Military Review

Combat aircraft. The king of fighters who was shot down by their own

440

Probably, before starting the story about the Polikarpov I-185 fighter, you should immediately admit that this story will not work out for me impassive and objective. Alas, I can’t do anything about it, because Nikolai Nikolaevich Polikarpov is more than just a designer for me. So I apologize in advance for some distortions in the text caused by a personal relationship to this truly great man.


Today, very often there are materials on the topic "And if", which conclude that if the I-185 went into production, it could become a nightmare for German pilots.


History does not know the subjunctive mood. And everything can be in its alternative versions. In our history, this aircraft did not go into series production. And today it is worth remembering both those who created it, and those whose efforts the I-185 did not take off.

The history of this aircraft began in 1939, when work was underway at the Polikarpov Design Bureau on several models at once. The modernizations of the I-16 and I-153 were being prepared, the VIT-2 attack aircraft and the SPB high-speed dive bomber were created, the I-180 and I-190 fighters were tested.

In general, the designers had something to do. Therefore, it is understandable why Nikolai Nikolayevich conducted the first works independently. He was assisted by ONE person: his deputy Mikhail Tetivkin.

Polikarpov asked the engine builders A. Shvetsov and S. Tumansky for data on their new engines M-90 (Tumansky) and M-71 and M-81 (Shvetsov). Data with drawings was provided. That is, initially, Polikarpov saw his new aircraft with an air-cooled "star", despite the fact that all over the world the craze for water-cooled engines began.

New two-row, air-cooled radial engines ranging from 1600 to 2000 hp. really promised good performance characteristics and in the future they were much superior to the then liquid-cooled motors.

Work went on, but in October 1939 Polikarpov was sent to Germany as part of the first delegation, which was supposed to get acquainted with the achievements of the German aviation industry. A very useful business trip, if not for one "but".

While Polikarpov was working for the good of the Motherland in Germany, his design bureau was defeated. Most of the designers were transferred in various ways to the newly created structure of the OKO (experimental design department).

It is worth mentioning those who did this: plant director P. A. Voronin, chief engineer P. V. Dementyev and designer Artem Mikoyan, behind whom loomed the People's Commissar for Foreign Trade and Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars Anastas Mikoyan.

Today they make an innocent lamb out of Artyom Mikoyan, they say, he didn't want to, he was forced. But the project of the I-200 fighter, the project of which Polikarpov submitted for approval to the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry, was also given to him. In general, it is not known how Mikoyan was forced to become the head of a new design bureau formed for him and accept someone else's project as a gift, but he did not resist for long, as you know.

So the I-200 became the MiG-1, and then the MiG-3.


Source: modernweapon.ru

Mikoyan and Gurevich received their orders (of the Red Star) and prizes. Polikarpov was also given a consolation prize, but was deprived of everything: design bureau, plant, designers.

Polikarpov, deprived of everything, was exiled to the city of Stakhanov (now Zhukovsky), where he was appointed director and chief designer of plant No. 51 and graciously allowed to build this plant and organize the work of all services.

With the group of employees who remained with him, Polikarpov began work in a new place. And not just started, but with a significant advance, having studied what the German designers were working on. Comparing the capabilities of his I-180, which was on the way to the series, and the German Bf 109C, Polikarpov came to the conclusion that he was moving in the right direction. And his I-180 is no worse than German cars.

Combat aircraft. The king of fighters who was shot down by their own

It was clear that after the Bf.109С Messerschmitt would produce more modern vehicles, but the Germans prudently kept silent about the FW.190. So the great instinct of the designer played here. And Polikarpov decided to work on a fighter for himself, different from the one on which Yakovlev, Lavochkin, Mikoyan and Gurevich worked.

Here it is worth throwing a huge lump into the garden of those authors who for many years regaled us with fairy tales about how young designers overtook the luminary Polikarpov. They lied to us for a long time and with taste, but everything is fine here: the history is written by the winners. But the victory of Yakovlev and the company came later, but in the meantime Polikarpov began to work on "Project 62", which eventually became I-185.


The opinion that "Polikarpov was too carried away by biplanes" is still very often encountered. "We needed maneuverable fighters" and other non-specialist nonsense.

The I-16 was a monoplane and a very maneuverable aircraft. I would even say - a unique aircraft in this respect.

But in those years, the scheme of using two aircraft at the same time prevailed: high-speed and high-altitude and maneuverable fighters. And, if you look at the work of Polikarpov, then everything is in perfect order: the high-speed and high-altitude I-185 and the maneuverable I-195 half-plane.


Fighter-195

But Polikarpov considered the I-185 to be the main aircraft. And priority was given to him.


And this plane needed an engine. And with the engines, as always, it was difficult. The M-88 clearly didn’t pull, and the new M-90 and M-71 went with great difficulty and problems.

In general, the first I-185 with the M-90 engine (power 1750 hp, by 1942 brought up to 2080 hp) of the Zaporozhye plant was built in May 1940. Accordingly, then the plane could fly, but ... The engine turned out to be useless for anything. Complete substandard, not passed bench tests and suitable only for blowdowns.

At that time, "new generation" aircraft were just beginning to undergo a test cycle. Yak-1 and others. The I-180 was built in series, so the situation was very stable: give me a motor - there will be a new fighter.

However, bringing to mind the M-90 was delayed and in May 1940 the People's Commissar of the Aviation Industry Alexei Shakhurin decided to come to the rescue. The People's Commissar suggested installing the M-185 engine on the I-71.

The M-71 was not at all the same as the M-90. The M-90 had a short piston stroke, and the M-71 had a long one. The M-71 was heavier and larger in diameter. Under it, the nose of the aircraft would have to be seriously altered. But the M-71 gave 2 hp. and it was very good.


Polikarpov agrees, calculations were made according to which the I-185 with the M-71 could accelerate to 665 km / h, which was a prohibitive speed for Soviet aircraft of that time. It remained to be confirmed in practice.

But time passed, and the motor was not there. Shvetsov's team could not cope with the fine-tuning of the engine to condition. In November 1940, Shakhurin's patience snapped, and he proposed another replacement: the M-81. This is another engine of the Shvetsov Design Bureau, but not 18, but 14 cylinders and, accordingly, with a capacity of only 1600 hp.

Step back? Yes, quite so. But having installed the M-81, Polikarpov was able to lift the plane into the sky and start testing in anticipation of a more powerful engine. The design speed, as expected, dropped to 610 km / h, but still, it remained quite impressive, albeit on paper. A working engine was needed to confirm all this.

The M-81 was also received far from immediately, but only in December 1940. This once again illustrates how “fine” everything was with the Soviet engine builders of that time. But the M-81 did not solve the problems either, because it also turned out to be substandard!

The defective engine was somehow brought into working order and a month after the engine was at Polikarpov's, the I-185 made its first flight. It happened on January 11, 1941.

The defective engine could not deliver the declared power. We flew 16 flights, after which the engine finally "died". But they managed to measure the speed at the ground in one of the flights, it was 495 km / h. Estimated was 500 km / h, that is, everything was more or less normal. Test pilots noted good takeoff and landing characteristics and high controllability of the vehicle.

In March 1941, the order of the Deputy People's Commissar of the AP A.S. Yakovlev to terminate the program, since it was decided not to tinker with the M-81 in favor of more powerful engines.

And only in February 1941, with a delay of almost eight months, Polikarpov received two M-71 engines.

Joy? Not at all. In a complaint filed with the People's Commissariat of the Presidential Administration, Polikarpov reports that the power of the first motor is 15% lower than the declared one, and the weight is 13% more. The second motor gave out the nominal value, but weighed 1079 kg instead of 975.

What is 104 kilograms in excess of the norm in the nose of the aircraft, I think, is not worth talking about.

And the motors worked disgustingly. Forced landings, failures and endless replacement of parts - all this pursued not only Polikarpov, but also Sukhoi, who planned to install the M-71 on his Su-6 attack aircraft.

The result was a complete nightmare: three copies of the I-185 were built (one with the M-90 and two with the M-71) and none of them flew.


Polikarpov went to the end, offering to buy imported motors, since there are no domestic ones, from Pratt and Whitney, Wright or BMW.

Shakhurin went to meet him, but the time had already been lost. They tried to buy BMW.801A in the same February 1941, but the Germans flatly refused to sell the engine. There was no longer such a warm relationship as before. The Americans also did not cooperate, since Roosevelt imposed an embargo on all military supplies due to the Soviet-Finnish war.

The result was a situation where there were no motors.

Here it is necessary to remember and remember the not quite kind word of Alexander Yakovlev. Not so much a designer as Shakhurin's deputy. So it will be more accurate.

So, Alexander Sergeevich made a very tactless phrase in relation to Polikarpov. Speaking about the fact that Polikarpov was in a depressed mood in August 1941, Yakovlev explained it this way: "He perfectly understood ... that to be empty-handed in front of the Motherland in the most difficult time for her is not only a personal failure."

But with empty hands Polikarpov left the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry. It was the fascination with in-line water-cooled motors that almost led to the disaster. But at the end of the same 1940, Polikarpov could have received a masterpiece at his disposal: the Shvetsov M-82, which gave 1700 hp. By that time, the motor had already passed the entire cycle of state tests. A short-stroke "star" of a very small diameter - what could be more successful for an aircraft with an inevitably wide "forehead"?

But the new engine of Shvetsov M-82, with a capacity of 1700 hp. tests passed, but did not go into the series. As unnecessary. Moreover, the Perm plant, at the direction of the NKAP, was ordered to be redesigned for the production of water engines. Which would knock the plant out of action for a year or so.

And only the intervention of the party in the person of the first secretary of the Perm regional committee, Gusarov, who went to report to Stalin in May 1941.


Nikolay Ivanovich Gusarov

Stalin listened to Gusarov, whose reputation, frankly, was extraordinary. But there was an aviation education, and Gusarov understood what he was talking about. Then Stalin listened to Shvetsov separately. And a miracle happened: on May 17, literally two weeks after the showdown arranged by Gusarov, the M-82 went into series. In Perm.

Shakhurin, as an honest man (which he definitely was), takes the blame on himself in his memoirs and says that the NKAP was mistaken in its position on air-cooled motors. And it could easily happen that La-5, La-7, Tu-2 simply would not take off. Because the M-82 did not happen serially. By the way, after the war, the ASh-82 regularly carried a bunch of aircraft and even one helicopter (Mi-4) across the sky.

It would be nice to ask, but alas, there is no one. And I would like to know what the same deputy Shakhurin on new technology Yakovlev was doing? Well, yes, the promotion of new aircraft. Last but not least - our own.

It is clear that the young designers really wanted to do the "King of Fighters". By any means, because I really wanted orders, awards, cars, Stalin's favor.

Probably because the head of the People's Commissariat for Foreign Trade Mikoyan could not buy engines in other countries. And NKAP, significantly rejuvenated, did everything to make the series have the maximum "fashionable" water-cooled engines.

On May 5, 1941, Polikarpov receives an official assignment for an I-185 with an M-82 engine. A month and a half before the start of the war. And in an outrageous mode, the design bureau recycles the fuselage of the aircraft under the M-82. And, as always, Polikarpov does everything and more. That is, there are two options for the fuselage. One is simply "as is" with a new engine, the second is somewhat lengthened and with a reduced midship, purposefully under the M-82 and therefore - with better aerodynamics.

And the narrow, in comparison with the same M-90, the M-82 engine made it possible to wrap around itself a simply terrible battery of THREE ShVAK cannons and two ShKAS machine guns. All this was synchronized with the engine. But it was also possible to install a ShKAS at the root of each wing. That is, three cannons and four machine guns. Moreover, the guns were not located in the wing, which means they fired much more accurately than that of the same Focke-Wulf. And ShKAS with its rate of fire was not important where to stand, he poured his 1800 per minute from anywhere.



The construction of the I-185 with the M-82 was completed on July 19, 1941, and in August it made its maiden flight. And then the tests began. And at the same time, the I-185 with the M-71 engine finally flew. Not only did it fly, the plane also showed a speed of 620 km / h. It immediately became clear to everyone that an air-cooled engine was promising.

What is Yakovlev doing? He simply takes from Polikarpov all the developments on the "stars", especially on the propeller group, and gives it to Lavochkin and Mikoyan. Well, he does not forget himself. As a result, promising models La-5, MiG-9 M-82 (a variant of the MiG-3 with an air engine) and Yak-7 M-82 appeared. The "young designers" caught on ...

Then the work had to be curtailed due to the evacuation. Polikarpov was sent to Novosibirsk. But not to an aircraft plant, as one should have counted on (Yakovlev moved there, to plant No. 153), Polikarpov, as the "king of fighters", was allocated the premises of the Novosibirsk menagerie and the airfield of the local flying club ...

Just estimate: on February 10, 1942, the I-185 M-71 and I-185 M-82A were presented for state tests. On March 28, the tests were successfully completed.


The plane showed itself just fine. The test results, which were signed by the leading engineer of the Air Force Research Institute Lazarev, says the following:

“1) The I-185 M-71 aircraft in terms of its flight characteristics is higher than all existing domestic serial and foreign aircraft.

2) According to the piloting technique and take-off and landing properties, the aircraft is simple and accessible to middle and lower-level pilots ...

... When tested, the aircraft lifted 500 kg of bombs (2x250 kg) and took off and landed with 4 bombs of 100 kg each.

The I-185 M-71 aircraft, armed with three ShVAK-20 synchronous cannons, meets the modern requirements of the front and can be recommended for the Red Army Air Force ... I-185 M-82A ... is second only to the I-185 M-71 , surpassing all production aircraft, both ours and foreign ones ... The technique of piloting is similar to the I-185 M-71, i.e. simple and affordable for pilots below average skill. "

At the same time, do not forget that all this is on motors that are not brought to perfection!

After state tests, front-line pilots flew over the aircraft, who arrived in Novosibirsk for new aircraft.

“After flying the I-185 M-71 aircraft, we report our considerations: speed, maneuverability, armament, ease of takeoff and landing, low mileage and takeoff run, equal to I-16 type 24, survivability in battle, similar to I-16, comparative ease and pleasantness in piloting technique, the possibility of repair in the field, the ease of retraining pilots, especially with the I-16, give the right to recommend putting this aircraft into serial production. "


Signed by the commander of the 18th Guards Fighter Regiment, Guards Major Chertov, and the squadron commander, Guards Captain Tsvetkov.

One could be relieved to say that here it is, a fighter that can break off the propellers of German aircraft. Good flight characteristics, which, as the engines were brought to mind (direct fuel injection on the M-82 gave the La-5FN an increase in speed of 50 km / h), promised to be simply excellent, the most powerful armament of three synchronous cannons with an ammunition load of 500 rounds (La- 5 took 100-120 shells per barrel), all this made it possible to give an answer to the desperate letter of the Air Force Research Institute of December 24, 1941.

In that letter, which was sent first of all to Yakovlev, it was said that according to the test results of the captured Bf-109F in the Red Army Air Force, there is no fighter with flight characteristics better or at least equal to the Messerschmitt.

Yes, today many will say that the NKAP decided to bet on the La-5. But the La-5 in March 1942 was just being tested. And in what kind of underground conditions Lavochkin created it - that is a separate story altogether.

Yes, and La-5 would not have been if not for another party member, first secretary of the Gorky regional committee, Rodionov.


Mikhail Ivanovich Rodionov

There is a version (I believe in it), according to which the same Yakovlev turned out to be the evil genius here, who really wanted his Yak-7 plane with M-82 to be adopted. The plane flew for the first time on February 28, 1942, but did not show anything like that. Speed ​​at an altitude of 571 km / h, at the ground 505 km / h. And the armament was so-so, two wing-mounted ShVAK cannons and one UBS synchronous machine gun.


Yak-7 M-82

And what about the I-185? And Polikarpov was offered to build a reference copy of the I-185 M-71 for mass production. The standard flew in June 1942. The tests were delayed due to the same disruptions in the supply of the motor. The tests at the Air Force Research Institute were also successful. Military trials began in November.


What the pilots reported on the test results, history has kept us. The commander of the 728 IAP, Captain Vasilyaka, wrote a detailed report on the flights on the I-185. Vasilyaka flew on many airplanes, I-16, Yak-1, Yak-7B, LaGG-3, La-5, Hurricane. He flew both Polikarpov's planes, with engines M-71 and M-82.

“The transition from other fighter aircraft to the I-185 aircraft is simple and does not cause any difficulties for the pilots.
Aircraft in flight is easy to control, very stable and without any vagaries.
Takeoff and landing is exceptionally easy.
The advantage of the aircraft is its extremely high maneuverability on verticals, due to its good rate of climb, which makes it possible to conduct air combat with enemy fighters, which is not always possible on Yak-1, Yak-7B and La-5 aircraft.
In horizontal speed, the I-185 has a great advantage over domestic aircraft, as well as enemy aircraft ...
The plane develops speed along the horizon from evolutionary to maximum speed very quickly in comparison with LaGG-3, Jla-5 and Yak. has good pickup.
Aerobatics performs easily, quickly and energetically, similar to the I-16 ...
The I-185 is the best fighter aircraft in terms of its ease of control, speed, maneuver (especially on the vertical), armament and survivability. "


And the reference I-185 M-71 has already surpassed these samples in flight data. In factory tests, test pilot Loginov received a speed of 667 km / h. Specialists from the Air Force Research Institute, the most famous and experienced test pilots P.M. Stefanovsky and P. Ya. Fedrovich.


Petr Mikhailovich Stefanovsky


Pavel Yakovlevich Fedrovich

Stefanovsky was able to accelerate the plane to 680 km / h, and there were attempts to show even greater speed. In some passes, it exceeded the mark of 700 km / h, but a stable flight was not obtained above, mainly due to the quality of the candles, magneto and carburetors. Due to the poor quality of equipment, forced landings took place several times, and even one accident.

Nevertheless, Stefanovskiy gave very positive comments about the aircraft.

"Despite the high load per square meter, the aircraft, thanks to an exceptionally successful combination of shapes, dimensions, excellent wing mechanization and a successful layout ..., has very high speeds and climb rates, good maneuverability and comparative simplicity in piloting technique ..."

Fedrovich wrote, comparing the I-185 with other Soviet machines: “The I-185 M-71 takes the first place in terms of its flight-maneuverable properties and the obtained speeds.

The technique of piloting in comparison with the LaGG-5 and MiG M-82 aircraft on the I-185 M-71 aircraft is simpler and its mastering in combat units will be easier.

The combat qualities of the I-185 M-71 aircraft, which has 3 synchronous cannons with 500 shells, are of the above-mentioned aircraft, and the fatigue of the pilot in flight is less. "


There were also negative moments. Poor engine operation at the design (6250 m) altitude and low reliability of the M-71 were noted.

In addition, the following were noted: a spherical cab visor, distorting the view, no emergency reset of the sliding part of the canopy, tight manual control of the hood blinds and the oil cooler flap.

But the main thing is the Act of state tests. And this document was signed on January 29, 1943 by the head of the Air Force Research Institute, Major General ITS P.A. Losyukov.

"one. The I-1 aircraft with the M-185 design by com. Polikarpov, armed with three synchronous ShVAK-71 cannons with 20 rounds of ammunition, with a fuel supply of 500 kg, is the best modern fighter.

By maximum speed, climb and vertical maneuver, the I-185 with the M-71 surpasses the domestic and latest production aircraft of the enemy (Me-109-2 and FV-190).

2. To recommend to adopt the I-185 aircraft with the M-71 engine and to apply for launching it into large-scale production. The normal flight weight should not exceed 3600 kg.

3. To ask the People's Commissar of the Aviation Industry to demand from the plant No. 19 eliminate defects in the M-71 engine, equip the engine with an air self-start, a compressor and direct injection.

4. To demand from the chief designer comrade. Polikarpov, eliminate the identified defects in accordance with this act and make changes in the drawings for the serial construction of the I-185 with the M-71 ".

Chief Engineer of the Red Army Air Force A.K. Repin approved this act the next day. Preparations for production began in Moscow, at plant # 81.

In turn, the leadership of the Air Force Research Institute turned to Stalin with a request to accelerate the mass construction of an aircraft that in 1943 could correspond to the performance characteristics of German aircraft, and ideally surpass them. Experts from the Air Force Research Institute were talking about an all-metal fighter, the speed of which at the ground would be 550-560 km / h, and at an estimated altitude of 6-7 thousand meters - 680-700 km / h.

Everything seemed to match. The drawings are ready, the plant is approved, the recommendations are from wherever you can eat. All that remains is to work on starting serial production as soon as possible, but ...

But Polikarpov, as if feeling that everything is very bad, writes letters to the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and Stalin, in which he speaks of three years of hard work on a very promising aircraft, which has already passed three series of state tests and has great potential for further improvement ...

Polikarpov was right. And the final decision on the adoption of the I-185 was not followed.


Here you can cite many quotes from the book, which is the main evidence in favor of Polikarpov. This is the same "Purpose of Life" by Alexander Yakovlev. I will not cite, I will not reproach, it is enough that this book contains a LOT of lies. Suffice it to say that in it Yakovlev admits that he simply deceived Stalin when the question of the I-185 came up. And given that the issue was being sorted out by people who knew absolutely nothing (except for the interested Yakovlev) in aviation.

And the I-185 issue was postponed.

Polikarpov fought. He wrote explanatory notes and reports, insisted on the usefulness of his car, but everything was useless. The plane was shot down on takeoff. Moreover, they brought down their own.

The reason was "excessive wing loading". At the beginning of 1942, TsAGI gave birth to a "scientific" work, starting mainly from the data of the Bf-109F-2 and He-100 aircraft, on the basis of which the wing loading threshold was set not higher than 180-185 kg / m2.

Needless to say that the only aircraft that did not fit into this standard was the I-185?


Of course, the question arises: who needed such "special work of TsAGI" in the middle of 1942, if the I-185, Bf-109G-2, FW.190, R-47 "Thunderbolt" and a bunch of lesser-known aircraft?

Moreover, TsAGI for some reason decided to measure the wing load without taking into account the engine power ... In general - "order", as it is.

The I-185 was "ordered" to be produced by other aircraft of other designers. However, it is worth looking into the eyes of the numbers. The Yak-7 with a load of 177 kg / m2 had a vertical speed at the ground of 16,5 m / s, and the I-185 M-71 with a load of 235 kg / m2 - 20 m / s. And the altitude of 5 meters Yak-000 gained in 7 minutes, and I-5,3 - 185 minutes.
Questions? Only to Yakovlev.

Unfortunately, in 1943, if there was an aircraft capable of withstanding the Bf-109G-2 and the FW-190, there was only one: the I-185. A pretty confident statement like that, but true.

For a very long time we were regaled with information about how calmly Yakovlev's light fighters coped with the "overweight" Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs.

Why then did our main air brawler Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin not want to change to the Yak? And during the whole war he was not kicked out of the cockpit of the Airacobra?


By the way, very interesting statistics. If you take the "Top-30" Soviet aces, you get a very interesting picture. If you group the pilots by aircraft, you get the following picture:

LaGG-3, La-5, La-7 - 10 people.
R-39 "Airacobra" - 7 people.
Yak of all models - 7 people.
And 6 more people flew a large number of models, so you can't tell right away on which plane they made the most victories and sorties.

Considering how many "La" and how many "Yak" were produced - the question is understandable, as it were. And the answer is not in favor of Yakovlev.

Already the winter of 1942 at Stalingrad showed the full advantage of the Bf-1096-2 over all Yakovlev fighters (Yak-1, Yak-7, Yak-9) in terms of speed, rate of climb and armament. Even the La-5, first used there, only at the ground had a superiority in speed with afterburner, and already at an altitude of 3-4 km it lagged behind by 15-30 km / h, and by 60 km / h - by 6000 m.

But the I-185 with the M-71 surpassed the Bf-109G-2 at the ground by 75-95 km / h, at an altitude of 3-5 km - by 65-70 km / h, at 6000 m - by 55 km / h, and only at heights of 7,5 - 8 km the speed advantage passed to the Messerschmitt. But on our fronts, no one fought at such a height.

I personally do not understand very well how the Yak-9 with a cannon and a machine gun could fight on a par with the 190 Focke-Wulf. But I didn’t fight then, I’m forgiven.

In general, of course, it is very insulting for how many people were engaged during the war with outright foolishness. Inventing justifications why our aircraft are much better than the German ones, and then they began to explain our losses. Moreover, they did it rather stupidly. Either the bomb racks on the fighters are to blame, or the gasoline is incorrectly poured into the tanks ...

The engine… Yes, with the engines we have always been bad. No engine, no plant ... Serious problems, I agree. But solvable. Polikarpov worked with THREE engines at once. Truly, the King of Fighters, who loved his country so much that he did everything possible for it. And the impossible. Mostly impossible.

But beating our own people has always been something of a national pastime.

The lack of an engine is a very good reason. If with at least one of the engines the I-185 could record its performance characteristics, then there would be fewer claims to Polikarpov. One side.

On the other hand, he would still be beaten in the back.

If the I-185 went into production and began to beat the very Bf-109Gs that the aces could handle with imported equipment, then there would be no special need for La-5. La-5 was weaker than I-185.

And Yakovlev ... Here the Deputy People's Commissar would have had a very difficult time. The I-185 is not Yak-1, Yak-7, Yak-9, or even Yak-3.

The losses of Yakovlev's frankly weak fighters would have been less, because Polikarpov's fighters would have been produced instead. And "Jacob" would have been smaller.

This is normal, the strongest survives in a fight. Therefore, it turns out that Polikarpov and Shvetsov were interested in the serial production of the I-185 ...

But what about Yakovlev? But what about more than 30 thousand fighters? Yes, here the question arises, where are they all. Serious threat.

When, at the beginning of 1942, both versions of the I-185 passed state tests, a real threat hung over Yakovlev's aircraft. After all, both I-185s showed very good data, better than those of the Yaks. Moreover, it was significant, since neither the Yak-1, nor the Yak-7, nor the LaGG-3 can compete with the Bf-109F (I don't even want to talk about G), and many factories are just settling in a new place ...

And the motor was. Yes, the M-82 is not as cool as the M-71, but as practice has shown, it was a Motor with a capital letter. Subsequently. But the Slayer King could see it.


I-185 with M-82

And at Yakovlev, the Yak-7 began to fly with the M-82. Crappy, not like the I-185, but I started. And the armament is weaker, but this is the "trick" of all Yakovlev's fighters.

And the MiG-3 is still out of production. And LaGG-3 was removed. And the only one who can interfere with the coronation of Yakovlev is the real King of Fighters Nikolai Polikarpov. Yes, there Lavochkin is trying to make something out of his LaGG, but these are trifles.

And, by the way, the withdrawal from production of the LaGG-3, which I do not consider a bad plane, the withdrawal of Lavochkin from the Gorky and Novosibirsk factories, the link to Tbilisi ... Luxurious merit of Deputy People's Commissar Yakovlev in helping the designer Lavochkin. Let Semyon Alekseevich secretly create something there, we will deal with him later.

But Lavochkin is a trifle. The main thing is to defeat Polikarpov. But here the Party intervenes. The party is really with a capital letter, which wishes victory to the whole country, and not to Yakovlev.

And on May 6, 1942, on the day the La-5 tests were completed, Yakovlev wrote to Shakhurin: data: Vmax100 force. = 185 km / h, V71 = 0 km / h, t556 = 6170 minutes, and in terms of fire power it surpasses all enemy fighters, including such as the Xe-630 and FV-5000. In view of this, I consider it necessary to immediately launch the military series of the I-5,2 fighter at plant No. 113 in Tbilisi ".

Agree, both vile and shameful.

A beautiful excuse paper, Deputy People's Commissar Yakovlev did not help the designer Lavochkin, because he seemed to be betting on the I-185 with the M-71.

One could take the risk and believe Yakovlev if he wrote this immediately after the end of the I-185 tests. Not in a month. During such a war, thinking for almost 40 days is both shameful and despicable.

And so the M-82 was actually taken away from Polikarpov, because he went to La-5. Because those who think that Polikarpov was mistaken, betting on the M-71, no, dear, you are mistaken. It's just that all the M-82s went to La-5. And for the I-185, only the M-71 remained.

But the factories were also bad. There was a leapfrog with the factories.

At the end of 1941, at plant number 1 in Moscow, the production of the MiG-3 was stopped and the Il-2 was introduced.
At plant No. 153 in Novosibirsk, the Yak-3 was launched instead of LaGG-7.
In 1942, the Omsk plant No. 166 was transferred to the Yak-2 instead of the Tu-9 bomber.
The Yak-82 is being introduced at the Moscow plant # 7.
Factory # 21 managed to remove LaGG-Z, introduce Yak-7, build 5 serial Yaks, and then replay everything and start production of La-5.
At the end of 1943, at plant number 31, instead of LaGG-3, they began to introduce La-5FN, but, having built 5 units. La-5FN, the plant in 1944 switched to the Yak-3 ...

From the above, it is easy to see that no one really thought about "maintaining established production" when it came to the Yak fighters, even such mediocre ones as the Yak-7. It's good to be deputy commissar, isn't it?

I don't want to bash Yakovlev and everyone who helped him. All of them are gone, and I don't see much sense in this.

But I see how our pilots went out against the good fighters of the Germans on airplanes that clearly did not meet the requirements of our time. Even La-7, which is the maximum for its design.

Meanwhile, the I-185 was made earlier and showed its performance characteristics on more unfinished engines.


Sometimes you can hear the following phrase: “We did without the I-185”. We did it. Yes, we did without much in that terrible war: without the elementary readiness of the top leadership of the army and the country for defense, without repressed military leaders. We have done without a lot. And you know what paid for it. Blood.

Forgive me, every such ambition, whether Yakovleva or Petrova, was paid for in blood and did not bring Victory any closer. On the contrary, she alienated her.

Failures with the I-180 and I-185 undermined the health of Nikolai Nikolaevich Polikarpov and he left us at the age of only 52. July 30, 1944. Cancer.


After his death, work on ALL of his projects was discontinued.

At the very beginning, I apologized that the article would not be devoted to the aircraft, but to the Constructor. To the king of fighters Nikolai Nikolaevich Polikarpov. To the great disciple of the great Igor Sikorsky. His struggle for a bright future for the country, which he adored and idolized. And for which he did everything in his power.

