Military Review

DNA genealogy's perspective on Norman theory

232

One of the milestones stories, which is discussed by experts from different positions, is associated with the formation of Russia, the appearance on it of Rurik, who is considered the founder of the first dynasty. On this occasion, the controversy not only does not subside, but on the contrary. Historians have divided into several "camps", which are often opposing each other.


Representatives of one theory are inclined to believe that Russia itself acquired its name from the name of a Scandinavian tribe during the period of the so-called Scandinavian expansion. Supporters of this theory attribute the Varangians of Kievan Rus to the Norman tribes.

This theory is opposed by the anti-Normanists, who do not consider the first ruling Russian elites to be related to the Norman tribes. Supporters of anti-Normanism are sure that these elites had exclusively Slavic roots.

Is it possible to somehow resolve this dispute, which has been going on, in fact, for centuries?

Today, when completely new technologies appear, "clues" are being discovered that previously could not be considered due to the level of science. Such technologies include the study of DNA. From these possibilities, a science develops, which is called DNA genealogy. It allows you to answer questions that previously looked like intractable. At the same time, the DNA genealogy is also "matched" to the cornerstone of the process of the formation of Russia, the formation of ancient Russian elites.

The Day channel broadcasts the judgments of Anatoly Klyosov and German Artamonov, which directly relate to Norman theory.

DNA genealogy's perspective on Norman theory:

232 comments
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  1. Krasnodar
    Krasnodar April 17 2021 19: 51
    +7
    Klesov is a talented medical biologist, professor at Harvard University, developer of targeted cancer therapy. But in his hobby, and genetics is just a hobby for him, he is an amateur, professionals, both here and in the West, his work is considered a profanation
    1. nnm
      nnm April 17 2021 19: 59
      +1
      Honestly, I found out about this person after your comment. I read several notes about him - Hyperborea, the Proto-Slavs - the ancestors of mankind, the leadership of the magazine, publishing ordered articles, the Aryan theory for the Slavs ...
      Each person, of course, has the right to his opinion, including the development of new scientific theories, but he gives more with the prefix "crypto" before his theories.
      Perhaps for him these sections are just mind games in order to distract from the main field of activity and train the brain, or maybe something else. But you are right, colleague, the international scientific community seems to be underwhelmed by the lack of a scientific basis in its research.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 17 2021 20: 04
        -1
        Quite right. I regard this as a pseudoscientific toy of a rather gifted person in his professional field of activity.
        1. nnm
          nnm April 17 2021 20: 07
          0
          Scientific trolling wink hi
          1. Nazar
            Nazar April 18 2021 02: 37
            0
            nnm - trolling, of course, but not at all "scientific" - questions:
            1. Who took the DNA samples in the field? Does Klyosov have a structure working in different countries and having permission everywhere for the selection of DNA materials from the population?
            2. How many people were DNA sampled from?
            3. How “representative” is the selection of those from whom the samples were taken?
            This is roughly like a social survey, you can interview people at the exit from the office of a large company - this is one result, but interviewing grandmothers in the local market is the result of another, or you can write the results without leaving your own office.
            Klyosov "works" according to the third option, that is, not being able to collect the required amount of material, he is writing. He does not have, and can not have a structure that would have the right to collect DNA samples in different countries, and there is no methodology for how to determine the number and composition of those from whom samples should be taken. What kind of "science" then can we talk about?
            1. the lord
              the lord April 18 2021 13: 43
              +4
              "Klyosov" works "according to the third option, that is, not being able to collect the required amount of material, he is writing" And what is it like. not knowing a person to direct him in vain? He does not have a separate structure to collect samples. Archaeological expeditions do it for him when they find the remains of people and museums that send the remains of their exhibits for examination. So they send them both to Klesov's laboratory and to a number of similar laboratories around the world. Infa about what blood this or that person from the past was very important infa. And Klesov has the opportunity to find out and find out everything from similar laboratories. This infa is not a trade secret. And on the basis of these data, maps of the distribution of certain haplogroups around the world have long been compiled on the basis of the found burials in the context of time.
              You could have thought of it yourself or read it from Klesov himself, than here to "be clever".
              1. Nazar
                Nazar April 19 2021 03: 08
                0
                sign - you yourself wrote - Klyosov does not have any structure - obtaining DNA samples is random, someone, somewhere, found something and maybe shared information with Klyosov, or maybe not, to compare with modern material of living people - opportunities he does not, no country will allow him mass sampling from the population.
                And on the basis of some fragmentary data obtained by someone unknown and how, Klyosov allows himself to draw conclusions of "cosmic proportions and cosmic stupidity." This is not a science, this is a classic "fantasy", and Klyosov 100% fits the definition of a "British scientist", who he is a sweat to the place of his main work hi
                And in addition, my personal opinion is that if Rurik existed at all (which is not a fact at all), then he could not have been "summoned" from Scandinavia, and Klyosov's "data" had nothing to do with it. It's just that, unlike Russia, the Scandinavians have preserved many written sources and in none of them (!!!) there is even a hint that their "fellow countryman" was at the head of Russia.
                1. the lord
                  the lord April 30 2021 00: 19
                  0
                  Where did I write that Klesov has no structure? There are archaeological expeditions sending him samples and not in random order. And it has structures. who are engaged in DNA analysis of these samples. And many other laboratories in the world are also doing this, and they are in contact with Klesov.
                  And why should he take samples from the living population?))))) This population lives right now, but archaeological burials are a completely different matter. They are just not bad (although it is always necessary to make digressions in the sense that these are not all the remains of all the people who lived then. But they are as close as possible to the truth.
                  And the fact that Rurik was not a Scandinavian in addition to DNA genealogy says much more. And there are no Scandinavian cults in Russia in any century, and we know very little about this period, partly from that. that there are no sagas from Rurik himself, in the sense of his court fabulist. But if he is a Scandinavian, then the sagas should be close and desirable to him, and most importantly, the irrationality of inviting as the supreme commander a stranger who can conflict and leave and take with him all the secrets of the Novgorodians. Well these are such trump cards for further campaigns and robberies!
        2. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 22: 10
          +3
          Quote: Krasnodar
          Quite right. I treat it like a pseudoscientific toy

          And you are a scientist in what field? Once you judge the pseudoscience of DNA genealogy.
          .
          Quote: Krasnodar
          a rather gifted person in his professional field of activity.

          If a person is gifted, then he is gifted in many ways.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 17 2021 22: 16
            -3
            I am not a scientist - a specialist in the field of recognizing noodle on the ears. Commercial, ideological and pseudoscientific, etc. hi
            Undoubtedly, talented people are gifted in many ways. And they swim in many ways)).
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 22: 21
              +3
              Quote: Krasnodar

              Undoubtedly, talented people are gifted in many ways.

              Yes it is, and we have not noticed, although we, too.
              Quote: Krasnodar
              And they swim in many ways)).

              And this is already your high ...
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 18 2021 00: 15
                +1
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                And this is already your high ...

                Did you communicate a lot and often with medical professors, for example? lol I had 10 years in a row))
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk April 18 2021 11: 08
                  +3
                  Quote: Krasnodar

                  Did you communicate a lot and often with medical professors, for example? lol I had 10 years in a row))

                  And are they the pros at DNA genealogy?
                  My sister is a professor of the Faculty of Science. But this does not mean that I am a doc in mathematics and physics.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar April 18 2021 12: 03
                    0
                    No, they float in many other matters. Not all, but many
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 18 2021 13: 50
                      +2
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      No, they float in many other matters. Not all, but many

                      So let them swim. The Jews did not award them, but Klesov, according to unverified rumors, was awarded either a medal or some kind of insignia.
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 18 2021 14: 41
                        +3
                        They were awarded, and more than once, and not only by Jews)).
                        Just besides Klesov, no one knows about this laughing
                        In 2009, a genetic study was carried out on 215 Coens (type of descendants of Aron, brother of Moses). 215 people, 57% of whom were from Europe, found 22 GALLOGRUPS
                        How Klesov can relate entire nations to ONE GALLOGRUPE - unclear
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 13: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        How Klesov can relate entire nations to ONE GALLOGRUPE is not clear

                        It is in your brains that he does it. But in fact, he says that, for example, the haplogroup R1a is often found in India, Iran, Tajikistan and other countries. Where are your nations here? An inventor.
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 20 2021 17: 57
                        -1
                        laughing there are a lot of haplogroups where they are found - read more Klesov, there he describes who they are characteristic for and draws left conclusions based on this.
                      4. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 20
                        +1
                        First, you state one thing -
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        How Klesov can relate entire nations to ONE GALLOGRUPE is not clear

                        And when I showed that you are slandering, they began to play up -
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        read more Klesov, where he describes for whom they are characteristic and draws left conclusions on the basis of this.

                        I, trying to understand who is right, refer to Klesov. And you have never referred to anyone. Are you an expert in DNA genealogy or a trade manager?
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 35
                        -1
                        What to huddle? laughing Klesov concluded on the following:
                        Hallogroup such and found in such a century BC. in the territory of residence of the ancestors of the Slavs. Let's call them Aryans.
                        Traces of the same halogroup, dated 500-100-1500 years later, were discovered by archaeologists in India, Iran, and Tajikistan.
                        Conclusion - the Aryans are the ancestors of the Slavs, they came there, and not the modern peoples of Aryan origin to us laughing
                        If this seems normal to you, then it seems ridiculous to me. ))
                        Give you links to everyone I referred to? ))
                      6. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 52
                        +1
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        What to huddle? laughing Klesov concluded on the following:
                        Hallogroup such and found in such a century BC. in the territory of residence of the ancestors of the Slavs. Let's call them Aryans.
                        Traces of the same halogroup, dated 500-100-1500 years later, were discovered by archaeologists in India, Iran, and Tajikistan.
                        Conclusion - the Aryans are the ancestors of the Slavs, they came there, and not modern peoples of Aryan origin to us laughing

                        All wrong. If you approach strictly, then you slandered Klesov. Lo beseder, as the Jews say. If you wrote it down incorrectly, I beg your pardon.
                      7. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 20 2021 19: 06
                        0
                        Well, how is it right? Tell me please
                      8. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 22: 00
                        +1
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Well, how is it right? Tell me please

