Military Review

Milgram's Experiment - First Attempt to Explain Nazism

122

Stanley Milgram. Source: concepture.club


Collective madness


In the previous part stories it was about the preparation of the world famous experiment of Philip Zimbardo in 1971. However, the story would not be complete without mention of Stanley Milgram's equally iconic experimental study.


A still from the documentary film Obedience by S. Milgram (1965). Source: youtube.com

Milgram's development as a professional psychologist was greatly influenced by distant Jewish relatives, former prisoners of concentration camps. After the war, they found temporary refuge in the United States at the home of the Milgram family.

The topic of the Holocaust after World War II, in general, was a separate phenomenon, which was treated in different countries in very different ways. In particular, in Germany in the 40-50s it became a taboo issue and there was no talk of any national reflection.

A few examples. Former prisoner of the concentration camp Primo Levi was unable to publish his book "Is It Human?" Immediately after the war. in the German publishing house "Einaudi". He managed to do this only in 1947, and then in a small circulation and not particularly known publishing house. Former prisoner of Auschwitz and future Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel could not publish his first book "And the world was silent" either in the USA or in Europe. As a result, it came out in Yiddish only in 1956 in Argentina. And sensational evidence about what was happening in the concentration camps from the notes of the deceased member of the Sonderkommando Zalman Gradovsky appeared in European languages ​​only 44 years after the war. The notes were found in 1945 in the ground under one of the Auschwitz ovens.

A few more paradoxes regarding the European perception of the catastrophe of mass extermination in concentration camps. The German chemical concern Degussa AG, which produced the Cyclone B gas during the war, was liquidated only in 2007. And in 2003, he became famous for making a special anti-vandal solution for the Berlin memorial to Jews who died in the Holocaust. A scandal erupted, and that controversial contractor was removed from construction. Much earlier, in 1953, residents of the town of Wehrl celebrated the release of war criminal Erich von Manstein. In particular, a day off was organized for children in schools so that they could witness the return of the "national hero" with their own eyes.

Milgram's experiment itself preceded the well-known trial of the Gestapo Eichmann in 1961 in Israel. Interestingly, Eichmann himself was ready to voluntarily appear before a German court immediately after the fall of the Third Reich - he was so sure of a mild sentence. The excessive sympathy for war criminals on the part of the new Germany forced the Jews to act on their own.
It was this background with respect to Nazism that was formed by the 50-60s in Europe.

The United States has not strayed far from its overseas cousins. And it took another decades for the real hunt for the Nazis who took refuge in America to begin.

In the scientific community, Nazism was treated as a phenomenon that requires an explanation. It is likely that ethnic Jew Stanley Milgram, in addition to scientific interest, tried to draw public attention to the legacy of the Holocaust. The psychologist considered that the monstrous atrocities committed in Nazi Germany were the result of the simple influence of authority on a subordinate. This had to take especially hypertrophied forms in the German society, accustomed to a clear order, subordination and detailed planning.

Milgram's experiment


Milgram, an excellent experimenter at Yale University, came up with a simple and very visual experience in which three people participated - "teacher", "student" and "experimenter." All attention was directed to the behavior of the "teacher", the only person not privy to the true purpose of the experiment. By the way, he was paid $ 4,5 for participating in the experiment, which for 1963 was a good salary for an hour and a half experience. At the same time, the “teacher” received money regardless of the results of the experiment. The worst of all was in the experience of the "student" - he was constantly beaten with electric shocks. Of course, not really, but the "student" had to act out the convulsions at a high level, otherwise it was impossible. According to the scenario: the “teacher” invited from the street had to offer the “student” simple tasks and, in case of an incorrect answer, beat the unfortunate person with an electric shock.


Toolkit "teacher". Source: ibtimes.co.uk

A special generator was developed with a voltage step of 15 V, up to 450 V.

This attention to detail gave Milgram's experiment the necessary quantitative basis for statistical calculations, which dramatically increased the reliability of the results. Again, the "student" did not receive an electric shock, but only imitated it plausibly.

In Milgram's experiment in the classical version, “teacher” and “student” did not see each other, but the man with the switch could hear the screams of the punished well. The "experimenter" constantly pressed on the "teacher", forcing him to increase the voltage with each incorrect answer. The role of the "experimenter" was performed by an authoritative person, usually aged and dressed in a white robe. In the case when the “teacher”, out of humane motives, did not dare to continue the execution, the prepared phrases were used: “Please continue”, “The experiment requires you to continue” and “It is absolutely necessary that you continue”.

If the subject refused to increase the tension after the call-phrase "You have no other choice, you must continue," the experiment ended. And the “teacher” had the right to try on the role of a benefactor. But there were only 35% of them, the rest continued to clearly follow the orders of the "experimenter", bringing the "student" to a painful shock.

Milgram's Experiment - First Attempt to Explain Nazism
The layout of the protagonists of the experiment. E - "experimenter", T - "teacher" and L - "student". Source: wikipedia.org

What do the results of Stanley Milgram's resonance experiment say?

First, that there are enough people among us who are capable of mass murder and other atrocities. At the same time, they do not show any sadistic inclinations and, most likely, do not even realize their "potential". And do not think that in Nazi Germany at the end of the 30s, many such maniacs accumulated, who were later packed into the ranks of the SS.

Milgram repeated the experiment many times in the United States and Europe. In general, the results from sample to sample did not differ much from each other - about 65% of "teachers" continued to shock another person under pressure from the authority of the "experimenter." Many humanists tried to refute the conclusions of Milgram, but everything fell apart on an unsurpassed scenario of the experiment, where it was possible to calculate everything, reveal patterns and mathematically substantiate.

Secondly, the results of Milgram's experience say that a key factor in the madness of the Holocaust was the phenomenon of submission (sometimes blind) to an indisputable authority or simply to the authorities. The "experimenter", as the manager of all action, had power and authority in the eyes of the "teacher". This allowed him to over and over again force the unfortunate to shock the unfortunate just for the wrong answers.

In the Third Reich, Hitler was the authority for the Nazis, to whom was added a host of other bonzes - Goering, Goebbels, Himmler and others. All of this allowed performers, from the commandant of Auschwitz Rudolf Höss to the last lousy capo, to set the hellish Holocaust machine into action. Most importantly, they could shift responsibility to their commanders, they say, an order came, and we are military men. If it is simpler, then it is worth a person simply to impute cruelty to duties, and for the most part there will be no problems with fulfilling professional duties.

In the Third Reich, nothing special in social terms was observed - people were like people, nothing different from other nations. The Nazis became Nazis by a natural tendency to obey authority. And even if they paid for it!

In Nazi Germany, state political and ideological pressure was added to this. And the psyche of the average burgher, as they say, “floated”, which resulted in the tragedy of the Holocaust, the mass extermination of civilians and prisoners of war. This is how Stanley Milgram interpreted the results of his experiments as applied to Nazism.

A new impetus to research was given by the experiments of Philip Zimbardo, but more on that at the end of the material.
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  1. out of habit
    out of habit 7 May 2021 15: 16
    -1
    If the commander of the Sonderkommando ordered the burning of the villagers in the barn, it was his personal initiative, not his superiors. Apparently, their own sadism also took place in the brains of the Germans.
    1. xorek
      xorek 7 May 2021 19: 44
      +15
      Quote: out of habit
      If the commander of the Sonderkommando ordered the burning of the villagers in the barn, it was his personal initiative, not his superiors.

      I've read and heard this more than once .. For example, there were sadists and others, but everything was fine .. negative
      Quote: out of habit
      Apparently, their own sadism also took place in the brains of the Germans.

