Military Review

Use of captured German 105 and 128 mm anti-aircraft guns

68
Use of captured German 105 and 128 mm anti-aircraft guns

In addition to the well-known 88-mm anti-aircraft guns, the air defense units of Nazi Germany had 105 and 128-mm anti-aircraft guns. The creation of such long-range and high-altitude artillery systems was associated with an increase in the speed and altitude of the bombers, as well as with the desire to increase the area of ​​destruction of fragmentation anti-aircraft projectiles.


During World War II, most of the German heavy anti-aircraft guns were 88-mm guns, the effectiveness of which no longer fully corresponded to modern requirements. At the beginning of 1944, the command of the 1st Air Defense Division of Berlin reported to the leadership:

"With a raid height of more than 8 thousand meters, the 8,8 cm Flak 36/37 anti-aircraft guns have exhausted their reach."

Under these conditions, 105-128-mm anti-aircraft guns, coupled with radars, played a very important role in the air defense system of the Third Reich. These long-range anti-aircraft guns, even at night, could conduct very accurate fire, opening it before enemy bombers were in the zone of destruction of more massive 88-mm guns.

The value of 105-128-mm anti-aircraft guns rose sharply in the second half of the war, when the British and Americans launched an "air offensive" on German cities, strategically important industrial facilities and transport hubs. British and especially American heavy bombers often carried out bombing from an altitude of 7-9 km. In this connection, the most effective in the fight against them were large-caliber anti-aircraft guns with high ballistic characteristics.

Although the German air defense systems were not able to fully protect the covered objects from air strikes, it should be recognized that the German anti-aircraft guns acted quite effectively. And the allies achieved their goals only due to multiple numerical superiority and often at the cost of high losses.

For example, in the course of 16 massive raids on Berlin, the British lost 492 bombers, which amounted to 5,5% of all aircraft participating in the raids. According to statistics, for one downed bomber there were two or three damaged, many of which were later written off due to the impossibility of recovery.

American heavy bombers carried out raids in the daytime and, accordingly, suffered more significant losses than the British. Particularly indicative was the raid of the "flying fortresses" B-17 in 1943 on the ball bearing plant, when the German air defense forces destroyed about half of the bombers participating in the raid.

The role of anti-aircraft artillery is also great in the fact that a very large percentage (more than the allies admit) of bombers dropped bombs anywhere, just to get out of the shelling or not to enter the anti-aircraft fire zone at all.

105-mm anti-aircraft guns 10,5 cm Flak 38 and 10,5 cm Flak 39


In 1933, the Reichswehr command announced a competition for the creation of a 105-mm universal anti-aircraft gun, which was also supposed to be used in navy... In 1935, Friedrich Krupp AG and Rheinmetall-Borsig AG presented two prototypes of their 105-mm anti-aircraft guns, which passed comparative tests in the same year. According to the test results, the 105-mm gun from Rheinmetall was recognized as the best. In the second half of 1937, a modified version of this gun was put into service under the name 10,5 cm Flak 38 (German 10,5 Flugabwehrkanone 38). By September 1, 1939, 64 guns had been produced.

Externally, the Flak 38 resembled the upscaled Flak 36. But there were many design differences between the two. The 105-mm anti-aircraft guns were guided by electro-hydraulic drives. The four-gun Flak 38 battery was equipped with a 24 kW DC generator, which was rotated by a gasoline engine. The generator supplied power to the electric motors mounted on the cannons. Each gun had four electric motors: vertical guidance, horizontal guidance, rammer and automatic fuse installer.

In the combat position, the gun weighed 10 240 kg, in the traveling position - 14 600 kg. For transportation, like the 88 mm Flak 18/36/37, a Sonderanhanger 201 conveyor with two single-axle rolling bogies was used.


10,5 cm Flak 38 in transport position

From the ground, the gun fired from a cruciform gun carriage, which made it possible to conduct a circular fire with elevation angles from −3 ° to + 85 °. A crew of 11 people transferred the gun from the marching position to the firing position in 15 minutes.


10,5 cm Flak 38 in firing position

In addition to the towed version, 105-mm anti-aircraft guns were installed on railway platforms and in stationary positions. Several dozen 105-mm anti-aircraft guns were deployed in the fortifications of the Atlantic Wall. Where are they, in addition to countering the enemy aviation, were supposed to fire on ships and carry out anti-amphibious defense.


105-mm anti-aircraft gun in a firing position

The 10,5 cm Flak 38 gun had good ballistic characteristics. A fragmentation projectile weighing 15,1 kg left a barrel with a length of 6 648 mm (63 clb) at a speed of 880 m / s. At the same time, the reach in height was 12 m. When a projectile containing 800 kg of TNT burst, about 1,53 lethal fragments were formed, the confident zone of destruction of air targets reached 700 m. An armor-piercing projectile weighing 15 kg had an initial velocity of 15,6 m / s and at a distance of 860 m, it penetrated 1500 mm armor along the normal. Rate of fire: 135-12 rounds / min.


In 1940, the troops began to receive 105-mm Flak 39 anti-aircraft guns.

This gun differed from the Flak 38 in the design of the barrel, carriage and the type of electric motors of the guidance system. The Flak 39 barrel was made integral, which made it possible to change not the entire barrel, but only its individual most worn parts. The Flak 39 barrel had a free tube, which consisted of three parts: a chamber, a middle and a muzzle. The chamber and middle parts were connected at the front end of the chamber, and the joint between them was overlapped by a sleeve. The middle and muzzle parts of the pipe were connected in the threaded part of the channel, and the joint between them did not overlap. The parts of the free pipe were assembled in a shell or collecting pipe and tightened with nuts. The advantage of the composite barrel was the possibility of replacing only one middle part, which is most susceptible to "swing".

The 10,5 cm Flak 39 anti-aircraft gun was equipped with an electric drive with industrial frequency AC motors, which made it possible to do without a special electric generator and connect to city power grids.


