Military Review

What is Russia?

274

A. Vasnetsov "Varyags"


В previous work we stopped at the moment of the "vocation of the Vikings". How the subsequent events are considered in modern scientific literature - this will be discussed in this article.

Vocation


In the conditions when the East Slavic tribes, standing at the tribal stage of development, mastered the forest zone of Eastern Europe, an event occurred that stimulated the emergence of early state institutions.

Written история Eastern Slavs begins with events in which the Slavs are involved in a clash with neighboring ethnic groups. The northerners, Radimichi and Vyatichi, who were on the forest-steppe border, were taxed by the nomadic formation of the Khazars. The question of the tribute of the Polyans to the Khazars remains open.

With this key term of early history - "tribute", we will come across more than once in the medieval history of the Slavs, so it requires clarification.

Tribute - payment to the winners from the losers, "Tormented" in the Old Russian language. What makes a tribute akin to an indemnity, but it is paid in a lump sum, and the tribute is paid constantly. It is not a tax, since a tax is a mechanism for payments within society, and tribute always goes outside. Where there is tribute, there is external interaction.

Tribute is a voluntary or forced payment in conditions where there is a loser and a winner, a measure of ransom and payment for security. It is a primitive form of exploitation that does not affect the structure of a tributary society. From the point of view of the ideas of that era, the phenomenon is humiliating and shameful for those who submitted - tributaries.

At the same time in the north the Vikings began to take tribute from the Slavs and their neighbors, the Finnish tribes. Slavic Slovenia, Krivichi and Finnish Merya, Chud and the whole united and drove out the enemies, but after that they began to fight among themselves: a clan rose up, as a result of which the "act of calling the Varangians" takes place.


I. Glazunov "Rurik"

The vocation is a history known among other peoples. The Britons, the Celtic inhabitants of Britain, invited the Saxons to England to defend themselves against invasions from the north:

“The noble Saxons,” wrote Vidukind of Corvey in the XNUMXth century, “the unfortunate Britons, exhausted by the constant invasions of enemies and therefore very embarrassed, having heard about the glorious victories that you won, sent us to you with a request not to leave (the Britons) without help. (Britons) are ready to hand over their vast, endless country, abounding in various benefits. "

But as a result, the Saxons, and after them and other Germanic tribes, having discovered the weakness of the Britons, captured England.

Rurik and his brothers came with their kin, with all of Russia to the "rich and abundant" country. Let us emphasize, with the family, not with the retinue, not with the people, but with the family:

“They love neatness in their clothes. Even men, Ibn-Dast wrote about the Russians, wear gold bracelets. They take care of their clothes ... They are tall, beautiful in appearance. They wear wide trousers: one hundred cubits of matter goes for everyone ... "

Al-Balkhi added:

"Some of them cut their beards, while others curl it like curls."


I. Semiradsky "The funeral of a noble Rus"

Who is this Russia, about which there are still disputes?


This question "torments" Russian historians, and not only them, for three hundred years already. From a scientific point of view, the question "where did Russia come from" is, if very much simplified, the question "who and how created the Russian primordial state?" I repeat, if I simplify it a lot, but more on that later.

Since the process of the emergence of a state is a long and time-consuming process, and it cannot be reduced to any one action. Moreover, the state arises only in the presence of classes, and in the conditions of a pre-class society, to which the tribal society of the Eastern Slavs undoubtedly belonged, the state could not arise.

Nevertheless, we have two key theories: Norman and Anti-Norman. The followers of the first believe that the Scandinavians laid the foundation for the state.

Supporters of the second oppose them.

Some of them are firmly convinced that Russia and the Varangians are not Scandinavians. Others admit the presence of a Scandinavian element, but, following the Marxist idea of ​​the emergence of the state, they consider this not so essential, proceeding from the fact that the state arises exclusively in the depths of society and cannot simply be brought in from the outside.

There are other theories where Russia was or is considered Khazars, Celts, Geruls, but they are more from the realm of fantasy than scientific analysis. Let us dwell on some of the key points about "Rus".

What is Russia?
Modern reconstruction of the rus

Dew and / or Rus?


Dew. Let's say right away: no people grew up in the Russian chronicle, only Russia is always present in the chronicle. Accordingly, there have never been "epic" dews or dews:

Thunder of victory, resound!
Have fun, brave Ross!

Ros is a book construction of Byzantine writers. The legend of the northern people Rosh - grew up under the leadership of Gog and Magog was popular in Byzantium.

And it is no coincidence that the Byzantine scribes, who loved historical pompous epithets and historical comparisons, called the northern barbarians, “Scythian tribe of unbridled cruelty”, Who attacked Constantinople and have a similar name, the people of Ros. Hence the Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus called the country of the "Ross" - Russia. In Russia, for the first time, the term Russia (with one s) began to be used at the end of the XNUMXth century, probably with the arrival of the Byzantine princess Sophia Palaeologus in Russia, but it began to be actively used and used in the name of our country only from the end of the XNUMXth century. We see that this is an absolutely bookish construction, which initially had nothing to do with historical events.

Russia. There are many opinions and theories about the name of Rus, its origin and habitat. Let's look at the main ones.

The South Russian hypothesis deduces Russia from the root of "dew". For example, the Ros River, the right tributary of the Dnieper, Roksolany, an ethnos that lived in the steppes of the Black Sea region, etc. It suggests that the Rus-dew originally lived in the Dnieper region.

The second assumes that Russia comes from a common Slavic root: * rud - / * rus> * rud-s- "fair-haired"; ru- / ry- "swim", "flow".

The third - "Gothic", derives Russia from the Gothic word "glory".

The fourth, West Slavic, connects the origin of Russia with the West Slavic tribe Ruge, Fr. Rugen, Ruthenia.

The fifth, perhaps the dominant theory today, says that the term was borrowed by the Slavs from the Finns, who still call their Scandinavian neighbors: ruotsi, comes from the Old Icelandic “rower, rower, paddle”: ross (rower) → ruossi (Swede) → rus.

Each of the proposed theories has its own pros and cons, and does not completely solve the problem of the emergence of the term "rus".

Most historians, Normanists or neo-Normanists, and many supporters of the "formation theory", believe that the Rus were Scandinavians. There are many arguments in favor of this version, they are not indisputable, but I will cite the key ones.

Firstly, these are onomastic data, from the above name "Rus", which is derived from the name of the rowers, to the names of the first princes, governors, guests, merchants and ambassadors. Most of them had Scandinavian or Germanic names (Rurik, Igor, Oleg, Olga, Rogvolod, Rogneda, Malfred, Askold, Dir, Sveneld, Akun, Farlaf, Ruald, Bern, etc.).

Rurik is associated with Rorik of Jutland. Close to them are the "luxurious" names of the Dnieper rapids described by Konstantin Porphyrogenitus.

Secondly, Russia introduced, according to the supporters of this version, many pre-state institutions or their elements: polyudye, an analogue of the Swedish "yord" or Norwegian "Weizla", a squad, a feast, a court of 12 citizens, a penalty in 3 monetary units. Legends such as the "song" about the Prophetic Oleg are analogous to the story of the death of Orvarr-Odin.

Thirdly, the presence of a Scandinavian funeral rite in Eastern Europe: burial in a boat, ashes in an urn, under a mound surrounded by a ring-shaped stone pavement, in chamber burials (in log cabins).

Fourthly, the Eastern Slavs did not have swords, they were brought to these territories by the Scandinavians who have long used this type weapons.

Their opponents doubt this version. They believe that, firstly, the Varangians-newcomers from across the sea in the XNUMXth century were the West Slavic tribe of the Wagrs (wagiri), known for their militancy as sailors fighting the German expansion.

Adam Bremensky, describing the large sea city of the Slavs Yumna, the center of trade in the Baltic, wrote that from the capital of the wagrs, Oldenburg - Stargorod, one can get to Yumna (Volin), and from Yumna it is fourteen days by sea to go to Novgorod.

That is, the path to Eastern Europe from the land of the Western Slavs was fairly well known.

In the Frankish annals there is information that the Danish king Goldfred ravaged the Slavic city of Rerik on the border with Denmark. Back in the fifteenth century. Austrian ambassador Herberstein suggested that it was from the coast of the Baltic Sea "from Wagria", where the Vagry, akin to the Eastern Slavs, lived, that the leaders and squads were invited to the Eastern Slavs.

Her opponents believe that there is no philological connection between the Vagrs and the Varangians.

Secondly, the visiting Scandinavians very quickly forgot their language. He practically did not leave a trace at all in the Russian language (30 words), unlike, for example, England, where there was a real conquest of British lands by the Scandinavians.

Thirdly, on archaeological sites that are associated with the Normans, Scandinavian finds make up no more than 30%, and if we exclude controversial or polyethnic finds, then there are less than 15% of them.

Fourth, even if we assume that the Scandinavians were able to quickly forget their language and stopped using their clothes and objects of material culture, then how could they easily abandon their religion and exchange Odin for Perun? Russia swears by Perun, not Odin or Thor, Russia makes sacrifices at the Oak, the tree of Perun, and not Odin.

At the same time, Perun is the squad leader of the Western Slavs, who were warlike sea robbers in the western part of the Baltic. Back in the eighteenth century. among the Slavs who lived on the Elbe, Thursday was "Perun dan", as Thursday is the day of Thor. Perun came to Kiev from the north.

And, finally, the Rurikovichs never said that they descended from the Scandinavians, and the Icelandic Sagas, describing all the genealogies of kings, nobility and free bonds, telling about the Russian princes Vladimir and Yaroslav, never derived their ancestry from Scandinavia. But everything is known in great detail about the relationship of the Scandinavian dynasties with the English kings.

Such are the main opinions on the issue of the term rus-ros.

What happened?


In 862, Rurik and his brothers, according to a later legend, occupied the tribal centers of the north-west of Eastern Europe.

Rurik with Sineus and Truvor, and with the Russian clan, began to rule where they were invited by a number (agreement). So in the north, a super-union is formed - a stable scientific term denoting a potestary, pre-state association of the tribal system period. The dominant positions in it, contrary to a number (agreement), are captured by Russia or the Russian clan. At the same time, Askold and Dir (or only Askold) rule in Kiev. According to one version, the leaders of a non-princely family from Russia, who left Rurik and seized the tribal center of the Polyans - Kiev. According to another version, Askold was a local Kiev leader.

Further: “dews” (the term of the Byzantine author of Theophan's Successor) attacked Constantinople and the Princes' Islands on two hundred ships. The metropolis had no serious defense, but the "godless dew" suddenly receded under the influence of a storm caused by the robe of the Mother of God from the Church of the Holy Mother of God of Blachernae. In 874, the emperor of the Romans, Michael III, concluded a treaty with these dews, and the first baptism of Rus took place. This fact was not reflected in the Russian chronicles, and the baptism of Rus under Vladimir in the XNUMXth century. was not reflected in Byzantine sources.

At the same time, under the leadership of Prince Rurik, according to a number of researchers, a control system was created in a super-union or a union of northern tribes, the center of which was Ladoga.

For the first time, military power becomes public, and in Eastern Europe a union of tribes is created - as the highest form of unification under the tribal system, sealed by this public power standing above the tribal elite.


I. Glazunov "Igor and Oleg"

After the death of Rurik, the union was headed by Oleg - according to one chronicle version, the governor of Rurik during the childhood of his son Igor, according to another version - the prince.

Some researchers, for various reasons, question the existence of Rurik, or his existence exactly in this form, however, like Oleg, which is not of great importance for our presentation.

At the end of the IX century. Oleg, at the head of the Russian clan and at the head of the militia of the northern union of tribes, moves south, subjugating the East Slavic tribes on the way to Kiev. In Kiev, he cunningly lures Askold and Dir out. In this episode, one can clearly see how sporadic the movement along the path from the "Varangians to the Greeks" and the trade travels themselves were.

The goal of Oleg, a kind of Russian, the militia of the northern tribes and the Varangians who joined them was a campaign for tribute to the south, and not seizing control over waterways - because of their low significance for trade. Which, under the conditions of the tribal system, was practically not implemented and was of an episodic nature.

The presence of a large number of finds of coins should not mislead us on this score: the coins were neither barter units, nor the equivalent of exchange, but just objects of female jewelry or sacrifices to the gods. An analysis of the placement of treasures shows that there are very few of them on the territory of the Eastern Slavs proper.

Therefore, having learned about the arrival of the "Ugric" guests, the Kiev rulers themselves came to inquire about the merchant ship, and here Oleg showed them Rurik's young son Igor with the accusation that they had no right to rule here, Askold and Dir were killed.


N. Roerich "Guests"

And Prince Oleg, in the center of the Polyana community, said about Kiev:

"Behold, mother with the city of Ruskim."

Oleg's words about “mati gradom Ruskim”It should be understood that the prince and his Russian clan, which means that the whole of Russia passed from Novgorod or Ladoga to Kiev, and the leader of Russia established a new hierarchy, where Kiev becomes the center of Russia or the Russian clan and all the lands and tributaries belonging to them.

And the northern tribes and mercenaries of the Varangians, having received tribute from the captured Kiev, returned to themselves. Russia made the lands of the meadows, parts of the lands of the northerners and the Radimichs, and, possibly, part of the Vyatichi as its "domain". These are the future principalities with centers in Kiev, Chernigov and Pereyaslavl.

Under the new conditions, the Russian clan turns from a military clan "corporation" into a supra-tribal system of government, which gradually included the clan nobility of the tribes, and simply strong warriors-heroes.

As the Arab author Masoudi wrote:

"The Rus are made up of many peoples of different kinds."

Russia from Kiev conquers new tributaries:

"They raid the Slavs," wrote Ibin-Dast, "approach them on ships, go ashore and fill the people, who are then sent to Khorezm and the Bulgarians and sold there."

The Rus conquered the Slavic tribes of the Drevlyans, Northerners and Radimichs, the former tributaries of the Khazars. Oleg defeats the tribal unions of the southern tribes of the Tivertsy and Ulitsy

No one wanted to fall into tributary dependence and pay tribute without a fight.

How the war for tribute took place can be seen in the chronicle legend about Olga's revenge on the Drevlyans: this was a real war of extermination, primarily of the tribal nobility.

So on the border of the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries. Russia united vast territories under its rule: most of the East Slavic and Finno-Ugric tribes. This union was not an early state in the full sense of the word, it was a shaky "federation".

For its designation, the term super-union of tribes is also used, which I have mentioned more than once, a structure corresponding to the tribal stage of development. At the head of the "super-union" was Russia or the Russian clan, which received tribute from the subordinate tribes, controlling exclusively the processes associated with them, and attracted tribal militias to participate in large-scale campaigns for the same tributes.

Because without this forcible unification of these lands by the Russian clan, further progress in social relations associated with the destruction of the isolated, conservative clan system in the boundless expanses of Eastern Europe would be impossible.

Bibliography:

Adam of Bremen, Helmold from Bosau, Arnold of Lubeck Slavonic chronicles. M., 2011.
Widukind of Corveyskiy Deed of the Saxons. Introductory article, translation and comments by G.E.M. Sanchuk, 1975.
News about the Khazars, Burtases, Bulgarians, Magyars, Slavs and Russians. Translation and commentary by Khvolson V.A.SPb., 1869.
Konstantin Porphyrogenitus. On the management of the empire. M., 1991.
Successor of Theophanes. Biography of the Byzantine kings. SPb., 2009.
Priselkov M. D. History of Russian chronicle writing of the 1996th-XNUMXth centuries. SPb., XNUMX.
Vashchenko E. D. "Khazar problem" in the national historiography of the XVIII-XX centuries. SPb., 2006.
Dvornichenko A. Yu. Mirror and chimeras. About the origin of the ancient Russian state. SPb., 2012.
Klein L. S. Dispute about the Varangians. S-Pb., 2009.
Melnikova E.A. Ancient Russia and Scandinavia. Selected Works. M., 2011.
Nasonov A. N. "Russian land" and the formation of the territory of the ancient Russian state. M., 1951.
Priselkov M. D. History of Russian chronicle writing of the 1996th-XNUMXth centuries. SPb., XNUMX.
Stang H. The name of Russia (Herulian version). S-Pb., 2000.
Fomin V.V. Varangians and Varangian Rus. To the results of the discussion on the Varangian issue. M., 2005.
Froyanov I. Ya.Kievan Rus. L., 1990.
Froyanov I. Ya. Slavery and tributary. SPb. 1996.


