Military Review

"Positioning by the stars": The US is looking for an alternative to the GPS system for strategic bombers when it is blocked by Russia and China

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Experts in the US are pondering how to use their strategic weapons systems, including bombers, in the event that Russia and China shut down the global positioning system (GPS). In particular, the issue is being considered in which strategic missile carriers of the US Air Force "could strike at opponents if necessary." At the same time, it is pointed out that with the development of the GPS system, dependence on it has become almost total for all American branches and arms of the military, including the strategic Aviation.


For example, PM (Popular Mechanics) discusses alternatives to the GPS system for navigation in the event that the system is blocked.

The magazine indicates that the B-21 Raider bombers will soon receive the latest astronomical (space) navigation system, which will allow for positioning, orientation and guidance weapon using satellites, special Starlink spacecraft and stars.

The main problem of the newest American global positioning system for military purposes is that its error in determining coordinates is significantly higher than that of GPS. A significant error is unacceptable, as noted by American experts, because we are talking about the delivery of nuclear weapons to the target.

It should be recalled that earlier the same American magazine called the B-21 Raider strategic bombers undergoing modernization "the destroyers of the Russian S-400 Triumph air defense systems."

In the comments of Western readers about the search for an alternative to GPS, it is noted that if any country finds opportunities to turn off this positioning system, then the same country may well find ways to counteract other systems, including the data transmission system from the aforementioned Starlink devices.
55 comments
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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins April 27 2021 06: 37
    +8
    You can also, in the old fashioned way, ask the locals))) Landing, asked, put a mark on the map and take off! laughing
    Sarcasm, if that. And so - yes. We are too accustomed to the benefits of civilization.
    1. Victor_B
      Victor_B April 27 2021 06: 49
      +3
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Landing, asked
      Aha
      "Show me where with your hand!"
    2. sanja.grw
      sanja.grw April 27 2021 07: 47
      +7
      You can still, in the old fashioned way

      hi
      1. seregatara1969
        seregatara1969 April 27 2021 08: 41
        +2
        This is our secret. There are no such camouflaged maps in other countries.
    3. Normal ok
      Normal ok April 27 2021 13: 31
      0
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      You can also, in the old fashioned way, ask the locals))) Landing, asked, put a mark on the map and take off! laughing
      Sarcasm, if that. And so - yes. We are too accustomed to the benefits of civilization.

      Eh, I immediately remember the azimuth attachment for the compass and the paper number tables. It was once in my youth.
      1. Normal ok
        Normal ok April 27 2021 23: 32
        0
        But seriously, there seemed to be artillery officers of my spill, -remember how to "stick" to the polar star and the tables?
  2. NDR-791
    NDR-791 April 27 2021 06: 38
    +22
    At the end of 1947, the problem of controlling an abstract cruise missile emerges. Alternative versions of the cruise missile control system were reviewed along the entire trajectory of its flight. The well-known version of the German project A9 / A10 was then discarded due to the vulnerability of radio control over the enemy's territory, as well as due to the inability to achieve the required accuracy when using even the latest German gyroscopic system at that time. It was proposed to create a new system - an astronavigation system. In NII-88 in department "U" (head B.E. Chertok) a laboratory is being created, which has begun to engage in astronavigation. I.M. Lisovich was appointed head of work on the astronavigation system, and on his recommendation, GI Vasiliev-Lyulin was instructed to solve gyroscopic problems. In 1949, IM Lisovich, BE Chertok and GI Vasiliev-Lyulin were issued an inventor's certificate for the automatic astronavigation system. All the basic principles of automatic astronavigation were developed and tested on mock-ups during 1948-1949.
    Something like this ... Catch up, gentlemen, catch up. wassat
    1. Victor_B
      Victor_B April 27 2021 06: 54
      +1
      Quote: NDR-791
      Something like this ... Catch up, gentlemen, catch up.

