"Pitfalls" "Severodvinsk-M" (APKR "Kazan")

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"Pitfalls" "Severodvinsk-M" (APKR "Kazan")

On May 5, the acceptance certificate was signed on the lead serial nuclear submarine cruiser (APCR) "Kazan" of project 885M (legally, this is the date of the beginning of service in the Navy), and on May 7, a public event was held to raise the naval flag.


Employees of "Sevmash", crew members and commissions after signing the acceptance certificate. Photo: forums.airbase.ru, user VKoshkin, link

In 2014, the author published an article in the "Military-Industrial Courier" "Pitfalls of Severodvinsk"up to date.
It is enough to cite only one fact. Ice firing, the extreme necessity of which was written in this article (for the new APCR project 885), was carried out for the first time in the Russian Navy (and the USSR) only now, and even then - they did not dare to carry it out from Severodvinsk.



Alas, we have to admit that the acute problems raised by this article and in a number of subsequent articles in the "Military Review":
"AICR" Severodvinsk "surrendered to the Navy with critical deficiencies for combat readiness",
"Arctic torpedo scandal",
"Anti-torpedo catastrophe of the Russian fleet",
are still relevant.

With regard to the reception of the new agro-industrial complex "Kazan" by the Navy, we have to talk about the "pitfalls" of "Severodvinsk-M" ("Kazan").

The first (and not the main thing). Low noise


The absence of a water cannon (typical for all modern nuclear-powered submarines) on the AICR "Kazan" unambiguously indicates the presence of a significant lag behind the AICR project 885 (M) from modern submarines of the US Navy, Great Britain and France in stealth. First of all - by the value of low-noise speed.


Photo: mil.ru / wikipedia.org

At the same time, this is not a particularly critical issue, since it rests on the objective capabilities of our mechanical engineering. At the same time, at low speeds, the noise level of our nuclear submarines is very low. And with unconventional tactical actions (see article“At the forefront of the underwater confrontation. "Cold War" submarine ") allowed our submarines to resist foreign ones.

But a higher low-noise travel speed would definitely not be superfluous, but it is not.

Second. Submarine search and stealth issues


The media have repeatedly raised questions of the alleged "critical lag" of domestic hydroacoustics from foreign ones. In reality, the technical level of domestic hydroacoustic complexes (SAC) submarines is very high. But again - adjusted for the objective capabilities of the industry (for example, the need to use a domestic element and component base).

Figuratively speaking, two "athletes" enter the competition: the "western" one in "shorts and sneakers" and ours "full combat gear". And taking into account this (objective!) Factor, the results of the domestic developers of hydroacoustics are quite decent.

However, there is a problem, and a serious one: our significant lag in the introduction of new technologies for searching for submarines, including multi-position ones, with low-frequency "illumination" of the water area (which can be covert)... This problem is recognized among specialists. And how long. Measures were proposed. However, they did not receive due attention from the customer (the Ministry of Defense).

This situation is further aggravated by the introduction in industry of a rigid centralization of work on radio-electronic means, and especially hydroacoustics. The last one is the formation of a concern of marine instrumentation. As a result, where it is necessary to do it “yesterday” and quickly implement it on ships, we have a complex organizational structure of the “monster”. Yes, work is underway. However, due to organizational problems, their deadlines are unacceptably long.

"It is impossible to defend against such detection, so why upset our submariners?"


An even more acute problem is in fact the already held revolution of new means of searching for submarines, already non-acoustic. First of all, this concerns the capabilities of special radars to detect disturbances on the water surface caused by the movement of submarine hulls in the water column.

Although it was in our country (in the USSR back in the 70s) that the study of these search methods began, now a number of specialists and managers are questioning their real effectiveness (despite the availability of objective detection results). There is a well-founded opinion that one of the reasons for this is that, taking into account this factor, serious questions arise about the feasibility of building submarines of large displacement.

Here it is worth quoting the Soviet head of the advanced design department of the Central Research Institute. Krylova A.M. Vasilyeva, with the assessment of this issue by the last Soviet deputy commander-in-chief of the Navy for shipbuilding and armament, Admiral Novoselov:

... At the meeting, he did not give the floor to the head of the institute, who was eager to talk about experiments to detect the surfaced trace of a submarine using a radar ... Much later, at the end of 1989, he asked him why he dismissed this question. To this Fyodor Ivanovich replied as follows:
"I know about this effect, it is impossible to defend against such detection, so why upset our divers?"

And here a very serious question arises - how optimal, in general, are the dimensions and characteristics of the 885M project? Or are they already "dinosaurs" and "targets" for the enemy?

Questions that no one wants to deal with. This is confirmed by the frankly pitiful project of the allegedly "promising" nuclear submarine of the Navy "Husky", presented to the President a year and a half ago at the Navy exhibition in Sevastopol.


USET-80 propeller and torpedoes on a supposedly "promising" 5th generation nuclear submarine. It would be very funny if it weren't very sad.

Another important point is working in shallow water. Our opponents are actively training to operate in such conditions, including under the ice - such skills of the crews will be critically important during any conflict, for example, in the Arctic.


The US Navy is actively preparing to operate in shallow water

The question arises - how will the submarines with the dimensions of "Kazan" and "Severodvinsk" operate there?

Note. A number of aspects of the nuclear submarine dimension were discussed in the article "Does our fleet need a small multipurpose nuclear submarine?".

Third (and most important). Weapons and countermeasures


Our submarines still need to reach the point of volley of excellent "Caliber", "Onyx" and "Zircon" and survive. The reality of this against a modern strong enemy, given the lack of effective anti-torpedo protection in our submarines, is in question.

The Modul-D nuclear submarine countermeasures complex has a deliberately low (extremely low) efficiency.


Rear Admiral A. N. Lutsky, an article in the "Marine Collection" and products of the "Module-D" complex

Despite the excellent backlog of anti-torpedoes (“Lasta” for submarines), in fact, domestic submarines have no anti-torpedo protection (in fact, we have “Tanks without armor ").

Briefly on "Laste". After the summer of 2013, there is no doubt about the ability of "Fins" to reliably kill attacking torpedoes. The anti-torpedo turned out much better than expected.

However, all the terms for equipping our submarines with them have been disrupted (a number of details are in the materials of the arbitration courts) for purely organizational (non-technical) reasons.