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Eastern Slavs - the beginning of history
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  1. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 April 25 2021 05: 25
    +18
    I read it, it’s interesting. My grandmother was born in 1902, a native of the city of Grodno, was a devout person, but when she was angry with me, she always said: “Hi, Perun will punish you!” My name is Igor smile
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 April 25 2021 06: 06
      +8
      Quote: Pessimist22
      My name is Igor

      Incredible! And Oleg and Rurik are not your relatives?))
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 April 25 2021 08: 34
      +9
      And my grandmother used to say: "God is not a crumb." Obviously derived from Mokosh.
      1. AK1972
        AK1972 April 26 2021 12: 34
        +1
        And my grandmother scolded the cat with a Radim when he nags.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 April 26 2021 14: 00
          +2
          This was probably hinting at a seizure with convulsions.
          1. AK1972
            AK1972 April 26 2021 15: 26
            +1
            Quote: Korsar4
            This was probably hinting at a seizure with convulsions.

            No, they meant the Radimichi, who were notorious among the Slavic tribes. The grandmother may not have known about this tribe, but the radimichi were firmly entrenched in the sayings. "Take you Radimets" is another of her favorite sayings.
          2. Catfish
            Catfish April 27 2021 01: 08
            +2
            Most likely. "I had enough radio" - I heard this expression in my childhood. But a cat's seizure is hard to imagine.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 27 2021 03: 33
              +2
              But they can be capricious too.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish April 27 2021 04: 01
                +2
                Oh, it is - yes! smile
                "Catches us on parole
                On a piece of sausage "(c)))))
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 27 2021 05: 41
                  +2
                  At the same time, everything that does not do - with dignity.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish April 27 2021 06: 39
                    +2
                    He doesn’t mind that. smile
    3. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 09: 18
      +10
      Good afternoon,
      the famous archaeologist and theorist of archeology Klein writes about this use of Perun, he himself was from Belarus and he has the same history.
      I wrote about this in the article "Arrows of Perun"
      Thanks for the information.
      hi
      1. cat Rusich
        cat Rusich April 27 2021 00: 20
        +2
        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Good afternoon,
        the famous archaeologist and theorist of archeology Klein writes about this use of Perun,
        hi
        Lithuania was baptized in 1387.
        Zeimantia was baptized in 1413
        Grodno, and Belarus as a whole is not far from these places - that's where Perun lingered in the people's memory.
    4. knn54
      knn54 April 25 2021 09: 48
      +1
      -The question of the tribute of the Polyans to the Khazars remains open.
      Even the Volhynians paid (though not for long), but the Tivertsy and the White Croats are in doubt.
      By the way, Prince Igor's name was Ingvar.
      There is a "weak" version that Russia originated from the word RUSlo.
      Regarding the Rurikovichs. The most interesting thing is that the dates of birth of EXACTLY Princess Olga and Svyatoslav are undefined - +/- 20 years.
      That is, the difference in birth (which was extremely rare then) was more than forty years. Olga was the grandmother of Svyatoslav. And the baptist of Russia-Vladimir was a great-grandson. Again in some Novgorod chronicle it slipped that Vladimir's uncle, Dobrynya (brother of his mother Malusha ) called her a grandmother as a child
      In his youth, I heard from the Bulgarians a version that the daughter of Princess Olga was married to the Bulgarian king (who changed no less often than the Byzantine emperors). Hence Svyatoslav's desire to take the Bulgarian throne. Hence the distance from the Vikings.
      That Svaneld, who betrayed Svyatoslav, will not forgive him. in difficult times.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2021 12: 26
        +1
        Eduard, thanks for the above article.
        I'm wondering why you use the term "super tribal union" and not "proto-judiciary"?
        However, the appearance of the Old Russian state is so controversial.
        Various historians argue and set their dates.
        1. From the moment the Varangians were called.
        2. Capture of the ruler Oleg - Kiev.
        3. Baptism of Russia.
        I would add a fourth to them - the administrative reform of Princess Olga. For me, as a lawyer, this is the most fundamental moment in the formation of the state system.
        Regards, Vlad.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 27 2021 17: 22
          +1
          Vladislav,
          I apologize, I did not answer, from the point of view of modern, and not quite modern science, Ancient Russia is a potestary society, it is not entirely correct to attribute it to the state, public power is just being formed, and I am going to write about this in this cycle))))
          Yours faithfully,
          hi
      2. paul3390
        paul3390 April 25 2021 14: 13
        +3
        By the way, Prince Igor's name was Ingvar

        It is highly doubtful. If only because the generic names of Russian princes - they know both options. Both Igor and Ingvar. Counting them obviously as two different names. For example Igor Olgovich and Ingvar Yaroslavich! And there was in general a very characteristic Ryazan prince Ingvar Igorevich !!
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 20: 45
          0
          Doubtful argument. Ingrvar Igorevich, how many centuries did he live after the events described? During this time, the name could be divided and both options began to live on their own. Let me remind you that Yuri and George were once the same name.
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. SVD68
      SVD68 April 25 2021 06: 47
      +12
      The use of the term Muscovy unambiguously defines Ukronazi propaganda.
      1. silverura
        silverura April 25 2021 10: 23
        -5
        The use of the term Muscovy unambiguously defines Ukronazi propaganda.

        Do you mean the European map? But but yes

        “4 Carte de l'Europe divisee en ses Principaux Etats. 1755. "
        1. SVD68
          SVD68 April 25 2021 12: 17
          0
          Quote: silverura
          Do you mean the European map?

          Not. On the map is the Polish-Catholic propaganda. And you are trying to adapt it to your ukronazi propaganda.
          1. silverura
            silverura April 25 2021 12: 21
            -4
            On the map is the Polish-Catholic propaganda.

            What do you mean?
            So ash pepper, that its own propaganda is dearer and warmer, yes
          2. Gato
            Gato April 25 2021 18: 29
            +5
            Not. On the map is the Polish-Catholic propaganda.

            Then the Protestant Anglo-Saxon, since this map was included in the Atlas Methodique, Compose pour l'Usage de son Altesse Serenissime Monseigneur le Prince d'Orange et de Nassau Stadhouder des Sept Provinces-Unis, etc .. etc. etc. Par Jean Palairet, Agent de LL. HH. PP., Les Etats Generaux, a la Cour Britannique. Se Trouve a Londres, Chez Mess. J. Nourse & P. ​​Vaillant dans le Strand; J. Neaulme a Amsterdam & a Berlin & P. ​​Gosse a La Haye. 1755 ”, published in London by English, German and Dutch cartographers. Which are never Catholics.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. EMMM
          EMMM 2 May 2021 00: 44
          0
          Good map.
          Wikipedia:
          1937 Ochakov was taken by Field Marshal Christopher Minich, but a year later he was abandoned and returned to Turkey.

          The second siege of Ochakovo occurred in 1788 and was sung in Derzhavin’s ode. By that time, the garrison of the city totaled 20 thousand soldiers. The fortress was defended by 300 guns. In the western suburbs was the castle of Gassan Pasha (Battery Cape).
          So the concept of Ukraine (Little Russia) did not exist by that time?
          But what about 1564?
          And where did the Battle of Poltava in 1708 take place, when the territory of Little Russia belonged to the Commonwealth?
    2. VORON538
      VORON538 April 25 2021 06: 48
      +8
      Would you walk away with your alternative history from another ukropseudo-historian, "ancient Ukrainian" :)))
    3. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 April 25 2021 06: 52
      +3
      You then do not belong to Russia, you Lyakhski half-breeds, who consider themselves the masters of Little Russia, this is the land we have conquered, Ukraine will sooner or later disappear as a state.
    4. Alex_1973
      Alex_1973 April 25 2021 07: 44
      +12
      Another crazy svidomo? Your whole problem is that Muscovy was able to withstand no matter what, and the Kiev region was spread like the last sorry... God forgive me for anyone who wishes it, it was, is, and apparently it will remain. So it's not for you to try on our history. There was nothing in your history that you could be proud of, so you are looking for something to come up with, but it is better to take it from your neighbors. If Ukraine has something to be proud of, it is only what it did as part of Russia and nothing else.
      1. silverura
        silverura April 25 2021 07: 53
        -19%
        There was nothing in your history that you could be proud of, so you are looking for something to come up with, but it is better to take it from your neighbors.

        What are you talking about?

        What is this?
        1. Nazar
          Nazar April 25 2021 07: 58
          +10
          silverura - There is no such state in history - "Ukraine", in fact, soon it will not be on the map either hi
          1. silverura
            silverura April 25 2021 08: 06
            -14%
            silverura - There is no such state in history - "Ukraine", in fact, soon it will not be on the map either

            Thank you! I also heard about it, that's why they say that they will sort of be renamed to - Rus Ukraine. request
            1. VORON538
              VORON538 April 25 2021 08: 18
              +9
              Yes, you can immediately rename your Ukraine at least to Eden :))) But as you lived in the farms, you will continue to live, shouting "we all must and give more" :)))
        2. Alex_1973
          Alex_1973 April 25 2021 08: 02
          +24
          And what is it? Another delirium from the madhouse? Fucking funny, you, even in your malaise, cannot separate two simple things, Yuri Dolgoruky was firstly a Kiev prince, not a Ukrainian one, and secondly, a Bandera man, a follower of the ghoul Stepan Bandera, and not just any Svidomo. The Kiev princes were neither Bandera nor Ukrainians, they had never even heard such a word.
          I do not quite understand why you suddenly consider yourself somehow sideways involved in Kievan Rus. The only side you are to her is only territorially. If we are to take your history, then it should rather be considered from the Galicia-Volyn principality.
          1. silverura
            silverura April 25 2021 08: 24
            -18%
            I don’t quite understand why you suddenly consider yourself somehow sideways involved in Kievan Rus.

            I explain!
            30 years ago there was the USSR in which we all lived, but something went wrong in Moscow. The same process was used many centuries ago, only from different circumstances and initial ones!

            "At the same time, the ancestors of the Russians, as a result of separation from Kiev, formed their own state - Suzdal, which later received the name Zalesye, and even later - Muscovy."
            1. VORON538
              VORON538 April 25 2021 08: 36
              +5
              That is, in your opinion, proto-Ukraine, the founders of which dug the Black Sea and built pyramids, disintegrated thousands of years ago and then Moscow appeared? :))) You also teach geography exclusively from the globe of Ukraine! :)))
              1. silverura
                silverura April 25 2021 10: 33
                -9
                You also teach geography exclusively from the globe of ukraine to hike! :)))

                That is not the same!
                For European maps, for example, see the inset above - a map from 1755. yes hi
                1. VORON538
                  VORON538 April 25 2021 10: 46
                  +3
                  There is no Ukraine there! :))) Do not cling to Russia-Russia! Although, your ukropsevdohistorians will soon get to the Bible, they will rewrite it in their own way. And you will believe it too :)))
                  1. silverura
                    silverura April 25 2021 11: 25
                    -11%
                    There is no Ukraine there! :)

                    So Russia did not exist 350 years ago, but it was Russia, that still what - Kiev! bully

                    I wonder what Anna Kievskaya knew about Russia then?
                    1. VORON538
                      VORON538 April 25 2021 11: 28
                      +1
                      Look at the map that you laid out, ignoramus. There is no Kievan Rus either. Russia-Rus (Moscow) is. And the history of Russia-Rus is not 350 years, how your ukropseudo historians wash your brain. And the term ukraine appeared how many years ago ? 100? 150? Ukraine is just a temporarily lost fragment of the Russian Empire. Time will put everything in its place!
                      1. silverura
                        silverura April 25 2021 11: 53
                        -11%
                        ignoramus
                        Nice to meet you! drinks

                        And the term ukraine appeared how many years ago? 100? 150?

                        And what does the Bee Plan's card say about it?
                        Approximately the same age - Ukraine and Russia !? request
                      2. VORON538
                        VORON538 April 25 2021 12: 06
                        +4
                        And here there is no Ukraine :))) Tie it up already :)))
                      3. silverura
                        silverura April 25 2021 12: 26
                        -5
                        there is no Ukraine

                        You are mistaken No. as always, the lower right corner is "Ukraina". bully 1648., Map of Bo Plan.
                      4. ee2100
                        ee2100 April 25 2021 12: 50
                        +8
                        Well done! Hold on well! And all because they were two parts of one whole.
                      5. VORON538
                        VORON538 April 25 2021 14: 14
                        -2
                        Due to the modern development of technology, it was possible to write new meetings lol So you fly with your Ukraine like plywood over Paris lol
                      6. Alexander Gaidukov
                        Alexander Gaidukov April 25 2021 15: 13
                        +5
                        Quote: silverura
                        there is no Ukraine

                        You are mistaken No. as always, the lower right corner is "Ukraina". bully 1648., Map of Bo Plan.

                        This is a fake, from the ukropatriots. Here is Boplan's map. Ukraine NO.
                      7. Alexander Gaidukov
                        Alexander Gaidukov April 25 2021 16: 13
                        +9
                        Quote: silverura
                        there is no Ukraine

                        You are mistaken No. as always, the lower right corner is "Ukraina". bully 1648., Map of Bo Plan.

                        Your card is fake, here is the true card of Boplan, no Ukraine.
                        Lower right.
                  2. paul3390
                    paul3390 April 25 2021 14: 22
                    +5
                    And what does the Bee Plan's card say about it?

                    And you read what is written there at the bottom right .. laughing

                    "Overall plan Of wild fields, more simply called Ukraine, with adjacent provinces "(Delineatio generalis Camporum Desertorum vulgo Ukraina, cum adjacentibus Provinciis)
                  3. The comment was deleted.
                  4. Doliva63
                    Doliva63 April 25 2021 19: 55
                    +2
                    Quote: paul3390
                    And what does the Bee Plan's card say about it?

                    And you read what is written there at the bottom right .. laughing

                    "Overall plan Of wild fields, more simply called Ukraine, with adjacent provinces "(Delineatio generalis Camporum Desertorum vulgo Ukraina, cum adjacentibus Provinciis)

                    It seems to me that in the original Dikia fields were called environs, not Ukraine.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. Looking for
                  Looking for April 25 2021 16: 33
                  +3
                  But Ukraine has always been someone's COLD-Lithuanian.polsky.russky..in one word, locality.not a state.
            2. The comment was deleted.
    5. Xnumx vis
      Xnumx vis April 25 2021 11: 24
      +9
      Quote: silverura
      I explain!

      Victim of svidoosvity .. Have you ever heard anything about cities Novgorod (The official date of the emergence of Novgorod is considered to be 859), Pskov(Pskov is one of the oldest cities in Russia, it was first mentioned in the Laurentian Chronicle under 903 [4]. In 1348-1510 - the capital of the independent Pskov Republic. In 1510 it was annexed to the centralized Russian state. Until the beginning of the XNUMXth century Pskov was one of the largest cities in Russia and Europe, the most important defense and trade center of the country), Staraya LadogaUnder the Zemlyanoy settlement, the plowing of the surface was carried out at excavation site 4 no later than or somewhat earlier than the 3th century, and at excavation XNUMX - starting from the second half of the XNUMXth century - the first half of the XNUMXth century, Staraya Russa (The birch bark letter No. 1975 found in Novgorod in 526 confirms the existence of Rusa in the middle of the 13th century: "On Boyana in Rous, gr (s) vna, on Zhitob (o) ude in Rous, 15 koun and gr (and) in truth ..." [ 13] Not much younger - the last quarter of the 16th century - and the oldest birch bark letter found in Ruse itself (fragment of the debt list, No. XNUMX) [XNUMX].
      According to the investigated monuments, the archaeologist G.S. Lebedev dated the emergence of Staraya Russa at the turn of the X-XI centuries) Polotsk... The first mention of Polotsk in chronicles dates back to 862. The Nikon Chronicle mentions the campaign to Polotsk by Askold and Dir under the year 865 ... Ignorant grew up, victims of svidoukosvity ... forgot how to think
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2021 14: 02
        +11
        Quote: silverura
        So Russia did not exist 350 years ago, but it was Russia, that still what - Kiev!

