Military Review

Swedish submarines: when quality does not make up for quantity

63

Yes, many experts today say that Sweden's non-nuclear submarines are the best in the world. The quietest, the deadliest. Capable of solving all the problems of Sweden's defense from ... By the way, it is worth considering in more detail from whom these miracle submarines will protect the Swedes.


But first, a little excursion into history.

For decades, submarines were produced in only two flavors: traditional diesel-electric submarines, which needed to rise to the surface every day or two to recharge their batteries with diesel engines, and nuclear submarines, which could be quietly underwater. for several months thanks to its nuclear reactors.

The disadvantages of nuclear submarines, of course, are that they cost many times more than diesel submarines and require the host country to have nuclear power technology and trained personnel. Plus the rather large size of nuclear submarines, which is not very convenient when it comes to the defense of, say, the coast of Sweden or Finland. Skerries, rugged relief, shallow depths, and so on.

In general, as a defender of coastal shallow waters, the nuclear submarine is not very good. But the diesel-electric one looks much more interesting. It is quieter than atomic (when running on batteries) and much cheaper.

But in small waters, the endurance of a nuclear submarine is not as important as the stealth of a diesel-electric submarine.

Sweden. A country located in a rather lively region of the Baltic Sea, where the interests of several regional powers, including members of the NATO bloc, intersect. Sweden itself is not a member of this bloc, but at one time it was given to the Swedes to understand what would happen if the country leaves the state of neutrality and decides to join NATO.

It seems to be helping so far.

The Swedes live with memories of the Soviet submarine S-363, which in 1981 sat on stones near the Swedish military base of Karlskrona. The boat was then nicknamed "Swedish Komsomolets". And the Swedish ships, impressed by where ours got under water, fought Soviet submarines for a long time. Often uselessly wasting ammo.

In 2014, Sweden again experienced a paranoia attack when the Swedish military tried to locate a Russian submarine in coastal waters, simulating a nuclear strike against Sweden. The boats, of course, were not found, but just in case they were very offended.

But the threat in Swedish brains still exists, and therefore something needs to be protected from it.

And work began to boil at the pace of the shock workers of capitalist labor.

Back in the 1960s, Sweden began developing an upgraded version of the Stirling engine, a closed-loop heat conversion engine created back in 1818.

In general, the engine debuted as an automobile engine sometime in the 1970s, and then the Swedish shipbuilder Kockums successfully adapted the Stirling engine for the Nekken submarine of the Swedish fleet in 1988. And they built three boats of this series.


Since the Stirling engine burns diesel fuel using oxygen stored in a liquefied form in tanks rather than taken from the atmosphere, the boat can safely navigate underwater for several weeks without the need to float to the surface. Moreover, it does it very quietly. And faster than electric motors.

In the late 1990s, Kockums built three Gotland-class submarines, the first operational submarines originally designed with air-independent propulsion systems.

The first boat of the series, the Gotland, became famous for sanking the American aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan during the 2005 military exercise. The Gotland was leased by the US Navy and served as an "adversary" in the exercise. It turned out that diesel-electric submarines with an air-independent power plant are a very dangerous enemy.


Stirling's technology in the Swedish version was licensed in Japanese and Chinese submarines, and Germany and France, for example, went their own way, developing more expensive submarines at VNEU on fuel cells and steam turbines.

The Swedes, meanwhile, even decided to make money on boats. And they did it in a very original way: they took four old Westergotland-class submarines and converted them for the installation of a Stirling engine.

To do this, the boats had to be cut and lengthened by 12 meters! From 48 to 60. Two boats still serve as the Södermanland class, and two were sold to Singapore and serve there as Archer class boats.

In general, "Södermanlands" is more an experiment than a serious work. The boats are quite old and should be removed from the fleet by 2022.

And to replace them, class A26 boats were supposed to come. Boats of a new generation and even a new concept.

But it didn't work out. The boats stubbornly failed. It is possible that it was a matter of competition. The Germans themselves happily built diesel submarines and traded them all over the world. And the company "Kockums", a Swedish shipbuilding company, belonged, however, to the German concern "Thyssen-Krupp".

There was a conflict of interest, and the Swedish military department refused to acquire boats from German Swedes or Swedish Germans. Only at their own.