In general, the issues of anti-torpedo protection were disclosed in the aforementioned material. "Anti-torpedo disaster" of the Russian fleet.
There can be only one solution here: the customer's tough position on the unconditional delivery of the nuclear submarine with the anti-torpedoes provided (by the requirements and state contracts for them).

Scuba weapon... We have absolutely insufficient statistics of tests, with which not only its normal development is impossible, but also a simple identification of all problems and shortcomings. Specifically for "Kazan" (project 885M) - a visually noticeable change in contours (from "Severodvinsk" of project 885) in the area of ​​torpedo tubes clearly indicates problems with them on "Severodvinsk". Moreover, problems that were clear at once. And it was written about them, including in the media ("Pitfalls of Severodvinsk").

The analysis of materials of the US Navy shows a number of technical problems with damage and vehicles, and torpedoes, which they received on board the TA and for a long time eliminated them. Taking into account the fundamentally different torpedo complex and the new torpedo, the following (minimal!) List of only “valid” tests of the “Physicists” from “Ash” was suggested:

• firing all torpedo tubes at maximum firing speed without remote control;
• firing all torpedo tubes at maximum firing speed with remote control;

in combination with shooting at various targets, single and salvo (including remote control) under hydroacoustic counteraction (GPA), recording and measuring the noise of gunfire and torpedoes (including - and this is very important - discrete components).

Have all the necessary tests been carried out at Severodvinsk and Kazan?

I'm sure not. First, it is “expensive”. Secondly, "you will have to redo". And thirdly, "the boat must be taken urgently."

And here it will once again be appropriate to recall the literal phrase of one of the developers of the complex of underwater weapons and counteraction to the 885 project:

The project - 885 - somehow went through all the design stages and was accepted for construction. For us, this project has long been the only real embodiment of the 4th generation TA. Now projects 955 and 955A are underway ... The same parameters of the power plant of the torpedo tubes were left, either sadness or laughter, as they were for the 3rd generation.

That is, what we received on the 885 project is a deteriorated version of the 3rd generation nuclear submarine weapon systems (that is, developments in the 70s of the last century).

PS


Calling a spade a spade, the AICR "Kazan" was accepted by the fleet simply in order to report its acceptance to the Supreme. Accepted with a mass of critical flaws and, in fact, did not meet the requirements and the state contract for the construction.

Taking into account all this and the unfolding tough discussion about the Navy, people who vehemently criticize the balanced development of the Navy (especially when they have, to put it mildly, a biased opinion about the supposedly "invulnerable submarine") are frankly bewildering:

It is a nuclear submarine, invulnerable at great depths, poorly detectable, with modern weapons on board in launch silos - that's the real tomorrow. Whatever the fans of budget-eating ships with hangars try to prove. For even three aircraft carriers will not be able to do anything special on the scale of the war of tomorrow.

The best answer (fact) to this will be an illustration from the 90s of the change in the “visibility” of submarines of the USSR and Russian Navy during passive search and in conditions of low-frequency “illumination”.


Added to this are new non-acoustic detection tools. And here the words of the last deputy head of the USSR Navy for shipbuilding and armaments should be quoted again:

“I know about this effect, it is impossible to defend against such detection, so why upset our submariners "?

But what if the crew of "Kazan" "upset" a real enemy in a real war?
110 comments
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  1. -10
    17 May 2021 18: 15
    However, there is a problem, and a serious one: our significant lag in the introduction of new technologies for searching for submarines, including multi-position ones, with low-frequency "illumination" of the water area (which can be covert)

    It seems that recently there was an article about Kazan, where it was indicated that a detection station (or whatever it is called correctly) from Borey was installed in Kazan, with a detection range of 300 km.
    1. +3
      17 May 2021 18: 23
      Way out: in the construction of a large number of small nuclear submarines. Not?
      1. -3
        17 May 2021 18: 31
        Way out: in the construction of a large number of small nuclear submarines. Not?

        How small? How much provisions can you fit in a small building?
        1. ANB
          +12
          17 May 2021 23: 17
          ... How much provisions can you fit in a small building

          Provisions for 667 bdr are good if 1 percent of the total volume of the space is occupied.
          More automation, less equipment, less crew.
          Look at the 705 project. But this is the end of the 60s. The lamps were also used to the full.
          1. -5
            18 May 2021 07: 03
            I hope the author knows what he is writing and I hope he does not divulge anything unnecessary.
      2. +27
        17 May 2021 19: 03
        Something like that, yes. But this is a topic for a separate material.

        On the way is a "program" article that we wrote together with Klimov on the appearance of the modern threat to submarines, starting from this it will be possible to think over the submarine.
        1. +13
          17 May 2021 22: 40
          Thank you for your work. Reading your articles is always pleasant and interesting, instructive and sad at the same time.
          It is necessary to know the truth, but what will happen if we bring it all to the consciousness of our population? There will be a shock. Or they will not want to believe it, for it will be difficult to accept this truth ...
        2. +1
          19 May 2021 07: 15
          Throwing stones afterwards is much easier! Didn't you see your articles during the development of the project?
          1. +4
            19 May 2021 14: 08
            This is not my article, I just posted it in my account.
            Development began under Gorshkov. What articles could there be then?
      3. -2
        22 May 2021 12: 32
        not this way (!)
        better implement the introduction of air defense systems on nuclear submarines
        2 variants of SAM with ARGSN: Bukovskaya 3M317M - 75 km, Redutovskaya 9M96E2 - 150 km
        launch from a TA from depths of no more than 200 meters
        MC from MKRTs Liana
        or passive periscope radars
        transfer of the control center to the nuclear submarine through the Zeus system
        The fact of the presence of an air defense system on a nuclear submarine pushes the patrol zone of PLO aircraft to 75 and 150 km
        Second, on 4 thrusters Ash can go on 5 knots
        leaving short-lived footprints like a common dolphin or whale
        if you look like that, then the article is not about anything
    2. +8
      17 May 2021 18: 37
      Quote: lucul
      that a detection station was installed in Kazan (or whatever it is correctly called) from Borey, with a detection range of 300 km.

      Do you understand what you wrote?
      1. -9
        17 May 2021 18: 41
        This is where it is written?

        Here
        Plus, there was information that the "Boreyevsky" hydroacoustic complex MGK-600B "Irtysh-Amphora-B-055" was installed on "Kazan". An almost fully automated hydroacoustic complex with a range of more than 300 km.

