Military Review

Rapiers and armor of the Tudor era

433

Tybalt fights Mercutio. Romeo and Juliet (1968). Both carry a Tudor rapier


“Capulet. What is the noise here? Give me my long sword!
Signora Capulet. Crutch, crutch! Why do you need your sword?
Capulet. A sword, they say! Look, old man Montague
As if in spite of me, he was waving a sword like that. "
(William Shakespeare "Romeo and Juliet")

Museum collections of knightly armor and weapons. Today we continue the story about the weapons and armor of the Tudors. But armor today we will consider not English, but for comparison with them ... German. Belonging to Emperor Ferdinand I (1503-1564), which were made for him in 1549 by the famous gunsmith from Nuremberg Kunz Lochner. And we will continue the story about the edged weapons of this time ...


Rapier, approx. 1610-1620 Solingen. The rapier was the main civilian weapon throughout the 120,2th and 104,1th centuries. Designed for fencing with thrusting strokes in progressively complex techniques, the rapier featured a double-edged blade with a sharp end and a complex system of protective arches for the hand. They were decorated with engraving, notching, gilding, inlaid with gold and silver in accordance with the fashion. Materials: steel, silver, copper. Dimensions: length 22,1 cm; blade length 1275,7 cm; crosshair width XNUMX cm; weight XNUMX g. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

And it so happened that by the end of the 1530th century, the sword, which until then was worn mainly with armor, now more and more often began to be combined with a civilian suit, so that it was even called a "costume sword", and after about XNUMX, carrying weapons for nobles in everyday life has already become a must. The reason was that duels began to gain more and more popularity, and the sword had to be constantly carried with you. He had previously been a tool for resolving any disputes, but nobles and people with a position for this put on armor and certainly went out to fight on the lists.


Rapier with blade signed by Juan Martinez (Toledo), c. 1580. Materials: steel, leather, gold, copper wire, wood, velvet. Dimensions: length 123,8 cm; crosshair width 21,6 cm; weight 1507, Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

But now everything is different. Fights between gentlemen in ordinary civilian clothes became fashionable. And it turned out that this way of settling differences that have arisen without expensive equipment and unnecessary ceremonies is much more convenient. The sword for such a duel might not be as strong as the "weapon for the field", because it was now used against the enemy devoid of metal armor. And if so, now his blade has become much lighter, but additional guards on the hilt were required to protect the hand.


Rapier with a blade by Johann Bongen (Solingen), approx. 1650-1675 Ephesus Italian, most likely from Naples, a blade from Solingen. Materials: steel, iron, wood. Dimensions: length 120,7 cm; blade length 101,9 cm; crosshair width 29,9 cm; weight 935,5 g. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

This is how the rapier appeared. At an early stage of its development, it represented a long "civilian" sword, in which the sharpened blade was, however, wider than the blade of the "estok". And already in the middle of the XNUMXth century, the word "rapier" began to be understood as a sword intended exclusively for thrusting blows. Instead of chopping down, a popular way to incapacitate the enemy was a lunge. It was this technique that was used by Italian fencing masters, and it was from Italy that the fashion for dueling came to the countries of northern Europe. Well, those who wanted to learn the skill of using a new weapon turned to reading the instructions that came out from under the lively feathers of the Italian fencing masters, who were immediately followed on the heels of their colleagues from Spain.


Parrying dagger with a "flaming blade", 1580–1620. Italy. In the lobe of the blade there is a pattern of holes! Dimensions: length 405 mm; blade length 268 mm; weight 420 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

In contrast to the military sword, the "civilian" weapon received a complex hilt, borrowed in England from the continent. Ephesus was made of simple "white" steel, but there were samples with both blackening and gilding. Engraved silver plates were used to decorate the crosshairs. Steel could also be decorated with a chased pattern. In the first half of the 1600th century, twisted decorative elements of protection, as well as metal carving, became popular. The technique of incrustation, including precious stones, first appeared on chased hilts in the middle of the century, and by XNUMX it had become the most widespread method of decoration. Enamel was used periodically.


English parrying dagger. OK. 1600-1620 Made in Germany. Dimensions: length 440 mm; blade length 306 mm; weight 540 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Along with new types of weapons, its masters appeared, and, accordingly, schools. The first such school of fencing was the Italian one. And, for example, a certain Londoner George Silver became a famous fencing master in England in the 1599th century, in XNUMX he published the treatise "Paradoxes of Defense" (Paradoxes of Defense). In it, he wrote that among the Italian fencers there is an opinion that the British do not put their index finger across the cross of the guard and the thumb on the blade, but their hand on the head of the hilt, since the English hilts do not have protective thimbles, and if so, then they (the British ) cannot make a direct attack. And, probably, they can really only bend the index finger on the crosshair when they use a weapon with an Italian hilt. That is, the battle within the framework of the Italian school took place like this: the fencers stood up against each other and with their right hand struck with a rapier, and with their left they took a blow either on the forearm wrapped in a cloak, or parried it with a special dagger.


View of the hilt and guard of the parrying dagger from the inside. Spain, 1640 Dimensions: length 580 mm; blade length 472 mm; weight 510 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

During the reign of Henry VIII, daggers in the Swiss style of Hans Holbein the Younger (1497-1543), who was his court painter and lived in London, became especially popular. Ephesus had the shape of the letter "H" made of cast metal and an intricate interlacing pattern on the scabbard. This was the era of the Renaissance, in this case the Northern Renaissance. Therefore, antique figures and ornaments were in fashion. The scabbards of Holbein's daggers were very richly decorated with embossed and carved images. Although, technically, it was still the same medieval evolved baselard. And at that time no one called such daggers by the name of the artist. This fame came to him already in the XNUMXth century.

Rapiers and armor of the Tudor era
Ambassadors (French Ambassador to London Jean de Denteville and French Ambassador to Venice, Bishop Georges de Selves). Hans Holbein Jr. 1533 London National Gallery


The hand of one of the ambassadors, gripping the "Holbein's dagger". Close-up


Holbein's dagger sheath. Vorbilder für Fabrikanten und Handwerker, 1836, Vol. 2, Abtheilung II, Bl. 23. Well, Holbein loved "death scenes", which is really there. Although the time was like that. Every second woman died during the first childbirth, and images of corpses devoured by worms were very popular among artists and sculptors, as were skulls and skeletons!

Then, around 1550, Scottish daggers became widespread. It has become fashionable again to order headsets: a sword and a dagger in the same style. Moreover, the dagger could have a very simple guard with a crosshair and a ring, or, already in the second half of the 1560th century, a guard with a shield on the outside. The daggers were worn in a scabbard on the side on the right, attaching the scabbard to a waist belt with two staples on their metal mouth. After about XNUMX, the dagger was worn closer to the back. It was fashionable at the mouth of the scabbard on each side to have a ring through which a cord with tassels was passed - “Venetian silk tassel”. The cords were both silver and gold, black and gold, and crimson silk with tassels of the appropriate colors. They were decorated with chains, ribbons and even large bows. Also, some scabbards had containers for a knife and an awl.


Armor of the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I (1503-1564). Height 170,2 cm; weight 24 kg. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Today we will get acquainted with the armor of the Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand I (1503-1564). Dated to 1549. Master Kunz Lochner from Nuremberg. Ferdinand I's ownership of this armor is indicated by heraldic emblems on the socks of the Sabatons: an imperial double-headed eagle crowned with a crown, emphasizing Ferdinand's status. The image of the Virgin with the baby on the breastplate was also used on his armor by his older brother, Emperor Charles V. In addition, the insignia of the Order of the Golden Fleece, an elite knightly society of which Ferdinand was a member, can be seen on the armor. It is also on display at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, it was made at about the same time as the armor of Henry XIII, so this is a very good object for comparing the two schools - German and Greenwich.


Rear view


The cuirass is decorated in front with a beautiful engraved image of the Madonna and Child


The back of the cuirass with the image of two apostles - Paul with a sword and Peter with a key, crossed "wild staves" and tongues of flame is no less interesting.


The lance hook is more complex in design than on the armor of Henry VIII of the Greenwich Workshop. By the way, the master Kunz Lochner, who made this armor, was the most famous gunsmith of Nuremberg at that time. He also made several pieces of armor for both Ferdinand and his son, Archduke Maximilian (1527-1576), including two identical pieces of armor around 1546 that are very similar to the pattern shown here.

As always, the new weapon in England had supporters and opponents who stood up for the "good English sword". In 1591 Sir John Smythe wrote the Instructions. Observations and Orders Mylitarie, which went out of print four years later. And so he wrote that the rapier is too long for an infantryman in the cramped battle, that it is difficult to grab it in real conditions, and it is completely impossible for a horseman, because for this he will have to throw the reins! That is, it is not suitable for war. It will also break when hitting the armor. Although, on the other hand, he noted the successful use of "estoks", or "such", which had quadrangular blades, by horsemen. That is, with the desire and training, it was always possible to achieve the desired result. It's just that people are very traditional creatures and do not like to retrain.


The elbow pad is designed so that even a rapier does not hit the joint between the "pipes" of the forearm and shoulder in any way!


For some reason, almost the main motive of the decor was the image of a centaur! By the way, the engraving drawings are attributed to Hans Holbein the Younger, who lived in London at that time, but periodically traveled to the continent.

George Silver, by the way, also disliked rapiers and called them "bird skewers." In his opinion, they were only good for piercing the Corcelles (brinandina), for cutting off the strings and buckles of the helmet from the straps of the armor. For a chopping blow, in his opinion, they are too long and have the wrong hilt. However, despite all these scriptures, the rapier became an increasingly fashionable weapon, and with civilian clothing it was worn more and more often. And if so, teachers were needed to train foil fencers. So fencing schools appeared in England, which were opened first by Italians, and then by the most talented and successful of their own students.


The sock of the Sabatons. A kind of "passport" of the owner of the armor!

The "sword and a half hands" or "sword-bastard" in England was still in use, but the rapier supplanted it in the most active way. The intimidating two-handed swords of the infantry, with which it could hack through the ranks of pikemen, were also used, but increasingly for ceremonial purposes. In the continental armies, they were much more in demand than in the British.


Embossed shoulder pads ...


And this is besagyu - plates that should cover the armpits when a warrior in such armor raised his hand up


Plate gloves are exceptionally perfect. They can hold not only a sword, but also a wheeled pistol!


Such "adaptations" for the genitals were characteristic just for the armor of this time

The rider's war hammer or "raven beak" was now supplied with a metal shaft so that it could not be chopped off, and the butt of the hammer received another diamond-shaped cut. Six-pins were used, but rarely. There are rich designs adorned with silver or gold notching on blued or reddish-brown colored metal surfaces. But they were not the mass weapons of the Tudor-era English cavalry.


Horseman's Warhammer, c. 1450 France. Dimensions: length 65,5 cm; weight 1474,2 g. Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

Warriors of two detachments of the royal guard: "Gentlemen at Arms" and the Yeomen Guard stood on guard during state celebrations, armed with berdysh and protazans. But we will tell you about this weapon separately ...

To be continued ...
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 23 May 2021 05: 44
    +8
    What the people did not come up with for shredding the enemy, I liked the parrying daggers.
    A useful thing ... even in our time ... I am waiting for the continuation dear Vyacheslav. hi
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2021 06: 02
      +13
      Hello to an honest company! Respect and respect to Vyacheslav Olegovich. The weekend under the sign of iron from the Tudor era was definitely a success !!! I hope for the continuation of the story of beautiful steel and always with pictures!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 23 May 2021 06: 28
        +8
        Thanks, Kote,
        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich.
        To be honest, I read about parrying daggers for the first time!
        Well, the illustrations, as always, are at their best!
        1. depressant
          depressant 23 May 2021 08: 00
          +7
          Good morning dear friends! )))
          Many thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich for the opportunity to admire the incomparable beauty of armor, daggers and rapiers from the times of Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet.
          "There is no story sadder in the world than the story of Romeo and Juliet" (c)
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 23 May 2021 09: 59
          +6
          To be honest, I read about parrying daggers for the first time!
          Come on! I do not believe!!!
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 23 May 2021 13: 17
            +6
            Well, I was not fond of fencing! laughing And on TV I watched "The Three Musketeers" in different interpretations. And there, according to the article, parrying daggers were not held in high esteem.
            I have always considered the dagger / stiletto a secret, insidious ... espionage or something ...
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 May 2021 13: 27
              +5
              Damn, Igor! This is not modern fencing or even an historical fencing. There people tried to kill, while remaining alive. Clean logistics!
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 24 May 2021 09: 56
                +4
                This is not modern fencing or even an historical fencing. There people tried to kill, while remaining alive. Clean logistics!

                Hmm .. Sometimes the lack of a dagger could lead to death!
                From the "wiki", about the famous "duel of minions", 1578:
                Kelyus forgot the dagger at home. Many then considered such absent-mindedness intentional - fencing with one epee was becoming fashionable throughout Europe. Perhaps, Kelyus was counting on an advantage in this kind of battle, but for this d'Antragues, he had to nobly throw back his dagger. He did not do this, suggesting that the count himself get out of this situation. The result was disastrous for Kelyus - he received a total of 19 hits. D'Antrague escaped with a scratch on his hand, but did not finish off the minion.
                To summarize: D'Antrague was tedious to take a large fork instead of a sword - he could even turn Kelyus into a stale voodoo doll. laughing fellow
            2. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 23 May 2021 20: 14
              +4
              Leader, how m you know that era from the novels and the film, but there really: the dagger is associated with something insidious
        3. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 23 May 2021 18: 07
          +3
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          To be honest, I read about parrying daggers for the first time!