      Have you read Mein Kampf? Or simple orders of the German commandant's office in the occupied territories? Everyone has already forgotten negative
      Today I literally listened to radio "svoboda" .. One scum argued, like, well, Hitler got into Russia in vain, and so he was "the greatest leader and organizer" ..
      Do you feel what they are driving at, in the west? They need Hitler again .. A lot of debts have already accumulated and it's time to make lampshades with soap .. negative
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 7 May 2021 19: 53
        +3
        Quote: xorek
        Paddles

        Keyword. Respect.
        good wassat
        1. xorek
          xorek 7 May 2021 20: 14
          -4
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          Quote: xorek
          Paddles

          Keyword. Respect.
          good wassat

          Ilyich understands you! wink hi
    2. qQQQ
      qQQQ 12 May 2021 09: 20
      0
      Quote: out of habit
      If the commander of the Sonderkommando ordered the burning of the villagers in the barn, it was his personal initiative, not his superiors. Apparently, their own sadism also took place in the brains of the Germans.

      In my opinion, this is not entirely true. The West is, first of all, rationalism - a machine striving to complete a task with maximum efficiency, feelings have no place there, but to burn a hundred people in a barn, from their point of view, quickly and cheaply. Therefore, Nazism is a natural development of Western culture, look what they are doing now, everything is repeated in a spiral, only under a different "sauce".
    3. Petrik66
      Petrik66 12 May 2021 12: 35
      0
      ??????? The question is posed incorrectly. The Germans tried to carry out the depopulation technique as much as possible saving resources. In 1941, Einsatzkommando practiced shooting with carbines, conducted by selected participants from the Hoch Deutsch. The finishing off was carried out by a non-commissioned officer or officer. Hammering with crowbars in Kaunas was carried out by local residents. According to the results of 41 years, adverse consequences for the participants were noted, such as alcoholism, mental disorders. Because of this, it was decided: 1. To attract local personnel for such "work", primarily Ukrainians and Balts. 2. Experiments with "gas chambers" - killing with gases from a running machine engine. But, this was not suitable for the scale of German operations. But to drive people (women, children, old people) into a wooden room and burn them - quickly and does not require large expenses. Everything is simple and economical. The Germans were in command of the process, and ours were already doing it: Ukrainians, Russians, Balts. If the Waffen-SS participated, the technology was the same. For them, this is not atrocities, it is their service. that is why, at the Nuremberg trial of the SS, NSDAP, etc. were recognized as criminal organizations. They are all criminals on the fact of accepting them, and the SS was volunteer, and it's a pity that they were not hanged by EVERYONE! Most of these scum survived, and their descendants in the baltics and Ukraine continue their work.
  2. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 7 May 2021 15: 19
    +16
    And why exactly to Nazism? The same Vicki points out the link to the massacres in Vietnam.
    And, in general, collective psychosis has been known for a long time. And, of course, he is not possible without an authoritarian leader. There is always a need for a shepherd.
    1. xorek
      xorek 7 May 2021 19: 48
      -14%
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      And why exactly to Nazism? The same Vicki points out the link to the massacres in Vietnam.
      And, in general, collective psychosis has been known for a long time. And, of course, he is not possible without an authoritarian leader. There is always a need for a shepherd.

      Do you justify Nazism, did the training manual come? On the radio of freedom, they began to talk like that. And why would it be? Why do Jews keep quiet ..
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 7 May 2021 20: 22
        +4
        Do you have complexes about Nazism? How long ago? Do you want to talk about this topic? Do not be silent. Pour out your feelings. What are you dreaming about? How often?
        PS Please note - I do not condone Nazism. I'm looking for a bundle. Like many others in the comments. Where did you see the excuse?
        1. xorek
          xorek 7 May 2021 21: 28
          -14%
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          Do you have complexes about Nazism?

          Not .
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          How long ago?

          I read you .. negative
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          What are you dreaming about? How often?

          My grandfathers and great-grandfathers who have fallen .. And what are you dreaming about?
          Quote: Leader of the Redskins
          PS Please note - I do not condone Nazism. I'm looking for a bundle. Like many others in the comments. Where did you see the excuse?

          When they start looking for connections and so on .. So soon they will again begin to be so quietly indignant in all the media .. And why did we take Berlin? Now they would drink Bavarian beer and snack on sausages (of which it was not specified made of ...)
          I am this statement and your so-called "search for a bundle" From the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, I heard all one on one on the radio (veterans loved to listen to it, their eyesight is not something to watch TV already) You know what happened to them, listening like you? I know .. negative soldier
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 8 May 2021 03: 50
            +5
            And my grandfathers do not dream. I, whenever possible, visit their graves, lay flowers. I remember their exploits and tell my children. I wrote an article about them on VO.
            So, probably, their souls calmed down correctly, since they do not dream.
            And I did not find a direct link in the article. As already mentioned. I even went online on purpose - and it is not indicated there. And if you read the rest of the comments, you will notice that I am not the only one.
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 7 May 2021 15: 20
    +6
    Interestingly, those who did not fit into capitalism for 30 years, is it democracy?
    1. xorek
      xorek 7 May 2021 20: 21
      -1
      Quote: parusnik
      Interestingly, those who did not fit into capitalism for 30 years, is it democracy?

      Well, as the red-haired "our said" ... And even brought the victims, well, almost guessed.

      Although I think there were more victims and the most professional and devoted to the country and the Fatherland .. They were destroyed in the first place
      1. unknown
        unknown 8 May 2021 06: 45
        -4
        A very interesting look at Chubais, as well as Gorbachev and Yeltsin from the point of view of astrology.
        It would seem not science, but ... The most literate astrologer in Russia today, has a physical and mathematical education, and ... does not consider himself an astrologer.
        Any professional astrologer will say that people born in the year of the Goat are strongly discouraged from engaging in POLITICS, COMMERCIAL AND MILITARY AFFAIRS.
        Failure is PROVIDED.
        In addition, from a scientific point of view, the researchers concluded that only THIRTEEN PERCENT of the population have the ability to be successful in business.
        And not all of them are in business.
    2. Albert1988
      Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 31
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      Interestingly, those who did not fit into capitalism for 30 years, is it democracy?

      Ordinary fascism is ... In its purest form. We must not forget that fascism is an extreme manifestation of capitalism, and Nazism is an extreme manifestation of fascism.
  4. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 7 May 2021 15: 21
    +10
    Well, if we take the Jewish question out of the brackets, then the Third Reich was not engaged in anything so unique. Camps, genocide, dictatorship and similar things were in all parts of the world both before and after the forties.
    1. unknown
      unknown 8 May 2021 06: 56
      +2
      German Nazism is based on English ideas, and oddly enough, the ideas embedded in Judaism.
      Not just ideas about the superiority of one race over another, races are really very different, and not just physically. But, the idea of ​​the right to physical extermination according to racial and national criteria.
      Judaism itself arose not as an ideology of the people, but as a justification for the activities of usurers.
      Usury has never been a godly business. To give it a certain legitimacy, a new ideology in the form of religion was required. Later, on the basis of the usurious estate, a new people was created through proselytism.
      1. Sancho_SP
        Sancho_SP 8 May 2021 09: 53
        -1
        In general, the ideas themselves are not important at all.

        Germany is a little unique, mainly because it was "put in place" twice in 50 years, so much so that for almost a hundred years they are afraid to raise their heads.
  5. Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 7 May 2021 15: 27
    +7
    What is the connection between this experiment and Nazism? It only shows that some people can be deceived and, under suggestion, can hurt another.
    1. out of habit
      out of habit 7 May 2021 17: 13
      +3
      under the suggestion can hurt another.
      "Young Guard" tortured under suggestion? The Germans themselves WANTED to hurt, and gave free rein to imagination.
    2. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 7 May 2021 19: 41
      +3
      "What is the connection between this experiment and Nazism?" - I fully support. Torture has been used by people at all times and by all nations. What kind of Nazism could the Indians have? And Ivan the Terrible with his guardsmen? What does the Inquisition with its quirks have to do with Nazism? There are countless examples.
      1. unknown
        unknown 8 May 2021 07: 00
        0
        Nazism is a nation.
        The Indians had no nations.
        The term tribalism is used in English literature to refer to such peoples.
        From the English word tribal - tribe.
        The absence of nations does not at all prevent African tribes from committing genocide to each other.
        1. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 8 May 2021 08: 57
          +2
          Nazism is not a nation.
          "NATIONAL-SOCIALISM
          or Nazism is a form of social structure that combines socialism with pronounced nationalism (racism). N.-s. also called the ideology that substantiates this kind of social order ”- quote from TSB.
          1. Albert1988
            Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 33
            0
            Quote: Sergey Valov
            a form of social structure that combines socialism with pronounced nationalism (racism). N.-s. also called the ideology that substantiates this kind of social order ”- quote from TSB.

