Military Review

The trial of Rear Admiral Nebogatov

146
The trial of Rear Admiral Nebogatov

The Russo-Japanese War was going on.


The First Pacific Squadron was blocked at Port Arthur. The Vladivostok cruiser detachment lost the Rurik in Tsushima. On land, defeat followed defeat, and the Baltic Fleet (more precisely, its combat-ready part) came to the rescue under the name of the 2nd Pacific Squadron. But it soon became clear that there was no hope for the Pacific, and the 2nd TOE itself was unable to defeat the Japanese. We need reinforcements. There was hope for exotic cruisers (armored cruisers of Argentina and Chile), but it did not materialize. And then it was decided to send what is capable of reaching the Far East in the Baltic.

In general, the choice was not great - two outdated ramming battleships, armored (and outdated) cruisers "Memory of Azov" and "Vladimir Monomakh", an outdated armored cruiser "Admiral Kornilov" and three battleships of coastal defense, new, but rather worn out and unsuitable for long-distance transitions.

The selection was based on the principle that what is on the move will go. So the ancient ram "Nicholas I", three coastal defense battleships and the armored frigate "Vladimir Monomakh" were included in the 3rd Pacific Squadron. The rest were in need of repairs. And the last battleship of the Borodino class - Slava - is under construction.

They did not wait for anyone (and thank God). And the detachment, called the squadron to fear the foe, went on a campaign. For a long time, however, they could not find a commander - the admirals shied away from such an appointment as the devil from incense, for obvious reasons. But in the end it was Rear Admiral Nebogatov, either not very smart and wanting fame, or weak-willed and unable to fight off the authorities, who ordered to kill themselves against the wall, in the sense of catching up and finding Rozhdestvensky's squadron in the ocean, and if it doesn't work out, break through to Vladivostok on your own.

The detachment left. Moreover, I caught up and found it. Although the frantic Zinovy ​​himself was sharply opposed, believing that with such reinforcements it would not be long to lose. Slow, outdated, or with artillery fired upon, unsuitable for ocean crossings, they were not help, but rather a weakness and a weight on their feet.

Be that as it may, on May 14, Nebogatov led his squadron, renamed 3-1 armored detachment, in the tail of the column, with a clear task - to act independently. However, on his own, apart from following the first and second armored detachments, he did nothing. Even after seeing the death of "Oslyaby" and knocking out of "Suvorov", he did not take command, waiting for an order (either from St. Petersburg, or from the Lord). And after Rozhestvensky, rescued by the destroyer "Buiny", handed over the command, he did not think of anything smarter than to rush to Vladivostok by the shortest route.

Given that his ships received minimal damage, most of the main forces, including his own coastal defense battleship Admiral Ushakov, could not keep up with him. And on the morning of May 15, the Japanese met five ships - the Nikolai I battering ram, the battered Eagle, which by some miracle did not lag behind the new commander, two Senyavin and Apraksin missile cruisers, and the Izumrud light cruiser.

Seeing the united fleet, Nebogatov ordered to raise the white flag, declaring that he was saving the sailors. Only the "Izumrud" did not obey, breaking past the Japanese to the shores of Russia, but, alas, did not reach Vladivostok.

As a result, the Japanese received four ships, two of which managed to take part in the Sakhalin operation (BBO) and shoot at the Russians. Nebogatov himself, returning from captivity, gave an interview to the British media, in which he thickly smeared his commander, ships, crews and Russia with a known substance, instantly becoming the idol of the liberal public of that time.

And then there was the trial, which began on November 22, 1906.

Court



The strangeness begins already with the name - Nebogatov did not hand over any detachment, he surrendered the Second Pacific Squadron, the command of which he took on the evening of May 14.

Strange and accusations - in addition to surrender, a minimum of official negligence was shown, as a result of which the squadron disintegrated and was finished off by the enemy in parts. And going to Vladivostok in those conditions is such an interesting form of suicide. I'm not even talking about the daytime battle: unwillingness to take command and understanding the order to "act independently" like walking at the end of the column and not giving any orders even to your detachment is at least a reason for serious investigation.

The order was:

1) If the enemy turns out to be ahead and to the right of the course, then at the signal (...) the main forces go to him to accept the battle, supported by the III armored detachment and the cruising and reconnaissance detachments, which seem to act independently, in accordance with the conditions of the moment ...

In the event that the enemy meets while the squadron is following, in the afternoon, in marching order, I prescribe to be guided by my order of January 22 of this year. No. 66 with the following addition: I

The II armored detachment, maneuvering at the signals of its flagship, in all cases rushes to join the main forces, increasing the course for this as much as possible with the available number of boilers, and breeding pairs in the rest.

If the enemy in large forces appears from behind, then he must restrain his onslaught and cover the transports until the arrival of the main forces.

The procedure for maneuvering a detachment to the right, left, forward or backward from the marching formation, depending on the place of appearance of the enemy, has now to be developed and announced by the commander of the III armored detachment.

More precisely - as many as two orders. But there was no order of maneuvering, no signals from Nebogatov. He just walked, doing nothing, which for some reason did not interest the court.

If you state the claims of any sane person, then this is briefly:

1. Complete lack of initiative in battle.
2. Flight from the battlefield in the evening.
3. Absence of even the slightest attempt at an organized retreat.
4. Surrender.
5. Slander against the commander.

They tried only on point four.

It was an interesting trial.

First, the "savior of the sailors" said ... that he did not hand over the squadron, and the detachment did not hand over, but handed over only his flagship, "Nicholas I", the rest, they say, "all by ourselves." Then, that he did not have enough time to prepare the sinking of the ships (more than an hour, probably, the admiral planned to fill the water with children's buckets). And then - that, in fact, he only suggested, but the officers' council made a decision, it has nothing to do with it.

The commander and staff members echoed it. So, Lieutenant Sergeev said that his will and memory were paralyzed. Which, however, did not prevent him from remembering that the team cried with emotion and thanked Nebogatov. Apart from Sergeev, however, no one noticed this. Rather, the opposite, but that's okay. The rest behaved much more decently. And a wild picture emerges from their testimony: so the signal of surrender was raised BEFORE the officers' council.

And the wild circus in court continued. And not only on the part of the accused, as can be understood, the death penalty was imposed for surrender. But also from the side of the prosecutor Vogak.

So, he tried to bring under the article the officers of "Emerald" ... for failure to comply with the order to surrender and not enter into battle with everything Japanese fleet... It didn't work out, really. And the chief of the cruiser notably protrolled Vogak, who, as it turned out, sincerely did not understand the difference between a cruiser and a battleship, while leading the accusation in the process of military sailors. In the last word, Nebogatov mocked the prosecutor and turned on the liberal again, starting to petition for the crews of his ships ... which were not in any danger anyway.

The verdict is also interesting - the death penalty for Nebogatov and the commanders of his ships (in addition to the "Eagle", which was incapable of combat) with an appeal to Nicholas II with a request to replace the execution with a ten-year term. Nikolai replaced.

And Nebogatov was in prison for only two years.

Two years in four surrendered and six abandoned and lost ships that terrible night. Thousands are at the bottom, thousands are disgraced, and two years in prison.

Why did this happen?

Causes



What happened is understandable - an elderly man, who never believed in victory and had never been in battle, fell into a panic in front of responsibility and rushed to carry out the last order of the commander, without even thinking about the consequences and nuances.

In the morning, realizing what he had done and that he would die under fire, he decided to surrender. For, again, it won't get any worse. If he hadn't even raised the white flag and survived, questions would have arisen ... Up to the tribunal - so what?

In captivity, on the other hand, after a little reflection, he decided to get an acquittal, taking advantage of the internal political situation, which he partially succeeded. It turned out because a revolution was taking place in Russia. And the rampant liberalism.

And our society, progressive beyond measure, has always hated the army and navy. And then such an admiral, all in white, comes out and begins to angrily denounce the "tsarist satraps" and "stupid boots" in the progressive English media and in the courtroom, along the way telling how he saved the "oppressed sailors" lives. Still, Nikolai Nebogatov was the smartest person, it is a pity that he used his brains in the wrong place.

The public warmly supported Nebogatov, according to the principle of Russian Westernizers: whoever is with us is a saint. And as a result, the court had to violate the law for the sake of domestic policy.

Then the myth took on a life of its own. Having received a powerful foundation in Soviet times, it still exists today. Like, the poor admiral, with a suppressed will, in a desperate situation, saved the sailors. It is true that it remains outside the brackets - who made this situation hopeless? What about the crews of the stragglers who died from Japanese shells and torpedoes? And what about the inhabitants of Sakhalin, killed by the shells transferred by Nebogatov to the enemy in full serviceability of the ships? Or, as they like to say these days, "is this different?"

A case like days gone by. An abyss of time has passed from Tsushima. The other day was the 116th anniversary of the battle. But the shame remained.

And there was an example: this is possible. In the sense: to fill up everything, and then, having hit the trend, become a hero. And this is annoying even after a couple of epochs.

It means that many do not understand some historical truths, which means that they can be repeated.
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  1. Atlant-1164
    Atlant-1164 24 May 2021 18: 15
    +15
    In the case of the surrender of "Emperor Nicholas I", "Eagle", "General-Admiral Apraksin" and "Admiral Senyavin", even before the verdict was passed, all the defendants were demoted to ranks and dismissed from service.
    Admiral Nebogatov and three commanders of the surrendered ships were sentenced to death, but the court petitioned the emperor to change the death penalty to imprisonment in a fortress for a period of 10 years, which was approved.

    He served only two years, was pardoned, died in 1922 in Moscow. But there are rumors that he lived until 1934, working as a school teacher in the Crimean village of Mikhailovka. Since even the cemetery in Moscow is known, where he rests with his wife, this is most likely a legend.
    1. Oleg Aviator
      Oleg Aviator 25 May 2021 17: 40
      0
      Thank you for the information.
  2. Torins
    Torins 24 May 2021 18: 17
    +6
    We always had a lot of questions with the fleet and later, and even now we have no less questions. I don't blame anyone for anything, but damn it, there are always some insoluble global problems, either from poverty, or from stupidity.
    1. Jager
      Jager 24 May 2021 18: 29
      +3
      Rather, the first follows from the second.
    2. Svarog
      Svarog 24 May 2021 19: 39
      +4
      Quote: Torins
      We always had a lot of questions with the fleet and later, and even now we have no less questions. I don't blame anyone for anything, but damn it, there are always some insoluble global problems, either from poverty, or from stupidity.

      from theft .. lack of principle and vulgarity ..
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 24 May 2021 20: 43
        +1
        from theft .. lack of principle and vulgarity ..

        - the struggle of the various front rooms of the Winter Palace - the unobrazovka clique lost and that's good. it was necessary to reconcile everyone. everyone was forgiven in honor of the turmoil. "the consolidation of healthy monarchist and other forces" rallied all the opponents of the socialists against the socialists.
    3. unknown
      unknown 25 May 2021 22: 39
      0
      Rather, from treason.
  3. Avior
    Avior 24 May 2021 18: 26
    +7
    ... It is true that it remains outside the brackets - who made this situation hopeless?

    Is it real? One man who should not have taken up the reign, and who led the country to collapse in the end ...
    1. Torins
      Torins 24 May 2021 18: 29
      +3
      Nikolai II ordered Nebogatov to sail to the Japanese fleet and surrender? What a horror, but historians do not know lol
      1. Avior
        Avior 24 May 2021 18: 35
        +1
        And Nicholas 2 ordered the Japanese to lose the war to someone on land or at sea?
        What a horror, but historians do not know

        hi
      2. faiver
        faiver 25 May 2021 11: 56
        +5
        Nikolasha provoked this war when the country was not ready and lost it both on land and at sea. hi
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 24 May 2021 19: 37
      +1
      What do you want from a henpecked?
    3. bandabas
      bandabas 24 May 2021 21: 06
      +1
      During the Revel meeting, Wilhelm II guaranteed "Nika's cousin" the security of Russia's western border and the ability to send the Baltic Fleet to the Pacific Ocean. At parting, the Kaiser sent signal flags a greeting to the “Admiral of the Pacific” from the “Admiral of the Atlantic Ocean.” “Cousin” followed the lead. The results are known. They still go around.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    4. unknown
      unknown 25 May 2021 22: 43
      -1
      This man invested a gold reserve in the creation of the Federal Reserve, until 1917 most of the large enterprises were corporatized, the money was withdrawn abroad, after the "revolution" he ruled in Great Britain under the name of George the Fifth.
      Russia was thrown, the assets were taken out, the obligations to the people were nullified. And this ?
      1. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 26 May 2021 16: 28
        +3
        Quote: ignoto
        after the "revolution" he ruled in Great Britain under the name of George the Fifth.

