General Pavlov as responsible for all

127
General Pavlov as responsible for allUntil now, the debates of researchers and all those who are interested in the military history about the events connected with the initial period of the Great Patriotic War. Especially everything connected with the disaster on the Western Front, which was created on the basis of the Western Special Military District, a disaster that has become one of the most tragic pages in the history of the initial period of the war. When literally during the first week, on June 28, Minsk and Bobruisk were captured by the enemy. To the west of the Belarusian capital, the 3 and 10 armies were surrounded, and the remnants of the 4 army were transferred to Berezina. The threat of a quick exit of mobile units of the enemy to the Dnieper and their breakthrough to Smolensk was created.

The events developed rapidly, and already on July 4, on the way to Gomel, where the headquarters of the Western Front were located at that time, General of the Army D.Pavlov, the commander of the Western Front, was arrested. The arrest procedure was supervised personally by the head of the Red Army Political Propaganda Directorate, Army Commissioner 1, rank Mehlis, who was also appointed a member of the military council of the front. He was also instructed to determine the circle of persons from the commanding staff of the front, who together with the former commander were to appear before the court. As a result, in addition to Pavlov, the chief of staff of the front, Major General V.Ye. Major General A.T. Klimovskiy, Head of Communications Grigoriev, commander of the 4 Army, Major General A.A. Korobkov and a number of other military leaders. All of them were removed from their posts, and then put on trial by the military board of the Supreme Court of the USSR and shot.



Is still not clear and controversial characteristic of the military commander, whom Stalin entrusted at that time one of the most important military districts of the country? The district, which was the second in number of troops, and in importance of the strategic direction, perhaps even the first, who is General Pavlov? What do we know about this person, besides the fact that he did not cope with his duties as a commander, that he had lost control of the troops. As a result, the Red Army suffered an unprecedented heavy defeat. In total for 17 days from 625 thousand people of fighters and commanders, the Western Front lost about 420 thousands of personnel! As a result, Pavlov came under fast trial and execution.

Who is he, Dmitry G. Pavlov? Studying his biography, it is clear that there is nothing particularly prominent in it, an ordinary biography, like all military commanders of the time. Born into a peasant family, in World War I volunteered to the front. In the tsarist army he was promoted to senior non-commissioned officer. He was wounded in 1916 year and captured, released after the end of the war. From 1919, in the Red Army, during the Civil War from 1918 to 1920, he was a platoon commander, squadron, assistant regiment commander. Entered the VKP (b) in 1919 year. The same biography in Zhukov, Konev, Rokossovskogo.
Some researchers impute ignorance and lack of military education to Pavlov. However, from the biography it is clear that he graduated from the 24 th Omsk Infantry School named after the Comintern, the Military Academy. MV Frunze and academic courses at the Military Technical Academy, so education for those times is quite sufficient. Zhukov, for example, did not even have an academic education, but this did not prevent him from leading the General Staff of the Red Army.
An interesting fact from the biography of D. Pavlov. From November 1937 to June 1940 he headed the Armored Directorate of the Red Army, and during this very short time Dmitry Grigorievich showed himself to be a pretty good theorist of application tank troops and tanks on the battlefield. It was he who first announced the need for a radical revision of tank armament, Pavlov suggested that the infantry escort tanks, which at that time included the T-26, should be left to the infantry, and the T-28 and T-35 should be armed with a 76-mm cannon, in addition, to replace this two tanks, he proposed to develop a new heavy breakthrough tank. The main tank of the Red Army T-34 was also created on the instructions and requirements of the then head of the Red Army ABTV Corps Commander D. Pavlov.

A lot of controversy caused and continues to cause the decision to disband the tank corps in the Red Army before the beginning of the war, many believed that it was almost a betrayal. However, it is not so simple, it is interesting that D.Pavlov was one of the initiators of this decision. It was at his suggestion that instead of the disbanded directorates of the 4-x tank corps, 15 divisions were created, which surpassed the disbanded corps in the number of tanks, in combat power, and in the ability to conduct combat operations. The principle of using tank brigades and motorized divisions according to Pavlov assumed that they could be included in the composition of rifle corps, combined-arms armies and fronts, and also to be kept in reserve for the High Command. What is most interesting, these and many other proposals of D. Pavlov were later implemented not only in the Red Army, but also by our main adversary, the German Wehrmacht. The Germans during the attack on the Soviet Union according to the Barbarossa plan all their tank divisions, which had 150 tanks on average, brought the groups into the 4 (analogous to the EPR-Echelon of the development of the Pavlov breakthrough), according to this principle, they used tank forces and in the German tank army " Africa "under the command of the famous Field Marshal E. Rommel.

As can be seen from these examples, Stalin, appointing D.Pavlov to the post of commander of one of the main military districts of the country, apparently took into account that he was a fairly competent military commander who was strategic in thinking. As for the presence of combat experience and especially the experience of leading large unions, here, by all appearances, there was indeed the most vulnerable place in D.Pavlov’s personal readiness as commander. But whether it was decisive, in that further tragedy of Pavlov as a general of the army, commanding the Western special district, the question has not been solved until now. Few of the then Soviet generals had such an experience, very little, only Shaposhnikov’s name comes to mind, and the fact that he is a pure general staff officer and not a commander.

Further, from the biography of D.Pavlov, it is known that at the beginning of the 20-ies he served and participated in combat operations in Turkestan against Basmachany gangs in the posts of assistant regiment commander, fighter squadron commander and cavalry regiment commander, and from 1928, D.Pavlov the commander of the cavalry and mechanized regiments, the commander and commissar of the mechanized brigade, in this position in 1929, took part in the armed conflict against the Chinese on the CER. In 1936 — 1937 during the Spanish Civil War volunteered to fight on the side of the Republican government, was the commander of a tank brigade. From these facts it is clear that D.Pavlov was really a brave man, he went through many, as they say, “hot spots”, but at the same time he had the experience of commanding only a regiment brigade and nothing more. This conclusion is confirmed in particular by the memorandum of Colonel-General L. Sandalov, submitted by him to the Chief of the Military Scientific Directorate of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces from September 1 1956 of the year, which, in particular, states:

“Army General Pavlov, having no experience in commanding military units (excluding command for a short time by a tank brigade), after participating in the war in Spain, was appointed chief of the ABTU of the Red Army, and a year before the war - commander of the forces of ZOVO. Having neither experience in troop control, nor sufficient military education and a broad operational horizon, Army General Pavlov was confused in the difficult circumstances of the initial period of the war and let go of troop control. ”

And where at that time Stalin was to find commanders with a general staff education, experience in command of armies and fronts, so D.Pavlov was the military commander of his time and he was not the only one to blame for the fact that the enemy chose the direction of his main attack precisely in the direction of the location of the Western Special District commanded at the time it was he.

According to some modern researchers, allegedly the main fault of Pavlov was, first of all, that he did not comply with the Directive of NGOs and General Staff from 12-13 in June 1941 of the year, ordering the command of Zapov, ordering to increase combat readiness to begin the nomination of parts of the district to the defense lines according to the cover plans of NGOs and General Staffs worked out on the basis of the May Directive. However, the facts indicate that in mid-June 1941, D.Pavlov sent two codes to the People's Commissariat of Defense asking for the withdrawal of troops to field positions and even tried to get permission to partially mobilize parts of the district, he also asked to strengthen the district with communications and tanks.
Also, according to these researchers, Pavlov, after receiving the Directive from 12-13 in June, did not give the command to withdraw three divisions from the Brest region, which are located there for the construction of fortifications, in a timely manner. As a result, these three divisions - one tank and two rifle, intended to cover the Brest direction, were destroyed during the first days of the war, which was the main reason for the defeat of the troops of the entire Western Front and thus opened the enemy an important strategic direction to Minsk - Smolensk - Moscow .

In this regard, the following questions immediately arise. Where then was the General Staff of the Red Army, which was responsible for the strategic deployment of troops, in whose hands was all intelligence information? Why wasn’t the district commander given prompt instructions to withdraw troops from the Brest area? Where was the Commissariat of Defense? And these questions, where and why many, clear, specific answers to them do not.

There are also those researchers who claim, relying on a list of certain facts, even about the betrayal of some part of the generals and commanders of a different level on the eve of the war, and especially in its first days. For example, they cite the facts of the allegedly malicious withdrawal of military units from the border right in the first minutes of the war, with the result that the already small and poorly armed units of the border guards remained alone with a hundred times greater than their enemy. As a result, none of the 435 border posts on the western borders, unlike the troops of the Red Army, did not depart without orders, many border guards died in battle, fulfilling their military duty to the end.

It is also interesting that Pavlova was not judged by the famous 58 article of the Criminal Code. In the course of a closed court session of the Military Collegium of the USSR Supreme Court 22 July 1941, the articles of the Criminal Code were reclassified, for which the command of ZAPOVO was accused. They were arrested on charges of crimes under Art. 63-2 and 76 of the Criminal Code of the Byelorussian SSR (analogue of the famous article 58 in the Criminal Code of the RSFSR). However, a severe sentence was imposed on the basis of Art. 193-17 / b and 193-20 / b of the Criminal Code of the RSFSR. The wording of the conviction in the sentence was as follows: “for cowardice, inaction of the authorities, indiscriminate behavior, assumption of the collapse of command and control, surrender weapons to the enemy without a fight, the unauthorized abandonment of combat positions by units of the Red Army and the creation of the enemy's ability to break through the front of the Red Army. ”
“Creating the enemy an opportunity to break through the front of the Red Army” was charged only to Pavlov himself as the commander of the Western Front.

Stalin, instructing the retraining of the crime command of the Western Front to other articles of the Criminal Code, thus made it clear to the generals that he did not intend to arrange global force dismantling with him, especially like 1937, but, if necessary, he could easily do without the famous 58-th article.

31 July 1957 of the Year The Military Collegium of the USSR Supreme Court made the decision that the sentence of 22 July 1941 was canceled due to newly discovered circumstances and the case was terminated due to the absence of corpus delicti. Dmitry Pavlov was posthumously restored to military rank.

The question of who is primarily responsible for the defeat of June 1941 of the year, so still remains open.
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  1. 8 company
    +5
    30 August 2012 09: 43
    "The question of who is primarily responsible for the June 1941 defeat remains open to this day."

    The main responsibility is borne by the commander-in-chief, who incompetently intervened in military planning, destroyed a huge layer of military managers, and held the post of People's Commissar of Defense from 25 to 40 AD. stupid, but deeply loyal "sidekick" Voroshilov and a lot of other things. Not a single military genius in Pavlov's place would have been able to do anything. In 1941, ours retreated in all directions in almost the same way: in the Baltics, in Belarus, in the Ukraine.
    1. DYMITRY
      +13
      30 August 2012 10: 55
      Quote: Company 8
      In all directions, our retreats in 1941 are almost the same: in the Baltics, in Belarus, and in Ukraine.