        Details
        https://topwar.ru/182846-ura-tem-kto-sdal-kazan.html
        1. +9
          17 May 2021 19: 03
          This is not a source, to put it mildly.
          1. 0
            18 May 2021 09: 06
            This is not a source, to put it mildly.

            Well, what then stands on Borea? Isn't it MGK-600B Irtysh-Amphora-B-055? What is its detection range?
    3. +12
      17 May 2021 19: 02
      Bolted by Uncle Vasya.
      Why are you writing this nonsense? The article was written by a person who served on a nuclear submarine for ten years and then worked in the defense industry in positions that imply all the relevant approvals and knowledge of real information.
      Do not invent anything from yourself, please.
      1. -1
        18 May 2021 09: 12
        Bolted by Uncle Vasya.

        In Severodvinsk there is the Irtysh-Amphora-Yasen State Joint Stock Company. Various media refer to the fact that Kazan already has a state joint-stock company from Borey.
        Why are you writing this nonsense? The article was written by a person who served on a nuclear submarine for ten years and then worked in the defense industry in positions that imply all the relevant approvals and knowledge of real information.

        Then the direct question is - what does this person know about GAK Irtysh-Amphora-B-055? Within the confines of non-disclosure of classified information eu-cno.
        1. -2
          18 May 2021 12: 03
          Within the confines of non-disclosure of classified information eu-cno.

          Well, it will not work on Ash-M without it
          1. 0
            18 May 2021 17: 43
            Well, it will not work on Ash-M without it

            Understood, then I shut up.
    4. +1
      17 May 2021 20: 50
      Yes. In addition, the water cannon, reducing the noise of the course, also limits the speed of the submarine. And at relatively high speeds, the same American women do not make noise much quieter due to the peculiarities of the case design.
      1. +3
        18 May 2021 09: 51
        Quote: Nikkon
        Yes. In addition, the water cannon, reducing the noise of the course, also limits the speed of the submarine. And at relatively high speeds, the same American women do not make noise much quieter due to the peculiarities of the case design.


        How does increasing the low-noise speed from 5 knots (on the propeller) to 18-20 knots (on the jet) "limit the speed of the submarine"?

        And high speeds for a submarine are closer to a "psychic attack in red uniforms" ...
        Where you can easily fly in the forehead and in the back.
        1. -1
          19 May 2021 00: 05
          Virginia's speed on the jet is 25 knots. Near Kazan 30
          Quote: SovAr238A
          And high speeds for a submarine are closer to a "psychic attack in red uniforms" ...

          No words! Then why doesn't everyone walk on 5 nodes? And the noise is less, and the move is economical ... Think at your leisure.
          1. +1
            20 May 2021 11: 04
            Quote: Nikkon
            Virginia's speed on the jet is 25 knots. Near Kazan 30
            Quote: SovAr238A
            And high speeds for a submarine are closer to a "psychic attack in red uniforms" ...

            No words! Then why doesn't everyone walk on 5 nodes? And the noise is less, and the move is economical ... Think at your leisure.


            Do you have no words?
            Have you thought about this question yourself?
            In your opinion, SSBNs / SSBNs are carrying out their combat service in the area - at speeds of 25 knots?
            That the submarines that "protect" them or that "graze" them - also move at speeds of 25 knots?
            Seem to be. that you have a lot to learn.
  2. +2
    17 May 2021 18: 18
    I have always been puzzled by the fact that there are no water cannons on these logs, although they are developed by industry and are used on the Borei.
    And why do these trees have cuttings like those of the 3rd generation nuclear submarines, if the cuttings on the Boreys are identical to the American ones?
    And at the same time, these logs cost 1.5-2 times all the same "Boreyev".
    1. -13
      17 May 2021 18: 24
      And at the same time, these logs cost 1.5-2 times all the same "Boreyev".

      Immersion depth))))
      Only Sivulf can compare with Kazan)))
      1. +10
        17 May 2021 19: 06
        What do you know about this? Not a single submarine has real working depths and the maximum depths do not coincide with the declared ones, the amers have speed, but you know everything, as it turns out.
        Kazan can be taken by any submarine in the world, which has normal GPRS and torpedoes.
        1. -4
          18 May 2021 09: 15
          Kazan can be taken by any submarine in the world, which has normal GPRS and torpedoes.

          Well, let's compare GAKs in Virginia and Kazan.
        2. -1
          19 May 2021 09: 05
          Yeah, especially MK48, which are older than USET-80
          1. +3
            19 May 2021 14: 07
            Is this mod.7 older than USET-80? What reality are you writing from?
    2. +3
      17 May 2021 18: 40
      Quote: El Dorado
      I have always been puzzled by the fact that there are no water cannons on these logs, although they are developed by industry and are used on the Borei.


      A good question is why? Why does the 885 have a propeller and the 955 have a water cannon?
    3. +21
      17 May 2021 19: 05
      Learn. This is how the Malachite people work.
      Moreover, for the sake of the Ash, the entire modernization program of old submarines was cut down.
      The propeller is there because they do not care whether the ship is fit for battle or not.
      And the screw has a higher efficiency, so they stuck it.
      They were just making a sub, not a combat sub.
      1. 0
        19 May 2021 16: 55
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Learn. This is how the Malachite people work.
        Moreover, for the sake of the Ash, the entire modernization program of old submarines was cut down.
        The propeller is there because they do not care whether the ship is fit for battle or not.
        And the screw has a higher efficiency, so they stuck it.
        They were just making a sub, not a combat sub.


        What low-noise speed can be potentially obtained with propellers, and what with water cannons (with comparable noise)?

        In fact, a water cannon is a "screw in a pipe" - http://forums.airbase.ru/2016/04/t91520--apl-virginia-ssn-774-class.3500.html What is the complexity of its production?

        In general, of course, this is an interesting question, given that all modern submarines come with a water cannon.

        And yet, it would be interesting to read what is the difference between SSBNs and SSBNs in detail - the difference in speed between Ash and Borey is 2 knots, a working depth of 120 meters, autonomy, crew - everything is comparable. The reactors are the same. GAS based on one project.

        Ash's TA is 10 versus Borey's 6, Astiut has 6 TA, Virginia has 4 in general

        What then are the key differences? Dive speed? Maneuverability? How different are these parameters?

        This I mean, that does not allow the use of Borei as a SSAP? Especially if you cut them in length at the expense of the missile compartment, reducing the displacement to "Yasenevsky", or even not reducing?
    4. +1
      18 May 2021 11: 40
      Quote: El Dorado
      And at the same time, these logs cost 1.5-2 times all the same "Boreyev".