        Whoa! What a twist!
  4. iskanderzp
    iskanderzp 24 May 2021 19: 44
    +6
    How easy it is to judge others who find themselves in a hopeless situation. Dear author, I do not doubt your determination to fight to the last in Nebogatov's place. But with what result? Old ships with gunshot (BBO) guns. Neither reach the enemy, nor leave ... Yes, probably it was necessary to open the kingstones. And it doesn't matter that most of the personnel would have drowned along with the ships. Nebogatov did not. Yes, he broke the covenant of Peter the Great. Was convicted. But God forbid anyone to be in a situation where the choice is between terrible and disgusting. So "do not judge, that you will not be judged" ...
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 May 2021 20: 11
      +15
      Quote: iskanderzp
      in the place of Nebogatov, fight to the last. But with what result?

      It’s too late to think at that moment, but earlier ...
      His detachment was discovered at five in the morning, was surrounded at about ten, surrendered at eleven. There was at least five hours to make a decision. He would hardly have managed to leave as Enquist, but he was obliged to bring the ships to the nearest land and thereby save both honor and people, as did the commander of the "Donskoy" Lebedev!
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 24 May 2021 23: 10
        +9
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        He would hardly have succeeded in leaving as Enquist, but he was obliged to bring the ships to the nearest land and thereby save both honor and people, as did the commander of the "Donskoy" Lebedev!

        By the way, yes! He hid in the darkness, but he was obliged to remember that the sun rises in the morning. I could have plotted a course in advance a couple of hours from the ground, so that there was at least somewhere to be thrown out.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 25 May 2021 17: 56
          +2
          That rare case when I absolutely agree with you.
          hi
      2. Avior
        Avior 24 May 2021 23: 26
        +3
        in the morning there was fog and a chance that the Japanese would lose them.
        About 9 a.m. 30 minutes. In the morning, the veil of thickening fog, covering the horizon ahead in our course, suddenly rose and an extraordinary sight opened up for our ships: the way forward north to Vladivostok was blocked by a Japanese squadron consisting of all the battleships and cruisers with which we had withstood the mortal battle the day before. From the flanks and from the rear, we have already seen detachments of cruisers and coastal defense ships with destroyers hiding behind them.

        As long as the corridor between the enemy units remained open in front, we obediently walked along the only possible path. But now, when the veil of fog with the morning rays of the sun had risen, we saw that this direction was also blocked, since from the north a column of ships was advancing towards us in formation of the front, which included all the main forces of Admiral Togo. Our detachment of five ships turned out to be enveloped from all sides of the horizon by an iron ring of the entire Japanese combat fleet.
        1. Trapperxnumx
          Trapperxnumx 25 May 2021 10: 39
          +2
          Quote: Avior
          in the morning there was fog and a chance that the Japanese would lose them.

          It seems to me that hoping for fog in such a situation is quite ... naive ...
          1. Avior
            Avior 25 May 2021 23: 54
            +1
            and what could he do? he had no afterthought ...
            And so at least some chance that the Japanese will either lose or leave.
        2. rytik32
          rytik32 25 May 2021 23: 22
          +3
          Quote: Avior
          in the morning there was fog and a chance that the Japanese would lose them.

          To get lost it was necessary as a minimum not to go NO23 - it was easy to read.
          1. Avior
            Avior 25 May 2021 23: 56
            -1
            We all know everything well in hindsight.
            While the fog was, he tried to hide, following the order.
            Maybe this was not the best choice.
  5. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 24 May 2021 19: 44
    0
    There is such a thing as "Justified Risk". For example, Nebogatov in his squadron, faced with a Japanese squadron, takes a fight. Attention to the question - what are the chances not only to win, but in general to cause some kind of serious harm to the enemy? On old ships, with artillery gunned down. Yes, especially considering the level of training of sailors and officers in the Russian Navy. Let me remind you that the admiral who ordered to put on SUBMARINES, not French electric spark plugs, but Russian WAX, was not an admiral in the Imperial Japanese Navy (I remind you that Japan only recently scrambled out of the dense Middle Ages), not in the Italian Navy (there is idleness and indifference - the norm ), and in the Russian fleet. By the way, the commander of the Emerald, who developed full speed and escaped from the Japanese squadron ... managed to land the Emerald aground, and without even really trying to remove it from the aground, blew it up ... This is, by the way, about the quality of the commanders. And it was not the sergeant major or the "conductor" who said this, but the ADMIRAL. This is the quality of the fleet. So, you have outdated ships with shot artillery, the Japanese squadron just kicked out your squadron so badly that it turned out to be Sinop, but on the contrary, IN YOUR EYES ... I mean, your officers and personnel are clearly suppressed by the unpunished destruction of your NEW ships of exactly that here is the squadron that rolled out in front of you .... Your actions. These are yours who so condemn Nebogatov. Yes, moreover, the crews on your ships do not particularly want to fight ... Your actions.
    You see, there is such a thing as "justified risk". You can take a risk and even sacrifice yourself, your subordinates and mate if there is a chance to inflict at least some serious damage on the enemy. You can fight in the minority if skills and performance characteristics allow.
    Do not surrender to Nebogatov, he cannot change the course of the war. Moreover, I do not think that on my old ships, with sailors far from the best training, Nebogatov would have achieved more than Rozhdestvensky achieved on the NEW ships. (And Rozhdestvensky achieved a duli with poppy seeds). That is, if Nebogatov had gone to his squadron in battle, Admiral Togo would have used his ships as Mexican piñatas, as a manual for teaching his commendors to practice shooting.
    The ships are old, guns shot, as the author himself repeatedly points out. Crew training at skirting board level. What can you do? You are not sitting in a Zero with a 250kg bomb, and you don't have a chance to crash into a destroyer and possibly sink it at the cost of one pilot and one plane. You are not Saburo Sakai with a shot-off eye and a semi-paralyzed one who is looking for at least some enemy ship to sell his life at a higher price. You are not Panfilov's division near Moscow.
    You are not lying in a trench with a rifle and two grenades against the enemy's back, and you have no chance to sell your life for the price of 2-3 enemy soldiers. You are not the commander of 4x T-34s in 1941, which the Wehrmacht regiment was rushing to in 1941. You simply cannot sell your life at a higher price. Your squadron will simply and banally be shot from distances at which you will not even hit the enemy from your old, shot guns, your gunners are also crooked. You can't catch up with Togo's squadron, get close and get into close combat, your speed is slower. You and your people were simply and banally sent TO SLAUGHTER. What was clearly demonstrated to you the day before.

    YOUR ACTIONS? These are yours, who so boldly criticize Nebogatov. It is corny to be shot with impunity, to lose almost all personnel and ALL ships killed. (I mean, what you saw will happen to you with your own squadron the day before). A beautiful useless death. It will not change the course of the war, it will not bring losses to the enemy. Gothic. Like a falling cherry blossom petal. By the way, your sailors do not want to fight, especially after the carnage in which they participated and saw enough, and they represent their fate very, very clearly. And the fact that they will throw you overboard and surrender themselves is a very real chance.

    Your actions? Just put yourself on the local Nebogatov.

    "Everyone imagines himself a strategist seeing the battle from the side."
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 May 2021 20: 24
      +17
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      Let me remind you that the admiral ordered to put on submarines, not French electric spark plugs, but Russian WAX

      firstly, it's a bike.
      secondly, not wax, but stearic. :))))

      Quote: Baron Pardus
      YOUR ACTIONS? These are yours, who so boldly criticize Nebogatov. It is corny to be shot with impunity, to be lost killed almost all personnel and ALL ships.

      Turn around and leave. If you're lucky, to a neutral port. If not, go to the nearest bank and drown yourself like "Dmitry Donskoy". By the way, the loss of personnel on it, as well as the "Rurik" that died at Ulsan, did not exceed 30%
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 24 May 2021 20: 41
        -13%
        Okay, let's say. And what will you achieve by self-delusion? What did the German fleet achieve by self-flooding after WWI ?? What has the Portarthur squadron achieved by drowning itself? But nothing. Moreover, what the Varyag achieved, also drowning himself. The Varyag got a Japanese destroyer drowned, by the way the Varyag self-drowned so "successfully" that the Japanese raised it and put it into operation ... What will you achieve by self-flooding? But nothing. The result is the same. The complete defeat of Russia (which she long ago deserved with her thoroughly rotten tsarist regime at the head of a non-capitalist, semi-feudal country ...) in the Russo-Japanese War.

        You will not bring harm to that. Do not change the course of the war, you will suffer losses. What for? You see, there should be SENSE in everything. A beautiful but useless death "like an untimely fallen sakura petal" remains useless. You say, "Get away to neutral ports." How? The speed of the Togo squadron is higher. Just corny catch up and shoot. If you visually find the enemy, then he VISUALLY found you. You don't have a big handicap. I don't think that Togo would have let Nebogatov's squadron go far. No further than the bottom of the sea. They just wouldn't have time.

        30% loss. And how many of them were on Alkeksandra and on Weakened? The lost ship The lost ship is divided by losses ..

        And yes, the soldiers and sailors did not want to fight, but for what? For landlords, breeders and fat priests who have lost their shores? For a thief in the royal family? For admirals / generals officials? FOR WHAT? For a beggarly, hopeless existence? And the revolution in Russia did not take place out of the blue. The government diligently prepared it by its disregard for the position of the average person (27% of literacy), and for the plundering of natural resources by capitalists, and at the head of the "Russian" companies were, as a rule, either the British or the French. So tsarism, at the head of non-capitalist feudalism, diligently prepared for itself both the Revolution and the 5th Column congratulating Mikado on the victory.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 24 May 2021 20: 55
          +13
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          Varyag got the Japanese destroyer drowned

          There was no such thing.
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          the Japanese raised it and put it into operation ...

          And not only him. But the attendants were thrown into this idiotic enterprise, mom do not cry. But these are their problems. Although the same Essen was able to flood so much that it has not yet been raised. The main thing is that they did not give up.
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          A beautiful but useless death

          Dead shame no shame.
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          You say, "Get away to neutral ports." How? The speed of the Togo squadron is higher.

          How? Like Enquist. Like Lebedev. Like Miklouho-Maclay. Like Shein. Someone was more fortunate, someone laid down their heads.
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          If you visually find the enemy, then he VISUALLY found you.

          This is true, but why make it easier for him?
          I repeat:
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          His detachment was discovered at five in the morning, was surrounded at about ten, surrendered at eleven. There was at least five hours to make a decision.

          By the way, Togo lost the Russian squadron twice during the battle.

          Quote: Baron Pardus
          for what? For landlords, breeders and fat priests who have lost their shores? For a thief in the royal family? For admirals / generals officials? FOR WHAT? For a beggarly, hopeless existence?

