"Positioning by the stars": The US is looking for an alternative to the GPS system for strategic bombers when it is blocked by Russia and China

Experts in the US are pondering how to use their strategic weapons systems, including bombers, in the event that Russia and China shut down the global positioning system (GPS). In particular, the issue is being considered in which strategic missile carriers of the US Air Force "could strike at opponents if necessary." At the same time, it is pointed out that with the development of the GPS system, dependence on it has become almost total for all American branches and arms of the military, including the strategic Aviation.

For example, PM (Popular Mechanics) discusses alternatives to the GPS system for navigation in the event that the system is blocked.

The magazine indicates that the B-21 Raider bombers will soon receive the latest astronomical (space) navigation system, which will allow for positioning, orientation and guidance weapon using satellites, special Starlink spacecraft and stars.

The main problem of the newest American global positioning system for military purposes is that its error in determining coordinates is significantly higher than that of GPS. A significant error is unacceptable, as noted by American experts, because we are talking about the delivery of nuclear weapons to the target.

It should be recalled that earlier the same American magazine called the B-21 Raider strategic bombers undergoing modernization "the destroyers of the Russian S-400 Triumph air defense systems."

In the comments of Western readers about the search for an alternative to GPS, it is noted that if any country finds opportunities to turn off this positioning system, then the same country may well find ways to counteract other systems, including the data transmission system from the aforementioned Starlink devices.

Comments

[The leader of the Redskins]

You can also, the old-fashioned way, ask the locals))) Landing, asked, put a mark on the map and take off!
Sarcasm, if that. And so - yes. We are too accustomed to the benefits of civilization.

[Victor_B]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

Landing, asked

Aha
"Show me where with your hand!"

[sanja.grw]

You can still, in the old fashioned way

[seregatara1969]

This is our secret. There are no such camouflaged maps in other countries.

[Normal ok]

Quote: Leader of the Redskins

You can also, the old-fashioned way, ask the locals))) Landing, asked, put a mark on the map and take off!
Sarcasm, if that. And so - yes. We are too accustomed to the benefits of civilization.

Eh, I immediately remember the azimuth attachment for the compass and the paper number tables. It was once in my youth.

[Normal ok]

But seriously, there seemed to be artillery officers of my spill, -remember how to "stick" to the polar star and the tables?

[NDR-791]

At the end of 1947, the problem of controlling an abstract cruise missile emerges. Alternative versions of the cruise missile control system were reviewed along the entire trajectory of its flight. The well-known version of the German project A9 / A10 was then discarded due to the vulnerability of radio control over the enemy's territory, as well as due to the inability to achieve the required accuracy when using even the latest German gyroscopic system at that time. It was proposed to create a new system - an astronavigation system. In NII-88 in department "U" (head B.E. Chertok) a laboratory is being created, which has begun to engage in astronavigation. I.M. Lisovich was appointed head of work on the astronavigation system, and on his recommendation, GI Vasiliev-Lyulin was instructed to solve gyroscopic problems. In 1949, IM Lisovich, BE Chertok and GI Vasiliev-Lyulin were issued an inventor's certificate for the automatic astronavigation system. All the basic principles of automatic astronavigation were developed and tested on mock-ups during 1948-1949.
Something like this ... Catch up, gentlemen, catch up.

[Victor_B]

Quote: NDR-791

Something like this ... Catch up, gentlemen, catch up.

In those years, this was outstanding accuracy ...
But the years go by and now it is already plus or minus bast shoes ...
For KR it has long been TERCOM Americans They came up with something, I don't know what we call it.
But for ballistics ... it doesn't stand still either.
And I haven't been given specific numbers for a long time.

[NDR-791]

Quote: Victor_B

And I haven't been given specific numbers for a long time.

In general, I'm talking about priorities. It is clear that everything is not the same as in the 50s. And with specific numbers, yeah ... they haven't reported for a long time, you need to ask

[Victor_B]

Quote: NDR-791

have not reported for a long time, it is necessary to request

Something darkens Shoigu!
Not otherwise, new cartoons are removed.