Anti-aircraft fire control radar Würzburg

To guide the firing of the Flak 39 anti-aircraft battery, the guidance system was used, worked out at 8,8 cm Flak 37. Its essence was that instead of the aiming scale, two double dials with multi-colored arrows appeared on the gun. After the target was taken to be accompanied by the Würzburg anti-aircraft fire control radar or the calculation of the Kommandogerät 40 optical rangefinder with an analog mechanical computer, using radar or optical anti-aircraft fire control devices, the following were determined: range to the target, flight altitude and angular coordinates - azimuth and elevation. On their basis, data for firing was generated, which were transmitted via cable to the guns.


At the same time, one of the colored arrows on the dials indicated a certain elevation angle and direction to the target. The gun crew combined the second arrows with the indicated values, using a special automated mechanical device entered data into the remote fuse of the anti-aircraft projectile and sent it to the bolt. The gun was automatically guided to a given point by an electric drive. And there was a shot.

In total, about 1945 FlaK 4/200 anti-aircraft guns were produced by February 38. Due to the significant mass and complex device, 39-mm anti-aircraft guns did not receive widespread use in anti-aircraft battalions tank and infantry divisions. And they were mainly used in the anti-aircraft units of the Luftwaffe.


In August 1944, the anti-aircraft units of the Luftwaffe were armed with 2 FlaK 018/38 anti-aircraft guns. Of this number, 39 are in a towed version, 1 are mounted on railway platforms, and 025 are in stationary positions.


Calculation of 10,5 cm Flak 39 in the air defense turret

Taking into account the fact that a 105-mm projectile, when bursting, formed a fragmentation field of a larger area than that released from an 88-mm FlaK 41, the average consumption of projectiles per shot down aircraft for FlaK 39 was 6 units, and for FlaK 000 - 41 units. At the same time, the firing range and reach of these guns were very close.

The FlaK 38/39 artillery unit was used as part of a twin 105 mm marine universal mount 10,5 cm SK C / 33. Moreover, in the installations of the early release, barrels similar to the FlaK 38 were used, and in the later ones - the FlaK 39.


Twin 105-mm universal artillery mount 10,5 cm SK C / 33

The installation weighed about 27 tons and could make 15-18 rounds / min. To compensate for the rocking of the ship, there was an electromechanical stabilizer.


The 105-mm SK C / 33 twin was installed on heavy cruisers such as Deutschland and Admiral Hipper, battle cruisers of the Scharnhorst class, and battleships of the Bismarck class. They were also supposed to be installed on the only German aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin". A number of 105mm twin guns were deployed in the vicinity of naval bases, and they also participated in repelling enemy raids.

128-mm anti-aircraft guns 12,8 cm Flak 40 and 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 42


The 12,8 cm Flak 40 was the heaviest anti-aircraft gun used by the Germans in World War II. Rheinmetall-Borsig AG received the terms of reference for the development of this system in 1936. But at the first stage, this topic was not among the priorities, and the intensity of work on the creation of a 128-mm anti-aircraft gun sharply accelerated after the first raids of British bombers.

Initially, it was assumed that 128-mm guns (by analogy with 88 and 105-mm anti-aircraft guns), in addition to the anti-aircraft units of the Luftwaffe, would be used in the anti-aircraft units of the Wehrmacht, and the 128-mm anti-aircraft gun was designed in a mobile version. To transport the gun, they tried to use two single-axle trolleys.

However, with the weight of the installation in the combat position of more than 12 tons, its transportation was only possible over very short distances. The load on the bogies was excessive and the gun could only be towed on paved roads. In this regard, the engineers suggested removing the barrel and transporting it on a separate trailer. But during the tests of the prototype, it turned out that such a disassembly turned out to be inappropriate - the installation still remained too heavy. As a result, a special four-axle conveyor was developed to transport the unassembled weapon.


Towed version of the 128 mm Flak 40 anti-aircraft gun

At the end of 1941, during the trial operation of the first batch of six 128-mm anti-aircraft guns, it turned out that with a mass in the transport position of more than 17 tons, this gun is completely unsuitable for use in the field. As a result, the order for towed anti-aircraft guns was canceled, and priority was given to guns deployed permanently.


128-mm anti-aircraft gun Flak 40 with the calculation

Anti-aircraft 128-mm cannons were installed on the concrete platforms of the air defense towers and special metal platforms. To increase the mobility of anti-aircraft batteries, Flak 40 guns were mounted on railway platforms.

The 128 mm Flak 40 anti-aircraft gun had impressive capabilities. With a barrel length of 7 mm, a fragmentation projectile weighing 835 kg accelerated to 26 m / s and could reach an altitude of more than 880 m. But due to the design features of anti-aircraft shells fuses, the ceiling did not exceed 14 m. up to + 000 °. Rate of fire - up to 12 rounds / min.


The mechanisms for aiming, supplying and sending ammunition, as well as installing the fuse, were driven by 115 V AC electric motors. Each anti-aircraft battery, consisting of four guns, was attached to a 60 kW gasoline power generator.

The fragmentation projectile contained 3,3 kg of TNT, when it was detonated, a fragmentation field with a radius of destruction of about 20 m was formed.In addition to the usual fragmentation projectiles for 128-mm anti-aircraft guns, a small batch of active-rocket projectiles with an increased firing range was fired. Attempts were also made to create radio fuses, which ensured a non-contact detonation of a projectile when the distance between it and the target was minimal, as a result of which the probability of damage increased sharply.

However, even with conventional fragmentation shells, the effectiveness of the Flak 40 anti-aircraft guns was higher than that of other German anti-aircraft guns. So, for one downed enemy bomber, an average of 3 000-mm shells were spent. The 128-mm Flak 88 anti-aircraft guns used an average of 36 rounds to obtain the same result.

The fairly high performance of 128-mm anti-aircraft guns was largely due to the fact that the most advanced German radar and optical systems were used to control them.


Radar FuMG 450 Freya

Preliminary detection of air targets was assigned to the Freya family of radars. Most often these were stations of the FuMG 450 type operating at a frequency of 125 MHz. Typically, such radars with a range of more than 100 km were located at a distance of 40-50 km from anti-aircraft batteries.