        To educate the poor.
        Kievan Rus is a time period introduced into scientific circulation at the end of the century before last!
        Now a little math.
        Subtract 2021 years from 350 - we get 1671 from the Nativity of Christ.
        Moscow is and is the capital city. Kiev also exists, but it is part of the state, where the capital is Moscow. In 1686, this status is legally consolidated. In fact, Kiev was bought by Moscow, which was recognized by the Poles, the world community and the Ukrainians themselves.
        Now about the name of the state, the capital of which was Moscow and which included the city of Kiev. Russia is a monarchy, in connection with which the name of the state should be taken not from old maps written by foreigners, but from the title of the sovereign.
        The grace of God, We, the Great Sovereign Tsar and Grand Duke Alexei Mikhailovich of all Great and Little and White Russian autocrat of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, the Tsar of Kazan, the King of Astrakhan, the King of Siberia, the Sovereign Pskov and Grand Duke of Lithuania, Smolensk, Tver, Volyn, Podolsk, Ugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgarian and others, the Sovereign and Grand Duke of Novogorod Nizovskii land, Chernihiv, Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozersk, Udora, Obdorsky, Kondiysky, Vitebsky, Mstislavs cue and all Northern countries, the Lord, and the sovereign of the Iversk land, the Kartalinsky and Georgian Kings, and the Kabardinian lands, Cherkasy and Highland Princes, and many other states and lands, eastern and western and northern, the father and the heir, the heir, the sovereign, and the Owner .
        Well, the last nail in your faith!
        At the dawn of history - three times Russian princes passed to Kiev to put "dots above and".
        Those mentioned above by Eduard are Oleg and Igor.
        Later, Igor's grandson is Vladimir.
        And Yaroslav the Wise, already mentioned by you. In all cases they were led by the Novgorod army. The chronicler wrote about the last two "Rus went to Rus."
  • ANB
    ANB April 25 2021 18: 39
    +1
    ... Kiev region as spread as the last, forgive ... God forgive, for anyone who wishes it

    Forgive God, this is for money. And when for everyone, it is called differently. If it is soft and censored, then "walking".
  • Arkon
    Arkon April 25 2021 07: 58
    +3
    "Russia is the territory of modern Central, and from the end of the XII century - and Western Ukraine, and nothing else."

    "Rus" as a territory did not exist until the moment when the "Rus" acquired statehood. That is, there was a tribe, but there was no state. With the call of the "Rus" (Rurik was a Rus) to Novgorod by the Ilmen tribes, mutual enrichment took place - Russia was formed as a state.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 April 25 2021 08: 28
      +5
      That is, there was a tribe, but there was no state. With the call of the "Rus" (Rurik was a Rus) to Novgorod by the Ilmen tribes, mutual enrichment took place

      The Novgorod chronicles give a clear and consistent description of the vocation - the Novgorod prince Gostomysl had no sons left. Therefore, Rurik, the son of the middle daughter Umila, was called. As you can see, the Slovenes had a state even before Rurik, and they called in because he had the right to do so. Moreover, the offspring of the eldest daughter was not considered - apparently, either there were no sons, or the Novgorodians did not like her husband. Perhaps - because just not a Slav .. And Umila - was married to the Vagir prince, that is, Rurik and his brothers were also his own, a Slav, and had all the rights to reign, and at the same time was not a native of the local aristocracy, which means he could be neutral in local squabbles. A very convenient option.
      1. Arkon
        Arkon April 25 2021 08: 37
        +1
        I'm talking about the state of "Rus". "Rus" - a tribe that got its name outside the Slavic lands of the present Russian Plain. They came to us with the name "rus". Yes, "Rus" is a Slavic-speaking tribe, but its lands are the lands of present-day East Germany, most likely. And in those lands there was no state "Rus". This was formed by the symbiosis of the name "rus" and the territory of the Ilmenian Slavs.

        I just wanted to say that.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 April 25 2021 08: 46
          +1
          these are the lands of what is now East Germany

          A very possible option. Moreover, the ancient tribe of Rugs was mentioned by the Romans in those places. And the same Princess Olga - in the appeal of the German emperor for some reason was titled as regina Rugorum, and by no means regina Russorum. It was also mentioned by Bishop Adalbert and other sources. That is, she is the queen of the Rugs, and not the Russes at all .. And in those days, the title was given great importance ...
          1. Sergey Sfiedu
            Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 00
            0
            Namely, the title, it was called "regina", and the names of the peoples were romanized, as best they could, there is no particular sense to fall in on swearing.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master April 25 2021 12: 17
        +6
        Quote: paul3390
        Gostomysl has no sons left. Therefore, Rurik, the son of the middle daughter Umila, was called.

        Gostomysl and Umila are characters from the Joachim Chronicle, not the Novgorod one. The Joachim Chronicle is a fake of the XNUMXth century.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 April 25 2021 13: 23
          +2
          Unproven statement. With the same success, you can declare the rest of the chronicles as fakes. And who, in the 19th century, could have thought of writing something about Rurik? Moreover, in the XNUMXth century, a folk legend about the vocation of three brothers, which exactly coincides with the message of the chronicle, was recorded on the territory of the former cheerleaders. Recorded by the way French Marmier .. Why should he lie?

          In the XNUMXth century, the tribe was ruled by a king named Godlove, the father of three youths, equally strong, brave and hungry for glory. The first was called Rurik, the second Sivar, the third Truvar. The three brothers, not having a suitable opportunity to test their bravery in the peaceful kingdom of their father, decided to go in search of battles and adventures in other lands. They headed east and became famous in the countries through which they passed. (…) After many good deeds and terrible battles, the brothers, whom they admired and blessed, came to Russia. (...) Then Rurik received Novgorod as reign, Sivar - Pskov, Truvar - Belo Lake.

          And in general, in the Mecklenburg and Pomerania region, this motive is often mentioned ..
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 25 2021 13: 30
            +6
            Only Tatishchev saw the Joachim Chronicle. Based on the quotes that he cited, linguists unambiguously determined the time of its origin - not earlier than the end of the XNUMXth century.
            Traditions and legends recorded in the XNUMXth century. historical sources for the events of a thousand years ago cannot be. The Frenchman didn’t lie, he really didn’t need it. He wrote down what he heard, nothing more.
            1. paul3390
              paul3390 April 25 2021 13: 33
              +1
              Adam of Bremen quoted their tribal self-name - reregi, which, along with the toponym Rerik, could be associated with the name of the Varangian prince Rurik.


              Friedrich Thomas wrote, referring to his predecessors Latom and Chemnitz, that the encouraging king Witslav (he is also mentioned by the Frankish chronicles) was married to the daughter of a certain Russian prince, and the son of this marriage was Prince Godleib, who became the father of three brothers Rurik, Sivar and Truvor, born Vendian and Varangian princes, called to rule over Russia. After the imminent death of two brothers, Rurik allegedly became the autocratic ruler of Russia.

              Strange - the sagas recorded after an unknown time - like are historical sources, but Slavic folk tales - no longer? Why is that? Are the epics of the Russian North about the Kiev heroes also a fiction?
            2. paul3390
              paul3390 April 25 2021 13: 55
              +1
              The chronicle legend about the vocation of the Varangians turns out to be completely consonant with what was written in the 19th century by the Mecklenburg scholar Johann Friedrich Chemnitz. He cited a legend according to which Rurik and his brothers came from the southern coast of the Baltic and were the sons of Prince Godlav (Godlib or Godelayba) .808 This dynasty was associated with the city of Rerik, destroyed by the Danes in 1418. Chemnitz relied on data from an older manuscript from XNUMX from the Schwerin archives, which has not survived to this day. At the same time, it is important that both Chemnitz and his predecessor, the author of the Schwerin document, could hardly have used information from the Russian chronicles, which became known in Germany only in the first half of the XNUMXth century thanks to the translations of Gerard Friedrich Miller.

              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master April 25 2021 15: 20
                +2
                Honestly, I'm tired of repeating the same thing from year to year, refuting the same arguments. First I wrote in the comments. Then I wrote a series of articles about Rurik and about the falcon, about linguistics, and about genetics.
                But for some, at least a stake on their heads. Indeed, it is not the one who does not read books that is terrible, but the one who has read only one.
                Now I will only say one thing: regs are not a self-name, but an exonym. So Germans called the Slavs living in swampy areas, from the German word "reed". Hence the name of the city. And about this in one of my articles was, and more recently.
                Sources can be interpreted this way and that, which is what people smarter than you and me did right up to the middle of the last century. But with the development of archeology and genetics, the debate in science on this topic stopped. Archeology unequivocally tells us that the Scandinavians in Russia were and were precisely in the role of warriors-vigilantes and their leaders, genetics says that the descendants of Rurik have N1 with a marker that arose one and a half thousand years ago in the area of ​​Old Uppsala.
                Calm down and don't shake the air. Accept the idea that the Scandinavians, along with the Slavs and Finno-Ugrians and even the Balts, are the same full participants in the construction of the ancient Russian state, who had their own role in this process.
                1. paul3390
                  paul3390 April 25 2021 15: 33
                  +1
                  Delirium of a numb Norman. Even commenting on such nonsense is lazy. He has reeds ..
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master April 25 2021 15: 41
                    +6
                    Quote: paul3390
                    He has a reed

                    Exactly. At least you seem to remember that, and I did not expect more.
                    Röhricht is still German for "reed". smile
                    However, if it is more pleasant for you to realize that the Rurik was a Pole than that he was a Swede or a Dane, then why not? I will not deprive you of this pleasant illusion. laughing
              2. Sergey Sfiedu
                Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 03
                -1
                In the XNUMXth century

                Well, you don't have to comment further. Let's explore the Battle of the Ice from the fantasies of the twentieth century.
      3. Richard
        Richard April 25 2021 15: 41
        +3
        you mean the Wendo-encouraging dynasties - kings and princes (according to F. Chemnitz):


        It's all pretty controversial
        1. Richard
          Richard April 25 2021 15: 49
          +4
          The legend about Gostomysl and the vocation of the Varangians is based on some real, albeit hidden from us by the thickness of time, facts and circumstances.
          Doubts about the existence of Gostomysl were expressed by the majority of Russian historians, starting with Karamzin. The most ancient Russian chronicles do not have this name, and for this reason the legend itself was considered unreliable.
          However, the name Gostomysl is well known to historians from Western European sources. Gostomysl was the name of the leader of the West Slavic tribe of the Wends, who died in 844 in a battle against King Louis II of Germany. This fact is mentioned by the Xanten and Fulda annals. And the very name Gostomysl is completely uncharacteristic for the East Slavic tradition and, on the contrary, is quite organic for the West Slavic.
          Archaeological research shows that in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries in the early Novgorod and Ladoga layers there was undoubtedly the presence of objects and dishes of the West Slavic type. In this regard, a number of scientists - Ovcharev, Azbelev - believe that the appearance of the name Gostomysl in Russian sources is associated with the penetration of the West Slavic element into the lands of Priilmenye. Azbelev generally considers a likely version that the leader of the Wends, Gostomysl, was not killed, but was able to flee to the East Slavic lands and entered the Novgorod epic as the founder of a dynasty that came from across the sea. Academician Rybakov deciphered the name of Gostomysl in this way: "guest + think", that is, a person who thinks like guests, strangers, calling on the Varangians to rule
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 25 2021 19: 04
            0
            Greetings, Dmitry.
            The existence of Gostomysl, as well as the impossibility of such to prove or disprove, is impossible, just as it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of aliens.
            He could exist. Rather, at that time in Ladoga or somewhere else nearby there could have been a person with such a name who could have a certain influence on his fellow tribesmen. Could this man have had a daughter and could she marry a foreigner? If Gostomysl himself could exist, then there could be a married daughter. Could her husband or son bear the name Rurik? Why not? In theory, it's easy. Could this particular Rurik become the founder of the dynasty? Easily! I will ask more: could it be that Rorik Friesland's mother's name was Umila Gostomyslovna? And I will answer: yes, like two fingers on the asphalt! smile
            Another thing is important: whoever was the founder of this dynasty, his roots came from Sweden, and his associates were carriers of the Scandinavian culture.
            The rest is fantasy for historical novels.
          2. Sergey Sfiedu
            Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 10
            0
            Archaeological research shows that in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries in the early Novgorod and Ladoga layers there was undoubtedly the presence of objects and dishes of the West Slavic type.

            I talked with a couple of seemingly knowledgeable people (or posing as such) at some forum - they said that this was a delusion from the times of Sedov's grandfather, the West Slavic presence in Novgorod was supposedly greatly exaggerated. For what I bought, for what I sell.
      4. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 20: 56
        0
        The authenticity of the Novgorod chronicles, and even more so the details about Rurik's inheritance of the throne of Gostomysl as a result of his marriage to Umil, are more than doubtful.
        As for the state - the same be careful, I think you should be. The proto-state of the Ilmenian Slovenes was, without a doubt. And it became a state when it had a dynasty of rulers, a permanent army, an administrative apparatus - there is a vast field for fantasies about the date.
    2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 25 2021 11: 52
      +6
      Quote: Arkon
      Russia "as a territory did not exist until the moment when the" Rus "acquired statehood

      Yes, the profane always make the same mistake - they endow the tribal unions with a kind of statehood. At the same time, they do not avoid their favorite pastime - to stick to the place and out of place ethnonyms, the origin of which is controversial and is the subject of discussions of professional historians, among whom is the author of this essay. And if any Ukrainian joins the discussion with his own truth, then turn off the light altogether ...
  • paul3390
    paul3390 April 25 2021 08: 20
    +5
    In the chronicles, a Rus or Rusyn is always a resident of the Kiev region.

    The son of Ivan the Terrible, Ivan Ivanovich, signed with the phrase: "sinful Ivan, from the Varangian tribe, a native of Rusin"
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. April 25 2021 08: 48
    +1
    Quote: silverura
    From ur. Alexandra Paliya.

    Yes, we know, we know, the ukrodomoroshenny Yushchenko's "historian" is trying to somehow substantiate the existence of the so-called. "Ukraine", as "state", which was not and is not from the word NEVER, but was and is the DESIGNATION of the territory, i.e. THE BORDERS OF THE STATE RUS ...
    1. sevryuk
      sevryuk April 25 2021 10: 59
      +1
      ... but it was and is the DESIGNATION of the territory i.e. THE BORDERS OF THE STATE RUS ...


      Actually, Polish-Lithuanian. Moscow kingdom - Sloboda Ukraine.
  • Anatoly Anatoly
    Anatoly Anatoly April 25 2021 09: 52
    +3
    Quote: silverura
    Russian scientist Robinson

    Doesn’t it bother you?
  • Alexy
    Alexy April 25 2021 10: 34
    0
    Well, the same ancient Ukrainian scribbled - tired of reading this nonsense. There are plenty of pseudo-historians in the ruin.
  • pytar
    pytar April 25 2021 11: 22
    +6
    Dear Mityan hi , as I understood the original Rus was precisely Kievan Rus, which laid the foundation for the state formation of the Eastern Slavs and became the place of the formation of the Russian ethnos? Subsequently, Muscovy appeared, on the basis of the further settlement of the Slavic tribes and the migration from the Finno-Ugric to the East and North. Since Kievan Rus disintegrated, its territory for a long time became a place of instability, a transitional courtyard. At the same time, Muscovy took the path of imperialism, adopting the ideology of the "Third Rome"! According to the mayor, the expansion of Muscovy, which became the Russian kingdom, the territory of Kievan Rus, turned out to be geographically to it - the outskirts, respectively, the local Slavic population was later called Ukrainians. On this basis, in later times, Ukrainians were formed and the modern Ukrainian people.
    Who has the more right to call himself the successor, heir of Kievan Rus - Russia or Ukraine, is a very controversial topic. For me, modern country wallpapers have some basis, but none has monopoly rights over the cultural and historical heritage of Kievan Rus. Politicians use this uncertainty to ignite conflict. Modern Ukraine and Russia wallpapers are a continuation of Kievan Rus, but they are different! In short - Kievan Rus is one thing, Russia is another, and Ukraine is the third, they have causal relationships and common cultural and historical elements, as well as significant differences! hi Something like the legacy of the Frankish Empire.
    1. silverura
      silverura April 25 2021 11: 38
      -2
      Russia is different, and Ukraine is the third, they have causal relationships and common cultural and historical elements, as well as significant differences

      Finally! drinks
      You are a plus!
      1. pytar
        pytar April 25 2021 11: 43
        +4
        Finally! drinks You are a plus!

        Thank you! I have a plus, the fact that I am not Russian and not Ukrainian, therefore unencumbered from political disputes on these topics, and therefore more obyktivny! From the outside, some things are seen clearer! hi He praised himself! drinks
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2021 16: 43
          +4
          Quote: pytar
          Thank you! I have a plus, the fact that I am not Russian and not Ukrainian, therefore unencumbered with political disputes on these topics, and therefore more obyktivny!


