Military Review

How German prisoners of war lived and worked in the Soviet Union

275

In Soviet times, they tried not to advertise the maintenance and use of German prisoners of war and their allies after the war. Everyone knew that the former soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht were used to rebuild cities destroyed by the war, at Soviet construction sites and factories, but it was not accepted to talk about this.


In total, during the war years and after the surrender of Germany, 3 soldiers of Germany and its satellites were taken prisoner and, according to official data, were in camps in the Soviet Union, including 486 Germans (prisoners of war and internees from various European countries, civilians Volksdeutsche). To accommodate them in the structure of the Main Directorate for Prisoners of War and Internees under the NKVD (GUPVI), more than 206 special camps were created throughout the country, accommodating from 2 to 388 people. In captivity, 443 German prisoners died, or 300% of their number.

How German prisoners of war lived and worked in the Soviet Union

However, according to German data, there were almost 3,5 million prisoners in the USSR. And this was due to several reasons. After the capture, not all of them ended up in the NKVD camps, at first they were held at the collection points of prisoners of war, then in temporary army camps and from where they were transferred to the NKVD. During this time, the number of prisoners decreased (executions, death from wounds, escapes, suicides, etc.), some of the prisoners of war were released at the fronts, mainly prisoners of war of the Romanian, Slovak and Hungarian armies, in connection with which the Germans called other nationality. In addition, there were conflicting data on the registration of prisoners belonging to other German formations (Volsksturm, SS, SA, construction formations).

Each prisoner was repeatedly interrogated, the NKVD officers collected testimonies from his subordinates, residents of the occupied territories, and if evidence of involvement in crimes was found, he was awaited by a military tribunal's verdict - execution or hard labor.

From 1943 to 1949, 37 prisoners of war were convicted in the Soviet Union, of which about 600 were convicted in the first years of captivity, and about 10 in 700-26. By the verdict of the tribunal, 1949 people were sentenced to death, the rest - to hard labor for up to 1950 years. They were kept in Vorkuta and in the Krasnokamsk region. There were also Germans, suspected of having connections with the Gestapo, of atrocities against people, and saboteurs. There were 263 German generals in Soviet captivity, of whom 25 returned to Germany, and 376 died (277 of them were hanged as war criminals).

German prisoners of war did not always obey meekly, there were escapes, riots, uprisings. From 1943 to 1948, 11403 prisoners of war escaped from the camps, 10445 were detained, 958 people were killed and 342 prisoners managed to escape. In January 1945, a major uprising took place in a camp near Minsk, the prisoners were dissatisfied with the poor food, barricaded themselves in the barracks and took the guards hostage. Barak had to be taken by storm, the NKVD troops used artillery, as a result, more than a hundred prisoners died.

Content of prisoners


The Germans were kept in captivity, of course, far from being in sanatorium conditions, this was especially felt during the war. Cold, cramped conditions, unsanitary conditions, infectious diseases were common. The mortality rate due to malnutrition, injury and disease during the war and in the early post-war years, especially in the winter of 1945/1946, reached 70%. Only in subsequent years this figure was reduced. In Soviet camps, 14,9% of prisoners of war died. For comparison: in fascist camps - 58% of Soviet prisoners of war died, so the conditions there were much more terrible. Do not forget that there was a terrible famine in the country, Soviet citizens perished, and there was no time for the captured Germans.

The fate of the surrendered 90-strong German group at Stalingrad was lamentable. A huge crowd of emaciated, half-naked and hungry prisoners made winter crossings of several tens of kilometers a day, often spent the night in the open air and ate almost nothing. By the end of the war, no more than 6000 of them survived.

In the diary of General Serov, sent by Stalin to organize the accommodation, food and treatment of prisoners of war after the completion of the liquidation of the boiler near Stalingrad, an episode is described how the Soviet escorts treated the captured Germans. On the road, the general saw the often come across corpses of German prisoners. When he caught up with a huge column of prisoners, he was amazed at the behavior of the escort sergeant. The one, if the prisoner fell from exhaustion, simply finished him off with a pistol shot and, when the general asked who ordered it, replied that he himself had decided so. Serov forbade the shooting of prisoners and ordered to send a car for the weakened and bring them to the camp. This column was marked out in some dilapidated stables, they began to die en masse, corpses were sprinkled with lime in huge pits and buried with tractors.

All prisoners were used in different jobs, so it was necessary to feed them at the very least to maintain their working capacity. The daily ration of prisoners of war was 400 g of bread (after 1943 this rate increased to 600-700 g), 100 g of fish, 100 g of cereals, 500 g of vegetables and potatoes, 20 g of sugar, 30 g of salt. In fact, in wartime, the ration was rarely given out in full and was replaced by the products that were available. Nutrition rates have changed over the years, but have always depended on the production rates. So, in 1944, 500 grams of bread were received by those who produced up to 50% of the norm, 600 grams - those who completed up to 80%, 700 grams - those who completed more than 80%.

Naturally, everyone was malnourished, hunger spoiled people and turned them into animals. The formation of groups of the healthiest prisoners, the theft of food from each other, and fights with the weaning of food from the weakest became common occurrences. They even knocked out gold teeth that could be exchanged for cigarettes. The Germans in captivity despised their allies - Italians and Romanians, humiliated them, took away food and often killed them in fights. Those in response, settling down in food points, reduced their rations, passing the food on to their fellow tribesmen. For a bowl of soup or a piece of bread, people were ready for anything. According to the recollections of the prisoners, cannibalism was also encountered in the camps.

With the surrender of Germany, many lost their courage and lost heart, realizing the hopelessness of their situation. There were frequent cases of suicide, some mutilated themselves, chopping off several fingers on their hands, thinking that they would be sent home, but this did not help.

Using the labor of prisoners


After the war devastation and colossal losses of the male population, the use of the labor of millions of prisoners of war really contributed to the restoration of the national economy.

The Germans, as a rule, worked conscientiously and were disciplined, German labor discipline became a household name and gave rise to a kind of meme: "Of course, it was the Germans who built it."

The Germans were often surprised by the unfair attitude of Russians to work, and they learned such a Russian concept as "trash". The prisoners received a monetary allowance: 7 rubles - for privates, 10 - for officers, 30 - for generals, for shock work there was a bonus - 50 rubles a month. However, officers were forbidden to have orderlies. The prisoners could even receive letters and money orders from their homeland.

The labor of prisoners was widely used - at construction sites, factories, logging sites and collective farms. Among the largest construction projects where the prisoners were employed are the Kuibyshev and Kakhovskaya HPPs, the Vladimir Tractor Plant, the Chelyabinsk Metallurgical Plant, pipe-rolling plants in Azerbaijan and the Sverdlovsk Region, and the Karakum Canal. The Germans restored and expanded the mines of Donbass, the Zaporizhstal and Azovstal plants, heating mains and gas pipelines. In Moscow, they took part in the construction of Moscow State University and the Kurchatov Institute, the Dynamo stadium. The highways Moscow - Kharkov - Simferopol and Moscow - Minsk were built. In Krasnogorsk near Moscow, a school, archive storage, the city Zenit stadium, houses for the factory workers and a new comfortable residential town with a house of culture were built.

From the recollections of early childhood, I was struck by the nearby camp, which contained the Germans who were building the Moscow-Simferopol highway. The motorway was completed and the Germans were deported. And the camp was used as a warehouse for the products of the nearby cannery. The time was hard, there was practically no sweets, and we, children of 5-6 years old, climbed under the barbed wire inside the camp, where wooden barrels with jam were kept. They knocked out a wooden plug in the bottom of the barrel and picked out the jam with a stick. The camp was enclosed in two rows with barbed wire, four meters high, dugouts were dug inside about a hundred meters long. In the center of the dugout there is a passage, on the sides about a meter higher than earthen bunks covered with straw, on which the prisoners slept. It was in such conditions that the builders of the first Soviet "Autobahn" lived. Then the camp was demolished and a microdistrict of the city was built in its place.

The highway itself was also interesting. Not wide, even narrow by modern standards, but with a well-developed infrastructure. I was impressed by the construction of rain outlets (3–10 meters long) from the road into the crossed ravines. It was not a gutter for water: as the height fell, horizontal concrete platforms were erected, connected to each other, and the water fell down in cascades. The entire drain was flanked on the sides by a concrete balustrade painted with lime. I have never seen such an attitude to the road anywhere else.

Driving now in those parts, it is impossible to see such construction beauty - everything has long been demolished with our Russian carelessness.

In large numbers, the prisoners were involved in the work of dismantling the rubble and restoring the cities destroyed by the war - Minsk, Kiev, Stalingrad, Sevastopol, Leningrad, Kharkov, Lugansk and a number of others. They built residential buildings, hospitals, cultural facilities, hotels and urban infrastructure. They also built in cities not affected by the war - Chelyabinsk, Sverdlovsk and Novosibirsk.

Some cities (for example, Minsk) were rebuilt by prisoners by 60%, in Kiev they restored the city center and Khreshchatyk, in Sverdlovsk whole districts were erected by their hands. In 1947, every fifth worker in the construction of ferrous and non-ferrous metallurgy enterprises was captured, in aviation in industry - almost every third, in the construction of power plants - every sixth.

The prisoners were used not only as brute physical force, in the camps of the GUPVI system, qualified specialists were identified and registered in a special way to attract them to work in their specialty. As of October 1945, 581 different specialists of physicists, chemists, engineers, scientists with degrees of doctors and professors were registered in the camps of the GUPVI. Special working conditions were created for specialists by order of the Council of Ministers of the USSR, many of them were transferred from camps and provided with housing near the facilities where they worked, they were paid salaries at the level of Soviet engineers.

In 1947, the USSR, USA and Great Britain decided to repatriate German prisoners of war, and they began to be sent to Germany at their place of residence in the GDR and FRG. This process stretched out until 1950, while prisoners convicted of war crimes were not subject to return. At first, the weakened and sick were sent, then those employed in less important jobs.

In 1955, a decree of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR was adopted on the early release of convicted war criminals. And the last batch of prisoners was handed over to the German authorities in January 1956.

Not all prisoners wanted to return to Germany. Oddly enough, a significant part of them (up to 58 thousand people) expressed a desire to leave for the newly proclaimed Israel, where, with the help of Soviet military instructors, the future Israeli army began to form. And the Germans significantly strengthened it at this stage.
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 04: 37
    +7
    Oddly enough, a significant part of them (up to 58 thousand people) expressed a desire to leave for the newly proclaimed Israel, where the future Israeli army began to form, with the help of Soviet military instructors. And the Germans significantly strengthened it at this stage.
    It's just amazing, these are some kind of wrong "Germans" seem to have been! It seems that Hitler's policy towards the "wrong Germans" is not exactly what we are being told, it was!
    1. Soveticos
      Soveticos April 15 2021 05: 59
      +4
      58 thousand people, Soviet instructors, the supply of weapons, the arrival of Jewish servicemen from other armies and much more - this is one of the main reasons for Israel's brilliant victories over untrained and "wild" Arab tribes.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter April 15 2021 07: 41
        +13
        The article is somewhat controversial, but interesting. I was always amazed at the humanism of the USSR in relation to the prisoners and it seemed strange that they were released only 5 years after the end of the war. In my opinion, they should have been kept for at least 15 years for all the atrocities they committed on the territory of our country.
        1. Proxima
          Proxima April 15 2021 12: 55
          +4
          I remember Artyom Drabkin interviewed former German prisoners of war. As you know, they received a monetary allowance, they could keep them in Sberbank, transfer them to Fatherland, or simply spend them in a store. But some kept their money in the so-called common fund. So this one the prisoner was very much indignant that the common money had seriously depreciated after the Stalinist monetary reform. belay There are no words of course. fool
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter April 15 2021 16: 05
            +4
            Quote: Proxima
            There are no words of course.