The data issued by the radar on the azimuth to the target and the target elevation angle were processed by the computing center. After that, the course and flight speed of enemy bombers were determined. The standard PUAZO of the Flak 40 battery in the daytime was the Kommandogerät 40 optical calculating device.

At night, aiming fire was directed by radars of the Würzburg family. These radars with a parabolic antenna, after acquiring a target for tracking, provided a fairly accurate measurement of the range, altitude and speed of the target.


Radar FuMG 65E Würzburg-Riese on a railway platform

The most advanced of the serially produced radar was the FuMG 65E Würzburg-Riese. It had an antenna with a diameter of 7,4 m and a transmitter with a pulse power of 160 kW, providing a range of more than 60 km.

Serial production of 128-mm anti-aircraft guns began in 1942. Considering the fact that the Flak 40 was quite complex and expensive to manufacture, these guns were produced less than the 105 mm Flak 38/39.


128-mm anti-aircraft guns were used to protect the most important administrative and industrial centers. In August 1944, the anti-aircraft artillery units of the Luftwaffe numbered only 449 Flak 40s, of which 242 were stationary installations, 201 were part of railway batteries and 6 were towed guns. The maximum number of 128-mm anti-aircraft guns was reached in January 1945, when there were 570 units in service.


The adoption of powerful 128-mm anti-aircraft guns significantly increased the potential of the German air defense system. At the same time, the German command, expecting an increase in the intensity of the Allied aviation raids, demanded the creation of even more long-range and powerful anti-aircraft guns.

From the second half of 1942, the development of a 128-mm anti-aircraft gun with an increased volume of the charging chamber and an elongated barrel was carried out. This gun, known as the Gerat 45, was supposed to provide a 15-20% increase in range and ceiling compared to the Flak 40. However, a sharp increase in the muzzle velocity led to accelerated wear of the barrel, and the increased recoil required an increase in the design of the gun. The finishing of the Gerat 45 was delayed, and before the end of hostilities, it was not possible to launch the new 128-mm anti-aircraft gun into mass production. The same fate befell 150mm (Gerat 50) and 240mm anti-aircraft guns (Gerat 80/85), developed by Friedrich Krupp AG and Rheinmetall-Borsig AG.

The idea of ​​creating a coaxial 40-mm anti-aircraft gun based on the Flak 128 turned out to be more viable. A double-barreled anti-aircraft gun with the same range and reach in height made it possible to increase the density of fire.


12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40

In the middle of 1942, at the production facilities of Hannoversche Maschinenbau AG in Hanover, the assembly of 128-mm Gerat 44 twin anti-aircraft artillery mounts began, which received the designation 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40 after being adopted.


Two 128-mm barrels were located in a horizontal plane and had loading mechanisms deployed in opposite directions. The mass of the installation in the firing position exceeded 27 tons. A carriage from an experienced 150-mm anti-aircraft gun Gerat 50 was used for it. The installation was transported partially disassembled (with the barrels removed) on two biaxial bogies. Thanks to the use of an automated charger, the total rate of fire reached 28 rds / min. The anti-aircraft gun was served by a crew of 22 people.


Provided only for the stationary installation of such weapons on a turntable, providing a circular fire. To protect the most important cities in Germany, most of the 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40 was placed on the upper platforms of the anti-aircraft towers. The anti-aircraft battery consisted of four paired installations, which made it possible to create an impressive fire barrier on the way of enemy aircraft.


The production rate of the 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40 was slow. By January 1, 1943, 10 units were produced. For the entire 1943, 8 units were built. In total, 1945 twin anti-aircraft guns were delivered by February 34.

For the armament of large warships on the basis of the 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40, the KM40 tower was created. Although they did not manage to install such 128-mm systems on any German ship before the surrender of Germany, several KM40 towers defended the large ports of Germany.

The use of 105 and 128-mm German anti-aircraft guns in the USSR


Soviet specialists first got acquainted with the 105 mm Flak 38 guns in 1940. Four guns purchased from Germany were delivered to an anti-aircraft artillery range near Evpatoria and underwent comprehensive tests.

German Flak 38s were tested in conjunction with the Soviet 100-mm anti-aircraft guns L-6 and 73-K. The ballistic data of the German and Soviet cannons were almost the same, but the accuracy of the "German" was significantly higher. In addition, when a German 105-mm projectile burst, more than twice as many lethal fragments were formed. In terms of barrel survivability and reliability, the Flak 38 surpassed our 100mm anti-aircraft guns. Despite the best performance of the German gun, the 100-mm 73-K anti-aircraft gun was recommended for mass production. Which, however, before the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, they did not manage to bring it to an acceptable state.

After the Red Army entered the territory of Germany, the enemy tried to use a number of 105-mm anti-aircraft guns for firing at ground targets. The range of the Flak 38/39 guns made it possible to use them to fire at targets deep in the Soviet defenses, and the armor-piercing 105-mm shells were capable of destroying any Soviet tank. However, due to the high cost and very low mobility for a field gun, the Germans fired from 105-mm anti-aircraft guns at ground targets only as a last resort.

As for the 12,8 cm Flak 40 and 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40, due to the stationary placement, only a few cases were reliably recorded when they fired at the advancing Soviet troops.


Due to the fact that most of the 105 and 128-mm anti-aircraft guns were in their positions until the last moment, our troops captured several hundred serviceable Flak 38/39 and Flak 40, as well as a large amount of ammunition for them.

In the first post-war decade, 105 and 128-mm anti-aircraft guns of German production, which underwent refurbishment, were in service with the USSR Air Defense Forces. Instead of German anti-aircraft fire control devices, Soviet PUAZO-4 were used together with captured heavy anti-aircraft guns.

According to American data, 105-mm anti-aircraft guns, served by Soviet crews, were used against American aircraft in Korea. In the mid-1950s, captured 105 and 128-mm anti-aircraft guns were supplanted in the Soviet Army by the 100-mm KS-19 and 130-mm KS-30.