      Oh, don’t tell me how many kilometers the Germans advanced in the Baltic states before the front was broken through on the territory of the western special? Or from the Finnish border? In other directions? I emphasize before breaking into the Western special
      1. 8 company
        -3
        30 August 2012 13: 27
        Quote: DYMITRY
        I emphasize before breaking into the Western special


        And what difference does it make to you - before or after? These 3 directions did not have close contact with each other, as they were separated by difficult conditions of theater of operations. In the Baltic States and Ukraine, the Germans in the summer of 41 achieved even greater efficiency, because they acted there with much less forces than in Belarus.
        1. DYMITRY
          +2
          30 August 2012 14: 28
          Quote: Company 8
          And what difference does it make to you - before or after?

          Yes you are a strategist !!! Suvorov, Kutuzov and Zhukov nervously smoke in the corner looking at you and desperately envy the military genius of the 8th company !!!! What tried to close the hole in the area of ​​the western special? where did the troops and equipment come from? Or did they produce it on the spot? After such questions as an eternal ignore, as a person who generally does not understand what is at stake, but is trying to prove something. Thickly troll.
          1. 8 company
            0
            30 August 2012 14: 38
            Quote: DYMITRY
            After such questions to the eternal ignore, as a person who does not understand what is at all


            Yes, for God's sake, I will be happy only.
        2. Almaty man
          +12
          30 August 2012 14: 41
          Learn the history, in Ukraine, the troops of the Danube flotilla and border guards not only repelled the Nazi attack, but also went on the offensive on the other side, the territory of Romania, an ally of Germany
      2. +2
        1 October 2016 10: 03
        Their main direction was to Moscow through Belarus through it and the main blow was and the Soviet General Staff thought through Ukraine since in Belarus there are a lot of swamps and the machinery gets stuck and they took and passed
      3. 0
        11 October 2016 18: 49
        Well, that’s not quite true, the Germans broke into the ZOV, but already in July-August they entrusted part of the troops to Kiev, and the attack on Moscow was postponed until September 30.09.1941, XNUMX! If I were an adviser to the Führer in those days, I could persuade him not to make this mistake, and the course of world history would develop differently! ...
        1. 0
          8 February 2019 20: 43
          really sorry ... with such advisers and enemies are not needed
    2. +22
      30 August 2012 11: 11
      There really are still people who believe in the genius of Blucher, Tukhachevsky and Dybenko.
      1. Larus
        +4
        30 August 2012 11: 48
        If they would have executed others, stories about their genius would have been written. The difference for some is only in the surname ....
        1. Taratut
          +2
          30 August 2012 14: 59
          Why shoot someone? Or is that how it is? By all means?
      2. +6
        30 August 2012 14: 38
        You write as if they shot only these three. But in reality they took the whole environment, including subordinates and relatives.
        The same Rokossovsky could have been spanked if he had signed the protocol, unable to withstand the beatings.
      3. Taratut
        +3
        30 August 2012 14: 58
        We didn't have geniuses. They fought with those who are. Remember how Stalin wrote to Mehlis "I have no Hindenburgs for you." There are Zhukovs capable only of frontal attacks and yelling "Hold on at any cost!"
        1. Zynaps
          +4
          31 August 2012 03: 21
          Quote: Taratut
          There are Zhukovs capable only of frontal attacks and yelling "Hold on at any cost!"


          you need to snatch a candlestick to beat for stupid lies.

          Myth 1. Zhukov was not a brilliant commander, but a “butcher,” who achieved success due to the high losses of his soldiers.

          This is not true, as well as the fact that Zhukov received this nickname at the front. Zhukov always tried to protect the soldiers, as evidenced by the following:
          - Near Moscow, Zhukov directly and firmly pointed out to his subordinates in a decree of January 27, 1942 to the commander of the 49th army:

          Failure to fulfill the tasks of the 49th Army, heavy losses in personnel are explained by the exceptional personal guilt of the division commanders, who still grossly violate Comrade Stalin’s instructions and front orders on massing artillery for a breakthrough, on tactics and techniques of attacking the defense in settlements. For many days parts of the 49th Army have been criminally conducting head-on attacks on the settlements of Kostino, Ostrozhnoe, Bogdanovo, Potapovo and, having suffered enormous losses, have no success.

          It should be clear to every elementary military literate person that the above villages represent a very advantageous and warm defensive position. The area in front of the villages is under full shelling, and, despite this, criminally conducted attacks continue at the same place, and as a result of the stupidity and lack of discipline of the unfortunate organizers, people are paid in thousands of lives, without bringing any benefit to the Homeland.

          If you want to be left in your posts, I demand:

          Stop criminal attacks on the forehead of the village; Stop forehead attacks at heights with good fire; To step only along ravines, forests, and low-fire terrain; Break through immediately between the settlements and, not stopping at their final mastery, tomorrow capture Sloboda, Dawn and wedge themselves to Levshin.

          Execution to bring me to 24.00 27.1
          1. Zynaps
            +2
            31 August 2012 03: 23
            Agree, this is a little like the orders of the "butcher". Even more indicative is the statistics that falsifiers and liars shouting about the "butcher" are so fond of, only here it works against them. During the counteroffensive near Moscow, the irrecoverable losses of the Western Front, commanded by Zhukov, amounted to 13,5% of the total number of troops, and Kalininsky (Colonel General Konev) - 14,2%. In the Rzhevo-Vyazemskaya operation, Zhukov had 20,9%, and Konev had 35,6%. In the Vistula-Oder, the losses of the 1st Belorussian Front of Zhukov amounted to 1,7% of the original strength, and the 1st Ukrainian Front of Konev - 2,4%.
            Also
            Order of March 15, 1942:
            In the armies of the Western Front, a completely unacceptable attitude towards the preservation of personnel has recently been created. Commanders, commanders of formations and units, organizing a battle, sending people to carry out combat missions, not adequately approaching the preservation of soldiers and commanders, the Headquarters has recently replenished the Western Front 2-3 times more than other fronts, but this replenishment is negligent, and sometimes the criminal attitude of unit commanders toward saving people's lives and health is unacceptably quickly lost and units again remain in a small lack of space.
        2. 0
          31 August 2012 06: 31
          It would be interesting to add how and how many people died at an army rally organized by the Mehlis as a result of a German air raid.
      4. 0
        11 October 2016 18: 29
        As for Mr. Blucher and Dybenko - I do not know, but Tukhachevsky - I respected and respect that no one writes about him! If Tukhachevsky was the People’s Commissar of Defense in June 1941, the course of the war would be different! And the Red Army would not go back to Moscow, but the Wehrmacht would go back to Berlin and by the new 1942 USSR held the Victory Parade there, but ... history has no subjunctive mood, alas.
      5. -1
        6 May 2018 16: 08
        These were the marshals who built the best army in the world. Then they shot down a rank lower, down to a lump of regiments. After their execution, Voroshilov and Buden turned the prospectively growing Red Army into what became, they even couldn’t cope with the Finns, then waited for 1941-42 ... That’s why the main genius of competitors and powerful force were shot. so that there’s no one to point out and ask for the failures of Koba - a genius of all time.
        1. 0
          6 May 2018 18: 24
          Quote: Vladimir 5
          These were the marshals who built the best army in the world. Then they shot down a rank lower, up to a lump of regiments.

          Do not fantasize so primitively, because statistics on the total number of repressed, restored and returned to the army have long been discovered, and the fact that Tukhachevsky could not build the "best army in the world" is obvious to everyone who is familiar with the history of the USSR.
    3. Larus
      0
      30 August 2012 11: 41
      Yes, yes, I personally drove in parts and shot everyone no lower than the colonel whom I saw.
      Yes, even if there were no purges in the army of political workers-mediocrity, you would say that the army was led by incompetent mediocrity. In any situation, Stalin is to blame for you.
    4. Fox
      +1
      30 August 2012 11: 54
      the main thing is to write something! at least I READ something, I thought, compared it ... otherwise I constantly turned my brain and was glad.
    5. Insurgent
      +1
      30 August 2012 19: 44
      In principle, yes, Pavlov made a scapegoat
      1. borisst64
        +2
        3 September 2012 16: 48
        And from the protocol of interrogation of Pavlov:
        Thus, I plead guilty:

        1. The fact that due to my inaction I committed crimes that led to the defeat of the Western Front and heavy losses in people and equipment, as well as to a breakthrough of the front, which jeopardized the further unfolding of the war.

        Question: All of your treasonous actions that you have shown are not the result of complacency, but of deliberate betrayal. As a participant in an anti-Soviet conspiracy, you carried out wrecking work in the district, knowing about its consequences in the upcoming war with Germany. We invite you to tell the truth about your organized betrayal - the system that you created among your subordinates.

        Answer: I did not receive a task from anyone to open the Western Front, but my criminal inaction created a certain group of command, political and staff personnel, which worked in unison with me. So, for example, the chief of staff of Klimovskikh did not fulfill his direct duties of checking how my orders were executed. ....

        Question: You again talk about the treacherous actions of individuals. You are required to talk about the intent of these actions. You, as a conspirator, deliberately opened the front to the enemy, the enemy knew your entire deployment and plans of action, once again we suggest that you tell the investigators about this now.

        Answer: What happened on the Western Front makes me convinced of great betrayal in the Brest direction. I do not know this traitor, but the enemy calculated the blow exactly at the place where there were no concrete points and where the Bug River was most weakly covered. I repeat that I deliberately did not open the front to the enemy. The breakthrough of the Germans was due to my inaction and failure to comply with the instructions of the Central Committee on constant mobilization readiness.

        Question: The investigation is convinced that you deliberately betrayed the front, and will expose you to this.

        Interrogation is finished at 15 o’clock. 10 minutes.

