The PPK-20 submachine gun will be included in the wearable emergency stock of Russian pilots

The new PPK-20 submachine gun and the Lebedev compact pistol (PLC) will be included in the portable emergency supply (NAZ) of the RF Aerospace Forces pilots. The decision on this has already been made in the Ministry of Defense.

The military department made a decision that the PPK-20 submachine gun will go into the NAZ packing, and the PLC pistol will be placed in the body unloading. Earlier it was reported that the wearable emergency reserve of the pilot (NAZ), fixed under the ejection seat, includes, in addition to communications, medicines, water, food, etc. shortened AKSU-74U assault rifle with four magazines and four to five grenades. A Makarov pistol or APS - a Stechkin automatic pistol - was attached to the unloading.

According to two sources cited by RIA News, at the beginning of this year were tested using a new weapons... It is specified that the weapon for testing was provided by four Russian small arms manufacturing companies. The highest score was given to the PPK-20 submachine gun and the Lebedev compact pistol.

In August 2019, information appeared that the Ministry of Defense was considering the option of including submachine gun pilots in the NAZ, but it was not about the PPK-20, but about the PP-2000. There was no information about replacing the pistol.

The 9mm Kalashnikov PPK-20 submachine gun is named after Viktor Mikhailovich Kalashnikov. Total length 640-700 mm, weight with loaded magazine - 3,65 kg, barrel length 233 mm, cartridge - 9x19 Luger, magazine capacity - 30 rounds.

Comments

[The leader of the Redskins]

I didn’t shoot from either one or the other, I didn’t even hold it in my hands. So I can't say anything.
I think the pilots will speak better about this castling. Although, I wish them never to use this or any other weapon. Better to let it lie on the ground.

[Grandfather]

The PPK-20 submachine gun will be included in the wearable emergency stock of Russian pilots

What's wrong with AKS-74? and it will be more "killer".

[g16.ru]

unification of bookmakers. PPK and PL-k under 9x19. the pilot has no task to fight with a rifleman - he needs to wait for the withdrawal group in an amicable way. if he entered the battle, consider it either a prisoner or a cold one.

[hrych]

When the Union collapsed, the managers rushed to make devices to NATO standards, they thought they would conquer the market with price and quality and earn dollars. But they were surprised that there was no market there. Orders are received by those who need it and for how much. These scoundrels rushed to tyrannize the domestic market, through corrupt bureaucrats and generals, let's push through the Luger, fascist-Nazi standard 9x19. They wanted to encroach on our submachine gun standards, but it didn't work, but they pounced on the pistols. A pistol, it's for the army ... well, unless you shoot yourself in time. Therefore, they allowed the lousy General Staff, Yarygin and Lebedev to try to introduce it. And not that pistols are rubbish, but they are rubbish, but a flawed standard. Our standards are the winners in the Great War, in which we completely outplayed them by shooting and made a 7,62x39 submachine gun and a 9x18 pistol from our experience. ... At first, the Americans killed their Colt with this standard after the Vietnam shame, then after Iraq and Afgan, Beretta did it. Now they are introducing ZigSauer. And the problem is also not of these systems, but of a flawed standard. Now this muck has gone to us. At the end of the war, 9 mm was introduced, as having the best stopping effect (looking at the Luger's experience), and the gunpowder load was reduced (looking at the experience of Luger and TT-okolomauser). Moreover, an army APS (for car crews) and a police headquarters PM were being developed at the same time. If the curved hands have complaints about the PM, although for what it is made, it fulfills 100%, then no one has any complaints about the APS, where the capabilities of 9x18 are fully implemented, without sacrificing reliability. Moreover, it is also a submachine gun with an aiming range of 200 meters. No one can think of a better APS for pilots. Everything will be bulky and heavy manure.

[Yves762]

Quote: g16.ru

unification of bookmakers. PPK and PL-k under 9x19 ...

There, the idea was to transfer the "main caliber" from under the chair to the unloading.
If they could place the PPK-20 "on the carcass", with its weight and dimensions, then the AKS-74u could (despite the fact that the latter is even lighter) - there is no point in replacing it.

Quote: g16.ru

... he needs to wait for the withdrawal group in an amicable way. if he entered the battle, consider it either a prisoner or a cold one.

From this logic, and APS with a holster-butt, b was enough; again easier ...
..............
Here! By the way! And here it was:

GAU-5 / A for emergency situations. The US Air Force is mastering the survival rifle.

(https://topwar.ru/167988-vvs-ssha-osvaivajut-novuju-vintovku-vyzhivanija.html)
Even the bourgeois thought that it was necessary to know when to stop with ersatz.!

[Cympak]

I think that a pilot does not need a high density of fire, but that he needs noiselessness and high lethality. Based on this, the PPK-20 should be replaced with the SR-3M "Whirlwind" with a silencer and SP-6 cartridges. Cartridges 9x19 against body armor are not effective. Shooting them will only make the capture group angry.

[g16.ru]

Quote: Cympak

I think that a pilot does not need a high density of fire, but that he needs noiselessness and high lethality. Based on this, the PPK-20 should be replaced with the SR-3M "Whirlwind" with a silencer and SP-6 cartridges. Cartridges 9x19 against body armor are not effective. Shooting them will only make the capture group angry.

Fight off militia and / or patrol forces. Neither a wearable BC nor pilot training is designed for a long fire fight.
The PP has less ammunition weight, after installing the muffler, stealth and accuracy is more than that of the Ksyuha.
Ideally - I agree, something like a vortex with sp6 / pub9 (it is not important what), or some kind of system under .45 ACP which is very well muffled by sound.
But here the question is in the weight of the BC - the flyers are still not special forces, it is more important for them to remain mobile on the ground.
And try to run with a large BC after the adrenaline rush upon landing, taking into account the non-zero probability of injury in the process.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: g16.ru

PP has less BC weight

So after all, we have chosen, probably, the heaviest of the PP. For example, the SR-3 "Whirlwind" chambered for 9x39 weighs 2 kg without a magazine - almost a third less than the PPK-20. That is, in addition to 1 kg of cartridges, you can take more, only at the expense of a lighter machine gun, with the same total weight of the weapon with ammunition.

[English tarantas]

Forget that the pilots do not know how to shoot, they just need a burst and more cartridges. In general, the task is to stay in the farthest corner and not shine, and therefore if it is shooting, then it means that the enemy has found it, and there it is no matter whether it is loud or quiet. Because there was an ax74u in the kit, I don't know what the problem is, just shove the ak74m, well, maybe it really doesn't fit, I don't know, or heavy.

[Petroff]

Yes, everyone agrees ...
This boat is not the first year, well, I don't like AKS74U ... Why? Some say light bullets in greenery deflects branches. Well, Duc is the same Vortex, compact and lightweight.
Someone wanted a pistol cartridge ... Well, Duc is the vaunted PP-2000. Even more compact.
No, you need to change the Kalash .... Again, for the Kalash. Does the concern need orders? Rollbacks and loot?

[Old tanker]

Perhaps you are right. If one of the weapons is damaged during the ejection, then its ammunition can be fired from another. But with PM / APS and AKSU this will not work.

[Petroff]

PP-2000 chambered for the same cartridge. What did you not please? We take this under-fired pistol, throw out nafig, take the PP-2000, which will replace both, and by half, or even three times less in weight ... And it will not yield in efficiency.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: g16.ru

unification of bookmakers. PPK and PL-k under 9x19. the pilot has no task to fight with a rifleman - he needs to wait for the withdrawal group in an amicable way. if he entered the battle, consider it either a prisoner or a cold one.

If unification according to BC, then we could have found an easier PP for the pilot. We release a bunch of them
If it is more lethal than the AKS, then again, there is an AM-17 chambered for 5,45mm, it is in the same dimensions but half a kilo lighter.
Or its low-noise version AMB-17 (2,9kg) chambered for 9x39 mm

PPK-20 is both dimensional and relatively heavy for a pistol cartridge. I do not understand the logic of choosing it for the pilots.

[Captain Pushkin]

Quote: g16.ru

if he entered the battle, consider it either a prisoner or a cold one.

If I had my way, I would have given the order to the pilots not to shoot at all, but to surrender immediately - there is a chance that it will be possible to exchange or redeem. The pilot is painfully dear nowadays, so you don't understand why.

[Aviator_]

What's wrong with AKS-74? and it will be more "killer".

The cartridge is highly redundant.

[ssergey1978]

For whom is it redundant? This cartridge allows you to use the AK in the dimensions of the PP as a full-fledged rifle.

[Aviator_]

For a submachine gun, it is in this class of weapons that the AKS-74U is located

[ssergey1978]

50 years was not redundant and now I’ll give it up. The energy of the AKS74U 900 J is quite the same as that of the PP, but the bullet has a higher velocity, flatness and lethality. Actually, many countries have chosen this path.

[Aviator_]

It has been redundant for all 50 years, this cartridge is simply not for a submachine gun in principle. Kalashnikov pushed through this system with his authority.

[ssergey1978]

Apparently heckler kokh, and stouger and galil and many many others also sold with their authority. And there will be 5.56 help

[Aviator_]

Does Galil have the dimensions of AKSU? Oh really?

[ssergey1978]

And what are you just for galil to catch? There is also a smaller system, moreover, in each country that produces weapons.

[Aviator_]

You brought him in the general list, so I mentioned Galil. My idea is that the 5,45x39 cartridge is not designed for submachine guns. Its scope is AK-74, AKSU is a dead-end branch.

[ssergey1978]

Galil MAR length with folded stock 445 mm barrel length 210 mm weight 2.98 kg caliber 5.56 that's really

[Yves762]

Quote: Aviator_

For a submachine gun, it is in this class of weapons that the AKS-74U is located

With a fright?
Intermediate cartridge - no?

You know,

In 1973, experimental design work on the "Modern" theme was opened in the USSR to create a 5,45-mm small-sized machinedesigned for arming grenade launchers, calculations of artillery guns, crews of armored vehicles, technical units, etc. servicemen for whom the machine gun was a self-defense weapon. ...

.
And also (before it started) the following were sawn: A.V. Shevchenko's "Smerch" machine gun (project), Dragunov's small-sized machine gun MA, Tkachev's AO-46, Stechkin's small-sized machine gun TKB-0116 ... etc.
The bourgeois did not lag behind either: M16 Colt Commando, M4 CQBR, SG 552 Commando, KAC PDW ...
Not to mention the fact that "commercial" saws; and weapons under 9x39.

So a small-sized machine gun is a separate sect, and the AKS-74u is an adherent of it!


P-s. S-s.
Food for ...

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- https://raigap.livejournal.com/84534.html ;
- http://weaponland.ru/load/malogabaritnyj_avtomat_dragunova_ma/21-1-0-661 ;

- https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82-%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%91%D1%82 ;
- https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD#%D0%9F%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%BF%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%8B .

[ROSS_51]

Quote: Aviator_

For a submachine gun, it is in this class of weapons that the AKS-74U is located

Do you calculate the weapon class by barrel length?

[loki565]

Rather, it means that a powerful cartridge gives a strong spread when firing in bursts.

[aglet]

"The cartridge is highly redundant."
let it go. mass-produced 5,45X39, anyway cheaper than a specially made 9X19, and there is where to get it, if that

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Aviator_

The cartridge is highly redundant.

Don't write nonsense. This is for the police use the term "excess capacity of the cartridge", and for the army, the more powerful, the better. There are no strangers on the battlefield, and there is no risk of catching civilians if the bullet sews through the enemy's carcass and travels further.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

For PBS, redundant.

[Yves762]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

This is for the police use the term "excess capacity of the cartridge", and for the army, the more powerful, the better.

... ...

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Do not write nonsense.

7,62x51 for "assault rifle" / assault rifles / machine guns just turned out to be redundant.
Like the 7,92 × 57 for the FG-42 earlier ...

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: Yves762

7,62x51 for "assault rifle" / assault rifles / machine guns just turned out to be redundant.
Like the 7,92 × 57 for the FG-42 earlier ...

Don't write nonsense. The 308 turned out to be excessive for machine guns due to its strong recoil and the large weight of the cartridge; American soldiers did not complain about the "excess power of the cartridge". A 5,56 caliber bullet weighing 4 g flies out of the M16 barrel at a speed of 1000 m / s, a 7,62 caliber bullet weighing 10 g flies out of the M14 barrel at a speed of 850 m / s, as you can see, the recoil momentum of the cartridge 7,52 * 51 is approximately twice the recoil momentum of cartridge 223. It was impossible to shoot accurately with bursts from the M14, as the Vietnam War showed. Plus, cartridge 308 weighs about 22 grams, cartridge 223 about 12 grams, that is, 100 cartridges of 308 caliber will weigh 2,2 kg, and 100 cartridges of 223 caliber will weigh only 1,2 kg. The difference is huge! You can't carry a lot of 308 rounds in the jungle.

[Yves762]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

The 308 turned out to be excessive for machine guns due to its strong recoil and the large weight of the cartridge; American soldiers did not complain about the "excess power of the cartridge".

...... yeah ...
...... That's where you need to start.
...... Although, nafig ...

They also did not complain about the "power", in the sense of striking properties, of intermediate cartridges.
But the "power" going into the weight / recoil (parasitic ts) is very yes. As a result, we decided to reduce the "excess power" in its parasitic part. This is the point that makes your "the more powerful, the better" nonsense.

[Eug]

The range of 308 in the jungle is excessive, the PPSh with its rate of fire is just that.