            There are words, only obscene ones.!
        2. bubalik
          bubalik April 15 2021 13: 24
          +2
          amazed by the humanism of the USSR in relation to prisoners

          At the end of 1945, the Acting Chief of Osobstroy Radetsky sent a report to the manager of the Kuibyshev Oil Association, Anisimov, in which he said:
          “The experience of working with prisoners of war in Samarskaya Luka has shown that for objective reasons it is impossible to use them productively here, they all do not tolerate frosts well and cannot work at temperatures below -15˚ degrees. Most of the patients are unequivocally disabled. It is not the Germans who are relatively able-bodied, but the Magyars (Hungarians) prisoners of war. "

          ,,, already during the construction of the cracking plant and the reduction of oil development, the above-mentioned places of detention of prisoners in our region were closed, and the Germans were transferred to the south of the country warmer, including the restoration of Stalingrad.
          The construction of the enterprise was completed by Soviet prisoners.
          1. for
            for April 16 2021 03: 54
            +2
            Quote: bubalik
            all of them do not tolerate frost and cannot work at temperatures below -15˚ degrees.

            For some reason, the Crimean Tatars carried them (at the construction of the KNPZ)
        3. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 15 2021 22: 40
          -13%
          Yes, a very interesting opinion. But there is also something else.
          Article Seventy-Five
          When the belligerents conclude reconciliation, they undertake first of all to agree on the conditions regarding the repatriation of prisoners of war.

          And if these conditions could not be included in this agreement, the belligerents should enter into relations on the indicated subject as soon as possible. In all cases, the repatriation of prisoners of war should be carried out as soon as possible after the conclusion of peace.

          If prisoners of war are prosecuted for crimes or acts of a general civil nature, they may be detained until the end of the judicial and investigative procedure and, if necessary, until serving their sentence.

          The same applies to those convicted of crimes or acts of a general civil nature.

          With the consent of the belligerents, commissions may be established to search for dispersed prisoners and to ensure their repatriation.


          There were no prisoners of war in the USSR after 45. There were about 3 million illegally repressed citizens of European countries, primarily Germany and Japan. Naturally, for the USSR this was not something unusual, but abroad even the greatest friends of the USSR found it difficult to pretend that such behavior of the republic of workers and peasants could be considered normal. So even with the living comrade. Stalin began to back down little by little, and during the period of large-scale detente in the mid-50s, they tried to close this issue altogether.
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich April 15 2021 07: 27
      +6
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Oddly enough, a significant part of them (up to 58 thousand people) expressed a desire to leave for the newly proclaimed Israel, where, not without the help of Soviet military instructors, began to form future Israeli army... And the Germans significantly strengthened it at this stage.
      It's just amazing, these are some kind of wrong "Germans" seem to have been!

      is interesting fountainhead such news that the Germans were building the army of Israel.

      Each prisoner was repeatedly interrogated, the NKVD officers collected testimonies from his subordinates, residents of the occupied territories, and if evidence of involvement in crimes was found, he was awaited by a military tribunal's verdict - execution or hard labor.

      From 1943 to 1949, 37 prisoners of war were convicted in the Soviet Union

      only 1% of the total number of prisoners ... So, little evidence was collected ...

      Death rate due to malnutrition, injury and disease during the war and in the early post-war years, especially in the winter of 1945/1946 reached 70%

      some kind of nonsense ...
      The fate of the surrendered 90-strong German group at Stalingrad was lamentable. A huge crowd of emaciated, half-naked and hungry prisoners made winter crossings of several tens of kilometers a day, often spent the night in the open air and ate almost nothing

      and how much days they walked?

      They were very serious about saving the Germans, but some were already doomed and captured already dying
      1. Avior
        Avior April 15 2021 08: 37
        +5
        there is a memoir by an Italian, Corti E. Few returned.
        http://militera.lib.ru/memo/other/corti/index.html
        writes about it like this
        the Russians lined up the rest of the prisoners in columns and drove them to the concentration camp. We walked across the steppe for fourteen days, and during this time only once were we given a small piece of frozen bread. After that, they took us on the train for another eight days. During this time, our escorts did not miss a single opportunity to demonstrate their cruelty. Dozens of prisoners who could no longer walk were shot on the spot, and their corpses were left on the side of the road, thus marking the mournful path of our column. The train journey was by no means easier. So many people were stuffed into the cars that we could only stand. The only food we got daily was a tiny slice of bread. We were not given water at all. It was hellish cold in the carriages, people froze, died from gangrene. The cars were opened only once a day in order to unload the dead, who were thrown right there next to the railway track ... "

        This is the end of December 1942, the Battle of Stalingrad is in full swing, where the Italians also fell under the distribution. It is clear that no one provided them with a taxi, it was not before that at that time. Who would be their shore, who needed it?
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich April 15 2021 09: 00
          +4
          Quote: Avior
          We walked across the steppe for fourteen days

          outright lie-prisoners were located either directly in Stalingrad or in the vicinity:
          The NKVD administration for the Stalingrad region informed Beria about the situation of the Stalingrad prisoners:
          "After the liquidation of the Stalingrad grouping of enemy troops in Stalingrad itself and the nearest large settlements a network of camps was organized to hold prisoners of war officers and soldiers of the German army.


          and to which railway station did you have to go .... 14 days? In 30-degree frost?

          We walked a maximum of 20-30 km to the camp. True, not everyone was able to overcome this distance: during the last 30 days, hunger was the main problem of the Nazis.
          1. Avior
            Avior April 15 2021 09: 03
            +3
            this is the memoir of an Italian actually. As far as I understand, he was captured somewhere in the steppe, and not directly in Stalingrad. The battle was still going on, and the grouping of the Germans was not eliminated, this is 1942.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich April 15 2021 09: 23
              +3
              Quote: Avior
              then the memoirs of an Italian actually.

              actually, I'm talking about them
              Quote: Avior
              As far as I understand, he was captured somewhere in the steppe, and not directly in Stalingrad.

              walk across the steppe naked and hungry 14 days at 30 degrees frost December 1942 and it is impossible to survive
              1. Avior
                Avior April 15 2021 09: 39
                +2
                actually, I'm talking about them

                actually, in December 1942, there were still Germans in Stalingrad.
                and you write about
                "After the liquidation of the Stalingrad group of troops ..."
                It is possible that after the liquidation there were camps in Stalingrad itself.
                yet again
                in Stalingrad itself and the nearest large settlements, a network of camps was organized for the maintenance of prisoners of war

                does not mean that the prisoners ended up only in these camps.
                in the memoirs of an Italian, a particular case is described.
        2. mr.ZinGer
          mr.ZinGer April 15 2021 11: 05
          +5
          I have earned the gratitude of Italy.
          Her people and her history,
          Her literature with language.
          I gave it to the snow. Is free. A whole com.

          The carriage carried prisoners of war,
          Captives on the Don and on the Donets,
          Unfed military men,
          Dreaming of a speedy end

          Humanity by law, by convention
          Not used in this intervention.
          Neither this, nor even this side,
          She was not for a big war.
          No, it was. Bastard and scoundrel
          Echelon leader, creeping bastard,
          Gave for a pair of gold rings
          A bucket of water for the unlucky teplushka.

          And I was in uniform, I was in uniform
          And apparently retained that ardor,
          What is formed by reading Tolstoy
          And Chekhov did not cool down at all,
          And I was from the front and drove to the rear
          And as a simple solution
          I drove a snow woman into the heating house.

          Oh, the Romans are black eyes, longing
          With gratitude, they interfered in half
          And for a long time to fall asleep then disturbed!

          And the woman was taken apart piece by piece.
      2. 210ox
        210ox April 15 2021 09: 05
        +3
        There was a factory in Smolensk. It was called at different times in different ways - the experimental plant KB mechanical engineering, "Centaur". But in everyday life he was called "Buchenwald". There was a prisoner camp.
      3. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid April 18 2021 07: 19
        +1
        ......they were engaged very seriously, but some of them were already doomed and were taken prisoner dying ...
        There was nothing, about which it is written in different places. If the Germans were fed once a day, then their allies of other nationalities who participated were no longer fed.
    3. Professor
      Professor April 15 2021 07: 42
      -14%
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Oddly enough, a significant part of them (up to 58 thousand people) expressed a desire to leave for the newly proclaimed Israel, where the future Israeli army began to form, with the help of Soviet military instructors. And the Germans significantly strengthened it at this stage.
      It's just amazing, these are some kind of wrong "Germans" seem to have been! It seems that Hitler's policy towards the "wrong Germans" is not exactly what we are being told, it was!

      Nothing amazing. Lying allows you to write something else. In fact, there was not a single GERMAN prisoner of war who wanted to move from the USSR to Israel, and there was NO Soviet military instructors from the word "quite". For 70 years, they have not found a single document confirming this, and not even a single name. Moreover, all the Jews who participated in the Second World War who wished to help Israel were kindly taken to the Gulag for" a connection with the bourgeois Zionist ... ".
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 08: 13
        +6
        Quote: Professor
        Lying allows you to write something else.

        Haha, it's funny to see that from you!
        1. Professor
          Professor April 15 2021 08: 33
          -13%
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Quote: Professor
          Lying allows you to write something else.

          Haha, it's funny to see that from you!

          Really funny because I have never been caught in a lie.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 08: 41
            +5
            Quote: Professor
            Really funny because I have never been caught in a lie.
            O yes!
            Quote: Professor
            and there were NO Soviet military instructors from the word "absolutely"

            Israel's special forces were created from scratch. The best officers of the NKVD-MGB took direct part in the creation and training of the commandos (“Stalin's falcons” from the Berkut detachment, the 101st intelligence school and the “C” department of General Sudoplatov), ​​who had experience in operational and sabotage work: Otroshchenko, Korotkov, Vertiporokh and dozens of others.
            As a result, Captain Halperin (born in Vitebsk in 1912) became the founder and first head of the Mossad intelligence, created the Shin Bet public security and counterintelligence service. In the history of Israel and its special services, "the honorary pensioner and faithful heir of Beria", the second person after Ben-Gurion, entered under the name Iser Harel. Smersha officer Livanov founded and led the foreign intelligence service Nativa Bar. He took the Jewish name Nehimia Levanon, under which he went down in the history of Israeli intelligence. Captains Nikolsky, Zaitsev and Malevany "put" the work of the special forces of the Israel Defense Forces, two officers of the Navy (names could not be established)

            Quote: Professor
            Moreover, all the Jews who took part in the Second World War who wished to help Israel were kindly taken to the Gulag for "a connection with the bourgeois Zionist ...".

            Under her, about two hundred Soviet servicemen managed to leave for Israel. Those who did not succeed were not repressed, although most of them were demobilized from the army.

            It is not known for certain how many Soviet troops left for Palestine before and during the War of Independence. According to Israeli sources, 200 thousand Soviet Jews used legal or illegal channels.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 15 2021 09: 05
              -4
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              O yes!