          Hello Peter.
          It is surprising that you did not read this from the Author. To understand the problematic of the question, one must realize the error user / silverura /.
          Firstly, "Kievan Rus" is not a state, but a temporary period of the conditional existence of Old Russian education, which included not only the ancestors of Ukrainians and Russians, but also Belarusians. By the way, it was home to many peoples from Torks to Chudi, from Muroma to Vesi. That is, initially, contrary to the opinion of my counterpart, it was multinational. Many questions still do not have clear answers. For example, the Vikings argue, we forget about another characters of the Russian Truth - kobyaks.
          But back to our rams.
          Based on formal logic, the following chain of theses can be derived.
          First, Staraya Ladoga and the Novgorod land (Ilmen Slovenes) became part of Russia. A generation later, a glade is included in Rus, whose city Kiev becomes the capital of the proto-state (according to another, this event gives the point of account of the emergence of the state) of Rus. After a century and a half, Russia is growing with land on which Moscow will later appear. Half a century after the events described above and after the death of Vladimir Monomakh's son, the apogee of feudal fragmentation comes. First, Kiev loses its primary role, and then is relegated to a secondary city. By the way, he was smashed at least three times by the Volyn and Vladimir princes. Before the invasion of the Tatar-Mongols, his status is insignificant, the new centers do not reckon with him. But that's not the point. The main thing is different. The lands of Kiev and Moscow go into the political orbit of the Empire of Genghis Khan, later the Golden Horde. Further Kiev does not act as a sovereign subject in the political game. Moscow, on the contrary, is gaining momentum and eventually, three centuries later, includes Kiev with its lands. In fact, he buys it, at the cost of war, internal church schism and gold. Further up to the events of 1991 Kiev is a part of Russia.
          Output. We are all, without exception, descendants and heirs of the Old Russian state. Everything else is from the evil one.
          Good day, Peter.
          1. pytar
            pytar April 25 2021 21: 25
            +2
            Hello Vladislav! hi I carefully read your post, as well as Mityan's post. And I came to the following opinion - you repeat my general conclusion:
            Modern Ukraine and Russia wallpapers are a continuation of Kievan Rus, but they are different! In short - Kievan Rus is one thing, Russia is another, and Ukraine is the third, they have causal relationships and common cultural and historical elements, as well as significant differences! I will also add Belarus. yes
            It's just that you Vladislav put more emphasis on the general, and Mityan on the differences. Everything can be interpreted in different ways - in fact, 3 separate, but closely related nations have now formed! I repeat once again, politicians speculate on the topic, pursuing their own selfish goals.
  • Free wind
    Free wind April 25 2021 06: 50
    +1
    Maybe we don't need to continue?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich April 25 2021 07: 08
    +1
    there were scattered tribes, then the union of tribes, then the Russian state, the history of which is shown by the monument "Millennium of Russia".
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 April 25 2021 08: 03
      -11%
      Quote: Olgovich
      ... whose history is shown by the monument "Millennium of Russia".

      There is no Ivan the Terrible on this monument ... The monument itself is a monument to the invaders of Russia.

      Scattered tribes, a union of tribes - this is a story many hundreds of thousands of years ago. After the great war, which, according to the Byzantine chronology, took place 7529 years ago and the resulting global catastrophe described in the Bible as the "World Flood", many peoples ran wild, but the elite of the "West", "East" and "Russia" survived. New states, new civilizations began to form around them, but the thirst for revenge remained ... The confrontation continues.

      To perceive the history of the World from the "Nativity of Christ" is a big mistake.
      It all started much earlier.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 25 2021 12: 20
        +2
        Quote: Boris55
        It all started much earlier.

        Of course earlier. Cain rebelled against Abel and killed him! One less Slav!
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich April 25 2021 12: 32
        +3
        Quote: Boris55
        There is no Ivan the Terrible on this monument ... The monument itself is a monument to the invaders of Russia.

        there are many who are not there.

        But many Yes-and this is a visual history of Russia
        Quote: Boris55
        many hundreds of thousands of years ago.

        pierced the thickness many hundred thousand years? hi
        Quote: Boris55
        To perceive the history of the World from the "Nativity of Christ" is a big mistake.
        It all started much earlier.

        I am aware: the universe originated 13,799 ± 0,021 billion years ago hi
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2021 16: 11
          +1
          Quote: Olgovich
          I am aware: the universe originated 13,799 ± 0,021 billion years ago

          Yes, lying fy fse !!!
          The first was the cat wrote the cat !!! The only controversial question is which of these three !!!? laughing


          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri April 25 2021 20: 00
            +1
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Yes, lying fy fse !!!
            The first was the cat wrote the cat !!! The only controversial question is which of these three !!!?

            Third, of course! His name is Brahman, and all of us, together with our Universe, will simply appear for him.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2021 20: 13
              +1
              Quote: HanTengri
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Yes, lying fy fse !!!
              The first was the cat wrote the cat !!! The only controversial question is which of these three !!!?

              Third, of course! His name is Brahman, and all of us, together with our Universe, will simply appear for him.

              Yes, the cat's third dream, between dreams of a jar of whiskas and a jar of sour cream! laughing
              Regards, Kote!
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri April 26 2021 21: 44
                +1
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Yes, the cat's third dream, between dreams of a jar of whiskas and a jar of sour cream!
                Regards, Kote!

                Well, between what else, a wise cat should dream of this whole Universe, together with a bald monkey, who imagines himself the king of nature! laughing
      3. Obliterator
        Obliterator April 25 2021 14: 50
        +2
        Quote: Boris55
        To perceive the history of the World from the "Nativity of Christ" is a big mistake.

        As well as to believe seriously in the biblical story of the global flood.
      4. Richard
        Richard April 26 2021 23: 37
        +3
        There is no Ivan the Terrible on this monument "Millennium of Russia" ...

        Not only. There are no tsars Boris Godunov and Vasily Shuisky. Of the emperors and empresses, Alexander II considered Catherine I, Peter II, Anna Ioannovna, Elizaveta Petrovna, Peter III and Paul I not deserving of good memory.
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 25 2021 07: 25
    +6
    Thanks to the author, I look forward to continuing
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 09: 15
      +8
      Good afternoon!
      will hi
      1. parusnik
        parusnik April 25 2021 09: 18
        +4
        Thank you, everything is clearly stated by you. But in some comments, water flowed through the pipes. hiArcheological data are of little interest to anyone.
        1. Doctor
          Doctor April 25 2021 10: 06
          +2
          Archeological data are of little interest to anyone.

          And this is the main thing.

          The alleged grave of Rurik - Shum-Gora, Novgorod region.

      2. silverura
        silverura April 25 2021 12: 52
        -6
        Good afternoon, Eduard Vaschenko!
        will

        I tightened your rating a little for the "rope" theme, thanks! good
        Carry on,
  • Deniska999
    Deniska999 April 25 2021 07: 34
    +2
    The Finns, and their neighbors in general, have preserved very interesting and ancient names for modern countries and peoples, including Russians and Russia:

    Venäläinen, Veneman, Venäjä in Finnish, Venelane, Venemaa, Vene in Estonian; "Veneä" - in Karelian. That is, the Wends.

    But among the Baltic Latvians, Russia is still called "Krievija", that is, the country of the Krivichi.
    1. Deniska999
      Deniska999 April 25 2021 07: 40
      -1
      And another opinion: “So, well, since we have China" for a newbie, "then with Northern Eurasia, conspiracy theorists are gradually developing some general idea of ​​its history. What is it like?

      So, the settlement by "Europeans" (Slavs from the territory of modern Poland plus or minus and part of the Baltic states) of the Western Dvina and Dnieper basin began somewhere 800-1200 years ago (perhaps the right bank of the upper Dnieper was populated earlier - see Zarubinets culture). Here they absorbed or partially destroyed the small Baltic and Finno-Ugric tribes, and then in several waves entered the basin of the Oka and Volga in the XII-XIII centuries. Where they quickly dealt with the relatively few carriers of the Dyakovo and Gorodets cultures, that is, with the Eastern Balts and Finno-Ugrians.

      However, it is not worth shedding tears of crocodiles over the Finno-Ugrians "tortured" by the Slavs, because the Finno-Ugric and Balts themselves have also fiercely dealt with the Iranian-speaking (as it is supposed) cattle-breeders-carriers of the Fatyanovo and Abashev cultures (from the Dnieper to the Volga). Beyond the Volga, where Slavic colonization stopped for 200-250 years (up to the 1248th century), at least the Finno-Ugrians survived. The same applies to the Balts, who in the form of Krivichi (a mixture with the Slavs) existed until the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries in the space from modern Western Belarus to the upper Volga and the Pskov region, inclusively, and the Baltic tribe Golyad in the Western Moscow region - until the end of the XNUMXth century (in the battle with the goliad on Protva, according to the chronicles, by the way, in XNUMX Mikhail Hororite, brother of Alexander Nevsky, died)

      All this does not contradict the officialdom, except that the date of settlement of the same Volga-Osk interfluve, I take not the 1984th-XNUMXth centuries, but several hundred years later. Whoever is curious, let him look at the official dates of the "foundation" of cities in the Volga-Oka interfluve. And so, in general, even in the classical officialdom, it is believed, for example, that the Radimichi and Vyatichi came from Poland (as in the annals), but the Polyan tribes in the Dnieper region are tracing papers from the Polyany tribes near Gniezno in Poland. In general, all this is remarkable except for one simple and logical conclusion: no Kievan Rus existed either as a "state" or as a "federation", just as there was no "feudal fragmentation" (due to the absence of feudal lords). Actually, the last conclusion was made at the end of the Soviet era, and research and statistical analysis of the remarkable scientist-archaeologist Andrei Kuza (killed in XNUMX) proved this.

      In a nutshell: Kuza was the first and the last in Eurasian archeology / history to have guessed to bring all the data on the "Old Russian" (and not only) monuments (fortified settlements and settlements) into a single database and put them on the map, adding data in the attached files about the results excavations. "
      1. Konnick
        Konnick April 25 2021 07: 48
        +1
        So, the settlement by "Europeans" (Slavs from the territory of modern Poland plus or minus and part of the Baltic states) of the Western Dvina and Dnieper basin began somewhere 800-1200 years ago (perhaps the right bank of the upper Dnieper was populated earlier - see Zarubinets culture).

        Where is this from?
        The expansion of the Slavs came from the east and much earlier. True, then they were not called Slavs.
      2. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 15
        0
        Slavs from the territory of modern Poland

        There are certain doubts about the fact that the ancestral home of the Slavs was a German-Celtic reserve on the territory of modern Poland.
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 April 25 2021 07: 59
      +6
      I will agree with you that the closer the ties between neighboring tribes and the "Russians" are, the less we see the name "Russians" in their languages. Finns, Estonians, Korel have the root "ve" in the designation "Russian". I dare to draw a parallel with the word "brother" veli, vend, velli.
    3. Konnick
      Konnick April 25 2021 08: 42
      -1
      Venäläinen, Veneman, Venäjä in Finnish, Venelane, Venemaa, Vene in Estonian; "Veneä" - in Karelian. That is, the Wends.

      Thank you for reminding me of VENICE right away. The oldest Rialto bridge stands on 12 thousand piles. It is now made of stone, but it was originally built of wood. And the piles of the bridge, as in all of Venice, are made of Permian Karagai, larch. In the Urals, larch grows especially dense, it cannot be floated down the river, it sinks, by the way, and this quality, along with resistance to decay, caused the first Venetian builders, VENETS, to choose these larch logs for piles already in the 6th century. How did they know about its wonderful properties? How did they transport it? Did your relatives from the northwest help? Some questions. If someone says larch also grows in the Alps, then I will send him to Google to search for the characteristics of these trees. Alpine is twice lighter than Siberian and rots.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 25 2021 11: 11
        +6
        Not twice. Slightly less dense. And the one that grows in Dolmatia is also suitable for piles.

        Better tell me, how do you imagine this transportation of Perm loaves?
        Routes, transport.
        And most importantly, what was in the Perm region at that time.

        Perm ethnographers put forward a beautiful version for them. It remains to coordinate with the rest of the world.
        1. Konnick
          Konnick April 25 2021 11: 55
          0
          Perm ethnographers put forward a beautiful version for them. It remains to coordinate with the rest of the world.

          I asked to contact Google. Give examples of the comparative resilience of the Siberian and European. You think Venice would stand on European larch.
          As for the "loaves" I myself do not know, from the Kama to get to the Mediterranean Sea is difficult. And the version about the Ural origin was put forward by the Venetians themselves, at least I was told so in Venice.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 25 2021 11: 58
            +5
            I know. And the piles are not only larch, but also made of oak and elm.
            European larch is also suitable for piles. Not a bit worse than Siberian larch.
          2. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 25 2021 13: 15
            +3
            The density of different types of larch can vary depending on the place of growth from 560 to 680 kg / m3.
      2. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 17
        -1
        The first Venetian builders, VENETS, were chosen already in the 6th century

        What are the Veneti in Venice in the XNUMXth century AD? Fear God!
        1. Konnick
          Konnick April 27 2021 03: 25
          0
          What are the Veneti in Venice in the XNUMXth century AD? Fear God

          I'm not afraid of God ... what kind of veins? Those who lived there and live there. If Rome conquered the land of the Venets, this does not mean that he killed them all. But Attila, they got scared and began to settle in the lagoon, on the islands. Even now, Venice is trying to become autonomous from all of Italy, and the indigenous people consider themselves Veneti and speak the autochonian language, not all, but many.

          You go to God and do not interfere with drinking Prosecco ... by the way, the name is from the Slavic word, this is what remains after cutting down the larch drinks
  • samarin1969
    samarin1969 April 25 2021 07: 38
    +5
    I haven’t read about wagrs in such detail. An interesting version. But about the "nomadic" Khazars and the weakness of trade routes - very controversial. After all, the flow of slaves and furs had to have a counter flow of silver. The topic has really occupied the minds of more than one century. From the school bench, the feeling of the understatement of the history of Russia did not leave. On the one hand, there are unnamed forest farmers, on the other, a powerful layer of folk culture that has subdued dozens of neighboring peoples. History abhors a vacuum. Rather, the Eastern Slavs were unlucky with their "Snorri Sturulsons". Christians today are also arrogant and jealous of rivals in faith.
    1. Konnick
      Konnick April 25 2021 08: 01
      +3
      ... On the one hand, there are unnamed forest farmers, on the other, a powerful layer of folk culture that has subdued dozens of neighboring peoples.

      A well-noticed contradiction.
      Yes, we were not stooped farmers in white shirts, now Russia is a zone of risky agriculture, and then even more so, paleoclimatologists are in your favor. They were mainly engaged in hunting, the richness of the forests allowed them to do this, respectively, they traded in the gifts of the forest and made "travels" because of their natural curiosity to distant countries, well, they followed the state of the highways from the Varangians to the Greeks. Everything was very mixed. And they lived mainly along large navigable rivers. And the bread was bargained for from the southern neighbors, Byzantium and others.
    2. paul3390
      paul3390 April 25 2021 09: 11
      +8
      Rather, the Eastern Slavs were unlucky with their "Snorri Sturulsons"

      Most likely, we were unlucky with Christianization, in which any pagan documents were thoroughly cleaned out .. As for writing, our ancestors for centuries have traded furs and grain with the Greek Black Sea colonies. And it would be very strange if they did not adopt such an important thing in trade as writing. Well, were they absolutely stupid?

      In addition, the literacy level in early Novgorod, judging by the birch bark finds, was simply off scale. Apparently, the broadest strata of the population were able to write, for the content of the letters is quite everyday. Almost up to date. Such a feeling - almost every second person was literate. Then the question is - HOW could it have reached such a level, allegedly in 100-200 years from the invention of the Cyrillic alphabet, in the absence of an education system at that time ?? And compare this with the polls-densely-illiterate Europe .. Where the kings, then - and even then they did not know how to read. Obviously, miracles do not happen, and the written tradition began long before the adoption of Christianity .. It's just that the church fathers diligently destroyed all sources of pagan times, trying to prove that they alone brought the light of knowledge to the Papuans .. And before them, our ancestors were all sitting on palms clinging tails ..
      1. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 25
        +1
        What kind of our ancestors did they trade with grain with the Greek Black Sea colonies? There is no reliable information about this. In Europe, paganism was fought harder than ours, and the same handwritten Bibles, there are no runes, and they slip through. In some places, the runic writing has survived almost to modern times. In Russia, alas, there is nothing similar at all - so there is no need to talk about universal pre-Cyrillic literacy. There were some "features and cuts", as Chernorizets the Brave wrote, and what it was - prescription or something more - one can only guess.
  • Nazar
    Nazar April 25 2021 07: 45
    +2
    The existence of Rurik, as it were, is not a fact. In the article it is modestly written: "Some researchers for various reasons question the existence of Rurik, or his existence in this form, however, like Oleg, which for our presentation does not really matter." everything fellow
    Exclusively my opinion (I do not pretend to be 100% true) - if we assume that the Norman was “summoned” after all, then rather not from Scandinavia (there is nothing about this in their records), the Norman could be “their own”, Kievsky. Since there is clear evidence that the Norman Kaganate existed in Kiev before Rurik.
    Records of the existence of this kaganate first appear in 839 during the reign of the Frankish king Louis I, there is also about that kaganate in a letter from Louis II to the Byzantine emperor Basil I and there are records of Arab sources about the same. So the hypothetical Rurik could well have been not an alien Norman, but quite local, "home-grown" and that is why there is nothing about him in the records of the Scandinavians, neither in the "younger edda" or in the "circle of life".
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 25 2021 07: 51
    +4
    Oak still lives longer than ash. Therefore, when choosing a place of sacrifice, the old oak tree is difficult to find a suitable alternative.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 April 25 2021 09: 14
      +5
      Yes - but the Scandinavian Yggdrasil, whatever one may say, is still ash. Oak as the World Tree is purely Slavic ..
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 25 2021 09: 17
        +5
        Of course, the ash trees are tall and glorious.
        But Zeus also had an oak tree (remember Dodona's grove).