          Likewise. It was always called daga. Something the author with the translation was probably wise.
  2. Korsar4
    Korsar4 23 May 2021 06: 36
    +9
    I wonder how versatile Holbein was.

    In the famous duel of minions and Angevins, Count Kelyus was without a dagger. Nothing good ended for him.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2021 07: 29
      +9
      Quote: Korsar4
      I wonder how versatile Holbein was.

      In the famous duel of minions and Angevins, Count Kelyus was without a dagger. Nothing good ended for him.

      The history of the development of the fencing school is interesting here. I read that Holbein practiced the newest (at that time) right-sided stance, in which the presence of a dagger is not necessary. Opponents preferred the traditional left-handed one with the obligatory dagger, shield or cloak. How it was and why I don’t know. I read about this for a long time, perhaps a banal attraction "by the ears" of well-known events to their conjectures. Our authors of the 90s suffered from this.
      But the point is different at the time of d'Artagnan, already everywhere fencing in a right-sided stand without daggers and daggers. However, today this stance remains the only one in sports fencing.
      I have a different question, what can be opposed against a war hammer or a six-apex. The main thing is to hook, and then God will not give out - the devil will not eat! Although the blaster is better !!!
      I will smile!
      Yesterday I talked with friends, acquaintances from the teaching environment. The ladies shared some jokes! At the history lesson in the 5th grade, there was a dispute about weapons. In principle, what a lady with a pedagogical education and children 11-12 years old can know! They quarreled about what a gladius is! Then, by unknown means, we reached the truth that there is no better machine gun! But one shooter with adolescent maximalism denied this truth - "a blaster is better than a machine gun!" Far from "weapons" and "science fiction", the classy lady tried to doubt this statement. However, the "fan of Star Wars" killed everyone with the irrefutable truth "on the Internet is for sale, for sale is for sale"! The class "googled" was convinced calmed down!
      So a self-confident aunt saw a pneumatic shooting range in my garage. Trite psychologically traumatized five men at once (including her husband) flashing "knowledge" about beam weapons. love
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 23 May 2021 07: 35
        +11
        Yes. All the same, what would we do in childhood without Dumas. In the "Countess de Monsoreau" - swords and daggers. And in the "Musketeers" there are already only swords.

        When we were in the elementary grades, we were fighting "weapons in fantasies" we got to neutron bombs. They didn't waste time on trifles.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2021 07: 51
          +8
          Quote: Korsar4
          When we were in the elementary grades, we were fighting "weapons in fantasies" we got to neutron bombs. They didn't waste time on trifles.

          As a child, I found this game. On any flat surface of the reverse side there were labels from gas-water (duchess, Baikal, Buratino). Opponents clapped their hands on them to turn them over to the front side. The one who turned over won. This later moved on to chewing gum inserts. So, due to the transference and lack of benefits of civilization in the form of "bagel-gum" instead of "raids" on the local factory of minimal water behind the labels, the tradition of drawing inserts has come into fashion. They drew from the heart, robots, tanks, weapons. They played with them.
          1. Van 16
            Van 16 23 May 2021 08: 24
            +5
            "As a child, I found this game"

            It was! Thank you for reminding hi
            But we played with matchbox labels. Special extremes for stamps, But it is very, very rare, stamps were - value.
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 May 2021 09: 50
            +5
            And quite in childhood it was possible to draw some kind of weapon on the asphalt, and then open it.

            But the "knives" were more interesting.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 May 2021 10: 06
              +5
              But the "knives" were more interesting.
              In the yard - of course, we played "lands" and "ships". But within the school walls - mostly in "candy wrappers".
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 23 May 2021 11: 22
                +4
                Primary school - "candy wrappers".
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 23 May 2021 12: 22
                  +5
                  Well, yes, in the middle game they got tougher.
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 23 May 2021 16: 10
          +5
          At the beginning we were popular: "swords" from sticks. I had a "trump card", somewhere I found an old cue, and a guard from a lid for canning. And my friend's "rival" was made of a narrow picket, and the guard was made of an alarm clock spring
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 16: 31
            +5
            The steep swords were from window glazing beads, which we brazenly stole at the construction site. The guard in the form of a crosshair with a bow from the cross to the pommel was made of wire. smile
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 May 2021 16: 36
              +2
              Ours were the coolest of the fittings, "hoisted" at the nearest construction site.
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 23 May 2021 18: 32
                +4
                There were no fittings in the village, but a cousin, he lived in the city, and said that the boys made "raids" on the construction site and there "pioneered" everything they needed
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 23 May 2021 18: 51
                  +2
                  So it happened in our childhood, who were lucky, who were not ... Having matured, we continued the tradition. Someone is worse, someone is better ... It is not for us to judge contemporaries ...
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 May 2021 11: 00
            +2
            Likewise. Cutting a branch was not difficult.

            Another period is shields from the seats of old chairs.
            And decorating the outside with pieces of iron is a nice thing. And the sword was carved.


            Now a samurai comes to mind with a planed oar.
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 24 May 2021 12: 01
              +3
              We didn't have samurai. "Musketeers" Indians it was
      2. depressant
        depressant 23 May 2021 08: 45
        +7
        Vladislav ...
        Question:
        "I have a different question, what can be opposed against a war hammer or a six-apex."
        Answer:
        Sprint qualities.
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 May 2021 09: 35
        +6
        "A bullet is a fool, a ray is a fine fellow!"
        (Princess Leia "My Meetings with Darth Vader")
        1. depressant
          depressant 23 May 2021 10: 22
          +5
          Leia's memoir or virtual script?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 11: 06
            +6
            I myself wrote down from her words.
            1. vladcub
              vladcub 24 May 2021 08: 59
              +3
              And who will confirm the authenticity, Darth Vader or the cat mafia?
      4. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 May 2021 09: 50
        +5
        what can be opposed against a war hammer or a six-apex. The main thing is to hook
        Yes, a lot of things, in fact.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2021 10: 41
          +8
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          what can be opposed against a war hammer or a six-apex. The main thing is to hook
          Yes, a lot of things, in fact.

          “Yoyoyomayo, don't stand under the arrow,” said the crane operator Uncle Vasya, who dropped the foundation block onto a minibus with reenactors from the late Middle Ages !!! lol
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 10: 49
            +6
            It is not worth opposing siege weapons to personal ones. All the more so, in the presence of the extremely drunken servants of the first. laughing
            1. depressant
              depressant 23 May 2021 11: 20
              +7
              And I still could not understand why some had rapiers, while others still had swords, pikes, and armor. As it turned out, lightweight in comparison with all this good rapiers quickly gained popularity as an individual means of protecting a city dweller! They have become massive civilian weapons. It is difficult to imagine a banker, shopkeeper or workshop owner for the production of something in heavy armor and sword in hand. The time has come for the bourgeois degeneration of society.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 12: 57
                +9
                A sword for a duel, a sword for a battle
                Everyone chooses by themselves

                Duel and war have little in common; they require different qualities from the participants and different equipment.
                Quote: depressant
                It is difficult to imagine a banker, shopkeeper or workshop owner for the production of something in heavy armor and sword in hand.

                In peaceful life, only noblemen or mercenaries in the service could carry weapons. In wartime or during civil strife - why not? Merchants, artisans, shopkeepers were armed and equipped with whatever they could. Rapiers were, of course, useless for them, but, for example, some kind of falchion or katsbalger.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 23 May 2021 16: 54
                  +6
                  I think it was like this:
                  "Going into the guardhouse," imirek "said to the servant, unhooking the rapier with the scabbard:
                  -Ufff, this reception is finally over !!! Pierre, give me my sword. We still have half an hour to get home. It is getting dark, they have already called back to the supper, however ... "
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 16: 56
                    +5
                    Something like that. And do not forget to wear chain mail if the road is late.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 17: 05
                      +4
                      Chain mail from a crossbow bolt will not save, especially in the conditions of medieval urban development.
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 17: 23
                        +3
                        God saves man, who save himself. I'd put it on. laughing
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 23 May 2021 17: 36
                        +4
                        I would also. But it is better to have a faithful person watching the back hemisphere. And, by the way, with the same crossbow in hand.
                    2. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 23 May 2021 18: 38
                      +3
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      Chain mail from a crossbow bolt will not save, especially in the conditions of medieval urban development.

                      Greetings! hi
                      The gopniks did not have the dough for this, an expensive thing was a crossbow. ))
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 23 May 2021 18: 41
                  +4
                  Anton, this is just a plot for some historical adventure novel in the style of Dumas
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 11: 40
      +10
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      I have a different question, what can be opposed against a war hammer or a six-apex.

      Imagined a duel on the indicated weapon in civilian suits. laughing
      In his youth, he witnessed a fight between two drunken idiots with fence stakes in their hands. The battle that promised to be epic almost immediately turned into a fuss and was stopped by the people around - the "knights of the fence" managed to deliver only one full blow for two, after which they immediately became so close that they threw the stakes and began to sort things out in a more familiar format. laughing
      It seems that in the conditions of a noble duel, a fighter with a heavy hammer or a six-fighter against a fighter with a rapier and daga had no chances, even theoretical ones. He will spend much more time preparing for a hammer strike, while he will be forced to open up, the direction of the strike for his opponent will be completely obvious, so it will not be difficult to dodge. To strike with a six-fighter, you will have to try to get closer to the enemy. Reflecting the attacks of such a fast and deadly weapon as a rapier with a heavy war hammer or a short sixopier ... I can't imagine how this is possible. It seems to me that such a fight will last a maximum of several seconds.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 May 2021 12: 28
        +7
        Bravo! Exactly! I agree 100%!
        And on those who were especially persistent in their mastery of percussion-crushing weapons, there were halberds.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 23 May 2021 13: 18
          +6
          If Ilya Muromets with a club is not remembered.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 13: 33
            +6
            And then, from around the corner, Wilhelm Tell comes out ...
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 23 May 2021 14: 57
              +4
              It's good if the Serpent Gorynych does not fly out.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 23 May 2021 15: 20
                +4
                "Pendalf killed the last dragon in the zoo long ago." (FROM)
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 23 May 2021 16: 34
              +4
              Well Wilhelm Tel used a bow. As I remember, he knocked down an apple with an arrow
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 23 May 2021 16: 58
                +4
                Wilhelm Tel is a Swiss national hero. Crossbowman, from the word "absolutely"
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 16: 45
            +6
            Quote: Korsar4
            If Ilya Muromets with a club is not remembered.

            Anachronism. smile
            As, however, and Wilhelm Tel.
            Here you need to remember Prince Serebryany, Ivan Peresvetov ...
            The culture of handling the rapier and daga developed in Western Europe, while in Eastern Europe they fenced with sabers. It is also an interesting type of combat, not as popular as the sword and foil, but very effective and effective. The Polish school of saber fencing had great authority and, to be honest, I did not know who I would bet money on if de Bussy and Pan Volodyevsky had met at the barrier. smile
            At one time, the French prince Henry of Anjou, the future Henry III, was the Polish king for some time. Naturally, he went to Poland with his court. Interestingly, the arrogant Poles hurt the showy French? Were there duels between them? What weapon? With what results?
            Colleagues, anyone in the know?
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 May 2021 17: 01
              +6
              Anachronism
              Michael, my respect! hi
              Sergei and I are joking a little, isn't it noticeable?
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 17: 22
                +6
                Mutually, Anton. hi
                Of course it is noticeable. But today I decided to take on the role of such a bore. smile The mood is appropriate. smile
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 23 May 2021 17: 31
                  +5
                  Oh wei! Maybe then we will consider dragon-fighting equipment? Well, for a variety of storylines of the forum, so that chronolozhtsy, fat does not seem like meat?
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 18: 42
                    +4
                    First you need to determine what the dragon was, its performance characteristics. And then on this issue so many fairy tales have been invented - you will not find the truth.
                    Here's what I recommend for a start:

                    Here it is at least intelligibly explained why dragons could not let fire out of their mouths and from where they could still fire it. smile
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 23 May 2021 19: 19
                    +4
                    "Dragon named Nightmare" (c).

                    "June 31" - for viewing.
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 23 May 2021 19: 18
              +4
              There may be an anachronism in the anecdote. If you believe Senkevich of the model "With Fire and Sword" the French had no chance. However, what options did he have?
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 23 May 2021 20: 01
                +4
                I blurted out here, half asleep. "Crusaders" meant.
            3. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 24 May 2021 10: 13
              +3
              At one time, the French prince Henry of Anjou, the future Henry III, was the Polish king for some time.

              I remember that "the young woman was no longer young" ... I mean, the Polish "bride" of Heinrich.
              From the wiki: For the first time, both sides looked at each other so closely. Henry and his courtyard were unpleasantly struck by the propensity of ordinary people to drink, and the neglect of Polish villages, and the harsh climate. The gentry, with undisguised contempt, looked at the jeweled and perfumed French nobles (including the king himself), their exquisite clothes, secular manners. They considered all this "woman's". However, many nobles have adopted French fashion for their arsenal.
  3. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 May 2021 11: 56
    +7
    I wonder how versatile Holbein was.
    Artists, they are!
    Take Vereshchagin, for example.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 23 May 2021 14: 40
      +6
      Hello Anton! hi
      For example, it seemed to me that Holbein's dagger always looked like that.


      And with regard to "versatility" you are absolutely right. laughing

      This is also Holbein.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 May 2021 17: 25
        +5
        Hello uncle!
        You will laugh, but this term, "Holbein's dagger", I have read and heard today for the third time in my life. Bowie is closer to me.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 23 May 2021 17: 32
          +8
          Well I do not know. The Americans' firearms are also good in design. But Colonel Bowie's knife reminds me more of a butcher's knife for butchering buffalo.