        The transcript was written correctly from my words, I read it. D. Pavlov

        Interrogated:

        Deputy chief of the investigation department of the 3rd Directorate of NPO of the USSR battalion commissar

        Pavlovsky
    6. pavlo
      0
      31 August 2012 08: 06
      You are not competent, and you don’t want to talk anymore!
    7. Taratut
      +1
      31 August 2012 17: 26
      Why is it open.
      The late military historian O.F. Souvenir set a noble intention - to collect (sometimes bit by bit!) Data on the repression of all the "floors" of the command staff of the Red Army and the Navy, compiling the corresponding tables. So, at the brigade level (brigade commanders and equated to them) of the Red Army of 877 people were shot or 478 people were killed in prisons; in the divisional (divisions) unit of 352 people - 293; in the corps (comcor) - 115 people, in the highest (marshals and commanders) - 46; at all levels 729 people were shot, 63 died in custody, 10 people committed suicide. 130 people were released from prisons. Two people's commissars, four first deputy commissars, four deputy commissars, 17 chiefs of departments of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, 17 commanders of military districts, and commanders of all four military fleets were repressed. What these figures meant can be judged by the discussion at a meeting of the Military Council at NPOs in November 1937.
      “Commander of the Far Eastern Military District Dybenko: Former majors command part of the divisions, captains sit on tank brigades.
      Commander of the Transcaucasian Military District Kuibyshev: Our district is bleeding very much!
      Voroshilov: Not more than others!
      Kuybyshev: The captain commanded the division, who had not commanded neither the regiment nor the battalion before, and had been a school teacher for the past six years.
      Voroshilov: Why did you put it?
      Kuibyshev: Why did we appoint him? I assure you, Comrade People's Commissar, that we have not found a better one.
      Voice from a place: Where did the commanders go?
      Kuibyshev: All the rest have been transferred to the department of the People’s Commissariat of Foreign Affairs. ”
      1. Taratut
        +1
        31 August 2012 17: 49
        A.I. Mikoyan:
        "Stalin actually ensured the surprise of fascist aggression with all its dire consequences. To speak with him in the spring and especially at the beginning of 1941 that Germany could attack the USSR any day was absolutely hopeless. Stalin believed that the war with the Germans could begin somewhere in the end of 1942 or in the middle of it, that is, after Hitler put England on its knees. In his opinion, the Führer will never dare to fight on two fronts. “And by this time we will successfully complete the third five-year plan, and let Hitler then try to stick his nose,” Stalin confidently concluded.
        1. Brother Sarych
          +7
          31 August 2012 22: 39
          In fact, this was said by Mikoyan at a certain time, there is no way to trust him in this regard - this "prominent party figure" lived "from Ilyich to Ilyich," "hesitating in accordance with the party line" ...
        2. borisst64
          +3
          3 September 2012 16: 52
          Molotov's words:
          Khrushchev and Mikoyan at one time got to the point of trying to prove that Stalin was an agent of the tsarist secret police. But they failed to fabricate such documents.
    8. 0
      9 October 2016 10: 25
      But what about the commander of the Northern Fleet, Kuznetsov? unafraid of responsibility ... The whole misfortune of such commanders as D.G. Pavlov, this is a fear of taking responsibility upon themselves, because they weren’t even in the first hours, but already the days of the war, in a trance, according to G.K. Zhukov, and did not give the opportunity to open warehouses with weapons, uniforms, etc., which in some cases went to the Germans.
  2. DYMITRY
    +3
    30 August 2012 09: 51
    Khrushchev rehabilitated many people, including those whose names are forever damned. Pavlov is a Judas !! And now they are trying to make him almost a saint. Who is next in line? Vlasov?
    1. Larus
      +2
      30 August 2012 11: 42
      Considering how Khrushchev fulfilled, exceeded the instructions of Comrade Stalin, it is not surprising that during his leadership period, slops were poured on Stalin as best they could.
    2. Taratut
      +2
      30 August 2012 13: 17
      Vlasov was Stalin's favorite. And in general, near Kiev and Moscow decently showed himself. But in Meat Bor and Manstein would not do anything.
      1. DYMITRY
        +12
        30 August 2012 14: 32
        Quote: Taratut
        But in Meat Bor and Manstein would not do anything.

        Is this a reason to rehabilitate the traitor? If he died in a meat bore as befits a Russian soldier, honor and praise, and eternal memory. If he had gone out himself, and even brought a part of the army with him - the star of the hero, the streets of his name in every city and all other honors! But he, S.U.K.A, surrendered, and not only did he give up he began to fight with his own people on the side of the enemy !!! Burn this fell in hell until the end of time !!!!
        1. Taratut
          +1
          31 August 2012 14: 19
          Quote: DYMITRY
          Is this a reason to rehabilitate the traitor?

          And who rehabilitated Vlasov?
          I only clarify that Vlasov is not a Nazi, not a fan of Hitler.
          But Russia without Stalin and the Bolsheviks is, in principle, a pretty slogan. But how? Not relying on the Nazis.
          Here on the British and Americans - yes, I would support.
          1. DYMITRY
            +1
            3 September 2012 09: 21
            Quote: Taratut
            Here on the British and Americans - yes, I would support.

            Well, what is your difference from Vlasov ???
        2. +6
          14 January 2014 16: 52
          Taratut(unfortunately, I can’t personally - your comments are deleted quickly, I can imagine what is written there)

          Vlasov was not the first general to be taken prisoner. And, evaluating his actions near Myasny Bor, I personally can say: I will not evaluate his decisions as a military commander - perhaps he could not change anything in truth (I repeat - perhaps). But his actions as a soldier, after captivity, have no justification and cannot have: there is no shame in captivity (if the person did not surrender himself "at the mercy of the victor"), shame in betrayal. He had several ways of behavior, he chose the most shameful: cooperation with the enemy, betrayal of the Motherland, violation of the oath. Any of these acts is a serious crime, military and state. So do not look for excuses for his betrayal.
      2. Brother Sarych
        0
        30 August 2012 14: 46
        He was not a favorite, although he was noted, of course ...
        1. +3
          30 August 2012 17: 37
          He was awarded the Order for Moscow in the "list" order, when the commanders of all the formations that took part in the counteroffensive were awarded. Vlasov himself commanded the army for several days, you see, he was ill.
      3. Zynaps
        +2
        31 August 2012 03: 26
        Quote: Taratut
        Vlasov was Stalin's favorite. And in general, near Kiev and Moscow decently showed himself.


        the psychiatric hospital in Volgograd was connected to the Internet and the local strategist immediately found an article in Pedivikia ...
    3. Insurgent
      0
      30 August 2012 22: 53
      You would have been in hell if you hadn’t confused Pavlov with Vlasov. Pavlov made tank units more effective
      1. -1
        30 August 2012 23: 06
        Quote: Insurgent
        .Pavlov made tank units more efficient

        Can you be more specific? What does "more effective" mean
        And Vlasov was the first in the Red Army to establish the interaction of artillery and infantry in battles in the Volokolamsk direction.
        1. Insurgent
          +2
          31 August 2012 08: 19
          Hey normal. Based on the experience of fighting against German tanks in Spain, he insisted on the creation of tanks with diesel engines, protivosnaryadny armor and cannons, capable of breaking through the anti-ballistic armor of enemy tanks. 21.02.1938, in the post of head of the ABTU of the Red Army, commander Pavlov D.G. sent to the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR Marshal of the Soviet Union Voroshilov a report on the need for a radical review of tank weapons. In this document, he demanded that the T-26 infantry escort tanks be left to the infantry, and rearm the T-28 and T-35 tanks with a 76-mm cannon with a flat trajectory and an initial projectile speed of at least 560 m / s. In addition - to replace these two tanks, develop a new heavy breakthrough tank. The proposals of D. Pavlov were realized. For the T-28 and T-35, a 76-mm cannon was created with an initial projectile speed of 555 m / s, in addition, a heavy breakthrough tank of the KV was developed and put into series to replace these tanks. In the same document dated 21.02.1938, he demanded the development of a tank to replace the BT. From the document: “... Prototypes must be developed in two versions: wheel-tracked and purely tracked for the final decision on the choice of type (tracked or wheel-tracked). Upon receipt of the chassis (including the track) of a purely caterpillar tank operating at least 3000 km, it will be possible to abandon the wheeled-caterpillar type of a tank ”(RGVA. Fund 4. Inventory 19. Case 55. Sheets 1-2). Thus, the T-34 (the best medium tank of the Second World War) was created on the instructions and requirements of the commander of the ABTV Red Army Komkor Pavlov D. G.

          In November 1939, following the results of the use of tank corps (formed and staffed by the staffing of M.N. Tukhachevsky) in Poland in September 1939, Pavlov D.G. resolutely spoke out for their disbandment as not operational. In addition to him, the following people spoke out for disbanding: Deputy People's Commissar of Defense, Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army Red Army Commander 1st Rank B.M.
          1. +1
            31 August 2012 08: 51
            Quote: Insurgent
            Hey normal

            Hey insurgent, thanks for the detailed, comprehensive answer! smile
            And yet, to be a supporter of creating tanks with anti-shell armor and a more powerful gun and make tank units more effective is not the same thing. The effectiveness of tank units at the beginning of the war was below all criticism.
            And if I’m not mistaken, it was Pavlov who justified the need to replace artillery with tanks. Allegedly, the tank is much more effective than guns and howitzers when suppressing enemy resistance. Correct me if I'm wrong.
          2. 0
            11 October 2016 18: 42
            ... hmm, depending on how to use the tank corps - if there was no mind, then who is to blame?!?! After all, then during the war years they partially restored where necessary - I will not give you lectures on tactics and strategies here, once I excuse me! If you yourself will be interested - read in the relevant literature.
        2. +1
          1 October 2016 10: 04
          Wikipedia in your hands
  3. +11
    30 August 2012 09: 54
    Quote: Company 8
    In all directions, our retreats in 1941 are almost the same: in the Baltics, in Belarus, and in Ukraine.

    I do not agree, in Ukraine the KVO fought more organized, tank counterattacks under Dubno are an example. And the Soviet Navy, under the command of Kuznetsov in the early days of the war, did not lose a single warship, so the role of district commanders is great .................
    1. +4
      30 August 2012 11: 31
      but I disagree about the Navy ... the cruiser "Maxim Gorky" was blown up by a mine on June 23rd ... the leader "Moskva", lost in the ridiculous raid on Constanta on June 26 - isn't this the loss of large warships?
      1. +2
        30 August 2012 12: 12
        I had in mind 21 June, this is when immediately before the attack of Germany, the entire fleet Kuznetsov declared full combat readiness, as a result of 22 June all the attacks of the German Air Force were repulsed, the fleet joined the Second World War organized and this is the merit of its commander ...... .....
        1. Taratut
          +2
          30 August 2012 13: 22
          The fleet did not show itself at all.
          In the Baltic, the Germans were afraid that the Baltic Fleet would go to sea and cut off their communications - transportation from Sweden.
          No, we have shown ourselves ineptly. It is clear that the fleet was led by Tributz, who had no experience.
          On the Black Sea, we managed to lose half the fleet without any enemy at all. Stalin, looking at the results in horror, generally forbade the ships from leaving the ports.
          1. Brother Sarych
            +4
            30 August 2012 14: 49
            The Germans were afraid of the Baltic Fleet? The Baltic Fleet has never carried out attacks, because since the tsarist times it was purely defensive ...
            1. Taratut
              +2
              30 August 2012 15: 24
              What do you recommend? Read Raeder.
              There is no defensive or offensive fleet.
              1. Brother Sarych
                +2
                30 August 2012 18: 22
                The Soviet Baltic Fleet, as previously Russian, was originally intended for defensive operations, because they were going to fight in mine-artillery positions because of the superiority of the forces of the probable enemy ...
                It would be naive to think about any offensive actions, especially if you look at the map ...
                1. Taratut
                  0
                  30 August 2012 19: 17
                  Quote: Brother Sarich
                  were originally intended for defensive actions, because they were going to fight in mine-artillery positions because of the superiority of the forces of the likely enemy