        As expected, Zeus - oak, Poseidon - Ash.
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 April 25 2021 09: 23
          +4
          Yes, but we are talking about much later times ..
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 25 2021 11: 01
            +3
            So I thought about the climate at that time and the border between the coniferous-deciduous taiga zone.

            But the southern part of Scandinavia, and along the valleys, was still good for the growth of ash.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 25 2021 15: 53
              +1
              The beginning of the medieval climatic optimum. In general, everything is very complicated with Scandinavia.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 April 25 2021 17: 06
                +2
                That's just it, that there are a lot of details. And not all of them are well represented.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 25 2021 17: 24
                  +2
                  Regarding Scandinavia, I have no idea at all. Throughout Europe, "dark ages", as a consequence of the late antique MLP, and in Scandinavia - the flourishing of the Wendel culture! How's that ???
  • Arkon
    Arkon April 25 2021 07: 52
    +3
    "Secondly, the Scandinavians who came, very quickly forgot their language."

    Rurik and his squad were Russian (Slavic) pagan. We are not talking about any "Scandinavian" language.
    1. Nazar
      Nazar April 25 2021 08: 01
      -1
      Arkon - Good afternoon! Today I completely agree with you (+) yes
    2. paul3390
      paul3390 April 25 2021 08: 55
      +2
      "Secondly, the Scandinavians who came, very quickly forgot their language."

      There is a gorgeous work by Lovmyansky "Russia and the Normans". Where he compares the number of toponyms in the places where the Scandinavians lived at the stop, in Danlo and Normandy, and in Russia. And also - the number of borrowed words. And it clearly shows that in Russia there are practically no such. And in fact - if Rurik was a Scandinavian, where are the numerous settlements in Bu and Ville, which are strewn with England and Normandy? Where is at least one Olafov or is there Bjornovka? Or something like that? Where are the ship terms, names of weapons, positions? There is nothing like this in the Russian language! Although the very fact of the presence of hired Scandinavians is beyond doubt. This means that they were just mercenaries, and did not constitute the ruling class, and even more so, there was no Scandinavian colonization of northern Russia.
      1. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 37
        +1
        This means that they were just mercenaries, and did not constitute the ruling class.

        Yeah. In the proto-state? Mercenaries? Haven't you gotten anything wrong? Where have you seen mercenaries in proto-states? There were fools waving an ax and among the Slavs in bulk, moreover, just for grub and part of the booty, why look for mercenaries, who have to pay something (and in proto-states and even early states with cash - it's just a disaster). And that, and look, the head of the employer will be chopped off. As for Danlo and Normandy - it's certainly great - only the Normans lived there alone. All alone. The locals were killed or turned into slaves. In Prilmenye (not to mention middle Russia) the Normans have never even been in the majority.
    3. Hantengri
      Hantengri April 25 2021 09: 38
      +2
      Quote: Arkon
      "Secondly, the Scandinavians who came, very quickly forgot their language."

      Rurik and his squad were Russian (Slavic) pagan. We are not talking about any "Scandinavian" language.

      What a categorical statement! lol Do you really want to believe this, or do you have irrefutable evidence, such iron facts, upon learning about which the anti-Normanis will sing hosanna to you, and the Normanists, having sprinkled ashes on their heads, will be killed up the wall?
      1. Arkon
        Arkon April 25 2021 14: 18
        0
        Do you really want to believe this, or do you have irrefutable evidence, such iron facts, upon learning about which the anti-Normanis will sing hosanna to you, and the Normanists, having sprinkled ashes on their heads, will be killed up the wall?


        “... In summer 6370 ... going across the sea to the Varangian, to Russia. Sice bo ti zvakhusya varazi rus, like se (variance: in the Trinity list. - these)

        "... And the Slovenian language and Ruskyi are one from the Varangians, they called themselves Rus, and the first is mad Slovene; if the glade is called, but Slovenian speech is not. By the fields, the nicknames were in poly gray, and the Slovenian language is the same ..."

        © Chronicle on the Laurentian list, ed. Archaeographic Commission, St. Petersburg, 1872).


        Yes, all "Normanists" have known everything for a long time. Do you really think it's about evidence? How are Petrov and Boshirov doing there?
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri April 26 2021 22: 08
          -1
          Quote: Arkon
          Yes, all "Normanists" have known everything for a long time.

          I am absolutely sure of this. As well as the fact that they take into account somewhat more than an amateur who has read a couple of quotations from the annals.
          Quote: Arkon
          Do you really think it's about evidence?

          It is in them. The thing is that everyone is "pumping" on the indirect, because there are no direct ones. So, I think, we should come to terms with the fact that we will never know for certain who, ethnically, Rurik was, and whether he was at all.
          Quote: Arkon
          How are Petrov and Boshirov doing there?

          Probably good. And where are they here? Do you have information that before these two gave Rurik the "Novice" drink, he, under torture, told them where he was from? wassat
          1. Arkon
            Arkon April 27 2021 07: 25
            0
            Quote: HanTengri
            I am absolutely sure of this. As well as the fact that they take into account somewhat more than an amateur who has read a couple of quotations from the annals.


            It is possible to draw completely erroneous conclusions on any data set. As well as the other is true - you can build a correct picture based on a few facts literally. Newton - conditionally - only had an apple.

            Vaughn, Stratfor or American Rand - what little information do they have about Russia? And read what nonsense they write. wink
  • ee2100
    ee2100 April 25 2021 08: 15
    0
    After the first article, the author posted a video on the site "Where did Rurik come from" (17.04.21). In the studio, the Norman theory was discussed by Anatoly Klyosov and German Artamonov.
    Klesov did not say anything new, but one thing made me happy that Herman Artamonov, a historian and professor, actually went over to the side of the supporters of DNA geneology.
    And this means that it will soon be possible to expect news from Klesov and his team.
  • Arkon
    Arkon April 25 2021 08: 17
    -3
    It is strange that the author knows nothing about the chronicle of Pseudo Simeon (10th century):

    The Chronicle of Pseudo-Simeon is a work by an anonymous Byzantine author (which is a compilation of other authors).

    Here is a fragment of this chronicle, which sets out the version of the origin of the name "Ros":

    'Ρώς δέ oí και Δρομΐται φερώνυμοι από ρως τίνος σφοδρού διαδραμόντες άπηχήματατών χρησαιθιθινων εχτοθςκηα Δρομΐται δε από του οξέως τρέχειν αυτοΐς προσεγένετο. Έκ γένους δέ Φράγγων καθίστανται.

    As philologists testify, this fragment is "spoiled and difficult to understand." The expression από 'Ρως τίνος σφοδροδ is usually interpreted in such a way that it is a reference to some leader, from whom the people of Ros received their name.
    A. Karpozilos translates this combination as "strong response grew":

    “Ros, also called Dromites. This name that they bear has spread from some strong response of "grows" issued by those who have accepted the divination according to some advice or by divine inspiration and who have become the stewards of this people. The name Dromita was given to them because they run fast. And they come from the Franks family. "



    The Byzantines called all European tribes "Franks". Hence, we can conclude that the "dews" or "russes" are one of the European tribes that got their name from a certain mystical "hail".

    From the same fact that in the PVL there is a direct indication that "the Russian and Slavic languages ​​are one," then the fact is added here that the "Rus" are not only a European tribe, but also a Slavic speaking - such tribes in the lands of the present Eastern Germany was a dime a dozen.

    Proceeding from this, it is very strange that the term "rus" in the minds of some historians remains "incomprehensible".

    For me, everything is so clear.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 09: 14
      +8
      It is strange that the author knows nothing about the chronicle of Pseudo Simeon (10th century BC).

      And if he knows? so 25 years already laughing laughing
      1. Arkon
        Arkon April 25 2021 10: 23
        -3
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        And if he knows? so 25 years already


        Well, that is, is this a deliberate distortion, and not a common lack of facts?
    2. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 43
      0
      Are you praying at the PVL like an icon? The chronicle was written how many centuries after the described events? The authors of it most likely did not even see the Varangians alive and did not hear their speech. And to look for the truth from "Pseudo-Simeon", ignoring other sources, is generally somehow strange.
      1. Arkon
        Arkon April 26 2021 21: 52
        +1
        Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
        Are you praying at the PVL like an icon? The chronicle was written how many centuries after the described events? The authors of it most likely did not even see the Varangians alive and did not hear their speech.


        "Most likely" is an argument. "Hailey Likely" is cooler, of course, but "most likely" will do too.
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 53
          0
          And the whole history of the emergence of Russia is a continuous "most likely". And whoever says otherwise is blatantly lying.
          1. Arkon
            Arkon April 26 2021 21: 55
            +1
            So why did Pseudo-Simeon and PVL not please you then? They are at least, among other things, also logical. From the point of view of ordinary, everyday logic. And from many other points of view, they create a consistent picture.
            1. Sergey Sfiedu
              Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 22: 00
              -1
              The fact that only chronicles created "based on". And it is strange to look only in them for the logic of history, ignoring other sources. They were created according to the logic of the chronicler, and you and I need a true story.
              1. Arkon
                Arkon April 27 2021 07: 30
                +1
                Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                The fact that only chronicles created "based on".


                Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
                And the whole history of the emergence of Russia is a continuous "most likely".


                Well, that is, you say that there are no other sources, they are all the same, but, nevertheless, you criticize the very ones that I have cited. And the author "does not like" them so much that he did not even mention them, although, according to his own statements, he is well aware of them.

                Does nothing bother you in this situation? smile
  • S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich April 25 2021 08: 22
    +4
    The article is quite consistent, but it became the reason for the appearance in the comments of an ukrobred caused by the commentator's inferiority complex.
  • paul3390
    paul3390 April 25 2021 08: 38
    +2
    I asked the translator what she had done, and he said: "She said the first time when they lifted her up - here I see my father and my mother, - and said the second time (time), - here are all my dead relatives sitting, - and said for the third (time), - here I see my master sitting in the garden, and the garden is beautiful, green, and men and youths with him, and here he calls me, so lead me to him " Ibn Fadlan, description of the funeral of a noble Rus ..

    If the Russians are Scandinavians, then forgive me - how to evaluate this passage? The sacrificed slave girl clearly describes Irius. There is nothing even close to Scandinavian here. Where is Odin, Einchiria? Where is Heimdall, Bivrest, etc.? What are the parents of a slave girl doing next to a deceased noble warrior? How can a woman of an unfree state even see the Scandinavian Paradise? What other garden should there be a Valhalla with a roof of golden shields and a banquet hall? Etc..
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 25 2021 12: 34
      -1
      If we assume that the slave being sacrificed is not a Scandinavian (and this is highly logical, in my opinion), then everything falls into place.
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 April 25 2021 13: 15
        0
        And why do they even ask her what she sees? And what makes her a Scandinavian lord in a non-Scandinavian Paradise?
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 25 2021 13: 23
          +2
          Everyone sees paradise differently. You say so, as if what this slave "saw" actually existed.
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 April 25 2021 13: 38
            +2
            Well, of course. And if she was, say, a Muslim, she told me that the gentleman was surrounded by 72 virgins with a cup of sherbet and had already been circumcised? And who, then, is interested in the stories around her? She was supposed to see the master in the right Paradise, and report to those around him about that. That he got to the right place. And that right place is definitely not Valhalla.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master April 25 2021 15: 30
              +3
              She owed nothing to anyone. Even if we have a text translated verbatim, and not adapted, in itself this may not say anything.
              And if there is also "translation difficulties", which also cannot be ruled out, then in general the devil will break his leg.
              How could a slave woman, for example, a Slav or Merianka, know how the Scandinavians imagine paradise?
              Why do you think that the Arab, who wrote these words down for his fellow tribesmen, could not, for example, adapt them and instead of the Scandinavian paradise, from which the Arabs would vomit, paint their own to make it clear that the girl saw something beautiful, and not terrible. The description of "beer, pork and a huge house without rooms, in which thousands of healthy and warlike men are constantly present" will seem more like hell to an Arab.
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 April 25 2021 15: 40
                0
                These are exclusively your inventions. Once again - WHAT IS ANYTHING TO ask a foreign slave what she sees ??? If she, by definition, does not see what the questioners want ?? Well, at least sometimes turn on the logic .. Do not consider your ancestors to be completely idiots ..
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master April 25 2021 15: 44
                  +1
                  Quote: paul3390
                  You shouldn't consider your ancestors completely idiots ..

                  I don't count my ancestors. Perhaps some of his contemporaries. laughing
                  For example, those who, on the basis of the description "the garden is beautiful and green," conclude that we are talking about the funeral of a Slav. laughing
                2. Sergey Sfiedu
                  Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 21: 48
                  0
                  WHAT IS ANYTHING to ask a foreign slave what she sees ???

                  Why not, if she is being sacrificed. Sacred vision, commonplace. Unless Ibn Fadlan made it all up for a catchphrase.
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. April 25 2021 08: 39
    +3
    A very dubious version, and the so-called. "Kiev" at the time of Askold and Dir, as many historians believe, was a Khazar settlement, here the cities of Ladoga and Novgorod are truly the Russian side and it was from there that "Rus" went, which really means "to flow", well, and so on. n. "Kievan Rus", this is not a state, this is the historical period of Rus, when Kiev, for a short time, about 150 years, became the center of princely power, already in the middle of the 11th century, there was practically no central "princely" in Kiev, and Russia did not exist, and Russia consisted of many feudal-fragmented, at war with each other, appanage principalities, which ultimately destroyed it, it was conquered by the Tatar-Mongols, who were much weaker than Russia, by the way, at this time Kiev obeyed the Galicia-Volyn principality and was ruled by the governor of Danila-Galitsky, ...
  • bistrov.
    bistrov. April 25 2021 08: 57
    -1
    Now it doesn't matter, ".... where did the Russian land come from ..." love her ...
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 09: 30
      +9
      Russia is our great power

      Here we all agree, but the only question is: was it or is it?
      And the destruction of our country, in the last 30 years, began precisely with the history and the search for our inferiority.
      How the publications of N.M. Karamzin during Perestroika, a historian of the early 19th century, a monarchist-sentimentalist, had a detrimental effect on the fragile consciousness of yesterday's peasants, who became scientific, technical or humanitarian intelligentsia, it is not necessary to say.
      Here on VO there is now an article about "the struggle for Siberia!" in our days and in our "great power"!
      Alas, battles for history are a hot topic.
      Without an objective analysis of the past, in any field of activity, not only in history, you cannot set goals or resolve any issues.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 25 2021 11: 05
        +3
        Then not only Karamzin. Valishevsky and others were pulled out of the bank.

        And why - there was a certain vacuum in the understanding of the history of the country by the masses, let's say, until the XX century.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer April 25 2021 11: 38
          +2
          How the publications of N.M. Karamzin during Perestroika, a historian of the early 19th century, a monarchist-sentimentalist, had a detrimental effect on the fragile consciousness of yesterday's peasants, who became scientific, technical or humanitarian intelligentsia, it is not necessary to say.

          Then not only Karamzin.

          Gentlemen, what are you talking about? Karamzin is generally a patriot and a full-fledged historian as one could be in the 19th century.
          Soviet historiography did not bother to create anything comparable in completeness and scope, and even written in living language. For the layman, there were no alternatives at all. Soloviev wrote dryly and his history is monstrous in volume. I read Nick Mikhalych as a teenager and I liked it. Its history is positive in Russia. It is still relevant now. Where will the modern reader find the order of inheritance of the Kiev table, learn the vicissitudes of the strife in full?

