"Shoot in bursts - no cartridges will be enough": to the 105th anniversary of Fedorov's 2,5-line assault rifle

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During the time during which the development of small arms weapons and small arms business as such, the approach to the definition of certain options for weapons also changed. In the XNUMXth century, it was customary to call automatic rifles what today would be called self-loading rifles. Today, small arms that are capable of firing bursts are called automatic rifles or machine guns. In this case, a special nuance also lies in the use of the cartridge. If we are talking about a "pistol" cartridge, then the weapon will be called a submachine gun.

In 2021, a 105-line automatic rifle developed by Vladimir Fedorov celebrates its 2,5th anniversary. In our country, this particular rifle is considered the first machine gun.



Russian gunsmith, creating a new version of small arms, decided to use for it the Japanese cartridge 6,5x50 mm, known as "Arisaka". This cartridge has become very widespread and was used in the armies of various countries of the world, including not only Russia and Japan, but also Great Britain, Korea, Finland, etc.

It is worth paying attention to the fact that they met a rifle capable of firing bursts in Russia it is very cold. Even Emperor Nicholas II, commenting on the brainchild of Vladimir Fedorov, said that it would be better to focus on the production of conventional rifles, "since no rounds of ammunition will suffice when firing in bursts." Years have passed since then, and now it is obvious to any person familiar with weapons how the sovereign-emperor was wrong then.

A story about the Fedorov machine gun on the True Life channel:

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    1. +2
      6 May 2021 04: 34
      Even Emperor Nicholas II, commenting on the brainchild of Vladimir Fedorov, said that it would be better to focus on the production of conventional rifles, "since no rounds of ammunition will suffice when firing in bursts."
      No, well Niki - 2 is not an ideal ruler laughing , but even he did not say such nonsense, it seems.
      1. +6
        6 May 2021 04: 55
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        when shooting in bursts, no cartridges will be enough "

        These words have not been attributed to anyone since the end of the 19th century.
        1. +2
          6 May 2021 06: 30
          Quote: mark1
          These words have not been attributed to anyone since the end of the 19th century.

          And even to Nicholas II on various occasions ...
      2. +23
        6 May 2021 07: 54
        Well Nikolay || he has said and done so many nonsense that one less nonsense, one more does not matter. I read another version - "I do not have enough cartridges for conventional rifles, and yours shoots them in whole packs ..."
        1. +4
          6 May 2021 07: 59
          Quote: Khibiny Plastun
          Well Nikolay || said so many stupid things

          But then I had to buy Arisaki wink Fedorov's cartridges were driven laughing True, he himself had to establish production in Sestroretsk ...
    2. +20
      6 May 2021 08: 19
      All the same, the Fedorov assault rifle was the first successful design of a light, hand-held automatic weapon. And its shortcomings are not in the design, but in the culture of production and finished off the decision on a single caliber 7,62 where 6,5 did not fit. The same shops were refined in the army workshops. The Fedorov submachine gun fought in the Finnish, they were armed with OSNAZ, which specialized in the destruction of Finnish bunkers and bunkers. It is a pity that all vidos retell the same facts in their own words, nothing new. No matter how much I looked for a video of shooting from it, and even on foreign sites, I did not find anything except analysis. And how everyone repeats the mantra about poor accuracy.
      1. +4
        6 May 2021 11: 19
        so there are almost no working samples, and what is there is in museums and no one will let them shoot ...
      2. +11
        6 May 2021 11: 39
        That's right, I read the memoirs of our special forces about the Finnish war, they used Fedorov's assault rifles. There was not a word about any complaints.