Use of 105 and 128 mm German anti-aircraft guns in other countries


The only state where 1960-mm German Flak 105 anti-aircraft guns were operated until the early 39s was Czechoslovakia.

During wartime, the enterprises of the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia actively worked in the interests of the armed forces of Nazi Germany. The hands of the Czechs collected 25% of all German tanks and self-propelled guns, 20% of trucks and 40% of rifle weapons German army. According to archival data, at the beginning of 1944, the Czech industry on average monthly supplied the Third Reich with about 100 self-propelled artillery guns, 140 infantry guns, 180 anti-aircraft guns. It is quite natural that the German command sought to protect the Czech factories from air strikes, and deployed large air defense forces around them. Including anti-aircraft batteries 88 and 105-mm anti-aircraft guns, coupled with radars FuMG-65 Würzburg D, which received primary information from surveillance radars of the Freya family: FuMG-44 and FuMG-480.


Antenna post of the FuMG-65 radar in the exposition of the Leshany Museum near Prague

In May 1945, on the territory of Czechoslovakia there were up to one and a half hundred heavy anti-aircraft guns: 88-mm Flak 36/37 and Flak 41, as well as 105-mm Flak 39. Subsequently, most of this German inheritance was used for its intended purpose or was sold abroad. The Czechs also got 10 Würzburg and Freya radars, which served until 1955. After the establishment of the communist regime in the country and the beginning of large-scale deliveries of Soviet radar equipment, the German radar stations were decommissioned.

However, after the decommissioning of German radars, the service of the 88-mm Flak 41 and 105-mm Flak 39 continued until 1963. It was in this year that the 185th anti-aircraft missile brigade "Prykarpattya", equipped with the SA-75M "Dvina" air defense system, began combat duty.

During the preparation of this publication, it was not possible to find information about the supply of the Flak 38/39 and Flak 40 anti-aircraft batteries by the Nazis to other countries. However, a number of 105mm anti-aircraft guns deployed along the Atlantic coast were captured by the Allies in France, Norway and the Netherlands.


German 105mm anti-aircraft gun abandoned in France

In the post-war period, 105-mm German anti-aircraft guns were in service with the French, Norwegian and Yugoslav coastal defense units. Although these guns theoretically had the ability to fire at aircraft, the lack of anti-aircraft fire control devices devalued their anti-aircraft potential.


105-mm anti-aircraft gun FlaK 38 in the military museum of Belgrade

The 10,5 cm SK C / 33 naval general purpose guns were used by the French Navy to re-equip two Italian Capitani Romani-class light cruisers transferred as reparations.


Destroyer "Chatoreno"

During the modernization of former Italian light cruisers, 135 mm turret artillery mounts 135 mm / 45 OTO / Ansaldo Mod. 1938 was replaced with captured 105 mm German guns. Three twin 105-mm units were installed instead of towers 1, 3 and 4. Instead of tower 2, a twin unit with 57-mm anti-aircraft guns appeared. The French reclassified the Italian cruisers as destroyers. The active service of the destroyers Chatoreno and Guichen continued until the early 1960s.
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Articles from this series:
Use of captured German pistols in the USSR
The use of German captured submachine guns in the USSR
The use of captured German rifles and machine guns in the USSR
The use of captured German machine guns in the USSR
The use of captured German tanks and self-propelled guns in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War
Use of captured "Panthers" and "Tigers" at the final stage of the Great Patriotic War
The use of captured German self-propelled guns in the Red Army at the final stage of World War II
The use of German armored vehicles in the postwar period
The use of captured German mortars and multiple launch rocket systems
Use of captured German anti-tank guns
Captured German infantry guns in service in the Red Army
Captured German 105-mm howitzers in service in the Red Army
Captured 105-mm cannons and 150-mm heavy field howitzers in service in the Red Army
The use of captured German 20-mm anti-aircraft machine guns
The use of 30 and 37-mm captured German anti-aircraft guns
The use of captured German 88-mm anti-aircraft guns
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  1. apro
    apro April 16 2021 04: 54
    +2
    The superiority of the German anti-aircraft artillery. Clearly showed the retirement of the Soviet Ariilerian school. And much more valuable is the lag in detection and target designation systems. And they were able to overcome only after a high-quality jerk into the zurge, devaluing large-caliber anti-aircraft artillery.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 04: 58
      +5
      Quote: apro
      The superiority of the German anti-aircraft artillery. Clearly showed the retirement of the Soviet Ariilerian school
      And the copying of a 120 mm Soviet mortar by the Germans clearly showed the general engineering lag of Germany, they themselves could not come up with such a simple thing, shame on them!


      However, due to the high cost and very low mobility for a field gun, the Germans fired from 105-mm anti-aircraft guns at ground targets only as a last resort.
      If you managed to take positions or at least turn around.
      1. apro
        apro April 16 2021 05: 06
        -4
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        the copying of a 120 mm Soviet mortar by the Germans clearly showed the general engineering lag of Germany, they themselves could not come up with such a simple thing, shame on them!

        The tasks were not set for this caliber. But the German 7.5 cm field gun coped with the tasks. And it was quite effective than mortars. Howitzers were still better than mortars. more precisely.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 05: 08
          +2
          Quote: apro
          7.5 cm coped well with the tasks

          And that is why the Germans produced the Granatwerfer 42, the 1942 model, it is logical what.
          1. apro
            apro April 16 2021 05: 12
            -6
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            logical, what.

            It depends on the logic. The main losses of the Soviet army are from artillery. The losses of the German army from small arms.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 05: 15
              0
              Quote: apro
              It depends on the logic. The main losses of the Soviet army are from artillery. The losses of the German army from small arms.
              Yes, it is clear that there is no logic. And the Germans were crushed with rifles, well that not with bayonets.
              1. apro
                apro April 16 2021 05: 21
                0
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                And the Germans were crushed with rifles, well that not with bayonets.