The I-185 fighter was the last completed work of Nikolai Nikolaevich.


And this work was great, like everything that the King of Fighters did in his work. Undercover intrigues did not break him, the King simply died. Long live the King and thank him for what he did for this country.

That is, for us.

And the last thing. For all the time, not a single designer from the "young cohort" was able to come close to the indicators that the I-185 had. One can argue for a long time about how the war in the air would have developed if, instead of Yakovlev's fighters, the Germans would have been met by Polikarpov's fighters. But all this will already be from the field of alternative fiction.

But the fact remains that even the over-praised Yak-3, which appeared in 1944, did not reach the aircraft created five years earlier in terms of flight performance. Yes, the Yak-3 was fast and maneuverable. But this was paid for with weapons (initially one ShVAK and one UB) and flight range.

We were generously stuffed with nonsense, such as that the lighter the plane, the more opportunities it has in battle. Let me remind you that the P-47 Thunderbolt is the most efficient fighter in the US Air Force, weighed under 6 tons. That did not prevent him from ripping off the wings of everything that rose into the air. It's not just the mass.

Of course, when it was unrealistic to squeeze more than 1100 hp out of the Klimov engines, which were installed on Yakovlev's fighters, then what are we talking about? That the Bf.109G was 7-300 kg heavier than the Yak-400, but had an advantage of 70 hp?

Or about where more than 30 Yakovlev's fighters were launched into the sky?

We could have a decent answer to all German technology. The king among fighters, created by the mind of the King of fighters Nikolai Nikolaevich Polikarpov. But intrigues and other ugly phenomena of that time did not let him take off. And all that remains for us is the memory of the great man, which just needs to be carefully preserved.

LTH I-185 M-71

Wingspan, m: 9,80
Length, m: 7,77
Height, m: 2,50
Wing area, м2: 15.53

Weight, kg
- empty: 2 654
- normal takeoff: 3 500
- maximum take-off: 3 723

Engine: 1 x M-71 x 2000 hp
Maximum speed km / h
- near the ground: 556
- at height: 630

Practical range, km
- normal: 835
- with a maximum fuel supply: 1 150
Rate of climb, m / min: 961
Practical ceiling, m: 11 000

Armament:
- three 20-mm cannons ShVAK
- 500 kg bombs or 8 x RS-82
Author:
440 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Catfish
    Catfish April 18 2021 05: 25
    +37
    Great article, thank you Roman!
    1. Thrifty
      Thrifty April 18 2021 07: 34
      +10
      Roman, maybe everything is simpler? You forgot to mention the death of Chkalov during the tests of the Polikarpov aircraft, and as a result of this sharp drop in confidence in Polikarpov. They didn’t put him in, they didn’t shoot him, they simply closed the road to the sky for a promising, newest aircraft. The old ones allowed modernization for the country's Air Force, but the new ones were simply not given the go-ahead!
      1. lucul
        lucul April 18 2021 09: 39
        +20
        and the new ones were simply not given the go-ahead!

        This is "who" you have to be in order not to give the go-ahead?
        We look at the photo

        In the photo on the left I-185, on the right La-5, more precisely a converted LAGG-3, with a false side over the old skin. In fact, the first versions of La-5. From the point of view of aerodynamics, the cars are incomparable. Yes, any pilot could understand everything, just seeing two planes live.
        By the way, the author completely lost sight of the fact that the I-185 dived to a speed of 800 km / h (and this with a normal weight of 3600 kg, versus 3300 kg for the La-5), while the La-5 could no longer withstand the speed of 660 km / h and above. And as you know, the responses of all Soviet pilots about the Me.109 were the same - "The Me.109 attacked us from a dive, and dived away from us, even the La-7 did not catch up with it in a dive."
        So, the Me.109 had a dive speed of 750 km / h and could not have pulled away from the I-185.
        The aerodynamic perfection of the I-185 is not worse than the MiG-3, which had a mediocre rate of climb, but due to its excellent aerodynamics, it had high vertical maneuverability when performing a dynamic "slide".
        In fact, I see Stalin's main mistake only in the insufficient allocation of money for R&D of aircraft engines before the war. Pay more attention to aircraft engines (instead of Tukhachevsky's crazy ideas with his 100 tanks), we would have both the M-000 and M-71 in the series before the war, and the USSR would have had an aircraft of the 107 level for 1941.
        1. apro
          apro April 18 2021 09: 46
          +14
          Quote: lucul
          In fact, I see Stalin's main mistake only in the insufficient allocation of money for R&D of aircraft engines before the war.

          And he had enough engineers who made motors ??? the Soviet motor-building school was just getting started. It was going through growth errors.
          This is how money is sometimes allocated today, but there is no one to do it.
          And to judge today what was then not correct.
          1. lucul
            lucul April 18 2021 09: 51
            +4
            And he had enough engineers who made motors ???

            Read about the creation of the tank B-2 (which was installed on the T-34).
            R&D B-2 drove the best engine builders from all over the country and provided ALL the necessary funding, as a result of which this engine is still on all our tanks.
            There just a huge number of engine builders took part, to the detriment of aircraft engines.
            1. apro
              apro April 18 2021 09: 59
              0
              Quote: lucul
              The best engine builders from all over the country were driven to R&D V-2

              One motor. And for the army, aviation and navy, dozens of them are needed. The IVS of Stalin did not have a sufficient number of qualified engineers. And it is not fair to blame him for this.
              1. lucul
                lucul April 18 2021 10: 07
                +9
                One motor. And for the army, aviation and navy, dozens of them are needed. The IVS of Stalin did not have a sufficient number of qualified engineers. And it is not fair to blame him for this.

                The fact of the matter is that engine building is the basis of war, and World War II is a war of engines in the first place, and the USSR did not pay enough attention to engine building.
                For your information, Stalin also built the "Big Fleet" with a bunch of battleships and heavy cruisers, and under them, again, engines, in the end, did not have time in the fleet, but the engine builders were taken to the fleet decently.
                Whatever one may say, but it was precisely the conquest of air supremacy that brought victory in the war, and if our aviation dominated the sky in 1941-1942, then the war would have been completely different.
                So whatever one may say - there is a strategic miscalculation of Stalin with aircraft engines.
                1. apro
                  apro April 18 2021 10: 18
                  0
                  Quote: lucul
                  For your information, Stalin also built the "Big Fleet"

                  I built everything and invested in the industry. And in the sh. But the resources are not rubber. But there were not enough qualified specialists. And they do not grow by order. And they do not multiply by division. They need to grow. And when ???
                  Quote: lucul
                  So whatever one may say - there is a strategic miscalculation of Stalin with aircraft engines.

                  What is the miscalculation ??? he is a manager, not a manufacturer, and relied on available resources and made decisions based on available resources.
                  1. lucul
                    lucul April 18 2021 10: 32
                    +2
                    What is the miscalculation ???

                    God's dew? )))
                    How many tanks were there before the war? How much did you lose in the first weeks of the war due to enemy aircraft? But all this might not have happened, having the M-107 (liquid-cooled engine) and M-71 (air-cooled engine) in the 1941 series.
                    The same LAGG-3 with the M-107 engine (for which it was built) would not be inferior to the Me.109. After all, it is known that in order to achieve certain speeds, a proportional mass of the aircraft is also required, capable of withstanding these loads. The Yak-1 was built under the M-105 engine of 1000hp, hence its light design and a dive speed of only 650 km / h, it was not possible to properly install either the M-107 or M-82 engine on the Yak, due to the flimsy designs, while the LAGG-3 was built for the M-107 engine, with its 1500+ hp and withstand high speeds.
                    1. apro
                      apro April 18 2021 11: 01
                      +1
                      Quote: lucul
                      God's dew?

                      Are they strong in hindsight? Weakening some directions to the detriment of others would get other problems. And it is not yet known which is worse. It is likely that you want it is not clear how to do it.
                      1. lucul
                        lucul April 18 2021 11: 32
                        +2
                        Are you strong in hindsight?

                        That is the task of the leader - to plan and foresee correctly.
                        Stalin correctly foresaw and foresaw a lot of things, but he made a mistake with engine building.
                        Adopted the slogan - quantity at the expense of quality. After all, the release of everything was planned in tens of thousands of units.
                      2. apro
                        apro April 18 2021 11: 46
                        0
                        Quote: lucul
                        That is the task of the leader - to plan and foresee correctly

                        Golden words. And resources how ??
                        Quote: lucul
                        Adopted the slogan - quantity at the expense of quality

                        The correct slogan, taking into account the worst technical characteristics of Soviet technology.
                      3. lucul
                        lucul April 18 2021 12: 01
                        0
                        The correct slogan, taking into account the worst technical characteristics of Soviet technology.

                        Well, look - without the B-2 engine, the USSR would have lost the war without options. We could not have built either KV or ISs, and even a T-34 with a 400hp gasoline engine would not be the T-34 that we know at all. In tank building, the groundwork was such that we parried all the technological challenges of the Germans. The IS-2 was ready for the Tiger-3, the IS-4 for the Mouse, and there the IS-7.
                        But with the air motors, everything is not so rosy.
                      4. apro
                        apro April 18 2021 12: 05
                        0
                        Quote: lucul
                        Well, look - without the V-2 engine, the USSR would have lost the war without options.

                        But with excellent airplanes. And good IVS Stalin. In your point of view. Practice is the criterion of truth.
                      5. bk0010
                        bk0010 April 18 2021 15: 10
                        +5
                        Quote: lucul
                        Well, look - without the B-2 engine, the USSR would have lost the war without options.
                        Not at all: at the time of its creation, the B-2 was an overcomplicated and unreliable engine. They would have installed deformed aircraft engines, it would have turned out even cheaper.
                      6. Shiden
                        Shiden April 18 2021 21: 35
                        +5
                        During the war, the old aircraft engines were installed on the T34, and they were also on the BT series of tanks. So your words that without B-2 we would have lost, I doubt it.
                    2. Pushkar
                      Pushkar April 19 2021 11: 05
                      0
                      Quote: apro
                      Golden words. And resources how ??

                      Resources are always limited and the effectiveness of the leadership lies in the correct allocation of these resources. In this case, a mistake was made and most of the fault is not I.V. Stalin's.
                  2. ecolog
                    ecolog 1 June 2021 22: 20
                    +1
                    Well, yes, I can see how Stalin gives instructions to the red directors - "More x" № "no comrades!"
                    To accept the country of yesterday's peasants with a thin layer of workers (and not all of them are turners of the 6th grade) and the thinnest layer of engineers, designers and professors. Yes, after a large-scale civil war. And in you, as in China, no one is eager to invest too much and share defense technologies. And in such conditions, to be able to establish at least massive copying of at least something is already a managerial feat of a cosmic scale. How many years have passed there when the MS-1 was riveted by the piece? Despite the fact that RI and in its best years was not a giant of engine building.
                    And the fact that "tens of thousands", so even PMA made it clear that the era of wars of economies has come. That your lovely peacetime cadre army will end in a few months, and your rifles will run out and everything else. And that it is not enough to produce something perfect in small batches. It is necessary in parallel to develop the same engine and prepare the industry for mass production. Otherwise, there won't be enough time to turn around.
                    All this has a price, especially in our conditions.
                2. VO3A
                  VO3A April 18 2021 12: 54
                  -7
                  I want to note an interesting point! "Honest" politicians fought for Polikarpov's planes, but where were the pilots, where were the top flight command personnel? Where? All were arrested and shot! The arrests began in early June 1941! The last group was shot on February 23, 1942. What a savage coincidence?
                  Some with pain remember the loss of the bulk of the aircraft in 1941, and the inaction of aviation! And this is natural, she was beheaded, and the commanders were intimidated ... A separate story, how Yakovlev pushed his raw "shit" into life ... His planes were not accepted by the military, but they were produced at 3 factories without government approval? What is it like ? And why was he not shot for sabotage? Moreover, so that his plane was accepted, he dispersed the military acceptance with denunciations .... By the way, the aviation commanders were accused of falling to the ground Yakovlev's "raw shit" and many pilots were killed and new planes were lost ... Theater of the absurd !!! The raw planes of Yakovlev's "shit" and the "coffins" of Koganovich's son-in-law from the furniture factory fly and fall badly, and the commanders and engineers who oppose this shit are to blame ?! ... Stalin's genius, the ability to choose leaders, reliance on young people - get TOTAL !!!
                  Very similar to the story with the SURURGET and the TU-334 !!! Only instead of Yakovlev, Poghosyan and K, "and again money ... And the result is the same ... History does not teach anything, or rather, its this story, no one knows ...
                3. Genry
                  Genry April 18 2021 14: 12
                  +4
                  Quote: VO3A
                  It is very similar to the story with the SURURGET and the TU-334 !!! Only instead of Yakovlev, Pogosyan & Co. ", and again money ...

                  Witnesses of the Tupolev sect ...
                  Tupolev, like Yakovlev, used his connections to destroy the Myasishchev Design Bureau, Bartini Design Bureau, Design Bureau ..., despite the fact that there were much more advanced developments there. Figs would take off the Yak-242 (MS-21), which will be much better than the Tu-204/214. angry
                4. VO3A
                  VO3A April 18 2021 14: 18
                  +4
                  And I am not defending anyone ... And I have nothing to do with Tupolev ... The Superjet finished off Russian subcontractors in the aviation industry, and this is a fact! And the MS-21 will stand for a long time due to the complete absence of some of our components and the "killed" factories that produced them ....
                5. Genry
                  Genry April 18 2021 14: 23
                  -1
                  Quote: VO3A
                  The Superjet has finished off Russian subcontractors in the aviation industry, and this is a fact!

                  He finished it off by forcing them now to deploy a modern production of components for the updated Superjet and for the MS-21.
                  With the old, there were no prospects.
                  Quote: VO3A
                  MS-21 will stand for a long time due to the complete absence of our components and the "killed" factories that produced them ....

                  2022 - start of deliveries of MC-21 to airlines.
                6. VO3A
                  VO3A April 18 2021 14: 25
                  +4
                  There is no one to deploy, there are no such factories anymore! Do you write from the moon or from kindergarten?
                7. Genry
                  Genry April 18 2021 14: 48
                  +1
                  Quote: VO3A
                  There is no one to deploy, there are no such factories anymore!

                  It was in the days of the USSR that the leaders fought off new orders - they wanted to produce junk, which, although it was without problems, was not needed by anyone.

                  And now you can only hear: "give-give order and more ...".
                  The question is in the time of development - filling the chain of production steps.
        2. Old electrician
          Old electrician April 18 2021 14: 18
          -2
          I read your post and I felt so sorry for the Germans! It's the same shitty flying coffins for the Luftwaffe at the root of the lime! There is only one logical conclusion - the Germans flew on even worse shit, and in the cockpit behind each pilot sat an NKVDeshnik with a revolver ...
        3. VO3A
          VO3A April 18 2021 14: 28
          0
          If a person does not have logical thinking, he cannot draw appropriate conclusions ...
        4. Old electrician
          Old electrician April 18 2021 15: 53
          -4
          If a person does not have logical thinking, he cannot draw appropriate conclusions ...
          - well, please us with your master class!
        5. VO3A
          VO3A April 18 2021 16: 02
          -3
          So I am glad, do you see the number "7" in the red square? And already this fourth circle ends ...
    2. Alexandra
      Alexandra April 19 2021 00: 39
      -1
      The Nazis had flying coffins - Me.210, Hs.129 ... just Nazi flying coffins were not produced in huge numbers, like the crafts of Yakovlev or Ilyushin.

      And yes, most of the Luftwaffe aircraft were not lost on the Eastern Front.
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter April 19 2021 01: 22
      -4
      Quote: AlexanderA
      And yes, most of the Luftwaffe aircraft were not lost on the Eastern Front.

      And on what such a front was "most" of the "Luftwaffe" lost ?! I'm just curious!
      this shit throw, like, "battles for england" please do not offer " am
    4. Alexandra
      Alexandra April 19 2021 02: 07
      +2
      And on what such a front was "most" of the "Luftwaffe" lost ?! I'm just curious!

      It's good that it's interesting. In the West (including the Mediterranean theater of operations and German air defense losses).
      this shit throw, like, "battles for england" please do not offer "

      “So let's start counting: the losses of the Luftwaffe for the period from September 1, 1939 to June 22, 1941, according to the Quartermaster General, amounted to 9980 vehicles.
      1941 According to C. Bergstrom, A. Mikhailov "Black Cross / Red Star", Pacifica Military History, 2000, for the period from June 22, 1941 to December 31, 1941, the Luftwaffe suffered irrecoverable losses and subsequently decommissioned 4653 damaged aircraft , including 3827 on the Eastern Front (p. 255). As far as I know, the value is gleaned from the Quartermaster General's data.
      Thus, we have losses in 1941 of 3827 aircraft in the East and 826 aircraft in the West.
      1942 According to the Quartermaster General, the losses of the Luftwaffe for the period from January 1, 1942 to August 31, 1942 amounted to 8288 vehicles, including 4660 on the Eastern Front, 2121 in Europe and the German air defense system and 1520 vehicles in the Mediterranean theater ... Further, according to W. Murray "Luftwaffe", London-Sydney, George Allen & Unwin, 1985, for the period from September 1 to December 31, 1942, the Luftwaffe lost 1164 aircraft in the East, while in the West 1491 aircraft (from . 107).
      Thus, we have losses of 5824 aircraft in the East and 5132 aircraft in the West.
      1943-44 According to W. Murray, from January 1 to August 31, 1943, the Luftwaffe lost 2962 aircraft on the Eastern Front and 5672 aircraft on the Western Front. According to the Quartermaster General, from September 1943 to October 1944, the Luftwaffe lost 8600 aircraft on the Eastern Front, 12807 in the German air defense system, 9785 on the Western Front and 4468 in the Mediterranean theater of operations.
      I could not find more recent data on the losses of the Luftwaffe.
      Thus, as of October 1944, the losses of the Luftwaffe in the Eastern theater of operations are 3827 + 5824 + 2962 + 8600 = 21213 aircraft, the losses of the Luftwaffe in the Western theater for the same period are 826 + 5132 + 5672 + 12807 + 9785 + 4468 = 38690 plane. If we add to this figure 9980 Luftwaffe aircraft lost before the start of the war in the East, then the arithmetic will take the form 21213: 48670 in favor of the Western theater of operations. In total, 73524 of the 86733 Luftwaffe aircraft lost on the fronts during the war are counted here ... "
    5. yehat2
      yehat2 April 19 2021 10: 51
      0
      this slice, firstly, with the manipulation of statistics through the methods of counting the Germans themselves
      and secondly, it is not entirely correct without taking into account the quality of the machines.
      For example, in the battle for England, the Germans were forced to use a bunch of small-scale junk like do-17.
      in the summer of 41, a huge amount of rubbish also went into battle against the USSR, like whatnots he-51, Italian fiat cr32, etc. And it seems to me that the Germans took into account little of the losses of transport aircraft and mobilized non-combat vehicles, and there were thousands of them. For example, where are the losses of hundreds of fizlers recorded, who were not listed in aviation at all, but were mail and reconnaissance aircraft? In addition, do not forget that on the eastern front there were quite a few other non-German vehicles. For example, Finnish or Romanian or Italian aviation.
      If, nevertheless, to present a more complete picture, then on the eastern front the losses were much higher. In addition, there are reviews of the German pilots themselves, who talked about constant losses, because of which the parts were chronically understaffed.
    6. Alexandra
      Alexandra April 19 2021 12: 07
      -2
      How do you propose to count, with the help of "why should they feel sorry for their bastard, write maybe"? After all, reasoning logically sure you understand that if most of the Nazi manpower, artillery and armored vehicles were destroyed on the Eastern Front, then most of the Luftwaffe aircraft were still destroyed by our Western allies. One must have absolutely no tolerance for Soviet propaganda in order to consider that we also beat them in the air. No, basically we inflicted losses on the Luftwaffe only in 1941. Since June 22. In 1942 (if you take the numbers for the whole year), count it equally. And until June 1941, only they. From 1943 to 1945, mostly they. Even if the losses of the Air Force of all German satellites are counted.
    7. yehat2
      yehat2 April 19 2021 13: 26
      +2
      Quote: AlexanderA
      After all, reasoning logically sure you understand that if most of the Nazi manpower, artillery and armored vehicles were destroyed on the Eastern Front, then most of the Luftwaffe aircraft were still destroyed by our Western allies

      but where does such a conclusion come from ???
      simple example. Where did the 3 most massive bombers of the Reich - Ju-87, Ju-88 and He-111 - die?
      yes, not less than 3/4 on the eastern front!
      transport aviation - 80% of losses - the eastern front.
      except that everything is not so smooth in the fighters, but even there - the Germans suffered heavy losses on the eastern front. Yes, the aces remained and died not often, but the less trained pilots died in the hundreds.
      I repeat, the Allies inflicted serious losses on the Germans only in 2 rather narrow periods.
      The rest of the time the Germans suffered significant losses only in the east.
      by the end of 43, the Germans were faced with the fact that they had completely lost fighter cover throughout the entire zone of the Red Army offensive, and not because someone was redeployed, but because the staff of the staff was knocked out.
      finally, curiosity sometime about the ratio of the air forces stationed on the western and eastern fronts.
      there are a number of reference books and articles that say that there were NEVER more than 2500 aircraft on the eastern front.
      but there are, for example, the memoirs of Guderian, who says that only in the central directions on June 22, they had a grouping of more than 4000 units, and even they were sorely lacking. Another example is the Kursk Bulge. Only in 1 local battle, the Germans concentrated 2050 vehicles, and almost all of them were the latest or even experimental modifications.
      It turns out that only 400 aircraft were left for all other directions?
      It's even too lazy to check, tk. complete nonsense.
      Finally, one last thing. The same Hartman said that the Germans were not at all going to fight with small forces - they were constantly knocked out. At Hartman, 3 wingmen were killed on the eastern front.
      And 2500 units (a thoroughly false statement), however, it exists and this is, in fact, only fighters and bombers, and there was also transport, reconnaissance aircraft. In addition, some of the aircraft were dual-use - up-17, fizler, he-111, ju-52, etc.
      Finally, for some reason everyone forgets about Germany's allies.
      For example, the same Americans met up to 70 fighters when they flew to Ploiesti, mixed German and Romanian forces. Is this the east or west front?
      And when the pilots of the Soviet Air Force shot down an Estonian pilot over Stalingrad, whose losses were it? Most of the southern line of the eastern front was covered by Romanians, Italians and Hungarians from the air. Why nobody counts them ???
  2. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 19 2021 02: 11
    +2
    Quote: Stroporez
    I'm just curious!

    Nothing interesting. The Eastern Front gave the overwhelming majority of losses only during the Barbarossa period. Already in 42, the Allies again took over almost half of the losses, and there the further, the more. In the 44th, less than a quarter of the losses were on the eastern front, and the fighters there were completely with a gunkin nose.
  3. yehat2
    yehat2 April 19 2021 10: 59
    -1
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Already in 42, the Allies again took over almost half of the losses.

    how is this?
    according to the ALLIES, they were able to inflict serious losses only in 2 periods - in the battle of Britain, using the tactical advantages of range and radar, and from the middle of 44, when the number of fighters increased multiple times.
    Between mid-40 and mid-44, the Allies did not significantly disturb Germany in the air. Italy and Romania were much more serious.
  4. Alexandra
    Alexandra April 19 2021 12: 27
    +1
    For example, a thousand bombing raids. The first one took place on the night of May 30-31, 1942. Are you aware that in terms of irrecoverable losses of flight personnel, the USSR is only in fifth place, after Japan, Germany, Great Britain and the United States? It was in the air that our Western allies fought really seriously.
  5. yehat2
    yehat2 April 19 2021 13: 49
    -2
    Quote: AlexanderA
    For example, thousands of bombing raids.

    never flew so much.
    at the end of the war there were several really large raids, the largest of which was on Dresden, involving 600+ machines
    but in 42, rare raids could have a maximum of 3-4 dozen cars. Not only because there were few of them - the allied aviation still stupidly did not know how to organize large operations and for this the infrastructure was not yet ready
    12.05.1940/36/XNUMX XNUMX bombers attacked the outskirts of Berlin for the first time
    moreover, these were old, poorly protected machines. 4 residents were killed.
    Here is the real impact of the allies before age 44.
    Everything changed radically with 3 things - the Americans began to massively supply a huge number of escort fighters, the British and Americans accumulated a significant number of modern bombers and prepared the infrastructure and personnel.
    after that it became difficult for the Germans. And before that, they basically exaggerated the idea of ​​converting bombers and heavy fighters into specialized anti-bomber aircraft, i.e. were not at all afraid of significant losses in the air.
    In addition, it is worth adding how the Germans lost many aircraft on the western front.
    firstly, the mass of inexperienced pilots, because experienced ones were knocked out in the east and other fronts.
    secondly, an unfavorable balance of power, because the Germans often had to attack in a strong minority. The same Gunter Rall said that in the west there were 1 American fighters for every 4 German fighter. Thirdly, the Germans did not have time to equip their aircraft with sufficiently high-altitude machines and often took battle in an extremely unfavorable energy situation.
    All this led to significant losses. But were these battles as serious for the allies as they were in the east? I think no.
    If our aviation acted in the style of the Allies, it would easily reduce its losses by 3-4 times.
  6. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 20 2021 10: 43
    0
    Yes, it is difficult to discuss facts with the person who abolished strategic aviation, whether they were good or bad.
    Quote: yehat2
    this slice, firstly, with the manipulation of statistics through the methods of counting the Germans themselves

    Yes, someone here wrote about German Russophobes who underestimated the losses on the eastern front. It is strange that no one has yet recorded for the USSR that half of the Corsairs that were not lost in battle.
    Quote: yehat2
    without regard to the quality of the machines.
    For example, in the battle for England, the Germans were forced to use a bunch of small-scale junk like do-17.

    What happened was used. In the 45th me-109, there is little rubbish, so now, cry or what?
    Quote: yehat2
    transport aircraft and mobilized non-combat vehicles, and there were thousands of them.

    This is 1-2% of losses. By the way, while trying to supply Rommel, the Germans, of course, never lost their transport aircraft.
    Quote: yehat2
    For example, Finnish or Romanian or Italian aviation.

    What a horror, Finnish aviation. Italian, of course, was mainly in the Mediterranean.
    Quote: yehat2
    then on the eastern front the losses were much higher

    Germans hide losses from Russians (c)
    Quote: yehat2
    yes, not less than 3/4 on the eastern front!

    Did you consider it yourself?
    Quote: yehat2
    Yes, the aces remained and died not often, but the less trained pilots died in the hundreds.

    Ases in the east, west and air defenses of the Reich died almost equally rarely. But the newcomers died where there were many of them. That is, in the air defense of the Reich.
    Quote: yehat2
    2 rather narrow periods

    Autumn 39 - summer 41 and summer 42 - summer 45. There are really only two periods, you are right.
    Quote: yehat2
    by the end of 43, the Germans were faced with the fact that they had completely lost fighter cover throughout the entire strip of the Red Army offensive

    The Germans who lost cover at the same time fought in such a way that Soviet historians begin Iasi - Chisinau in August 44, and not in April. Hartmann, who fought in the Balkans from April to July, recorded 70 aircraft, and what the Red Army was doing all this time - God knows.
    Quote: yehat2
    It turns out that only 400 aircraft were left for all other directions?
    It's even too lazy to check, tk. complete nonsense.

    The fact that you are too lazy to check could not have been specified. The propensity of the Germans to collect aircraft from all over the front in the direction of the main attack is widely known.
    Quote: yehat2
    Most of the southern line of the eastern front was covered by Romanians, Italians and Hungarians from the air

    Romanians, Hungarians, JG52, including 4 two-hundred and 2 three-hundred.
    Honestly, you shouldn't be constantly pushing south. This is an indelible shame on Soviet aviation. 2 air armies and the air force of the Black Sea Fleet fought against one incomplete fighter group of backlashes.
    Quote: yehat2
    Estonian pilot on the piece, these were the losses

    The state of Estonia did not exist. So the loss of the Reich, of course.
    Quote: yehat2
    according to ALLIES, they were able to inflict serious losses only in 2 periods

    This is not allied data, this is your alternate reality. In our reality, the war in the air was constantly fought. The best Western ace of the entire war, Pattle, 51, died in April 41 in Greece. The third German 150tnik Marseilles, he filled all his own in Africa, died in September 42nd. True, two 150tniks from the east, Graf and Gollob, managed to overtake him. The first centurions - Melders, Luttsev, Ezau, rounded up the bill in the East, but as of June 22 they already had 70-80 applications.
    Quote: yehat2
    the largest of which was in Dresden, 600+ cars participated
    but in 42, rare raids could have a maximum of 3-4 dozen cars

    First "raid of a thousand bombers" - Cologne, May 1942.
    Quote: yehat2
    4 residents were killed.

    Down and Out trouble started. Already in November 40, Molotov shares with Hitler the remnants of Britain sitting in a bomb shelter.
    Quote: yehat2
    12.05.1940/36/44 XNUMX bombers ... This is the real impact of the allies before the age of XNUMX.

    Enchanting statement. You would go to Hamburg in the summer of 43, relax, relax.
    Quote: yehat2
    Rall said that in the west there were 1 American fighters for every 4 German fighter.

    Yes, the Americans were able not only to create, as in the east, but also to realize their numerical advantage.
    Quote: yehat2
    serious for the allies, which were going in the east? I think no.

    What do you mean "serious"? The fight is the fight. You can create an advantage - create it.
    Quote: yehat2
    If our aviation acted in the style of the Allies, it would easily reduce its losses by 3-4 times.

    If my grandmother had a B-24. She acted as best she could.
  7. yehat2
    yehat2 April 20 2021 13: 01
    +1
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Autumn 39 - summer 41 and summer 42 - summer 45. There are really only two periods, you are right.

    you are delusional, pointing out rotten figures for periods and not a single attempt to bring facts - sheer trolling and protruding your opinion.
  8. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 20 2021 19: 54
    +2
    Participant AlexanderA kindly gave you the German loss figures. The same information, in an abbreviated form, was given by me.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    The Eastern Front gave the overwhelming majority of losses only during the Barbarossa period. Already in 42, the Allies again took over almost half of the losses, and there the further, the more. In the 44th, less than a quarter of the losses were on the eastern front, and the fighters there were completely with a gunkin nose.