          Threat article is good. "Smoothed" in terms of readability. There are practically no stylistic "awkwardness" often flickering with the author.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 25 2021 11: 50
            +3
            Sure. Probably the easiest to read is Klyuchevsky. In general, I like his work. SM Solovyov has many interesting details.

            But the overall tonal of the time is strange - and every bast was used for self-deprecation.

            Something stopped by 1995, when the 50th anniversary of the Victory began to be celebrated.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer April 25 2021 12: 04
              +1
              Do not understand. Where exactly does Karamzin have self-abasement?
              If not, what does it have to do with the trend of the 90s? He's just a breath of fresh air - outside of politics and other crap.

              But the overall tonal of the time is strange - and every bast was used for self-deprecation.


              We must say thank you to Soviet historiography. Specifically the historiography of the Second World War. It turned out to be so deceitful that it turned out that it was easier to dismantle it entirely than to look for grains of truth. The Soviet has become synonymous with the false. And absolutely deservedly so. Panfilovites, Kursk Bulge, Sevastopol. Tallinn crossing. Leningrad direction, Finnish war. Misunderstood everything
              The nation lost the Cold War, people have an identity crisis, and now they are stuck in the eyes with blatant examples of lies of official historiography. The discussion on repression has just begun. Self-deprecation will arise by itself.

              It took time and the work of a new wave of historians to rectify the situation and introduce a balanced approach. The extremes were overcome, but the sediment naturally remained.

              It would have been a normal historiography in the Soviet period, it would have been easier, but so we have what we have.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 April 25 2021 13: 11
                +4
                Don't you think that this is an example when a child was thrown out with water?

                Zinoviev said well: "They set their sights on communism - they ended up in Russia."
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer April 25 2021 13: 37
                  -1
                  Don't you think that this is an example when a child was thrown out with water?

                  And what is meant by a child?

                  "Self-deprecation" is an objective process. People got tired of lying and went to the opposite extreme. The readers of the book of the future admirals-commanders grew up and took up Suvorov. Disappointed and took up Bunich, Zefirov, Beshanov, Isaev. Finally, Morozov, Gorbach, Lopukhovsky, Zamulin appeared and everything began to fall into place. But under communism, none of this was simply impossible.

                  So where is the baby?
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 April 25 2021 14: 56
                    +1
                    Under the child - probably the good that is in our country and people.
                    Extreme - definitely.

                    But whether the extreme was chaotic or directional is a question.

                    Suvorov with "Aquarium" and Solzhenitsin were made a kind of standard of the "Empire of Good",
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer April 25 2021 15: 43
                      +1
                      Under the child - probably the good that is in our country and people.

                      My opinion is that you cannot easily deduce the good in people.
                      If an athlete is promoted to killers, a sambo teacher creates an organized criminal group, a tractor driver takes hostages, then these people initially have good problems.
                      But whether the extreme was chaotic or directional is a question.

                      She was natural.
                      Parallel to Suvorov, the country looked about the aliens, listened, God forgive me, the Combination, went into crime and sectarianism.
                      Suvorov turns out to be a completely ordinary phenomenon.

                      Suvorov with "Aquarium" and Solzhenitsin were made a kind of standard of the "Empire of Good",

                      From 94 to 2002 somewhere. And only in hotel circles.
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2021 17: 04
                        +1
                        You will not bring it out. But the emphasis can be shifted.
                        I wonder what happened in 2002?
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer April 25 2021 17: 15
                        +1
                        Nothing specific. The public's interest simply subsided and that's it. Any bestseller has a lifetime.
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 25 2021 17: 19
                        +1
                        That is, a kind of "paradigm" has been released?
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer April 25 2021 17: 23
                        +1
                        There was NO paradigm. There was a trend. Trend is a fashionable phenomenon.
                        It never became an ideology. It didn't even become a manifesto.
                        New time - new problems. Solzhenitsyn and Suvorov are not relevant for everyone, even for "liberals.
                        PS Novodvorskaya, who said in the spirit of "throw everything off the shelves, leave Suvorov" was perceived by everyone as a freak at least since the early 2000s
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov April 26 2021 13: 58
          0
          Quote: Engineer
          We must say thank you to Soviet historiography. Specifically the historiography of the Second World War. It turned out to be so deceitful that it turned out that it was easier to dismantle it entirely than to look for grains of truth. The Soviet has become synonymous with the false.

          It is not false, it is the same as any historiography of the beginning of the study of the problem. It is impossible to study such a phenomenon of a universal scale as the Second World War in a short time and without access to documents. When the archives were opened after the expiration of the statute of limitations (which were closed in all countries), the process of mastering a huge array of materials began, and after 20 years we have already received normal research on the Second World War and there will be more and more of them. And the Soviet historiography of the Second World War has nothing to do with it.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer April 26 2021 14: 46
            -1
            Well, of course. 40 years have passed since the beginning of perestroika. And we didn’t even count the losses of the country at least in the first approximation. How long can you start?
            Europeans and Americans have counted the first three years. Further, they only clarified the details.
            She's just a lie. I have indicated very specific examples, starting with the Panfilovites.
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov April 26 2021 14: 56
              +1
              Quote: Engineer
              Europeans and Americans have counted the first three years.

              Incomparable scales, German losses are also not counted, the issue is acutely debatable.
              And we didn't even count the losses of the country normally, at least in the first approximation.

              Military losses in general have been calculated, after some time when everything will be digitized (I do not know in our lifetime or not) - there will be more accurate numbers, but I think there will be no sensations, the numbers will be slightly adjusted and that's it.
              Civilian casualties can hardly be counted.
              She's just a lie. I have indicated very specific examples, starting with the Panfilovites.

              And what's the lie? The fact that the reporter wrote a report without checking the information?
              False: this is Matrosov - slipped, Gastello - missed, etc. and there was nothing.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer April 26 2021 15: 22
                0
                Oh yes, pro. I suppose they haven't invented historical criticism yet. The lie is that it has been presented for decades as a fact without any attempt to comprehend.
                To start describing the Kursk battle, it was necessary to wait for the opening of the archives. ? Or can he start working at least with German sources, at least at the level of review monographs? At least compare and begin to explain to the reader how difficult it is to reveal the truth.
                It was also difficult to comprehend the Finnish war on the scale that we lied for 50 years about the losses of both sides, stubbornly not noticing the Finnish work on calculating at least their losses?
                I take a picture of Japan in the Hattori war. To prove that in this book, published in the 50s, information about the size of the Kwantung Army was carefully removed and replaced with an insert from the domestic history of the Second World War? Or take my word for it.?

                Or maybe the applications of our submariners were compared with the result?
                The Europeans did this in the first decade. Also from the incomparability of scales?
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov April 26 2021 15: 37
                  +1
                  Oh yes, pro. I suppose they haven't invented historical criticism yet.

                  Invented.
                  Quote: Engineer
                  To start describing the Kursk battle, it was necessary to wait for the opening of the archives. ?

                  That from a scientific point of view - yes, it is necessary.
                  Or can he start working at least with German sources, at least at the level of review monographs?

                  German sources were not available.
                  and what is the truth in German survey monographs?
                  I take a picture of Japan in the Hattori war. To prove that in this book, published in the 50s, information about the size of the Kwantung Army was carefully removed and replaced with an insert from the domestic history of the Second World War? Or take my word for it.?

                  I believe in the word.
                  Or maybe the applications of our submariners were compared with the result?
                  The Europeans did this in the first decade.

                  Well done, and what does it matter? are now being compared.
                2. Engineer
                  Engineer April 26 2021 15: 56
                  0
                  PS
                  Invented.

                  So let them apply and don't lie
                  German sources were not available.

                  I made a special reservation, at least secondary.
                  The Kursk documents captured by the United States were discovered in 1978. How did Soviet historiography react? Seminars, round tables? Requests?
                  The hallmark of normal historiography is the discourse of points of view. For example, Soviet historiography described the point of view of Glantz from 86 years. In which Soviet edition was this reflected?
                  Glantz, David M. (September 1986). "Soviet Defensive Tactics at Kursk, July 1943" (PDF). US Army Command and General Staff College. Ft. Belvoir. Soviet Army Studies

                  Well done, and what does it matter? are now being compared.

                  The key word is now. After the old historiography was thrown into the trash.
                  They are generally great. Especially the Britons. The Yaiks turned out to be so strong that they were not afraid to conduct a bilateral comparison of documents to determine the victories of their best ace and the best ace of the Germans who fought against them. We have room to grow. But it is Soviet historiography that is to blame for such a catastrophic separation.
  • Edward Vashchenko
    April 25 2021 11: 53
    +3
    Threat article is good. "Smoothed" in terms of readability. There are practically no stylistic "awkwardness" often flickering with the author.

    But thank you!
  • Edward Vashchenko
    April 25 2021 12: 20
    +4
    Denis,
    Once again, welcome
    I strongly disagree.
    I would divide the answer into two parts: N.M. Karamzin, as a historian, professional and N.M. Karamzin as a public figure, patriot, specific monarchist.
    From the latter the former flows.
    Yes, he is a patriot, and a monarchist, and a stylist-sentimentalist, you cannot erase words from a song, but he is the dawn of history, in the modern sense of the word. For "our everything", A.S. Pushkin - he is a discovery of history, for modern professionals - he is just a "monument to national thought."
    Yes, he was the first to "discover" a lot in our history, the first to express many guesses and draw many conclusions. Before him, no one had written in detail our history, and yet he ...
    is categorically out of date.
    And in this picture, I repeat, when "NT" and the humanitarian intelligentsia, without exception from villages or children, those who came from the villages, read Karamzin, from the point of view of public consciousness, there was a "shift" or "the roof went off," but I remember how it was during perestroika. I will note that historians naturally did not have this, in relation to Karamzin, who are well acquainted with Russian historiography.
    And he is a patriot, not a patriot, but the views of the early 19th century were transferred to the immature consciousness of the masses, with a village outlook in fact, with all that it implies.
    Of course, by this I do not want to say that Karamzin is “to blame for everything,” there were a lot of other patriots, much more significant, for example, A.I. Solzhenitsyn)))
    But ... from the point of view of researching sources, the term "patriot", how to say it, is not entirely applicable, to put it mildly, and you, with an objective clear view, surprised me in this.
    It's like saying, yes, he is a terrible thief, but a patriot.

    And Karamzin, our first historiographer, but ... his views were criticized already at the beginning of the 19th century, and at the turn of the century the brilliant Pavlov-Selivansky considered his views archaic: each era has its own historians.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 12: 21
      +1
      By the way, in this cycle I will tell about Karamzin in the period of the XIII century, so we will meet with him again ...
    2. Engineer
      Engineer April 25 2021 12: 32
      +1
      Stop.
      1. What exactly did Karamzin do that had such an effect on immature minds?
      2. The conclusions of Karamzin are undoubtedly outdated, but the value for the ordinary reader of the History remains. This is a fairly complete and comprehensive presentation of political history. It is a simple historical outline that is of eternal interest. When Kiev lost its importance, who reigned at the time of the Tatars' advent. Reader of the 80s, 90s. found instantly without any Wikipedia. All chronicle events are set forth. What more could you want?
      3. Soviet historians have created the most complete survey work on the political history of princely Russia for the general reader from Rurik to Grozny? They wrote anything but this.
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        April 25 2021 13: 40
        +3
        Denis, I will answer the points:
        1. According to Karamzin, the whole history is the history of exclusively monarchism. And just what was wrong, what was not taught at school by Marya Ivanovna: this is called the emergence of cognitive dissonance.

        2. Karamzin is the history of the 19th century, it does not in any way correspond to what historical thought has achieved by the time of perestroika in 170 years, especially on the basis of political views: it is possible for the 19th century, but in the 21st century it is somehow even inconvenient to speak.
        PS but if you remember what a "revolution" is, then after 1991 we of course have already rolled back in ideology and economics to the end of the 19th century, the period of reaction and late feudalism, then of course, Karamzin is that. Just kidding)))

        3.Soviet historians
        "Did not write anything, but not this"
        ,
        just look at how Archeology, once the most powerful in the world, has stepped forward.
        No less “stories” were created by Soviet historians. A.E. Persnyakov, lectures on history. I am not a supporter of B.D. Grekov, but his work "Kievan Rus" significantly surpassed Karamzin in the 40-50s of the twentieth century. and looks more serious today.
        And the cycles, for example "Archeology of the USSR". And the popular science, I hold in my hands, History of the USSR with pictures, publishing house "Mysl", 4 editions of 100 thousand each.

        The problem is that science has gone far, and popularization, especially in the 80s of the twentieth century, was poorly engaged, although some popular scientific work by S. A. Pletneva about the Polovtsi was published in 25 thousand copies, and her scientific work " On the Slavic-Khazar borderland. Dmitrievsky archaeological complex "hardly anyone could master, therefore, the circulation of 1700 books.

        I repeat, Karamzin, “our first historiographer” and his presentation of the problem, whether you like it or not, is of the level, as they say now, “went well” to those who just got into urbanization, that's how thinking works.

        And the thinking of the “Soviet people” or its “advanced” part on the eve of perestroika was post-peasant, with faith in “kikimora”, and that “the truth is out there,” which we feel to this day: they believe because it is absurd.

        And science has gone ahead, and somehow, probably, unfortunately, no one betrayed a particular significance to the fact that it is necessary to convey knowledge in an accessible language for the masses.
        This is very bad.
        Yes, this is what gave rise to the emergence of pseudo-theories, starting with L. N. Gumilyov. I am not giving an assessment now, I am giving an example. And then Fomenko and others.
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov April 26 2021 13: 51
    0
    Quote: Engineer
    Soviet historiography did not bother to create anything comparable in completeness and scope, and even written in living language.

    I did not understand the essence of your claims to Soviet historiography.
    It is still relevant now.

    Not relevant, or only as a fact of historiography.
    Where can a modern reader find the order of inheritance of the Kiev table, learn the vicissitudes of strife in full?

    On Wikipedia.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer April 26 2021 14: 53
      0
      After reading Karamzin, the reader will receive a complete picture. Wikipedia does not have integrity in principle.
      Karamzin is a political story. estimates change, new bases are introduced. The description of the events remains. Karamzin has it absolutely sufficient for an ordinary reader.

      Soviet historiography wrote primarily for Soviet historiography. And served the ideology. She practically did not think about the ordinary reader. She also lied like a schoolboy caught smoking. A lot, overwhelmingly, continuously This is the essence of the claims.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov April 26 2021 15: 10
        +2
        Quote: Engineer
        The description of the events remains. Karamzin has it absolutely sufficient for the ordinary reader.

        In this regard, I agree. At least Karamzin is better than the triumph of obscurantism that we are now witnessing.
        Soviet historiography wrote primarily for Soviet historiography. And served the ideology.

        Soviet historiography did everything exclusively from a scientific basis, it is difficult to imagine a more science-intensive historiography, even taking into account the fact that many provisions are really outdated, but this is normal: any science develops.
        Nowadays, there are fewer serious scientific works, the "scientific-pop" of the Soviet period now looks like an academic study.
        I am already silent about the unprecedented scale, for example, of archaeological research, thanks to which we can now seriously rethink our history, and from a scientific standpoint.
        And yes: with the end of Soviet historiography, historical obscurantism began (without science, history began to turn into fantasy). And writing 200-page books explaining the entire history of mankind, which are so popular now, does not take much mind.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer April 26 2021 15: 33
          0
          It's really worth keeping silent about Soviet archeology. We open the archeology of the USSR, edited by Rybakov. Przeworskaya culture is Slavic, and Chernyakhovskaya is also Slavic and comes from it.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 26 2021 15: 42
            -1
            Quote: Engineer
            It's really worth keeping silent about Soviet archeology.

            Not worth it, thanks to this particular archeology, we now know how it was approximately, even if Rybakov and not only Rybakov were wrong.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer April 26 2021 15: 45
              -1
              So he was wrong exactly in the direction that ideology needed

              And the spread in the 90s of all Asovs, Petukhovs is precisely because of the vacuum created by the unwillingness of Soviet historiography to move normal history to the masses
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 26 2021 15: 55
                0
                Quote: Engineer
                So he was wrong exactly in the direction that ideology needed

                I don’t know why Rybakov was wrong (he didn’t hold a candle), but I think more about the same, according to which the characters you mentioned "play their books" and strongly doubt that there was any ideological background to the issue of making the history of the Slavs old.
              2. Engineer
                Engineer April 26 2021 15: 58
                -1
                Did these characters have the status of Rybakov?
                and I strongly doubt that there was any ideological background to the question of the aging of the history of the Slavs.