      The weapon complex is more complicated. And tasks. Borei operate with one single type of weapon - ICBMs. They do not need to look for someone somewhere, to catch up. Their task is to secretly go to the launch area, fire a salvo and try to leave.
      Therefore, they are both simpler and cheaper.
      Well, it's like comparing the Iskander launcher's chassis and the T-90 tank.
  3. +6
    17 May 2021 18: 37
    It turns out that for a long time everyone knows and recognizes the fact that our nuclear submarines are too large and they are easy to detect by disturbances on the water surface caused by their enormous size, and there is little space for them under the ice, for example, depths of up to 50 m prevail in the Laptev Sea, more than half of the sea ( 53%) - a gentle continental shoal with an average depth of less than or a little more than 50 meters, moreover, in the bottom areas to the south of the 76th parallel they are at a depth of less than 25 meters, and the overall height of the nuclear submarine is 13m hull diameter plus 8m cutting height As a result, 20m, this is a 9-storey building, of course a normal commander such a child will not trample under the ice, Our double-hull boats have a buoyancy margin of 30-40% and even a diesel Varshavyanka with a surface displacement of 2350 tons, the underwater one has 3950 tons, that is, it consists of 41% of water and despite it will not be able to break the ice and float for a serious buoyancy reserve, then why the designer was poured into the project 1600 tons of water, and in fact, why, maybe they are paid bonuses for water.
    1. -5
      17 May 2021 18: 44
      they are easy to detect by disturbances on the water surface caused by their enormous size

      At a depth of 600m, on a small, stealthy course, will you detect the submarine by water disturbances on the surface? )))
      1. +8
        17 May 2021 18: 58
        Firstly, 600m is the limiting depth, most of the trip takes place at much shallower depths and with a hull diameter of 13m and a nuclear submarine length of 160m, surface disturbance will take place up to depths of 100-150m, of course, much depends on the state of ocean waves, but if calm during the day or at night it makes no difference , will definitely be found. , the surface perturbation creates the volume of the boat, and it is large, for example, 20000 m3 and the speed of the course, so there is only one way out - it is necessary to reduce the size.
        1. 0
          17 May 2021 19: 15
          Quote: agond
          About the first 600m this is the limiting depth, most of the trip takes place at much shallower depths and with a hull diameter of 13m and a nuclear submarine length of 160m, surface disturbance will take place up to depths of 100-150m, of course, much depends on the state of the ocean waves, but if calm during the day or at night it makes no difference , will definitely be found. , the surface perturbation creates the volume of the boat, and it is large, for example, 20000 m3 and the speed of the course, so there is only one way out - it is necessary to reduce the size.

          First you need to at least understand where this submarine is located in the endless expanses of seas and oceans.
          And so, yes. If you know in terms of current teachings that it should be somewhere here, in the squares, then you can also find out, applying all the forces and means for this.
          1. +6
            18 May 2021 10: 33
            Quote: DED_peer_DED

            First you need to at least understand where this submarine is located in the endless expanses of seas and oceans.
            And so, yes. If you know in terms of current teachings that it should be somewhere here, in the squares, then you can also find out, applying all the forces and means for this.


            A boat at sea doesn't come out of nowhere.
            She is not a "spherical horse in a vacuum".
            Her exits are monitored.
            According to the hydrology of the seas, the presence and thickness of ice, potential BS regions are determined.
            Accordingly, the search circle is noticeably narrowed down to the level of detection during the search.
            And the Sossus and Surtass systems have not been canceled. They still work and are only developing and modernizing. And all sorts of Maryatta are quite "developed" in terms of analyzing the underwater situation ...

            No one will send SSBNs on duty at the equator in the Indian Ocean.
            For this reduces the potential, makes the transition in months and can technically be extremely problematic.
          2. +1
            18 May 2021 12: 03
            First you need to at least understand where this submarine is located in the endless expanses of seas and oceans.


            One of these days an article will be published about it
        2. +8
          17 May 2021 22: 10
          How many have walked the seas and always wanted to see calm in the sea-ocean, but the trouble is, so rarely did it succeed. And if the boat managed to leave the base without a tail, further search in the ocean is not an easy task.
          1. -2
            19 May 2021 14: 06
            further search in the ocean is not an easy task.


            Quite simple. An article about it will be released one of these days.
        3. +1
          19 May 2021 09: 09
          Yeah, well, if it's calm, if the Poseidon is flying in this place and the diving depth is less than 100m. Doesn't it seem that much if?
      2. +6
        17 May 2021 19: 07
        And where are such depths in the Northern Fleet? And how much to cut to them?
        1. ANB
          +1
          17 May 2021 23: 24
          ... And where are such depths in the Northern Fleet?

          Right. All at the Pacific Fleet. There are sufficient depths. :)
      3. +1
        17 May 2021 22: 17
        Semyonov. "Non-tradition"
      4. 0
        18 May 2021 08: 22
        This will be done by aviation.
  4. -1
    17 May 2021 18: 49
    Article plus! Submariners are being set up in such a hurry.
    1. +6
      17 May 2021 18: 59
      In a hurry ... they did it for 12 years and did not finish it.
      1. +4
        17 May 2021 19: 22
        Another two kopecks on the issue of water surface disturbances caused by the movement of the submarine, it is more correct to say the rise of the water surface, this rise for large boats can be noticeable even with the naked eye, because the water does not compress, it has nowhere to go except to rise above the hull of the boat up an example, analogy, with an underwater explosion is observed a water column is always directed upward (regardless of the excitement), if a laser scanning of the relief of the ocean surface is carried out from an airplane or satellite, then the depth of detection of boats will surprise many, while the length of the "hill" of water rise will be equal to the length of the boat and even one only this feature can be used to identify a useful signal, say, from the excitement of a storm
        1. 0
          17 May 2021 22: 12
          No analogy can be drawn here. So I imagine - the boat is going at a depth, and above it there is a hump of water in nine stories, so what?
          1. +2
            18 May 2021 10: 35
            Quote: Stepan S
            No analogy can be drawn here. So I imagine - the boat is going at a depth, and above it there is a hump of water in nine stories, so what?


