Military Review

Swords on sculptured headstones

327

Before us is a frame from the Spanish-American film "Black Arrow" (1985). But in fact, we see in front of us ... a revived effigy!


"And he said to them: Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: put each of your sword on your thigh, go through the camp from gate to gate and back, and kill each one his brother, each one his friend, each one his neighbor."
(Exodus 32:27)

History weapons. So, today we continue our journey into the world of medieval swords. And we will start it with a short introduction. Until now, unfortunately, we have people, well, how would we call them so “more tolerant” ... “sick” seems to be the most accurate definition, stubbornly claiming that all that mass of artifacts that is known to historical science and is the basis for dating history as such is ... a forgery. That is, a fake sword from the grave in Sutton Hoo, and all those swords that passed through the hands of Petersen and Oakeshott, that the manuscripts (tens of thousands of folios!) Are also fake, like the drawings in them depicting these same swords, and finally , obviously, effigii are also fakes - gravestone sculptures of the deceased knights. But here's what's interesting: most of the manuscripts are signed and dated by their authors. And they could not have known that some knight in arms on a miniature in his book will give an oak tree somewhere in Yorkshire at that very time, and a statue will be sculpted from it in exactly the same armor and with the same sword, and even and they will put a year on it. And that exactly the same would then be found at the bottom of the Thames. It is physically impossible to write so many books, cut down thousands of statues, and even bury so many swords in the ground and throw them into rivers, or, on the contrary, keep them carefully on the walls of knightly castles and cathedrals. And most importantly - why? After all, separately, all these manuscripts, artifacts and effigies do not prove anything and do not affect anything.

Our president over there found, for example, one (1) textbook in which “there was no Battle of Stalingrad,” but what does this prove when there are many textbooks in which she writes in great detail? Someone lost their appetite because of this, someone lost their salary, or, on the contrary, was it raised? Of course not. Just knowing history has very little effect on our real life, does not even teach us anything, judging by experience. And if so, then who could have thought of cutting down thousands of statues, writing thousands of manuscripts, forging swords and armor. And most importantly - why? To prove to descendants, and quite close to us in time, that the Middle Ages was? Yes, but why are we going to prove it to someone? Well, it was and it was, and I ... will go and "booze". Did not have? Better yet: I will also "booze" or I will go to work in the country, because "it was - it was not" does not affect our life in any way.

But if you don't rave in this way, it turns out that both the miniatures from the manuscripts and the artifacts of swords complement each other perfectly. But this was in the past material, and today our story is about medieval swords that can be seen on the hips of the effigy! Since they have been discussed at VO more than once, there is no point in repeating. I will only say that since the burial shroud was the only clothing of both a noble seigneur and the very last poor knight, in order to distinguish one from the other, they invented effigii - gravestone sculptures of the deceased, sometimes much higher than human growth.


This is how the swords changed ... Then we will see how they changed on the effigy statues!

They are shown on them with the smallest details, and - most importantly, what we see in the effigies exactly corresponds to what is depicted in medieval miniatures. That is, the history of medieval costume and knightly weapons can be fully studied using them, supplementing it with cross-reference to illustrations in manuscripts. The latter, however, are older than gravestone sculptures, the fashion for which among the knights also did not appear immediately.

Now let's look at the effigies themselves. Indeed, they deserve it, and it is worth looking at them, and very carefully. After all, then they will be able to tell us a lot ...

Swords on sculptured headstones
Let's start with this effigy - William Marshal, First Earl of Pembroke, who died in 1219, which is in the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. There are also earlier ones, but swords are not visible in their photos. And here the sword is seen very well. And it can be seen that the pommel of the handle has the shape of a ball, but the crosshair is too massive. Interesting is the blade tapering to the point ... This is not "Type XV", but not "Type X", but rather "Type XIV"


A very revealing sword in the effigy of William Marshal 1231nd Earl of Pembroke, who died in XNUMX. Temple Church in London. Its crosshair is also small. That is, this is a typical horseman's sword!


Effigia of Alexander Giffard, 1262, Boyton. Here he has, one might say, a classic sword "type XII" by E. Oakeshott, straight from his typology and scheme, given in the first material of this cycle. The sword sling of that time is very well shown ...


But here, with the crosshair, the sculptor clearly overdid it. If it were so real, this sword would be impossible to use due to the wrong balance and heavy weight. Effigia of the Knight D'Evers, 1270 Bristol


The value of this effigy of a nameless knight of 1300 from High Erkall is that it reproduces the clothes of a knight in the smallest details, a quilted under-armor caftan is visible, but the main thing is that he has no armor under the surcoat, but only the same chain mail


But this is no longer an effigia, but a breaststroke - a "memorial plaque", which is an engraved image on a copper sheet fixed on a tombstone. In this case, it depicts William de Setwan, buried in Chertham, Kent, in 1322. As you can see, he is still fully chain mail armor with chain mail mittens braided to the sleeves. But he follows fashion! On his shoulders he has elettes, repeating (although this is not visible) the coat of arms on the shield. And all the clothes, that is, surcoas, are embroidered with heraldic images of fans for the grain of the grain. His sword is very long and just a gorgeous scabbard.


John de Loudham, 1318 Loudham. There is nothing left of the sword hilt, but the sling is very clearly visible!


Effigia of Pembmarsh: William Fitzralf, died 1323. Everything is so well shown here that there is even nothing to comment on: you just need to look. Everything is very, very typical for its time. And all the same was presented many times in miniatures ...


John Leverick of Ashe, 1350. Compared to others, it seems to be a rather discreet effigy, and even with broken elbows. But its value to weapon historians is enormous. Take a closer look: in the cuts of the jupon (a short caftan that replaced the long-legged surcoat), you can see stripes, not chain mail. That is, in 1350, there were already such shells from the stripes!


The same year 1350, but not England, but Germany. Effigia Albrecht II, Barbie an der Elbe, in Saxony-Anhalt. He has a downright huge sword, clearly "Type XVII". He also has a helmet with a crown and “horns”, as well as three chains (one with a “button” for attaching a helmet, on which two cross-shaped slots are made for it) and a gilded knight's belt on his hips. The bascinet helmet (comforter) has a special detachable plate - bretash, to protect the nose


And here the sword in the scabbard is shown exceptionally well. Effigia Ulrich von Trevax, 1350, Switzerland, Hauterive


Brass by John de Cobham, 1354, Cobham. An excellent example of the armor of the transitional era, it seems that all the armor is already made of plates, and at the same time it is a pity to part with chain mail. And the sword is again "type XVII"


Almost the same age, but from Germany, and the sword is completely different - quite wide and not very long. Before us is Heinrich Bayer von Boppard, who died in 1355. Berlin Bode Museum


Thomas de Cobham, 1401, Cobham. The same transitional armor and a sword with a crosshair and a pommel straight from E. Oakeshott's diagram


Again the Germans ... Burkhard von Schneinberg, 1376, Hildesheim, Nuremberg Museum. The horned helmet looks like a collection at the Imperial Armory in Vienna. The fastening of the bascinet to the chain mail comforter, the "armor" on the hands made of metal plates sewn onto the skin, and plate gloves are perfectly shown. And a sword ... a sword with a "decanter cork" pommel. It was very typical for this particular time.


England also had the same tops. Effigia Hyuga Courtenay, died 1377, Exeter Cathedral


This knight is clearly not one of the rich, but why - see for yourself ... Hanel Landschad von Steinach, died in 1377, Neckarsteinach, Germany, the land of Hesse


For comparison: breaststroke of the Englishman John Foxley, died 1378, Brow-on-Thames, Berkshire


And again Germany, 1400. Tombstone carved knight von Tottenheim, Grunsfeld, in the state of Baden-Württemberg. Pay attention to his sword. Truly, this is an impressive weapon, if only it existed in reality. It is very similar to "type XX", but as a top, again "carafe cork"

And before the appearance of purely "white armor" another 10 years ...

PS The author and the site administration express their gratitude to the British Medieval Society for the photos of the effigy provided!
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 May 2021 05: 59
    +9
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always, pleased with the morning article on the coffee lover with milk!
    Thank you!
    P.s. you quickly get used to good things.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 7 May 2021 07: 10
      +9
      Yes, waited for Friday Charlie!
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!)))
      1. depressant
        depressant 7 May 2021 08: 10
        +12
        knowledge of history has very little effect on our real life, does not even teach us anything, judging by experience. And if so, then who could have thought of cutting down thousands of statues, writing thousands of manuscripts, forging swords and armor. And most importantly - why? To prove to descendants, and quite close to us in time, that the Middle Ages was? Yes, but why are we going to prove it to someone? Well, it was and it was ...


        Yes there was it, the Middle Ages, it was!
        Don't worry so much, Vyacheslav Olegovich!)))
        Having studied for a long time yesterday a miniature from the "Bible of Rhymes", laid out as an illustration for an article about swords by E. Oakeshott, I was amazed: how much labor was invested in it, and how much imagination! Siege of the city, in the lower left corner - a frightened dragon; runs, fleeing from the besieging troops, a hare. In the upper right - a pretty townswoman will be treated to boiled chicken for the guard and the warrior as a token of gratitude for the protection, the guard breaks off a chicken wing. In the very center of the miniature, a donation for the fight against the enemy in a green bag is given to the king by a citizen, and a married couple behind his back with a thieving look takes away their savings in order to hide them more reliably.
        Yes, there is a lot of things!
        Undoubted mastery is not even in technique, not in composition, but in creating a psychologically subtle and varied plot, over which the artist had to think thoroughly and skillfully at the same time compose many of its small branches on a rectangular sheet - such piling over just one miniature, of which in fact, thousands, convincingly proves: there was the Middle Ages, it was. Without any doubt!
        1. kalibr
          7 May 2021 12: 27
          +6
          Quote: depressant
          Don't worry so much, Vyacheslav Olegovich!)))

          How did you decide that I'm worried? Portraying emotions is one thing. Experiencing them is completely different.
          1. depressant
            depressant 7 May 2021 13: 38
            +2
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, yes this is me, jokingly)))

            After all, in fact, there is a whole group of historians, headed by a certain mathematician from Moscow State University, busy proving that there was no first millennium of a new era in the history of mankind. These people placed on a narrow sheet of paper many meters long all the famous historical events, cultural and scientific achievements and equally famous historical figures, and then it turned out that yes, no events, no famous personalities, no scientific discoveries and culture in the first millennium of a new era did not have. From at least 500 to 1000 - for sure!
            And it appeared, a millennium, as a result of the ambitions of the newly-born noble families of barbaric origin, which, in order to give themselves importance in the eyes of others, as well as political weight and gain the ability to control reality, hired professionals and they wrote them pedigrees up to the twentieth generation - just millennium. And since there were a lot of such "newly minted" in Europe, and not only by the end of the last era, a huge number of falsified genealogies, somehow coordinated among themselves by the few specialists who made them up, formed the basis of the history of the first millennium. The story that supposedly does not exist. And yes, of course, there are too many inconsistencies and even more gaps, and most importantly - depletion of events. There were, that's all. What they did, who they fought with, what they invented, what sculptures they sculpted - nothing! But then there is an extra millennium in which nothing happened.
            They say exactly the same situation with the Egyptian pharaohs
            And, according to the whistleblowers, Christ lived and died in fact very close to us. It is not for nothing that experts attribute the shroud to the 12-14 centuries.
            That's what I'm talking about.
            But history can be falsified in different ways.
            That the first millennium was, I have not the slightest doubt. Exactly as there is not the slightest doubt that there was a USSR, the history of which, making more and more imperceptible at first glance efforts, are trying to reduce, change, and then they will say that there was no such country at all.
            And historians in the 30th century will wonder: how did such a huge territory live in the 20th century? No trace! Probably uninhabited.
            1. kalibr
              7 May 2021 13: 48
              +2
              Quote: depressant
              They say exactly the same situation with the Egyptian pharaohs

              They say they milk chickens in Moscow. But this is not the case in reality.
              1. depressant
                depressant 7 May 2021 19: 45
                +4
                Oh, checked means! Meticulous you, however ...
                good wassat ))))
                1. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid 8 May 2021 10: 05
                  +2
                  Quote: depressant
                  Oh, checked means! Meticulous you, however ...
                  good wassat ))))