          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 24 May 2021 21: 25
            -11%
            Well, let's go in order, comrade.
            a) The dead have no shame. You tell me. And I will tell you that death makes sense ONLY if you or I) achieved SOMETHING with it. Traded your life for the life of AT LEAST one enemy. Then the dead have no shame. Only then. And if you, all of yourself so gothic tragic, decided to play with yourself and your people in piñata, giving the commanders of Togo more practice, then this is already masochism and not heroism.
            I will give a couple more examples of "Attack of the Dead" in WWI - yes, they died but the enemy was damaged. Defense of the Brest Fortress, - Yes, they died, but the enemy was damaged. The same Talalikhin and Gastello. Yes, the same artilleryman who in Syria, surrounded by the enemy, caused fire on himself. KILL but caused damage to the enemy. SUCH death is not in vain, in all other cases "Gothic and Tragic" is useless to die. A beautiful gesture, nothing more. Confused with it ZERO.
            I will quote the words of either Patton or Bradley (Emnip said this to Patton) "Your task is not to die for your country, but to make a tat so that other guys die for THEIR country."

            b) I have read more than once or twice that the Varyag drowned a Japanese destroyer? If this is not the case, then I apologize. I just talk about what I read (Chukchi is not a writer, he is a reader). If "Varyag" did not drown even a small destroyer, then its self-sacrifice is even more meaningless. I honestly DON'T KNOW how many yen IJN spent on raising the Varyag, I think that less than they would have spent on its construction. However, it was the Japanese who decided that it was cheaper for them. Raised raised, put into operation.

            c) Well, yes, some escaped. Some were caught and drowned. Some drowned themselves. I repeat, the sense was ZERO. Well interned your ship. ZERO damage was done to the enemy, the ship was lost in any case. Well, yes, it was possible to do "Scattered like sparrows from a falcon", well, yes, perhaps someone would have reached a neutral port and interned there. Well, how would that affect the course of the war? What losses would it inflict on the Japanese? Zero without a stick. "I surrendered without a fight" or "I fled the battlefield and surrendered to neutrals." the difference is small.

            d) You are ABSOLUTELY right when you said that Togo lost the squadron TWICE. Only the training of both officers and personnel in the RIF was even worse than in the IJN. The old battleships and cruisers would not have gone beyond the seabed. The speed is not the same. Well, not comme il faut to compare the Armored cruiser of the 3rd class "Emerald" with "Nikolai 1m" or "Monomakh" there in terms of speed ... By the way, Enqvist, EMNIP, commanded a detachment of CRUISERS. The fast-moving ones fled, again without causing ANY harm to the Japanese, the slow-moving ones either drowned themselves or were drowned by the Japanese without inflicting any damage on the enemy.
            By the way, Sheina's "Svetlana" also drowned herself after a battle with Japanese cruisers without causing any serious damage to the latter.
            I repeat, self-sacrifice only makes sense if you inflict damage on the enemy.

            e) You compared the Finns flyer. I understand that you are comparing a wretched misunderstanding called the Russian Empire with the most socially advanced country of the 20th Century - the Soviet Union? Are you comparing 30% literacy with free education and health care? Are you comparing the desire to scrub colonies to defending your own frontiers? Do I understand you correctly? The relationship between the Citizen / Subject and the country should be a two-way road. Otherwise it is masochism.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 24 May 2021 21: 59
              +15
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              Yes, they died, but the enemy was damaged.

              You may not have known, but the second squadron also inflicted some damage on the enemy.
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              Raised raised, put into operation.

              Yeah, in 1907.
              And the ships of Nebogatov, two months later, were firing at their own people during the operation to seize Sakhalin. Do you feel the difference?
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              Well interned your ship. ZERO hurt the enemy, ship lost anyway.

              Not a single interneed ship was handed over to the Japanese side after the conclusion of the peace. Except, perhaps, "Resolute", but the Japanese captured it in the Chinese port before Tsushima.
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              Armored cruiser of the 3rd class "Emerald"

              Mother is my woman! sad
              Okay, God bless her with the classification. "Donskoy" was ten years older than "Nikolai". "Ushakov" is of the same type as "Senyavin" and "Apraksin", but this did not prevent their crews from fulfilling their duty to the end.
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              the slow-moving ones either drowned themselves or were drowned by the Japanese without inflicting any damage on the enemy.

              You're wrong. "Donskoy", departing to the island of Dazhalet, achieved hits in "Naniva" and "Otova". The first fell behind at once.
              There were other hits that our cruisers achieved in that battle.
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              I repeat, self-sacrifice only makes sense if you inflict damage on the enemy.

              They did.
              By the way, you know what real losses the Germans had in the Brest Fortress, which you yourself cited as an example of resistance that has "meaning"?
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              You compared the Finov flyer

              It is written according to the same methodology that you applied.
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 24 May 2021 22: 45
                +2
                By the way, you know what real losses the Germans had in the Brest Fortress, which you yourself cited as an example of resistance that has "meaning"?

                A little off the naval theme, but the Germans were killed a little less than 500, wounded, presumably, 3 times more. For this, we must thank the commander of the district Pavlov, who ignored the order of June 18 on the withdrawal of units into the field. So our 2 divisions were in the fortress and were blocked and defeated.
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 24 May 2021 22: 51
                  +3
                  Here I am about that.
            2. Andy
              Andy 25 May 2021 12: 59
              +2
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              Armored cruiser of the 3rd class "Emerald"

              --
              and for the 5th grade do you have? reading this is unbearable
        2. bk0010
          bk0010 24 May 2021 21: 03
          +4
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          And what will you achieve by self-delusion? What did the German fleet achieve by self-flooding after WWI ?? What has the Portarthur squadron achieved by drowning itself?
          By self-indulgence, I will achieve that the time it takes for the enemy to commission my ships will increase so much that the war will end by that time. Or even exclude the possibility of re-using the ship altogether. You can drown yourself somewhere near the port in order to spoil the enemy, but this is already really hard.
        3. unknown
          unknown 25 May 2021 22: 48
          0
          The government was really preparing the revolution.
          The assets were withdrawn. The Bolsheviks nationalized industry, but in fact continued to pay debts. Gorgeous kidok. Some have thrown countries. Others threw it again.
        4. gsev
          gsev 26 May 2021 13: 20
          0
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          What will you achieve by self-flooding? But nothing.

          The enemy will not get a warship and artillery from it .. Even the price of scrap metal obtained from this ship is quite high.
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 24 May 2021 20: 29
      -1
      Dmitry, excellent speech of the lawyer. And most importantly, it's hard to argue
    3. ANB
      ANB 24 May 2021 20: 40
      +3
      ... Your actions.

      Brig Mercury.
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 24 May 2021 21: 40
        -5
        "Everyone imagines himself a strategist seeing the battle from the side."
        It is easy to be Nimitz at the keyboard at home, and even Nelson ... And even Guderian, Bradley, Ridgeway or Rokossovsky with Katukov
        .
        Well, let's go for Brig Mercury as they said in Odessa
        Reasons for the victory of Mercury

        When numerically comparing the military power of the Turkish ships and the Russian brig - 184 guns versus 20, not even counting the difference in caliber - the victory of the "Mercury" seems completely impossible, nevertheless, with a detailed analysis of the battle conditions, it can be concluded that the brig's victory is not incredible event. Compared to Turkish ships, given the battle conditions, "Mercury" had the following advantages [3]:

        Each of the Turkish ships could shoot only one side, while the "Mercury", having an enemy on both sides, could use all available guns. In addition, in close combat, Turkish ships could not use chase and retard cannons, of which there were probably about ten on each ship [approx. 2].
        The carronades, which were in service with the brig, were effective in close combat, and being smaller, they allowed shooting at a higher pace due to the relative ease of reloading.
        Throughout the battle, the Turkish ships could not take a traverse position relative to the "Mercury" both due to the brig's competent maneuvering, and due to the small distance - in order to avoid hitting the nuclei of one Turkish ship in another.
        When they were close, but slightly behind the Mercury, the ships, taking into account their contours, could only fire aimingly from eight to ten bow cannons, since in the side embrasures the cannons can turn no more than 15 degrees, while short carronades " Mercury "had more opportunities for aiming and could fire on the spars and rigging of the enemy. Thus, practically during the entire battle, with the exception of two episodes, the ratio of active barrels was 16-20 for the Turks versus 18 for the Russians.
        At close combat range, Turkish ships could hit the lower side of the "Mercury" only with shots from the lower decks.
        In the battle of Navarino, which took place a year and a half earlier, the entire Turkish fleet was destroyed, which significantly weakened the Turkish naval forces, and the crew of the Mercury encountered a much less experienced Turkish crew.

        So, Mercury had a better trained crew, both personnel and officers. In the Russo-Japanese War, it was exactly the opposite. The Turks have achieved only a few hits. The Russians have achieved a lot and very successful hits against the Turks. In Tsushima it was exactly the opposite. The Russians, thanks to both technical backwardness and poor training of the gunners, fired into the white light like a pretty penny. Well, it's hard to get an illiterate sailor to understand things like ballistics and trigonometry. He can fold 2 + 2 and can, and you expect from him the correct elevation angle of the tool. By the way, in JAPAN, at the time of the fall of the Tokugawa Shoganata, LITTLEness was HIGHER than in almost all European countries and the United States. You can't make a good sword out of clay. It is impossible to make a good artilleryman or mechanic out of an illiterate peasant ... In Japan, in 1900, a COMPULSORY free primary education was introduced (six-year period). Literacy in Japan in 6 was, EMNIP for 1900%. (In Germany 90%).
        1. ANB
          ANB 24 May 2021 21: 54
          +3
          ... So Mercury had a better trained crew, both personnel and officers. In the Russo-Japanese War, it was exactly the opposite.

          Here, in the next article, this is exactly what it is.
          And who was the doctor to the admirals of the Republic of Ingushetia?
          Why did KBCH7 drive me both on manual and automated calculations of the detection distance, and did I track all the fishermen with him?
          And according to the method of shooting the Japanese, the gunman did not need to know trigonometry, it was driven into him to clearly follow the commands of the shooting manager, without ad-libbing. Who prevented the admirals from training this?
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 24 May 2021 23: 20
            -4
            Forgive me, but if the admirals are ignorant, then it is the fault of the SYSTEM which made them admirals. Some of the Russian admirals during the Russo-Japanese period were eager to board the ship ... Drain the oil with carcasses. So the defeat of Russia in Russo-Japanese, and at the same time in WWI was predetermined by technical, scientific and social backwardness. The backwardness of which Stalin spoke in 1922. "We are 100 years behind the advanced capitalist countries, we must run this distance in 20 years, otherwise we will be crushed." Moreover, back in the 19th century, visiting Great Britain, one of the Goldstein members of the Goltropp dynasty (who ordered to call themselves the Romanovs) said "We are FOREVER behind ..."
        2. Usher
          Usher 24 May 2021 22: 57
          -2
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          By the way, in JAPAN, at the time of the fall of the Tokugawa Shoganata, LITTLEness was HIGHER than in almost all European countries and the United States. You can't make a good sword out of clay. It is impossible to make a good artilleryman or mechanic out of an illiterate peasant ... In Japan, in 1900, a COMPULSORY free primary education was introduced (six-year period). Literacy in Japan in 6 was, EMNIP for 1900%. (In Germany 90%).