                        I meant the word (or phrase, or two words) LO BESEDER. Translation, if I remember correctly - have a conscience
                        By the way, I read the link given by you - as I expected - a set of accusatory stamps that do not prove Klesov wrong. An article written for diehard supporters of traditional history. After all, they do not need any proof of the opponent's wrongness. It is enough to call him a charlatan, and that's all.
                      9. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 21 2021 05: 21
                        0
                        Lo beseder - not in order, not in order.
                        Now think about how any nation is formed. An example is modern Czechs.
                        Western Slavs + German infusions (= Romans + Germanic tribes + Gauls + other peoples who served in the army of the Roman Empire up to the Thracians) + Semitic of the baptized Jews, both Ashkenazi (Middle Eastern and Polish infusions) and Sephardic (Spanish + Mauritanian infusions) + Slovaks (slightly different Slavs) + Hungarians + Russians.
                        If you find somewhere in Sicily the same halogroup as prevailing in the Prague region, found 500 cases before the Sicilian discovery, do you conclude that the Czech conquerors founded the Roman Empire? for example laughing
                      10. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 21 2021 08: 57
                        +2
                        You have piled up something here, mixing the sinful with the righteous ...
                        During the Second World War, the Germans, having occupied ALL Ukraine and Belarus, in theory should have left a noticeable "trace", but this is not confirmed by research. Yes, there are inclusions, but minimal. And mixed marriages are not as common as people think.
                        If a certain majority of the inhabitants of Eastern Europe have the R1a label, then we can conclude that these are Slavs. If only because they live here. If in a remote village of Yaroslavl or Kostroma regions. live people with a label (for example, I don't remember exactly the order of the numbers) R1a1Z293, then we can probably assume that these are Russians. What else do you want? And if in the Egyptian pyramid the mummy has the mark R1a1Z290, then we can assume that the pharaoh is the Russian tsar? Don't take it lightly, this is just an example joke and to make you smile. hi
                      11. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 21 2021 10: 14
                        -1
                        Germans in Ukraine and Belarus:
                        Already in the 20th century, there was no mass rape after "3 days to plunder the city", firstly, they perceived Slavic women as female untermets, and secondly.
                        The halo group indicated by you may be the largest among the Slavs, but far from the only one - for example, 40-45%. ))
                        I understand - just to draw historical conclusions based on gallogroups - in my opinion the network is not correct.
                      12. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 21 2021 14: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        they perceived Slavic women as female untermeches,

                        Yes, yes, yes, a host of hungry men, looking at defenseless women, completely forgot about physiology. Believe it yourself?
                        It was ours who were threatened with a tribunal for such cases, and then ... And they were told that it was not good ... with Untermensch females, but they did not consider it a crime.
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        The halo group indicated by you may be the largest among the Slavs, but far from the only one - for example, 40-45%. ))

                        Then there was a pointless conversation.
                        You adjust the interest to suit your desires, and this is scholasticism.
                        I wish you well. hi
                      13. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 21 2021 15: 45
                        0
                        But there were no mass rapes there, but punished for "ties with the Untermenchs." A normal commander, of course, did not give up his own. But, in addition, the Germans had field brothels in the rear, for soldiers and officers. Mostly French women, etc.
                        and I adjust the percentages according to the research results of the same Coens
                        Have a nice one you too hi
                  2. Maki Avellevich
                    Maki Avellevich April 21 2021 17: 13
                    -1
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    During the Second World War, the Germans, having occupied ALL Ukraine and Belarus, in theory should have left a noticeable "trace", but this is not confirmed by research. Yes, there are inclusions, but minimal.

                    are you comparing 4 years of German occupation and 500-600 years of the Romans in Europe ??
                    these are two different "inclusions" I tell you
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter April 17 2021 21: 56
    +7
    Quote: nnm
    I read about him - Hyperborea, the Proto-Slavs - the ancestors of mankind, the leadership of the magazine, publishing ordered articles, the Aryan theory for the Slavs ...

    This tin! In this pseudo-scientificness, there is no textureology, and even more so scientific substantiation and linguistic consistency.
  • ee2100
    ee2100 April 17 2021 20: 41
    +12
    No one denies the existence of DNA, both as a source of information and its transmission. There is a certain group of diseases that are inherited, there is a group of diseases, the predisposition to which is also inherited. Determination of kinship in a genetic way does not surprise anyone, and so on. etc.
    But with regards to DNA geneology, this is a taboo of terrible power for historians. This theory is immediately written down in anti-scientific, and its supporters are exposed to labeling and insults.
    It is clear to everyone why this is so.
    As stated in the storerooms of museums and other repositories, there are enough materials for research, but access to them is closed to geneticists.
    And what if they open it and have to rewrite history?
    To understand and understand the principle of "work" of DNA geneology, you must have certain knowledge. This is not possible per click.
    Get yourself a genetic test to confirm or deny your ancestry.
    Trolling in the first turn of Klesov. He offers everyone joint activities, but in reality only Artamonov went to such a contact.
    1. Victorio
      Victorio April 17 2021 21: 20
      +3
      Quote: ee2100
      But as far as DNA genealogy is concerned, this is a taboo of terrible power for historians. This theory was immediately recorded in the anti-scientificand its supporters are subject to labeling and abuse.
      It is clear to everyone why this is so.
      As stated in the storerooms of museums and other repositories, there are enough materials for research, but access to them is closed to geneticists.
      And what if they open it and have to rewrite history?
      To understand and understand the principle of "work" of DNA genealogy, you must have certain knowledge. This is not possible per click.
      Get yourself a genetic test to confirm or deny your ancestry.
      The trolls are primarily Klesov. He offers everyone joint activities, but in reality only Artamonov made such a contact.

      ===
      the learned world is still a menagerie.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 April 17 2021 21: 41
        -4
        Time will put everything in its place. If his research is wrong, well, let them prove it.
        We were taught Darwin's theory at school and where is it now?
        The religious theory of the appearance of man answers at least some questions.
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu April 17 2021 21: 58
          +12
          Darwin's theory is not an integral part of the modern theory of evolution. If you think otherwise, then you are zero in biology.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 April 18 2021 00: 46
            -1
            Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
            Darwin's theory is an integral part of the modern theory of evolution

            But she's just a theory. request So don't talk about zeros. wink
            1. Usher
              Usher April 18 2021 03: 28
              0
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
              Darwin's theory is an integral part of the modern theory of evolution

              But she's just a theory. request So don't talk about zeros. wink

              You don't even know the meaning of the word, what to talk about here. Theory in science and in life are different things, if you did not know.
            2. Usher
              Usher April 18 2021 10: 37
              -1
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
              Darwin's theory is an integral part of the modern theory of evolution

              But she's just a theory. request So don't talk about zeros. wink

              https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Теория
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 April 18 2021 13: 24
                -5
                Well, teach yourself the definition of the theory. There is not a word about proof and facts.
                Figuratively speaking, the essence of theory is to tie together "circumstantial evidence", to issue a verdict on past events and indicate what will happen in the future if certain conditions are met.
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  • Usher
    Usher April 18 2021 03: 31
    +1
    Quote: ee2100
    Time will put everything in its place. If his research is wrong, well, let them prove it.
    We were taught Darwin's theory at school and where is it now?
    The religious theory of the appearance of man answers at least some questions.

    If you even bother to read, then STE is based on the writings of Darwin. And it has been proven. And there is no doubt. The simplest example is pets and plants. If there is even a drop of understanding, then this is enough to understand.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 38
      -4
      Pray for your Darwin! And at the same time ask your fellow believers: "which was the first, the chicken or the egg?"
      Say hello to the one who proves the theory!
      One more thing. If the theory is proven, then it is no longer a theory, but the truth!
      1. Usher
        Usher April 18 2021 10: 36
        0
        Quote: ee2100
        Pray for your Darwin! And at the same time ask your fellow believers: "which was the first, the chicken or the egg?"
        Say hello to the one who proves the theory!
        One more thing. If the theory is proven, then it is no longer a theory, but the truth!

        What have you lost on this site? You don't even know that "theory" in science is different from just "theory" in life. There's nothing to talk about with you, ignoramus. At least read the wiki. If the theories were not correct, then you would not eat almost all modern food and would not print any nonsense. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. ee2100
          ee2100 April 18 2021 14: 01
          -2
          Really passed the exam in biology? Here's the fun and straight into the waving wikipedia experts!
          1. Usher
            Usher April 18 2021 18: 06
            -2
            Quote: ee2100
            Really passed the exam in biology? Here's the fun and straight into the waving wikipedia experts!

            do you hear !? What are you twisting here? If you don’t peck in the eyes, you can see that I wrote "at least". Do you understand what words are and the meaning of words?
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 April 18 2021 19: 17
              0
              Judging by the trash style of communication, you did not pass the USE in biology either.
              1. Usher
                Usher April 18 2021 19: 40
                0
                Quote: ee2100
                Judging by the trash style of communication, you did not pass the USE in biology either.

                you will see in the mirror, I am amazed at such impudence. I started being rude here myself
                Quote: ee2100
                Pray for your Darwin! And at the same time ask your fellow believers: "which was the first, the chicken or the egg?"
                Say hello to the one who proves the theory!
                One more thing. If the theory is proven, then it is no longer a theory, but the truth!

                What's this? Top of etiquette. And then he is surprised that he is answered in the same tone to stupid questions.
              2. Usher
                Usher April 18 2021 19: 45
                -1
                Quote: ee2100
                Judging by the trash style of communication, you did not pass the USE in biology either.

                By the way, in 2000 I passed the final and entrance exam at the BGF, you probably know what faculty it is. perfectly well. and won a prize at the regional Olympiad just in biology))) But he connected his life with technology.
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 April 18 2021 19: 12
      +1
      Everything went down in history: Lamarck, Darwin, and Hugo de Vries.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 18 2021 19: 10
    +2
    Darwin's theory is one of the most significant theories.

    By the way, looking at modern discussions about the synthetic theory of evolution and other things, there is a strong feeling that this is the most metaphysical section of biology.
    1. Usher
      Usher April 18 2021 19: 41
      0
      Quote: Korsar4
      Darwin's theory is one of the most significant theories.

      By the way, looking at modern discussions about the synthetic theory of evolution and other things, there is a strong feeling that this is the most metaphysical section of biology.

      No, not metaphysical for a long time.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 18 2021 19: 43
        +1
        Nevertheless, logical constructions prevail there.
        And Mendeleev's phrase that science begins with measurements is still relevant.
        1. Usher
          Usher April 18 2021 19: 53
          -1
          Quote: Korsar4
          Nevertheless, logical constructions prevail there.
          And Mendeleev's phrase that science begins with measurements is still relevant.

          As if the entire fossil record is materialized evolution. All modern domestic animal and plant cultures are artificial evolution, or rather artificial selection. Which just shows the mechanisms of change. No logic, everything is clear. Not to mention genetics. Pure practical science.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 18 2021 20: 08
            0
            Agree that the temporal data of paleontology is often shaken up.

            Artificial selection is an indisputable thing. But this is a matter of selection.
            And when theories are piled up, as in the books of Tchaikovsky, each of his own can draw out of this cauldron.
            1. Usher
              Usher April 18 2021 22: 41
              -1
              Quote: Korsar4
              Agree that the temporal data of paleontology is often shaken up.

              Artificial selection is an indisputable thing. But this is a matter of selection.
              And when theories are piled up, as in the books of Tchaikovsky, each of his own can draw out of this cauldron.