[Cube123]

Quote: Victor_B

For the Kyrgyz Republic for a long time already TERKOM the Americans came up with what we call it, I don’t know.

It was from TERKOM that an anecdote arose:
"While the Americans are drawing maps, we are manually changing the terrain."

But seriously, this method has a huge disadvantage: dependence on weather conditions. If cloudy days are rare in the climatic zone of the United States, sunny days are such a rarity in Russia.

[spech]

in PM (Popular Mechanics)

why "murzilka" to read?
PS and astrocorrection on ICBMs has been used for a long time.

[Ka-52]

PS and astrocorrection on ICBMs has been used for a long time.

at ICBMs, the KVO is compensated by the power of the explosion of the warhead. For conventional ammunition, such a deviation is not acceptable.

[akarfoxhound]

In Soviet ICBMs with antediluvian astrocorrection of 10 blanks, 8 were inserted at the test site with a CEP of +/- 6 m, and only then
and the power of the nuclear battalion. Is the power of Soviet engineers impressive?

[Ka-52]

R-36, much more soviet ICBM - KVO 1300m. Russian RT-2PM2 Topol-M - KVO 200m. Where did you draw 6m from, from murziloks?

[akarfoxhound]

The representatives of the Strategic Missile Forces told me this "murzilka" when, according to Gorbatov's reduction, the missiles were not only sawed, but also fired at the ranges, and they themselves slightly primed themselves on the result when a blank 6 m from the "post" was stuck. And you, excuse me, where did you get admission to the current documents of the Strategic Missile Forces? Or was your media murzilka labeled "the most non-muzzy"?

[Ka-52]

Representatives of the Strategic Missile Forces told me this "murzilka"

if your "representatives" are not from Dubovik's entourage, then you can continue here scratching your ears about what the grandmothers told you there at the entrance. But in reality, based on the results of LCI, the accuracy of shooting is given in the absence of a nuclear strike by the enemy on the starting position and without it. For the UR100, for example, this was 0,84-1,05, respectively. Wh with unit 15F162

Or was your media murzilka labeled "the most non-muzzy"?

laughed.

[Torins]

Everything was invented for a long time, compass-card-protractor. They are strange

[Morris812]

How will you calculate the speed? By wheel speed?)))

[Torins]

The plane has a special device;)

[Piramidon]

Quote: Morris812

How will you calculate the speed? By wheel speed?)))

KUS and DISS were invented long ago.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Torins

Everything was invented for a long time, compass-card-protractor. They are strange

Star-solar orientators were installed on our Tu-60s back in the 95s.

[realist]

we must fumble on the steamers, the sextants were supposed to be preserved in the closets ...

[carstorm 11]

Yes, you will buy a Belomor car and give it to the pilots. Enough for everyone))))

[Piramidon]

Quote: carstorm 11

Yes, you will buy a Belomor car and give it to the pilots. Enough for everyone))))

Try to find it on sale, especially the one from the factory. Uritsky.

[carstorm 11]

The design is one) as for finding, I do not smoke and have no idea))) I saw in the internet in reviews but there it is expensive

[sined]

Interestingly, it will be possible to create an analogue of GPS only in an autonomous form inside the aircraft itself, in the form of some kind of installation with sensors that takes into account the speed and direction and other parameters of the aircraft. Well, or create slaves who will fly below and determine the location optically and transmit data directly to the bomber. How strange it is to rely only on satellites.

[Egoza]

Quote: Sined

Interestingly, it will be possible to create an analogue of GPS only in an autonomous form inside the aircraft itself,

"Science always turns out to be wrong. It is not able to solve a single issue without raising a dozen new" B. Shaw

[Avior]

These systems have been created and exist long ago.
There are autonomous inertial navigation systems and tactical ones.
And determining the position with the help of a radio compass using navigation radio beacons on the ground is probably one of the very first radio navigation systems created in the first half of the 20th century.