          It is good that there were no bison in Europe and Holbein was born. laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 17: 50
            +5
            Great photo from a shitty angle! laughing
            Uncle Kostya, you know me. I rarely brag about the ability to wield this or that weapon, but here that "fell into the hand."
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 23 May 2021 17: 53
              +7
              "lay in the hand."


              And this is the most important thing! As one movie hero put it, the truth about the Colt revolver is: "For a real Texan, the Colt is an extension of his dick!" laughing
              In principle, in some ways he is right. drinks
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 23 May 2021 18: 02
                +7
                Well yes. For a long time I was looking for a pistol in my hand, but with a "bowie", somehow it worked out right away.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 May 2021 18: 27
                  +6
                  And how did you pick up something with the barrel?
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 23 May 2021 18: 43
                    +6
                    Yes of course. CZ-75.
                    Although, for the left hand, I would have purchased something faster. Well, to "hide behind fire"
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 23 May 2021 19: 36
                      +6
                      Chezet is a good car, I have not tried it, but judging by the reviews and because many people copy it, this is indeed the case.
                      What do you mean by "something more rapid-fire"?
                    2. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 20: 30
                      +6
                      Uncle Kostya, don't rub your soul.
                    3. Catfish
                      Catfish 23 May 2021 20: 56
                      +6
                      Eh, we ought to sit at the bottle! request drinks
                    4. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 21: 06
                      +5
                      I think it's better to shoot 20 pieces of samples, and then to the bottle.
                    5. Catfish
                      Catfish 23 May 2021 22: 05
                      +3
                      It is possible before and it is possible after, but it is better not to combine. smile
                    6. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 24 May 2021 13: 30
                      +5
                      It is possible before and it is possible after, but it is better not to combine.

                      The main thing is that both of you shouldn't get too carried away with the process ... what And it will turn out like this:
                    7. Catfish
                      Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 19
                      +2
                      Hmmm, this is a certain talent you need to have in order to shoot your own balls even when drunk. laughing
                    8. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 24 May 2021 17: 30
                      +4
                      Hmmm, this is a certain talent you need to have in order to shoot your own balls even when drunk.

                      God save us from such talents, Uncle Kostya! drinks
                    9. Catfish
                      Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 47
                      +2
                      "Trust in God, but do not make a mistake yourself" (c)
                    10. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 25 May 2021 09: 31
                      +2
                      "Trust in God, but do not make a mistake yourself" (c)

                      You don't have beavers around, do you? wink That is, the maximum that you and Anton can do drunk and naked is to run around the field in the moonlight with funny screams? laughing No dismantling of beaver dams and huts? drinks
                    11. Catfish
                      Catfish 25 May 2021 10: 38
                      +1
                      That is, the maximum that you and Anton can do drunk and naked is to run in circles in the moonlight

                      Easily, even with women! good Are you jealous? The Verigs are not allowed and Zarathustra is not allowing? laughing
                      And we have beavers on Pereplyuyka, only there are no fools even drunk to visit them. So you flew past, both women and beavers. request
                    12. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 25 May 2021 12: 04
                      +2
                      So you flew past, both women and beavers.

                      For such and such words, father, you can put your party card on the table ... wink
                      Easily, even with women!

                      Will Adam Kozlevich give you a lift to the nearest lunar field? laughing first will you have fun, then repent? drinks "Will you drink? Will you dance naked in the moonlight? E-ehhh, I'll pump it!" fellow
                    13. Catfish
                      Catfish 25 May 2021 12: 06
                      +1
                      ... then repent?


                      Ha ha ha ... I won't even answer, are you having nightmares? laughing
                    14. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 25 May 2021 12: 22
                      +2
                      I won't even answer, do you have nightmares?

                      No, I am asleep - I have nothing to repent for! laughing
                    15. Catfish
                      Catfish 25 May 2021 12: 34
                      +1
                      No, I am asleep - I have nothing to repent for!


                      And it's useless for me! laughing
  4. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 24 May 2021 22: 08
    +2
    Is it true that CZ, in turn, imitated Browning?
  5. Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 22: 17
    +1
    The same locking principle, and nothing more. On this principle from John Moses, half of the current pistols are designed, if not more.
  6. Undecim
    Undecim 23 May 2021 22: 10
    +5
    Although, for the left hand, I would have purchased something faster.

    If you like the CZ-75, why change it.

    CZ-75 Automatic.
  7. Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 16: 57
    +2
    I think so too.
    And for all tastes laughing

    and are produced not only by Czechs.

    In the 75s, I got my hands on a commercial weapons catalog, mainly hunting and equipment, but there were also pistols. And there the CZ-XNUMX was called "Brunner".

    Vic, do you know anything about "Brunner", where did that name come from?
  8. Undecim
    Undecim 24 May 2021 17: 32
    +3
    Good evening. It is an exporter of CZ pistols to Germany. This is why they are known in the German market as CZ BRÜNNER.
  9. Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 35
    +2
    Thank you, Victor! drinks Believe me, since the mid-seventies I've been wondering who this Brunner is.
  10. Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 24 May 2021 22: 05
    +1
    I recommend: "micro ultrasound", read about it, high rate of fire
  11. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 22: 13
    +1
    Thank you, of course, but somehow the Israeli weapons school does not inspire. She and the Jews, then, is not particularly inspiring.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 23 May 2021 21: 58
    +3
    But Colonel Bowie's knife reminds me more of a butcher's knife for butchering buffalo.

    And it was originally created as a hunting knife. And your photo is unsuccessful.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 23 May 2021 22: 06
      +5
      Vic, and this is not mine, laid out what fell out first. request
      1. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 14: 28
        +3
        Oh! ... Victor Nikolaevich in the photo laid out one of my kitchen knives. Only my handle will be simpler wassat )))
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 24 May 2021 09: 56
    +5
    In the famous duel of minions and Angevins, Count Kelyus was without a dagger. Nothing good ended for him.

    Sorry, Sergei, I saw your comment late - I wrote about the same. drinks
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 23 May 2021 06: 45
    +3
    back cuirass with the image of the two apostles - Paul with a sword and Peter with a key, crossed "wild staffs" and tongues of flame

    They say, the hand against the apostles "will not rise" yes
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2021 07: 02
      +7
      Quote: Olgovich
      back cuirass with the image of the two apostles - Paul with a sword and Peter with a key, crossed "wild staffs" and tongues of flame

      They say, the hand against the apostles "will not rise" yes

      Hello, Sergey!
      Interestingly, the Urkogans, judging by their tattoos with crosses, cathedrals and virgins, apparently similarly hoped for something like that !!!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 23 May 2021 07: 11
        +6
        Followers are unlikely. But you can't ask who was the pioneer in this subculture.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 23 May 2021 07: 42
          +5
          Quote: Korsar4
          Followers are unlikely. But you can't ask who was the pioneer in this subculture.

          More likely Vikings. pirates, corsairs and other rascals from the high road !!!
          The description of the Rus comes to mind from the pen of Ahmad Ibn-Fadlan in 922.
          their commercial affairs and landed on the Atil River (Volga). And I have not seen people with more perfect bodies than them. They are like palms, blush, red. They do not wear jackets or caftans, but any husband from among them wears a veil with which he covers one of his sides, with one of his hands coming out of him. Each of them has an ax, and a sword, and a knife, and he never part with what we have just mentioned.
          Their swords are flat, with grooves, Frankish. And from the fingertips of one of the Rus to his neck, there is a collection of trees and images, and the like (tattoos). And as for each woman from among them, a ring is attached to her chest, either of iron, or of silver, or of copper, or of gold, in accordance with the money of her husband. And each ring has a box with a knife also attached to the chest. On the necks of the women there are several rows of monistas made of gold and silver. "
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 May 2021 07: 46
            +4
            When cousin Benedict got to the natives, he was painted. So, with a high probability, in Southeast Asia and Oceania, the original source can be searched.

            However, how synchronously the tribes developed in different parts of the world when he was young is a big question.
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 24 May 2021 22: 12
              +1
              Quote: Korsar4
              When cousin Benedict got to the natives, he was painted. So, with a high probability, in Southeast Asia and Oceania, the original source can be searched.

              However, how synchronously the tribes developed in different parts of the world when he was young is a big question.

              Jules Verne: "Captain Grant's Children"
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 24 May 2021 22: 43
                0
                Paganel was in Captain Grant's Children. And in "Fifteen Years Captain" - Cousin Benedict. But both are naturalists.
                1. Astra wild2
                  Astra wild2 25 May 2021 05: 57
                  +1
                  I remember that the naturalist was captured by the natives and was decorated with tattoos.
                  I read "Captain Grant's Children", watched films, but "15 Years Old Captain" vaguely remember the contents of the book, but in the film it is not.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 12: 11
            +3
            Tattooing is inherent in any culture of the time of the late tribal society. The criminal subculture is no exception.
        2. depressant
          depressant 23 May 2021 08: 22
          +5
          The image of the saints on the cuirass has nothing to do with the traditions of the criminal world.

          Wearable designs using dyes injected under the skin appeared in Europe at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. They were used by booth artists, demonstrating a painted body in front of the public. Then tattoos migrated to circus art for the same purpose. Unusual art was so successful that after a few decades it was perceived as normal. Enterprising Parisians were the first to open tattoo workshops. The craftsmen themselves made the dye, which was injected under the client's skin for a reasonable fee.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 09: 15
            +5
            That's how it is, the "gloomy" Middle Ages! laughing
            My respect, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
            Curious about the source of the quote?
            1. depressant
              depressant 23 May 2021 10: 12
              +4
              Good morning Anton!
              The source is this:
              yandex.ru/turbo/on-tattoo.ru
              There are many interesting things about the history of criminal tattoos. But the fact that "tattoos" on armor are an established method of either heavenly protection or a designation of belonging to a knightly clan, I have no doubts. Crime has nothing to do with this.
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 May 2021 09: 52
            +4
            Nevertheless, certain analogies can be drawn.

            And who has more sins?
            Not every Nicolas Rolene will remain in history.
          3. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 16: 47
            +4
            Quote: depressant
            The image of the saints on the cuirass has nothing to do with the traditions of the criminal world

            I think so, although the origins of both lie on the same plane - the desire to create a talisman, attract good luck, and gain the patronage of higher powers.
      2. Mike_E
        Mike_E 23 May 2021 10: 52
        +3
        A very interesting observation, by the way! Did other royalty have similar engravings on their backs? If so, then the topic of the candidate is pecked))
  • depressant
    depressant 23 May 2021 08: 35
    +4
    Quite a lot of effort was spent by me to find the names of the masters-manufacturers of effigies and breaststrokes --- in vain! It seems that history has not preserved them, considering such products to be just a craft.
    The situation with armor and weapons is different - here there is death, here you have to defend yourself, and even kill someone on occasion. In other words, here life and death go, oddly enough, hand in hand, they are face to face, weapons and armor are a duel of life and death. And effigies and breaststrokes are only death, and, moreover, already taken place, dead in the ground, living at the table.
    Therefore, armor is much more respectful, the master-maker is the protector. And here is the armor in the photo
    belonging to Emperor Ferdinand I (1503-1564), which were made for him in 1549 by the famous gunsmith from Nuremberg Kunz Lochner.

    That's it - Kunz Lochner from Nuremberg!
    1. Richard
      Richard 23 May 2021 20: 49
      +5
      Kunz Lochner from Nuremberg

      It would be more correct to write all the same - the armor of the work of Kunz Lochner Jr.
      There were two outstanding Nuremberg plate makers, gunsmiths, blacksmiths and jewelers from Nuremberg - a father and a son. The works of his brothers Heinrich and Hans, who were also skilled armourers and blacksmiths, were also appreciated at that time. It was a whole family of famous gunsmiths and blacksmiths.
      1. Richard
        Richard 23 May 2021 20: 54
        +4
        Known surviving armor by Kunz Lochner Jr.
        Armor of King Sigismund II Augustus of Poland, kept at the Swedish Royal Armory in Stockholm


        Armor of Gustav I of Sweden, dating from 1540, kept at the Royal Armory of Sweden, Stockholm


        The armor of Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor, created for the then Archduke Ferdinand in 1549, is kept at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York
        1. Richard
          Richard 23 May 2021 21: 11
          +3
          Most of the armor and weapons of that time have 2 hallmarks - cities and craftsmen.
          a photo. Above: stamp of the master Kunz (Conrad) Lochner (him. Kunz (Konrad) Lochner, 1510-1567) in the form of a figure of a lion standing on its hind legs. Below: Mark of the Master Lochner (left) and Mark of Nuremberg
          1. Richard
            Richard 23 May 2021 21: 19
            +5
            In October 2015, there was a gorgeous article on VO gothartusа "Armourers of Western Europe of the XNUMXth century" Today, unfortunately, works of this level are practically not found here
            link: https://topwar.ru/84019-mastera-oruzheyniki-zapadnoy-evropy-xvi-veka.html
        2. depressant
          depressant 23 May 2021 21: 19
          +4
          Someone did not like you, Dmitry)))
          And I am grateful to you for the clarification and photographs of the master's works. Many thanks!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 23 May 2021 08: 42
    +4
    Every second woman died at the first birth,
    It became interesting, where does such categorical information from?
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. depressant
      depressant 23 May 2021 10: 15
      +3
      So the churchmen kept records of births and deaths.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 May 2021 10: 24
        +3
        Uh-huh. Stored. Before the Reformation.
        1. depressant
          depressant 23 May 2021 10: 28
          +3
          What do you mean by that, Anton? Are the records of births and deaths, besides the dispassionate fixation of dates and names, religious in color?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 10: 39
            +3
            Only that in the process of the struggle for the faith (no, not like that, the "Struggle for the Faith"!), The churches are burned along with the priests and archives.
            1. depressant
              depressant 23 May 2021 10: 58
              +5
              Quickly scanned the material on the Reformation and Counter-Reformation. My God! As if I hadn't studied history at school. There really was a huge religious war, as a result of which Loyola appeared. Exactly. The armies went on the offensive, stormed and destroyed the city. It was.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 23 May 2021 10: 02
    +10
    English Parry Dagger

    Not as a reproach, but solely to illustrate the point that the names do not always need to be translated literally.
    Everything seems to be correct, in English this weapon is called a parrying dagger. But if the author used a French or Italian source, then the literal translation of the name, main-gauche in French or manosinistra in Italian - "left hand", does not look very clear.
    In Russian, this type of dagger for the left hand is called dag.