          It was not schoolchildren who fought, what you said was about children, but the sailors were trained in the 80s. Just out of logic. You said about 1900, that is, in your opinion, 14 year old boys fought?
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 24 May 2021 23: 13
            -2
            I already wrote that at the time of the fall of the Tokugawa Shoganate in Japan, the percentage of literate people was HIGHER than in MOST European countries, and this statistics only improved. EMNIP was second only to Prussia. But there, with the education since the time of Frederick, everything was in openwork. Let me remind you that the Tokugawa shoganath was covered with a copper basin in the 17th century. In 1886, a law was passed in Japan according to which EVERY child was OBLIGED to study at least 4 years in school. Is free. So it was those who were 1905 years old that Fought in 20. Those who received this free education. The results are obvious. Rather on the water .. (or under water). An uneducated peasant cannot competently maintain a long-range cannon, or electronics or mechanics. It just can’t "And I fight for a year to at least drive a charter and a letter into a recruit" - Quote from "Port Arthur". By the way, at the same time, the recruits in the RUSSIAN army were so undernourished in civilian life that they had to be specially FEEDED. There was no such shame ANYWHERE. Even the British colonial troops were not recruited from starving dystrophics ... And you want victory from SUCH personnel? Undernourished, emaciated, illiterate and untrained. You can't make a good sword out of clay.
            1. Usher
              Usher 24 May 2021 23: 18
              -2
              Quote: Baron Pardus
              I already wrote that at the time of the fall of the Tokugawa Shoganate in Japan, the percentage of literate people was HIGHER than in MOST European countries, and this statistics only improved. EMNIP was second only to Prussia. But there, with the education since the time of Frederick, everything was in openwork. Let me remind you that the Tokugawa shoganath was covered with a copper basin in the 17th century. In 1886, a law was passed in Japan according to which EVERY child was OBLIGED to study at least 4 years in school. Is free. So it was those who were 1905 years old that Fought in 20. Those who received this free education. The results are obvious. Rather on the water .. (or under water). An uneducated peasant cannot competently maintain a long-range cannon, or electronics or mechanics. It just can’t "And I fight for a year to at least drive a charter and a letter into a recruit" - Quote from "Port Arthur". By the way, at the same time, the recruits in the RUSSIAN army were so undernourished in civilian life that they had to be specially FEEDED. There was no such shame ANYWHERE. Even the British colonial troops were not recruited from starving dystrophics ... And you want victory from SUCH personnel? Undernourished, emaciated, illiterate and untrained. You can't make a good sword out of clay.

              Yes, I agree, I just clarified, you wrote specifically about 1900. I asked. Tsarist Russia is still an education.
            2. ANB
              ANB 24 May 2021 23: 52
              +3
              ... And you want victory from SUCH personnel?

              Was the gunboat personnel recruited in another country?
              Or is it all the same in the commander?
        3. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 24 May 2021 22: 57
          +3
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          So, Mercury had a better trained crew, both personnel and officers.

          And you, justifying Nebogatov, do not see any parallels with Stroynikov?
        4. ANB
          ANB 24 May 2021 23: 22
          +1
          ... nevertheless, with a detailed analysis of the battle conditions, it can be concluded that the brig's victory is not an incredible event

          Did the commander of Mercury know about this when he refused to surrender the ship?
          Although Nebogatov handed over ships, not ships. And that's it.
        5. unknown
          unknown 25 May 2021 22: 56
          -1
          The history of Japan is fake.
          In one old, already closed LJ there is an article "Japan is a country with a painted sun".
          The real history of Japan - since 1867. Before RYAV, only 37 years old.
          State from scratch. Elite - from scratch. People from the Polynesian and Macronesian tribes. From scratch.
          Industry - from scratch. Language - from scratch. Create a language. Prepare teachers.
          Train ALL population. Not funny. Modern Japanese people teach it up to the age of about thirty.
          Modern German was created in 1901.
          The Germans were able to completely switch to the new language only during the WWII.
          And these are the Germans.
    4. bk0010
      bk0010 24 May 2021 21: 00
      +8
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      Your actions?
      I start thinking before the morning comes. It dawns on me that the enemy can seek me!

      And where will they most likely be looking for me? On the road to Vladivostok! Conclusion - I do not want to go there. And I would have sailed somewhere other than Vladivostok.
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 24 May 2021 22: 32
        -5
        Logically, there is no dispute. BUT
        a) There was an order - to go to Vladivostok or Port Arthur. Do not give up, to China, or to the Philippines, namely to Vladivostok or Port Arthur ..
        b) Yesterday you saw enough of how your fleet was melted like blind puppies. Outright. The defeat is like in Sinop, only the other way around. Will you be able to make sense after such a shock? Nebogatov is NOT Admiral Makarov. Moreover, your ships are old (Rozhdestvensky had new ones, but it didn't help them, they gurgled for a sweet soul). It's one thing to rearrange the models at the headquarters, another thing "Under fire, imposing full underpants, yelling" One after another, join the bayonets "(Quote from" Schweik ").
        c) You will be sacrificed. You have no connections like Rozhdestvensky. If you do not go to Vladivostok / Port Arthur, you will be accused of ignoring the order and disobeying (Riot) and cheating. Surrender is also a supportive one.
        1. bk0010
          bk0010 24 May 2021 22: 49
          +6
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          The order was - to go to Vladivostok or Port Arthur
          Seriously? Is it okay that Port Arthur was handed over in January, and Tsushima was in May? And the order was given a year ago, it will wait another month.
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          Will you be able to make sense after such a shock?
          Must. He was fed and prepared for this all his life. He's an admiral.
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          It will be you who will be sacrificed
          That’s generally shit. Not because he is a hero, but simply not before. I'll hide in Argentina.
          1. Baron pardus
            Baron pardus 24 May 2021 23: 30
            -3
            You seem to be right in saying "he is an Admiral." But did they prepare him for all this. Looking at his biography - NO. It was a clean staff officer, moving models and waving pieces of paper. Look at his biography. You can be a good staff officer, competent in his business, and not even steal, but at the first 6-inch shell that whizzed nearby, "put on full underpants"

            "The general adored when they were counting on the First Second, he had two moneymakers at home, which he lined up in a row and they shouted to him ... First ... Second ... There were many such generals in Austria ..." - Jaroslav Hasek

            If Makarov were in his place, everything would be different. Moreover, if in the place of Rozhdestvensky Makarov everything would have been different, I think that Tsushima would have lost anyway (Makarov could hardly have fully compensated for those lagging behind and poor training of personnel), but the Japanese fleet would have crawled from the battlefield to all fours, licking wounds and far from being in full force.

            And you will first run to Argentina from the Japanese captivity. And what kind of shisha are you in Argentina, (Where do mulattos in white pants walk, and many wild monkeys live in the forests, just like in Brazil) will you live?
            1. Navigator_50
              Navigator_50 25 May 2021 09: 28
              +3
              Be in his place Makarov S.O. the result would have been the same ... The defeat at Tsushima! The difference is in detail (not significant). Neither the upper command staff, nor the middle command personnel, nor the lower ranks were ready for a battle with an enemy who fired excellently, had an advantage in speed ... on their territory (!) Next to Japan (homeland, if cho for them) ...
              The military is divided into two groups:
              - Some take it under the hood and run to their subordinates to perform .. (in peacetime they serve well);
              - Others are a smaller part of them, they study military affairs, in addition to regulations, and strive to complete the assigned task with the least expenditure of manpower, funds and time ..
              Under the tsar-priest, only nobles served as officers .. The service of the nobles was going well.
              Why did Tsar Peter Alekseevich write in the charter that lowering the flag means deprivation of belly and property? Because the nobles could not be driven onto the ships .. The tsar had to take the ax in his hands .. and build ships, and chop off heads .. well, beards along the way ...

              Selection to the naval corps did not require talents. (Pedigree and that's it) .. Serve and fulfill!
              Here, after all, another "secret is buried" - in the Crimean War RIF and RIA were also defeated. And after 50 years Tsushima ... THE FLEET WAS NOT Fighting - these years ... The quality of personnel, teaching methods, training remained "from the time of Ochakov and the conquest of the Crimea."
              Landmark - heroes: Ushakov F.F., Nakhimov P.S., Kornilov V.A., Istomin V.I., Lazarev M.P. etc.
              "To take an example!", "To act like Nakhimov .." (in the infantry "in Suvorov style") - the basis of moral training ... (and the midshipmen - "a little thought - heroes, but everyone was killed .. yes 50 years of war no .. we will serve up to retirement, as "grandfathers") That Rozhdestvensky ZP, that Nebogatov NI (they served 40 years (!) - but now this is nonsense! (in peacetime) - let me remind you - the 19th century. ...
              Outcome: We will win all, forward !!! During this time, KNOWLEDGE changed, a new fleet went to sea, new tactics, new weapons, etc., but physics and other sciences were not taught in the Naval Corps - they trained combat officers! (navigators, separately and mechanics - for the second grade were numbered).
              It was not in vain that shipbuilding engineers were sent from 2TOE to help those who got off the masts with sails - the Mars fleet. The 1901 gunnery textbook of the Baltic training detachment contains 4 types of projectiles: NUCLEUS, armor-piercing, semi-armor-piercing and high-explosive (sic). These spare ones were used to complete the 2TOE (there were no others). Everyone was counting on an easy walk to the new colonies .. China, Korea, "God willing" Japan .. (there was a landing plan). God gave .. We looked at Japan.

              That's right, writes Baron Pardus:
              ,,,, "The general adored when they were counting on the First Second, he had two moneymakers at home, which he lined up in a row and they shouted to him ... First ... Second ... There were many such generals in Austria ..." - Yaroslav Hasek ,,,,
              And Rozhestvensky Z.P. he loved to give a messenger in the ear .. (maybe someone else ..) Kuropatkin complained that corporal punishment was banned in the RYAV, so there was nothing to raise the spirit of the soldiers ..
              "Let's go on the coat, and come back shorn"! Something like that..
              And Nebogatov N.I. should have given the command to destroy the ships?
              And stop writing fairy tales about the Kingston and their discovery! Kingston is an intake device with a valve that supplies water to the main systems of the ship, but not to the COMPARTMENTS. You can destroy the pipeline and water will flow inside .. only without pumps .. by gravity. two hundred tons per hour, depending on the precipitation, etc. (why without pumps, but because the dynamos will stand, the boilers must be stopped .. steam off ... Well, the ship will sink for several hours .. and will not sink .. And the Japanese will land and raise their flag ...
              And there were no people who wanted to get a "bloody massacre", neither on the bridge, nor on the decks ..
              With regard to artillery preparation - everything was according to the approved regulations and rules .. "from the time of Ochakov and the conquest of the Crimea" .. and to retreat from the highest approved documents - it is easier to surrender to the Japanese. All performed the service properly.
              1. unknown
                unknown 25 May 2021 23: 00
                0
                Yes, there was no superiority in speed.
                S.V. Balakin "The Triumphants of Tsushima". "Fuji" did not go more than 15 knots during the RYAV years.
                SV Balakin "Armored cruisers of the" Asama "type." Azuma "in the years of the RYAV had a LONG course of 15 knots.
                1. Navigator_50
                  Navigator_50 26 May 2021 13: 31
                  +1
                  Well, you understand that we are talking about squadron moves? And not about the most technically possible? Otherwise it will be a herd, not a squadron ..
              2. gsev
                gsev 26 May 2021 13: 34
                0
                Quote: Shturman_50
                And Rozhestvensky Z.P. loved to give a messenger in the ear .. (maybe someone else ..)

                Rozhestvensky did not execute any of his subordinates during the campaign. Nevertheless, in a hopeless battle, he was able to maintain discipline. Compare this with the mass surrender of Red Army soldiers in 1941 -1942, despite the special departments and broad rights of commanders to shoot subordinates.
                1. Navigator_50
                  Navigator_50 27 May 2021 07: 35
                  -1
                  And you will not tell how long after the start of the battle Z.P.R. left his post? Was it not when he realized that it was already hopeless ... and did not begin to maintain any discipline - having withdrawn himself from the command of the squadron?
                  Yes, and what does Nebogatov's squadron have to do with the Red Army soldiers of 1941-1942?
                  1. gsev
                    gsev 29 May 2021 00: 13
                    0
                    Quote: Shturman_50
                    and did not begin to maintain any discipline - having withdrawn from the command of the squadron?

                    And how can a seriously injured person command? After being wounded at the beginning of the battle, Rozhdestvensky could only move on a stretcher.
                    1. Navigator_50
                      Navigator_50 29 May 2021 09: 28
                      -1
                      Read VI Semyonov, who was there all the time ... ZP Rozhdestvensky's stretcher. put only in a Japanese port for delivery to a hospital .. Well, a captured VIP person (!), zhezh .. And on ships, on ladders .. they also "lowered" to the destroyer. ... And he clearly understood everything .. And he admitted it at the trial.
                      1. gsev
                        gsev 29 May 2021 15: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Shturman_50
                        Well, captivated VIP person (!), Zhezh.