    Nevertheless, you continued to pour from empty to empty and insert unfounded statements, I do not believe, I will not even check, that's all.
  9. yehat2
    yehat2 April 21 2021 09: 17
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Participant AlexanderA kindly gave you the German figures for losses

    There is an excellent vidos of a skyartist who analyzes the incorrectness and complete inadequacy of the figures given by the Germans and used by historians like Timin to draw conclusions.
    read it, and I hope you will receive more references to GERMAN numbers, as I will not see an absolute fact
  10. yehat2
    yehat2 April 21 2021 09: 19
    +1
    this is the same as the advertising for the f-15 is being done now. Officially, this plane was never shot down. Unofficially - one and a half dozen proven episodes.
  11. Torins
    Torins April 20 2021 07: 26
    0
    The allies constantly ironed airfields in Germany, hence a substantial part of the losses of the air defense of Germany and on the western front, well, do not forget that the British pilots, like the American ones, were definitely no worse than ours.
  12. yehat2
    yehat2 April 20 2021 09: 38
    0
    Quote: Torins
    Don't forget that the British pilots, like the American ones, were definitely no worse than ours.

    depending on what
    their average flight experience was indeed much higher than ours.
    so they mowed less with navigation or landing,
    better oriented in large air groups
    but our pilots were even better in their combat aerobatics.
    this was noted by the Germans themselves. They especially noted the ability of our experienced pilots to avoid attacks and squeeze everything out of the car.
  13. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 19 2021 02: 07
    -1
    Quote: AlexanderA
    The Nazis had flying coffins - Me.210, Hs. 129 ...

    And what did Henschel not please? A very interesting car, only with ergonomics trouble.
  14. Alexandra
    Alexandra April 19 2021 13: 22
    -1
    The low level of design demonstrates at least the fact that it was originally expected that the "bird" would fly on 470 strong "Argus". If as a "gun platform" the Hs.129 was definitely better than the IL-2 (the IL in the version with 37 mm cannons simply had to be removed from production), then according to the flight characteristics of the Hs.129, Ilyushin's attack aircraft was inferior, including due to ergonomics. The limiting dive angle of 30 degrees at which the pilot still had enough strength to bring the car into level flight was predetermined precisely by the flawed ergonomics. And the fact that on one engine it could fly only with a decrease ...

    If in the Soviet Air Force the aircraft that demonstrated the statistically the smallest number of sorties per loss was the Il-2 throughout the war, then in the Luftwaffe the 129th Henschel was such an aircraft.
  15. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 19 2021 20: 38
    +1
    Quote: AlexanderA
    statistically, the smallest number of sorties per loss was the Il-2, then in the Luftwaffe the 129th Henschel was such an aircraft.

    Here it was worthwhile to bring the numbers themselves)))
    Quote: AlexanderA
    The low level of design demonstrates at least the fact that initially it was expected that the "bird" would fly on 470 strong "Argus"

    The Germans are well-known junk dealers. By the way, in this place you can tell how "all European industry worked for the Reich." On the example of the second industrial power of the continent.
    Quote: AlexanderA
    armored vehicles were destroyed on the Eastern Front, then most of the Luftwaffe aircraft were still destroyed by our western allies

    )))
    The fleet was forgotten. It's not so easy at the expense of armored vehicles, if you look at the new types, cat lover, this whole story. They were driven almost exclusively to the West.
    Quote: AlexanderA
    Are you aware that in terms of irrecoverable losses of flight personnel, the USSR is only in fifth place, after Japan, Germany, Great Britain and the United States?

    The Yankees and the British flew on buses of 7-10 people, of their losses in flight personnel, there were quite a lot of gunners. Although there are many in the USSR, greetings to Ilyushin. The British have a war twice as long, the Americans have two wars at the same time.
  16. Alexandra
    Alexandra April 20 2021 12: 04
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Here it was worthwhile to bring the numbers themselves)))


    "... The Hs129 was very vulnerable in aerial combat. It is no coincidence that in terms of combat survivability it was several times inferior to the Ju87 aircraft (here, however, the fact that, unlike a dive bomber, the attack aircraft had to stay at low altitudes much longer) Thus, in the 1st assault squadron (1st formation) during the battle on the Kerch Peninsula in May 1942, one Hs129 lost for combat reasons had only 20 sorties (180 aircraft perished in 9 sorties) 188. Thus, the specific losses of Hs129 turned out to be the same as those suffered during the same approximately period (August 1942 - May 1943) by the Soviet Il-2 (26 sorties per one combat loss189) - and should be considered very high. "
  17. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 20 2021 20: 01
    +2
    Thanks for the numbers.
    Quote: AlexanderA
    Thus, the specific losses of Hs129 turned out to be the same as those incurred in the same period (August 1942 - May 1943) by the Soviet Il-2 (26 sorties per combat loss189) - and should be considered very high. "

    As is usually the case, the figures are anti-Soviet. It turns out that the unsuccessful German handicraft - homemade product showed survival slightly worse than the unparalleled Soviet flying tank, Schwarzetodt, concrete bomber, as the Soviet press called it there.
  18. Alexandra
    Alexandra April 20 2021 23: 56
    -2
    An unsuccessful German craft, with the best training of both its pilots and the pilots of the fighters covering it, demonstrated in May 1942 the survival rate was worse than that of the Il-2.

    This demonstrates that this craft was worse than the IL-2.

    As for the Il-2, it would never have entered service with the Red Army Air Force if everything was done according to the accepted procedures and rules. Bypassing these rules, two intriguers, Ilyushin, and his friend, deputy people's commissar of the aviation industry for new technology Yakovlev, managed to convince Stalin that the single Il-2 (and not the two-seater SB (BB-2) Sukhoi (first flight on May 25, 1940) or a single-seat high-speed Su-6 Sukhoi (first flight on March 13, 1941) - the same attack aircraft that the Red Army Air Force needs.

    Unfortunately we did it.
  19. Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 21 2021 00: 55
    0
    Quote: AlexanderA
    An unsuccessful German craft, with the best training of both its pilots and the pilots of the fighters covering it, demonstrated in May 1942 the survival rate was worse than that of the Il-2.

    )) You understand that the order of the numbers is the same.
  20. EvilLion
    EvilLion April 18 2021 14: 22
    +2
    And Stalin made them fly on coffins. Do not forget!

    By the way, study the history of the Tu-334 at least a little, and you will see that the desire to write nonsense about Poghosyan, under which a competitive aircraft was built, and not a Tupolev trough that was already outdated in the drawings, which could only be rolled around the airfield, will disappear.
  21. VO3A
    VO3A April 18 2021 14: 34
    +6
    built a competitive aircraft,

    Have they built or are they still building, or rather assembled from foreign components? And how many more years will it take and a billion dollars? This is the largest "sawing the dough" in Russia with the murder of its own industry and which has not ended yet and will last for decades ...
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion April 18 2021 13: 40
    0
    No matter how much, tanks like the T-26 and BT had insignificant combat value, and not against aviation, which would not get into them corny, but hitting, most likely, will only damage, unless, of course, large bombs are poured along the column, but against conventional infantry and its cannons.
    1. VO3A
      VO3A April 18 2021 14: 08
      +6
      Didn't have combat value against the T-1 and T-2? The main tanks (wedges) of the German troops in the initial period? It depends on how to use them and who uses them! Have you ever thought of such a thought? And taking into account the latter, both the T-34 and KV-1 had no value in the initial period, because most were not lost in battle, but what was in battle was lost mainly due to illiterate use ...
  • bk0010
    bk0010 April 18 2021 15: 08
    +3
    Quote: lucul
    But all this might not have happened, having the M-107 (liquid-cooled engine) and M-71 (air-cooled engine) in the 1941 series.
    And the lend-lease machines, on which they finally managed to start making them in series, where were they supposed to appear before the age of 41? Remember the Pe-8: how many of them did the military want and how much did they actually manage to do due to the lack of engines?
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx April 18 2021 16: 37
      +1
      You could want the Pe-8 as much as you wanted. But under them in the country !!! there was one airfield. Under Moscow.
    2. Shiden
      Shiden April 18 2021 21: 47
      +1
      Wishlist is one thing and the economy is completely different, materials for the manufacture of Pe8 were probably enough for two Pe2-3 or one Il4 and a couple of fighters.
  • niksfromru
    niksfromru April 19 2021 12: 01
    0
    In fact, both the Yak-1 and LaGG were originally designed for the M-106 with a capacity of 1350 hp. - as it was asked in the TTZ. Simply, mastering a new insufficiently proven material - delta wood - Lavochkin was forced to lay larger safety margins.
  • Hagen
    Hagen April 18 2021 14: 18
    +1
    Quote: apro
    What is the miscalculation ???

    I think that the decision to appoint designers to the leadership of the People's Commissariat, combined with design activities, was not entirely correct. Both Yakovlev and Ilyushin suffered from this. Today this is called a "conflict of interest". And the designers themselves were not at all on friendly terms with each other. Tore each other selflessly. And they wrote denunciations against each other in such a way that Tolstoy smoked on the sidelines. They were not "vegetarians". But nevertheless, they were talented and dedicated to their work. Such are the multifaceted personalities ...
    1. VO3A
      VO3A April 18 2021 14: 37
      +1
      Has something changed now?
      1. Hagen
        Hagen April 18 2021 15: 03
        +3
        Quote: VO3A
        Has something changed now?

        Denunciations on paper do not write ... laughing
    2. apro
      apro April 18 2021 15: 07
      -1
      Quote: Hagen
      I think that the decision to appoint designers to the leadership of the People's Commissariat, combined with design activities, was not entirely correct.

      If there was someone to choose from. IVS Stalin needed results. With a lack of time and resources. And if there was at least some prospect of getting a result. In a reasonable time. Then he used it. And do not forget the IVS. Stalin is not seven-headed. He physically could not know everything. And mistakes are inevitable. The fact is that his mistakes in the end turned out to be insignificant before the mistakes of his opponents.
      1. Hagen
        Hagen April 18 2021 16: 14
        +2
        Quote: apro
        IVS Stalin is not seven-headed, he physically could not know everything

        Well what can I say ?! The high level of centralization of the leadership speaks of the large modernization reserve of the control system of the USSR in those years. In general, of course, one must understand that the state was just developing its own system of government and at that time was far from perfect. To be honest, even today there are no absolutely reliable systems of government in the world, communities, political systems. Many flaws in this area are visible only at distances, both geographic and temporal.
  • John22
    John22 April 18 2021 19: 44
    0
    Specialists of all ranks did not need to be arrested!
    1. Alf
      Alf April 18 2021 21: 33
      +7
      Quote: John22
      Specialists of all ranks did not need to be arrested!

      Specialists of all ranks did not have to chat, but to engage in a profession.
  • bk0010
    bk0010 April 18 2021 15: 05
    +6
    Quote: lucul
    The USSR did not pay enough attention to engine building
    Gave everything I could. Even the Brezhnev Soviet Union did not pull out. And now, when the states are clearly degrading, we have not caught up with Pratt-Whitney, the engine of the second stage of the Su-22 is only approaching the F-57 engine, and the F-16 now has an engine that is not only cheap, but also with a lifespan.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx April 18 2021 16: 33
    +7
    The USSR jumped over its head before the war. It is necessary to speak about insufficient attention to something very carefully and considering everything.
    It hurts everyone's smart. Now similar problems have been solved for decades.
  • zenion
    zenion April 18 2021 17: 48
    +6
    lucul. Not only did Stalin build few motors. So, instead of this, he forced to take all the equipment from the territories that fell to the Germans and sent it to the Urals and beyond the Urals. And if he built large fences around these cities, then instead of sending the factories together with the workers to empty places, they could engage in motors, not looking that there were Germans around. So he also ordered, not only that there were no motors, he built universities in order to train specialists. He cut windows not only in Leningrad, but also in the North, in the Arctic. This seemed to him not enough, so he was still engaged in politics, instead of engines. If he only dealt with motors, then the war could have been won in the first half of the year, so he also cut a window in Iran in order to get something there. Few people thought about this, and he had to think not only about the engines, which were the main ones, but also had to think for the people, for supplies, for the roads to and from the front.
  • Shiden
    Shiden April 18 2021 21: 30
    +3
    Quote: lucul
    For your information, Stalin also built the "Big Fleet" with a bunch of battleships and heavy cruisers, and under them, again, engines, in the end, did not have time in the fleet, but the engine builders were taken to the fleet decently.

    Sorry, but leave the fleet alone, what engines they put on battleships and cruisers, for your information, they put steam turbines on them. It's like comparing a steam engine to a turbofan engine of an airplane. Yes, on torpedo, small hunters and armored boats they installed aircraft engines, but one designer Mikulin. In the war, we had to receive packards from the United States. Maybe you mean money.
  • Torins
    Torins April 20 2021 07: 18
    0
    If aviation dominated the air but continued to build the same T-26 and BT-7, then we would definitely lose the war. And the shipbuilding program was curtailed with the beginning of the war. Well, before the war, the fleet had to be built, where without the fleet then?
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. April 18 2021 13: 53
    +3
    Quote: lucul
    Read about the creation of the tank B-2 (which was installed on the T-34).
    R&D B-2 drove the best engine builders from all over the country and provided EVERYONE with the necessary funding

    They themselves would have read it, or what ... With what, nafig, "the whole country"? Trashutin asked to send experienced designers from CIAM to KhPZ - they were sent from Moscow in 1937. The Kharkov BD-2 was frankly raw bullshit, but it was nevertheless stuck in the BT-5 and shown in Moscow in 1934. The Order of Lenin, of course, was handed out to the designers, but the engine, as it was, was so ... and remained. For four (!) Years the Kharkiv citizens were marking time with their diesel engine. The Varangians from Moscow made 2000 (!) Changes to the design, only then the prospect dawned.
    And yes - they stimulated the process not only by funding, orders and nishtyaks, but quite in the spirit of the times - by planting "pests". Trashutin, Bondarenko, Chelpan went to the camp.
  • antivirus
    antivirus April 19 2021 11: 50
    +1
    And he had enough engineers who made motors ??? the Soviet motor-building school was just getting started. It was going through growth errors.

    - this is the main "merit" of any and all "researchers" from the technical level of today to evaluate a semi-literate country and semi-literate boys and girls in 35 -45 years. manufacturability of I185 and YAK and LaGG what?
    the timing of the technical cycle in days-normal hours and the mechanization of manufacturing?

    varied (from the USA and others to Germany) machine tool park of different factories - under which plant was it sharpened and better "fitted" without significant restructuring?
    price in rub?
    ease of repair "on the grass"?
    terms between repairs? unification with others flying?
    seriality of small devices and components?
    not having an analogue in the world did not go into the series only because of personal bickering?
    were semi-literate technicians ready to service it?

    all the best is the main enemy of the good

    it's how to build 10 ABs of 100 V each and what to do with them? if Eurasia seethes and do not use naval aviation in Kazakhstan and the Caspian-Pamir-Termez.
  • Alf
    Alf April 18 2021 10: 05
    +11
    Quote: lucul
    I see Stalin's main mistake only in the insufficient allocation of money for R&D of aircraft engines, before the war

    What does R&D have to do with it? Before the war, designers could have been filled with bags of money, but this would not have added equipment at the factories, and there were few experienced workers. Remind me how the Eighth grade graduates were valued in the USSR before the war? And the fact that holders of higher education were not allowed to go to the front at all? Remember the excellent diesel KODZHU, which they could not produce, it is corny, there is no one and nothing.
    1. lucul
      lucul April 18 2021 10: 12
      -3
      Before the war, designers could have been filled with bags of money, but this would not have added equipment at the factories, and there were few experienced workers.

      We must pay tribute to Stalin - on the main directions of development, which if he saw, then without any problems found for this direction and funds and qualified people.
      But with aviation engines, it was a miscalculation, it was just that rarely anyone could predict then that instead of 1000hp motors, which was considered sufficient, they would suddenly need 2000+ hp motors after just 5 years of war.
    2. VO3A
      VO3A April 18 2021 13: 43
      +4
      For each plane before the war and during the time the designer was paid !!! And do you think Koganovich and his son-in-law "lacquered coffins" at a furniture factory because of love for the Motherland were letting out and Yakovlev, not for himself, but for the Motherland, "his raw shit" imposed on the country ?! Did Polikarpov's design bureau disperse and lure designers to themselves, and steal developments for the sake of intrigue? The leader has money and fame and political loyalty ... All "prominent" people and "big" countries have enough "skeletons in closets" ... And do not forget about this and "point your finger" only towards others ....
    3. CastroRuiz
      CastroRuiz April 18 2021 16: 21
      -3
      Izvestniy dizel Koba Dzhugashvili (KODZHU).
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 April 18 2021 13: 13
    0
    Well, it's not Stalin's fault at all ... it's like saying that for the dirt in the yard it's not the housing office that is to blame but the President)))
  • bk0010
    bk0010 April 18 2021 15: 01
    +2
    Quote: lucul
    The I-185 dived to a speed of 800 km / h (and this is at a normal weight of 3600 kg, versus 3300 kg for the La-5), while the La-5 could no longer withstand the speed of 660 km / h and higher.
    There is an important point here: the La-5 had a lot of wooden parts, and the I-185 was all-metal. The problem was that the bulk of aluminum in the USSR was then produced in Ukraine, that is, it was lost. And which was better: several La-5s or one excellent I-185 - a big question.
    1. Alf
      Alf April 18 2021 15: 30
      +6
      Quote: bk0010
      and the I-185 was all-metal.

      1. bk0010
        bk0010 April 18 2021 15: 35
        +2
        Oh tyzhzhzh ... Thank you, I got it wrong.
        1. Alf
          Alf April 18 2021 15: 39
          +5
          Quote: bk0010
          Oh tyzhzhzh ... Thank you, I got it wrong.

          Not at all, always ready to help. hi
      2. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter April 18 2021 15: 42
        +6
        Quote: Alf
        Quote: bk0010
        and the I-185 was all-metal.


        Greetings! hi drinks Valuable info! good
        1. Alf
          Alf April 18 2021 15: 45
          +3
          Quote: Stroporez
          Greetings! Valuable info!

          Ave! The fact is that usually few people know about a wooden tail.
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter April 18 2021 15: 52
            +1
            Quote: Alf
            The fact is that usually few people know about a wooden tail.

            Honestly, you surprised me! yes
            But tell me, I can't find the Old, I saw somewhere, heard, read that in 40, Germany supplied two squadrons of 109 "Messers" to the USSR ...
            I'm digging and can not find either confirming or refuting information hi
            1. Alf
              Alf April 18 2021 16: 11
              +4
              Quote: Stroporez
              But tell me, I can't find the Old, I saw somewhere, heard, read that in 40, Germany supplied two squadrons of 109 "Messers" to the USSR ...

              Page 40, however, the number is different.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter April 18 2021 16: 13
                +4
                Quote: Alf
                Page 40, however, the number is different.

                Well, from the Soul, thanks! hi good drinks
                1. Alf
                  Alf April 18 2021 16: 15
                  +3
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  Quote: Alf
                  Page 40, however, the number is different.

                  Well, from the Soul, thanks! hi good drinks

                  You are welcome ! soldier
                2. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter April 18 2021 16: 29
                  +4
                  Quote: Alf
                  You are welcome !

                  Book, FIRE !!! And illustrations, without words.
                  Immediately "killed" this one, the last one on top !!!
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. April 20 2021 10: 39
    0
    Quote: bk0010
    And which was better: several La-5s or one excellent I-185 - a big question.


    Is it okay that the La-5 wing, fastened with nails and glue, made of plywood and veneer, with a thickness of 7 to 21 mm, could not withstand dive speeds and sharp maneuvers at high speeds?
    Nails and glue - do not withstand dynamic loads, like rivets.

    An illustration of their 1944 instruction to the La-5 pilots.

    Those. the design of the FW-190 and Bf109G allows a dive speed - 70-100 km / h higher - which was regularly used by German pilots to get out of battle or to get out of attack.
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 April 20 2021 13: 22
      0
      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      lift and glue - do not withstand dynamic loads, like rivets.

      the problem was rather different - the La-5 was a significantly overweight wooden machine
      weighed more than 3 tons, so the withdrawal from the peak gave an additional load in comparison with the all-metal one.Therefore, I do not find any claims to the strength of the wooden structure justified, only to the weight.
      But with the engine and the propeller ... there was just a lack of knowledge of the design, the car was being prepared in a hurry, the engine was also damp, and there were a lot of problems with the production of propellers until the end of the war
  • lelik613
    lelik613 April 18 2021 18: 18
    +1
    In the photo on the right you have a La-5 under the M-71 engine, rather a converted production car. LaGG has a specific lantern with a high gargrot.



  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse April 18 2021 19: 27
    +2
    Quote: lucul
    In the photo on the left I-185, on the right La-5, more precisely a converted LAGG-3, with a false side over the old skin

    In the photo on the left, absolutely definitely NOT I-185 (this is noticeable by the diameter of the hood), and in the photo on the right, the Yak-7 M82 already mentioned by the author.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 April 20 2021 09: 46
    0
    Quote: lucul
    I see only in the insufficient allocation of money for R&D of aircraft engines

    pointless, we just didn't have the right number of technicians.
    in addition, they did not save on this topic at all - just google how much the T-34 engine cost.
    Rather, the claims should be attributed to the work of the technical commission, just under the influence of Tukhachevsky. Instead of years of fruitless games with attempts to buy licenses for the production of engines, it was necessary to buy up engine engineers and hundreds of draftsmen.
  • dauria
    dauria April 18 2021 13: 16
    +5
    they simply closed the road to the sky for a promising, state-of-the-art aircraft.


    An old controversy. In this story, everything must be taken into account. And the state of the factories in the first place. Do you know who and how did LaGGy (and then La-5) in Gorky? Even delta wood was already in short supply, not like spars made of duralumin with steel. The carpenter is the most important profession. Pull out, collect, wrap with keeper tape, glue. Women, kids and a bit of men. Who, where and from what would have made the I-185 at the beginning of the war?
    M-82 on LaGG was already installed by Gudkov on his own initiative a year before Lavochkin. The result is mediocre. As by the way, and Yakovlev. But it was Lavochkin's layout that gave a really decent effect. Without curtailing production. At that time, this was the most important thing. All characteristics of the I-185.
    1. VO3A
      VO3A April 18 2021 14: 00
      -2
      But it was Lavochkin's layout that gave a really decent effect.

      Is that what you call compositing? It was a hastily cobbled together semi-finished product !!! You first study the topic, and then draw conclusions!
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 00
      +3
      Quote: dauria
      Who, where and from what would make the I-185 at the beginning of the war?

      Is it a glider? Those factories that made metal planes. Pe-2, Pe-8, Li-2.
      1. VO3A
        VO3A April 18 2021 14: 02
        0
        Nobody did the Pe-8 during the war!
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 54
          +3
          Quote: VO3A
          Nobody did the Pe-8 during the war!

          Kazan, 22nd plant, 18-20 cars per year.
      2. Alf
        Alf April 18 2021 15: 31
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        Is it a glider? Those factories that made metal planes. Pe-2, Pe-8, Li-2.

        Did these factories work 4 hours a day with two days off?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 18 2021 15: 45
          +3
          Quote: Alf
          Did these factories work 4 hours a day with two days off?

          Well, that is, the USSR was once do metal fighters? Good entry.
          1. Alf
            Alf April 18 2021 15: 50
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Quote: Alf
            Did these factories work 4 hours a day with two days off?

            Well, that is, the USSR was once do metal fighters? Good entry.

            Nowhere, the factories are not rubber. Mustangs were also made only in Dallas and Inglewood, although there were many aircraft factories in the United States. Yes, and Messers, too, somehow not all over Germany were released.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 18 2021 16: 04
              +4
              Quote: Alf
              Nowhere, the factories are not rubber. Mustangs were also made only in Dallas and Inglewood, although there were many aircraft factories in the USA

              I am somewhat shocked by such analogies.

              Let me remind you if you suddenly forgot that the USSR had the opportunity to make metal transport aircraft, but it was not possible to make metal fighters.
              1. Alf
                Alf April 18 2021 16: 06
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                I am somewhat shocked by such analogies.

                I am also shocked that some cannot understand the simple fact that the plant cannot make more than a certain number of aircraft. And the number of factories is finite.
            2. Dmitry V.
              Dmitry V. April 20 2021 11: 42
              -1
              Quote: Alf
              Nowhere, the factories are not rubber.


              The United States built aircraft factories from scratch - before the war, their production was less than that of other allies. On the day at its peak in 1944, up to 30 pieces of B-24 Liberator were produced at a plant in Detroit.
              The USSR was also able to evacuate equipment to the reserved sites and built the roofs of the workshops while the production was running.
              To make rigging - slipways, for aircraft factories - is also quite possible.

              The motor plant is 4-5 times more saturated in foundry, forging and metal-cutting equipment.
              Well, yes - the 21st aircraft plant, it looked more like a carpentry production, with the ensuing manual technology that does not allow to increase production and quality - the individual features of manual technology - the inability to maintain the exact geometry of the airframe (5-7 mm geometry discrepancies after drying the planes and assembly) and uneven strength of the finished structure - material features.
              1. mmaxx
                mmaxx April 23 2021 17: 01
                0
                During the war, we had nothing superfluous at all. And across the United States, tank wedges did not roam. Their losses were 0. The industry was already more powerful. What comparisons can there be in general? What was done in the war in the rear is an even greater feat than at the front. Understanding the industry it is impossible to understand at all how this was done.
    3. John22
      John22 April 18 2021 20: 05
      +2
      And why was it necessary to let ready specialists go to the front, where they, like untrained infantry soldiers, perished? And then women and adolescents would be doing something else.
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 19 2021 11: 58
      +2
      Quote: dauria
      An old controversy. In this story, everything must be taken into account. And the state of the factories in the first place. Do you know who and how did LaGGy (and then La-5) in Gorky? Even delta wood was already in short supply, not like spars made of duralumin with steel. The carpenter is the most important profession. Pull out, collect, wrap with keeper tape, glue. Women, kids and a bit of men. Who, where and from what would have made the I-185 at the beginning of the war?

      EMNIP, the problem with personnel was so acute that the La-5 had to be produced for the first few months without altering the nose section for an air-cooled engine - with the old "narrow" fuselage from LaGG-3 and a fairing over the engine. There was no specialist who would have remade the equipment for a new "wide" fuselage, designed for the M-82.
    5. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. April 20 2021 12: 05
      0
      Quote: dauria
      And the state of the factories in the first place. Do you know who and how made LaGGy (and then La-5) in Gorky? Even delta-wood was already in short supply, not like spars made of duralumin with steel. The carpenter is the most important profession. Pull out, collect, wrap with keeper tape, glue. Women, kids and a bit of men. Who, where and from what would have made the I-185 at the beginning of the war?


      And how is it that in the USA B-24, B-29 were collected by former housewives, farmers and people who were not involved in aviation at all?

      Maybe because it is competently dividing technical processes into elementary ones, which can be performed by an unqualified specialist? And one punching machine replaces a hundred carpenters in production?
      No need to hammer a hundred nails into the veneer to hold the glue joints, putty the wooden wing and polish, paint and varnish and polish again. And after drying, the geometry of the glued wooden wing will lead with a "screw" of 7-15 mm ... - well, nothing, the trimmer will correct minus 12-20 km / h speed - the front will swallow the Russian plywood and the sergeant pilot with 30 hours of flight "take off - landing "a couple of times fired at the cone ...
      But after the war, they will tell legends about the "La-5 victory plane" - this is a mistake laid down even before the war, by transferring plant 21 from the I-16 production to a completely non-technological, but cheap LaGG-1 / LaGG-3 material
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 20 2021 16: 23
        +4
        Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
        No need to hammer a hundred nails into the veneer to hold the glue joints, putty the wooden wing and polish, paint and varnish and polish again. And after drying, the geometry of the glued wooden wing will lead with a "screw" of 7-15 mm ... - well, nothing, the trimmer will correct minus 12-20 km / h speed

        Pomnitz, in besieged Leningrad, in order to replenish the losses of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet in boats, they initially wanted to build MO-4. But they could not find craftsmen in the city who could make wooden "bent" cases. I had to switch to steel and simplified contours - it turned out that it was easier to find or learn welders. This is how BMO appeared.
      2. mmaxx
        mmaxx April 23 2021 17: 03
        0
        Do not forget that the press (and not the punching machine) must be taken somewhere. And then build the technology. During the war. When every plane counts. Not like an airplane. Rifle. All this began to be done immediately after the war. Previously - nothing.
  • Per se.
    Per se. April 19 2021 08: 33
    +1
    Quote: Thrifty
    You forgot to mention the death of Chkalov during the tests of the Polikarpov aircraft, and as a result of this sharp drop in confidence in Polikarpov.
    It's not just the death of Chkalov, Nikolai Nikolayevich predetermined a lot himself, instead of fine-tuning one machine, new projects began. We bought a license for the Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs engine (in the USSR it was designated M-100), a good engine for its time, the I-17 was created for this, which was abandoned, not finished, but it could have turned out to be a good plane.