    Daga, master Pedro Velmonte, Toledo, approx. 1610 Hermitage, St. Petersburg
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 11: 00
      +5
      And here Viktor Nikolaevich returned from his dacha! We are waiting for the author of the article ...
      Meanwhile, Viktor Nikolaevich, in my opinion, daga is the evolution of miserecordia.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 23 May 2021 14: 39
        +4
        And here Viktor Nikolaevich returned from his dacha!
        Everything is simpler. I made the Internet at the dacha.
        As for the misericordia, this is an extremely highly specialized dagger to cut a half-dead knight or his horse. As you correctly noted, the Japanese counterpart is yoroi doshi (to be precise, this is the general name for the three varieties of the dagger - tanto, hamidashi, aiku - chi).
        As for the Japanese analogue of dagi, the question is more complicated.
        The Japanese school of fencing with two swords - niten iti-ryu (transliteration is a difficult question), assumed the use of both wakizashi and tachi for the left hand.
    2. depressant
      depressant 23 May 2021 11: 03
      +4
      Or, in common parlance, sharpening? wassat
      Viktor Nikolaevich, not to the detriment of you! love )))
      I'm just trying to hang myself in an unsuitable way. These daily efforts to maintain vitality are pretty damaging.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 23 May 2021 11: 14
        +3
        In common parlance ... On the one hand - yes, on the other - no.
        1. depressant
          depressant 23 May 2021 11: 24
          +4
          The dualism of things in nature. On the one hand, a frying pan is a means for frying a product, and on the other, a tool for the wife's domestic violence against her husband.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 23 May 2021 12: 52
            +5
            domestic violence tool of wife over husband
            1. depressant
              depressant 23 May 2021 13: 30
              +6
              Quiet Ukrainian night
              But the bacon must be hidden,
              Otherwise you will cry bitterly
              When he is dragged away

              Some kind of unsightly devil
              As soon as a case is issued
              Harsh midnight dense,
              And run away to the airport.

              All because the guard
              They are not carried at all according to the charter,
              Where is the lunar month for free,
              Goes on a spree with the stars.

              Mess! There of all races so
              From the drunkenness of the faces,
              And from the sky it will wait for moisture,
              Their slovenliness is like an extract.

              No, there is no charter on Earth
              But you can see him and above,
              There the commander does not care,
              To be a star on the shoulder straps.

              And the night is still quiet
              Where lard smells and vodka,
              And in the sky of the month there is a grin
              Bastards lead to sin.

              The role of the sentry is not easy .... (c)
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 11: 12
      +4
      By the way, the Japanese also had it, but did not get any development.
      1. depressant
        depressant 23 May 2021 11: 25
        +5
        Is the katana the head of everything? wassat )))
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 23 May 2021 11: 38
          +4
          Not. There was also yoroi-doshi.
    4. Catfish
      Catfish 23 May 2021 14: 31
      +6
      Good afternoon, Victor. hi
      I was also somewhat surprised that Vyacheslav uses such a long phrase instead of a simple definition - Dag. In our department, this type of dagger was not called differently, regardless of the version in which the individual specimen was.
      Dag with "capture" - he is also dag.

      1. depressant
        depressant 23 May 2021 16: 54
        +7
        Kostya .... ((((( belay ))))
        "In our department ..." Torture?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 23 May 2021 17: 01
          +7
          Good afternoon, Lyudmila. love

          .. "Torture?


          The Department of Weapons of the State Historical Museum, had the pleasure of working there for a long time.

          And why torture, do you have any vague associations with the Spanish Inquisition? Okay, I will not develop the topic.

          And these "mustaches" on the dag are used to capture the enemy's rapier blade with a very likely fracture of this very blade. As far as it went in real life, I don’t know, we didn’t try it.
          1. depressant
            depressant 23 May 2021 17: 58
            +6
            Already the evening is looking out the window
            The vagrant clouds are turning black
            They threaten what will be given to me
            Fall into the capture of a cruel dagi.

            Hee-hee-s! I can't get rid of the association, Kostya wassat )))
            Museum, then)))
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 23 May 2021 18: 30
              +5
              Museum, then)))


              Well, not a basement on the Lubyanka. laughing Although everything is nearby, and we drank a port bag with the guys from the Office in the courtyard of Khovansky's house. smile drinks
              1. depressant
                depressant 23 May 2021 19: 08
                +4
                Kostya !!! In fact, I have the greatest respect for working in these kinds of institutions. Museum, library, philharmonic for me are places of sacred power.
                But the last days are directing the movement of thoughts along a dark route. This dust storm in Astrakhan, which has never been there at all, but it is the same as in the desert. Again, a dust storm - just think! - in Altai! Synchronous falls of cable car lifts in Georgia and Italy, the death of more than 20 people in China while jogging along a difficult route, the death of people due to the failure of the podiums during prayers in Israel, a volcanic eruption right near some city in Africa ... Probably, there is something else that I didn’t notice, or, having noticed, I forgot to mention, but somehow it’s too much of this to ask: "What is actually happening?" Isn't that what Anton said? The very utilization of the population by the hands of the population itself. Only in the Middle Ages it was necessary to carry out the Crusades for this, and now it is enough to create a nervous pre-war situation in combination with an epidemiological one.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 23 May 2021 19: 34
                  +6
                  ... and now it is enough to create a nervous pre-war situation in combination with an epidemiological one.

                  Well, what do dust storms with volcanoes and cable cars have to do with this? You, Luda, dump everything into one basket and forget that every event has its own "roots" and some of them do not depend on people at all. I would rather believe that the old woman Earth, tired of too energetic humanity, decided to fight it with all the methods available to her, and the little people help her in this as much as they can. smile
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 23 May 2021 20: 30
                    +5
                    I knew that I would get a rebuke from you! wassat
                    So me, so, Kostya! ...
                    But one day I witnessed how they declared war. I did not know that. I was just staring into the street through the fence, about to go out the gate, and saw how the cars, just normally driving along the intercity highway, realizing a harmonious two-way traffic, suddenly began to collide, pair by pair. Moreover, cars drove out of the side street I needed to get to, my street, and with the same success. Soon there was a whole bunch of colliding cars. But none of them came out to download the rights. On the contrary, they, visibly beaten, parted, and, having dispersed, at high speed left the scene. Some are in the opposite direction to their previous one. As if people were changing some of their decisions. And all this was happening right in front of me. There was no way to go outside. I had to go home, but I couldn't cross the road. And then a man walked past, girded with automatic ribbons. He had a weapon in his hands, I don't remember which one. I asked him what was going on, he replied: "War!" There was a radio in the cars, the drivers heard the message. After some time, the track was almost empty. Now the cars appeared only occasionally and quickly swept by. And then I crossed the road and, in order not to go home along the street, for fear of being knocked down, I got to the house in a roundabout way, by lanes, across the railway, again by lanes, then I still had to go out into the street. It was completely deserted ...
                    And I dreamed about this trip home for many years. I walked this route back and forth and struggled to understand what the people around me were doing. In the dream, what was happening seemed understandable, but waking up in the morning and remembering another such dream, I realized that the actions of people and entire human collectives were absolute nonsense in him.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 23 May 2021 21: 33
                      +3
                      I didn’t have to take part in hostilities, but I was a stone's throw from the "White House" when tanks were thrashed at it from the bridge, and in our house, after each shot, dishes and window panes rattled. But this was not a war, but rather something like an attempt at a poorly organized coup. City transport functioned as usual, however, I had to make my way to the metro from Smolenskaya Embankment in short dashes, from corner to corner, from the White House they constantly fired single shots and bursts. But there was no sense of any serious catastrophe. Although people, of course, died on both sides. And there were no accidents on the streets, no one bumped into anyone, although there were enough people with weapons around.
                      I don’t know what I would do if the start of the war was announced on the radio, but I think I would have continued to do what I was doing before the announcement, I don’t see much point in twitching, much less causing accidents and traffic jams on the street. Although ... the crowd is a terrible thing, both in cars and so.
                      And where did this happen to you, one of our former southern republics?
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 23 May 2021 22: 55
                        +4
                        Yes, one of these ...
                        But I started talking about myself only because I felt on my own skin how war changes the perception of a person, how it leads to an understanding of something important. Do you think I panicked then? No, I was calm, just like you during the storming of the White House. The war was perceived as an unpleasant inconvenience from which you get wildly tired and for some reason there are gaps in your memory, such that sometimes you try to remember your name and cannot. But only a long time later I felt that I had become different. Consciousness was preoccupied with finding a way out of the multitude of inconveniences and insurmountable circumstances that suddenly filled life, and the subconscious was busy analyzing them and creating an image of an absurd reality in which one cannot live, but one has to.
                        Why am I saying all this?
                        And to the fact that war as an engine of technological progress has become customary at the subconscious level - a custom that has the form of a conditional, but rather an unconditioned reflex, one that must be performed. Well, there are different customs, in case of refusal to fulfill which a person becomes an outcast. War is a way of life for humanity.
                        And technology is needed to feed its entire mass. But they only arise when there is a war. It utilizes part of the people, and the remaining part, which is still greater than in each previous century, provides new technologies for feeding. That's what's disgusting. War is continuous and imperative. And if she is not present at the moment in a given territory, then it does not follow that she will never be here. And now the worried subconscious mind begins to catch its signs.
                        There used to be beautiful rapiers, fiery daggers, swords and armor. And now, great tanks and missiles. But the goal is one - to feed humanity by destroying its part and developing new feeding technologies.
                        These are such indifferent thoughts against the background of beautiful means of destroying a person of past centuries.
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 23 May 2021 23: 14
                        +4
                        "War is the hygiene of mankind" and "War is the engine of progress", all this has been said long ago, frankly cynical, but extremely true. But is it worth striking into dense pessimism, life is good in itself and, in my opinion, there is much more beautiful and attractive in it, it is like the same weapon - "Flowers of Evil", but they are beautiful and attractive. It makes sense to assume that "the glass is half full, not half empty." smile
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 23 May 2021 23: 55
                        +5
                        First.
                        Kostya, I understand that I expressed a cruel banal, but this does not change the fact that I came to her myself, without any prompts from outside.
                        Second.
                        The war did not touch me on the edge, but thoroughly, since it was formally declared in 1992, it really began for me in the winter of 1983. A decent amount of time, huh?
                        A person does not hit something, irresistible circumstances hit him against something, and not every moral invalid is capable of rehabilitation. But if you decide that you need to cheer me up in some way, then do not waste time on this. Domestic geese with clipped wings are even very cheerful, energetic and aggressively giggling, but they cannot take off.
                        Has a goose ever chased you? Do you know what their beaks are? wassat )))
                      4. Catfish
                        Catfish 24 May 2021 00: 07
                        +3
                        Goose goose - strife, as well as man - man. I believed that we were just talking and was not going to teach you about life. request
                        And what happened in 1983, I don't remember anything on the territory of the former Soviet Union?
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 24 May 2021 08: 15
                        +2
                        Kostya, there was something that I don't want to remember. But I remembered. Here at VO. I recalled in detail. And now I don't want to. Because the powerful of this world are preparing the ground for new memories, and the old have to be pushed to the margins of memory, leaving room for new ones.
                    2. vladcub
                      vladcub 24 May 2021 08: 43
                      +5
                      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, good morning. I live in the countryside all the time. I know perfectly well what geese or chickens are.
                    3. depressant
                      depressant 24 May 2021 09: 39
                      +2
                      Svyatoslav, good morning!
                      Did I hurt you with something? Has she personally reproached you with something? Or did you ascribe to me the saying modestly mentioned by Constantine "a goose is not a pig's friend"? You believe that if the word "goose" is pronounced, then this word can only be associated with this proverb and is purposefully aimed at insulting voluntarily, mind you, a person who has voluntarily turned up under this insult. Why are you doing this?
                      Meanwhile, in my memory, one of the many geese wandering around my grandmother's stockyard, hearing the screams of a flock of wild migratory geese, got up and, imagine, flew away after them. My grandmother was annoyed, my parents laughed, and I, having noted the fact, took up my childish fuss. But when in the fall a useful goose flew away after the wild geese with a loud cry, the large feathers on the wings of the whole yard livestock of geese were immediately cut off. There were a lot of geese, respectively, and fuss. I stood by and watched. Much later, my grandmother said that the pruning of feathers had to be repeated every year, since the wild geese, having chosen the route, did not change it.
                      Or did you decide that I meant wing trimming? With blood and meat, so to speak? Well, it was just necessary to clarify.
                      But for some reason you wanted to be offended. And, mind you, it was me, right? After all, your reproach in the form of a dislike is directed not to Konstantin, who hinted at a saying, but to me.
                    4. vladcub
                      vladcub 24 May 2021 11: 46
                      +4
                      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you have completely misunderstood me. You mentioned the geese, and I said that I have lived in the countryside all my life.
                      Goose accidentally ended up with a capital letter. Now I looked at my commentary, but the wording is not the most successful, but I have: "extenuating circumstances: I am at work, which means we need to pay attention once or twice
                    5. depressant
                      depressant 24 May 2021 11: 58
                      +3
                      Svyatoslav, okay, let's hide it for clarity, there are misunderstandings drinks laughing ))))
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish 24 May 2021 16: 47
                  +2
                  Glory, hello! drinks
                  You probably don't have such Geese. smile
                3. vladcub
                  vladcub 24 May 2021 20: 42
                  +1
                  Thank God, we did not have such and I hope there will not be
                4. Catfish
                  Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 26
                  0
                  Have you seen the movie "Wild Geese"?
                5. vladcub
                  vladcub 25 May 2021 08: 18
                  +1
                  I don't remember, I think not
                6. Catfish
                  Catfish 25 May 2021 09: 04
                  0
                  If I had seen it, I would have remembered it. There, the consultant was none other than the famous Michael Hoare (Mad Mike), and only the stars of that time starred. Look, you won't regret it.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 24 May 2021 11: 58
        +4
        Lyudmila Yakovlevna, for my mother: he will advance the "first bell" of the war in 1950, with my aunt in 1963. It was in 1971, then I was not directly affected, but it was still very creepy.
        I then stuttered for several days
      3. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 12: 12
        +2
        I understand you very well. Just what can we, who understand, do with this understanding? And I envy you)))
        Living in your own house and even in a village is not like living in a Khrushchev house. There are big disagreements with personal space. And if we talk about the insecurity of a separate house, then in Khrushchev, the insecurity is the same. And therefore the topic of personal weapons, at least in the form of a medieval blade, is always relevant. The only question is in the possession of fighting techniques)))
      4. vladcub
        vladcub 24 May 2021 16: 25
        +4
        Alas, I no longer live in a private house, but the so-called "Gorky lite version" for 4 owners.
        Owning a personal weapon has been relevant for me since the fall of 1975. Unfortunately, to this day, I could not translate into reality
        PS I live in the suburbs. As the saying goes: "God is not a candle, not a devil of a poker": central water supply, gas - as in the city; the land plot is (small) like a village. It is difficult to keep a subsidiary farm just like in the city
      5. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 16: 55
        +2
        Yes, this is why urban life is attractive - gas, water supply and sewerage, and battery heating wassat