        Our guys are at the Finnish pillbox.
    3. +1
      6 May 2021 11: 32
      crying eh .. it's a pity that you can't see what happened to Russia if not the revolution .. it would be interesting
      1. +8
        6 May 2021 13: 03
        In principle, you can. Observe the next 5 years for Ukraine, where everything is going. So it would be the same with Russia. There would be several Russians at once, dividing the remnants of the Russian empire among themselves by force.
        1. -2
          6 May 2021 13: 30
          Or would Russia come to WWII with an army fully armed with automatic weapons
          1. +8
            6 May 2021 17: 56
            Perhaps you do not quite correctly understand the reasons for the revolutions of 1917. The people (peasants, workers) were completely driven to the end by poverty. We lived from hand to mouth. The First World War was the "apophygism of all fiery", which even more exposed the absolute social and class injustice. Workers and peasants were drafted into the army en masse and sent to the front, often unprepared and unarmed. One rifle for three is a button accordion in relation to the Second World War, but it is quite a reality in 1916. What machines in such conditions? At the same time, the nobles (landowners) and capitalists (merchants, industrialists) were eating in the capital in restaurants with champagne. The soldiers were even forbidden to walk on the pavements of St. Petersburg because these "dirty ragamuffins" didn’t want to spoil the view and trample clean sidewalks with their dirty boots. Also mono and spoil the appetite of decent people in restaurants. It all ended with the same - how it should have ended. Soldiers and sailors massively supported the revolutionaries ...
            And if we are already talking about the missed weapon opportunities of the early USSR, then this is the SVT-25 rifle and a similar Simonov self-loading rifle participating in the same competition. Both projects were rejected by the leadership of the Red Army due to the inability to shoot from these rifles with barrel grenades. If then this requirement was not considered so important, the Red Army already in the early 30s could have been armed with self-loading rifles.
            1. +1
              6 May 2021 18: 06
              do not confuse the February and October revolutions .. they are like different things .. The fact remains. In RI there was a ready-made and tested sample of automatic weapons, but the PPT-27, which, as I understand it, was not brought to mind because of the desire to get an automatic weapon, instead of making a full-fledged carbine for a revolver cartridge ... I am not interested political background .. it would be interesting for me to look at the development of the school of weapons ..
              1. +4
                6 May 2021 18: 47
                yes there would be no development. self-taught people would poke around as before, and orders were given to all revolvers and berdans (I'm not saying anything bad about the designs of the Nagant and Berdan) all the same AKM (as the embodiment of Fedorov's ideas) is the result of the entire engineering school of the USSR and the Shot team. in the Russian Empire, this was not even close, unfortunately.
                1. 0
                  6 May 2021 20: 22
                  laughing And Fedorov is aware that it was not he who developed the rifle, but the Nagan?
                  1. 0
                    6 May 2021 22: 52
                    Quote: Barberry25
                    laughing And Fedorov is aware that it was not he who developed the rifle, but the Nagan?
                    do not quite understand. about Nagan, I meant that we bought his revolver design and paid him for participation and technology in the Mosin rifle.
                    1. +1
                      7 May 2021 10: 15
                      So Fedorov developed a machine gun and began to produce it or not? Oh ... developed and started producing ... Only because of the revolution, as a result, the transition to an intermediate cartridge was postponed for 40 years ...
                      1. +1
                        7 May 2021 13: 29
                        Not a rifle, but a parachute. The Kotelnikov parachute was adopted during the Soviet era.
                      2. +2
                        7 May 2021 17: 19
                        developed without support. production began in the USSR at the Madsen plant instead of the Madsen machine gun. without the revolution, instead of Fedorov, we would have only Madsen. Fedorov, even if he wanted to, could not give such bribes as Madsen. so that under Tsar Nicholas we would suck the leg of a dead rabbit and would not have an intermediate cartridge.
                        1. -1
                          7 May 2021 22: 00
                          laughing and nothing that at the Madsen plant they began to do before the rifle revolution?
                        2. +2
                          8 May 2021 09: 54
                          Quote: Barberry25
                          laughing and nothing that at the Madsen plant they began to do before the rifle revolution?