                  Most likely, the situation here is different, dear Lyudmila Yakovlevna! The author did not answer you very harshly, like others. But he could not answer. After all, you regretted the USSR.
                  And how many times there was schadenfreude, rudeness about this to different people. Mockery of the USSR. After all, this has been observed in various articles and comments for several years.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 8 May 2021 10: 23
                    +3
                    Dima, good morning! )))
                    You haven't been seen for a long time. Vyacheslav Olegovich answered absentmindedly. Apparently, casually marveling at the naivety of my reasoning. It turns out that I walked through Fomenko and his quasi-historical school. There is no merit in this - I did not know the name of the founder of the school! It was just that common sense and understanding of the behavior of large groups of tired people worked, the assumption that at some significant sections of time History seemed to freeze, preparing for the next leap. And my colleague Aviator explained this to me. This is below in the comments.
                    1. Reptiloid
                      Reptiloid 8 May 2021 10: 51
                      +2
                      wink KINDNESS --- Your middle name, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! love
                      ... sound thinking and understanding ...
                      These qualities, plus beautiful, correct speech, plus respect for any interlocutor, make your comments, often, more important than the article.
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 8 May 2021 12: 05
                        +4
                        Dima, you can't evaluate the comments like that, I don't agree with you. It is unacceptable to write a certain number of commentator's character traits into the main advantage of his comments ...
                        Yes, it's nice when they don't "bark" at you, they don't try to impose on you, for example, the image of a fan of "Aryans" and not Aryans, not admitting that you, not seeing the established difference in terms in everyday consciousness, just made a reservation, and thus exalting yourself at the expense of humiliating you, counting on the applause of the public and its own, the public, sympathy.
                        But I prefer either meaningful comments, or witty-evil, and if both do not work out, then they are simply funny, funny, bringing a share of joy into our cloudy, rainy life. At least in my one - for sure. Or the search for truth - such as I often see with you))))
                        I do not accept only speculative, meager adherence to what has received support. Aha! Here the likes were made, and I urge them on, good will come to me too. If I agree with someone, then in order to support a person, moreover, a specific one, giving my very specific justifications for his and his own opinion.
                        Not very cute, right?
                        In fact, Dima, I am a tough person who knows how to respect and support the worthy, and the unworthy - from my biased point of view - to ignore.
                        love hi )))
                      2. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid 8 May 2021 12: 29
                        +1
                        Lyudmila Yakovlevna! yes I could answer you point by point, but I'm afraid I'll get completely confused.
                        Do not think that I speak well of your comments for the sake of self-interest. I like the great comments from Sergey and Tatiana. Always informative, there are beliefs that I share .. hi
                        Puzzled recourse recourse your first phrase ... it seems to me that different interlocutors do exactly that ... I doubt that this is wrong
                      3. depressant
                        depressant 8 May 2021 14: 06
                        +4
                        Dima, don't worry! )))
                        I listen to the sound of thin streams of rain, the sound of their savory slaps on the glass, the bustle of the contact of drops with the window sill, and it seems to me that everything is still ahead, "the rain cannot last forever." I'm just tired of talking, even just touching the touch panel of the phone with my fingers. And you seem to be trying to get from me some great ultimate truth, not suspecting that I simply do not have it)))
                      4. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid 8 May 2021 16: 15
                        +1
                        love wink
                        ..... there is no truth on Earth, but there is no truth above .....
                        I didn’t want to strain you, have a rest under the sound of rain ...
                      5. depressant
                        depressant 8 May 2021 17: 01
                        +3
                        What a rest! Calling you not to take a steam bath, I continue my parking. The respite is just a moment of confusion.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 7 May 2021 18: 47
      +4
      there is a whole group of historians, headed by a certain mathematician from Moscow State University, who are busy proving that there was no first millennium of a new era in the history of mankind.

      You are too soft about the topologist Fomenko, a mathematical academician. He took the common sense of the connection between historical events and astronomical phenomena and completely perverted it, engaging in direct forgeries. About 20 years ago, at our department, we had to communicate with Valyansky, this is also a Fomenkian, and out of habit he lied even in those areas where it was not required. These are believers, it is impossible to dissuade them, since faith does not require proof.
      1. depressant
        depressant 7 May 2021 19: 14
        +3
        And, so that's who Fomenko is!
        And I ... It's just that one day the information brushed my mind, surprised it with its absurdity and passed by, and then suddenly I remembered. And I, not suspecting that everything had been in the know for a long time, fell upon this absurdity, which, on my part, did not demand such a collapse, which you described as soft. This is how it happens when you live in a world of your own dreams. Thank you for bringing it down to the ground)))))
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 7 May 2021 20: 33
          +3
          Briefly about this figure. Taking Ptolemy's star atlas as a basis and comparing the most inaccurately defined stars with modern ones, he "pulled an owl on a globe", claiming that the whole history had lost 1000 years. They were not, but everything was invented by the court chroniclers. It was in the late 70s. Classical historians at first did not pay attention to this eccentricity, but then they had to. At the same time, in the late 70s - early 80s, there was controversy, he was stuck with his nose in a direct scam under the guise of "exact science", he was offended and sent a letter to the science department of the Central Committee of the CPSU with a complaint against his critics. But the department of the Central Committee of the CPSU wisely decided not to get involved in his nonsense, saying that he should understand it himself. In the end, the case turned out to be not only scandalous, but also profitable - a huge amount of literature with its "theory" was published. I wrote that in the 90s at the Department of General Physics I worked together with Valyansky, a Fomenkovite of a lower rank. He specialized in rewriting Russian history, in particular, argued that the Kulikovo field is located on the territory of Moscow, arguing that no burials were found on the site of the traditional Kulikovo field, but everything was built up in Moscow. But at the beginning of the 100s, a joint expedition of archaeologists and IZMIRAN employees found anomalies 50xXNUMX meters in size on the Kulikovo field, which could not be more suitable for mass graves. The problem was that the soil on the Kulikovo field is black soil, and this is a very biologically active environment, in which not a single bone remains for several centuries. Here in the area of ​​Old Ryazan - sandy loam, there the skeletons of the defenders are well preserved, but here is not the case. Now about Valyansky. When his book came out, he gave it to me, and since then I was solving my housing problem, I was aware of the price of housing in our area. So he began to find out from me how much. Since this interest coincided with the publication of the book, I was amazed at the scale of the fee. These "chronolozhtsy" have an exclusively material interest.
          1. depressant
            depressant 7 May 2021 21: 07
            +4
            It turns out that this is a very old controversy, back from the 70s, I had no idea! Thanks for the enlightenment. In the "Secrets of the 20th Century", I remember, there was an article about the Kulikovo field supposedly near Moscow, where some monastery was still mentioned. That is, for 50 years, people, creating a false story, earn money on this, parasitizing on the interest of the reader.
            But on the other hand ... The controversy arising between professionals and pseudo-professionals arouses the reader's interest not only and, perhaps, not so much in a deliberately distorted story, but in a genuine one. If we look at the matter from this point of view, then may I think that the "correct" historians, to some extent, may even be grateful to Fomenko? After all, if he is in demand, then they are also in demand. Without a conflict of interest, any scientific field becomes a boring set of facts that are not interesting to anyone.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 7 May 2021 21: 35
              +3
              It, of course, seems to be so, this discussion helped some popularization of history, but the initial thesis of the Chronologians about the non-recognition of classical historical dating is too wild. It's as if we were starting a discussion about the number of elephants that hold the flat earth, or the quality of the crystal spheres that hold the stars and planets in Aristotle's model. There was such an interesting book, "Application of Information Theory Methods in Physics", the author is Harmut, a specialist in radar, so he very elegantly showed that the deferents and epicycles, which one has to resort to in Aristotle's theory of the universe, this is taking into account the ever higher expansion terms in the Taylor series when choosing the Earth as the center of the Universe. It also gave an example of how the greatest mathematicians of the late 150th - early XNUMXth centuries (Monge, Laplace) argued whether non-Euclidean geometry was possible, and illiterate sailors had been using it for XNUMX years (Mercator projection of navigational charts). So applied science does not threaten to turn out to be "a boring set of truths that are not interesting to anyone."
              1. depressant
                depressant 7 May 2021 22: 04
                +4
                It also gave an example of how the greatest mathematicians of the late 150th - early XNUMXth centuries (Monge, Laplace) argued whether non-Euclidean geometry was possible, and illiterate sailors had been using it for XNUMX years (Mercator projection of navigational charts).

                Colleague, you made me happy)))
                It's like in domestic politics: everything is already clear to everyone, everyone understands how to and how not to, and the government and political power cannot come to this and can only dismissively declare in the direction of society: “Any person from the street imagines that he knows how to run a state and coach a football team. "
              2. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 7 May 2021 22: 36
                +3
                I completely agree with you. Oddly enough, even the textbook example with the "cook, if you teach her, then she can run the state "(an approximate source text of Lenin), and so, even if she is not trained, her ability to run the state is much higher than Academician Sakharov, who is otherwise, as an idiot in this area ( It is difficult to name the government) The same cook is planning the expenditure of the family budget, and this so-called academician, who was unable to make repairs in his apartment, was assigned to make repairs in the country.
              3. depressant
                depressant 7 May 2021 22: 52
                +4
                I believe, dear colleague, your words can be attributed not only to Academician Sakharov. There was a galaxy there.
              4. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 8 May 2021 11: 05
                +3
                Good afternoon, Lyudmila Yakovlevna. I still recall this sabbath with bewilderment at the meetings of the USSR Armed Forces in the late 80s. Few of its members objected to all these murderous "reforms." It seems that its composition was either from the party nomenklatura with varying degrees of intelligence, or from future privatizers. Our professor Kraiko from CIAM was one of the few who voted against these reforms. Yes, here is the same Ligachev, who died yesterday - he knew what not to do, but since our entire ideology was buried by Khrushchev Kukuruzny, he did not know how to do it.
              5. depressant
                depressant 8 May 2021 13: 44
                +4
                Good afternoon!
                Imagine, just the other day I found an article - I didn't believe the content and closed it without taking note. Either stuffing, or the truth. Allegedly, Rockefeller came to the USSR, he was invited to the Central Committee or, rather, to the Politburo, I don’t remember exactly, and he scolded all the top party leaders there so that they stood at attention. And if this is true (it will be necessary to look), then the USSR died together with Joseph Vissarionovich. Right then.
                And I remember very well the persecution that Ligachev was staged in the 80s. Yes, he didn't know how to do it. And if such people did not know, then what to say about ordinary citizens. We relied on others, not suspecting that they were banal traitors who never took the trouble to develop Marxist-Leninist philosophy in accordance with the new conditions. The tree is withered. And now it has been cut down altogether, and there is not even a process that crawls out of the soil.
              6. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 8 May 2021 14: 35
                +2
                About Rockefeller - nonsense, Zionist self-promotion, soon they will declare that they arrange solar eclipses and volcanic eruptions on order. However, if the moronization of the population continues further, then they will believe in it. About the events of the late 80s - do you remember the frightened reaction of the party officialdom to Nina Andreeva's article "I Can't Give Up My Principles"? She had them, but the mass of "middle-level propagandists", like the author you know, did not have it then, and it does not even now. And it never will. And about the underdevelopment of the theory of opposition between labor and capital (Marxism-Leninism) - so I believe that it develops in a hidden, latent form. Lenin and the Bolsheviks, too, until October 1917, no one particularly knew, in RI the most massive opposition party was the Socialist-Revolutionary Party.
              7. depressant
                depressant 8 May 2021 15: 07
                +4
                So about Rockefeller - stuffing, it's good that we talked. I remember about Nina Andreeva. "Ogonyok" and the then extremely politicized "Literaturnaya Gazeta", other sources. As far as I remember, the reproaches were just the same in dogmatism and many other often repeated "isms". And yet - Gorbachev's refrain: we have not yet lived under socialism. Like, the way Lenin intended it.
              8. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 8 May 2021 16: 29
                +1
                Of course, dogmatism went off scale. By that time, the entire ML theory was firmly frozen in quotations of the classics, written at another time and on a different occasion. Although one of the same classics responded to Plekhanov's reproaches: "Marxism is not a dogma, but a guide to action!"
    3. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 8 May 2021 10: 20
      +2
      Greetings, Sergey, hi I always learn something new from your comments (I learned something new about the Fomenkovites) and often think about how much you know from different areas. It always surprised me that you remember well the political events of the 60s about Khrushchev, for example, and the whole background) and further, of the last century. In my opinion, this suggests that you have always been interested in various aspects (not only technical ones), read and all this is stored in your memory and is quickly recalled if necessary. But you all the time work with a heavy load, you are still students, graduate students ... printed works ... more symposia, foreign good yes including......
    4. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 8 May 2021 11: 11
      +2
      Dmitry, standing in line for white bread in childhood, inevitably, you will think about the slogans around (and there were more of them) and their compliance with the surrounding reality.
    5. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 8 May 2021 11: 55
      +2
      Quote: Aviator_
      Dmitry, standing in line for white bread in childhood, inevitably, you will think about the slogans around (and there were more of them) and their compliance with the surrounding reality.

      wink I suppose that you were not only thinking in the queue, you see why I remembered Khrushchev ---- I heard a lot from my relatives about that time, I read it myself, but your comments in those articles conveyed something new ...
      I apologize, I rarely managed to write recently (although I read it), but then I got into conversation, deviating from the topic ...
    6. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 8 May 2021 14: 41
      +3
      At that time, I avidly read Soviet science fiction (Strugatskys, Lem, Efremov, Gor, Dneprov, I. Varshavsky ...) and was in anticipation of a communist future, especially since Khrushch in 1961 announced that all problems had been solved and after 20 years, everything will be like that of Ivan Efremov in his works. And so it became, but not in 1980, but in 1990, and not as in the Andromeda Nebula, but as in the Hour of the Bull.
    7. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 8 May 2021 16: 05
      +2
      I will think about all these years, Sergey, I will remember what I know, and I will write later wink
  • Bar1
    Bar1 9 May 2021 15: 52
    0
    Quote: Aviator_
    He took a sound idea about the connection of historical events with astronomical phenomena and completely perverted it, taking up direct forgeries


    you lie, do not attribute your own inclinations to others.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 9 May 2021 17: 38
      +1


      Well, something like that.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 9 May 2021 18: 08
        -1
        Quote: Aviator_
        something like that.