            Certainly not 9 floors ...
            But a hump of 12 cm is quite a reality - and it is tracked.
            1. 0
              19 May 2021 22: 33
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Quote: Stepan S
              No analogy can be drawn here. So I imagine - the boat is going at a depth, and above it there is a hump of water in nine stories, so what?


              Certainly not 9 floors ...
              But a hump of 12 cm is quite a reality - and it is tracked.


              An interesting coincidence is possible here. The "hump" will depend not only on the size of the submarine, but also on the speed of its movement. It is logical - the slower the submarine moves, the more time the water will "spread" without unmasking signs.

              At the same time, at 885 (M) there is a screw and not a water cannon. The advantages of a water jet are high speed and low noise. But if one of the main reasons for the "hump" is high speed, then in order not to create it, and to avoid detection by ASW aircraft, you still have to go at low speed. Maybe that's why the water cannon was not installed on 885 (M)?
              1. +1
                20 May 2021 11: 10
                Quote: AVM
                Quote: SovAr238A
                Quote: Stepan S
                No analogy can be drawn here. So I imagine - the boat is going at a depth, and above it there is a hump of water in nine stories, so what?


                Certainly not 9 floors ...
                But a hump of 12 cm is quite a reality - and it is tracked.


                An interesting coincidence is possible here. The "hump" will depend not only on the size of the submarine, but also on the speed of its movement. It is logical - the slower the submarine moves, the more time the water will "spread" without unmasking signs.

                At the same time, at 885 (M) there is a screw and not a water cannon. The advantages of a water jet are high speed and low noise. But if one of the main reasons for the "hump" is high speed, then in order not to create it, and to avoid detection by ASW aircraft, you still have to go at low speed. Maybe that's why the water cannon was not installed on 885 (M)?


                The hump is detected only by means of airborne submarines, on the topic of satellite monitoring - this is not yet resolvable. Perhaps in 20 years they will be able to track them via satellite.
                The desire to exclude the presence of a hump at the expense of the loss of combat capabilities - you should not think so.

                After all, Ash's task is to protect their SSBNs, to track enemy SSBNs and submarines.
                "Hunter" in one word.
                And a slow-moving hunter is a bad hunter.
                His lot is only an "ambush".
                It is impossible to track a much faster (at the same noise level) target for a long time and unnoticed. In 30-40 minutes after possible detection, it will simply go beyond the reach of the SAC, simply due to its low-noise speed, which is 3 times higher.
        2. ANB
          +4
          17 May 2021 23: 28
          ... she has nowhere to go except to rise above the hull of the boat

          So there is a lot of space on the sides.
          The ocean is big, but water is liquid and it flows. :)
          Everything is somewhat more complicated and strongly depends on the speed, immersion depth, shape and cover of the hull.
          PS. I remember in TM there was an article about testing a "whale skin" type coating. And where did that go?
  5. -2
    17 May 2021 19: 17
    The absence of a water cannon (typical for all modern nuclear-powered submarines) on the AICR "Kazan" unambiguously indicates the presence of a significant lag behind the AICR project 885 (M) from modern submarines of the US Navy, Great Britain and France in stealth. First of all - by the value of low-noise speed.

    I didn't even read further about the calculations and statements of an authoritative specialist. hi
    1. +1
      17 May 2021 19: 39
      And what do you think is better than a propeller water jet?
      1. -11
        17 May 2021 23: 14
        here it is important not what is better, but how it is done.
        and "ash" surpassed western boats in terms of low noise in terms of the sum of factors.
        1. +6
          18 May 2021 08: 25
          And also on the laudatory ores in our media
          1. 0
            19 May 2021 13: 53
            what are yours?
            I don’t read the media and I don’t watch TV and I don’t advise you.
            it is better to read quiet literature.
            1. +1
              19 May 2021 15: 14
              Is the primer a technical literature?, But even it is written with "e"
              1. -1
                19 May 2021 21: 06
                for you through "and", through "e" this is for specialists.
                The primer is already the level of an academician)))
        2. 0
          18 May 2021 12: 05
          And nothing that a low-speed, large-diameter propeller has very good visibility in the low-frequency range? It is our SACs who do not take it, and it seems like it is silent, while the Western ones normally detect everything.
          1. +1
            18 May 2021 17: 59
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            It is our SACs who do not take it, and it seems to be silent, while the western ones normally detect everything.

            It's like the situation with ekranoplanes: our naval air defense based on shipborne radars sees them only after leaving the radio horizon (30-50 km at working altitudes of the ekranoplan) - that's why it is considered unobtrusive in our country. And the fact that the enemy's radars are hanging in the air (AWACS + base patrolmen) and due to this they see targets on MV and PMV much further - they try not to mention this. smile
          2. -2
            19 May 2021 13: 52
            discover what? ...
            oh poor little girls, then we ... everything is lost and then they will kill us all ...
            in short everything we have is shit and we need to give up and the faster the better)))
            1. +2
              19 May 2021 14: 05
              discover what? ...


              Discover Ash-M

              oh poor little girls, then we ... everything is lost and then they will kill us all ...


              Well, like yes. And all of them. Even those who are not on Ash.

              in short everything we have is shit and we need to give up and the faster the better)))


              It is necessary to prepare for war, not parades, and build submarines for battle, and not to be.
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    2. 0
      18 May 2021 12: 12
      Essentially, there is nothing to answer, right?
  6. -1
    17 May 2021 19: 20
    Another nonsense that is easier to carry than a log.
    1. -2
      18 May 2021 12: 05
      Are you bombing from the truth?
      1. -1
        18 May 2021 22: 22
        Each has its own ... truth.
        1. +1
          19 May 2021 14: 01
          Not. Not your own. The boat can either fight against a potential enemy or not.
          This one is not.
          1. 0
            2 June 2021 10: 33
            A specialist in the field of nuclear submarines?
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. -1
    17 May 2021 20: 24
    ... - How will submarines with the dimensions of "Kazan" and "Severodvinsk" operate there?

    Hmm, and why should they act there?))))) But seriously, I agree. Bigger boats are needed in the ice. Otherwise, the ice will not be pushed through ...
    1. +3
      18 May 2021 12: 07
      And if the war, eh? What are you going to do at the Northern Fleet? You, like kittens, will flood everyone.
      This is the moment I could never understand - well, the dealers from the industrial process are sawing on orders, but why are those who will be sent to slaughter on these boats drowning for all this trash? How so?
  9. 0
    17 May 2021 20: 45
    Maxim, is it really possible to change the noise parameters on this type of boats downward? That is, if you put a water cannon on the next boat, and change the propeller for a water cannon on the ready ones?
  10. +3
    17 May 2021 21: 04
    If we choose between two options: a nuclear submarine operating in the Navy with not quite advanced weapons, or the same nuclear submarine at the wall of the shipyard has been waiting for a new complex of weapons for years?

