, border Russian forges began to make steppe weapons for sale. In addition, the Cumans were rearmed by the peoples of the Caucasus, in particular the Alans. High-quality Byzantine weapons and armor came to the Polovtsian nobility in the form of tributes and gifts. But all this was of a fragmentary nature, the Cumans did not understand why armor was needed in a mobile battle. A certain amount of plate cavalry from among the leaders and elite guards did not affect the tactics of light combat, but took on a frontal blow from the enemy cavalry as part of the column
      Evolution of the Polovtsian warrior in the course of contact with the weapons of the West according to A.N. Kirpichnikov

      a photo Polovtsian saber of the XI century
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 26 May 2021 18: 52
      0
      Quote: Richard
      Where do the nomads have forges?

      They had forges, Dmitry ... It is not a great task, knowing how to do it, to build a forge of clay and sand. The blacksmith's tool and anvil can also be stolen from somewhere. But there could be a real shortage of raw materials for the forge.
    5. Operator
      Operator 26 May 2021 21: 22
      -5
      PTUshniki point-blank do not distinguish the armament of military commanders from the armament of the bulk of the fighters - from the word in any way (see the custom-made fantasy of the late Mishka Gorelik) laughing
      PS The Iron Age nomads had marching forges for repairs (forge welding, reforging and riveting) of metal parts of weapons and horse harness.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 26 May 2021 19: 15
    +3
    Science does not know how the Polovtsians called themselves - there are no written data.
    Once, at the beginning of the XNUMXs, I crossed the checkpoint of a plant (numbered, at the time of the collapse of the USSR) with a comrade in misfortune (in the sense of work). Comrade Tatar, with the patronymic "Irikovich", well, my father's name was Irik. At the checkpoint sat a grandmother, obviously an experienced "vohrovka", moreover, deaf. For a long time she tried to find out how his middle name was spelled correctly, until I barked: "Rurikovich - we are !!!" Grandma immediately issued a pass!
    1. Richard
      Richard 26 May 2021 19: 40
      +2
      Hello Anton hi
      In the Galicia-Volyn Chronicle (Ipatiev list, 13th century), the Polovtsian Khan Atrak is registered as Otrok.
      Not otherwise, it happened to him in the likeness of the story you described smile
      Chronicler: Your name, patronymic?
      Khan: Atrak Sharukanovich
      Chronicler: Boy?
      Han: Atrak!
      Chronicler: That's what I say - Otrok
      Khan: Write whatever you want, got it, damn it
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 19: 48
        +2
        Like that. Grandmother then bowed for a long time and crossed herself after.
        My compliments, Dmitry! hi
  • ee2100
    ee2100 26 May 2021 19: 20
    +3
    st. Viru building 2, now there is a restaurant.
    1. Richard
      Richard 26 May 2021 19: 56
      +2
      Sasha, thank you very much for the detailed explanations about the Tallinn house of Delagardie and for his photo
      However, the descendants of the famous field marshal lived not richly
      with respect
      Dmitriy
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 26 May 2021 19: 58
        +2
        This is not his photo. This is a photo of the only medieval house on this street.
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 26 May 2021 20: 08
        +2
        While checking around the house of De la Gardie or De La Gardie, I found that he is in the book of 200 of the most famous Finns! How!
        And all because he commanded detachments from the Finns, during the turmoil in Russia and had land on the territory of modern Finland, and then, after his death, his wife built a settlement, later it became a city.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 26 May 2021 10: 30
    +6
    Sergei! hi
    But this is really a problem for our city. Artists paint, try, and then the Kyrgyz come from the housing and communal services and roll everything up with rollers. Cultural, damn it, the capital!
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov 26 May 2021 10: 34
      +6
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Artists paint, try, and then the Kyrgyz come from housing and communal services and roll everything up.

      I agree that sometimes there are very high-quality drawings, sometimes even masterpieces. hi
      Cultural, damn it, the capital!

      And also - it's cold, damn it! wassat
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 20: 11
        +3
        Well, I'm sorry. We chose it ourselves.
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 27 May 2021 11: 11
          +1
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Well, I'm sorry. We chose it ourselves.

          But in our part of the Leningrad region the largest number of sunny days per year (according to statistics, if she does not lie, and statistics always lie) wassat
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      26 May 2021 11: 38
      +8
      Anton! greetings!
      I think the Kyrgyz restorers are working with a roller not only in St. Petersburg, but it is especially offensive for St. Petersburg.

      In Nizhny Novgorod, whole streets under the ice rink in the center, where there were Russian buildings of the 19th century, yes, not masterpieces of architecture, but a real archetype, reflecting the spirit of history ... but alas

      Yes that Nizhny Novgorod, in Moscow monuments of architecture, such as "Voentorg", are being felled to make an underground parking, like Resin and Luzhkov did not destroy the Kremlin, to make it out of more modern materials, with underground parking around the entire perimeter and a shopping and entertainment center
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 11: 48
        +6
        to be made from more modern materials, with underground parking around the perimeter and a shopping and entertainment center

        And in Pskov in October last year, next to the Pokrovskaya Tower and the double Church of the Intercession-from-Proloma, a monument was opened to the glorious defender of architecture - Savva Yamshchikov.

        In the afternoon it was installed, and that evening we, having arrived in Pskov from the Pushkin Hills, suddenly discovered it for ourselves.
        Savva himself was buried at the church on the hillfort opposite Trigorskoe. Here's the question ... I was at the same settlement the day before! Why didn't I pay attention to his grave ?! But there was a great Man! soldier
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          26 May 2021 12: 12
          +7
          But there was a great Man!

          I totally agree, sorry left early
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 12: 35
            +4
            I totally agree, sorry left early

            A monument to him was erected in a very good place. Near the Great flows. Historically, there was the very "Batoriev break" nearby that the clerics did with the Magyars in 1581. hi
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 13: 04
        +4
        Hello Edward!
        Thank you for the article!
        whole streets for a skating rink in the center
        Kyrgyz on skating rinks are powerful! Attila is crying with envy!
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          26 May 2021 13: 13
          +6
          Thank you!
          Yes, skating rinks, centers are expensive now
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 26 May 2021 14: 06
        +5
        Good laziness, Edward! smile
        how Resin and Luzhkov did not destroy the Kremlin in order to make it out of more modern materials, with an underground

        Yes, there is something to be surprised about. But we, unfortunately, have always treated the monuments of antiquity in this way, I remember when the nightmare of the "Palace of Congresses" was built in the Kremlin, the Muscovites (then they were still in Moscow) immediately called him "the dandy among the boyars", and Kalininsky Prospect, laid along the destroyed Arbat, was renamed "Khrushchatyk", everything seemed to be humorous, but there were also stronger statements about the historical appearance of the city.
        And now ... Now Moscow is no longer there, at least the one that I knew, and there are almost no Muscovites left. request
        And thank you for the article, even without being in the subject, it is still fascinating to read. good drinks
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 26 May 2021 14: 33
          +7
          Hi Konstantin!
          There is a metropolis and there are its current inhabitants.