        Are you an astronomer yourself, or what? Do you understand what is written there?
        This book is an old history, a collection of articles to which Fomenko and Nosovskiy have long ago already answered. But it does not follow from the opposite opposition.

        http://chronologia.org/answers.html
        http://chronologia.org/ans.html

        The authors of the New Chronology ALWAYS respond to any adequate criticism. NH is a CONCEPT-a brief essence boils down to the fact that the main lie of history is a false chronological scale of artifacts, and "scientific" methods for dating RUM, for example, have too large errors to date specific artifacts ...
        Therefore, in order to talk about "perverted", you must first understand the problem yourself, and not throw books as an argument entirely.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 9 May 2021 18: 19
          +1
          Yes, astronomer
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 9 May 2021 18: 44
            0
            Quote: Aviator_
            Yes, astronomer


            I am not an astronomer, but I am an engineer, so I can understand this kind of problem.
            State the essence of your vision of the problem, let's talk in detail.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 8 May 2021 09: 55
    +1
    Good morning, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! hi hi I always gladly read your great comments from the profile, and then into the article, if there is something to write in response recourse
    ... the USSR, whose history ... ... they try to shorten, change ...
    Unfortunately yes. And, in my opinion, this is a carefully constructed plan, like, a little, here, a little tweak, and as a result, a completely different picture is obtained.
    ..... and then they will say .....
    why then? Now indignant cries ---- how dare you condemn Yeltsin? Or honoring Gorbachev ... will history keep their names ...
    1. depressant
      depressant 8 May 2021 10: 35
      +2
      Good morning, Dima! hi ))))

      Well, history has preserved the names of Herostratus and the "original" Domokles. And how do we know what kind of historical memory Gorbachev and Yeltsin agreed on? Proceeding from the fact that history brings great murderers into greats, it writes their names on its tablets, and the names of the great righteous are only in the area of ​​faith, that is, what is desired. And they take on a historical connotation only in the deeds of followers, who often do not meet the requirements of the shining source.
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 8 May 2021 11: 46
        +2
        ... what kind of historical memory they were in ...
        Of course, they counted on various praises and words of respect, but if knowledge about the USSR is minimized or destroyed, then their names, as accompanying the USSR ------, will also be deleted.
        It is possible to scold Russian liberals for all kinds of distortions of history, but the rewriting of our own history is now taking place in other countries, regardless of the USSR.
        1. depressant
          depressant 8 May 2021 13: 55
          +3
          Dima, this is due to the fact that globalization puts all countries under the domination of a single ruling cosmopolitan international, which needs the same subordination of all people regardless of race, national characteristics and, most importantly, historical memory. The latter has special capabilities in crushing a monolithic mass, successfully organizing centers of resistance to adhesion. That is why monuments are being smashed all over the earth.
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 8 May 2021 14: 47
            +2
            That is why monuments are being smashed all over the earth.

            Well, not all over the Earth yet, but it's still a good example. Instead of giving an explanation of who exactly this figure is, and how he became famous, they are demolished in a purely savage way. I just think that the Yeltsin Center should not be demolished, it is necessary to give a description of all his exploits there - both with the airplane wheel, and what was at Shannon airport, and "Take as much sovereignty as you want", a complete picture is needed of the actions of this secretary of the Sverdlovsk regional committee.
            1. depressant
              depressant 8 May 2021 15: 16
              +1
              Not. Definitely not. Archives for professional historians only. You have no idea what ideas are born from contact with rubbish and how they capture people. The good is hard to graft, it is lost quickly, the bad rushes along the earth like fire, for it promises emancipation. A person who behaves well and correctly feels enslaved. Because the vile part of him is clamped down by the ethics of society. And the Yeltsin Center, even in the form in which you described it, is the temptation of evil emancipation.
            2. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 8 May 2021 16: 24
              +1
              Archives for professional historians only.

              And then they, these "professional historians", "middle-level propagandists" will happily boast of the information they have obtained and present it in a form that is beneficial to themselves? There are examples on VO.
          2. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 8 May 2021 16: 23
            +1
            ...... description ..... with airplane wheel .....
            maybe I’m wrong, it’s like I’ve seen it on the net for a long time. But I saw the spoons and his drunken song recently.
            And what do not his modern admirers still remember? About the destruction of the Ipatiev house. That's what.
        2. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 8 May 2021 15: 12
          +1
          ..the same subordination of all people is necessary .......
          however, someone resists, someone defends, someone is waiting, and someone is in a hurry to rewrite. So we already have an author who discovered that the Great French Revolution was no longer a great one for the French, and it was all completely different. There are already plots on the Internet and the book has been published. Will others support?
          1. depressant
            depressant 8 May 2021 15: 25
            +2
            Dima, the "cult of Napoleon's personality" is already being fully exposed in France itself and is only gaining momentum. While within the boundaries of the claim "betrayed the ideals of the Revolution", but not far off, and accusations of ditching the mass of the French in senseless wars. The era of dropping from pedestals has come. By the way, the Strugatskys in "The Doomed City" almost at the end of the book have an episode with the Pantheon. It is extremely indicative. As they say, for all time.
          2. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 8 May 2021 16: 43
            +2
            So we already have an author who discovered that the Great French Revolution was no longer great for the French, and it was not at all like that.

            This is from the field of alternative history. Those French knew better - the Great Revolution, or not. And those who want to "hyip" on the topic are everywhere. And the composition of the French in the last 20 years has changed a lot because of the idle migrants.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 9 May 2021 15: 47
    0
    Quote: depressant
    That the first millennium was, I have not the slightest doubt. Exactly as there is not the slightest doubt that there was a USSR, the history of which, making more and more imperceptible at first glance efforts, are trying to reduce, change, and then they will say that there was no such country at all.


    your statement is unfounded, but the fact that the USSR was still dragged here is also stupidity.
    These are the dates on the old medieval maps, these are i, I, X, j, which means FROM Christ.

    for example, the old i695g card. the city of Belgrade, i.e. the first category that historians accept for physical and mental blindness is not i, but for some reason 1.
    By the way, Belgrade at that time, as well as Moscow, is also a city of mosques - temples with crescents.



    director Elkhov made the film "A Millennium That Wasn't", where he shows, using numerous examples of ancient works of art, that the dates on them are the same without the first thousand.

    1. depressant
      depressant 9 May 2021 18: 06
      +1
      Dear Pavel! )))
      Thank you very much for the provided film. I watched with great interest.
      The engraving "Christ in the Underworld" does indeed have the date j 510.
      Another engraving shows ANNO 527 in general.
      On Russian maps - 740 and 750. Yes, I was told a lot in the film.
      I guess anything can be. But since history has been written as it is now, then maybe it is worth leaving the reworking of dates to subsequent generations of professionals, when "the idea will take possession of the masses"? Mathematicians themselves say that there is a lot of work ahead.
      In any case, it is extremely interesting.
      Happy Victory Day! hi ))))
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 9 May 2021 18: 29
        +1
        Quote: depressant
        But since history has been written as it is now, then maybe it is worth leaving the reworking of dates to subsequent generations of professionals, when "the idea will take possession of the masses"?


        It is not possible to live in a world of crooked mirrors. The country is already mired in a lie, where they only say one thing (pension reform), but do it differently.
        Previously, everything was DIFFERENT. Look at the old buildings, palaces, pyramids, megalithic structures. Aqueducts, all this THIS civilization built on the worship of the golden calf cannot reproduce. "Scientists" cannot understand how this is done, but all because they judge perverted from the point of view of their "science" which does not include the true history of Russia / Russia, therefore they cannot understand anything.
        Shpakovsky in this article gives a photo of old tombstones, but where is the most important funerary symbolism - the cross? There are no crosses, which means that at that time there was no Christianity yet.
        1. depressant
          depressant 9 May 2021 18: 51
          +1
          Pavel, I don't mix all this. The history of past centuries is one thing, but modernity is different. I agree on one thing: the worship of the golden calf has a long tradition)))
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 9 May 2021 19: 02
            +1
            Quote: depressant
            Pavel, I don't mix all this. The history of past centuries is one thing, but modernity is different.


            that's exactly what those who created an extended false chronology, like "and all this was thousands of years ago, so we cannot know this," that is. send history to the distant past and thereby separate the past and the present. It's not like that, the history was short and one thing always followed from the other, the pyramids and the temple of "Jupiter" in Balbeck were not "thousands" of years old, but all this was built recently - maybe hundreds of years, and of course they were not building the Etruscans, who are "thousands" of years old, but the Etruscans / Russians who created Rome, Pompeii and other Italian cities quite recently.
      2. Bar1
        Bar1 9 May 2021 18: 51
        +1
        Quote: depressant
        I watched with great interest.

        if you liked Elkhov's films, then here's the second "Hoax"

        https://youtu.be/uDPuQuKXgJ4
        http://chronologia.org/filmlibrary/2013_elhov_mystification2_2.html
        http://chronologia.org/filmlibrary/2015_elhov_mystification3.html

        the film was shot by a real master.
        1. depressant
          depressant 9 May 2021 18: 53
          +2
          I'll definitely look later!
  • vladcub
    vladcub 7 May 2021 09: 21
    +6
    Namesake, this is 100% true.
    PS I also prefer coffee for breakfast.
    Now I thought: coffee among the people, has become widespread, and more recently, people preferred tea. Probably for about forty years or so, coffee began to spread.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 May 2021 09: 58
      +5
      Hello, Vlad! In the morning I like coffee with milk. My wife has tamed me for fifteen years without sugar. At work, we brew Viennese coffee without milk two or three times. Tea for lunch and in the evening.
      For a holiday tea with lemon and sugar, in the fall with jam and berries. But here the competitors in the “Mama Don't Cry” family on New Year's Eve are sweeping out all the frost, now we are finishing the jam.
      Recently I persuaded my wife to start making the "mushroom" again while in the process of maturation.
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 7 May 2021 11: 17
        +5
        "Kombucha" until recently, almost everyone had, but now ....
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 7 May 2021 12: 32
      +2
      Quote: vladcub
      Namesake, this is 100% true.
      PS I also prefer coffee for breakfast.
      Now I thought: coffee among the people, has become widespread, and more recently, people preferred tea. Probably for about forty years or so, coffee began to spread.

      Moreover, they drank coffee with lemon and coffee with salt))
      The cheap instant Israeli coffee from the parcels of the relatives of Soviet Jews was considered a special chic - it seemed very refined in comparison with what could be obtained in the same Moldova)).
      1. Richard
        Richard 8 May 2021 00: 23
        +3
        The best instant coffee I have ever tasted was the Nicaraguan Maracatu. in simple metal cans ala stew. My Nicaraguan classmate from VU always brought him from home from vacation.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 8 May 2021 00: 33
          +1
          So this is from Nicaragua itself and a classmate - this was not on sale
          1. Richard
            Richard 8 May 2021 00: 59
            +4
            Father, the pilot, when he came on vacation, always brought us acutely deficient disposable Aeroflot packets of instant coffee. Lot...

            But they quickly left - the grandmother distributed them to her companions for the holidays, I to school friends. And they themselves usually drank "coffee" drinks from selmag instead of coffee smile

            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 8 May 2021 01: 01
              +1
              I remember the bags)))
              1. Richard
                Richard 8 May 2021 01: 16
                +3
                I remember the bags


                But the price is as much as 20 kopecks !!! It was not only difficult to get it, but not everyone can afford it. A full lunch in the school cafeteria cost only 15 kopecks. But for gifts to friends, the very thing)))
                Albert, correct me if I'm wrong a can of natural instant coffee cost in the USSR in the 80s, whether four or six rubles
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 8 May 2021 01: 18
                  +1
                  I don't remember - at the age of 14 (1991) I left the Union)))
                  I remember the bags from flying on an airplane as a child. The coffee at home was Israeli from relatives. Lunch - in 89, in my opinion, was already more expensive.
                  1. Richard
                    Richard 8 May 2021 01: 32
                    +2
                    I'm talking about the end of the 70s and the very beginning of the 80s.
                    In 89, I was already a senior in SAPO and received my legal 232 rubles x at a coefficient of 1,8. So I could safely afford not only coffee from disposable sachets smile
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 01: 34
                      +1
                      Not a fig ... at the very beginning of the fifties I almost stopped peeing in my pants and firmly stopped pooping in them laughing
                    2. Richard
                      Richard 8 May 2021 01: 41
                      +2
                      And I was only in the early 60s laughing
                      Means I am younger
                    3. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 01: 42
                      +1
                      I wanted to write 80s)))))))
                    4. Richard
                      Richard 8 May 2021 01: 48
                      +3
                      I wanted to write 80s)))))))

                      Thanks for the timely correction, otherwise I almost got a stroke, smile painfully figuring out how it fits
                      I - at the age of 14 (1991) left the Union

                      и
                      at the very beginning of the fifties I almost stopped peeing in my pants and firmly stopped pooping in them

                      laughing drinks
                    5. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar 8 May 2021 01: 50
                      +1
                      at the very beginning of the fifties I almost stopped peeing in my pants and firmly stopped pooping in them

                      No, well, maybe in a previous reincarnation lol drinks
                    6. vladcub
                      vladcub 10 May 2021 14: 58
                      0
                      Dima, they can't have that: cunning to the point of impossibility. They, Alik, no offense, and in the world they will get it to have money
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 10 May 2021 14: 53
          +1
          Not to lie, a large can of instant coffee "Moscow" (?) Cost 7,50. I'm not sure about the name, but I remember the price: my "friend" had a "fad" - to drink coffee. My aunt always said: "she told me: she spends a lot of money"
    3. Korsar4
      Korsar4 8 May 2021 10: 03
      +1
      The pictures are familiar.