[Petroff]

Ummm. And do you shoot a lot of PPSh at distances of 500-700m? But 308 for them is the most ... PPSh in modern realities, unless in urban battles to use, in an open field and in the mountains, a man with a submachine gun will be shot before he can use it.

[Eug]

Is there a distance of 500-700 meters in the jungle?

[Petroff]

Do our pilots fly over dungles exclusively?

[English tarantas]

7,62x51 for "assault rifle" / assault rifles / machine guns just turned out to be redundant.

Only in terms of the fact that the cartridge has a powerful charge, which gives a high firing range, but since at the cost of high recoil and heavy bc, and the range is far beyond human capabilities, it is redundant. Therefore, they began to make a cartridge with an adequate range and recoil, but at the same time any game of the 4.6mm type did not go into service, since the power is really small.

[Aviator_]

Flash when fired and overheating of the barrel - that's it, little things. Oh well.

[English tarantas]

The Americans have an m4 with them. Not redundant, because the people following the fallen pilot are usually either motivated or motivated and professional and a pistol cartridge wound will not stop them.

[Alexander Terentyev]

The compactness of the new weapon is forced - the pilot's ejection seat cup is limited in its three-dimensional dimensions. Attaching a submachine gun and a machine gun on the pilot's chest is inconvenient, because it interferes with the control of the aircraft. Of course, you can shove a grenade launcher into the pilot, but you will have to remodel the seat and the entire cockpit of the combat aircraft.

[uav80]

The factories have been lobbied, they also want to eat, so they have pushed them through. "Ksyusha" then everything is old, it makes no sense to do new things if the warehouses are overwhelmed ..

[hagen]

Quote: Dead Day

What's wrong with AKS-74? and it will be more "killer".

I would even suggest the simple AKS-74. With the stock folded, it is also not great. By weight in the equipped state a little more than PPK. But the power and sighting range cannot be compared. Best the enemy of the good.

[seacap]

Dimensions, weight, weight and quantity of non-paper containers. This is not special forces, few pilots generally know how to shoot tolerably well, there is no special need for this.

[Incvizitor]

Considering that now all and sundry body armor dragging would give out sr-3

[tech3030]

Well, at the shooting range you need to shoot, and so yes, it's better not to use it.

[zenion]

Can Das Stinger arm them at the same time?

[Vikxnumx]

So the AKS-74u will be easier ... Or just need to attach a toy? So there are a bunch of compact PCs.

[-Dmitry-]

"One-armed" who? :) These are suitable for specialists, not for military pilots. For them, the classic scheme (butt, fire control knob, forend) PP will be better.

[Vikxnumx]

"One-armed" which?

Not only. The Ministry of Internal Affairs has all sorts of weapons in service.

[Vikxnumx]

PP-19-01 "Vityaz", PP-91, OTs-02 (TKB-0217) "Cypress" - serial and "two-handed" ...

[-Dmitry-]

PP-19-01 "Vityaz", PP-91, OTs-02 (TKB-0217) "Cypress" - serial and "two-handed"

The knight is, in fact, the PPK-20. Cypress and Cedar under 9x18 - obviously less powerful cartridge.

[Vikxnumx]

Cypress and Cedar under 9x18 - obviously less powerful cartridge.

PP to remake for a different cartridge ... SERIOUS PROBLEM!
The Czechs have a look at the entire line of PPs after WWII. For all options!

[-Dmitry-]

PP to remake for a different cartridge ... SERIOUS PROBLEM!
The Czechs have a look at the entire line of PPs after WWII. For all options!

Something I don’t understand - at first you didn’t like the PP, then you didn’t like the caliber, then the problem is in the PPK-20. Will you decide to begin with what you don't like?

[Vikxnumx]

I didn't like the weight of the PP. I do not see any advantages over AKSU. Where did I dislike the caliber? There are more compact versions of serial PCBs.

[-Dmitry-]

did not like the weight of the PP. I do not see any advantages over AKSU.

Just because of the weight, don't you see the benefits? :) There are many advantages - the butt, adjustable in length, so that they don’t speak here, and the weapon’s handiness greatly affects the shooting accuracy. In short, folded. With the same ammo weight, you can take a lot more rounds. Well, the ergonomics of the PPK-20 is better. And you say there are no advantages.

There are more compact versions of serial PCBs.

Cedar? Cypress? 9x18 that says it all. Despite the fact that the Cedar, with all its other advantages, does not shine with ergonomics - as it was a development of the 60-70s, in fact, it remained so in essence.

[Vikxnumx]

There are many advantages - a buttstock adjustable in length, no matter what they say here, and the weapon's attachment greatly affects the accuracy of shooting. In short, folded.

The stock can be transferred to the AKS-74u. Initially, there (on the PP) there was an AKS stock ... Open the Kalashnikov website.
Ergonomics! Everything will become regular.
In short when folded? Exactly? By what means? In one receiver with practically the same barrel length ...
Is the BC more? Arrange a firefight with enemy infantry? Crushed by fire ...
If you poke into the NAZ PP, you need to choose more compactly, and not the same weight and dimensions.

[-Dmitry-]

The stock can be transferred to the AKS-74u. Initially, there (on the PP) there was an AKS stock ... Open the Kalashnikov website.

Nobody will be involved in modifying an obsolete machine gun when there is the same 105. Or do you want to shift this issue onto the shoulders of the pilots? Initially (with a stock from AKS), this PP was called Vityaz-SN. With a new butt, he is already PPK-20.

Is the BC more? Arrange a firefight with enemy infantry? Crushed by fire ...
If you poke into the NAZ PP, you need to choose more compactly, and not the same weight and dimensions.

Do you think that with Ksenia it will be possible to shoot the enemy's infantry? :) Or, for example, with PP-2000? :) Again, why does everyone think that they are smarter than specialists in MO? Like all the rams there are corrupt? :) The article says that 4 weapons took part in the competition. PP-2000, I think, including, especially since they previously wrote that they wanted to add it to the NAZ styling.

[mat-vey]

Quote: VIK1711

So the AKS-74u will be easier ...

Have you added PBS-4? PPK-20 with PBS ...

[Blackgrifon]

AM-17 will be easier. But the problems with the dimensions of the AKSU were described by the Fighterbomber in one of his posts.

[Konnick]

weight with loaded magazine - 3,65 kg

And the meaning? When AKSU-74 weighs 3,00 kg or less with a loaded magazine.

[-Dmitry-]

And the meaning? When AKSU-74 weighs 3,00 kg and shorter with a loaded magazine

The point is that the shooting from the PPK will be more precise.

[mat-vey]

Quote: -Dmitry-

And the meaning? When AKSU-74 weighs 3,00 kg and shorter with a loaded magazine

The point is that the shooting from the PPK will be more precise.

So the PPK-20 PBS has a regular one like ... it will "shine" less ..

[Petroff]

I don’t think so. AKS74U does not smear at 50 meters either. :)

[mat-vey]

What did you mean?

Quote: petroff

I don’t think so. AKS74U does not smear at 50 meters either. :)

PBS-4 weighs more than 0,5 kg ... Or do you suggest the flyers open a shop with cartridges?

[aglet]

"The point is that the firing from the PPK will be more precise."

50 meters? may be

[-Dmitry-]

50 meters? may be

It's easy at 100 meters. With the skill and at 200 you can.

[aglet]

"It's easy at 100 meters. With the skill and at 200 you can."
have you tried for a kilometer? pistol cartridge? and where did the pilot get the skill?

[-Dmitry-]

have you tried for a kilometer? pistol cartridge? and where did the pilot get the skill?

Try it yourself.

"It's easy at 100 meters. With the skill and at 200 you can."

And pilots do not need long distances in self-defense. As practice has shown, pilots fire at fairly short distances.

[aglet]

"Try it yourself."
yes I tried, that's why I say

[-Dmitry-]

yes I tried, that's why I say

A kilometer with a pistol round? :) Was there any common sense in such testing?

[aglet]

"A kilometer with a pistol cartridge?"
yes no, just 100 meters

[Trapp1st]

The point is that the shooting from the PPK will be more precise.

Well, let's say, this does not explain the choice of PPK-20, why not PP-19, for example? Lightweight, compact, with a capacious magazine ... All this is strange.

[-Dmitry-]

Well, let's say, this does not explain the choice of PPK-20, why not PP-19, for example? Lightweight, compact, with a capacious magazine ...

And why is Bizon not in service anywhere in the National Guard? :) Because screw shops have a bunch of childhood diseases. If in the special forces of the Rosgvardia this one can ride, then in the army there is no way. An absolutely reliable weapon is needed there. For the same reason, the RPK-16 with a drum is in no hurry to be adopted - a problem with tambourines.

[Trapp1st]

If in the special forces of the Rosgvardia this one can ride

Well, the pilot is not a little infantryman either.

[-Dmitry-]

Well, the pilot is not a little infantryman either.

MDA ...

[Kot_Kuzya]

Are they cutting the budget again? Why the heck to buy this PP, if it is not less than AKS-74U in size and weight? And the power and range of aimed fire are generally incomparable! Moreover, the cartridge is Luger, that is, it is necessary to separately purchase cartridges 9 * 19 for them. I can’t call it anything other than a cut of the budget!

[Grandfather]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Are they cutting the budget again?

others have no explanation or argument.

[-Dmitry-]

Moreover, the cartridge is Luger, that is, it is necessary to separately purchase cartridges 9 * 19 for them. I can’t call it anything other than a cut of the budget!

Actually, cartridges of 9x19 caliber have been produced here for a long time. The same PYa (Viking) 9x19 was put into service. What nafig saw cut?

[Grandfather]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Moreover, the cartridge is Luger, that is, it is necessary to separately purchase cartridges 9 * 19 for them. I can’t call it anything other than a cut of the budget!

Actually, cartridges of 9x19 caliber have been produced here for a long time. The same PYa (Viking) 9x19 was put into service. What nafig saw cut?

such a nafig "cut" that this "pukalka" is not a fig does not exceed the AKS74U-meaning in it for pilots? conclusion-push through the order.

[-Dmitry-]

such a nafig "cut" that this "pukalka" is not a fig does not exceed the AKS74U-meaning in it for pilots? conclusion-push through the order.

Doesn't excel in what? Their effective firing ranges are about the same, because because of the short barrel of Ksenia, there is no point in shooting further 200m. All over the world, PDW weapons are mainly PP. In terms of accuracy and accuracy of fire, the PPK will clearly be better. Ksenia is a long time ago, not even yesterday, but the day before yesterday.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

All over the world, PDW weapons are mainly PP.

NAZ weapons of the American Air Force.

The rest of the "survival rifle" GAU-5 / A is no different from the standard M4

[-Dmitry-]

NAZ weapons of the American Air Force.

And in size too. In NAZ it is packed in disassembled form.
Here, for example, they describe it quite critically
[media = https: //army-news.org/2019/06/vintovka-dlya-samooborony-letchikov-ssha/]

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

And in size too. In NAZ it is packed in disassembled form.
Here, for example, they describe it quite critically

So why don't Americans put compact, heaped and wonderful PPs to their flyers in NAZ? They already have the arsenal of the entire NATO at their service, and not only.

[-Dmitry-]

So why don't Americans put compact, heaped and wonderful PPs to their flyers in NAZ? They already have the arsenal of the entire NATO at their service, and not only.

Well, until a certain time, they generally flew with knives and pistols. However, like ours, for the APSs, Ksenia, with which our pilots are now flying, they are not included in the NAZ kit. They take what fits into the holster of a flight suit, or into the cockpit of a helicopter / plane.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Well, until a certain time, they generally flew with knives and pistols.

It's about the present tense.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Ksenia, with whom our pilots are now flying, they are not included in the NAZ kit. They take what fits in the holster of the flight suit, or in the cockpit of the helicopter / plane.

In Afghanistan, it was the flyers who changed Stechkin to Ksenia, based on experience and their own initiative. tk.with.

[-Dmitry-]

It's about the present tense.

Well, so ours came to abandon Ksenia and switch to PPK-20 in the present tense.

In Afghanistan, it was the flyers who changed Stechkin to Ksenia, based on experience and their own initiative. tk.with.

Remind me, how many PPs were there in the USSR in the 80s? Not even in service in the army, but in general? :) They switched to Ksenia because there was nothing to choose from. There would be no Ksenia, they would fly from the AKS-74.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Well, so ours came to abandon Ksenia and switch to PPK-20 in the present tense.

Combat experience and armchair decision are completely different things.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Remind me, how many PPs were there in the USSR in the 80s? Not even in service with the army, but in general?

None, but how many PPs are there in the modern USA? That's right, a little more than a dofig, you know what I mean?

Quote: -Dmitry-

They switched to Ksenia because there was nothing to choose from. If there were no Ksenia, they would fly from the AKS-74.

That's just the sea in the US and NATO of different PP, but why 5,56 was chosen in 18 for pilots? I am smarter than bureaucrats in uniform from our MO, or more stupid, no difference, but American bureaucrats in uniforms of ours are definitely not more stupid, while equipping their flyers ALWAYS treated at least with trepidation.

[-Dmitry-]

Combat experience and armchair decision are completely different things.

Why are you so sure that this is an armchair decision? Did you hold the candle? Our Aerospace Forces have enough combat experience.

None, but how many PPs are there in the modern USA? That's right, a little more than a dofig, you know what I mean?

What does the PP in the modern USA have to do with it when it came to Soviet flyers in Afghanistan?

That's just the sea in the US and NATO of different PP, but why 5,56 was chosen in 18 for pilots?