                          on Fedorov's enthusiasm. in wartime with a weakened state machine. in a peaceful Fedorov would have been flying for another hundred years, and rather the VAR would have bought - the Russian-German tsars did not like their own.
                        3. -3
                          8 May 2021 09: 56
                          but if only mushrooms were growing in your mouth ... you have no idea what would have happened, but taking into account some aspects of what you wrote here, and did not try to understand. Russian-German tsars "very often fought with their cousins ​​...
                        4. 0
                          8 May 2021 12: 49
                          "Russian-German tsars" very often fought with their cousins ​​... "but because of selfish and ambitious interests. rarely did any of them think about the Russian people, at best they sometimes worried about the nobility. or are there examples? precisely because they did not want to what would have been superficial judgments and unreasonably haying of the SVD, mosinka and its patron, I wrote.criticism and objective comparison - yes, it's interesting
                        5. -3
                          8 May 2021 17: 21
                          laughing oh yes .. always someone is to blame ... you can not objectively criticize the revolution .. ah ah ah .. well, following your logic ... Russia does not exist, all the victories of "Russian weapons" are the victories of the Germans and "the history of Russia began in 1917 ".. and about" what was compared and when "... you decided to ask only when you were poked at it .. and then silly thoughts immediately began instead of waiting for an answer .. in general, we take a search and study history 6 mm rifle SVK, which was developed in the 80s to replace the SVD and work was carried out in the concept of a new cartridge + weapon ... but leave your inventions and do not put them on the general field ... you basically do not understand what you write ... Write more I won't, because it's a waste of time to have a conversation with a very stupid person like you
                        6. +1
                          8 May 2021 19: 28
                          Well, that is, you have confirmed my words. by the 80s there was already a design school in the USSR. and you compare a serial rifle with an experimental one. as I said, progress cannot be stopped and the designers continued to look for the best. and your manner is more and more like the manner of uneducated 12 year olds, sorry if it's too harsh)))
                        7. +1
                          8 May 2021 20: 14
                          and by the way I read about 6mm ... maybe good for sports. but for a real soldier, but not for special forces, a line infantryman needs a cartridge to be accurate enough at real ranges (up to 400m, 7,62 and 6mm are the same) could penetrate both armor and bricks. do not be afraid of the wind and branches. striking is also important. Well, as a last resort, borrow cartridges from machine gunners is also a plus. in general, work should be carried out continuously. but so far 6mm has more disadvantages than 7,62 for a private sniper.
                        8. -3
                          9 May 2021 14: 49
                          yeah, and then, as in Vietnam, they scratched their turnips and quickly began to make AK-74 from AKM ... By the way, the Americans are now actively testing 6 mm rifles .. And we, in principle, have no movements on this topic .. It is banal to load NII TOCHMASH R&D on study of trends and opportunities for the prompt creation of a response .. What to say .. only this year we decided to find out "is there a need for a collimator sight for a machine gun and at what range it will be effective" .. At one time, all work on new ammunition was curtailed because of poverty and "but everything needs to be re-equipped" .. And now what prevents at least one science from straining? Fortunately, the Soviet one remained huge .. but no, you need to dance around 7,62 ... And yes .. to 400 meters are already the distances of an ordinary shooter, the current realities oblige the sniper of the Marksman squad to work effectively at ranges of up to 800 meters ... Already now we have a situation that in the case of fire contact a la a US infantry platoon vs a platoon of RA motorized riflemen, the Americans will shoot clean due to the presence of op ticks on all weapons ... And with the input of 6 mm, they will work already from 600 meters due to the presence of smart sights ... And our generals still spank with a mitten and refuse to issue the optics to the soldiers and teach them to work with it ...
                        9. +2
                          9 May 2021 19: 12
                          I agree with you that it is impossible to stand still in military science. in Vietnam, the Amers understood what the Angles and Belgians were talking about, namely that their 7,62-51 (practically our 7,62-54) is not suitable for a line infantryman due to the impossibility of conducting aimed automatic fire from weapons of an acceptable mass. the infantryman really needs fire sometimes. ours also transferred an ordinary infantryman from a normal 7,62-39 to a somewhat better 5,45-39. RPK and minimi are also squad weapons, they are also chambered for a smaller cartridge. you're talking about the squad sniper. he is now considered to need a minimum of 7,62-54 or 7,62-51. because of the greater range and greater ability to break through obstacles, wind resistance. And they even tend to large calibers, but here it is necessary to maintain a balance of weight, size, and maneuverability. for snipers above the compartment, they definitely require large calibers, up to 12,7 and 14 and 20mm. but sometimes police snipers, again maybe 6mm caliber would do
                        10. 0
                          9 May 2021 19: 36
                          6 mm has a higher range and accuracy, due to the greater distance of direct combat, it is better suited for a squad sniper, for a full-fledged sniper, cartridges are already needed in caliber 8,6 Lapua and 12,7 mm ... And yes ... just for the police 6 mm will not work, because if you take a "police" operation, when you need to hit a terrorist from a couple of hundred meters, then you need something low-speed, but lethal and accurate .. The opinion that I heard from the shooters from the competition is that army snipers with SVD lose competition due to lack of accuracy over long distances and weak optics, and so that they can reliably hit, they need a Paw)
                        11. +2
                          9 May 2021 19: 58
                          apparently it is necessary to dance from the list of typical tasks and their volumes for the same police officer, sniper of the department, etc. about 6mm they write that its accuracy compared to 7.62-54 is better only up to 400m further 7.62 is better due to the mass. penetration of obstacles at 7,62 is better. for body armor, the armor-piercing 7,62 will probably be no worse than 6mm. it turns out for the police 6mm is just right: up to 400m, speed and low flatness are only a plus. a special bullet for a small ricochet, another for armored vehicles. size 7,62 -51-54 average, with self-loading rifle good for city and medium range. sights and collimators have been making with us for a long time, the question of course is why this business is not financed and controlled so little. but vabsche of course squeezed out of gunpowder almost everything. the matter for the next type of weapon. laser and something else.
                        12. -1
                          9 May 2021 20: 02
                          laughing I do not know where you read there, I personally read that at ranges of 400 meters, their accuracy is similar from a direct shot, but further at 6 mm everything is much better with accuracy ... And yes ... low speed? at 6 to 49 speed starts at 1150 meters, and at the SVD 810 meters per second ... You yourself understand that you obviously read the wrong thing ... By the way, in the 80s they actively worked not only on a sniper rifle, but also on a single machine gun and even an assault rifle ... speaks for itself that in the USSR they came up with the idea of ​​\ uXNUMXb \ uXNUMXbtransitioning an "average" intermediate cartridge
              2. +3
                6 May 2021 19: 26
                Where do you see the confusion of the February and October revolutions?
                PPT-27 is a completely different sample.
                The weapons school has not gone anywhere. The same Fedorov, together with his colleagues and students Degtyarev, Simonov, Shpagin, worked on many other subsequent models of small arms "that could" already in the early USSR.
                1. 0
                  6 May 2021 20: 21
                  only the quality fell and there was a refusal to switch to a new cartridge ... in fact, I had to tinker with Mosinka for 50 years, and still with the cartridge ... although modern rifles in 6,5 mm caliber are superior to the same SVD by tens of percent in accuracy and accuracy ..BUT, again the collapse of the country and plans to switch to a new caliber have gone into oblivion ...
                  1. 0
                    6 May 2021 23: 35
                    Most do not understand that they do not make revolutions because of a bad life. 70 years of propaganda have imprinted Bolshevik clichés. And everyone has forgotten how quickly the NEP raised the country. Or did not know.
                    The fact that Russia in 1915 was the leading power in the world can be found out by the one who was looking for, was interested.
                    As for the mistakes of Nicholas II, there were many of them, and one of the main ones was entering the war on the side of Great Britain.
                    Lenin lived quietly in London, but Britain later refused Nicholas ... hi
                    Eh, right now they will minus ...)))))
                    1. -1
                      7 May 2021 10: 17
                      revolutions are arranged with a weak government. The level of life here, in principle, is not important. If today the government were weak, then at least "a dollar of 15" the Americans pushed through the revolution and the overthrow .. because the revolution is not necessary, but certain groups
                      1. +1
                        7 May 2021 10: 54
                        Many years ago I came across the phrase: there are no "revolutions of hungry stomachs", there are revolutions when people lived well, they were promised that it would be even better, but they did not keep their promises.
                        I thought about it for 15 years until I agreed. hi
                    2. 0
                      7 May 2021 11: 53
                      Quote: Alex777
                      Most do not understand that because of a bad life, revolution is not done.