      And all the same: at any time of the year - tea.
      And in the summer - kvass. From the barrel. Or the one that Grandma did.
    4. vladcub
      vladcub 10 May 2021 14: 41
      +1
      Of all the samples I know: "Rostovsky", my friend's grandmother bought, and I saw "Baltika", but then we bought only tea: "Georgian" or "Krasnodarsky"
  • vladcub
    vladcub 10 May 2021 14: 24
    0
    I have not met this
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 7 May 2021 06: 29
    +5
    Good morning. Vyacheslav Olegovich, in fairness, you got a long lyrical digression
    1. Richard
      Richard 7 May 2021 06: 49
      +8
      Good morning everyone
    2. kalibr
      7 May 2021 07: 29
      +8
      "Ostap has suffered!"
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 7 May 2021 07: 37
        +8
        Yeah. Either they have trampled on the calluses of a loved one recently. Either the mood was so-so. In any case, the share of originality has increased.
        1. kalibr
          7 May 2021 07: 44
          +8
          [quote = Korsar4] Either the mood was so-so. In any case, the share of originality has increased.
          It's nice to deal with understanding people ...
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 7 May 2021 07: 46
            +7
            What to do. I will not miss the opportunity to cheer.
      2. Richard
        Richard 7 May 2021 07: 48
        +10
        "Ostap has suffered!"

        Ostap simply supplements "Panikovsky" - interesting topics are touched upon, but everything is somehow casual yes
        However, I can not comment. hi
        1. kalibr
          7 May 2021 08: 01
          +6
          Quote: Richard
          However, I can not comment.

          Richard, you don't get it. I myself did not mean you. I answered Astra, just a comp. somehow put me after you. Don't be offended. Everything that you write is very interesting.
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 7 May 2021 11: 57
        +1
        It depends on where it goes.
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 7 May 2021 09: 28
      +4
      There are two options here: a) V.O was in the mood to talk, this happens when the "sedative" accepts; b) he does not know how to "dilute" the material.
      And which option to choose is at our discretion
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 11: 01
      +5
      Quote: Astra wild2
      long lyrical digression

      And rightly so, I think, it is necessary to remind of such things, trampling this clearing down to the continental layer.
      Previously, such maxims immediately gave rise to a lot of indignant comments from Novokhronolozhites, a little later they began to be replaced by comments of doubters, in the style of "this is so, but there are inconsistencies", now the statements that "the Middle Ages were" seem to be simple banal, long known to all and not subject to discussion.
      The progress in the growth of the level of historical knowledge among the masses is obvious, for which the author, as one of the active plowmen in the field of enlightenment, can only be thanked. smile
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 7 May 2021 12: 08
        +6
        Misha, hello. It remains to V.O. to award the badge: "tireless plowman".
        And I am not there, that "Fomenkovism" does not shine. And Tartary fell into a mess somewhere.
        "Novokhronolozhtsy" or disappeared or united with "hurray-patriotic hamsters"?
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 12: 19
          +6
          Hello, Glory.
          They migrated like lemmings and now reign on other resources. I don’t know where, don’t ask. smile
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 7 May 2021 12: 45
            +2
            We will not cry
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. kalibr
          7 May 2021 12: 33
          +4
          Quote: vladcub
          Misha, hello. It remains to V.O. to award the badge: "tireless plowman".

          Bear the burden of whites, -
          And let no one wait
          No laurels, no rewards
          But know, the day will come -
          From equal wait
          You are a wise judgment
          And weigh it with indifference
          He is your feat then.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 13: 11
            +2
            I like the ending better
            But at the sunset of life
            Without any fuss
            Let your work be appreciated
            The same as you!

            The original text deals with the assessment of peers, that is, equals. Although there is nothing here about dear-bought wisdom, as in the original. Apparently, there is no way to fit it into the line size. request
            1. kalibr
              7 May 2021 13: 49
              +2
              There are several translations, and none is perfect in terms of poetic accuracy.
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 7 May 2021 12: 29
        +2
        I agree: "Fomenkovites" do not appear, and "Klesovites" from time to time remind of themselves: by different halo groups
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 12: 32
          +3
          Haplogroups are not evil in themselves. But to elevate them to the absolute, ignoring the rest of a person's genetic information, to make them a measure of belonging to a particular ethnic group is the height of stupidity.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 33
            +1
            I agree. Paleogenetics, as a section of historical science, is quite a study that has the right to exist. Attempts to interpret History through its prism are the lot of the possessed.
          2. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 8 May 2021 16: 31
            +2
            In addition, it reminds me personally of the "Rosenberg department": they loved something like that. Singling out the superman among the inferior
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 8 May 2021 16: 42
              +1
              Yes.
              Any development of Klesov's ideas will inevitably lead us to a "genetic compass".
              1. Astra wild2
                Astra wild2 8 May 2021 19: 01
                +1
                I totally agree
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 23
        +1
        trampling this clearing to the continental layer.
        Deep funnels will turn out. Can it be easier to pour creosote?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 7 May 2021 06: 31
    +7
    The beginning is odd and the effigii are well chosen.
    A person will drink wine or moonshine, go to the country house or to the forest - so individually that one can consider the habits of a person and his environment from birth.

    It's more interesting that you learned the types of sword, like the notation on the chessboard.
    This is probably convenient.
    1. Richard
      Richard 7 May 2021 07: 00
      +7
      classification of various elements of swords of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance by Ewart Oakeshott
      These 13 types and subtypes are classified by Oakeshott into two large groups. The first group, namely types X-XIV, consists of swords designed primarily against chain mail. They, as a rule, have a wide lenticular blade in cross-section, adapted for cutting and chopping blows. The second group, types XV-XXII, consists of swords designed to defeat plate armor. In swords of this group, a rhombic blade in cross section tapers parallel to a pronounced point, they are well adapted for a thrusting blow. Although most of the swords included in group II are quite capable of chopping blows.
      Studies of the blade, apple, cross, and other hilt elements allow swords to be categorized according to four criteria for description and comparison. It is then possible to group these swords within each type.
      The classification system constructed in this way greatly simplifies the problem of dating the sword, including in connection with the development of the protective armor of "his" era. This typology, of course, is not completely complete or perfect, which is primarily indicated by Oakeshott himself, but it is undoubtedly one of the most effective ways to understand the picture of the development of the medieval sword.

      1. Richard
        Richard 7 May 2021 07: 04
        +6
        Wheeler's typology of Carolingian swords

        After analyzing the geography of finds and styles of jewelry, Wheeler suggested that the following seven modifications of the hilt may be typical for certain regions of use and manufacture: I and II - Norway, III - northwest Germany and southern Scandinavia, IV - all of Europe, V - Anglo-Saxon England , VI - Denmark and VII, the last type used by the Danes, was distributed along the western coast of Europe. Types VIII and IX, which Wheeler missed because it was believed in 1927 that they had spread after the Viking period, provide a link between the two periods. In fact, specimens of both types have been found in tenth century Viking graves.
        Carolingian-style swords are generally medium-sized weapons. The total length is about 1000 mm, with a blade from 700 to 900 mm, and weighing up to 1500 grams. Usually they had a wide blade with two almost parallel blades (that is, both edges of the blade were sharpened) with a slight taper towards the end of the blade and a rounded spade-shaped edge. Some blades had wide and shallow valleys, others deeper and narrower, there were also two-row and even three-row valleys or swords that did not have a valley at all.
        1. Richard
          Richard 7 May 2021 07: 06
          +7
          Typology of Carolingian swords according to Kirpichnikov (based on Peterson's typology)
          1. Richard
            Richard 7 May 2021 07: 09
            +7
            As you can see, there are three main typologies. But they only affect European swords of the Carolingians, the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.
            In my opinion, no less interesting is the map of the halo of finds of Carolingian swords on the territory of the Old Russian state, compiled by Kirpichnikov

            One of the last significant finds in a river in Western Ukraine (2013). The sword belongs to group IV, type W according to Jan Peterson's typology. Dated to the middle of the tenth century. Its length is 955 mm, weight is about 1000 g, very sharp. The handle is bronze.




            1. Richard
              Richard 7 May 2021 07: 16
              +6
              Carolingian swords from the Gnezdovo burial mounds.
              1. Richard
                Richard 7 May 2021 07: 21
                +7
                I recommend to everyone interested an interesting and beautifully illustrated article. Kirpichnikov A.N. "Russian swords of the XI-XIII centuries"
                direct link https://arheologija.ru/kirpichnikov-a-n-russkie-mechi-xi-xiii-vekov/
                1. Richard
                  Richard 7 May 2021 07: 26
                  +7
                  Yes, I almost forgot - there is also a typology of swords in the monograph on blades of the 500th-1110th centuries. Danes A. Brun-Hoffmeyer. The author carefully classified the material in chronological and typological terms (over 1350 blades) and studied two large groups of swords - Romanesque 1350-1500. and Gothic XNUMX-XNUMX.
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 7 May 2021 12: 21
                  +1
                  Dmitry, this is certainly interesting, but especially for the "hurray-patriots" there are Russian swords? After all, the "Carolingians" or "Normans" are not of Slavic origin and somehow not "patriotic."
                  I wanted to insert a "smiley", but "chrome" does not support image insertion
              2. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 7 May 2021 10: 05
                +5
                Carolingian swords from the Gnezdovo burial mounds.

                Dmitry, welcome!
                But the largest mound in our Leningrad region is Shum-mountain. fellow

                There is a legend that Rurik is buried there, but I authoritatively assume that Antinous. laughing As far as I understood, the mound was not excavated. Our "Master of the Trilobite" Mikhail once published an article about him. drinks
                1. Richard
                  Richard 7 May 2021 10: 27
                  +5
                  I happened to pass by - from Gatchina to Pskov, I saw a sign on the road, but I was not on the mound itself - it was not on the way, and I was in a hurry
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 11: 46
                    +1
                    I happened to pass by - from Gatchina to Pskov, I saw a sign on the road, but I was not on the mound itself - it was not on the way, and I was in a hurry

                    I decided to spend an extra hour, but drive "through the hinterland", and was not disappointed. After Shum-Gora, the asphalt highway turned into a dirt road, however, quite bearable, and we had to drive about 20 km along it.
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 7 May 2021 10: 36
                  +5
                  And here is the largest mound in our Leningrad region
                  And the old Ladoga ones are less?
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 12: 15
                    +4
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    old Ladoga less?

                    Less, and much more.
                    The nearest burial mounds, comparable in size, can be found only among the Scythians. Even the royal burial mounds in Scandinavia itself are inferior to this colossus in size.
                  2. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 09: 33
                    +1
                    And the old Ladoga ones are less?

                    Less. You laid out the mythical grave of Oleg, which visually already looks like an ass due to the fact that the Kind People from above have trodden a folk path, which is unlikely to overgrow - everything is according to Pushkin. The mythical grave of his patron and predecessor is larger. yes
                3. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 13: 24
                  +3
                  Nikolai, why Antinous? Do you want "pilgrims" to rush there with rainbow flags - to demonstrate exactly why this character was deified? laughing
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 09: 52
                    +1
                    Nikolai, why Antinous? Do you want "pilgrims" to rush there with rainbow flags - to demonstrate exactly why this character was deified?

                    Anton and Sergei-Korsar got loose about the Pskov region a week and a half ago, someone mentioned Adrian's shaft, comparing it to the "philosophical watershed" of someone who had visited where. drinks I developed the topic. laughing Like, Adrian wanted to arrange a second wave in the Pskov region, but at first Antinous distracted him from work, and then the same ruddy young man got drunk, climbed to swim in Velikaya, and drowned there - right opposite the future Kremlin. request Therefore, he was buried in the northernmost place, where the Romans reached - in Shum-mountain, and the fact that Antinous drowned in the Nile - this is all Dio Cassius distorted, it did not matter with his geography. lol
                    Antinous is generally an extremely interesting phenomenon in the artistic environment ... what Not only did Adrian deify him (and this, forgive me, is a unique phenomenon for the posthumous awarding of a Greek migrant worker because of the Pale of Settlement, especially with such dubious fame!), But the unfortunate swimmer himself also became a canon in sculpture - something a picture-handsome young man, even if you shoot in anime right away. fellow
                    For example, in Gatchina there are already two Antinoes. Copies from the 18th century, made from antique statues excavated in Hadrian's villa. It looks like they were brought there even under Grigory Orlov. yes

                    и

                    But the grave itself was not found! It is believed to rest in Hadrian's villa ... But:
                    In 1975, a badly damaged and almost incomprehensible inscription on one of the obelisks was reinterpreted in Rome. These mysterious writing - Egyptian hieroglyphs of a bizarre shape - lack key words. The last decryption, still contested by scientists, read something like this: “Oh, Antinous! This deceased rests in this grave in the country estate of the Roman emperor. " In 1952, archaeologists began to excavate that part of Hadrian's villa in Tibour, which was called Canopus.
                    From the bottom of the old watercourse, they removed fragments of arches and long stone slabs. Some scholars believe that all this once supported a stone roof or canopy. Among the statues found nearby were four statues of Greek koros - copies of caryatids from the portico of the Erechtheion on the Athenian Acropolis, and two giant statues of satyrs holding baskets of fruit. In the era of Hadrian, such images usually accompanied burial structures and often served as props for the canopy over the grave. But if Antinous really rests in the villa, no one has disturbed his ashes yet.

                    http://history-gatchina.ru/article/egyptwh.htm
                    And if the grave of Antinous is not in Italy - this is another argument of my theory about the Noise Mountain! wink drinks
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 11 May 2021 11: 02
                      +1
                      MMM yeah... recourse
                      Do we know for sure that he was buried, and not torn to pieces by Nile crocodiles or eaten by Pskov smelt?
                      In any case, I propose to keep this character away from native aspens, otherwise we will really contemplate the rainbow flag at the top of Shum Mountain. Even if it was, as you say, this is exactly the case when knowledge should not be made public!
                      laughing
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 11: 30
                        +1
                        Even if it was, as you say, this is exactly the case when knowledge should not be made public!