              Well, life is a very complicated thing and it just can't be explained. There are a lot of nuances. Foolish people do not understand this.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 April 19 2021 01: 08
                0
                Sometimes complex, sometimes simple truths. I would not divide into wise and stupid.
                There are nuances, no doubt.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar April 17 2021 21: 44
    0
    Quote: ee2100
    No one denies the existence of DNA, both as a source of information and its transmission. There is a certain group of diseases that are inherited, there is a group of diseases, the predisposition to which is also inherited. Determination of kinship in a genetic way does not surprise anyone, and so on. etc.
    But with regards to DNA geneology, this is a taboo of terrible power for historians. This theory was immediately written into the anti-scientific,

    Why is it taboo? ))
    There is a lot of research on the so-called. DNA genealogy, but scientists always stipulate a large percentage of error due to converts (in Jews, for example, or, say, a German donkey in Russia, Ethiopian in Kenya, French in Greece, etc.), factors of wars (rape, large migration ethnic population and assimilation among the peoples intending a new land), adultery, etc.
    And Klesov draws conclusions without taking into account the above factors
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 April 17 2021 22: 11
      +4
      What you wrote about fits into statistical errors. He presented the conclusions that he received in the course of his research and they can be repeated in order to confirm or refute them, but no one other than Prof. Artamonov. does not want to tell him.
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 17 2021 22: 17
        -1
        Because it is considered nonsense to ignore the obvious.
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 April 17 2021 22: 20
          +4
          What are you talking about? Klesov says everything in percentages, for example 4-8%. And this is the error.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 18 2021 00: 07
            +4
            1) "the basic principle itself is incorrect, which allows each ethnic group, each archaeological culture and linguistic community to ascribe its own haplogroup." (from)
            For the reasons I mentioned above
            2) "incorrect transfer of socio-ethnographic categories to biological ones," (c)
            Also
            3) "his method, as based on ignoring population genetic approaches, taking into account the mandatory need to distinguish between evolutionary and genealogical rates, associated with the influence of population growth and the disappearance of mutations in a number of generations" (c)
            4) “he replaces the biological term“ haplogroup ”with the social term“ genus ”, and specifically identifies the haplogroup R1a1 with linguistic and cultural communities: Slavs and Aryans. As a result of such techniques, according to the authors, "you can deduce the origin of any population group from any ancestors", in particular, Klyosov's Arabs turn out to be descendants of the Slavs on the grounds that they have the R1a1 haplogroup. " (from)
            Just ridiculous
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 April 18 2021 01: 16
              +1
              Quote: Krasnodar
              "The basic principle itself, which allows each ethnic group, each archaeological culture and linguistic community to ascribe its own haplogroup, is incorrect."

              As far as I remember, he was not talking about the fact that the haplogroup is tightly nailed to a certain ethnic group. And about certain correlations. But this theory is that everyone was directly mixed with all the bullshit. Otherwise, there would be no differences at all between peoples. It is necessary to look at specific data on specific ethnic groups in a specific era.
              Quote: Krasnodar
              "His method, as based on ignoring population genetic approaches, taking into account the mandatory need to distinguish between evolutionary and genealogical rates, associated with the influence of population growth and the disappearance of mutations in a number of generations"

              Indistinctly vague pop genetics criticize Klesov. At the same time, brazenly attributing to him what he did not say. Operating with incomprehensible percentages and periods of time taken from the bulldozer.
              Quote: Krasnodar
              in particular, for Klyosov, the Arabs turn out to be descendants of the Slavs on the grounds that they have the haplogroup R1a1

              Where did he say that? As far as I remember, it was about the presence among the Arabs of the descendants of the Aryans who migrated in the direction of Arabia. Which of course are never Slavs. Here you read this and begin to believe Klyosov that popgenetics is a banal bunch of charlatans, grant eaters.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 18 2021 01: 44
                +1
                Indistinctly vague pop genetics criticize Klesov. At the same time, brazenly attributing to him what he did not say. Operating with incomprehensible percentages and periods of time taken from the bulldozer.

                Rather, Klesov manipulates the term haplogroup
                Yes, I also read something about the descendants of the Black Sea Aryans, from which the Jewish high priests and related Arabs came out and who knows who else
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 44
                  +1
                  To understand the terminology, you need to familiarize yourself a little with the basic concepts.
                  "This is not for you to play chess, you have to think here"
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 25
                    0
                    Quote: ee2100
                    To understand the terminology, you need to familiarize yourself a little with the basic concepts.
                    "This is not for you to play chess, you have to think here"

                    But it's so boring lol
                  2. ee2100
                    ee2100 April 18 2021 13: 58
                    +2
                    It takes a little tinkering to understand terminology and the basics of genetics
              2. knn54
                knn54 April 18 2021 12: 50
                +1
                According to Thor Heyerdahl, the ancestral home of the Norwegians was located at the mouth of the Don (Tanais) River, i.e. Valhalla was in the south of Russia, in the Azov region.
                At the same time, the scientist referred to ancient manuscripts.
                The strange death of a healthy, not yet old man prevented the completion of these studies.
                Then the origin of the Knights of the Round Table (Sarmatians today) of the first Cossacks should (perhaps) be considered differently.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 18 2021 13: 00
                  +2
                  He was killed to hide this terrible truth from the world. negative
                2. Usher
                  Usher April 18 2021 18: 07
                  -1
                  Quote: knn54
                  According to Thor Heyerdahl, the ancestral home of the Norwegians was located at the mouth of the Don (Tanais) River, i.e. Valhalla was in the south of Russia, in the Azov region.
                  At the same time, the scientist referred to ancient manuscripts.
                  The strange death of a healthy, not yet old man prevented the completion of these studies.
                  Then the origin of the Knights of the Round Table (Sarmatians today) of the first Cossacks should (perhaps) be considered differently.

                  Are you serious?
              3. the lord
                the lord April 18 2021 13: 52
                +1
                Have you read from Klesov about the origin of the Jewish high priests from the Black Sea Aryans?))))) As far as I know, it is the Orthodox Christians who have a phase shift and a desire to introduce everyone to the biblical ancestors of the Muscovite type from Mosokh and so on. In Klesov's work, the ancient Jews are separated from the Aryans by a completely different haplogroup. But modern Jews, who are Turks by blood, and not Semites, in addition to their Turkic origin, are also heavily trampled by many peoples. And the term haplogroup Klesov does not manipulate, but relies on general maps of their settlement, which not only he made, by the way.
                Admit it, you are too upset about it. that people like Klesov do not refer to you as Semites, but as Tatars)))
                And Klesov explains the discovery of the R1a1 haplogroup among the Arabs not by Slavism, but by Shiite Muslims of Persian origin, who are also Aryans, like the Slavs.
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 18 2021 14: 47
                  0
                  laughing
                  I do not see anything wrong with the Tatar origin of the Jews, I have a Tatar friend, here good dude but in an academic study of just 215 Coens, 22 haplogroups were found, the largest of them was J-P58 (J1 subclade (SNP))
                2. the lord
                  the lord April 30 2021 00: 00
                  0
                  And who speaks about the negative value of Tatar origin besides you Khazars?))))) And your academic studies are often accompanied by large bribes, as they can lead to exclusion from the Cohens)))), or what other byake-sons will not be able to marry profitably, for example)))) And then how will they create a fascist group to beat the Orthodox. You already had this in Israel))))
                3. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 30 2021 01: 02
                  0
                  And who speaks about the negative meaning of Tatar origin besides you Khazars?

                  Except for us, Khazars? lol Vyatichi and Drevlyans, probably))
                  And your academic research is often accompanied by large bribes, as it can lead to expulsion from the Cohen.

                  What is it like? Rewriting the pedigree and forcibly wearing a different surname, followed by the removal of restrictions on marriage with a divorced woman, a Ger and visiting cemeteries? laughing
                  or what other byake - sons will not be able to marry profitably, for example

                  I have news for you - the Second Temple was destroyed 2000 years ago, the nishtyaks and buns of the Cohens ended, there were only restrictions)).
                  And how will a fascist grouping be created later to beat the orthodox

                  Are you talking about the specialized units of the Israeli police? wassat
                  You already had this in Israel

                  The Cohen group that beat the Orthodox? recourse
                  Рњ-РґСЏ ... laughing
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 28
        +4
        Where did you get this quote from or is it the fruit of your inventions? Your colleague advised you to watch the video.
        He does not even say a word about the ethnos, this is not his hypostasis.
        No one has any complaints about the method of his research. All over the world use the same "machines"
        Klesov never said that the Arabs are the descendants of the Slavs, he simply said that this haplogroup is found among them.
        Not all Jews who consider themselves as such are 100% Jews.
        If you so desire, let's speak from abstract populations. And there will be no transfer of socio-ethnographic concepts to biological ones. He says that this is all to simplify understanding. am
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 18 2021 17: 33
          -2
          100% of the Jews cannot exist, as well as one hundred percent of anyone else.
          What quote are you talking about? About the research data I gave? ))
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 April 18 2021 17: 43
            +2
            Your answer from quotes. When I wrote it turned out in the singular.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 18 2021 19: 02
              0
              Quotes - offhand, type in Yandex or Google Klesov - criticism.
            2. ee2100
              ee2100 April 18 2021 19: 16
              +2
              I do not care. The best criticism is when someone repeats his research and tries to interpret it. In the meantime, this concussion at the level of believe-do not believe
            3. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 18 2021 19: 50
              0
              laughing
              Before him, they did research on the Coens' gallogroups, for example, the ultays rarely differed significantly from the Klesovskys
            4. ee2100
              ee2100 April 18 2021 20: 06
              +1
              The new version of the site is a little weird, but this video is on the eve of the announced article by Vaschenko, just on this topic this is real trolling
  • Lannan Shi
    Lannan Shi April 17 2021 23: 25
    +10
    Quote: Krasnodar
    o scientists always stipulate a large percentage of error due to converts (in Jews, for example, or, say, a German donkey in Russia, an Ethiopian in Kenya, a Frenchman in Greece, etc.),