            An important clarification - there really is no smell of socialism - typical radical capitalism.
            1. Sergey Valov
              Sergey Valov 9 May 2021 23: 56
              0
              "There really is no smell of socialism - typical radical capitalism" - Are you going to correct the TSB? laughing
  6. knn54
    knn54 7 May 2021 15: 31
    +5
    -A special generator was developed with a voltage step of 15 V, up to 450 V.
    Promising cadets in Abwehr reconnaissance schools were so relieved of stuttering.
    The Old Testament (and not only) tells the story of the conquest of Canaan by Israel (Saint Joshua), accompanied by the destruction of the indigenous population.
    This is me about the origins of NAZISM.
    1. mark2
      mark2 7 May 2021 16: 16
      +6
      You are absolutely right. All peoples who declared themselves God's chosen ones passed along this path and repeatedly. Ancient Romans, Europe during the formation of Christianity and the Crusades, Jews, about which they proudly wrote in the Torah, Scripture confirms this no less majestically, Europe during the conquest of the New World, Hitler's Germany, Americans to the indigenous population, in Korea and Vietnam.
      1. unknown
        unknown 8 May 2021 07: 08
        -6
        The words "Jew" and "Aryan" in ancient languages ​​sound the same and have the same meaning - a person.
        The words "European" and "Jew" are synonyms.
        "Europe" is a country (from the word side) of Jews (Europeans), that is, people
        The holy land is Hollandia.
        The Jew is ideological.
        This religion arose as a result of justifying the activities of usurers.
        Later, by imposing, or proselytizing, if scientifically, the class of usurers turned into a people. The ideological boomerang created by the usurers returned to the religious class during the days of German Nazism.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 00: 06
      +1
      Quote: knn54
      -A special generator was developed with a voltage step of 15 V, up to 450 V.
      Promising cadets in Abwehr reconnaissance schools were so relieved of stuttering.
      The Old Testament (and not only) tells the story of the conquest of Canaan by Israel (Saint Joshua), accompanied by the destruction of the indigenous population.
      This is me about the origins of NAZISM.

      What does the extermination of the population have to do with the conquest of National Socialism? The first was practiced by everyone who is not lazy, especially in the ancient world, but a social system that works only for the benefit of an ethnically correct population, with the killing / robbery / enslavement of citizens of their own country according to the national (also ideological, since the system authoritarian) - this is already a phenomenon of a different kind, no relation to Joshua and other ancient Jews, who, by the way, were the first (documented for the first time with them) provided the Gentiles and foreigners living in the settlements, equal rights and security with the locals, no relation.
  7. rocket757
    rocket757 7 May 2021 15: 36
    +2
    In the Third Reich, nothing special in social terms was observed - people are like people,
    It seems like people, with all the set of human vices ... and then, they were given the opportunity, an excuse to let all their vices out ... and they cease to be just humans, become non-humans.
    1. lucul
      lucul 7 May 2021 18: 48
      -1
      It seems like people, with all the set of human vices ... and then, they were given the opportunity, an excuse to let all their vices out ... and they cease to be just humans, become non-humans.

      No, just manipulation tricks.
      A person is indoctrinated (for instilling such a level (murder), the indisputable authority of the level of the parents / teacher is needed) that someone else is to blame for all their troubles, and not themselves, and then they point a finger at the culprit - and that's it.
      In this case, in the role of the witch at the stake of the Inquisition, the Jews were in the Second World War.
      What I would like to note is that Hitler offered to all countries to resettle Jews in Germany, but all countries refused ...
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 7 May 2021 19: 57
        +1
        It seems that all the leaders of states of that period had plenty of skeletons in the closet.
        It was a difficult time.
        1. Maki Avellevich
          Maki Avellevich 9 May 2021 06: 34
          +2
          Quote: rocket757
          It seems that all the leaders of states of that period had plenty of skeletons in the closet.
          It was a difficult time.

          and it’s not easy now
    2. unknown
      unknown 8 May 2021 07: 14
      +1
      Like the British, and especially the French in their colonial possessions.
      And, oddly enough, all in vain.
      After the collapse of the British Empire, a quality audit was carried out.
      Not ostentatious, but for yourself. To assess the real results and costs.
      The conclusion was completely unexpected.
      From an economic point of view, the British Empire proved to be a completely unprofitable enterprise.
      That is, classical imperialism is not economically rational. Absolutely.
      Only the neo-colonialism practiced by the United States is beneficial.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 8 May 2021 08: 52
        +1
        The question is complex.
        You can look at the problem from different angles .... and the assessment will be very different, depending on which side the assessor is.
        I can assume that even an objective audit by experts will not change the attitude of different parties to a situation in which one side is comfortable and the other side is far from ice.
        The attitude of a person to the state is based on how he personally lives in such a state !!! evaluations of a small group of specialists / managers / experts, not everyone cares!
      2. Albert1988
        Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 36
        0
        Quote: ignoto
        After the collapse of the British Empire, a quality audit was carried out.
        Not ostentatious, but for yourself.

        Quote: ignoto
        From an economic point of view, the British Empire proved to be a completely unprofitable enterprise.

        A small amendment - it became unprofitable at the end of its existence, when it grew excessively and had to spend too many resources to maintain it, and competitors in the face of all "young capitalist predators" grew up (for example, Germany and Japan).
    3. zenion
      zenion 11 May 2021 18: 55
      +1
      In order for people to become brutal, you need to make them beasts. After the First World War, this was done to the Germans. Rescued the Germans as best they could, the USSR. Saved by work, trade and teaching with training. But the Fuhrer's brains jammed, and he attacked the hand that fed. The country of the Soviets was not needed by anyone, it was too human and it was an example that a person can live like this in any country. You just need to take power into the hands of the entire people. Mark Twain wrote in the book "Yankel of Connecticut at the Court of King Arthur". The people have the right to choose such a form of government and change it as they see fit. The Americans did not like it very much. Therefore, Mark Twain wrote that if the elections meant something, the people would not be allowed to come close to the elections.
  8. Pavel57
    Pavel57 7 May 2021 15: 51
    +1
    Quote: out of habit
    If the commander of the Sonderkommando ordered the burning of the villagers in the barn, it was his personal initiative, not his superiors.

    But it was based on superiority, permissiveness, and this was the basis of the ideology of the Nazis.
    1. sevryuk
      sevryuk 7 May 2021 18: 19
      +1
      The commander did not perceive them as people - for him they were like "Colorado", which must be destroyed.
  9. samarin1969
    samarin1969 7 May 2021 15: 54
    +5
    A sacred theme for Jews. But the material was not convincing.
    In VO, many profess communism. According to their theory, everything has "objective socio-economic reasons", and Nazism - incl.
    1. Albert1988
      Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 38
      0
      Quote: samarin1969
      A sacred theme for Jews. But the material was not convincing.
      In VO, many profess communism. According to their theory, everything has "objective socio-economic reasons", and Nazism - incl.