Here the "own" concern SAAB appeared in time, which received the order for submarines. In an almost compulsory manner.

In SAAB, the gentlemen were pragmatic and did not want to quarrel with anyone. Therefore, without further ado, they bought Kockums from Thyssen-Krupp.

And in 2016, a contract was signed for the construction of two A26 submarines by SAAB for the Swedish Navy. The contract price is quite impressive: $ 959 million, which is only 20% of the cost of one Virginia-class nuclear submarine.

SAAB tried to sell boats to other countries: Australia, India, the Netherlands, Norway and Poland, but alas, the French and Germans very tightly took control of the diesel-electric submarine market with VNEU and did not want to give it to the Swedes.

Kockums claims the A26 will achieve new levels of acoustic stealth with the new Ghost technology, which will give the boat true near-absolute stealth. The technology includes acoustic damping plates, flexible rubber mounts for equipment, a low-reflection hull and a new demagnetization system to reduce the submarine's magnetic signature.

It is assumed that the A26 hull will also be very resistant to underwater explosions.

The boat will have X-shaped tail "fins" for greater maneuverability in the rocky waters of the Baltic Sea, and good armament from four 533-mm torpedo tubes that will fire heavy anti-ship torpedoes from the well-known company "Bofors" and two 400-mm tubes, which will use wire-guided torpedoes.

Four Stirling engines will provide an underwater cruising speed of 6 to 10 knots.

Manufacturers emphasize that the modular design of the boat allows for various modifications. For example, you can configure a boat to be placed in eighteen vertical launch silos for Tomahawk cruise missiles.

Poles, who have long dreamed of a boat with cruise missiles on board, are very interested in this situation. And the Swedes, for whom the "threat" is constantly present in the skerries in the form of Russian submarines, also really need it.

Let there is actually only one submarine for the entire Baltic Fleet.

Another important feature is a special "multipurpose" portal for the deployment of special forces and underwater vehicles, which is in great demand for modern submarines. Located between the torpedo tubes in the bow, the portal can also be used to receive the AUV-6 underwater drone, which can be launched from torpedo tubes.

Some American military publications such as The National Interest and Drive praise the Swedish boats in full vying. Exalting their possibilities to the skies.

Perhaps this is done with some hint in our direction. Anyway, they know what we read.

In fact, you can praise anything and how you want. There would be a desire. On the one hand, now it is worth just waiting for the boats of the A26 project to be realized in metal. And then everything will be clear: if potential buyers such as Poland, the Netherlands, Norway, that is, those who have a lot of desire, but little money, rush to buy, it means they have “floated”.

No - well, there are Germans and French on the market, there is someone to buy from, if necessary.

Another question is that if the Swedish boats are indeed very successful (and they may well be so), this may further affect the balance of power in the Baltic.

Alas, the Baltic Fleet, which has as many as one and a half "Varshavyanka" (one under repair) and without the Swedes, is in the position of the weakest in terms of submarine warfare.

Germany - 6 submarines, all 6 with VNEU.
Sweden - 5 submarines, all with VNEU.
Netherlands - 4 submarines.
Poland - 2 submarines.
Norway - 6 submarines.


Yes, rarities of the 60s of German construction, which are in service with the Polish Navy - this is purely for statistics.

But even without the Polish ruins, there are 11 boats with VNEU and 10 ordinary boats against us. Just 21 times more than DKBF.

There is something to think about.

In the event that the Swedes get at their disposal three newest submarines, it will further exacerbate the chasm between the fleets. And if they start selling their boats to anyone who can pay, then the matter will become even more unpleasant.

Even if Swedish boats are not as luxurious as they are trying to show. In any case, three submarines, even excellent ones, this is not enough for Sweden alone to be able to solve some of its tasks, except for the protection of its coast. In reality, the case when quantity can compensate for quality.
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. April 29 2021 06: 01
    -13%
    More submarines, large and small ... Soon it will be impossible to push through the Baltic Sea due to the multitude of various surface and submarine ships. what
    Does it make sense to increase the number of submarines with such a small sea area?
    Everything can be seen and shot through there from the coastlines.
    1. Deck
      Deck April 29 2021 06: 16
      +16
      Does it make sense to increase the number of submarines with such a small sea area?