                That affected the unnecessary losses. It is much more effective to destroy the enemy at a distance, not endangering their own troops.
                1. 89268170588
                  89268170588 21 May 2021 20: 59
                  0
                  Mortar 120mm Hans accurately copied to the micron. The 76 mm USV gun was generally accepted into service. By the way, only this weapon in the initial period of the Second World War was dangerous for the T-34. Do not be slavish. "RATSH BOOM" was respected by the Germans.
            2. EvilLion
              EvilLion April 19 2021 09: 52
              0
              What nonsense if it weren't for heavy. artillery and numerous tanks, the Soviet infantry from Wan from the village could not have done anything with the Germans. Conversely, better prepared due to higher ur. of basic education, the Germans could use individual or battalion weapons with much greater efficiency. Fighting a battalion against a battalion of the Red Army against the Wehrmacht would not have pulled in principle.
              1. apro
                apro April 19 2021 09: 59
                +2
                Quote: EvilLion
                What nonsense

                I do not understand your thought, respectable. What is nonsense ??
                1. EvilLion
                  EvilLion April 19 2021 10: 04
                  0
                  Already in the fact that in such a big war, artillery is a greater source of losses than all other reasons combined, and in the case of the Red Army vs the Wehrmacht, it is for the Red Army that the dependence on artillery is higher due to the worse training of the infantry.
                  1. apro
                    apro April 19 2021 10: 14
                    +1
                    Quote: EvilLion
                    it is for the Red Army that the dependence on artillery is higher due to the inferior training of the infantry.

                    And also the insufficient efficiency of their own artillery. And in the greater efficiency of the German. Due to better organization and the correct choice of the main artillery systems of the battlefield. The Germans relied on maneuverable howitzers with a variable charge. Soviet ones on direct fire cannons.
                    1. EvilLion
                      EvilLion April 19 2021 10: 57
                      0
                      You need to carry the howitzer more fur. traction. It is obvious that the USSR is not a leader in this regard. Although the ML-20 was built more than the Germans of analogues and, as A. Isaev said: "Where the ML-20, there is victory."
                      1. apro
                        apro April 19 2021 11: 07
                        0
                        Quote: EvilLion
                        The howitzer needs to be carried more fur. thrust

                        It is clear that it is necessary. Or even better, put on a self-propelled chassis. And book. And constantly be on a leash with the panzers. And work on the first whistle. I once wondered why the Germans converted tanks into forward artillery observation posts. always be vkurse events on the forefront. and quickly organize an artillery barrier. I understand patriotism. but I don’t understand why it is a great sin to learn from the Germans. But they had something to learn.
              2. 89268170588
                89268170588 21 May 2021 21: 08
                0
                Who are you respected in the world. The German infantry of the beginning of the Second World War was at an average age of 10 years older than our conscripts. After meeting with these boys, the age of the Wehrmacht soldiers sharply younger. The armament of the Wehrmacht battalion of the Red Army is approximately the same; the Germans have more numbers. At the beginning of the Second World War, the Hans won because of the experience and interaction between the branches of the armed forces. As soon as their aircraft or tanks were excluded from the battle, the Germans sour.
        2. Oleg ratay
          Oleg ratay 19 May 2021 17: 59
          -1
          A howitzer with similar calibers has a longer range, but less accuracy. This was explained to us at the military department. In a mortar, the elevation angle of the barrel is greater, and the circular deviation is less. And the effectiveness of a fragmentation mine is higher than that of a howitzer projectile with a fuse for fragmentation. The mine falls almost vertically, and all the fragments are dangerous. In the case of the projectile, part of the fragments goes up, part is buried in the ground, and only the side beams are dangerous.
      2. Bongo
        April 16 2021 13: 44
        +9
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        And the copying of a 120 mm Soviet mortar by the Germans clearly showed the general engineering lag of Germany, they themselves could not come up with such a simple thing, shame on them!

        Patriotism certainly deserves respect, but only in those cases when it is confirmed by facts.
        Considering the level of anti-aircraft guns and their fire control systems described in this publication, which we did not have even close in the years of the Second World War, it is somehow strange to talk about the general engineering lag of Germany.
        As for 120-mm mortars, then initially it was a different approach to regimental artillery. The Germans relied on 75mm infantry guns and 150mm howitzers. The 75-mm 7,5 cm le.IG.18 cannons fully justified themselves and were certainly superior to our 76-mm regiments, but with the 150-mm heavy infantry guns 15 cm sIG. 33 did not grow together. Of course, their firepower was high, but the range let us down, the cost was too high, and the mobility left much to be desired.
        Of course, the PM-38 mortar was by many criteria a more successful decision in the regimental echelon, and an intelligent enemy made the right choice.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 16: 28
          0
          Quote: Bongo
          talking about the general engineering lag in Germany is somehow strange.

          It's no less strange to say
          Quote: apro
          showed the retirement of the Soviet Ariilerian school
          using the example of anti-aircraft artillery, forgetting about field, anti-tank and rocket artillery, not to mention the fact that the artillery and design schools are completely different things.
          Quote: Bongo
          but with 150 mm heavy infantry guns 15 cm sIG. 33 did not grow together
          That’s why Apro didn’t remember about it. You point him to this, but I don't need to, I am already aware of the superiority of German anti-aircraft artillery over Soviet ones.
          1. Bongo
            April 16 2021 17: 59
            +4
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            It's no less strange to say

            Let everyone speak for themselves, and do not transfer the arrows to others? I quoted this statement of yours:
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And the copying of a 120 mm Soviet mortar by the Germans clearly showed the general engineering lag of Germany, they themselves could not come up with such a simple thing, shame on them!

            You claim that the Germans are for a reason "general engineering lag"were unable to create a 120-mm mortar. But at the same time they were able to create excellent anti-aircraft guns. A little strange, is not it?
            I am in many ways with apro I don’t agree. But regarding this:
            Quote: apro
            Tasks were not set for this caliber
            -I completely agree.
            The German designers were not initially tasked with creating such a weapon, which, as it turned out later, was a mistake.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 20: 45
              0
              Quote: Bongo
              And the copying of a 120 mm Soviet mortar by the Germans clearly showed the general engineering lag of Germany, they themselves could not come up with such a simple thing, shame on them!
              This statement was the answer to this
              Quote: apro
              The superiority of the German anti-aircraft artillery. Clearly showed the retirement of the Soviet Ariilerian school
              It's a shame that I forgot to add the word sarcasm in quotes.