              So.

              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Israel's special forces were created from scratch. The best officers of the NKVD-MGB took direct part in the creation and training of the commandos (“Stalin's falcons” from the Berkut detachment, the 101st intelligence school and the “C” department of General Sudoplatov), ​​who had experience in operational and sabotage work: Otroshchenko, Korotkov, Vertiporokh and dozens of others.
              As a result, Captain Halperin (born in Vitebsk in 1912) became the founder and first head of the Mossad intelligence, created the Shin Bet public security and counterintelligence service. In the history of Israel and its special services, "the honorary pensioner and faithful heir of Beria", the second person after Ben-Gurion, entered under the name Iser Harel. Smersha officer Livanov founded and led the foreign intelligence service Nativa Bar. He took the Jewish name Nehimia Levanon, under which he went down in the history of Israeli intelligence. Captains Nikolsky, Zaitsev and Malevany "put" the work of the special forces of the Israel Defense Forces, two officers of the Navy (names could not be established)

              I have already repeatedly laid out this linden on the shelves with links to documents, photographs and biographies of the people you describe in bold. Aren't you tired of making yourself look silly? Embarrass you again?

              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Under her, about two hundred Soviet servicemen managed to leave for Israel. Those who did not succeed were not repressed, although most of them were demobilized from the army.

              Can names and titles at least ten?

              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              It is not known for certain how many Soviet troops left for Palestine before and during the War of Independence. According to Israeli sources, 200 thousand Soviet Jews used legal or illegal channels.

              Show me these "sources". We have the number of repatriates by year and country of origin in the public domain.

              PS
              In Israel, there is an organization that has been engaged in volunteer service in the IDF since the founding of the state. There is not a single person related to the Tsakhal who passed by this organization. So this organization officially announced that there were never any Soviet volunteers or instructors.
              http://www.mahal.org.il/ru/Pages/default.aspx

              http://www.noar.mod.gov.il/Out%20to%20Israel/Pages/Mahal.aspx
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 09: 15
                +6
                Quote: Professor
                I have already laid out this linden on the shelves here many times with links
                It is enough that in your article on "The Creation of Israel" or whatever it is, you did not mention anything about Jewish terrorist attacks against the British administration and brazenly underestimated the volume of supplies of German captured weapons to the USSR and allies for the IDF.
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 15 2021 09: 31
                  -9
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  It is enough that in your article about "The Creation of Israel" or whatever it is, you did not mention anything about the Jewish terrorist attacks against the British administration.

                  How can you mention something that was not there? There was not a single terrorist attack, but there was a partisan movement against the occupation forces. Learn materiel.

                  GUERRILLA MOVEMENT - armed struggle of volunteers as part of organized armed formations, waged in territory occupied or controlled by the enemy.

                  Terror (lat. terror "fear, horror") - intimidation of political opponents by means of physical violence.

                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  blatantly underestimated the supply of German captured weapons of the USSR and the allies for the IDF.

                  In a strange way, no one has cited other sources for other figures.

                  Was the educational program successful? wink
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 10: 03
                    +7
                    Quote: Professor
                    How can you mention something that was not there? There was not a single terrorist attack, but there was a partisan movement against the occupation forces. Learn materiel.

                    What a waste! And what kind of country was the British occupied that the Jews blew up their administration?
                    Quote: Professor
                    In a strange way, no one has cited other sources for other figures.
                    And why7 It is enough that your numbers are false.
                    1. Professor
                      Professor April 15 2021 10: 05
                      -8
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      What a waste! And what kind of country was the British occupied that the Jews blew up their administration?

                      Is it that bad? The British captured Palestine in 1917 from Osnam.

                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And why7 It is enough that your numbers are false.

                      And which ones are not deceitful? wink
                      1. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 10: 20
                        +5
                        Quote: Professor
                        Is it that bad? The British captured Palestine in 1917 from Osnam.
                        So it was the Jews who staged terrorist attacks in favor of the Ottoman Empire or what?

                        In January 1948 of the year, the first contract was concluded for the supply to Israel from Czechoslovakia of 4500 rifles, 20 machine guns and 5 million rounds.

                        5 February 1948, Moshe Sharett, in an interview with A. Gromyko, asked for help with a weapon. Indeed, the Israelis began selling weapons, mainly through Czechoslovakia.

                        On October 1948, only through Czechoslovakia to Israel was sent:

                        25 fighter bomber Avia S-199
                        61 Supermarine Spitfire Fighter
                        34 500 rifles P-18
                        5 515 machine gun MG 34 with cartridges
                        900 machine guns vz. Xnumx
                        500 pistols vz. Xnumx
                        12 submachine guns ZK-383
                        10 semi-automatic rifles ZK 420
                        500 light machine guns VZ. Xnumx
                        91,500,000 cartridges 7.92 × 57mm Mauser
                        15,000,000 cartridges 9mm Parabellum
                        ~ 1,000,000 other cartridges

                        The Israelis bought the Mauser store rifles of the Czech model 1924 and the German Mauser 98k, the single machine guns MG.34 and MG.42, the machine gun ZB-53 (MG.37t), about 25 thousand rifles, more than 5 thousand manual and single and XN easel machine guns, more than 200 million rounds of ammunition and 54 planes of the Messerschmitt type (S-25 Avia) - totaling 199 million dollars.

                        These weapons were delivered by air and sea, through the Yugoslav port of Split.

                        On 17 on August 1948, welcoming the Soviet envoy, Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion stated that the Israeli army received a significant amount of weapons from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, including artillery, which it had not had at all before [1].
                        And here are your "calculations"
                        The first of ten modified Czechoslovak Messerschmitts, the Avia S-199, was delivered to Israel at a cost of $ 180000 per plane. For comparison, the Americans sold fighters for $ 15000, and bombers for $ 30000 per plane. The Palestinian Air Service purchased in different countries medium-sized C-46 Commando transport aircraft for $ 5000, C-69 Constellation four-engine transport aircraft for $ 15000 apiece, and B-17 heavy bombers for $ 20000. In total, Czechoslovak aircraft made up about 10-15% of the combat strength of the Israeli Air Force in 1948. By the end of 1948, of the 25 S-199 delivered, twelve were lost for various reasons, seven were in various stages of repair, and only six were fully operational.
                        Spits are not observed, so your calculations are nonsense and default.
                      2. Professor
                        Professor April 15 2021 10: 33
                        -13%
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        So it was the Jews who staged terrorist attacks in favor of the Ottoman Empire or what?

                        The Jews did not arrange terrorist attacks at all, a cap. The guerrillas fought against the occupation administration, and not on British soil. Learn materiel.
                        Terror (Latin terror "fear, horror") - intimidation of political opponents by means of physical violence.
                        The British occupation administration was not a political opponent.
                        GUERRILLA MOVEMENT is an armed struggle of volunteers as part of organized armed formations, waged in territory occupied or controlled by the enemy.

                        The British occupation administration was the enemy in the territory it controlled. Not your own territory, mind you.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U

                        On February 5, 1948, Moshe Sharet, in a conversation with A. Gromyko, asked for help with weapons. Indeed, the sale of weapons to the Israelis began, mainly via Czechoslovakia.

                        False. There were no supplies THROUGH Czechoslovakia, and there were supplies from Czechoslovakia itself and not Soviet weapons and at fabulous prices. It is noteworthy that for these supplies the leadership of Czechoslovakia will be shot in the future. It was not mentioned at the trial that the supplies were ordered by the USSR.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        On August 17, 1948, welcoming the Soviet envoy, Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion said that the Israeli army received a significant amount of weapons from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia, including artillery, which it did not have before.

                        Well, what does the USSR have to do with it if Israel did not buy Soviet weapons from the USSR, but the sellers themselves were then shot for this?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Spits are not observed, so your calculations are nonsense and default.

                        What is nonsense? Please underline it in your link to my article. I can easily indicate the official sources from which I drew information. wink
                      3. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 10: 50
                        +6
                        Quote: Professor
                        The British occupation administration was the enemy in the territory it controlled. Not your own territory, mind you.
                        The Jews also did not have their own territory, so a terrorist attack is on the face.

                        Quote: Professor
                        Spits are not observed, so your calculations are nonsense and default.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        25 fighter bomber Avia S-199
                        61 Supermarine Spitfire Fighter

                        Quote: Professor
                        What is nonsense? Please underline it in your link to my article.
                        No Spitfires are mentioned in your article.
                        Quote: Professor
                        There were no supplies THROUGH Czechoslovakia, and there were supplies from Czechoslovakia itself, and not Soviet weapons and at fabulous prices. It is noteworthy that for these supplies the leadership of Czechoslovakia will be shot in the future. It was not mentioned at the trial that the deliveries were ordered by the USSR.
                        Already a lie, there was no talk of Soviet weapons. And there is no need to tell fairy tales about deliveries without the knowledge of the USSR, and what the USSR was not mentioned at the trial, so what, the policy has changed, they blamed not cooperation with the Union, that it was in vain to ruffle its name.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        On August 17, 1948, welcoming the Soviet envoy, Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion announced that the Israeli army had received a significant amount of weapons from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.
                        German weapons could only be supplied with the knowledge of the Union.
                      4. Professor
                        Professor April 15 2021 17: 49
                        -3
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The Jews also did not have their own territory, so a terrorist attack is on the face.

                        The British occupation administration was the enemy in the territory controlled to her. Not your own territory, mind you. Not British. Teach materiel.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Spits are not observed, so your calculations are nonsense and default.

                        F-35 is also not observed.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Already a lie, there was no talk of Soviet weapons. And there is no need to tell fairy tales about deliveries without the knowledge of the USSR, and what the USSR was not mentioned at the trial, so what, the policy has changed, they blamed not cooperation with the Union, that it was in vain to ruffle its name.

                        So we figured it out. No Soviet weapons were supplied, this time.
                        The USSR did not supply any weapons, these are two.
                        Why were the suppliers of weapons shot and why the USSR is not mentioned in the trial records, these are three?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        German weapons only with the knowledge of the Union РјРѕРіР »Ryo supply.

                        Let's link to the document where it is mentioned that the scoop was in the know. Otherwise, it's all your fantasies. And most importantly, why were the Czechs shot for helping Israel if the aid was "carried out with the knowledge of the USSR"? Even the defendants did not remember this before the execution ...
                      5. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 03: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: Professor
                        The British occupation administration was the enemy in the territory it controlled. Not your own territory, mind you. Not British. Learn materiel.
                        Jews committed a terrorist attack against the British administration not being at war with Britain and not being on its territory Don't ignore the facts, because this is a form of lying.


                        Quote: Professor
                        Spits are not observed, so your calculations are nonsense and default.
                        F-35 is also not observed.
                        However, in almost the same text in Wiki, Spitfires are present, and in yours, absolutely the same is absent. The suppression of such a fact, moreover, arrogant and stupid is a form of lie, arrogant and stupid.

                        Quote: Professor
                        So we figured it out. No Soviet weapons were supplied, this time.
                        The USSR did not supply any weapons, these are two.
                        In my comments there is not a word about the supply of SOVIET weapons, the fact that you stubbornly drag them in and expose is one of the forms of lies.