                  Because the enemy is England. Germany, however, could not put up significant forces.
                  I repeat, the Germans were afraid. Therefore, mines and fenced.
                  1. Brother Sarych
                    0
                    30 August 2012 23: 21
                    How could it not? If there was such a task, then it was not possible to oppose the new German heavy ships with the support of aviation! And if there was a union of opponents? In general, tryndets would have come ...
                    By the way, the Germans did not shell Peter from their ships, unlike the British ...
                    1. Taratut
                      0
                      31 August 2012 09: 17
                      Let you still read Raeder.
                      And who will fight the British, Pushkin?
                      1. Brother Sarych
                        +1
                        31 August 2012 12: 20
                        The war between the Germans and the British causes more questions than answers ...
                      2. Taratut
                        +2
                        31 August 2012 14: 21
                        Well, at sea, who else fought with the Germans, if not the British.
                        The worst thing for the Germans is the transportation of iron ore from Sweden. Here, act on this path our submarines - it would be great. But we hid ourselves in a mink and fenced off.
                      3. +2
                        31 August 2012 19: 09
                        It’s great that the byrnas post turned out to be a normal thread for discussion. without any attacks ... it pleases, frankly ... that the Black Sea Fleet and the Baltic Fleet were in a puddle, due to the fact that the situation on the theater was such .. and the Germans did not have to enter large ships there ... and the Northern Fleet with minimal effort turned into the epicenter of actions at sea, well, everything went to this .. and here is an interesting point: young Golovko (room of the Northern Fleet) and Pavlov (room of the call) being discussed now ... both are abrupt up the career ladder, but - the result is very different ...
                      4. +1
                        3 September 2012 09: 49
                        These are the British who, frightened of Tirpitz, abandoned the fate of PQ-17 ???
                        Well, tell me at least one powerful naval battle involving the Royal Navy ...
                        The sinking of Bismarck does not count ... they themselves screwed up there more ....
                        A raid on Taranto, too ... by aviation ... etc.
                        The SF conducted active hostilities from the first day of the war .... The Baltic Sea, by virtue of the blockade ... still managed to seep into the Baltic Theater .... and inflict damage on communications ...
            2. +2
              3 September 2012 09: 43
              Oh, it's time to shake something .., but it started ...
              This is not to say that the Germans were afraid of the BF like fire, but for local operations it was a formidable force .... and that is why the Gulf of Finland was stuffed with mines with anti-submarine nets .....
              By the way, our submarines suffered the greatest losses on them ...
      2. +3
        14 January 2014 16: 55
        Quote: max73
        the leader "Moskva", lost in the ridiculous raid on Constanta on June 26 - is this not the loss of large warships?
        Leaders do not belong to large ships. Traditionally - to the class of destroyers.
    2. Insurgent
      0
      30 August 2012 22: 55
      The main forces of the Fritz went through Belarus, they went to Moscow, it was a direct path
    3. 0
      11 October 2016 18: 43
      That's right!
  4. +5
    30 August 2012 10: 00
    Thank you, Andrey, for a well-compiled article. Nowadays, one can rarely find an impartial attitude towards the personality of Pavlov.

    The article raises more questions than it answers. And among them the main one: "Was Pavlov a conscious traitor, or an honest warrior entangled in the monstrous bureaucracy of a huge state?"

    The question will remain open for a very long time, I believe, until the loss of relevance.

    "The question of who is primarily responsible for the June 1941 defeat remains open to this day."
    Responsibility is collective. But! The reasons that programmed the tragedy of 1941 were created by specific people, and Pavlov among them is only one of many. The whole system must be judged. And build conclusions for the entire state. And this had to wait a long two years. Before the battle of Stalingrad.
    1. Brother Sarych
      +2
      30 August 2012 14: 53
      In my opinion, it is easier to consider a traitor - because otherwise it looks like a complete fool, it is not clear how grown to such big stars! Although it must be assumed that he didn’t shine especially with brains - somehow, other options for evaluating the decisions he made or the decisions he proposed were heard by ear!
  5. +8
    30 August 2012 10: 10
    Mehlis .......
    As I hear this name - ..... you can be sure of the collapse and execution.
    Kerch operation Petrova .... Commissioner Mehlis - failure.
    ...
    In my opinion, with a strike of such power from the Germans, a council of genius commanders would not have been able to.
    And then ... a good theorist, a good practitioner - brigade commander.
    Zhukov, by the way, also on the Southern Front burned three tank corps against one German group. But nothing - remained intact.
    And Pavlov - came under the distribution.
    Fate
    1. Num lock U.A.
      +2
      30 August 2012 12: 26
      about the commissars is a separate topic, about the methods of "leadership" that they used ...
      1. Zynaps
        +3
        31 August 2012 03: 38
        and that is why the Germans used the cannibalistic order "On the Commissars", according to which political workers were not taken prisoner? and that they were concerned about even before the attack on the USSR.

        you, my grandfather offended and thousands of his comrades. defender of Leningrad, who liberated the Baltic states and took Koenigsberg, an infantry political officer, who received three serious wounds and five military orders during the war. Do you know what three serious injuries are? most after one or two became disabled. after the second wound, my grandfather could calmly commissate and enjoy life on the stove. only now he received the second wound (like the first) in the battles for Leningrad, in the winter of 1942. and he, you see, also managed to fight in Koenigsberg and there he already got an automatic burst in the chest, after which he barely survived and completely lost his health. so that then all sorts of nits with his comrades shit watered ...
        1. Num lock U.A.
          +1
          31 August 2012 11: 42
          do not take all the words at your own expense first
          Secondly
          Quote: Zynaps
          so that then all sorts of nits with his comrades shit watered ...

          a link to "watering" please, otherwise it somehow does not work out logically, I still haven't really said anything, and you have already written me in the category of nits
          shorter "minus" to such a comment
    2. Taratut
      -2
      30 August 2012 15: 02
      At that time, many were shot. Sometimes and for nothing.
      Later, Stalin realized that there would be no one to fight.
      And already mercy. I didn’t shoot anyone for the Crimea, for Kiev, for Kharkov. Rotmistrov for his mediocre prokhorovskoy battle - and then did not shoot.
      1. Zynaps
        +2
        31 August 2012 03: 40
        Quote: Taratut
        Rotmistrov for his mediocre prokhorovskoy battle - and then did not shoot.


        What, asshole, did the mediocrity Rotmistrov pull a hundred times with potatoes on the table? you only need to be treated. moreover, something radical, from the cutting of the inter-aural ganglion. euthanasia in ampoules 7.62, injection into the back of the head. and then, you still have to get into that ganglion ...
      2. Taratut
        0
        31 August 2012 14: 25
        By Prokhorovka here. Moreover, an article by the chief specialist in the Kursk Bulge.
        http://wordweb.ru/2009/10/20/prokhorovskoe-srazhenie-okonchanie.html
        1. +3
          31 August 2012 21: 36
          The main specialist in the Kursk Bulge ... - remained on the bulge.
          Dmitry, please ...
          how youth is felt ... - the amount of material does not mean ownership of the material.
          ...
          When I spoke about the Mehlis ... I spoke - it was about the Mehlis.
          Not about the commissars.
          During the service ... and now ... a lot of people who can be called - the Commissioner ... and can be called - COMISSAR.
          ..
          So loved by 8-th Rota and Taratuta - Surgeons and Executioners.
          ...
          All this is complicated. I myself, according to one of the VUS - Commissioner.
          And what - should I get a peep of myself?
          Christianity categorically does not welcome this.
        2. Brother Sarych
          +2
          31 August 2012 22: 34
          Chief Specialist? Did he appoint himself to them?
          1. Taratut
            +1
            1 September 2012 10: 48
            Zamulin is the author of a mass of books on Prokhorovka.
            Moreover, the reviews are excellent both from liberals and from the Stalinists.
            Really meticulous researcher.
            Lopukhovsky is our main SS specialist. And the SS tank divisions are the most important part of the German forces.

            Call more respected researchers on the Battle of Kursk?
            1. Num lock U.A.
              +1
              1 September 2012 12: 43
              ... just wording
              Quote: Taratut
              article of the chief specialist in the Kursk Bulge.
              grade smile
  6. +12
    30 August 2012 10: 21
    Pavlov's main fault is that he actually withdrew himself from commanding the troops, but he developed a good imitation of stormy activity when he personally went to the division to "cheer". As a result, the passage of information about the actions of the enemy troops and the actions of their own troops was irreversibly delayed, which is unacceptable in a mobile war. Personally, I consider Pavlov a traitor, who, however, did not work for the Germans, but implemented Trotsky's program. Which has already worked great once. In the first world war. And if Stalin had not "cleansed" the party elite and generals in 36-38. the result would have been even worse. It seems to me that the actions of Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev and others did not differ much from those of Yeltsin, Kravchuk, Shushkevich, Shevardnadze.
  7. Skavron
    +2
    30 August 2012 10: 29
    This is called "found the extreme".
    Quote: Astrey
    "The question of who is primarily responsible for the June 1941 defeat remains open to this day."

    How open? Who was planning the war? Meretskov, Zhukov and ... Stalin.
    1. +1
      30 August 2012 11: 01
      The entire General Staff was engaged in "planning". According to your logic, personal responsibility lies with EVERY military man?
      1. Skavron
        +1
        30 August 2012 11: 39
        Astray, what's the logic ??? I specifically indicated the culprits of the failure, what do you still not understand? Well, of course, my personal opinion ...
        1. +1
          30 August 2012 14: 42
          Yes, I understand you, I understand. I myself can’t be indifferent to this period of history. And personally responsible - almost the entire Soviet elite of those years, their foreign cunning partners, indifferent contemporaries.

          BUT! There are also bright speckles in matters of conviction. A lot of investigations of the initial period of the war brought out the regularities of personnel rotations and made it possible to align the fronts for two years.
    2. Fox
      +2
      30 August 2012 11: 58
      and what position did Stalin occupy? who was the head of the government? didn’t ask these questions? it’s probably lower than the dignity of the israeli prince ...
      1. Skavron
        0
        30 August 2012 12: 05
        Quote: Fox
        and what position did Stalin hold?