              Quote: Bongo
              You argue that the Germans, due to the "general engineering lag", were unable to create a 120-mm mortar.
              Once again, this is sarcasm in response to Apro's statement.
              Quote: apro
              The superiority of the German anti-aircraft artillery.clearly showed the retirement of the Soviet Ariilerian school


              Quote: Bongo
              The German designers were not initially tasked with creating such a weapon, which, as it turned out later, was a mistake.
              Remind me if before the war the Soviet designers were faced with the task of creating 100 and 122 mm ground anti-aircraft guns, I forgot something. SARCASM.
        2. apro
          apro April 19 2021 11: 34
          +1
          Quote: Bongo
          Of course, their firepower was at a height, but the range pumped up,

          That did not prevent the use of the .Sturmpanzer IV in the assault self-propelled guns and it was a smart decision.
  2. BISMARCK94
    BISMARCK94 April 16 2021 05: 06
    +1
    All the same, the Germans could use anti-aircraft guns) but, judging by their mass, they overfed)
    1. LastPS
      LastPS April 21 2021 15: 02
      +1
      Well, these are overfed in the mind of specific tasks. When they are fulfilled, the dimensions are not so fundamental and gigantism is justified, unlike Mous, for example.
  3. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I April 16 2021 05: 25
    +11
    Well, how would a 150-mm anti-aircraft gun look like, it is still possible to imagine ... comparing it with the Soviet post-war 152-mm anti-aircraft gun KS-52! But imagine a 240-mm anti-aircraft gun ... belay Alas! My imagination is not enough! Monsieur, it is not mange pas sis zhur. Goeben zi mir bitte etvas ko ..... Give something from your imagination to the former head of the communications center of the territorial administration of the USSR State Committee for Supply! ...
    1. apro
      apro April 16 2021 05: 43
      0
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      But imagine a 240-mm anti-aircraft gun ...

      It would have been necessary. If the air defense missile system had not been launched massively. The USSR was practically defenseless from air strikes by the Anglo-Saxons until the end of the 50s.
      1. Alf
        Alf April 16 2021 21: 46
        0
        Quote: apro
        The USSR was practically defenseless against air strikes by the Anglo-Saxons until the end of the 50s.

        And the KS-19 with a reach of 15 km?
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion April 19 2021 09: 53
        -2
        MiG-17 and MiG-19 are perplexed.
    2. Toucan
      Toucan April 16 2021 06: 05
      +3
      If I'm not mistaken, did the appearance of 152-mm anti-aircraft guns coincide with the beginning of the deployment of the air defense system? And therefore, they were released in a limited batch.
    3. marat2016
      marat2016 April 16 2021 09: 47
      0
      This despite the fact that the work on missiles can be called successful ...
  4. Catfish
    Catfish April 16 2021 06: 06
    +14
    Sergey, thank you very much for the most interesting article. good
    It is already good in itself, but against the general background of the printed pale sickness it looks just gorgeous. Graceful, exhaustive and with lots of great photographic material.
    Thank you again!
    1. Catfish
      Catfish April 16 2021 06: 32
      +10
      I was especially pleased with the material about the rearmament of two trophy Italian scouts by the French. That's really really real French humor - to install German cannons on an Italian ship and introduce this compilation into the French fleet. laughing
      By the way, our leader "Tashkent" is a brother of French Italians, they are all of the same project "Capitani Romani".
      "Tashket"

      "Guichen" (ex. ???)

      "Chatoreno" (ex. "Attilio Regolo")
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA April 16 2021 14: 51
        +5
        Quote: Sea Cat
        By the way, our leader "Tashkent" is a brother of French Italians, they are all of the same project "Capitani Romani".

        Rather, they are two branches of the same family.
        "Tashkent" grew out of the "destroyer" branch - a closed scout project of 2,8 kt.
        Capitani Romani grew out of the "cruising" branch - the 3,4 kt scout project.
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins April 16 2021 06: 41
      +11
      I join. Thanks to the author not only for the interesting topic, but also for the good style, dimension and illustrations. No more, no less - everything in moderation.
      1. Bongo
        April 16 2021 13: 52
        +5
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        I join. Thanks to the author not only for the interesting topic, but also for the good style, dimension and illustrations. No more, no less - everything in moderation.

        Empirically, it was found that most of the readers have difficulty digesting a publication of more than 10-12 Word pages. And it is precisely in this connection that one topic has been "chewed" for several months.
    3. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter April 16 2021 11: 21
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat
      It is already good in itself, but against the general background of the printed pale sickness it looks just gorgeous. Graceful, exhaustive and with lots of great photographic material.
      Thank you again!

      Well here again, Kotyara beat me laughing drinks
      we have an antiaircraft gun on a pedestal
      This is just in time for that conversation. yes
      In fact, the anti-aircraft guns did not cope with their task, there was not enough density of fire when the enemy aircraft approached, the Nenets (as the youngest son says) bombers flew even without cover and bombed from different heights, and sometimes our "hawks" that flew in (as Grandma said) chirped chirped and from the whole wave knocked down one or two maximum and, as a rule, at the cost of our own lives. By the way, we found one such henschil, by chance, according to the stories of residents, and then according to information from the German archives.
      Almost literally, "since you don't hit the planes, put all anti-aircraft guns on direct fire at tanks and infantry!"
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 16 2021 12: 22
        +4
        Hi Desantura. soldier
        "since you don't hit the planes, put all anti-aircraft guns on direct fire at tanks and infantry!"