                        Quote: Professor
                        Why were the suppliers of weapons shot and why the USSR is not mentioned in the trial records, these are three?
                        You blatantly ignore this consideration
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        and that the USSR was not mentioned at the trial, and that such, the policy changed, they blamed not cooperation with the Union, that it was in vain to ruffle its name.
                        Once again, all of a sudden you "did not understand" - the satellites of the USSR in their internal proceedings did not mention the name of the USSR, so as not to denigrate their "older brother". Give evidence to the contrary.

                        Quote: Professor
                        Let's link to the document where it is mentioned that the scoop was in the know. Otherwise, it's all your fantasies.
                        I see no evidence that the USSR was not aware.

                        Quote: Professor
                        And most importantly, why were the Czechs shot for helping Israel if the aid was "carried out with the knowledge of the USSR"? Even the defendants did not remember this before the execution ...
                        Did you personally communicate with them, or what? Not only could the protocols be edited as desired, but also the interrogation could be built so that the USSR was not mentioned. No need to play the fool and pretend that this is not a generally accepted practice when investigating "sensitive topics".
                      6. Professor
                        Professor April 16 2021 08: 19
                        -3
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        The Jews committed a terrorist attack against the British administration without being at war with Britain and without being on their territory Do not ignore the facts, because this is a form of lie.

                        How everything started. Struggle for Israel's independence NOT carried out on the territory of Great Britain, and on the territory of Israel controlled by Great Britain. I understand that it’s more fun for you to call resistance terrorism, but that doesn’t fit the definition.
                        Terror (Latin terror "fear, horror") - intimidation of political opponents by means of physical violence.
                        British NOT were political opponents of the word "absolutely".
                        By the way, what did the British themselves call our resistance heroes? wink

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        However, in almost the same text in Wiki, Spitfires are present, and in yours, absolutely the same is absent. The suppression of such a fact, moreover, arrogant and stupid is a form of lie, arrogant and stupid.

                        And also Mirages and Phantoms are not mentioned in my article. Silencement of such a fact, moreover, arrogant and stupid is a form of lie, arrogant and stupid

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In my comments there is not a word about the supply of SOVIET weapons, the fact that you stubbornly drag them in and expose is one of the forms of lies.

                        Nice. So we figured out the supply of weapons to the USSR.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Once again, all of a sudden you "did not understand" - the satellites of the USSR in their internal proceedings did not mention the name of the USSR, so as not to denigrate their "older brother". Give evidence to the contrary.

                        Got it. That is, people who were sentenced to death, for the fact that they independently supplied weapons to the Zionists, did not mention at the trial that they were not guilty and the USSR instructed them to supply weapons ATTENTION !!! "so as not to denigrate your "older brother"?
                        Truth? Was the honor of the scoop for the Czechs accused more important than their own lives? fool

                        But where are the documents from the Soviet archives instructing the Czechs to sell weapons to the Zionists? Oh yes. The archives are still classified. But in the Czech Republic, these archives have long been in the public domain, and OH MIRACLE !!! there are no such documents. Here's a bad luck. fellow

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I see no evidence that the USSR was not I know.

                        How nice. First graders trolling. "Prove that this document was not there."
                        The topic is closed on this and as they say: "I rest my case".

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Did you personally communicate with them, or what? Not only could the protocols be edited as desired, but also interrogation РјРѕРіР »Ryo build so that the USSR is not mentioned. No need to play the fool and pretend that this is not a generally accepted practice when investigating "sensitive topics".

                        Could you? Learn materiel. Start with books on the Slansky Process. There are interrogation protocols and the verdict and memories of the participants in the process. Czech pedants have laid out everything on the shelves.
                        https://radiozurnal.rozhlas.cz/proces-s-rudolfem-slanskym-7208615

                        PS
                        Oh what is that?
                        https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kfar+Masaryk/@32.893194,35.0841911,13.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x151dc9db9c36694f:0x673fd0e3e55cef43!8m2!3d32.891218!4d35.098414
                      7. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 10: 05
                        +1
                        Quote: Professor
                        How everything started. The struggle for Israeli independence was NOT carried out on the territory of Great Britain, but on the territory of Israel controlled by Great Britain.
                        What impudence, no Israel existed at the time of the terrorist attacks, so the Palestinians can be considered partisans.

                        Quote: Professor
                        And also Mirages and Phantoms are not mentioned in my article. Silencement of such a fact, moreover, arrogant and stupid is a form of lie, arrogant and stupid
                        Spitfires were supplied, but in your thoroughly "truthful" article there is not a word about it, and the marasmic mantra about Mirages and Phantoms is not an excuse for the fact of silence.
                        Quote: Professor
                        Nice. So we figured out the supply of weapons to the USSR.
                        And this statement is a lie, I did not write about the supply of weapons from the USSR, I wrote about control and authorization. You are even here, where it is very easy to check what is written is a lie.

                        Quote: Professor
                        Got it. That is, the people who were sentenced to death, for the fact that they independently supplied weapons to the Zionists, did not mention at the trial that they were not guilty and the USSR instructed them to supply weapons ATTENTION !!! "so as not to denigrate your" older brother "?
                        And then it's a lie:
                        Instructors arrived from Moscow to help the Czechoslovak state security. The defendants admitted their guilt. In Czechoslovakia, rallies were held demanding the death penalty .... ... From the confessions of the accused, it also followed that the Israeli government was seeking profitable for itself and predatory for Czechoslovakia trade agreements; organized a secret, contrary to national interests, the export of weapons from the country for the Israeli army (although, according to some information, R. Slansky was the only opponent of the in the late 1940s, the supply of arms from Czechoslovakia to Israel)
                        Why instructors from Moscow, obviously, for what instructions from Moscow are mentioned, too, in order to posthumously shield Slansky.

                        Quote: Professor
                        Czech pedants have laid out everything on the shelves.
                        https://radiozurnal.rozhlas.cz/proces-s-rudolfem-slanskym-7208615
                        What impudence, you might think you were listening to something there, in Czech. Another sign of lies, a link to content that is not available for verification.


                        Quote: Professor
                        Learn materiel. Start with books on the Slansky Process.

                        Quote: Professor
                        PS I do not see even a quotation from the works.


                        Oh what is that?
                        https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kfar+Masaryk/@32.893194,35.0841911,13.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x151dc9db9c36694f:0x673fd0e3e55cef43!8m2!3d32.891218!4d35.098414
                        And what is it? Like this?
                      8. Professor
                        Professor April 16 2021 10: 33
                        -2
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What impudence, no Israel existed at the time of the terrorist attacks, so the Palestinians can be considered partisans.

                        So you say in the British, the Jews in the British-controlled territory were political disagreements? wink
                        By the way, what did the British themselves call our resistance heroes?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Spitfires were supplied, but in your thoroughly "truthful" article there is not a word about it, and the marasmic mantra about Mirages and Phantoms is not an excuse for the fact of silence.

                        And also in my article not a word about the F-16.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And this statement is a lie, I did not write about the supply of weapons from the USSR, I wrote about control and authorization. You are even here, where it is very easy to check what is written is a lie.

                        So I say: we have dealt with the supply of weapons to the USSR. good

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Why instructors from Moscow, obviously, for which instructions from Moscow are mentioned, too, in order to posthumously shield Slansky.

                        "obvious"? Highly likely? But you are, however, a dreamer. Will there be evidence? wink

                        Got it. That is, the people who were sentenced to death, for the fact that they independently supplied weapons to the Zionists, did not mention at the trial that they were not guilty and the USSR instructed them to supply weapons ATTENTION !!! "so as not to denigrate your" older brother "?
                        Truth? Was the honor of the scoop for the Czechs accused more important than their own lives? fool

                        But where are the documents from the Soviet archives instructing the Czechs to sell weapons to the Zionists? Oh yes. The archives are still classified. But in the Czech Republic, these archives have long been in the public domain, and OH MIRACLE !!! there are no such documents. Here's a bad luck.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What impudence, you might think you were listening to something there, in Czech. Another sign of lies, a link to content that is not available for verification.

                        Do you call it arrogance that YOU do not speak foreign languages? This is rather ignorance than arrogance. Take a dictionary, open the transcripts and go ... look for evidence and material evidence. Until they are all your statements are FANTASY and Wishlist.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And what is it? Like this?

                        You don't speak English either? It is also written there in English. fool

                        So, I am waiting for you to prove your words. Links to archives, monographs and scientific articles are accepted. "could", "obviously" and your other conclusions with fantasies are not accepted. hi
                      9. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 11: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Professor
                        So you say in the British, the Jews in the British-controlled territory had political differences?
                        Separatists acting with terrorist methods are terrorists. Without any political demands.

                        Quote: Professor
                        By the way, what did the British themselves call our resistance heroes?
                        What are yours? Jewish, no idea. Soviet, so what do you have to do with them.
                        Quote: Professor
                        And also in my article not a word about the F-16.
                        "Spits" were in the supply, and the F-16 was not in nature, but keep repeating the marasmic mantra ignoring the facts, because it undoubtedly confirms your "truthfulness".


                        Quote: Professor
                        So I say: we have dealt with the supply of weapons to the USSR.

                        Bring my words about the supply of weapons to the USSR and from the USSR, otherwise this is a cheap trick of demagoguery, to invent it yourself and expose it yourself.

                        Quote: Professor
                        "obvious"? Highly likely? But you are, however, a dreamer. Will there be evidence?
                        Well, not obvious, so not obvious, but this is undeniable:

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Instructors arrived from Moscow to help the Czechoslovak state security. .... ..... (although, according to some reports, R. Slansky was the only opponent of the arms deliveries from Czechoslovakia to Israel, made on instructions from Moscow in the late 1940s)
                        and you seem to have nothing to say.

                        Quote: Professor
                        Do you call it arrogance that YOU do not speak foreign languages? This is rather ignorance than arrogance. Take a dictionary, open the transcripts and go ... look for evidence and material evidence.
                        I do not see your analysis of these transcripts once, and I do not see an answer to this claim:
                        Quote: Professor
                        you might think you were listening to something there, in Czech

                        Do you speak Czech and have you listened to these recordings? Obviously not.

                        Quote: Professor
                        Until they are all your statements are FANTASY and Wishlist.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Learn materiel. Start with books on the Slansky Process.

                        While there is no link to the mentioned book, even in English, what faith do you have.

                        But in the Jewish Wiki there is such
                        The Slansky trial was organized along the lines of the Stalinist trials of the 1930s. in the Soviet Union, on the personal instructions of I. Stalin and under the direct control of the Soviet secret services, whose emissaries, under the guise of advisers, were introduced into all structures of party and state power.
                        (according to some information, R. Slansky was the only opponent of the arms deliveries from Czechoslovakia to Israel, made on instructions from Moscow in the late 1940s);
                        http://ejwiki.info/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%86%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%81_%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE
                        https://eleven.co.il/diaspora/judeophobia-anti-semitism/13836/



                        Well, this is a wonderful discovery:
                        “There is a widespread misconception about the Slansky trial that we have known everything or almost everything for a long time. A serious problem is the fact that no court records have survived. The official transcript is gone. Now, with the advent of the film, we can look into the eyes of the devil. "
                        He reveals your nonsense about the protocols and interrogations.
                        Quote: Professor
                        There are interrogation protocols and the verdict and memories of the participants in the process. Czech pedants have laid out everything on the shelves.



