Apache Longbow for Indian Air Force

The contract for the supply of combat helicopters for the needs of the Indian Air Force ended in victory for the American company Boeing, which will deliver Apache Longbow attack helicopters to the country of 22. According to experts, the sale of this type of weapon will not change the balance of power in the region. The amount of the transaction for the sale of helicopters, spare parts for them, as well as weapons systems is estimated to be at least 1,2 billion. The execution of this contract will deal with American companies: Boeing, Lockheed Martin, General Electric and Raytheon. The American Indian who won the competition stole the victory from the Russian attack helicopter Mi-28H “Night Hunter”.

The tender for the supply of 22 attack helicopters for the needs of the Air Force, the Indian Ministry of Defense announced at the beginning of 2009. In early July, 2010, it became known that the only bidders were the American Apache Longbow and the Russian Mi-28H “Night Hunter”. In addition to them, AgustaWestland and Eurocopter companies that presented A129 Mangusta and EC665 Tiger respectively participated in the tender. However, these companies came out of the tender, explaining his decision by not having time to prepare their helicopters for testing. Before 2009, the American company Bell Helicopter with its AH-1Z Viper helicopter also participated in the tender announced by India. However, the company came out of the tender, explaining that AH-1Z does not yet have an assessment of readiness for combat use.

Under the terms of the contract, India expected to receive a helicopter, the mass of which was to be at least 2 500 kg. The helicopter had to have an 2 engine, high maneuverability and speed, as well as modern anti-tank weapons, the ability to install a turret gun of caliber from 20-mm or more, as well as the ability to shoot 70-mm missiles. In addition, the attack helicopter had to be able to use missiles with an autonomous guidance system with a target range of at least 7 km. In order to perform tasks efficiently in the conditions of modern combat operations, it was required that the helicopter could be used in the desert terrain and high mountains, in any weather conditions and be equipped with a modern set of means for conducting electronic warfare. A condition was also made about the presence of a receiver informing the crew about the radar exposure of the helicopter.

AH-64D Apache Longbow

The contract for the supply of attack helicopter AH-64D "Apache Longbow" will be implemented through a special US program of military assistance to foreign countries FMS (Foreign Military Sales). Its value is estimated at 1,2 billion. The agreement provides for the supply of Indian Air Force 22 helicopters, from 4 to 6 spare engines, as well as the AN / APG-12 Longbow 78 radar. 245 Stinger I-92H air-to-air missiles and air-to-surface guided missiles are on the list of aviation armaments: AGN-542 AGM-114R-3 AGM and 812 AGM AGM-114L- 3 Longbow Hellfire.

According to Indian representatives, the cost of helicopters is estimated at around 650-700 million dollars, while the cost of spare engines, radars and weapons is estimated at 450-500 million dollars. These data were published in the weekly all-Russian newspaper "Military Industrial Courier". Earlier in the media there was information that the amount of the contract announced by India is estimated at 1,4 billion dollars and according to its conditions, India should also receive 50 T700-GE-701D engines manufactured by General Electric, 12 interferometric radar AN / APR-48A and 12 radar AN / APG-78.

India currently holds the 4th place in the world in terms of the number of regular armed forces. At the same time, the military-political leadership of this state expects to transform the country's air force and air defense into well-balanced types of armed forces that will be able to support the actions of the ground forces and fleet, as well as striking at important objects located in the depths of the enemy’s defense and conducting a successful confrontation with all modern air attack equipment. It was within the framework of these transformations that a competition was announced for the supply of the country's air force with the most advanced attack helicopters.

Officials of the Indian military leadership note that the Apaches are intended to replace the Indian fleet of obsolete attack helicopters of another Soviet or Russian assembly. It is about replacing the Mi-24 and Mi-35, which will be withdrawn from the Indian Air Force. According to the American side, the Apache Longbow AH-64D helicopters, after a certain period of operation in the air force, can also be purchased for the Indian ground forces, where they will be part of the army corps aviation, which is used for air support of infantry and armored formations on the battlefield.

Mi-28N

Fully negotiations on the preparation of a contract for the supply of helicopters should be completed in the 2012 year, and the agreement itself will need to be signed in the current fiscal year, that is, before March 2013. India’s helicopter shipments will be launched 36 months after signing the contract and will have to be completed within 18-24 months. Based on this, if the contract is signed at the beginning of 2013 of the year, India will receive Apache no earlier than 2018 of the year.

It should be noted that the choice of the Indian side of the American car does not detract from the merits of the Russian Mi-28H helicopter. At present, Roeboronexport and the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FS VTS) are receiving applications from abroad for the delivery of an export version of this attack helicopter, the Mi-28НЭ. The number of these applications began to increase, after the machine was recommended for adoption by the Russian army in October 2009. According to Anatoly Isaikin, director of Rosoboronexport, a Mi-28HE attack helicopter in the near future could significantly strengthen Russia's position on the global market for helicopters. According to the State Armaments Program calculated up to 2020, about 200 Mi-28Н helicopters will be delivered to the Russian Armed Forces. In 2012, the military should get 20 of such machines. In addition, Rostvertol is preparing to launch the Mi-28UB combat training model.

AH-64D Apache Longbow

Helicopter AH-64D Longbow was created on the basis of the attack helicopter AH-64 and is equipped with a characteristic millimeter-wave nadvtulochnaya radar. Translated from the English Longbow means long-range bow. A distinctive feature of the AH-64D helicopter from its earlier counterparts are the larger compartments of electronic equipment (avionics) located along the sides of the lower fuselage, as well as the already mentioned round nadrotorny container with Longbow radar. That radar is a key feature of this machine.

