Military Review

Ermak and the conquest of Siberia: and then there was a reason to doubt

63

The blogosphere is replete with the works of professional historians, amateur historians, historians who consider themselves professionals, as well as pseudo-historians. Everyone has their own goals. Someone is creating a superstructure over that history, which can be called canonical. Someone is trying to smash the works of historians of the past. The flight of thought in the end (if we talk about the history of our country) is wide - it stretches from the times of Rurik with disputes that there may not have been any Rurik at all, to “one rifle for three” during the Great Patriotic War.


One of the topics that is being analyzed is associated with the ataman Ermak (Timofeevich). The traditional historical narrative tells that this man annexed the Siberian kingdom (khanate) to Russia in the XNUMXth century. But the details of that campaign of Ermak, frankly, are scarce. Moreover, there are manuscripts and printed publications that, telling about the campaign of Yermak with a detachment to Siberia, are themselves dated at least to the XNUMXth century.

This gives rise to some historiography researchers to question the so-called official history of the conquest of Siberia. At the same time, Ermak himself is often considered either as a collective image of several people who went to conquer Siberia, or even as a hero of tales and epics that had little in common with a possible real prototype.

This kind of statements and "investigations" can be treated in different ways. However, there are those among them that draw special attention to themselves.

The plot "What Siberia did Yermak conquer?" on the channel "Chairman of SNT", where the author finds more than one reason to doubt the truth of the official historiography:

63 comments
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 2 May 2021 13: 37
    +15
    Well, now we got to Ermak.
    The history of Russia is subject to sophisticated attacks from all sides.
    The battles and battles for it are no less fierce than the battles in Stalingrad of the Red Army with the troops of Paulus.
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 2 May 2021 13: 45
      +7
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      The history of Russia is subject to sophisticated attacks from all sides.

      Without knowing his history, a person is like an orphan. Take away memory, history, culture, traditions, and that's it ... there are no people, but a faceless gray crowd of "qualified consumers" will remain. This is what they are trying to achieve, questioning various events in Russian history ...
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 2 May 2021 13: 57
        +10
        Take away memory, history, culture, traditions

        Zorich remembers the thing Axes and Lotuses .. There, the earthlings, who had lost the galactic war, were issued an ultimatum - to issue ALL historical cultural values ​​for destruction .. Manuscripts, paintings, sculptures, etc. .. Like - without all this, they themselves will soon degrade and bend ..

        Here we are too - they are clearly and systematically deprived of our great history .. So that our descendants can never rely on the deeds of their ancestors.
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 2 May 2021 14: 04
          +4
          Who is posting this crap? Studying history by ... Well, well!
          Quote: paul3390
          Here we are too - they are clearly and systematically deprived of our great history .. So that our descendants can never rely on the deeds of their ancestors.

          good
          Quote: Doccor18
          Without knowing his history, a person is like an orphan.

          good
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          The history of Russia is subject to sophisticated attacks from all sides.

          fellow
          I will add only one thing. One group of "historians" questions, the other makes one believe in the genius of the EBN reforms and the greatness of its center. They tear the soles on the move.
          1. Snail N9
            Snail N9 2 May 2021 14: 30
            +3
            I look at the chairman of SNT and other alternatives. At first with interest, now, more and more, with skepticism. The only thing that interests me is the buried cities and the oddities with the construction of famous historical buildings. The rest of them is far-fetched, such as an incomprehensible hobby for "star fortresses" as if they were "proof" of a "single" proto-civilization. " fortifications were erected according to approximately the same "textbooks", as the actual military science is also studied all over the world according to approximately the same textbooks. , and the details of the mechanisms and software. I would like to familiarize myself with the history and technology of the production of artillery pieces and shells for them before writing such nonsense. And yes, the towers that are of the "strange" type around the world were actually used to make bullets and fractions in a gravitational way, and are not “strange” constructions of “incomprehensible technology.” In general, alternative people I have more and more skepticism sis is called. But they also have quite sound theories and ideas, which, of course, require more careful study.
            1. Tatyana
              Tatyana 2 May 2021 14: 50
              +5
              In modern Russia, in which, according to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, there is no state national ideology, its place will gradually be taken by someone else's state ideology in all territorial and administrative national regions of the country. Namely.