        Are you talking about an official or secret position?
      2. Taratut
        -1
        30 August 2012 15: 03
        The decisions were made by Stalin. Always in matters of principle. Regardless of the position.
        1. Skavron
          +1
          30 August 2012 18: 58
          Everything is correct. But others prepared these decisions for him, and he only said either "yes" or "no". Or he offered something of his own ...
        2. Zynaps
          0
          31 August 2012 03: 41
          Quote: Taratut
          The decisions were made by Stalin. Always in matters of principle. Regardless of the position.


          and the General Staff and the General Staff under the bamboo stairs smoked, degenerate?
          1. +1
            31 August 2012 21: 45
            Synapse, which is so dramatic - ... degenerate ????
            Well, comrade does not understand ...
            I would like to look at the guide ... who signs papers from the bulldozer ...,
            .. Such, like, according to Suvorov, there was only one - Zhukov ..
            Well, I remembered - Khrushchev ... more.
            ...
            Therefore, everything ... around them ... in their opinion, turned out to be dorkboys.
          2. Skavron
            0
            18 October 2012 17: 27
            Quote: Zynaps
            and the General Staff and the General Staff under the bamboo stairs smoked, degenerate?

            They cooked, offered ... Stalin accepted!
            You scare me with your logic ....
  8. predator
    +1
    30 August 2012 10: 35
    Pavlov was simply appointed a switchman, 625 thousand against the "Center" group, but not enough ...
    1. DYMITRY
      +12
      30 August 2012 11: 00
      Of course, it’s not enough, especially if, by order of the district commander, sights are removed from all artillery on June 20 and are sent, supposedly for adjustment, to the district training ground. I emphasize from all artillery !!! BK and fuel are unloaded from the tanks, and the same in aviation. And again, by order of the district commander. The order of the district commander delayed the release of troops into summer camps for three weeks, and then the Germans bombed them in winter apartments.
      And then the bloody tyrant Stalin appoints the pure immaculate Pavlov, the author of these orders, the switchman !!!! Who is the traitor then, if these orders are not betrayal ???????????
      1. Larus
        +2
        30 August 2012 11: 46
        Well, about Vlasov, the history is already being rewritten by "NEW" historians, making him a martyr whom Stalin betrayed. So there is nothing surprising in the fact that we learn "new" facts.
      2. +2
        30 August 2012 12: 44
        Well, that our planes were almost filled with water on June 22, the 41st, which I heard in the USSR. Only now, unloading the BC, bringing artillery into disability, and similar orders, if they existed, Pavlov would never have been acquitted.
        The reason for the defeat of the first days was not the readiness to repulse the blow of the most powerful group of German troops. Whoever was the commander of the Western District, at that time could not reflect the blitzkrieg worked out throughout Europe.
        1. DYMITRY
          +1
          30 August 2012 13: 12
          Quote: KORESH80
          Whoever was the commander of the Western District, at that time could not reflect the blitzkrieg worked out throughout Europe.

          But why then in all other districts, the troops retreated to predetermined positions in order, and the German advance amounted to a maximum of 15 km from the border.
          But the orders are preserved, they are available. If you wish, you can find.
          1. -2
            30 August 2012 13: 49
            But why then in all other districts, the troops retreated to predetermined positions in order, and the German advance amounted to a maximum of 15 km from the border.
            But the orders are preserved, they are available. If you wish, you can find.

            In other districts, the Germans made up for their progress later. Our losses there were huge. The army’s strike was simply the most important for the Germans; its strength is not comparable to other groups. Therefore, I do not think that Pavlov was better or worse than the commanders of other districts.
            Can you give a link to his sabotage orders? I can now show the protocol of his interrogation, which suggests otherwise.
            http://libelli.ru/works/moch2.htm
            1. DYMITRY
              0
              30 August 2012 14: 41
              KORESH80 and you are not a clone of the 8th company? He is also interested in what difference did our troops drop in other districts before the front collapsed in the western special or after? Honestly, it is amazing to me how on a MILITARY Review site a person may not understand such elementary things ??????
              I can’t give a link at the moment, because I saw copies of these orders in paper editions. There’s no time to search now, because the question is not quick, it’s far from the most popular topic on the Internet, and I’m at work.
              1. 0
                30 August 2012 17: 30
                KORESH80 and you are not a clone of the 8th company?

                No, I have my own opinion.
                what difference did our troops drop in other districts before the front collapsed in the western special or after?

                I did not say anything about this. I will repeat more clearly what I wanted to say - in the summer of 1941, the Germans would not have sustained the main blow. Any district with any commander. And it so happened that the main blow in the direction of Smolensk - Moscow, the timing - before the cold. That’s all it follows from here, neither Konev, nor Zhukov, nor any other military genius could disrupt the Germans’ plans in 41 with acceptable losses. In general, I myself am from these places and have had a lot to chat with people who saw how it was. Our army was not ready for such an adversary, but the territory and population allowed us to study.
                1. +1
                  31 August 2012 06: 45
                  I support. It is possible to give an example of the fact that the Germans did not cross the border near Murmansk for the entire war. This does not mean that the military operations were conducted there correctly, it only means that the Germans did not need its crossing. That's all.
                  1. Brother Sarych
                    +2
                    31 August 2012 22: 17
                    Still as needed - cut the supply channel!
                    The Arctic is the hardest area for warfare! The Germans did not want, but could not, our defenders of the Arctic did not give!
                    1. -1
                      1 September 2012 20: 11
                      Dali ... Dali ... But to the north of the ports the Germans didn’t go ... And they lost exactly 30 times less than ours .... Yes, and patriotism is not thoughtless praise of the mistakes of fellow tribesmen. It is an effort to learn from all events, including tragic ones, and to do so in order to prevent them from happening.
                      1. +1
                        3 September 2012 09: 55
                        North of Mumansk Svalbard and the North Pole .... maybe that's why they didn’t go .....
                  2. 0
                    1 September 2012 05: 54
                    For those who reacted negatively to my comment, I advise you to get acquainted with the "Valley of Death". This is just near the same places that I am talking about, not far from Murmansk. The commanding "talents" of some commanders there showed up very strongly. And this is not said with gloating, but with the hope that history will teach something
                    1. +1
                      3 September 2012 09: 57
                      I was born and served in those places for 20 years .... I know the history of the death valley as our father .....
                      What do you want to prove?
                      What a bad fight .... complete nonsense ....
                  3. -1
                    3 September 2012 09: 53
                    Sometimes it's better to keep silent .....
                    1. 0
                      3 September 2012 19: 08
                      They fought well. But fools learn from their mistakes. And there is a category of people who don’t even learn from their mistakes. This is stated in the original and discussed article. So it's really better to be silent sometimes.
                      I didn’t go over to you, dear, because I don’t have the honor of knowing you. And 20 years in those places cause respect. Although I have enough experience. Perhaps more than 2 times, no less.
                  4. +3
                    14 January 2014 17: 58
                    Quote: smel
                    near Murmansk, the Germans didn’t cross the border for the entire war. This does not mean that the military operations were conducted there correctly. It only says that the Germans did not need its crossing. That's all.
                    Yeah, well, our troops were never there, and every kilometer the Germans and Austrians from the mountain riflemen didn’t snatch from our ...
                    Recently I watched one dock. film, EMNIP "Polar region. War on rocks", so it shows well what it cost to defend Murmansk and the non-freezing ports of the Polar region. It's strange, like such shoulder straps, and such gaps ...
                2. DYMITRY
                  +1
                  31 August 2012 08: 44
                  Quote: KORESH80
                  I will repeat more clearly what I wanted to say - in the summer of 1941, the Germans would not have sustained the main blow. Any district with any commander.

                  You can hit into the simulation, as if all this had happened if Pavlov’s betrayal hadn’t happened, and what would have happened if the Western special military district had met the Germans as it should have met according to pre-war plans. By the way, such models were repeatedly built with the help of serious machines. And it turned out that with many options the Germans really broke through to the operational space, but !!!!!! By this time very strong defensive lines in all the main directions would have been set, and powerful fortified areas had been built. And in none of these options did the German reach Moscow. In the most pessimistic versions, he was stopped for 300-350 km. And there were options when the Germans were stopped at the old border, and then powerfully counterattacked, by the way in this version the war ended in the fall of 43 years !!! So anything could happen, but thanks to Pavlov’s betrayal, events moved in a monstrous way.
                3. +2
                  14 January 2014 17: 52
                  Quote: KORESH80
                  neither Konev, nor Zhukov, nor any other military genius could disrupt the Germans' plans in 41 with acceptable losses.
                  Konev and Zhukov at that time were busy with other things (one commanded the 19 Army, the other - the General Staff), but Eremenko and Tymoshenko with competent defense actions just broke the German blitzkrieg. Note that the Germans did not defeat, namely, they disrupted all the terms and plans of the Germans for the Eastern Company. And after that failure, more and wish something was impossible.

                  In general, I myself am from these places and have had a lot to chat with people who saw how it was.
                  I don't know where you are from - Belarus is big. And with whom exactly and about when and what you were talking about, I also don't know - in your profile you reported less about yourself than nothing. But I live in Novogrudok and at one time worked at the local local history museum, so I read archival documents and talked to "eyewitnesses". I must say right away that all their "memories" are written like a carbon copy: "defeat", "flight", "unpreparedness" (this is a collective farmer boy now talking with a clever air). They even have Ferdinands fighting in 1941! So what about the fact that
                  Our army was not ready for such an adversary
                  leave for your tales. I was ready, but why the disaster happened is a question of questions to which no one has clearly and unequivocally answered yet.
            2. +2
              14 January 2014 17: 19
              Quote: KORESH80
              Can you give a link to his sabotage orders?
              No. As well as it is impossible to give a link to his orders for the organization of competent defense. In the Novogrudok cauldron, no orders were received at all on the third day of the war. And there it was not the militia who ended up in the desert: the 3rd, 10th, partly 13th armies, warehouses, the possibility of coordinated actions to help those who still hold the Germans. And so people and equipment perished only because they were simply "written off" corny. And this is, in your opinion, the genius of military art ?!
        2. Brother Sarych
          0
          30 August 2012 14: 55
          There are many materials on the net about such a strange "preparation for war" ...
        3. +3
          14 January 2014 17: 14
          Quote: KORESH80
          Only now, unloading the BC, bringing artillery into disability, and similar orders, if they existed, Pavlov would never have been acquitted.
          And no one justified him. The Khrushchev’s rehabilitation of the 1957 year is not an argument, and there Tukhachevsky and the company were rehabilitated with Chokh.

          Whoever was the commander of the Western District, at that time could not reflect the blitzkrieg worked out throughout Europe.
          He might not have been able to reflect it, but he might not have allowed the front to collapse completely. After all, Pavlov was judged not for the fact that von Bock did not break "with little blood on foreign territory", but precisely for the loss of command and control, the collapse of the front and the complete loss of the most efficient formations of the Red Army (the 3rd and 10th armies were, perhaps, the strongest of all on the western border).
      3. 0
        30 August 2012 23: 35
        Quote: DYMITRY
        . I emphasize from all artillery !!! BK and fuel are unloaded from the tanks, and the same in aviation.