      In this case, the psychological reasons, the peculiarities of the psychology of people are considered, which allow, in the event of a certain socio-economic situation, to implement the scenario of Nazism.
      Because from the point of view of socio-economic, Nazism is an extreme form of fascism, and fascism is radical capitalism.
  10. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 7 May 2021 16: 15
    +9
    I think that the roots of Nazism as such came from a number of points.
    1) The protracted conditions and great sacrifices of the First World War, as well as the subsequent collective connectedness in the conditions of a losing and restrictive country, on the one hand, rallied the German nation in the face of the "enemy", on the other hand, taught it to the concept of increasing sacrifice and patience on the way to the result. The widespread post-World War I view of "a shameful end to a war when it was still possible to fight" added the notion that persistence, properly, beyond fanaticism, may be the key to victory.
    2) The post-war separation into the camp of winners and losers played a role - the Germans felt more their unity and opposition to the surrounding world.
    3) In the conditions of a difficult post-war life, the already not very glamorous German people were forced to pay reparations, and against the background of the global economic crisis, many people found themselves in a frankly disastrous situation, were forced to borrow money from bankers and usurers. Accordingly, the attitude towards them was akin to the modern attitude towards collectors and MFOs - with the only difference that in central Europe, with its clannishness and traditional guild approaches, this group of people was associated with representatives of a certain nationality.
    In turn, often medical services (rather expensive) and tavern business were also associated with this nation - and spending the latter often pouring money on grief or to improve health - this contributed to the focus of discontent. You also need to understand that due to increased entrepreneurship, representatives of a certain nation got on their feet faster after the events of BB1 and the failed revolution, often lived better than the Germans, while having a tendency to cultural and aesthetic distance from them. All this created the basis for the formation of hatred within the "besieged fortress", which the Germans perceived their country with.
    4) The Germans knew their own worth very well - they understood how their products, specialists, music, culture, quality are valued around the world. At the same time, for many years, they personally observed a situation that did not fit well with this. This contributed to the formation of a demand for a sense of justice and compensation, a desire to take a worthy place corresponding to their potential as a united and capable nation. The combination of factors preventing this, real and mythical, caused ill-founded anger and indignation in not very distant people, desire_solve_this_question_radically... If a set of simple things (in your opinion) is not solved for a long time (for some reason), you, like Alexander the Great, want to treat him like a Gordian knot - that is, by force.
    5) Finally, the post-war unrest within German society and the failed revolution gave rise to reflections on the inevitable striving for the UNITY of the Nation in the face of threats and challenges. Just as now the jingoistic patriots with anger and contempt look towards "Navalnyat", often in rhetoric referring to them as "second-class people, despicable hirelings," etc., many Germans also looked at any ideologically inconsistent with some pre-war military canons , automatically writing them into the "unstable element", a broken brick in the wall of a besieged fortress. Therefore, calls for the removal of these "broken bricks" were received by many with enthusiasm, believing that this would strengthen the vital strength of society in the face of threats.

    All these factors + many others led the German nation gradually into the dark labyrinths of fanaticism and obscurantism. In the same conditions, in general, any nation could come to a similar + -. I well remember how, against the backdrop of the devastation of the 90s, various ideas a la the early NSDAP were quite in demand in our country. Fortunately, at that moment, cultural inoculation and gradually improved living conditions prevented the development of such trends.
    1. lucul
      lucul 7 May 2021 18: 57
      -6
      The German people, who were not particularly flamboyant, were forced to pay reparations, and against the backdrop of the global economic crisis, many people found themselves in a frankly disastrous situation, were forced to borrow money from bankers and usurers.

      How did Hitler come to power then? He promised the Germans to resolve the issue with the usurers, the Germans actually elected him for this.
      No usurers - no question. Is not it so ? And Hitler would never have come to power ...
    2. unknown
      unknown 8 May 2021 07: 20
      -2
      The roots of Nazism in Protestantism.
      If you are rich, then God pleases.
      But, you will not earn all the money, most of it will have to be stolen.
      That is, if you stole, took away, killed and became rich, then you are pleasing to God.
      The roots of Nazism are British ideology, the supremacy of the white race, and most importantly, its right to take away, kill.
      The roots of Nazism in Judaism. Ideology of the estate of usurers. An extreme form of Protestantism.
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 9 May 2021 11: 26
        +1
        and Japanese fascism, which is worse than German, how then can you explain it with Protestanism?
      2. Albert1988
        Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 41
        0
        There are many reasons. And Protestant religious movements, and national humiliation, and a difficult economic situation. And, finally, the psychology and culture of people who were born in a mono-national state located on a piece of land, where for two thousand years all of this was gnawing each other's throats due to limited resources ...
  11. bk0010
    bk0010 7 May 2021 16: 16
    +1
    Interestingly, someone immediately cut in 450V?
    1. Avior
      Avior 7 May 2021 16: 58
      +5
      And I wonder if this "teacher" knew that 450 V was life-threatening and that he was in prison for many years?
      Obviously, people were selected, the first person they met would have refused such a risky experiment for the teacher himself. Or everyone played, including the supposedly random teacher.
      1. bk0010
        bk0010 7 May 2021 23: 12
        +2
        Quote: Avior
        450 V is life threatening
        This is not entirely true (for stun guns up to 120000V, but they are not dangerous for life, serious models are not allowed on the market - the gopots take care of their health). Under certain conditions 450 V is life-threatening - yes.
        1. Avior
          Avior 8 May 2021 08: 35
          +2
          This is very dangerous for people with heart problems, even if the current is limited.
          Knocks down the heart rate
          1. Rusticolus
            Rusticolus 9 May 2021 11: 44
            0
            It depends on how much the current is limited. Otherwise, all the cores would die like flies in the fall, it would be worth wearing something made of woolen or synthetic clothing. In addition, the higher the voltage, the more inclined it is to spread only over the surface.
  12. BISMARCK94
    BISMARCK94 7 May 2021 17: 16
    +4
    My opinion: the results of the experiment show not what a bad nation is in a specific time period and under a specific politically oriented leadership, but how a person, in principle, likes to destroy his own kind. In the history of mankind, not only the Germans were marked by genocide))
  13. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 7 May 2021 17: 41
    +3
    I want to note to the author that the criminals of the First World War, in Germany, were also tried without much enthusiasm, many were not even looked for, although they lived at home. So, Eichmann could well have received a very lenient sentence. The Greeks, three times demanded the extradition of the commander of the airborne division, who ordered in Crete to shoot the hostages for attacks on German soldiers. The Greeks were sent on an erotic journey on foot, although Greece is a NATO member)))
  14. Basarev
    Basarev 7 May 2021 18: 06
    +5
    Why are they so focused on the Holocaust? Russians, namely ethnic Russians, died many times more - but no one remembers them.
    1. Avior
      Avior 7 May 2021 22: 04
      +4
      This is a very inconvenient topic that they do not like to touch upon.
      Jews almost immediately after the war counted the number of their fellow tribesmen who died.
      A more or less consistent estimate of the victims of Soviet people was 26-27 million people in the USSR named 45 years after the war (after the war they called the figure 7 million).
      The number of victims of ethnic Russians has not yet been counted, in any case, there is definitely no agreed generally accepted figure and there is no search for the day: (((((
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 7 May 2021 22: 18
        -5
        As for the losses, I once came up with a completely monstrous thing. Perhaps, if I read it, I will be cursed. But the calculation comes out plausible, so I would venture to share with you. So, I suspect that if the USSR had not resisted, the losses would have been less. The Reich could hardly cope with the Jews, interrupted 6 million with great effort, with the full tension of equipment and personnel. That is, the Russians would hardly have filled more, especially considering that the Russians were not included in the priority list of extermination. And besides, the allies. Realizing that in the case of the development of Russian resources, the Reich would become invincible, the Allies would make superheroic efforts to expel the Nazis from the Union as soon as possible, which would also affect the number of losses ... Now the worst thing: after such a victory, the Allies would build normal capitalism on the territory of the USSR without all sorts of dirty tricks - we were sincere friends then, especially since there was a chance to follow the Jewish scenario - the West will see the Russian victims of Nazism. And here's the result: in the Soviet space, there is correct capitalism, with all the wealth and development, with the West, the warmest relations, like in a normal European country ... And the losses are still less than in the case of an uncompromising War.
        1. Avior
          Avior 7 May 2021 22: 58
          +6
          To be honest, I doubt that the allies would have built something with us, they did not do it directly after the First World War either.
          But this is purely my idea, of course.
          Undoubtedly, the number of victims could have been different.
          In my opinion, we do not have, for example, a professional study on the influence of the chosen forms and methods of warfare on the number of victims in comparison with the damage inflicted on the enemy.
          For example, according to the partisan movement, it is known that where there was a partisan movement in the forms then adopted, the number of civilian casualties increased sharply. And this concerned not only us, the situation in Europe was similar, another thing is that there the scale of the partisan movement did not exist there, they understood this connection perfectly well. But where it was, it was accompanied by repression and massacres, as in Lidice or Oradour. The crimes of the fascists in these cases are undoubted, but, in my opinion, such things should be investigated professionally from the point of view of the ratio of the damage inflicted to the enemy and the number of victims associated with it. But the topic is taboo, historians do not want to take up, so as not to receive accusations of justifying Nazism, and you cannot seriously consider such a question with arguments on the forums.
          And this problem concerns us in the first place.
          1. Albert1988
            Albert1988 9 May 2021 13: 01
            0
            Quote: Avior
            For example, according to the partisan movement, it is known that where there was a partisan movement in the forms then adopted, the number of civilian casualties increased sharply.