                        Quote: Professor
                        You don't speak English either? In the same place it is written in English
                        Is there a revelation written there? You are foolish, then do not work, then that some kind of building on the map whose name there is called this is what is the proof?
                      10. Professor
                        Professor April 16 2021 14: 12
                        -2
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Separatists acting with terrorist methods are terrorists. Without any political demands.

                        Separatists? Yes, you are not at all in the subject. The Jews did not make any separate demands and did not intend to secede from the Empire for the simple reason that Palestine was not part of the Empire. It wasn't even a colony. Learn materiel.
                        What court and when recognized our heroes as "terrorists"? Link to the studio.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        and you seem to have nothing to say.

                        I have already said and I will repeat it for the last time. Links to documents WHERE?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        What are yours? Jewish, no idea. Soviet, so what do you have to do with them.

                        That is, they were not called terrorists and you invented it yourself? I thought so.
                        Well, I have at least the same attitude to Soviet heroes as you do.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        "Spits" were in the supply, and the F-16 was not in nature, but keep repeating the marasmic mantra ignoring the facts, because it undoubtedly confirms your "truthfulness".

                        In my article there is no mention of the F-15 either.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        I do not see your analysis of these transcripts once, and I do not see an answer to this claim:

                        I don’t need it. You argued that the USSR was in the subject to prove it to you, CEP. I'm waiting for proof.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Do you speak Czech and have you listened to these recordings? Obviously not.

                        Again "obvious"? Once again, your fantasies are not interesting to me.

                        I am fluent in English and have read the transcripts in English. Not a word about the USSR is there. None of those sentenced to death mentioned the USSR.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        While there is no link to the mentioned book, even in English, what faith do you have.

                        Do you want links? I have them. I'll post it right after you.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        But in the Jewish Wiki there is such

                        So what? There is not a word here that the USSR was involved in the supply of weapons to Israel.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Well, this is a wonderful discovery:

                        I gave you a link to the Czech site. There it is written in black and white when the protocols were found and where they were before. Can you read?

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        He reveals your nonsense about the protocols and interrogations.

                        Have you already read the link I posted or are you fantasizing again? wink

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Is there a revelation written there? You are foolish, then do not work, then that some kind of building on the map whose name there is called this is what is the proof?

                        The ice has broken. Now that you know whose name the kibbutz was named, it shouldn't be difficult for you to find out why. No, though. I'm wrong. You can't do it.

                        So, I am waiting for you to prove your words. Links to archives, monographs and scientific articles are accepted. "could", "obviously" and your other conclusions with fantasies are not accepted.
                      11. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 17: 15
                        +2
                        Quote: Professor
                        Separatists? Yes, you are not at all in the subject. The Jews did not make any separate demands and did not intend to secede from the Empire for the simple reason that Palestine was not part of the Empire.
                        There is no need to lie, the Jews carried out terrorist attacks with the aim of
                        The use of terrorist methods against the Arabs and the British authorities of the Irgun and Lehi organizations was explained by the need to fight the Arab terror, pressure on the UK in order that it lift restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine in view of the mass extermination of Jews in Europe [unspecified 3399 days]; and creation of an independent Jewish state on the territory of the British Mandate in Palestine.
                        You are lying that the Jews did not achieve political goals by terrorist attacks, you are lying in almost everything.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Instructors arrived from Moscow to help the Czechoslovak state security. .... ..... (although, according to some reports, R. Slansky was the only opponent of the arms deliveries from Czechoslovakia to Israel, made on instructions from Moscow in the late 1940s)
                        and you seem to have nothing to say.
                        That's all you can tell for the facts.
                        Quote: Professor
                        I have already said and I will repeat it for the last time. Links to documents WHERE?


                        Quote: Professor
                        That is, they were not called terrorists and you invented it yourself? I thought so.
                        It doesn't matter who you think they are, the fact that you did not mention them in your article at all, either as partisans or as terrorists. And this is a form of lying. As with the Spitfires

                        Quote: Professor
                        I am fluent in English and have read the transcripts in English. Not a word about the USSR is there. None of those sentenced to death mentioned the USSR.
                        What a fine fellow you are, I just don't see the links, but it's a pity, it reveals you as a liar even more.

                        Quote: Professor
                        So what? There is not a word here that the USSR was involved in the supply of weapons to Israel.
                        Well, this is already quite pathetic.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        R. Slansky was the only enemy of those made on orders from Moscow in the late 1940s. arms supplies from Czechoslovakia to Israel

                        From the spring of 1948, supplies to Israel were carried out through Czechoslovakia Soviet military equipment, weapons and ammunition; these supplies were one of the most important factors that determined the outcome of the War of Independence.

                        https://eleven.co.il/diaspora/regions-and-countries/14683/
                        The USSR became the first great power to recognize the State of Israel de jure; the Soviet leadership organized (via Czechoslovakia) supplying the Haganah and then the Israel Defense Forces weapons, including heavy weapons, up to combat aircraft, and ammunition (these supplies became an important factor in the victory of the Israeli armed forces in the War of Independence), provided the newly created Jewish state with economic assistance (through Poland) and agreed to the repatriation to Israel of tens of thousands of Jews from the countries of the communist bloc (but not from the USSR itself)

                        https://eleven.co.il/jews-of-russia/history-in-ussr/15422/
                        Your lies are already downright stupid, and these
                        Quote: Professor
                        Do you want links? I have them. I'll post it right after you.
                        Just ridiculous.
                      12. Professor
                        Professor April 16 2021 17: 31
                        -2
                        The last time has already been. So, I am waiting for you to prove your words. Links to archives, monographs and scientific articles are accepted. "could", "obviously" and your other conclusions with fantasies are not accepted. The absence of links is counted as a drain.
                      13. The comment was deleted.
                      14. Professor
                        Professor April 16 2021 17: 45
                        -2
                        The drain is accepted. There is not a single link to archives, monographs and scientific articles which would indicate that Czechoslovakia supplied weapons to Israel at the behest, detective, request or order of the USSR. The topic is closed. hi
                      15. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 17: 46
                        +1
                        Quote: Professor
                        The drain is accepted. There is not a single link to archives, monographs and scientific articles which would indicate that Czechoslovakia supplied weapons to Israel at the behest, detective, request or order of the USSR. The topic is closed.
                        Ahaha, where your links with proof to the contrary, ridiculous you trololo.
                      16. Professor
                        Professor April 16 2021 17: 48
                        -2
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Ahaha where are your links from proof to the contrary, you ridiculous trololo.

                      17. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 17: 49
                        +1
                        Yursky looks at you as Shura Balaganov.
                      18. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U April 16 2021 17: 53
                        +1
                        Oh yes, do not care about Lanskoy and others, with the task of proving that you are a liar and a trololo, I quite coped.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
  2. clerk
    clerk April 16 2021 10: 20
    +1
    But where are the documents from the Soviet archives instructing the Czechs to sell weapons to the Zionists? Oh yes. The archives are still classified. But in the Czech Republic, these archives have long been in the public domain, and OH MIRACLE !!! there are no such documents. Here's a bad luck. ...
    Of course there will be no documents. Because they are meaningless in such a matter (Czechoslovakia is a formally independent state). But answer a simple question - who at that time was the head of Czechoslovakia and could the leadership of Czechoslovakia conduct an independent foreign policy without coordination with the USSR?
  3. Professor
    Professor April 16 2021 14: 27
    -1
    Quote: clerk
    But where are the documents from the Soviet archives instructing the Czechs to sell weapons to the Zionists? Oh yes. The archives are still classified. But in the Czech Republic, these archives have long been in the public domain, and OH MIRACLE !!! there are no such documents. Here's a bad luck. ...
    Of course there will be no documents. Because they are meaningless in such a matter (Czechoslovakia is a formally independent state). But answer a simple question - who at that time was the head of Czechoslovakia and could the leadership of Czechoslovakia conduct an independent foreign policy without coordination with the USSR?

    There will be no documents because they never existed in nature. The USSR did not give instructions to Czechoslovakia to supply weapons to Israel, and even more so "did not supply weapons to Israel through Czechoslovakia."

    Could Czechoslovakia pursue an independent policy? Until 1952, she could and did. And as we see on the example of the Slansky trial, she paid for it. The leadership of Czechoslovakia was shot for this. I posted the links above. In general, the Czechs have a lot of material on this topic.
    hi In the late 60s, Czechoslovakia again tried to pursue an independent policy. We also know how it ended.

    Why did the Czechs help Israel? It was banal to make money, although there was an element of sympathy for Israel. By the way, Israel responded with mutual sympathy and still remembers the good. No wonder I posted the link above to Kfar Masaryk.

    The Czechs then sold weapons to both Jews and Arabs. money doesn't smell. And they sold weapons at fabulous prices. The same Spitfires were sold for $ 23,000 apiece. Not real money at that time, but we are grateful to the Czechs for that too.
  4. clerk
    clerk April 17 2021 16: 16
    +2
    ... There will be no documents because they never existed in nature. The USSR did not give instructions to Czechoslovakia to supply weapons to Israel
    The USSR gave its consent (of course, not in the form of a written permission) and you know this perfectly well, but you are rubbing us Israeli propaganda for internal use. By the way, the position is utterly ungrateful and rotten, because ..... “And he digs his own tunnel of impudent Jewish curiosity under the monument of our glorious history until its foundation, solidly built of all nonsense and inventions, falls on his head. " (from) laughing
    ... Could Czechoslovakia pursue an independent policy? Until 1952, she could and did. And as we see on the example of the Slansky trial, she paid for it. The leadership of Czechoslovakia was shot for this.
    Clement Gottwald in 1945-1953 chairman of the CPC, in 1945-1946 deputy prime minister, 1946-1948 prime minister of the government of Czechoslovakia (government of the National Front), in 1948-1953 President of Czechoslovakia.
    In February 1948, events took place, as a result of which the communists came to power, and the parliament adopted a new constitution three months later (the so-called "Constitution of May 9"). President Benes refused to sign it and resigned on June 7, 1948 (he died 3 months later). On June 14, 1948, the National Assembly elected Clement Gottwald President of Czechoslovakia. A consistent supporter of Stalin, Gottwald led the nationalization of the country's enterprises and the collectivization of agriculture.
    Since among the members of the government there were opponents of the alliance with the Soviet Union, Gottwald removed them from power: first non-communists, and later a number of senior members of the Communist Party, among whom were the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China Rudolf Slansky, Foreign Minister Vladimir Clementis and the head of Slovakia Gustav Husak.
    By the way, Israel responded with mutual sympathy and still remembers the good. No wonder I posted the link above to Kfar Masaryk.
    ... Masaryk died in March 1948, two months before Israel's independence, after which the war went on for over a year and communist Czechoslovakia supplied Israel with weapons. But the internal Israeli propaganda reduced everything to the personality of Masaryk. That is, you even have a feeling of gratitude castrated for the sake of ideology. You piglets are ungrateful.
  5. Professor
    Professor April 17 2021 17: 27
    -3
    Quote: clerk
    The USSR gave its consent (of course, not in the form of a written permission) and you know this perfectly well, but you are rubbing us Israeli propaganda for internal use.

    There was no agreement, there is not a single fact confirming this "consent".

    Against the backdrop of rampant anti-Semitism within the country, the Soviet leadership conducted subversive activities against the newly proclaimed State of Israel, which repulsed the aggression of the many times superior forces of the Arab states.