        What do you think Pavlov himself invented? Or carried out the order from above? If you came up with it yourself, then why didn’t they pull it? I think. that such orders and at that time not one denunciation was put on the table to competent comrades. However, no reaction followed. So everything was done correctly from the point of view of leadership. But why, this is another question.
        And the version that Pavlov was a traitor, it seems to me, was invented to cover those plans that he carried out, but which was not the author.
        And he was shot so that these plans did not become widely known.
        1. DYMITRY
          +2
          31 August 2012 08: 35
          Quote: Normal
          What do you think Pavlov himself invented? Or carried out the order from above? If you came up with it yourself, then why didn’t they pull it? I think. that such orders and at that time not a single denunciation was put on the table to competent comrades

          A reaction followed, and in those conditions I must say, it followed immediately! Remind me how many days Pavlov was arrested? And the fact that the order is dated June 20, you ignored consciously or simply did not see? Let me remind you of the army doing this: do not agree with the order? Follow and submit a report on command !!! And no other way !!! And the reports were filed. And on top of the order he could be lowered only from the General Staff, but even the most notorious residentists did not find traces of such orders. The only thing you are right about is that Pavlov did not come up with orders; he received them from the German General Staff, and only executed them on paper.
          1. 0
            31 August 2012 09: 01
            Quote: DYMITRY
            And on top of the order he could be lowered only from the General Staff, but even the most notorious residentists did not find traces of such orders. The only thing you are right about is that Pavlov did not come up with orders; he received them from the German General Staff, and only executed them on paper.

            So you need to understand the Isaevites and Pravdyukists found orders from the German General Staff?
            Or do you think Stalin is an idiot?
            1. DYMITRY
              0
              31 August 2012 12: 05
              Quote: Normal
              So you need to understand the Isaevites and Pravdyukists found orders from the German General Staff?
              Or do you think Stalin is an idiot?

              I don’t know who the Isaevites and Pravdyukists are, I’ve heard for the first time, but the logic of these orders is such that they could only be dictated from the German General Staff. And naturally, there couldn’t be any on paper in Germany, who would substitute his agent, even if it’s one-time. I did not understand the question about Stalin. Where did I speak about Stalin?
              1. 0
                31 August 2012 23: 43
                Quote: DYMITRY
                I don’t know who the Isaevites and Pravdukists are, I’m hearing for the first time,

                Let me not believe you. Have you heard about the "notorious rezunists"? So you cannot be ignorant of the Isaevites and Pravdyukists.
                Quote: DYMITRY
                And of course on paper in Germany they could not be

                Quote: DYMITRY
                I did not understand the question about Stalin.

                That is, in the German General Staff it is not idiots to issue such orders on paper, but Stalin is an idiot and must print orders for the impending provocation and the subsequent "liberation" of Europe and submit copies to the archive.
                I quite admit. that the version of the upcoming staging of a German air raid on border cities in the Western Front, and the subsequent response of the USSR Armed Forces to German aggression will cause a storm of indignation. But the version of Pavlov’s betrayal is not nearly more truthful.
                1. DYMITRY
                  0
                  3 September 2012 09: 19
                  Quote: Normal
                  But the version of Pavlov’s betrayal is not nearly more truthful.

                  Pavlov’s betrayal is documented !!! Those same orders for his signature.
                  Quote: Normal
                  the version of the upcoming staging of a German air raid on border cities in the Western Front, and the subsequent response of the USSR Armed Forces to German aggression will cause a storm of indignation

                  And what is there to resent. The crazy theory of another traitor. Refuted more than once and having no evidence whatsoever.
                  1. -1
                    4 September 2012 20: 27
                    Quote: DYMITRY
                    Pavlov’s betrayal is documented !!! Those same orders for his signature.

                    After that, what can you even talk about? In my opinion you are inadequate.
                    Quote: DYMITRY
                    The crazy theory of another traitor. Refuted more than once and having no evidence whatsoever.

                    As I understand it, refuted by the orders of Pavlov signed by him?
  9. +4
    30 August 2012 10: 57
    Could not, confused, did not organize, shooting!
    I think Comrade Stalin is no less responsible for the initial period of the war.
    1. -6
      30 August 2012 12: 48
      Stalin himself fell into a stupor for a long time and did not participate in the government of the country. He has no less guilt than Pavlov had.
      1. Larus
        0
        30 August 2012 14: 12
        Yes, and the trip of the "Politburo" to his dacha with knee-blowing, he also read.
        1. Brother Sarych
          +8
          30 August 2012 14: 56
          In fact, it was all invented in Khrushchev’s times - then the history was well erased ...
          1. +1
            30 August 2012 18: 06
            History and the Romanovs were well cleaned. But Stalin after the loss of Minsk for several days disappeared, and they did not hear anything about him in such a difficult time for the country.
            1. +2
              15 January 2014 21: 51
              Quote: KORESH80
              But Stalin after the loss of Minsk for several days disappeared, and they did not hear anything about him in such a difficult time for the country.
              Evona how! And nobody bothered? Did everything go on as usual? And when he appeared, no one asked where you, Iosif Vissarionovich, deigned to disappear? And Bezhanov does not report anything about this in his famous diary? Completeness, sir, to shine with stupidity, really, no one is forbidden, but as Robert Burns said, "you must have some kind of mind."
          2. Taratut
            +1
            1 September 2012 10: 55
            Well, yes, but Stalin did not clean? The history of civil, say?
            In Stalin's times, it was he who became the main hero of the war. But in reality, he was nobody and no way to call.
          3. +3
            15 January 2014 21: 48
            Quote: Brother Sarych
            In fact, it was all invented in Khrushchev’s times - then the history was well erased ...
            Cleaned up - this is still mildly skazochny. Then, consider it, a new one was created.
      2. +2
        15 January 2014 21: 46
        Quote: KORESH80
        Stalin himself fell into a stupor for a long time and did not participate in the government of the country.
        May these Khrushchev's tales be enough to replicate ...
  10. lars
    +2
    30 August 2012 11: 23
    In any case, thanks for the article. Such stories should be collected and published as alternative history textbooks, worked out at historical circles. As a teacher, in recent years I have been observing an increasing interest of young children in history, and the history of war is a very strong material for educating a new generation. Thanks again!
    1. 0
      31 August 2012 06: 54
      There are always many shades in history. It all depends on the state of the political situation at the moment. It seems to me that you can’t justify Pavlov. He committed a crime. He is punished. By drawing analogies to the current state of the army, you can notice that the divisions were replaced by brigades. Armament and equipment - old, and its replacement is planned for the nearest 20-year perspective. Officers who know and can do something are dispersed. Doesn't it remind anything? The mere lack of prospects for military operations saves us from repeating what has been passed. And so many Other military leaders could share the fate of the leadership of the ZAPOVO.
      And yet. As a man who knows a little artillery, I’ll say that the article did not trace the fate of the district artillery commander, General Klich. His fate was lost in September 41. He was apparently shot too. One of the frisky commentators writes everything about sights. So, artillery the district was at landfills. Just at two landfills. On one of them, the Germans captured about 500 152mm guns that they used against us almost until the end of the war. And on the second, the remains of artillery were destroyed (naturally together with people) because the leadership didn’t could u to figure out how to put the 203 howitzer on a direct fire. And all because there was one tractor per division. So the punishment was fair. And the current state of affairs in almost all areas of the military leadership is based on the fact that and no one ever answered
  11. Vanek
    0
    30 August 2012 12: 32
    No wonder. Rapid attack. Retreat - unorganized, in a hurry, etc. That’s the result - the capture of Belarus, etc.

    Everything else - yes, I wonder how it happened, why it happened?

    Here is Alexander (lars), one cannot disagree with him:

    Quote: lars
    Such stories should be collected and published as alternative history textbooks, worked out at historical circles.
  12. 8 company
    0
    30 August 2012 14: 58
    An interesting document for understanding the situation:
    1937 Komkor Konev instructs divintendant Drachev to organize work to deepen the foundation pits during the construction of barracks and command houses, since "in a combat situation they will be less affected by enemy fire ... besides, the windows of these objects will be loopholes ..."
    Local specialists are scamming:
    "This theory of Konev and Drachev ... is built on retreat, which contradicts the regulations of the Red Army, the instructions of the MSS People's Commissar of Defense, Comrade Voroshilov," to fight on foreign territory and beat the enemy on its territory, "and Comrade Stalin's instructions," Not a single inch of foreign land we want, but we won't give up our land either. "
    RGVA, F9, Op39s, D54, L42.
    Thus, to engage with the troops in working out defense issues, and even more so - actions in the encirclement - was deadly for commanders before the war. In the same 1937, the workers of Razvedupra were destroyed, who in the early 30s prepared a system for training commanders in environmental operations, and all the bases for storing weapons and supplies on the territory of Belarus and Ukraine in case of a deep breakthrough of the enemy were destroyed by the NKVD. This was well described in his memoirs by one of the founders of the Soviet special forces I. Starinov.
    1. Skavron
      0
      30 August 2012 19: 00
      Well yes. The defense was not planned ...
    2. Zynaps
      +2
      31 August 2012 03: 52
      Quote: Company 8
      1937 Komkor Konev instructs divintendant Drachev to organize work to deepen the foundation pits during the construction of barracks and command houses, since "in a combat situation they will be less affected by enemy fire ... besides, the windows of these objects will be loopholes ..."


      another one in 1937, the Red Army practically had no combat experience and it was built according to the militia type. Until 1941, they even managed to learn people. and only experts in the sofa are not mistaken.