You ask them :) In general, in the situation in which Roman Filippov found himself, neither Ksenia nor the American 5.56 barrel would have helped. Actually, that's why I think we made the decision to switch to PP - the wearable BC will be larger.

I am smarter bureaucrats in uniform from our Ministry of Defense, or more stupid, no difference, but American bureaucrats in uniforms of ours are definitely not more stupid, while equipping their flyers ALWAYS treated at least awe.

ALWAYS? This is considering that in the packing of their NAZ before the age of 18, there were only pistols and knives? :)

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Why are you so sure that this is an armchair decision? Did you hold the candle? Our Aerospace Forces have enough combat experience.

The same counter question, did you hold the candle?
Combat experience:

In this case, in order to hold out until the arrival of the search group, they took an assault rifle on the flight (the most prudent pilots fastened it with belts to their thighs or hung it under their arms so as not to lose it when jumping with a parachute)

Quote: -Dmitry-

What does the PP in the modern USA have to do with it when it came to Soviet flyers in Afghanistan?

Do not be fooled, the logic is obvious, but nevertheless I will explain in the USSR there was no PP, therefore there are automatic machines, but in the USA there is an abundance of PP, but for some reason, again, machines.

Quote: -Dmitry-

That's just the sea in the US and NATO of different PP, but why 5,56 was chosen in 18 for pilots?
You ask them :)

An inconvenient question, isn't it?

Quote: -Dmitry-

In general, in the situation in which Roman Filippov found himself, neither Ksenia nor the American 5.56 barrel would have helped. Actually, that's why I think we made the decision to switch to PP - the wearable BC will be larger.

In addition to Roman, his memory is blessed, there was another pilot, who was helped by an assault rifle:

For more than an hour's battle, Sokolov managed to kill several Mujahideen, but he himself received several wounds in the legs.
... ... Weakening from the loss of blood, Sergei fired the last round from the machine gun and, pulling out the pin, prepared to blow himself up with a grenade along with the "spirits" approaching him. ... ... The helicopter pilots, at their own peril and risk, made their way through the clouds and fire of the Mujahideen and were able to evacuate the pilot. In the process of loading Sokolov on board, the soldiers noticed a grenade clutched in his hand with a cocked check.
What would have happened to Sergei Aleksandrovich Sokolov, if he had only APS, I think it is clear.

But your logic is strange, the machines WOULD not help, but the PP WOULD help, but in fact there was an APS with a pistol cartridge, slightly weaker than 9 * 19.
By the way, regarding the intelligence of the officials from the Ministry of Defense, there is a fact of complete disregard for both the Afghan experience and the Chechen one.

Quote: -Dmitry-

ALWAYS? This is considering that in the packing of their NAZ before the age of 18, there were only pistols and knives? :)

Always, only they were puzzled with machine guns when it became clear that the PSS does not always have time, and they may not be taken prisoner, but stupidly cut off their heads, or burn them alive.

[-Dmitry-]

The same counter question, did you hold the candle?

Therefore, I assumed, and not categorically asserted, as you do.

Combat experience:

But nevertheless, they change Ksenia to PP. Probably it means something.

Do not be fooled, the logic is obvious, but nevertheless I will explain in the USSR there was no PP, therefore there are automatic machines, but in the USA there is an abundance of PP, but for some reason, again, machines.

Well, in general, I'm not playing the fool here, but you - about the Afghan of the 80s, you answer about the States of the 2020s.
Let me remind you once again that in Somalia, in 1993, the Black Hawk pilots had PPs - the same Durant fired back MP-5s.

An inconvenient question, isn't it?

Why suddenly? Do you think you should blindly copy the Americans? Our Air Force / Aerospace Forces have their own combat experience, based on it, apparently, they made a decision about weapons in the NAZ packing.

In addition to Roman, his memory is blessed, there was another pilot, who was helped by an assault rifle:

The situations may have been different. Terrain, number of attackers, pilot's position. Again, the question is - from what distance did Ksenia Sokolov apply?

But your logic is strange, the machines WOULD not help, but the PP WOULD help, but in fact there was an APS with a pistol cartridge, slightly weaker than 9 * 19.

PP BK would have been larger. Often it is the number of cartridges that decides, not the power of the cartridge. Of course, there will be less to APS.

By the way, regarding the intelligence of the officials from the Ministry of Defense, there is a fact of complete disregard for both the Afghan experience and the Chechen one.

Excuse me, but I repeat - did you hold the candle?

Always, only they were puzzled with machine guns when it became clear that the PSS does not always have time, and they may not be taken prisoner, but stupidly cut off their heads, or burn them alive.

Well, that is, it turns out that all the same is not always, right? :) For back in 93, Durant was taken prisoner, and they were divorced only 25 years later. Just don't say that Durant was taken prisoner, just because he had a PP - in his situation, no gun would have helped. Is that a machine gun can only with a large ammo.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

But nevertheless, they change Ksenia to PP. Probably it means something.

It means a mistake.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Well, in general, I'm not playing the fool here, but you - about the Afghan of the 80s, you answer about the States of the 2020s.

That's how, your mention of the Airborne Forces of the 80s and Somalia of the 90s in relation to modernity is the norm, and the comparison of the incomparable capabilities of the USSR in the 80s and the current United States with comparable results is a jerk, well, well.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Let me remind you once again that in Somalia, in 1993, the Black Hawk pilots had PPs - the same Durant fired back MP-5 ... For back in 93 Durant was captured, and they divorced only 25 years later.

Do not specify, you cite an example of the unsuccessful use of PPs as an example of the need for PPs or as evidence of the presence of only pistol-knives in NAZ am. pilots, I don’t understand.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Why suddenly? Do you think you should blindly copy the Americans? Our Air Force / Aerospace Forces have their own combat experience, based on it, apparently, they made a decision about weapons in the NAZ packing.

To blindly copy is to enter a collapsible AR-ku into NAZ. Filippov's example just brilliantly shows how combat experience is "taken into account" in the MO (sad irony).

Quote: -Dmitry-

The situations may have been different. Terrain, number of attackers, pilot's position. Again, the question is - from what distance did Ksenia Sokolov apply?

It is not specified which machine gun Sokolov had, however, the scientific fact is that even the AKS allows effective fire farther than any 9 * 19 submachine gun. And the words: "Sokolov managed to kill several Mujahideen, but he himself received several wounds in the legs."as if they say that the spirits were far from one and a half crippled.

Quote: -Dmitry-

PP BK would have been larger. Often it is the number of cartridges that decides, not the power of the cartridge. Of course, there will be less to APS.

"It would be" funny. With a weight of 9 * 19 from 8 to 12 g and a weight of 5,45 * 39 in 10-11 g, this "would be" simply ridiculous in comparison with the difference in range and penetration.

Quote: -Dmitry-

By the way, regarding the intelligence of the officials from the Ministry of Defense, there is a fact of complete disregard for both the Afghan experience and the Chechen one.
Excuse me, but I repeat - did you hold the candle?

And I will repeat:
Filippov's example just brilliantly shows how combat experience is "taken into account" in the MO (sad irony).

Quote: -Dmitry-

For back in 93, Durant was captured, and they only divorced 25 years later. Just don't say that Durant was taken prisoner, just because he had a PP - in his situation, no gun would have helped. Is that a machine gun can only with a large ammo.

It’s silly to bring a multi-hour battle of dozens of warriors with the support of helicopters against hundreds of black spirits as an example of the superiority of the PP over the submachine gun in the NAZ. And what about Durant, did they cut off his head or burn him?
"and they may be taken prisoner not take, but stupidly cut off the head, or burn alive."

[-Dmitry-]

It means a mistake.

:) Well, of course, in the Moscow region all fools, you alone are in white, you stand smart ...

That's how, your mention of the Airborne Forces of the 80s and Somalia of the 90s in relation to modernity is the norm, and the comparison of the incomparable capabilities of the USSR in the 80s and the current United States with comparable results is a jerk, well, well.

About the Airborne Forces, by the way, but about Afghan and Ksenia you started, I answered you, and for some reason you dragged the modern States with their choice in favor of 5.56.
I cited Somalia as an example of the fact that US pilots still used PPs in response to your maxims that the American NAZ had no PPs.

To blindly copy is to enter a collapsible AR-ku into NAZ. Filippov's example just brilliantly shows how combat experience is "taken into account" in the MO (sad irony).

The question is, do you directly know all the cases of the use of weapons by downed pilots and their effectiveness? Have you systematized this experience? Do you know what weapons were used, when and under what circumstances? The effectiveness of the use of a particular weapon? If not, how can you even judge whether combat experience is taken into account or not? As a sofa bed, of course you can. But, as a sober-minded person, no.

"It would be" funny. With a weight of 9 * 19 from 8 to 12 g and a weight of 5,45 * 39 in 10-11 g, this "would be" simply ridiculous in comparison with the difference in range and penetration.

Ok, according to BC, the weight is approximately equal. Only here the difference in range is small. Given that there is no sense in the range, if the bullets fall past the target, Ksenia's recoil is significantly higher than that of the PPK-20, and this directly affects the accuracy of shooting.

And I will repeat:
Filippov's example just brilliantly shows how combat experience is "taken into account" in the MO (sad irony).

see above.

It’s silly to bring a multi-hour battle of dozens of warriors with the support of helicopters against hundreds of black spirits as an example of the superiority of the PP over the submachine gun in the NAZ. And what about Durant, did they cut off his head or burn him?
"and they may not be taken prisoner, but stupidly cut off their heads, or burn them alive."

You obviously do not read WHAT and in WHAT context I am writing. The example about Durant was in response to your maxims that the Americans are supposedly ALWAYS taking care of their pilots, and because, as they say, they understood that with pistols their pilots could be taken prisoner, they armed them with assault shorties. I gave an example that between 1993 and 2018 there was a gap of 25 years.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Well, of course, in the MO, all are fools, you alone are in white, you stand smart ...

Well, what are you, I'm the same stupid sofa Iksperd like you ... though, unlike you, I even held a ksyuha in my hands, not interested in the opinion of "familiar Russian guards".

Quote: -Dmitry-

About the Airborne Forces, by the way, but about Afghan and Ksenia you started, I answered you, and for some reason you dragged the modern States with their choice in favor of 5.56.

Of course, by the way, what are we talking about! Like this:

Quote: -Dmitry-

Effective firing ranges for them are approximately the same, because due to the short barrel at Ksenia, there is no point in shooting further 200m. Worldwide PDW weapons are mainly PP.

And I do it like that, without looking at your words, I drag in both the AKS and the American machine gun.

Quote: -Dmitry-

I cited Somalia as an example of the fact that state pilots still used PP, in response to your maxims that the American NAZ did not have and there is no PP.

You already can't master your own comments:

Quote: -Dmitry-

ALWAYS? This is given that in the packing of their NAZ up to 18 years old, there were only pistols and knives? :)

Hey, where is the PP, submachine guns?

Quote: -Dmitry-

The question is, do you directly know all the cases of the use of weapons by downed pilots and their effectiveness? Have you systematized this experience? Do you know what weapons were used, when and under what circumstances? The effectiveness of the use of a particular weapon? If not, how can you even judge whether combat experience is taken into account or not? As a sofa bed, of course you can. But, as a sober-minded person, no.

Well, you undoubtedly did all this, a leading specialist of the Ministry of Defense, who is not aware of the weight of cartridges and considers a pistol cartridge to be more effective than an automatic one at a distance of 200 m.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Ok, according to BC, the weight is approximately equal. Only here the difference in range is small. Given that there is no sense in the range, if the bullets fall past the target, Ksenia's recoil is significantly higher than that of the PPK-20, and this directly affects the accuracy of shooting.

Oh, undoubtedly, how can one doubt the opinion of a person who shot thousands of cartridges, either from what this weapon. It's just a pity that the concept of a low-impulse cartridge has passed you by.

Quote: -Dmitry-

You obviously do not read WHAT and in WHAT context I am writing.

I am not obliged to understand your porridge.

Quote: -Dmitry-

I gave an example that between 1993 and 2018 there was a gap of 25 years.

And I gave an example of the "wisdom" of officials from the Ministry of Defense in the words

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Filippov's example just brilliantly shows how combat experience is "taken into account" in the MO (sad irony).

To clarify, 30 (thirty) years after Afgan, Filippov had an APS with three stores at his fingertips.

[-Dmitry-]

Well, what are you, I'm the same stupid sofa Iksperd like you ... though, unlike you, I even held a ksyuha in my hands, not interested in the opinion of "familiar Russian guards". laughing

Sarcasm is not in the cash register - I am nowhere, unlike you, did not give out my opinion as the only correct one. Hold and apply 2 different things :) Unlike you, the Russian Guard used both Vityaz and Ksenia. I agree, the tasks are certainly somewhat different, but they can say for sure about the firing range and accuracy of these devices.

And I do it like that, without looking at your words, I drag in both the AKS and the American machine gun.

It happened more than once.

You already can't master your own comments:
Hey, where is the PP, submachine guns?

A typical trick of a demagogue is to take a quote out of context and begin to chew it, chew it right away. You have repeatedly sarcastically said that American pilots do not use "compact and heap" aircraft. They say they switched to 5.56. I gave you an example about Somalia, in response you started sarcastic about the quality of your opponents. Now you are again trying to get there .. to get to the bottom of the quote pulled out of the general context of the dispute.