    Klesov asks questions not about the presence of traces of those who could not have been, but about the fact that no traces of those who were, according to the official history, have been found. Here were the first Varangians, in the amount of marketable. Later the Mongols, in an even more marketable. AND??? Where is their genetic trace? Not found ... And so damn it does not happen. There is a genetic trace from a single passage of the French along the Smolensk road, but not from the centuries-old presence of the Varangian-Mongols. And the opponents of Klesov cannot give a clear explanation of this fact.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 18 2021 00: 30
      -1
      The Varangians are rather an estate, the Mongols, who are the yoke of a bunch of peoples, and the French who came in 1812 are a real ethnic (not only French) component)). hi
      1. IS-80_RVGK2
        IS-80_RVGK2 April 18 2021 01: 25
        +2
        What does hodgepodge mean? And the Papuans were there with the Indians? The point is that those haplogroups that are present in the habitats of the steppe inhabitants are found only in trace amounts among the Russians. And attempts to scratch the Russians do not find anyone except the Russians, with rare exceptions. If you want to criticize him, criticize him first for trying to pull by the ears the millennial confrontation between the original Aryans and the original Türks. And other incomprehensible relations with the monarchists.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 18 2021 03: 30
          -1
          Mongols, Turks, representatives of other peoples conquered by them.
          I am not criticizing him - I am not a geneticist. laughing I am just quoting criticism that seems reasonable to me.
          For example:
          In 2009, in the journal Human Genetics, in response to Klyosov's comment on the age of the lines of the descendants of the Jewish class of clergy (Cohens), published earlier in the same journal of the same year, an international team of professional geneticists criticized the methods used by Klyosov. They noted such defects as the use of unconventional terminology; lack of scientific rigor in a number of statements; erroneous conclusions regarding the identification of the genealogy of haplotypes in populations and the use of exclusively genealogical rates; ignoring genetic drift and peculiarities of mutations in microsatellite DNA loci. Noting that the haplotype trees presented by Klyosov may be interesting, the team of authors nevertheless pointed out that the consideration of such trees requires great care.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 52
            +4
            But, according to Klesov himself, the cohens awarded him a gold medal for the work he did, and of course they paid for this research.
            This means that they were satisfied with the results.
            And the question they asked Klesov sounded like this: how many Cohens are among the Coens.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 23
              -2
              The first study of Coens' genetic markers was conducted in 1998.
              Academic study on a sample of 215 Coens - in 2009. Found 22 haplogroups. Conclusion: there is no historical connection between different kohens. Moreover, 57% of the Coens were Ashkenazi (immigrants from Europe). In short - 31 Polish cohens, 6 Iraqi, 14 Persian, 22 Austro-Hungarian, etc.
              I have not met any mention of Klesov in Hebrew sources ANYWHERE request
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 April 18 2021 13: 55
                +3
                It was in one of his lectures
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 18 2021 14: 56
                  0
                  I read on the Internet what was awarded to him by the American Coen community (according to one version), and the Organization of South American Jews on the other.
                  Neither organization is familiar to Jews hi
                2. ee2100
                  ee2100 April 18 2021 17: 14
                  +2
                  For what he bought, for what he sold.
        2. the lord
          the lord April 18 2021 14: 03
          +1
          Here is what you quoted as an excerpt, did you read it yourself? It's about nothing. All claims without any specifics with sticking not to facts. but to individual words in reports and to "rigor". At the same time, they are interested in haplogroup trees, but for some reason they require caution.))))) Typical Jewish answer. when they were caught stegically)))) And where is the reasonable criticism. which are you trying to follow and which you are quoting?
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 18 2021 15: 06
            -1
            Want to be specific? Yes please.
            In 2009, a study was conducted of 215 Coens
            Found 22 haplogroups
            The largest - subclade J1 (SNP) J-P58
            How does that agree with Klesov? laughing
            1. the lord
              the lord April 30 2021 00: 04
              0
              This is not specific, as I already wrote about it. It cost a lot for those who wanted to stay in the J1 haplogroup. And this is after so many poromov - I beg you)))
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 30 2021 01: 06
                0
                Was it a lot? lol As I wrote above - the fig? what
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 46
      +3
      And who are the "tartars"? laughing where is their trace in the genes of Russians?
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 24
        -1
        Quote: ee2100
        And who are the "tartars"? laughing where is their trace in the genes of Russians?

        Solyanka of Mongols, "Chinese" and Turks fellow
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 April 18 2021 13: 56
          +3
          Let's say this is your opinion drinks
      2. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 18 2021 15: 07
        0
        Quote: ee2100
        And who are the "tartars"? laughing where is their trace in the genes of Russians?

        Read the Hyperborean Chronicles at the Atlantis National Library fellow
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 April 18 2021 17: 15
          +2
          Are they in electronic form too?
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 18 2021 17: 26
            0
            Order Klesov - will print their translation from Indo-European into Russian)).
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 April 18 2021 17: 40
              +2
              He is a geneticist, not his topic. I will look for!
            2. Konnick
              Konnick April 18 2021 20: 18
              +3
              Order Klesov - will print their translation from Indo-European into Russian

              The phrase is wrong for you - it turns out from Indo-European to Indo-European. In the National Library of Atlantis, literature is in Proto-Indo-European. And for warm-up, check out how Pushkin sounds in Sanskrit
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 18 2021 20: 32
                -1
                The bottom line:
                The moon at the bottom of the strand of the bottom of the head glistens
                And in the forehead gives happiness
                And also seems to be born of power
                Flows like the cleansing river Ganges
                Literary processing
                The moon shines under the scythe
                And on the forehead is a sign of belonging to a higher caste
                Seems like she was born from rape
                Happened along the river Ganges
              2. Konnick
                Konnick April 18 2021 20: 51
                +2
                Happened along the river Ganges

                Which river? And where?
              3. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 18 2021 21: 03
                -2
                Ganges Indian, where Russian Aryans came repeat
              4. Konnick
                Konnick April 18 2021 21: 21
                +2
                https://topwar.ru/95876-sensaciya-ot-genetikov-praslavyane-prishli-v-indiyu-a-ne-naoborot.html
                On VO there is an article by Klesov about this.
              5. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 18 2021 22: 06
                -3
                Is this a sensation? I didn't know at all that someone came to someone laughing
        2. Konnick
          Konnick April 18 2021 20: 56
          +3
          In the Vladimir region there is the Kolp river, it flows into the Sudogda river, and in the Leningrad or Vologda region, I don’t remember, the Kolp river flows into the Suda river. Coincidence? I don't think)
        3. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 18 2021 21: 03
          -1
          This explains a lot laughing
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 19 2021 01: 16
    +2
    Is Plato personally recording?
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 19 2021 02: 05
      -1
      Praplaton - Proto-Indo-European-Aryan hi
  • Usher
    Usher April 18 2021 03: 33
    -1
    Quote: Lannan Shi
    Quote: Krasnodar
    o scientists always stipulate a large percentage of error due to converts (in Jews, for example, or, say, a German donkey in Russia, an Ethiopian in Kenya, a Frenchman in Greece, etc.),

    Klesov asks questions not about the presence of traces of those who could not have been, but about the fact that no traces of those who were, according to the official history, have been found. Here were the first Varangians, in the amount of marketable. Later the Mongols, in an even more marketable. AND??? Where is their genetic trace? Not found ... And so damn it does not happen. There is a genetic trace from a single passage of the French along the Smolensk road, but not from the centuries-old presence of the Varangian-Mongols. And the opponents of Klesov cannot give a clear explanation of this fact.

    And why did you decide that the Mongols should have DNA from the Russians? The Mongols only led to obedience and destroyed the cities in order to plunder and punish. But they did not live in Russia.
    1. Lannan Shi
      Lannan Shi April 18 2021 10: 48
      +6
      Quote: Usher
      Mongols only led to obedience and destroyed cities to plunder and punish

      The Varangians also only led to obedience and destroyed the city? Normanists seem to say something else. And where are these Vikings in Russian genetics? lol
      And the Mongols? Well, if you strenuously pull the owl onto the globe, very strenuously ... Then at least somehow you can pull by the ears the version that the Mongols needed the submission of the cities. It is precisely from them that the classic nomad can have at least something that can at least somehow be adapted to the economy. But the obedience of peyzan did not give up to them. The settled cattle is not suitable for a nomad at all, that is, in no way. She's just to gobble up. And exactly in place. Otherwise it will die. Quickly and efficiently. Grain and other crap - exactly what a complete crap for a nomad. It is problematic to enter into the diet, like wagons - in principle, it is not necessary. Even now, after a century and a quarter of active domestication, the Mongols almost do not use flour. Well, in their version of khinkali, in pasties, and donuts, flour is included. Perhaps that's all. And they eat it as often as we eat sushi or kimchi. And the nomad benefits from the villagers ... As from the penguins in the Sahara. And according to the logic of things, the Mongols should have just cut the village to zero, but the city "forced to constitutional order." Yeah. But the Mongols are like that, the logic does not apply to them, the only power in the world that existed in spite of all the laws of the universe. yes
      PS
      Normanism is simply the clearest option. As having found in one left chronicle, one left entry, the official historians begin to carry such nonsense ... And heap their own conjectures on the obvious lie. yes
      1. Usher
        Usher April 18 2021 11: 28
        -2
        Quote: Lannan Shi
        Quote: Usher
        Mongols only led to obedience and destroyed cities to plunder and punish

        The Varangians also only led to obedience and destroyed the city? Normanists seem to say something else. And where are these Vikings in Russian genetics? lol
        And the Mongols? Well, if you strenuously pull the owl onto the globe, very strenuously ... Then at least somehow you can pull by the ears the version that the Mongols needed the submission of the cities. It is precisely from them that the classic nomad can have at least something that can at least somehow be adapted to the economy. But the obedience of peyzan did not give up to them. The settled cattle is not suitable for a nomad at all, that is, in no way. She's just to gobble up. And exactly in place. Otherwise it will die. Quickly and efficiently. Grain and other crap - exactly what a complete crap for a nomad. It is problematic to enter into the diet, like wagons - in principle, it is not necessary. Even now, after a century and a quarter of active domestication, the Mongols almost do not use flour. Well, in their version of khinkali, in pasties, and donuts, flour is included. Perhaps that's all. And they eat it as often as we eat sushi or kimchi. And the nomad benefits from the villagers ... As from the penguins in the Sahara. And according to the logic of things, the Mongols should have just cut the village to zero, but the city "forced to constitutional order." Yeah. But the Mongols are like that, the logic does not apply to them, the only power in the world that existed in spite of all the laws of the universe. yes
        PS
        Normanism is simply the clearest option. As having found in one left chronicle, one left entry, the official historians begin to carry such nonsense ... And heap their own conjectures on the obvious lie. yes

        You're just ridiculous. According to your logic, all the conquerors were stupid and robbed some kind of cattle? Do you think there were only peasants in Russia? You don't even understand the topic at all. Do you think that at that time they lived like in the Stone Age? No fabrics, no jewelry, no utensils? If what I was born in the Republic of Buryatia. And you will be surprised that in Buryatia there is such a product as "hushshur"))) If you have not read what I wrote, then this does not give you the right to write any nonsense. To lead to obedience is to force people to pay material benefits. This campaign was organized by order. And people went there to fulfill the order of Genghis Khan. And of course it is better to plunder trade cities. This is what the campaign proves, since the Mongols turned back after the practical destruction of most of Russia. And they came to an agreement with Novgorod indirectly through Alexander Nevsky.
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi April 18 2021 14: 25
          +4
          Quote: Usher
          If what I was born in the Republic of Buryatia.

          Congratulations. Well, or I sympathize. As you decide. But I lived and worked in Mongolia. And not in the uhlan bator, albeit crooked and obliquely, but Europeanized, but in the hinterland. So what do you want to tell me about Mongolia based on the Buryat experience? lol
          Quote: Usher
          To lead to obedience is to force people to pay material benefits.