[Andy_nsk]

Inertial navigation at large distances gives a huge error and is not suitable for strategic aviation. You can't fly far by radio beacons either - you will have to set up beacons in advance on enemy territory. I'm not even talking about the fact that in the case of the use of nuclear weapons (and what will the strategists carry? Not land mines!) And the ionization of the atmosphere, it is better not to rely on radio signals at all. It is also impossible to count on navigation through objects on the ground (at least when observing in the optical range) - otherwise, in the presence of cloudiness, all aviation should sit at airfields. It is, of course, possible to search for transparency windows for electromagnetic waves - but since this problem has not yet been solved - it seems to me that there is no good solution (or it is so secret - that we will not know about it). Again, how will ionization of the atmosphere affect? - perhaps you will have to switch to wire telephony (God forbid!) There is also a variant of binding to the terrain by the relief (as in the Kyrgyz Republic), also not a fountain - there is nothing to be attached to over the sea or over our tundra, taiga and swamps. So the stars remain. They were, are and will be, whatever we have done on earth!

[Piramidon]

Quote: Sined

Interestingly, it will be possible to create an analogue of GPS only in an autonomous form inside the aircraft itself, in the form of some kind of installation with sensors that takes into account the speed and direction and other parameters of the aircraft

From time immemorial there has been a navigation system of the "Way" type.

[rotmistr60]

"Positioning by stars"

And you can also use the main landmarks: railway and motor roads, river beds, large settlements ...

[Piramidon]

Quote: rotmistr60

"Positioning by stars"

And you can also use the main landmarks: railway and motor roads, river beds, large settlements ...

Especially over the ocean will help.

[akarfoxhound]

All our strategists and large "transports" have working astrocompasses, navigators of the Chelyabinsk VVAUSh, Voroshilovgrad and Stavropol VVAULSh practiced flights with the same DAK-DB on the An-26Sh and Tu-134Sh, and passing tests in astronavigation is mandatory. The sight of the "well-fed booklet" of the annual AAE (aviation astronomical yearbook) with the solutions to its problems still makes the navigator family shudder.
The fact that during the war there would be no GPS only for a round donkey was not clear!

[Misha_an26]

And another entry on the drives. That's what I understand.

[akarfoxhound]

Yes, the call is understandable, but when these our vahlaks razderibanil ODS on the airways of all Russia mothers, handing them over to the "citizens", and they cut them as unnecessary, where there is an ambush in our Siberian spaces! We only have drives intact in the cost center (Moscow is untouchable! )

[Eug]

Astro-orientators for BR are not a new thing, but most likely, for flights at low altitudes, an additional "repeater" flying higher is needed.

[Klingon]

There is an inertial NAS and has existed for a long time. There is also a geomagnetic

[rocket757]

"Positioning by the stars": The US is looking for an alternative to the GPS system for strategic bombers when it is blocked by Russia and China

... Give the navigators a chronometer, sextant and astrolabe! To teach them how to work with them .... oh yes, let them also remember mathematics .... and let them pray to their gods that the Chinese would not learn to extinguish the stars!

[AlexeyEg]

It is not clear why all this should be given out .. if you can insert everything into the device .. cell phone scales.

[rocket757]

It is possible, not a question, but it is not interesting and those devices do not run out of battery ... although, the chronometer may break, the compass may "demagnetize" and the astrolabe may be thrown overboard out of anger!
Oh yes, the navigator's brains can go off one side, from such an overload, to work with prehistoric devices, anyone can bring to the brink!

[Bez 310]

Very interesting...
Aircraft Tu-22m3, Tu-95, Tu-142, Tu-160 never had a standard "GPS", and somehow all tasks were performed with the required accuracy. On the Tu-142 Pacific Fleet, I got the first primitive navigator of the "Magellan" type only at the very beginning of the 2000s. In general, our current navigators need to be constantly trained in flights without GPS, and the methods have been worked out for a long time.

[Ruslan Sulima]

Okay, so be it, I'll give you an idea for astronavigation)

[Kalmar]

the same country may well find ways to counter other systems

Countermeasures to astronomical equipment, I believe, will be in the spirit of Arthur Clarke:

“Look,” Chuck whispered, and George also turned his gaze to the heavens. (Everything happens one last time.)
High above them, quietly, without noise, one after another the stars were extinguished.