          Unfortunately, that city no longer exists, Muscovites sometimes come across. Rarely. wink In principle, there were many visitors before, but ..... Those newcomers were compatriots and they became Muscovites. These ?????
          By the way, the information flashed that in the elections of the * mayor * persons with a temporary registration for more than 3 months will be able to participate. Well, for whom * will the narrow-film workers * of the Housing Estate * vote * ?!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 26 May 2021 14: 35
            +3
            Do you have a machine gun?
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 26 May 2021 14: 44
            +3
            I myself know that things are bad, but ...

            I'll think of something. laughing
          3. Catfish
            Catfish 26 May 2021 14: 51
            +3
            Call the guys, they say they still have a "Newbie", maybe they will share, fellow countrymen all the same.
          4. Phil77
            Phil77 26 May 2021 15: 20
            +4
            Duck ... they are out of range! request Both two.
          5. Catfish
            Catfish 26 May 2021 15: 42
            +5
            Return from Belarus, look for Trubnaya in the pub, one of them has all the ancestors of the Moscow Tatars, they eat and drink pork everything.
          6. Phil77
            Phil77 26 May 2021 16: 07
            +6
            Dear friend! Beer house on Trubnaya? Today? Still there? I can imagine what the prices are! But once it was like that.
          7. Catfish
            Catfish 26 May 2021 17: 52
            +2

            Along the lane to the left into the bakery yard and ... The meeting place cannot be changed! drinks drinks drinks
          8. Phil77
            Phil77 26 May 2021 18: 12
            +4
            At that time, I was more interested in the corner grocery store! Where they sold wonderful milkshakes. And a glass - * cheburek *, in the place of which * otrokhal * House, be it wrong, Politprosvescheniya! bully Chebureks were there ... Oh, oh, oh, oh! Delicious! They were also good at Avtozavodskaya.
          9. Catfish
            Catfish 26 May 2021 18: 21
            +3
            Chebureks were there ...

            Yes, the pasties were what they needed, they brought the rest with them. wink
            And I remember milkshakes in the corner from childhood, they were always there.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 15: 00
    +5
    Kind laziness

    Sounds like a slogan! good But I will only drink on Saturday! drinks
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 26 May 2021 15: 09
      +2
      Wow, but I didn’t notice. laughing Typo by Freud. drinks
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 15: 16
      +4
      Typo by Freud.

      Accurate, amazing, sincere phrase!drinks Straight balm-magnesia in golden letters with an entry into history! good
  • Edward Vashchenko
    26 May 2021 15: 19
    +6
    Greetings !!!!
    I agree, the "Palace of Congresses" - somehow ... not ...
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 06: 53
    +5
    A kaleidoscope of events over a fair length.
    Most of all hurt - usury with a rate of 50 percent, and the subsequent falling into servitude.
  • Boris55
    Boris55 26 May 2021 07: 58
    -8
    Quote: Vashchenko E
    From the end of the XI to the beginning of the XIV century in Russia, while observing the unity of language, faith, memory of the unity of the whole land, as the patrimony of the Rurikovichs, the processes of federalization or division of the country took place. They were caused by the emergence and development of a territorial community, in which each city of Russia perceived its neighbors as another “state”. Within the framework of the structure of the territorial community, it could not be otherwise.

    There was a process of forcible implantation of Christianity. The faith of the ancestors was replaced by the faith of the overseas. The conquest by the mind did not take place at the same time throughout Russia. There was a time when in some cities the faith was old, in others it was new. The so-called "internecine wars" were wars between the adherents of the new and the old faith. (A. Nevsky spoke out against the new faith, against carrying the cross.) The newcomers who are indifferent to the aborigines living on this earth came to replace their managers. (The sheriff's Indians do not care about the problems of the Indians) The imposition of slavery began, later referred to as serfdom.


    ps
    The Orthodox who lived in Russia before Christianity glorified the rule and did not intend to glorify Christ. Subsequently, Christianity "put on the clothes" of Orthodoxy, changing its essence.
    1. Artyom Karagodin
      Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 09: 12
      +7
      Oh, here already from the Kanatchikovaya dacha people have pulled themselves up laughing
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 26 May 2021 09: 19
        +9
        "As foretold by the saints, everything hangs in the balance,
        I look at this case, in the old Russian melancholy "(C)
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 26 May 2021 10: 09
          -7
          The old concept of the life of society was replaced by a new one - the Biblical one. The Magi had nothing to oppose to her, and therefore then the enslaving Biblical concept won. Today we have something to oppose to it - this is the Concept of Public Safety - KOB.

          Even after a thousand years, in the Christian faith alone, the change of Orthodoxy to Catholicism in Ukraine is met with rejection by the Orthodox, but what can we say about when the faith has changed dramatically.
          1. Artyom Karagodin
            Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 13: 46
            +2
            To neighbors in the country (which one - see above) - hello and wishes for a speedy recovery laughing
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 26 May 2021 11: 31
          +2
          “And not a church, and not a tavern,
          And nothing is sacred ”(c).
  • BAI
    BAI 26 May 2021 08: 38
    0
    which led to a severe lag behind most Western European countries and entirely new countries such as the USA

    Religion. Not a single Orthodox state has made notable advances in technology, science and economics.
    1. Artyom Karagodin
      Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 09: 24
      +3
      Excluding the same Byzantium, from where the Europeans drew ideas almost until its fall. And Russia, apparently, is not an Orthodox state in your country.
      1. BAI
        BAI 26 May 2021 13: 01
        +3
        And what successes has Orthodox Russia achieved? Under the tsars, they lagged behind, after the USSR, they live on the backlog created by the atheistic USSR. And more and more confidently it lags behind the developed countries in terms of economy.
        We look at the cursed VIKI:
        The period from 2000 to 2018. Economic growth rates.
        Russia is in the second half of the list, after Ethiopia, Rwanda, Lebanon, etc.
        They can, of course, say that it is higher than in Germany, but Germany has such a reserve that it will take a long time to catch up, and it is necessary to be equal to the leaders, not outsiders. God bless her, Equatorial Guinea with 10998%. At least China since 2162. Russia has 241.
        1. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 13: 45
          0
          I mean that we are a country and a people formed by Orthodoxy. Even the very desire for justice, on which the Bolsheviks came to power, is a consequence of the centuries-old influence of Orthodoxy. And even in the most communist times, our values ​​were precisely Orthodox values, excluding atheism, of course. Let us recall the "Moral Code of the Builder of Communism". Downright Orthodoxy only without God.

          In short, you need to dig deeper before making such categorical conclusions.
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            26 May 2021 15: 25
            +3
            Friends, I will intervene in your dispute.
            In polemical fervor, one can accuse anyone and anyone of backwardness.
            But, as it seems to me, of course Orthodoxy has played a major role in the development of the country. And it is precisely understanding, positive and negative, that is an important aspect of historical progress.
            Monarchy - at the stage of the emergence of class relations in Rusia (Russia) - is an advanced phenomenon, in 1917, regressive. The Bolshevik Communist Party was progressive and revolutionary in 1917, passive and disunited in 1990, and so on.
            1. Artyom Karagodin
              Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 16: 10
              +2
              Thank you very much, Edward! Both for the publication and for the comment. But I think we argued a little about something else.