    I am for the first option!
  11. 0
    17 May 2021 21: 27
    ... By the way, here's what I thought: why hasn't anyone thought of masking the sonar signal under the location sounds of any marine life - belugas or narwhals or some other dolphin whale? Of course, those that live in these waters.
    It would seem that there are absolutely no problems to record an extensive library of such music and use it for location.
    1. +1
      18 May 2021 00: 08
      You've probably watched the movie Raise Perescope recently? There, an acoustician named Sonar imitated the sounds of mating games of whales, and Lentils made biological sounds in the galley. laughing lol good
      My favorite movie about American submariners with a tattoo on their hairstyles.
      1. +1
        18 May 2021 17: 58
        Quote: Bearded
        You've probably watched the movie Raise Perescope recently? There, an acoustician named Sonar imitated the sounds of mating games of whales. laughing lol good


        Quote: Bearded
        and Lentils were making biological sounds in the galley. laughing lol good

    2. +1
      18 May 2021 00: 11
      Such shoals worn at high speeds up to 300 m under water will cause suspicion. wassat
    3. +1
      18 May 2021 12: 14
      It will not work, the active message must be in a certain frequency range and have sufficient power.
  12. -10
    17 May 2021 21: 49
    Well, if the author considers our Yaseni-M to be bad, then what can we say about the technologically more backward Virginias. Due to the insufficient level of automation of American Virginias, their crew is twice as large as our Kazan nuclear submarine, and, moreover, Virginia is several times more expensive.
    Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuxejJPIj80
    1. +7
      17 May 2021 22: 32
      Come on, tell us about the technologically more backward ones ...
      First, manufacturability should not be confused with technicality.
      Manufacturability - ease of production. Like PPS or T-34, this is manufacturability.

      Secondly. They are quieter, smaller, the SAC is more powerful, the equipment is all smaller and more powerful two or three times, while they have considerable weapons. And they are built in batches and in several years.
      Let them stand at least like a cast-iron bridge, and the economy does not care at all.
      1. -1
        19 May 2021 00: 29
        Quote: Devil13
        Come on, tell us about the technologically more backward ones ...
        First, manufacturability should not be confused with technicality.
        Manufacturability - ease of production.

        It is more technologically advanced. In the open press, its cost is estimated at 41-47 billion rubles. This is every three times less than the cost of Virginia, which is worth about $ 2 billion.
    2. +2
      18 May 2021 12: 08
      Are you healthy, citizen? For the Americans, the number of crews is determined by the necessary forces to fight for survivability, and then automation is adjusted to this number to reduce the price.

      "Virginia" will devour Ash-M without choking, if that.
      1. +1
        19 May 2021 00: 33
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Are you healthy, citizen? For the Americans, the number of crews is determined by the necessary forces to fight for survivability, and then automation is adjusted to this number to reduce the price.

        And among the Russians, the level of automation allows them to increase survivability and, due to this, reduce the number of crews.
        The difference in approaches.
        1. 0
          19 May 2021 14: 02
          Doesn't allow. Stop believing in fairy tales.
        2. +1
          19 May 2021 15: 35
          I had a conversation with the gene. designer Kovalev in compartment 1 of 667 BDRM. When I complained to him about the location of the VVD supply valve in the hold of the compartment, and not on the ceiling, as in previous projects. To my question: in case of water entering, I will have to dive into the hold in order to open this valve, he replied that the valve is remotely controlled, to which I replied: in an accident, the automation fails first of all. Kovalev promised to resolve this issue
  13. +5
    17 May 2021 22: 23
    It is difficult to comment on such a detailed article, because none of us has any idea about the author's awareness of the existing problems. And all conclusions are based on assumptions and on the fact that we have all seen a propeller, not a water cannon. We do not know about the effectiveness of weapons, systems, or the advantages of certain solutions due to objective reasons. The author does not know about this either.
    1. 0
      18 May 2021 00: 10
      The author knows this topic and is competent in this matter.
      1. +1
        19 May 2021 16: 49
        Alas, competence does not mean objectivity
    2. +5
      18 May 2021 08: 16
      One of the reasons for the delay in the delivery of Kazan was the failure of the noise test. Donskoy heard her perfectly during trials and IPC from security. Therefore, they finished with a file and changed the screws
  14. +6
    17 May 2021 22: 29
    1. Thanks for the article.
    2. Not a single modernization program would give an analogue. Would the loaves suddenly be made quieter, would they give the gas a full nose? Unlikely.
    3. This is a missile fucking submarine. Such crap will be big, whatever one may say, it is not for you to gurgle with tomahawks. This also needs to be taken into account, or we will solve problems with ineffective means. Similar to the problems listed above.
    4. There is a nuance. Over the past twenty years, how many attack boats have entered the fleet? Not a diesel engine, but at least a purely nuclear torpedo? That's it ...
    If the industry is given people, people and total control is introduced without complicating their work with sticks in the wheels and delirium, and checking the purchase prices, then the price of projects will decrease ten times. Minimum. And the speed of construction will increase. Every five.
    But while all this is not there, and they are doing a gesheft, not a cruiser, the fleet needs at least something, at least somehow, and urgently.
    So the adoption of Kazan is more of a holiday.
    Then screw on anti-torpedoes or torpedo norms, a water cannon, and provide exercises - not so difficult, it is possible. It's worse when we build and accept boats for 10 years ... Although all these are the consequences of the same thing.
    Speaking about the necessary small-sized boat - a garbage question, we need a 971 one-and-a-half-hull, with automation and Lyra's speeds and maneuverability, with full plugging on the intake side, and all the possibilities for camouflage.
  15. +1
    18 May 2021 02: 22
    There is no need to invent anything, nature has invented everything. For the aquatic environment, three types of bodies are wind-like, leaf-like, and cambolo-like. The fastest fish have a leaf-like shape, all the camboloids live in the bottom layer. So you calculate either shallow water or speed. Although the breeze shape is more versatile, it is not ideal.
  16. -1
    18 May 2021 09: 06
    The main thing is to report to the chief. And there at least the grass does not grow. Not their own children will fight on it.
  17. -3
    18 May 2021 09: 56
    "A real enemy in a real war." What kind of real war are we talking about? I'm afraid that in a real war it will no longer matter under what number you die. The result will be the same for everyone.
    1. +2
      18 May 2021 12: 09
      This is not true.
  18. 0
    18 May 2021 10: 13
    There is even no point in non-professionals (including me) to discuss such issues. And there is no sense for professionals who have no direct relation to them either. For here you must first of all own information, and not guess on the coffee grounds.
    On "airborne" TA - shooting from them at full speed is impossible in principle. That is why they were not used on Soviet submarines, although they perfectly understood why the Americans were using them.
    It is very interesting to counter-torpedo, but "the problem of anti-tank equipment lies in the area of ​​control center" (S) Kuzin-Nikolsky. Even a submarine will not always detect an attacking torpedo so quickly, far and accurately as to have time to fire an anti-torpedo at it.
    Severodvinsk is an attempt to combine business with pleasure. "Missile-torpedo" boat with a cruise missile carrier. In the displacement of Varshavyanka, a noticeable amount of UVP for the PKR-KR will definitely not fit. As well as inside the boat itself. And the large antenna of the GAC will not fit either. It is necessary to increase the working depth of immersion for nuclear-powered submarines and resolve the issue of the submerged range for non-nuclear submarines.
    1. +1
      18 May 2021 12: 11
      Even a submarine will not always detect an attacking torpedo so quickly, far and accurately as to have time to fire an anti-torpedo at it.