                      Quote: Alex777
                      The fact that Russia in 1915 was the leading power in the world can be found out by the one who was looking for, was interested.

                      Uh-huh ... uh-huh .... both in the USA and in France and in Germany and in the same Britain - probably they were "made" from the very rich life of peoples .... Only in Russia alone, life was probably good exactly during WWI - they took it, and they didn't give a shit, "made a revolution!"
                      "Leading Power of the World" - Republic of Ingushetia with a share of 85% of the rural population with a plow and a horse is cool. If anyone was interested, then the place was after France and Germany, not to mention the United States or Britain. Only in 1916 in Russia were they able to start the production of their domestic ball bearings (together with the Swedes, if anyone was interested).
                      In 1914 alone, Ford in the USA produced about 300 of its cars (Russo-Balt in Russia before 000 - about 1917, if anyone was interested).
                      Like that "Britain and the German General Staff paid Lenin for the creation of the Russian Federation in 1918 and the creation of the USSR in 1922" Bln-well, we have a dense people, just like in RI before 1917!
                      1. -2
                        7 May 2021 21: 34
                        For a start, read at least a history textbook of a pre-revolutionary edition. hi
                        I read. wink
                        1. 0
                          7 May 2021 21: 42
                          Quote: Alex777
                          For a start, read at least a history textbook of a pre-revolutionary edition.

                          And what, is there the ultimate truth? Read the census data in RI for 1897. A peasant country with an undeveloped industry.
                        2. -2
                          7 May 2021 22: 03
                          it remains to remember the names of the leaders of the English revolution who came out of ordinary people and who stood up for them ... but then you look, there was a stupid carve-up of the throne
                  2. 0
                    7 May 2021 17: 42
                    you are comparing the quality of the cartridge and weapon of 1900 and 2000 years. at that time everything was very up to par. switching to a different caliber means borrowing resources from an already lean economy, which means not doing, for example, T26, and there it may be the same T34. the transition must be justified and economically feasible. everything is just in hindsight. Yes, and you probably compare the SVD with a military cartridge and maybe a machine-gun cartridge with elite cartridges and rifles and not automatic and not with such a level of reliability? comparisons must be made, but correct.
                    1. -4
                      7 May 2021 22: 05
                      laughing no, they compared SVD with sniper cartridges with a rifle in a new caliber ... SVD is not a super wunderwolf .. You'd better ask what exactly were compared, and not your silly thoughts would lead
                      1. 0
                        8 May 2021 08: 31
                        what was compared with svd when and who? the Nazis believed in the wunderwafli. What did you want to say about SVD? that a wick pistol is better than a capsule one? or that the technique can develop gradually? for its period svd masterpiece. now the servant is quite worthy. progress is inevitable and now there are better examples. but this is not a reason to hait svd. to its patron in this class, the claim is odnorent. vabsche svd was created under the army of the USSR. under the concept, first an atomic strike. then an artillery, then a tank-helicopter, and then a sweep by an infantry squad in the battalion. That is, if something to move there beats and BMP and tanks and mortars. and the svd was in the section for the insurance of the pc. and the USSR could afford it. practically svd replacement of svt sniper, but not sniper mosinka. the fact that Fedorov substantiated the optimality of 6,5 mm and impulse weakened to 2000 kJ for automatic firing (which was very appreciated by the PPSh in urban battles), so he is revered for this. and his rifle is just a concept to support the theory. but we live in the real world. and even Americans' resources are limited, as they themselves cry. in general, I did not understand what kind of accents you wanted to place.
                        1. -1
                          8 May 2021 09: 51
                          "concept", which fought 4 after the wars and showed itself well, and I repeat, if you don't have enough mind to ask, don't come up with it ...
                        2. +1
                          8 May 2021 12: 40
                          did not fight, but tested. Fedorov's machine gun had critical remarks. but it normal. Kalashnikov was finished for ten years. from the standpoint of knowledge, you make everyone not very smart. but it is not. breech-loading guns, like rifles, are already five hundred years old. and they "began to play" when the conditions were ripe, 150 years ago. although their advantages were clear to everyone, turn it up to you)))
                        3. +1
                          8 May 2021 13: 00
                          and who, where and when, compared Svd and Siog to prove inferiority and by what criteria?
                        4. -3
                          8 May 2021 13: 20
                          laughing and still did not even ask what kind of rifle .. here you sit and talk to yourself .. you don’t need an interlocutor to write nonsense
                        5. +1
                          8 May 2021 13: 43
                          you are just an uneducated troll. I already asked literally how you said. and you have nothing to say except how to hait indiscriminately everything. you are not 12 years old? but that is very similar, sorry)))
            2. -1
              6 May 2021 19: 39
              Quote: daveduff
              rifle SVT-25