          From material wealth, in the village of 10-17 centuries there were - grain, vegetables, fodder, and cattle. You can try to spend the night with a barn, a cellar, a sennik and a barnyard in addition. I can’t guarantee you success, but before you die ... You will get some impressions. On the most nowhere. I guarantee. yes
          Simply put. The nomad does not need anything from what is available in the villages. So it comes down? And the cities, from which one can have a benefit, have been safely destroyed. Is it possible to create a great empire by acting like a completely insane? If for me, the answer is obvious.
          Quote: Usher
          And they agreed with Novgorod as indirectly through Alexander Nevsky

          Is it through someone who is ethnic, either Swedes, or Norwegians, but with the genotype of the Slavs? laughing Well, judging by the fact that the Ruriks in genetics were ahead of us for decades, if not centuries .... Since they managed to disguise their genotype as Slavic .... And otherwise they were somewhere at the level of development of the century that way, at least 21st. And with dirty nomads they had not to negotiate, but to drive like cockroaches. laughing
          1. Usher
            Usher April 18 2021 17: 54
            -3
            Quote: Lannan Shi
            Quote: Usher
            If what I was born in the Republic of Buryatia.

            Congratulations. Well, or I sympathize. As you decide. But I lived and worked in Mongolia. And not in the uhlan bator, albeit crooked and obliquely, but Europeanized, but in the hinterland. So what do you want to tell me about Mongolia based on the Buryat experience? lol
            Quote: Usher
            To lead to obedience is to force people to pay material benefits.

            From material wealth, in the village of 10-17 centuries there were - grain, vegetables, fodder, and cattle. You can try to spend the night with a barn, a cellar, a sennik and a barnyard in addition. I can’t guarantee you success, but before you die ... You will get some impressions. On the most nowhere. I guarantee. yes
            Simply put. The nomad does not need anything from what is available in the villages. So it comes down? And the cities, from which one can have a benefit, have been safely destroyed. Is it possible to create a great empire by acting like a completely insane? If for me, the answer is obvious.
            Quote: Usher
            And they agreed with Novgorod as indirectly through Alexander Nevsky

            Is it through someone who is ethnic, either Swedes, or Norwegians, but with the genotype of the Slavs? laughing Well, judging by the fact that the Ruriks in genetics were ahead of us for decades, if not centuries .... Since they managed to disguise their genotype as Slavic .... And otherwise they were somewhere at the level of development of the century that way, at least 21st. And with dirty nomads they had not to negotiate, but to drive like cockroaches. laughing

            Feel sorry for yourself, lying is not very good. It was the peasants in Russia who were dirty. Who said that the Mongols robbed villages? Can you show me where I said that? Or are you looking between the lines? I just wrote the other way around. You are engaged in demagoguery and rudeness here. Keep a minus and a report.
          2. Usher
            Usher April 18 2021 17: 56
            -1
            Also say that there were no Mongols, and all the peoples around suddenly captured a common glitch in their history. We swam, we know. Typical new historian and rewriter of history. Remember Tartary.
    2. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 28
      -2
      Well, there must have been rapes, there were "consensual", and so on.
      The question is who should be considered the Mongols (who are the yoke) wink
      1. Usher
        Usher April 18 2021 11: 32
        -2
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Well, there must have been rapes, there were "consensual", and so on.
        The question is who should be considered the Mongols (who are the yoke) wink

        You are confusing a gang of a robber with a Mongol army. The Mongols had an iron discipline. The mentality is different. Usually, the practice of taking into slavery was practiced, and everyone else was killed. So where do genes come from?
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 18 2021 12: 05
          +1
          In the army of Batu there were a lot of formations from the conquered peoples. Who said that wearing out or hanging out with a woman in the territories they occupied was considered a violation of discipline? Etc.
          1. Usher
            Usher April 18 2021 12: 08
            -3
            Quote: Krasnodar
            In the army of Batu there were a lot of formations from the conquered peoples. Who said that wearing out or hanging out with a woman in the territories they occupied was considered a violation of discipline? Etc.

            Not a bunch, you are confusing it with a later period. Or has Yana read a lot? For the Mongols, it was considered a priority to fulfill the order, and not to spend time somewhere. They didn't go for a walk.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 18 2021 13: 02
              0
              In the army of Batu? laughing The backbone was Mongolian - the rest were Turks and Chinese. More than a half.
              1. Usher
                Usher April 18 2021 18: 02
                -2
                Quote: Krasnodar
                In the army of Batu? laughing The backbone was Mongolian - the rest were Turks and Chinese. More than a half.

                Your very word “backbone” already implies more than half. And the Chinese were only engineers, sappers. At that time, the Turks had not yet entered in large numbers. Only ancestors of Tuvans and Altaians. Which are far from Tajiks and Tatars whom you mean. The Polovtsians had not yet been completely defeated, the Volga Bulgars were destroyed just before the campaign. So what kind of Turks are we talking about? Do you even know what years we are talking about?
              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 18 2021 19: 01
                +1
                The backbone is not necessarily more than half, the Turks are peoples up to the Volga, such as the Kipchaks (Polovtsians), who were not completely defeated, but who were in large numbers in Batu's army
          2. the lord
            the lord April 18 2021 14: 15
            0
            Well this is where such fiction is printed so that one can believe in unquestioning obedience to the khan at a distance of hundreds from him. atoms and thousands of miles? And when the enemy is defeated and does not resist, but serves in every possible way and pays, but not turn to rest? Read you. dak Türks are the most pedantic and disciplined tribes and peoples!)))) It is only strange that when the Russians reached Turkestan. then they discovered there wretched Asian despotism that was not capable of anything. All the more so to resist the Russians.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 18 2021 14: 59
              -1
              We are here discussing the ethnic composition of Batu's army, and not the quality of life of some Turkic peoples. hi
            2. the lord
              the lord April 30 2021 00: 02
              0
              We are here discussing Norman theory from the perspective of DNA genealogy. And here people are trying to present the Turkut peoples with an analogue of pedantic German 19-20 centuries.
          3. Usher
            Usher April 18 2021 17: 57
            0
            Quote: znavel
            Well this is where such fiction is printed so that one can believe in unquestioning obedience to the khan at a distance of hundreds from him. atoms and thousands of miles? And when the enemy is defeated and does not resist, but serves in every possible way and pays, but not turn to rest? Read you. dak Türks are the most pedantic and disciplined tribes and peoples!)))) It is only strange that when the Russians reached Turkestan. then they discovered there wretched Asian despotism that was not capable of anything. All the more so to resist the Russians.

            What are you making fun of here? At least Subudei and Jebe hike. There the distance to Genghis Khan was more than a thousand versts. You will find out first.
  • the lord
    the lord April 18 2021 14: 08
    -1
    Che? But what about the centuries-old yoke? This is how it means to keep your tax officers on the territory of Russia. rob her, and Russian women (who, by the way, are much more beautiful than Mongolian and Tatar and other Turkic women) cannot even be approached. And this, if you believe history, with the absolute superiority of the Tatars in weapons and military power? Yes, every second of us must be a descendant of Chingizids! Where else can you find such fine women, as in Russia. And she won, all conquered and serves be-here ... if you believe the story ...))))
    1. Usher
      Usher April 18 2021 18: 00
      -1
      Quote: znavel
      Che? But what about the centuries-old yoke? This is how it means to keep your tax officers on the territory of Russia. rob her, and Russian women (who, by the way, are much more beautiful than Mongolian and Tatar and other Turkic women) cannot even be approached. And this, if you believe history, with the absolute superiority of the Tatars in weapons and military power? Yes, every second of us must be a descendant of Chingizids! Where else can you find such fine women, as in Russia. And she won, all conquered and serves be-here ... if you believe the story ...))))

      At the expense of women, you flatter yourself. The taste and color of the markers are different. Today I saw a "yazhemamka" dressed like a caterpillar under tights with a half-bald head and forelock, smoking a cigarette, with a child in a stroller and apparently next to her husband. I would not have imagined such a dream in a nightmare, and then there is a family. You probably don't know history well? What tax authorities are you talking about? Do you know who was collecting tribute in Russia? Hello? This is high school!
      1. the lord
        the lord April 30 2021 00: 07
        -1
        And for whom does the Russian woman of the 13th century taste and taste it? washed in the bath regularly, and even with a choice - you want a redhead, you want a fair-haired. Do you want a brown-haired woman with green, blue evil eyes. gray and brown. The Tatars did not have such a variety and cleanliness. And here is all this defeated and available to the winner. Do you come from Geyrope?
        And the Baskaks collected taxes there (from textbooks). Which in itself is absurd, since there are also considerable armed forces needed to actually carry out such activities. Here the story is reminiscent of the gold found by ours in the last century from a sunken ship. Duck, under this operation, a bunch of troops caught up with the Chekists. And this is in the law-abiding USSR. And there are dense forests and, according to the textbooks, the weakened local government))))
        1. Usher
          Usher April 30 2021 00: 34
          0
          Quote: znavel
          And for whom does the Russian woman of the 13th century taste and taste it? washed in the bath regularly, and even with a choice - you want a redhead, you want a fair-haired. Do you want a brown-haired woman with green, blue evil eyes. gray and brown. The Tatars did not have such a variety and cleanliness. And here is all this defeated and available to the winner. Do you come from Geyrope?
          And the Baskaks collected taxes there (from textbooks). Which in itself is absurd, since there are also considerable armed forces needed to actually carry out such activities. Here the story is reminiscent of the gold found by ours in the last century from a sunken ship. Duck, under this operation, a bunch of troops caught up with the Chekists. And this is in the law-abiding USSR. And there are dense forests and, according to the textbooks, the weakened local government))))

          Another "storyteller" is the alternative leader.
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 April 17 2021 21: 52
    +5
    Quote: ee2100
    And what if they open it and have to rewrite history?