Longbow millimeter-wave radar, whose cost is estimated at 2 million dollars, carries out work in 3-x modes: ground targets (NC), air targets (VTs) and terrain tracking mode (ORM). In the ground targets mode, the radar is able to display the sector in 45 degrees (left-right from the flight direction) on the crew displays. Within this area, the area of ​​which may be up to 54 square. km at a distance of 10 km. The radar is capable of automatically recognizing and qualifying up to 256 different targets. At the same time, he determines the type of targets: tracked or wheeled vehicles, helicopters, air defense weapons or enemy aircraft.

AH-64D Apache Longbow

The radio-frequency passive radar (interferometer) located directly under the radar is engaged in fixing radiating objects (ie, radar air defense systems). At the same time, the most dangerous targets are automatically selected (various types of anti-aircraft weapons) that appear on the display of the fire control system and are intended for primary destruction. In the ORM mode, the helicopter radar allows you to make a blind flight at extremely low altitude (in rain, fog, etc., when infrared means of observation are ineffective). In order not to "fill in" the screen with unnecessary information, only objects that are equal to or greater than the altitude are displayed on it. In CC mode, the radar has a circular view and is able to identify 3 types of targets: airplanes, helicopters and hovering helicopters. In this case, the pilot can combine the radar operation modes by simply switching the toggle switch. For example, when flying in ORM mode, it can search for ground targets.

The integrated fire control system (EMIS), in addition to the radar, includes the usual subsystems TADS, PNVS and FLIR. In case of bad weather conditions or outside the zone of visual contact, the radar is used for the purpose; weapons produced using the above laser and infrared tools. The AH-64D Longbow ISMO also provides new opportunities in the tactics of using a helicopter. For example, in the “capture target after launch” mode, it allows only one machine from the group to observe the targets and direct ATGMs at them, which the rest of the helicopters will launch from the shelters, being out of sight. Militery Technology magazine described the new EMIS as a qualitative leap in combat effectiveness: it increases helicopter survival by 7 times, and fire capabilities by 4 times, which consequently gives an increase in combat effectiveness 4х7 = 28 times.

Information sources:
-http: //vpk-news.ru/articles/9210
-http: //www.airwar.ru/enc/ah/ah64d.html
-http: //lenta.ru/news/2010/12/29/apache/
-http: //ru.wikipedia.org/

Comments

[Civil]

Yeah, it’s just the sub-muzzle radar and the SLA that have become, so to speak, stumbling blocks for our Indian customers ...

[Zerstorer]

Quote: Civil

Yeah, it’s just the sub-muzzle radar and the SLA that have become, so to speak, stumbling blocks for our Indian customers ...

Can be more. And then I relatively recently began to be interested in arms trading.)

[black_eagle]

And the fact that Mi-28N helicopters are supplied to the troops without a sub-radar radar for themselves is such garbage, it’s like H, but it’s not nightly ((((

[Rustam]

a super-muzzle radar is responsible for flights at extremely low altitudes with an envelope of terrain, as planned

and so they can act at night all and without radar for this

[black_eagle]

The locator is responsible for finding targets, on an attack helicopter naturally against the background of the earth, so at night it is just as needed to launch the same guided missiles, without a locator only NURSs and a cannon, but you won’t be able to disperse these tanks. Without a locator, only in visual mode, and this is the last century

[Civil]

Here's another info:

The representative of the Russian Air Force, in turn, explained to Izvestia that the main problem of the Mi-28 before the design change in 2011 was the main gearbox that rotates the main screw. When working for more than two hours, it overheated, which led to the stop of the screw. In addition, according to the military, the designers of Rostvertol, which produces a helicopter, for a long time could not debug the operation of all on-board electronic systems.

- The Mi-28 had problems with the use of guided missiles.

[Passing]

Quote: Zerstorer

Can be more.

Here's what the Western media say:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/asd_11_08_2011_05-01-39


1208.xml

Defense ministry sources reveal that differences in performance between the two helicopters was so great that the IAF's case was difficult to question. The final contract, a direct commercial sale, could be worth $ 1.5 billion. An IAF trial team member, who asked not to be named, says, “The Apache scored consistently over Mi-28 in several key operational criteria. Broadly, these fell under the categories of electronic warfare, survivability, situational awareness in the cockpit, night-fighting capabilities, sensor efficacy and weapons. The helicopter was also found to be far more maneuverable. We worked directly with Boeing and the US Army to test this helicopter. ”

Google translation:

Department of Defense sources indicate that the difference in performance between the two helicopters was so great that the IAF case was a difficult question (or rather “hard to question”). The final contract, direct commercial sales, could be $ 1,5 billion. An IAF court member, who asked not to be named, says: “Apache has scored consistently over the Mi-28 in several key operational criteria. In general, this falls under the categories of electronic warfare, survivability, cockpit situational awareness, night combat capability, effectiveness sensors and weapons. The helicopter was found to be much more maneuverable. We are working directly with Boeing and the US Army to test this helicopter. "

[nycsson]

It could not do without politics! It would be interesting to compare their performance characteristics!

[kotdavin4i]

Yes, the performance characteristics of the Apache are partially worse than that of the Mi-28N, BUT the Apache is a helicopter that has already been tested in battle more than once, it is in service with many countries, the longbow system also works with a bang (unlike the Russian "crossbow"). Although I am a supporter of Russian weapons, I think that the Indians did the right thing at the moment. They need a completely debugged and reliably showing themselves helicopter (friction with Pakistan and China) - which means they should have no doubt that in the event of hostilities, this technique will not let you down.