      Especially a moped like the Mk48.
      In addition, there are also non-acoustic detection tools.
      1. 0
        16 June 2021 12: 36
        Non-acoustic means of detecting torpedoes - what are they? This "moped" is quite quiet, quieter than other "electric trains".
  19. kig
    -1
    18 May 2021 11: 18
    We have absolutely insufficient test statistics
    - what if there is such reliability and such qualities that one test, say, one torpedo of each type per year / for each fleet is quite enough? And let us start testing continuously - the enemy will decide that we are continuously eliminating shortcomings and will not eliminate them in any way. recourse
  20. +3
    18 May 2021 11: 19
    hmm, it's all sad and the boat turns out to be another expensive toy without real combat capability.
    Isn't it easier to make a project out of Borey (for example, Borey-K) purely for cruise missiles (100-180 pieces), and instead of ash, to cut down a torpedo hunter with a displacement of 5k tons.
    although it is understandable. the current boat is expensive, pretentious and suits everyone in their pockets, ash tree stump.
  21. The comment was deleted.
  22. +6
    18 May 2021 12: 54
    We worked on security systems for a Very Serious Customer. Back in the 90s, such work began. In those days, there was just a process of introducing modern security systems in the vastness of our once immense. Robotic video complexes, perimeter security with detectors of different operating principles, etc., etc. My team has developed standard methods for protecting the perimeters of small and medium-sized objects for the Customer.
    The systems worked and worked well, but there was only one problem. For the installation of such systems, qualified personnel and high-quality equipment are required. As a result of this approach to the assembly of objects, safety was ensured at a very high level.
    However, this disturbed the dear Customer. Than? You see, the pros are expensive. But God be with him, money is not a problem for him. Pros are value. And here was the most ambush. After all, how did you want that? I wanted to get all the profit myself. Register firms, receive orders for them, hire employees as cheaply as possible, transferring money to themselves.
    In general, there was a choice - security or a tightly packed pocket. Do you understand, yes?) In general, Very Dear Customer ... reduced safety requirements. Now its objects are almost transparent. Lights are flashing, computerized screens are on, commissions are impressed ... there is virtually no security. There is no problem to go to any of their objects, with minimal skill and some knowledge. Remember the secret walkie-talkies flooded? Not their object, but the approach is the same.
    But affiliated offices tirelessly pump rivers of money into the pocket of the management. Everyone is happy. What about security? Who needs it when accounts are replenished! In ALL of our industry, in the entire economy, in all sectors, the situation is identical. We only have blinking bulbs. there is nothing behind them. Nothing. Such a system was invented and built for us. The culture of a beautiful light bulb and someone's plump bills ...
    1. Loh
      0
      18 May 2021 16: 24
      Dear Customer ... reduced safety requirements. His objects are now almost transparent. Lights are flashing, computerized screens are on, commissions are impressed ... there is virtually no security. There is no problem to enter any of their objects, with minimal skill and some knowledge. Remember the secret walkie-talkies flooded? Not their object, but the approach is the same.
      A question from the layman: the first departments were removed from the enterprises, if they return and add the function of control of technical security means with the right to influence the management of the enterprise in case of a violation, will this be an effective incentive for the management of the enterprise?
      1. +1
        18 May 2021 17: 50
        In order to build boats faster and in order for them to be in the required quantity and to be unobtrusive, one should first of all abandon their double-hull design, for reasons
        1 although the outer hull is called light, in fact, the weight of its structures is close to the weight of a strong hull (excluding strong bulkheads between compartments, by the way, our boats have the most compartments, which generally complicates the operation of boats), for reference, the outer surface area of ​​a light hull is 20 -30% more than durable and at the same time all of it is covered with a layer of rubber.
        2, the entire structure of the light hull has negative buoyancy, the mass of which pulls the boat to the bottom, therefore, to ensure zero buoyancy, the designers have to increase the internal volume of the strong hull, naturally, the total mass of the entire boat increases again.
        3 structures of the outer light hull have their own "resonant" vibration frequency, the overall noise spectrum of the boat hulls expands in comparison with the single-hull scheme.
        4 Despite the large buoyancy, our double-hulled boats cannot float in ice without the risk of serious damage to the light hull.
        5, the double-hull scheme increases the size of the boat without an adequate increase in ammunition, a vivid example of Varshavyanka, it will be very clear if we compare how many weapons are per one ton of underwater displacement in different boats of different countries at different times.
      2. 0
        18 May 2021 18: 29
        No, it will not. Alas. Under the USSR, the first departments represented the defense of OUR country. Our common country. Their effective work was based on the fact that everyone voluntarily cooperated with them, tried. And now? This will be another loot extractor. The owners of the enterprises pay the "controlling" bodies for the positive results of inspections, licenses, and various kinds of permits. It's all.
        Remember - containers with thousands of tons of solarium spilled? The owner paid for the inspection of Rostekhnadzor. No one emptied the containers, steamed, purged, and then did not take any measurements. They just allocated some money for a bribe. We solved the issue. Loot triumphs over evil. And it just faded ... The same thing, exactly the same, will be with the first departments.
        They will be given money for bribes, and their workers will take that money. You understand. We no longer have OUR country, It is not ours. There is no common goal, but there is an example to imitate him. How did the people at the top do? They betrayed and robbed the country they were supposed to serve. And they blinded another, for themselves. In which they behave in exactly the same way - they rob this one, each other's soul as much as they can. This means that we should do it. As leaders, as the topmost, they are the winners. And to their "victories", to their position, they came to absolutely not honest work! That's what everyone is doing now, whoever can. Law of nature. Do as the most successful.
        Why am I all this? You see, an employee of the first department on his own in the same security systems will not figure it out for anything. He needs decades of experience in security systems, and not paper experience, but real, comprehensive, in order to at least understand where the holes are. Plus, he still has areas where you also need to thoroughly understand, but at least the same industrial safety. A person, of course, can become such a pro. But in the first section he will then have nothing to do) Not his level, and there can be about fifty such people per country.
        So voluntary cooperation of specialists is needed. Many of whom do not even work for the enterprise. Why should these specialists cooperate in the current conditions? For what? Such cooperation will certainly come into conflict with the main goal of today's life - to grab more, and do not care about everything else. People will not cooperate with the first departments. And their employees will not need it. Who will bribe them if they do their job honestly?
        Nothing will come of it, alas ...
        1. 0
          18 May 2021 20: 13
          Quote: Mikhail3
          You see, an employee of the first department on his own in the same security systems will not figure it out for anything. He needs to have decades of experience in security systems, and not paper experience, but real, comprehensive, in order to at least understand where the holes are