              For example.
              In the education of the Russian Federation, history textbooks sponsored and introduced in the USSR / Russian Federation by the Soros Foundation exclude the significance and role of the victory of the USSR in WWII in favor of the USA, Great Britain and France. Putin recently drew attention to this and demanded to fix it. Soros educators, "fellows" raised a protest howl on the radio about this.

              The same is the case with the historical "research" of various kinds of chauvinists on the part of national minorities in the Russian Federation - for example, in the same Tobolsk.
              This is being done with the support of Turkey, the state ideology of which is based on the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood radical terrorist organization.
              With the help of this ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood to create the Great Turan, Turkey is clearing the local territory of Siberia from the Russians and Russia - which ultimately leads not so much in favor of Turkey and Erdogan, an adherent of the Muslim Brotherhood, but rather in favor of the United States. Clearing the territory of Russia for the United States with someone else's hands - the hands of Turkey and local Muslim chauvinists.
              At the same time, one should not forget that Turkey is, first of all, a NATO member! And Washington will not tolerate any Great Turan.

              And even if Erdogan is replaced in Turkey, the state ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood will remain in the heads of Tobolsk citizens and after a while will give its SEPARATIST shoots and fruits!
      2. depressant
        depressant 2 May 2021 14: 22
        +7
        The number of abbreviations surfing the Internet is annoying. The SNT chairman is the chairman of the Garden Non-Profit Partnership. Presumably, the name of the Internet resource was chosen with humor, or I didn’t have enough time to tell the truth.
        As for Ermak Timofeevich ... I am for the canonical history. Its continuous revision deprives a person of the roots that have already sprouted in their native land, makes his life platform shaky, increases the level of anxiety, and makes life prospects doubtful. Even if the set of "revealing information" passes by consciousness. But the subconscious is already hurt, and the "revelations" stored there have a negative impact on the person. They say, I kind of am in Siberia illegally. Like, this is not Russia. We ought to dump in the suburbs ...
        Maybe historians and pseudo-historians will have enough to put pressure on our psyche? All of today's Russia is the homeland of all the peoples inhabiting it. Every citizen of Russia, in whatever part of it he is, he is everywhere at home.
        But it is clear that the work of all these "pseudo-historians" is being carried out in order to prevent this from happening.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 2 May 2021 15: 01
          +4
          Quote: depressant

          As for Ermak Timofeevich ... I am for the canonical history. Its continuous revision deprives a person of the roots that have already sprouted in their native land, makes his life platform shaky, increases the level of anxiety, and makes life prospects doubtful.

          And ask this "Chairman of SNT" - why he is doing this, after all, he will not answer. Does he even understand that he will not find the truth in this matter? And yet it "exposes". What for? I think - you are right - to deprive a person of the "foundation of state. History" on which there is love for the Motherland and patriotism and other feelings, which are difficult to convey in words.
          And if he understands and still does, then definitely - a sent Cossack.
          1. depressant
            depressant 2 May 2021 15: 25
            +2
            And not necessarily. However, human stupidity and pettiness are obligatory, even pettiness of nature - there is always such a thing! And such a "nature", wishing to earn extra money, goes to the Internet, studies the needs and says to himself: "Aha! Here she is, a gold mine!" And due to the scarcity of this "nature", there will certainly be a gold mine supplying a fair number of subscribers like the notorious "nature".
            Here is a resource where two ladies cut soap with a knife. They just take a bar of some toilet soap and cut it. And nothing more. Do you know, colleague, how many subscribers they have in the world? Millions! And a fair amount of money is being rowed for advertising. Therefore, there were imitators and we.
            And if there are those - I won't even say that these are people who hate Russia, such people are generally incapable of deep feelings, except for themselves, loved ones and, accordingly, for fame and money - then why not catch glory and money for advertising?
            And these "natures" undertake to expose this and that just like work - work, do you understand? - for work that generates income - stupid, ugly creatures of the current era.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 2 May 2021 15: 42
              +2
              Why cut the soap?