              I just wanted to argue to my opponent that Orthodoxy is not an indicator of progress / regression, religion and progress in this case are not connected in any way. This is a purely mental question, even with the state structure it is only partly connected. And, as you rightly noted, Orthodoxy has played a positive role in the history of Russia, has formed our cultural code, if you will. This is what I pointed out. In my opinion, Orthodoxy will play a positive role in the future, because the current crisis of faith, including, alas, within the Church itself, is a temporary phenomenon. This happened periodically in all countries, and not only Orthodox.

              The "progressive" West at one time learned a lot from both Orthodox Byzantium and the Islamic East, which were intellectually and technologically superior to medieval Europeans, especially at an early stage. Europe learned the same Aristotle at one time thanks to the Arabs, if my memory serves me right. And the works of Ibn Sina (and not only his one) became textbooks for medieval European doctors. Although now the priority in technological and economic terms belongs to the West. But is it forever? Or will we repeat after Posner his not the smartest reasoning?

              As for the monarchy and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, then, in my opinion, this is a separate topic, in no way connected with the dispute. So is class theory.
              1. Edward Vashchenko
                26 May 2021 16: 19
                +2
                Thanks Artem!
                I completely agree with your conclusions about the formation of mentality.
              2. BAI
                BAI 26 May 2021 16: 56
                0
                progressive "West at one time learned a lot from Orthodox Byzantium

                For example: ..... ? What have you learned? What did Byzantium achieve (which grew out of the pagan Roman Empire, which was a world leader in military affairs, economics, and science), what became a model for all peoples, world science, etc.? She used the legacy of Rome. And that's all.
                1. Artyom Karagodin
                  Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 17: 01
                  0
                  For example, Europeans learned to shoot from crossbows, use an astrolabe and a compass, wash in hot baths from the Arabs. Algebra is again an invention of the Arabs, although the Byzantine scientist Lev the Mathematician was the first to apply the algebraic principle of replacing unknown numbers with letter symbols. Venetian glass is a technology of Byzantine masters stolen in 1204 (or a little later, but after the conquest of Constantinople by the crusaders). Europe received a lot of knowledge on mechanics from the same Byzantines. Even then, multi-storey buildings were being built there, in which there were even elevators. For example, there was a decree of one of the emperors forbidding the construction of buildings higher than 10 floors. Diplomacy in the modern sense and economics first appeared in Byzantium. What is there to argue for a long time, when the first university in Constantinople appeared in the 8th century. True, then it faded away, and was restored already in the XNUMXth century, maybe earlier, I don't remember already.

                  Many of the works of ancient authors came down precisely in the correspondence of the Byzantine period. Although directly to Europe they were brought by the Arabs, who translated the same Aristotle and Plato from Greek into Arabic. And directly in Greek in the Caliphate they read well.

                  The list goes on and on. Read historians.
                  1. BAI
                    BAI 26 May 2021 22: 14
                    0
                    again invention of the Arabs

                    We're talking about Byzantium. And here are the Arabs? They are Muslims, not Orthodox.
                    What is there to argue for a long time, when the first university in Constantinople appeared in the XNUMXth century

                    And it is useful to reason.
                    Modeled on the Roman athenaeus Emperor Theodosius II in 425 established athenae in Constantinople (Constantinople athenae, modernized names are also adopted in historical literature: Constantinople High School, High School in Constantinople, University of Constantinople).

                    Again the legacy of Rome.
                    And in China, the first educational institutions (2 pieces) for the training of government officials and scientists were created in 372:
                    1. Artyom Karagodin
                      Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 22: 37
                      -1
                      Reasoning is useful, but it is better to read books before that. And then you don't have to copy the very first sentences from the Wikipedia article, and then write nonsense.

                      Of course, the Romean (that is, the Roman) Empire was a direct continuation of Rome, therefore it used the heritage of Rome, and he, in turn, took a lot from Greece, to some extent - from Egypt, other Hellenistic states, and the same Carthage to some extent.

                      Further. My mistake is that I started with the Arabs, I just wanted to show that Islamic countries are now also not among the technological elite, although there was a time when Europe learned from them. It was necessary to take into account that you either are not able to build such logical chains, or do not have such a goal. The important thing is not to learn something, but to argue. But after all, in addition to Arab inventions, my message lists what was done by Byzantine scientists, a small part of it. Why are you missing this?

                      And finally, I repeat again: read more books. One cannot study history on publications with "VO".
                    2. Artyom Karagodin
                      Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 22: 49
                      -1
                      Yes, and about China. I do not deny that China has been a highly developed power for a long time. Strictly speaking, centuries of commercials up to 18-19. Then he began to lag behind, now he is reviving. But this has nothing to do with our dispute. Don't sidetrack.
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 26 May 2021 17: 38
          -1
          "It is necessary to equalize with the leaders, not outsiders" I don’t understand something: Germany is an outsider or a leader?
          How to understand these words: "higher than in Germany, but Germany has such an impact that it will take a long time to catch up"? I can't understand the logic
          1. BAI
            BAI 26 May 2021 22: 30
            +1
            In terms of growth, Germany is an outsider. But it has such a level of development that in order to improve it, it needs to make much greater efforts than the underdeveloped countries. Equatorial Guinea in 2000 - nobody. Therefore, if someone accidentally added even a small amount there, this is already a leap. And if a well was drilled, then immediately an unprecedented growth. It is more difficult for developed countries to achieve high growth rates because they are close to the limit of development, so a high level of economy, which we will not reach in our lifetime, complicates growth (it is easy to make three rubles out of a ruble. But try to make 100 billion out of 300 billion, there is no market for turnover). Even the task of catching up with Portugal is no longer worth it. Germany is an outsider because other countries with a similar level of development (USA, Japan) have higher growth rates than Germany. She, so to speak, can, but does not want to. Has the right not to overstrain. And Russia is a backward country, whether you like it or not. It is a fact. To catch up with the developed countries, it is necessary to develop at a faster pace, like China. And we do not have this, even in comparison with African countries, where conditions for development are worse than for Russia.
  • Operator
    Operator 26 May 2021 10: 03
    -2
    The Tatars are described in The Secret History of the Mongols as neighbors of the Mongols on the territory of the future Inner Mongolia. Tatars of Inner Mongolia. - these are the mestizos of the Asian Ugric Finns (N1a1), the Black Sea Aryans (R1a-Z93) and the Mongol proper (C2)

    PS "Neighborly-territorial community" - suggests laughing
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 26 May 2021 11: 09
    +8
    It looks like I'm on time. Judging by the numerous comments, the Sabbath has just begun. Blood, virgins have not yet drunk ?. laughing
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 11: 19
      +9
      Haven't you drunk the blood of virgins yet?

      No, so far only the coffee has been driven. wink Greetings! drinks
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 26 May 2021 11: 22
        +7
        hi Here's how, it seems that everything is ahead .. drinks Not all nonsense is written.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 12: 18
          +5
          Not all nonsense is written.