              From this place, you can get more details?
            3. -1
              8 May 2021 06: 15
              Perhaps you do not quite correctly understand the reasons for the 1917 revolutions.
              It was PMV that became the catalyst for revolutions.
              Moreover, IN ALL COUNTRIES THAT REALLY PARTICIPATED IN THE WAR.
              Similar problems were in Great Britain, Germany, Austria-Hungary, France, Italy.
              But, ALL REVOLUTIONS ARE DONE FROM TOP.
              None, "the lower classes did not want ..."
              The revolutions in Russia were organized and carried out from the outside, with the support of the fifth column inside the country. They planned to use Russia as a fuse for the implementation of the world revolution. A sort of reboot of the world order. Similar events (reboot) are happening now. Only as a thinner instrument is "covid" used.
              And only Stalin managed, and then for a while, to curb the Comintern.
              After eliminating it, the traitors went back to the original idea.
            4. 0
              1 June 2021 19: 27
              Where did you dig up this bullshit. What hunger. In 16 they reaped a powerful harvest. Although they still did not know what to do with the harvest in 14-15 years. Russia was sharpened to supply food to Europe. During the war, Russia had the cheapest meat and bread. The Baltic Fleet confiscated steamers with food and fattened the whole war. The famine in St. Petersburg and Moscow was artificially caused. And what about the "dirty ragamuffins" -that's a tin. In the winter, a hospital was organized and the princesses worked there. They did not hesitate to take out the pots .. Some units and the naval crew had several thousand people in their composition. did not want to go into the active army. Subsequently, the backbone of these loafers and stormed Winter.
      2. 0
        7 May 2021 07: 46
        Which one specifically
        Quote: Barberry25
        crying eh .. it's a pity that you can't see what happened to Russia if not the revolution .. it would be interesting
        ? Here you can recall the story about the gender of the grandmother ...)
        A chain of inevitable and interconnected events ... it's another matter who would stay in power in the end?
      3. +2
        7 May 2021 10: 33
        There would have been a revolution a little later. The revolution and the collapse of the empire were inevitable after the Decembrists were suppressed and the issue was not even the Decembrists, but serfdom, which was abolished too late and the most unsuccessful reform of the abolition of serfdom that could be thought of was chosen. Contradictions in society were not resolved, poverty, equality only intensified, RI would not have entered WWI, whatever happened later, whatever another mass famine would lead to an outbreak.
        1. -5
          7 May 2021 10: 54
          laughing Oh yes ... for almost a century the revolution was postponed .. Contradictions in society and the USSR, by the way, did not decide .. When did the peasants start issuing passports? So there were problems in the USSR, the difference was that in the Republic of Ingushetia the top weakened and could not hold on to power ... but in the USSR they were able to hold it for 75 years .. but then the top rotted away and everything fell apart .. so the revolution is not about the discontent of the masses, but about the weakness of the government
          1. +1
            7 May 2021 11: 09
            Everything was so, it was postponed for almost a century, although not without riots and uprisings, but ultimately with disastrous consequences for the Republic of Ingushetia. And my message is that it was not possible to avoid the revolution.
            so the revolution is not about the discontent of the masses, but about the weakness of the government

            and yes and no, the gendarmerie worked in Ingushetia, the workers' demonstration was shot without any sentimentality, in 1905-1907 the authorities defended themselves completely, but if the problems causing social tension are not solved, sooner or later everything will explode.
            1. 0
              7 May 2021 11: 46
              laughing Well, following this logic, we should have a revolution today ... because, as the opposition says, we live terribly, worse than ever .. The problem of power is not that there was a shooting in 1905, but that there was a struggle for power in the loires, instead of the systematic destruction of competitors ... which in fact led to the fact that the Petrograd soldiers showed their cowardice and did not want to go to the front, they had to pull the loyal units from the front to help ... but they could not get through ...
              1. -2
                7 May 2021 12: 06
                Well, you never know what the opposition says (by the way, who it is and what kind of support it has), I cannot speak exactly for Russian realities, but I suspect that they live in Russia better than they say, if we take as indicators, for example, sales of new passenger cars in year, housing, direction of labor migration, etc. Perhaps this is why there were no million-strong protests.
                1. -3
                  7 May 2021 12: 23
                  Well, the point is that if there was no strong government, then the Maidan would have been muddied long ago ... and then they would have already talked about the boys with blue skins
    4. +8
      6 May 2021 11: 43
      A little addition.
      I have never seen a bayonet to Fedorov's rifle.

      He was a talented person, sorry for the events that prevented him from realizing his ideas on a full scale.
    5. BAI
      +3
      6 May 2021 12: 35
      When Maxim demolished his machine gun, a representative of the Chinese delegation said that the machine gun fires too quickly for China.
      1. +10
        6 May 2021 13: 17
        The Estonian representative also supported the Chinese representative))
    6. Eug
      +3
      6 May 2021 12: 44
      I read that even the 7,62x54 cartridge could hardly "break through" because of the requirement to "stop the horse", but here it is 6,5 mm ...
      1. +3
        6 May 2021 22: 58
        Quote: Eug
        I read that even the 7,62x54 cartridge could hardly "break through" because of the requirement to "stop the horse", but here it is 6,5 mm ...
        This is a story about a Nagant revolver ...
        revolver cartridge
        Who tested the Nagant revolver when adopted by the RIA, is silent about the verification of such a requirement ...
        About the Fedorov assault rifle
        It was enough to do self-loading rifle - AUTOMATIC fire is needed for a light machine gun, and such a "handbrake" was in RIA - machine gun Madsen
        machine gun Madsen
        madsen machine gun
        They even began to build a plant for the production of Madsen in Kovrov, but did not have time before the Revolution.
        1. Eug
          +2
          7 May 2021 07: 01
          I agree about self-loading. "Solid" single fire is more effective than automatic fire in most situations. And it is easier from all points of view - design, production and financial.
    7. +1
      6 May 2021 16: 57
      And where is the nonsense?