                How careful you are. Well, don't hesitate. The entire Soviet history was imbued with ideology.
                And the dispute about the Varangians is the best confirmation of this.
                PS I think Mr. Shpakovsky has a story to tell. about Soviet ideology in history.
              3. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 26 2021 16: 12
                +1
                Well, don't hesitate. The entire Soviet history was imbued with ideology.

                Lucky you, once and in one fell swoop everything was decided.
                And the dispute about the Varangians is the best confirmation of this.

                And about the Varangians, even in my first year, I wrote a term paper and despite all the saturation of Soviet history with ideology, no one forbade me to write about the Scandinavians and there was enough literature on this issue and I will say more: over the past 30 years, this issue has not changed nothing at all, however, of course, the data on archeology has increased significantly.
              4. Engineer
                Engineer April 26 2021 16: 29
                -1
                Let's see the history of Klein's question?
                You are probably familiar and have comments.
                Cu de grasse for Soviet historiography (although what mercy is there, this is the bottom)
                This is how the fall of Sevastopol was described in the history of the Second World War volume 5 page 136

                What happened to the heroic garrison? Can you understand?
              5. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 26 2021 16: 51
                +1
                Quote: Engineer
                Let's see the history of Klein's question?

                It is possible with Klein, the historiography of the Varangian question is well known, however in recent years I have hardly followed.
                Quote: Engineer

                What happened to the heroic garrison? Can you understand?

                All defenders of Sevastopol have fulfilled their duty to the Motherland with dignity and honor.
              6. Engineer
                Engineer April 26 2021 17: 38
                -1
                It is possible with Klein, the historiography of the Varangian question is well known, however in recent years I have hardly followed.

                what works prevailed? Which monographs were the most accessible?
                All defenders of Sevastopol have fulfilled their duty to the Motherland with dignity and honor.

                This is a conclusion and must be preceded by facts. At the same time, this is a value judgment that the reader can only make independently without any prompts. If the conclusion is bare and framed in the form of slogans and other slime., Then the reader creeps in a suspicion that they are lying to him ..
                The reader finds Manstein and learns about the final days of Sevastopol
                When they surrendered on July 4, about 30000 people left the area at the extreme tip of the peninsula alone.

                And it is from him that he learns specific information about the last days of the defense.
                And when the archives were finally opened, it became finally clear that Manshane was close to the truth and the number of prisoners was indeed in the tens of thousands.
                It is surprising how the fascist underdevelopment wiped off the nose of the remarkable Soviet historiography?
                Moreover, without having access to the archives. None.
                Do you realize that it was such examples that generated the demand for Hartmans and Ruels and Carius and Mansteins in the 90s and 2000s ??
                Do you want to admit the primacy of ideology when describing the Second World War in the USSR? What were we afraid of?
                It is from there that our inferiority complex originates.
              7. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 26 2021 18: 43
                +1
                Quote: Engineer
                what works prevailed? Which monographs were the most accessible?

                All published monographs were available, they were obligatory sent to all libraries of the country. In any more or less large city (I won't say about very small ones), the Central Library had all the published books, of course it happened that the book was lost, but it rarely happened. Of course, far from everything was handed out, but in the reading room - without problems and any restrictions.
                If a book was absent for some reason in a given city, it could be ordered for a while from the library of another city, for example, from the same Moscow or St. Petersburg, or from any other where it was available. True, I don’t remember now if it was possible for students to do this, but for scientific workers it is definitely possible.
                With pre-revolutionary literature in the provinces, of course, it was much worse: far from everything was available, but if it was, they gave it out.
                In St. Petersburg - in Saltykovka, all the literature of the pre-revolutionary edition was handed out without any problems in the reading room.
                It was more difficult with rare editions, for example, of the 18th century, they were sent here - to the Hall of rare editions (I don't remember exactly what it is called), but as a student I visited it and I was given books of the 18th century. For example, I read the same Schletser or Prince Shcherbatov in an 18th century edition. Of course, they were not allowed into this hall from the street, but this is also objective: the publications are old and rare.
                Yes, not the modern digital world, when I went online and downloaded everything, but there were no problems.
              8. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 26 2021 19: 08
                +1
                Quote: Engineer
                Do you want to admit the primacy of ideology when describing the Second World War in the USSR? What were we afraid of?
                It is from there that our inferiority complex originates.

                You all blame ideology, they say people were deceiving. But I think that those people didn't really want to know the truth. Survivors of the war, even those who had not been to the front, did not want to think or remember about it, and they did not want to know how many died there at Sevastopol or Rzhev or in another meat grinder, they already knew that a lot.
                You and I think differently, we are interested in "tanks and airplanes", and we need to get to the bottom of the truth, because for us this is already history, but for them it was not history.
                I remember that my father-in-law, who survived the war as a child, told me that weapons were lying in heaps in the fields. My eyes lit up: they say I would like to hide a pistol or an automatic, I don’t want to take it. He looked at me and said: no one took the weapon then, everyone threw it away, they could not see it.
                I tried to express my idea how it happened, I hope you understand what I wanted to say.
                I also once thought that the Bolsheviks were hiding some terrible "SECRET", but as it turned out they were not hiding anything, at least nothing special.
              9. Engineer
                Engineer April 26 2021 20: 35
                -2
                I tried to express my idea how it happened, I hope you understand what I wanted to say.

                As far as I could understand, the Soviet historiography about the Second World War was a cast of the crippled consciousness of the military generation with a previously taboo topic of defeats and losses.
                Accordingly, this is
                Soviet historiography did everything exclusively from a scientific basis.

                It does not apply to her at all.
                It turns out that what the Soviet historiography of the Second World War did is an attempt to preserve the memory and display the tragedy of a generation without trying to find the truth. That is, this is not history, but literature.
                Accordingly, all attempts to display, for example, the Rzhev operation are not initially worth these lines.
                .
                The front burned, not abating,
                As on the body of the scar.
                I'm dead and I do not know,
                Is our Rzhev finally?

                For in the Soviet history of the war there is no history proper, and there are no literary merits either.


                All published monographs were available, they were sent to all libraries of the country without fail.

                So what was in the term paper? What prevailed? Normanism or Anti-Normanism?
              10. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 26 2021 20: 58
                +2
                Quote: Engineer
                As far as I could understand, the Soviet historiography about the Second World War was a cast of the crippled consciousness of the military generation with a previously taboo topic of defeats and losses.

                At least in my opinion, this played a significant role.
                So what was in the term paper? What prevailed? Normanism or Anti-Normanism?

                If in these terms - then Normanism
              11. Engineer
                Engineer April 26 2021 21: 03
                0
                If in these terms - then Normanism

                It's interesting, you need to look at the chronology of the release of the main historical works on the topic.
                Gedeonov and Shaskolsky were no longer considered relevant?

                PS Peter was considered a stronghold of the Normanists in modern times. I completely forgot about it
              12. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 26 2021 21: 17
                +1
                Quote: Engineer
                it is interesting, you need to look at the chronology of the release of the main historical works on the topic.
                Gedeonov and Shaskolsky were no longer considered relevant?

                To be honest: I don't remember anymore, 30 years have passed.
                You can, if you wish, raise, but it is better to look at the same Klein, in my opinion, all historiography is given in the 2009 edition. It seems there are still fresh books with historiography on this subject.
  • Slavutich
    Slavutich April 25 2021 09: 01
    +4
    Good article!
    I didn’t know much, I explained all the versions clearly and concisely.
    It is strange that commentators write either about the 12-13th century or archaeological antiquities, but it is specifically about the 9-10th centuries.
    Thanks to the author.
  • sniperino
    sniperino April 25 2021 09: 42
    -1
    Dew. Let's say right away: no people grew up in the Russian chronicle, only Russia is always present in the chronicle.
    The rѹs is always present in the annals. Diphthong -ou- is transformed into both "ros" and "rus" even in the history of the Russian language, not to mention translations.
    Rurik and his brothers came with their kin, with all of Russia to the "rich and abundant" country. We emphasize, with the family, not with the retinue, not with the people, but with the family
    The version of Truvor - "nebrat" (Swedish thru varing - "faithful squad") is not considered.
    As the Arab author Masudi wrote: "The Rus are made up of many peoples of different kinds."
    And this name spread as the name of a superethnos even before the formation of the Russian nation from a conglomerate of "peoples of different kinds."
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 09: 58
      +6
      Good afternoon,
      There are a lot of versions, I have indicated the most relevant, from my point of view.
      This article is popular, it is not intended to list all versions.
      In my monograph, about 20 pages are devoted to theories of the "Khazar" origin of the Varangians, that is, more is devoted to only one small version than this entire article.
      In the generalizing work of V.V. Fomin, the anti-Norman version is devoted to 487 pages, in the work of L.S. Klein, dedicated to Norman theory - 230 pp. hi

      But there is an opportunity to practice in the comments in erudition laughing laughing laughing
      1. sniperino
        sniperino April 25 2021 10: 15
        +5
        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        This article is popular, it is not intended to list all versions.
        In the generalizing work of V.V. Fomin, the anti-Norman version is devoted to 487 pages, in the work of L.S. Klein, dedicated to Norman theory - 230 pp. hi
        hi For me, the defining argument of the anti-Normanists is the impossibility of the Viking king, who has the ancestral right to reign, to abandon the cult of his ancestor Odin (who gave him this right) in order to reign over a foreign people. Such a radical change of identity has become possible quite recently.
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu April 26 2021 22: 14
          0
          Well, in the end, they refused. All became good Christians. It's one thing if the king just sailed from his Scandinavia to rob the locals about furs. And another - if his ancestors have lived here for a couple of centuries. We do not know how many years these Vikings were found among the Slavs. Archaeologists say - very, very long before the events described in the PVL. Well, yes, from time to time they burned and chopped each other, so that later they could live together again, a common thing.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 25 2021 12: 39
      +6
      Quote: sniperino
      The version of Truvor - "nebrat" (Swedish thru varing - "faithful squad") is not considered.

      E.A. Melnikova, Doctor of History and Candidate of Philology, considers such a transformation to be impossible.
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        April 25 2021 13: 44
        +5
        Michael, thanks for the help.
        as I wrote above, all versions cannot be disclosed))))
        1. Richard
          Richard April 25 2021 16: 25
          +6
          Edward, thank you. I read it in one breath
          True, you have not fully met my expectations - while describing such a "slippery" topic, you managed to walk strictly in the middle between "Normanists" and "Slavicists".
          Well? Let's summarize
          Srach in the comments did not work - this is a minus. request
          The article came out just wonderful - this is a plus yes
          Thank you good
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            April 25 2021 20: 43
            +3
            Richard good evening
            like this, you can't always guess laughing laughing
            True, the goal was "not about srach"

            However, when fighters fight for three hundred years, they get tired.
            For me, it's the same dead end, there is no clear clarity, the sources do not give, alas, but much rests on faith.
            thank you for rating good
  • S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich April 25 2021 09: 45
    +5
    It is hardly possible to establish with certainty who Rurik was and whether he was in the north-west of the future Rus at all. The motive for his appearance in the PVL, practically the only surviving source, may be an attempt by the Kiev princes of the 11-12th centuries to substantiate their origin not from wandering mercenaries such as "prophetic Oleg", but along a seemingly "aristocratic" line, i.e. the head of the Rurik clan - his son Igor - and so on.
  • north 2
    north 2 April 25 2021 09: 57
    -1
    The name Kievan Rus' originated in Poland from Polish separatists, and this name was seized for consumption within Russia only in the XNUMXth century by the Kievan historian Maksimovich. Then this term was used by Solovyov, Kostomarov and especially Klyuchevsky. But this was done, unlike the Poles and Maksimovich, not in order to identify Kievan Rus as a separate Slavic state, but to show where at a certain time the most powerful and influential prince ruled, then the Russian lands were not yet united into one state. So were Kievan Rus, Vladimir-Suzdal Rus, Novgorod Rus, Chernigov Rus, Rostov Rus ... Klyuchevsky term Kievan Rus used only to distinguish the old Kievan Rus from the Rus of the New Upper Volga. And the Poles have long dreamed of separating from the Russian lands that territory of the Russian lands in Kiev and around Kiev, in which the most powerful Russian prince ruled at a certain time. Therefore, the Poles began to call these Russian lands Kievan Rus. And the term Kievan Rus began to be used especially widely in history textbooks in the USSR after Khrushchev and his entire Ukrainian-nationalist pack that supported him seized power in the USSR. So the falsity with a special emphasis on Kievan Rus, from the Poles through the Khrushchev region was transformed to present-day Ukraine already in the form of a falsity about the truth of the history of the Russian state, which is slipped to us not only by the enemies of Russia in present-day Ukraine, but also by pseudo liberal historians in the ranks of the fifth column within Of Russia
  • Kozak Za Bugra
    Kozak Za Bugra April 25 2021 10: 25
    +3
    Good afternoon, the article and the indication of the sources are interesting.
    In the comments I met anti-Norman and conflicting opinions.
    Before talking about the formation of statehood, one must understand the context - yes, a state from one person does not form from scratch, before that there should have been a state system in which this person could rule. But we must remember that this was not a state in the present sense, but a feudal formation.
    The idea of ​​a common state with a national idea is not possible in such conditions, the name of Kievan Rus is a later designation of these principalities, which, as it were, were states in themselves and fought, traded and allied with each other.
    In such conditions, when some principalities go to an alliance with each other, they must choose a common prince - this may be one of them as the first among equals or an outsider as a mediator, this is not something out of the ordinary in feudal states. Indeed, in many countries this was done.
    As for the Normans, they have long been present on these lands and the choice of the prince as a mediator between the tribal states is not a strange choice, say, if these states could not agree with each other.
    And these Normans named Rus as representatives of the ruling class could fully give their name to the union of many tribal states with different names.
  • Operator
    Operator April 25 2021 10: 31
    -7
    The Rus are known from the German chronicles of the 6th century A.D. as robbers of merchant ships in the North Sea. Since the 7th century, the Rus are reflected in the Byzantine chronicles as the destroyers of the northern Black Sea region and local Byzantine colonies, as well as in the Arab chronicles as traders in the Volga region. In the middle of the 9th century, the Russians are known from the Arab chronicles as the destroyers of coastal cities in Portugal under the leadership of Askold Dir. In the second half of the 9th century, the Rus are known from the PVL as West Slavic settlers in the Ladoga area and the titular tribe of the state formation of the Eastern Slavs, Rus Land. At the end of the 9th century - the beginning of the tenth century, the Russians are known from the Arab chronicles as the destroyers of the western coast of the Caspian Sea.

    In general: until 862, the Rus are a West Slavic tribe, after 862, the Rus are an East Slavic tribe and other East Slavic tribes, uniting into the Rusich people (the East European version of the Rus name) as the borders of the Rus Land with the capital expand, first in Novgorod, and then in Kiev.
  • Mike_E
    Mike_E April 25 2021 11: 22
    -1
    Considering the question that worries everyone, of course, I wanted to read in more detail on all versions, including the Norman one. As for the association with Rorik of Jutland, it does not coincide in time. He couldn't be in two places at the same time.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 13: 43
      +3
      Avatar could)))
      This is the version that H. Lovmyanskiy paid attention to.
  • kalibr
    kalibr April 25 2021 12: 16
    +4
    Who writes such good articles? Well, of course, Edward!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 13: 43
      +2
      Thank you! Thank you! hi
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master April 25 2021 13: 08
    +5
    The article is interesting and informative, thanks to the author, as always.
    Unfortunately, half of the comments are devoted to ukrosrach, that's what I did not expect - I did not expect that. I thought our Natsiks would come, the Klyosovites were there, and the other three-studios, but here you are.
    Well, okay, a person with one comment provided the article with clicks like no other. smile
    According to the article.
    My main surprise was caused by this part of it:
    The goal of Oleg, a kind of Russian, the militia of the northern tribes and the Varangians who joined them was a campaign for tribute to the south, and not seizing control over waterways - because of their low significance for trade. Which, under the conditions of the tribal system, was practically not implemented and was of an episodic nature.
    The presence of a large number of finds of coins should not mislead us on this score: the coins were neither barter units, nor the equivalent of exchange, but just objects of female jewelry or sacrifices to the gods. An analysis of the placement of treasures shows that there are very few of them on the territory of the Eastern Slavs proper.