    Polikarpov was a staunch supporter of air-cooled motors. Even the wonderful I-185 stood for seven long months without an engine, Nikolai Nikolayevich did not want to hear about the possibility of installing a water-cooled engine on the fighter as a temporary alternative, even if the same M-105P, but the car would already have had more chances to go into the series. When new powerful air-cooled engines appeared for the I-185 and the car flew around, it was too late, the war began. As a result, instead of the I-185, our pilots received the La-5 from the LaGG-3, where the M-105P was replaced with the Shvetsov engine.
  • niksfromru
    niksfromru April 19 2021 11: 56
    0
    When Yu. Piontkovsky died under the wreckage of an I-26-I that was crumbling in the air, for some reason this did not cause a "drop in confidence" either in the aircraft or in its designer.
  • Andrey Vlaskov
    Andrey Vlaskov April 19 2021 15: 24
    -2
    Of course, Stalin's entourage is just an excuse to shoot someone! ...
    But seriously, quoting Mark Solonin: “The sad fact is that the death of testers (plural) during the development of new aircraft was at that time not an exception to the rules, but an insurmountable norm. only in the Soviet Air Force ". At the same Yakovlev, Julian Ivanovich Piontkovsky died during the test of the I-26 (hereinafter Yak-1). "He became famous as an outstanding test pilot of all experimental aircraft of the A.S. Yakovlev Design Bureau, from AIR-1 (in 1927) to I-26 (in 1940). In test flights he showed exceptional skill, endurance, courage. record, including the first Soviet world records - range and duration of flight. " And the bloody tyrant did not shoot anyone for this and did not even remove him from work. The tests of the MiG-1 were relatively bloodless, but later, during the development in the Air Force units, a series of accidents and disasters took place, and again they somehow managed without shootings.
    By the way, the accident with Chkalov occurred due to the fault of the engine - it stalled, this is a question with the engine engineers, and not the design of the aircraft itself, I do not want to say that Polikarpov is not to blame, but this is not the same situation as the skin of Yakovlev's fighters flew off the planes and the wing was destroyed in flight (and these are design errors and calculation of the strength of the structure).
    By the way, ask how many Su-24s died during testing in a relatively recent time.
    “Flight tests of Su-24 aircraft were accompanied by a large number of flight accidents. In total, 10 aircraft were lost, including: due to the fault of the design - 3 (breakage of the thrust of the pivot pylon, destruction of the rotation mechanism of the left wing console, failure of the aircraft longitudinal control system), all the rest - due to the AL-21F3 engine (titanium fires and explosions combustion chambers). In addition, 4 Su-24M aircraft were lost in flight tests. Unfortunately, this was accompanied by the death of people. Killed 13 test pilots and navigators of the OKB P.O. Sukhoi, NAZ and State Research Institute of the Air Force: S. Lavrentyev, N. Rukhlyadko, V. Krechetov, M. Yurov, V. Voloshin, Yu. Yumashev, V. Kuznetsov, L. Sorokin , A. Kosarev, V. Kondrat'ev, A. Vlasov, V. Nikitin, G. Gridusov. Eight people escaped and survived: A. Shcherbakov, V. Dashkov, V. Plotnikov, V. Glinchikov, A. Danilin, V. Lotkov, N. Sattarov, O. Tsoi. No other aircraft of our design bureau had such losses. "
    When the Su-24 was put into service, its accident rate was 5-6 drops per year.
  • Anzhey V.
    Anzhey V. April 18 2021 09: 14
    +8
    I support, great article!

    The novel raised an extremely important topic that is constantly overlooked in Russian historiography - the fierce struggle of the political intrigues of the defense industry.
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter April 18 2021 09: 40
    +3
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Great article, thank you Roman!

    I agree! Emotional, but very interesting! good
  • Aerodrome
    Aerodrome April 18 2021 05: 31
    +2
    the article is interesting. but damn it Roman, when do you have time to dig everything up? winked
    1. stepka_razin
      stepka_razin April 18 2021 09: 11
      0
      the article is interesting. but damn it Roman, when do you have time to dig everything up?

      Yes, when I managed to dig for 10 years in liberal circles (and not only) the topic of how in the USSR they tried with all their might to prevent ingenious designers from assembling an over-plane and putting it into production ... And of course Polikarpov with his I-185 always in trend.
      Immediately I recall the serpentine execution prison, although this is probably the next article of the author, we are waiting yes
      Really interesting, similar articles about how Hitler personally with the leadership of BMW in 1939 did not allow Wilhelm Messerschmitt 262 to create there in the German press, or are their authors sent to flat-earthers?
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 18 2021 12: 06
      +4
      the article is interesting. but damn it Roman, when do you have time to dig everything up? winked

      Probably like the former Minister of Culture Medynsky, who wrote a lot of books in a short time.
      1. mr.ZinGer
        mr.ZinGer April 18 2021 21: 35
        0
        Just don't touch Medynsuogo, every book he has is a division.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 19 2021 12: 26
          +1
          Quote: mr.ZinGer
          Just don't touch Medynsuogo, every book he has is a division.

          And you don't even need to touch him - he uncovered himself well.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine April 20 2021 07: 59
            +1
            It seems to me that there can be extremely many questions for Mr. Medinsky. But there are people who will show him exactly Gustav Karlych all their lives. And these are residents of the city, where there is Akhmatovsky bridge, for example.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 20 2021 10: 33
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              But there are people who will show him exactly Gustav Karlych all their lives. And these are residents of the city, where there is Akhmatovsky bridge, for example.

              Duc ... the scale is not the same. The memorial plaque to Gustav Karlovich in St. Petersburg is like a memorial plaque to the certified engineer-architect Alfred Ernst Rosenberg on the Baumanka building. Or Sir Arthur Travers Harris in Hamburg. smile
    3. Walking
      Walking April 18 2021 14: 30
      +4
      Quote: Aerodrome
      the article is interesting. but damn it Roman, when do you have time to dig everything up? winked

      Yes, all this is on the Internet, the site Corner of the Sky, which is easier to write off a little of his added and ready.
  • Sahalinets
    Sahalinets April 18 2021 05: 31
    +15
    How long can you chew it? Well, there was no engine for the I-185, THERE WASN'T! They did not bring the M-71 to mind ...
    1. 2112vda
      2112vda April 18 2021 08: 04
      +1
      Interestingly, what engines did the B-29 clone fly, that is, the Tu-4?
      1. mark1
        mark1 April 18 2021 08: 29
        +4
        The secret is simple - the specific gravity of ASh-73 (without TC) is more than the specific gravity of M-71F by 10% (0,57 versus 0,63). Let's add TC (+ 150 kg) and there will be even more.
        1. KERMET
          KERMET April 18 2021 10: 07
          +1
          There is no point in adding a lot of TC in this case, but adding the resource of both motors (one of which is already in peacetime, and the other in wartime) would be in place.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 01
        +2
        Quote: 2112vda
        What engines did the B-29 clone fly, that is, the Tu-4?

        In 49?
    2. KERMET
      KERMET April 18 2021 08: 24
      +3
      So it can be said and in this way: that the M-82 was brought to mind only after the war
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 19 2021 12: 42
        0
        Quote: KERMET
        So it can be said and in this way: that the M-82 was brought to mind only after the war

        So, in fact, the M-82 was brought to the 1943 year. Prior to that, most attempts to put a formally serial engine on new aircraft ended in engine failures. Plus the problem with the takeoff regime:
        Initially, the "Flight Operations Manual for La-5 M-82A" allowed to keep the take-off mode (1700 hp) at the ground for 5 minutes. The prototype in this mode accelerated to 600 km / h, and at the nominal (1400 hp). from.) only up to 515 km / h. But if the pilot was carried away and did not turn off the afterburner in time. new motor wedged in 10 minutes. and the worked one did not stretch even the allowed 5 minutes. Combat pilots constantly reported that any La-5 of their group did not return from departure due to engine failure in battle. The tests carried out at the LII confirmed the objectivity of the claims, and the use of the afterburner in battle was prohibited.
        1. KERMET
          KERMET April 19 2021 14: 46
          +1
          Have you brought it? Unfortunately, the problems with the ASh-82FN got out again on the La-7, the engines ate up to 40-50 liters of oil per hour, the gradual development of the cylinders, the piston had to be changed after 25-30 hours, the engines more than 50 were simply not nursed
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA April 20 2021 16: 26
            0
            Quote: KERMET
            Have you brought it?

            Well, generally brought. smile
            But the problems remained, yes. The same candle resource is 14 hours (as of July 1943).
    3. unknown
      unknown April 18 2021 08: 57
      +5
      There was no M-71, but there was an M-82.
      Even in our time continues, albeit on a much smaller scale, what was in Soviet times when describing the characteristics of weapons and military equipment. Understatement of data on foreign technology and overstatement of data on Soviet technology. As for the planes, it is enough to recall the series "Aircraft of the Second World War" by the "Wings of the Motherland" magazine for 1973-1975.
      The data of our aircraft were overestimated very simply.
      The results of the reference samples were issued as characteristics of the serial ones.
      In real life, if we cite the data of fighters with air-cooled engines, then the first serial La-5 (five tank) had a speed of 580 km / h, later, La-5 (three tank) - 600 km / h,
      serial La-5FN - 634 km / h, and not a single Serial La-7 had a speed of more than 656 km / h.
      On June 23, 1942, the British obtained a perfectly serviceable FW-190A-3. This aircraft was tested by the British, together with some Allied fighters in the center of combat use. In emergency mode, the British dispersed the German fighter to 668 km / h.
      According to Shavrov, the I-185 I fighter with the M-82 had a speed of 615 km / h.
      1. lucul
        lucul April 18 2021 10: 46
        +1
        According to Shavrov, the I-185 I fighter with the M-82 had a speed of 615 km / h.

        The tests were carried out with an engine take-off power of 1600hp, and with it the La-5 showed 580km / h.
        Put the M-82FN with its 1850hp, then the speed would be different.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA April 20 2021 16: 34
          +2
          Quote: lucul
          The tests were carried out with an engine take-off power of 1600hp, and with it the La-5 showed 580km / h.
          Put the M-82FN with its 1850hp, then the speed would be different.

          There is one more subtle point here.
          All I-185s are either experimental or pre-production vehicles. Hand-assembled by experienced workers, the machines themselves are licked to the limit.
          Experienced La-5s were actually made from production vehicles made at a production plant.
          Therefore, it is impossible to compare them directly - because in our aircraft industry, when put into a series, performance characteristics always fell. The same speed of the production car was consistently lower than the experimental ones by 30-40 km / h.
      2. Per se.
        Per se. April 19 2021 11: 23
        0
        Quote: ignoto
        As for the planes, it is enough to recall the series "Aircraft of the Second World War" by the "Wings of the Motherland" magazine for 1973-1975.
        Yes, it was difficult in Soviet times to find images and reliable information. In "Wings of the Motherland" about the Bf 109G6, I remember, they noted about its speed - "at an altitude of 3000 meters, where mainly air battles were going on" ...
        It should be noted that in reality, in a combat situation, many of our fighters did not even have their original serial characteristics, after numerous repairs between battles. For those who did not close the lantern, who had a worn out or "crippled" motor, patches on the fuselage, it happened that some flew into battle with the landing gear not retracted.
        In any case, aerial combat is not only benchmark or serial indicators, it is both the surprise of the attack, and skill, and Mr.
    4. Alf
      Alf April 18 2021 10: 07
      +1
      Quote: Sahalinets
      They did not bring the M-71 to mind ...

      And if the unfinished M-71 were allowed into a large batch, what would it have resulted in in the course of the war, when the factories were overwhelmed with a wave of complaints?
      1. lucul
        lucul April 18 2021 10: 48
        +1
        And if the unfinished M-71 were allowed into a large batch, what would it have resulted in in the course of the war, when the factories were overwhelmed with a wave of complaints?

        At the end of the war, the Japanese installed the latest engines on aircraft in a more unfinished state.
        1. Sahalinets
          Sahalinets April 18 2021 15: 08
          +2
          And most of their planes were on the ground. Or fought in the air due to engine failures.
      2. KERMET
        KERMET April 18 2021 11: 21
        +3
        Well, at the time of putting into the M-82 series, it was no better than the 71st in terms of reliability, just due to the smaller diameter - universal, the calculation was - to choose one thing to pull the release and fine-tune the two at the same time is more difficult ...
        1. doktorkurgan
          doktorkurgan April 18 2021 19: 51
          +1
          Quote: KERMET
          Well, at the time of the M-82 production, it was no better than the 71st in terms of reliability,

          EMNIP, the M-82 had a less intense temperature regime. And it was brought to working condition by May 22.05.1941, 71. And the M-1942 was brought to working condition only by the fall of XNUMX.
          1. KERMET
            KERMET April 18 2021 21: 10
            +1
            No, you were wrong. The M-82 engine was the most heat-intensive of all similar aircraft engines in the USSR (surpassing new models such as the M-71 and M-81)
            Moreover, the 50-hour tests of the M-71 passed a month earlier (which is not surprising, they began to develop it long before the 82nd) ​​.But in May 41, a decision was made to launch the M-82 series, which at that time had not yet worked 100 hours
            1. Alexandra
              Alexandra April 19 2021 00: 49
              -3
              This is the most mysterious thing in the history of Shvetsov's engines - why in May 1941 it was decided to launch the M-82 into series, for which at that time not a single aircraft was developed, and not the M-71, for which the I-185 and Su-6.

              I suspect here, too, Yakovlev tried. Firstly, the M-71 (unlike the M-82) on its Yaki, well, definitely did not get up - it was too heavy and powerful. Secondly, the launch of the M-82 instead of the M-71 in the series automatically deprived the Polikarpov and Sukhoi aircraft of the engine for which they were developed in May 1941.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 19 2021 02: 16
                +2
                Quote: AlexanderA
                the decision to launch into the series the M-82, for which at that time not a single aircraft was developed, and not the M-71

                Well, after all, a double seven is much easier. Compare how much we fiddled with the Wright 3350 when the Wright 2600 had flown relatively smoothly for a long time.
                Yakovlev, of course, is still a fruit, but still you shouldn't go as far as conspiracy theories.
                1. Alexandra
                  Alexandra April 19 2021 13: 57
                  0
                  The M-71 passed the tests 50 hours earlier than the M-82.
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine April 20 2021 08: 07
                    0
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    The M-71 passed the tests 50 hours earlier than the M-82.

                    This is the USSR. There is no need to confuse the stand and the series.
                    1. Alexandra
                      Alexandra April 20 2021 11: 57
                      -1
                      I rely on the opinion of one of those who worked with Shvetsov once obtained in an interview with aviation historian Oleg Rastrenin. Could the M-71 be launched into the series, and not the M-82? They could and quickly. But this motor was not required, but the M-82 was required. Therefore, the M-71 was almost never done. Yes, the USSR, such a USSR - voluntaristic at the level of the top political leadership and directive-planning at other levels. It is not surprising that even without exchanging 70 years "the fish has rotted from the head."

                      Well, who in the People's Commissariat of the aviation industry was profitable to reorient the Perm plant No. 19 to the production of inline V-shaped engines. And then, when Shvetsov, at Stalin's reception, still managed to defend the production of air-cooled engines at the plant, he prepared an order to launch the M-82, not the M-71 series, and persistently "recommend" all aviation design bureaus to work out options for their aircraft with "proactive "with the M-82 engine, and not with the" planned "M-71 - decide for yourself.

                      "By the end of July 1941, there were already 700 new M-82 engines in the factory warehouse, which no one needed ..."

                      Those who researched the topic have already asked the questions "who benefits" and "who is to blame":

                      http://wunderwafe.ru/WeaponBook/Avia/Polikarpov/05.htm

                      "... This document clearly shows why Polikarpov, as Yakovlev wrote in his book" The Purpose of Life "," was overtaken by young unknown designers, creators of MiG, Yak and LaGG fighters "... Only after meeting Shvetsov in early May 1941 and Gusarov and Stalin, there was a decision to transfer the M-82 for state tests, and on May 17 - to launch it in series. But half a year was lost. Shakhurin in his memoirs admitted the underestimation of air-cooled engines was a mistake of the People's Commissariat, which was corrected only in 1942: " With the appearance of the La-5 aircraft, a problem of great national importance was solved. "The question is, what prevented it from being solved two years earlier? Isn't it a desire to overtake the" king of fighters "at any cost? ..."
              2. KERMET
                KERMET April 19 2021 10: 58
                0
                Yakovlev in this
                case to Stalin's question: Which of these two engines is better suited to the aircraft already in the series, I could only say the same as the others - the M-82.
                I think Shvetsov answered the same way.
                1. Alexandra
                  Alexandra April 19 2021 13: 38
                  0
                  As you know, Yakovlev did not really manage to get the M-82 on his Yak-7. And Ilyushin should get the M-82 on his Il-2. But Yakovlev, yes, apparently could not tell Stalin anything else. The M-71 simply did not get up on any of the already developed Yakovlev aircraft. But the competitors of Yakovlev and his friend Ilyushin, Polikarpov and Sukhoi, by May 1941 were betting on the M-71. To say "M-82" and leave competitors without the 2000 strong engine they need so much is priceless!

                  But these are only guesses, there is no documentary evidence.
              3. Barb
                Barb April 28 2021 12: 28
                0
                Quote: AlexanderA
                I suspect here, too, Yakovlev tried. Firstly, the M-71 (unlike the M-82) on its Yaki, well, definitely did not get up - it was too heavy and powerful. Secondly, the launch of the M-82 instead of the M-71 in the series automatically deprived the Polikarpov and Sukhoi aircraft of the engine for which they were developed in May 1941.

                Yakovlev was not responsible for the motors, he was deputy. People's Commissar for Experimental Aircraft Building. Deputy EMNIP Balandin was the People's Commissar for Aircraft Engines.
                1. Alexandra
                  Alexandra April 28 2021 13: 07
                  0
                  Do you want to write that Yakovlev did not understand which motors are suitable for which experimental aircraft, and which ones, no?

                  In 1940, the M-64 engine "..." turned out. "It passed state tests in 1940 and could be relatively easily put into production, since its introduction was not accompanied by a radical technological restructuring of the serial plant ..." but was needed serial fighters Polikarpov and interfered with "young designers".

                  In 1940, the M-81 engine passed state tests, but also did not go into production. Despite the fact that the Government Decree "On the production of M-62 and M-81 engines" dated October 23, 1940 stated that the most important at the moment, and certainly the priority, is the M-81 engine ... in this connection, the director and the chief designer of plant # 19 needs to take all measures to develop it and launch it into serial production, having released at least 10 engines in November and at least 30 engines in December. "

                  But a month passed, and ... NKAP order No. 659 of November 23, 1940 decided to organize at plant No. 19, in parallel with the production of air-cooled motors M-62 and M-62IR, the production of liquid-cooled motors M-105. As for their own developments, it was proposed: "In 1941, the M-81 engine should not be produced at the plant No. 19. The production of the M-71 engine should be limited to bringing it to state tests and the release of a small series in the experimental shop in the amount of 20 pieces."

                  And so, M-81 is suddenly "not needed". The M-71 motor, which was planned to be developed since 1939 (by the end of 1940, it was planned to equip it with the Sukhoi attack aircraft, Polikarpov's fighter) is needed only in the amount of 20 pieces. By order of NKAP # 659, plant # 19 is switched to mass production of M-105 water-cooled motors.

                  Who benefits, tell me?

                  Further, I will simply give the text of a group letter addressed to G.M. Malenkov and K.E. Voroshilov dated April 17, 1941 signed by Yakovlevsky (8 GU NKAP), Biryukov (plant No. 19), Senichkin (NII VVS), Kozlov (plant No. 19), Ferapontov (plant No. 19), Frakter (plant No. 19), Ermakov (plant No. 19):

                  "" Experimental department of plant No. 19 prepared for serial production two powerful radial air-cooled motors M-71 and M-82A.

                  These motors successfully passed joint 50-hour tests, M-71 in February 1941 and M-82 in April 1941.

                  The main data of the motors are as follows:

                  Motors M-71 and M-82A are currently undergoing development tests to a 100-hour resource and will be completed by June of 1941.

                  However, the motors can be put into mass production by the time of refinement.

                  These motors, according to their technical data, are of great interest for military aviation. The M-71 motor has no equal, both here in the USSR and abroad.

                  The M-71 motor is installed on experimental aircraft: the I-185 fighter - a flight speed of 665 km / h (designer Polikarpov) and the Su-6 attack aircraft - a flight speed of 600 km / h (designer Sukhoi). These aircraft with M-71 engines successfully pass flight tests and are the best in terms of their combat qualities and also the reviews of the pilots. The M-82A motor is not yet installed on the plane.

                  It would seem that decisive measures must immediately be taken to prepare mass production for the production of these engines. But plant No. 19 was entrusted with manufacturing only 20 M-71 engines by May 1.

                  Considering that the cycle of preparation and launch of serial production of aircraft is 2-3 times less than the cycle of preparation of serial production of engines, and that the M-71 and M-82 engines will certainly be used in military aviation, it is necessary now to conduct energetic preparation at plant No. 19 mass production so as not to create a gap from the needs of aircraft plants.

                  This gap in the production of aircraft and engines will become inevitable if the aircraft and engine are put into serial production at the same time.

                  The NKAP did not give plant No. 19 instructions on preparing for serial production of M-71 engines, and even vice versa, the equipment available at plant No. 19 for the production of air-cooled engines is removed and transferred to other plants.

                  The removed equipment is considered superfluous, based on a given program for 1941 according to M-62. And it is completely not taken into account that plant No. 19 will have to make M-71 and M-82 motors.

                  Thus, instead of preparing the production of new powerful motors at the plant No. 19, conditions are created that impede their implementation.

                  From our point of view, the false purposefulness of the plant No. 19 only for liquid motors does not accidentally lead to conditions that prevent the introduction of new, most valuable motors.

                  Air cooled motors are widely used in foreign military aviation. In the United States, the Pratt-Whitney and Wright factories received an order for 1941 air-cooled motors for 40.000. in year. Pratt-Whitney air-cooled engines are being produced at Ford factories.

                  The 14-cylinder air-cooled engine BMW-801A was put into serial production in Germany.

                  In connection with the change in the tactics of air combat, namely the use of a frontal attack, it puts the air-cooled motors in the most advantageous position. If airplanes with liquid-propellant engines have to be booked from the front and thereby make the flight weight heavier and lose combat qualities (maneuverability, cargo and rate of climb), then when using air-cooled engines, the need for booking disappears and the combat qualities of the aircraft remain. In addition, the conduct of combat operations in the southern regions with liquid-cooled motors is difficult due to the lack of water. In this case, the advantage of air-cooled motors is undeniable.

                  The air-cooled motors M-62 and M-88, which are produced in the USSR in serial production, are outdated in terms of their technical data. Such a lag urgently requires the introduction of new powerful engines, such as the M-71 and M-82, so as not to create disproportions between liquid and air motors.

                  Our appeal to you is not intended to infringe on the serial production of AM-35A engines at plant No. 19. We think that the actual infringement of the introduction of new powerful air-cooled motors into serial production at plant No. 19 is not an accidental misunderstanding of the role of powerful air-cooled motors in combat aviation , but there is an intentional fact.

                  To get acquainted with the actual state of affairs at plant 19, it would be desirable to call a number of workers of the plant for information, since we think that the information given to you does not sufficiently illuminate the actual state of affairs at the plant. "


                  After reading this letter, would you order to urgently launch into serial production at plant No. 19 which engine, M-71 or M-82? Why?
          2. Alf
            Alf April 18 2021 21: 38
            0
            Quote: doktorkurgan
            the M-82 had a less intense temperature regime.

            Yes, yes ... Only until the middle of the 44th the pilots complained about the heat in the cockpit at 40-45 degrees. If it was so hot in the cockpit from the engine, then what was going on inside the engine?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 18 2021 22: 01
              0
              Quote: Alf
              If the cockpit was so hot from the engine, then what was going on inside the engine?

              Weird question. Air cooled engines operate at fairly high operating temperatures. In fact, as much as the lubrication system allows.

              By the way, about the lubricant. The problems faced by the Soviet designers of the Far Eastern Military District are underestimated.
      3. Dmitry V.
        Dmitry V. April 20 2021 12: 29
        0
        Quote: Alf
        And if the unfinished M-71 would have been allowed into a large batch, then what would it have resulted in during the war, when the factories would have been overwhelmed by a wave of complaints


        Yes, it would be exactly the same as with the M-82 - which was also overwhelmed by a wave of complaints.
        By 30 hours of flying, smoking began - the engine ate oil and lost power in the stepwise development of the cylinders.
        63 GIAP, following a positive assessment of the aircraft itself (La-7), a largely unexpected negative assessment of the operation of the ASh-82FN engines followed:

        “ASh-82FN motors on La-7 airplanes proved to be unreliable in operation. Their main defects, revealed during military tests, are:
        a) stepped development of cylinder liners and development of piston rings;
        b) oil gets into the suction system of the motor due to the development of oil sealing rings of the impeller roller;
        c) the development of the guide rods of the valves, leading to an increased consumption of oil through them. "
        Actually, back on September 18, 1944, the divisional commander, Colonel Stalin, approved an act that stated:
        “In the course of combat operation, numerous failures in the operation of the engine and its assemblies were revealed, as a result of which: a large percentage of faulty aircraft, slowing down the normal combat operation of the regiment, and non-combat losses.

        So, during intense hostilities for the period from September 14 to 17 this year inclusive, the average percentage of faulty aircraft due to engine defects ranged from 22 to 26%. During the same days, the regiment lost 3 aircraft due to engine failures in the air when flying in the area of ​​its airfield (motors No. 829401, 8213269, 829406).

        another example:
        In the process of military tests, the state of the ASh-82FN engines on La-7 aircraft in the 3rd GIAD was examined by a special commission of representatives of the Air Force and NKAP. The commission found that the motors behaved well for the first 10 hours. Their subsequent work began to be accompanied by cylinder failures, due to the presence of ledges on the mirror surface, worn piston rings, worn valve guides, violation of the labyrinth seal of the impeller roller, which, in general, caused a large oil consumption from 25 to 45 liters per hour of flight.

        In the division (32 and 63 GIAP), due to the high oil consumption (on average 25-35 kg per flight), 16 ASh-82FN engines had to be replaced at the end of the tests. In addition, on four La-7 aircraft, it was required to replace the motors for various other defects. Thus, of the 70 La-7 aircraft available in both regiments, 20 required a change of engines, which amounted to 26% of the faulty material part. Out of the 58 serviceable aircraft available, engines have already been replaced on three for various defects, namely: due to the loss of the double timing gear locking - one motor, due to the high oil consumption - one motor and due to the appearance of chips on the Kuno filter - one motor. In addition, 23 cylinders were replaced on 76 engines due to high oil consumption and smoke.

        The incapacity of 22-26% due to engine defects is an extremely high indicator, the accident rate of 3 aircraft in 3 days - it was just somehow embarrassing to mention this after the war ...

        And in 1945, statistics were accumulated on the M-82 FN engine for 1944:
        Chief of the UTE of the Air Force of the spacecraft, Lieutenant General of the IAS F.N. Shulgovsky, at the beginning of March 1945, reported statistics on defects in aircraft and motors of the Space Force Air Force for 1944:
        “For the ASh-82F and FN motor: 1. Development and breakdown of piston rings and stepwise development of cylinders.
        In total, there were 882 cases, which resulted in: aircraft accidents - 5, engine accidents - 188, breakdowns and forced landings - 17, downtime and loss of combat readiness - 672.


        From the report on February 10, 1945 by the Chief Engineer of the Air Force A.K. Repina A.A. Novikov:

        “I am reporting on the state of the fleet of La-5 and La-7 aircraft with ASh-82FN engines, as of 1.2.45. of the faulty 320 La-5 ASh-82FN aircraft and 146 La-7 ASh-82FN aircraft, i.e. 466 aircraft with the ASh-82FN engine, 203 aircraft are out of order due to engines, which is 8,5% of the entire fleet of La-5 and La-7 aircraft.

        So if anything - in total two fighter air divisions for malfunctioning M-82 engines incapacitated in February 1945
        They could find a solution to the reliability problem of the M-82 only after the war.
  • Sasha1979
    Sasha1979 April 18 2021 05: 32
    -1
    We don't store what we have. Lost - we cry.
  • Asad
    Asad April 18 2021 05: 34
    +3
    It is sad that being a brilliant designer is not enough, you still have to be a "pusher" and an intriguer! The author is a plus! Although I rolled in a warning recently.
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. April 18 2021 05: 38
    .
    However, the French from Normandy-Niemen fought on the Yak-3, it is unlikely that they would have been offered a mediocre car.
    Of course, engine building in the USSR and then in Russia is an eternal disease with rare exceptions.
    The quality is lame ... the engine range is weak, the performance is mediocre. Therefore, one can understand what difficulties Polikarpov had.
    It is a pity of course that Polikarpov could not bring to mind his brainchild I-185. But in our country, talents often rest against the peculiarities of our state that you cannot break through with your forehead ... such is life.
    1. KERMET
      KERMET April 18 2021 08: 25
      +2
      What makes you think that Polikarpov could not bring to mind his brainchild?
    2. unknown
      unknown April 18 2021 10: 04
      -3
      Yakovlev's planes are actually sports planes, somehow adapted for military operations.
      For example, the French had such a category - light fighters. Representative - Codron S. 714.
      A similar aircraft was created by the Italians: Ambrosini SAI207.
      Engine building in the USSR did suffer. Like everything else.
      Indeed, in the course of the Commintern revolution and the further seizure of the country, which we like to call the Civil War, the country lost its elite. Not political, but military and technical. It takes time to restore it. And not one generation, but three generations.
      Even at the time of the collapse of the USSR, we did not have a full-fledged elite. There was not enough time.
      As for the "Hispano-Suiza", the French only by the middle of WWII were able to create a variant Z with a capacity of 1600 hp.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion April 18 2021 14: 29
        +1
        I'm afraid to disappoint, but it was the technical elite who worked perfectly as designers and directors at Soviet factories. But you continue to believe that the tsarist Rashka, with 85-90% of the peasant population, which everyone who could, except perhaps the Turks, was flogged in the First World War, despite the fact that the eastern front was not even the main one then, had some cadres ... At most, she had the conditional Sikorskys, who could build something in the garage with their own money, but did not have any opportunities for mass production, in particular, for the production of aircraft in PMV, we were an order of magnitude behind Germany and Great Britain.
  • avia12005
    avia12005 April 18 2021 05: 45
    +8
    Somewhere I read that there were front-line tests of the I-185, and he showed himself perfectly ...
    1. Sergey M. Karasev
      Sergey M. Karasev April 18 2021 06: 38
      +2
      EMNIP, near Stalingrad in the fall of 1942. I also read this. M. Solonin in "On Peacefully Sleeping Airfields" mentions the time of front-line tests, its place is not indicated.
      1. Serg koma
        Serg koma April 18 2021 09: 58
        +5
        Quote: Sergey Mikhailovich Karasev
        Its place is not indicated.