        Don't you grow parsley? Otherwise, according to the new law, they will come to check - are they not for seeds?
      6. vladcub
        vladcub 24 May 2021 21: 27
        +2
        Lyudmila Yakovlevna, we recognize the root more, but it is allowed. In addition, the use of parsley for food is not prohibited.
        Hemp, "spinning" (as the people called it) in war, in famine, people grew up for food. Hemp seeds were fried and eaten. Mom says that even then they noticed that after hemp they were a little foolish
        I was in first grade, and the older boys were talking about: "high tobacco": hemp, parsley and something else were mixed with tobacco and smoked for a high.
        And kids, let's lie to each other: I just bought it or I'm going to smoke. We absolutely did not know what sensations are and each composed in his own way
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 May 2021 10: 43
    +4
    Quote: Sea Cat
    something like an attempt at a badly organized coup.

    From the point of view of a lawyer, this was not an "attempt", but a completely accomplished coup d'etat, in the course of which the president usurped power.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 24 May 2021 16: 51
    +4
    Misha, if you're talking about October 1993. There is too much "muddiness": they started with good intentions for the sake of and for the good, and the result is a triumph of reaction.
    Like a repeat of the Emergency Committee. One gets the impression that some puppeteer was sitting behind the screen and controlling
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 May 2021 17: 02
    +3
    That's why I wrote "from the point of view of a lawyer." In purely legal terms, Yeltsin's actions fall under the term "coup d'etat." But who was the rebel determines the final winner.
    Quote: vladcub
    One gets the impression that some puppeteer was sitting behind the screen and was controlling

    A very common sensation. smile Some even point the finger overseas ... And some even point to specific individuals overseas ...
    But from the point of view of a lawyer, these gestures, unfortunately, do not cost anything. request
  • vladcub
    vladcub 24 May 2021 17: 52
    +3
    "determines the winner" of course. Do you remember: "woe to the vanquished" who and when said.
    "Specific individuals overseas" you know, with all the rejection of "Uncle Sam", he is, to put it mildly, a good piggyback. This is conspiracy theories.
    There is more likely a "clash of interests" between the two groups. Have you seen piglets like a sow? In most cases, some pig starts pushing a neighbor, and if there are more piglets than nipples, even more so. What is this called by lawyers? It always ends with the "division of the spoils"
    Perhaps, I repeat, perhaps RI wanted to "squeeze" the cubes from Borka, while that "Caudle" had a big one. Or vice versa, someone from Borka's gang, near the very "imaginary" is weak, wanted Rusoanchik's cubes
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 May 2021 18: 55
    +1
    Quote: vladcub
    Have you seen piglets like a sow?

    Here, rather, spiders in a jar. There was a fight for power, and both the one and the other did not care what they would rule over, if only to be the first, the main one. The Bolsheviks acted in a similar way at the end of the seventeenth - against the background of general chaos and anarchy, they seized power by force, eventually breaking up the useless and impotent Constituent Assembly. The only difference is how Yeltsin and his clique used this power. Then, after all, many in Yeltsin saw a kind of Ivan the Terrible, a strong Russian peasant with an iron will and a steel grip. Many expected from him precisely that he would put an end to the mess, "put things in order," a kind of Tsar Boris.
    But Yeltsin, having taken power (absolutely illegally) and changing the constitution accordingly, immediately handed over this power to his associates and the plunder of the country began, while the "tsar" reveled in his "significance" from a secret briefcase. Shame.
    Would Rutskoi or Khasbulatov be better? Yes, it’s unlikely. It was they who then built themselves out of "statesmen" and "patriots". In fact, they are the same ghouls, only, apparently, somewhat less energetic, cynical and pragmatic.
    Overseas trace of these events? Easy. The influence of the United States on the leaders of the USSR and Russia at that time was enormous, and many decisions made by our elite were dictated to us "from there." I fully admit that it was the support of the West that ensured Yeltsin's victory in that dog dump, and not something else. Why they chose him - I don't know. Maybe he was just selling himself cheaper.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 18: 04
    +1
    Misha, hello. hi I’m judging from the point of view of an outside observer. Butchu was raised by one, and finished completely differently and not at all as planned by those who first "lifted their tail." It’s all up to me, I just watched with interest how they successfully bleed each other. Yes, and ended, as I expected, everything is in private, they kept the "conspirators" in the cell and shoved them into the governor's posts, but the "torn-off forelocks from the slaves" did not regenerate. request
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 24 May 2021 19: 05
    +1
    Hello, Uncle Kostya.
    During those events I was not yet twenty - what could interest me? Exceptionally, women, sports and studies, and in this sequence.
    I can only judge them as a "historian", using my current life experience and everyday logic, as well as the few information that has leaked to us. The real truth - who, when, why and why - we, in the sense of the people, and not we personally, will find out in a hundred years, not earlier, rather later - when the last of those who could communicate with eyewitnesses and participants in the events naturally die.
    In the meantime, this is all not history, but journalism. Look what srachs still arise about the seventeenth year. For many - until now! - this is a personal question.
    The coup of 93, of course, did not entail such consequences - it did not lead to a general civil war, although it could, but all the same, the passions will not be burned out soon.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 19: 54
    +1
    The coup of 93, of course, did not entail such consequences -

    It all seemed to me to be a poorly staged performance, a kind of amateurs' games, nothing more. Therefore, I did not climb.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 25 May 2021 10: 41
    +1
    And he did the right thing. At friends, the son got into this tramp and ... a bullet in the left elbow - the arm above the elbow was amputated. He was with those whom Makashov was leading to the television center.
    He is afraid that some kind of "left" sniper, at first him, and then on the protection of Ostankino.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 10: 51
    0
    There were enough snipers. The only thing they did right was to shoot several onlookers, and if I were in their place, I would have just thrown a grenade into this crowd. Until that day, I could not even imagine how many stunned people in the city: men, women climb onto the roofs of cars with binoculars, cameras, some kind of mass cretinism - in short, a crowd of spectacles found, and some even a bullet - these not a pity at all.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 25 May 2021 11: 59
    0
    What a "cruel"
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 12: 09
    0
    You should have seen these faces. People kill each other, albeit foolishly, and these goats are a free sight.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 25 May 2021 12: 15
    +1
    Then right
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 02: 07
    +4
    It was already in history. Since the Trojan War.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 24 May 2021 02: 58
      +3
      "The sunsets blazed and the wind beat in the face,
      Everything was once, yes it was. "(C)

      Insomnia too?
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 24 May 2021 05: 53
        +3
        Not. Eternal desire to communicate.

        "Cursed thoughts" (c).
      2. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 10: 57
        +3
        Thoughts torment everyone. But the torment is different. For example, sometimes at night I hear a neighbor sneaking down the stairs from the 5th floor, and then after a short time he also sneaks back. And I know I went for a bottle of vodka. He was tempted by a cursed thought about her. And what to take from him? Lost generation. His parents were engineers, and he was nobody. The mother died of cancer, and the father, a stroke, needs care. Both live on the pension of the old man, the son sometimes works as a janitor, replaces. There is a lot of competition for a janitor near your home.
        So you have to divide thoughts into low and high. But in general, everyone looks cursed. And whatever thought he expressed, there will be someone who is dissatisfied with it. Not realizing that the main thought that unites everyone is the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.
      3. Korsar4
        Korsar4 24 May 2021 11: 04
        +4
        The son, between the 10th and 11th grade, decided to get a job at McDonald's. So there is an interview in three stages.

        In our time, factories and plants worked - it was possible to find a part-time job.

        Probably a little pipeline is not bad. You will understand what you can push off from.
      4. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 11: 18
        +3
        And we have to start from the fact that, according to politicians who are stuck in thinking in the Cro-Magnon era, war is the main method for resolving the contradictions created by population growth. Global - is it impossible? Here's a local one for you. Oh, and local - is it impossible? Here's the insolubility of the contradictions of each with each. Competition reduced from the level of states to the level of their citizens - have fun! Dispose of each other. And we will help you in this with the growth of technical progress, making huge masses of people superfluous.
      5. Korsar4
        Korsar4 24 May 2021 12: 05
        +3
        We will not break machines and computers.
      6. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 12: 40
        +3
        But imagine, the Strugatsky seers in the book "Waves Extinguish the Wind" talked about two technological counter-revolutions - they just casually mentioned this. One is the Luddites, and the other? It means that something was already visible even before the beginning of the 90s. Yes, in fact, unemployment. Not with us, so abroad, but now with us.
        Bringing technologies in line with the growing population, which means stopping their complication and the development of science, is regression, but jobs are somehow preserved, albeit primitive.
        Either stop the growth of the population, and it usually stops due to a decrease in the rate of reproduction of the smart ones, - again regression. And then on the horizon, aggressive inclinations from some monstrous state begin to loom, which did not go to the regression of science and technology, but usefully occupied its population with a showdown of each with each - white, black, blue, pink, etc. - and with interest begins to look at the pathetic efforts to preserve the status quo of the regressing neighbor. And how can aggressive plans not appear here!
        And given the fact that an unwise neighbor can always be lured into the network of regression with various candies, it turns out that there will always be war on planet Earth. Because God is in heaven, and the Devil is on Earth, and candy is his invention.
      7. Korsar4
        Korsar4 24 May 2021 14: 26
        +4
        Biologically speaking, the world is captured by the offspring that is left. Another thing is that there are different strategies for survival.

        It is no coincidence that Lev Tolstoy at the end of his life wrote fairy tales, in which he called to work with his hands.
      8. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 14: 49
        +4
        Yeah ... The Great One understood what was what.
        Here take me. What can I build from what will be at hand at the hypothetical moment of turning into the garbage of the surrounding space? A good residential dugout with a rolling roof.
        Will I be able to protect the right to her?
        No.
        My kitchen knife can kill anyone, but anyone can take it away from me.
      9. rudolff
        rudolff 24 May 2021 15: 52
        +4
        "My kitchen knife can kill anyone, but anyone can take it away from me." Greatly said! Bravo, Lyudmila!
      10. depressant
        depressant 24 May 2021 16: 14
        +2
        Glad to see you, dear rudolff)))
        Just mind you, not me - a knife can kill. It's one thing to shoot at an enemy that is at a distance from you. And it is quite different to stick a knife into a living person. Psychologically difficult. A rapier, a sword is still at a distance from the target body, a fiery knife repels the enemy's weapon. The invention of the pistol largely solves the problem of self-defense.
        The main thing is not to smear wassat )))
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 24 May 2021 16: 12
      +3
      It feels like you are dreaming of a small arsenal.

      For myself, I would like a house with a well to be at a reasonable distance from jobs that can support a family.