          We can also rewrite the "true story of Erzhebet Bathory". wink By the way, in Hungary there is some stubborn "historian" who is trying to prove that the story of the "bloody countess" is pure fraud and lies, they say, they tried to get rid of it. Even the film has already been shot! drinks
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 26 May 2021 11: 31
      +5
      “They decided to suck blood to wait.
      Delicious - on the third "(c).
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 26 May 2021 11: 55
    +5
    Greetings, colleagues. smile hi A good company has gathered today. smile
    I don’t know if I will be able to clearly comment on good, although, in my opinion, disputable material, but I will try. Hands are already itching to rush into a fight, but, unfortunately, there is no time. request
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 26 May 2021 12: 01
      +6
      Hands are already itching to rush into a fight, but, unfortunately, there is no time.

      I translate: "Uuhhh, we would give them if they caught up with us!" laughing Mikhail, a friendly joke! We will be happy to wait for your free time! drinks
      1. Richard
        Richard 26 May 2021 17: 09
        +2
        Trilobite Master (Michael): good, although, in my opinion, and controversial material. Hands are already itching to rush into a fight, but, unfortunately, there is no time.

        Greetings, Misha hi
        Likewise. - there is a lot of work on the local area, but at least it's easier for me - a private house and I can periodically smoke at the computer
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 May 2021 18: 57
          +2
          Hello, Dim.
          Today I had to wander around the city. On the road, I can only look from the phone to read who is writing what. Here, I returned. smile
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 26 May 2021 19: 28
          +3
          I would like to say a few words about the article itself.
          Thanks to the author, of course, as always - he expressed interesting thoughts and gathered a good company.
          But the breadth of coverage of the problem that Edward is showing me, or rather, some almost stratospheric height from which he looks at the history of Russia, frightens me somewhat. I'm getting lost. I can't keep up with the flight of the author's thoughts. With the early Slavs, everything was more or less normal, now, when we entered my favorite period, some of its generalizations seem to me somewhat hasty.
          For example, veche. An organ of people's self-government, and a direct one. But can we equate any crowd with the veche, who gathered under the shouts of the cheerleader for a momentary solution to some issue (most often to kill or rob someone)?
          Kiev - veche? Vseslav of Polotsk was dragged out of the blockhouse and seated on the grand ducal table - a political decision. But the decision of a veche gathering or a violent crowd is the question.
          In Novgorod, the Veche was, of course. There was a veche bell (or a beat, a tambourine, it doesn't matter), a veche headman, some kind of call-ups, whoopers, someone else, I don't remember. In Novgorod it was, albeit a spontaneous, but organized structure.
          In Rostov, too, the bishop was killed in a crowd, and in general, they periodically raged him. Some call this buzu veche. Is it so?
          Murder of Shchelkan (Cholkhan) in Tver in 1328 - veche? Or was it just that the people were brutalized and killed the Horde for their insolence and arrogance?
          And maybe then the Moscow riots of the XNUMXth century. - also veche?
          Or here's the question of whether there was a state in Russia and when it was formed. What is "state"?
          Legally - the territory. With borders, population, sovereign power, administration, coercive forces and taxes. I don't seem to have forgotten anything. Everything is simple here - you look at the territory and determine whether it has all the signs. If there is, then the state. The Old Russian state corresponds to this concept at least since the time of Princess Olga - her famous "graveyards and tributes".
          From the point of view of a historian, the concept of "state" is probably defined somehow differently, and it seems to me that the generic concept for the state is not "territory", but something else, some form of power, or something ... That is, definitions should sound like this: the state is a form of power in which ... and further on, distinctive features.
          There is no way for me to grasp the fine line that Edward draws between the territorial community and the state.
          Colleagues, can someone explain?
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 26 May 2021 19: 57
            +3
            Good evening, Mikhail!
            Today I agree with you, the line is very thin and historians define this feature strictly collegially. We decided that these were not state entities and that was all.
            It's very difficult about the veche. Edward promised, in the previous comments to his early article, to tell in more detail, but I still did not understand where the crowd was, and where the veche came together.
            1. El Barto
              El Barto 27 May 2021 02: 14
              +2
              An organized crowd and a formal veche gathering have little difference. It's like a general gathering (meeting) of residents of the N-volost can be regular and extraordinary, gathered at the initiative of the residents themselves. And they can quite legally expel the head of the N village council or solve some other fateful issues.
              Another question is that the power of the veche in the cities was not an expression of the will of the entire population of the volost. Tk in the cities lived only the aristocracy (communal-clan boyars, and the military - the princely court / squad) and "representatives of the common people" there were only their assistants / junior community members and other clientele.
          2. El Barto
            El Barto 27 May 2021 01: 59
            +2
            This issue has already been discussed in the comments to the previous article. In short: there is no single and final definition of the state in science (primarily in legal science). There are some concepts and generally recognized features of the state. Nevertheless, if some structure has these features, it does not yet mean 100% that this structure is a state (but if there are no such features, then it is definitely not a state).
            The author proceeds from the concept that the state in the modern sense exists only in socio-economic formations based on the class division of society (primarily as an instrument of class suppression). In a classless society, social structures can have all the basic features of a state, but they do not fulfill all of its functions, and therefore cannot be recognized as a full-fledged state. These are proto-state formations (or as the author calls them "potestary").
            In general, these are questions rather from the field of philosophy and theory of state and law.
            From a historical point of view, the issue of the emergence of a class society from a communal formation is considered here.
          3. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 27 May 2021 11: 02
            +1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            The Old Russian state corresponds to this concept at least since the time of Princess Olga - her famous "graveyards and tributes".

            Good afternoon Mikhail,
            here is a serious question: is it possible to interpret churchyards and tributes as evidence of the administrative structure exactly state?
            and what exactly is the churchyard that Olga set up? hi
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 27 May 2021 12: 21
              +1
              I think it is quite possible to interpret the graveyards as administrative centers, in which representatives of the princely power were constantly located, in fact, exercising this power on the ground. And tributes are like fixed taxes, in contrast to the archaic polyudy.
              If we proceed from the definition of the state, which I am used to using (it is higher), that is, through the generic concept of "territory", then quite a state is obtained.
              But this interpretation, of course, can be challenged.
              We can only judge what "graveyards" are based on the available data of a later time, but it is not at all a fact that they had the same functions in Olga's time and that such an extrapolation would be correct. Personally, my opinion is - yes, in the time of Olga, in addition to purely fiscal functions, judicial and administrative functions were also assigned to the churchyards, at least some of them. Any minor boundary disputes within the territory of the churchyard itself, for example ...
              Why do I think so? I do not know. I imagine a certain territory on which there are several villages, each with its own headman, he is probably the head of the clan. And these elders are told: "Bring tribute in such and such an amount here and there and give it to this person. He here, according to the prince's word, represents the prince himself." Will men complain to such a person about anything? Yes, certainly. "They took three heaps from a neighboring village and cleaned the heaps of the river." In the old days, they would have taken the stakes and went to sort it out. And here now the tiun is sitting, the prince is a man - it's easier to complain. Although, as anyone, of course, but if you go with the stakes, and someone will be killed there, the tiun will certainly intervene: if people are interrupted, who will give tribute?
              Something like that, in general. smile
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 27 May 2021 12: 50
                +1
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                We can only judge what "graveyards" are based on the available data of a later time, but it is not at all a fact that they had the same functions in Olga's time and that such an extrapolation would be correct.