      In those years, this was outstanding accuracy ...
      But the years go by and now it is already plus or minus bast shoes ...
      For the Kyrgyz Republic for a long time already TERKOM the Americans came up with what we call it, I don’t know.
      But for ballistics ... it doesn't stand still either.
      And I haven't been given specific numbers for a long time.
      1. NDR-791
        NDR-791 April 27 2021 06: 57
        +3
        Quote: Victor_B
        And I haven't been given specific numbers for a long time.

        good good good
        In general, I'm talking about priorities. It is clear that everything is not the same as in the 50s. And with specific numbers, yeah ... they haven't reported for a long time, you need to ask wassat
        1. Victor_B
          Victor_B April 27 2021 07: 02
          +1
          Quote: NDR-791
          have not reported for a long time, it is necessary to request

          Something darkens Shoigu!
          Not otherwise, new cartoons are removed.
      2. Cube123
        Cube123 April 27 2021 08: 34
        +2
        Quote: Victor_B
        For the Kyrgyz Republic for a long time already TERKOM the Americans came up with what we call it, I don’t know.

        It was from TERKOM that an anecdote arose:
        "While the Americans are drawing maps, we are manually changing the terrain." laughing

        But seriously, this method has a huge disadvantage: dependence on weather conditions. If cloudy days are rare in the climatic zone of the United States, sunny days are such a rarity in Russia. wink
  3. spech
    spech April 27 2021 06: 45
    +3
    in PM (Popular Mechanics)

    why "murzilka" to read?
    PS and astrocorrection on ICBMs has been used for a long time.
    1. Ka-52
      Ka-52 April 27 2021 06: 53
      +3
      PS and astrocorrection on ICBMs has been used for a long time.

      at ICBMs, the KVO is compensated by the power of the explosion of the warhead. For conventional ammunition, such a deviation is not acceptable.
      1. akarfoxhound
        akarfoxhound April 27 2021 07: 01
        -2
        Soviet ICBMs with "antediluvian" astrocorrection of 10 blanks 8 at the test site were stuck with KVO +/- 6m, and only then
        and the power of the yadrenbaton. Is the power of Soviet engineers impressive?
        1. Ka-52
          Ka-52 April 27 2021 07: 22
          +5
          R-36, much more soviet ICBM - KVO 1300m. Russian RT-2PM2 Topol-M - KVO 200m. Where did you draw 6m from, from murziloks?
          1. akarfoxhound
            akarfoxhound April 27 2021 10: 01
            -2
            The representatives of the Strategic Missile Forces told me this "murzilka" when, according to Gorbatov's reduction, the missiles were not only sawed, but also fired at the ranges, and they themselves slightly primed themselves on the result when a blank 6 m from the "post" was stuck. And you, excuse me, where did you get admission to the current documents of the Strategic Missile Forces? Or was your media murzilka labeled "the most non-muzzy"? wink
            1. Ka-52
              Ka-52 April 28 2021 05: 16
              0
              Representatives of the Strategic Missile Forces told me this "murzilka"

              if your "representatives" are not from Dubovik's entourage, then you can continue here scratching your ears about what the grandmothers told you there at the entrance. But in reality, based on the results of LCI, the accuracy of shooting is given in the absence of a nuclear strike by the enemy on the starting position and without it. For the UR100, for example, this was 0,84-1,05, respectively. Wh with unit 15F162
              Or was your media murzilka labeled "the most non-muzzy"?

              laughed.
  4. Torins
    Torins April 27 2021 06: 45
    +4
    Everything was invented for a long time, compass-card-protractor. They are strange fool
    1. Morris812
      Morris812 April 27 2021 07: 06
      +1
      How will you calculate the speed? By wheel speed?)))
      1. Torins
        Torins April 27 2021 07: 52
        +3
        The plane has a special device;)
      2. Piramidon
        Piramidon April 27 2021 10: 55
        +4
        Quote: Morris812
        How will you calculate the speed? By wheel speed?)))