[black_eagle]

that’s what they would not say, but Apache’s LMS and its interface, so to speak, are much better in control than Mil

[Diesel]

IMHO, Tunguska will riddle this American city, but only on the road, and knocking this nonsense from 2-3 rounds of a large-caliber rifle is not a problem, all the same, booking at Apache is nothing compared to mi28 and mi24

[curious]

Watch videos on YouTube with Apache Hellfire working on armor, by the way Soviet, and everything will become clear to you right away. And on the approach a missile with a range of 16 km

[borisst64]

And I also can’t hear him in the front hemisphere (as they say, he didn’t check =))

[chocolateladku2006]

definitely the State Department. you only have that.

[Leisure]

The Indians made a good choice. Our helicopter during the competition has not even been accepted into service in the Russian Federation. No operational experience or combat use.

[curious]

I agree, unfortunately the MI-28 is not visible in Chechnya and Dagestan. Although this experience will by no means be indicative.

[ankh-andrej]

The car is good, why argue. Only now she will enter the Indian troops no earlier than 2018. By this time, we should have implemented a plan to rearm our own troops. Something the Indians have been dragging on for a very long time with their contracts and tenders. What the MMRCA alone is worth.

[DUTCH]

Undoubtedly, the best combat helicopter for today. There is still block3 he can control 2nd drones.

[Skiff]

Yes everything is correct, Apache has decade combat use, MI-28 raw helicopter, not run-in, I read that our helicopter did not go by many indicators about a dozen or more, I would like to know by what parameters, I think most likely electronics. I love and respect our technology but I want objectivity

[curious]

The long-suffering fate of MI-28 is a good indicator of our orientation towards solving problems on the battlefield. We grab onto fantastic projects without bringing to mind the really needed and relevant systems today

[DUTCH]

There is an old film "Birds of Fire". There Nicolas Cage on the Apache with a drug cortelemy is at war. Sean Young also plays there, a cool film, I advise very much!

[sasha127]

The helicopter is good. I don’t know what kind of vine he used to recommend himself for? But the Mi-28 took into account the combat experience of the Mi-24. The Mi-28 has more chances to survive in battle than the Apache, due to better armor protection. At the "Apache" the cabin of the crew is covered with abuse, and often it is absent altogether. The main emphasis is on the surprise and maneuverability of the helicopter. The cannon on the Apache M-230 was specially developed for it. it is a relatively light weapon weighing 54kg and has a rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute. The Mi-28 is equipped with a 2A42 cannon and weighs 301 kg, borrowed from the BMP-2. Minute volley M-230 - 147kg and minute volley 2A42 weighs 301kg. An army cannon is not as much of a contamination or "non-delegate" treatment as a specialized Aveceon cannon, moreover, it is less sensitive to barrel overheating when firing. Ksatate has repeatedly appeared in the press that the Apache cannon can only be fired in short bursts. The helicopters have an onboard defense system that is approximately the same in composition and capabilities, including spreaders of IR traps and dipole reflectors and receivers that warn of laser radar exposure. But the sighting and aerobatic system "Apache" is much more perfect. What a sin to hide here.

[Old skeptic]

Here's an interesting infa came across a year ago, the Apache pilot about the Apache and Afghanistan
Attention Quote
"Maintaining the Apache is not an easy task. Eight Apaches require 18 four-ton trucks, 7 trailers, 5 tankers, 3 forklift trucks, 2 motorcycles, 5 vans, an eight-ton truck and a fire engine.
Each hour of Apache flight costs £ 20000 and requires 32 man-hours of ground work. There are six highly qualified ground specialists for each pilot.
Preparing for takeoff means over a thousand keystrokes. In total, this takes thirty minutes, twenty-two of which the helicopter is already with its engines running. If you are in a hurry, you can catch up in fifteen. If you try even faster, then something will have to be turned on already in the air - without any confidence that it will work. In such a hurry, you can, for example, lose encrypted radio channels or pictures from an infrared camera. By comparison, the Chinook prepares to take off in five minutes. "

Apache pilot about Apache and Afghanistan
http://badnews.org.ru/news/pilot_apacha_ob_apache_i_afganistane/2011-01-16-6061

[Eraser]

Something he pounds, about 22 minutes, look here after 4 and a half minutes he is ready to take off.

[Old skeptic]

Quote: Eraser

If you are in a hurry, you can catch it in fifteen. If you try even faster, then something will have to be included in the air - without any certainty that it will work. With such a rush, you can, for example, lose encrypted radio channels or pictures from an infrared camera.

It is possible and faster but ...

It wasn’t written by me

[Eraser]

So I'm talking about the one who wrote and say. Maybe there is something with the translation, its 30 and 15 minutes are very similar to the state of readiness for departure, 3 and 2, respectively. Yes and 22 minutes, it’s not the engines that work there, but the auxiliary power unit .

[Su24]

So turned on engines and a rotating rotor are two different things.

[Raven]

I do not understand why Lidsky? Normal city (mine)

[Rustam]

not guys
The main problem of testing the Mi-28 in India in 2009 - before the design change in 2011, there was a main gearbox that rotates the main screw. When working for more than two hours, it overheated, which led to the stop of the screw. In addition, according to the military, the designers of Rostvertol, which produces a helicopter, for a long time could not debug the operation of all on-board electronic systems.

- The Mi-28 had problems with the use of guided missiles. Currently, all these technical flaws are already fixed. In 2011-2012, the Air Force of Russia already received fully operational vehicles
also problems with airborne radar tests have been going on since 2007 - laudations not heard
Naturally, why should they take a raw car when it’s been tested in battles in Iraq and Afghanistan and it’s far ahead in avionics, by the way, the latest version for the US Army has the ability to control American drones from a helicopter

I’m not regrettable, but at the moment the Apache is perfect
video of night use in afghanistan - yes to chechnya we would have such toys during the second company

[Pimply]

I will fully support it. In general, this video, despite the fact that I watched it several times, is inspiring. Very much.