      Do you propose to do with one Halibut built in 1986? Second Halibut "Alrosa" 1988 year not to be repaired? That the enemies would not run away from fright?
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. April 29 2021 06: 22
        -18%
        Justify the need to have more Halibuts, you can rivet at least ten pieces ... but they also need to be served, more people and resources should be allocated for them. And a couple of Halibuts in the area can also perform a combat mission. hi
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 29 2021 06: 35
          +16
          how will they do it if the sea is teeming with other people's submarines?
        2. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 29 2021 07: 05
          +2
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          Justify the need to have more Halibuts,

          Is the list of submarines of the countries of the potential enemy indicated in the article suitable as a justification? wink
          1. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. April 29 2021 07: 26
            -6
            No ... they proceed from their tasks, what task will you set the top ten Halibuts, justify this need.
            If the enemy has a hundred submarines in one area, will you put your hundred there on the principle of balance?
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 April 29 2021 09: 36
              +1
              Quote: Lech from Android.
              No ... they proceed from their tasks, what task will you set the top ten Halibuts, justify this need.
              If the enemy has a hundred submarines in one area, will you put your hundred there on the principle of balance?

              I'm not an expert in planning fleet operations and I'm not a submariner, but .. judging by the map, the BF is simply obliged to have 2 submarine brigades in Baltiysk and Kroshtadt, 6 pennants in each. At the outbreak of a serious conflict, support for the Kaliningrad enclave will become a priority, strategic task. Only submarines and MA BF can effectively ensure the safety of the naval convoy and give a tough rebuff to the enemy. 1, 2 or 5 boats are clearly not enough for such tasks. 12, I think, will be just right. Or maybe the submariners will correct me ...
              1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 29 2021 13: 23
                +4
                Quote: Doccor18
                Ensure the safety of the sea caravan

                Which caravan? From where to where?
                1. Volder
                  Volder 2 May 2021 06: 42
                  0
                  Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Which caravan? From where to where?
                  From Kronstadt to Kaliningrad, landing from the large landing ship on the coast of other countries, the exit of ships of the Baltic Fleet from the Baltic Sea to the North Sea.
        3. Proxima
          Proxima April 29 2021 13: 24
          +1
          I do not understand why the Americans have been promoting Swedish submarines with Stirling engines so much for many years, although the United States does not have a single similar submarine and is not expected to do so in the near future. And this is just VNEU - a low-power additional unit that will not replace the main diesel-Electrical engine. Whether it is a Stirling or another type of VNEU - for technical reasons, these are low-power installations that cannot be alternatives to either diesel-electric or even more nuclear engines.
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins April 29 2021 06: 43
        +16
        For one of me, the article caused conflicting feelings?
        In the title, the author mentions quantity - quality. Like, this did not happen. And then, throughout the article, I have to admit that Swedish boats are successful. Tactical, technical, economic.
        Or, a casually thrown question: who to defend against? And through a paragraph, he gives an example of how a Soviet boat sat on stones off the coast of Sweden.
        Not. Venigret turned out ...
        1. Artyom Karagodin
          Artyom Karagodin April 29 2021 09: 01
          +12
          $ 959 million, just 20% of the cost of one Virginia-class nuclear submarine

          "Virginia" according to Roman what, 4,8 billion Baku is worth ??? So this is 2 times more expensive than the "Seawolf", which the US Navy refused because of its high cost.
          1. Doccor18
            Doccor18 April 29 2021 09: 38
            +4
            Quote: Artyom Karagodin
            $ 959 million, just 20% of the cost of one Virginia-class nuclear submarine

            "Virginia" according to Roman what, 4,8 billion Baku is worth ??? So this is 2 times more expensive than the "Seawolf", which the US Navy refused because of its high cost.