[Nikolaevich I]

Enough, men "suffer" for the American astronavigation! You first cough up ours!
1.In Russia, the ANS-160 astronavigation system has been developed for Tu-2009 long-range bombers, which makes it possible to determine the coordinates of the aircraft with high accuracy based on the data on the position of the stars. This is stated in the message of the concern "Radioelectronic Technologies" (KRET), received by the editorial office of Lenta.ru.
“This method is the most reliable in combat conditions, when satellite navigation systems can be disabled by the enemy. ANS-2009 can be installed on an aircraft together with strapdown inertial navigation systems that do not require external landmarks or signals coming from outside, ”said Vladimir Mikheev, deputy general director of KRET.
2. Roskosmos will create a space instrumentation center, within the framework of which an astronavigation system will be developed, capable of replacing the GPS and GLONASS navigation systems in the future ....

Thanks to advances in science and technology, specialists plan to implement a bold project of the Spektr-RG space observatory, in which innovative telescopes - the European eROSITA, as well as the domestic ART-XC will be installed. This is a very serious step towards the systematic development of space and astronomical technologies ... In particular, the observatory will make it possible to create an astronavigation system, which in the future may become more efficient than the already familiar satellite navigation systems - American GPS and Russian GLONASS. Astronavigation has a high accuracy of coordinates and is devoid of many of the problems that are observed in the work of satellite navigation. The Russian development will use X-ray pulsars. In addition, experts note that in the future such technology will be used in the work of spacecraft in order to better navigate in deep space. Representatives of the state corporation reported that the launch of the observatory is planned to be carried out within a year ...
Source: https://politexpert.net/101087-alternativa-glonass-i-gps-v-rossii-sozdayut-sverkhtochnuyu-sistemu-navigacii

[International Observer]

"Positioning by the stars": The US is looking for an alternative to the GPS system for strategic bombers when it is blocked by Russia and China

Serves them right, they need to do even worse! It is necessary to jam and blind them, wherever they meet. The best option is if nothing will work on their bombers at all except odor sensors, which they will also soon implement, if everything goes right for us ...

[akropin]

As an amateur, I do not see any big problems in binding coordinates, dumping ammunition, to the terrain and key objects. Or has the military topography already been canceled? )

[Bez 310]

Quote: akropin

Or has the military topography already been canceled? )

It’s good for you, amateurs, you don’t see big problems ... But I, as a specialist in air navigation over non-orientated terrain, I see problems. And the main one of these problems is the inability and unwillingness of today's navigators to fly without GPS.

[akropin]

Unwillingness is understandable, laziness drives progress. But inability is a misfortune, possibly due to the lack of mentors and a stable training process. Again, I am an amateur, but I know for sure - if there is a direction in magnetic azimuth and a speed value, then it is possible to calculate your location.

[rotfuks]

The best alternative to GPS is a regular compass. Imagine strategic bombers flying, and pilots clutching Chinese compasses in their sweaty hands. Many have already forgotten that it was the Americans who started the games with turning off GPS. They once sold Saddam Hussein heavy artillery with GPS guidance and at the right moment turned off this GPS. By the way, it was after this incident that Russia began thinking about GLONASS.

[rotfuks]

In general, the popularity of GPS is determined by the availability of chips for receiving GPS. When I first installed navigation on a car, the GPS module was the size of a matchbox. Now GPS chips are installed in every mobile phone and GPS chips are now the size of a match head. That is, GPS is imposed on the public on a voluntary-compulsory basis. For example. Russian government agencies use GLONASS. China uses its own Beidou. No one will fall for chaff like Saddam Hussein did with GPS artillery.

[APASUS]

Experts in the US are pondering how to use their strategic weapons systems, including bombers, in the event that Russia and China shut down the global positioning system (GPS).

And what about the construction of a new closed GPS channel for military systems? The Americans no longer know what to ask for money for, they are bursting with ideas........

[AshPoseidon]

Star Positioning: The US is looking for an alternative to GPS ....

Let's go by the stars! Two fingers to the left of Algol.

[UPS]

And what if Russia and China turn off the stars?

[Prisoner]

There is a suggestion.