            Don't you think that the partisan movement was especially active where there were a large number of civilian casualties?
            1. Avior
              Avior 10 May 2021 08: 04
              0
              I think that professional historians should provide answers to such questions.
              in my opinion, such things should be investigated professionally from the point of view of the ratio of the damage inflicted to the enemy and the number of victims associated with it. But the topic is taboo, historians do not want to take up, so as not to receive accusations of justifying Nazism, and you cannot seriously consider such a question with arguments on the forums.

              And as for the partisan movement, in our country it was organized by party-state bodies even before the arrival of the Germans, although there were other alternatives, read Starinov's memoirs, for example.
        2. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 8 May 2021 00: 25
          +3
          Quote: Basarev
          As for the losses, I once came up with an absolutely monstrous thing. Perhaps, if I read it, I will be cursed. But the calculation comes out plausible, so I would venture to share with you. So, I suspect that if the USSR had not resisted, there would have been less losses. The Reich could hardly cope with the Jews, interrupted 6 million with great effort, with a full strain of equipment and personnel. That is, the Russians would hardly have filled more, especially considering that the Russians were not included in the priority list of extermination. And besides, the allies. Realizing that in the case of the development of Russian resources, the Reich would become invincible, the Allies would make superheroic efforts to expel the Nazis from the Union as soon as possible,

          There was a plan Ost. Leave a minimum of the Soviet population in the European part of the country, deport to the maximum for the Urals, whom it is possible, for the remaining three classes of education, to restrict the birth rate with free contraceptives and colonize everything by the Germans. Those, in addition to the necessary minority of 15, EMNIP, millions, with whom the transport system cannot cope - to starve to death and other methods. Nazism is a terrible thing, a racial struggle, goodies and goodies only for people of the correct ethnic origin. So no capitalism for the Slavs would have learned, but the help of the allies in this situation is a fiction.
          1. Basarev
            Basarev 8 May 2021 00: 46
            +1
            Was the plan feasible? Anything can be scribbled on paper. The Germans struggled to cope in occupied Europe. It's hard to believe that they would have carried out the Ost plan exactly. It is impossible to effectively control such a huge space with such a small detachment of forces, especially considering that the Allies are on the heels, eager to prevent the capture of Soviet resources.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 8 May 2021 00: 50
              +4
              You wrote about the quick surrender of the country without resistance - 1941, right?
              The states have not yet been attacked by Japan. Hitler has no show-off to declare war on them, tk. no losses and no battle for Moscow. What remains is Britain, which has hardly defended itself. Would she not let the Reich take Soviet resources? Moreover, in this situation it is unclear whether the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor - here it is, a cool defenseless piece from the Far East to the Urals. Therefore, they would live partly under the Nazis, partly under the Yapas. Nothing good, in short.
              1. Basarev
                Basarev 8 May 2021 01: 09
                -2
                It is the threat of resource grab that would have vividly contributed to the revision of priorities and the earliest possible withdrawal of the States from the fetters of isolationism. Britain is not so defenseless, the battles over the strait are not even close to Stalingard. After a decisive victory there, she will go on the offensive and will send waves of Lancaster, bombing the German rear. The Japanese will not reach the Urals, not with their ridiculous land army to cut thousands of kilometers through the barren taiga. And the atrocities of the Germans ... Yes, they will forgive me for the terrible comparison, but there was a rather big queue in the cells, their capacity was barely enough for current needs. That is, it is a mistake to think that the Germans will easily exterminate tens of millions of inhabitants of the European part of the USSR, deportation is also unlikely, again because of the limited transport opportunities.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 8 May 2021 01: 12
                  +1
                  I don't think that anyone in the States would have sent their guys to a meat grinder because of Soviet resources, waves of Lancasters could not have been built without American help, the Japanese would have been content with the cities of the Far East and Siberia, and would have cut through the railway without resistance.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 8 May 2021 07: 54
                    +2
                    Both the United States and England would not agree to an excessive strengthening of Germany and Japan, so they would not have fought for Soviet resources, but for the threat to their countries.
                    As for the Ost plan, it existed in different versions, and the version you are writing about has not been found, its existence is known only from the indirect remarks of one German official.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 09: 07
                      0
                      They would not agree, but this would hardly be the reason for the United States to enter the war.
                      Plan Ost - from what I read, what I stated was contained in the Oldenburg plan, which became the subject of consideration of the Nuremberg Tribunal.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 8 May 2021 20: 11
                        +4
                        Oldenburg plan is an appendix to Barbarossa, there was a question about the economic supply of the German army for the Barbarossa period, there is something completely different ..
                        What you have, as far as I understand, is from Wetzel's note to one of the variants of the Ost plan, 9 pages in karandosh on the sheets of a notebook, the Ost variant itself was not found, Wetzel was not asked about this and was not interrogated at all on this score. Wetzel himself writes in a note about the unrealistic plan.
                        There were several versions of this Ost, none of which were actually accepted or performed.
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 8 May 2021 22: 17
                        +1
                        Did not know thanks
                      3. Albert1988
                        Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        What you have, as far as I understand, is from Wetzel's note to one of the variants of the Ost plan, 9 pages in karandosh on the sheets of a notebook, the Ost variant itself was not found,

                        On this topic, I recommend listening to the lectures of Yegor Yakovlev (can be found on the Digital History channel on YouTube), about the plan ost, in what form it existed and how it was implemented - a lot is said there.
                        The main thing is that the Germans were able to destroy 19 million inhabitants of the European part of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine - this is a quarter of the total population living in the territories occupied by the Germans ...
                      4. Avior
                        Avior 10 May 2021 21: 04
                        -1
                        General plan Ost is the name of a group of documents on the development of the occupied territories by the Germans, developed in 1940-1943 by various German organizations with significantly different content, some of these plans have survived, some are not and are known only from indirect evidence ..
                        None of the options was officially accepted, and therefore not implemented.
      2. unknown
        unknown 8 May 2021 07: 27
        0
        The Germans did not have the correct ethnic origin.
        "Correct" ethnic origin among Poles, Belarusians and Russians.
        From the point of view of genetics, Poles and Russians are generally identical.
        That is, from the point of view of the genetics of the "half-breed", the Germans exterminated the "correct" peoples.
        1. Albert1988
          Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 54
          0
          Quote: ignoto
          The Germans did not have the correct ethnic origin.
          "Correct" ethnic origin among Poles, Belarusians and Russians.