                        But I wonder why it (Shum-mountain) has not yet been excavated?
                        I read your discussion with Sergei about retrograde and the last moments ... Immediately I remembered Arakcheev, who wheezed "Cursed death!" and died. By the way, on an occasion I bought a book about him in Staraya Russa - about the Gruzino estate. It really turned out that the cast-iron lions placed in front of the museum in the Novgorod Kremlin were taken from there! Moreover, they survived the war ... drinks
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 11 May 2021 13: 46
                        +1
                        They did not excavate because it is very expensive and because it is a unique monument. In addition, it is quite possible that there is nothing interesting inside. In short, they know better. smile
                      3. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 13: 51
                        0
                        They did not excavate because it is very expensive and because it is a unique monument. In addition, it is quite possible that there is nothing interesting inside. In short, they know better.

                        Yeah, otherwise they will suddenly unearth, and there really is Antinous in an embrace with her beloved Adrian chi-hua-hua. repeat Or Rurik - with the necessary haplogroups from the great tartars ... wassat What is scary? wink drinks Just kidding! I'm afraid of you myself, Mikhail! yes
                        .. Long ago we could have analyzed the remains of Elder Fyodor Kuzmich. what That would prove whether he was a relative of Alexander III or not. hi But no one will do this, because precisely because it is "scary". belay What if it's a parricide king? There will be a huge scandal, both among historians and among the Romanovs! good And I will be laughing for a long time ... lol
                      4. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 11 May 2021 14: 02
                        +1
                        The scandal is bullshit. Many people just want this, no one is afraid of anything. And Noise Mountain is just a pity. After all, it will have to be disassembled by grains of sand ... Let it be worth it ... Although it is curious what is inside. Maybe it's true, it's worth digging under it somehow and studying it from the inside ...
                      5. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 14: 07
                        +1
                        Maybe it's true, it's worth digging under it somehow and studying it from the inside ...

                        Dark night...
                        Only under the Luga the shovel rings -
                        This is what Mikhail Antinoy is looking for ...
                        (Daikokuya Kodayu, St. Petersburg, 1791, after meeting with Tsarevich Pavel).
                        Many people just want this, no one is afraid of anything.

                        That would be too .. um .. a "good" ending to the life of a paricidal son ... It's just a brain explosion. We need to write novels about this.
                      6. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 11 May 2021 14: 27
                        +1
                        And what - to bring some supports into the slopes of the mountain in order to exclude a collapse inward and remove the middle, having thoroughly studied everything. And then make a museum inside. I would go to this - to be inside the mound - it's wonderful!
                        And what they find - they will find, Rurik so Rurik, Antinous so Antinous, even a reptilian or Hyperborean in an embrace with an Atlantean. Even if it turns out that Rurik was a Pesieglavet, it's still interesting. laughing
                      7. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 14: 58
                        +1
                        And what - to bring some supports into the slopes of the mountain in order to prevent collapse inward and remove the middle, having thoroughly studied everything. And then make a museum inside.

                        Vooot! Already the motivation has appeared, and the engineering idea has started working! good
                        Even if it turns out that Rurik was a Pesieglavet, it's still interesting.

                        My theory goes to hell - it turns out not Rurik, not Antinous, but St. Christopher! stop By the way, your museum will also fly like plywood - there the church will immediately connect ... request But there will be more than enough pilgrims! The road for them will be rolled better than the new St. Petersburg-Moscow highway, and in a couple of years they will also make a toll road ... Moscow will have to be renamed Old Vasyuki, and Luga - New Moscow. No, right away - to the Fifth Rome! fellow drinks The nearby village of Medved will be renamed New-Medvedkovo ... No, in Bolshoye Medvedyatino. yes
                      8. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 11 May 2021 17: 44
                        +1
                        Yes, it is not known which is worse - pilgrims with crosses or with rainbow flags. smile
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 7 May 2021 07: 31
    +4
    Very interesting. And what is sharp - has survived even through time?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • kalibr
    7 May 2021 07: 30
    +7
    Sergey! So after all, I've been doing this for many years ... I learned it almost by heart ...
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 7 May 2021 07: 39
      +4
      Sure. This is an example that knowledge is good when structured.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 7 May 2021 08: 36
    +5
    Quote: Korsar4
    The beginning is odd and the effigii are well chosen.
    A person will drink wine or moonshine, go to the country house or to the forest - so individually that one can consider the habits of a person and his environment from birth.

    It's more interesting that you learned the types of sword, like the notation on the chessboard.
    This is probably convenient.

    And I liked the beginning - something that we all think about, but do not talk about laughing
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 34
      0
      "Do you want to talk about it?" laughing
  • Catfish
    Catfish 7 May 2021 11: 50
    +4
    A man will drink wine or moonshine, go ... to the forest - so individual

    This is for sure, individuality, this is precisely the feature that distinguishes a person from an animal. laughing
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 7 May 2021 13: 16
      +3
      "Who doesn't owe friends,
      He is hardly generous to his friends ”(c).
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 7 May 2021 13: 24
        +3
        "The prices I paid myself were not small,
        Do not bargain, do not skimp
        Substitute the scarlet lips
        Sit down closer to the young man "(c)
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 7 May 2021 15: 09
          +3
          "A ugly merchant rode from the fair,
          Ukhar-merchant, daring fellow "(c).
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 7 May 2021 15: 36
            +3
            "I'll go out into the street, I'll look at the village" (c)
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 36
              +3
              "I got drunk drunk,
              I won't go home early. "(C)
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 7 May 2021 18: 54
                +3
                "Let the wine splash on the walls of the glass" (c)
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 7 May 2021 19: 01
                  +4
                  "The tablecloth is white
                  Filled with wine "(c).
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 7 May 2021 19: 54
                    +2
                    "In an open field, in a white field
                    Everything was white and white
                    Because this field
                    White snow covered. "(C)
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 7 May 2021 21: 07
                      +2
                      “The hair was blacker than pitch,
                      He became gray-haired "(c).
                    2. Catfish
                      Catfish 7 May 2021 21: 19
                      +2
                      Was dark no, no,
                      Has become gray in smoke, smoke,
                      And the hip-hip died
                      From wine. "(C)
                    3. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 05: 50
                      +2
                      “And the one hurts
                      Who does not drink anything ”(c).
                    4. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 10: 13
                      +2
                      "And that my friend's glasses were broken,
                      So they aggravated the port wine. "(C)
                    5. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 10: 18
                      +2
                      “I can gnaw glasses at the same time,
                      And to read Schiller without a dictionary "(c).
                    6. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 10: 41
                      +2
                      "I am everyone's favorite faceted glass.
                      I am a symbol of the Soviet era! "(C)
                    7. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 11: 37
                      +2
                      "Faceted cups
                      They fell off the table "(c).
                    8. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 11: 50
                      +1
                      "We gave him vodka, yeah ...
                      We gave him vodka
                      Our comrade fell. "(Almost S.)
                    9. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 11: 58
                      +2
                      "He did not return from the battle yesterday" (c).
                    10. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 12: 07
                      +2
                      "Again we will go into battle
                      For Holy Russia,
                      And as one shed
                      Young blood. "(C)
                    11. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 12: 09
                      +2
                      "The head is tied,
                      Blood on the sleeve "(c).
                    12. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 12: 26
                      +2
                      "We die once and for all.
                      Death is not terrible, but mortal suffering.
                      If this clay is a lump and a drop of blood
                      Disappear suddenly - no big deal. "(C)
                    13. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 12: 31
                      +2
                      "By the decayed Caesar from the cold
                      Close up of the house outside ”(c).
                    14. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 12: 37
                      +2
                      "Oh, where I was yesterday, I don't remember now,
                      I only remember that the walls with wallpaper. "(C)
                    15. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 12: 39
                      +2
                      "Do you believe me or not?" (from).
                    16. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 13: 19
                      +2
                      "Now you can't trust anyone. I can" (S. Muller))))
                    17. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 13: 37
                      +2
                      "It all depends on the mine" (c).
                    18. Catfish
                      Catfish 8 May 2021 15: 40
                      +2
                      "All because the guy with the gun
                      Corrected the roll behind the back "(c)
                    19. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 8 May 2021 15: 58
                      +1
                      “A soldier is walking through the city,
                      Along an unfamiliar street "(c).
  • Richard
    Richard 7 May 2021 21: 31
    +4
    I got drunk drunk
    I won't go home early. "(C)

    Arton hi
    For the sake of truth, the sign (c) is clearly superfluous.
    "I got drunk" by Kadysheva is not the original, but just one verse of Afinogen Silantievich Malakhov's song "Today is Sunday, my dear did not come"
    The song is about how a young Cossack woman, without waiting for the groom with the promised azure scarf at the party, got drunk out of grief and is now afraid to go home so as not to get scolded by her mother. , and their regiment is urgently sent to the Japanese war in the Far East and that night on alarm they are loaded into wagons
    .. I sober up at once,
    unable to hold back tears
    and rushed faster
    run to the station ..

    ... But God did not give. did not have time ... the train had already left, there was no one ... only a tied azure scarf was beating in the wind on the station bush ...
    link: The original song on the internet is available in the performance of the GAPiP "Terskie Cossacks" under the control of bunkers. art RF Gal. Bocharova.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 7 May 2021 21: 48
      +5
      Dmitry, let's not?
      On the one hand, the "sobbing of a Cossack woman" is equivalent to "crying Yaroslavna," on the other, to the Rostov "blatnyak". All three, I am skeptical, as historically and socially engaged.
      1. Richard
        Richard 7 May 2021 22: 08
        +5
        Dmitry, let's not?

        Let's not.
        Let me just ask one question. And other Malakhov songs "Rumble a reed", "A branch of lilac", Oh frost, frost "also cause skepticism in you, as a Rostov" rogue "and historically and socially engaged?
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 7 May 2021 22: 29
          +5
          Dmitry, I always have skepticism about the nationality of true Russian songs, because, wherever you spit, "true folk" are narrowly professional.
        2. Richard
          Richard 7 May 2021 23: 23
          +5
          I absolutely agree with you. Everything included in the golden fund of Russian folk song did not arise simultaneously throughout the territory of Russia, but each has its own territorial professional and class location.
          And my negativity has nothing to do with you - it is caused by a reaction to modern "remakes" of primary sources. For example, who now remembers the wonderful recruiting song of the WWII era "Wait a steam locomotive", but everyone knows its thug "version", or the miner's "Konogon", which became in the Second World War "Tanks rumbled on the field" (IMHO, the only worthy remake of all)
          P / S Anton, forgive me, for God's sake, for:
          Arton hi

          An extremely annoying typo - the keyboard goes down
          Best regards
          Dmitriy
        3. Korsar4
          Korsar4 8 May 2021 05: 57
          +4
          I wonder when the song becomes popular.
          There are some signs of the times.
          And drinking songs unite - from Baltiysk to Ussuriisk.
          Only now it is less common.

          Although even now something can manifest itself in Slepakov, Shnur and an individual, Rasteryaev.
        4. Richard
          Richard 8 May 2021 07: 51
          +3
          Are there any signs of the times?

          Good morning Sergey. A very correct observation. Of course have. There is a must. After all, their authors wrote for certain events and their social circle. But when they become public, these social and time stamps disappear from the song. An example is the recruiting song of the RYAV times "Oh frost, frost, do not freeze me". The last four verses are known only in Cossack families:
          ... I can't live in a family with a young wife
          They only allowed me to say goodbye to her,
          just say goodbye to her, collect the toroka
          and spend the night with my family.
          Well, in the morning again to be in the regiment.
          Our regiment will be taken to the Amur River ...