                This is exactly what I wanted to say. We do not know what the churchyard of "Olga's time" was, and most likely it is unlikely at this time an administrative-territorial unit, as we know it at a later time.
                What PVL actually tells us:
                And put a heavy tribute on her, and two parts go to Kiev, and the third - to Vyshegorod to Olza; be bo Vyshegorod Olzhin city. And Olga's idea of ​​the Derevskaya land with his son and his squad, setting regulations and lessons, and the essence of her encampment and her catch. And I will come to my city of Kiev with my son Svyatoslav and, having stayed one summer, in the summer of 6455, Olga will go to Novgorod. And statute churchyards and tribute along Msta, and churchyards and tribute and dues along Luza; and her catches are all over the earth, and signs and places and graveyards

                Pogost, apparently, is the same root with the word guest, to stay, hotel, and in this case, most likely, its original meaning is used - "place of guest", that is, temporary stay. Close to him the term in Old Russian - stan. What we actually see: "and the essence of her camp" and further "and her catch."
                That is, we are talking about some places of temporary stay and fishing (that is, hunting places). What was it? serfs? jails? fortified places? just big huts? stans?
                Can this be interpreted as an administrative-territorial state structure? At least it is debatable.
                And tributes are like fixed taxes, in contrast to the archaic polyudy.
                Tribute is an act of external violence carried out with the help of military force, as we see from PVL. It seems to me impossible to interpret it as a state tax.
                And by the way, were there any taxes in ancient Russia? the sources don't say much about it. hi
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 27 May 2021 15: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: Mihaylov
                  Pogost, apparently, is the same root with the word guest, to stay, hotel, and in this case its original meaning is most likely used - "place of guest",

                  It seems to me that initially this word had a more specific, narrow meaning. In ancient times, people moved mainly with one purpose - trade, exchange. A guest is a merchant, and a churchyard is a place where property transactions were made. This place must have a certain transport accessibility, that is, stand on the "main" track and have "access" roads from the surrounding settlements. Over time, it could become overgrown with infrastructure - marinas, premises for storing goods, transport (stables, sheds for ships), for the temporary stay of the merchant himself, his guard, etc. Locals brought their goods to the churchyard and exchanged them for "goodies" - goods brought by "guests".
                  Over time, the concept expanded somewhat, since the functions of graveyards, which acquired a permanent population, turned for the locals into a meeting place, exchange of news and, of course, a gathering place for polyudyas - not every village for a prince with a retinue to go every time, has expanded, although initially this is probably , it did.
                  In the understanding of PVL, graveyards are, apparently, precisely the tribute collection points, where the villagers traditionally brought their surpluses for exchange. It's just that now such a special person appeared there - a tiun, who collected a fixed, agreed tribute for the prince, the amount of which was established and known, and along the way represented the power itself on the spot.
                  Quote: Mihaylov
                  Tribute is an act of external violence carried out with the help of military force

                  In my understanding, this is a polyudye. Tribute is a product of an agreement between the government and the population. Its size and timing of submission are agreed and must be respected, for which a representative of the administration should have sat on the spot, who was already responsible to the prince for both the volume and the timeliness.
                  Quote: Mihaylov
                  And by the way, were there any taxes in ancient Russia? the sources don't say much about it.

                  I have come across the concept of "poop". I believe that this is the taxes from the population. Apparently, until a certain time they were collected in the form of products of agricultural production, hunting, gathering - bread, meat, fish, hemp, furs, honey, etc. Fees or "boras" are trade taxes and duties. Virs are fines. The last two were taken in silver. A complete set of government duties. Novgorod was always arguing with the princes for a "black forest", probably an analogue of the current VAT, I do not know.
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 27 May 2021 16: 38
                    +1
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    In my understanding, this is a polyudye. Tribute is a product of an agreement between the government and the population. Its size and deadline for submission are agreed and must be respected, for which a representative of the administration should have sat on the spot, who was already responsible to the prince for both the volume and the timeliness

                    The question of these terms, like everything else, is debatable: some identify tribute and polyudye, others clearly distinguish.
                    Probably:
                    tribute is an act of external violence: tribute is paid to the Khazars or, for example, the Avars. That is, in modern terms, we have foreign policy relations here.
                    As for polyudye, it is more similar to internal relations: one of the forms of existence of princely power (early princely power) was voluntary gifts from their fellow tribesmen. The collection of gifts took place through a detour of the tribal territory, in other words - walking around the people. Hence the name of the detour: polyudye.
                    For the first time, the term is found in Konstantin Porphyrogenitus:
                    “The archons leave Kiev with all the dews and go to the polyudia, which is called“ whirling, ”namely, in the Glorification of the Vervians, Druzhuvites, Krivichi, Severii and other Slavs, who are paktiots (tributary or ally?) Of the dews. Feeding there throughout the winter, they return to Kiev again, starting in April, when the ice on the Dnieper River melts. "
                    Compare with the message of Tacitus about the Germans:
                    “The [Germanic] tribes have a custom that all voluntarily bring to the leaders a certain amount of livestock or earthly fruits; it is accepted as an honorable gift, but at the same time serves to satisfy needs "
                    Soon, the gifts collected during the rounds of people began to be called polyudye too. Polyudye arises in the depths of the tribal system and in itself does not yet mean the existence of a state or a class society. Naturally, like everything else, it transforms over time. hi
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 27 May 2021 18: 05
                      +1
                      Quote: Mihaylov
                      Polyudye arises in the depths of the tribal system and in itself does not yet mean the existence of a state or a class society.

                      This is yes.
                      But I would not assert the exceptional voluntariness of the polyudye. In a number of cases, the seizure of valuables in the process of collecting polyudye was clearly violent, and it seems to me that such cases were not at all exceptional. But the most important thing is that polyudye, unlike tribute, did not have a predetermined size. How much they give (or how much there is) - they took as much.
                      Tribute, unlike polyudya, has a specified size. How did Oleg communicate with the Radimichi, literally:
                      - Whom do you pay?
                      - Khazars.
                      - Don't pay the Khazars, pay me.
                      And they gave him a tribute according to the established volume, as before the Khazars.
                      That is, since the time of Oleg, in certain places they have already begun to establish a fixed tribute, and somewhere else they have collected polyudye. But they did not leave their people on the ground - they themselves came, with a squad and weapons.
                      Quote: Mihaylov
                      tribute is an act of external violence