Well, you undoubtedly did all this, the leading specialist of the Ministry of Defense, who is not aware of the weight of cartridges and considers a pistol cartridge to be more effective than an automatic one at a distance of 200 m. Laughing

Do you call this a constructive argument? :) Again you suffer from demagoguery. You here categorically call the transition to PP a mistake - not me.
Where have you seen what I believe that a pistol cartridge is more effective than a submachine gun[b] [/ b] ??? Link to the studio.
I said that the fire from the PPK-20 at distances of 100, 200 m. Will be much more accurate than the fire from Ksenia, at the same distances. These are 2 big differences, if you do not understand this or make equality between them - your problem. And if you are already just doing demagoguery, then this is a sign of a drain.

Oh, undoubtedly, how can one doubt the opinion of a person who shot thousands of cartridges, either from what this weapon. It's just a pity that the concept of a low-impulse cartridge has passed you by.

Again demagoguery and sarcasm. Proves once again that in a constructive argument you cannot.
It is low-impulse only in comparison with another cartridge, namely 7.62x39. The recoil momentum of the pistol cartridge will still be lower.

And I gave an example of the "wisdom" of officials from the Ministry of Defense in the words
To clarify, 30 (thirty) years after Afgan, Filippov had an APS with three stores at his fingertips.

I wonder why not so much praised Ksenia, but APS?
And when the MO decided to remedy this situation, you again do not like it.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Sarcasm is not in the cash register - I am nowhere, unlike you, did not give out my opinion as the only correct one.

But the decision of the unmentioned officials from the Ministry of Defense was still betrayed, furiously "sarcasting" at the same time.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Hold and apply 2 different things :)

Oh, how, without having the slightest idea even about the weight and grasp of the weapon, not to mention the recoil, you call me Xsperd, a sofa.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Unlike you, the Russian Guard used both Vityaz and Ksenia.

I do not see any estimates of the accuracy and range of fire from the Russian Guard, except for your very general words.

Quote: -Dmitry-

It happened more than once.

Strictly in response to your words.

Quote: -Dmitry-

A typical trick of a demagogue is to take a quote out of context and begin to chew it, chew it right away.

You use it brilliantly. And now try to assign ANOTHER context to this phrase of yours:
Quote: -Dmitry-
ALWAYS? This is considering that in the packing of their NAZ before the age of 18, there were only pistols and knives? :)

Quote: -Dmitry-

I gave you an example about Somalia, in response you began to sarcasm about the quality of opponents... Now you are again trying to get there .. to get to the bottom of the quote pulled out of the general context of the dispute.

Your lies are highlighted in bold. And about the pulled out context, this is not for me, I did not write nonsense about Somalia, I analyzed it.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Do you call this a constructive argument? :) Again you suffer from demagoguery. You here categorically call the transition to PP a mistake - not me.

How nice it is, you demand some analysis, without providing anything from your side except general words, and when they poked you into it, I was accused of demagoguery.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Where have you seen that I believe that a pistol cartridge is more effective than a submachine gun[/ b] ??? Link to the studio.
I said that the fire from the PPK-20 at distances of 100, 200 m will be much more accurate than the fire from Ksenia, at the same distances.

Considering that the PP 9 * 19 will be more accurate than the AKS74u at a distance of 200 m is the same as considering a pistol cartridge more effective than an automatic one at a distance of 200 m. The accuracy of the PP 9 * 19 at a distance of 200 m. lead, do not hesitate.
200 m 20 cm 20 cm 539 J.
300 m 30 cm 30 cm 402 J. for AKS-74u

Quote: -Dmitry-

Again demagoguery and sarcasm. Proves once again that in a constructive argument you cannot.

Sarcasm? Yes! Demagogy? Not! Or did you shoot thousands of rounds?

Quote: -Dmitry-

It is low-impulse only in comparison with another cartridge, namely 7.62x39. The recoil momentum of the pistol cartridge will still be lower.

What's the point of the impulse, if already at 100 meters the accuracy ends in ballistics? You stubbornly ignore physics.

Quote: -Dmitry-

I wonder why not so [b] vaunted you Ksenia, and APS?

Your lies are highlighted in bold. This question is frankly stupid, if only because the answer has already been given:

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Filippov's example just brilliantly shows how combat experience is "taken into account" in the MO (sad irony).

If it is not clear to you, well, there I demagogically pulled it out of context or something else, then I will explain: APS instead of Ksenia was because the Defense Ministry didn’t give a damn about the Afghan and Chechen experience.

Quote: -Dmitry-

And when the MO decided to remedy this situation, you again do not like it.

The Ministry of Defense decided to fix it through the ass, because in addition to the already used AKSu, obviously more powerful than the PPK-20, there is also an Ak-105.

[-Dmitry-]

It is not indicated which machine gun Sokolov had, but the scientific fact is that even the AKS allows effective fire farther than any 9 * 19 submachine gun. And the words: "Sokolov managed to kill several Mujahideen, but he himself received several wounds in the legs." as if they say that the spirits were far from one and a half crippled.

There were a lot of them, according to him, about 60. But I have not found anywhere information about the distance from which Sokolov fired. Again, the position and terrain were not disclosed. So this is your passage:

however, it is a scientific fact that even the AKS allows effective fire farther than any 9 * 19 SMG.

nothing but your conjectures is not supported.

[-Dmitry-]

It’s silly to bring a multi-hour battle of dozens of warriors with the support of helicopters against hundreds of black spirits as an example of the superiority of the PP over the submachine gun in the NAZ. And what about Durant, did they cut off his head or burn him?

And by the way, with Durant there were 2 more from the Delta, perfectly trained and armed with 5.56 and 7.62x51 calibers, but this did not help them - they were overwhelmed. And Durant, armed with an SMP, survived. Which again says that for a downed pilot, an assault caliber is not a panacea.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

And by the way, with Durant there were 2 more from the Delta, perfectly trained and armed with 5.56 and 7.62x51 calibers, but this did not help them - they were overwhelmed. And Durant, armed with an SMP, survived. Which again says that for a downed pilot, an assault caliber is not a panacea.

Why is this idiocy? Maybe Durant survived because he was broken and did not take part in the battle? Continuing your logic - a shot down pilot does not need a weapon at all, it is enough to become a helpless body. (Another absurdization of an already absurd argument)

[-Dmitry-]

That's just the sea in the US and NATO of different PP, but why 5,56 was chosen in 18 for pilots? I am smarter than bureaucrats in uniform from our MO, or more stupid, no difference, but American bureaucrats in uniforms of ours are definitely not more stupid, while equipping their flyers ALWAYS treated at least with trepidation.

By the way, in 1993, in Somalia, the Black Hawk pilots had just the same PP - MP-5 (MP-5K).

[Goffman]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Afgan Stechkin, it was the flyers who changed to Ksenia, based on experience and their own initiative

And there is no statistics, how many "flyers" after being shot down in case of fire contact were able to fight off the Mujahideen with this "ksyukha"? Or maybe there would be no difference with the APS, only the APS is easier to carry?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Gofman

And there is no statistics, how many "flyers" after being shot down in case of fire contact were able to fight off the Mujahideen with this "ksyukha"?

Here, as with meteorology, not according to statistics, but according to feelings.
But seriously, then:

For more than an hour's battle, Sokolov managed to kill several Mujahideen, but he himself received several wounds in the legs.
... ... Weakening from the loss of blood, Sergei fired the last round from the machine gun and, pulling out the pin, prepared to blow himself up with a grenade along with the "spirits" approaching him. ... ... The helicopter pilots, at their own peril and risk, made their way through the clouds and fire of the Mujahideen and were able to evacuate the pilot. In the process of loading Sokolov on board, the soldiers noticed a grenade clutched in his hand with a cocked check.

What would have happened to Sergei Aleksandrovich Sokolov, if he had only APS, I think it is clear.

In return, in 1984, helicopter pilots were the first in the Air Force to receive camouflage suits, which gave an extra chance during an emergency landing. In this case, in order to hold out until the arrival of the search group, they took a machine gun on the flight (the most prudent pilots fastened it with belts to their thighs or hung it under their arms so as not to lose it when jumping with a parachute), and the standard PM pistols were exchanged for more reliable TT, automatic APS or captured 20-charge "Beretta". The NAZ set was sorted out, leaving a couple of chocolate bars and a flask of water from the whole ration, the vacant space was occupied by cartridge "horns" and four RGD-5 grenades.

The pistols were not left on the ground, no, they were simply transferred to the category of weapons of the last chance, if the machine gun was already proliferated, or the cartridges were shot.

There are a lot of complaints about the AKS-74u, but now there are much more advanced shortcuts both with accuracy and with butts - collimators, so the PP in NAZ combat pilots is obvious stupidity.

[-Dmitry-]

And there is no statistics, how many "flyers" after being shot down in case of fire contact were able to fight off the Mujahideen with this "ksyukha"? Or maybe there would be no difference with the APS, only the APS is easier to carry?

About what we are talking about. In a situation where at least a platoon is pressing on 1-2 pilots, there is no difference from what to shoot back - from Ksenia or from the PP.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

About what we are talking about. In a situation where at least a platoon is pressing on 1-2 pilots, there is no difference from what to shoot back - from Ksenia or from the PP.

Neither the range of fire, nor the penetration of the NIB and obstacles at the PP 9 * 19 can be compared with the AKS-74u.

[-Dmitry-]

Neither the range of fire, nor the penetration of the NIB and obstacles at the PP 9 * 19 can be compared with the AKS-74u.

The range of fire and the density of fire are almost always on the side of the attackers. What are these 200m. Ksenia, when the pilot can be pressed tightly with fire from 300-400m.? So, all these advantages are purely from the side of the sofa.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

The range of fire and the density of fire are almost always on the side of the attackers. What are these 200m. Ksenia, when the pilot can be pressed tightly with fire from 300-400m.?

Amazingly, PP 9 * 19, in principle, cannot conduct effective fire further than 200 m, but in NAZ this is good, this is correct, AKS74u at 500 m gives a spread of 50 cm, this is bad and it is not suitable. Logics!

Quote: Vladimir_2U

There are a lot of complaints about the AKS-74u, but now there are much more advanced shortcuts both with accuracy and with butts - collimators, so the PP in NAZ combat pilots is obvious stupidity.

[-Dmitry-]

Amazingly, PP 9 * 19, in principle, cannot conduct effective fire further than 200 m, but in NAZ this is good, this is correct, AKS74u at 500 m gives a spread of 50 cm, this is bad and it is not suitable. Logics!

Can Ksenia conduct effective fire beyond 200m? Theoretically yes, practically no. It is impossible to call effective fire, in which the bullets do not hit the target. In the Second World War, the Germans were still quite effective at firing at distances up to 200m. from his MP-38/40, for some reason 9x19 did not interfere with them.

There are a lot of complaints about the AKS-74u, but now there are much more advanced shortcuts both with accuracy and with butts - collimators, so the PP in NAZ combat pilots is obvious stupidity.

Which ones? Apart from the AK-105, nothing goes into my head.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

In the Second World War, the Germans were still quite effective at firing at distances up to 200m. from his MP-38/40, for some reason 9x19 did not interfere with them.

This is worse than the fact that Hartmann shot down 300 Soviet planes! True, the first is stupidity, and the second is just a lie. I am sarcastic, because a constructive argument with a person of your knowledge is meaningless.

[ssergey1978]

You joked? Is a pistol cartridge more accurate than a rifle cartridge?

[-Dmitry-]

You joked? Is a pistol cartridge more accurate than a rifle cartridge?

I said that shooting from the PPK-20 with a pistol cartridge, even in bursts, would be much more accurate than from the "cut off" Ksenia - the short barrel length, coupled with a cartridge powerful enough for such a short barrel, does not lead to accurate shooting. Yes, you ask any soldier of the Russian Guard - which is better, Ksenia or Vityaz?

[ssergey1978]

Why should I ask, I myself fired from all types of AK and a number of PPs. And moreover, here the guard grew up a weapon for the flyers. The ballistics of the 9 mm and 5.45 bullets are not compatible. And the 5.45x39 bullet flies more accurately and further. Also, the barrel allows you to shoot 150 rounds at a fast pace without deteriorating shooting. With single fire, it is possible to conduct concentrated fire up to 400 meters, which is unattainable for 9x19. When protecting against livestock, 5.45 is preferable. The effect on the carcass of the enemy 5.45 is also higher. The PP has no advantages over Ksenia in the army. Only for the PBS, but for the flyer it doesn't matter, he shoots when he has already been spotted

[-Dmitry-]

And where did the guard grow up

Because they used both.

The ballistics of the 9 mm and 5.45 bullets are not compatible. And the 5.45x39 bullet flies more accurately and further.

Not from Ksenia. If, as you say, they fired from Ksenia, then you should know that Ksenia's pile is not important when firing bursts, much worse than a pile of PPs.

Also, the barrel allows you to shoot 150 rounds at a fast pace without deteriorating shooting.

And what is there to worsen? :)

With single fire, it is possible to conduct concentrated fire up to 400 meters, which is unattainable for 9x19.

Why would a downed pilot fire at 400m ??? There are just 100, maximum 200 meters. The battle is underway.

The PP has no advantages over Ksenia in the army.

In the army, it may not, but there are pilots for self-defense weapons.

[ssergey1978]

Accuracy from Ksenia is at least not worse than PP. Who told you what is worse. The downed pilot will not do too much, the ability to keep the enemy as far away from himself as possible is good. You have a biased attitude towards the AKS74U, believe me, this is a good machine gun, it is head and shoulders above all the PP.

[Goffman]

Quote: ssergey1978

To a downed pilot, too much will not hurt, the ability to keep the enemy as far away from himself as possible is good.