          The rest of them simply did not hear about them - the identification markers were removed, but now the song is suitable for all segments of the population tolerantly.
          And the opposite example, when they insert their identification markers into a famous song, making it "their own" - the well-known "Cossack" song "Spring will not come for me, the Don will not pour out for me." Cossack in it is only the word Don and that's it. In fact, this is a well-known officer's romance of 1708 (during the Kabardian war) by Lieutenant Infantry A. Gadalin. Here is its original:
          SPRING WILL COME NOT FOR ME
          Words and music by A. Gadalin
          Spring will not come for me
          Not for me song will spill
          And the heart will beat happily
          Delighted with feelings not for me.
          Not for me the river, rustling,
          Brega washes his relatives,
          The lapping of gentle waves caresses the soul:
          It flows not for me.
          Not for me in my native country
          The family around Easter will meet,
          "Christ is risen," - from the mouth will pour,
          Easter Day, no, not for me.
          The moon is not for me, shining,
          The native grove becomes silver,
          And the nightingale meets her:
          He will not sing for me.
          But spring will come for me
          I will swim to the Abkhazian shores,
          I fight with the Asian people,
          There a bullet has been waiting for me for a long time.

          And there are thousands of such examples
        5. Richard
          Richard 8 May 2021 08: 06
          +3
          Although even now something can manifest itself in Slepakov, Shnur and an individual, Rasteryaev.

          Of course it will appear. You can't stop time. And remakes will appear on their popular songs as well. That's life
        6. Korsar4
          Korsar4 8 May 2021 08: 32
          +3
          Good morning, Dmitriy!

          And there are some keywords that you respond to - even without geo-referencing.

          And "Oh, you are a wide steppe."
          And "A tramp is coming to Baikal."

          It does not matter whether it is Cossack or merchant.
          And the road unites everything.

          And even Western songs find their place in our land.

          The same "Two Soldi".
        7. Richard
          Richard 8 May 2021 09: 11
          +2
          In general, all the songs and romances that Polina Agureeva performs to my liking and White Night "and" Ring "and" Harlequin ", and of course" Two Soldi ".
          But I have never heard of her being sung at a feast. And hardly anyone can pull it - the melody itself is painfully difficult. At the very least, you need to have perfect hearing.
        8. Korsar4
          Korsar4 8 May 2021 09: 34
          +3
          Me too. From this song on "Liquidation" and came across.
          Brodsky's poems cannot be sung at a table.

          Mikhail Shcherbakov is also difficult.

          The time will come - another Nikolai Rubtsov will appear.
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 11: 52
      +1
      In fact, this is the famous officer's romance of 1708 (during the Kabardian war) by lieutenant infantry A. Gadalin.

      Dmitry, I ask for more details - did Russia at the time of Peter the Great fought with Kabarda? hi
      Of the songs altered, one can recall "Beyond the Liaokhe River" - "A Hundred Young Fighters from the Budennovsky Troops".
    3. Richard
      Richard 11 May 2021 12: 00
      +1
      Of course not. The romance was written by A. Gadalin in 1808.
    4. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 12: 10
      0
      Of course not. The romance was written by A. Gadalin in 1808.

      EMNIP, then was Georgia joining? And the Persian War?
    5. Richard
      Richard 11 May 2021 12: 41
      +1
      Not. we are talking about the Russian-Kabardian (Circassian) war of 1763-1864. Circassians, Kabarda, Circassians, Abkhazians, Dzhigets are one people that made up Great Kabarda.
    6. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 13: 10
      0
      Not. we are talking about the Russian-Kabardian (Circassian) war of 1763-1864. Circassians, Kabarda, Circassians, Abkhazians, Dzhigets are one people that made up Great Kabarda.

      Dmitry, I feel like a dundu. I heard about the Caucasian war, but not about this one. Is it an offshoot?
    7. Richard
      Richard 11 May 2021 13: 30
      +1
      not. this is not an offshoot, the War with Shamil is just a small conflict compared to this one. The bitter paradox of that war was that friendly states fought among themselves, which for centuries had fought shoulder to shoulder together in all regional conflicts. The number of victims is simply prohibitive. The war lasted over 100 years. Have you ever wondered why the famous Krasnaya Polyana near Sochi is called that?
      Nikolay, just hammer into the search "Russian-Kabardian (Circassian) war". hi
    8. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 13: 32
      +1
      Nikolay, just hammer into the search "Russian-Kabardian (Circassian) war".

      Scored.
      http://www.natpressru.info/index.php?newsid=5907
      Is the war with Shamil part of the Kabardian war? Or are these two wars independent at all?
    9. Richard
      Richard 11 May 2021 13: 33
      +1
      Completely independent
    10. Richard
      Richard 11 May 2021 13: 42
      +1
      It was a shock for Catherine when ALL Russian Cossack troops refused to fight against their eternal ally Kabarda. Therefore, only the army men and the Cossacks and the Black Sea Cossacks resettled there from the Ukraine by Catherine and the Black Sea Cossacks, who later founded the Kuban Cossacks in the occupied territories, fought.
    11. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 13: 43
      +1
      Completely independent

      HM interesting. I have always linked the death of Marlinsky and Phillipson's note to the Caucasian War. It turns out that what happened on the Black Sea coast stands out separately. But not on Wikipedia!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 7 May 2021 06: 33
    +5
    So I thought: can the characters of "Game of Thrones" be subdivided by types of sword?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 7 May 2021 06: 56
      +6
      The film crew armed the Dothraki with a likeness of the ancient Egyptian khopesh.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 May 2021 07: 26
        +7
        Quote: Korsar4
        So I thought: can the characters of "Game of Thrones" be subdivided by types of sword?


        Quote: 3x3zsave
        The film crew armed the Dothraki with a likeness of the ancient Egyptian khopesh.


        Hi guys!
        To my surprise, the segment of swords from Game of Thrones is very, very much in demand!

        Jon Snow's sword 23 wooden.

        Robb Stark's sword is almost 7 wooden.
        Economy rules !!!
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 7 May 2021 07: 34
          +6
          Hello Vladislav!

          Not a bad gift option, for example, for an anniversary.
          My eldest, for example, likes Arya.

          On the other hand, someone will introduce themselves to Daenerys. And then the dragon is required.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 May 2021 08: 45
            +8
            On the other hand, someone will introduce themselves to Daenerys. And then the dragon is required.
            Since last year, the Krasnodar Higher Military School has been announcing the recruitment of female cadets for the specialty: control of military transport aircraft, fighters, attack aircraft, long-range aircraft.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 7 May 2021 09: 01
              +5
              Pratchett is not enough for them - to breed dragons.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 7 May 2021 09: 17
                +6
                There are enough of our own breeders. See S. and M. Dyachenko "Ritual".
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 7 May 2021 11: 28
                  +2
                  A good network has already offered me a movie on this topic.
            2. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 7 May 2021 19: 06
              +2
              I met last year: a girl cadet. And she also asked: isn't she scared? After talking with her, I began to treat our youth differently: there are villains among them, but there are also wonderful guys and girls
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 7 May 2021 19: 25
                +3
                And "them" are never afraid.
                Until the age of 20 it is not scary to die, up to 25 it is not scary to kill ... However, those who managed to survive these critical days become professionals.
        2. bubalik
          bubalik 7 May 2021 07: 36
          +8
          How Valyrian Steel Was Tempered smile
        3. depressant
          depressant 7 May 2021 08: 26
          +8
          Hello Vladislav! Good morning everybody! love ))
          Only 7 thousand rubles, did you mean?
          For the sword? Can not be.
          Combat knives are at least somewhat worthwhile - about 3 thousand rubles, good ones reach a hundred and more. A few months ago, due to an unimportant criminal situation, I asked about the topic, so the Internet still sends me ads. It turns out that there are many wonderful gunsmiths in the country. Yes, there are also proposals for replicas of the 30s and VM and even famous knives, but this means that there were originals.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 7 May 2021 08: 42
            +5
            My colleagues make handles for knives. They experiment with different types of wood. And, of course, they talk to steel masters.
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 May 2021 10: 06
            +5
            Yes, I was wrong 9800! But still not expensive.
            However, they also have a lineup of other fantasy worlds!
            Guess where?




            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 May 2021 10: 07
              +4
              Continuation of the site


              1. depressant
                depressant 7 May 2021 11: 46
                +5
                So what is there to guess? It also says: online store "Kuznitsa" wassat
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 37
                  +2
                  Bravo, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 7 May 2021 19: 26
                    +3
                    Embarrassed, I lowered my eyes and drive my foot on the floor wassat )))
              2. Korsar4
                Korsar4 7 May 2021 13: 20
                +3
                A gift with an orc weapon will make you think.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 7 May 2021 14: 55
                  +7
                  Orcs are elves who grew up in depressed areas.
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 7 May 2021 15: 10
                    +4
                    Is there a chance to go back to the original source?
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 14
                      +3
                      Difficult, see x / f "Beginning".
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 7 May 2021 19: 03
                        +2
                        If your hands get there.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 7 May 2021 19: 18
                        +4
                        If they don’t get it, I’ll be upset. An excellent film that matches your attitude (well, in my understanding) ...
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 8 May 2021 07: 42
                        +2
                        It's almost blackmail.
                        Let me clarify: did you mean "Beginning" with Churikova, or "Beginning" with DiCaprio?
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 May 2021 08: 24
                        +3
                        Let's just say with Cillian Murphy. His acting is more interesting to me.
          3. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 May 2021 19: 32
            +3
            Also "blush up your face", like "smolenka" at the prom. laughing
      2. bk0010
        bk0010 7 May 2021 14: 16
        +4
        Can you really cut with these swords or are they made of "foil"?
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 May 2021 16: 47
          +3
          Quote: bk0010
          Can you really cut with these swords or are they made of "foil"?

          The steel is good, but the sharpening is "rough".
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 41
            +3
            Who will give you a normal sharpening angle when forging? Forgotten, remind the article?
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 7 May 2021 08: 38
    +6
    Quote: Korsar4
    So I thought: can the characters of "Game of Thrones" be subdivided by types of sword?

    Certainly
    1. depressant
      depressant 7 May 2021 15: 16
      +5
      And even by the method of killing relatives.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 7 May 2021 16: 05
        +3
        Yes, Jon Snow first fell in love with his aunt, then stabbed him to death - hot muschina, uh ..
        And Jofri would have done the opposite
        1. depressant
          depressant 7 May 2021 16: 33
          +5
          And how did Cersei Lannister kill her unloved daughter-in-law? Somehow that fire was called ...
          Below I have published a more modern method of killing relatives. wassat )))
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 51
            +4
            "When the cat has nothing to do, he watches Game of Thrones."
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 May 2021 19: 31
              +4
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              "When the cat has nothing to do, he watches Game of Thrones."


              What? What?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 7 May 2021 19: 48
                +5
                This cat is clearly fascinated by the action taking place, and not by his own testicles.
              2. depressant
                depressant 7 May 2021 19: 48
                +3
                Here below the comment has been deleted. I assume the signature to the expressive canvas presented above by an unknown author.
            2. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 11 May 2021 16: 24
              +1
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              "When the cat has nothing to do, he watches Game of Thrones."

              And not only laughing
        2. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 16: 20
          +2
          And Jofri would have done the opposite

          And some would have done otherwise ... Intricate dude! wink
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 11 May 2021 16: 25
            +2
            The most humane character after Jofri laughing
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 16: 27
              +1
              The most humane character after Jofri

              Until he grabs the sausage! lol or does not call the dogs ...
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 11 May 2021 16: 32
                +1
                You mean until you cook the sausage laughing
  • The comment was deleted.
  • ee2100
    ee2100 7 May 2021 09: 14
    +8
    Good morning!
    Drawing with effigia in the church of Niguliste (St. Nicholas)
    1. Richard
      Richard 7 May 2021 09: 29
      +10
      Good day, Alexander hi
      Although I have never been to Tallinn, Niguliste is a painfully familiar word from childhood. Some famous film was filmed there, EMNIP ... Although I may be mistaken
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 7 May 2021 09: 31
        +8
        Hi Dmitry!
        It seems childish. If I'm not mistaken "adventure of the yellow suitcase"
        The church is very worthy! And consistently good exhibitions
        1. Richard
          Richard 7 May 2021 09: 35
          +10
          Exactly !!! Yellow suitcase!
          Thank you. good I almost broke my head. I even went to the Internet on purpose, and did not find anything
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 7 May 2021 09: 45
            +7
            In 1982 the church was on fire. So the spire is new. There is a photo on the Internet.
            In the morning I walk along the underground passage under Victory Square, and there are fire brigades on the floor. I thought it was teachings. It was burning at night (maybe Petoov and Bashirov?)
            In the evening, I went to look at the conflagration - it didn't work!
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 7 May 2021 10: 11
              +6
              maybe Petov and Bashirov

              These churches are not involved. Only if there is a powder store. laughing
              An interesting fact - in the Polotsk Cathedral of Hagia Sophia, there was a similar warehouse during the Northern War, and such a thing, well, cannot fail to explode, which happened ... request As a result, in the middle of the 18th century, a rebuilt church was erected on the remains of the cathedral - no longer in the form of an Old Russian temple (but "Sophia", EMNIP, there were three - Kiev, Novgorod, Polotsk), but in the style of the Vilna baroque. It looks more like a church. hi
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 7 May 2021 11: 34
                +7
                Hi, Nikolay! hi
                and such a thing, well, can't help but pull,

                Likewise. Vladimirsky Cathedral on Chersonesos in Sevastopol. There was an ammunition depot in it, a shell hit, and this is the result. I found him still dilapidated.

                Now it looks like this.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 09: 59
                  +1
                  Likewise. Vladimirsky Cathedral on Chersonesos in Sevastopol.