                      This is an interesting observation, it never crossed my mind. That is, tribute is collected from the neighbors. I agree with this. But in relation to Olga, we have information about churchyards, tributes and even rent in one sentence. For some reason, it seems to me that quitrent refers to certain obligations of a non-property nature, perhaps to carry out at their own expense some work on the repair and maintenance of infrastructure - for example, clearing river beds from blockages and stones, repairing roads, bridges, piers, etc. And when churchyards, rent and tribute are used in one sentence, this suggests that "tribute" is still not only an instrument of foreign policy relations. Internal extortions from the population clearly under your control were also called tributes.
                      In general, it seems to me personally that one can argue about whether the Eastern Slavs had a state before Olga, but since her reign, it, in the understanding that is available to me, has already taken place in full and in all its glory. Only the boundaries of its territories can be the subject of a dispute, but this is a separate conversation.
                      In general, it is somehow pointless to dispute about the emergence of a state without a clear definition of this term. And since there is no clear definition, it is generally not clear what some minds reason and argue about. smile
                      1. Konnick
                        Konnick 27 May 2021 18: 16
                        +1
                        Tribute, unlike polyudya, has a specified size. How did Oleg communicate with the Radimichi, literally:
                        - Whom do you pay?
                        - Khazars.
                        - Don't pay the Khazars, pay me.
                        And they gave him a tribute according to the established volume, as before the Khazars.
                        That is, since the time of Oleg, in certain places they have already begun to establish a fixed tribute, and somewhere else they have collected polyudye. But they did not leave their people on the ground - they themselves came, with a squad and weapons.


                        Almost like in the 90s of the 20th century. Just mafia roofs. Even with designated arrows. Solid banditry am
                      2. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov 28 May 2021 10: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        In general, it is somehow pointless to dispute about the emergence of a state without a clear definition of this term.

                        I agree to all 100 (as the poet Ivan Bezdomny used to figuratively say) laughing
                        For some reason, it seems to me that quitrent refers to certain obligations of a non-property nature, perhaps to carry out at their own expense some work on the repair and maintenance of the infrastructure

                        Here is one interesting point: again, what is meant by a rent in this PVL message?
                        With the later meaning of this word (submit, vow, obligation), everything seems to be clear, but the question was whether this was meant in PVL?
                        The word "quitrent" comes from the Slavic basis "doomed" (related - "speech") - literally "what they agreed on" (in our opinion - an agreement or an agreement) and another meaning in the sense - "oath promise".
                        Given this moment, it can be assumed that we are talking about tributes and certain agreements, or rather oaths.
                        If we proceed from the definition of the state, which I am used to using (it is higher), that is, through the generic concept of "territory", then quite a state is obtained.

                        Without a doubt, every state has a territory, but not every "territorial entity" is a state: is the "state of Germanarich" a state? or "Attila's empire"? More likely still no than yes.
                        But as you correctly pointed out, without a clear definition of the term "state", the dispute is pointless.
                        In general, we talked well ... hi
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 28 May 2021 11: 59
                        +1
                        Yes, thanks, it was interesting. hi
                  2. stalkerwalker
                    stalkerwalker 27 May 2021 18: 22
                    0
                    Quote: Mihaylov
                    Probably:
                    tribute is an act of external violence

                    Are you serious?
                    When you pay for a purchase in a store, do you think that the merchant is forcibly forcing you to give him the money?
                    Tribute is rather an economic aspect of military-political relations. In the end, the tribute was paid by sending their youth on a "forced call" into the army of the prince, the kagan.
                    But polyudye is a pure tax. Tax on the right to be a vassal.
                    1. El Barto
                      El Barto 27 May 2021 23: 54
                      +1
                      In fact, yes. Forces. Only not the seller, but the state.
                      There is a law that defines the rules of sale and purchase (for example, the Civil Code of the Russian Federation), which says that the buyer, purchasing the goods, is obliged to pay its price to the seller.
                      And the state by its power guarantees the fulfillment of this law and the fulfillment by the buyer of his obligations.
                      If you do not pay for the goods, the seller can turn to the state (to the court) with demands either for compulsory execution (debt collection) or for refusal to fulfill the contract and return the goods.

                      As for the ancient taxes and fees, there were many forms and names of them.

                      And as far as "polyudya" is concerned, it is not a tax, but a process of collecting money from the population. Archaic and similar to the North German "detour", when the prince himself with his soldiers bypassed the land, collected taxes / tributes and simultaneously performed separate functions - judicial and other actions to strengthen power
                    2. stalkerwalker
                      stalkerwalker 28 May 2021 09: 28
                      0
                      Quote: El Barto
                      In fact, yes. Forces. Only not the seller, but the state

                      Not the point.
                      The fact of the relationship between the tribute collector and the tribute collector is important.
                      During the period of the military-trade formation of the history of the development of Russia, the tax, like polyudye, was the only "bloodless" way to replenish the treasury of the prince, who controlled the trade routes, if we are talking about the period at the turn of the XNUMXth century.
                      The very history of the formation of Kiev, as a capital city, speaks of this, tk. Kiev was located much to the south of its competitors, cities that controlled the flow of goods from south to north from the Caspian and Black Sea regions. Therefore, the goods that were transported from Byzantium and the Middle East were cheaper in Kiev than, say, in Novgorod or Pskov.
                      Quote: El Barto
                      concerns "polyudya" - it is not a tax, but the process of collecting money from the population. Archaic and similar to the North German "detour", when the prince himself with his soldiers bypassed the land, collected taxes / tributes and simultaneously performed separate functions - judicial and other actions to strengthen power

                      This state of affairs developed when the princes began to "plant on the ground" residents of fire, or even just slaves, with the aim of cultivating the land in the initial period of the formation of the so-called. agriculture of that time.
                      Litigation was carried out as a rule in the capital city, where the complainants gathered.
                      But most often it was within the city itself, since there was essentially no one to judge outside the city walls. The main clients of the princely court were the same military-commercial estate, on the successful functioning of which the size of the prince's treasury depended, and which was expressed in the number of the "close squad", its fighting efficiency and the number of precious metals on the neck and on the wrists of the prince's neighbors ...
                    3. El Barto
                      El Barto 28 May 2021 12: 03
                      +1
                      This state of affairs developed when the princes began to "plant on the ground" residents of fire, or even just slaves, with the aim of cultivating the land in the initial period of the formation of the so-called. agriculture of that time.


                      It is the practice of "polyudya" and "detours" that is the most archaic. It was used when there were not yet any centralized power structures on the ground, and the city was essentially a castle with an adjoining marketplace and a marina plus a couple of small fortified settlements of the tribal aristocracy. The rest of the population, including the tribal elite, was scattered over a large territory, lived in chains of tribal settlements and was engaged in subsistence farming.

                      In such conditions, the princes (and even the kings) were simply forced to go around the volost in order to collect themselves banal funds for food and remind themselves of themselves as power.
                      - on the one hand, on the income from the control over trade - you cannot live "wasted", trade and commodity flow were weak, simply because subsistence farming and the mode of production of that time did not provide surpluses that could be used for exchange. The produced product was barely enough to keep our legs from stretching.
                      - on the other hand, if the prince did not come, they could simply "forget" about him and not pay anything at all and not obey, they would disappear. The power of princes and kings was very conditional - as long as there is a prince with armed men - there is power, we obey and pay, left - there is no power, we live as usual.