          Dear, I will remind you that there is no "right" and "wrong" ethnic origin! All ideas about "right-wrong" nations are just for the Nazis.
          Quote: ignoto
          From the point of view of genetics, Poles and Russians are generally identical.

          Not quite - from the point of view of genetics, the Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians of the central and southern regions of Russia represent a single commonality, the Russians of the north of Russia (Pskov, Novgorod, Arkhangelsk) are slightly different - there is a northern branch of the Eastern Slavs. The Russian-Belarus-Ukrainian community has many similarities with the Poles, but there are still noticeable differences.
          As for the Germans - I don't know what you mean by "half-breeds", but from the point of view of genetics, Germans are a separate population with a unique genetic diversity inside. But there is some kinship with the Slavs - if the Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians and Poles are averaged, then you can find some similarities with the average Germans (Germans + Austrians)
    2. ivan2022
      ivan2022 8 May 2021 17: 58
      -1
      Quote: Basarev
      And here is the result: in the Soviet space, there is correct capitalism, with all the wealth and development, with the West, the warmest relations, like in a normal European country ... And the losses are still less than in the case of an uncompromising War.

      It's like; "Relax - you will have fun." The truth is somehow not reliable, because prostitutes are often killed ..... and everything is just cool ...... you just have to "give", and then the client will pay off like a true gentleman.
      About that another enemy Churchill said: "If shame and war are chosen for honey, then in the end they get both shame and war." And it is downright strange that all Western countries are so stupid that they follow Churchill and not the wisest Basarev.
    3. Albert1988
      Albert1988 9 May 2021 12: 46
      0
      Quote: Basarev
      6 million interrupted with great effort

      Not with an effort, but rather "easily" - in just 3 years, count.
      Quote: Basarev
      That is, I would hardly have filled more Russians

      Oga - in the occupied European part of the USSR (80 million people in the occupation), 19 million (!!!) were destroyed, that is, a quarter of the total population of the occupied territories! In German captivity, almost 4 million Soviet prisoners were destroyed - 3 million real prisoners of war and another 1 million simply captured and placed in camps of a civilian male population of military age.
      So the genocide of the inhabitants of the USSR (read - Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians) - was colossal!
    4. Albert1988
      Albert1988 9 May 2021 13: 00
      +1
      Quote: Basarev
      Now the worst thing: after such a victory, the Allies would have built normal capitalism on the territory of the USSR without any dirty tricks - we were sincere friends then, especially since there was a chance to follow the Jewish scenario - the West would see the victims of Nazism in Russian. And here is the result: in the Soviet space, there is correct capitalism, with all the wealth and development, with the West, the warmest relations, like in a normal European country ... And the losses are still less than in the case of an uncompromising War.

      The absolute chimera! No allies would go to free us! And most importantly - no one would build "normal capitalism" on the territory of the USSR - they would turn it into a raw material colony.
      A striking example is Russia in the 90s - who came here from America to build capitalism? We have come to build a colony, destroy industry and raise compradors! Do you have any idea that capitalism will never raise a competitor for itself? And the ideas of the colonization of Russia were actively preached even during the time of the intervention.
      And in the event of the defeat of the USSR, the Germans would have received such resources that, together with their technologies, would have led to the fact that in the year 47, the Nazis would bomb America with intercontinental ballistic missiles with nuclear warheads, and would shoot down all these fancy American strategic bombers. clouds of jet fighters ...
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 8 May 2021 00: 18
    +1
    Quote: Basarev
    Why are they so focused on the Holocaust? Russians, namely ethnic Russians, died many times more - but no one remembers them.

    Because the Germans soaked on ethnic basis not only the population of the occupied or countries at war with them, among which were including. Jews (Polish, Soviet, etc.), but also their neighbors (German Jews), colleagues, teachers, etc.
    1. t7310
      t7310 9 May 2021 15: 53
      0
      there is an opinion that up to 150000 Jews served in the Wehrmacht troops, and as I understand it, no one soaked them, it turns out in Germany they soaked some wrong Jews and didn't soak the right ones? and in other countries, how much are all Jews, or were they also correct and incorrect from the point of view of the Nazis?
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 9 May 2021 18: 07
        0
        There were only 600 Jews in Germany. Where to get 150 thousand in the Wehrmacht, when the draft age is (conditionally) from 17 to 47)))
        150 thousand were mishlig of the second category - one Grandfather or Grandmother was Jews. Hitler did not consider them G-chosen, however, such were not taken in the SS.
  • unknown
    unknown 8 May 2021 07: 23
    -1
    At the same time, oddly enough, from a genetic point of view, the cleanest in Europe (the country of Jews) are Poles, Belarusians and Russians. The most affected peoples, not the Germans, and even less the British.
  • andreykolesov123
    andreykolesov123 8 May 2021 08: 29
    +2
    Quote: Basarev
    Why are they so focused on the Holocaust? Russians, namely ethnic Russians, died many times more - but no one remembers them.

    But because it is with a certain part of the Russians that they are concentrated precisely on the Jews. They do not care about their own people, but envy and hatred of others. The saddest thing is that the rest of the Russian people perceive this as normal.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 09: 12
      0
      Quote: andreykolesov123

      But because it is with a certain part of the Russians that they are concentrated precisely on the Jews. They do not care about their own people, but envy and hatred of others. The saddest thing is that the rest of the Russian people perceive this as normal.

      This is a very scanty part of the Russian people. laughing Like some residents of Israel's disadvantaged areas, who are over 50, talking about "Ashkenazi oppression", the Russians who destroyed the country, etc.
      1. andreykolesov123
        andreykolesov123 8 May 2021 09: 52
        +1
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Quote: andreykolesov123

        But because it is with a certain part of the Russians that they are concentrated precisely on the Jews. They do not care about their own people, but envy and hatred of others. The saddest thing is that the rest of the Russian people perceive this as normal.

        This is a very scanty part of the Russian people. laughing Like some residents of Israel's disadvantaged areas, who are over 50, talking about "Ashkenazi oppression", the Russians who destroyed the country, etc.

        A scanty part is expressed, and the rest simply prudently remain silent, otherwise the posts about Jewish dominance would not have skipped here.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 8 May 2021 12: 08
          0
          Should we scold the anti-Semites with indignation, rushing at them with angry denunciations? laughing
  • Nitochkin
    Nitochkin 7 May 2021 18: 26
    0
    Fascism has not gone anywhere, this abomination is still blooming in full bloom.
  • Avior
    Avior 7 May 2021 18: 57
    0
    People see the origins of Nazism in different ways.
    There is such a version.
    The origins of Nazism, no matter how cynical it sounds, are in the breakthrough of science at the end of the 19th century.
    People believed too much in science, really then still primitive.
    Some believed that it was possible to bring a scientific basis for medieval utopias - they invented scientific communism.
    Others - that Darwin's discovery applies to the realm of human relations - they came up with social Darwinism and eugenics.
    They believed that in humans, everything is like in animals, the most viable individual and species survived.
    And all social processes are a struggle for the survival of a species, a people.
    And all the crimes of Nazism are a struggle for the survival of the species, the people.
    Nothing personal, so to speak.
    The better the individual representatives of the people are adapted to survival, the more developed the people are.
    The better a people has formed relations, the more chances they have to survive in the process of evolution.
    And from this they have already deduced what became the basis for the crimes of Nazism. Unviable individuals reduce the survival rate of the people - therefore, all sorts of mentally ill, homosexuals, and others, they are subject to destruction.
    Improved the gene pool of the nation, so to speak.
    Other nations, competing in the struggle for survival and clinging into the people and interfering with its survival, are subject to removal, at first they tried to simply evict or isolate, but then moved on to the final solution of the issue, the physical elimination of Roma and Jews.
    Note that this is precisely the ideological approach of the Nazis, and not a consequence of the sadistic inclinations of specific people, which is especially frightening. That is, in order to become a mass murderer, a person did not necessarily have to like it.
    The attitude of the Nazis to this was just something like - someone should do this dirty business.
    There were, of course, sadists, but at the top the decisions were not made according to sadistic inclinations. This was not advertised, although, of course, the Germans had a good idea of ​​what was happening.
    That is why Nazism is dangerous - for mass crimes it is not at all necessary for those inclined to sadism to gather together, and the most noble goals for the people are declared.
    Only the deeds are not at all noble: (((((
    hi
    1. ivan2022
      ivan2022 8 May 2021 16: 30
      -4
      Quote: Avior
      People believed too much in science, really then still primitive.
      Some believed that it was possible to bring a scientific basis for medieval utopias - they invented scientific communism.
      Others - that Darwin's discovery applies to the realm of human relations - they came up with social Darwinism and eugenics.