          There are many different ways,
          1 example, well, let's say everyone knows about the uprising of Spartacus in ancient Rome, and what happened then who remembers?, And then it was like this, there is no money in the treasury of cities and Rome itself, they plundered on the sly, and the consul Krasus finds a simple solution to pay everyone who will report about the fact of embezzlement half the value of the criminal's property and a miracle happened
          Example 2 In 1933, on the basis of the Moscow GIRD and the Leningrad Gas Dynamic Laboratory (GDL), the Jet Research Institute of the NK VMD USSR was created under the leadership of I. T. Kleymenov. Korolev was his deputy, and already, in 1934, he wrote a letter to the authorities of the USSR, outlining the facts of shortcomings in the scientific activities of the institute known to him, and other employees of the institute were not indifferent, they wrote similar letters, that is, they constantly went to the authorities information from people who know the subject of their scientific activities, naturally the authorities were forced to check the information, but since the investigators did not understand the theory of jet propulsion, specialized experts were involved, as a result, Korolev, 1938 was arrested and convicted on the basis of the results of two expert commissions with the participation of employees of the institute ... and then the flaws were eliminated and again a miracle, the rockets flew into space
          Conclusion, if informants are encouraged (as is customary in developed countries), then there will be fewer shoals and abuses, for example, there is nothing bad for the buyer if one of the store sellers does not remain silent, but informs the SES about the facts of the sale of rotten meat.
          1. 0
            19 May 2021 08: 54
            Well yes. Something needs to be done. And for this you need to know something. For example, Korolev squandered the money that was at his personal disposal on the theory of interplanetary flights, although they have not yet risen above a couple of kilometers there. And when a government commission demanded tests of what he had designed, Korolyov assembled a rocket and fired. Since he did not deal with a boring military rocket at all (did not correspond to his dreams), the rocket spun on their dugout, miraculously not killing the Korolyov himself, the entire commission and dugout cockroaches. Precisely for this, for the destruction of folk funds for idiotic projects, Korolev and villages.
            Management of knowledge-intensive industries and science itself cannot be based on the fact that the rulers themselves must literally understand everything. The fact that the party clerks got into the showdown of scientists, not understanding an ear or a snout in them (instead of imprisoning for anonymous letters without examining scientific merits), and became the reason that the huge Soviet science had such a low practical output.
            Alas, denunciations will not save the country)
  23. +2
    19 May 2021 00: 15
    That is honestly a big plus for the author, and unfortunately people are adequate and, even more so, those who are responsible do not often read what ... it is a pity that sincerity. God grant you health and that at least
  24. 0
    19 May 2021 19: 22
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Learn. This is how the Malachite people work.
    Moreover, for the sake of the Ash, the entire modernization program of old submarines was cut down.

    In this case, it is by no means possible to entrust the development of the 5th generation nuclear submarine to the Malakhit Design Bureau.
    Submarine modernization program of which project? 971 (Malachite)? 949 (Ruby)? With an amateurish view, the problems of military ship repair are multifaceted: finances, organization, etc.

    Sometimes comments are more interesting than the article itself, under which they are left.)
    1. +2
      19 May 2021 21: 21
      https://vz.ru/society/2020/9/3/1058182.html

      The goal of the movement was to cut money on the Ash.
      1. 0
        21 May 2021 13: 01
        Quote: wolf46
        With an amateurish view, the problems of military ship repair are multifaceted: finances, organization, etc.

        ...., any layman can compare well-known data for example
        Borey - surface 14720t. underwater 24000 tons rockets 16 pcs.
        that is, we have 1 rocket for 1500 tons of displacement
        Ohio - surface 16746 tons submarine 18750 tons missiles 24 pcs.
        that is, they have 1 rocket for 781 tons of displacement
        we divide our 1500 tons, into theirs 781 tons, and we see that the technical perfection in the number of missiles per ton of displacement in their Ohio exceeds our Borei, by 1.92 times
        Now let's compare the total weight thrown by the Trident and Bulava missiles.
        Trident 2.800 kg x 24pcs = 64000 kg
        Mace 1150kg x 16 pcs = 18900 kg,
        we see that they have a total throw-weight of warheads 3.39 times more than ours
        (of course, comparison without taking into account the range, but this is not important)
        Comparing overall technical excellence in combination with missiles
        Ohio - 18750 tons of displacement divided by the throw weight 64tg = 293 tons
        Borey - 24000t. the displacement is divided by the throw weight 18.9t = 1270 t
        we see that the technical perfection in terms of the mass of dropped warheads per ton of displacement of the missile carrier from our Borey is 4.33 times worse than that of Ohio !!!
        (1270t divided by 293t = 4.33)