        728th Guards Fighter Regiment, Kalinin Front. Location: Staraya Toropa; The old lady. The first combat sortie of the I-185 took place on December 1942, 1943, and the last sortie on January 1913, 10.07.1943. They flew in two pairs, the leader was an officer (Captain D.I.Kupin (7 - 1917/1994/30.10.1921 (did not return from a ship, Yak-7.11B, Prokhorovka), Senior Lieutenant N.P. Ignatiev (Hero of the Soviet Union, 1989- 1920), and the sergeant (A.E. Borovykh (Twice Hero of the Soviet Union 26.01.1943/XNUMX/XNUMX, - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX), A.N. Tomilchenko (junior school XNUMX - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX) was the wingman. performed ten to eleven sorties.
        According to the memoirs of N.P. Ignatiev, they were told:
        "The fall of the I-185 on the territory occupied by the enemy will be regarded as treason to the Motherland."
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma April 18 2021 10: 29
          +2
          Quote: Serg Koma
          slave - sergeant (A.E. Borovykh

          1st row from left to right: D.B. Glinka, I.N. Kozhedub, P. Ya. Golovachev. 2nd row: V.I. Popkov, A.E. Borovykh. 3rd row: A. N. Efimov, A. K. Nedbailo, V. I. Mykhlik. 1945 g.
          1. Serg koma
            Serg koma April 18 2021 14: 35
            0
            Quote: Serg Koma
            senior lieutenant N.P. Ignatiev

            Nikolai Petrovich Ignatiev (1917-1994) - Colonel of the Soviet Army, Hero of the Soviet Union (1944).
    2. 2112vda
      2112vda April 18 2021 08: 02
      +3
      The tests were in the winter of 42 on the Kalinin Front.
  • mark1
    mark1 April 18 2021 06: 05
    +4
    Roman, Roman - you are incorrigible! Why are you repeating the old tales about the white bull that have already been refuted 100500 times? Or are you deliberately provoking the people to revive the situation.? ..
    And the topic raised is an interesting (almost eternal) one could write a really good article
    1. Turist1996
      Turist1996 April 18 2021 07: 03
      +14
      And what kind of fairy tales ?! That Yakovlev made full use of the administrative resource to promote his aircraft is a well-known fact.
      I personally do not understand at all how it was possible to put an acting designer on a second position in the NKAP ?! After all, his interest is obvious.
      1. mark1
        mark1 April 18 2021 07: 28
        +4
        Well, tell us, to the detriment of which apparatus is heavier than air, Yakovlev used his administrative resource and promoted his fighters?
        MiG-3? - engine
        I-185? - again the engine (and even preparation for the series went at 43)
        LaGG-3? - produced until the 44th, although it flew like a log until the end of the 43rd
        La-5 -? - if the "harmful" Yakovlev would have used his administrative resource, the Yak-7M82 would have gone into production, which with a substandard engine and a "short" propeller turned out better, at that time (41/42), the rest of the applicants (I -185M-82, Gu-82, MiG-9)
        Yes, and the Yakovlevsky factories (plant of agricultural machines, for example) could not produce the I-185 without a fundamental change in technology (and not the fact that they would have mastered it in wartime)
        And for the "airmen" (with their generally limited production and mainly at one plant, the 29th later joined) competition was more likely between Lavochkin and Polikarpov
        1. KERMET
          KERMET April 18 2021 08: 27
          +3
          Where was the Yak-7 M82 better?
          1. mark1
            mark1 April 18 2021 08: 44
            +3
            KERMET - it was better, better ... Take the considered period of time. The M-82A engine gave out at a nominal of 1280 l / s against 1330 for the opponents, the cooling and hood of the engine (in other things, as well as for the applicants), the "short" screw was not worked out. But at the same time, on tests, he took readings of speed at the ground 515 km / h, at an altitude of 573 (in contrast to the "applicants" who had a much larger blockage in terms of characteristics), easier piloting. It is safe to say that if Yakovlev did not abandon this direction (for objective reasons), the Yak-7M-82 would practically alone give design characteristics - 515/615 km / h with incomparable technological and operational simplicity and at least would not be inferior to the later La- five.
            1. KERMET
              KERMET April 18 2021 09: 02
              +3
              Yes, he could not have been better, because as you rightly noted, because of his short propeller, he could not take full power from the motor, and the propeller could not be lengthened (legs are short), regarding the ease of piloting - it not only consists of straight flights and bends, look at the anti-kapotazhny angle (again the legs are short) takeoff, taxiing, and especially landing on it are not very pleasant
              1. mark1
                mark1 April 18 2021 09: 08
                0
                Alexander, I’m talking about the same for you - without removing full power and having a substandard Yak-7M82 engine, it turned out to be better than the MiG, Gu and I-185 (for the period under review, there was no La-5 yet, and it did not fly right away became as it should. Thanks Shvetsovu helped with the design of the hood). The problem of the propeller is solved not only by the diameter but also by the number or / and width of the blades.
                1. KERMET
                  KERMET April 18 2021 09: 12
                  +2
                  What makes you think that only Yakovlev had substandard conditions, while others did not? How could a purely experimental aircraft be better about the prospects of converting which into a real combat aircraft the design bureau itself did not believe? Here's about his merry virtues:
                  "With the installed propeller with a diameter of 2,8 m, the distance from the ground to the end of the blade in the flight line was only 0,17 m, and with a diameter of 3,0 m, there was practically no gap and takeoff could only be taken off from three points."
                  1. mark1
                    mark1 April 18 2021 09: 19
                    0
                    Quote: KERMET
                    only Yakovlev was substandard, while others did not?

                    Because I read the characteristics of the installed engines on these machines. You can refute.
                    Quote: KERMET
                    How could a purely experimental aircraft be better?

                    Which of these planes was serial? Equals are compared among equals - a serial glider and a serial (but not native) motor.
                    And about the screw, I'm probably in vain, I say something. You just don't perceive.
                    1. KERMET
                      KERMET April 18 2021 09: 24
                      +2
                      You just do not perceive that the plane simply added 400 kg with the same structural strength, which was already at its limit ...
                      Can you figure out what to do next?
                      1. mark1
                        mark1 April 18 2021 11: 52
                        +1
                        You do not perceive that the design of the Yak-7 was stronger and the additional kilograms were not so critical, and there were fewer problems with centering, which is why they put it on it and not on the Yak-1, well, the modifications were naturally carried out differently. According to the original plan, in general, they were going to put on the Yak-3 (I-30). What is there to think out, no more stupid than you people have thought out and carried out the calculations.
                        No need to read any mossy heresy about the flimsy structure (weakened but not critical)
                      2. KERMET
                        KERMET April 18 2021 12: 32
                        +1
                        As you yourself said, people did not leave this experiment more stupid than you, and you are now doing the thinking.
                      3. mark1
                        mark1 April 18 2021 12: 38
                        +1
                        But what kind of thinking, if the facts take place and are documented, and speculation in hindsight just comes from you.
                      4. KERMET
                        KERMET April 18 2021 12: 57
                        +1
                        Well, I am silent - and you go re-read Stepants for example and do not stop until enlightenment
                      5. mark1
                        mark1 April 18 2021 13: 44
                        +1
                        Yes, I read, and before enlightenment too. I read Brillinga again ... The facts are the same everywhere -
                        on the Yak-7 glider was installed M-82A with number. with a capacity of 1280 hp;
                        as a result of unstable engine operation, constant failures and overheating, it was possible to remove the speed characteristics from only two sites
                        - on the ground -501 km / h (I confess I was wrong a little), at the first border of the altitude -571 km / h, when studying the reasons for the lack of speed, they came to the following conclusions:
                        -insufficient screw diameter and impossibility to increase it without modifications;
                        -insufficiently modified engine hood design;
                        The aircraft was modified in 43 but was not tested.
                        We do not contradict each other. You are in vain upset. You then hooked on me when I spoke about something completely different
                        Quote: mark1
                        La-5 -? - if the "harmful" Yakovlev would have used his administrative resource, the Yak-7M82 would have gone into production, which with a substandard engine and a "short" propeller turned out better, at that time (41/42), the rest of the applicants

                        And at that time, Yakovlev had really the smallest blockage in terms of characteristics and he had reason to rake this topic under himself, which he did not do, no matter what villainous qualities were attributed to him. Moreover, he tried to "register" Gudkov at the 21st plant.
                        So our butting with you, although fascinating, is not the topic.
            2. KERMET
              KERMET April 18 2021 09: 31
              +2
              Regarding substandardness, the very first MiG search gives out:
              "In addition, instead of the calculated AV-5L-156 propeller, we used AV-5-127A, which created less thrust, and the engine, due to the" raw "carburetors, did not always develop the calculated power."
              All design bureaus received raw motors at that time - there were simply no normal and exhausted ones by the summer of 41
              1. mark1
                mark1 April 18 2021 12: 31
                0
                Quote: KERMET
                and the engine, due to the "raw" carburetors, did not always develop the design power "

                "Estimated power" the concept was then largely virtual and was determined by eye (by turns), but I'm talking about the passport power, the lack of which was superimposed on this instability + overheating. Unlike the MiG, it was possible to take indicators only at two sites (and they were much better)
              2. KERMET
                KERMET April 18 2021 12: 59
                0
                Out of 4 motors! On which of them did you have your passport tempered?
        2. VO3A
          VO3A April 18 2021 18: 32
          -1
          Yak-1 did not meet the requirements of the Terms of Reference! What does the condition have to do with it? It could not be taken even in perfect condition! And they did not accept it until the specialists were dispersed and the manual ones were installed ... And the Yak-1 was produced at the factories, in the absence of acceptance !!! You understand the difference ...
          1. mmaxx
            mmaxx April 23 2021 17: 19
            0
            And the front would have remained without aircraft ... Neither good nor bad. Probably the Americans would have thrown it? Not?
      2. KERMET
        KERMET April 18 2021 11: 23
        +2
        By the way, the problem of choosing a propeller is not so simple as you think - with an increase in the number of blades, the overall efficiency of the propeller falls, this is usually a necessary measure.
  • lucul
    lucul April 18 2021 10: 55
    +1
    Yak-7M-82 practically alone would give design characteristics - 515/615 km / h with incomparable technological and operational simplicity and at least would not be inferior to the later La-5.

    You do not understand what you are writing about - the designer calculates the strength of the aircraft for a certain speed, and in order to produce this speed, a certain engine power is required.
    Structurally, the Yak was designed for speeds up to 650 km / h and an engine up to 1200 hp. Therefore, in no way the M-82FN from its 1850hp did not fit the flimsy Yak.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. April 21 2021 09: 39
    0
    Quote: mark1
    Yak-7M-82 practically alone would give design characteristics - 515/615 km / h with incomparable technological and operational simplicity and at least would not be inferior to the later La-5.


    We must not forget why on the Yak-7 M-82 there was a propeller with a diameter of 2,8 m with a required diameter of 3,2 m in terms of engine power - short landing gear struts at the aircraft.
    To increase the length of the landing gear on the Yak-7 is to spread the chassis along the track width, and this is:
    - completely rebuild the center section with its strengthening and weighting, increase in roll inertia - that is, the loss of maneuverable advantages
    The center section is the power base of any aircraft, the center of concentration of loads, its alteration, "pulls" a significant alteration of the entire airframe.
    In fact, a new plane was looming, with the corresponding amount of work - I think for this reason, the Yakovlev Design Bureau did not begin to deal with it. It was easier to pull improvements from the existing airframe than the design bureau did in the form of the Yak-7.
  • lucul
    lucul April 18 2021 10: 51
    +1
    if the "harmful" Yakovlev would have used his administrative resource, the Yak-7M82 would have gone into production, which with a substandard engine and a "short" propeller turned out better, at that time (41/42), the rest of the applicants (I-185M-82, Gu -82, MiG-9)

    Well, how can you write this?
    The design of the Yak was completely inadequate for the power of the M-82, absolutely.
    1. mark1
      mark1 April 18 2021 11: 42
      +2
      Vital, why are you confusing the I-26-1 / 2 and the Yak-7 (with a general similarity, the structure was reinforced) Why are you braiding the ASH-82FN - this is a different time period (Yak-9 time) And you know that the Yak design before war withstood a high-speed pressure of 665 km / h at an altitude and 515 at the ground. No need to feed yourself with stories about the first tests of the Yak-1.
      1. lucul
        lucul April 18 2021 11: 50
        -4
        Did you know that the Yak's design before the war withstood a high-speed pressure of 665 km / h at an altitude and 515 at the ground

        And how much did she withstand when diving?
        Thunderbolt dived at speeds over 900 km / h, and with a boom-zoom, the Yak would have been unable to do anything at all.
        That is why the Me.109 used boom-zoom, having a dive superiority of 100 km / h, that it could do it over and over again until it was hit. All the Yak could do was defend helplessly, without a chance to attack.
        Against the I-185, the M-71 Me.109 would have had no chance of success, even the Elector.
        1. mark1
          mark1 April 18 2021 12: 03
          +3
          And what does Thunderbolt and the 41-year-old M-82 adaptation program have to do with it? What does this have to do with the 185-year I-41 with a weak 82nd engine, which stupidly lacked power for any decent climb rate (in order to dive, you first need to climb quickly). There, on MiGs, no one dived especially strongly. Read less fairy tales - Red Falcons fought mainly on bends
          1. lucul
            lucul April 18 2021 12: 07
            0
            Read less fairy tales - Red Falcons fought mainly on bends

            This is the tactics of the First World War, and in the Second World War the tactics of high speeds of 600+ km / h worked, that is, work on the aisles and boom-zoom.
            This is very clearly seen in the Japanese A6M Zero, created for fighting on bends, he could not oppose anything to faster rivals.
            Speed ​​became the measure of success in battle, not maneuverability, and the reagents only confirmed this.
            1. mark1
              mark1 April 18 2021 12: 12
              +1
              This is a routine tactic of air combat for Soviet aviation. On the vertical began to leave by the end of the war. Therefore, up to 43 years old, the I-16 and even the I-153 fit quite well. The main task was to protect bombers and attack aircraft, and further from this stove and danced.
              1. KERMET
                KERMET April 18 2021 12: 40
                +1
                The tactics of the application came from the characteristics of the aircraft. Imagine the Luftwaffe on Soviet aircraft - they would come to similar tactics of the Red Army Air Force
                1. mark1
                  mark1 April 18 2021 12: 53
                  +1
                  Yes, but the Germans used free hunting with all the consequences, their maneuver was not limited by anyone or anything. It was not for nothing that they considered the MiG-3 the best Soviet fighter up to 43 years of age, and in training battles they were not badly "verticalized" according to their tactics.
                2. KERMET
                  KERMET April 18 2021 14: 20
                  0
                  Free Hunting did not cancel clearing the air in front of their bombers (the best tactic for their performance characteristics of fighters)
                  And if our pilots were allowed to hunt freely on fighters of 41-42 years, they would only twist their fingers at their temples - they are not sharpened for this
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 06
          +1
          Quote: mark1
          Read less fairy tales - Red Falcons fought mainly on bends

          Because they had nothing to catch on the verticals. There is nothing on the horizontals either, but at least some chances.
  • Old electrician
    Old electrician April 18 2021 06: 34
    +17
    Another jalarm in the style of "Stalin, Beria, GULAG". The author's level of competence is best illustrated by the phrase:
    And the MiG-3 is still out of production. And LaGG-3 was removed.

    The MiG-3 was a high-altitude fighter. Its performance characteristics were superior to those of the Spitfires of the first series, which, without exaggeration, can be considered the best high-altitude fighter of that time. 1941 showed that there were practically no high-altitude battles at the front, and at low altitudes it was inferior to the Bf 109F. In 1941, Pokryshkin flew the MiG-3. Read his reviews.
    The MiG-3 had a significant drawback. It was built on the basis of "delta wood" - plywood impregnated with imported phenolic resins. Such plywood had a lower specific gravity with the same strength, but the supply of resins stopped after the outbreak of the war. I suspect that these resins were purchased from Germany. In addition, its AM-35A engine in the AM-38 modification was installed on the IL-2. Therefore, we can say that the Il-2 "killed" the MiG-3. The production of the aircraft without engines and resins really stopped in December 1941, in 1942 only what was left in the factory reserves were produced.
    Until 1943, the LaGG-3 was the most massive fighter on the fronts of the Great Patriotic War. In 1942, 2771 LaGG-3 fighters were built. The last modification was the LaGG-3 of the 66th series, which was built in Tbilisi from the spring of 1943 to the middle of 1944. In total, 6528 LaGG-3 fighters of the 66th series were built.
    Since 3, one of the most effective fighter pilots of the Great Patriotic War, A.V. Alelyukhin (1941 victories won personally and 40 in the group).
    The nicknames "Lacquered Guaranteed Coffin" and "Flying Log" for the LAGG-3 were invented by representatives of the liberal dignity of the Perestroika era, who had nothing to do with aviation. For them, the main thing was to smack a ball of dirt in the Red Army Air Force. The problem with the LaGG-3 really was, and it was that in the summer of 1941, the LaGG-3, like the Yak-1, were raw machines with a mass of childhood diseases, while the debut of their opponent, Messer, took place back in the war in Spain. In addition, until 1942, the Germans had a numerical superiority, a more thought-out organization and the absence of Trotskyist fighters for the World Revolution, like the innocently repressed hero of the Soviet Union P.V. Rychagova.
    The I-185 did not go into production because it was all-metal. Aluminum during the war was a terrible strategic deficit. It was simply not enough for fighters. So, for example, they switched to the all-metal La-11 only after the war. I-16, MiG-3, LaGG-3, La-5, La-7 and all Yaks were made of wood (plywood). A stake on the I-185 would have left the country without fighters. The rest is blah blah blah in the style of "I'm good, and the rest are cocoa."
    1. Old electrician
      Old electrician April 18 2021 06: 54
      -1
      I forgot to laugh at the author's naivety:
      Let me remind you that the P-47 Thunderbolt is the most efficient fighter in the US Air Force, weighed under 6 tons.

      The full name is P-47C-5-RE. RE from the word "restricted" - restrictedly suitable for air combat. This abbreviation was used for all modifications of the P-47.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer April 18 2021 10: 23
        +6
        Where did you get this?
        Everything is much easier
        Aircraft made at the Farmingdale plant were designated with the suffix "-RE
        1. Old electrician
          Old electrician April 18 2021 13: 39
          +1
          Please refute the point of view of Soviet test pilots. One of the best flight engineers at LII, Mark Lazarevich Gallay, recalled the flight on the P-47 in this way:
          - Already in the first minutes of the flight, I realized that this is not a fighter! Stable, with a comfortable spacious cockpit, comfortable, but not a fighter. "Thunderbolt" had unsatisfactory maneuverability in the horizontal and especially in the vertical plane. The plane accelerated slowly - the inertia of the heavy machine affected. The Thunderbolt was perfect for a simple en-route flight without harsh maneuvers. This is not enough for a fighter.

          The classic weapon for the war with the Papuans, and the Americans knew this very well. But the engineering staff was delighted with the "Thunderbolt". However, their enthusiasm did not improve the combat characteristics of the P-47.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer April 18 2021 14: 25
            +1
            I don't need to refute anything
            Your original post was like this
            The full name is P-47C-5-RE. RE from the word "restricted"

            This is crap. RE is not "restricted" That's all
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine April 18 2021 15: 00
            +2
            Quote: Old electrician
            AI Mark Lazarevich Gallay recalled the flight on the P-47 this way:

            Galantai had no idea why an aircraft like the R-47 was needed. The USSR did not have strategic aviation and, accordingly, did not require a long-range high-altitude escort fighter.
            The Yak-3 pilot would hardly have been able to climb to the height where the P-47 could destroy him.
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse April 18 2021 19: 37
              +1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              The Yak-3 pilot would hardly have been able to climb to the height where the P-47 could destroy him.

              What are you arguing? "Normal takeoff weight: 9452 kg" and this is a fighter ?? For comparison, the Pe-2 - Takeoff weight: 7536 kg. I would watch Thunderbolt fight with Yak-3 laughing
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 18 2021 20: 38
                +2
                Quote: Saxahorse
                I would watch Thunderbolt fight with Yak-3

                Nothing interesting. As I already said,
                Quote: Saxahorse
                The Yak-3 pilot would hardly have been able to climb to the height where the P-47 could destroy him.

                And in the case of using the R-47 as an information security, its task is not to twist bends, but to lean back and dump. Will have time to climb 5 kilometers - and the Yak-3 will turn into a pumpkin.
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse April 18 2021 21: 13
                  +3
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  And in the case of using the R-47 as an information security, its task is not to twist bends, but to lean back and dump. Will have time to climb 5 kilometers - and the Yak-3 will turn into a pumpkin.

                  Well that is throw bombs from the maximum height (without a bomb sight) and dump them as quickly as possible. And you still call this pseudo-strategist a fighter? laughing
                  1. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine April 18 2021 22: 07
                    0
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    Well that is throw bombs from the maximum height (without a bombsight) and dump them as quickly as possible

                    Why limit altitude? From a dive that the Pe-2 non-dive bomber was not capable of, for example. And then to blame, yes. With its speeds and heights, it is almost impossible to catch up with it.
                    And the bombsight for a dive bomber is somewhat overrated. Ju-87 worked well without it. I'm not talking about the IL-2.
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    And you still call this pseudo-strategist a fighter?

                    Naturally. At its speeds and heights, it is the best fighter of the war. The P-51 overtook it only at the expense of the price, which was almost half less.
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse April 18 2021 22: 29
                      0
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Why limit altitude? From a dive,

                      Does he have brake flaps? Or what other devices to control the speed at the peak?
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 22: 45
                        +1
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Does he have brake flaps?

                        No, it's an ersatz. The US Air Force abandoned dive bombers (such as the A-25 Shrike) so that the infantry would not bother them with their problems and would not interfere with the fight with Hitler with bombers.
                      2. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse April 18 2021 23: 03
                        +1
                        Don't fantasize :)
                        Thunderbolts ended the war with 3752 downed enemy aircraft on over 746 sorties, with 000 P-3499 casualties for all causes.

                        As a P-47 fighter, they have been armed with missiles and used for ground attack since 1943. Of course, at low altitudes, it was inferior not only to the Yak-3, but in general to all fighters of that time. The Mustang P-51 supplanted it as an escort fighter, only at the end of the war there was a special heavy version with a range of 3700 km, which was used to escort the B-29 in the Pacific Ocean.
                      3. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 23: 28
                        -1
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Thunderbolts ended the war with 3752 downed enemy aircraft on over 746 sorties, with 000 P-3499 casualties for all causes.

                        That is, one lost vehicle for 200 sorties and more than one shoot-down request per each lost ersatz attack aircraft. I say, a phenomenal plane.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        since 1943 they have been armed with rockets and used for ground attack.

                        The Americans even hung bombs on the ultralight XP-77, and God himself ordered this dinosaur.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Of course, at low altitudes, it was inferior not only to the Yak-3, but in general to all fighters of that time.

                        Of course, at low altitudes, he should not fly at all, except in shock missions. There are other planes for low altitudes.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Mustang P-51 supplanted it as an escort fighter

                        Yes, in 44th. The Mustang is significantly cheaper.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        with a range of 3700 km, which was used to accompany the B-29 in the Pacific Ocean.

                        It was not particularly used there, and there was no point in it after the appearance of the airfield on Iwo Jima. But the horizontal speed of 700+ km / h was higher than the maximum speed (in a dive) of any Soviet aircraft.
          3. Alexandra
            Alexandra April 19 2021 01: 01
            +1
            And why look at the battle of Thunderbolt and Yak-3 if by the time the Yak-3 appeared, the P-47D was used mainly in the role of information security and attack aircraft?

  • Old electrician
    Old electrician April 18 2021 08: 10
    +2
    And more about LaGG-3. He ended the war with assault strikes against the Japanese Kwantung Army. According to the memoirs of the Luftwaffe ace Barghorn (supposedly 302 victories) in the summer of 1942, near Stalingrad, the Bf 109F group led by him, during 40 minutes of air combat, unsuccessfully tried to shoot down a single LaGG-3, the pilot of which skillfully maneuvering his car out of the attack. Over our territory, the Germans were forced to stop pursuing. This is perhaps one of the clearest indications of the machine's capabilities.
    1. Alf
      Alf April 18 2021 10: 12
      +6
      Quote: Old electrician
      The Bf 109F group led by him, during 40 minutes of air combat, unsuccessfully tried to shoot down a single LaGG-3, the pilot of which, skillfully maneuvering, took his car out from under the blow. Over our territory, the Germans were forced to stop pursuing.

      Remind, WHO was sitting in LAGG? A surname like Grinchik says nothing?
      1. Old electrician
        Old electrician April 18 2021 13: 28
        +1
        Alas! Barghorn was not able to find out the name of this pilot, and, unfortunately, I am also unable to do this. As for Alexei Nikolaevich Grinchik, since May 1942 he was on flight test work at the LII. He did not fight on the Stalingrad front.
        1. Alf
          Alf April 18 2021 15: 24
          0
          Quote: Old electrician
          Barghorn was not worthy to find out the name of this pilot,

          And what's this?
          Quote: Old electrician
          He did not fight on the Stalingrad front.

          1. Old electrician
            Old electrician April 18 2021 16: 04
            0
            As I understand it, you put Grinchik as Barghorn's opponent in that episode with LaGG-3. If not, then I apologize.
            1. Alf
              Alf April 18 2021 16: 17
              0
              Quote: Old electrician
              As I understand it, you put Grinchik as Barghorn's opponent in that episode with LaGG-3. If not, then I apologize.

              There is absolutely nothing to apologize for. And it was not I who put Grinchik against Buckhorn, the German himself ran into it.
  • KERMET
    KERMET April 18 2021 08: 30
    +4
    Everything is mixed up in a bunch ... And the resins in the MiG-3 and the all-metal I-185 ... You will sort out all this mess
    1. Old electrician
      Old electrician April 18 2021 11: 18
      +3
      It seems that you want to say something, but have nothing to say.
      The author claims that the aircraft of the war era were taken into service solely by pull and only thanks to vile intrigues against the unfortunate Polikarpov. As a result, instead of the magnificent I-185, they adopted incompetent MiGs, Yaki and LaGGi. In contrast to this, I will explain point by point.
      1. At the time of its creation, the MiG-3 was the best high-altitude fighter in the world (I don’t like it, refute it) but, unlike the I-185, it not only flew, but was also ready for mass production. It should be said that the MiG-3 had surprisingly few childhood illnesses. He, as they say, immediately "went". In the air defense, the MiG-3 was operated until it was completely worn out and only by the end of the war was it replaced by Spitfires. The production of the MiG-3 was discontinued for objective reasons, and not because of its combat unsuitability.
      2. Production of LaGG-3 was discontinued only in 1944. He went through the entire war from the first to the last day. With the tales of the "Flying Log" you need to go to hohlosites.
      3. Even before the start of serial production (thank God it never started!) I-185s were pursued by all sorts of failures. This indicates an ill-conceived design and, first of all, an overly optimistic approach to the choice of the engine. By the way, the author built his article on the materials of the Internet aviation encyclopedia "Corner of the Sky" and repeats her point of view. However, even there they reluctantly admit:
      With the development of the M-71 and M-90, things were quite difficult, but not hopeless.
      - well, yes, not hopeless. I would call it catching a crane in the sky.
      The plane, in fact, never took place, although it was designed from 1939 to 1943. The highlight of the I-185 was an all-metal duralumin wing with powerful mechanization. This is certainly cool, but in 1943 there was not enough aluminum for the duralumin spars for the La-5. To be accepted into the I-185 series, not only duralumin was needed, but also machines for its processing. Can you tell me where you could get them then? Stop the production of bombers, as Germany did in 1944? Therefore, before the war, this aircraft was not yet available, and in 1943 it was impossible to realize it. All this is objective, but, as I understand it, you want to expose the vile Stalinist regime once again? You will plunge into modern times and 1937 will seem to you an example of fair jurisprudence.
      1. KERMET
        KERMET April 18 2021 11: 38
        +1
        You yourself come up with something, and then refute with ardor ...
        If anything, then at the time of adoption in the series of LaGG, MiG and Yak I-185 did not see the sky at all.
        As for the "Corner of Heaven" - dig deeper and find out on the basis of what sources the articles were written there.
        Find out from what the spars of the same La-5 and, for example, the Yak-9 were.
        1. Old electrician
          Old electrician April 18 2021 13: 55
          +2
          Serial production of La-5FN with metal spars was launched in 1944. I'm talking about 1943.
          In total, 22 basic modifications of the Yak-9 were developed, of which 15 were serially built. The first versions of the Yak-9 hit the front in 1942 and had wooden spars. Metal spars appeared later, but, as usual, in our literature on the blue eye it is stated about metal spars starting with the first versions of the Yak-9.
  • unknown
    unknown April 18 2021 09: 51
    +2
    In fact, LAGG aircraft were built using delta wood.
    Of all Soviet fighters, the Germans considered the MIG to be the best.
    The air war on the Eastern Front took place mainly at low altitudes, because our main aircraft was the Il-2. Stormtrooper.
    There were practically no such aircraft (pure attack aircraft) on the Western Front.
    Instead, fighter-bombers were used.
    Therefore, the air war in the West took place at medium and high altitudes.
    A good fighter with an air-cooled engine could have come from the I-180.
    The designs of the different options were slightly different.
    Among them was a variant of the design already mastered by serial factories that produced the I-16. The mastered design coupled with the M-82 could well replace the future La.
    1. apro
      apro April 18 2021 10: 23
      +1
      Quote: ignoto
      Of all Soviet fighters, the Germans considered the MIG to be the best.

      Which for some reason was sometimes called i17. For its obvious similarity with and 16
    2. Old electrician
      Old electrician April 18 2021 10: 31
      +2
      The last modification of the I-16 type 29 (1940) was equipped with an M-63 engine weighing 515 kg. The takeoff weight of this aircraft was 1900 kg. Now you propose to easily install a new M-63 engine weighing 82 kg instead of the M-868. Aren't you confused by the engine weight gain of 350 kg? For this engine, the I-16 would have to be altered from scratch and, in fact, a new aircraft had to be built. For any technique there is such a concept as the limit of the possibility of modernization. The I-16 reached it, the transition to the M-82, at best, would turn him into a surrogate freak. Though it's not bad to dream.
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 25
      0
      Quote: ignoto
      mainly at low altitudes, because our main aircraft was the Il-2. Stormtrooper.