                      What you are writing about refers precisely to the late period, when the role of princes and cities increased, and representatives of the central government were already planted in the localities.
                    4. stalkerwalker
                      stalkerwalker 29 May 2021 09: 56
                      0
                      Quote: El Barto
                      What you are writing about refers precisely to the late period, when the role of princes and cities increased, and representatives of the central government were already planted in the localities.

                      At an early stage, there were no firemen, and no one else in the subordinate territories who would centrally supply the city, or the prince, with agricultural products. Everything happened through the exchange of goods that the local tribes brought to the city.
                      Therefore, there was no one to "judge" ...
                      With the expansion of the territories controlled by the prince, "sidyahu" in the city, there appeared adjacent to the city, or cities, places that could be processed and receive the necessary agricultural products. For this, the neighborhood was settled by people who essentially belonged to the prince. The townspeople remained in the city.
                      The beginning of the change from the military-trade period to the classic feudal one can be considered the time when Andrei Bogolyubsky refused to rule while sitting in Kiev, and moved his "headquarters" to Vladimir. But this was preceded by a mass migration of "free" people from their habitual habitats to the territory of White Russia.
                    5. El Barto
                      El Barto 29 May 2021 16: 23
                      0
                      The fact of the matter is that in the early stages the city is a fortified princely court and 2-3 boyar estates within a radius of 1-2 km

                      Secondly, no one took anything anywhere - there was no surplus for exchange, subsistence farming.

                      Therefore, the prince was actually forced to engage in "surplus appropriation" bypassing the land and collecting food for himself. At the head of his "food detachment" - squads
          4. El Barto
            El Barto 28 May 2021 00: 03
            +1
            Let me when it is process collection of taxes - "polyudye", an analogue of the German "obyezd", transferred its name to the tax / lesson itself?

            Polyudye is an archaic way of collecting tax, when the prince himself traveled with the army on the ground and was engaged in extortion from the population. For the tax itself, there were naturally other terms
  • north 2
    north 2 26 May 2021 13: 05
    +4
    Quote: Deniska999
    No Kievan Rus existed either as a "state" or as a "federation", just as there was no "feudal fragmentation" (due to the absence of feudal lords). Actually, the last conclusion was made at the end of the Soviet era, and research and statistical analysis of the remarkable scientist-archaeologist Andrei Kuza (killed in 1984) proved this.

    In a nutshell: Kuza was the first and last in Eurasian archeology / history to have guessed to bring all data on "Old Russian" (and not only) monuments (settlements and settlements) into a single database and put them on the map, adding data in the attached files about the results excavations. Immediately it came out that the chronicles are inadequate and "do not know" just heaps of settlements. But this is not so bad. It turned out that no noticeable property stratification was observed in the East Slavic settlements. It looked especially ridiculous in the example of Novgorod, where the average size of the estates (and, however, only about fifty of them were excavated) varied from 400-500 square meters to 1200-1600 square meters (but all estimates by eye). As a result, they had to admit that the size of the estates did not correspond to the "social status". Simply put, the Slavic colonization of Northern Eurasia for a long time - the first 250-350 years, at least - was egalitarian, and the abundance of lands and spaces led to the fact that even a poor person could afford to live in a huge - by European standards - yard.

    That is, all these "ancient principalities" of interplanetary "Piast-Rurikovich" drawn on the maps are going to the dump. Fortunately, some of them were invented just recently. For example, the Ryazan principality. According to the excavations of the Staroryazan expedition of the Institute of Archeology of the USSR Academy of Sciences under the leadership of Mongayt and Darkevich, it turned out that the city was young, did not exist for long (100-150 years) and in the format of a military fortress, where ... people from the Carpathian region lived (according to the peculiarities of the construction of courtyards, they established). No estates of the "feudal lords" were found (as well as the prince's palace, by the way), but the arrowheads of crossbows were found (according to the official history, they could not be there). Let us recall that until the end of the 1580th century it was considered seriously that Old Ryazan was destroyed during the raid of the Crimean Tatars in the XNUMXs.

    As for Andrey Kuza, I would like to note: archaeologists and historians still, despite the presence of computers and the simplicity of maintaining databases, shy away from compiling them like the devil with incense. With reference to the results of excavations and maps. Therefore, the picture looks sad (I quote Wikipedia):

    "A monograph prepared by A. V. Kuza about the small towns of ancient Russia and his catalog of ancient Russian settlements of the X-XIII centuries were published posthumously in 1989 and 1996, respectively. Despite the significantly expanded source base since then, A. V. Kuza's works on the degree of generalization and qualitative analysis have remained unsurpassed to date. "

    Do you understand, yes? The loner, who lived in the pre-computer era, managed to do more than all this pack of historians and archaeologists over the past 30 years, and his works published after his death (in tiny circulations, as it should be in Eurasia) - "have not been surpassed so far."

    The name Kievan Rus first appeared in the works of Mikhail Maksimovich only in the XNUMXth century. And in ancient times, Russia was a few isolated principalities living their own lives. There was, according to Maksimovich, Novgorod Rus, Vladimir Rus, Kievan Rus, etc. Where the most influential and strongest prince ruled, such Rus was called those Russian lands. And with the nominal subordination of the lands to Kiev, Russia then was not united to call it all Kievan Rus.
    Further after Maksimovich, this term Kievan Rus was used in their writings by Solovyov, Kostomarov and other historians only to emphasize from where the most influential Russian prince ruled. And Klyuchevsky used the name Kievan Rus in order to separate and distinguish Old Russia from New Upper Volga Rus. So now this term Kievan Rus is somehow useless to pronounce. Ancient Russia of such and such a century, and everything in this is clear ...
    1. Artyom Karagodin
      Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 14: 08
      +5
      Yes, this is nothing more than a conventional designation, as, for example, Byzantium. This name also appeared only in the XNUMXth century. This terminology has already become established, so it is used. Is it worth arguing on this topic?
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        26 May 2021 16: 20
        +6
        I will support, Kievan Rus is the same scientific and theoretical concept as Byzantium.
        Understand and ask
        1. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 17: 08
          +3
          The Byzantines themselves called themselves Romans. They remembered that they were Greeks, already in the era of the decline of the empire, when everything was cracking at the seams. But if someone called them Byzantines, they would be very surprised))).
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 26 May 2021 17: 47
            +5
            Quote: Artyom Karagodin
            The Byzantines themselves called themselves Romans.

            They say in remote places back in the 40-50s of the XX century, they called themselves Romans.
            Now they are called the Hellenes, in the time of Byzantium such a term was impossible, since Hellene = pagan.
            1. Artyom Karagodin
              Artyom Karagodin 26 May 2021 17: 59
              +2
              Quote: Mihaylov
              They say in remote places back in the 40-50s of the XX century, they called themselves Romans.

              Did not know. Thank you))). Put +.
              1. Edward Vashchenko
                26 May 2021 19: 10
                +4
                This is how A. Toynbee begins his story about a trip on foot in Greece before the 1st World War.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 26 May 2021 17: 11
    +2
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    He could have destroyed it, but Kirpichnikov did not allow him.