[Passing]

Yes, without a MANPADS with a night branch there is little chance of partisanism, such a helicopter will fly in, and it will slowly extinguish fighters with inhumane meticulousness. I was especially shocked that Americans do not regret Hellfire for every Taliban! They’re crazy, they say that they don’t shoot sparrows from the cannon, but it turns out how.

[Old skeptic]

Is it a toy too expensive against partisans, and with the right military air defense what are its chances?

[Rustam]

no, not too much, if in Chechnya there were such people, how many hundreds of children could be saved and saved

[Rustam]

But they, like our precision munitions, do not spare !!! our warriors should learn

[Diesel]

IMHO, on such a heap it would be much easier and cheaper to work off with nurses, then finish off the gun

[Pimply]

There was a unit of their fighters nearby

[Pimply]

Not for everyone, but nonetheless. More honestly, the coordination of actions, the report, the requirement for permission to open fire are impressive. And also - the clarity of the image - when it is clearly visible: there are women with children, and here a couple of guys with RPGs

[Rustam]

Pimpy-pay attention to what resolution of the matrix is ​​at night, just look that they do not spare the missiles and it does not fly directly like ours, but from above !!!

Yes, we still have to catch up and catch up, of course the Apache with its things, the United States will never sell us

[Pimply]

Yes I saw. I'm mostly used to Israeli 8 pictures), but here is a separate topic.

About not selling - of course. Now matrices are purchased in Israel and France (if memory serves, matrices are made only by these three countries). There are some developments of your own - the question is, which ones and at what level. In the video below, the year of application is not clear.

[Rustam]

And now we compare the application with us
1-already progress at least some kind of thermal imagers appeared
2 didn’t hit anyone

feel the difference, we still have to catch up and catch up

[Eraser]

Tin, in some comments on the video, they say that it was shooting at their own, so it's good that they didn’t hit.

[Passing]

Quote: Rustam

we still catch up and catch up

As far as I remember, this is a recording of the work of either the Mi-24, or the Mi-8. Which is indirectly confirmed by the fact that the gun for shooting was not used.
So making panic conclusions based on this video that the Mi-28’s thermal imager is worse than Apache’s is somehow absurd.
In general, I saw a much better version of this video on the internet. And I remember the arms and legs were clearly visible. And why they didn’t get where they were aiming, they got there, it’s just that there was a forest, trees, or a rocket exploded too early, or the trees saved from fragments. Yes, and the pilot was greedy, he wanted to flunk everyone with one rocket, was aimed between people, and the rocket is not a high-explosive fragmentation, but an anti-tank one.

[Rustam]

and I'm afraid to ask high-explosive guided missiles do we have any? except for poor attack missiles and air needles (the version has not been used anywhere else)

Yes there is a hermes, but something was covered
and in general you saw the flight of an American rocket, it covers the people from above and ours in a straight line

if i'm wrong correct me

[Passing]

Quote: Rustam

Do you have high-explosive guided missiles?

http://www.kbm.ru/production/ptrk/34.html

Warhead:
type for 9M120 (9M120M) - tandem cumulative
type for 9M120F - high-explosive-cumulative
type for 9M220O - fragmentation
weight, kg - 7
Helicopter carrier - Mi-24VM, Mi-28A / N, Ka-29, Mi-35M

Is there 9M220O in the army, I don’t know. IMHO, now they are sifting through Soviet stocks, and they were obviously mostly anti-tank.

Quote: Rustam

besides wretched attack missiles

And what is she miserable in comparison with Hellfire? The range is the same (8000m), the same weight (49,5kg), the warhead is only not much lighter (7kg), the armor penetration is the same (950mm). But it flies twice as fast. The fact that the American strikes from above, well, what's the difference that the American will hit the target from above, that ours will hit right, the tank will be disabled in both cases. The lack of a radar seeker is of course a minus, but the Americans have far from every Apache with a radar. and not because there is not enough money for modernization. This radar for your information is sharply landing max. speed, somewhere up to 265 km / h, and flight range decreases by eighty kilometers. So not everything is so rosy with Longbow.

Quote: Rustam

Yes there is a hermes, but something was covered

Hermes was not covered, as I understand it, they are waiting for the full-time radar in helicopters, then they will start working out. Well, maybe a homing head for an extra-long version will be sawed for another two or three years. They’ll finish it, it will be cooler than any Hellfire, thirty kg warhead versus eight for Hellfire, this is a very serious claim, it will be the most powerful helicopter weapon in the world. And the upper projection will hit.

[aksakal]

Quote: Passing by

Yes, and the pilot was greedy, he wanted to flunk everyone with one rocket, was aimed between people, and the rocket is not a high-explosive fragmentation, but an anti-tank one.

- I agree, the explosion is not at all high explosive type.
NAR in this case is optimal, in a gulp to cover the entire group of three people with cheap missiles, which by the way at this range do not differ much in accuracy from the same hellfires (modern helicopters have a very small error in orientation in space, which determines the accuracy of hitting NARs) .

Quote: Passing by

So to draw panic based on this video that the Mi-28’s thermal imager is worse than Apache is somehow absurd. In general, I saw a much better version of this video on the internet. And I remember the arms and legs were clearly visible. And why didn’t you get where you aimed

- I saw a picture from the system, I don’t remember the name, Crossbow in conjunction with what French development, there it is completely similar to Apachevsky, I did not see anything like that with Apache. And the difference in the results of the attack in this case is, alas, the skill of the crew. Mats there sound not in vain - well, twenty years of failure and small annual raids will not disappear with a wave of a magic wand

[Pimply]

Conclusions can be made, for example, on the statement of the Indians - it was clear and concise.