      Not science was primitive, but your approach at the level of a kindergarten: "These thought so and wanted so, but these thought not so and did the opposite." DO NOT NEED TO JUDGE THE WORLD SCIENCE EQUIPPED, take it out of order! Every cricket, know your six. ... One must have a childish level of development in order to assert that the practical Istria of mankind is written "according to theory, because they wanted it that way."
      By the way, "scientific communism" is a theory put forward by Marx for the needs of the labor movement in the West. Likewise, no one invented "feudalism" and "capitalism", although there were and are theories that serve their needs.
      Among them are social Darwinism and eugenics.
      The problems of communism in Russia are the problems of a society that has not yet matured even to the level of Western capitalism of the 19th century. What the hell to us "scientific communism" if we never had a mass labor movement, and the consciousness of the people at the level of ideas about the Tsarevatyushka?
      1. Avior
        Avior 10 May 2021 21: 15
        0
        Every cricket, know your six. ...

        Let me see your work in peer-reviewed scientific journals, your citation index and Hirsch index? What is your degree?
  • xorek
    xorek 7 May 2021 19: 59
    -5
    And this article, before the holiday on May 9? This is constantly happening, they want to whitewash and humiliate Nazism the Soviet people, who broke the back of European Nazism virtually alone with such sacrifices .. It was not just Berlin that had to be taken, but moved on ..
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 00: 31
      +2
      Quote: xorek
      And this article, before the holiday on May 9? This is constantly happening, they want to whitewash and humiliate Nazism the Soviet people, who broke the back of European Nazism virtually alone with such sacrifices .. It was not just Berlin that had to be taken, but moved on ..

      Vitaly, this would only lead to new casualties among the soldiers of the Red Army - the air was behind the Americans and the Britons in any scenario. Maximum - they would take all of Germany, a piece of France, Austria and, perhaps, Italy (which is unlikely, the Saxons had superiority at sea) And then they would scratch their Turnip how to feed and keep them all, and seize the first atomic bombings instead of the Japanese ...
      1. Avior
        Avior 8 May 2021 08: 00
        +2
        Moreover, the Japanese would immediately become allies of the Americans and the British, and move together to the Far East, pulling our troops out of Europe.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 8 May 2021 09: 14
          +1
          There are two scenarios - I agree with the first, and the second - Stalin would agree with the Japanese before the attack of the Saxons. The question is what was more profitable for the Japanese. In my opinion, your option. hi
          1. Avior
            Avior 8 May 2021 11: 42
            0
            In my opinion, too, but Churchill, as you know, for some reason had a different version when he asked to consider the Unthinkable - one of the initial data of the plan was that Japan would side with the USSR.
            However, the very name of the plan betrays Churchill's view of its reality.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 8 May 2021 12: 03
              0
              Quote: Avior
              In my opinion, too, but Churchill, as you know, for some reason had a different version when he asked to consider the Unthinkable - one of the initial data of the plan was that Japan would side with the USSR.
              However, the very name of the plan betrays Churchill's view of its reality.

              Overheated in two world wars, which, in principle, is not surprising
              1. Avior
                Avior 8 May 2021 12: 14
                +2
                In principle, he considered a slightly different option - one in which, after the victory over Germany, the USSR would side with Japan, and not against.
                In my opinion, it is also deliberately unrealistic.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 8 May 2021 12: 18
                  +1
                  It is clear that unrealistic - Churchill was an ardent anti-Bolshevik, so he constantly brought him to the wrong steppe laughing
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 8 May 2021 19: 47
                    +1
                    He had an excellent counterbalance in the person of Roosevelt. :)
      2. xorek
        xorek 8 May 2021 09: 21
        -1
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Quote: xorek
        And this article, before the holiday on May 9? This is constantly happening, they want to whitewash and humiliate Nazism the Soviet people, who broke the back of European Nazism virtually alone with such sacrifices .. It was not just Berlin that had to be taken, but moved on ..

        Vitaly, this would only lead to new casualties among the soldiers of the Red Army - the air was behind the Americans and the Britons in any scenario. Maximum - they would take all of Germany, a piece of France, Austria and, perhaps, Italy (which is unlikely, the Saxons had superiority at sea) And then they would scratch their Turnip how to feed and keep them all, and seize the first atomic bombings instead of the Japanese ...

        I agree with you, you are right of course .. I wrote a little on emotions, I just sensed that they were again beginning to justify the Nazis, etc. by the cunning .. Well, and carried me to the wrong steppe .. laughing Good luck Krasnodar hi
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 7 May 2021 21: 40
    +1
    Quote: Basarev
    Why are they so focused on the Holocaust? Russians, namely ethnic Russians, died many times more - but no one remembers them.
    The largest percentage of those killed in Belarus.
    1. Avior
      Avior 7 May 2021 22: 08
      +2
      ... at the beginning of the war, 9 million people lived in the country .... During the war years, over 2 million people died on the Belarusian lands (of which almost half were Jews)
    2. xorek
      xorek 8 May 2021 09: 39
      -1
      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: Basarev
      Why are they so focused on the Holocaust? Russians, namely ethnic Russians, died many times more - but no one remembers them.
      The largest percentage of those killed in Belarus.

      This is for sure, whole villages were burned and the partisan movement was massive, in contrast to Ukraine, etc. ...
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 7 May 2021 23: 57
    0
    It is a pity that the article was not published in the morning and in the Opinions section.
    Very interesting
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 8 May 2021 00: 13
    +2
    Quote: xorek
    It wasn’t just Berlin that we had to take, but move on ..

    1. It would cost the country another 1 million. Lives.
    2. The country did not have the resources to support all of Europe. This was clearly GKO in 45.
    1. xorek
      xorek 8 May 2021 09: 28
      0
      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: xorek
      It wasn’t just Berlin that we had to take, but move on ..

      1. It would cost the country another 1 million. Lives.
      2. The country did not have the resources to support all of Europe. This was clearly GKO in 45.

      Okay, you're right. hi .I wrote it emotionally. Stalin did everything right, that he stopped the troops in Europe and on the Japanese islands, although there were almost Tokyo going to storm our marines! They could, of course, but there would have been many victims.
      And the country was already exhausted to the limit.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 8 May 2021 11: 02
    0
    Quote: Avior
    Jews almost immediately after the war counted the number of their fellow tribesmen who died.

    There is a count, or recalculation of 6 million. taboo?
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 12: 13
      0
      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: Avior
      Jews almost immediately after the war counted the number of their fellow tribesmen who died.

      There is a count, or recalculation of 6 million. taboo?