                        He was wounded and shell-shocked. Even according to the charter of Peter 1, the wounded could not be charged with cowardice and blamed for actions after his injury.
                      2. Navigator_50
                        Navigator_50 1 June 2021 08: 40
                        0
                        Indeed .. Commendable caution .. From one destroyer to another and taken prisoner .. this is with a squadron fighting nearby .. A naval commander .. Of course, they could not impute, but imputed on the court, and in battle? Why did the Yevon headquarters, with or without him and all the documents, not fight? After all, they took him off the Suvorov and rescued him as the chief commander of the squadron? bully One-piece MGSH RIF ...
              3. Navigator_50
                Navigator_50 27 May 2021 08: 24
                0
                You say to execute ...
                Can you compare the dates of Tsushima and the date of the problems with the battleship Potemkin?
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 25 May 2021 18: 36
            +2
            Quote: Baron Pardus
            It was a clean staff officer, moving models and waving pieces of paper. Look at his biography.

            Only in your fantasies. For more than 30 years of service, he held a purely staff position for only one year from 1895 to 1896.
      2. ANB
        ANB 24 May 2021 23: 58
        +3
        ... Surrender is also a supportive one.

        Since Peter 1, this part of the charter has not changed. For the descent of the flag - death and shame. Failure to follow an order is not disobedience. The analysis takes into account the circumstances.
        In the infantry, captivity was permissible. Delivery of the ship - no. Nebogatov went to the navy in vain. I would serve myself in the infantry. He wore boots and did not blow his mustache.
        1. Navigator_50
          Navigator_50 25 May 2021 09: 40
          +2
          On the RIF boots are part of the uniform .. and officers and lower ranks ..
      3. Navigator_50
        Navigator_50 28 May 2021 12: 26
        0
        Right! The junior flagship could not and had no right to cancel the order to Vladivostok.
        As well as how to take the remnants of the squadron to neutral ports or throw ships ashore ...
  6. Pilat2009
    Pilat2009 24 May 2021 21: 02
    +1
    Quote: Baron Pardus
    managed to land the Emerald aground

    Did you know that in the absence of radar, echo sounder and GPS it is very easy to run a ship aground? What has recently been demonstrated by a cruise ship equipped with all these personal belongings?
    1. Avior
      Avior 24 May 2021 23: 05
      +3
      What has recently been demonstrated by a cruise ship equipped with all these personal belongings?

      this was demonstrated by the captain of this liner with a shout
      - Girls, look how I can!
      smile
    2. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 24 May 2021 23: 34
      -8
      Are you comparing the training of a cruise galoshe captain and a battleship captain? Some Italian cruise liner captain managed not only to sink the liner, but at the same time to threaten a lot of people. But he was "Captain".
      And about the Emerald, one can say only one thing, instead of trying to remove the cruiser from the shallows, the captain panicked and blew up the ship. EMNIP is described by Novikov Priboi, when sailors from Izumrud "incidentally" drove a herd of cows ...
      I repeat once again - to escape to neutral ports or self-drown closer to the coast without causing any damage to the enemy, and simply surrender without causing any damage to the enemy - ONE AND THE SAME.
      1. ANB
        ANB 25 May 2021 00: 03
        +6
        ... I repeat once again - to escape to neutral ports or self-drown closer to the coast without causing any damage to the enemy, and simply surrender without causing any damage to the enemy - ONE AND THE SAME.

        For civilian and infantry, yes, it makes no difference.
        For the Navy - yes. And big.
        This item was also transferred to the Ship Regulations of the USSR Navy.
        In February 1917 people like Nebogatov merged the state. Well, the Bolsheviks took power and, in fact, saved Russia.
        1. Baron pardus
          Baron pardus 25 May 2021 00: 13
          -4
          Excuse me, I'm sorry, sir, I have a rather distant understanding of the fleet, except for the performance characteristics of ships and weapons. Nobody served in my fleet, from the word at all. One grandfather is a tankman, the other is a border guard, Dad is a gunsmith in the Air Force, and an uncle is a communications officer, a lieutenant. Well, in short, all of me served either in the Soviet Army or in the Air Force. He himself served in the US Army as a military medic (field Medic). So I don’t know the charter of the Russian Navy. I just think that a beautiful death is an absurd death. You can sacrifice your squadron if you manage to sink the enemy cruiser at least. But Nebogatov had chances for it zip and none. And considering how "most of the sailors and even some of the officers wanted to fight for the emperor," Nebogatov had a chance to be thrown overboard by his own crew. And these chances were small, but the Japanese had more chances to sink at least one cruiser.

          Well, liberals everywhere and always have been agents of entropy and destruction. Liberalism is a social cancer of society, AIDS and stroke in one. It is enough to see what the German liberals did in WWI and what they doomed the country to, what shame, what poverty and despair. Themselves, by the way, without suffering at all. Doesn't it look like anything? Doesn't it remind anyone? For example, the Russian liberals, who "groaned about the plight of the serfs," but did not release their serfs, did not stop flogging in the stable (while honoring Voltaire). However, modern Russian liberals are no better. From the word at all. Modern American liberals are no better either ... Liberalism is the same everywhere - the disintegration and destruction of one's own country, culture, traditions and foundations.

          The completely legitimate development of bourgeois capitalist society ... There is only one way out, as we know, what Lenin, Stalin and Mao teach us.
          1. ANB
            ANB 25 May 2021 00: 18
            +4
            ... I just think that a beautiful death is an absurd death. You can sacrifice your squadron if you manage to sink the enemy cruiser at least. But Nebogatov had chances for it zip and none. And considering how "most of the sailors and even some of the officers wanted to fight for the emperor," Nebogatov had a chance to be thrown overboard by his own crew. And these chances were small, but the Japanese had more chances to sink at least one cruiser.

            All for boats, ships blown up / flooded. The charter has been completed.
            True, in such cases, the commanders usually remain on the bridge.
            Well, and not even trying to take the fight, it's not really all the same.
            1. Baron pardus
              Baron pardus 25 May 2021 00: 29
              -5
              It takes DECISION. And Nebogatov, unlike Rozhdestvensky, although he did not personally beat the sailors in blood, he was a staff officer and a logistic officer, and did not have the decisiveness to take such actions. It happens. A person can be an excellent shabist, a supplier (not even steal), a chief for "Combat training" and get confused in a combat situation. It happens... . But here it is already necessary to ask WHO put him in the position of squadron commander and not "chiefs for support" or even "Chief for combat training of the squadron" (by the way, he coped with this position in the Baltic Fleet, he was the DEP chief for artillery training there) ...

              And, to be honest, all this self-indulgence of the Russian fleet is becoming monotonous.
              1. ANB
                ANB 25 May 2021 00: 47
                0
                ... It takes DECISION. And Nebogatov, unlike Rozhdestvensky, although he did not personally beat the sailors in blood, he was a staff officer and a logistic officer, and did not have the decisiveness to take such actions. It happens. A person can be an excellent shabist, a supplier (not even steal), a chief for "Combat training" and get confused in a combat situation. It happens...

                Nebogatov came to the fleet. And the Charter should have known from youth.
                It was supposed to execute him.
                And the pardon showed the attitude of the tsar and others to the Charter and Russia.
                By the way, since he was in charge of the BP in the Baltic, what new methods of training gunners and fire control were not introduced to him?
                1. Baron pardus
                  Baron pardus 25 May 2021 00: 56
                  -5
                  It was necessary to execute those who started this nafig unnecessary war, and managed to lose it, and not just lose, but to be utterly crushed by tiny Japan, which only crawled out of feudalism. brigantines, caravels and frigates ... You can say as much as you like that Japan was "fed" by the British and the Americans. But the command of the Japanese squadron was not the British and the Americans, but the Japanese. The guns and the vehicles were not the British and the Americans, but the Japanese. It was necessary to execute those who plundered everything in the navy and in the army (the Grand Dukes). To the wall it was necessary to put those who gave the country at the mercy of foreign capital and companies, those who brought the country to 27% literacy and the inability to equip itself even with rifles and machine guns. Of course, it is easier to put Nebogatov against the wall, only the problems would not be solved by the word at all.
                  By the way, Nebogatov was promoted to Counter Admiral, EMNIP for his service in the Arillery Training Unit of the Baltic Fleet. The problems are not in Nebogatov, but in the SYSTEM. And the System rots from the head. From the "elite" of society.
                  Nebogatov, by the way, showed at least some kind of decisiveness when he returned to Russia, knowing that there would be a tribunal. But he could have stayed in Japan or escaped to Brazil or Argentina.
                  1. ANB
                    ANB 25 May 2021 01: 05
                    +1
                    ... But he could have stayed in Japan or escaped to Brazil or Argentina.

                    Who needed him there?
                    All of you correctly write about RI, but absolutely in vain are you trying to justify Nebogatov.
                    He knew perfectly well what he was supposed to do according to the Charter, but he lowered the flag anyway. And even a whole squadron, albeit not full and shabby.
                  2. ANB
                    ANB 25 May 2021 01: 07
                    0
                    ... To the wall it was necessary to put those who gave the country at the mercy of foreign capital and companies, those who brought the country to 27% literacy and the inability to equip itself even with rifles and machine guns.

                    We put it a bit later.
              2. ANB
                ANB 25 May 2021 00: 49
                +1
                ... headquarters and logistics

                I was not too lazy to jinx on the wiki. Nebogatov also commanded the cruiser.
                So not all his life he was a logistician and staff officer.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 25 May 2021 11: 59
                  +2
                  Quote: ANB
                  I was not too lazy to jinx on the wiki. Nebogatov also commanded the cruiser.
                  So not all his life he was a logistician and staff officer.

                  So without serving on the ship, he would not have become an admiral. "Regulations on the naval qualification for officers of the fleet" 1885 will not allow this.
                2. Pilat2009
                  Pilat2009 25 May 2021 12: 10
                  +1
                  Quote: ANB
                  Nebogatov also commanded the cruiser.
                  So not all his life he was a logistician and staff officer.

                  Not a single admiral has escaped service on ships, it is simply unthinkable, except for the General-Admiral, whose post was inherited
              3. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 25 May 2021 18: 31
                +2
                Quote: Baron Pardus
                And Nebogatov, unlike Rozhdestvensky, although he did not personally beat the sailors in blood, he was a staff officer and a logistics officer,

                Two statements in one sentence and both are sucked from the finger. ZPR did not have such a habit, and Nebogatov was neither a logistician, nor a purely staff one. An ordinary combat officer.
            2. Navigator_50
              Navigator_50 25 May 2021 09: 34
              -2
              You just don't understand what a ship is for a sailor ...
              Blow it up, and into the boats ourselves? Are there many such examples? "Korean" is not necessary - he was in the port ..
              1. Trapperxnumx
                Trapperxnumx 25 May 2021 13: 37
                +3
                Quote: Shturman_50
                You just don't understand what a ship is for a sailor ...
                Blow it up, and into the boats ourselves? Are there many such examples? "Korean" is not necessary - he was in the port ..