              To think that the number of subscribers fundamentally affects something is not very serious.
              1. depressant
                depressant 2 May 2021 16: 16
                +2
                Sergey, I can explain the expediency of the behavior of a bee or an ant, but human meditation in the process of turning soap into shavings? Is that the bewitching monotony of action devoid of meaning. Something like hypnosis, in the process of which the meaning of one's own nonsense is comprehended. And if there was some kind of nonsense in the brain, it leaves the person, and he, looking at the number of subscribers to the action, begins to feel like a significant unit of a large community - the community of lovers of soap cutting. Apparently, it's like looking at fire.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 2 May 2021 17: 01
                  +3
                  I can understand how to look at the fire. Favorite hobby since childhood. And large numbers have a peculiarity - they increase. Why - I will not say for sure. They just grow.

                  The square presented itself. The side has slightly increased - and the area is growing.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 2 May 2021 18: 01
                    +3
                    Sergey! Stop imagining the square growing immediately! wassat )))
                    Otherwise, before you have time to look back, you will first find yourself in the sect of soap cutters, and from there it is already close to the sect of the Chairman of the SNT, which may not be at all a harmless bunch of garden tree lovers, but Scientologists (hence SNT). They say that Scientologists are such a sect that makes a person her slave for life, there is no way out.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 2 May 2021 18: 03
                      +2
                      Not. As the Holy Fathers said from "Philosophy".
                      "I have many sins, but not a heretic."
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 2 May 2021 18: 10
                        +3
                        You know, if you scrape anyone who declares himself sinless, you can scrape together a lot, but something will turn out to be completely unrecoverable. wassat )))
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 2 May 2021 18: 49
                        +3
                        Reasonable people do not declare themselves sinless.
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 2 May 2021 19: 09
                        +2
                        Well, there, they are presenting Kudrin to us as a successor (such a state position). They say sinless. And scrape?
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 2 May 2021 19: 17
                        +2
                        Kutuzov from "Hussar Ballad":

                        “I don’t believe in sinless people.
                        Himself sinful ”(c).
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 2 May 2021 19: 46
                        +3
                        Eck, you, my friend! Those people were - sinners, seen in greatness. And somehow I don’t want to scratch at their sins. For the empire was left to us.
                      6. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 2 May 2021 20: 09
                        +2
                        In general, this leads to backbiting - a dubious quality.
                      7. depressant
                        depressant 2 May 2021 20: 28
                        +3
                        Backbiting is a scraper, an instrument of useful truth.
                      8. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 2 May 2021 21: 11
                        +1
                        The actions may be the same, but the motivation and consequences are completely different.
                      9. depressant
                        depressant 2 May 2021 21: 14
                        +3
                        We wanted the best, but it turned out as always (c).
                      10. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 2 May 2021 23: 56
                        +1
                        Yes. Chernomyrdin's aphorisms are perfected.
                      11. depressant
                        depressant 3 May 2021 06: 57
                        +2
                        Life is a good master. Only sometimes, having undertaken to hone something, he cannot stop.
                      12. Phil77
                        Phil77 3 May 2021 08: 42
                        +2

