Military Review

The Conquest of Siberia: Questions for Official Historiography

29

The number of publications on the network is growing, which in one way or another dispute the official history countries. In the arsenal of individual disputants there are certain documents, the arsenal of others is most often their own guesses, conjectures and assumptions, which in the end are passed off as the ultimate truth. In any case, there are more and more works of various kinds that fit into the provision of "alternative history".


One of the favorite areas of activity of those people who do not trust generally accepted historical "dogmas" is the topic of criticism of Karamzin's "History of the Russian State". In the story on the SNT Chairman channel, which examines the history of the “conquest” of Siberia, Karamzin is presented mainly as a writer, and his work on Russian history as, first of all, a literary work.

The author points to Karamzin's rather free approach to the description of both the Cossack campaigns in Siberia and the personality of Ermak. In particular, Karamzin's use of data from different chronicles is given, as well as additions "from himself", which are more reminiscent of a kind of lyrical digressions that are not related to specific data of historiography. One such example is how Yermak "shed tears" when he received an offer to "serve the White Tsar" and "defend Great Perm as the eastern stronghold of Christianity."

An example is also given of the strange portrait of Ermak, which resembles in its attire the Spanish conquistador.
The author of the video is somewhat ironic about the official historiography:

Wasn't Yermak cold in such attire during the conquest of Siberia?

Another video on the above-mentioned channel, where the author, to put it mildly, does not agree with the generally accepted historiographic concept of Siberia's annexation to Russia and asks a lot of questions:

Photos used:
Stanislav Romanovich Rostvorovsky - http://www.emii.ru/kollekcii/russkoe-iskusstvo-xviii--nachala-xx-veka/posly-ermaka-u-krasnogo-krylca-pered-ivanom-groznym-exhibit-33.html , Public domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=19133524
29 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. ee2100
    ee2100 20 May 2021 11: 10
    0
    It is a pity that we will not wait for specific answers from historians to specific questions from the video.
    1. Anachoret
      Anachoret 20 May 2021 11: 16
      +3
      we will probably never wait for answers to many questions about history)
      and the free clerk Karamzin, rather otkatyvali Catherine in his writings and everything that came before her described as a dense and semi-wild reign of tyrants)
      Karamzin is the same historian as the papal legate Posevino))
      1. SERGE ANT
        SERGE ANT 20 May 2021 11: 51
        +16
        It's all lyrics. Fact - Siberia is ours.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 20 May 2021 12: 59
          +2
          If you watched the video, then you would have questions. And so yes. Siberia is ours.
    2. Finches
      Finches 20 May 2021 12: 26
      +8
      In the modern world, where his garbage dump - the Internet - reigns, homegrown historians, economists, politicians, experts of all stripes are like uncut dogs! I'll do my bit - Ermak was Ukrainian! laughing
      1. Vsevolod
        Vsevolod 20 May 2021 13: 56
        +7
        Yermak the yarmulke, so more true than Herman. So he is a Jew, apparently a cross.
  2. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 20 May 2021 11: 11
    +1
    Anecdote: "Karamzin is a historian". recourse Distorted and disfigured the history of the country to please the Vatican, the LC and the king. He pleased everyone and bent over, could not decide how to write about the Romanovs (see the speed of writing history by volume)
  3. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 20 May 2021 11: 48
    +6
    Another video on the said channel, where the author, to put it mildly, does not agree with the generally accepted historiographic concept of the annexation of Siberia to Russia and asks a lot of questions

    Since 1817, everyone recognized what was written by Nikolai Mikhailovich Karamzin, and suddenly some "author" was found who had many questions. "Who are you author ???"
    1. nonsense
      nonsense 21 May 2021 06: 58
      0
      laughing who are these "all"? - Court licking of the Romanovs? Even then it was clear to clever people that Karamzin's story was complete bullshit. You can the same Pushkin A.S. read! - "Belkin's Tales", History of the village of Goryukhin. - There, Pushkin made good fun of this "court" of the so-called Karamzin. "history" ...
  4. Maks1995
    Maks1995 20 May 2021 12: 11
    +3
    Oh, it's all bullshit.

    And historians refer to Karamzin, and others, not so hot. Perfectly aware of their shortcomings.
    It's just that there is not so much Material, and the horizons of stories are wider.
    But in school textbooks, for most, little will diminish.

    For historians, this is simply a stage in the struggle to conquer. And there were other detachments, and other Cossacks and the rich.
    The strength is there - go kill, rob, seize, pay tribute, get rich. The strong is always right.

    You never know who was conquered at that time ...
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 21 May 2021 10: 51
      +2
      Quote: Max1995
      And historians refer to Karamzin, and others, not so hot. Perfectly aware of their shortcomings.

      But even in the time of J.V. Stalin, all historians were silent.
      1. Maks1995
        Maks1995 21 May 2021 14: 50
        0
        Come on .... Tsarism, Karamzin, but you didn’t scold me?

        I did not follow, but many of the current historians on the description of the development of History, emphasize that they began to criticize Karamzin almost immediately.
        And even something like that was in the textbooks ...
  5. Undecim
    Undecim 20 May 2021 12: 30
    +7
    An example is also given of the strange portrait of Ermak, which resembles in its attire the Spanish conquistador.