      It took place at low altitudes, since Soviet pilots could not afford to climb higher. Actually, exactly the same situation with the Japanese pilots.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Old electrician
        Old electrician April 18 2021 15: 33
        +2
        It took place at low altitudes, since Soviet pilots could not afford to climb higher.
        - sorry! And why did the Soviet pilots climb to heights of more than 5 km if there was no enemy there?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 18 2021 15: 46
          +2
          Quote: Old electrician
          Why did Soviet pilots have to climb to heights of more than 5 km, if there is no enemy there?

          Just the enemy appeared there. He appeared on 10+ when he saw fit.
          1. Old electrician
            Old electrician April 18 2021 16: 20
            0
            At such heights, German high-altitude reconnaissance officers rarely passed. Even the Spitfires could not intercept them - the climb time was too long. It was unpleasant, but not fatal. It is difficult to say what practical effect these flights gave to the Germans. Therefore, it can be argued that the damage from them is zero.
  • lucul
    lucul April 18 2021 11: 53
    +1
    The MiG-3 was a high-altitude fighter. Its performance characteristics were superior to those of the first series of Spitfires, which, without exaggeration, can be considered the best high-altitude fighter of that time.

    MiG-3 and the DB-605 engine, then it would open up)))
    1. Alexandra
      Alexandra April 19 2021 01: 15
      +1
      The MiG-3 would also open with the AM-37P engine. But Mikulin had no time to deal with the AM-37P engine. After all, a friend of Deputy People's Commissar Yakovlev Ilyushin urgently needed an initiative low-altitude engine AM-38 for his initiative Il-2 attack aircraft. With the AM-35A engine, even in the single-seater version, Ilyushin's "flying tank" flew frankly badly.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 23
    +2
    Quote: Old electrician
    until 1942 the Germans had a numerical superiority,

    Where from?
    Quote: Old electrician
    smarter organization

    She did not go anywhere after the 42nd year.
    Quote: Old electrician
    Aluminum during the war was a terrible strategic deficit. It was simply not enough for fighters ..

    It was precisely for the fighters that he was not enough. It was enough for 1100 Li-2, for 11 thousand Pe-2 was enough, even for 300 G-5 torpedo boats, for tens of thousands of V-2, of course, and the fighters ran out of aluminum.
    1. Old electrician
      Old electrician April 18 2021 15: 24
      +3
      You yourself lucidly answered where the strategic metal aluminum went. That is why it was not enough for 62440 Yak-1, LaGG-3, MiG-3, Yak-7, Yak-9, La-5, La-5FN, La-7 and Yak-3. Stalin was a wise politician and supreme commander in chief, he knew how to break the back of fascism.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 15: 47
        0
        Quote: Old electrician
        You yourself lucidly answered where the strategic metal aluminum went.

        For everything except the right one?
        Quote: Old electrician
        Stalin was a wise politician and supreme commander in chief, he knew how to break the back of fascism.

        Oh yes, well done.
  • Alf
    Alf April 18 2021 15: 56
    +4
    Quote: Old electrician
    innocently repressed hero of the Soviet Union P.V. Rychagova.

    Innocent? Isn't this the same Rychagov who, before the war, excluded the basics of air combat from his studies under his slogan - Let's not figure? Or was it not Rychagov who managed to get the radio stations off the planes on the grounds that the weight was heavy?
    1. Old electrician
      Old electrician April 18 2021 16: 23
      +5
      So I'm talking about the same thing. When I reread the biographies of innocent victims of political repression, I want to dig them up and shoot them for an encore.
      1. Alf
        Alf April 18 2021 21: 39
        +1
        Quote: Old electrician
        So I'm talking about the same thing. When I reread the biographies of innocent victims of political repression, I want to dig them up and shoot them for an encore.

        Do you even mark with quotes or emoticons ..
    2. Titus_2
      Titus_2 April 19 2021 01: 14
      +1
      Right before the war he played with airfields and redeployment, all the Germans on a silver platter that his actions could not be called sabotage.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 19 2021 16: 05
        +2
        Quote: Titus_2
        Right before the war he played with airfields and redeployment, all the Germans on a silver platter that his actions could not be called sabotage.

        The failure of the reconstruction of airfields in 1940 was the merit of the 5th Directorate of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the Spacecraft, which thwarted everything that was possible: design, distribution of materials and construction itself. As a result of the actions of this management:
        - aerodromes that did not have the physical or legal capacity to lengthen the runway to the new standards were charged for the reconstruction,
        - the distribution of materials did not correspond to the needs of the builders (that is, there were materials - but they were sent to where they are not needed),
        - a carousel of fuel tanks was arranged (tanks of one plant were sent to another district, where there was a plant - and so on),
        - the reconstruction was often carried out without projects and estimates, therefore, the impossibility of its implementation was found out after significant funds were invested in the airfield.
        https://kris-reid.livejournal.com/258992.html
        That is why in 1941 the NKVD had to be involved in the reconstruction.
  • mister-red
    mister-red April 18 2021 22: 50
    +2
    The nicknames "Lacquered Guaranteed Coffin" and "Flying Log" for the LAGG-3 were invented by representatives of the liberal dignity of the Perestroika era, who had nothing to do with aviation.

    I read about the first version of the decoding of the name as a schoolboy in the 70s, alas, I can't say where anymore. "Liberal honor" did not exist at that time, or, more precisely, it did not stick out.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA April 19 2021 15: 44
    +1
    Quote: Old electrician
    The MiG-3 was a high-altitude fighter.

    The MiG-1 and MiG-3 were developed as high-speed fighters and went to the mixed air divisions of the army aviation. They got the altitude "in the load" together with the AM-35 engine.

    Quote: Old electrician
    The problem with the LaGG-3 really was, and it was that in the summer of 1941, the LaGG-3, like the Yak-1, were raw machines with a lot of childhood diseases, while the debut of their opponent, Messer, took place back in the war in Spain.

    The main problem of the LaGG-3 was the workmanship, which was not very good even before the war, but decreased even more during the war.
    The quality of vehicles built in the summer and fall of 1941 turned out to be even lower than that of pre-war assembly fighters. The fact is that unskilled personnel were involved in the assembly of the aircraft, trying to fulfill the assigned tasks. Quality sacrificed to quantity. The frontal resistance of the aircraft increased, as a result of operational and combat characteristics decreased again.
    If the pre-war LaGG-3s reached a maximum speed of about 575 km / h, then the LaGGs of the 4th series barely gained 549 km / h, the rate of climb drastically decreased (from 750 m / min to 600 m / min). ceiling and range (from 1100 km to 870 km).

    However, this was a misfortune for all domestic cars - during the transition from prototypes to the series, the performance characteristics dropped sharply (the speed could sink by 30-40 km / h). Perhaps the only aircraft in which the series and the prototype showed similar characteristics was the La-5 - because its prototypes were made on the basis of serial ones. smile
    Quote: Old electrician
    The nicknames "Lacquered Guaranteed Coffin" and "Flying Log" for the LAGG-3 were invented by representatives of the liberal dignity of the Perestroika era, who had nothing to do with aviation. For them, the main thing was to smack a ball of dirt in the Red Army Air Force.

    It's not about the liberals. On LaGG-3 regiments were rearmed that had previously flown on I-16 and I-153. Naturally, after these machines, LaGG was perceived as a heavy iron (especially if you try to fight on it as on the I-16).
  • Serg koma
    Serg koma April 18 2021 06: 44
    +10
    Probably, before starting the story about the Polikarpov I-185 fighter, you should immediately admit that this the story will not work out impassive and objective... Alas, I can't do anything about it
    - probably explains a lot.
    The aviation industry was led not only by Yakovlev, not one who decided the fate of the country's aviation. The I-185 demanded significantly higher costs of metal and labor-intensive work, therefore the cost was higher. So they decided (probably) that it is better to achieve air superiority by increasing the mass and simplicity of the design.
    The re-profiling of aircraft factories, which at that moment were working at the limit of their capabilities, the lack of highly qualified personnel, both at factories and in aviation units, crossed out the fate of the I-185. These are possible reasons for the rejection of the I-185 - it was discontinued from production and design, although it was a very promising aircraft, but for our industry 1941-43 - "the plane of tomorrow"... IMHO
    PS In tank building, the fate of the T-43 is probably similar to the fate of the I-185
    1. unknown
      unknown April 18 2021 10: 17
      0
      One of the I-180 variants had a design similar to the I-16. Already technologically mastered.
      Combining the I-180 with the M-82 engine could gain time and get a decent fighter with an air-cooled engine earlier than the La.
      Of course, Yakovlev was not the only one in charge of the aviation industry.
      The triumvirate of the LAGG creators also had very, very not weak garters at the top.
      Only who had the idea of ​​making an airplane using delta wood.
      It is clear that making delta-wood furniture for the grandiose Palace of the Soviets is one thing, but a fighter ... And so, the construction of the Palace stopped, and delta-wood had to be attached somewhere.
      It would be better if they (the LAGG triumvirate) squeezed the I-180 from Polikarpov ...
      1. Serg koma
        Serg koma April 18 2021 15: 53
        +1
        Quote: ignoto
        One of the I-180 variants had a design similar to the I-16. Already technologically mastered.
        Combining the I-180 with the M-82 engine could gain time and get a decent fighter with an air-cooled engine earlier than the La.

        About "squeezed out". Even after all the failures, the I-180 was put into production, they hoped for it, they spent money, resources, time, production capacity on it ...
        Now, remember the M-82 engine, when it was "worked out" and put into production?
        Convinced of the high qualities of the M-82, NI Gusarov sent a protest to the Central Committee expressing disagreement with the decision. The decision was canceled, and on May 22, 1941 the engine, designated M-82, underwent repeated state tests and was put into mass production.

        And what should N.N. Polikarpov, "slaughter" the M-82 engine on the I-185 for the sake of the I-180? Personally, what would you do with two gliders for one motor? If you were a designer, which aircraft would you prefer?
        And yet, for some reason you completely forgot about the I-21.
        The I-21 fighter was a deep modernization of the same I-16 by installing an M-105 liquid-cooled engine. Thanks to this approach to design, 60-70% of the parts and assemblies of the new fighter were similar or directly identical with the I-16 parts, which, in turn, promised the possibility of rapid deployment of the I-21 serial production.

        Meanwhile - on January 14, 1940, Polikarpov and Yangel in a letter to the NKAP reported: "The construction of a military series is underway extremely slowly, all previously given deadlines have been disrupted..., director of plant number 21 almost all designers from I-180 transferred to I-21".
        So who got who and what "squeezed out" is not for us to judge.
        And in pursuit, for clarity -
        "Work on the plane And-180 Begins deploy Not only on the military seriesbut on the first и on the second series... The main issue that slows down the completion and overflight of the I-180 aircraft is question with the M-88 motor", - Polikarpov wrote to Yakovlev on November 3, 1940
        "The resumption of work on three I-180 aircraft, built as a standard for the serial production of plant No. 21, cannot be permitted. Further work on the refinement and testing of these aircraft is impractical, in view of the existing decision on the plant's program for 1941. At present, all attention should be paid to the fulfillment of the new assignment received by the plant. " - Yakovlev
    2. Alexandra
      Alexandra April 19 2021 01: 25
      0
      And what about the reasons for the withdrawal from production in 1942 (naturally in favor of Yakovlev's fighters) of a much more complex Tu-2 aircraft?

      "Unexpectedly, at the beginning of the fourth quarter of 1942, when the plant reached a steady rhythm of Tu-2 production, the order of the NKAP No.763 of October 10, 1942 came:

      "In pursuance of the GKO decree in order to increase the production of fighter aircraft, I ORDER:

      1. Director / Factory No.166 Comrade Sokolov: a) stop production of Tu-166 aircraft at plant No.2. The equipment, fixtures and technical documentation for the Tu-2 aircraft available at the plant should be retained in full; b) to supply the production of Yak-166 aircraft at plant No.9 ... "
      1. Serg koma
        Serg koma April 19 2021 13: 33
        +1
        Quote: AlexanderA
        In pursuance of the GKO decree in order to increase the production of fighter aircraft,

        What is there to comment on? The country needed fighters.
        On October 7, 1942, Stalin wrote to Roosevelt: “We are ready temporarily completely abandon the supply of tanks, artillery, ammunition, pistols, etc. But at the same time, we are now in dire need of increase in the supply of fighter aircraft modern type (for example, "Airacobra") ".
        And what "debugged" fighter needed to be urgently put on the conveyor?
        By the decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of July 2, 1945, the plant was awarded the Order of the Red Banner of Labor for exemplary accomplished tasks for the production of combat aircraft, 321 workers of the plant and trust No. 2 were awarded orders and medals. In total, during the war years, the Omsk aircraft plant No. 166 produced 78 Tu-2 dive bombers, 1405 Yak-7 fighters and about 2000 Yak-9U fighters.

        Read the lend-lease delivery protocol for the period from July 1, 1942 to June 30, 1943 (signed December 9 1942 year.) - bombers were needed, bought and resumed production.
        Again to Tu-2
        The third "103" was already under construction in Omsk. It was equipped with M-82 radial air-cooled engines. The bomber was sent into flight in the fall of 1941, and the tests were delayed for several months due to the low reliability of the engines. Meanwhile, in the spring of 1942, the aircraft received the official designation - Tu-2.
        Military tests of the aircraft began in May 1942, the flight and combat qualities of the bomber were rated very highly, but at the same time, the "dampness" and lack of knowledge of the design were constantly noted. And production was mastered slowly, as a result, in October 1942, the production of Tu-2 was stopped.
        17.07.1943 was resumed full-scale production of Tu-2 with two motors M-82FN, which was named "product 61» or Tu-2S.


        Stop looking for "enemies of the people", treat the facts objectively, taking into account the realities, opportunities and needs of that time.
        1. Alexandra
          Alexandra April 19 2021 14: 31
          0
          What is there to comment on? The country needed fighters.


          Certainly. The country needed both good bombers and good fighters superior to enemy fighters. Well, they would have removed from production the non-shining LTH IL-4 (produced in 1943, 1568) or Li-2 (produced in 1943, 618) from production consuming scarce duralumin.

          Maybe you think factory # 166 saved the country with its release of fighters by giving a huge number of fighters? For the whole of 1943, plant No. 166 produced only 732 fighters. 5 percent of the total Soviet production of 14672 fighters in 1943.

          Stop looking for "enemies of the people"


          I hope Shakhurin is objective in your eyes?

          “Can you, dear Alexey Ivanovich, give at least one example when Stalin, giving this or that order in the field of aircraft production, was wrong?

          Answer: Yes, this happened, although quite rarely. [213] And above, in these answers to you, dear Georgy Alexandrovich, I have already noted that sometimes it was very difficult to persuade Stalin when they were offered a deliberately erroneous decision.

          I will give just one example. In 1942, a new front-line bomber Tu-2 was tested at one of the Siberian factories. The tests there dragged on. And the Tu-2 regiment, sent to the Kalinin front for military trials, showed itself from the best side. (The commander of the aviation of this front was the famous test pilot Hero of the Soviet Union M.M. Gromov.)

          Since the Siberians' tests were delayed, Stalin gave instructions to remove the Tu-2 from production and organize the production of fighters at the plant where the bomber was produced.

          None of our arguments had any effect on him, and the production of the Tu-2 was stopped.

          But then, twenty days later, an act on the front-line tests of the Tupolev bomber comes with its excellent assessment and with many signatures of pilots, engineers, regiment and division commanders. And on top was a resolution: “I approve. Major General of Aviation M. Gromov ". The aircraft is rated very high.

          Stalin calls me at about five or six in the evening. I go into his office. Stalin is alone. On a long table covered with blue cloth is a copy of the Tu-2 test report.

          - It turns out that they praise the car. Did you read?

          - Yes, I did. In vain they took the plane out of production. And how many reproaches I have received from you.

          “And yet you did the wrong thing, Comrade Shakhurin,” Stalin said suddenly.

          - And in what?

          - You should have complained about me to the Central Committee.

          He said and walked further through the office, puffing on his pipe. It was not a joke on his part then. He spoke quite seriously and for that moment, perhaps even sincerely.

          I said nothing. It never occurred to any of us to write about Stalin in the Central Committee. In the best case, they would have laughed at this.

          After a pause, I suggested:

          - On the site of the evacuated plant, a bomber plant is being restored. This enterprise, of course, is not as large as in Siberia, but it is possible to organize the production of Tu-2.

          Stalin agreed:

          - Okay, prepare a solution.

          And the Tupolev bomber began to be produced. During the war years, we managed to make about 800 cars. "

          A story about how a friend of all Soviet aircraft designers Yakovlev defended the Tupolev bomber, which was being removed from production in favor of his Yak, but could not protect, will you give? Or was Yakovlev a friend not to all Soviet aircraft designers of that time?
          1. Serg koma
            Serg koma April 19 2021 19: 20
            0
            Quote: AlexanderA
            Well, they would have removed from production the non-shining LTH IL-4 (produced in 1943, 1568) or Li-2 (produced in 1943, 618) from production consuming scarce duralumin.


            “Instruct: 1) vols. Shakhurin and Shcherbakov urgently put into operation the aircraft factory number 23 for the production of IL-4; 2) report to Comrades. Stalin and Molotov every 2 days "- April 18, 1942.
            Comparison of the need for BB and DB (besides, also naval aviation), plus weave Li-2 into this boiler ...
            Give you free rein. all factories would rivet only I-180, then you should go to Comrade Beria)))
            1) Supply the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry under the control of com. Beria and Malenkov, to oblige these comrades to take all the necessary urgent measures to launch the production of aircraft ...
            2) To oblige the People's Commissar of the Aviation Industry and his deputies unquestioningly follow all instructions of Comrades. Beria and Malenkov ...

            And you all - "squeezed", "enemies of the people" ...
            1. Alexandra
              Alexandra April 20 2021 12: 24
              0
              Quote: Serg Koma
              Comparison of the need for BB and DB (besides, also naval aviation), plus weave Li-2 into this boiler ...


              "... Even during the Soviet-Finnish war, AE Golovanov, at that time the commander of the crew of the transport PS-84, tried, and not unsuccessfully, to use the Li-2 as a bomber. The war that began in 1941, heavy losses of the Soviet aviation in its first months, in the most natural way led to the decision on the mass production of the bomber version of the PS-84 ... The military modification differed from the civilian by the presence of external bomb racks, mounted outside the bomb sight and defensive weapons.

              The aircraft was produced at plant number 34 in Tashkent (where the equipment of plant number 84 was evacuated) and number 126 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur (since 1946). A total of 4863 vehicles were produced.

              During the war, the Li-2 was armed with many ADD units. Among them: the 101st and 102nd transport regiments of the 1st ad dd, the 53rd and 62nd ad dd, the 340th ap dd 54th ad dd, etc. Li-2, along with their "relatives brothers "- C-47 aircraft, supplied to the Soviet Union under Lend-Lease, participated in almost all operations of the Air Force and ADD in the Great Patriotic War ...

              ... Unlike the Li-2, which was used as a transport and bomber aircraft at the same time, the "American" was a purely transport vehicle, with no defensive weapons. The S-47 favorably differed from its Soviet counterpart in more powerful and reliable engines, convenience for the crew (instrumentation, heating, etc.).

              There were not many of them in the ADD regiments, and they were used mainly by the command echelon. However, as part of the C-47 transport formations, they actively participated in offensive operations (to supply troops), to communicate with partisans, to transfer ammunition and weapons to the rebels in Slovakia and Yugoslavia, to transport important persons ... "
              1. Serg koma
                Serg koma April 22 2021 07: 24
                0
                Quote: AlexanderA
                During the war, the Li-2 was armed with many ADD units.

                Well, now Li-2 was recorded as a "purebred bomber" recourse
                1. Alexandra
                  Alexandra April 22 2021 13: 11
                  0
                  In 1942-44. 1667 Li-2 were produced. Many of them were used in ADD as night bombers. At the same time, 1942 C-707s were received under Lend-Lease from October 47. I don’t know about you, but I would prefer that the scarce aluminum went not to the non-glamorous aircrafts that were used to a large extent as night bombers, but to the Tu-2. The USSR could receive additional C-47s under Lend-Lease, at least instead of some of the A-20 planes, good cars, but clearly inferior to the Tu-2, moreover, which turned out to be on the Soviet-German front clearly unsuitable for their basic purpose - a heavy attack aircraft ...
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 20 2021 17: 25
              +1
              Quote: Serg Koma
              Comparison of the need for BB and DB (besides, also naval aviation),

              IL-4 in naval aviation in 1943 is a toothless target. They were taken only because there were no other torpedo bombers. As soon as the A-20 appeared, the Il-4 was immediately replaced by Bostons.
              By the way, Long-Range Aviation did not disdain with medium bombers either - remember the regiments on the B-25.
              1. Serg koma
                Serg koma April 22 2021 07: 26
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                They were taken only because there were no other torpedo bombers.

                drinks "Fish without fish and cancer" crying
    3. mmaxx
      mmaxx April 23 2021 17: 38
      0
      And that's why no one wants to understand this? Airplanes were needed today, but not the best ones tomorrow. The whole country was at stake. A person who is even a little familiar with production will not find fault with Yakovlev. He was in charge of all production. And the fact that La-5 took off speaks volumes about it best. He could destroy this plane with one little finger. For this, almost nothing had to be done. The plant could not stand and wait for some La-5. But there was a notion that no one succeeded with air-cooling engines, so it could be with Lavochkin.
      And as for the I-185, everything is clear. There was nothing to release. And there was no way to wait, when something will happen. The country was clamoring for planes right now. People somehow knew how to glue the pieces of wood. And there were no factories, no specialists, no equipment to rebuild production for aluminum. By the end of the war, they relaxed a little. We launched the same Tu-2. And if the fighters could fight in their own form, then they fought. Moreover, by the 44th year, the German aviation had already been beaten.
  • Ingvard chijoff
    Ingvard chijoff April 18 2021 06: 46
    +8
    Blessed memory of the Great Man and many thanks for the article.
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy April 18 2021 06: 50
    +2
    behind whom loomed the People's Commissar of Foreign Trade and Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars Anastas Mikoyan.
    Yes, from Ilyich to Ilyich, without a heart attack and paralysis. (from an anecdote) "It is necessary to have dullness ..." (from a Jewish anecdote)
    1. unknown
      unknown April 18 2021 10: 19
      -2
      In fact, all three groups of creators of new fighters (MIG, LAGG, YAK) were thieves.
      And they actively used it. And against Polikarpov, and squabbling with each other.
  • Konnick
    Konnick April 18 2021 07: 11
    +4
    As the pilots say, with a good engine and the fence will fly. And what can we say about the fact that with an excellent glider and the corresponding engine, an excellent plane will turn out. But not a word about the comparative cost of Yakovlev's and Polikarpov's planes.
  • Constanty
    Constanty April 18 2021 07: 11
    0
    One of the best, if not the best, article by the author.

    Sadly - shows that competence is not always the deciding factor, but often the ability to intrigue and have high supporters.

    ... And Stalin's sympathies too. After the death (under completely unclear circumstances) of his favorite Chkalov, she, rather, was not on the side of Polikarpov.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim April 18 2021 12: 34
      +8
      Another air fantasy.
      And Polikarpov was so "squeezed", so "used administrative resources" that in the most difficult conditions of the first years of the war, with a shortage of everything and everything, they were allowed to bring their I-1943 to the middle of 185.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty April 21 2021 12: 18
        +1
        So how can we explain this, for example, after the Order of the Defense Committee under the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR dated July 1, 1939 "On the preparation for serial production of a modified fighter in 1939", which said, in particular, that Plant No. 21 in Gorki should was to start serial production of the I-180 aircraft with the M-88 engine.

        Factory director Voronin refused to produce I-180 !!!

        Refused. And despite several committees and pressure, new resolutions, he remained true to his opinion.
        Recall that we are talking about those times when people were imprisoned for much less things or even "against the wall."
        Therefore, who sabotaged the production of the aircraft with impunity, he had to enlist the support of someone powerful and omnipotent. In my opinion, this is a clear demonstration that Polikarpov "fell out of favor."

        His admiration for Pashinin's plane does not change anything here.
  • viktor_ui
    viktor_ui April 18 2021 07: 20
    +1
    A wonderful excursion into the history of the USSR. Written with soul! ROMANU RESPECT.
  • ermak124.0
    ermak124.0 April 18 2021 07: 22
    0
    Bravo! Author, thanks !!!
  • Al_lexx
    Al_lexx April 18 2021 07: 24
    +3
    Thank you for a good article. I didn't learn anything new for myself (I started at the Yakovlev Design Bureau, was personally acquainted and I know all this gossip by heart, from an early age), but it was nice to listen to another person.
    Everything is true and everything is true.
    1. hhhhhhh
      hhhhhhh April 18 2021 07: 41
      +1
      what rumors from the article are supported by documents?
      1. Al_lexx
        Al_lexx April 18 2021 09: 09
        0
        Quote: hhhhhhh
        what rumors from the article are supported by documents?

        Kozma. Self-talk implies a severe mental disorder.
        1. hhhhhhh
          hhhhhhh April 18 2021 09: 25
          -2
          "Everything is true and everything is true." - have you read the beginning of the article? "Today, very often there are materials on the topic" And if "" - an article from the series "And if", by definition, cannot be true. Truth is a fact.

          Just don't need me about YOU ...
  • hhhhhhh
    hhhhhhh April 18 2021 07: 40
    0
    “Agree, it is both mean and shameful.” - write smart articles based on your interpretations of invented rumors.
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 18 2021 07: 45
    +10
    In general, the first I-185 with the M-90 engine (power 1750 hp, by 1942 brought up to 2080 hp) of the Zaporozhye plant was built in May 1940. Accordingly, then the plane could fly, but ... The engine turned out to be useless for anything. Complete substandard, not passed bench tests and suitable only for blowdowns.

    What kind of condition can we talk about in May 1940, if the first experimental M-90 engine was assembled in November 1939?
    The I-185 with the M-90 engine was never built. The engine that entered the OKB in April 1940 was not intended for flight. It was, in fact, an MMG for working out the design of the engine mount and hood.
  • Free wind
    Free wind April 18 2021 07: 49
    -1
    The death of V.P. Chkalov. The I-16 was a frankly bad plane, it was not maneuverable, it was uncontrollable. The pilot fought, by and large, with the plane, and not with the enemy. Put on the car in mismatched tires, and get out on the road. From the outside, maybe someone will say that the car is maneuverable, there are some feints on the road. The driver will curse everything and everyone, since the car is uncontrollable. but you also have to hit the enemy. In Pokryshkin's memoirs there is an episode of how he got the Aircobra. He seemed to be very disappointed. Unfortunately, no one questioned the hard workers of the war, ordinary soldiers, who were glad to have a scrap of newspaper and a pinch of tobacco. You can't raise fees on this. Well, it was in the memoirs, Cobra, neither this nor that. Studers, so-so, dull shit. Tigers with panthers? Fi, yes we drove them to the watering hole in flocks.
    1. mr.ZinGer
      mr.ZinGer April 18 2021 08: 17
      +5
      The I-16 was difficult, but bad for 1933, you got excited.
  • 2112vda
    2112vda April 18 2021 07: 58
    +2
    The essence of a person, regardless of the social system, does not change. Greed, envy, selfishness are the main vices of a person. Yakovlev was not alone. The same Ilyushin and a number of TsAGI employees put their hands to repressions against Taubin and Baburin. True, the main role was played by Marshal Kulik and Shpitalny. The designers died, but the guns built according to the MP-6 scheme are still in use. It is not entirely clear to me why, after one test of the M-64 engine, all work on it was canceled. One test only shows that it shows nothing. There was clearly an order from above. The completed M-64 would allow for the modernization of the I-16, raising its characteristics. The BF-109 was the same age as the I-16, though a little younger, but that did not stop him from fighting the entire war. The remotorization of the I-16 would have made it possible to have a good escort fighter. But Polikarpov was purposefully supplanted by the "young and early". Now the picture is the same, nothing changes.
    1. Elturisto
      Elturisto April 18 2021 09: 46
      -9
      One more thing: the adventurer Taubin was correctly shot and it is a pity that Tupolev and Polikarpov were shot. The man throwing at Yakovlev is a bastard.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 19 2021 16: 56
      +3
      Quote: 2112vda
      The same Ilyushin and a number of TsAGI employees put their hands to repressions against Taubin and Baburin.

      Taubin himself had a hand in repressions against Taubin.
      The designer himself, on his own initiative, volunteered to make a light aircraft cannon. Done. Achieved acceptance into service before the completion of tests. New aircraft were put into production under the cannon. And suddenly it turns out that the gun needs to be improved - serial guns give more failures than experienced competitors.
      What is GAU doing? Turns to the "bloody gebnya"? No - gives time for revision. And then he gives it again.
      What is Taubin doing? Taking on the revision? No - opens a new topic: anti-aircraft guns. Based on the same gun that doesn't work. And he attributes all the problems with the gun to the curvature of the workers of mass production, who cannot bring his brilliant idea to life. As a result, the cannon does not work, production aircraft were found to be unarmed, topics on anti-aircraft guns were closed for lack of a weapon.
      And the worst thing is that this situation was repeated with Taubin's air machine gun - one to one. In the end, the authorities ran out of patience - and Taubin received a VMN.
      And the cannon worked, but only with a new weakened shot.
  • stepka_razin
    stepka_razin April 18 2021 08: 10
    +5
    We could have a decent answer to all German technology. The king among fighters, created by the mind of the King of fighters Nikolai Nikolaevich Polikarpov. But intrigues and other ugly phenomena of that time did not let him take off.