      Quote: Company 8
      This was well described in his memoirs by one of the founders of the Soviet special forces I. Starinov.


      who himself served in the same department. Before the war, Starinov was already a skilled specialist in his field, but he had nothing to do with military planning. besides, tanks by any means were more useful than partisans, but it was bad with them:

      When assessing the technical readiness of the tank fleet (over 23 thousand units)
      it should be noted that over 70% of old tanks needed
      major and medium repairs. Serviceable tanks were no more than 27%. This situation was caused by an underestimation of the development of repair facilities.
      ...
      In February 1941, it was decided to form another 20
      mechanized corps. To equip them, more than 30 thousand tanks were required.
      To equip all hulls with tanks of new designs, it would not have been
      less than five years. The basis of the organization of the mechanized corps was laid the idea of ​​his
      great operational independence, which should have been ensured
      significant shock and firepower of the compound. In practice achieve
      this was not possible, since the field lacked field artillery, means
      Air defense and engineering and engineering units and parts.
      Thus, on the eve of the war, gross blunders were made as in
      determining the number of tanks in the hulls and the number of hulls.
      Their average staffing at the beginning of the war was within 50% (tab.
      3).
      There was an acute shortage of vehicles, tractors, motorcycles. Even
      primarily supplied corps of the western districts had
      staffing for cars and tractors no more than 35% and
      special machines - 15-20%.

      that's where the dog rummaged, not the crap you brought.
  13. +2
    30 August 2012 15: 45
    In December 1940, at the KSHVI, Zhukov, playing for the “blue” (read for the Germans) gouged Pavlov, playing for the “red,” in a situation much like June 41. When Stalin asked Pavlov about the reasons for the loss, he said that it happens at war games. I finished badly.
    1. 0
      31 August 2012 21: 52
      Then it is necessary to completely give the situation of these games.
      And not excerpts ... of them.
      not responsible ...
      1. +1
        1 September 2012 18: 35
        “blue” won against “red”, what other situation is needed?
        1. 0
          1 September 2012 20: 47
          The first game.
          Pavlov, with the composition of his Western District, attacked the territory of East Prussia. Germany's most in-depth outpost.
          Confronted him - Zhukov with a group of high commanders.
          Result - execution is possible. But the loss of troops is catastrophic.
          Blue is red.
          The second game ... Pavlov and a group of commanders ... from the Balaton region .. deliver a strike on the Southern Front.
          Law Firm - whole education, Pavlov co-comrades .. two separate shock fists.
          The result is a draw.
          ...
          Pavlov - published. theorized.
          Zhukov - defeated the Japanese at Khalkhin Gol. Publications, at that time - not a single one. But the mass of executions .. in the asset.
          Conclusion:
          Zhukov is a strong-willed commander. This is appreciated - AWESOME.
          Pavlov - well, theorist ... Let’s give a command ... if he can’t cope - we’ll slap.
          ...
          The result is obvious.
          and all things.
          1. 0
            2 September 2012 10: 52
            I am familiar with a different interpretation of these games. The first was held from 2 to 6 January (in the commentary he spoke about December 40th because in December the meeting began after which the games were held) "Western", they are "blue" having located their main forces in East Prussia, struck in the direction Riga - Dvinsk, along the coast. Zhukov had about 150 divisions. Initially, he introduced 60, and after a counterstrike by the "Reds", he retreated, strengthened the grouping and went on the offensive. The second game, from January 8 to 11, was on a different topic. The "Reds" advanced, the "Blues" defended themselves and again Zhukov won, he did not allow to encircle and destroy his troops and stopped the advance of the "Reds". According to eyewitnesses, Stalin was very dissatisfied with the defeat of the "red".
            I do not pretend to be the ultimate truth, I was not there, as, incidentally, and you. But, you must agree, the very configuration of the Bialystok ledge assumed blows under the bases. The Germans demonstrated this more than once until June 41, and the Western Front lined up divisions in "one line". It makes no sense to talk about the co-mood in the story, but the topic is painfully bleeding.
            1. +1
              2 September 2012 18: 00
              There is no ... add .. no chat.
              I really know these matters only from publications.
              Believe - accordingly - you need percent on 50.
              ...
              Just, being somewhat involved in the promotion of garbage, I do not believe in such - Sold !!! Passed !!!! Betrayed !!!
              He, Pavlov Dmitry Georgievich - was not alone there. Around him a bunch ..KOMISSAROV .. curled. Which would not have allowed ... to recede ... from the line of the party and the Government.
              OPA-NA .... Pavlov ... HANDED ... West District !!!!
              Yes, your mother? And commissars WHERE? They bore, at that time, responsibility on an equal footing!
              No.
              It's simple.
              Extremely simple.
              Guilty - Pavlov .... co-comrades who are not comrades at all.
              ...
              Many, of course, on the topic you can tryndet.
              However, as I see it - I - such a decision was necessary.
              About that and wrote.
              Pavlova is sorry.
              And, on the other hand, if he washed the Germans ... with a bloody yushka ... he would be a Hero.
              And not Zhukov G.K.
              ..
              And all business.
              1. +1
                2 September 2012 20: 08
                I agree, Pavlov with his officers fell under the distribution. The guilty party was needed and the Mehlis commission did its best, although it would not be bad for the Mehlis to ask for warehouses on the border itself, which is why the troops remained surrounded and without supplies, and ..... it can take a long time. The fact that Pavlov is not a traitor is not a question.
                1. 0
                  2 September 2012 20: 43
                  In that situation, I’m much closer in spirit ... the aviation commander .. Kopets Ivan Ivanovich ...
                  I realized that the matter is seams .... and did not wait ...
                  gone ... purely ... as an officer.
                  ...
                  Well done...
                  1. +1
                    25 August 2015 16: 17
                    And for some reason, it seems to me - without life and leadership experience (33 years), he was unable to organize control of the district’s aviation, maybe he was a victim of senior comrade’s games when he realized he was stupidly shooting himself. Why stupidly - he is a combat pilot, a hero of the Soviet Union, could land in a fighter and in battle, or as Gastello fall in the area of ​​an enemy tank column. But no, better as a pregnant college student.
        2. +2
          15 January 2014 22: 09
          Quote: colonel
          “blue” won against “red”, what other situation is needed?
          In the initial introductory, in the available forces, in the restrictions on attracting additional funds and other, other, other ... I am not a general or even a colonel, but in tactical exercises at the VK University we were always given a certain set of initial settings, for which you you have no right. So get out, as you know. By what forces and under what conditions of operating on those CSWI Pavlov and Zhukov, it is not known for certain: the great commander, as often happened, in his memoirs flexibly circumvented this issue, limiting himself only to their results, which he exalted to heaven.
          1. -1
            15 January 2014 22: 30
            I did not take information about this game from the memoirs of the great commander, and posted some data on the "initial settings" in his commentary four steps higher. And to be honest, it touches your method of argument - to insert your arguments a year and a half after it ends. hi
    2. psdf
      0
      1 September 2012 02: 45
      If I remember correctly, then based on the results of those games, a set of mandatory activities was compiled. And Pavlov, including, was blamed for their failure.
    3. +2
      15 January 2014 22: 03
      Quote: colonel
      In December 1940, at KSHVI, Zhukov, playing for the "blue" (read for the Germans) gouged Pavlov, playing for the "red",
      These notorious KSHVIs were talked about very often. but everything is somehow very identical and stingy. As if from the pages of the memoirs of one famous marshal written off (and he didn’t skimp on praise in one direction, just like Caesar in "Notes on the Gali War"). But here's what's interesting: the results of the games are catastrophic, the necessary questions are asked, some answers to them are received, and the results are zero point, zero tenths. And the loser in all respects, Pavlov, is appointed commander of the ZAPOVO, playing for which, he so beautifully profiled him. Who's the idiot? Stalin, who appointed Pavlov, an obvious mediocrity, or a reader who easily swallows this simple concoction?
  14. Lech e-mine
    +4
    30 August 2012 18: 01
    Pavlov did not have the spirit to act as a comforter to Kuznetsov. The sailors were on top and met Fritsev in all weapons. Conclusion - you can’t blindly follow orders even under pain of death or punishment.
    1. Brother Sarych
      -1
      30 August 2012 18: 26
      The story with the fleet is generally quite dark - the Germans claimed that they did not make any raids on the fleet in the morning of June 22!
      1. Lech e-mine
        -1
        30 August 2012 18: 52
        AHA IF TO BELIEVE THIS AND THOSE OF OUR NAVY WAS NOT ABOUT TO REMEMBER - DO NOT LAUGH. (Read the book of KUZNETSOV — I remember him more than the Fritz.)
        1. Taratut
          -2
          30 August 2012 19: 20
          And in vain. Read the memories of Generals Batov and Laskin. They have hundreds of German tanks ironing their positions there. Laskin even brought a figure - 375.
          Only Manstein didn’t have tanks. No one. There was a self-propelled gun division. 24 pieces.
          Better believe the Fritz. They are so brazenly do not lie.
          1. Lech e-mine
            0
            30 August 2012 19: 26
            WHAT YOU CARRY .24 SELF-PROPELLED MANNERS AND NO TANKS - I have no words. WHOSE SAME 375 GERMAN TANKS WEIGHTED BY BATOV AND LASKIN -HA HA.
            1. Brother Sarych
              0
              30 August 2012 23: 16
              And you need to ask those who edited those memories ...
            2. Taratut
              0
              31 August 2012 09: 23
              You have no words because you are not in the know.
              no one ironed. But the beaten generals need to justify their defeat.
              1. Lech e-mine
                0
                31 August 2012 16: 56
                Well, you're constantly lying. I'm already tired of catching you in a lie.
        2. Brother Sarych
          -1
          30 August 2012 23: 15
          Read carefully and do not get into the bottle! I wrote that the Germans say that they did not raid in the morning of June 22, but did not write anywhere that these raids were not! The question is - who made those raids? sinned on the British, actually ...
          1. Lech e-mine
            0
            31 August 2012 03: 51
            WITH GERMAN CROSSES ON WINGS?
            1. Taratut
              0
              31 August 2012 09: 22
              Many such examples. According to the memoirs of the war veterans, a raid of dozens of aircraft was shot down a little.
              According to German documents, it turns out (and what's the point of lying in the documents?) - 4 planes flew to bomb, there were no losses.
              1. Lech e-mine
                0
                31 August 2012 16: 56
                You're lying again.
            2. Brother Sarych
              0
              31 August 2012 12: 09
              Who told you that? In general, there was no bombing in the first raids - mines were dropped, in particular on Sevastopol ...
              And about the fact that the first raid on Sevastopol was carried out by the British and before the Germans - there was such a version, they wanted, according to this version, to make the war inevitable, if suddenly something goes wrong with the Germans, in general, with the first raids of uniform parsley, everything is not so simple, as in the canonical version "June 22. At exactly 4 o'clock Kiev was bombed, we were told that the war had begun" ...
    2. psdf
      0
      9 September 2012 20: 12
      Or maybe the other way around - it was Kuznetsov who complied with the order?
  15. 8 company
    0
    31 August 2012 09: 30
    It is also necessary to figure out who gave the order not to touch the German reconnaissance aircraft for six months before the war, plowing the airspace of the USSR, and even reaching Moscow. According to the general impression, before the war, a real enemy, and not a fictitious "enemy of the people", was closely involved in the top leadership of the USSR. He managed to disintegrate the Red Army with massive distrust of commanders, denunciations, decapitate the army by repression, drive huge masses of non-ready troops to the border, concentrate huge materiel stocks near the border, quickly captured by the Germans, concentrate aviation on airfields near the border, create unbalanced mechanical units, disarm old fortifications, give the Germans all the possibilities for conducting aerial reconnaissance, etc.
    1. +1
      31 August 2012 22: 01
      So what?
      You need to be a hedgehog - not to answer - Stalin.
      The whole reason is Stalin.
      So we figured out - then WHAT?
      ...
      Next, you need to figure out who participated in the Tehran Conference of the 1943 of the year, the Yalta 1945 of the year, the Potsdam ....
      ...
      Who brought the Soviet Union to the position of a leading world power in space and nuclear energy?
      To the position of a world power with the highest level of GDP growth?
      ...
      and who, then ... stole it all? After 1953 year.
  16. Karish
    0
    31 August 2012 22: 10
    Quote: Igarr
    and who, then ... stole it all? After 1953 year.