Here is a rush at the downed pilot, a tribe of Turkomans, and with the help of AKS74U he "keeps them as far away from himself as possible" ... no, the option is not danced: what is AKS74U, what is not - the difference is short ... Weapons for a downed pilot are when They hit you, crawled into some thickets, and there, while waiting for rescuers - a shepherdess or some woman who went to fetch water and bumped into you, bang silently so that she would not run to the village for help.

[English tarantas]

and there, while you are waiting for the rescuers - a shepherdess or some kind of woman who went to fetch water and bumped into you, bang silently so that she would not run to the village for help.

Yes, the pilot, like a commando in bad films, will extinguish everyone by stealth. Nobody will miss a woman who has gone to fetch water, and after all, they go to fetch water as far as possible from the settlement, which is neither visible nor audible, and the pilot will not guess that there is a village nearby and you need to go further, and the shepherd also appears out of nowhere, along with the herd ... His task is not to contact at all, fell, folded the parachute better and hid things, if there is time, and if not, then he simply grabbed what was in the back and legs in his hands, no contacts at all.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

It is very honest and objective to invent circumstances when there will be no sense not only from the AKS74U, but also from the MCO with the T-14 overweight. True, and from a dull PP will not be of any use. But we do not consider him in such a situation, we immediately invent a situation with an unfortunate evil shepherdess who we heroically destroy from the bushes from the PP using the PBS. Epic Vin!

[-Dmitry-]

Accuracy from Ksenia is at least not worse than PP. Who told you what is worse.

Accuracy cannot be no worse than PP, simply due to the fact that with almost the same design, the PPK-20 cartridge has a much lower recoil momentum, and Ksenia, with a short barrel and a sufficiently powerful cartridge, the barrel will bulge much more than the same PPK-20. So physically Ksenia cannot be a lot better than PPK-20.

To a downed pilot, too much will not hurt, the ability to keep the enemy as far away from himself as possible is good.

With Ksenia, he can hold a maximum of 200 m, while he can be pressed down by fire from both 300 and 400 m.And given that the ammunition is limited, the pilot will fight at 100, maximum 200 m. -20 is more ergonomic and you can put a collimator on it normally, without any dancing with a tambourine, then in a clash it will be at least no worse than Ksenia.

[ssergey1978]

Once again, the bullet has a balancing factor. The pistol bullet is much worse. A pistol bullet cannot fly more accurately than a rifle bullet by definition and has nothing to do with the recoil momentum. If you focus on recoil, then the PP is the most accurate weapon.

[-Dmitry-]

Once again, the bullet has a balancing factor. The pistol bullet is much worse. A pistol bullet cannot fly more accurately than a rifle bullet by definition and has nothing to do with the recoil momentum. If you focus on recoil, then the PP is the most accurate weapon.

You are confusing warm with soft. No one disputes that the ballistics of the 5.45 are several times better than the pistol. It's not about that, but about the fact that at distances up to 100 m, a bunch of PPK-20 (and any other PP too) will be much better than Ksenia's. 200m. it will certainly be worse than 100, but you can shoot. And the recoil momentum greatly affects the accuracy. And there will be more bookmakers than for Ksenia, and in such situations, the number of bookmakers is important.
Whatever you say, you can shoot from the PP up to 200m. The experience of the Second World War shows this - the MP-40 (its barrel length is quite comparable to the PPK-20) could well work at 200m.

[ssergey1978]

And also the distance of 200 meters for the PP is the limiting one, but for many it is not attainable. For Ksenia, this is the working distance. In a field, in a desert 200 meters, it is very close.

[-Dmitry-]

And also the distance of 200 meters for the PP is the limiting one, but for many it is not attainable. For Ksenia, this is the working distance. In a field, in a desert 200 meters, it is very close.

MP-40 has 200m. was quite a working distance.

[English tarantas]

That's right, it's a pity you can't fix this comment at the very top. It is for these reasons that both ours and the Americans fly with Ksenia and M4, not stupid people came up with this.

[English tarantas]

Around the world, PDW weapons are mainly PP

Examples will be? The Americans have m4 exactly for the pilots, I suspect the Germans can give the pilots the shortest r36, the rest simply could not do something very compact, although the British and French give their own bulpups to the crews of armored vehicles, I saw pictures. If someone gives the same tanker pistols and PPs, then the rest of those in need of "pdw", including pilots, are given adequate weapons, because they really have to use it often, or rarely, but when necessary, the PP option is really worse than nothing.

[-Dmitry-]

Examples will be? The Americans have m4 exactly for the pilots, I suspect the Germans can give the pilots the shortest r36, the rest simply could not do something very compact, although the British and French give their own bulpups to the crews of armored vehicles, I saw pictures. If someone gives the same tanker pistols and PPs, then the rest of those in need of "pdw", including pilots, are given adequate weapons, because they really have to use it often, or rarely, but when necessary, the PP option is really worse than nothing.

In 1993, in Somalia, American pilots had MP-5s. If you have other information, please provide proof. You don't need to talk about Gau-5 - it's only from 2018, and then for the northern regions, sort of.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Dead Day

such a nafig "cut" that this "pukalka" is not a fig does not exceed the AKS74U-meaning in it for pilots?

Not a specialist. But I heard this from knowledgeable people - AK-74U - they do not praise it very much. The cartridge is powerful, the barrel is short, the accuracy is none. You can shoot from it, but to hit you have to be a pro.
So a pilot will never be a pro in shooting combat - well, this is not his specialization. And from this device (heavier, the cartridge is weaker, the recoil is less), the efficiency in not the most skillful hands will be greater.
I repeat, I'm not a specialist, about AK I convey what I heard

[Grandfather]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Quote: Dead Day

such a nafig "cut" that this "pukalka" is not a fig does not exceed the AKS74U-meaning in it for pilots?

Not a specialist. But I heard this from knowledgeable people - AK-74U - they do not praise it very much. The cartridge is powerful, the barrel is short, the accuracy is none. You can shoot from it, but to hit you have to be a pro.
So a pilot will never be a pro in shooting combat - well, this is not his specialization. And from this device (heavier, the cartridge is weaker, the recoil is less), the efficiency in not the most skillful hands will be greater.
I repeat, I'm not a specialist, about AK I convey what I heard

Andrey, you accidentally landed in the taiga ... which would you prefer, a pistol “fart”, or a Kalashmat cartridge? What are you going to make the bear angry about?

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Dead Day

Andrey, here you are in the taiga accidentally forced to land ...

The pilot is not an astronaut, our expected areas of air battles are not at all over the taiga. A 9-mm PP is quite enough for a bear. From him, in general, and from the PM, sometimes it turned out to shoot back
26 cases of using the PM pistol and 2 cases of using the APS pistol have been reliably documented.
Of the 26 cases with PM, in 19 cases, the shooting began from a distance of more than 2 meters. In these 19 cases, 10 people were not injured at all, 4 died, 5 received various injuries. Found killed 10 bears.
Of the 7 who opened fire from less than 2 meters, 3 were not injured, 2 were injured and 2 were killed. 3 bears were killed and found.
There are only two recorded cases of using the APS pistol. In one case, the bear was killed, while the person was not injured. In the second case, the fire was fired in a burst from a distance of about 5 meters and the bear was killed on the spot.

[-Dmitry-]

Andrey, you accidentally landed in the taiga ... which would you prefer, a pistol “fart”, or a Kalashmat cartridge? What are you going to make the bear angry about?

They even felled a bear from the APS, and there will definitely not be any special problems from PPK-20.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

But I heard this from knowledgeable people - AK-74U - they do not praise it very much. The cartridge is powerful, the barrel is short, the accuracy is none.

But all this is compared to the full-size AK-74.

[-Dmitry-]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

But all this is compared to the full-size AK-74.

Yes, even with Vityaz, if you compare, it will be the same. The heaps at Vityaz (aka PPK-20) will be better.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Yes, even with Vityaz, if you compare, it will be the same. The heaps at Vityaz (aka PPK-20) will be better.

What about PDW? What about the lay user of the weapon? Fuck him on the accuracy, power and capacity of the store decide. And the complaint against Ksenia is not because of the "accuracy" but because of the excess capacity for law enforcement and a tendency to ricochets, for them.

[-Dmitry-]

What about PDW? What about the lay user of the weapon? Fuck him on the accuracy, power and capacity of the store decide.

I explain - with the same shooting training, a bunch of Vityaz / PPK-20 will be better than Ksenia. This is 100%. Here and the cartridge is less powerful and throws less. The store capacity is exactly the same. Despite the fact that with the same ammunition weight, you can take more cartridges for the PPK-20. The buttstock on the PPK-20 allows you to change the length, which is also not unimportant if you are wearing a bulletproof vest or just thick clothes. As for the power - which is better is better: three 9 mm. bullets flying into the body, or one 5.45 from the queue? The answer is obvious - fuck the power of a bullet if it, a bullet, just doesn't hit?

And the complaint against Ksenia is not because of the "accuracy" but because of the excess capacity for law enforcement and the tendency to ricochets, for them.

This is one of the claims of law enforcement officers. Once they wanted to accept Ksenia as a standard weapon of the landing, but they realized in time that she was not suitable for these purposes. I think they are not fools either, or do you consider yourself smarter than everyone else? :)

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

I explain - with the same shooting training, a bunch of Vityaz / PPK-20 will be better than Ksenia. This is 100%.

Of course, but at what distance? Let me not believe about 200 m.

Quote: -Dmitry-

The buttstock on the PPK-20 allows you to change the length, which is also not unimportant if you are wearing a bulletproof vest or just thick clothes.

Is the butt a device that can never be changed? And yet, bulletproof vest and clothing, at 200 m, this is already an obstacle even for BB 9 * 19, but for BB 5,45 * 39 it is quite tough.

Quote: -Dmitry-

As for the power - which is better is better: three 9 mm. bullets flying into the body, or one 5.45 from the queue?

Do not tell tales about three bullets in the body, not with the rate of fire and flatness of the PP, do not.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Once they wanted to accept Ksenia as a standard weapon of the landing, but they realized in time that she was not suitable for these purposes. I think, in MO, too, they are not fools, or do you consider yourself smarter than everyone else? :)

And what was adopted by the Airborne Forces, if not a secret, some super-sophisticated PP? Or are the AK-74s not so stupid after all? And what about smarter is stupider, this is a so-so argument and smart people try not to use it.

There are a lot of complaints about the AKS-74u, but now there are much more advanced shortcuts both with accuracy and with butts - collimators, so the PP in NAZ combat pilots is obvious stupidity.

[-Dmitry-]

Of course, but at what distance? Let me not believe about 200 m.

100 is easy. And at 200 and from Ksenia there will be no heap.

Is the butt a device that can never be changed?

To change the butt, you need to remake Ksenia's design - no one will do this. Or do you offer pilots to do this at their own expense?

And yet, body armor and clothing, at 200 meters, this is already an obstacle even for BB 9 * 19, but for BB 5,45 * 39 it is quite tough.

It depends on what kind of bulletproof vest and what kind of BB bullet. 7N31 penetrates class 3 army body armor, which hold 5.45 7N6 and 7.62 PS.

And what was adopted by the Airborne Forces, if not a secret, some super-sophisticated PP? Or are the AK-74s not so stupid after all?

And what should the PDW's weapons be used by the Airborne Forces? Here we are talking about self-defense weapons. What does the AK-74 have to do with it, etc.?

And about smarter - stupider, this is a so-so argument and smart people try not to use it.

Smart people also don't take their questions to the point of absurdity.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

100 is easy. And at 200 and from Ksenia there will be no heap.

At 100 meters, how many times will it be worse in principle or by percentage? But at 200, let me not believe it, purely due to ballistics, AKS will be more accurate and better in accuracy.

Quote: -Dmitry-

To change the butt, you need to remake Ksenia's design - no one will do this. Or do you offer pilots to do this at their own expense?

There are a lot of complaints about the AKS-74u, but now there are much more advanced shortcuts both with accuracy and with butts - collimators, so the PP in NAZ combat pilots is obvious stupidity.

Quote: -Dmitry-

It depends on what kind of bulletproof vest and what kind of BB bullet. 7N31 penetrates class 3 army body armor, which hold 5.45 7N6 and 7.62 PS

200 meters ?! Haha! And this is not counting the BB 7N10, 7N22 for 5,45.

Quote: -Dmitry-

And what should the PDW's weapons be used by the Airborne Forces? Here we are talking about self-defense weapons. What does the AK-74 have to do with it, etc.?

Well, it was you who dragged the Airborne Forces, not me.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Smart people also don't take their questions to the point of absurdity.

An opponent's argument, driven to the point of absurdity, is a normal technique in an argument. And the acceptance-rejection of the machine gun into service with the Airborne Forces was just your argument.

[-Dmitry-]

At 100 meters, how many times will it be worse in principle or by percentage?

It will be fundamentally worse. Purely due to recoil - for Ksenia it is not very well controlled with automatic fire.

But at 200, let me not believe it, purely due to ballistics, AKS will be more accurate and better in accuracy.

You are confusing warm with soft. Ksenia's ballistics are not very good. Yes, the flatness of the bullet itself is much better than that of the pistol, but flatness of the flight will not play any role if the accuracy is poor. What is the use of a constant aiming point if the bullets deviate from the aiming point?

There are a lot of complaints about the AKS-74u, but now there are much more advanced shortcuts both with accuracy and with butts - collimators, so the PP in NAZ combat pilots is obvious stupidity.