    Hmm, and again an article in the form - "won, not thanks to, but in spite of." Apparently the order was lowered from above, but as usual ...
    In general, everything is as usual, such a plane was wonderful, but the bloody USSR with bloody research institutes, did not want to make an engine for it. Apparently, in the opinion of the author, creating a high-power piston engine is the same as going into a clutch, and even getting equipment for its mass production and a sane technological level for a complex device is like two fingers on the asphalt

    Apparently in the opinion of the author and the breakthrough Me.262 in 1939, "intrigues and other ugly phenomena of that time did not let him take off."
    Well, what about the BMW company personally, how much it pulled with the P3302 fine-tuning.
    Although it will begin now
  • KERMET
    KERMET April 18 2021 08: 42
    +7
    Another article for the sake of srach, instead of a thoughtful analysis of the little information that remained on the I-185, a banal reprint of long-known stamps from books by other authors
    1. Vovk
      Vovk April 18 2021 09: 54
      +1
      The performance characteristics of any aircraft are highly dependent on the engine.
      But with this in the industry of the USSR in the pre-war and war years there were problems.
      The simplest example, on which engines the restored aircraft of the USSR from the Second World War are now flying - either the American Allison V1710 or the Chinese ASh-62.
      It should be borne in mind that those aircraft performance characteristics that were obtained during testing and real in battle are different things.
      Over and over again spears are crossed over the I-185, why did Polikarpov fall into disgrace?
      Yes, the reasons are not that the tester Chkalov died, but that the high performance characteristics of the I-185 were achieved by using scarce materials for the aircraft industry.
      Why do you think they put a bunch of aircraft designers, and Polikarpov in exile? Yes, due to the violation of the ban on the use of scarce materials in the creation of aircraft.
      Polikarpov did not want to design an airplane "cheap" using wooden materials ...
      1. KERMET
        KERMET April 18 2021 10: 16
        +2
        You didn't confuse Polikarpov with Sukhoi with the case? Polikarpov almost always used mixed designs. On which, by the way, the war ended.
        By the way, guess three times whose words these are:
        "We are building combat aircraft of today. We must use designs proven by operation and serial production, from materials that are not in short supply today, technologically mastered in serial production or obviously not difficult to master."
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 18 2021 09: 02
    +4
    The M-90 had a short piston stroke, and the M-71 had a long one. Truth? Or are they both long-stroke? And how, in the author's opinion, did this affect the performance of the engine?
  • lelik613
    lelik613 April 18 2021 09: 12
    +1
    In vain, Roman ... Polikarpov after the I-16 ran on the spot. I-17 is a dummy rather suitable for Hughes. And the 180 failed because of the engine and the desire to quickly remake the I-16. Lots of topics ended in vain. And if the I-200 had not been taken under Mikoyan, then there would have been no car; And by the way, how would the selected project for the Mikulin engine help the creation of the I-185? People? With which they found a new stillborn theme, under a new, non-existent engine. Finita. Dvigatelists rested their foreheads against the wall and were able to move only during the lend-lease, having received new machines, materials and ideas.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 09: 19
    +2
    You can also recall the episode with the I-180, which was put into service, but never put into production at the 21st plant, although it was in the plans for production. This is also an indicator of a planned economy in the context of a boycott of the industry leadership.
  • Revolver
    Revolver April 18 2021 09: 41
    +8
    The motors were a sore. In an amicable way, only Germany (Daimler-Benz), Britain (Rolls Royce), and (with an asterisk) the USA had normal engines. And everyone else - and not only the USSR, but also France, Italy, Japan - is not very good. But even if Polikarpov had a motor, the country did not have aluminum for his all-metal I-185. And before the war there was a shortage, and after the Germans occupied Ukraine, in general, there were no decent words on this topic, nor the metal itself. And if we consider that aluminum was still used for tank diesel engines, then Polikarpov did not have it from the word "at all". Ilyushin Il-2 is a steel armored capsule, and a wooden tail is attached to it, which cannons of German fighters and anti-aircraft guns carried to pieces, while an aluminum one would have withstood a lot of hits, and would have weighed less. Yakovlev had an all-metal Yak-3 on his drawing boards, and produced the Yak-7 and Yak-9 - a frame made of steel pipes, covered with canvas. And Lavochkin did plywood La-5 not because he did not understand how much better aluminum is. When the supply of aluminum under Lend-Lease was adjusted, Lavochkin was allowed to change part of the power set for metal, and the La-7 of a mixed design turned out, practically not inferior to the all-metal I-185. And after the war, Lavochkin made the all-metal La-9, and it was better than the I-185.
    And the fact that Polikarpov died young, because then oncology was in its infancy, and the cancer that is completely treated in our days was then, alas, a death sentence.
    1. 2112vda
      2112vda April 18 2021 10: 05
      +3
      All motors were a sore! Read the story of the same DB-605, what its initial resource was and how much the Germans suffered with it. The same picture was for the Germans and Americans with their stars. A motor is such a thing, especially an aviation motor, it does not work out quickly, especially on the then existing test equipment and used, mainly, indirect methods of parameter control. Even now, when analyzers take more than 50 parameters of a running engine, it is not possible to quickly bring the motor up. The M-71 engine had to be seriously dealt with. All funding was thrown into the refinement of the liquids. The result was a complete rejection of liquid workers around the world at the end of the war. Naturally, in some places old planes with liquid fuel (Mustang, our Yaks and Eli) have been preserved. All civil aviation switched to air vents. Here is the answer to the question of who was right, Polikarpov or Yakovlev and his comrades.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 47
        +2
        Quote: 2112vda
        A motor is such a thing, especially an aviation one, it does not work out quickly,

        The Americans took 5 years from the first launch at the stand to the serial aircraft with this engine, the British took about the same. This is a perfectly normal situation. ASh-82 was put on airplanes, in an amicable way, unfinished, and the throwing of Polikarpov with imported engines well emphasize what ass he was in with his theoretically correct ideas. The corsair is a good plane, but not for the USSR in 41.
    2. KERMET
      KERMET April 18 2021 10: 30
      +5
      The I-185 was not all-metal - remember this at last or write it down on a piece of paper
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 45
      +1
      Quote: Nagan
      The motors were a sore

      Yes.
      Quote: Nagan
      Normally, only Germany (Daimler-Benz), Britain (Rolls Royce), and (with an asterisk) the USA had engines.

      Only the British. The Americans, due to the lack of engines, ruined their entire futuristic fighter program of the 39th year and were forced to fly either on machines of the 30s, or in haste alterations. The Germans, it would seem, at first were not inferior to the British, but in the 40s they began to lag behind, the further - the more.
      Quote: Nagan
      But even if Polikarpov had a motor, the country did not have aluminum for his all-metal I-185. And before the war there was a shortage

      The scarce aluminum was enough for 6656 SB aircraft. The entire production of the twice lighter Me-109 until the 41st year inclusive - 7896 cars.
      Quote: Nagan
      and after the Germans occupied Ukraine, in general, there were no decent words on this topic, nor the metal itself.

      1100 Li-2, 11 thousand Pe-2.
      Quote: Nagan
      that aluminum still went to tank diesel engines,

      Why can't you make a tank diesel, I don't know, from cast iron? What is the purpose of spending aluminum, since it is so scarce, to lighten a 26 (T-34) or 48 (KV) ton machine by how much, 500 kilograms? Isn't it sabotage?
      Quote: Nagan
      Ilyushin Il-2 is a steel armored capsule, and a wooden tail is attached to it,

      And the aluminum center section.
      Quote: Nagan
      And after the war, Lavochkin made the all-metal La-9, and it was better than the I-185.

      Large, but five. But yesterday.
  • Elturisto
    Elturisto April 18 2021 09: 43
    -6
    The article is anti-Soviet and deceitful in its essence. The finished bastard of the polycarps, together with his accomplices, left the country in the face of war with the I-16, I-15bis and I-153. Only a complete idiot or criminal could promote in 1939 (after Spain and Khalkhin-Gol ) brace biplanes. If not for the intervention of the Politburo of the Central Committee and Stalin personally, the USSR would have had a full-time I-180 that killed Chkalov and Suzi, and nothing more. In this regard, an attempt to cast a shadow on Yakovlev, Lavochkin and Mikoyan is a betrayal.
    1. 2112vda
      2112vda April 18 2021 10: 20
      +5
      Chkalov was killed not by the I-180, but by the people who rummaged in the engine before the flight. Here the principle worked, did something nasty, joy to my heart. You have a "rich imagination" about anti-Soviet propaganda in this article. She's not here. The fact that intense competition has always existed in the design environment is also true. Do you think the designer is all "white and fluffy"? You are greatly mistaken. When it comes to material benefits, they try to discredit the competitor, and this is regardless of the social system. For the sake of interest, read about Shpitalny, how many designers he simply forced to leave. The reason is simple, more advanced weapons were made that interfered with the Spitalny's monopoly position. The point here is not in the social order, but in the moral qualities of this or that person. Rogues have always been, are and will be more successful than decent people. Socialism and capitalism have nothing to do with it.
      1. Elturisto
        Elturisto April 18 2021 12: 12
        -5
        Enough fantasizing. The history of the I-180 is well known. Ok Polikarpov has blinded him in haste, obviously emergency. The whitewashing of scoundrels like Polikarpov or Taubin is anti-conscientious propaganda, from the principle - "Look how damned commies spread rot geniuses."
        1. 2112vda
          2112vda April 18 2021 14: 02
          +2
          You are definitely a "stoned internationalist"! I repeat once more. What does the social order have to do with it? Or do you want to say that all communists, as one, are people with the highest moral qualities? And who destroyed the USSR, isn't it the top of the CPSU Central Committee? I repeat, under any social system, there will be scoundrels, opportunists and decent people in society. As always, scoundrels dominate, regardless of the social system. Polikarpov and Taubin with Baburin were not geniuses or geniots, they were talented designers. Talent and genius are somewhat different things.
          Well, how do you explain that after the war, they built aircraft only with air-cooled engines. In aviation, guns were used made on the basis of the 23 mm MP-6 cannon of Taubin and Baburin. We have that, Polikarpov, Taubin and Baburin from the Other World managed the designers. Shpitalny was removed from the development of aircraft weapons, Yakovlev simply "fizzled out" and could no longer oppose Sukhoi and Mikoyan. What is the "villain" Polikarpov's fault here too?
          1. Elturisto
            Elturisto April 18 2021 14: 25
            -3
            Why lie then. The social system, despite the fact that the communists put kovs like Taubin and Kalinin against the wall, and now adventurers and traitors are flourishing. Who else is the top of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, is it Gorbachev and Yeltsin or what? And who voted in 1996 for a zombie, the same The CPSU? What was done there on the basis of Taubin's design is there a link or so chatter under the matzah? Yes, the country's leadership in the late 30s made a big mistake in the personnel issue in relation to the scum and adventurers like Taubin, Polikarpov, Kalinin, Ginzburg and many others. However, the mistakes were quickly corrected and the villains were punished, not everything is true ...
            1. 2112vda
              2112vda April 18 2021 16: 58
              +1
              Your "zombie" if I understand correctly, this is EBN. By the way, he was a high-ranking party worker. Or was he the dissident who was being pressed? Now for Taubin and his cannon. The deputy managed to save the design bureau from disbandment, which was what Shpitalny was trying to achieve. Based on the MP-6 cannon, i.e. according to its scheme, the NS-37 cannon was developed. Later, the NS-45, NS-23, HP-23 guns were developed. Judging by the screensaver on your posts, you are the lover of matzo. Yes, about the physiognomy at your post. Read how Marx and Engels treated the Russian people. The leadership of the CPSU extolled ardent Russophobes. Can you tell me why? At that time, everything was decided by ardent communists, probably like you, now well, very effective managers. It was only then that the technical leadership was dominated by commissars with their "fiery slogans", and now managers with competent competencies. As a result, what then, what now, jumping from one extreme to another. Your attacks on the above constructors indicate only your ideological blinkeredness. Such people are the most dangerous for society, like the example of the Ukrainian banderonats.
              1. Elturisto
                Elturisto April 18 2021 18: 14
                -1
                Read the history of the I-180 tests, how Beria admonished the employees of the NKVD and the party organizer to pay attention to the design flaws of the aircraft - the absence of adjustable shutters on the engine, for example. By the way, Polikarpov, realizing what was wrong, refused to put his signature on the order for the I-180 tests :) I asked for a link to the materials that Taubin's work became the basis for the NS. It is known for certain that thanks to Taubin, the timely development of mass production of powerful VYa-23, so necessary for the IL-2, was disrupted. And how should Marx have treated RI and Nikolai Palkin, the strangler of revolutions? Moskabad for a long time, not Moscow ...
                1. 2112vda
                  2112vda April 19 2021 07: 33
                  -1
                  To identify the tsar with the entire people is very Marxist and communist. You still read Lenin's statements on this topic, read in his works that are not advertised and are in special storage. He was also a "lover of the Russian people". Any party is created by scoundrels with the aim of gaining unlimited power. They go to their goal without disdaining anything, including over corpses. I am for socialism, but God forbid that the communists return to power again. We tried it once, that's enough. We are not masochists. Well, with "ideologically stubborn" you can deal with legal methods.
                  1. Elturisto
                    Elturisto April 19 2021 11: 17
                    -1
                    The anti-communist socialist is what's new.
                    1. Alexandra
                      Alexandra April 19 2021 13: 42
                      +2
                      There were also National Socialists in Germany - ardent anti-communists. What kind of "return of the communists" can we talk about today? There are only opportunists dressed in red, abusing the old brand.
                      1. Elturisto
                        Elturisto April 19 2021 14: 47
                        0
                        All this can be attributed to the so-called patriots who dress up in cassocks and Russianness, but in fact, corrupt whores of foreign capitalists ...
                    2. 2112vda
                      2112vda April 20 2021 07: 27
                      -1
                      It is clear that you "passed by" in social studies. Do not publicly show your own illiteracy. Naturally, you haven’t heard anything about the Social Democratic parties. You don't know about the Swedish model of socialism either. Socialism is not a monopoly of the communists.
                      Your "ferocity" and lust for blood can be explained simply, there is an addicted essence in you that has taken complete control over you. Apparently, this entity was in the past a fierce murderer and sadist. It was then banged, and the restless essence toiled until it got hooked on you. No wonder Dostoevsky called people like you demons. Such people, as a rule, are mediocre and do not have pronounced talents, so they are furious.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 20 2021 07: 47
                        +1
                        Quote: 2112vda
                        You don't know about the Swedish model of socialism either.

                        Because there is no and never was socialism in Sweden? Because the nonsense about the "Swedish model of socialism" with a monarchy and a stock market was invented by the socialists themselves to answer the question: "One example of socialists without cannibalism?"
                      2. Elturisto
                        Elturisto April 20 2021 10: 09
                        -1
                        How cool it is about the essence. When pensions are completely abolished and the people of the Russian Federation for the most part switch to pasta, then the essence will manifest itself in you :) There is no socialism and never was. Sweden is an exceptionally rich country - iron, copper, hydro resources and fully used its neutral status for enrichment. There was such a subject of economic geography, but this discipline apparently passed by ... I understand baltika number 19 in the entrances -there was once .... Yes, and still incomprehensibly mediocre and not possessing pronounced talents) already captured the spirit, can you tell us more about your talents?
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA April 19 2021 17: 42
                +1
                Quote: 2112vda
                Later, the NS-45, NS-23, HP-23 guns were developed.

                Uh-huh ... for the MP-6 to finally work, only a little was needed - a new cartridge.
                Here are just the customer Taubin promised to make a cannon for 23x152, and not for 23x115.
          2. mister-red
            mister-red April 18 2021 23: 12
            0
            In aviation, guns made on the basis of the 23 mm MP-6 Taubin cannon were used

            As far as I remember, the pretensions to Taubin were due to the unreliability of this gun and the fact that he lied about the recoil force, which turned out to be twice as high as he announced. And he was ruined by his ebullient activity and inability to bring everything to the end.
            1. 2112vda
              2112vda April 19 2021 07: 22
              +1
              Explain how it happened that the VYa-23 gas cannon, with one cartridge, had less recoil force than the MP-6 cannon operating on the principle of barrel recoil with a short stroke? VYa-23 also had serious problems and it was brought up for more than a year. But according to the results of the war, guns built according to the MP-6 scheme remained in service. For some reason, the calculation of the recoil of the MP-6 cannon was carried out at TsAGI, the guys went crazy. "Dark story" with Taubin and Baburin. Kulik and Shpitalny pressed them, but one of their own wrote the denunciation. Until now, this topic is closed, because a very unpleasant truth may come out. Ilyushin also made his contribution, referring to the unacceptable recoil of the MP-6, although this did not stop him then from installing the VYa-23 with a higher recoil force. At all times, competitors were harshly eliminated when it comes to big money and privileges, they do not disdain anything. This is human ESSENCE.
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA April 20 2021 17: 54
                +1
                Quote: 2112vda
                "Dark story" with Taubin and Baburin. Kulik and Shpitalny pressed them, but one of their own wrote the denunciation.

                You know, if you hammer in the development of a cannon intended for production aircraft, and instead gush out new ideas, then no denunciations are needed. Here article 58 itself is drawn in full growth.
                In addition, the mess in OKB-16 was systemic - it continued even after the execution of Taubin.
                The third time, competitive tests on easel machine guns resumed on October 23 [1942]. Machine guns SP-1, Akulinin, Simonov, DS-42, SP-3, SHG and OKB-16 were tested.
                The OKB-16 machine gun was not allowed to test, because in the work of automation gave continuous delays. The remaining machine guns were admitted to competitive tests.

                These are not factory tests, these are competitive tests. Everything, the final - the winner takes everything. And OKB-16 sends an inoperative machine gun at them.
                It’s interesting, but in the OKB before testing the machine gun that - did not test it? Or hoped to slip into the ball - if the competitors are also doing badly?
                The 14,5-mm machine gun OKB-16 77-P Sokolova-Norova was submitted to the NIPSVO KA for testing on April 25, 1944. When testing the machine gun, 35 shots were fired, and 5 different delays were received. When eliminating the delay by manual reloading after 35 shots, the reloading handle was broken.
                It should be noted that to reload a machine gun, with the existing design of the reload handle is impossible, because the shooter does not have enough effort to set the shutter to the combat cock.

                The question is the same: how is it that machine gun jambs are found only at NIPSVO? what
                OKB-16 was especially good at sending defective anti-tank missiles for testing:
                Since February 42nd, three times these good people drove defective MFIs for testing. Three times they were sent to work better. And in August, they bring another rustle to NIPSVO ... with a crack on the bolt. And this shutter (surprise! Surprise!) Breaks even during the calibration of cartridges.

                Two years have passed ...
                ... in the test program, in addition to driving behind a car and hauling by the forces of calculation, there is, of course, also shooting on the subject "will it fall apart from recoil" - and the PTR from OKB-16 was sent ... but shot during the March tests on the survivability of the trunk.

                All quotes are from LJ SW. And Ulanov, who was digging the topic of domestic anti-tank weapons and wartime machine guns.
            2. Elturisto
              Elturisto April 19 2021 11: 20
              -1
              That is, to win the competition Taubin cheated? Well, there he deserves.
    2. Alexandra
      Alexandra April 19 2021 01: 35
      +1
      In the I-16 and I-153 by March 1943, the average number of sorties per loss was 143 and 93, respectively. The Yak-1 had 46.

  • Archemor
    Archemor April 18 2021 10: 55
    +3
    The article is very interesting, thanks to Roman.
    Consider it for our current life and it will immediately become clear why rockets do not fly, why the engine for the Su57 has not been adjusted so far. The same armchair warriors for whom KPIs are more important, and the same engineers who do not understand why their work is not needed by anyone and how to deal with it.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev April 18 2021 11: 49
    0
    The author, everything would be fine, but neither the Yak9 nor the La 5 were inferior to Messer at Stalingrad, firstly because the battles were usually up to 3000 meters, secondly, ours had the best climb rate, and the horizontal speed is of no interest to anyone, since it does not have values, unless of course the difference is hundreds of kilometers.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 18 2021 14: 49
      +2
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      The author, everything would be fine, but neither the Yak9 nor the La 5 were inferior to Messer at Stalingrad, firstly because the battles were usually up to 3000 meters, secondly, ours had the best climb rate, and the horizontal speed is of no interest to anyone, since it does not have values, unless of course the difference is hundreds of kilometers.

      How interesting.
      1. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev April 18 2021 17: 51
        0
        Fight is firstly an attempt to gain altitude and attack from above, as a consequence of the rate of climb in importance in the first place. Secondly, a fighter (except for free hunting) either attacks bombers and fighters covering them, or fights off enemy fighters, covering their bombers, or fighters clear the sky over a certain area. In all these cases, the fighter is tied up and cannot drive at maximum speed, and here the power of weapons, horizontal maneuverability, and acceleration characteristics come first.
        Messer had an advantage in diving speed, that is, he could escape, then yes.
        It is also necessary to take into account that a real fighter is beaten, darned, worn out, that is, in principle, it is not able to give out what an ideal one can.
        The Yak9 and La5 had a higher rate of climb, horizontal maneuverability, but had a limit on the dive speed, and the Messer was more armed, so that everything was decided by the pilot's experience and the conditions for the start of the battle.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 18 2021 19: 45
          +2
          Quote: Victor Sergeev
          In all these cases, the fighter is tied up and cannot drive at maximum speed, and here the power of weapons, horizontal maneuverability, and acceleration characteristics come first.

          The most maneuverable aircraft of the war with the best pilots fought like this.
          Dodging in this way from several attacks, John Touch understood the tactics of the Zero pilots, with whom, I remind you, he faced for the first time in his life. Based on the overwhelming advantage in speed and rate of climb, they repeatedly dived from above and behind, trying to "sit on the tail" of the attacked vehicle, and in case of failure they did not try to get into close combat or fire from the flank, but simply left the attack and almost vertically gaining altitude for a new one. As the fly-overs of the captured Zero in the fall of 1942 showed, an overclocked Japanese fighter could perform “an almost vertical climb, which could last from one and a half thousand (1500) to two thousand (2000) feet [450-600 m], depending on the speed in the beginning of the maneuver "

          An opponent who gets into horizontal combat is either inexperienced or stunned with impunity. Or he flies in a car that cannot afford vertical combat.

          By the way, about Zero. The holiday ended as follows.
          Before we had time to solve the problem that the “Fortresses” and “Liberators” represented, we had to face a new danger, which had almost the same dire consequences. It was a twin-engine fighter of the US Air Force Lockheed R-38 Lightning.

          Although the Curtiss R-40 Tomahawk and Bell R-39 Aircra fighters were noticeable due to their high dive speed, and the Grumman F4F Wildcat naval fighter had remarkable maneuverability, their general characteristics did not allow them to compete with the Zero. When the Lightning first entered the battle against the Zero, it seemed to our pilots that it did not stand out except for significant speed at high altitude and a very high dive speed.

          The strange-looking Lightning made its debut in the battle of the Solomon Islands in the fall of 1942. Very quickly, the number of these aircraft grew, even exceeding the number [232] of our Zeros. To the great delight of our pilots, the Lightings first tried to fight them in a classic maneuverable battle. This allowed the Japanese to bring down a fairly large number of Lightnings.

          As subsequent combat experience showed, the Americans did not immediately learn to take advantage of the large and heavy Lightning. The plane was simply tactically misused at first.

          However, the painful lesson in the form of numerous burning Lightnings was not in vain. The Americans soon adopted a new tactic that exploited the excellent characteristics of this aircraft at high altitude. At the same time, enemy pilots discovered the Zero’s poor performance at these altitudes and its inability to dive at high speed. Now the enemy has begun to take advantage of its terrifying effectiveness.

          Zero fighters no longer got the opportunity to grapple with the Lightnings, except under very favorable circumstances. However, they fell out very rarely. The Lightnings patrolled at the highest altitude, where the Zeros could not climb. Their high speed allowed the Americans to choose the most favorable position. After that, heavy fighters dived onto the unfortunate Zero and destroyed them.

          The distinctive sound of Lightning motors quickly became familiar to all Japanese in the South Pacific. This sound caused them a toothache. Our ground personnel, especially the technicians serving the Zero, shook their fists in impotent anger when the Lightnings with characteristic high roar fearlessly passed over the airfields of Buyna, Rabaul and other bases.

          Pilots also often cursed the high-speed Lightnings, which flaunted their advantage. American pilots were in an extremely advantageous position. They could fight where they wanted, and on the conditions they chose. Under such circumstances [233] Lightning has become one of the deadliest enemy aircraft.

          If the Lightings challenged our fighters, the Zeros were forced to wait until they attack in the most favorable conditions for themselves. The Japanese managed to achieve victory only if enemy fighters inadvertently got involved in a landfill. Since Lightning could choose the time and place of the battle, such opportunities were extremely rare,

          So the duel between Lightning and Zero showed the fundamental difference between air combat and land or sea combat. The only way to conduct aerial combat at the moment you needed was to have an aircraft superior to enemy aircraft. And in order to guarantee success in air battles, as many planes as possible had to be thrown into action.

          Since the Japanese naval aviation had been preparing for a long time and persistently in order to achieve quantitative and qualitative superiority before the start of the war, in the first clashes, these two conditions were met. However, the enemy quickly achieved numerical superiority, and a year after the start of the war, the qualitative superiority of our aviation also melted away.

          If our successful dash across the Pacific was overshadowed by only a small incident on Wake Island, now our naval aviation began to experience more and more difficulties in the conduct of air war. The enemy began to gradually gain the upper hand.

          The first single-seat American fighter to seriously challenge the Zero was the Chance Vote F4U Corsair. At first, our intelligence reported that it was an aircraft carrier fighter that failed to pass the tests due to poor landing characteristics. And the first serious American counteroffensive, which began on Guadalcanal, used the new fighter precisely because of the presence of land airfields. [234]

          Very quickly, the magnificent qualities of the Corsair became apparent. The enemy significantly increased their numbers during the campaign in the Solomon Islands. The sharpest increase was recorded in February 1943, when we evacuated Guadalcanal.

          The Corsair had a higher level flight speed and an incredible dive speed. He became the most terrible danger for our fighters. While the number of "Corsairs" i participating in air battles was small, the "Zeros" still managed somehow. But there were more and more of them. Finally, the Corsairs outnumbered the Zeros, which were now under threat of extermination. The command of our fighter units was faced with a colossal increase in losses caused by these swift aircraft. The Corsair was the first enemy fighter to surpass the Zero in every way.

          Doesn't it suggest any thoughts?
          1. Viktor Sergeev
            Viktor Sergeev April 18 2021 20: 05
            +1
            And YOU are not a little beguiled by the war at sea and the Second World War? As one of the middle-level German military commanders said about the German aces: While you increase the accounts we are being trampled into the ground. Zero was gentle, destroyed by one bullet, this is not an airplane, but a complete and dull G that did not fit the war in which he participated g, absolutely not suitable for the war at sea.
            On the fields of the Second World War, everything was different and the winner was the one who provided the bombers and attack aircraft with protection, and for this, speed did not matter at all.
            Example: Airacobra. The engine is weak, the speed is low, the climb rate is the same, the acceleration characteristics are poor, but the armament and maneuverability are not bad, well, the pilots got up to nothing, so they beat the Germans, and until the end of the war.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 18 2021 20: 52
              +1
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              Zero was gentle, destroyed by one bullet, this is not an airplane, but a complete and dull G that did not fit the war in which he participated g, absolutely not suitable for the war at sea.

              Unexpected things about the best aircraft of its niche - the beginning of the war.
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              As one of the middle-level German military commanders said about the German aces: While you increase the accounts, we are being trampled into the ground

              The word "as" is written with one "s". As for your military man, he could have called Goering, he might have explained to him about some of the problems with the air defense of the Reich. The Eastern Front received aviation on a leftover basis.
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              On the fields of the Second World War, everything was different and the winner was the one who provided the bombers and attack aircraft with protection, and for this, speed did not matter at all.

              On the fields of the Second World War it was exactly the same. With the exception that the Americans provided a qualitative and quantitative superiority, and the Germans - only a qualitative one. At the beginning of the war, they tried poorly, and in 43 they faced the many times superior industrial power of the Allies.
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              Example: Airacobra. The engine is weak, the speed is low, the climb rate is the same, the acceleration characteristics are poor,

              How did you walk through the fighters of Pokryshkin, Gulaev and Rechkalov.

              In reality, the Cobra differed from other Soviet aircraft in that a) it was metal, and, accordingly, knew how to dive. b) was relatively high-altitude (no, the MiG-3 was not high-altitude). c) was provided with good communication. These three qualities made the mediocre aircraft the best Soviet fighter of the war. Not that it hit the Germans directly, but it gave a relatively good chance.
              1. mister-red
                mister-red April 18 2021 23: 26
                +1
                Unexpected things about the best aircraft of its niche - the beginning of the war.

                Do you know that the high performance of the Zero was a consequence of the complete lack of aircraft protection? Calling such an aircraft the best is somehow strange. And Yakovlev is cheated for the Yak-3, which supposedly made it too easy.

                In reality, the Cobra differed from other Soviet aircraft in that a) it was metal, and, accordingly, knew how to dive. b) was relatively high-altitude (no, the MiG-3 was not high-altitude). c) was provided with good communication. These three qualities made the mediocre aircraft the best Soviet fighter of the war. Not that it hit the Germans directly, but it gave a relatively good chance.

                a) yes
                b) the ceiling of the MiG-3 is larger than the Aircobra.
                c) yes
                But the most important thing was missed - a 37mm cannon and 1x12,7 + 4x7,62 machine guns. Perhaps this was the most important thing.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 20 2021 07: 03
                  +2
                  Quote: mister-red
                  Do you know that the high performance of the Zero was a consequence of the complete lack of aircraft protection?

                  On the contrary, the lack of protection was a consequence of the obstinacy in other characteristics, primarily range.
                  Quote: mister-red
                  Calling such an aircraft the best is somehow strange.

                  Difficult question. Zero is better for an ace, F4F for an average pilot. In the end, the middle pilots win the war, so yes, gruman is better. Better yet, take a bigger motor, since it is there.
                  Quote: mister-red
                  And Yakovlev is cheated for the Yak-3, which supposedly made it too easy.

                  Yes, the Yak-3 is exactly the same approach, only in addition to the steel-wood glider.
                  Quote: mister-red
                  the ceiling of the MiG-3 is larger than the Aircobra.