      The production capacity for cartridges was not the same in 1913 and 1940. If so, 10 times are not the same.
      1. +4
        6 May 2021 17: 48
        The emperor meant that things were absolutely awful in the empire. There was no capacity for the production of everything that the army needed at that time, both shells and explosives and engines and cartridges and weapons. due to excessive liberality towards big business and elites. and at the same time a serf attitude towards the people. The elites were snickering at that time and did not keep their nose to the wind. for which they paid. however, considering the number of victims of ordinary Russians, they practically got out of the water and quietly fled abroad. ours are now smarter and keep families immediately abroad. and the Fedorov assault rifle is a Kalashnikov concept.
        1. +1
          6 May 2021 17: 52
          the Kalashnikov concern would make a copy of the Fedorov assault rifle in a hunting version. as a gift version. I think collectors would buy a thousand pieces?
          1. 0
            6 May 2021 21: 24
            It's scary to think what the price would be. I’m not saying that, in terms of labor costs, it’s not to cut down the AK, but to re-develop and bring a new design to the series (and for any modern plant it’s just a new design).

            It did not work out very well with VSS, although it would seem that it is mass-produced ...
            1. 0
              6 May 2021 23: 01
              Quote: Sancho_SP
              It's scary to think what the price would be. I’m not saying that, in terms of labor costs, it’s not an AK to burn down, but re-consider to develop and bring the design to a series ..

              well why, in the states they do. just in the conditions of the concern, maybe a small batch is not profitable. although just copy the design, well, of course, pick up the materials, but probably for such pros it will not be difficult, plus the copy will not be required to surpass the AK. well and hope are CNC machines. trunks are easier to buy from the side. You don't need a lot of cartridges for a copy, you can buy imported ones
              1. +1
                6 May 2021 23: 31
                "Just copying" a complex mechanical device is actually not so easy)

                Tolerances, thermal expansion of materials, wear resistance, springs, cartridge ... It's all quite selectable, it just requires thousands of man-hours and a couple of dozen prototypes, shots, etc. And they will want to recoup these costs not sometime later, but in a year or two. But whether there is even a hundred such collectors is a big, big question. See the situation with VSS.
                1. 0
                  6 May 2021 23: 44
                  how many will buy of course the question. cartridge 6,5 Arisaka probably produced? the construction is already there, it is in the museum. take such materials or better. taking into account modern knowledge, computer design and modern machine tools, it should be real. sales question.
        2. 0
          6 May 2021 21: 21
          Eka you dig deep)

          Everything is simpler, the technologies were different, the cartridges were more expensive per unit.
    8. 0
      6 May 2021 17: 46
      It's good to laugh now, when in the ammunition warehouses, I apologize, chew in one place. And once the cartridge famine was a harsh reality, and there was no talk of any "few cartridges, or not enough, but no more to carry away" until 1943-44. All the time before, from the moment the unitary cartridge appeared, our soldiers went into battle, at best, with a standard, specially lowered ammunition load, or even with half, or less.
      1. +1
        6 May 2021 21: 27
        Curiously, even now there are not so many of those patrons, as you put it. If we compare it with the expenditures of the WWII level, then it will not be enough for a year.

        Rifle models of the 45th year of production are no longer completely reliable, and in subsequent years they were produced at about the level of consumption.

        And pay attention, our favorite non-brother velikoukry for some positions are already purchased over the hill.

        So not everything is so simple.
        1. 0
          7 May 2021 05: 17
          Quote: Sancho_SP
          Curiously, even now there are not so many of those cartridges.

          What kind of "those"?
          1. +1
            7 May 2021 15: 16
            Anyone. Turnover of speech.
            1. 0
              7 May 2021 15: 20
              Quote: Sancho_SP
              Anyone. Turnover of speech.

              Do you mean to say that all the reserves of the USSR have already been sold? And at what expense is it "not enough for a year?"
              1. 0
                7 May 2021 15: 40
                Read the above again. At the expense of the BOB level.
                1. 0
                  7 May 2021 15: 43
                  Quote: Sancho_SP
                  Read the above again. At the expense of the BOB level.

                  Do you have information about stocks in warehouses and the scale of current production?
                  1. +1
                    7 May 2021 15: 49
                    There is information about the stocks and the scale of production in the USSR and at the time of 91-93 by countries. They are publicly available.

                    The current production, it must be understood, is clearly not higher than the Soviet one. Although, in fairness, the current data is not entirely open, especially in terms of special (subsonic and new armor-piercing).
                    1. 0
                      7 May 2021 15: 54
                      Quote: Sancho_SP
                      There is information about the stocks and the scale of production in the USSR and at the time of 91-93 by countries. They are publicly available.

                      Yes, just somehow did not come across ...
                      Quote: Sancho_SP
                      The current production, it must be understood, is clearly not higher than the Soviet one.

                      but here you can't even argue.
                      In general, everything is the same as everywhere else ... understandable ..
    9. +1
      6 May 2021 20: 51
      Quote: mark1
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      when shooting in bursts, no cartridges will be enough "

      These words have not been attributed to anyone since the end of the 19th century.