Which ones? MA-17? He was not accepted for service. AC / Whirlwind and others? This is a special weapon that uses not cheap special ammunition, which, again, have not very good ballistics, well, when compared with 5.45. Again, weight - with the same weight, BC will be significantly less. I don’t know a single shortcut that has been put into service, except for the AK-105. But apparently he also does not meet the requirements of the military, since he did not pass. There is no need to fill in here about the Kalashnikov lobby - that 105, that PPK-20 are all Kalashnikov products :) There would be some kind of lobby, then 105 would be pushed through. There is really no point in pushing PPK-20 - it will be ordered anyway - the same Rosgvardia, and the volumes will be no less, and maybe more, than weapons for packing NAZs.

200 meters ?! Haha! And this is not counting the BB 7N10, 7N22 for 5,45.

100 is easy. And long distances for downed pilots are not particularly needed. For to press the downed pilot with fire, they can also at much greater distances than the same Ksenia can afford. Therefore, for them, the actual distance for combat is 100, maximum 200 m. Given the limited ammunition, no one will shoot from long distances.
As for BB bullets, naturally 5.45 will be better, but this is actually a dispute about nothing.

An opponent's argument, driven to the point of absurdity, is a normal technique in an argument.

This is called demagoguery, not constructive argument.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

An opponent's argument, driven to the point of absurdity, is a normal technique in an argument.

Quote: -Dmitry-

This is called demagoguery, not constructive argument.

Demagoguery is ignoring logic, and bringing it to the point of absurdity is one of the techniques of logic.

Driving to the point of absurdity (Latin reductio ad absurdum), or apagogy (“information”, Old Greek there is a contradiction in the consequences that follow from it.

A special case of bringing to the point of absurdity is proof by contradiction

The method of reduction to absurdity is used in mathematical logic in the form of inference

It is necessary to distinguish between a logical unemotional simplification of a statement and a propaganda technique, when a sophist refutes an opinion artificially amplified to the point of absurdity

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Quote: -Dmitry-
Once they wanted to accept Ksenia as a standard weapon of the landing, but they realized in time that she was not suitable for these purposes. I think, in MO, too, they are not fools, or do you consider yourself smarter than everyone else? :)
And what was adopted by the Airborne Forces, if not a secret, some super-sophisticated PP? Or are the AK-74s not so stupid after all?

Your argument with the Airborne Forces is weak and illogical and I have been brought to the point of absurdity in order to show its weakness and illogical, and demagogic, to the heap.

[-Dmitry-]

and bringing to the point of absurdity is one of the methods of logic.

Any argument can be brought to the point of absurdity - be it logical at least 100 times. You bring it to the point of absurdity just by applying demagoguery. For you pay attention only to things that are irrelevant to the essence of the dispute. For example, you pointed out several times about the more suitable "shortening" 5.45 mm. caliber, but did not bring a single one. Although, I asked you directly 2 times, what "shortcuts" in your opinion can replace Ksenia.

Your argument with the Airborne Forces is weak and illogical

In your understanding, it is illogical, but that does not mean that he was so.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Although, I asked you directly 2 times, what "shortcuts" in your opinion can replace Ksenia.

(AK105) 824/586 mm folded
против
PPK-20 (with folded stock 640), 700 mm

Quote: -Dmitry-

Your argument with the Airborne Forces is weak and illogical
In your understanding, it is illogical, but that does not mean that he was so.

Very, very weak demagoguery.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

So a pilot will never be a pro in shooting combat.

So there is also a silent firing device - if you have to shoot, it is more likely that it will "light up".

[aglet]

"So there is also a silent firing device - it is more likely that if you have to shoot, it will" light up "."
if it came to shooting, it means, anyway, lit up

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

This is not the point, the PBS needs a weakened cartridge. Then why AKS-74u, if you still need a special cartridge?

[kytx]

maybe the point is that they have the same cartridge?
or I'm wrong?

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Actually, cartridges of 9x19 caliber have been produced here for a long time. The same PYa (Viking) 9x19 was put into service. What nafig saw cut?

We have a lot of cartridges for civilian weapons, including the 308th and 223rd. Perhaps, then, weapons for these cartridges should be accepted for the army? For good army logistics, the smaller the calibers, the better. For pistols and PP 9 * 18, for machine guns and handbrakes 5,45 * 39, for rifles and machine guns of normal caliber 7,62 * 54, for KKP 12,7 and 14,5. Why produce calibers that complicate the mess in the army that has been observed at all times? Moreover, the PP as a class of army weapons became obsolete immediately after the Second World War after the appearance of weapons for intermediate cartridges. AKS-74U as a replacement for PP is quite suitable due to its compactness and low weight. Fortunately, the cartridge is the same with the submachine gun.

[-Dmitry-]

We have a lot of cartridges for civilian weapons, including the 308th and 223rd.

PYa is an army pistol adopted for supplying the army. The same GSh-18 also has a 9x19 caliber.
I do not think that for civilian circulation they produce cartridges 7N31, for example :)))

... AKS-74U as a replacement for PP is quite suitable due to its compactness and low weight. Fortunately, the cartridge is the same with the submachine gun.

All modern local military conflicts have shown the futility of Ksenia as a self-defense weapon (PDW).

Moreover, the PP as a class of army weapons became obsolete immediately after the Second World War after the appearance of weapons for intermediate cartridges.

Googling what PDW is - you will be surprised that almost all samples are PP for standard 9x19, except perhaps for the P-90 and MP-7.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: -Dmitry-

PYa is an army pistol adopted for supplying the army. The same GSh-18 also has a 9x19 caliber.

I consider this a sabotage, done exclusively to cut the budget. The good old PM for the army is enough for the eyes.

Quote: -Dmitry-

All modern local military conflicts have shown the futility of Ksenia as a self-defense weapon (PDW).

Can you give examples? Just do not retell the stories about the low accuracy of the shortening here. I shot from it, at 200 meters it is quite possible to hit 4 cartridges out of 5 into the chest target, while I myself am still the "sniper".

Quote: -Dmitry-

Googling what PDW is - you will be surprised that almost all samples are PP for standard 9x19, except perhaps for the P-90 and MP-7.

Because the standard weapon of the NATO infantryman is the M4 carbine, which is also a shortened version of the M16 rifle. And it is impossible to make a folding stock on the M4, since the M4 return spring goes deep into the stock. Therefore, NATO generals had no choice but to accept the PP as a PDW.

[-Dmitry-]

I consider this a sabotage, done exclusively to cut the budget. The good old PM for the army is enough for the eyes.

8 rounds of low-power cartridge? For eyes? For the army? While potential opponents in army pistols have less than 15 cartridges in stores. And even with a much more powerful cartridge. In the tsarist army, they also did not want to switch to the 3rd line at one time - they considered it sabotage.

Can you give examples? Just do not retell the stories about the low accuracy of the shortening here. I shot from it, at 200 meters it is quite possible to hit 4 cartridges out of 5 into the chest target, while I myself am still the "sniper".

Ask those who used Ksenia in combat conditions. Shooting singles in a shooting range is one thing, but during hostilities it is quite another.

Because the standard weapon of the NATO infantryman is the M4 carbine, which is also a shortened version of the M16 rifle. And it is impossible to make a folding stock on the M4, since the M4 return spring goes deep into the stock. Therefore, NATO generals had no choice but to accept the PP as a PDW.

They have long had shortened versions of the M16 / M4, but the army is in no hurry to accept them for supply. For accuracy suffers greatly.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: -Dmitry-

8 rounds of low-power cartridge? For eyes? For the army? While potential opponents in army pistols have less than 15 cartridges in stores. And even with a much more powerful cartridge. In the tsarist army, they also did not want to switch to the 3rd line at one time - they considered it sabotage.

The sofa theorist is immediately visible, ready to go into battle with a pistol bald ... Let me tell you a big secret: no one in the army goes into battle with a pistol, the army has a machine gun for this.

Quote: -Dmitry-

Ask those who used Ksenia in combat conditions. Shooting singles in a shooting range is one thing, but during hostilities it is quite another.

It seems that in combat conditions a low-speed blunt-headed bullet is much more effective than a high-speed pointed bullet. But the peasants did not know!

Quote: -Dmitry-

They have long had shortened versions of the M16 / M4, but the army is in no hurry to accept them for supply. For accuracy suffers greatly.

I repeat once again: they do not fold the butt, so there is little sense in shortening the barrel to reduce the total length of the weapon. So they do not take it into service.

[-Dmitry-]

The couch theoretician is immediately visible, ready to go into battle with a pistol naked, laughing. I'll tell you a big secret: no one in the army goes into battle with a pistol, the army has a machine gun for this.

An experienced warrior is immediately visible. How many wars did you participate in? :) I still think that only in the couch.
I will tell you a big secret - in the armies of the NATO countries, they are also not going to go into battle with pistols, however, in army pistols there, there are no less than 15 cartridges in stores. This is a requirement of the military.

It seems that in combat conditions a low-speed blunt-headed bullet is much more effective than a high-speed pointed bullet. But the peasants did not know!

Dullhead is in your so beloved PM. 9x19 bullet of a more ogival shape. And so yes, 2-3 "blunt-headed" bullets from the queue, in the body of the enemy, is much more effective than 2-3 high-speed pointed bullets in "milk".

I repeat once again: they do not fold the butt, so there is little sense in shortening the barrel to reduce the total length of the weapon. So they do not take it into service.

You obviously do not know how to read.

[garri-lin]

I agree that the fewer entities the better, but disagree with 9x18. Deprecated. 9 × 21 for replacement.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: garri-lin

disagree with 9x18. Deprecated. 9 × 21 for replacement.

What for? To shoot a deserter or an alarmist, or shoot yourself, an officer will have enough and 9 * 18. All the same, no one in the army will use a pistol in battle, everyone has a submachine gun, including the officers who are supposed to have a pistol.

[garri-lin]

There are a lot of specialties in the army that are not mixed with a PP that weighs 1,5-2 times less than a machine gun. And confidently breaks through the standard armor of the enemy at 100-200 meters. The same crews of tanks, helicopters, aircraft, gun servants, near rear. Those for whom the machine is heavy and redundant. And you'll have to shoot a couple of times a quarter. The 9x21 is great for ammunition for these weapons. Moreover, the weapon is already suitable. It remains to choose the best and give it to the troops.

[Genry]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

For good army logistics, the smaller the calibers, the better.

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Why produce calibers that complicate the mess in the army that has been observed at all times?

For .. already tortured with this logistics! Who do you want to make life easier: front-line soldiers or rear servicemen?
In the modern age of computers, the problem of logistics is only the delivery of weight to a distance. When the nomenclature is increased, the total count-count-count does not change.

And if we prove "by contradiction" then let's, for the sake of logistics, leave in the army only one sample of weapons (for example, AK12), without tanks, aircraft, electronic warfare, ...... and other garbage And the addition of one more sample (pistol) will complicate the logistics by 2 times?

[Petroff]

I sawn not in cartridges, but in purchases from the concern of new Kalashnikovs instead of old Kalashnikovs under a dubious pretext ... But under a pistol cartridge. That is, replacing the sewn with soap.
If you need a PP under 9x19, then there is a light and compact PP-2000. If you need an assault rifle, that is, Whirlwind 9x39 and other small sizes.
If you wish, you can generally reincarnate Cheetah and make PP 9x21 or even 9x30. That's why it was created. For tankers and pilots, for any caliber that the customer wants ...
But in reality they are simply promoting the next order to the concern.

[Konnick]

I can’t call it anything other than a cut of the budget!

Moreover, Lebedev's pistol, from which you can shoot only with two hands due to recoil, is shoved by everyone. I understand it is necessary to load production and designers, so make something outstanding, such as PPS or PPSh, and not these submachine guns molded from AK. By the way, PPS-43 weighs the same, but it is exactly several times cheaper. The price tags are not given to us.

[-Dmitry-]

Moreover, Lebedev's pistol, from which you can shoot only with two hands due to recoil, is shoved by everyone.

I see that you burned a lot of cartridges from the submarine :) You give such a confident opinion :))

[Konnick]

Did they shoot? Show the video where they shoot from the submarine with one hand

[-Dmitry-]

Did they shoot? Show the video where they shoot from the submarine with one hand

Yeah, you still say in a shooting position - with an outstretched arm :))) In battle, you can shoot at least as much as possible, if only there is efficiency.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: Kot_Kuzya

Are they cutting the budget again? Fuck buying this PP

I agree. A strange choice. More weight. The slaughter is less. There are several lighter and more compact PPs for this cartridge. The pistol can also be chambered for the same cartridge. In order to unify ammunition in the stowage.
It is more stable when shooting, because it is heavy. So a pilot in a similar situation. Not a fight to lead, but to hide and wait for rescuers. He would have something silent. IMHO.

[Revolver]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

He would have something silent.

Shaft?

[Cympak]

SR-3M "Whirlwind"

with removable muffler

[mat-vey]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

He would have something silent

Take a look at the photo ... There is just this "something" ..

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: mat-vey

Take a look at the photo ... There is just this "something" ..

And the cartridge is also special, "subsonic"? And on the gun, too, PBS? In theory, it should be so.

[mat-vey]

Yes, an ordinary cartridge ... And why are those on the pistol? It's not special forces ... There is something to sneak around attracting as little attention as possible ... but what would be cheaper ..

[Snail N9]

ABOUT! The NATO cartridge for it ... So they will use the ammunition of a potential enemy if such a need arises ... I would have raised a howl about this in place of NATO members, like look, the Russians are rearming their pilots under the NATO cartridge! So soon they are going to fight on our territory! They will attack soon!