    Bulganin, Khrushchov, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, Gorbachov, Yeltsin, Putin, Medvedev, Putin. crying
    1. 0
      2 September 2012 18: 24
      KARISH DE 31 AUGUST 2012 22: 10
      - 0 +
      Quote: Igarr
      and who, then ... stole it all? After 1953 year.

      Bulganin, Khrushchov, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko, Gorbachov, Yeltsin, Putin, Medvedev, Putin.






      Soul not grass, huh?
      ... Well, you are so ... ruthless.
      Vitalik from Tashkent, worked on the Algorithm, is he not surrounded?
      Very similar to him.
      Jews ... got their topic ....
      I am a mass of Russian, sov, Uzbeks ... I can bring anyone .... a hundred times worse than a Jew.
      Life I would not trust them ...
      Will live.
      Tomorrow is Monday.
      Hey.
  17. Volkh
    +1
    4 September 2012 12: 38
    Quote: alex20081308
    There really are still people who believe in the genius of Blucher, Tukhachevsky and Dybenko.

    Average yes, no others
    1. drmoon
      0
      22 December 2012 02: 41
      But what about the "heroic campaign to Poland"?
      1. 0
        11 October 2016 19: 10
        ... do not be ironic - in the place of Comrade Stalin, you would have done something similar!
  18. drmoon
    +1
    22 December 2012 02: 39
    I do not understand the discussion somewhat. The commander is not starting at the rear, but politically. His task is to make decisions. Right-wrong - this is the tenth thing, they will help there, they will fix it. But complete inaction, sorry, this is already a tribunal
    Transferring to today. The commander sets a task for me. I have several fighters. I am not sent orders with the official seal, I don’t have any conversations on treble. But for some reason I carry out the task.
  19. +1
    3 October 2016 10: 04
    Quote: Igarr
    Mehlis ....... As I hear this name - ..... you can be sure of the collapse and execution. Petrov’s Kerch operation .... Commissioner Mehlis - failure


    Read more about the Mehlis, an interesting person, personality .. And everything that is said in the memoirs of military leaders is not all clear. There is a strong belief that a lot is written off to him.
  20. 0
    3 October 2016 10: 07
    Quote: Brother Sarich
    in the canonical version "on June 22. At exactly 4 o'clock Kiev was bombed, they announced to us that the war had begun" ...

    I already agreed that the German bombers had a radius of action that did not allow them to bomb these cities.
  21. +1
    4 October 2016 17: 28
    Was Pavlov a traitor technically - the Abwehr could definitely answer this question. But he will never answer for anything. But the fact that a consciously operating German agency was functioning at the headquarters of the district is post factum. In this case, Pavlov is guilty, because all this under his "wing" turned, willingly or unwillingly, is no longer the point.
    1. 0
      11 October 2016 19: 06
      Laugh or not, argue with me or not, but the enemies of the people at that time were full and I partially justify the actions of the NKVD of the USSR, it’s another matter that Comrade Stalin did not have to blindly trust the leadership of the NKVD and not sign death sentences with lists! It was necessary to send marshals and generals to the camps, and not to shoot !!! And the war began - to the front, atone with your blood to atone for the motherland ... And the course of the war would be completely different! Do you agree?
  22. 0
    5 October 2016 21: 26
    Too contradictory data about Pavlov. There is a bunch of evidence that when the General Staff and the People's Commissariat of Defense sent a directive to bring the troops into combat readiness on the night of June 22, 1941, Pavlov was in the theater and did not "rush" to carry it out. Only the lazy didn’t write about the unmasked planes on the airfields, the guns dragged to the very border from all over the ZOVO, which turned out to be without sights and shells, but these facts do not disappear, but remain. Stalin and Zhukov and Timoshenko should not be responsible for this mess ...
  23. 0
    6 October 2016 14: 53
    the leadership of ZOVO became extreme, and that's all ... imagine a different situation .. Hitler slept and decided to attack Britain and as soon as he began to act in Britain .. Comrade Stalin hollowed at it with all the unshakable power of the Soviet Army .... would in his place, Zhukov or another commander was also shot ... but history does not tolerate the subjunctive mood .... that is, that is, he shot Comrade Stalin, it was for what ..... apparently the installations were too significant, Comrade Pavlov knew .. (IMHO)
  24. 0
    9 October 2016 06: 00
    Quote from the article:
    “Some researchers charge Pavlov with illiteracy and a lack of military education.”


    Official historians and authorities try hard to present such a person to the population of the former USSR Pavlov - illiterate and uneducated. But such a view is groundless.
    Hero of the Soviet Union, Army General Pavlov, a professional military man, from the age of eighteen, and according to some reports even from the age of seventeen in service. He joined the army as a volunteer, participated in the First World War. In the tsarist army, for a year and a half, he rose to the rank of senior non-commissioned officer.
    In the civil war, at high enough command posts. He participated in the fight against gangs of the White Cossacks, with the Basmachi, in the military conflict on the CER, fought in Spain, was on the Halkin Gol, and participated in the Soviet-Finnish war. Almost all the “hot spots” of that time have passed. I had no failures in the service.
    As a young man 25 years old in 1922 he graduated from the 24th Omsk Infantry School named after the Comintern with DIFFERENT. Moreover, among the excellent students, he was awarded, awarded a valuable gift from the command - field binoculars. At that time, it was a serious reward for cadets for academic excellence.
    In 1928 he completed his studies at the Military Academy. Frunze, in 1931 took courses at the Military Technical Academy.
    He participated as commander of the “Reds” in the big operational staff game in December 1940. And I didn’t receive any remarks on incompetence, as a result of the game I received a promotion, became the army general. He was awarded three orders of Lenin, two of the Red Banner.
    Pavlov was a well-educated general with great combat experience.
    1. 0
      15 December 2017 21: 09
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      Pavlov was a well-educated general with extensive combat experience.

      I think this is clearly overkill, if only because he studied not so much (in courses, for example, only a year), the combat experience is also very small - less than a year in Spain, where there were no large tank battles. The same can be said about Halkin-Gol and Finnish. But the fact that he did not have the experience of commanding districts, and he came from ABTU to ZAPOVO, without even passing the “district” as a deputy, and subsequently affected the tragedy that happened after June 22.
      So Pavlov can be considered a general with great combat experience only those who have a poor idea of ​​what it is.
      1. 0
        17 December 2017 07: 11
        Quote: ccsr
        I think this is clearly overkill, if only because he studied not so much (for courses, for example, just a year),

        Well yours "not so much" - it's overkill.
        Pavlov, [/ b] about a year was a cadet of the Kostroma infantry courses, then almost immediately [b] another two years studying at the 24th Omsk infantry school named after the Comintern. Then three more years training at the Military Academy. Frunze
        And almost a year of study at the Academic Courses for Technical Improvement of the Navy Staff at the Military Transport Academy (AKTUS BTA).
        Pavlov was a very capable student, so he graduated from a 2-grade school With Honours. Then under the king perfectly passed the exams to a forestry school and was accepted for retirement, but the scholarship was not enough for training, housing, food and uniforms, as a result, he was deducted for the debt to pay for training and the lack of uniforms. Later, he successfully passed the exams for the 2nd category listener to the gymnasium, but again, due to financial difficulties, he could not study.
        As already written, Pavlov With Honours graduated from the 24th Omsk infantry school named after the Comintern.
        So how much and how would Pavlov still have to study?
        However, an excellent education does not guarantee that this highly educated person will serve well for the good of the Fatherland, the Motherland.
        Here is an example from the present.
        "Famous" Colonel Zakharchenko finished school with a gold medal, then one university, the North Caucasus Academy of Public Administration, with honors, after another university, Rostov State University majoring in Economics, then receives a third diploma of higher education, but already in law and in addition to studying in graduate school and PhD.
        And what does the country have?
        A highly educated thief with a Gold Medal, with three diplomas of higher education, with a Ph.D., which is her highly qualified, robbing her on a grand scale. They found more than a ton of currency, but how much they had already stolen was drunk, eaten, lived, unwound and how many were not found.
        Also, Hero of the Soviet Union, holder of three orders of Lenin, two orders of the Red Banner, commander of the ZapOVO (ZF) Army General Pavlov betrayed his country, his homeland in a highly educated manner. Although his education was excellent, and the combat experience was great.
  25. +1
    11 October 2016 19: 00
    Alex,
    By the way, in the fall and winter of 1941, even pilots from the British Air Force "helped" us to protect our Arctic Circle. The facts, alas, are! ...
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. +15
    4 November 2017 23: 07
    Views on the BTV put forward the right
    There were errors and loss of control
    Appointed as a switchman
    1. 0
      15 December 2017 21: 12
      Quote: Chief Physician
      Appointed as a switchman

      No, he got what he deserved - his guilt cannot be justified by the guilt of other officials who made the wrong decisions, because everyone should be responsible for their actions, as well as for inaction.
  28. -1
    17 December 2017 11: 48
    Quote: Ivan Tartugay
    And almost a year of studying at the Academic Courses of Technical Improvement of the Navy Staff at the Military Transport Academy (AKTUS BTA).

    These courses are far from the General Staff Academy, so from the point of view of obtaining military special education, they really benefited, but from the point of view of obtaining the operational and strategic art of command and control, it is unlikely.
    Although his education was excellent, and the combat experience was great.

    If you can still somehow agree with the education that Pavlov was not from the plow, but about the combat experience, this is clearly an exaggeration. In addition to Spain, where he was an adviser, in other military conflicts he did not hold high-level posts in the army. Where did this experience come from, especially given the scale of those conflicts?
    The example of Zakharchenko is completely off topic - this is not a product of the USSR, but of modern Russia.
  29. 0
    17 December 2017 12: 02
    Quote: andrew42
    Whether Pavlov was a traitor technically, the Abwehr could definitely answer this question.

    He was not a traitor in this regard, and this is obvious without an Abwehr. It’s just that the military leader was in the wrong position, and therefore could not competently manage a huge mass of troops in a critical situation, because had no experience managing the county for more than one year. Why he agreed to go to the district from the central office is not entirely clear, especially taking into account his mechanized past, but I think that he overestimated his capabilities, for which he paid in full.
  30. 0
    8 February 2019 21: 20
    History, history. Who is writing it? People. How do they write it? Naked facts? No. It is described: from the point of view of contemporaries, as directed from above, for moral and ethical reasons ... in general, conformism. Blame EVERYTHING (repression, lack of strategic foresight, etc.) on Stalin, the most simple and convenient position. This is the creed of all conformists; incompetent, illiterate ambitious bipeds. Who is to blame for the collapse of the USSR today ??? Perhaps Gorbachev or Yeltsin in August 91 drove the "comrades" to defend the White House at gunpoint?

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