    The authors are pulling an owl to the globe. It has long been known that Ermak's lifetime portraits do not exist due to the absence of portrait painting in Russia at that time, and all existing portraits are free fantasies with varying degrees of romanticism.
    1. Konstantin Shevchenko
      Konstantin Shevchenko 23 May 2021 08: 32
      -2
      Finally, honestly, the story with Ermak is a fantasy with varying degrees of romanticism. And you know how interesting it is to read disputes on the history of which it might not have been)). Why not take all the chronicles and make a comparative analysis and double-check the Chairman of the SNT in one? Or the chronicles and history of Karamzin, this too, fantasies with anarchism and romanticism?
      1. ALARI
        ALARI 24 May 2021 16: 06
        0
        This is impossible, we do not have authentic chronicles of those times, not only about Ermak, but all others. Oddly enough, they all burned down. There are so-called lists with chronicles, but it is not known whether the truth was written there, added or subtracted. It is better to look at the maps of those times, there are many interesting things to be found, they were not so much combed as the chronicles and there are more discrepancies with the official history.
        1. Konstantin Shevchenko
          Konstantin Shevchenko 24 May 2021 17: 48
          0
          There is no portrait, no chronicle. So where did Soviet historians get about the conquest of Siberia by Yermak? Could it be OBS? I have no particular complaints about Karamzin, he was a courtier and wrote that he had conquered the city of Siberia. And Undecim has nothing to say, but it knows everything. Even about a portrait in a museum on Red Square. And the Chairman did not invent anything, he presented what is in the archives and read it out. It turns out that in the history textbook, the official imagination (and (or) conjectures (as you like) of Soviet historians. And whoever looked at it, it's a pretty sensible conclusion, the Stroganovs conquered Siberia for the gold in the mounds. Perhaps not so, because everything burned down according to you , maybe there was no such story.
          1. ALARI
            ALARI 25 May 2021 08: 11
            +1
            I watch the Chair all the time, I like his presentation of information. He does not distort, and if he says something, he gives information in defense. the story was not the same as the officials write.
            I would be careful not to trust what is in the archives, history in our country has been rewritten too often. We do not know for certain, but the history of the Chairman is closer to me.
  6. nikvic46
    nikvic46 21 May 2021 06: 39
    +2
    I am not a historian, but in the author's reasoning there is also a desire to draw everything to his opinion. It is no secret that industrialists did not hesitate to hire dashing people. "How is it that the Livonian War was going on, and a XNUMX-strong army was walking in the Urals?" At that time, the registration of people was weak. And there were no military registration and enlistment offices. And even when they were, dashing people gathered in gangs. The name itself does not give the author rest. Or maybe he changed the name Armyak for euphony? And the people are still singing a song about the glorious chieftain. And he will sing, in spite of other "songs".
    1. your1970
      your1970 24 May 2021 11: 10
      0
      Quote: nikvic46
      At that time, the registration of people was weak, and there were no military registration and enlistment offices.

      You will not believe it, and now, taking into account it is weak ... I have been looking for a person for six months, whether he is alive or dead, everyone does not care ...
  7. nonsense
    nonsense 21 May 2021 07: 35
    0
    The Stroganovs are Germans, half of Ermak's detachment were German mercenaries. It is reasonable to assume that the leader himself (chieftain = hauptman!) Of this detachment was a German! Hermann. And the very "Russian" nickname "Ermak" strongly gives it to the German language ...
    PS: If you look at the history of the further development of Siberia, then the Germans (as well as the British, Scots, ...) are represented there quite densely ... In the 16-18 century, people were "evacuated" from Europe not only to America, but also to Russia / Russia. In Siberia, including ...
    1. TANKISTONE
      TANKISTONE 21 May 2021 17: 07
      +1
      Strohanoff, Romanoff, Smirnoff, Putinoff are all Germans. The latter even lived in Germany ... laughing
      1. ALARI
        ALARI 24 May 2021 16: 11
        0
        Nikolaus von Below Hitler's adjutant is a typical German surname and first name. Aryan, probably as they were accepted in the seventh generation. laughing
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 22 May 2021 11: 35
      +4
      Description of Ermak:
      "Velmi is courageous and reasonable, and human, and transparent, and is content with all wisdom, flat-faced, black with brad and curly hair, average age [height], and flat, and broad-shouldered"
      ---
      Not very much like a German. Ermak participated in the Livonian War, proved to be good
      commander.
      For this reason, his entire squad was invited by the Stroganovs to protect against raids.
      Khan Kuchum.
      It is quite possible that the Germans also joined his detachment there.
      1. nonsense
        nonsense 22 May 2021 20: 00
        +1
        laughing and this "description" is not from the newspaper ... His, like all the other "chronicles" came up with much later than the events described ...
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 22 May 2021 20: 11
          +2
          This is a description of the archer who saw Yermak in person. Literacy at the time
          was.
          1. nonsense
            nonsense 22 May 2021 22: 03
            -1
            laughing literacy was ... No archer would dream of describing something! And on paper too!
            PS: where are the archers and where is Ermak? - the mismatch in the territory is complete ...
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 22 May 2021 22: 27
              +3
              Description of the times of the Livonian War. To Siberia.
              1. nonsense
                nonsense 23 May 2021 08: 24
                -1
                and it doesn't change much ...
    3. Sunstorm
      Sunstorm 22 May 2021 16: 30
      0
      Quote: nespich
      And the very "Russian" nickname "Ermak" strongly gives it to the German language ...

      The word "Yarmo" is apparently also originally German ... And what about Erivan and Erivan? By the way, in Mongolian "Er" is a man ..