        Didn't Rommel give it out to his anti-aircraft gunners in Africa? laughing They crumbled enough British tanks there.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter April 16 2021 12: 44
          +11
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Didn't Rommel give it out to his anti-aircraft gunners in Africa? They crumbled enough British tanks there.

          nooooo, from the local orders for the defense of the city. The service of the guns was mainly a female collective, and with all their pedantry and accuracy, without hitting air targets, they completely calmly hit the tank with two shots! And the Guderianich was freaked out from the losses of the mech. Parts, and the anti-aircraft gunners were so hollow that those tanks had nothing to trophy, well, except that the rifleman was removed, the rest was melted down good drinks
          We have a rivulet, called krushma, so I've been catching a roach for 5 years, sitting backwards on the skating rink of a Nemchurov tank, this is how it happens. yes
        2. Yaroslav Tekkel
          Yaroslav Tekkel 28 July 2021 00: 55
          +1
          Rommel understood well that Matildas, Valentines and Churchillies could not be pierced by standard German 50s and Italian 47s. But the German 88-mm and Italian 90-mm anti-aircraft guns are easy.
    4. Bongo
      April 16 2021 13: 51
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Sergey, thank you very much for the most interesting article.

      Konstantin, thank you for your kind words! drinks
      Finally, I finished this long cycle, and started working on the promised series about air defense in Japan.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 16 2021 15: 14
        +5
        Finally I ended this drawn out cycle

        So "shut up" he was to the delight of the reading public. smile And it's a pity that it's over, now we will wait for your next episode. drinks
  5. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 April 16 2021 06: 08
    +6
    The battery of 105-mm anti-aircraft guns purchased before the war is mentioned in his memoirs by Zhuravlev, head of the Moscow air defense zone
    1. Potter
      Potter April 16 2021 07: 51
      +6
      105-mm anti-aircraft guns in the naval version of a paired stabilized universal installation were part of the armament of the German-built cruiser Petropavlovsk, acquired by the USSR and being completed afloat in Leningrad. It was also planned to equip the Russian-built Chapaev pr. 68I cruiser with these installations. It has already managed to make changes in the design of the hull associated with the installation of German guns. But the Germans deliberately delayed the delivery of the installations; they never arrived in the USSR. Nevertheless, the post-war universal stabilized installations SM-52 in caliber 100mm and CM-2-1 in caliber 130mm used German technical solutions for stabilization.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I April 16 2021 10: 24
      +3
      Quote: serg.shishkov2015
      The battery of 105-mm anti-aircraft guns purchased before the war is mentioned in his memoirs by Zhuravlev, head of the Moscow air defense zone

      There was a case .... A 4-gun battery of 105-mm German anti-aircraft guns in the Moscow air defense system defended the capital in 41. The battery even included gun aiming radars (SON) ... But I forgot: "whose" were the radars? I asked the Author of articles about German anti-aircraft guns this question, but did not receive an answer ... crying
      It would probably be interesting to learn about the results of the use of these 105-mm anti-aircraft guns near Moscow; because. there is very little information about this ... request
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 16 2021 11: 00
        +3
        It would probably be interesting to learn about the results of the use of these 105-mm anti-aircraft guns near Moscow ...

        Apparently they used it well, Moscow remained intact. wink

        Hello Volodya! hi
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I April 16 2021 11: 35
          +2
          I wish you good health, Kostya! drinks
      2. Bongo
        April 16 2021 13: 56
        +6
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        There was a case .... A 4-gun battery of 105-mm German anti-aircraft guns in the Moscow air defense system defended the capital in 41. The battery even included gun aiming radars (SON) ... But I forgot: "whose" were the radars? I asked the Author of articles about German anti-aircraft guns this question, but did not receive an answer ...

        Vladimir, hello!
        I am with you in terms of access to information on an equal footing. Since my permanent residence is in the Far East, I do not have access to the archives, and I "dig" all materials for publications in "publicly available sources". I physically do not have enough time to answer all the questions. In addition to "writing", which is entertainment, I have a main job in one of the government agencies. hi
        1. Tochilka
          Tochilka April 16 2021 15: 23
          +4
          Excellent, I would say you have fun! It reads very interesting.
        2. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I April 16 2021 16: 19
          +3
          I wish you good health, Sergei! Well, okay ! To a large extent I feel annoyed with myself ... after all, I once knew the exact information about the radars of the "German" battery, and about the battles that the battery was conducting; but I managed to forget the information so firmly (it was a long time ago!). I can not ! The reason is that half of the "archive" was once lost on my computer!
  6. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 April 16 2021 07: 32
    +3
    The largest-caliber anti-aircraft guns in the world
    1) 305-mm coastal battery on the Mekkenziev mountains.
    2) GK Lk * Tirpitz *,
    3) GC Lk * Yamato *
    1. Aleksandr97
      Aleksandr97 April 16 2021 13: 37
      +3
      Voroshilovskaya battery - towers of the Battleship of the Russian Empire "Poltava", for air defense missions +25 will still not be enough.
      Number of towers 2 pcs.
      Number of guns 6 pcs.
      The angle of inclination of the trunks from -5 to +25 degrees
      Rate of fire 1,5 rounds per minute per barrel
      Types of shells long-range, semi-armor-piercing, armor-piercing
      Projectile weight 314-470 kg, depending on the type
      Sighting range 35 kilometers
      Turret armor thickness 300 mm
      Total tower weight 1200 tons
      Barrel weight 51 ton
      Weight of the rotating part of the tower 900 tons
      Combat crew of the tower 75 people
      The number of l / s battery 399 people
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA April 16 2021 15: 24
      +6
      Quote: serg.shishkov2015
      1) 305-mm coastal battery on the Mekkenziev mountains.