    Just don't need these cattle-mining scandals of intrigue and investigation. History is being rewritten every day, as you put it. New discoveries in archeology, certain documents or other sources, correct ideas about this or that stage of history, about certain historical events.
  • ecolog
    ecolog April 18 2021 00: 06
    -1
    Are you seriously? And in my opinion, if there was a real opportunity to "rewrite history", then there would be quite a few people willing from classical science. This is still not a religion, from which you pull out the conventional "Jesus is not a god, but just a mortal prophet" and everything will crumble.
    Poor Science History. Comedians, mathematicians, biologists climb into it with their unwashed hands ...
    1. the lord
      the lord April 18 2021 14: 19
      0
      But just no. To rewrite history means to nullify the authority of many academics and authorities. It's all over again to search and add everything in a new way. In the end, it is also the claims of the living people to their neighbors and the possibility of even new wars or numerous compensations. Here a lot can be stirred up and revived past conflicts. Very, very many will refuse such rewriting and will shut their mouths to many, even forcibly, so as not to alter anything
      1. ecolog
        ecolog April 19 2021 22: 00
        -1
        It can not be. What does it mean, all that was dug to bury back and forget? When new circumstances are discovered, there is an adjustment, that's all. It happens all the time. For example, improving dating technologies, paleogeography, linguistic dating, etc. For recent events, the opening of archives and the declassification of documents. And nothing, everything is in business.
        1. the lord
          the lord April 30 2021 00: 28
          0
          This cannot be, because this can never be! Believe me, this is ridiculous. And what does it mean "to bury everything that was dug back and forget?" And what did they dig? It's not about what they dug, but how they interpreted it. This is the whole trouble, and this makes history the most pseudoscientific discipline of all scientific disciplines. People who have not ruled the state for a day. Those who did not make anything themselves, did not lead troops and did not gather people for big things, tell us how everything was with the ancients on the basis of the scantiest data and found manuscripts, which, as "the vein of Constantine", are most likely false through and through. And now a method appears that allows you to materially indicate which clan-tribe the deceased belongs to, and the users of this method are accused of racism. And for the past it is very remarkable, since then there were still not enough mixed peoples and belonging to the haplogroup quite specifically indicated who this person was. And many things did not fit together. And as usual in academic science, there was a wave of denial.
          1. ecolog
            ecolog April 30 2021 13: 22
            0
            You misunderstand the scientific method of knowing. I'm talking about a complex of sources and methods of study that allows assume that it was so and so. And the frontal reading of the chronicles, usually 200-400 years later than written-rewritten, is closer to the time of Tatishchev, who was engaged in science in his free time from the main work.
            It is possible that "DNA-ginealogy" can be added to these sources as one more factor, nothing more. It's not special, I don't know how much the same Klyosov and others like them are lying or not.
            "Academic science", well, xs, in my opinion there is a constant process of rethinking history based on the emergence of new methods and new data. Moreover, History is a fairly young science.
            It is mainly racologists who are accused of racism, and it is by no means historians who are accused.
  • Konnick
    Konnick April 18 2021 20: 58
    0
    Trolling in the first turn of Klesov. He offers everyone joint activities, but in reality only Artamonov went to such a contact.

    They also laughed at Schliemann, but this non-historian, non-archaeologist took and dug up Troy.
  • IS-80_RVGK2
    IS-80_RVGK2 April 17 2021 21: 35
    0
    I have read criticisms of some of his opponents. The general level is somewhere the level of the plinth. When they begin to ascribe to him on the fly what he did not say, this is no longer a criticism, but a banal garbage stream of lies. And besides, they don't understand what he writes about at all. This is how humanitarians climb to criticize mathematics. But I will make a reservation right away that he does not cause much confidence in me. His individual theories are too fantastic and have a pronounced nationalist flavor.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 21: 58
    +1
    Quote: Krasnodar
    But in his hobby, and genetics is just a hobby for him, he is an amateur, professionals, both here and in the West, his work is considered a profanation

    It’s strange. It is Klesov who is the developer of DNA genealogy. And suddenly there are some "professiolnaly" who consider DNA genealogy a profanation. Very strange.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 17 2021 22: 11
      +4
      Klesov is not the founder of "ethnic genetics", let's call it that. Back in the 80s, a research report was published (from what interested me, so I read it), which says that all modern Ashkenazi Jews originally descended from 6-7 women. For example. But - reservations.
      Converts. Rape. Adultery. Marriages with descendants of converts. Assimilation and return to Judaism. Other.
      With Klesov, everything is too smooth, like the ethnos lived in a vacuum
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 22: 17
        +3
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Klesov is not the founder of "ethnic genetics"

        You have not listened at all to what Klesov is talking about. But he specially emphasized for you - DNA genealogy has nothing to do with ethnicity. For once, be patient and listen to what he is talking about. And carefully, so that neither wife nor children distract.
        Quote: Krasnodar
        let's call it that.

        Not you called, not you and rename
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 17 2021 22: 19
          +1
          Does it have anything to do with history? ))
          He became famous as the author of "DNA Genealogy", which he promoted as a new science that studies population migration and the genetic history of mankind

          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 22: 24
            +4
            Quote: Krasnodar
            Does it have anything to do with history? ))

            Isn't population migration history? Isn't the expulsion of the Jews and their scattering throughout the world - the history of the Jewish people?
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 18 2021 00: 24
              +2
              Is an
              However, the Jews have long ceased to be "carriers of the same gallogroup", but a bunch of different racially, genetically, mentally and linguistically different peoples.
              But with Klesov everything is cooler fellow
              We can already with good reason call the Proto-Slavs Aryans, instead of the faceless R1a1, and even more so instead of the awkward “Indo-Europeans” or “Proto-Indo-Europeans”. They are Arias, dear reader, Arias. And there was nothing "Indo-Iranian" in them, before, of course, until they came to India and Iran. And they did not receive their language from India or Iran, but, on the contrary, brought their own there. Aryan. Proto-Slavic. Sanskrit. Or Proto-Sanskrit, if you like ... Aryan languages ​​are the basis of European languages, Sanskrit, and "Indo-European" Iranian languages. On the Dnieper, Don and Ural-river, there were not “Iranian-speaking peoples”. The Slavs lived there, the Proto-Slavs, the Aryans, and this was their language. They brought their language to India, Iran, Afghanistan "
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk April 18 2021 11: 03
                -1
                Quote: Krasnodar
                But with Klesov everything is cooler

                Klesov's THEORY appeared on the basis of DNA research of fossil remains of people. And what is your denial of his THEORY based on?
                Contrast this with your THEORY. Who forbids?
                But you are broadcasting - COOL, carrying a negative connotation.
                I do not refute Klesov, not because I agree, but because I DO NOT KNOW the truth. Do you refute it because you KNOW the truth? So reveal it to us!
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 53
                  +1
                  I'm not a geneticist. As for Klesov, from the very little knowledge I have at my disposal, I know that for the conclusions he made, we need to know more characteristics of mutations, choose a base gallotype, know the lifespan (on average) of one generation, environmental conditions and other variables. Otherwise, we cannot establish the "antiquity" of the ancestors of the Slavs, the age of Moses, etc. no one has such reliable data, so Klesov's arguments are far-fetched
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk April 18 2021 14: 15
                    -1
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    ... I know that in order to reach his conclusions, we need to know more characteristics of mutations,

                    We? I don’t know why you need knowledge that you don’t need in your life. It is impossible to know everything. But Klesov knows and speaks about the order of numbers and letters following, for example, R1a. but there, in addition to the letter, is a six-digit number, if my memory serves me right.
                    But I seem to guess why you, without having any knowledge in this area, so took up arms against Klesov - he did not confirm the myth that the Jews are the most ancient people on Earth. He dared (!!!) to say that these were the Arias.
                    Let me emphasize that I have nothing to do with this, either positively or negatively. After all, the dispute is not over yet. And it is unknown. whether it will ever be over. I just want to understand - on the basis of what knowledge you, and people like you, complain about Klesov.
                    For your complete understanding of my position - I do not take Klesov's conclusions as the ultimate truth.
                    One thing is indisputable - Klesov has several orders of magnitude more knowledge on the subject than you, who criticizes him. Nonsense!
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 18 2021 16: 02
                      0
                      1) laughing I do not need this knowledge, but researchers, including Klesov, for the conclusions he publishes.
                      2) According to the results of an academic study in 2009, among 215 modern Cohens (Jews, descendants of Aron, brother of Moses), 22 haplogroups were found. Largest - J-P58 (J1)
                      To attribute them to one haplogroup, not to mention entire nations, is nonsense.
                      3) Did the Jews ever claim the primacy of antiquity? Even in the Old Testament it is written that Abraham became the first representative of my nation, from the non-Jewish city of Urra (near modern Basra), so your opinion about the Jewish claim to antiquity is nothing
                      4) I make fun of Klesov on the basis of absurd statements - in every small town in the Netherlands you will find several gallogroups, and not one for a whole ethnic group laughing
                      5) I am not criticizing him, but genetics. I am indifferent to him, as well as his theories, which seem ridiculous to the maximum. hi
                    2. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 13: 52
                      0
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      ... not I need this knowledge, but researchers, including Klesov, for the conclusions he publishes.

                      Did you listen carefully to his conclusions? He says that such and such a haplogroup was identified in the investigated remains, the ARCHEOLOGISTS date them to such and such a year, the conclusion is that people with this haplogroup lived in this territory during the period indicated by the ARCHEOLOGISTS. Everything!!! Further, following the instructions of the ARCHEOLOGISTS, he traces the migration of this haplogroup. Everything!!!
                      Further, he calls on archaeologists, linguists, historians and others involved in the joint work. And what are we seeing in response to this call? - You went to the farm to catch butterflies because you are a radish. Repin's painting ...
                    3. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 00
                      0
                      Well, if 215 people of a very small subgroup of one people have 22 gallogroups, why can conclusions be drawn there? laughing
                    4. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 11
                      0
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      Well, if 215 people of a very small subgroup of one people have 22 gallogroups, why can conclusions be drawn there? laughing

                      Are we talking about a PEOPLE or a small subgroup? laughing laughing
                    5. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 17
                      0
                      So if a small subgroup has 22 of them, then in the whole people there are many times more of them. laughing
                    6. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 25
                      0
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      So if a small subgroup has 22 of them, then in the whole people there are many times more of them. laughing

                      Do not cast a shadow over the wattle fence.
                    7. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 36
                      0
                      So 2x2 doesn't equal four? laughing
                    8. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 48
                      +1
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      So 2x2 doesn't equal four? laughing

                      In fact, one cunning Jew accountant answered this question like this - how much do you need? wassat
                    9. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 59
                      0
                      Oh
                      If you already write, write correctly:
                      Depending on whether I buy or sell fellow
                    10. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 19: 06
                      +2
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      Oh
                      If you already write, write correctly:
                      Depending on whether I buy or sell fellow

                      Well, I'm not a Jew. In such matters, it is written to us to make mistakes. laughing
                    11. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 20 2021 19: 10
                      0
                      But, always exclusively in your favor lol
                    12. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 19: 11
                      0
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      But, always exclusively in your favor lol

                      Oh, okay, you flatter me undeservedly. request
                    13. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 20 2021 19: 13
                      0
                      Not personally to you, not personally wink laughing
                    14. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 19: 16
                      +1
                      Quote: Krasnodar
                      Not personally to you, not personally wink laughing

                      Fu-oo-oo, well, glory, you know who, it was relieved from the heart.
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter April 17 2021 22: 01
    0
    Yesterday I asked Voros about the origin of the Agitsk language. Who were the Celts and Normans? What was ahead? wink Normans ((English Normans, German Normannen, Norman Normaunds, French Normands, Latin Normanni - "Northern people") is a term used in relation to the Scandinavians, who devastated the states of Western Europe from the VIII to the XI century by sea robbery raids.