                  Handsomely! Just that this cathedral was used as a warehouse during the Great Patriotic War? And the Polotsk one - during the Northern one, when, it seems, the relics were treated in a completely different way ... And among the Poles there is a heartbreaking tale, as in the Polotsk cathedral some time before, Tsar Peter personally beat several Polish priests to death! belay
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 11 May 2021 13: 02
                    +1
                    The Poles have a lot of tales, including about Poland "from Mozha to Mozha". The people are rich in fantasy. laughing
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 13: 22
                      +1
                      The Poles have a lot of tales, including about Poland "from Mozha to Mozha". The people are rich in fantasy.

                      Ambition! request The state is so specific! drinks
                      - The condition is specific. Experienced, sir?
                      - N-no, God had mercy.
                      (x / f "Monk and the Devil". Just now there is a conversation about wisdom). wink
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 11 May 2021 13: 24
                        +1
                        There was such a Polish film "Full speed ahead", where the Poles laughed rather caustically at this quality of theirs. smile
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 13: 27
                        0
                        There was such a Polish film "Full speed ahead", where the Poles laughed rather caustically at this quality of theirs.

                        Did not watch. The last thing I watched from Polish cinema was "The Deluge" from the 70s. It was shown on the historical channel in 2013. laughing
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 11 May 2021 13: 48
                        +1
                        Look, you will laugh. Ambition - ambition, but with a sense of humor everything is in order there. smile
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 13: 53
                        +1
                        and with a sense of humor everything is fine there

                        If you have already appreciated it, then really - everything is in order! drinks Entertainer ... wink
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 11 May 2021 14: 07
                        +1
                        Be sure to check the News for "Directed Energy Technologies Used": The United States voiced suspicions against the GRU about involvement in attacks on intelligence officers. "
                        There, almost at the beginning of the comments, a video from the cartoon with a song about Petrov and Bashirov, I neighing heartily.
                      6. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 14: 27
                        +1
                        There, almost at the beginning of the comments, a video from the cartoon with a song about Petrov and Bashirov, I neighing heartily.

                        Thanks to our dear Alexander - I've already seen! good drinks
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 7 May 2021 10: 00
    +7
    Drawing with effigia in the church of Niguliste (St. Nicholas)

    Here you have a wheeled pistol, and a combat sword, and a morion, and a solid breastplate. Straight conquistador! drinks And who does the picture represent?
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 7 May 2021 10: 03
      +7
      This is one of the members of the Brotherhood of Blackheads.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 7 May 2021 10: 07
        +8
        This is one of the members of the Brotherhood of Blackheads.

        Hmm .. Don't you think that you have just voiced the topic for your new article? what You are a good local historian, Alexander, and, living in Estonia, you know such local historical subtleties that we have never heard of. hi I just learned about this brotherhood - from you! request
        1. Bolt cutter
          Bolt cutter 7 May 2021 10: 46
          +8
          living in Estonia, you know such local historical subtleties that we have never heard of
          The Blackheads had a kind of "head office" in Riga. Some nationalist historians in Latvia call the House of the Blackheads a "den of homosexuals" belay
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 7 May 2021 11: 08
            +6
            There were 2 of them, in Riga, it seems it is a little older than the Tallinn one. Why "brothel"?

            Riga, last year.
          2. ee2100
            ee2100 7 May 2021 11: 09
            +5
            And this is Tallinn

            House on Pikk street
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. ee2100
          ee2100 7 May 2021 13: 58
          +5
          Nikolay! Much has been written about the Brotherhood of Blackheads. There is no point in rewriting other people's work. And I don't know about them yet.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 09: 55
            0
            There is no point in rewriting other people's work. And I don't know about them yet.

            Alexander, I don’t think I don’t know history at all ... But I heard about them for the first time from you! And many heard for the first time, I think ...
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 11 May 2021 10: 11
              +2
              I have one topic, but somehow my soul does not lie. And the photos were taken and consult with Mikhail and Vaschenko. Means not ripe. And I will think about your proposal.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 11 May 2021 10: 33
                0
                And the photos were taken and consult with Mikhail and Vaschenko. Means not ripe. And I will think about your proposal.

                So, everything is there, you just need to wait for inspiration! drinks
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 11 May 2021 10: 56
                  +2
                  Probably yes, but the topic is very boring - settlement
  • kalibr
    7 May 2021 12: 39
    +6
    It's a pity there is no photo of the effigia itself ...
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 7 May 2021 13: 55
      +5
      Somehow I'll take a walk and see if it will work out.
      1. depressant
        depressant 7 May 2021 14: 30
        +6
        Effigia gave me an attack of a conditioned reflex wassat ))))
        So I read the article, I look at the illustrations. One effigy, second, third ...
        And when their number reached a certain limit, the once developed reflex was awakened. I wanted to get up, vaguely nod their heads in different directions to the host of relatives sitting behind the "effigia" under the awning, muttering: "I sympathize!"
        The fact is that life in Abkhazia obliged you to attend a funeral if someone in the collective died a relative, and some had a darkness of relatives, and they died regularly. And they buried it in this way: at the corpse, dressed as it should be, they folded its legs, throwing one on top of the other. Especially if it was a woman. The effigy picture is very similar. But the effigy, of course, was not sculpted. The deceased was buried within the boundaries of the family estate, and all the locals had and have such, they erected a monument.
        1. kalibr
          7 May 2021 15: 16
          +5
          Quote: depressant
          when their number has reached a certain limit

          If you only knew how many of them I have in my collection ...
          1. depressant
            depressant 7 May 2021 15: 23
            +5
            And what, mentally it is convenient to count instead of sheep: one, second, third ... effigy. Thousandth! And then - a blessed dream.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 54
              +3
              Maybe it's easier to accept "novoopasit"?
              1. depressant
                depressant 7 May 2021 19: 40
                +3
                Anton)))
                As for me, there is no problem. The main thing is to declare to yourself: "Well, that's enough! Leave your mobile phone, move aside the papers with mathematical calculations and put your aching head on the pillow!" And as soon as this happens, I cut myself out for four hours, or even five. But from life I know that many cannot do this, that fiction recommends that sheep be considered this way. Probably, it has become the custom since the British started to breed sheep. It turns out what you are doing, then count. Historian - effigii, hehe)))
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 7 May 2021 19: 54
                  +1
                  The main thing is to declare to yourself: "Well, that's enough!
                  Scarlet's Method Oh, Hara. Most women use it intuitively, most men have to learn.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 7 May 2021 20: 13
                    +3
                    Not expected ))
                    Scarlet caused hostility, such a survivor at the expense of others ...
                    In fact, women get more tired.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 7 May 2021 20: 25
                      +1
                      Did not expect
                      In vain. Any biologist will tell you that life on this planet is "sharpened" for the female body. It was only at the Cro-Magnon level that there was a failure in the system.
                    2. depressant
                      depressant 7 May 2021 20: 50
                      +3
                      Oh, Anton! A biologist from me is zero, only at the level of sensations and impressions. I did not go into this area. What's wrong with the Cro-Magnons?
                    3. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 7 May 2021 20: 59
                      +2
                      With Cro-Magnons - everything is fine! It was at this stage in the development of biological life that male organisms prevailed over female ones. As a male organism, I cannot but welcome this, as a biological being - I consider it another dead-end branch.
                    4. depressant
                      depressant 7 May 2021 21: 14
                      +2
                      Yes, I had a chance to hear something. Allegedly, in the DNA of modern men, one of the two X chromosomes has a tail disappears, and it turns into Y. Or have I confused something?))
                    5. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 7 May 2021 21: 25
                      +1
                      With chromosomes, as a rule, everything is standard, with the brains of the carriers of chromosomes - it's hard. However, with the brain of the reproducer - too.
                    6. depressant
                      depressant 7 May 2021 21: 44
                      +1
                      Dear Anton, you managed to knock me out. If I have free time, I'll figure out what's wrong with us, Cro-Magnons, the Internet will put my brains in my head. But you hold on! I hope that the behavior of your body independent of you does not cause you too much inconvenience. good drinks wassat )))
  • ee2100
    ee2100 7 May 2021 17: 29
    +2
    Question to the author. In almost all effigies, the legs of the depicted abut against the animal. What's the tradition?
    1. kalibr
      7 May 2021 17: 47
      +1
      Yes, that was the way it was. Dog or lion. Loyalty and courage.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 7 May 2021 18: 11
        +2
        Thank you, succinctly and informative
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 7 May 2021 19: 03
          +3
          My compliments, Alexander!
          The symbolism of the Middle Ages is an extremely insidious study, bordering on, no less shaky, historical psychology. But both subjects, especially the second one, are incredibly interesting to me. I hope someday I will answer your question.
          1. depressant
            depressant 7 May 2021 20: 02
            +1
            Customs and customs, ethics. We don't understand them. We do not understand our contemporaries: "How is it possible? What are they doing? This is wildness! They cannot but understand that this is wildness!" Well, or stupidity for a change. Not understanding our contemporaries, we still do not understand the behavior of people of the Early and Late Middle Ages and even the last century, imputing to them our own ethics, evaluating their actions from its point of view. Therefore, we can only state that the course of history was like this, and find only superficial reasons for the historical course, generalizing them to seemingly global laws, but not finding and not understanding the true deep ones.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 7 May 2021 20: 09
              +1
              Customs and customs, ethics.
              This is what I am trying to understand.
          2. ee2100
            ee2100 8 May 2021 07: 00
            +2
            Good morning!
            Does this mean that Shpakovsky's answer is not entirely correct?
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 8 May 2021 08: 42
              +2
              Good morning, Alexander!
              It is correct in terms of general concepts. In the first effigy, given in the article, we see an animal pierced by a sword. What does this mean?
            2. ee2100
              ee2100 8 May 2021 09: 00
              +1
              Anton!
              How much can I judge this is not yet fully studied issue?
              And the author's answer, like a standard "smear"
            3. ee2100
              ee2100 8 May 2021 09: 01
              +1
              Excuse is so right
            4. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 8 May 2021 09: 26
              +2
              Perhaps studied, it just goes beyond the interests of the author.
              As for the "excuse" ... You can, of course, be considered from this side, but I prefer another position: the message to self-development.
            5. ee2100
              ee2100 8 May 2021 09: 33
              +2
              It is quite possible hi possible. But most likely before there was a certain standard, in the manufacture of effigies, maybe it is stored somewhere.
              Since Shpakovsky is interested in this issue, I thought he would clarify.
              It's like with heraldry, there must be certain rules.
            6. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 8 May 2021 09: 41
              +2
              With heraldry, just everything is not very simple. For when blazoning, it is necessary to take into account the place and time of the creation of the coat of arms.
            7. ee2100
              ee2100 8 May 2021 09: 46
              +2
              But there are general rules. I once read an article on heraldry, where the Rothschild coat of arms was analyzed as an example of the application of the rules. Very exciting.
              And further. Effigia is such a rare subject for study that few people pay attention to it.
            8. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 8 May 2021 18: 59
              +2
              But there are general rules
              This is in modern heraldry. Not so with the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance. For example, not knowing much about the subject, I can distinguish the English coat of arms from the French or Spanish.
              As for effigium ...
              The item is by no means rare and second in importance after miniatures.
            9. ee2100
              ee2100 8 May 2021 19: 07
              +2
              So I was "lucky" with the effigies. I discovered them for myself 10 years ago. And so gravestones and gravestones!
            10. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 8 May 2021 19: 33
              +2
              Perhaps you will be surprised, but I began to closely study history about four years ago, having come to the resource. Before that, there were only nostalgic memories of a childhood hobby ...
          3. ee2100
            ee2100 8 May 2021 19: 12
            +2
            Something has become boring on the site. Much tendentious. The second evening in a row and there is nothing to read. am
            Did the people get used to it, or what?
            Vaschenko promised a cycle, but they print a teaspoon a week.
            The only thing that did not go away was communication with normal people, albeit often with opposite views.
          4. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 May 2021 19: 36
            +2
            there is nothing to read.
            ABOUT! I can offer you a list of references.
          5. ee2100
            ee2100 8 May 2021 19: 50
            +2
            Thanks, don’t. I read enough. I wrote about the site and about live communication and discussion of various topics.
            You cannot embrace the immensity! I read early on history, but prefer the early Middle Ages in connection with Russia.
            I believe that the lack of history education makes me, and possibly you, free from historical dogmas. I will try to explain. We did not have to teach, and then pass the subject according to the textbook and how else your teacher interpreted this or that moment in history.
            Reading the chronicles, you perceive them freely, maybe somewhere it was mistaken and this was, but this is your perception, and not a retransmission of someone's understanding and, in addition, smoothed-out.
            Something like that.
          6. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 May 2021 20: 33
            +2
            We did not have to teach, and then pass the subject according to the textbook and how else your teacher interpreted this or that moment in history.
            Let me explain to myself. Due to my youthful aspirations, if I had been born a couple of years earlier, I would have had to.
            And so, of course, I was "lucky". At the time of my graduation from school, a wild anarchy reigned in the USSR Ministry of Education, 1990, if that ...
          7. ee2100
            ee2100 8 May 2021 20: 41
            +2
            I hope you understand my point. Unfortunately, and this can be perceived as grumbling, few young people are interested in history.
            And many, having seen enough of various videos, generally consider themselves experts.
            It scares.
            Good luck, Anton! Health and all the best!
          8. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 May 2021 20: 47
            +1
            My compliments, Alexander! hi
            I am very interested in communicating with you!
          9. ee2100
            ee2100 8 May 2021 21: 44
            +2
            Thank you Anton!
            Naturally for me, otherwise they would not have communicated. I hope that I will find in you a worthy companion and apponnt, the latter is not unimportant!
          10. ee2100
            ee2100 8 May 2021 21: 45
            +2
            Apponenta, that's right!
          11. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 May 2021 21: 56
            +1
            "Opponent".
            Sorry for my "Hebrew!" laughing
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 7 May 2021 09: 54
    +8
    William Marshal XNUMXst Earl of Pembroke,
    An interesting personality! He started out as a landless knight and ended up as regent of England. He participated in several civil wars, but escaped the Third Crusade. He stood at the origins of the royal dynasty of the Platangenets and at the origins of English liberalism. He was the tutor of the heir to the throne and the lover of his wife. And yes! Acquired the glory of the "first spear" of the kingdom.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 7 May 2021 11: 02
    +3
    A very revealing sword in the effigy of William Marshal 1231nd Earl of Pembroke, who died in XNUMX.
    Strange, Wikipedia gives a different portrayal of this effigy
    1. kalibr
      7 May 2021 12: 38
      +2
      I don't know anything, Anton. Submitted by the British Society of Medievalists. I copied without hesitation and, it is clear that I did not check all the signatures. Actually, I did not check any ...
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 7 May 2021 13: 14
      +4
      In Wikipedia, a drawing from Charles J. Addison's The History of the Knights Templar, Temple and Temple Church, 1843. The drawing does not have photographic accuracy.
      In reality (at least ten years ago) it looks like this.