      And in principle they are right! Shooting from the hand, rifle cartridges are difficult to control with bursts of weapons (especially without any compensators). Bullets to the wind. When the intermediate cartridge was invented, things moved.
      1. -1
        7 May 2021 05: 16
        Quote: fa2998
        When the intermediate cartridge was invented, things moved.

        And what do you think is an "intermediate" cartridge?
        1. 0
          7 May 2021 05: 33
          All the same, you are on the military site, a low-impulse cartridge, a short sleeve (for example, instead of 54mm-39mm), the caliber can be left, or even reduced. Shoot with full-fledged rifle cartridges from ABC or SVT - that's really empty ammunition consumption.
          1. 0
            7 May 2021 05: 37
            Quote: fa2998
            You are all the same on the military site, a low-pulse cartridge, a short sleeve (for example, instead of 54mm-39mm),

            Yes, you don't feel that on the "military" ... In the "Mosin" cartridge and in the 7,62X41 (39) different gunpowder ...
            Quote: fa2998
            Shoot with full-fledged rifle cartridges from ABC or SVT - that's really a waste of ammunition.

            What was it for, to support the conversation or change the subject of the conversation?
      2. 0
        7 May 2021 05: 32
        If "-" is yours, then the question is repeated - what is your "intermediate" cartridge?
        1. +3
          7 May 2021 10: 58
          Quote: mat-vey
          If "-" is yours, then the question is repeated - what is your "intermediate" cartridge?


          Welcome.
          The minus is not mine, but since there is no answer, I will briefly explain.

          Intermediate cartridge - a type of cartridge for firearms, intermediate in power between pistol and rifle cartridges. The appearance of intermediate cartridges is due to the fact that by the mid-40s it became clear that pistol cartridges when fired from submachine guns have a low lethality at ranges of 300 m, and rifle cartridges have excess power for firing on the move and in automatic fire mode.


          An intermediate cartridge providing a lower recoil impulse in comparison with rifle ones, and a different type of bullet and higher power - allows you to remove the disadvantages of pistol, which are insufficient to ensure an effective range of fire of more than 200 meters. Plus, the aerodynamic properties of their short bullet also do not contribute to an increase in the aimed firing range.
          Examples of intermediate cartridges in different countries when used: Soviet 7,62x41 (1943; after 1947 - 7,62x39), Finnish 7,62x33 (1943), French 7,65x35 (1947), Swiss 7,5x38 (1952), etc.
          Modern examples:

          In Russia, the most common cartridge 5,45 × 39 mm for the Kalashnikov assault rifle, in NATO countries - cartridge 5,56 × 45 mm, 6.8 mm Remington SPC (6,8 × 43 mm) and 6,5 × 39 mm Grendel ( 6,5 × 39 mm). Effective firing range up to 300-500 meters.

          For pistol cartridges, the initial speed is usually in the range of 300-500 m / s, for intermediate - 700-1000 m / s.

          Well, for rifle cartridges, for today,
          four rifle cartridges are in use:
          7,5 × 55 mm - Swiss cartridge, used only by Swiss troops, displaced by 7,62 × 51 mm NATO;
          7,5 × 54 mm - French cartridge, gradually replaced by NATO's 7,62 × 51 mm NATO;
          7,62 × 51 mm - standard rifle ammunition for the armies of NATO, the Americas, US allies in East Asia (Japan, South Korea, etc.) and other countries;
          7,62 × 54 mm R - Russian cartridge common in the armies of the countries of the former USSR.
          1. +2
            7 May 2021 11: 17
            Quote: Orkraider
            intermediate in power between pistol and rifle

            Thanks for the details ... but this phrase would be enough ...
            Here is the cartridge of Arisak 6,5X50 (R) of the Sestroretsk plant, where "R" is Russia just in these parameters and falls ... So Fedorov, as a result of the alteration of his automatic rifle, turned out to be just something to eat "automatic" or how At that time, this class of weapons was called Assault phase rifle, which was born at that time.
            AK 7,62 PS
            Weight, kg - 4,8 (with an equipped magazine)
            Length, mm - 870/1070 (with bayonet)
            Barrel length, mm - 415
            Actual fire, m ~ 400
            Those. rate of fire, rounds / min ~ 600
            Muzzle velocity, m / s - 710-725
            Muzzle energy of a bullet, J - 1990—2080
            The mass of the cartridge, g - 16,5
            Bullet weight, g - 7,9
            Type of ammunition - box magazine 30 rounds

            Automatic Fedorov 6,5x50 mm Arisaka
            Weight, kg - 5,2 (with an equipped magazine)
            Length, mm - 1045
            Barrel length, mm - 520
            Actual fire, m ~ 400
            Those. rate of fire, rounds / min ~ 600
            Muzzle velocity, m / s - 660-770
            Muzzle energy of a bullet, J - 1950—2150
            The mass of the cartridge, g - 20
            Bullet weight, g - 8,9
            Type of ammunition - box magazine 25 rounds

            Sturmgewehr 44 7,92x33 Kurz
            Weight, kg - 5,2 (with an equipped magazine)
            Length, mm - 940
            Barrel length, mm - 420
            Actual fire, m ~ 400
            Those. rate of fire, rounds / min ~ 600
            Muzzle velocity, m / s - 680-690
            Muzzle energy of a bullet, J ~ 1900
            The mass of the cartridge, g - 16,7
            Bullet weight, g - 8,1
            Type of ammunition - box magazine 30 rounds
            1. +2
              7 May 2021 11: 38
              Yes, I agree. A lot of sources, namely the Fedorov assault rifle chambered for 6,5 × 50 mm (3100 J, providing a smaller recoil impulse due to the small caliber and weight of the bullet, and less power than 7,62 × 54 mm, 3600 J), are considered the ancestor of our schools of automatic weapons.