                Then why did they self-flood Rurik? Why didn't you give up? Why did the same Donskoy crawl out of everything with what he could only save the crew and not surrender his ship to the enemy? Maybe it’s just that you don’t understand what a ship is for a sailor, if you consider the surrender of warships to be the norm.
                1. Navigator_50
                  Navigator_50 25 May 2021 15: 53
                  -4
                  Do not confuse warm with soft ...
                  - The Japanese drowned "Rurik" with artillery fire .. and when it began to sink and stopped shooting, they approached and began to rescue the sailors .. (The Meiji story) is in Russian.
                  - Once again I ask: "Give examples when the crew got into the boats, and the ship BLASTED!" .. No need about those who ran aground or washed ashore on Sakhalin or there in b. Vladimir .. Or in Argentina. Tell me who blew up the ship and left on boats ... And there is no need for fairy tales about the Kingstones ...
                  1. Trapperxnumx
                    Trapperxnumx 25 May 2021 17: 01
                    +5
                    Rurik was damaged by artillery fire. The rudder and all the artillery were out of order on him and he could no longer defend himself. After that, the kingstones were opened on the cruiser and the team began to leave the ship. Of course the Japanese will claim that they drowned him with artillery fire. But the facts say that the cruiser began to perish precisely after the discovery of the Kingstones. This time.
                    And I did not assert that the crew should be put in boats, and the ships should be blown up. Your question is at the wrong place. These are two.
                    And thirdly, if for you the delivery of relatively serviceable warships is the norm, then I have nothing to discuss with you further. Just ask yourself - what would the Japanese have done in the place of our detachment?
                    1. Navigator_50
                      Navigator_50 27 May 2021 07: 54
                      0
                      You should read about the Kingstones ...
                      They are always open when the machines and boilers are running (!) ... Their purpose is to supply seawater into the ship's systems, and not inside the ship ... Usually they are of a poppet type, so that the outboard pressure presses them against the valve seat .. Close the kingston when there is a fault in the line or pump (for the period of repair). The lines can be switched to other kingstones (redundancy). Is it clear now?..

                      Nebogatov's detachment and the "remnants" from the first day of the battle - did not represent either combat value or significance for the outcome of the battle... Is it pointless to kill several thousand people? This means Podvig! Spiritual! I understand ... And I have two grandfathers (cousins) participated .. one in the infantry, the second in the navy (was in captivity) .. What a holiday, then my grandfather was preparing two reins .. to tie the brothers (!). As they go out into the yard and drink for breasts - who lost the war - the army or the navy ...
                      Well, there is nothing to discuss, do not discuss ... Just do not write nonsense, that's all.
            3. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 25 May 2021 12: 02
              +1
              Quote: ANB
              All for boats, ships blown up / flooded. The charter has been completed.

              It remains only to find whole boats - on the same "Eagle".
            4. Navigator_50
              Navigator_50 26 May 2021 13: 32
              0
              And, let's, in order (for simplicity - on the fingers):
              A ship for a sailor is a home, shelter and protection !!! .. That is, he sleeps, eats, works and rests there! And this for months and years! The sailor cares for and cherishes his ship, cleans, caulks, removes rust and paints, because his LIFE depends on it! Well, show me a tanker or a pilot there who lives - spends the night in a tank (on an airplane), cooks food, washes and performs various other tasks, such as shooting practice, bombing for several months?!? ..
              The ship protects the sailor, first of all, from the elements - the sea, wind, fire ... (Well, on a warship there is also armor protection, and it is not often thrown at it ... sometimes it just goes "on pins and needles" without firing! ..
              That is, do you think that you can throw protection - shelter, get into boats and blow up what saved you, protected and somehow guaranteed a return to your native shores?!?
              Now about the flooding. There is such a discipline - TUZhK (theory, structure and survivability of a ship (NK or PL). There are calculated things - stability, buoyancy, roll, trim, draft and much more .. A warship must remain afloat when 3 compartments are flooded (through holes ), and the submarine should emerge with two flooded compartments ...
              It was not me who came up with this ... Even under the tsar-father, calculations were made, ships were designed, different qualities of the projected ships were tested on models in the experimental pool .. Only this passed by the gentlemen of the sailors .. He is anti-lleristic, as the Great Nelson bequeathed - shoot, shoot to the last and maybe this last shot will make you a winner .. "Lucky-shot", "Lucky-shot" is the mantra of believers in chyudo !!
              A.N. Krylov invited ship mechanics to his laboratories, to the experimental pool, and demonstrated stability and unsinkability, but the combatant masters of the sailors were not interested in this. Moreover, after Tsushima A.N. Krylov was appointed to the chair of the ITC (after all, the fleet "disappeared", it is necessary to build a new one, according to science), but he held out there for a year and a half - he was dismissed from his post for "a rude attitude in conversations with members of the ITC." Yes, sss! How else to talk to them ...
              But, even before this shameful incident, warships were built with division into compartments by watertight bulkheads reaching the main deck, and even a longitudinal partition in the DP, the compartments were divided into two parts (left and right sides). Bulkheads were tested during construction on a slipway by filling the compartment with water and observing them for several hours (!). The number of bulkheads (transverse compartments) reached 10-11 (from the class of the ship). To go from one compartment to another, it was necessary to climb the ladder to the main deck and go down to the desired compartment. OVERLOOKING of water from compartment to compartment was EXCLUDED, except for damage in battle or other accidents ..

              Now let's move on to the Kingston. For the operation of ship, (ship) mechanisms, life support, fire safety, outboard water was needed ..
              For life support - latrines, washings, washing decks, showers, washbasins ..
              Fire protection system - protection against fires (again, for washing decks or compartments or rooms there) ..
              Artillery cellar irrigation system and, if necessary, complete flooding (seawater).

              But the main consumer of seawater was boilers and machines with desalination plants and refrigerators and other "warm boxes". Part of the hot desalinated water was given to the crew on bathing days (sometimes they also mixed in clean outboard water) ...
              So the kingstones were in those compartments where there were seawater consumers - the boiler room with refrigerators, etc. Engine rooms, dynamos compartments .. from 4 to 8 pumps supplying sea water to the mains. The pump capacity is up to 600 cubic meters. at one o'clock. Therefore, we have from 4 to 8 kingstones (valves in the fence enclosures connected to the highways ...). Well, there were pumps for pumping bilge water overboard ..
              The sea does not have access to the inside of the ship - it is an ENEMY, like FIRE .. One tends downward, and the second upward ... The sea, penetrating inside, reduces the buoyancy, which is not less than 40% of the total displacement ... (From 12 thousand to 16 thousand - it is 5-7 thousand cubic meters of water must be taken on the ship. If we leave the pumps working, then it will be pumping for several hours ... yes in different compartments. If you destroy the pipelines, from the Kingstones, then the water will go by gravity - 50-60 cubic meters per hour (depends from the sediment and the filling level of the compartment) from each pump .. But it is necessary to extinguish the boilers (from the explosion), the dynamos will stop, well, there are donks .. Therefore, the warship cannot be flooded with these trickles ... faster ... But the crew fought for survivability - repairing holes, extinguishing fires, correcting damage ...
              Flooding through the kingstones is a FAIRY TALE ... They are isolated, and the diameter of the pipeline, well, a maximum of 300 mm will give nothing ... The ship will sink (taking into account the waterproof partitions and stopped mechanisms) for several hours, or may not sink at all. Of course, if you take into account the coal, which Z.P. Rozhestvensky overloaded the ships and reduced the buoyancy reserve .. then they will drown (!)

              A ship that has run aground, if it is impossible to remove it on its own and if there is no possible assistance, is left by the crew and explodes to destroy the remaining ammunition, guns, material values, etc. Something like that.
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 25 May 2021 18: 32
            +3
            Quote: Baron Pardus
            I have a rather distant understanding of the fleet, except for the performance characteristics of ships and weapons.

            Don't flatter yourself. You also don't know anything about the performance characteristics of ships :)))
        2. Navigator_50
          Navigator_50 25 May 2021 09: 41
          0
          Well, there should always be an ostracism ... morale ...
        3. Kayuk
          Kayuk 26 May 2021 17: 25
          +3
          Quote: ANB
          In February 1917 people like Nebogatov merged the state.

          I absolutely completely agree. Breaking the oath, the bylaws ... and no punishment. Generals, admirals and officials in 1917 thought similarly. This is where the roots of betrayal grow. I think this is what Nebogatov did. He betrayed all the dead officers and sailors of the 2nd TOE, who had fulfilled their duty to the end. Was led to the persuasion of the commander of the flagship BBO. "It is necessary to pity the Motherland, not the soldiers and sailors. The admiral is not a sister of mercy .... If I knew this, I would not go with you. Your admiral is a coward. Under the guise of sailors, he saves himself ..." Words a simple sailor V.F. Grandmother, the hero of Port Arthur, for the delivery of the squadron. It couldn't be better!
          1. Navigator_50
            Navigator_50 27 May 2021 08: 10
            +1
            Let me ask you how many officers shot themselves on the ships of N.I. Nebogatov's detachment. from the shame of surrender?
            1. Kayuk
              Kayuk 28 May 2021 12: 09
              0
              Quote: Shturman_50
              Let me ask you how many officers shot themselves on the ships of N.I. Nebogatov's detachment. from the shame of surrender?

              What does this have to do with it? I wrote, ... Breaking the oath, the Bylaws ... and no punishment. Generals, admirals and officials in 1917 thought similarly. This is where the roots of betrayal grow ...
              Nobody shot themselves, nobody suffered a worthy punishment .. The result is known. And the "Tsushima Syndrome" in our fleet has not been eliminated to this day, thanks to such "saviors of sailor souls". Yes, tough, but this is war.
              1. Navigator_50
                Navigator_50 28 May 2021 12: 17
                0
                That is, you would have shot yourself, but you did not surrender ...
                1. Kayuk
                  Kayuk 28 May 2021 12: 19
                  0
                  No need to get personal. It talks about the state of the fleet and the state.
                  1. Navigator_50
                    Navigator_50 29 May 2021 09: 33
                    0
                    Again, you do not understand ... It's about whether surrender is a shame for you, which can only be washed off with your own blood?
                    Here is a Japanese officer of that era doing hara-kiri (!), Bushido, panmash! And we have a Charter ...
                    1. Kayuk
                      Kayuk 31 May 2021 16: 38
                      0
                      Again, you do not understand ...

                      Yes it is you did not understand my comment and again go to the person. Let me explain to you once again: The system that developed at that time in the state left without punishment the violation of the oath, the Charter, etc. , and this impunity led to February 17, and the entries in the diary of the last emperor "Around treason and cowardice and deceit." The oath and the Charter do not provide for the method of suicide upon surrender. But for the surrender of an intact warship to the enemy, his commander or the elder on the ship at that time, the death penalty is threatened. The responsibility of junior officers is also provided, but again - not suicide. Now on the water of your flood, which you purposefully and successively ask, without delving into the essence of the answers. Bushido is a samurai's code, which provides for the suicide of the latter in cases where honor is disgraced, as well as the willingness to die for his master (emperor). You've probably heard the word "kamikaze"? The honor of an officer of the RIF and RIA consisted in self-esteem and respect for the dignity of others. You didn't have to kill yourself. If an officer disgraced himself, committed an out-of-the-ordinary offense, or a company of soldiers died or a ship was lost through his fault, then maybe someone himself chose this way of getting out of the situation, due to an acute sense of guilt, but this is not a duty, but a personal one. everyone's choice. A drunken brawl in a tavern and cowardice in combat are two different things. Although both are a misdemeanor for which one should be held accountable. So, according to A.V. Polutova, Soviet Admiral E.A. Behrens, a former senior navigator of the Varyag with the rank of lieutenant, recalled that returning to Russia, the officers of the Varyag believed that they would be brought to justice.
                      In general, the concept of an officer's honor is identical to that of the nobility, and a very important point must be taken into account, for a long time the Russian army and navy were staffed with officers from the nobility. There were cases when people from other social groups made a career in the army, but they were isolated. The nobility had a special ethics that sharply distinguishes them from other groups of society, it must be understood that a merchant or a peasant will not go to shoot because of the "ephemeral" concept of honor that is not entirely clear to them. These people were from different worlds.
                      It follows from this that each officer himself determined his guilt, the essence of the offense and his readiness to receive punishment for this. Prison or hara-kiri ...
                    2. Navigator_50
                      Navigator_50 1 June 2021 08: 33
                      0
                      Thank you for your frankness. There is enough detail about honor and dignity.
                      Only "kamikaze" here, as they say, "neither to the village nor to the city" ..

                      Bushido determined the actions of a Samurai warrior, who took an oath of allegiance to his Suzerain.