        KUS and DISS were invented long ago.
    2. Piramidon
      Piramidon April 27 2021 10: 23
      +5
      Quote: Torins
      Everything was invented for a long time, compass-card-protractor. They are strange fool

      Star-solar orientators were installed on our Tu-60s back in the 95s.
    3. realist
      realist April 27 2021 12: 00
      +1
      we must fumble on the steamers, the sextants were supposed to be preserved in the closets ...
  5. carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 April 27 2021 06: 46
    +1
    Yes, you will buy a Belomor car and give it to the pilots. Enough for everyone))))
    1. Piramidon
      Piramidon April 27 2021 10: 26
      +1
      Quote: carstorm 11
      Yes, you will buy a Belomor car and give it to the pilots. Enough for everyone))))

      Try to find it on sale, especially the one from the factory. Uritsky.
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 April 27 2021 11: 16
        0
        The design is one) as for finding, I do not smoke and have no idea))) I saw in the internet in reviews but there it is expensive
  6. Sined
    Sined April 27 2021 06: 46
    +2
    Interestingly, it will be possible to create an analogue of GPS only in an autonomous form inside the aircraft itself, in the form of some kind of installation with sensors that takes into account the speed and direction and other parameters of the aircraft. Well, or create slaves who will fly below and determine the location optically and transmit data directly to the bomber. How strange it is to rely only on satellites.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza April 27 2021 06: 53
      +4
      Quote: Sined
      Interestingly, it will be possible to create an analogue of GPS only in an autonomous form inside the aircraft itself,

      "Science always turns out to be wrong. It is not able to solve a single issue without raising a dozen new" B. Shaw
    2. Avior
      Avior April 27 2021 06: 57
      +6
      These systems have been created and exist long ago.
      There are autonomous inertial navigation systems and tactical ones.
      And determining the position with the help of a radio compass using navigation radio beacons on the ground is probably one of the very first radio navigation systems created in the first half of the 20th century.
      1. Andy_nsk
        Andy_nsk April 27 2021 07: 40
        +4
        Inertial navigation at large distances gives a huge error and is not suitable for strategic aviation. You can't fly far by radio beacons either - you will have to set up beacons in advance on enemy territory. I'm not even talking about the fact that in the case of the use of nuclear weapons (and what will the strategists carry? Not land mines!) And the ionization of the atmosphere, it is better not to rely on radio signals at all. It is also impossible to count on navigation through objects on the ground (at least when observing in the optical range) - otherwise, in the presence of cloudiness, all aviation should sit at airfields. It is, of course, possible to search for transparency windows for electromagnetic waves - but since this problem has not yet been solved - it seems to me that there is no good solution (or it is so secret - that we will not know about it). Again, how will ionization of the atmosphere affect? - perhaps you will have to switch to wire telephony (God forbid!) There is also a variant of binding to the terrain by the relief (as in the Kyrgyz Republic), also not a fountain - there is nothing to be attached to over the sea or over our tundra, taiga and swamps. So the stars remain. They were, are and will be, whatever we have done on earth!
    3. Piramidon
      Piramidon April 27 2021 11: 25
      +1
      Quote: Sined
      Interestingly, it will be possible to create an analogue of GPS only in an autonomous form inside the aircraft itself, in the form of some kind of installation with sensors that takes into account the speed and direction and other parameters of the aircraft

      From time immemorial there has been a navigation system of the "Way" type.
  7. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 April 27 2021 06: 52
    +3
    "Positioning by stars"
    And you can also use the main landmarks: railway and motor roads, river beds, large settlements ...
    1. Piramidon
      Piramidon April 27 2021 11: 26
      +3
      Quote: rotmistr60
      "Positioning by stars"
      And you can also use the main landmarks: railway and motor roads, river beds, large settlements ...