    One of the main targets of the Soviet "fighters against Zionism" was Czechoslovakia, from where the supply of weapons to Israel came. The Soviet secret services organized a real hunt for Czechoslovak citizens who collaborated with the "Zionist enemy."

    Already in March 1948, Czechoslovakian Foreign Minister Jan Masaryk allegedly committed suicide, a loyal friend of Israel who did a lot to conclude an agreement on the supply of weapons - according to the then official version, he crashed in the fall, falling out of the window of his residence in Prague.

    In recent years, after the liquidation of the USSR, a new investigation was carried out into the mysterious death of the Czechoslovak minister. It turned out that this was a murder organized by the counterintelligence department of the Central Group of Soviet Forces. The murderer was a junior operative of the USSR Ministry of State Security, a certain Bondarenko.

    Punitive actions in Czechoslovakia were carried out by Soviet officers of the USSR Ministry of State Security. In 1949, a whole brigade of these shoulder masters was sent from Moscow to Prague. Among them it is worth mentioning the officers of the Soviet state security organs, Colonel Likhachev (shot in 1954) Makarov, Esikov, Beschastnov, Borisov, Gromov, Morozov, Chernov, Smirnov, Galkin, Petukhov, Boyarsky ...

    From July 14, 1950, according to the decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, the staff of the senior adviser of the USSR Ministry of State Security was constantly operating under the Ministry of National Security of the ChSR. Soviet representatives played an active role in the unfolding purge of the party and state apparatus of Czechoslovakia.


    Quote: clerk
    By the way, the position is utterly ungrateful and rotten, because ...

    There is nothing to thank the USSR for. Thank you very much to Czechoslovakia.

    Quote: clerk
    ... Masaryk died in March 1948, two months before Israel's independence, after which the war went on for over a year and communist Czechoslovakia supplied Israel with weapons. But the internal Israeli propaganda reduced everything to the personality of Masaryk. That is, you even have a feeling of gratitude castrated for the sake of ideology. You piglets are ungrateful.

    He did not die, but was killed by the hands of Moscow.
    The bloody trail of Soviet agents continued on. Their victim was the former commander of the Czech brigade, Lieutenant Colonel Antonin Sohor. After returning from Israel to Czechoslovakia, he clearly realized that the Soviet special services were going to crack down on him for cooperation with the "Zionist enemy." The plane on which he was returning from Israel was attacked and damaged by an unknown fighter. His eldest son Ludwik recalled how his father never took a step without a loaded weapon and often told his wife that they wanted to kill him. The car of Lieutenant Colonel Antonin Sokhor was fired upon twice by unknown persons.

    On the night of August 15-16, 1950, a truck of an airborne unit crashed into the headquarters "Skoda" of Lieutenant Colonel Antonin Sokhor. According to the official version, the lieutenant colonel was sitting in the passenger seat on the right, his driver tried to avoid a collision, but the truck hit exactly where Sokhor was sitting. It seems that they tried to poison him - before the funeral there was an order to cremate his body - possibly to hide traces of the use of poisonous poisons.

    A number of senior officers of the Czechoslovak army were arrested and convicted. The Chief of the General Staff of the Czechoslovak Army, General Shimon Drgach, who did a lot to strengthen the Czechoslovak-Israeli military cooperation, was arrested, demoted, deprived of military awards and sentenced to 24 years of hard labor.

    Initially, the activities of Soviet agents were anti-Semitic, anti-Israeli. It was the ties of Czechoslovakia with Israel that caused the bloody massacres of the Czechs who supported Israel.

    One of the Soviet "advisers" Lieutenant Colonel Boyarsky bluntly stated
    "Our main enemy is international Zionism and its spy organizations."

    We are very grateful. Czechoslovakia.
  6. Professor
    Professor April 17 2021 17: 29
    -3
    During interrogation under the torture of one of the arrested, the MGB investigator Major Smola told his suspect directly: “We will be able to destroy you and your lousy race! Not everything Hitler did was good, but he dealt with the Jews perfectly. It is a pity that not all of them ended up in the gas chambers, many escaped. But what he did not complete, we will complete ... Ten meters underground, this is where we will drive you - you and your lousy brat! "

    The culmination of the anti-Semitic and anti-Israel campaign in Czechoslovakia, organized by Soviet agents, was the so-called "Slansky case", named after the chief of the accused, the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, the Jew Rudolf Slansky. Of the 14 leaders of Czechoslovakia accused in this trial, 11 were Jews.

    In the report of the commission of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Ukraine, which in 1968 was engaged in the rehabilitation of political prisoners, it was noted: “... the cruelty of interrogations has reached the highest degree. On the advice and personal extraordinary activity of Soviet advisers, people were subjected to continuous interrogations, which were accompanied by severe beatings. Those under investigation were tortured with hunger, tortured with thirst ... "

    In the Soviet press, the accused in the Slansky case were called “toads by a clean spring” who “dreamed of turning Czechoslovakia into a cosmopolitan Wall Street domain, ruled by American monopolies, bourgeois nationalists, Zionists, along with all kinds of rabble mired in crimes.” During the Slansky trial, the State of Israel became the object of fierce attacks and accusations.

    Selling Czechoslovak weapons to Israel was seen as a grave crime.

    The indictment, prepared by Stalin's investigators on the basis of testimony beaten out under torture, was the Soviet edition of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion":
    the government of Israel, having established already in 1948 through its official representatives in the capital of Czechoslovakia, secret criminal ties with R. Slansky and other accused, allegedly systematically interfered in the internal affairs of Czechoslovakia, sought profitable for itself and predatory for Czechoslovakia trade agreements;
    organized a secret, contrary to national interests, the export of weapons from the country for the Israeli army,
    economically weakened Czechoslovakia through the illegal mass emigration of Jews to Israel, who exported huge material and cultural values ​​from the country by criminal means, etc.

    The court held in Prague on November 20-27, 1952, found all 14 persons involved in this case guilty of committing the crimes incriminated to them (high treason, the issuance of military secrets, subversive activities, economic sabotage and sabotage, attempts on the life of party and state leaders, etc. n.), 11 of them were sentenced to death, and three to life imprisonment.

    The convicts were hanged on December 3, 1952, their bodies were burned, their ashes were scattered in the wind. They deprived of citizenship, confiscated property.

    Today in Russia propaganda falsifications about the alleged assistance of the USSR in the creation of Israel have become widespread. The facts of the anti-Israeli activities of the Soviet agents in Czechoslovakia indicate the opposite - the USSR was initially hostile to Israel and already from the beginning of 1948, two months before the proclamation of the Jewish State, began active subversive activities, trying to eliminate the Czechoslovak channel of arms supply to Israel.

    Already soon, from the beginning of the 50s, the USSR headed for direct confrontation with Israel, sending its military advisers and weapons to hostile Arab countries.

    https://shaon.livejournal.com/297008.html
  7. clerk
    clerk April 17 2021 20: 17
    +1
    The facts of the anti-Israeli activities of the Soviet agents in Czechoslovakia indicate the opposite - the USSR was initially hostile to Israel and already from the beginning of 1948, two months before the proclamation of the Jewish state, began active subversive activities, trying to eliminate the Czechoslovak channel of supplying weapons to Israel ..
    In Russia, such a position is called - "Even if you look in your eyes - everything is God's dew" (c). Do you sound like a historian? Then check out the results of the "active anti-Israeli subversive activities" of the USSR in Czechoslovakia, led by the communist-Stalinist since June 1948: ..... "In January 1948, the first contract was signed for the supply of 4500 rifles, 20 machine guns and 5 million cartridges.
    5 February 1948, Moshe Sharett, in an interview with A. Gromyko, asked for help with a weapon. Indeed, the Israelis began selling weapons, mainly through Czechoslovakia.
    On October 1948, only through Czechoslovakia to Israel was sent:
    25 Avia S-199 fighter-bombers
    61 Supermarine Spitfire Fighter
    34 500 rifles P-18
    5 515 machine gun MG 34 with cartridges
    900 machine guns vz. Xnumx
    500 pistols vz. Xnumx
    12 submachine guns ZK-383
    10 semi-automatic rifles ZK 420
    500 light machine guns VZ. Xnumx
    91,500,000 cartridges 7.92 × 57mm Mauser
    15,000,000 cartridges 9mm Parabellum
    ~ 1,000,000 other cartridges "(c).
  8. Professor
    Professor April 18 2021 06: 21
    -2
    Yes Yes. All this was put by Czechoslovakia at its own peril and risk, and for this it suffered. These are the FACTS. The rest is "Highly likely". hi
  9. clerk
    clerk April 18 2021 08: 52
    0
    .Yes Yes. All this was put by Czechoslovakia at its own peril and risk, and for this it suffered. These are the FACTS. The rest is "Highly likely"
    In your post, the FACT is only that the deliveries have begun (large-scale - after February 5, 1948 Moshe Sharet in a conversation with A. Gromyko asked for help with weapons). The chatter about “your own fear and risk” and “suffered for it” is only your pseudo-historical inventions, which do not even reach the level of “Highly likely”.
  10. Professor
    Professor April 18 2021 10: 49
    -1
    Quote: clerk
    .Yes Yes. All this was put by Czechoslovakia at its own peril and risk, and for this it suffered. These are the FACTS. The rest is "Highly likely"
    In your post, the FACT is only that the deliveries have begun (large-scale - after February 5, 1948 Moshe Sharet in a conversation with A. Gromyko asked for help with weapons). The chatter about “your own fear and risk” and “suffered for it” is only your pseudo-historical inventions, which do not even reach the level of “Highly likely”.

    I am waiting for documents instructing Czechoslovakia to help Israel.
  11. clerk
    clerk April 18 2021 16: 47
    0
    ... I am waiting for documents instructing Czechoslovakia to help Israel.
    Wait. Propagandists need pieces of paper (such as fakes about the Katyn massacre). ... Serious historians, in the absence of documents, operate with a combination of factors.
  12. Professor
    Professor April 18 2021 18: 28
    -4
    Quote: clerk
    ... I am waiting for documents instructing Czechoslovakia to help Israel.
    Wait. Propagandists need pieces of paper (such as fakes about the Katyn massacre). ... Serious historians, in the absence of documents, operate with a combination of factors.

    And there are no facts either. No one. Only "maybe". And it would seem that it is easier than archives, testimonies, photo materials? Everything was written in the scoop and everything was counted to the last person, but here is a blank spot? It doesn't work that way. Here is a sample document. Pay attention to what details then everything was painted.

    document No. 4.57
    Summary of the head of the Department of Special Settlements of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR V.V. Shiyan on the progress of Operation South

    08.07.1949

    Top secret

    Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs of the USSR

    Lieutenant General Comrade RYASNOM V.V.

    According to the Deputy Head of the Department of Special Settlements of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, comrade LYUTO, who is in Chisinau, at 14:8. On July 10, a total of 958 families - 32 people were loaded into the wagons of the deportees, including: men - 971, women - 8622 and children under 13 - 127.

    For 14 hours, 21 echelons were sent with the number of evicted 8322 families - 24 681 people, including: men - 6433, women - 9778, children - 8470.

    There is a significant shortfall against the number of evicted people planned according to the plan.

    On July 7, a group escape of 11 people was allowed from the train. evicted, 6 of them were detained. The other 5 are wanted. The escape was due to the negligence of the convoy.

    In addition, one 18-year-old evict escaped from the carriage hatch.