                      Our gentlemen also swore the EIV! And the charter was and "Code of punishments" .. Only before the entry of Nicholas in his diary for another long 12 years .. Maybe in the "Danish kingdom" everything rotted earlier? That means it was necessary to renounce ON TIME, and not when they had already asked their own.
                      But everything is clear ... The officers themselves determined everything and:
                      "I am aware of my guilt, measure, degree, depth ..
                      and ask me to send to the next war.
                      It would be nice if in July and, preferably, in the Crimea "(c) Not mine

                      So shta, what is the demand from a nobleman (officer)? ... What is the oath? ..
                      Although in the documents and "Regulations .." there was a section on military crimes.
                      Don't bother with the answer.
    3. Andy
      Andy 25 May 2021 13: 07
      +4
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      I repeat once again - to escape to neutral ports or self-drown closer to the coast without causing any damage to the enemy, and simply surrender without causing any damage to the enemy - ONE AND THE SAME.

      --
      bottom!! moreover punched
    4. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 25 May 2021 13: 32
      +7
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      I repeat once again - to escape to neutral ports or self-drown closer to the coast without causing any damage to the enemy, and simply surrender without causing any damage to the enemy - ONE AND THE SAME.

      Smart people have already told you several times that this is not the same thing and no caps will help you with this. It's one thing when you give up yourself. Then you need to be fed, clothed, shod, and guarded around you. You can even say that in this way you reduce his combat effectiveness.
      But if you surrendered together with a tank / ship / plane / cannon - that's another matter. Especially if the hardware part is conditionally serviceable and, through light manipulations, can fight against your comrades and your country.
      So stop hysteria caps and just admit that you were wrong)
      1. Navigator_50
        Navigator_50 27 May 2021 08: 12
        -1
        Yes, the war is already over .... formalities remain. And old stuff like BBO was no longer needed anywhere ...
        1. Kayuk
          Kayuk 28 May 2021 12: 29
          +1
          Yes, the war is already over .... formalities remain. And old stuff like BBO was no longer needed anywhere ..

          Old BBOs? In the fleet since 1897-99? You bent it. The Scandinavians had the same types in the fleet until the 1960s. For the narrowness of the Gulf of Finland, the fjords of the Scandinavian Peninsula - this is the very thing.
          1. Navigator_50
            Navigator_50 29 May 2021 09: 45
            0
            Oops! What kind of gesheft the Japanese could produce .. We should have sold the trophy BBOs to the Swedes !!!
            Here they yawned .. Japs! However, it would have been expensive to drive.
    5. Navigator_50
      Navigator_50 28 May 2021 12: 47
      0
      Here, by the way, it's more interesting .. There is a version that gentlemen commanders (Novik, Izumrud), etc. very clearly assessed the criterion, which will allow them to justify desertion .. Lack of coal ...
      As there Napoleon - why the fortress was surrendered - there are several reasons - the gunpowder ran out ... Buonaparte said enough.
      So our sailors tried so that there was no coal left ... and nowhere to take! Here is a little bird! The "Izumrud" ran out of coal, the "Novik" too ... The last chips went to Shanghai, and so on. rest. They did not have time to take coal in 72 hours - they were interned ... and there is no war. Something like that.
    6. Navigator_50
      Navigator_50 29 May 2021 10: 09
      0
      On the "Izumrud" everything is even worse .. There was no longer coal ... The Kingstons were stranded with sand (from one side for sure) and, as a result, the machines would have to be stopped anyway ... You can try with an anchor and a verp, but. .. one anchor with an anchor-chain was dropped by Fersen when he was breaking away from the Japanese .. It was necessary to take off the extra cargo from the ship - shells from the cellars (and transport them on boats to the shore ... This is the same tsimes!), water from the boilers and wait for the tide ... And what to pour into the boilers and how to raise the vapors? We tried to recap while the machines were still working ... well, and then we had to end the "fancy show". The high commission went to the "Izumrud", found coal - 10 tons. Takshta a herd of cows for state money looks quite decent .. The costs of the crew's trek to Vladik had to be recouped .. Why, baron, was he supposed to feed for his own?
  7. Navigator_50
    Navigator_50 25 May 2021 16: 09
    -1
    And nothing that on a single ship of the RIF, and YaIF and the British did not have a radar, echo sounder and GPS? But after all, they went around half the world .. without landings on small ones ..
  • Bashkirkhan
    Bashkirkhan 24 May 2021 21: 05
    +5
    Quote: Baron Pardus
    Rozhdestvensky on NEW ships. (And Rozhdestvensky made a duli with poppy)

    What is this for a joke? Do you know the name of Admiral RIF?
    1. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 24 May 2021 23: 23
      -6
      Zinovy ​​Rozhdestvensky, an admiral whose fleet was torn by the fleet of Admiral Togo as a warmer Tuzik. It seems that it was the admiral who had the latest ships under his command (Unlike Nebogatov).
      1. ANB
        ANB 25 May 2021 00: 05
        +3
        ... Zinovy ​​Rozhdestvensky

        Rozhdestvensky is a Soviet poet. Robert.
        And the admiral is Rozhdestvensky.
        1. Baron pardus
          Baron pardus 25 May 2021 00: 16
          -3
          I beg your pardon, sorry, sir. Already since 1991, as in the United States, so sometimes I confuse surnames. You are, of course, absolutely right. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
      2. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 25 May 2021 12: 11
        +1
        Quote: Baron Pardus
        Zinovy ​​Rozhdestvensky

        The diagnosis is clear.
  • Usher
    Usher 24 May 2021 22: 46
    -1
    And what is the admiral for? For check? Why didn't you train personnel? Material preparation? Like I came, everything was like that, it's not me.
    1. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 24 May 2021 23: 36
      -2
      What is the pop, so is the parish. As the master is, such is the lackey. Yaka, the country still has terrorist attacks ... What a regime, well, such are the admirals ... The country itself in WWI could not provide itself with aircraft motors, not with artillery, not with machine guns, rifles.
      1. Usher
        Usher 24 May 2021 23: 46
        -1
        Quote: Baron Pardus
        What is the pop, so is the parish. As the master is, such is the lackey. Yaka, the country still has terrorist attacks ... What a regime, well, such are the admirals ... The country itself in WWI could not provide itself with aircraft motors, not with artillery, not with machine guns, rifles.

        They bought from Japan and Britain, which then threw on the loot)))
        1. Baron pardus
          Baron pardus 24 May 2021 23: 57
          -3
          Hopes for a "democratically advanced France" left the Russian Army without heavy artillery. The British took the grandmother for every Maxim that they made in Russia ... By the way, they did not make aircraft engines themselves from the word AT ALL.

          Like many teenagers in the USSR, I read Hasek, where he deservedly ridicules the "Triune" Empire. And then, after reading the literature, you start to go nuts. a) The rather backward Austria provided itself with rifles, machine guns, and heavy artillery and aircraft engines. b) They had literacy, EMNIP 85%. Well, further down the list. You compare it with the "God-rescued" RI under the leadership of Nikalashka kotomochitel, and you start to think that maybe the Austrians were not so bad at all ... By the way, speaking of education, the same Schweik (a man clearly not rich, without education and not from a good family) , speaks, writes and reads in Czech and German. By the way, sapper Vodicka also speaks both German and Czech, Hungarian does not want to learn from principle. Even the "stupid man" Doweling yells at the CZECH soldiers in Czech "I demand that you answer me in German". Another officer Wolf "Pretended not to speak Czech, but was sent to a company entirely consisting of Chekhov, immediately spoke Czech normally" ... I mean literacy in TWO (or three or more) languages ​​for Austrians - in general norm. And in R And God forbid that they know how to read and write in one language.

          By the way, Vykrest Feldkurat Katz is not chased by the Black Hundreds with shouts of "I sold the empire", and the officers do not shy away from keeping company with him .. The Dreyfus trials did not suit there either .... So you look at Hasek's books and you realize that the UG was not Austria Hungary, namely the Russian Empire ...
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 25 May 2021 18: 25
            +1
            Quote: Baron Pardus
            By the way, they did not make the aircraft engines themselves from the word AT ALL

            Not certainly in that way.
            http://xn--80aafy5bs.xn--p1ai/aviamuseum/dvigateli-i-vooruzhenie/aviamotorostroenie/aviamotory-rossijskoj-imperii/
      2. Navigator_50
        Navigator_50 25 May 2021 09: 36
        +2
        Absolutely right .. ZP Rozhdestvensky. the surname is spelled incorrectly by many ... Well, here it is strictly followed
        1. ANB
          ANB 25 May 2021 12: 47
          +1
          ... Rozhdestvensky Z.P.

          So I got up on my phone to remove the letter d from the surname :)
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 25 May 2021 15: 51
    +2
    Itself many times caught myself thinking that I personally do not feel any emotions about this surrender. Nothing.
    Precisely because you wrote. And most importantly, the surrender did not affect anything. At all.
    The most important thing is that even the passage of BOTH squadrons of Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov to Vladivostok, safe and sound, also did not solve anything. Because there was no sense from this at all.
    It made sense to make peace when the 2nd Squadron was somewhere in Madagascar. But it was necessary at least on land to patch up a couple of good victories. Before the fall of Port Arthur. But on land, the defeat was no less shameful. And the defense of Port Arthur did not decide anything either. During this time, Kuropatkin was pushed into such distant places that they had never been pushed so far.
    Complete mediocrity. Absolutely. No one was involved in the war. Therefore, the fleet received only positive aspects from this surrender. Sometimes you have to see the very bottom to understand at least something.
    Otherwise, they would have composed legends about some mythical exploits against the enemy.
  • Navigator_50
    Navigator_50 25 May 2021 16: 04
    0
    In fact of the matter..
    Admiral Rozhdestvensky Z.P. with all the headquarters and maps and strategic plans and other strategists did not land at N.I. Nebogatov, but rushed off into captivity to surrender? He conveyed through someone that the admiral was transferring command ... to the rest .. True, he realized that if he came to Vladivostok without a squadron, there would be consequences ... I had to surrender, but the destroyer was not blown up ..
    1. Navigator_50
      Navigator_50 27 May 2021 07: 58
      0
      And Nebogatov N.I. knew that it was he who was given command, and not the late Felkerzam?
  • Victor Leningradets
    Victor Leningradets 26 May 2021 12: 54
    +1
    All this is great for schoolgirls.
    And here is the war. There is an Oath and a Charter. You do not have the right to be fainthearted, especially as a commander. There is a chance - fight, hopelessly - drown. Otherwise, the infection of selfishness will creep through the armed forces and will begin to surrender under any pretext.
    So Nicholas II actually escaped from the army as the Commander-in-Chief.
    1. Navigator_50
      Navigator_50 27 May 2021 08: 21
      0
      You need to be able to fight ... And to fight skillfully ..
      "The enemy is entering the city,
      not sparing the prisoners ..
      Because in the forge
      there was no nail .. "

      Charter: 1. The boss is always right!;
      2. If the boss is wrong - see item 1;
      3. Serve according to the Charter - you will win honor and glory ...

      "... keep your head high and straight and be ready for immediate action .."

      "... a sailor must have a dashing, dashing and slightly silly, so that the authorities do not suspect that he understands something else .."
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 24 May 2021 20: 04
    +11
    From the first lines I learned the author's unique style :)))
    3-1 armored squad,

    Which squad?
    Colleague, you would at least read your "work" before laying out. Do not follow the example of some of the bronzed on this site. You and half of their merits (as well as erudition) are not observed.
    old-time

    Who?!!
    You would call a senior officer a "chief".
    1. Aviatika
      Aviatika 25 May 2021 17: 31
      0
      The old man's eye cut me too. But, tell me, that there was no reduction for a senior officer? And, if you know, were the abbreviations kapraz, kavtorang, kaptri adopted in the RIF - or is it workers 'and peasants' newspeak?
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 25 May 2021 17: 54
        0
        Quote: Aviatika
        And, if you know whether reductions were accepted in the RIF

        As far as I know, no.
        The officers had personal nicknames, but no more. Let's say Makarov is a grandfather, a beard.
        1. Aviatika
          Aviatika 25 May 2021 22: 48
          0
          Thank you for your feedback. Maybe you're right. In the old days, they liked to exaggerate and title. Slowly and respectfully. Thank you
  • vladcub
    vladcub 24 May 2021 20: 23
    +1
    "it turned out because a revolution was taking place in Russia", perhaps, I agree with the author. In conditions of anarchy, the emperor was more interested in how to maintain power?
    Indeed, then there was a "dawn of Russian liberalism" and the public had no time to think.
    We had about the same situation in the early nineties: the authorities had little or no control over the situation. The "liberal community" has no time to think and it is enough for one or several scribblers to let a duck like: "the admiral is for ours, and the government (the tsar) wants to sue him for this" and the orgy went and went
  • Constanty
    Constanty 24 May 2021 20: 35
    +1
    There was hope for exotic cruisers (armored cruisers of Argentina and Chile), but it did not materialize.