[alavrin]

Do not take away bread from Rezun ...)

[Herman 4223]

PP for pilots may be needed, but why such? It's heavy and not compact.

[Revolver]

PP chambered for 9x19 Luger? Domestic 7.62x25 seems to be more powerful, and more long-range.

[ssergey1978]

Domestic 7.62x25 has not been produced since 1989

[Thrifty]

Has the gun lobby gnawed off a piece of its budget? Good old time-tested Kalashnikov is easier and more reliable! To begin with, give a new weapon to the nth military unit, and according to the results of its operation, "attach", and do not stick it into all the cracks. ..

[Avior]

Has the gun lobby gnawed off a piece of its budget? Good old time-tested Kalashnikov is easier and more reliable!

PPK-20 - this is the Kalashnikov concern

[storm]

Than PP-2000 did not fit, in fact 2in1 ...
More compact and caliber also 9 * 19

[Konnick]

Than PP-2000 did not fit, in fact 2in1 ...
More compact and caliber also 9 * 19

And those that are not the Kalashnikov concern. This is a Tula weapon. Lobby, nothing personal

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

It is you who displayed the dream of the crews of combat vehicles, it's a pity the cartridge is not an army one.

[Avior]

... In August 2019, information appeared that the Ministry of Defense was considering the option of including submachine gun pilots in the NAZ, but it was not about the PPK-20, but about the PP-2000.

As a self-defense weapon for the pilot, the PP-2000 would be much better suited - it is more compact and much lighter (but I can not say anything about reliability, which is also an important factor).
In fact, the PP-2000 is a weapon in the dimensions and weight of a Stechkin pistol. To this it was necessary to add a compact pistol for 9 * 19- and a self-defense kit for a single cartridge would have turned out, which is very useful if something from the weapon is out of order.
A pilot on a foreign territory should avoid any contact with the enemy as much as possible, since the latter will usually have an advantage. And the ability to run and hide for him is even more important than the ability to shoot accurately (although, of course, this is also a very useful skill).
He needs weapons first of all in order to suppress the case of forced contact of the enemy with fire, to break away from him. And the PP-2000 is more than suitable for this purpose.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

The pilot on foreign territory should avoid any contact with the enemy as much as possible.

So at PPK-20 PBS .. If exactly what in the photo will go to the pilots.

[Avior]

What's the point of PBS?
As long as the enemy does not see you, you need not shoot, but leave and hide
And if he sees, pbs will not help
But running with PPK-20, and even with PBS, will be really harder

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

And if he sees, pbs will not help

I remember Rutskoi told me that the silent barrel would have helped very much to slip when it was shot down ...

Quote: Avior

ppk-20, and even with pbs

The PBS of the PPK-20 is a regular strand and includes the voiced weight ..

[Avior]

It would only help if the factors coincide
In such cases, you need to carry an arsenal with you - what if it happens?

And in most cases, you will have to run with uncomfortable heavy and large weapons.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

It would only help if the factors coincide

Well, yes, when you "make your way with your backs" It is better to shoot louder once again .. you look that one or two who will have to fill up if you can not get around and who will come to the rescue ...

[Cympak]

Quote: mat-vey

Quote: Avior

It would only help if the factors coincide

Well, yes, when you "make your way with your backs" It is better to shoot louder once again .. you look that one or two who will have to fill up if you can not get around and who will come to the rescue ...

Yeah, behind enemy lines ..... 8-)))))

[mat-vey]

Quote: Cympak

Yeah, behind enemy lines ..... 8-)))))

What did you want to say? What if the traitor did not reach his friends?

[Cympak]

If you need to "sneak backwards", then this territory is controlled by the enemy. To "shoot louder" on it means to give away your location. After that, you should wait not for help, but for the enemy capture group.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Cympak

If you need to "sneak backwards", then this territory is controlled by the enemy. To "shoot louder" on it means to give away your location. After that, you should wait not for help, but for the enemy capture group.

And when was this discovery made?
If you pay attention to the article that is being discussed here, well, or the type is being discussed, then at the very beginning there is a photo .. If you look closely at it, you can see a lot ..

[Avior]

Better not to shoot at all until you are found, I wrote about this
And the corpse of the murdered person will be found anyway

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

Better not to shoot at all until you are found

Sometimes, whatever you are found, you just have to shoot ... And until they found it, well, or as soon as they discovered it, until it became a wide property.
And if we are talking about the "best" then it is better not to fight at all.

[Vikxnumx]

And on another PP, PBS is not installed? Google to help you!

[mat-vey]

Quote: VIK1711

And on another PP, PBS is not installed? Google to help you!

PBS and put on the machine gun .. and on the "ksenia" ...
https://topwar.ru/183104-pistolet-pulemet-ppk-20-vojdet-v-nosimyj-avarijnyj-zapas-rossijskih-letchikov.html#comment-id-11489944

[Avior]

This is excess weight, which will be needed in one case in a thousand.
Not to mention the fact that these are unconfirmed words of Rutskoi himself

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

Not to mention the fact that these are unconfirmed words of Rutskoi himself

Well, in the USSR, everyone lied ... But the KGB believed them ...

[Avior]

I never read what you wrote, so I asked for a link or a quote - what was it about.
Rutskoi could be wrong.
Again, what kind of specific weapon?

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

I never read what you wrote, so I asked for a link or a quote - what was it about.
Rutskoi could be wrong.
Again, what kind of specific weapon?

This is from memory of his interview before the well-known events of the 90s happened, after which they stopped showing him and he generally began to disappear from the "TV".

[Petroff]

PP-2000 also comes with PBS.

[mat-vey]

Quote: petroff

PP-2000 also comes with PBS.

And this will add more weight to it ... And what is characteristic no one compares the cost ...

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

So after all, the pilot himself is too expensive, the cost of personal weapons in this case is mere pennies.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

So after all, the pilot himself is too expensive, the cost of personal weapons in this case is mere pennies.

We already have a normal milling machine operator, and it costs less than a pilot, only it's harder to find.

[g16.ru]

Quote: Dead Day

Andrey, you accidentally landed in the taiga ... which would you prefer, a pistol “fart”, or a Kalashmat cartridge? What are you going to make the bear angry about?

And with the AKS-74u (which, excuse me, 5.45x39), in this particular example, you will only make the bear angry.
Beasts, you know, not a man - from the first hit do not add up. From the second or third often too, especially in such ridiculous calibers.

[Avior]

To scare away animals, powerful firecrackers are suitable, flash and noise.

[ssergey1978]

Shooting in bursts increases the effect significantly. 5.45 has more penetration.

[Avior]

It has. Only if the bear catches you close, he will first have time to pick you up, and then he will die.
And if there is a distance, it is better to first try to scare off the beast with shots or flash noise, and if it does not work out, then shoot.

[Kot_Kuzya]

Quote: g16.ru

And with the AKS-74u (which, excuse me, 5.45x39), in this particular example, you will only make the bear angry.
Beasts, you know, not a man - from the first hit do not add up. From the second or third often too, especially in such ridiculous calibers.

Well, of course! A bullet with an energy of 500 J against a bear will be mountain-a-a-azdo more effective than a bullet with an energy of 950 J.

[Cruorvult]

You have a bear-phobia, where you don't jump - there are bears all around, well not elephants and rhinos.

[serg.shishkov2015]

we have * Gyurza * and * Heather *! Why didn't these fit? cartridge, however, 9 * 21, not quite standard, there is * Whirlwind * and 9A-91,

[Barberry25]

excess cartridge, not suitable for a pilot

[Petroff]

How is it redundant? Can you imagine who he will have to shoot from? From people actively using 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 ... Will the pistol cartridge help him a lot? With a distance of 200-300m, if the enemy from 500m, without straining and without fussing, puts the pilot in a dash ... And now there is a chance of catching a return bullet ... AKS74U is not accurate, but the 5.45x39 cartridge dreams of bullets farther than 9x19. Crazy, but still deadly.

[Barberry25]

do not make a special forces officer out of the pilot, it is better for the pilot to hide for 500 meters and do not googo

[SU3555]

I had the opportunity to shoot from Saiga 9 (civilian analogue of PPK). I will say that I liked it, the recoil is small, the accuracy is much better than that of the AKS74U

[Evil troll]

Replaced, and rightly so. It's time to get rid of all the junk

[Zaurbek]

Why is this PP not made for the 9x21 cartridge? He's with a butt, heavy ...

[Petroff]

Or 9x30 thunder, from Cheetah.

[Blue fox]

Ksyusha, of course, is of little use for the self-defense of a downed pilot. Whatever one may say, but ejection, especially at high speeds, does not go for nothing, and this is not taking into account the likelihood of injury to the pilot. Only a very, very trained shooter can fire from it with one hand (parodon, it will not be easy for Ksyusha to distort the shutter), which is difficult for a pilot, for obvious reasons, if not impossible. Here, it seems to me, the transition to the PP is justified, but I don't understand why the Kalash-clone, and not the PP-2000, is used. The latter is more adapted for firing with one hand, and, correctly done, its design is adapted for firing with thick gloves, etc., that is, in a hypothetical altitude-compensating suit.

[John22]

I agree completely. AKS-74U is an unsuccessful design, or rather a conversion from AK-74 to PDW.

[Cottodraton]

So and amb 17 or whatever, did you want it?

[uav80]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

I think the pilots will speak better about this castling.

At the beginning of 2021, military-technical experiments took place, in which several dozen crews of fighters and bombers took part. The pilots passed a closed survey, according to the results of which PPK-20 and PLC received the highest score.
(c) https://news.ru

[Avior]

It is not known whether PP-2000 participated in them.
Following the link, an anonymous source said that 4 manufacturers were allegedly involved.

[aglet]

"The pilots passed the closed interview"
well, that is, purely in words?

[Avior]

Moreover, it is not known what exactly was asked and what kind of experiments were

[Vikxnumx]

The pilots passed a closed survey, according to the results of which the PPK-20 and PLC received the highest score.

so that's why it's closed!
you can write any result

[Konnick]

Quote: -Dmitry-

I see that you burned a lot of cartridges from the submarine :) You give such a confident opinion :))

Before putting a minus, find a video with Lebedev's pistol shooting with one hand. The recoil is very strong, you think it's just that the army is in no hurry to arm them. Waiting for the video

[-Dmitry-]

Before putting a minus, find a video with Lebedev's pistol shooting with one hand. The recoil is very strong, you think it's just that the army is in no hurry to arm them. Waiting for the video

All CSs have very strong recoil. The gun will twitch anyway, that's the first thing. Second, the recoil force largely depends on the cartridge, and not on the design. Thirdly, they shoot from two hands and from the Glock, etc. pistols. Because one-handed shooting is trap shooting, not practical. Find me a video where practitioners shoot with one hand, to begin with.

[Konnick]

Find me a video where practitioners shoot with one hand, to begin with.

Watch high-speed AIM shooting from PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3YHStfAas
This is an expert from experts. Such high-speed aimed shooting is possible from the PM, and from the sub, it throws up too much and wastes time on returning to the aiming line. With two hands, he shoots only 100 meters ... and hits.

[mat-vey]

I was assured here - a military website and all that ... Have you tried to compare the energy of the cartridges? There is twice the difference ... But is it really important?

[Konnick]

I was assured here - a military website and all that ... Have you tried to compare the energy of the cartridges? There is twice the difference ... But is it really important?

And why is excess power to a pistol when there is a machine gun nearby? That for the pilot, that for the commander of the unit, especially in battle, the commander, in order not to be unmasked, must be armed with the same as the subordinates. The Makarov pistol is enough, only the cartridges need to be improved.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Konnick

Why is there excess power to the pistol

The excess cartridge 9X19 survived.

Quote: Konnick

especially in battle, the commander, in order not to unmask, must be armed with the same as the subordinates

How many friends and acquaintances passed through Afghanistan, all ran with machine guns, and the pistol did not care what - the lizhba weighed less, anyway, he would only shoot himself if he needed anything.

Quote: Konnick

The Makarov pistol is enough, only the cartridges need to be improved

Makarovsky for PP? Or do you suggest that the pilot carry an arsenal of cartridges with you?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I heard about my acquaintances who preferred a pistol to a submachine gun many times, mostly junior officers. They could choose for themselves. But the fact that for the crews of combat vehicles they abandoned Stechkin and handed the AKS-74u a decision at least controversial. Either out of fear to issue pistols to privates, or to maintain status, so that they do not look like officers. The situation when a driver-mechanic or gunner-operator got out of the car and entered into battle with his personal weapon is already abnormal, and in this abnormal situation with a machine gun it is not possible to get out. And what is it like for a grenade launcher, signalman, machine gunner, mortarman and artillery gunner to drag a submachine gun instead of a pistol?
Of course, this does not apply to the topic of the article, but I do not understand the complete rejection of pistols.

[-Dmitry-]

Quote: Konnick

Find me a video where practitioners shoot with one hand, to begin with.

Watch high-speed AIM shooting from PM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-3YHStfAas
This is an expert from experts. Such high-speed aimed shooting is possible from the PM, and from the sub, it throws up too much and wastes time on returning to the aiming line. With two hands, he shoots only 100 meters ... and hits.