    Head of the Department of Special Settlements of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs

    Colonel SHIYAN

    July 8 1949 city

    No. 38 / 1-7254

    At the bottom of the litter: "According to the plan 13 008 families - 45 537 people."

    GARF. F. R-9479. Op. 1.D. 476.L. 128. Original.

    First published: V.I. Pasat Difficult pages of the history of Moldova: 1940-1950s. M .: Terra, 1994. S. 454. No. 40.
  13. zenion
    zenion 4 June 2021 23: 54
    0
    At the end of the summer of 1948, there were "volunteers" from the town who were fulfilling the government's request. Two did not return. Only Nathan Inkateshter returned, who was an artilleryman and during the war was a captain and commander of an anti-tank artillery battalion. He returned, sometime in 1951, or 1952 without his right leg. Was evil as hell. During the war, none of us remained alive, and I passed with a slight wound from the first day of the war to the last, and returned from Israel without a leg. In 1989, he left for the United States with his family of son and daughter and died a few years later. And here they write that the USSR did not help Israel. Of course, not only three of them were selected there, there were many officers of specialists from different types of troops. Two who did not return, one pilot and one tanker. A German accordion remained in the family from the tanker.
  14. clerk
    clerk April 17 2021 20: 03
    +2
    ... There was no agreement, there is not a single fact confirming this "consent".
    If the conscience is circumcised, then the facts can be ignored? However, this is the lyrics .... What will personally be the fact for you, confirming that the USSR allowed Czechoslovakia to supply weapons to Israel?
    ... There is nothing to thank the USSR for. Thank you very much to Czechoslovakia.
    Mankurt. Pronounced.
    ... Initially, the activities of Soviet agents were anti-Semitic, anti-Israeli. It was the ties of Czechoslovakia with Israel that caused the bloody massacres of the Czechs who supported Israel
    Cheap propaganda, not confirmed by anything. We would be ashamed to spread such trash.
  15. Professor
    Professor April 18 2021 06: 28
    -3
    Quote: clerk
    If the conscience is circumcised, then the facts can be ignored? However, this is the lyrics .... What will personally be the fact for you, confirming that the USSR allowed Czechoslovakia to supply weapons to Israel?

    Document. The decision of the Politburo, for example.

    Quote: clerk
    Mankurt. Pronounced.

    And yet we will continue to thank Czechoslovakia regardless of your opinion.

    Quote: clerk
    Cheap propaganda, not confirmed by anything. We would be ashamed to spread such trash.

    Of course, agitation, because even a schoolchild knows that there was no state anti-Semitism in the USSR and the USSR supported the Zionists in every possible way. wassat It's just that we "not grateful piglets" did not understand that all this was for our good.
  16. clerk
    clerk April 18 2021 08: 32
    +1
    ... What for you personally will be a fact confirming that the USSR allowed Czechoslovakia to supply weapons to Israel?

    Document. The decision of the Politburo, for example.
    And what, in your opinion, should be in this document - "The Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) allows Czechoslovakia to sell weapons to unrecognized Israel for the time being" Or what? Do you generally understand that state documents cannot contradict the laws of the state and, in general, how the mechanism of Soviet power worked?
    .Mancourt. Pronounced.

    And yet we will continue to thank Czechoslovakia regardless of your opinion.
    Czechoslovakia undoubtedly deserves Israel's gratitude. But to pretend that the USSR does not deserve this gratitude (for help in the War of 1947-48) is pure deceitful cheap politicking.
    ... Cheap propaganda, not confirmed by anything. We would be ashamed to spread such trash.

    Of course, agitation, because even a schoolchild knows that there was no state anti-Semitism in the USSR and the USSR supported the Zionists in every possible way. wassat It's just that we "are not grateful pigs" did not understand that all this was for our benefit
    Again, instead of historical research - clumsy lies and rigging .. State anti-Semitism in the USSR unfolded in November 1948 - after the help of Israel with weapons and specialists was provided through Czechoslovakia with the participation of the USSR. So you are really ungrateful and shameless pigs.
  17. Professor
    Professor April 18 2021 10: 40
    -1
    Quote: clerk
    And what, in your opinion, should be in this document - "The Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) allows Czechoslovakia to sell weapons to unrecognized Israel for the time being" Or what? Do you generally understand that state documents cannot contradict the laws of the state and, in general, how the mechanism of Soviet power worked?

    I understand, but do you understand that without a piece of paper, no one in the USSR would lift a finger?
    Document No. 1
    The decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) to close the JAC
    20.11.1948

    Strictly secret

    Special folder

    81. About the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee

    To approve the following decision of the Bureau of the Council of Ministers of the USSR:

    “The Bureau of the Council of Ministers of the USSR instructs the Ministry of State Security of the USSR to immediately dissolve the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, since, as the facts show, this Committee is the center of anti-Soviet propaganda and regularly supplies anti-Soviet information to foreign intelligence agencies.

    In accordance with this, the press organs of this Committee should be closed and the files of the Committee should be withdrawn. Don't arrest anyone yet.

    Secretary of the Central Committee


    Quote: clerk
    Czechoslovakia undoubtedly deserves Israel's gratitude. But to pretend that the USSR does not deserve this gratitude (for help in the War of 1947-48) is pure deceitful cheap politicking.

    When the facts of the USSR's aid to Israel in the War of Independence come to light, we will certainly thank you. Do not you urge to thank for the state anti-Semitism? For supplying arms to the Arabs? Or for the closure of the EAK? Maybe for a ban on emigration to Israel?

    Quote: clerk
    Again, instead of historical research - clumsy lies and rigging .. State anti-Semitism in the USSR unfolded in November 1948 - after the help of Israel with weapons and specialists was provided through Czechoslovakia with the participation of the USSR. So you are really ungrateful and shameless pigs.

    Real help to the Zionists in the creation of Israel. Thanks to the USSR.
    .
    "Through Czechoslovakia with the participation of the USSR, aid was provided to Israel with weapons and specialists"? There is not a single document confirming this, not a single evidence, not a single fact.
  18. clerk
    clerk April 18 2021 16: 54
    0
    Do you generally understand that state documents cannot contradict the laws of the state and, in general, how the mechanism of Soviet power worked?

    I understand, but you understand that without a piece of paper, no one in the USSR would lift a finger?
    Stupid post-perestroika myth. A piece of paper was only required if the question was about bureaucracy, resources, or reports. Political or administrative influence was not formalized by paper ("There is an opinion that .....").
    Document No. 1
    The decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) to close the JAC
    20.11.1948

    Strictly secret

    Special folder

    81. About the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee

    To approve the following decision of the Bureau of the Council of Ministers of the USSR:

    “The Bureau of the Council of Ministers of the USSR instructs the Ministry of State Security of the USSR to immediately dissolve the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee,
    A vivid example, when the political power of the USSR formalizes its decision in accordance with the laws of the USSR by ordering the executive power .. It is impossible to present the same order to the Politburo not to the Council of Ministers of the USSR, but to the President (Prime Minister) of Czechoslovakia. Actually, I wrote to you about this.
    ... through Czechoslovakia, with the participation of the USSR, aid was provided to Israel with weapons and specialists? ”There is not a single document confirming this, not a single evidence, not a single fact.
    On the same thread, your colleague provided data.
  19. Professor
    Professor April 18 2021 18: 34
    -4
    Quote: clerk
    Stupid post-perestroika myth. A piece of paper was only required if the question was about bureaucracy, resources, or reports. Political or administrative influence was not formalized by paper ("There is an opinion that .....").

    Not. Everything was painted to the nails. Look at the declassified archives of the union republics.

    Quote: clerk
    A vivid example, when the political power of the USSR formalizes its decision in accordance with the laws of the USSR by ordering the executive power .. It is impossible to present the same order to the Politburo not to the Council of Ministers of the USSR, but to the President (Prime Minister) of Czechoslovakia. Actually, I wrote to you about this.

    The leadership of the USSR gave an order to provide assistance to Israel down the chain. Through Czechoslovakia. So? Where are these orders? Where are the reports and performance reports?

    Quote: clerk
    On the same thread, your colleague provided data.

    Nobody brought the documents. Where are the documents?
  20. clerk
    clerk April 19 2021 09: 14
    +2
    ... Stupid post-perestroika myth. A piece of paper was only required if the question was about bureaucracy, resources, or reports. Political or administrative influence was not formalized by paper ("There is an opinion that .....").

    Not. Everything was painted to the nails. Look at the declassified archives of the union republics.
    What is "no"? Reread again what I have written and your answer. You will see that there is no contradiction. "Nails" are a material resource and were drawn up by decrees, invoices and on. The political position was formalized by speeches and articles.
    The leadership of the USSR gave an order to provide assistance to Israel down the chain. Through Czechoslovakia. So? Where are these orders? Where are the reports and performance reports?
    You are the type of researcher - so you dig the archives. You cannot and do not know how to work with archives, but you draw conclusions based on your ignorance of the principles of the Soviet system - it means that you are not a researcher, but a banal propagandist - anti-Soviet.
    . On the same thread, your colleague provided data.

    Nobody brought the documents. Where are the documents?
    You made a noise that Masaryk was killed by Soviet agents. Show the order for this murder and / or the execution report. You can not? So your words about the murder of Masaryk are a clumsy lie ..
  21. Professor
    Professor April 19 2021 09: 33
    -3
    Quote: clerk
    What is "no"? Reread again what I have written and your answer. You will see that there is no contradiction. "Nails" are a material resource and were drawn up by decrees, invoices and on. The political position was formalized by speeches and articles.

    No, not only the material side, but also the political one. The decision of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks to close the JAC is proof of this. And here we are talking about the supply of weapons. Where are the reports? "so many planes have been delivered, so many machine guns ..." and so on? WHERE THE DOCUMENTS?

    Quote: clerk
    You are the type of researcher - so you dig the archives. You cannot and do not know how to work with archives, but you draw conclusions based on your ignorance of the principles of the Soviet system - it means that you are not a researcher, but a banal propagandist - anti-Soviet.

    Anti-Soviet? On the contrary. I affirm that the USSR never helped the Zionists in their heinous cause. I argue that the Soviet system was very orderly, where everything was recorded as it should be. For example:
    Document No. 16
    Conclusion of the Counselor of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the USSR B.E. Stein to the report by E.G. Lemberg, directed to the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR A.Ya. Vyshinsky
    22.04.1948

    By your order, I got acquainted with the report of E. Lemberg "On the need to send a significant cadre of Jews from the USSR to Palestine."
    This report is a mixture of some correct propositions with completely incorrect and fantastic conclusions.

    The correct propositions are, firstly, the statement that, by the combined efforts of Britain and the United States, the Middle Eastern countries are turning into a springboard from which aggression directed against the USSR is being prepared, and, secondly, that the Soviet Union must not only closely monitor the creation of this bridgehead, but also take appropriate action.

    This is followed by incorrect and unfounded propositions. The author of the report states that:

    1. The integrity of this (Middle Eastern) anti-Soviet foothold is violated by the fact of the existence of Jewish Palestine.

    2. Jewish Palestine, deceived by Britain and betrayed by the United States, turns its gaze to the USSR.

    3. In the coming clash between the USSR and the anti-Soviet front in the Middle East, Jewish Palestine will not support forces hostile to the USSR.