      True, so far - one of the starting points - each completed quarter for schoolchildren.
    3. depressant
      depressant 24 May 2021 16: 45
      +4
      You see, Sergei, what a deal ...
      I have lived almost half of my life in an atmosphere of gunpowder smoke. This did not add up to the need for them to breathe, only in the idea that when it smells of gunpowder, you need to have a firearm at home.
    4. Korsar4
      Korsar4 24 May 2021 16: 51
      +3
      Yes, Lyudmila Yakovlevna. This one is felt.
    5. depressant
      depressant 24 May 2021 16: 58
      +3
      What does it feel? The smell of gunpowder in the air or from me via the Internet wassat
    6. Korsar4
      Korsar4 24 May 2021 19: 28
      +1
      The atmosphere of your half of life (of course, from your words).
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 24 May 2021 22: 37
    +1
    Good evening. I yearned for adequate communication and came here
    Lyudmila Yakovlevna, I'm ready to give you 3 +: "when it smells of gunpowder, you need to have a firearm at home"
    I live now, pah, pah, so as not to jinx it in a stable environment, but with the current government, this stability is illusory. And I would prefer to have PSM in my table. Somehow I don't really trust the current calm
  • vladcub
    vladcub 24 May 2021 21: 55
    +3
    I had a well as a child. And I know this "charm" well: the collar is heavy and strives to jump out of my hands. And if the bucket breaks, this happens periodically, oh, and it's dreary to get it. In our village, for some reason, buckets were in short supply
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 22: 37
    +1
    I love wells. "Crane" and looks good from a distance, and in the hands.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 25 May 2021 08: 15
    +1
    In our village they called "crane": a round log on which a chain with a bucket is wound
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 16: 27
    0
    Pole. The bucket clings to it. And a counterweight.
    The rail is smooth from the hands of many.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 25 May 2021 19: 11
    +2
    I saw it, but we didn't have this in our village. I saw such a crane for the first time in 2004 in the Belorechensky district, and then it was already abandoned. Are they still "alive" in your area?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 20: 19
    +1
    Less and less. But still there are.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 24 May 2021 17: 08
    +6
    Let's try: "all the troubles are from the computer. How people lived well, but some radishes: Zuse, Aiken, Lebedev and leg. Bad uncles invented the computer. And all the troubles because of it."
    But who will be Ned Lund?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 19: 31
    +2
    The computer, like everything else, is a good servant.

    But, a self-assembled tablecloth is better.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 24 May 2021 11: 04
    +2
    this is the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.

    And another Beethoven symphony will not work, everything is like in life
    https://youtu.be/vcBn04IyELc
    And this must be watched and listened to at the same time
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 11: 25
    +3
    Friedrich Schiller, "Ode to Joy".

    Joy, unearthly flame,
    The heavenly spirit that flew to us,
    Intoxicated by you
    We entered your bright temple.
    You bring closer together without effort
    All scattered by enmity
    Where you spread your wings
    People are brothers among themselves.

    Hug, millions!
    Merge in the joy of one!
    There, over the starry land, -
    God transubstantiated in love! ...


    And every time, reading these lines, I can’t help myself - tears are pouring.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 16: 48
    +3
    "I'm puffing on nebo tai dumka, I'm guessing ..." (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 16: 53
    +2
    “And behind her Ivanko
    Yak periwinkle winds "(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 17: 02
    +2
    Both of you are villains! Mockers! sad crying
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 17: 06
    +3
    Today I didn’t care about the ideal,
    And tomorrow he sold his homeland!
    ((( belay )))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 42
    +2
    "Today the guy drinks vodka,
    And tomorrow he sells plans,
    Military factory, damn it, factory ... "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 19: 29
    +2
    I agree for myself on the first and second points. How can you get involved with pirates?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 22: 04
    +2
    Likewise. We pirates are like that. laughing

    "On the stormy seas, glory to our ships!
    And no one invites us to visit, and above us is a black flag,
    And on the flag there is a white sign - a human skeleton, bones! "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 22: 40
    +2
    “But only to return to Portland
    We will never have to ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 22: 54
    +2
    "And our ships, swaying, will leave,
    Nobody waves them, saying goodbye, from the ground "(c)

  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 22: 59
    +2
    "They waved the sails at me" (c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 23: 18
    +2
    "Let's wave without looking, as they say at the front" (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 23: 25
    +2
    "Inside him, if a man" (c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 23: 27
    +2
    "Hey, brothers on the floor, - I'm screaming - men!" (C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 23: 32
    +2
    “The faces are terrible,
    Good inside "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 00: 19
    +2
    "So why did the natives eat Cook?" (C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 05: 35
    +2
    “Having said that we respect each other,
    We sit with Plato and think ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 05: 53
    +2
    "We sat drinking at odds
    Maderu, Stark, St. John's wort "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 06: 01
    +2
    "Black, reliable, gold" (c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 06: 09
    +2
    "Worshiping the god of gold
    People are dying for metal "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 06: 16
    +2
    “What was the ball:
    The intensity of movement, sound, nerves ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 07: 01
    +2
    "Although my nerves are tinned,
    The tranquility is over forever.
    Eh, you are my naked nerves! "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 07: 13
    +2
    “I came out tall and face:
    Thanks to my mother and father ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 07: 32
    +2
    "People to be that tall
    Simply, simply not easy "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 07: 36
    +2
    “I was a figure in my mother -
    Into the Brown Bear "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 07: 40
    +2
    "The bear found honey in the forest:
    Little honey, many bees. "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 07: 46
    +1
    “I am a cloud, a cloud, a cloud,
    And not a bear at all ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 09: 06
    +2
    "The clouds are rushing, the clouds are winding;
    Invisible moon "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 16: 30
    +2
    "Pharmacy. Street. Lantern "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 17: 15
    +2
    "Why did you, the street, become lopsided ?!" (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 19: 05
    +2
    “I just remember that the walls were covered with wallpaper” (c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 19: 44
    +2
    "Again they lead me to a blank wall,
    Well, what do you say, damn it, shooting again. "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 20: 22
    +2
    “But there was one
    Who did not shoot "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 25 May 2021 20: 24
    +2
    "Former best, but disgraced Shooter" (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 25 May 2021 22: 21
    +2
    “Don't shoot the sparrows,
    Do not shoot pigeons "(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 25 May 2021 23: 22
    +2
    Kohl is not ready to shoot,
    And pour it, just drink it!
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 06: 40
    +1
    Shevchuk has a good song. The first time I heard on the street - frost on the skin.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 07: 22
    +2
    Frost was on the street, apparently.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 07: 36
    0
    Not. Warm season. VDNKh. I think what I did there at that time.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 07: 48
    +2
    Possible option:
    So, citizen, rights to your name,
    But the registration certificate was not issued for you. "
    "Ah, sorry, power of attorney ... now ...
    Yes, here it is, with other papers. "
    "And the color and number of the car body
    According to the passport, not these. Why?"
    "And here, if you please, a check from the store,
    And a receipt for repairs. "
    "What's that sticking out from under the seat?"
    Is there a machine gun ?! And traces of shots! "
    "And here is your storage permit
    And application in case of need. "
    "The trunk is ajar for you - check it out.
    Oh, Lord, it's a corpse squeezed! "
    "And here is the death certificate
    And a transport order for delivery. "
    "But who packed it like this,
    With a blowtorch stuck in your ass? "
    "The dead man was a great original.
    Here is a will - he wished it.
    It is notarized. "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 08: 23
    +1
    What a foresight. Almost an episode from Pulp Fiction.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 08: 56
    +2
    And what about without her?
    Walking past the cemetery
    With dorblu cheese,
    I look at the grave mound with caution.
    Suddenly, a voice from the coffin:
    To accompany you?
    So very quickly I started smoking ...
    I have been dreaming of a hungry dead man ever since
    And at night all the doors are firmly locked.

    Almost (c).
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 11: 28
    +2
    Good cheese - a rarity in our times.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 11: 43
    +2
    Once I had a chance to read how dorblues are made by farmers near Moscow. They pour some ash into it. They say this is the way technology is supposed to. Anyway

    In misfortune or in sorrow -
    No matter how stressful it is
    Keep in control
    Brains, tongue and weight!
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 13: 33
    +2
    And smile too.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 13: 37
    +2
    If someone offended you - don't sulk, don't get angry.
    Come, crack in your face, step back and smile
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 13: 41
    +1
    Yeah. Despondency is a mortal sin.
    And you skillfully advertise active actions.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 13: 29
    +2
    "Look, pilot, how blue the sky is" (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 13: 34
    +2
    "We are not supporters of robbery" (c).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 13: 46
    +3
    We are only his adherents! ))))

    I lead a closed life,
    I live quietly, without disturbing my neighbors ...
    But I'll always come to the rescue,
    Of course, if the revenue is big! (from)
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 14: 34
    +2
    I live quietly, without disturbing my neighbors ...


    Good afternoon, Luda. love
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 15: 03
    +2
    Good afternoon, Kostya! love )))
    Yes, I am amusing myself little by little for the spirit of the spirit wassat
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 15: 11
    +3
    And here the turntables get me, the warriors have been crawling in circles for the second hour in the sky. And the neighbor drank his "Stinger". request laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 15: 30
    +3
    Didn't he have an RPG lying around? )))))
    All day long, machinery buzzes around the village: they clean trees of old branches, some trees are cut down, the trunks immediately fall into the unit, which processes them into sawdust, branches there too. And it’s only a pity that a huge meadow of densely blooming dandelions was mowed down - such was the view from the western window! There was only a view of the dandelions from the eastern one. And a wandering tree is in the middle)))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 15: 46
    +3
    Dandelion is the essence of a weed, it is completely superfluous in its garden, although it creates a mood.
    And RPG is superfluous, it's easier to put "Claymore". laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 15: 51
    +2
    Kostya, what a dull, judicious tone of a gardener and gardener! Dandelion is not only a small sun, but also a traveler around the world.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 16: 04
    +1
    Kostya, what a dull, judicious tone of a gardener

    Of course, but where to go, we have to mow them ourselves, our Tajiks left for their homeland because of Kovid, so everything is on our own neck and there is no time for romance. request
    And for traveling around the world, the state gives us tanks. soldier laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 16: 25
    +2
    "The soldier booted, a tear rolled down, a trophy saxophone wheezed. And on his chest glittered a medal -" For the city of Washington "(c)
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 17: 44
    +1
    Well, if you look at it through the eyes of an artist ...

    True, I have very little idea how these tanks can be delivered there.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 18: 07
    +2
    In advance. On giant tank carriers. Camouflaged under the accumulation of debris.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 18: 17
    +1
    Camouflaged under the accumulation of debris.


    Not a ride, you can hide in a heap of garbage only with us. laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 18: 25
    +2
    Then camouflage under a cloud creeping over the water is a weather phenomenon, quietly wash on a deserted shore, land tanks, they will dig in, again camouflage ...
    And not the whole armada at once, but in small parties in different places. And then activation by signal.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 18: 57
    +1
    Even Pooh didn’t manage to work like a cloud,
    And our lads ...
    In addition, "small parties in different places" will only lead to the occupation of local taverns, so much so that after the signal there will be no one to activate. soldier
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 19: 16
    +2
    From the bearded:

    "The morning melted in fog, the reeds rustled.
    Graceful as deer, drunks walked across the field. "(C)
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 20: 04
    +1
    "Alconauts of the Universe" drinks
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 20: 24
    +2
    "Their postures are strong, their laughter is contemptuous!
    The gait is sure - just not to jinx it!
    And let modesty adorn only those
    Who else has nothing to disgrace themselves with! "(C)
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 20: 29
    +1
    Okay, right on the podium for this trio. smile
    For it is said:
    "... When all four conditions are met,
    Reasonable men, of course, will drink! "(C) drinks
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 20: 53
    +2
    In fact, this is not really a quote. It is someone else's, but I have corrected it - I still take a sin on my soul! )))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 21: 13
    +1
    Well tweaked and to the point. I remember, in my childhood, all the boys in Moscow sang the converted lines from the song about "cosmic distances" and "dusty paths of distant planets."