            I also paid attention to this. Virginia from Roman is one and a half times more expensive than Seawulf, but in reality it is almost the opposite.
            1. Artyom Karagodin
              Artyom Karagodin April 29 2021 11: 51
              +2
              Well, everyone has mistakes. Although, maybe he didn’t quite accurately put it. I hope this point in the publication will be corrected?
  2. mark1
    mark1 April 29 2021 06: 35
    -5
    Planning a mine terror in the Baltic. To work out (and prepare) the possibility (operational methods of delivery / installation), in which case, fill the Baltic with mines of all designs (mostly the stupidest ones), ages and sizes - "soup with dumplings" only not in one Gulf of Finland, but on a general Baltic scale
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. April 29 2021 06: 58
      +3
      Yes smile We don't drive ourselves and we won't give it to others, mines can block the Baltic up and down.
      From the Second World War, old mines still surface from time to time.
      1. dauria
        dauria April 29 2021 08: 58
        +7
        I also thought - with modern electronics, create a mine with a power reserve and Einstein's brains. A sort of "drone". Let him lie and listen. And an acoustic encrypted channel, so that you don't "rush" on your own. After all, in essence, the submarine does the same - a mine with a crew slowly crawling over the position. Moreover, what is the point of having cruise missiles on submarines in the Baltic. It is easier to launch it from the shore, or from the air, than from a puddle, over which you can jump ..

        Yes, to the author - the Japanese abandoned the styling in favor of inserting the battery compartment into the case. The result is practically the same, but there are no hemorrhoids with cryogenic oxygen infrastructure at the bases.
    2. Doccor18
      Doccor18 April 29 2021 09: 41
      -1
      Quote: mark1
      Planning a mine terror in the Baltic. To work out (and prepare) the possibility (operational methods of delivery / installation), in which case, fill the Baltic with mines of all designs (mostly the stupidest ones), ages and sizes - "soup with dumplings" only not in one Gulf of Finland, but on a general Baltic scale

      And spit once and for all on the Kaliningrad region ...
      1. mark1
        mark1 April 29 2021 12: 39
        +8
        I don't know why I need to explain to you, but ... I will try - we are talking, of course, about the war period (hour H). And everyone knows that during this period, the best way to get to the Kaliningrad region is by land. smile
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 April 29 2021 12: 48
          +1
          Quote: mark1
          And everyone knows that during this period, the best way to get to the Kaliningrad region is by land.
          It sounds very promising, patriotic and, somewhere, even heroic ...
          Reality, in turn, can sometimes make its own adjustments ... By land, you still need to have time to reach ...
          1. mark1
            mark1 April 29 2021 12: 52
            +6
            Yes, even heroic, even cowboy. In the event of hostilities, how are you going to maintain contact with the Kaliningrad region by sea ?! On foot, diving, secret paths? See things realistically.
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 29 2021 13: 31
              +1
              Quote: mark1
              Yes, even heroic, even cowboy. How, in the event of hostilities, are you going to maintain contact with the Kaliningrad region by sea ?!

              Along the way, the comrade is seriously talking about underwater blockade breakers))) The shadows of World War II began to stir)))
          2. Aag
            Aag April 29 2021 18: 17
            +1
            Quote: Doccor18
            Quote: mark1
            And everyone knows that during this period, the best way to get to the Kaliningrad region is by land.
            It sounds very promising, patriotic and, somewhere, even heroic ...
            Reality, in turn, can sometimes make its own adjustments ... By land, you still need to have time to reach ...

            Do you think the sea will allow us to do this? (Correlate the balance of the fleets).
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 April 29 2021 20: 52
              -1
              Quote: AAG
              Do you think the sea will allow us to do this? (Correlate the balance of the fleets).

              The balance needs to be changed.
              Of course, not a single fleet, together with the Aerospace Forces, but how long the land operation to release the blockade may last is not known. And it is not known whether Sweden and Finland will be involved in the conflict.
              1. Aag
                Aag April 29 2021 21: 14
                +1
                Quote: Doccor18
                Quote: AAG
                Do you think the sea will allow us to do this? (Correlate the balance of the fleets).

                The balance needs to be changed.
                Of course, not a single fleet, together with the Aerospace Forces, but how long the land operation to release the blockade may last is not known. And it is not known whether Sweden and Finland will be involved in the conflict.

                Plus from me for the constructive ...
                But! Is there an opportunity (desire - let's leave it out of the discussion) to change the balance?
                As for the Scandinavians ... Do you have any doubts? This time they will not be given the opportunity to "sit out" as in WWII.
                ... In the Baltic, besides them, there are enough "opponents" (((.
                1. Doccor18
                  Doccor18 April 30 2021 06: 01
                  +1
                  Quote: AAG
                  But! Is there an opportunity (desire - let's leave it out of the discussion) to change the balance?