Have you watched your own video? :))) Throughout the entire video, he shoots with two hands :)

[Avior]

For the New Year, the children bought us a certificate for the shooting range.
They also shot from Glock, Zigzauer and German police officer Walter
The cartridge is the same.
The recoil is different. The Zigzauer turned out to be very soft, but the Glock has a rather hard recoil. But with all three, you can safely shoot with one hand, including with high-speed shooting

[t7310]

Quote: -Dmitry-

Thirdly, they shoot from two hands and from the Glock, etc. pistols. Because shooting with one hand is trap shooting, not practical. Find me a video where practitioners shoot with one hand, to begin with

in case of mechanical damage to one of the hands, the shooter is forced to shoot from one hand
I'm behind the PP-2000 with a silencer and optics, it will be more comfortable to run and hide, the power range is acceptable

[-Dmitry-]

in case of mechanical damage to one of the hands, the shooter is forced to shoot from one hand
I'm behind the PP-2000 with a silencer and optics, it will be more comfortable to run and hide, the power range is acceptable

In case of injury to one hand, then shooting even from the PP-2000 will not be effective. You can shoot with one hand from it, yes, but it is effective only for a short time. The PPK-20 PBS also has a collimator there, too.

[jobbie]

Kindergarten. Have sunk. Even as a child, I remember that these days everyone had to shoot from laser blasters.

[Konnick]

Quote: mat-vey

I remember Rutskoi told me that the silent barrel would have helped very much to slip when it was shot down ...

Rutskoi is still a dreamer, Gromov denied all these stories, saying that Rutskoy was twice ransomed from captivity.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Konnick

, having said that Rutskoi had been ransomed from captivity twice.

And what is this now a secret? Or do you want that he deliberately ejected and surrender at a run?

[Avior]

And why did he need a silent weapon during the ransom? Can you give a link where he says it? Or a quote?

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

And why did he need a silent weapon during the ransom?

And what do you need a weapon for when you ransom? I wonder for what? I will reveal the secret of Punchinelle - weapons sometimes help not to be taken prisoner .. there is no captivity - there is no need for a ransom ... Or what?

[Konnick]

And why did he need a silent weapon during the ransom? Can you give a link where he says it? Or a quote?

Please, if you have no time https://lenta.ru/news/2018/06/02/rutzkoy/

[mat-vey]

There was an interview with Rutskoi where he told how he got out ... But a very long time ago .. even in the 90s ..

[Avior]

Sorry, I did not find the link about silent weapons.
Can I quote?

[mat-vey]

Wouldn't it be difficult for you to quote from the discussion where it was said that weapons were used in general during the ransom?

[Avior]

I ask you to confirm in general the statement that Rutskoy needed a silent weapon. No need to play around.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

No need to play around.

And you, actually, who would play in front of you?

[Avior]

Clear. The drain is accepted.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

The drain is counted.

Yes, you can even hang yourself the order "For the victory in the dispute which was not."
I have my opinion that the pilots for their more concealed evacuation for greater stealth, since they are just getting out and ground combat is not their "profession" expressed, but where your fantasy took you, this is your problem.

[Konnick]

Quote: mat-vey

And what is this now a secret? Or do you want that he deliberately ejected and surrender at a run?

About his silent shooting, if he shot back, he would have stayed there. Yes, he was shot down, but he did not show much heroism, unlike Roman Filipov.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Konnick

About his silent shooting, if he shot back

And he fired back. Only one had to be removed in order to slip through, but from the "ksyuha" it turned out loud ...

[mat-vey]

Quote: Konnick

About his silent shooting, if he shot back, he would have stayed there. Yes, he was shot down, but he did not show much heroism, unlike Roman Filipov.

"Having landed, the pilot left the pursuit for five days without food, killed almost all the militants who were catching up with him, but was handed over to the Mujahideen by a local resident and then handed over to the Pakistanis."
According to your link ... Imagine - I shot back ...

[Konnick]

It says "officially" i.e. he himself told, and at the beginning it is written that Gromov said that Rutskoy was twice ransomed from captivity, if he shot one of the dushmans, and then they caught him, he was not left alive. Rutskoi states that he was exchanged only once. I spoke with Rutskoi personally, he is still a dreamer

[mat-vey]

Quote: Konnick

then they did not leave him alive.

Why did you decide that? My childhood friend in Afghanistan spent more than one year, Rutskoi was not very much the same, but then it was very problematic to lie ... spared no expense ..

[Avior]

But not a word about silent weapons

[mat-vey]

Quote: Avior

But not a word about silent weapons

This is specifically to make you worried ...

[V1er]

In my humble opinion, either give the pilot a very compact light PP, like PP-2000. Or give a full-fledged small-sized machine gun - AM-17

 Show / Hide text

[-Dmitry-]

Or give a full-fledged small-sized machine gun - AM-17

Well, it has not yet passed the tests, this is firstly, and secondly, they say, due to its low weight, the recoil on it is quite significant. So the accuracy (accuracy) will hardly be much better than that of the same Ksenia.

[skipper83]

Saiga 9, is this pc made from?

[Barberry25]

Well, there are no complaints about the PPK for packing, but a pistol is not needed in unloading for nothing .. Better some modernized Beech was placed

[JonnyT]

The decision is right.
PP, of course, is rather weak, but pilots also fight up to 200m

Who of the ksyuha shot knows that she starts spitting very quickly and flies where in vain.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

This is not the point, the point is the ability to screw on the muffler using a standard pistol cartridge. Under the standard 5,45, there is a suspicion that the muffler will not work.

[senima56]

PPK-20 and PLC are excellent replacement for AKSU-74U and Makarov! They have more cartridges!

[Petroff]

Is a pistol a great replacement for a machine gun? These are two different types of weapons, they cannot be better or worse. AKS74U can be used at a distance of 500m thanks to an automatic, intermediate cartridge. PP at a distance of over 300 is useless.
Before answering, think about what the pilot's opponents are armed with?
Output!? The pilot is destroyed immediately, at a distance of 300-700 meters, without a chance to resist.

[-Dmitry-]

AKS74U can be used at a distance of 500m thanks to an automatic, intermediate cartridge.

Have you tried to shoot at such a distance? :) This is a simple translation of BC.

[Petroff]

Reread until you fully understand what has been written.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

And you take a closer look at the illustrations, a muffler is screwed to the PP in the photo. You can't just screw a muffler to the AKS-74u and get the same result, you need a special cartridge, with which all the advantages will be lost. In this case, noiselessness of shooting is preferred, other factors are secondary.

[mat-vey]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

In this case, silent shooting is preferred.

With minimal problems of providing it ... And the cartridge seems to have been chosen for this very reason ...

[Barberry25]

A pistol is a replacement for APS, and a PP is a replacement for AKSU .. at effective combat ranges for the pilot, and this is up to 150 meters, he’s nothing to himself .. And you can find out .. who you have big-eyed in green from 700 meters will work on the pilot?

[senima56]

Then let's equip the pilot with a PC machine gun! And RPG-7 to boot! It is not necessary to bring to insanity!
PPK-20 and PLC use one 9x19 ammunition and this is already a "+". Do not forget the main thing NAZ is limited in weight! Therefore, it is better to increase the ammunition capacity than the caliber of the weapon. And the pilot must be rescued BEFORE the "barmaley" find him!

[Alexfly]

I want such an appreciation in the old forgotten caliber 7,62x25, for example, for comparing ballistic data and hunting for jerboas ...

[Eug]

And what did not suit the AM pilots? For the sake of a single cartridge, so reduce the combat characteristics of the weapon and lower the already very low chances ... in terms of dimensions, the AM does not differ much from the PPK, the main difference in the weight of the wearable ammunition .. I would prefer more (not critical if we are talking about 60 cartridges - two magazines) a heavy, but also more lethal cartridge.

[edelweiss968]

replacing AKS 74u with a PP is a step towards the plant. as well as the option of complete replacement of the pilot's shooting kit, with its transfer under one type of ammunition. IMHO, although not the best, in my opinion it would be better to have a 9x39 option, and even without the option of firing in bursts, a maximum of 3 rounds.
in order to increase the pilot's chances of survival, one must go the other way:
availability and use of individual means of camouflage, new and promising;
availability and use of communication and signaling facilities;
the presence and use of evacuation and rescue forces and means, which would be armed not only with helicopters, but also the ability to use all forces and means to block and destroy enemy forces and means that impede the ongoing rescue operation.

[Xscorpion]

In the article, the performance characteristics are slightly incorrect, which is why many commentators are confused. The weight of the PPK-20 submachine gun with an equipped magazine is 2,85 kg. And the weight of 3,61 kg, which is indicated in the article is the weight of the kit, in which, in addition to weapons includes a silent firing device and a magazine bag with cleaning tools (pencil case) and an oil can.

[Barberry25]

the main thing is to start putting the collimator sight

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Most commentators have no idea that the PBS does not work for a standard submachine gun cartridge, a special one is needed. And with PPK-20, apparently, they get by with a standard cartridge. Accordingly, the AKS-74U loses all its advantages if a weakened cartridge is used. It's just that the level of discussion is below the plinth.

[mat-vey]

Kalashnikov. WEAPONS, AMMUNITION, EQUIPMENT 4/2003
Reprint of "Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 3/99".
Special ammunition for weapons with a silencer ... exposure;
"And since the bullets of cartridges of short-barreled weapons with a comparable mass have a lower lateral load than bullets for long-barreled weapons, they also have a greater damaging effect on a target in the subsonic range. Simply put, they make large wound channels. In addition, sound damping The 9 mm Luger cartridge (9x19 Para), in which the conditions of the equipment are changed to a minimum, the Heckler & Koch MP-5 submachine gun with an integrated silencer is the standard choice of most special forces in the world. Another example is when the Swedish army started looking for a new survival weapon for pilots, she turned to the Glock26 pistol and equipped it with a special silencer from Bruegger & Thomet, one of the leading companies in this field. By the way, pilots have been willingly equipped with silenced pistols for a long time.
shot down on May 1, 1960 over the Soviet territory of the U-2 aircraft. "

[mat-vey]

Quote: Xscorpion

And the weight of 3,61 kg, which is indicated in the article, is the weight of the kit, which, in addition to weapons, includes a silent firing device and a bag for magazines with cleaning tools (pencil case) and an oil can.

So there is also spare parts and accessories, otherwise it seemed that the adaptable butt and PBS had caught up so much weight .. The base is the same AKMSU ... Although the doldonish here doldonish that "Ksyuha" with PBS will be even harder, but to see the printed word is not so perceived.

[Petrik66]

It is not clear what the Ministry of Defense should do to please the connoisseurs of the local spill? Well, everything is not so: the fuse is heavy, the flyers cannot shoot, the cartridge is not the right one, "Ksenia" is good or, on the contrary, it sucks, the Americans are losers and cannot make the right decision by choosing a photon blaster from Star Wars. Demagogues - one word. although there are other more precise expressions in Russian. Strange, it’s time to plant potatoes, and our veterans of the research institute, who are not aging at heart, still cannot calm down.

[Vladimir Koshevoi]

Think of a controlled flying catapult chair? At least 10-15 km from the ejection site. Sometimes these kilometers are not enough for salvation.
Fantasy .., but I want to.

[andrew42]

So many copies have been broken, there is nowhere to put your foot. Several times it was announced that the main task of the ejected pilot is Survival. Survival is usually inseparable from the most secretive movement. Covert movement implies a silent fire defeat of the enemy. Therefore, the pilot's small arms must correspond to the weapons of the Sabotage groups - low noise and quite lethal. .If there is no one with suitable dimensions / weight and power of the cartridge, then it is necessary to do it. If the pilot was found, the search groups pulled together and surrounded it, no matter what he will "hold the position" - "ksyuhoy", or PPK-20, or the Cliff will suddenly pull out of his pants.

[mat-vey]

Quote: mat-vey

Kalashnikov. WEAPONS, AMMUNITION, EQUIPMENT 4/2003
Reprint of "Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 3/99".
Special ammunition for weapons with a silencer ... exposure;
"And since the bullets of cartridges of short-barreled weapons with a comparable mass have a lower lateral load than bullets for long-barreled weapons, they also have a greater damaging effect on a target in the subsonic range. Simply put, they make large wound channels. In addition, sound damping The 9 mm Luger cartridge (9x19 Para), in which the conditions of the equipment are changed to a minimum, the Heckler & Koch MP-5 submachine gun with an integrated silencer is the standard choice of most special forces in the world. Another example is when the Swedish army started looking for a new survival weapon for pilots, she turned to the Glock26 pistol and equipped it with a special silencer from Bruegger & Thomet, one of the leading companies in this field. By the way, pilots have been willingly equipped with silenced pistols for a long time.
shot down on May 1, 1960 over the Soviet territory of the U-2 aircraft. "

[Owl]

PL - precise, ergonomic. As for the PPK-20, it is suitable for self-defense, but in pursuit of using the "remains of the production" AKS-74U, the PPK used the entire bar, sights similar to the automatic AK-12, AK-15 (with a diopter) were not supplied. The use of diopter sighting devices, with an increased (compared to automatic) diopter - will allow more effective aimed fire at distances of up to 100 meters, especially at dusk. I doubt the presence of collimator sights for weapons from the pilot's "AZ".

[bunta]

An absolutely moronic decision. Filippov's death taught nothing. Shoot back from bandits armed with machine guns, bursts of pistol cartridges. Great idea. In terms of mass and dimensions, PPK-20 is close to a full-fledged AK. What are they saving on? The aircraft carries a load of up to 8 tons. Is it really necessary to save a couple of kilograms in the pilot's equipment ?! If only to disrupt the state order for the concern. Well, the pilots ... "For the boys!" We remember.