Well, or at least because if my memory serves me, the matrices for thermal imagers are made by three countries - Israel, France, and the USA. Russia only takes up thermal imagers. Who do you think will have a better thermal imager?

[Passing]

Quote: Pimply

Who do you think will have a better thermal imager?

Hard to say. In fact, the basic version of the AH-64D was developed in 1996, and I don’t know if the thermal imager was upgraded in the Block II and III versions. It may well be that they left the old, and accordingly our (and most likely French) latest thermal imager, surpasses the American model, conditionally, 2005.

[Old skeptic]

You noticed how clear figures of people disappear from view in the smoke, not even affected, or the corpses instantly cool down or something is wrong.

[Pimply]

Drew. But there are several modes.

[Old skeptic]

What for? When you need to maximum. And if in a smoke a kid with MANPADS, a current oversight can cost a life.

[Pimply]

Why several modes? Well, because there is no absolute universal. If you noticed - he immediately opened a hurricane fire by smoke and shifted.

[viruskvartirus]

what is impressive? firing a cannon at people using night vision so MI-24 people have crumbled over the years of their service and NAR is more effective ...

[DUTCH]

Old skeptic, you'd better lay out stories about how Apaches shot heavy Iraqi tank divisions in dense smoke from oil wells. Baran understands such a high-tech machine with a wrench.

[Old skeptic]

In my post, I have no personal relationship, but it's strange to me that a fire support vehicle has such a long prelaunch cycle of 30 minutes, during which time there will be no trace of those whom it should support (if the enemy is serious), or you will have to organize constant combat patrols ... How do you imagine service in isolation from the base, etc.? This is a combat vehicle, and "tanks should not be afraid of dirt."

[viruskvartirus]

So I think for these reasons the amers order Russian helicopters ...

[Old skeptic]

We watch a video about thick smoke.

[sasha127]

Muggins.Mi-28 Weight kg.
maximum take-off-11500
normal take-off-10400
empty - 7000
maximum combat load - 3640
Yes, and on the "Apache" not where did it go, not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan, in Yugaslavia with the Apache, there were several accidents, two of the katorahs for the crew ended tragically. Yes, as I wrote in the Mi-28, the combat experience of the Mi24 was taken into account and it is generally recognized as the most vayuish helicopter in the world. Yes, and the dashing trouble is the beginning we'll see.

[Lech e-mine]

Despite the laudatory responses on APACH, I’ll say the following. In this video, the Yankees killed people who were completely unprepared for such attacks. None of them had any means of monitoring at night, and even more so counteracting turntables. None of them understood what they were dealing with. A this video showed just the shooting of people — and I saw at least two wounded Yankees finished with great pleasure. Conclusion-to fight with an illiterate and unarmed opponent is a lot of intelligence inappropriately.

I believe that FDII .. NDOS with the same pleasure shot the Indians in the 18th century and are doing the same thing now in AFGHAN AND IRAQ.
And we need to learn a lesson from all this. For each scrap find another scrap.

[Karish]

Quote: Leha e-mine

In this video, the Yankees killed people who were completely unprepared for such attacks. None of them had any means of monitoring at night, much less counteracting turntables. None of them understood what they were dealing with.

That is, in your opinion, it is necessary to fight exclusively with the same weapons as the enemy. And if the opponent is green and inexperienced. only green recruits should be set against him.
Or is it only in Dagestan or Chechnya, when army special forces, helicopters and tanks are called in to destroy a couple of the three bandits - this is correct. And when the Amer simply extinguish their enemies with high-tech weapons, without risk to their soldiers, they’ll be a cozl.
In war, dear Lech, they also win with skill and technology, but you can find a reason to run into Amer and some other. There is much to learn.
If I saw it. how Russian pilots herach Basaevites or Georgians (excuse the inhabitants of Georgia. just an example) would probably describe himself with happiness and would not be able to fall asleep for a week. The enemy must be able to recognize the strengths, then there will be a desire to improve. And so!? The swamp.

[Lech e-mine]

If I saw it. how Russian pilots herach Basaevites or Georgians (excuse the inhabitants of Georgia. just an example) would probably describe himself with happiness and would not be able to fall asleep for a week. The enemy must be able to recognize the strengths, then there will be a desire to improve. And so!? The swamp.

no need to be rude dear, if my opinion does not coincide with yours.
to make hasty conclusions about APACH on the basis of such videos, no serious specialist will.
And BADLY, I WOULD LIKE to see with great pleasure how our flyers herachat fighters and your favorite tie-eaters.

[Karish]

Quote: Leha e-mine

to make hasty conclusions about APACH on the basis of such videos, no serious specialist will

I agree with you, as a specialist, you name the helicopter (from the same class) better than Apache

Quote: Leha e-mine

And BADLY, I WOULD LIKE to see with great pleasure how our flyers herachat fighters and your favorite tie-eaters.

Why spite? I would love to see the same. how to urinate the Basayevites. And as for the Georgians, I’ll say, do not confuse Saakashvili with the entire Georgian people. Georgians are brothers to Russians. Many centuries together. fought together, live together. The Georgian people have always been and will be the fraternal people of Russia. Brotherly !!!!!, it is necessary to get rid of the complex of the older brother. Friends can only be equal.
Best regards

[Lech e-mine]

the friendship of peoples did not prevent the Georgian soldiers from shooting our peacekeepers — no need to get this on my ears.