                        Good morning Lyudmila Yakovlevna! Have you received the file? I sent it.
                      13. depressant
                        depressant 3 May 2021 08: 52
                        +2
                        Seryozha !!! Which file? My mail ignores me. At first, she considered me a robot, pondered my answers for a long time, how many pedestrian crossings, motorcycles, etc. I see. Then, having decided something for myself, I stopped all my attempts to send or receive something somewhere. Just send the title of the book, I'll look for it on the Internet)))
      3. Phil77
        Phil77 3 May 2021 08: 32
        +2
        I also love to sin! Hello friends! laughing
      4. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 May 2021 08: 56
        +2
        Good morning, Seryozha.
        Hope it's kind.
      5. Phil77
        Phil77 3 May 2021 09: 10
        +2
        As a poet to a poet, present, from ..... ellipsis.
        Yes, it happened!
    2. depressant
      depressant 3 May 2021 08: 57
      +2
      Well, here's the sinners club assembled! You can do political crafts from scrap materials.
    3. Phil77
      Phil77 3 May 2021 09: 14
      +1
      Nah, I haven't gotten to the right condition yet.
    4. depressant
      depressant 3 May 2021 09: 49
      +1
      An extremely expressive answer! Express yourself further! In this case, what is allowed to Caesar is even more allowed to a subject, hehe!
    5. Phil77
      Phil77 3 May 2021 10: 43
      +2
      Heh, heh, heh. And again heh, heh, heh,!
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you cannot imagine what pleasure I find communicating with you!
    6. Phil77
      Phil77 3 May 2021 10: 46
      +2
      In general, thank God and the site that we have such a * historical * * kumpaniya *. Glad to communicate! Always.
    7. depressant
      depressant 3 May 2021 11: 48
      +1
      Seryozha, immediately stop handing out definitions that could have been applied to me twenty years ago, but not to the one that I have become by now. Do not dishonor my gray hair. This is the second warning from me to you!
    8. Phil77
      Phil77 4 May 2021 10: 31
      +1

      Morning / afternoon / kind / kind /! I really appreciate your comments, is it possible? wink
    9. depressant
      depressant 4 May 2021 11: 19
      +1
      Seryozha, good morning! It is possible and necessary. How could you think that I am offended by you? love )))
    10. Phil77
      Phil77 4 May 2021 12: 04
      +1
      And there was no thought!

      Both. love
    11. depressant
      depressant 4 May 2021 12: 31
      +1
      Butyka didn't guess ...)))
      And I read on a neighboring topic what is being done in India, as well as comments, and immediately a ditty was composed:

      I did not take root from covid,
      I don't wear gloves
      I plunged my face into a mask,
      Bribes are smooth from me!

      But she did not dare to place her mockery in the comments, the angry people would trample. Meanwhile, what still remains for a truly Russian person, except to laugh at the misfortune, which, if it comes, it will not be fun because one on one with her.

      A friend's breath won't help
      will not give the coveted oxygen,
      and I will be disheartened
      with crosses a quiet vegetable garden.

      wassat )))))
    12. Phil77
      Phil77 4 May 2021 13: 51
      +1
      My friend! Well, her, entu India! I really can't believe that a country with a thousandth / or more? / Civilization is capable of living in mud.
    13. depressant
      depressant 4 May 2021 14: 52
      0
      Seryozha, our mortality rate is higher in percentage terms than in unscrupulous India.
      The rate of increase in mortality, which has been recorded over the past months, is unprecedented since 1947, when the USSR experienced massive famine due to drought, the end of food supplies under Lend-Lease and the creation of grain reserves in case of a new war.

      The numbers are terrifying, available in open sources. In December last year, this is 63% in annual terms. In March, "only" - 33%.