    Did he chase him away with a stick or with a Russian sword?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      26 May 2021 19: 12
      +4
      A. N. Kirpichnikov was an emphatically intelligent person.
      This is G.S. Lebedev walked around dressed like a Viking, but without a sword, stick and chain mail laughing
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 27 May 2021 14: 39
        +2
        Means - Lebedev did not allow "fucking"? Joke
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 26 May 2021 17: 38
    +2
    Good day . Valery, I am very pleased with your work, it, like the previous ones, broadens the horizons.
    Valery, I have already promised more than once that I will oppose you, if possible, relying on logic.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 26 May 2021 20: 07
    +1
    "With the help of the Polish king Boleslav he returned to Kiev and even carried out repressions against the Kievites", that every tenth Kievite was executed? In the style: "morning of the streltsy execution" or specific boyars, conditional: Payments, Heaps and Stallions?
    As you wish, and behind each manifestation of the "people's will" were specific boyars or clerks
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      26 May 2021 20: 25
      +2
      Good evening,
      fantasy or speculation can be anything.
      I proceed from the sources, but there are no boyars and clerks, there are townspeople in this case. And secondly, from the definition of society.
      We are greatly influenced by the knowledge that we received in childhood, there is nothing wrong here, but the boyars in the film "Ilya Muromets" or in the film "Alexander Nevsky" are cunning scoundrels. But this is an artistic view + the views of some historians of the 40s of the twentieth century, science has gone ahead. Believe it or not.
      No one denies the importance of the leaders of society, the same boyars, no one says that the crowd screamed and decided everything, we are talking about the development and formation of direct rule of the people. And we see analogues in the same historical situation among the ancient Greeks, and further in the text.
      Yours faithfully, hi
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 27 May 2021 15: 19
        +1
        Valery, good afternoon. I do not deny that the film "Alexander Nevsky" made a significant impression on me. But I take into account the era when the film was filmed, + I read: Balashova, Tumasov, Karamzin and I know that the boyars were also different
        P
        S
        Maybe not in the subject, but I perceive the film negatively: "Ivan the Terrible". Malyuta Skuratov-Belsky is very annoying there: 1 "odious" personality, but it is presented as.
  • north 2
    north 2 26 May 2021 20: 40
    -1
    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    I will support, Kievan Rus is the same scientific and theoretical concept as Byzantium.
    Understand and ask
    Not only the term Kievan Rus in its component is similar to the component of the term Byzantium. And this term originated during the Byzantine Empire. This is the term Little Russians and Little Russia. The thing is, and the trouble is that after the times of the Byzantine Empire, not some Ukrainians were called Little Russians, but Little Russians were called some kind of Ukrainians, and Little Russia was called some kind of Ukraine ... But Little Russia, these Southwestern the lands of Russia were called back in the days of the Byzantine Empire. In fact, those who are called Ukrainians today, they were then called Little Russians in Russian, Kleinrussen in German, Little Russians in English. and what today calls Ukraine from the time of Byzantium was called Little Russia, Kleinrussland, Little Russia. And all these names in all languages ​​are tracing paper from the Byzantine Greek language. I don’t have a Greek alphabet to show it. That is why and who began to rename the Little Russians into Ukrainians and Little Russia into Ukraine ...?
  • faterdom
    faterdom 26 May 2021 23: 45
    +1
    I don’t know, the approach of Marxist science about social-class formations and their development was always somehow doubtful to me.
    Everything is somehow too primitive and simple.
    Here it is the Stone Age (generally incomprehensible, when people of the type lived without rules, laws at all, or vice versa, due to their primitiveness, scared of all sorts of totems and taboos, often cannibalism, but it is not known much more to be attributed to gastronomy or a form of relationship).
    But the slaveholding system has already dawned - the bright future of all mankind! Here you have writing, and navigation, and construction, and world empires, aqueduct again, History, which even has a father, democracy in its original unclouded form. Even, I'm not afraid of these words - geometry and trigonometry, this is not democracy for you - here you have to think, not yell. The square of the hypotenuse equals ... no-oh, no hailey like, give proof. Olympic Games without WADA (you can retroactively deprive all those who were then champions)!
    And what was missing? But more because the advanced formation - feudalism is advancing!
    And why is it more advanced? Is that after the "Dark Ages", when writing was almost lost, and almost all ancient knowledge was lost ... Moreover, relapses of slavery in the 19th century were still massive and organized, in the same USA, and still have place, let alone feudalism ... Glazyev and Delyagin argue that we are now in "thug feudalism", and not from scratch.
    In general, the classical medieval feudalism is considered to be what Charlemagne created on the basis of Germanic tribes and the ruins of the Western Roman Empire. Vassalage, estates, counts - managers, dukes - hereditary nobility of a high level, bishops who are forbidden to hunt and wear civilian lush clothes. Military and labor conscription, a single currency, a system of measures, a single religion. Feudal staircase.
    But everything else is deviations with a national, religious, and even economic flavor, although also of the type of feudalism. Khorezm, China, Caliphate, Horde, Hungarians, Slavs - everything is very different. And sometimes to put on the same board the same Nogai Horde, or the Crimean Tatar Khanate, where the basis of the economy is the raids and robberies of neighbors with Burgundy or the Emirate of Cordoba, it's like Karl Linnaeus would enroll beetles with crustaceans in one family ...
    Something like this, conventionally it is considered so, but how it really is - what and when formations - is not so simple. And not necessarily the later ones - they are more progressive. Not so long ago, the theories (and practices) of fascism arose, and if in the last century we dodged them at a heavy cost, then the danger has not passed, as we see, even today.
  • El Barto
    El Barto 28 May 2021 12: 45
    +1
    I am quite sympathetic to the approach of A.Ya. Gurevich. He very convincingly analyzes the social processes of the transition from the communal to the feudal formation.
    And in my opinion, there is very little reason to believe that in Eastern Europe these processes followed a different path.

    http://www.norge.ru/folklend_odal/
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      28 May 2021 16: 25
      0
      Alex,
      good day,
      In my works, I always rely on the research of A.Ya. Gurevich, they are always on the list of works. And from the first year at the University I am his admirers, since my first subject, coursework for the 1st year - 100 pages, was "Old Scandinavian Sources on Ancient Russia" ... But ...
      Long topic.
      In short, the processes were similar, which I am trying to show in these articles, the difference is that the Eastern Slavs embarked on the path of historical development, were born, emerged from oblivion, as you wish, five to six centuries later than the Germans (very approximately), even the Scandinavians during the 10th century had a territorial, not a tribal community. And this must be clearly understood.
      Unfortunately, among medievalists, including A.Ya. Gurevich, his reasoning about the "second edition of serfdom" is far from the realities of Ancient Russia.
      And lastly, understanding the processes in this vein6 about which I am writing helps to look differently at the same processes in Europe, we had it later, more documents have been preserved. For example, the problem of the "service state", we have worked out quite well both in the ON and in Moscow Russia, and they only have a "problem statement" in Spain - the Reconquista. But because there are few documents, and the retrospective method would be a good helper here.
      Yours faithfully,
      hi