      A comparison of the number of Jews in European countries before and after the war, carried out in 1949 by the World Jewish Congress, led to the conclusion that the death toll in the Holocaust is six million; this number is fixed in the verdicts of the Nuremberg trials over the main war criminals [26], the Eichmann trial, and was recognized by the majority of the participants in the International Conference of Scientists on the Statistics of the Catastrophe (Paris, 1987), where figures from 4,2 million (according to G. Reitlinger) to 6 million (according to M. Marrus and others).
    2. Avior
      Avior 8 May 2021 19: 46
      +1
      As far as I know, none of the serious historians have doubts about this figure of 6 million, it was also at the Nyurberg Tribunal, the decisions of which were officially recognized by almost all states.
      I heard that more than 4 million of the dead are listed by name in Yad Vashem, and I do not know that anyone was trying to refute this.
      By the way, at the tribunal, the Soviet side estimated the number of Soviet deaths as only 6 million people.
      The last figure announced in Gosudum, 40 million of our dead, comes from the leadership of the Immortal Regiment.
  • ivan2022
    ivan2022 8 May 2021 11: 39
    -6
    NO FUCK TO YOURSELF - DISCOVERY! Hazing in the army, crimes in madhouses, in nursing homes, wherever there are closed institutions - a common thing even without any scientific experiments; "Where is there Dostoevsky with the notes known, I would have seen the deceased as they beat their foreheads on the door ..." - so in Vysotsky?
    And here is what M. Gorky writes in the article; "On the Russian Peasantry" (1922)
    "In Russian cruelty one can feel a diabolical sophistication, there is something subtle, refined in it. This property can hardly be explained by the words" psychosis "," sadism ", words that, in essence, do not explain anything at all. ... if only the facts cruelties were an expression of the perverted psychology of a few - it was possible not to talk about them, in this case they are the material of a psychiatrist, not a writer of everyday life, but I mean only collective fun with human torment.

    In Siberia, the peasants, having dug holes, lowered prisoners of the Red Army there - upside down - leaving their feet - up to their knees - on the surface of the earth; then they gradually covered the pit with earth, watching the leg cramps which of the tormented would be more enduring, more tenacious, who would suffocate later than others.

    The Trans-Baikal Cossacks taught their young people to cut down on prisoners.

    In the Tambov province, the communists were nailed with railway crutches in their left hand and in the left leg to trees at a height of a meter above the ground and watched as these - deliberately wrongly crucified people - were tormented.

    The Red Army men, opening the prisoner's stomach, took out the small intestine and, nailing it to a tree or a telegraph post, drove the person around the tree with blows, watching how the intestine was exhausted from the wound. Stripping the captive officer naked, they tore off pieces of skin from his shoulders, in the form of shoulder straps, and hammered nails into the place of the stars; they ripped off the skin along the lines of the harness and stripes - this operation was called "dress according to the form." It undoubtedly required a lot of time and great art.

    There were many more such nasty things going on, disgust does not allow increasing the number of descriptions of these bloody fun.

    Who is more cruel: white or red? Probably the same, because both are Russians. However, history answers the question about the degrees of cruelty very definitely: the most cruel is the most active ...

    I think that nowhere are women beaten so mercilessly and terribly as in the Russian countryside, and probably no other country has such proverbial advice:
    “Hit your wife with a butt, lie down and smell - breathing? - he is fooling, he still wants to ”. "The wife is twice sweet: when they take them into the house, but when they take them to the grave." "There is no trial for a woman or a cattle." "The more you beat a woman, the tastier the cabbage soup."
  • andreykolesov123
    andreykolesov123 8 May 2021 12: 32
    0
    Quote: Krasnodar
    Should we scold the anti-Semites with indignation, rushing at them with angry denunciations? laughing

    Why not. What is the problem here? Now you felt sorry for the Russians, you were indignant.
  • rruvim
    rruvim 8 May 2021 14: 26
    0
    Which Milgram gave the command to bomb Dresden with napalm and drop two nuclear bombs on Japan?
  • rruvim
    rruvim 8 May 2021 14: 36
    0
    As my late friend used to say, "Don't touch the tender idea of ​​fascism." He said it after watching the movie "The Night Porter". There is fascism and there is Nazism. Two different concepts. For example, the Baath party in Syria and Egypt were fascists. Surkov's idea of ​​the "Russian World" is typical fascism, because it includes any people associated with Russia: Russians, Kalmyks, Yakuts, Jews, etc. The State of Israel is typical Nazis.
  • Antokha
    Antokha 8 May 2021 15: 53
    +1
    Why so many Russians died in concentration camps if Hitler killed only Jews?
    1. rruvim
      rruvim 8 May 2021 16: 25
      -4
      And how many Germans, Italians, Romanians and Spaniards died in our camps? Also the Japanese. Lack of food, medicine, disease. The commandant of Kaliningrad committed suicide when he could not feed the 120 German population in East Prussia. I had to send them all to the GDR.
      1. Antokha
        Antokha 8 May 2021 17: 31
        0
        Yes, Russia is a terrible country. The worst. She is responsible for all evil since the creation of the world. And the rest of the countries, they are all white and fluffy. How to live? I look forward to Victory Day tomorrow. Me and 140 million people minus the fifth column.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. rruvim
          rruvim 8 May 2021 22: 49
          +2
          The fifth column is either in the Kremlin or in London. They rotate.
    2. rruvim
      rruvim 8 May 2021 16: 26
      -2
      Holocaust denial - article!
      1. Antokha
        Antokha 8 May 2021 17: 32
        0
        And the article is not provided for stupid threats.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 8 May 2021 16: 22
    0
    Quote: Krasnodar
    figures from 4,2 million (according to G. Reitlinger) to 6 million (according to M. Marrus and others) were discussed.

    Large spread. 6 million this is a figure pronounced by the Germans but, apparently, convenient for the final calculation.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 8 May 2021 16: 25
    0
    Quote: ivan2022
    no country has such proverbial advice:

    Proverbs are different, for example - I'll fall for my husband, I'm not afraid of anything.
    1. ivan2022
      ivan2022 8 May 2021 20: 19
      -4
      In einer guten Ehe fügen sich Himmel und Erde zusammen. “In a good family, heaven connects to earth. (it)
  • rruvim
    rruvim 8 May 2021 16: 49
    +1
    Everyone read Eichmann's interrogations by the Israeli prosecutor's office. Published in Russian. Eichmann is an ethnic Jew. He told our fellow Zionists during the interrogation only one thing, we offered you to take the German, Austrian and Polish Jews, but you did not agree. To England, to America. Why? Eichmann offered only people, not their means. Means of production. They could take diamonds and gold with them. And the "final question" was decided by the same people: Eichmann, Yosya Goebbels and Globocnik. All in general are "ours". And the question was in general: send your fellow tribesmen to Israel with kicks. This is the point, the most important was in the meeting, in the famous castle. There was also Madadascar, but this is out of the realm of fantasy. Stalin sent Jews to the Jewish Autonomous Region. But who did, of course.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 12 May 2021 12: 45
    0
    In the scientific community, Nazism was treated as a phenomenon that requires an explanation.
    Well yes. Some kind of explanation was required. Preferably beautiful and scientific. I didn’t want to admit that the behavior of the Germans was a COMPLETELY ORDINARY EUROPEAN WAR. The Europeans, who slaughtered entire nations with an unwavering hand, exterminated Negroes by the millions because they could not meet their production quota (in work for which they were not paid at all, and fed them every other day), killed their own peasants by hundreds of thousands because land was required under the sheep, they did nothing, absolutely nothing that they didn’t do before.
    Simply, thanks to the appearance of the USSR in the world, it was no longer possible to be openly proud of all this. I had to invent a "scientific explanation", and begin to dress up in the toga of a humanist, condemning the USSR for "Stalinist repressions". Europeans suddenly began to imagine themselves as cute and fluffy humanists (not in a hurry, however, to close "human zoos") and they needed, in the language of modern "science", a high-quality excuse. You can't wash a black dog white ...
  • foxhound
    foxhound 13 May 2021 05: 46
    0
    First, the experiment explains the phenomenon of cruelty, not Nazism. Subject-teacher still considers the student to be a human, although subject to authority. He knows that he is participating in the experiment and assumes that the organizers will not kill anyone. The Nazi, on the other hand, deprives the victim of human status; he lacks any empathy for the victim.
    Secondly, there were cases when the Nazis did terrible things that were not part of their duties and even contradicted them. For example, the murder and torture of prisoners of war, peacekeepers just like that, for fun or revenge.