    Part of one of the Scandinavian tribal formations - the Danes - settled on the northern coast of France, where they recognized nominal vassal dependence on the Franks. Another part, mainly Norwegians, settled in East Anglia, where they mixed with the local population. Many historians identify the Varangians with the Normans.
    but what does linguistics say about this? laughing
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 April 18 2021 02: 50
      +4
      The modern "history" of Russia, written by the "Millers", is false from beginning to end, its basis on the so-called "Norman" theory is no exception. The modern so-called "history", which in a strange way is not based on unshakable postulates, especially in the part enshrined in the Constitution (where has this ever been seen?) Is not a science, it is now a real religion, and nothing more.
    2. Konnick
      Konnick April 18 2021 11: 32
      +1
      And linguistics confirms the origin of the words Swedish, Norwegian, English from one source, this is the Proto-Indo-European language. Let's take the Russian word Sun, the Sun has an inseparable affectionate ending "tse", "ce" (Polish Slonce, Czech Slunce, Serb Sunce). In Western languages ​​this is no longer the case - English. Sun, Latin Swedish Norwegian Sol. Lost respect and the cult of the Sun. Those. Slavic languages ​​are older. And Klesov's research intersects with the hypothesis of the origin of the Proto-Indo-European language in the territory from the Middle Volga to Altai.
  • Evil543
    Evil543 April 17 2021 23: 02
    +4
    Well, everyone believes in what he wants, the main thing is not to impose his faith on others. I'm already looking at three-year-old brandy drinks
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 18 2021 00: 26
      -1
      And I believe that we all happened by the will of Gd and all science is just a long, due to our underdevelopment, the study of the process of creation and functioning from all sides drinks
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 56
        +1
        If you change the word "God" to "higher powers" I agree with you
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 33
          0
          High power; Universal Reason, etc.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 April 18 2021 13: 59
            +1
            Whatever, but certainly not God, the Almighty, etc.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 18 2021 15: 48
              -1
              Почему нет? laughing
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 April 18 2021 17: 16
                +1
                This is overkill, looks like megalomania, this is to the doctor
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 18 2021 17: 26
                  0
                  Whose megalomania? lol
                  1. ee2100
                    ee2100 April 18 2021 17: 41
                    +1
                    Who imagines himself to be
  • ee2100
    ee2100 April 17 2021 20: 33
    0
    A very worthy and informative video. Respected Professor Artamonov for his courage.
    Let's wait for the announced article by Vaschenko.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 22: 04
      -1
      Quote: ee2100
      Let's wait for the announced article by Vaschenko.

      And what will Comrade Beetle tell us ..., is it to blame, Comrade Trilobite owner?
      I would be interested in a comment on the first part of Artamonov's speech and Klesov's answer.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 April 17 2021 22: 25
        +4
        He is a supporter of classical history and to the arguments that were voiced during the discussion, namely, that there are no questions to the method. Historians don't like the interpretation of the results
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 22: 29
          +1
          Quote: ee2100
          during the discussion, namely that there are no questions to the method. Historians don't like the interpretation of the results

          Klesov does not interpret anything. He simply says - "there are such and such marks, but there are no such marks" That's it! And on the basis of this - "Draw conclusions, gentlemen historians." That's all that Klesov says.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 April 17 2021 22: 38
            +4
            You are not entirely correct. The topic of the video is a debunking of the Norman theory, and this is not a conclusion?
            If he only said that the descendants of the Rurik family do not have a "Noman" gene, this is one thing, but he says that all descendants had one ancestor and he was most likely a Balto-Slavic
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk April 17 2021 23: 35
              +3
              Quote: ee2100

              If he only said that the descendants of the Rurik family do not have a "Noman" gene, this is one thing, but he says that all descendants had one ancestor and he was most likely a Balto-Slavic

              And he said ... And in doing so he committed a horrific crime! So?
              Why doesn't he have the right to say so based on his research? And you, in turn, must present your arguments against. But you do not do this, you simply forbid him to speak, draw conclusions. And your fellow thinkers, so they generally declare his activities a profanation.
              Quote: ee2100
              that all descendants had one ancestor and he was most likely a Balto-Slavic

              Prove that he was normal. Now it is already easy to declare that Rurik was not normal enough. Proof is needed.
              1. ecolog
                ecolog April 18 2021 00: 17
                -1
                Yes sane historians, "Normanists" and Rurik call a personality rather legendary.
                Sane historians base their conclusions on comparing the data of written sources, if possible, from different sides, archeological data, etc. And on the basis of these data, they conclude that it was POSSIBLE, it was so and so.
                And here on all this is put a bolt and toys with DNA with far-reaching conclusions.
                As for me, the goal here is that Fomenka, that Klyosov has one - the circulation of their muculature.
                Unfortunately, the larvae they put into immature minds give a serious offspring - this is noticeable from the comments.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 19 2021 01: 23
                  +2
                  Of course, Rurik is a legendary person. So that we reliably know from his biography?
              2. ee2100
                ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 15
                +2
                I am not a supporter of any of the theories. It just doesn't matter, but you're right, now you need proof
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 18 2021 03: 49
        +6
        And what will Comrade Beetle tell us ..., is it to blame, Comrade Trilobite owner?

        The smartest man. And not "Beetle", as you deigned to speak. As well as Krasnodar.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk April 18 2021 10: 11
          +2
          Quote: Pane Kohanku

          The smartest man. And not "Beetle", as you deigned to speak. As well as Krasnodar.

          In the word Beetle ... there is no ending, it is replaced by dots. And you decided to cut off the ending to express your phi to me. Stupid.
          "What will Comrade Zhukov tell us?" (J.V. Stalin) From the film.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku April 19 2021 10: 39
            +2
            And you decided to cut off the ending to express your phi to me. Stupid.

            It's not that "phi" ... wink But I really misunderstood you! hi
            "What will Comrade Zhukov tell us?" (J.V. Stalin) From the film.

            So I also forgot this phrase! request
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk April 19 2021 15: 09
              +2
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              But I really misunderstood you

              Perhaps this is also my share of fault.
              And, for the sake of completeness, I respect all VO users, even if sometimes I am not correct enough, and especially the Trilobite Master. Even though he offended me with his stupid suspicion of Russian chauvinism. hi
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 19 2021 15: 22
                +2
                And, for the sake of completeness, I respect all VO users,

                You will also excuse me sincerely for that comment ... I was wrong, I misunderstood. recourse Let's be kinder to each other!
                Even though he offended me with his stupid suspicion of Russian chauvinism.

                I have known Mikhail for five years, I never had to doubt his mind. I think you can discuss all the points together. hi
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk April 19 2021 15: 32
                  +1
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  Excuse me, too, sincerely for that comment.

                  Let it be for you, you put me, with your apologies, in an awkward position. We have already closed the topic. hi
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku

                  I have known Mikhail for five years, I never had to doubt his mind.

                  I also give credit to his intelligence.
        2. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 18 2021 13: 33
          +1
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          The smartest man.

          Yes. But he is too fixated on the tenets of Normanism, and purposefully seeking their confirmation. At the same time, he categorically denies any alternatives.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk April 19 2021 15: 18
            +1
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            looking for their confirmation. At the same time, he categorically denies any alternatives.

            It is as if the investigator was considering ONLY one version of the crime. Thus, driving himself into the "Procrustean bed". This question, probably, can be solved, but for this it is necessary to connect the AN. So that the issue is decided not by individual enthusiasts of both camps, but by the Academy of Sciences. But NA doesn't want to do this. What if the "alternatives" are right? What then? It's even scary to imagine!
  • Archon
    Archon April 17 2021 21: 04
    0
    There is no way to view the video, I did not learn anything from the article.
    Could tell briefly.
    1. ee2100
      ee2100 April 17 2021 21: 17
      +2
      Read, this is essentially a video theme
      http://tatur.su/dnk/dnk-genealogiya-protiv/
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 17 2021 21: 21
    +3
    Quote: Krasnodar
    he is an amateur, by professionals, both here and in the West, his work is considered a profanation

    Is there a refutation of his theory?
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 17 2021 21: 45
      +4
      scientists always stipulate a large percentage of error due to converts (in Jews, for example, or, say, a German donkey in Russia, Ethiopian in Kenya, French in Greece, etc.), factors of war (rape, migration of a large ethnic population and assimilation among the peoples intending a new land), adultery, etc.
      And Klesov draws conclusions without taking into account the above factors
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk April 18 2021 10: 16
        0
        Quote: Krasnodar
        And Klesov draws conclusions without taking into account the above factors

        Another proof that you do not hear Klesov at all. He draws conclusions based on DNA analysis. What there are, there are such, and what does the raped Jewish women have to do with it.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 36
          +2
          DNA analysis is a very broad concept that includes the study of mutations, etc. Are you talking about genetic markers? laughing
          Given that if the Jews were raped by Poles, Cossacks, Germans and others. Accordingly, the markers change.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 14: 10
            0
            Quote: Krasnodar
            laughing
            Given that if the Jews were raped by Poles, Cossacks, Germans and others. Accordingly, the markers change.

            Not! You did not listen to Klesov from the word at all!
            He claims that the male chromosome is passed from father to son with whatever haplogroup the mother of the son is. And the son, in turn, will also pass it on to his son, and so on ad infinitum. The mother of the child from herself transfers to the son only the color: skin, hair, eyes. She can give him a Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian appearance. But his haplogroup will remain his father's.
            Yes, there will be mutations, but R1a will remain unchanged, and the numbers following R1a indicate the mutation.
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 04
              0
              That's right - if the father is Pole, German, Ukrainian, and the mother is Jewish, the children will already lose the traits of the Jewish people, but the boys from such pregnancies continue to carry their genetic markers to the next Jews. This means that we cannot draw a conclusion about the migration processes of peoples by halo groups. )) Therefore - Klesov about nothing
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 08
                0
                Quote: Krasnodar
                That's right - if the father is Pole, German, Ukrainian, and the mother is Jewish,

                You don't count the number of mixed marriages. In comparison with the population, there are not very many of them.
                Quote: Krasnodar
                Therefore - Klesov about nothing

                Again by. tongue
                1. Krasnodar
                  Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 16
                  0
                  But how can you define anything without taking into account wars, assimilation of other ethnic / racial groups into the general population, etc.
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 24
                    0
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    But how can you define anything without taking into account wars, assimilation of other ethnic / racial groups into the general population, etc.

                    Believe me, there are many things that are inaccessible to my mind, just like yours, I am sure of this. But ... There are enthusiasts who dig deep and make discoveries. And then, with great efforts, they pave the way for their discoveries. And there were times when their discoveries were recognized after their death.
                    1. Krasnodar
                      Krasnodar April 20 2021 18: 29
                      0
                      I agree. But in this case - nonsense.
                      1. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 18: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        I agree. But in this case - nonsense.

                        Well, why such confidence? I am sure it is based on the conservatism of the mind. What is invested in it, it is difficult to knock it out. Himself like that.
                      2. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 20 2021 19: 04
                        0
                        Fill in Google / Yandex "Criticism of Klesov". Read it.
                        Personally, I am a history buff. Accordingly, plus or minus I am familiar with the basis of the formation of one or many so-called. ethnos. Therefore, I do not take Klesov seriously. At the same time, I really respect Klesov as a developer of new anticancer drugs - this is his!
                      3. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 19: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Therefore, I do not take Klesov seriously.