    "Our traces will remain on the dusty windows of empty stores ..." p. folk) laughing
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 18: 34
    +2
    “As long as the greedy people around are alive,
    We will not let go of luck ”(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 19: 11
    +2
    "I won't give my debts to anyone!
    You need such money yourself! "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 19: 14
    +1
    “Because the owner is here -
    Nice guy Robin Hood "(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 19: 21
    +2
    "I once had a wonderful dream:
    Seven movers carried my salary! "
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 29
    +1
    "You don't need a knife for a greedy man" (c).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 20: 55
    +2
    A thief comes to him at night!
    His wife let him in
    So that everyone will be equally.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 21: 26
    +1
    "Old woman, close the door!" (from).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 22: 07
    +2
    I apologize! An awkward hand movement, and a minus came to you. From me. I corrected it for a plus, it turned out to be zero. Now I will look for where I can correct my mistake. I apologize.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 12
    +1
    Believe me, this is not a cause for concern. Moreover, the branch is overloaded.
    You can always quarrel - it is even more noticeable.
    And with the help of many plus signs, you cannot capture the world, and you cannot even raise the Hirsch index.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 22: 48
    +2
    Sergei, but I know I was awkward! I went to Vaschenko. So it's okay. And the topic is really overloaded, it is difficult to type on the phone. It's time to leave it)))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 51
    +1
    On your marks! Attention! March!
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 22: 59
    +2
    In this case, you need to say:
    - Get out!
    wassat )))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 14: 20
    +3
    "You were lying on the couch
    Twenty incomplete years.
    Silently I squeezed in my pocket
    Leading pistol "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 18: 37
    +1
    “And, listening to Chopin,
    The page fell in love with her ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 18: 54
    +1
    "Shot, smoke, flames flashed,
    Sorry for nothing now
    He lay with his feet to the door ...
    Elegant as a piano. "(C)

    Loved ... like.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 19: 12
    +2
    “I will not eat caviar,
    As usual, a bucket "(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 19: 39
    +3
    "Doctors overtook us with fear,
    They say salt and sugar are the white enemy!
    Didn't take vodka to this circle,
    Looks like vodka is a white friend.
    Don't go with your diet
    Caviar and a cigarette. "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 30
    +1
    "And I would have poisoned myself with a humpback" (c).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 20: 37
    +2
    With or without a tail? wassat )))
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 49
    +1
    The film is about bread. But the Far Eastern bears would support you.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 21: 04
    +2
    I guess not only bears wassat )))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 20: 08
    +2

    Sometimes you can and onion with radishes.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 31
    +1
    “I suppose we all respect potatoes,
    When to knead it with salt ”(c).
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 20: 45
    +2
    Has caught a cold. He covered himself with a towel over a pot of hot potatoes - to breathe. He grabbed a fork, mushrooms and vodka there. Hope it helps.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 52
    +1
    And you know a lot about medicine.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 21: 13
    +2
    And since childhood. They put my head in a potato boiled in my uniform. I breathed and suffered. And I don't remember what helped. I remember how my face became wet.
    By the way, anecdote.
    Family, 12 children. Mother boiled potatoes in their uniforms, put salt. The younger one eats with the peel. To the question "Why?" replies, they say, without cleaning it will have time to eat more.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 21: 32
    +1
    This is not an anecdote, but an experience of life in a large family.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 22: 01
    +2
    And once I had a chance to read it as an anecdote. People have forgotten what happened. New generations. Due to the lack of such experience in the new ones, they repeat the mistakes of the old ones. Hence the bad historical infinity in the form of a spiral of development.
    One loop is separated from the other by a small step, either progress or regression.
    I think we need a differentiated approach, two spirals. Technology and man.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 08
    +1
    It's just that there is more technology, and the experience of older generations does not lie on the surface. But no one bothers to look carefully.
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 22: 42
    +2
    I have seen.
    The first generation fights, suffers. The second knows about it, together with the first builds a peaceful life, improving it. The third no longer remembers anything, the irony in relation to fathers and grandfathers, they say, fools, remains in prosperity, which is always not enough, more is needed, ready to fight or destroy everything that is equivalent to war. Together with the fourth he fights, gets a terrible experience, a new round of the spiral. In the process of wars, military technologies are developing, which are partially converted into civilian ones, a new round of the spiral is already relying on new technologies and partly the third and completely fourth generations, of which the fourth, or the third, according to circumstances, on a new round takes on the role of the first ...
    This is very brief and schematic.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 22: 50
    +1
    Stage theory.
    And the generation is the classic 25 years old?
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 22: 56
    +2
    I did not go into this question especially, I just came up with an idealized scheme for myself, into which I still cannot fit the acceleration of the twisting of the rings. What makes history faster? Human or technology? How they interact - slow down each other, speed up and why the war. This is the main thing.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 23: 16
    +1
    A bit like Aurelio Peccei's thoughts.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 20: 46
    +2
    "Even though everyone is there and chemists, and there is no cross on you" (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 20: 54
    +1
    “Once he brought home something like that
    That dad and mom cried bitterly ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 21: 06
    +2
    "I don’t drip on your brains, guys,
    But here it is an inflection and a paradox:
    Someone is chosen by the pope,
    Someone is locked in a cramped box. "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 26 May 2021 21: 30
    +1
    "What a life without a teahouse" (c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 21: 34
    +1
    "... And neither there, nor syudy .." (c)
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 20: 34
    +3
    Eh, radish, how I loved it, but not - this is now my old diet. And as luck would have it - always full of it, beautiful and tasty, Israeli, in vegetable shops. And so I would like to help the country! wassat )))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 20: 48
    +2
    I don't know how Israeli, but in our greenhouse you will lick your fingers.
    I sympathize with you, Luda, in terms of diet, my friend recently got here, so it's not very convenient to even have a snack with him - he can't do anything. request
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 21: 25
    +3
    And you do not eat. For a friend. The smell of alcohol is hardly contraindicated for him.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 21: 32
    +1
    The smell of alcohol is hardly contraindicated for him.

    laughing He has already quit drinking for fifteen years, and I have been on a non-alcoholic diet for six months. But after all, no one canceled coffee with pies, and with it you just have coffee, under a cigarette, and he quit smoking at the same time when he was drinking. And now on a diet, so the question arises, was it worth quitting? laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 22: 19
    +2
    It was worth it, Kostya, it was worth it!
    And nobody needs to start. Nothing ruins the brain like alcohol. I am his staunch opponent.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 22: 29
    +2
    "Drunkenness is voluntary madness" (c) I know that. smile
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 13: 40
    +3
    I sit, smoke, look out the window
    And outside the window - such a blue!
    For my lost life
    Break and throw me a copper penny!
  • Catfish
    Catfish 26 May 2021 14: 24
    +3
    "The heart is beating more and more often,
    And I'm saying out of place:
    - I am the same as you, lost,
    I can't go back now. "(C)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Phil77
    Phil77 26 May 2021 16: 01
    +3
    * A bottle of kefir, half a baton ..... *
    There is no limit to our optimism, glory to us, optimists / uninformed pessimists /, or vice versa? laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 26 May 2021 16: 20
    +3
    That's right, Seryozha! good ))))
    "If life has become tight - look at a friend's face, look at this snout, remember everything that happened to you!" (C) wassat ))))))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 33
    +4
    "Tee said:" On Monday
    Let’s go through the barvinok at once. ”
    I am prishov, you are dumb
    Pidmanula-pidvela. "(C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 19: 33
    +2
    “And the fourth is not alive, not dead.
    Oh, don't give me back to my mother ”(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 19: 36
    +2
    "Your mother .... Your mother .... Your mother was arrested!" (C)

    (Opera "Mother" based on the immortal work of A.M. Gorky.)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 20: 34
    +2
    “Don't wait for me, mom,
    Good son "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 20: 37
    +2
    "Wait for me, just wait really ..." (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 20: 52
    +2
    "- We've been sitting here for a long time" (c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 37
    +2
    "A German is sitting, drinking cocoa!" (C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 21: 45
    +2
    "With saccharin ali without?" (from).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 54
    +2
    With Zuckerman, but not let Abramovich in! stop
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 24 May 2021 22: 41
    +2
    "brought the young mad-mind" (s)
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 17: 01
    +2
    Kostya !!! Well, Kostya, Kostya, Kostya! ...
    So, show your weakness, and they will immediately take advantage of it laughing )))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 29
    +2
    So it depends on which vizier "marvel at the nebo", or even it is unlikely to use it. laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 17: 35
    +3
    I puff on nebo, tai zirki count:
    Why am I not lyb, why am I not?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 38
    +4
    Why is there, and there is something on the "Swan". soldier

    MIM-14 "Nayke-Hercules", if I'm not mistaken.
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 17: 47
    +2
    And this is called "from a cannon on a lybid"!

    What a strange bird flew by, the swan thought, shrugging his shoulders on the fly. All to the north, and she to the south. Looks like the seasons are mixed up. Or have the magnetic poles reversed while the flock is in the air? We ought to warn the leader.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 17: 54
    +2
    So it depends on which "Swan" flies. wink

    What if the navigator with a hangover is on it, not only the poles, but confused the seasons? laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 17: 57
    +2
    And vorbsche confused everything!
    They chopped off their head and stuck a knife
    All enveloped in flames fall nobles!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 23
    +3
    "Head tied, blood on the sleeve,
    A bloody trail spreads over the damp grass. "(C)
    I feel that the tatra will come upon the smell of blood! wassat
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 18: 46
    +2
    But don't scare me!
    Impromptu!

    I went to Yandex - suffering without an edge,
    There everyone is expelled from the ambassadorial paradise,
    There they sit down thieves and scold bureaucrats,
    That they took a non-rank approved jackpot ...
    Returned to where the blades rang out
    Where murder became a painting in a museum.
    She sighed calmly, here you can laugh,
    The fun killer can't get here!

    Do you know the saying about the devil?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 52
    +2
    Do you know the saying about the devil?
    Which one?
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 19: 06
    +2
    And that one. You will remember the devil, and he is right there, and the complete collection of the works of obsolete classics in your hands heaps.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 19: 11
    +3
    Gogol.
    Yes, I myself am still a buffoon. In the fence of the church I will definitely not be buried.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 19: 19
    +2
    I feel that the tatra will come upon the smell of blood!

    She ran out of gas and the wheel was punctured. bully
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 19: 27
    +2
    This "monster", "on four bones" will crawl.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 19: 33
    +2
    Then we will urgently mine the approaches and buy Faust patrons, because you can't take it with a simple bullet! soldier
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 19: 39
    +2
    Only silver, consecrated, with a cruciform notch. And then, then you will have to finish off with aspen stakes.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 19: 51
    +2
    There are excellent sets, time-tested, just for this case. yes
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 19: 54
    +3
    "Van Helsing"?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 20: 04
    +1
    No, you need to invite him to serious business, but this trifle uh somehow yourself. laughing
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 18: 28
    +3
    "Yes, I'm a jester, I'm a clown ...
    So what?
    Let me be so called grandees, "(c)
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 19: 00
    +3
    Flowers drop
    Petals on the sand
    No one knows,
    How lonely my path is.


    "Ninja". Haiku of an unknown Japanese poet of the 17th century.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 20: 10
    +2
    "So a lonely pedestrian, whose heart oppresses fear,
    Doesn't look back, and hurries, And only looks forward,
    And he knows, he knows that a Terrible enemy is following him. "(C)
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 00
    +2
    Gray Volchok wanders sadly to fulfill his weekly obligation to grab Kostya by the barrel)))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 28
    +2
    ... grab Kostya by the barrel


    Well, if he has this beast next to me, it is unlikely that he will succeed. laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 38
    +3
    Kitten, soft, fluffy little animal ...
    I saw many videos of how cats attack dogs, disperse a whole flock, save brothers and even children. Cats are brave and fearless. Now I believe:
    You are not afraid of the Gray Wolf, Gray Wolf, Gray Wolf ...)))
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 51
    +1
    Today they again smeared my ear with iodine, grappled with someone. No damn territory will be divided. And the dogs were dispersed just by joint efforts.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 22: 00
    +3
    Those who have not seen the crows fight can sing an ode to the fearlessness and courage of cats.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 17: 57
    +2
    And to the melody of "Varshavyanka"
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 18: 01
    +3
    Anton, you mean "Once upon a time there was Henri the Fourth, he was a glorious king!"?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 06
    +1
    No, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
    "Hostile whirlwinds blow over us"
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 18: 15
    +2
    Well, forgive me, I forgot, it has not been sung for a long time! How is it next? "Black clouds are pouring rain"?
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 20
    +3
    Yes, everything is fine! This is me - a lover of combining the incompatible and cram in the uncrowded. Mind games, you know ...
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 18: 26
    +3
    Anton, why are you making excuses? You took me for the Commissioner from "Optimistic Tragedy"? Well, so I'm not her and not even he wassat
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 18: 46
    +1
    I wonder what the cat Leopold would have done in his time in Leopoldville? Somehow the music inspired me. wink
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 19: 17
    +2
    I do not know how then, but now he would have been mistaken for the spirit of Leopold II and subjected to a terrible execution under the tam-tam and spells of shamans.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 19: 31
    +3
    I do not think that Kotu with such a chevron on his sleeve is in danger there.
    And with Leopoldville, I just remembered a story when a dozen (I don't remember the exact number) white mercenaries seized the only airport in the whole country and set specific conditions: they were paid all the money and released from the country with their own weapons and in their own uniform, since They did not suffer defeat in battles and do not consider themselves prisoners of war. The conditions were met and they flew safely to Europe. smile
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 03
    +2
    And the black ones, feeling their hands in their empty pockets, cheered up: they had acquired valuable experience from the life of white people on the spot.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 33
    +2
    If only they sat in the depths of a certain part of the human body then, and they are there now. Information on this matter from my acquaintances who have been in different parts of this continent, and not only by doctors and soldiers.
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 44
    +2
    But the rate of reproduction exceeds conceivable limits. And, most importantly, the covid hardly takes them! Its sores are such that the virus, having modestly stood at the doorstep, got away.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 53
    +1
    Yes, even without Kovid, they die like flies, if it were not that, then it was impossible to breathe from them at all. Although in Europe it is already suitable for this.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 18: 49
    +3
    Well, yes, save us, Lord, from the evil one and from Lariska Reisner in the position of commissar (I will not go into details again laughing ).
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 19: 19
    +3
    Did you pray diligently for the night, Kostya?
    (Excerpt from Shakespeare's tragedy "Othello")
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 19: 24
    +2
    Did you pray diligently for the night, Kostya?