    In many studies, information can be found that this was due to the fact that Admiral Avilan demanded too much bribe.
    And even worse, these ships ended up in the Japanese navy - so the loss is double.
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 May 2021 20: 57
      +8
      Quote: Constanty
      In many studies, information can be found that this was due to the fact that Admiral Avilan demanded too much bribe.

      Is it? it seems that they were rolling such a barrel to Abaza, but so that they would not hear it on Avelan.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 May 2021 12: 15
      +2
      Quote: Constanty
      In many studies, information can be found that this was due to the fact that Admiral Avilan demanded too much bribe.

      In "Gangut" there was an article about "exotic cruisers". In short, everything fell through because the sailors pulled the blanket over themselves, got into the affairs of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, having no experience in this, and were unable to establish interaction with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. And the Foreign Ministry itself did not strain too much. The most successful combination fell through at the stage of selecting an intermediary country, the flag of which was to be carried by the purchased ships before the transfer to Russia.
      But in theory there was a good option: to use Montenegro. Russia would give her a loan to strengthen the fleet, neutral Montenegro would buy for itself what it could from the "exotic cruisers", staff them with "volunteers" (this practice already existed), and then, as in real life, would declare war on Japan and transfer the fleet would be under Russian command. smile
      1. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 25 May 2021 13: 45
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        But in theory there was a good option: to use Montenegro. Russia would give her a loan to strengthen the fleet, neutral Montenegro would buy for itself what it could from the "exotic cruisers", staff them with "volunteers" (this practice already existed), and then, as in real life, would declare war on Japan and transfer the fleet would be under Russian command.

        What an interesting multi-move ... What if Britain also uses this precedent to enter the war?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 May 2021 14: 19
          +2
          Quote: Trapper7

          What an interesting multi-move ... What if Britain also uses this precedent to enter the war?

          Rather, not for entry, but for the same sale - say, "Vaccanto" and "Occupanto".
          Why would the British go directly into a proxy war when they can make money from both sides?
        2. Aviatika
          Aviatika 25 May 2021 17: 34
          +2
          Montenegro was rightly characterized as a country where there are more claimants to the throne than inhabitants. You can't mess with brothers. The idea of ​​the Russian World will someday destroy Russia, as it did in WWI, when we stood up for the cereicidal Serbs for some hell.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 24 May 2021 23: 20
    +3
    Then the myth took on a life of its own. Having received a powerful foundation in Soviet times, it still exists today. Like, the poor admiral, with a suppressed will, in a desperate situation, saved the sailors. It is true that it remains outside the brackets - who made this situation hopeless?

    For the first time in my life I hear about such a myth. And it’s all the more strange to drag Soviet times here, even then they didn’t sympathize with anyone for surrender.
    1. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 25 May 2021 00: 03
      -2
      You are absolutely right. Novikov Surf in Tsushima describes this episode perfectly. That the man simply didn’t want to die, moreover, his staff didn’t want to, and the sailors didn’t want to, and this "idea of ​​philanthropy began to shine in the minds" and the fact that "the admiral is not a sister of mercy" they all decided to forget (Quotes from "Tsushima") More when one of the sailors began to threaten to open the kingstones, the other sailors told him "Just try - you will instantly fly overboard." So in Soviet propaganda this surrender was not encouraged, but was used to show that neither the sailors, nor even the officers and admirals wanted to die for the rotten tsarist regime that reeked of everything ...
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 25 May 2021 15: 53
        0
        In general, yes.
        1. Baron pardus
          Baron pardus 26 May 2021 19: 03
          0
          Yes, here many of themselves are building Nelson and Scheer, with Nimitz and Nakhimov at the same time. And sitting at home at a computer bravely chatting about "how it was necessary to fight, and then drown himself in boats or run to the shore, run aground and into boats." This one here and now, at home at the computer, everyone is so smart and brave and ready to build out of themselves 47 ronins, Panfilov and defenders of the Brest Fortress at the same time.
          If you quote them from Tsushima, you are unhappy. You show them the insanity and decay of the tsarist regime in Russia (by the way, Nikalashka kotomochitel in childhood spoke only ... in German, Goldstein, the Goltrop dynasty, however, never once did the Romanovs, in the heraldic reference books it was Goldstein Goltropskaya that was called, so these reference books were banned in Russia ). And this rotting was even more than what Hasek showed in his "Schweik" - they are also unhappy. When you try to explain to them that the personnel of Nebogatov were morally crushed after the defeat of the MAIN forces, they are unhappy.
          "To sink the ship, and into the boats" is the mantra. And how many undamaged boats remained on the ships is unknown. I think after the fight - a little. They poke me with the behavior of the commander of the "Izumrud", diligently forgetting that having safely escaped, Ferzen panicked, missed Vladivostok, landed the ship aground and, without waiting for the tide, without making any attempts to remove the ship from the shallows, ordered it to be blown up. We got there on foot, at the same time drove a herd of cattle ... The episode is described in "Tsushima" you tell people this - they are unhappy. "The charter speaks."

          The fact that they got involved in the war absolutely idiotically does not mention the charter. The regulations do not say that no one, neither the officers nor the lower ranks, really wanted to fight. The statute also does not mention the fact that no one, neither the officers nor the lower ranks knew how to fight (in contrast to Japan that crawled out of the dense Middle Ages). The fact that with 27% literacy, you simply do not have personnel to service something more complex than a mosinka, the charter also does not mention.

          But "Admirals canteen" deign to be unhappy when pointed out to them. You give them quotes "What is courage in modern combat is to properly service your mechanism, and I struggle for a year so that the charter and diploma can be hammered into a recruit." You tell them the living conditions in the "God-rescued crust-bakery" that the soldiers and sailors suffered so much from malnutrition in civilian life that the recruits had to be fattened up - in Japan, there was no such shame. But in Japan, in the Colonial troops of England and France, there was no such shame. They don't like it either.
          You tell them that the war was shamefully lost, regardless of whether you surrendered your ship to the Japanese, or drowned - they are also unhappy. They cannot give arguments confirming their point of view. I mean, the people think that if Nebogatov did not hand over your detachment, which was half old, then Russia could win ???? And the fact that the "battleships protected by the shores" for the battle in the open ocean were not adapted at all, it is somehow forgotten. That in "fresh weather" floods both the decks and towers and onboard batteries, that the Pacific Ocean, for a minute, is not the Baltic.

          They point to the example of the kan boat "Koreets". Sumptuously. Did Kahn sink the cannon boat that was firing black powder at least someone?
          Has any of the Japanese ships been seriously damaged? It seems that she didn’t drown, she didn’t even hit. Moreover, the Varyag, it turns out, also did not get anywhere, at least seriously. In the USSR I read that "Varyag" damaged Takachiho, Asama and drowned the destroyer. It turns out not. This is fully confirmed by the active participation of the allegedly damaged cruisers Takachiho and Asama, as well as other Japanese participants in the battle, in the subsequent events of the Russian-Japanese war, including shortly after the battle in Chemulpo. That is, Rudnev achieved NOTHING and suffered serious losses. But according to the charter, right?

          Rudnev was far from the worst commander. However, Uriu caused almost zero harm to the squadron. Rozhesvensky (during, I even remembered how the name was Yevonnaya) performed even worse, moreover, he left the squadron, switched to a destroyer and surrendered. But "towers" are required for Nebogatov. The fact that the command after Rozhdestvensky was to be taken by Filkenzarm, who died BEFORE the battle but whose death Nebogatov DIDN'T KNOW, is somehow overlooked. And all the dogs are hanged on Nebogatov.
          I tell the people that the tower should have been given to those who started this war, having neither a modern fleet, nor well-trained personnel, nor skillful admirals (except Makarov), having huge social problems in society, and they are not satisfied with Nebogatov either. That the tower had to be given to those who plundered everything, especially in the navy, those who left Russia with practically no modern heavy industry, and that heavy industry, even rifles 10 years after the RYAV had to be purchased .. in Japan, even enough full-time mosques were corny ... Not to mention machine guns, airplanes (especially engines) and heavy artillery ... Unhappy. Well, yes One judge for them.
          But it would be interesting to look at them if they were in the same situation as Nebogatov. After the defeat of the main forces, with outdated or inadequate ships on which the crews are worthless. When the reality of a riot and being thrown overboard by your own sailors exceeds the chances of victory over the enemy.
          At home, at the keyboard, with a cup of tea in tenacious paws, each is a naval commander and a kamikaze hero in combination. The reality is not "World of Warships" at all.
  • Graz
    Graz 25 May 2021 07: 56
    +3
    Well, frankly, the campaign of Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov was doomed from the very beginning.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 May 2021 16: 55
      +1
      Quote: Graz
      Well, frankly, the campaign of Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov was doomed from the very beginning.

      Are you proposing to organize a volley of Aurora 13 years earlier? wink
    2. rytik32
      rytik32 25 May 2021 22: 49
      +3
      The hike made sense with live ITOE. Then we would have got an advantage at sea.
  • Aviatika
    Aviatika 25 May 2021 17: 18
    -4
    It is interesting that angry criticism of Nicholas II sounds confident and loud. And rightly so. But how it comes to criticism of Ussaty in WWII, there is a lot of amazing excuses for a friend of all athletes. Let's be consistent, gentlemen.
    Of course, no Second Squadron should have been sent to the Far East. Of course, military science had to be learned in a real way. Of course, the real battle admirals simply had nowhere to go. It's like that.
    But, in my opinion, Nebogatov, having given the order to surrender, accomplished a feat. He understood what awaited him for such an order. But he saved the lives of sailors in a situation where there was no chance of victory.
    And what would you do in the place of Nebogatov? Ruined your squad in a useless battle?
  • unknown
    unknown 25 May 2021 23: 15
    0
    What the fuck is an elderly man.
    Only 56 years old.
    Exactly, everything.
    In the West, having studied the experience of world wars and other numerous conflicts, they came to the following conclusions.
    The age of the "ideal soldier" begins, it BEGINS at the age of 35.
    Physics is still normal, and brains are just starting to work efficiently.
    ADMINISTRATION age starts from 42 years old.
    In addition to brains, experience is also needed.
    Calendar experience, and not "so little has been lived as much has been experienced."
    The peak age of management is 55 years.
    It is at this age that the most effective management decisions are made.
    Further, for health reasons.
    Retirement - 63 years.
    It is by this age that a person acquires chronic diseases that sharply reduce his labor efficiency.
    1. Navigator_50
      Navigator_50 26 May 2021 13: 09
      0
      In the 19th century, what was the life expectancy? In men?
  • Zakonnik
    Zakonnik 27 May 2021 18: 08
    +1
    Yes, we seem to have such people in every war ...
  • hjvtp1966
    hjvtp1966 1 June 2021 13: 00
    -1
    Quote: ANB
    ... But he could have stayed in Japan or escaped to Brazil or Argentina.

    Who needed him there?
    All of you correctly write about RI, but absolutely in vain are you trying to justify Nebogatov.
    He knew perfectly well what he was supposed to do according to the Charter, but he lowered the flag anyway. And even a whole squadron, albeit not full and shabby.

    I could have just shot myself. It does not hurt. And people would also have saved their reputation.