[Pimply]

Well, the side that is actively taking the position of one of the parties to the conflict can hardly be called peacekeepers. However, everyone violated the agreement there.

[Lech e-mine]

Our peacekeepers did not conduct military operations, this is an indisputable fact. Further, the Georgians had the opportunity not to bring matters to the WAR. Further, for all the ha-friendship of the Georgian people to the Russian, he chose the ardent enemy of RUSSIA as President of Georgia. Saakashvili

[Pimply]

Should Georgia choose the president for how he treats Russia or for what he has done for the country? At that time, he sharply reduced corruption, attracted money to the country, and regained control of Adjara.

[Rustam]

let's not leave the topic

here we consider the capabilities of Apache and Mi-28

[Lech e-mine]

AGREE. So - is APACH able to withstand the QUEUE OF CHINESE DSHK?

[Rustam]

HZ ????

Well, you must first get into it, with its long-range capabilities it’s unlikely, to the same place who will be behind the DShK is a suicide bomber and he will be spotted for a moment, and most importantly he won’t give more

[aksakal]

Quote: Karish

I agree with you, as a specialist, you name the helicopter (from the same class) better than Apache

- I will call - the same Erdogan. A mixture of Igilian avionics and a Russian helicopter, lost in the Turkish tender only for political reasons.

[Rustam]

Erdogan-made prototype in the layout - don't laugh me

I’ll say a competitor, it’s ka-52 if it is brought to mind (you can even put an imported Breo), then there will be a worthy opponent

[aksakal]

Quote: Rustam

I’ll say a competitor, it’s ka-52 if it is brought to mind (you can even put an imported Breo), then there will be a worthy opponent

- Scha offered the Turks a layout for a serious tender. A helicopter, quite ready for battle, was offered by Uchi's materiel and history. . And yet - KA-52 on a crossbow - this is more than a worthy opponent. And if you put avionics from world leaders on KA-52, then your longbow praised for ... I swallow dust.

[Rustam]

Teach materiel and history
_____
I know her without you from a to z and I don’t need to build a pose here from myself !!!!



more - KA-52 on a crossbow - this is more than a worthy adversary, but what I’m talking about above ala, read carefully
everything is fine with Apache, you still need to work with ka-52
a) 2 years suffered from the flir of the Ural plant, some failures and failures in the middle of 2011 were established after achieving acceptable results
b) with a helicopter protection system - adjust with problems but it is magnificent
c) and most importantly, the Hermes complex - that's what you need - while silence
the range of American missiles is 16 km, an outdated attack of 8 km - so Hermes is needed as air, but friends from the military-industrial complex lobbied for the attack, so we fly with outdated missiles

[vitya29111973]

Well, tell me please, but many Russian soldiers are prepared for such situations !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! God forbid, but I think they were put no worse than the Afghans !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pimply]

Did you hear what the text was? No? So, a group of American soldiers was fired upon. Also "absolutely unprepared for being shot at." Maybe the Americans should have thrown night vision goggles at the Taliban? Or should there suddenly come ABSOLUTE JUSTICE AND BALANCE in life?

What unarmed adversary? Everywhere on the enemy, at first it was clearly defined - armed. And then there was destruction, and finishing - to complete neutralization. Because in such conditions it is impossible to determine how much this individual is not dangerous. What if he has a grenade in his hand and a bomb on his belly? Are you ready to sacrifice your soldiers?

[Lech e-mine]

Well, explain to me the incomprehensible WHAT AN OUTSTANDING COMBATING QUALITIES THE APACH HAS BEFORE the Taliban armed with the Chinese KALASH AND MOVING ON THE DONKEY.

[Pimply]

Ordinary 8) He is stronger and sees at night.

[Lech e-mine]

and on this basis can APACH be declared the BEST HELICOPTER OF ALL TIMES AND PEOPLES?

[Pimply]

Did I declare it "the best helicopter of all time"? This is a very good helicopter. There is simply no better helicopter of all time. At this stage, taking into account many other factors, Longbow is the best, and will soon give way to the top three 8)

[Lech e-mine]

here I agree with you. This APACH model has a good system for observing and aiming weapons, for now. However, all APACH have AHILLES FIVE -WEAK RESERVATION. And I doubt that it is able to withstand the burst of large-caliber machine guns.

[Pimply]

And what to doubt?

AH-64 has been actively used since the first day of the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. For the first time, AH-64D modification machines were involved. In general, the Apaches confirmed their high reputation in this conflict. The problems arose mainly due to unsuccessful tactics, the most famous example of which was a raid against a brigade from the Medina Republican Guard division on 24 on March 2003. Faced with an unsuppressed and well-organized enemy air defense system, 30 of the 33 participating in the Apache raid suffered combat damage. In this episode, the high survivability of AH-64 was again confirmed: only one of the crashed helicopters made an emergency landing on the territory of the enemy [15] (his crew was captured and the helicopter was destroyed by an air strike so that its equipment did not fall into the hands of the enemy).

The helicopter is very tenacious, this has been repeatedly confirmed. That reservation, which is on the Soviet and Russian helicopters, also has many serious drawbacks. You can’t completely cover yourself with armor, especially if you are in the air - it hits the flight characteristics. Now a promising topic is Kaz for the helicopter, and its integration with drones, which allows the situation with an unexpected meeting with the Chinese DShK to be minimized, and to protect the helicopter from MANPADS.

In general, the operating experience of these helicopters shows that their main losses are associated with some technical malfunctions - which is common. In battle, they behave well and reliably.

[Lech e-mine]

THERE IS THIS ACCESSED APACH. The Iraqis then hid him in the desert where the Yankees found him. And these 33 turntables were fired mostly with small arms.