                  Isn't she not? What prevents the construction of a dozen, at least Varshavyanka (since VNEU does not go at all)? In the 90-2000s, a lot of them were exported, and the pace was good.
                  Quote: AAG
                  As for the Scandinavians ... Do you have any doubts? This time they will not be given the opportunity to "sit out" as in WWII.

                  There are doubts. It's one thing to shout militantly and pretend to be haughty, it's another to go to war and die for the interests of overseas curators.
                  Quote: AAG
                  ... In the Baltic, besides them, there are enough "opponents" (((.

                  This is yes.
        2. vadim dok
          vadim dok April 29 2021 15: 46
          -2
          Blessed is he who believes!
          1. mark1
            mark1 April 29 2021 15: 50
            0
            In faith, the main thing is not to listen to the voices of the enemy.
        3. Aag
          Aag April 29 2021 18: 30
          +2
          Quote: mark1
          I don't know why I need to explain to you, but ... I will try - we are talking, of course, about the war period (hour H). And everyone knows that during this period, the best way to get to the Kaliningrad region is by land. smile

          IMHO: from a technical, military point of view (we don't get into politics ...) there are two reasons not to implement your proposed project:
          1) we do not have mines of appropriate secrecy, reliability, selectivity. (Not special! - only on the basis of articles of the same resource!).
          2) the potential adversary (opponents) have minesweepers in sufficient numbers (open sources), and quality (according to the conclusions of the authors of "VO" close to the topic ...). (((
          1. mark1
            mark1 April 29 2021 18: 52
            -1
            1.
            Quote: AAG
            mines of all designs (mostly the dumbest), ages and sizes

            2.
            Quote: AAG
            in sufficient quantity

            this is a very subjective thing
      2. Aag
        Aag April 29 2021 18: 15
        0
        Quote: Doccor18
        Quote: mark1
        Planning a mine terror in the Baltic. To work out (and prepare) the possibility (operational methods of delivery / installation), in which case, fill the Baltic with mines of all designs (mostly the stupidest ones), ages and sizes - "soup with dumplings" only not in one Gulf of Finland, but on a general Baltic scale

        And spit once and for all on the Kaliningrad region ...

        Given the existing balance of forces of the fleets in the Baltic, will we be given a chance for sea transit?
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 April 29 2021 20: 56
          -1
          Quote: AAG
          Given the existing balance of forces of the fleets in the Baltic, will we be given a chance for sea transit?

          With the existing one - of course not.
          That is why I am writing that the Baltic Fleet is simply obliged to have serious submarine forces and naval aviation.
      3. Non liberoid Russian
        Non liberoid Russian 1 May 2021 04: 01
        +1
        during the war, no one will pay attention to Lithuania and Latvia. especially since these are countries from the NATO bloc.
    3. Aag
      Aag April 29 2021 18: 11
      0
      Quote: mark1
      Planning a mine terror in the Baltic. To work out (and prepare) the possibility (operational methods of delivery / installation), in which case, fill the Baltic with mines of all designs (mostly the stupidest ones), ages and sizes - "soup with dumplings" only not in one Gulf of Finland, but on a general Baltic scale

      I don’t know who minus you and for what ... Specialists with knowledge unknown to the general public, or people not familiar with geography (at least the Baltic) ... Maybe adherents of the theme that Kaliningrad, if Th, will pacify all countries having access to the Baltic Sea ... I would like to hear their arguments.
      1. mark1
        mark1 April 29 2021 18: 58
        0
        Quote: AAG
        I don't know who minus you and for what ...