    In most, if not all, historical works that I came across, the authors believe strictly the opposite. The Scandinavians went east in the footsteps of eastern silver, establishing their trading posts in key points of the Dnieper and Volga trade routes. And the thesis that coins were not the equivalent of exchange, in my opinion, needs additional argumentation. Of course, the coins were also used as decorations, but their main purpose, as it seems to me (and not only to me), was still the production of calculations.
    Actually, the very fact of the location of the first ancient Russian cities known to us exclusively on large water transport arteries testifies precisely to the importance of trade routes. If this were not the case, cities would be located far from major rivers - simply because it is safer.
    And the discovered treasures do not resemble, in their archaeological context, the consequences of any rituals. In the burials, however, the coins used as decorations were found much less than in the hoards.
    So, I think the author got excited about trade routes and trade. smile
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 25 2021 14: 20
      +5
      that's what I didn’t expect - I didn’t expect that. I thought our Natsiks would come, the Klyosovites were there, and the rest of the three-studio, but here you are.
      So do I. The Sabbat was predictable, but on a different topic.
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 15: 06
      +4
      Michael hi
      So, I think the author got excited about trade routes and trade.

      did not get excited,
      I will definitely answer you point by point.
      I cannot fit into the article "everything, everything, everything", you understand that.
      I will answer later...
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 25 2021 15: 20
        +3
        I would like to participate, because I agree with Mikhail, in the question he asked.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 25 2021 19: 46
          +4
          Anton,
          good evening, could not answer.
          So far "I could not answer", I decided to answer with an article, especially since I have the material, there was even a publication on the topic back in 1998 or 99, so I will try to answer you and Mikhail, I think it will be an interesting topic and discussion.
          Sincerely, Edward
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 25 2021 19: 54
            +3
            Fine! Thank!
            This is a macrohistory, all its aspects are incredibly interesting to me!
    3. Polymer
      Polymer 5 May 2021 22: 13
      0
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      And the thesis that coins were not the equivalent of exchange, in my opinion, needs additional argumentation.

      And they were the equivalent of an exchange, only not by nomination, but by weight.
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier April 25 2021 13: 12
    -1
    Obviously, the official history will for a long time pedal the false dilemma "Normanism-anti-Normanism", which, to simplify, boils down to "Scandinavians or Western Slavs". The point is to conceal the Germanic origin of Russia (Rugov). Naturally, these are not Scandinavians. But the so-called "Western Slavs" are Venda, the chronicles speak about it directly. And the Wends are Vandals, Germans. Title of Swedish monarch until 1973: Med Guds Nåde Sveriges, Götes och Vendes Konung, also in Latin: Dei Gratia Suecorum, Gothorum et Vandalorum Rex
  • Yurahip
    Yurahip April 25 2021 14: 01
    0
    Rus, not Rus, pi n Dos do not even care about their origin, they have mixed all the land in their genotype!
  • OlegVK
    OlegVK April 25 2021 14: 37
    -3
    Do not wash, so throw shit into the history of Russia. Not much yet, but a little bit ...
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 25 2021 15: 18
    +5
    Great stuff!
    Thanks Edward!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 25 2021 19: 46
      +4
      thank you for rating hi
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 25 2021 20: 01
        +7
        An estimate? Can I, a St. Petersburg miserable, evaluate the work of a person who, being a studiosus, argued with Kirpichnikov himself ??? laughing hi
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 25 2021 20: 38
          +6
          I understood a typo, St. Petersburg intellectual ...
          argued with Kirpichnikov himself

          Oh youth, stupidity
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 25 2021 20: 43
            +5
            The rumors about my intelligence are somewhat exaggerated by the Mikhailovs. Both.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              April 25 2021 20: 44
              +3
              So exaggerated good
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave April 25 2021 20: 56
                +6
                Judge for yourself. I am one of the rare idiots who managed not to get a higher education, all my life I have been doing not what I would like, Socrates is my everything. So who am I after that?
                Had he been born ten years earlier, he would have been proud of belonging to the "generation of janitors and watchmen", and so, miserable is.
                1. Edward Vashchenko
                  April 25 2021 21: 25
                  +5
                  Socrates - it sounds proudly!
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish April 25 2021 21: 32
                  +6
                  Hello Anton. hi You are not alone in this world, at one time I was also safely kicked out of the Moscow Architectural Institute, but all my life I tried to do only what I wanted to do. And you know, it worked out, for the most part. smile
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 April 27 2021 21: 48
                    0
                    And what didn't you pass?
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish April 28 2021 17: 16
                      +1
                      I was just deeply involved with the teacher at the department of drawing. I was offered to apologize, I replied that the teacher was the first to start, let him apologize first. And I no longer had the desire to continue my studies there, after two years I realized that "this is not mine." The dean did not give me the documents for three years, he wanted to come back, and gave it only to my wife when she graduated from this university.
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 28 2021 19: 32
                        +1
                        Serious universities have their own capricious habits.

                        And they shape a person, and they can cut off something.
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish April 28 2021 20: 49
                        +1
                        "A man lived in the mountains for a century" (c)

                        And then they cut off his head. laughing
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 28 2021 21: 17
                        +1
                        "You don't have to lose your head" (c).
                      4. Catfish
                        Catfish April 28 2021 21: 27
                        +2
                        Somehow I don't want to lose anything, well, except innocence, of course. laughing
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 28 2021 22: 10
                        +1
                        “What a man throws on the road, the pan carries in his pocket” (c).
                      6. Catfish
                        Catfish April 28 2021 22: 25
                        +2
                        "As the zhupan put on, so is the pan" (c)
                      7. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 05: 47
                        +1
                        Riddle.

                        “All the gentlemen have thrown off their caftans,
                        One gentleman did not take off his caftan. "
                      8. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 05: 50
                        +1
                        Christmas tree, come on, or something forever green?
                      9. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 06: 04
                        +1
                        Конечно.
                        Looks like he chose the role of the entertainer.

                        Another mystery.
                        "Itself is oak, the belt is elm, and the nose is lime."
                      10. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 06: 06
                        +1
                        Really Buratino? laughing
                      11. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 06: 14
                        +1
                        Not. According to my version, Pinocchio was cut out of pine. Pinocchio is.
                      12. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 06: 22
                        +1
                        So is this Pinocchio?
                        And how does he differ from Pinocchio, only the type of wood?
                      13. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 06: 27
                        +1
                        Not. Just a barrel.

                        The plots of Pinocchio and Pinocchio are different. Pinocchio somehow did not look.
                      14. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 06: 29
                        +1
                        A barrel ... The first thing that came to mind, but I thought that for a simple barrel, a set of wood was too complex. With Buratina it was somehow easier. smile
                      15. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 06: 31
                        +1
                        But what about cognac?

                        You can't do without oak.
                      16. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 06: 33
                        +2
                        So I never drank cognac from a barrel, so first of all thoughts about rainwater, and then beer. smile
                      17. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 07: 00
                        +1
                        Right. You have to think about the rain, about the house.
                      18. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 07: 09
                        +1
                        "It's raining, it's raining in our city ..." (c)
                      19. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 07: 26
                        +1
                        "I love you, my rains" (c).
                      20. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 08: 08
                        +1
                        "After the rain - on Thursday" (c)
                      21. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 29 2021 08: 41
                        +1
                        "After a rain, the heavens are spacious" (c).
                      22. Catfish
                        Catfish April 29 2021 08: 51
                        +2
                        "Look, pilot, how blue the sky is" (c)
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 25 2021 21: 34
    +7
    Edward, thanks for the story. Not mine, but I read it with pleasure. Only the pictures of Ilyusha Glazunov spoiled the impression a little. smile
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 26 2021 08: 18
      +5
      Constantine
      thank you
      but "pictures" are pain and pain. It's a shame, but despite the huge number of artists, the theme of Russian history is extremely poorly developed. I, too, have strange feelings for Glazunov, and for his depiction of history, although I must give credit to the artist he was not bad: the watercolors of Russian churches are magnificent. But ... alas, there are very few decent pictures. The same Semigradsky in the State Historical Museum hangs almost from the ceiling.
      According to the early history of fingers on one hand, it will be enough to list, alas
      Sad.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 26 2021 08: 59
        +2
        Well, what about Konstantin Vasiliev ?! good



        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 26 2021 09: 07
          +2
          and he too, although very beautiful laughing
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 26 2021 12: 42
            +1
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            and he too, although very beautiful

            Greetings Edward!
            Unfortunately, this time I got into a nodding analysis! crying
          2. Edward Vashchenko
            April 26 2021 16: 21
            +2
            Greetings !!!! This is how it happens, but ... to be continued, here I thought of answering the question about trading))))
          3. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 26 2021 16: 23
            +1
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            thought to answer a question about trade

            This is interesting!
          4. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 26 2021 19: 21
            +3
            This is interesting!
            Exactly! And you have to deal with the dacha and subsistence farming. laughing
          5. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 26 2021 19: 23
            +2
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Exactly! And you have to deal with the dacha and subsistence farming.

            Well, sorry Anton! everyone has their own hobbies. As Diocletian used to say: You should have seen what kind of cabbage I have grown! hi
          6. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 26 2021 19: 27
            +3
            hi Sergei!
            "Don't set the sun for me!" (FROM) laughing
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol April 26 2021 14: 11
    -1
    Who were the "Rus"?
    Even Nestor, beloved by official historiography, does not confuse the concepts of "Rus" and "Varangians". The Slavs expelled the Varangians, either by force or by deception, they were able to subdue them for a short time, and then called on "Rus" so that there was no recapture. Note that there were a lot of Varangians (in this case, they really were Normans), at least ten jarls with squads. Nevertheless, the Slavs had enough of their own strength to expel them. They were probably not that backward.
    They called for "Russia" with one leader - Rurik, that is, it was a treaty, an agreement of equal parties. It is characteristic that the descendants of Rurik were not called "Varangians", the princes were precisely Russian, not Varangian.
    Who are the "Rus"?
    Most likely, it was not a separate ethnic group at all. There is no need to involve other languages ​​in the search for the etymology of a word, since our language has a kindred - "channel".
    That is, the "Rus" are those who live by the "river" bed. In a fortified settlement - a fortified city.
    This is the class of warriors. Since the soldiers are supposed to be where the penetration of the enemy-invader is possible. After all, it was the rivers that played the role of the most important communications: in summer - on boats, in winter - river ice is an ideal road for both foot and horse. Therefore, our ancestors often fought on the rivers.
    As for the "dews". Of course, this is not the self-designation of a people or class. But the word "grew" is consonant with "rus" and contains characteristic information about our ancestors. So this word is "red", the favorite color of our ancestors (synonym for "beautiful"). Compare with French Rouge or German Rotte. Maybe we are talking about the fact that the ancestors loved to paint their face and hair, or about the color of the shields of warriors-Rus.

    In conclusion, a semantic bridge between the "Slavs" and "Rus"
    Slavs - Slovenia - word - speech - river, river - channel - Russian.

    Originally "river" was a proper name. The original Slavic name of such a natural reservoir is "d (o) n" (hence the Dnieper and Dniester).
    River - "don", which lived those who owned "speech" (word, writing). It was only later that all such bodies of water began to be called "rivers".
  • place
    place April 26 2021 14: 13
    0
    Pts patriotic, class! Especially the works of Glazunov .....
    However, no one referred to Saint Nestor from his "Tale of Bygone Years". Heh .. heh ... how is it there?
    "And the Drevlyans lived in a bestial custom, lived like a bestial: they killed each other, ate everything that was unclean, and they did not marry, but they snatched the girls by the water. animals, they ate everything that was unclean and scolded in front of their fathers and daughters-in-law, and they did not have marriages, but games were arranged between the villages, and they came to these games, to dances and to all kinds of demonic songs, and here they snatched their wives by agreement with them; they had two and three wives. "

    Yes, I somehow do not care - from the Vikings all this or not from the Vikings ..........
    Although it would seem, who should be trusted? To the contemporary of the original way of life, or to the obviously pro-domineering artists under all the powers? Although the heroic faces on Glazunov's canvases are class!
    1. Piligrim
      Piligrim April 26 2021 20: 29
      0
      There is one BUT ... any contemporary, especially one who always writes under the supervision of the authorities, so the question of how objective and impartial he is should not be forgotten when referring to historical sources.
      1. ivan2022
        ivan2022 April 27 2021 00: 01
        -1
        Quote: Piligrim
        any contemporary, especially one who always writes under the supervision of the authorities, so the question is how objective he is


        I suppose that for this it is necessary to distinguish between who exactly writes. A monk, promoted by descendants to the rank of a saint of "All Russia" precisely for his objectivity and courage to write the truth about his contemporaries, or an artist or journalist who stands his welfare on friendship with the authorities.
        If one wishes to please the authorities, he does not have to become a monk and live in a monastery.
        1. Piligrim
          Piligrim April 29 2021 21: 28
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          About holiness. The holiness of holiness is different. I recommend reading "The Saints of the Russian Land", unfortunately I forgot the author, but he is one of the former who did not accept 1917 and wrote his work in immigration, if I remember everything correctly. There are a lot of interesting historical facts given .... So Nestor's "holiness" is not an argument. We also have Prince Vladimir saint ... so what?
    2. Illanatol
      Illanatol April 29 2021 14: 00
      -1
      However, no one referred to Saint Nestor from his "Tale of Bygone Years". Heh .. heh ... how is it there?


      Nestor is a Christian. What could a Christian write about the customs of the pagans?
      Of course, a similar blizzard: "they lived in the forest, prayed to the wheel, were cruel lawless savages. Only Christian priests brought the light of morality, morality and culture."
      In short, if it were not for the Byzantine culttragers, we would have remained savages.
      Well, well ... following this logic, it should be concluded that Byzantium itself was a true stronghold of culture, morality, philanthropy and other virtues. After all, it is impossible to enlighten others, if you yourself are not bright .. right?
      And in fact?
      It was in Byzantium that they began to massively burn people at the stake, long before the European Inquisition.
      Torture, fanaticism in all its glory. As a symbol - the Bible bound from human skin. The skin of children was especially appreciated ...
      And even the term "pornography" came to us from Byzantium. One of the hills on which Constantinople stood was called "Pornai".
      Rather, the original customs of the Slavic Rus contributed to the softening of Christianity, rather than the other way around.

      However, we do not know what Nestor actually wrote. No one was holding in their hands the original of his opus, written by the author's hand. Only copies of his work have come down to us, many times "edited" over the past centuries. Of course, in full compliance with the "general line".
  • Piligrim
    Piligrim April 26 2021 20: 25
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    You can feel the classic preparation of the author. Therefore, let me give him some informal arguments.
    The term Rus. Why are historians not interested in the research of linguists, ethnographers and other related subjects? I personally came across an article that even today in the Russian north one can hear in the villages the use of the word rus by old people, perhaps in its original meaning - a bright place. Maybe then you won't have to look for the origin of this word in the "Norman" primary sources?
    The term is tribute. Take a simpler look at it. Think back to the 90s. The "roof" ran into the businessman, he understood everything and agreed to pay ... tribute. If we discard the pseudo-scientific tinsel, then such a view allows you to see the world as it is and ... most likely it was many years ago, in fact, out of shape. It turns out that the Vikings are our Slavic brothers of that time, and the Vikings (Normans) are the Scandinavian lads. By the way, the Baltic was called the Varangian Sea, which makes me personally proud of my ancestors. True, at the same time, science cannot be depicted and you definitely cannot write a dissertation.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 27 2021 08: 38
      0
      Good afternoon,
      the data of philologists are used without fail, half of what is written in my article is based on the research of philologists.
      It is important to understand that there is no historian without language training, otherwise he is “thinking about history” or “reading about history”.
      Each historian receives a linguistic education and is obliged to translate from the source language himself, there is an article about this on VO: you cannot translate with all the accompanying ones, knowledge of how this or that term or concept is interpreted - there is no historian. Just a person who reads books about history.
      The same applies to the data of ethnography cited by you, preparation in this discipline is required.
      hi
      1. Piligrim
        Piligrim April 29 2021 21: 31
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        The answer is, of course, understandable, but essentially nothing is said ... thanks anyway.
  • ivan2022
    ivan2022 April 27 2021 00: 08
    -1
    The history of the Slavs is also called Blasphemy. The word is
    became negative. The meaning of the word "Blasphemy" is "To Our Schuram", that is, an appeal to the ancestors, to their wisdom. Shchuras were called the chiefs of the clan, who left in memory of themselves the name of the clan, that is, the surname. Hence, Blasphemy is an epic, Blasphemy is a storyteller, Blasphemy is a story of antiquity.
    The ancient blasphemers were the first hired journalists and the first historians. Over time, the name of their craft became a household name with a specific meaning.