[Karish]

Lyokha, it's good to drive bullshit. To listen to you, the poor Iraqis had nothing but stone axes and bows.
The Apaches are in service with the IDF and took part in all military operations, even in Lebanon, at least in Gaza. And they have enough MANPADS and DShK and everything else. There were hits, there were no irretrievable losses. In addition, you somehow don’t remember, why should the helicopter stupidly let itself be shot? Probably the crew somehow implements a set of countermeasures. Therefore, speed, maneuverability and the ability to see the enemy first is his dignity. Now you have not answered my question, which helicopter is better than APACH and why. Or is it all the benefits of MI 28 that the Iraqis did not fire at it?

[Lech e-mine]

there was no organized rebuff to the raid of this group of turntables, hence low losses. It is not serious to compare the militants in GAZ and LEBANON with IRAQ defense.
I do not presume to answer your question about the championship of any helicopter since I do not have such information.

[Pimply]

Why not serious? The Iraqis had a fairly powerful army, and good air defense.

[aksakal]

Quote: Pimply

Why not serious? The Iraqis had a fairly powerful army, and good air defense.

- Yes, they didn’t fight. They hijacked their best planes to Iran for storage until better times. "The best times" have come, Iran is not going to return anything. Quite good air defense - and also practically did not fight, only anti-aircraft artillery worked on low-flying lionfish and everything. Frankly, the Iraqis disappointed me, bought them on the vine. Only Fallujah showed from the heart what the Iraqis are capable of if they are not paid Toli Iraqi generals forgot to share, or cheated, generally offended. And yes, "powerful army", only money is very fond of

[Pimply]

Not. There is just Iran maksal.

[aksakal]

Quote: Pimply

There is just Iran maksal.

- Excuse me, but what is "maxal"? Maybe a new word has appeared in Internet jargon, but I don't know ...

[Pimply]

Max out

Pay (from Finnish Maksa - cost).

Petersburg theme. 8)

[vitya29111973]

No one bought them destroyed them. At first, the air defense system (by the way, quite powerful and effective) slowly, in a pinch, proved to be very good in the war with Iran. Then armored columns including Apaches !!! And at the expense of money it's just nonsense !!!!

[iwind]

about the reservation, it’s just against modern air defense and it’s useless, already 30mm guns can easily shoot down a helicopter.
the main thing that a helicopter saves on a tvd is its invisibility and the factor of the first strike. according to these parameters, Apaches and MI 28 develop, and both of them have bulletproof armor.

[aksakal]

Quote: Karish

Now you have not answered my question, which helicopter is better than APACH and why. Or is it all the benefits of MI 28 that the Iraqis did not fire at it?

- Erdogan was better at the time, wrote higher. In terms of potential, MI-28 and the descendant of the black shark are the best. A digital board with an open architecture is being installed, which will allow for a good improvement of all on-board equipment. I agree with avionics and the OMS at the moment in the Russian army is bad, but this is quite fixable. The task is set and performed. So the only strength of the Apache will be leveled very soon. In terms of maneuverability and reservation, Apache is inferior to MI-28, so there is still the question of who will be the best in a collision. So far, in the Iran-Iraq conflict, the Amer helicopters with which the Iranian side was armed showed itself, to put it mildly, not the casual side. And to call a spade a spade - well in that battle, the Amer helicopter technology against MI-24 was disgraced.
I think that the Kamovs are the best helicopters. KA-52 flight performance is simply gorgeous. After the Golden Eagles showed the capabilities of the hunters, potential buyers, who had already written off the MI-28 after the Indian tender for scrap, reached for their wallets again. Because there is something and what opportunities to show. And those buyers, if not knives with Israel, will buy avionics from the Jews, they will be happy to sell them and bow down for a long time and give thanks.

[Rustam]

put a plus for the last paragraph

but the rest is nonsense, you all remember the Iran-Iraq conflict, Iraq helped the whole world from the United States and the USSR to France and Germany, Iran was not helped by anyone other than China

[aksakal]

Quote: Rustam

but the rest is nonsense, you all remember the Iran-Iraq conflict, Iraq helped the whole world from the United States and the USSR to France and Germany, Iran was not helped by anyone other than China

- it’s not a matter of help, Rus, and, by the way, if things were as it was, as you write, Iran would have already come back. And I'm not talking about that, but about that famous helicopter battle, when exactly the helicopters clashed with each other. Just because I remember that more Russian and Amer helicopters weren’t met in large numbers in battle, and therefore all current comparisons are very speculative, and everyone will remain of their own opinion. And that battle was not at all speculative, it was real, the skill of the pilots was at about the same level. The only drawback is that the battle was more than 30 years ago and therefore, as it were, is outdated. Well, it’s not yet evening, the amers are very asking and are eager to test their vaunted helicopters against a serious adversary, you need to satisfy their desire, why not give them this pleasure? 13.5 billion of Russian exports versus 34 billion of American military exports, if after such an objective check they switch places - you don’t need to think how to get rid of oil dependence and become a high-tech economy. If Russia serves such exports, then in fact it has a high-tech economy. So the war is on hand not only to amers Some of the great ones said that world wars happen only with the consent and desire of all participants in the war.

[Pimply]

A massive battle like this is just a mistake in tactics.

[Rustam]

Axa, what are you ??? I don’t want us to have this on Mi-28 and that he would catch up with the Apache I really want !!! but when you find out and communicate with the grief, our managers want to give in the face (as long as they don’t give them a kick, they don’t move, but why ??? The main thing is to cut the dough from their motto, that's why it freezes me

remembering the second company (about the first silence) the helicopters in bad weather and finally couldn’t fly at night, they couldn’t and the guys were left without support

[Pimply]

We mention the war 30 years ago, where, as far as I remember, the Apaches did not particularly shine?