        And these are my "fallovers", as Igorek Gnezdilov used to say.
  3. tlauicol
    tlauicol April 29 2021 06: 38
    +2
    The main problem of all these Kokums and Saabs is that there is no enemy. There will be no orders request
    With their hysteria about the threat from the East through the press, they are trying to somehow stir up the public consciousness and the consciousness of those who have money, but ... The facts show that there is no threat at sea. And boats are not particularly needed
  4. S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich April 29 2021 08: 05
    +4
    The main problem of the Baltic Fleet is not Swedish boats, but the disgrace of the Russian shipbuilding industry, which builds boats with the characteristics of the Great Patriotic War.
  5. Revolver
    Revolver April 29 2021 08: 15
    +7
    For the first time I hear that the Netherlands and Norway belong to the countries of the Baltic basin. Those. their submarines can enter the Baltic, of course, but then with the same success it is possible to insert both the USA and Britain into the list, and in general everyone who might want to play "sea battle" not on a piece of paper from a notebook in a box or even a computer, but specifically in nature.
  6. tatiana korzhenko
    tatiana korzhenko April 29 2021 08: 42
    +2
    And what will happen if Sweden ceases to be neutral and joins NATO? Russia attacks it? Sanctions? Or what?
    1. agond
      agond April 29 2021 09: 36
      +4
      It is interesting to figure out what they are made of. boats of a new generation and a new concept. class A26
      1 have 4 stirlings,
      2 as you know, the speed of a stirling is two to three times less than that of a diesel engine, therefore, it is necessary to use low-speed generators of increased size and weight,
      3 styling is very suitable for rotating the propeller of a boat without a gearbox, because both are slow-speed and, moreover, the styling is very quiet, but it is very difficult, but rather it is generally impossible to make a large unit power, in fact, that's why there are 4 of them there, the question arises whether they all rotate one screw at once, if not, then the value of its use is in doubt
      4 it seems (did not find data) the power plant of the new boats is not uniform and they have a conventional diesel engine in addition to the Stirlings
      5 diesel fuel is used to heat the styrling, the combustion products of which, in addition to carbon dioxide and water, contain other gases with which something must be done or chemically absorbed or liquefied using cryogenic equipment
      6 there is a supply of liquid oxygen on board, it is unclear whether or not it can be replenished during the hike
      7 diesel
      8 rechargeable batteries
      9 weapons
      In total, a small boat can fit a mixture of an underwater power plant with a chemical plant and an arsenal.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim April 29 2021 11: 28
        +5
        I think (did not find data) the power plant of the new boats is not uniform and they have a conventional diesel engine in addition to the Stirlings
        I think correctly.

    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 29 2021 12: 43
      +3
      Quote: Tatiana Korzhenko
      And what will happen if Sweden ceases to be neutral and joins NATO? Russia attacks it? Sanctions? Or what?

      I also do not quite understand this passage of Skomorokhov:
      but at one time the Swedes were given to understand what would happen if the country left the state of neutrality and decided to join NATO.

      By whom and what exactly was it "given"?
  7. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov April 29 2021 10: 25
    +1
    If the Baltic Sea is planted with modern mines, it will be very difficult to conduct operations at sea there. In addition, the entire water area is shot from the shore.
    It may be possible to use only submarines without a crew.
  8. Eldorado
    Eldorado April 29 2021 10: 54
    -3
    We have three boats in the Baltic.
  9. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev April 29 2021 12: 16
    +4
    The author will not tell you why there is a fleet in the Baltic in general in this trap, called the Gulf of Finland, and why there are submarines there. In peacetime, I still understand that it's just a base for sending ships to the Atlantic, but in wartime the fleet will be destroyed or locked up, cleaner than in the Second World War. Almost the same is with the Black Sea, or rather with a cruiser, which stands just like that, not performing any tasks in this region. Waste of money.
    It is necessary to decide what kind of power we are (sea or ocean) and what we want in peacetime and wartime. You in peacetime who are going to sink submarines? Well, in wartime, in the event of a conflict with the United States, our fleet will be destroyed very quickly, everything will be decided by the nuclear triad.
    Let the United States strain its navel by spending money on aircraft carrier groups, on the purchase of a huge number of weapons that are unnecessary in our time, but we have to choose what to develop.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 29 2021 12: 47
      -2
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      conflict with the United States, our fleet will be destroyed very quickly, everything will be decided by the nuclear triad.