      From the data for the first quarter of this year:
      18 648 - that much more people died in March than in February. Indians give birth, we do not. For the second quarter (April, May, June) it will become known only in July.
  • vvp2412
    vvp2412 3 May 2021 10: 48
    +2
    You are wrong about this particular video. Here is a comparison of several sources, on the basis of which the official history is built. And they all differ! And if the sources are different, which one is correct? And why is he !?
    And given that our history was written by the Germans during the reign of the Germans (Catherine, Elizabeth) and others. So, the conclusions suggest itself: was it really that way, as the Germans wrote to us?
    Considering that old manuscripts were collected all over the country and then burned !?
    1. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
      Andrey Krasnoyarsky 3 May 2021 16: 06
      +1
      Could you clarify when V.N. Tatishchev, M.V. Lomonosov, I.N. Boltin, Prince M.M. Shcherbatov, N.M. Karamzin, who created Russian history in the 18th and early 19th centuries. And could you name at least one German of the 18th century and the name of his work (s), which fully describes the history of Russia? Precisely completely - from the pre-ruik times to at least Peter the Great, or even to the 17th century. And not separate fragments of Russian history and statements on individual problems (therefore, Bayer, Miller, Schletzer, Taubert, Strube de Pyrmont and others should not be proposed). If you can, you will become a discoverer and author of a sensation, since no one knew a single 18th century German who painted the whole of Russian history.
  • Nikolay Ivanov_5
    Nikolay Ivanov_5 2 May 2021 14: 14
    +3
    Dogs doubt, but Russia was, is and will be !!! angry
  • tatra
    tatra 2 May 2021 14: 19
    +2
    Anti-Sovietism is always equal to Russophobia. The enemies of the communists who seized the USSR hate Russia and the Russian people, they hate both Soviet history and the centuries-old history of the Russian State before the October Revolution, and after their capture of the RSFSR / Russia, they immediately began to inspire the Russian people that they had nothing to be proud of in their history, but you just have to "repent" for her.
    1. A. Privalov
      A. Privalov 2 May 2021 14: 36
      0
      Quote: tatra
      The enemies of the communists who seized the USSR hate Russia and the Russian people,

      Wait, madam, Yermak Timofeevich, it seems, was not a communist. Or am I missing something?
      1. tatra
        tatra 2 May 2021 14: 44
        -1
        Apparently, your intelligence was not enough to understand what I wrote.
        1. A. Privalov
          A. Privalov 2 May 2021 14: 50
          +1
          Quote: tatra
          Apparently, your intelligence was not enough to understand what I wrote.

          Indeed, I have not comprehended all the depth and grandeur of your thought, madam!
          So what about his party affiliation? Why did these damned anti-communists who seized the USSR so disliked him?
          1. tatra
            tatra 2 May 2021 15: 08
            +2
            If you don't understand, then I explain - the enemies of the communists who seized the republics of the USSR, the countries of Eastern Europe, and the enemies of the communists in the West, especially after the destruction of the USSR, proved that they hate any Russia and the Russian / Russian people - under any government and any social system, history and culture - both the Soviet and the centuries-old history of the Russian State before the October Revolution, including Yermak. So understandable, or explain 100 again?
            1. A. Privalov
              A. Privalov 2 May 2021 17: 23
              -2
              With your permission, I summarize and summarize:
              The enemies of the communists who seized the republics of the USSR, the countries of Eastern Europe, and the enemies of the communists in the West, especially after the destruction of the USSR, proved that they hate any Russia and the Russian / Russian people - under any government and any social order, history and culture - as Soviet and centuries-old history of the Russian State before the October Revolution, including, and ...... (insert desired)..