    My God is not with a cross, Luda. smile And at night I usually drink tea. request

    (And Othello became mad and killed Desdemona)
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 08
    +2
    I am drinking coffee! I don’t know who to spite. Probably to the doctor who would have forbidden, if I told him about it. But I don't go to sad and contagious places.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 21: 35
    +2
    I also never liked establishments, preferring to drink in a narrow circle of the house, or, if possible, in nature. smile drinks
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 19: 47
    +3
    I? Making excuses ?? In front of a woman ???
    Long ago I gave up this fruitless occupation.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 19: 35
    +2
    For which we appreciate.
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 05
    +2
    Woman or Anton?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 24 May 2021 21: 13
    +2
    Anton. And about the first, Budyonny spoke well towards the author of "Odessa Stories".
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 May 2021 18: 23
    +2
    Is this about innate vortices? what
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 31
    +3
    About the imposition of text on an absolutely unacceptable sound.
    For example, Rosenbaum's "Sadness Came" perfectly fits the melody of Leopold the cat's song.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 04
    +2
    Their zee in himmel,
    Und denke gedanken,
    Varum them nicht vogel?
    Varum nicht flige?
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 18: 19
    +2
    But with this I really fell down with laughter!
    love good drinks wassat )))))
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 27
    +2
    Uh-huh, I, writing this translation, also had fun. Then there was no laughing matter.
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 18: 49
    +1
    Have you been caught? And did you understand the text? Sorry! )))
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 18: 58
    +2
    Not. It was composed in the "abiture". But I flunked German.
    On the other hand, he did not become a shitty historian, he became a good builder.
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 19: 45
    +1
    Inspired by you, Anton.

    We all didn’t become someone shitty
    And our conscience does not gnaw at us in the morning.
    But in the distance a sick alarm is buzzing
    Once forgotten by us BAM.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 19: 51
    +2
    Thank you! Sometimes it's flattering to become a Muse.
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 20: 27
    +1
    In fact, I was in a hurry, I was distracted, I was wrong, and the first line should sound like this:
    "We all didn’t become someone bad."
    Then everything goes as it should:

    We all didn’t become someone bad
    And our conscience does not gnaw at us in the morning.
    But in the distance a sick alarm is buzzing
    Once forgotten by us BAM.


    And then I began to read now, and I think: something is wrong, where is the rhythm, where is the rhyme? But you are not to blame, you are a great Moose!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 20: 45
    +3
    You are a great moose
    Mon ami, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! I put, with a large device, on all these pseudo-gender complexes !!! Muses are women, and it is an honor for me to play the role of one of them!
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 20: 56
    +1
    Anton, I was joking! ))))
    Exactly as with the word "nobleman", for the sake of rhyme, remaking it into "nobles", may the great and mighty forgive me!
    So, from now on you are ... an honorary Muse! wassat
    It's like the Strugatskys:
    Young pedestrian
    ran to the transition.
    wink )))
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 21: 06
    +3
    Uh-huh. As well as:
    "They cut off the suckers with a laser,
    Snowflakes stick into his face.
    Will I reach the stops
    In the snow without drowning shoes?

    A plate is waiting for me at home,
    Buckwheat tarela with white boule;
    At the feet - a rubber warmer,
    And the tapas are soft under the chair.

    In an iron bath - two herrings,
    A bed with a pitchfork sticks out.
    There are glasses and bottles of water,
    She finished my lunch.

    I'll put some tea in my circle
    I will reveal "Kobzar" Shevcheny -
    Poet level Petrara
    And Valentina Matviena. "(C)
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 17
    +1
    Masterpiece! I laugh, I can't stop! ))))
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 21: 19
    +2
    You are not alone, all of Peter was laughing!
  • depressant
    depressant 24 May 2021 21: 23
    +1
    Yes, these are the delightful joys of communication today, the day was a success! love ))))
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 24 May 2021 21: 25
    +2
    So that's great! good love
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 24 May 2021 22: 39
    0
    This is Shevchenko
  • vladcub
    vladcub 24 May 2021 21: 41
    +1
    Kostya, something familiar, but I can't remember
  • Konnick
    Konnick 23 May 2021 11: 16
    +4
    It seems that the whole of Europe went crazy and all weapons were sharpened in a duel. If we consider the armament of the army of Ivan the Terrible, then the horsemen had sabers and short-barreled firearms, and sometimes a bow with arrows, and the infantry, in addition to squeaks, also double-purpose beards, as a stand for a gun and, accordingly, piercing-chopping weapons. Maybe there is someone who is an expert on the Livonian War, can tell whether the use of rapiers in this war.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 11: 36
      +4
      The rapier is a "city weapon", they went to the "field" with another.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 16: 53
      +3
      In Western Europe, they also fought not with rapiers and in armor. The rapier - "sword for the costume" - is a purely dueling weapon.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 23 May 2021 17: 00
        +2
        The rapier - "sword for the costume" - is a purely dueling weapon.

        I’ll clarify a little:

        Although in some countries, Russia, Sweden, it was used in the XNUMXth century both in the cavalry and in the infantry.
        - espada ropera (literally "sword for clothes") - designed to be worn with civilian clothes,

        This is from the article https://topwar.ru/39447-shpaga-voobsche-ili-shpaga-ili-rapira.html
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 17: 17
          +5
          XVIII century and XVI - different eras. It is incorrect to compare them, at least in this context.
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 23 May 2021 17: 38
            +4
            XVIII century and XVI - different eras

            The stump is clear, the rapier was no longer like their "antagonists" of chain mail, but there were swords. I will lay out another proposal from that article.

            espada ropera (literally "sword for clothes") - designed to be worn with civilian clothes, a little lighter and narrower than a combat sword, but with a double-sided sharpening. This type of epee was most popular in the XNUMXth century, but from the middle of the XNUMXth century it began to be supplanted by even lighter swords.

            I wanted to clarify the name, and you are right in the 18th century.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 23 May 2021 18: 37
              +6
              Terminology is also a complete mess. There is not and could not be a universal range of weapons. Often different things were called the same name, and the same things were called differently.
  • bk0010
    bk0010 23 May 2021 11: 52
    +3
    Something about the emperor's "rear" is not at all protected ... What if they attack when they got off the horse?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 13: 17
      +5
      What if they attack when they got off the horse?
      The last emperor SIGN died in field conditions 400 years before the creation of this armor. Drunk, he drowned in the river.
      1. depressant
        depressant 23 May 2021 13: 59
        +2
        Consequences of the drowning of Barbarossa.
        But at a time when ordinary subjects were crying bitterly, or maybe, quite the opposite, giggling maliciously, the ruling elite of the empire - princes, dukes and counts - demanded specifics: how dead, why dead, when did this happen and where, in fact, the body? And the rumors went different, the most contradictory ...
        The story of the death of the red-bearded emperor was instantly overgrown with details - unfortunately, fake. The knights who returned to Europe were not very aware of the details themselves, but when excited listeners are waiting for a detailed story, how can they resist and not finish the missing little things? All this was diligently recorded by the chroniclers - and the written sources, which historians will call authoritative in seven hundred years, are ready! Who does not know today that Barbarossa drowned in a river somewhere in the Middle East? Opening the books, we see detailed and colorful descriptions of the death of the famous ruler, as if the authors watched everything with their own eyes. One problem: descriptions don't converge

        Based on materials from legendapress.ru
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 23 May 2021 14: 03
          +3
          And the consequences were very far-reaching. Especially for the history of our country.
          1. depressant
            depressant 23 May 2021 14: 42
            +2
            Oh how! Suddenly, Anton, unexpectedly! And how fresh! Or am I not aware of something?
            Not to propose Hitler's plan "Barbarossa"! )))
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 May 2021 15: 17
              +2
              Yes, actually, everything is simple.
              The Third Crusade had an implicit, but main goal - to relieve demographic pressure in the second estate. And three leaders: the charismatic Richard and Friedrich, and the "bumpkin" Philip Augustus, who played his own "joker". According to Frederick's sinking, the German component of the event was "out of work" and was pushed aside by the more adventurous Anglo-Normans and Aquitanians. By the way, the Germans kept themselves apart, in the German knightly orders, at the beginning of their formation, only Germans were accepted.
              And then, hitting! Pope Celestine III publishes a bull (1193) about a crusade against the Baltic pagans. This is how the main meat grinder began in the Northwest.
              1. depressant
                depressant 23 May 2021 15: 31
                +3
                Ah, that's the point ... This bull was mentioned in passing in one of the nearest historical articles. It means that the Germans were taken out of the game, and the Anglo-Normans and Aquitanians got down to business and still cannot and do not want to get out of it.
                Severely. And, indeed, the connection of times through the centuries. But for some reason it seems to me that it would be so anyway. Not drowned, he died of old age. Just a delay in time.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 23 May 2021 15: 47
                  +3
                  Actually, I put it in a very simplified way. If we consider the situation from the point of view of the geopolitics of the Holy See at the turn of the 12-13th centuries, the "batch" turns out to be much more complicated. But the Church won in this round, not knowing how it would turn out in a century.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 23 May 2021 16: 03
                    +3
                    And if you highlight the main thing, then for me it looks like this.
                    The custom of fighting in the Holy Sepulcher, formed in the form of the Crusades, finally exhausted its possibilities, and, as you said, there was no longer any benefit from it, except for the utilization of the surplus of the population. Interests have shifted to the east. But Friedrich Barbarosa turned out to be an ossified, stubborn adherent of the customs of the past and, to the displeasure of all political persons, started an unnecessary campaign. And then he was most quietly disposed of away from the country and at the first opportunity. Indeed, during the crossing, it was enough to push a person off a horse and hold a lance under water.
                    So that he does not break politics.
                  2. Astra wild2
                    Astra wild2 23 May 2021 18: 03
                    +2
                    "how will it turn out in a century" and how did it turn out? Popes constantly, "muddied" something and were not always successful for themselves
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 18: 12
                      +1
                      It turned out that a certain French nobleman (conditionally French) gave the next representative St. Petra in the face!
                      (Historical bike)
              2. Liam
                Liam 23 May 2021 16: 02
                +2
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                And then, hitting! Pope Celestine III publishes a bull (1193) about a crusade against the Baltic pagans. This is how the main meat grinder in the Northwest began.

                Actually, the bull Divina dispensatione about the Christianization of the Baltic region was published by Pope Eugene 3 in 1147.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 23 May 2021 16: 07
                  +4
                  Actually, yes!
                  But does this deny what I have told you?
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 23 May 2021 16: 11
                    +3
                    Displaces some estimates. The death of Barbarossa and the events of 3 CP were by no means a trigger for Northern Crusades.It all started much earlier
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 23 May 2021 16: 28
                      +3
                      It is truth too. But, did the Holy See have to somehow solve the problem of the German "younger children", who were the "cannon fodder" of the Ghibellines, not spent by the next crusade?
                      In addition, in the very first comment on this topic, I noted that it was only after the bull of 1193 that the opposition of interests in the region began.
  • BAI
    BAI 23 May 2021 14: 24
    +4
    Parrying dagger with a "flaming blade", 1580–1620. Italy. In the lobe of the blade there is a pattern of holes! Dimensions: length 405 mm; blade length 268 mm; weight 420 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

    We read in the "Book of War" by Zurich Captain Lavater, compiled in 1644:
    When a soldier shoots a bullet of iron or pewter, poured into bacon, chewed, or chopped, or cut into four parts, then he should not be given any mercy. Anyone who shoots from a rifled barrel or a French fusée has thereby already lost the right to mercy, as well as those who shoot iron quadrangular, square or other buckshot, or bullets with notches, or they wear wavy swords, - they are guilty of death".

    The owners of such weapons, when captured, were immediately destroyed.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 23 May 2021 14: 50
    +2
    "the pattern is made of holes" His Majesty Show off. What is the practical use of this pattern? Don't think that I don't like the pattern. On the contrary, a rapier or a sword, I do not really use cold clothes, I don’t like it without decoration, but in everything one must observe the measure.
    How much this show of smut will provide the master! Not only is it good to open, but also show off
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 23 May 2021 23: 59
      +2
      "the pattern is made of holes" His Majesty Show off. What is the practical use of this pattern? Don't think that I don't like the pattern. On the contrary, a rapier or a sword, I do not really use cold clothes, I don’t like it without decoration, but in everything one must observe the measure.
      How much this show of smut will provide the master! Not only is it good to open, but also show off

      The key phrase of this fiery speech "
      I do not really care in the "chill"

      Translated into civilian language, it obviously means "I don't understand cold weapons."
      In a weapon designed for real combat, "show off for the sake of show off" does not happen, everything is thought out and serves its purpose.
      In this case, the holes serve to lighten the blade in order to reduce the load on the arm so that it does not get tired during the fight. Such a blade is not uncommon for a Dagi.
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 24 May 2021 08: 18
        +2
        Vic Nick, thanks for the hauling, but agree to overdo it with jewelry for the sake of fashion
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 24 May 2021 09: 03
          +2
          This is not a drag. This is information.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 24 May 2021 11: 35
            +3
            I'll know. I seriously thought it was for show off
  • NF68
    NF68 23 May 2021 16: 23
    +2
    As always an interesting article.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 23 May 2021 17: 55
    +2
    Good evening. Vyacheslav Olegovi, thank you for not forgetting us.
    "English parrying dagger. Made in Germany" and there were no blacksmiths in England? From the father-in-law I heard a sea of ​​delight from the "shefeld" steel.
    1. kalibr
      23 May 2021 20: 45
      +1
      Aster! Obviously, the dagger was made in England, but the blade is German. Henry often ordered armor and weapons from the continent ...
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 24 May 2021 08: 05
        +3
        The main thing for a knife is the blade, and the handle can be decorated in any way.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 24 May 2021 22: 42
    +1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    "Wait for me, just wait really ..." (c)

    "Just wait a lot" (c)
    1. kalibr
      25 May 2021 11: 43
      +1
      There will be more material and more about daggers. So wait! It is written ...
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 25 May 2021 12: 43
        +1
        If interesting, then we will read, but if not, read it yourself. Joke
        1. kalibr
          25 May 2021 17: 19
          +1
          Myself, Astra, I just finished reading. So now it's your turn. Today it will be 6 in turn. So you will see soon ...