                        Listen, I am not forcing you to somehow treat Klesov differently. I want to understand his detractors. Only.
                      4. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 20 2021 19: 11
                        0
                        Then read his criticism and think about how a nation is formed - any nation.
                      5. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 19: 14
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnodar
                        Then read his criticism and think about how a nation is formed - any nation.

                        It would be more logical, from your side, to give a link. And then suddenly I'll start with Marx, Lenin ...
                      6. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 20 2021 19: 59
                        0
                        https://trv-science.ru/2015/01/dnk-demagogiya-kljosova/

                        https://www.google.ru/amp/s/aif.ru/amp/society/opinion/ob_odnoy_lzhenauchnoy_koncepcii_zamechaniya_o_tak_nazyvaemoy_dnk-genealogii

                        http://www.ras.ru/FStorage/download.aspx?id=5c39c61f-ad0c-4e77-93df-03c9720fa187
                      7. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 21: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnodar

                        https://www.google.ru/amp/s/aif.ru/amp/society/opinion/ob_odnoy_lzhenauchnoy_koncepcii_zamechaniya_o_tak_nazyvaemoy_dnk-genealogii

                        Don't even offer this comrade - I don't trust those who are both a Swiss and a reaper and a gamer. Wherever you go, everywhere, in any questions, this Zhukovberg is a dock.
                        Here is a quote from the second link - = A rigid biological context is imposed on languages: if two peoples have one haplogroup, then their languages ​​must be related. = But this is an obvious lie! Klesov does not have this statement. I wanted to know the author, and there was a whole company of them. I'm sure most of them, without reading the article, just put their signature under it. Ce la vie, as the ancient Zulus used to say.
                        Of course, I will read the entire article, but the titles of the chapters show its direction - without giving any arguments other than general accusatory phrases. I'm not getting anything here. But, nevertheless, I promise to read.
                        The third link does not open.
                      8. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 21 2021 05: 06
                        0
                        The third link on your computer must be opened - there is a PDF file
  • Nikon OConor
    Nikon OConor April 17 2021 21: 25
    +2
    I don't understand such articles. No reviews, no content, nothing at all. The topic is interesting, but basically I will not watch the video, The article is laid out for maximum viewing ... there are already a lot of ads here.
  • Sergey Sfiedu
    Sergey Sfiedu April 17 2021 21: 53
    0
    Supporters of anti-Normanism are sure that these elites had exclusively Slavic roots.

    Come on. Among anti-Normanists, there are plenty of ideas that the Russians had Alano-Sarmatian roots, or even wilder versions.
    "judgments of Anatoly Klyosov are presented"
    Those. you can safely not watch the video.
  • Dimide
    Dimide April 17 2021 21: 57
    +1
    If my memory serves me, in the early 90s I read that all mankind came from southeast Africa and are, to varying degrees, sisters and brothers laughing
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 17 2021 22: 13
      +3
      And I read in Harari that this whole population is a branch of evolved chimpanzees)).
    2. ee2100
      ee2100 April 17 2021 22: 18
      +2
      Klesov believes that Africa has nothing to do with it. He is sure that modern civilization originated on the territory of Altai, and then spread throughout the world.
      1. ecolog
        ecolog April 18 2021 00: 23
        +1
        that is, he also "exposed" anthropologists)))
        It is necessary to incite Drobyshevsky on him)
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 April 18 2021 05: 31
          0
          Just take a look at his works, lectures, videos and it will become clear why he makes such a conclusion.
          You are not reading carefully and you missed the main word in my commentary "modern" laughing
          1. Sergey Sfiedu
            Sergey Sfiedu April 18 2021 21: 07
            -1
            Nobody argues - Klesov is a very modern charlatan.
          2. ecolog
            ecolog April 19 2021 22: 07
            -1
            I'm not an expert in DNA, so I can be smart about trying to sell anything. And I will either have to believe it or not.
            And what does "modern civilization" mean? that the proto-monkey became a man in Altai, and did not stomp in the form of a Cro-Magnon from Africa? In Altai, they found a Denisovan - another dead-end branch, a variant of a man. Not drawn to civilization.
    3. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu April 18 2021 21: 06
      -2
      all of humanity came from southeast Africa
      Clarification - everything non-african Cheklovism emerged from East (without South) Africa. It is believed that in Africa the genetic diversity is a cut higher than in the rest of the world, and all these Caucasians, Mongoloids, Austroloids and other Negritos are just varieties of the East African race.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 17 2021 22: 58
    +4
    Quote: Krasnodar
    And Klesov draws conclusions without taking into account the above factors

    Klesov draws conclusions on the gallp of the group, which is transmitted through his father.
  • Vsevolod136
    Vsevolod136 April 18 2021 00: 05
    +2
    Quote: Krasnodar
    Quote: ee2100
    No one denies the existence of DNA, both as a source of information and its transmission. There is a certain group of diseases that are inherited, there is a group of diseases, the predisposition to which is also inherited. Determination of kinship in a genetic way does not surprise anyone, and so on. etc.
    But with regards to DNA geneology, this is a taboo of terrible power for historians. This theory was immediately written into the anti-scientific,

    Why is it taboo? ))
    There is a lot of research on the so-called. DNA genealogy, but scientists always stipulate a large percentage of error due to converts (in Jews, for example, or, say, a German donkey in Russia, Ethiopian in Kenya, French in Greece, etc.), factors of wars (rape, large migration ethnic population and assimilation among the peoples intending a new land), adultery, etc.
    And Klesov draws conclusions without taking into account the above factors

    On the basis of what work of Klyosov was this conclusion made?
    A quote or a link is obviously available to you, as an expert on DNA genealogy and Klyosov's works))))
  • Konnick
    Konnick April 18 2021 06: 44
    +1
    Academic history has resisted and will continue to resist innovators. Klesov offers cooperation in order to find the truth, and this requires not only historians, but also botanists, biologists, and linguists. But the RAS is not interested in this, since the conclusions of many theses will be refuted. And the resistance will grow. I will give an example with the Zolotarevskoye settlement, where excavation funding is needed. Only 10% of the territory has been excavated thanks to the enthusiasm of Belorybkin

    These excavations can cross out historical dogmas, so the RAS resists these excavations. It is the largest medieval battlefield found in Russia. Moreover, the battlefield remained untouched.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 April 18 2021 09: 14
    0
    I respect these two men of science, but what does this argument mean to us? Suppose the opponents of the Norman theory win, and why are we proud of the victory of the Russian ancestry? At a time when all Russian dissolves into a common subculture. We all became Russians. And it is more and more difficult to prove to a person that he is Russian every decade. Now many people have become religious. And God forbid that they start looking for what nationality was Adam. The fact that the fifth column was removed in the passport already suggests that few people care about national politics. We need to think about what prevents us from living. As Alexander Prokhanov said, nationalist coals are still smoldering in our space. And God forbid flare up.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk April 20 2021 14: 36
      +1
      Quote: nikvic46
      We all became Russians.

      A Russian is citizenship. This is not a nationality. To renounce your nationality means to BETRAY your KIND, to betray your history. Become a mankurt? A man without family, without a tribe, as our ancestors said. The flag is in your hands, only without me.
      I treat all kind people kindly, but I treat my family more kindly. I am bad? I treat all nationalities with respect and do not divide people by nat. featured. But I have great respect for my nationality. Am I a Nazi?
      Quote: nikvic46
      And it is more and more difficult to prove to a person that he is Russian every decade.

      And to whom and why should I prove this?
      1. nikvic46
        nikvic46 April 21 2021 07: 57
        0
        Krasnoyarsk. You called yourself a Nazi with a question. You are not a Nazi. You put on all sorts of things. And the fact that we all became Russians is not true? Check your passport. Once in the fifth column there was a person's nationality, and this did not prevent us from living together without enmity.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk April 21 2021 09: 20
          +1
          Quote: nikvic46
          You called yourself a Nazi with a question.

          This is not me, this is a respected person here, the user suspects me, the son of a front-line soldier, of Russian Nazism.
          Quote: nikvic46
          Is it not true that we have all become Russians?

          Sorry, but you mixed oil and water. They cannot be mixed.
          A Russian is citizenship, belonging to the state. This is a POLITICAL term. Russian, this is belonging to a Family, a tribe (anthropology seems to be). There can be many tribes in the state. As we have, in the Russian Federation, there are more than 160 nationalities (tribes)
          And no one will force me to say that I am not Russian, but Russian. I, initially, first Russian and only then, having received a passport, I become a Russian - a citizen of Russia, but, if politically correct, then - the Russian Federation hi
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier April 18 2021 09: 21
    -1
    The events taking place since the beginning of 2020 should have already shown everyone for what purpose in reality, since the mid-XNUMXs, a campaign for collecting DNA samples has been going on around the world. Obviously, genealogy and history is just a cover.
    The very approach of Klesov, like his "opponent" Drobyshevsky, is pseudoscientific, but nothing more. Naturally, these are Nanai boys.
    Just one good example. Imagine a typical Russian, German, Bashkir and Tajik. So, contrary to what the eyes and common sense say, according to Klyosov, in this four for the Russian, the Tajik will be the closest relative, and for the Germans, the Bashkir will be. Yes, Klesov's supporters will drag out a song about different subclades, but then why divide haplogroup R1 into two groups and prove their almost ontological difference, if the point is in subclades (in fact, and not in subclades)
    Now about the pseudo-patriotic "refutation" of the Norman theory. The "conflict" of Miller and Lomonosov and the theories they voiced are 1749-1750. Could it be that both of them were not familiar with the work of Orbini, published in Russian in 1721? Naturally, this is impossible to assume. Then what was the dispute about, and most importantly - why? And then it turns out to finally cut off the history of Russia from the Gothic history and from the foundations of world civilization. "Slavic" identity was created in Byzantium, promoted by the Vatican (Orbini) and imposed, used and is used to this day in its geopolitical interests by Great Britain. Either a fool or an enemy of the Russian people can promote the "Slavic" identity
  • Vadim Golubkov
    Vadim Golubkov April 18 2021 10: 52
    +1
    Ivan the Terrible united Russia and the Horde into one Country. I have grandparents from the Kuban, Volga, Vladimir, \ he himself is a bald brunette. My ancestors have always said we are Russians. You can go to Borovaya Polyanshchina and the story of getting tired of our village, but not everything is there https://ok.ru/group/52174228422822/topics
    1. Vadim Golubkov
      Vadim Golubkov April 18 2021 10: 54
      0
      https://ok.ru/group/52174228422822/topics
      1. Vadim Golubkov
        Vadim Golubkov April 18 2021 10: 56
        0
        Village My Borovaya Polyana.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 14: 19
    0
    Quote: Krasnodar
    And I read in Harari that this whole population is a branch of evolved chimpanzees)).

    there are versions that chimpanzees are degrading human branches.)))
    1. ecolog
      ecolog April 19 2021 22: 12
      0
      the hobbits from the island of Flores - a degraded branch. And with chimpanzees, we went our separate ways much earlier than we became humans.
      You can "organize" such a branch even now. Just for 100 years to settle on the island a group of 000 thousand and not let anyone out and not let anyone in.