[aksakal]

Quote: Pimply

We mention the war 30 years ago, where, as far as I remember, the Apaches did not particularly shine?

- Apaches appeared after 1984 (the first prototype rose on September 30, 1975) in Mesa, Arizona. Therefore, in that conflict they could not have been. There, other amerskie helicopters participated - the same ones that fought in Vietnam. And what difference does it make to me, Apaches - not Apaches - kicked the ass on those MI-24 helicopters, and the whole conversation. And with the Apaches, the conversation is still ahead, do not rush to talk gop, elevating the Apache to the champion without a fight - the battle has not yet taken place, and you are proving something there. And by the way, if anything - the Russian analogue of the Apache is MI-28N, and the alligator was just created as an Apache fighter. History repeats itself in a spiral - many Indians were eaten in Mississippi by alligators, many "Nideans" will also be "eaten" in air battles by "Alligators". Compared to the AN-64, the Kamov helicopter has a significantly smaller size of vital units, a completely absent tail rotor allows the tail boom to be damaged without serious consequences. And the Whirlwind missiles can be used to destroy both ground targets (tanks with multi-layer armor corresponding in its strength to 900 mm of homogeneous steel) and air targets flying at speeds up to 800 m / s.

[vitya29111973]

Please excuse me, but this is a helicopter and not a fighter. The most important thing in modern technology is neither speed nor armor thickness nor maneuverability, but high-tech filling !!! I think it’s of little use if the helicopter arrives a minute earlier, but it will be shot down on approach. Russian machines are very good and if you put quality equipment on them, they would leave Apache far behind. But it is not there, and I think it will not be soon at such a pace, but what it is, to put it mildly, is not entirely suitable.

[vitya29111973]

This only proves that Apache was in battle and suffered losses. Nothing else!!!! We can’t discern the advantages of mi 28 here - only the cons and the first that mi was not in battle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vitya29111973]

you know this is the same trick that blame heavy infantry fighting vehicles for not floating. But so not one military "theorist" did not indicate a single battle in which the ability to swim our infantry fighting vehicles brought at least some benefit or tactical advantage. I will repeat myself for the thousand first time - THE APACH IS NOT CREATED AS AN ATTRACTOR AND ITS PLACE IS NOT IN BATTLE ORDER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alexey Prikazchikov]

NDA and all in fact that we have a very outdated element base. Here it is the result of neglect of designers of electronics. Eh heheheh, as it were, again, people did not have to plug holes.

[viruskvartirus]

This is not entirely true ...

[ankh-andrej]

Finally: in India, two military transport helicopters collided.

[Ataturk]

I’m thinking, if these superstitious and religious Indians called the tank this way, it would be interesting to look at the garlands and statues of Hanuman near the pen-do-sovy turntables

[sasha127]

In the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Apache demonstrated high survivability. So the relative losses (the number of downed, referred to the number of sorties) turned out to be much lower than that of the aircraft. It is not secret that when the Apache and Tiger were developed, it was assumed that Europe would become the main theater of military operations. But seeing the air defense of the armies of the former Warsaw Pact, and now Russia, cannot be compared with the air defense of Syria or Egypt, not to mention the Palestinian beviks. Therefore, if you look for anology in history, you can find them in the actions of ground attack aircraft during the Second World War. The Soviet Union was armed with the famous Il-2, the Germans during the war made their way from unarmored picker-cheeks Ju-87 to assault armored versions of the same thing and the FW-190 fighter. more likely to survive above the battlefield than its barely armored counterpart. Returning to the Mi-28 and 2Apach, “it is necessary to say that despite the heavy armor, the Mi-28 is not inferior to the Apache in maneuverability.

[viruskvartirus]

The whole survivability of helicopters is that they operate at low altitudes and from ambushes and shelters ... but air defense systems do not stand still in terms of work at low altitudes, plus ATGMs that can be used for helicopters ...

[sasha127]

Kanechna can from ATGM on a low flying helicopter, you can also shy away from a machine gun if it is very close. And the cavo is more likely to survive the one with the armor, or the one with the cavo does not have it!

[Fox]

well done Indians! I’m just happy for them! now in the next 20 years they have something to do with the loot ... the main thing is that there are no fights, otherwise they’ll beat these dragonflies.

[Old skeptic]

By the way about survivability over the battlefield. Who knows what the Amer’s military air defense system is equipped with and how is it organized?
After all, turntables in a normal war operate in the area of ​​operation of military air defense.

[viruskvartirus]

Hindus can be understood ... that MI-28 that Ka-52 helicopters are raw helicopters, even considering the huge experience with MI-24, by the way, I just read about Ka-52 http://topwar.ru/18308-aleksandr-mladenov-o-vertolete -ka-52-alligator.html promises to be very good and in general, MI-28 has only one big plus price compared to it ...

[Suvorov000]

it would be cool to see what would have happened if the mujheads had a "tunguska" about nib, probably for three hours they processed the site with artillery

[viruskvartirus]

The topic is not related to the Apache ... but showing how amers can crap Energoatom's losses from the emergency unloading of fuel by the American Westinghouse from the second and third power units of the South Ukrainian NPP amounted to $ 175 million.
http://lenta.ru/news/2012/08/31/energy/

[Brother]

Mi28N is a real beast, it would be run around quickly and everything is in order. The program already watched as they slowly entered the troops, everything was in order, running in, routine, but the car was cool in every sense.

[Allegedly]

If a gun hangs on the wall at the beginning of an Indian film, at the end it will sing and dance.