              Please note that the 2610 J, had a cartridge of Arisaki, it is weaker than the cartridge that Fedorov developed. The Japanese cartridge was smaller than Fedorovsky, and the rifles were adapted for it by inserting a special insert into the chamber.
              1. +1
                7 May 2021 11: 49
                Quote: Orkraider
                Please note that 2610 J, had a cartridge of Arisaki

                This is the energy of a cartridge loaded with Japanese or English gunpowder ... In St. Petersburg (Fedorov) set up production of Arisaka cartridges with Russian-made gunpowder - they had less power.
                In addition to shortening the sleeve, the Germans, when producing their "kurts", replaced rifle powder with a weaker one.
                In general, the concept of a rifle (machine gun) was born on the fields of WWI from the idea - the ability to conduct automatic fire from hands in motion ... Fedorov's idea was finally formed after a business trip to the front.
                1. +1
                  7 May 2021 13: 47
                  This is the energy of a cartridge loaded with Japanese or English gunpowder ... In St. Petersburg (Fedorov) set up production of Arisaka cartridges with Russian-made gunpowder - they had less power.


                  I'm probably in a hurry and write incorrectly)))
                  I meant that these are different cartridges.

                  The cartridge designed by Vladimir Fedorov had a bottle-shaped sleeve and did not have a protruding rim, the sleeve itself was quite long (57,1 mm) and was made of brass.
                  The cartridge created by Fedorov was more powerful than the Japanese ammunition - 6,5x57 with a muzzle of 3100 J. Due to the lack of possibilities for its production, the weapon was redesigned for 6,5x50 mm Arisaka, which, although they had worse characteristics, were available.

                  Yes, I write Fedorov's surname through E, since I write from the phone, and I work in parallel, I don't switch.

                  Comparison of cartridge 6,5x57 Fedorov and cartridge 6,5x50 mm Arisaka.
                  1. +1
                    7 May 2021 14: 55
                    Quote: Orkraider
                    I meant that these are different cartridges.

                    I know it ... and for a very long time ..
                    1. +1
                      7 May 2021 15: 34
                      I understand the purpose of your question to your opponent about the intermediate cartridge.
                      Have a nice day!
                      drinks
                      1. +1
                        7 May 2021 15: 39
                        Same to you...
                        PYSY - just why about in this issue people do not even think about the meaning of the term they use (by the way, the term is only the USSR).
              2. 0
                14 May 2021 06: 31
                Please note that he gave 2560 J with a one hundred and twenty-two caliber barrel: -D :-D
    10. +1
      6 May 2021 21: 29
      Quote: fa2998
      Quote: mark1
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      when shooting in bursts, no cartridges will be enough "

      These words have not been attributed to anyone since the end of the 19th century.


      And in principle they are right! Shooting from the hand, rifle cartridges are difficult to control with bursts of weapons (especially without any compensators). Bullets to the wind. When the intermediate cartridge was invented, things moved.


      Curiously, from the AKM, otherwise than lying from a stop at 50 meters, the result of hits is also dubious.
    11. 0
      13 May 2021 11: 42
      We need to think not about whether there are enough cartridges, but whether there are enough enemies for all of us armed with such weapons.
    12. -1
      14 May 2021 06: 15
      No, well, what the hell, I'm sorry? What else could any general of that time, and most of those present in his place, say? )) And Nikolai Alexandrovich was right, oh, how right! For the cartridges were really not enough. And since when did the obligatory muttering of a private dealer become a historical document? What is in reality? But in reality, a trial batch of 150 AFs begins to be manufactured in 1913. The product is technically complex and very laborious for a freelance patron. In a world war. How could it be otherwise ??
      1. 0
        7 June 2021 20: 11
        Quote: Alexetre
        And Nikolai Alexandrovich was right, oh, how right! For the cartridges were really not enough


        Yes, they were all "right"! Therefore, the Russian Empire collapsed and the USSR collapsed. What is the difference between our boss and the western boss?
        The fact that in the West such a person as Leskov's "Levsha" is paid well and is not rushed with results. And in Russia Lefty fell into a madhouse and stuck out of hunger.
        We treat the master as a slave; "Well, do you think about yourself? Undertook to build a tank, but it does not float and lags behind in speed from the car, but does not hold an armored cannon shot?"
        In the case of a machine gun, I must say so; "If there is not enough cartridges, your fault is the boss! I had to develop production, but what happened to the cha? A worthless dancer, even a good machine gun interferes ..."

        In the "land of slaves, the land of masters" it cannot be otherwise!
    13. 0
      25 May 2021 14: 33
      No one then simply did not understand what such a weapon was capable of. In general, weapons produced on the machines of the industrial revolution that began. The same Mosin rifle - the aiming range is declared as much as two kilometers! Why is this at all? As an infantryman's weapon, the Mosinka is monstrously redundant. However, the then military theorists believed that the infantry rifle should be just that.
      The fact is that military thought was completely unprepared for the twentieth century. Nobody knew anything. The First World War showed this very clearly. Looking at what is happening in this area now, it is simply impossible not to draw parallels)

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