      Especially over the ocean will help. lol
  8. akarfoxhound
    akarfoxhound April 27 2021 07: 12
    +13
    All our strategists and large "transports" are equipped with astrocompass workers, navigators of the Chelyabinsk VVAUSH, Voroshilovgrad and Stavropol VVAULSH practiced flights with the same DAK-DB on the An-26Sh and Tu-134Sh and passing tests in astronavigation is mandatory. From the sight of the "well-fed booklet" of the annual AAE (aeronautical astronomical yearbook) with the solution of its problems - the navigator's family is still distorting.
    The fact that during the war there would be no GPS only for a round donkey was not clear!
    1. Misha_an26
      Misha_an26 April 27 2021 07: 29
      +2
      And another entry on the drives. That's what I understand.
      1. akarfoxhound
        akarfoxhound April 27 2021 09: 54
        +3
        Yes, the call is understandable, but when these our vahlaks razderibanil ODS on the airways of all Russia mothers, handing them over to the "citizens", and they cut them as unnecessary, where there is an ambush in our Siberian spaces! We only have drives intact in the cost center (Moscow is untouchable! winked )
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. Eug
    Eug April 27 2021 07: 25
    0
    Astro-orientators are not a novelty for BR for a long time, but, most likely, for flights at low altitudes, an additional "repeater" is needed, flying higher.
  11. Klingon
    Klingon April 27 2021 07: 26
    0
    There is an inertial NAS and has existed for a long time. There is also a geomagnetic
  12. rocket757
    rocket757 April 27 2021 07: 37
    +4
    "Positioning by the stars": The US is looking for an alternative to the GPS system for strategic bombers when it is blocked by Russia and China
    ... Give the navigators a chronometer, sextant and astrolabe! To teach them how to work with them .... oh yes, let them also remember mathematics .... and let them pray to their gods that the Chinese would not learn to extinguish the stars!
    1. AlexeyEg
      AlexeyEg April 27 2021 12: 15
      +2
      It is not clear why all this should be given out .. if you can insert everything into the device .. cell phone scales.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 April 27 2021 12: 36
        +1
        It is possible, not a question, but it is not interesting and those devices do not run out of battery ... although, the chronometer may break, the compass may "demagnetize" and the astrolabe may be thrown overboard out of anger!
        Oh yes, the navigator's brains can go off one side, from such an overload, to work with prehistoric devices, anyone can bring to the brink!
  13. Bez 310
    Bez 310 April 27 2021 07: 40
    +4
    Very interesting...
    Aircraft Tu-22m3, Tu-95, Tu-142, Tu-160 never had a standard "GPS", and somehow all tasks were performed with the required accuracy. On the Tu-142 Pacific Fleet, I got the first primitive navigator of the "Magellan" type only at the very beginning of the 2000s. In general, our current navigators need to be constantly trained in flights without GPS, and the methods have been worked out for a long time.
  14. Ruslan Sulima
    Ruslan Sulima April 27 2021 08: 26
    0
    Okay, so be it, I'll give you an idea for astronavigation)
  15. Kalmar
    Kalmar April 27 2021 08: 37
    0
    the same country may well find ways to counter other systems

    Countermeasures to astronomical equipment, I believe, will be in the spirit of Arthur Clarke:
    “Look,” Chuck whispered, and George also turned his gaze to the heavens. (Everything happens one last time.)
    High above them, quietly, without noise, one after another the stars were extinguished.
  16. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I April 27 2021 08: 49
    +2
    Enough, men "suffer" for the American astronavigation! You first cough up ours!
    1.In Russia, the ANS-160 astronavigation system has been developed for Tu-2009 long-range bombers, which makes it possible to determine the coordinates of the aircraft with high accuracy based on the data on the position of the stars. This is stated in the message of the concern "Radioelectronic Technologies" (KRET), received by the editorial office of Lenta.ru.
    “This method is the most reliable in combat conditions, when satellite navigation systems can be disabled by the enemy. ANS-2009 can be installed on an aircraft together with strapdown inertial navigation systems that do not require external landmarks or signals coming from outside, ”said Vladimir Mikheev, deputy general director of KRET.

    2. Roskosmos will create a space instrumentation center, within the framework of which an astronavigation system will be developed, capable of replacing the GPS and GLONASS navigation systems in the future ....