      Then the GC LK "Marat" and "October Revolution".
      "Marat":
      At the eleventh hour from the "Marat" at a distance of over 300 cables in the direction of Peterhof, a group of enemy bombers was found, followed by several more waves of "Junkers". On alert, the battleship was prepared for battle, and rangefinder posts began to issue distance and heading angle to guns of all calibers. At 10:49 am, the first group of aircraft was fired with shrapnel from the bow 305-mm turret. The shell exploded shortly, but the enemy bombers first split into two groups, and then, sharply changing course, rushed to Kronstadt.
      © Platonov
      "Oktyabrina":
      The first live shots with the main caliber were fired on August 28: shrapnel managed to shoot down a spotter balloon over the Kipen-Krasnoe Selo region
      1. serg.shishkov2015
        serg.shishkov2015 April 17 2021 05: 40
        0
        Thanks for the information!
  7. Pavel57
    Pavel57 April 16 2021 11: 31
    0
    Was the 130 mm KS-30 a copy of the 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40?
    1. Bongo
      April 16 2021 13: 58
      +7
      Quote: Pavel57
      Was the 130 mm KS-30 a copy of the 12,8 cm Flakzwilling 40?

      It is possible that some technical solutions were borrowed, but basically these are structurally different systems. You can independently compare the appearance of the German 128mm and our 130mm anti-aircraft gun. It is clearly seen that they have different units and line-up.
  8. NIKN
    NIKN April 16 2021 17: 04
    +3
    Here, on the basis of 88mm anti-aircraft guns, they created a tank gun, on the basis of 128mm they tried to build something on the Mouse and put it on the Jagdtiger, but the 105mm anti-aircraft base on armored vehicles seemed not even to be adapted. I wonder why?
    1. Bongo
      April 16 2021 17: 46
      +7
      Quote: NIKNN
      Here, on the basis of 88mm anti-aircraft guns, they created a tank gun, on the basis of 128mm they tried to build something on the Mouse and put it on the Jagdtiger, but the 105mm anti-aircraft base on armored vehicles seemed not even to be adapted. I wonder why?

      Two 10.5cm K18 auf Panzer Selbsfahrlafette IVa self-propelled guns, also known as "Fat Max", were built and even managed to fight. But they used 105mm K18 field guns.
      1. NIKN
        NIKN April 16 2021 17: 57
        +4
        I heard about these, but on the basis of anti-aircraft guns, like 88mm I don't know. And after all, 105 is a powerful caliber, and they began to bet on 128mm. This is strange. It is clear that the main purpose is anti-aircraft and they are needed there. But maybe the complex set up trunks played a role?
        1. Bongo
          April 16 2021 18: 02
          +4
          Quote: NIKNN
          I heard about these, but on the basis of anti-aircraft guns, like 88mm I don't know. And after all, 105 is a powerful caliber, and they began to bet on 128mm. This is strange. It is clear that the main purpose is anti-aircraft and they are needed there. But maybe the complex set up trunks played a role?

          Yes, there was no particular need, and the price tag is extremely high. 88-mm guns perfectly coped with the defeat of all tanks that existed at that time. 128-mm guns on tanks and self-propelled guns also did not take root.
        2. Alf
          Alf April 16 2021 21: 55
          -1
          Quote: NIKNN
          and they began to bet on 128mm. That's strange.

          High-explosive action of the projectile ...
      2. serg.shishkov2015
        serg.shishkov2015 April 17 2021 10: 23
        0
        And they fought against us in 1941!
  9. dgonni
    dgonni April 16 2021 20: 27
    +1
    What the Deutsches had ideally with was steel and the calculation of the trunks in terms of internal ballistics!
    In fact, the basis of the USSR barreled PVRO after the war is the realization and modernization of the German experience.
    Where the union took the caliber and quantity of metal per unit, the Germans took the culture of production and the calculation of ammunition.
    10.5 is an excellent all-round weapon. In fact, it closed the sky completely and in terms of price, efficiency was the best.
    128mm is already from the story of a super weapon. The costs did not match the result.
    Although the performance is respectful and some of the achievements were used by the union after the war.
    1. Bryanskiy_Volk
      Bryanskiy_Volk April 25 2021 15: 44
      0
      Military historians also have an opposite opinion: "There is no big mind to shove ligating additives into steel from the point of view of metallurgy. And where the Germans stupidly ligating additives have become abuses - Soviet industrialists had to dodge and improve the technology of hardening and rolling." (Unfortunately, I can't name the authorship for sure, but I think I heard it from Klim Zhukov on YouTube)
      1. dgonni
        dgonni April 25 2021 18: 46
        0
        Well, this just applies to the Soviet school of metallurgy!
        Unfortunately!
        For countries with shortages have always sought to reduce the amount of alloying additives at the expense of technology!
        At the same time ensuring reproducibility and quality on huge batches and batches.
      2. Oleg ratay
        Oleg ratay 19 May 2021 18: 09
        0
        Well, choosing the right alloying elements in the right combination is not crazy. How many years aluminum was not considered as structural, until they figured out adding a little copper to it. Both components are ugly plastic, while duralumin is vice versa.
  10. Alf
    Alf April 16 2021 21: 35
    0
    Particularly indicative was the raid of the "flying fortresses" B-17 in 1943 on the ball bearing plant, when the German air defense forces destroyed about half of the bombers participating in the raid.

    Especially if you know the "insignificant" fact that during the raid on Regensburg the Fortresses went WITHOUT fighter cover. This is where the Messers and Fokkers frolic.
  11. Constanty
    Constanty April 17 2021 18: 11
    +1
    German air defense was armed not only with the 10,5 cm Flak 38 and 10,5 cm Flak 39 guns. The 10,5 cm SK C / 32 guns were also used. They were installed, for example, in Swinoujscie, Norway.


    , on the Atlantic Wall, on German ships, as well as on the Romanian "Amiral Murgescu", which was delivered to the RKKF as a trophy under the name "Don".
    1. Toucan
      Toucan April 24 2021 03: 13
      +1
      German air defense was armed not only with the 10,5 cm Flak 38 and 10,5 cm Flak 39 guns. The 10,5 cm SK C / 32 guns were also used. They were installed, for example, in Swinoujscie, Norway.

      This is more of a coastal defense. These guns did not have PUAZO, and could only conduct defensive anti-aircraft fire.
  12. zwlad
    zwlad 13 June 2021 20: 02
    0
    Interesting article. Very dangerous equipment was in service with the Germans. It's good that relatively little