      In fact, the navy is an integral part of this triad. If he "will be destroyed very quickly", then why would he need it at all, is it?
      1. agond
        agond April 29 2021 15: 39
        +1
        Regarding the Swedish Stirlings for P.L., as they write, they work on diesel fuel, where diesel fuel and oxygen are separately fed into the burner, like in a gas cutter, as a result, a compact flame with a temperature of 2000-2400 * C is obtained, the very thing that is needed to heat the working cylinder of a stirling , but the temperature is very high and requires the use of special materials, while it is very likely that combustion occurs with a slight excess of fuel, otherwise in the "flue" gases there will be oxygen that did not participate in the reaction with which then something must be done, and if combustion occurs with an excess of fuel then soot will surely stand out and it must be somehow removed, in general there are a lot of problems with their styling and obviously therefore ours did not copy them, and we need to go our own way, it is much easier to put a single power plant from a turbine with a generator on ethyl alcohol and oxygen, at the exit there will be carbon dioxide and distilled water, by the way, fresh clean water on the boat is also needed ...
        1. Couchexpert
          Couchexpert April 29 2021 17: 06
          +1
          There is such a fuel parameter, the specific heat of combustion: that is, how much heat is released during the combustion of an equal unit mass of fuel. Here are the values ​​for 1 kg of different substances:
          Substance - Heat of combustion, MJ / kg
          Hydrogen - 141
          Bor - 58
          Acetylene - 50,4
          Methane (laboratory) - 50,1
          Ethylene - 48,0
          Propane - 47,54
          Bhutan - 47,2
          Household gas - 46,1
          Propane-butane (balloon) - 43,8
          Gasoline - 42-44
          Lithium - 43
          Diesel fuel - 42,7
          Oil - 41
          Kerosene - 40,8
          Rapeseed oil - 39,6
          Sunflower oil - 39,5
          Fuel oil - 39,2
          Chemically pure carbon - 32,8
          Charcoal - 31
          Bituminous coal anthracite - 31
          Aluminum - 31
          Ethanol - 30
          Equivalent fuel - 29,308 (7000 kcal)
          That is, in comparison with the diesel fuel, it will be necessary to take at least 42% more by weight. Does this compensate for the resulting water formation?
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Vladimir Mashkov
          Vladimir Mashkov April 30 2021 20: 53
          +1
          Quote: agond
          Regarding the Swedish Stirlings for P.L.,

          I will not talk about the submarine war in the Baltic, the strength of NATO and the "weakness" of Russia, but I believe you are right that both the Swedish and German VNEU have a lot of problems. Therefore, there is no particular enthusiasm about them, and there are few similar boats.
          And good luck to our specialists. Yes, it's sour today. But when they do (which I have no doubt about) then we will rejoice. I hope - to the best VNEU.
      2. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev April 29 2021 18: 18
        +3
        Yes, not the fleet is part of the triad, but the submarine. All our other ships are good in peacetime. Our fleet is needed to perform local tasks, for example, in Syria. How much does "Moscow" actually just cost and practically does not move, and how much money is spent on its maintenance? All our ports, even Vladivostok, are wartime naval traps. Russia is a land country and its main strength is not in the navy, but in the ground forces. It is on this basis that Russia is now building corvettes, at least frigates and destroyers, the time of cruisers is over, and soon the aircraft carriers will be scrapped.
  10. smaug78
    smaug78 April 29 2021 15: 56
    +3
    Again, Roman's article about nothing ... Just a lot of letters ...
  11. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP April 29 2021 17: 06
    +2
    And what is there, in the Baltic, to do "if something happens"? There won't be any transport links, whether you control the water or not. Any transport from the shore will be sunk. Launch rockets from there from ships? Yes, also doubtful.
  12. lopuhan2006
    lopuhan2006 April 29 2021 17: 36
    +2
    And the fact that Sweden's boats are an integral part of NATO and they need to be considered precisely in the general statistics on the alliance. And at the moment, the BF is a flotilla, not a fleet, and it will be enough for a week to perform its functions in a global war. Another thing is that the theater of military operations itself will be overland and there will be nothing to transport after the loss of Kaliningrad. As a matter of fact, and there is no one, for at that moment the missiles will already arrive.
    1. agond
      agond April 29 2021 19: 14
      +1
      Quote: CouchExpert
      That is, in comparison with the diesel fuel, it will be necessary to take at least 42% more by weight.