              Congratulations, madam!
              You have created a universal denouncer template that incriminates the enemies of communists of all stripes and shades, of all times and peoples! It will surely enter the treasury of historical quotes and definitions along with the sacramental "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam!"
              Thank you for your time. Kisses to the hands, madam! love hi
              1. tatra
                tatra 2 May 2021 17: 46
                +1
                Ha, if in your "refutation" of my words there is only senseless criticism of me, then this means that I am RIGHT.
                1. A. Privalov
                  A. Privalov 2 May 2021 18: 55
                  0
                  Madam, I am not refuting anything, I have not a word against it. You are absolutely right. How the late Zadornov was right: “Russia is a great country with an unpredictable past!"
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 3 May 2021 09: 56
                    +2
                    It's amazing how this * madam * got the high title * Best Commentator *?!?! Or ..
                    site decoding? Thank God that there are still sane people on it.
                2. Phil77
                  Phil77 4 May 2021 14: 39
                  0
                  Irina! This is the question that torments me, from the day I read your comments. You, personally, were you in the ranks of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union? flew away from the party for discrediting it. You see, yes? Your slogans are flawed. Naftalin. And then deeply weathered, old. Try to keep up with the times, new thoughts, new reasoning. Do you understand, no?
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 3 May 2021 08: 57
            +2
            Alexander! Do not try to prove anything to this * person *, it is not it. For all and forever! Completely! laughing
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 3 May 2021 11: 20
          +1
          And you? At least approximately, but understand, my God, and I wrote this?!?!
  • Intruder
    Intruder 2 May 2021 14: 24
    +2
    Siberians, with a grin, look how to the Urals there and in those territories, everyone who can look for all sorts of inconsistencies, when and who and for what purposes inhabited our Siberia-mother!
    Although, if we discard the advertising campaign of this channel, with merch, I used to watch for entertainment on winter evenings in Siberia, by the way wink ! That as a person with one of the diplomas of history with a specialization: "History of Russia" ...: fancy fiction for the Central Asia of this channel, the author tells there ... laughing
  • Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    Andrey Krasnoyarsky 2 May 2021 15: 43
    +3
    Let's start with the fact that the manuscripts telling about Yermak's campaign are dated not to the 18th, but to the 17th century. These are the Stroganov and Esipov chronicles. The first was compiled in the 30s. 17th century, the second - in 1636. There is no reason to doubt their authenticity, both have undergone a thorough examination. In addition, there is also the Synodik for the Yermak Cossacks, compiled in 1622. The surviving Yermak Cossacks took part in the compilation of the Synodik. It lists the dead soldiers of Ermak's detachment and describes the circumstances of their death. The synodic was compiled for the commemoration of those killed in the church service, so there is no place for fantasies and conjectures. In the same 17th century, the Kungur Chronicle was compiled, which also speaks of Ermak. Plus to this - Ermak is reflected in the folklore of the Siberian Tatars. There is no doubt about the reality of this person and the very fact of his campaign, except that some circumstances of the Siberian epic of Yermak are debatable and unclear. Well, the tales of half-educated people who have no idea about historical sources, but who imagine themselves to be great refutes, have nothing to do with either history or science in general.
    1. depressant
      depressant 2 May 2021 16: 58
      +1
      Wagner

      However, is there anything nicer in the world,
      Than to be carried away into the spirit of the past centuries
      And deduce from their works,
      How far have we gone forward?

      Faust

      Oh yes, of course, until the moon itself!
      Do not touch the distant antiquity.
      We cannot break her seven seals.
      And what they call the spirit of the times,
      There is a spirit of professors and their concepts,
      Which these gentlemen are inappropriately
      They give out for true antiquity.

      Goethe, "Faust".
  • Peaceful SEO
    Peaceful SEO 3 May 2021 15: 50
    0
    What for such articles? Not only is the topic itself rotten, but also the video was slipped
  • AC130 Ganship
    AC130 Ganship 4 May 2021 03: 44
    +3
    People know history the way they were taught in school. For example, in the late 70s and early 80s, I taught about the Great October Revolution. And after only 10 years I met my former teacher and she told me that teachers do not know at all what to teach from history now. It turned out that there were more stories about 1917 than the truth.
    What am I doing? Yes, that's what. Russians are taught one thing. And there are about 140-145 million of them. The same amers are taught in their schools quite differently: WWII was won by the allies with some help from the USSR. If you repeat this to a person for 10 years, do you think he will doubt that this is not so? Amerov 330 million. About the Kursk Bulge or Stalingrad or Rzhev, none of them (well, except for professionals or those who are interested) have never heard of them. And will not hear
  • sleeve
    sleeve 5 May 2021 05: 43
    0
    What America did Columbus discover? What kind of plane did the Wright brothers build? Etc...