      Left - William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke, right his son, William Marshal, 2nd Earl of Pembroke.
      So everything is correct in the article.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 7 May 2021 14: 36
        +3
        The drawing does not have photographic accuracy.
        Undoubtedly, but a broken sword can hardly be called a minor discrepancy.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 7 May 2021 14: 57
          +2
          Drawing from the book of 1843. Perhaps even older. Why the sword is broken off - you have to look. Not the fact that it will be possible to get at least something.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 May 2021 18: 10
            +3
            I agree. It is a pity, you cannot carefully examine the coat of arms on the shield of the lithographic image, maybe Addison was misled and this is not at all the effigy of the second Pembroke. Remember the story of the effigy de Montfort in Carcassonne?
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 7 May 2021 18: 31
              +1
              Addison is an expert on the Templars, and when he wrote the book, he studied this church from top to bottom. That is, he saw the original several times, so even if it was not he who drew, Addison would not have put the dubious drawing in his book. Obviously there is some reason that the sword in the picture is broken.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 7 May 2021 19: 10
                +2
                And, when and by whom was it restored?
                Historical detective in the spirit of Chesterton.
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 7 May 2021 21: 06
                  +2
                  Historical detective in the spirit of Chesterton.

                  Let's try to apply Father Brown's methods.

                  This drawing is first found in a book by the famous 1786th century London antiquary, Richard Gough, in his fundamental five-volume work Sepulchral Monuments in Great Britain, published 1796-XNUMX. The sword in the picture is broken.
                  The second drawing of this effigy is found in the book of Charles Alfred Stotard, an English antiquarian and draftsman, who was especially interested in effigies. The Monumental Effigies of Great Britain began publication in 1811, but was completed after Stotard's death, in 1832.

                  Here the sword is also broken off, the blade of the sword is absent altogether.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 7 May 2021 21: 18
                    +2
                    Hmm ... There is a little thing, but an interesting one. The difference is in the image of the knee pads. I'm afraid a third version of the effigy appears ...
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 7 May 2021 21: 33
                      +2
                      Will appear, read the continuation.
                  2. Undecim
                    Undecim 7 May 2021 21: 32
                    +2
                    Moreover, Stotard draws effigy from different angles.

                    But in the journal of the Yorkshire Archaeological and Historical Society, volume 28 for 1926, the effigy is already with a sword.

                    It turns out that in 1840 the English sculptor and archaeologist Edward Richardson was commissioned to restore the effigies, which were in a terrible state.
                    The result of his work was evaluated in different ways, but what we see today is the result of his work.
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 7 May 2021 21: 36
                      +2
                      And this is a drawing of effigia after restoration by Richardson himself.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 7 May 2021 11: 12
    +2
    "John de Loudham" remembered Ivanhoe: Norman Brian de Baugelberg, probably this John de Loudham is also Norman?
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 11: 52
    +2
    Enough has been said about swords - for some reason the people have a weakness for this particular weapon. Probably, its rarity in the early Middle Ages and, accordingly, its status matters. Although, I do not think that swords were so actively used in battles and were downright superweapons.
    In addition to the fact that they had to learn to own, because in inexperienced hands a simple metal rod of the same length and weight would be more effective, it still cost, often fabulous money, and was only suitable against unhurried peasants ...
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, maybe it's time to abandon the Petersen and Oakshots and move from the sinister aesthetics of long-bladed weapons to truly bloody monsters - axes, war hammers?
    It seems to me that if you compare the number of souls expelled from the mortal bodies of our ancestors by these overgrown knives with those that were sent to the forefathers after contact with much cheaper axes or clubs, then the comparison will not be in favor of Oakeshot's pets. smile
    1. kalibr
      7 May 2021 12: 12
      +4
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, maybe it's time to abandon the Petersen and Oakshots and move from the sinister aesthetics of long-bladed weapons to truly bloody monsters - axes, war hammers?

      There should be at least 2-3 more articles. There is no getting away from this! But if people don't like the topic. That ... "a woman with a cart is easier for a mare"
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 7 May 2021 12: 27
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        if people don't like the topic

        This is exclusively their problem, I think. smile
        Personally, I like it and I have no problems. smile
        Regarding axes, clubs and other deadly weapons - this is a possible idea for implementation in the future, nothing more ... smile hi
        1. kalibr
          7 May 2021 12: 35
          +3
          The topic is interesting indeed. But you have to work hard on it. We'll see...
          1. depressant
            depressant 7 May 2021 15: 47
            +2
            Regarding axes, clubs and other deadly weapons - this is a possible idea for implementation in the future, nothing more ...

            Yes, in the future! How many ideas will arise in the heads of historians through the millennia.

            BALLAD ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DAMAGE (from the absurd).

            Gavrila was divorced from his wife,
            The wife was unfaithful,
            Gavrila preferred the platoon commander,
            By clipping the former wing.

            Gavrila became not very drunk
            And he didn't pay alimony.
            Soul of his open wound
            Shone menacingly between the stars.

            Saving up Gabril for Armata
            And he saved up for Armata
            And a shot at the checkpoint of the construction battalion
            He accidentally shot down a Boeing.

            The construction battalion officers are lying,
            Both the general and the private,
            Amid the nuclear epicenter
            Killed by the Third World ...

            All the years went by, but a pale ghost
            Gavrila soared at night.
            "God knows! I was not low,
            Armata trunk is high! "- shouted.

            Screamed and wept, innocent,
            Well, the historian is right there!
            And carved in accurate cuneiform
            He is in stone his cherished work.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 7 May 2021 16: 46
              +2
              Gavrila was a well-aimed tanker
              He shot down from a 777 tank
              1. depressant
                depressant 7 May 2021 17: 27
                +3
                Albert, you knocked out the rhythm in the answer,
                Gavrila didn't count the numbers!
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar 7 May 2021 17: 41
                  +1
                  But he was a jealous husband
                  I touched the tower with my horns
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 7 May 2021 17: 54
                    +3
                    Gavrila was beautiful in soul,
                    Gavrila was thin at heart!
                    But how many fables about Gavrila
                    Ears were sealed with noodles!
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 7 May 2021 18: 12
                      +2
                      And here is what a historian from the distant future will carve about Gavrila in stone:

                      Gavrila was a decent husband,
                      A sword on my side, a dagger in my hand,
                      The people needed Gavrila,
                      He gave birth to his own kind.

                      But he was wounded. Then they killed
                      Gavril is enemies from evil,
                      And the glass freezes on the grave,
                      And the spruce has not bloomed yet.
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 7 May 2021 16: 11
      +2
      It seems to me that if we compare the number of souls expelled from the mortal bodies of our ancestors by these overgrown knives with those that were sent to the forefathers after contact with much cheaper axes or clubs, then the comparison will not be in favor of the Oakeshot pets.


      Many times more swords were found than axes. This is if you do not take the images where swords also dominate axes and war hammers.
      The heyday of war hammers generally happened late, in the 15th century.
      Of the finds, the same Russian hatchets for 300-400 g at Kirpichnikov's are not impressive at all and look like a kindergarten.

      You need to understand that the sword was very valuable, but due to careful storage and anxious attitude, they were always at every single moment lot

      In Scandinavia, the sword is an obligatory attribute of a free man on the tinge. All judicial duels in the sagas of Scandinavia with swords. I don't remember a single one on the axes. And this is the early Middle Ages.

      for in inexperienced hands a simple metal rod of the same length and weight would be more effective, it still cost, often fabulous money, and was only suitable against unhurried peasants ...

      That's where it all comes from ???

      The killing champion was probably the polearm.
      1. depressant
        depressant 7 May 2021 18: 54
        +2
        Very unexpected information about the free.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 8 May 2021 11: 52
        +1
        Quote: Engineer
        Many times more swords were found than axes.

        I doubt it. In Russia, as if, a hundred swords against one and a half thousand axes.
        Quote: Engineer
        images where swords also dominate axes and war hammers

        The explanation is simple - mainly knights were depicted, and the sword is an integral attribute of the latter. A warrior armed with NOT a sword is not a knight. Hence the dominance in images. Richard III, for example, died with an ax in his hands.
        Quote: Engineer
        Kirpichnikov's Russian hatchets for 300-400 g are not impressive

        From what? I suppose quite an effective weapon even against shields.
        Quote: Engineer
        the sword was very valuable, but due to the careful storage and anxious attitude, there were always many

        I think not. Only leaders and noble warriors were armed with swords. Of course, over time there were more of them, but not immediately, it took several centuries to equip even a small squad with a long-bladed weapon.
        About Scandinavia.
        They had enough iron, theoretically, they could make themselves swords. But to each a free peasant was obliged to come to the ting with a sword - I have not heard that. Probably they are referring to landowners, but that is another matter.
        Judicial duels are, in the first place, a sacred act of manifestation of the will of the gods, whom both participants called for to resolve the dispute, therefore the sword was chosen as a weapon, as a weapon with "the greatest sacredness". smile
        European tournament fights were often held with polearms or axes.
        A sword is a specific, capricious weapon that requires skillful handling, without which it will quickly lose its properties and performance - it will bend, break, dull. In the production of piercing blows, the sword is inferior to the spear, chopping - to the ax. Against a protected enemy, it rapidly loses its effectiveness. The advantages of the sword lie, first of all, in its versatility (you can both chop and stab) and speed (frequent repetition of attacks and a quick change in their direction), but these advantages can be fully realized only against an unhurried or weakly defended enemy.
        Let's remember that the war in the Middle Ages consisted mainly of predatory raids, and not battles, which were considered an outstanding event, and it will become quite clear why the knight needed a sword.
        Quote: Engineer
        That's where it all comes from ???

        From books, mostly. I read it somewhere, it was deposited in my head, it fell like a puzzle in the big picture. In order to remember exactly where, you will have to spend a lot of time. There is some kind of "Sword through the centuries", for example, plus "Encyclopedia of cold steel", plus "Self-instruction manual for fencing" and several articles on the network, the authors of which, it seemed to me, express sensible thoughts.
        Quote: Engineer
        The killing champion was probably the polearm.

        But not long-bladed for sure. I would put him in fourth place after clubs, axes and spears (in any order).
        In our time, the champion in killing is, by the way, an ordinary kitchen knife.
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 7 May 2021 17: 20
    +4
    I see 1985 was a fruitful year for the film adaptation of "Black Hand" ...
    1. depressant
      depressant 7 May 2021 18: 52
      +2
      Colleague, the name itself is popular.
      So this year the film "Black Hand" with DiCaprio was released. Everyone has the same name, and the content may be the most unexpected.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 7 May 2021 18: 58
        +4
        Damn, "Black Arrow" of course :)))
        just in the same year our film was released - the adaptation of Stevenson. Shavlak, Belyaeva, Kulagin, Masiulis, Filipenko ...
        1. depressant
          depressant 7 May 2021 20: 05
          +3
          I remember something)))
          It will be necessary to reconsider.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 7 May 2021 17: 26
    +2
    Thank you very much for your time with us. hi As always very interesting.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 7 May 2021 18: 43
    +2
    "carefully keep them on the walls of knightly castles and cathedrals" colleagues, and you did not believe me the other day that someone could have kept an old sword in the castle.
    I believe that 97% of swords are found in earth and water, about 1% can remain in ancient castles and about 2% in ancient cathedrals. Suppose some rich trophies could donate to his heavenly patron or some knight decided to become a monk and give his sword to a monastery
    Could this be? In those days there were all sorts of fantasies
    1. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 7 May 2021 19: 01
      +5
      Quote: Astra wild2
      and give your sword to the monastery
      Could this be?

      Quite. As an example. Dovmont's sword was kept in the Trinity Cathedral of Pskov on the prince's tomb.