      Yes, this minus alcohol will require more, though not 42;%, but somewhere by 25%, but how many pluses
      1 combustion products pure CO2 and H2O do not need to chemically absorb or liquefy anything
      2 alcohol slightly diluted with water can be burned in the turbine, this will lower the temperature of the turbine blades and add steam, that is, power
      3 steam-gas turbines have high speed and therefore they have a high power density, higher than that of piston engines, as a result the turbine will be small-sized and electric. the generator that she turns the same will be small and light.
      4 sealing the turbine-generator unit is much easier than sealing the stirling-generator unit, by the way, if one stirring turns the screw in a straight line (ideal for using it on a boat), then sealing its shaft will be a very difficult task, and mechanically connecting the shafts of four stirlings with a screw .. Approx. Stirling needs sealing due to the high pressure (150-240 atm and above) of the working fluid (gas) pumped into it, by the way, hydrogen or helium is best suited for the role of the working fluid, which is almost impossible to hold for a long time with stuffing box seals (you may have to have some supply of this gas for compensation for leaks) ...... in general, the Swedes are not at all bored with their strilings
      5 In terms of turbine noise, if turbine wheels are placed on the same shaft between two brushless DC generators, then this common "rotor" can rotate in a magnetic field without bearings almost silently, such a trick cannot be created with styling
      1. Couchexpert
        Couchexpert April 29 2021 20: 25
        +1
        Quote: agond
        Yes, this minus alcohol will require more, though not 42;%, but somewhere by 25%, but how many pluses

        Why? Taking into account the different density of diesel fuel and alcohol by volume, even by 46 (if in the same tanks - minus the range by the same 46). Because of the greater efficiency of a gas turbine engine compared to a diesel engine? And the guys on the tanks and ships don't know!

        Water in a turbine (if it is not steam in a steam turbine in the right place and with the right parameters) can cause various unhealthy phenomena from corrosion to cavitation, in addition, if the fuel is diluted in a heat engine, then the power will stupidly drop, not increase (per unit time less heat will be generated).
        1. agond
          agond April 29 2021 22: 12
          0
          There is, of course, a difference in the density of diesel fuel and alcohol and a difference in their heat of combustion, but this is not critical (experience in operating cars with alcohol), for reference in the A615 project the diesel fuel "lighter" was 23t or 5% of its underwater displacement of 504t, yet it was 8.5 tons of liquid oxygen and 14.9 tons of a chemical absorber, and a certain supply of fresh water was the same, for 10 days of autonomy for a crew of 33 people, and if autonomy is, say, 30 days, then more water will be required, of course you can desalinate the seawater just why if there it is already.
          And about "water in a turbine", when burning hydrocarbons, including alcohol, in pure oxygen the temperature is always far beyond 1000 * C and even 2000 * C, and so the temperature itself does not exert pressure on the turbine blades, but on the other hand actively destroys them, therefore, the temperature is not increased without special need, and in general turbines can operate with good efficiency even at 550 * C, and some water addition to alcohol will make the combustion temperature less than 1000 * C, and no "cavitation".
  13. kig
    kig April 30 2021 03: 00
    +2
    In any case, three submarines, even excellent ones, this is not enough for Sweden alone to solve some of its tasks, except for the protection of its coast
    - by the way, it is the protection of YOUR coastline and YOUR territorial waters that is the main task of the Swedish Navy.
  14. ZAV69
    ZAV69 April 30 2021 08: 51
    0
    Something tells me that in the event of a war there will be more mines in the sea than sprat and all these boats at the piers will rot.
  15. anclevalico
    anclevalico April 30 2021 11: 03
    -1
    Yes, even if you build 100 Varshavyankas, how will they fight if we don't have anti-submarine weapons?
  16. Andre
    Andre 1 May 2021 17: 22
    0
    On the "All Quiet Western Front" Remarque, there one of the heroes said, like why drive so many backgammon to the war. Let the two rulers of the warring countries come out and stuff each other's faces.
  17. Elturisto
    Elturisto 4 May 2021 14: 17
    0
    But we have a patriot park with a temple. The author seems to underestimate the power of prayer in the fight against an adversary.
  18. Basarev
    Basarev 4 May 2021 21: 22
    0
    Can't these boats be made unmanned? Not like Poseidon, the usual great torpedo, but a full-fledged unmanned submarine?
    1. agond
      agond 5 May 2021 16: 44
      +1
      Additionally, equip the torpedo with a snorkel with a small economical liquefied gas engine, plus a radio station to transmit your coordinates and to receive the coordinates of strangers, and the command to attack. Under the snorkel, it will swim for a long time and it will be quite difficult to find it, since it is too small and then you can periodically run on batteries, and if, say, instead of the internal combustion engine, put the styling on radioisotopes, then the autonomy will probably be six months. ,