                  We will not now discuss the peculiar characteristics of the MiG-3, we will only point out that when the Cobra went to the troops, the MiG-3 was no longer there.
                  Quote: mister-red
                  But the most important thing was missed - a 37mm cannon and 1x12,7 + 4x7,62 machine guns.

                  This gun was not suitable for the Americans. But for the Eastern Front, yes, it suited well, here extremely small distances of fire were adopted from both sides.
              2. Viktor Sergeev
                Viktor Sergeev April 19 2021 20: 40
                0
                If you are a kamikaze Zero for you. One bullet and you are in heaven. Read about the Cobra today in the Armament section. By the way, the Airacobra dived very badly, a weak engine, a lot of weight, a design that could not withstand overloads, poor centering, a rather unsuccessful gun. If our people did not work on this and did not turn it into something flying, then it would never have found those who want to fly. By the way, Pokryshkin, in order to compensate for the Cobra's shortcomings in poor acceleration characteristics, even invented a "pendulum", drove the Aircobra almost at afterburner, the engine died after 50 hours (at a rate of 250), the flight time decreased.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 20 2021 06: 45
                  +1
                  Quote: Victor Sergeev
                  One bullet and you are in heaven.

                  Yes, there were some downsides. No, an airplane is bad for a kamikaze, a pilot with a short training does not realize his strengths.
                  Quote: Victor Sergeev
                  By the way, the Airacobra dived very badly, a weak engine, a lot of weight, a design that could not withstand overloads, poor centering, a rather unsuccessful gun.

                  A good description of any Soviet fighter of those years, but the name is confused. The difference between the Cobra and any other Soviet aircraft is that the skin was torn off the wing of another aircraft by 700 km / h, while the Cobra did not.
                  Quote: Victor Sergeev
                  it would never have found those willing to fly.

                  Found, but in the 43rd year it was already considered obsolete.
                  Quote: Victor Sergeev
                  the engine died after 50 hours (at the rate of 250), the flight time decreased.

                  50 hours is the maximum that could be expected from the ASh-82. So nobody complained. As for the afterburners, the topic is cloudy - Soviet fuel / oils were not allowed to use even the factory maximum settings (military emergency mode).
                  1. Viktor Sergeev
                    Viktor Sergeev April 20 2021 19: 42
                    0
                    Yes, Zero did not have any strengths after 1942. Once the Germans figured out what they were dealing with, they found an antidote and stabbed Zero like nuts.
                    You say Cobra did not tear off the skin? Yes, his tail was torn off or at least deformed, and he could not accelerate to high speed. By the way, only Yak3, La5 \ 7, Yak9 dived normally and the skin did not flake off, except in cases of marriage.
                    You are right about the engine, I know that, but the advantage of the Cobra was just a great resource of 250 hours, to drive the plane through half the world so that the engine would die after several dozen sorties is somehow not entirely reasonable. Plus, the Cobra engine was very fond of excellent oil and fuel, which we practically did not have.
                    1. Alf
                      Alf April 20 2021 20: 48
                      +1
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      Once the Germans figured out what they were dealing with, they found an antidote and stabbed Zero like nuts.

                      Germans against Zero ????
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      Cobra's engine was very fond of excellent oil and fuel, which we practically did not have.

                      Sukhov. The squadron is fighting. The author got lost and sat down on the airfield near the LA-7, said to those who ran up, the gasoline ran out. They say to him, will OUR suit? So the units, armed with their aircraft, were supplied with their own gasoline and oils.
                      1. Viktor Sergeev
                        Viktor Sergeev April 21 2021 08: 05
                        0
                        Sorry, mixed up, Americans.
                      2. Viktor Sergeev
                        Viktor Sergeev April 21 2021 08: 06
                        0
                        When it comes to fuel, don't confuse love and use. Cobra flew on ours, but the power from this dropped, and she was already none.
                    2. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 21 2021 00: 53
                      +1
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      Once the Germans figured out what they were dealing with, they found an antidote and stabbed Zero like nuts.

                      We made planes that flew higher and faster. I copied and pasted two pages of Horikoshi / Okumiya to whom?
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      Yes, his tail was torn off or at least deformed

                      "Torn off or at least deformed." There is some difference, no?
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      and he could not accelerate to high speed

                      840, EMNIP, her dive speed. The Americans are traditionally good at this.
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      La5 \ 7, Yak9 normally dived for themselves and the plating did not flake off, except in cases of marriage.

                      Also the Yak-9.
                      Former pilot of the 41st GIAP, reserve colonel D. A. Alekseev, who fought on La-5 and La-7 fighters, recalls: “German fighter planes were strong. High-speed, maneuverable, durable, with very strong weapons (especially "Fokker"). On a dive, they caught up with La-5, and they dived away from us. A coup and a dive, only we saw them. By and large, in a dive, neither the Messer, nor the Fokker, even the La-7 could catch up. "

                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      About the engine, you are right, I know that, but the advantage of the Cobra was just a great resource of 250 hours, to drive the plane through half the world so that the engine would die after several dozen sorties, it’s somehow not entirely reasonable

                      Strange entry. The Cobra, which flew half the world, had a resource no less than the new La-5FN.
                      Quote: Victor Sergeev
                      Plus, the Cobra engine was very fond of excellent oil and fuel, which we practically did not have.

                      The Americans supplied the load, there's nothing you can do about it. The P-40s and the Hurricanes went straight from the 41st, somehow got overboard by the middle of the war more or less.
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA April 19 2021 18: 29
              0
              Quote: Victor Sergeev
              On the fields of the Second World War, everything was different and the winner was the one who provided the bombers and attack aircraft with protection, and for this, speed did not matter at all.

              What, speed didn't matter to the air clearing team either? wink
              Or is the only way to protect the strikers is exclusively direct escort, linking the fighters hand and foot?
              1. Viktor Sergeev
                Viktor Sergeev April 19 2021 20: 44
                0
                Yes, speed is not needed for the clearing group, since you do not work in the style of a hunter: you swooped down, dive, strike and run, but you tie the enemy in battle, that is, you pull into a carousel, drive away. Not only can you not run away, but also catch up.
                Ideally, the sweep first flies, after 15 minutes the rest, and for those who purge, you need to synchronize the flight so as not to get away from the bombers.
                Here the Germans needed speed, especially in the west, and in the east, in order to quickly escape on a dive. So they lost the war.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ April 18 2021 11: 51
    0
    I-180 was built in series,

    From this place in more detail. And how many of them were released in the series?
    1. dgonni
      dgonni April 18 2021 13: 21
      +1
      Maslov wrote the first episode in 12-15. After which the plant safely buried this pepelats
  • pyagomail.ru
    pyagomail.ru April 18 2021 11: 59
    +5
    I have great respect for the king of fighters, as well as for other Soviet aircraft designers. The article is interesting, but! There is such an anecdote: "I played in the Field of Miracles, opened all the letters, but did not guess the word." The author correctly pointed out the reasons: 1. Lack of engine performance, 2. Lack of a sufficient amount of aluminum alloys (all of our wartime fighters were made of wood), 3. Lack of a high-tech production base (especially during the war and evacuation) for in-line production of all-metal fighters - wooden aircraft still easier to do. But the author draws the wrong conclusion, reducing everything to intrigue and undercover games. It is ugly to oppose Polikarpov to Yakovlev, Lavochkin, Mikoyan (they say, Polikarpov is good, and these are intriguers).
    1. KERMET
      KERMET April 18 2021 12: 54
      0
      Everything seems to be correct, but the main message is that by 43 it is quite realistic (there was already a quantitative advantage - it could have been a qualitative one) was to put the I-185 in a series. (Not earlier!)
      As for materials - the I-185 was a mixed aircraft (like the Yak, MiG and even LaGG!) The main stress with aluminum was 41-42 years. In the end, none of the NKAP demanded to revise the wing design (perhaps in a large series such a requirement would arise) as, for example, was demanded in the case of the Su-2, Il-2, DB-3F
      1. pyagomail.ru
        pyagomail.ru April 18 2021 13: 51
        +1
        [quote = KERMET] gThe ode to the 43rd was quite realistic (there was already a quantitative advantage - it would have been possible to switch to a qualitative one) was to put the I-185 in a series. (Not earlier!)[/ Quote]
        So, but - "the road is a spoon for dinner", and by 1943 there were La-5 and Yaks that were completely satisfying the requirements, cured of childhood diseases, so there was no point in producing a new plane.
        1. KERMET
          KERMET April 18 2021 14: 09
          0
          But there were also opposite examples - the same Tu-2 was put into series after an enthusiastic report on military trials, although there was a completely satisfying Pe-2 and you can not find much sense here either.
          By the way, Polikarpov played an important role in the rescue of the Tu-2 (despite all the previous tricks with Tupolev)
          1. pyagomail.ru
            pyagomail.ru April 19 2021 09: 55
            0
            Quote: KERMET
            the same Tu-2 was put into series after an enthusiastic report on military trials,

            The Tu-2 was somehow unclear: it seemed to have been created almost simultaneously with the Pe-2, surpassing it in all respects. An experimental batch was made and sent to the front. But there was no positive or negative feedback from the command for a long time and the plane was discontinued. In the end, a positive review of the plane was sent, but "the train left." Production was restored only towards the end of the war. But he was recognized as the best front-line bomber!
            1. Alf
              Alf April 19 2021 19: 32
              0
              Quote: pyagomail.ru
              An experimental batch was made and sent to the front. But there was no positive or negative feedback from the command for a long time and the plane was discontinued.

              The plane turned out to be excellent, but how many people in this regiment "liked" the reliability of the M-82 ... Constant overheating and failures.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ April 18 2021 13: 43
      +3
      On a similar occasion, there was such a case. Once Napoleon arrived at the fortress, but there was no salute. He called the commandant and ordered to explain the situation. He began: "There were 15 reasons for the lack of fireworks. First, there was no gunpowder," - "enough," Napoleon said.
  • dgonni
    dgonni April 18 2021 12: 43
    +8
    A good rehash of well-known literature. For the uninformed, it is useful and possibly will make you familiarize yourself with the undeservedly forgotten designer and his brainchildren!
    What prevented the plane from getting to the test on time?
    Small victorious war with the Finns and the annexation of Bessarabia. In fact, the war with the Finns cut off Shvetsov from the high-tech company Wright Cyclone. In fact, there were samples, but the Americans did not sell the technologies and features. For sanctions. Therefore, the M-64 did not take off, and with the M-63 they fumbled for a year longer, until they introduced hyperbolic grinding of the crankshaft. Therefore, the M-82 in digestible form actually appeared only in 1942 and not in 1940 as planned. Therefore, the M-71 did not become large-scale, but was produced in small batches. For by the time it was brought to a workable form, in a large series there were already other planes with stars. And no one wanted to bother with a large series of aircraft with the M-71. And this is not only the 185th. This is the Su-6 dry.
    Although, in fact, the M-82, even in the 82FN version, had wild problems and a low resource. Every second engine was usually removed from the delivery due to smoke! Of the planned 100 hours, as a rule, they did not work more than 45-60. Although for a fighter whose life is not of duty, it was not critical until the end of the war. But already at the end of 44, Shvetsov was summoned to the rug on this issue. In fact, only since May 1945, the 5th series of engines went on, which immediately crossed the line of 150 hours.
    And the very process of solving the problem turned out to be interesting. As Shvetsov himself wrote in an exculpatory memorandum that they began to consider the issue of smoking and increasing the durability of the CPG back in 1939. But hands did not reach. In fact, they saw some wrong cylinders on Amer engines that had a cone in the head area. But they had no idea why they did it. And already in the process of mass production, having familiarized with the American experience, we learned about the penetration of the heat cone, and developed our own way of solving this problem. Namely, by squeezing the upper part of the sleeve with a twisted hot head. Although they tried to release the 4th series using Amer technologies, making hyperbolic conical boring. Unfortunately, in pilot production it worked, in the series, on the contrary, it only worsened the situation.
    Therefore, Shvetsov did not really want to bother with the M-71 either. For by 1943 he presented a number of problems.
    P.S. Yakovlev's aircraft were originally supposed to have an M-106 engine (1350 hp). But again, the level of our engineers did not allow to bring it to mind. Not so much smog it as a supercharger was lying down. Although the developments on it later formed the basis for 105PF2. Providing him with real reliability.
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 April 18 2021 13: 10
    +5
    the article is good BUT two quotes spoil it radically:
    Yes, we did without much in that terrible war: without the elementary readiness of the top leadership of the army and the country for defense, without repressed military leaders
    a very controversial statement as about the readiness of the leadership (for example, Kovpak and Stalin were quite ready for themselves)
    To the great disciple of the great Igor Sikorsky.
    Well, don't be so about Sikorsky in Russia, his merits are controversial, but for the USSR, and in general, no one, less enthusiasm.
    Vileness and undercover struggle (this is not about Yakovlev's justification, if there was Tupolev instead of him, well, there would be another tragic saga) for orders and a place under the Sun were enough in Germany and the United States, everywhere, their "stories" of light-faced and others.
    1. Elturisto
      Elturisto April 18 2021 14: 33
      +1
      What were the methods of Yakovlev's undercover struggle in accordance with the Yak-1 customer requirements and the capabilities of the aviation industry? -1 and Yak-3 in 185 to staff special regiments of experienced pilots. Vile slander characterizes a person as a bastard and a scoundrel ...
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion April 18 2021 13: 38
    +1
    Another story about a misunderstood genius who somehow surpassed just everyone. The dull ones were visible.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 14: 29
    0
    Quote: Aviator_
    I-180 was built in series,

    From this place in more detail. And how many of them were released in the series?

    It was brought to a series, and was supposed to be built in a series, but the management of the plant, either bound by large obligations on the I-16 production shaft, or by pushing their protégé Pashinin with the I-21, the I-180 slowed down. After all, when they were shoved, LaGG-1 instantly appeared in the series. Although it is clear that the weight in the ministry of Gobunov was higher than Yangel, the deputy of Polikarpov.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 15: 27
    +1
    The author writes - While Polikarpov was working for the good of the Motherland in Germany, his design bureau was defeated. Most of the designers were transferred in various ways to the newly created structure of the OKO (experimental design department).

    It is worth mentioning those who did this: plant director P. A. Voronin, chief engineer P. V. Dementyev and designer Artem Mikoyan, behind whom loomed the People's Commissar for Foreign Trade and Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars Anastas Mikoyan.

    Formally, this was done, but it was done because they wanted to give the plant for Yakovlev's fighter, and here was Polikarpov's project - I-200. The plant's management pulled it out. Important in this story is the role of M.I. Gurevich, who, in fact, betrayed Polikarpov.

    The author writes - Probably because the head of the People's Commissariat for Foreign Trade Mikoyan could not buy engines in other countries.
    Most likely, Stalin did not let him buy engines, otherwise the MiG-3 (9) would have been implemented under PW such a project.

    The author writes - What is Yakovlev doing? He simply takes from Polikarpov all the developments on the "stars", especially on the propeller group, and gives it to Lavochkin and Mikoyan. Well, he does not forget himself.

    True, there is a nuance - a comparison of the propeller groups of all aircraft under the ASh-82 shows more or less identity only for the I-185 and MiG-3 (MiG-9).

    The author writes - Why, then, our main air brawler Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin did not want to change to the Yak? And during the whole war he was not kicked out of the cockpit of the Airacobra?
    Well, when he was "asked" to change to a Soviet plane, he chose between Yak and Lavochkin. And he chose Chief Designers not for the qualities of the aircraft, but in relation to himself. Lavochkin was more, say, more humane.
    The author writes -
    Moreover, the Perm plant, at the direction of the NKAP, was ordered to be redesigned for the production of water engines. Which would knock the plant out of action for a year or so.

    Again, there is a nuance - in conditions when the advantage was seen behind the water-cooled engines (and these are not only Klimov's motors, but also Mikulin's motors), relying on the plant in Rybinsk became extremely risky - close to the front - could be captured and bombed. And this is definitely a disaster.
    The author writes -
    By the way, very interesting statistics. If you take the "Top-30" Soviet aces, you get a very interesting picture. If you group the pilots by aircraft, you get the following picture:

    LaGG-3, La-5, La-7 - 10 people.
    R-39 "Airacobra" - 7 people.
    Yak of all models - 7 people.
    And 6 more people flew a large number of models, so you can't tell right away on which plane they made the most victories and sorties.


    A year or more ago, a similar statistic was made by me for an article on the list of pilots who had 2 Golden Hero Stars. It is clear that all such calculations are very arbitrary, but they surprised me myself, it turned out that the benefits of 1 released (purchased) aircraft are more for Yakovlev's planes, then for R-39, and only after that for Lavochkin's planes and other Lend-Lease planes. Once again, all such calculations are from the evil one.

    What I learned from this kind of reasoning. The country was not lucky that the line of Polikarpov's aircraft was cut short. The reasons are mainly in the subjectivity of specific individuals, which at that time prevailed in the leadership of the industry and the country. Switching to another model of an aircraft during the war is a real risk, for which any responsible person really risked his head.

    Therefore, mainly equipment was produced that could be modified. They decided to put into production new aircraft only with control levers and personal interest. Yakovlev is one of them. But we must give him his due, he did it masterfully.

    It must be admitted with regret that without Chkalov's penetrating power, Polikarpov was unable to realize his wonderful projects in the series. From the realm of fantasy - if 82 plants were given to Polikarpov, then about 2 thousand. I-185 (Po-3?) Could have time to fight. (((
    1. lelik613
      lelik613 April 18 2021 17: 57
      0
      Stalin did not let him buy engines ...
      Who would sell them to him?
  • CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz April 18 2021 16: 13
    -1
    Yakovlev ne khilo na statiu 58 tyanet.
  • doktorkurgan
    doktorkurgan April 18 2021 17: 14
    -1
    As they say, it's great again ... The topic of the I-185 VS La-5 has already been dismantled several times, as well as the supposedly fantastically successful use of experienced I-185s at the front (in fact, they were not at the front, an experimental military operation was carried out), as well as the role of the ominous Deputy People's Commissar Yakovlev, who crushed everyone in the aviation industry during the Great Patriotic War, too.
    Regarding this point:
    While Polikarpov was working for the good of the Motherland in Germany, his design bureau was defeated. Most of the designers were transferred in various ways to the newly created structure of the OKO (experimental design department).

    It is worth mentioning those who did this: plant director P. A. Voronin, chief engineer P. V. Dementyev and designer Artem Mikoyan, behind whom loomed the People's Commissar for Foreign Trade and Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars Anastas Mikoyan.

    Today they make an innocent lamb out of Artyom Mikoyan, they say, he didn't want to, he was forced. But the project of the I-200 fighter, the project of which Polikarpov submitted for approval to the People's Commissariat of the Aviation Industry, was also given to him. In general, it is not known how Mikoyan was forced to become the head of a new design bureau formed for him and accept someone else's project as a gift, but he did not resist for long, as you know.


    Kakbe at that time Polikarpov scored a bunch of tuevu those who were safely piled up at the stage of prototypes (according to the draft thematic plan of the NKAP for 1939-1940, Polikarpov had the following work topics: I180, two copies (one with a pressurized cabin), I-190, three copies (1 with a pressurized cabin), VIT-1 2 M-103 TK, VIT-2 2 M-105, DR-2 (long-range reconnaissance aircraft based on VIT-1), short-range attack bomber on the topic "Ivanov", I- 17 M-100 P, I-17 M-103 P TK (two options), continued work on various options I-16 and I-153.).
    Specifically for the I-200 - the preliminary design and the flying model are separated by a considerable distance, so the merit of the Mikoyan-Gurevich tandem here, perhaps, will be more than Polikarpov's.
  • Igor Tikhomirov
    Igor Tikhomirov April 18 2021 18: 17
    -3
    I wonder if it was possible to make the I-185 from plywood boards. steel tubes and rags like yaki? Or from boards and plywood like LAGG and LA? There was a terrible shortage of aluminum in 1941-43 in the camp. Well, maybe at the end of 44g, they would start to build it serially in commercial quantities. When they began to supply aluminum from America. And before that, I would have had to fight like in the First World War on a few foreign cars.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 18: 42
    +3
    Quote: Igor Tikhomirov
    I wonder if it was possible to make the I-185 from plywood boards. steel tubes and rags like yaki? Or from boards and plywood like LAGG and LA?

    I-180.The fuselage is semi-monocoque with a skin of 0,2–2,5 mm thick, made of birch veneer. The casing was glued and attached to the set with casein glue, nails and screws. The power set of the fuselage and center section of 11 solid and three sectional frames, four spars and stringers. Reinforcing frames made of bakelite plywood in the attachment points of the units. The spars are pine beams of variable cross-section. The center section of the aircraft and the fuselage are a single part on which the veneer wing fairings, characteristic of the I-16, are glued. Open cockpit with small drop sides for easy exit.
    And-185 The fuselage is a wooden semi-monocoque, consisting of two symmetrical elements glued from birch veneer on a blank. The design of the fuselage and keel made up a single unit. The motor frame is welded from steel pipes. Additional rigidity of the fuselage was created by four spars, frames and stringers. The cladding panels behind the engine compartment are duralumin in the upper part and steel on the sides behind the exhaust pipes.
    MiG-3 The wing is trapezoidal, with rounded ends, solid wood. The frame includes one spar, two reinforced stringers and 15 ribs each. Box spar made of delta wood and pine plywood. Wing sheathing - five-layer bakelite plywood, attached to the frame with glue, screws and nails, pasted over with plain cloth, putty and painted.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 18: 59
    -2
    Quote: lelik613
    Stalin did not let him buy engines ...
    Who would sell them to him?

    The Americans could sell, machines and materials were included in the supply under the Lend-Lease.
    1. lelik613
      lelik613 April 18 2021 19: 53
      +1
      Until 22.06 they did not sell because of the moral embargo for the Finns, and after that it did not make sense because it was too late and they did not sell what they needed because they themselves had to. Otherwise, they would be the first to remotorize Pe-8 and Er-2.
    2. Alf
      Alf April 18 2021 21: 51
      +2
      Quote: Pavel57
      Quote: lelik613
      Stalin did not let him buy engines ...
      Who would sell them to him?

      The Americans could sell, machines and materials were included in the supply under the Lend-Lease.

      Remind me about the disruption of convoys in the spring and summer of 42? How can you count on aircraft, the availability of which in combat units depends on supplies from afar?
      Further, on the Mustang there was a magnificent Merlin, and on the P-39, P-40 and P-38 Allison, who was inferior to Merlin in power and was inferior to strong. Why didn't they put the Merlins on them? And the answer on the surface lies - there were not enough Packards, if they could not put everything on everything for their Air Force in such an industrialized power, then what kind of purchases can we talk about at all?
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 22: 26
        +2
        Quote: Alf
        and on the P-39, P-40 and P-38 Allison, who was inferior to Merlin in power and was inferior strongly. Why didn't they put the Merlins on them?

        Because a new engine is a new aircraft, as it happened with the remotorization of Mutsang. The cars you named were created in 37-38, when Packard was not yet there. Mustang, yes, it could have been originally made for Packard, but, unfortunately, it did not occur to either the British or North American. When it was time for the Packards, the Army Air Force already had other priorities besides the remotorization of old machines.
        Quote: Alf
        then what kind of purchases can we talk about at all?

        There was no particular shortage, but making a Cobra with a Packard is pointless. Merlin was above all a higher altitude. The USSR did not particularly appreciate it, and the Americans themselves did not need this plane.
        1. Alf
          Alf April 18 2021 22: 34
          +1
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          but making a Cobra with a packard is pointless. Merlin was above all a higher altitude.

          P-63 Kingcobra was with Allison, but its design height was 7620 meters.
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          The USSR did not really appreciate it,

          And that's why he took 2,5 thousand Kingcobras?
          Mustang, yes, it could have been originally made for Packard, but, unfortunately, it did not occur to either the British or North American.

          Actually, Mustang was originally with Allison, but in 42 it was changed to Merlin and there were no questions or problems.
          The Air Force said-It is necessary, North answered-Yes!
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine April 18 2021 22: 46
            0
            Quote: Alf
            And that's why he took 2,5 thousand Kingcobras?

            He took what was. The benefit is free.
            Quote: Alf
            P-63 Kingcobra was with Allison, but its design height was 7620 meters.

            Look for elevation charts for Alison and Late Merlins.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 19: 39
    +1
    Quote: Aviator_
    I-180 was built in series,

    From this place in more detail. And how many of them were released in the series?

    10 pieces.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 19: 41
    +2
    Quote: pyagomail.ru
    It is ugly to oppose Polikarpov to Yakovlev, Lavochkin, Mikoyan (they say, Polikarpov is good, and these are intriguers).

    Polikarpov was not noticed in intrigues. The rest were, some more, some less.
  • Monar
    Monar April 18 2021 19: 47
    0
    We just read.
    Leading engineer of the Air Force Research Institute Lazarev wrote the following:
    “1) The I-185 M-71 aircraft in terms of its flight characteristics is higher than all existing domestic serial and foreign aircraft.

    The lead engineer's opinion is important. But literally below -
    “After flying the I-185 M-71 aircraft, we report our considerations: speed, maneuverability, armament, ease of takeoff and landing, low mileage and takeoff run, equal to I-16 type 24, survivability in battle, similar to I-16, comparative ease and pleasantness in piloting technique, the possibility of repair in the field, the ease of retraining pilots, especially with the I-16, give the right to recommend putting this aircraft into serial production. "

    A research institute engineer speaks of a significant advantage. The combat pilot is just about equality.
    1. KERMET
      KERMET April 19 2021 01: 22
      0
      Equality with I-16 only in low mileage and takeoff and survivability in battle. Both the I-16 were at their best - so this is a praise
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 19: 48
    0
    Quote: ElTuristo
    Yakovlev, let it be known to you, suggested that Stalin launch the I-185 and Yak-3 in a limited series in 1943 to staff special regiments of experienced pilots. Vile slander characterizes a person as a scoundrel and a scoundrel ...

    Is there a link to the original source?
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 19: 57
    0
    Quote: lelik613
    Until 22.06 they did not sell because of the moral embargo for the Finns, and after that it did not make sense because it was too late and they did not sell what they needed because they themselves had to. Otherwise, they would be the first to remotorize Pe-8 and Er-2.

    The question requires study. But since Mikoyan looked through such a MiG-9 project with PW, then the supply of engines was considered.
    1. lelik613
      lelik613 April 18 2021 20: 35
      0
      Fate! The adoption of 3 machines at once meant that none of them fully met the requirements. Doubtful prospects with engines, lack of duralumin made us keep a safety net.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse April 18 2021 19: 58
    -1
    I didn't like the article. Solid "conspiracy theory" and taste. We usually expect much more adequate material from this author. Immediately, it seems that there are some personal scores or addictions.

    The author missed the problems of Polikarpov and his design bureau with the I-180, together with the death of Chkalov back in 1938. Although this is what caused both problems with the country's leadership, and questions about the adequacy of the chosen direction.

    Well, assaults on Yakovlev have generally become a commonplace of modern authors. Yakovlev, in the role of deputy people's commissar, was entrusted with a design assessment of all models proposed for production. The amount of all kinds of nonsense offered for development and production at that time was simply off scale. It is not surprising that Yakovlev in the shortest possible time amassed a sea of ​​ill-wishers.

    Although the all-metal I-185 was of some interest, at that time it was the machine with the highest bomb load among fighters, 500 kg at two suspension points. I believe that Polikarpov should have focused on this feature of a rather expensive machine and presented it as a fighter-bomber, as a competitor to the twin-engined Pe-2. If you increase the number of suspension nodes, this option looks really very interesting. But to advertise the I-185 as an analogue of the Yak-9 or La-5 is clearly not worth it. The Polikarpov car is sharply more expensive and this can only be justified by additional combat capabilities, such as the role of a fighter-bomber.
    1. agond
      agond April 18 2021 20: 38
      0
      It's just that Polikarpov was not as punchy and assertive as Yakovlev.
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse April 18 2021 21: 09
        0
        Polikarpov in the late 30s no longer needed to punch something. After the I-16, he was considered a master and trendsetter in fighters.
    2. KERMET
      KERMET April 19 2021 01: 11
      +2
      Quote: Saxahorse
      If you increase the number of suspension nodes, this option looks really very interesting.

      The I-185 has 4 suspension assemblies, Here are the loading options, admire:
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse April 19 2021 23: 21
        0
        Quote: KERMET
        The I-185 has 4 suspension units,

        Nice picture, thanks! It clearly shows that the most effective 50 kg bombs it could carry much more. There are four additional suspension units on the fuselage, and a couple more on the wing.
        1. KERMET
          KERMET April 20 2021 13: 28
          +1
          Well, everything is not so simple here, under the fuselage - there we have an oil cooler and the power circuit of the fuselage may not allow, under the wing - there are the landing gear and their doors on one side, on the other there are removable consoles. Here it would be easier to use cassette holders of the CD type, I came across a similar picture for the Su-2, there are very interesting "bunches" of bombs obtained using these holders
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 18 2021 20: 57
    0
    Quote: Saxahorse
    The Polikarpov car is sharply more expensive and this can only be justified by additional combat capabilities, such as the role of a fighter-bomber.

    Is there a cost estimate?
  • Igor Tikhomirov
    Igor Tikhomirov April 18 2021 21: 13
    +1
    Quote: Pavel57
    I-185 Fuselage is a wooden semi-monocoque, consisting of two symmetrical elements glued from birch veneer on a blank. The design of the fuselage and keel made up a single unit. The motor frame is welded from steel pipes. Additional rigidity of the fuselage was created by four spars, frames and stringers. The cladding panels behind the engine compartment are duralumin in the upper part and steel on the sides behind the exhaust pipes.

    And what about the wing? Yakovlev could not launch his I-30, tested in the middle, 41 years in the series. They made the Yak-1 (I26), because there was plenty to make it from. In 1943, the aircraft made a wing with aluminum. the frame turned out to be an LA-7. The same was done with the Yak, it turned out Yak-3.
    Some will be surprised that even Ishak (I-16) has a wing with a frame made of. alum. And the Yak-1 from the boards.