    Thanks to advances in science and technology, specialists plan to implement a bold project of the Spektr-RG space observatory, in which innovative telescopes - the European eROSITA, as well as the domestic ART-XC will be installed. This is a very serious step towards the systematic development of space and astronomical technologies ... In particular, the observatory will make it possible to create an astronavigation system, which in the future may become more efficient than the already familiar satellite navigation systems - American GPS and Russian GLONASS. Astronavigation has a high accuracy of coordinates and is devoid of many of the problems that are observed in the work of satellite navigation. The Russian development will use X-ray pulsars. In addition, experts note that in the future such technology will be used in the work of spacecraft in order to better navigate in deep space. Representatives of the state corporation reported that the launch of the observatory is planned to be carried out within a year ...
    Source: https://politexpert.net/101087-alternativa-glonass-i-gps-v-rossii-sozdayut-sverkhtochnuyu-sistemu-navigacii
  17. International Observer
    International Observer April 27 2021 09: 07
    -4
    "Positioning by the stars": The US is looking for an alternative to the GPS system for strategic bombers when it is blocked by Russia and China

    Serves them right, they need to do even worse! It is necessary to jam and blind them, wherever they meet. The best option is if nothing will work on their bombers at all except odor sensors, which they will also soon implement, if everything goes right for us ...
  18. akropin
    akropin April 27 2021 09: 46
    -3
    As an amateur, I do not see any big problems in binding coordinates, dumping ammunition, to the terrain and key objects. Or has the military topography already been canceled? )
    1. Bez 310
      Bez 310 April 27 2021 09: 53
      +5
      Quote: akropin
      Or has the military topography already been canceled? )

      It’s good for you, amateurs, you don’t see big problems ... But I, as a specialist in air navigation over non-orientated terrain, I see problems. And the main one of these problems is the inability and unwillingness of today's navigators to fly without GPS.
      1. akropin
        akropin April 28 2021 11: 34
        0
        Unwillingness is understandable, laziness drives progress. But inability is a misfortune, possibly due to the lack of mentors and a stable training process. Again, I am an amateur, but I know for sure - if there is a direction in magnetic azimuth and a speed value, then it is possible to calculate your location.
  19. rotfuks
    rotfuks April 27 2021 10: 38
    0
    The best alternative to GPS is a regular compass. Imagine strategic bombers flying and pilots clutching Chinese compasses in their sweaty hands. Many have already forgotten that it was the Americans who started the games with the GPS off. They somehow sold heavy artillery with GPS guidance to Saddam Hussein and turned off the GPS at the right moment. By the way, it was after this incident that Russia started thinking about GLONASS. ...
  20. rotfuks
    rotfuks April 27 2021 10: 51
    +2
    In general, the popularity of GPS is determined by the availability of chips for GPS reception. When I first installed navigation on a car, the GPS module was the size of a matchbox. Now GPS chips are installed in every cell phone and GPS chips are now the size of a match head. That is, GPS is imposed on the public on a voluntary-compulsory basis. For example. Russian government agencies use GLONASS. China uses its own Beidou. Nobody will fall on the chaff like Saddam Hussein was caught with GPS artillery.
  21. APASUS
    APASUS April 27 2021 11: 48
    0
    Experts in the US are pondering how to use their strategic weapons systems, including bombers, in the event that Russia and China shut down the global positioning system (GPS).

    But what about the construction of a new closed GPS channel for military systems? Americans no longer know what to ask for money, they are gushing with ideas .............
  22. AshPoseidon
    AshPoseidon April 27 2021 13: 10
    0
    Star Positioning: The US is looking for an alternative to GPS ....
    Let's go by the stars! Two fingers to the left of Algol. wassat
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. UPS
    UPS April 28 2021 09: 01
    0
    And what if Russia and China turn off the stars?
  25. Prisoner
    Prisoner April 28 2021 16: 24
    0
    There is a suggestion. winked