    Even if we recognize as correct the thesis, which has not been proven by the author, that in the event of war, Jewish Palestine will be on the side of the USSR, then in this case its insignificant share in the Middle East (both geographically and economically) is unlikely to be able to violate the integrity of the Middle East bridgehead. Meanwhile, the author's categorical assertion that Jewish Palestine will not join the Middle East bridgehead, hostile to the USSR, is subject to great doubt. The fact that at this moment the leading group (Zionists) of Palestinian Jews "are turning their gaze to the USSR" is caused by purely opportunistic circumstances. By virtue of their class nature, the Zionists will support the United States, not the USSR. The author provides interesting data on the role of the working class in Palestine and its party and professional organizations. However, he himself admits that all these organizations do not play a decisive role, at least at the present time.

    Precisely in order to change the balance of forces within Palestine, the author of the report puts forward a fantastic plan for the transfer of 50 thousand Soviet Jews within one year, who, in his opinion, should "be ready to defend the Soviet Union on the Palestinian sector of the front", and "up to the onset of hostilities should play a large role in splitting the imperialist bloc, causing discontent among the peoples of the Middle East both by the imperialist invaders and by the bribed Arab and other political leaders. "

    It is hardly necessary to prove not only the unreality of this proposal, but also its harmful political consequences for the USSR, if such a proposal were accepted. Such an event could only strengthen the provocative propaganda of the United States that the USSR is sending "communist agitators" to Palestine and preparing for a "revolution in Palestine."

    Due to the above considerations, the proposal of the author of the report to send 50 thousand Jews from the USSR to Palestine not can be accepted.

    B. Stein

    And accordingly, there was no help from the USSR to Israel and there is no need to lie about this.
  22. zenion
    zenion 5 June 2021 01: 27
    0
    In vain you argue with him. There is no need to stoop to his level. Is that entertainment for you. It would have been easier if he had watched the celebration of the anniversary of the founding of Israel on TV. A speech was made by the former captain of the ship that transported weapons from the Romanian ports that came to the port from Czechoslovakia. When he said that he was carrying these weapons, the authorities attacked him. They began to shout to his daughters, take your crazy dad away from the microphone, the microphone was turned off. The old man burst into tears and told reporters that they were liberating the land, building Israel, but he had such people as rulers.
  23. VORON538
    VORON538 April 15 2021 15: 25
    -2
    professor, is Kolomois a Jew or not entirely? Ukraine ??? What can you say about the Russian, shoeing civilians on any pretext ???
  • Oleg Aviator
    Oleg Aviator April 23 2021 23: 00
    0
    ProfEssor) are you misleading people here again?) And are you ashamed to frankly beg your pardon to breach?))) Were there partisans too? ... As well as about foreign, including Soviet, specialists)
  • Usher
    Usher April 15 2021 22: 15
    0
    Quote: Professor
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Quote: Professor
    Lying allows you to write something else.

    Haha, it's funny to see that from you!

    Really funny because I have never been caught in a lie.

    Seriously? And it's ugly to lie! Although it will become of you.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine April 15 2021 09: 04
    +7
    Quote: Professor
    to Israel and there were NO Soviet military instructors from the word "absolutely".
    Among the "junior" officers in the Israeli army were mainly former soldiers and officers with the corresponding "fifth column" in the questionnaire, who expressed a desire to repatriate to their historical homeland. As a result, Captain Halperin (born in Vitebsk in 1912) became the founder and first head of the Mossad intelligence, created the Shin Bet public security and counterintelligence service. In the history of Israel and its special services, "the honorary pensioner and faithful heir of Beria", the second person after Ben-Gurion, entered under the name Iser Harel. Smersha officer Livanov founded and led the foreign intelligence service Nativa Bar. He took the Jewish name Nehimia Levanon, under which he went down in the history of Israeli intelligence. Captains Nikolsky, Zaitsev and Malevany "put" the work of the special forces of the Israel Defense Forces.
    It is not for you to judge what happened and how it was, Professor. Those who founded Israel are worthy of respect, but not like you. You have a lot of bile and evil, and you are lying all the time.
    1. Professor
      Professor April 15 2021 09: 22
      -5
      Quote: tihonmarine
      It is not for you to judge what happened and how it was, Professor. Those who founded Israel are worthy of respect, but not like you. You have a lot of bile and evil, and you are lying all the time.

      Of course, I am to judge what happened and how it was all the more to the welfare of the defense capability of this country, and I put my hand. Well, I know the history of Israel in general and its security services in particular. Now there is not a lot of materiel for amateurs like you:

      Isah Harel (née Halperin) succeeded Shiloach in 1952. At the age of 10 he moved with his family from Vitebsk to Daugavpils, at the age of 17 in 1930 he moved to Palestine. Probably he was recruited into the Red Army at the age of 10 in Vitebsk during the confiscation of family property or in the youth Zionist organization "Hashomer-Hatzair" or when, at the age of 16, he worked on a farm near Riga for a year from this organization, preparing to become a kibbutznik and this secret was not revealed until his death in 2003 ...
      https://www.shabak.gov.il/heritage/heads/pages/harel.aspx

      Israel Shoyhet create bloody NKV Deshniki Lukacher and Serebryansky,
      Israel Shohat created by dad and mom and he was born on January 30, 1886. He himself created the Bar Giora (Irgun) militant organization in 1907. He died in 1961.

      the first leader of Massad is the captain of the GRU RKKA Halperin
      Mossad was created on December 13, 1949 by Ruben Shiloach on the orders of Ben Gurion. Shiloakh (former name Zaslansky) was born in Jerusalem on December 20, 1909, and not in Vitebsk.

      The first head of intelligence Nativa Bar - Major of the NKVD Livanov
      LEVANON Nehemiah (before the change of name - Levitan; 1915, the city of Ruzhena, Livonia province, - 2003, kibbutz Kfar-Blum), Israeli statesman and public figure. Born into the family of the director of a small factory, a member of the revolutionary movement I. Levitan (? –1920). In 1917, when German troops approached, the family left for Perm, at the end of 1920 they moved to Petrograd. In 1922 the Levanon family went abroad and settled in Tallinn. Levanon studied at a school in the Jewish community with teaching in Russian, then at a Jewish gymnasium. In 1930 he joined the youth Zionist organization "Amana", then in Hashomer ha-tsa'ir, was a member of the He-Halutz movement, led the Tallinn branch of the movement. In 1935 he moved to Latvia, headed the Riga branch of the Herzliya youth-Zionist movement. In 1938 he immigrated to Eretz Yisrael. He joined kibbutz Afikim, in 1939 he became the secretary of the Anglo-Baltic group created in Binyamin's moshav by repatriates from Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, England, and the USA. In 1943, an Anglo-Baltic group founded the kibbutz Kfar Blum. In 1945 he was sent by the Jewish Agency and the organization Netzach-Hashomer Ha-Tsa'ir to England to work with Jewish youth Zionist movements and organize aliyah. He was a delegate to the 22nd Zionist Congress in Basel in December 1946. In June 1948 he returned to Israel, lived and worked in the kibbutz Kfar Blum. He ran the kibbutz farm.

      Native was established in 1951 and its first leader was Shaul Avigur. Levanon led the Nativ in 1970-1980.

      compound 101- captains of the GRU RKKA Zaitsev, Nikolsky, Malevanny,
      "Division 101" was created in 1953 !!! Moshe Dayan and Michelle Shaham. The idea of ​​creation belongs to Ariel Sharon. Even our children know this.
      1. Looking for
        Looking for April 15 2021 15: 47
        +1
        I support the urine of these "Palestinian Cossacks" in the tail and mane !!!
      2. not main
        not main April 15 2021 23: 36
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        Even our children know this.

        Thank God that our children do not know this ... I do not even know whether Zionism ... or idiotism:
      3. clerk
        clerk April 16 2021 17: 18
        0
        ... the first leader of Massada - captain of the GRU Red Army Halperin
        The Mossad was created on December 13 of the 1949 of the year by Ruben Shiloah by order of Ben Gurion. Shiloah (former surname Zaslansky) was born in Jerusalem on the 20 of December of the 1909 of the year and in no way in Vitebsk.
        ... It is strange that the Chekists working in Israel hid their real biographies. laughing
        1. Professor
          Professor April 16 2021 17: 40
          0
          Quote: clerk
          ... the first leader of Massada - captain of the GRU Red Army Halperin
          The Mossad was created on December 13 of the 1949 of the year by Ruben Shiloah by order of Ben Gurion. Shiloah (former surname Zaslansky) was born in Jerusalem on the 20 of December of the 1909 of the year and in no way in Vitebsk.
          ... It is strange that the Chekists working in Israel hid their real biographies. laughing

          Uh-huh. They also bribed the entire kibbutz in which they allegedly lived from childhood, the whole school in which they allegedly studied ... So you imagine that? Now Israel is a big village where everyone knows everyone, but then it was a communal apartment.
          1. clerk
            clerk April 16 2021 19: 44
            0
            It is strange that the Chekists working in Israel hid their real biographies. laughing

            Uh-huh. They also bribed the entire kibbutz in which they allegedly lived from childhood, the whole school in which they allegedly studied ... So you imagine that? Now Israel is a big village where everyone knows everyone, but then it was a communal apartment.
            Then (on the eve of the War of Independence) - it was a courtyard.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 16 2021 19: 47
              0
              Quote: clerk
              Then (on the eve of the War of Independence) - it was a courtyard.

              No, I was not. Yishuv was very young and everyone knew everyone. Nothing in the biography could be faked.
              1. clerk
                clerk April 16 2021 20: 31
                0
                ... Then (on the eve of the War of Independence) - it was a courtyard.

                No, I was not. Yishuv was very young and everyone knew everyone. Nothing in the biography could be faked
                1) Doubt that even in today's Tel Aviv “everyone knows each other,” and then the Jewish population of Israel was 1,5 times larger. 2) Even if it was impossible to hide the real biography (although for the then repatriates it was easier than easy), no one bothered to weaken the fake official history, having blotted out information about the participation of Soviet specialists in the War of Independence and the creation of Israeli security forces. The same thing that was done in the USSR regarding the Jewish contribution to the VOSR.
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 16 2021 20: 51
                  +1
                  Quote: clerk
                  1) Doubt that even in today's Tel Aviv “everyone knows each other,” and then the Jewish population of Israel was 1,5 times larger.

                  You just don't know. Then Yishuv was generally like a communal apartment

                  Quote: clerk
                  2) Even if it was impossible to hide the real biography (although for the then repatriates it was easier than easy), no one bothered to weaken the fake official history, blotting out information about the participation of Soviet specialists in the War of Independence and the creation of Israeli security forces.

                  No, It is Immpossible. the repatriates did not come out of a vacuum, but were familiar with each other in the country of origin. Most of them participated in Zionist organizations before repatriation. Look at the biographies of Israel's leaders.

                  Quote: clerk
                  The same thing that was done in the USSR regarding the Jewish contribution to the VOSR.

                  Unlike the USSR and the Russian Federation, our archives are available to everyone. You don’t cheat a lot, and as we do; journalists are furious ... Anat Kam is an example of this.
                  1. clerk
                    clerk April 16 2021 22: 20
                    0
                    ... You just don't know. Then Yishuv was generally like a communal apartment
                    More than 700 thousand.
                    .Independence and the creation of power structures of Israel.

                    No, It is Immpossible. the repatriates did not come out of a vacuum, but were familiar with each other in the country of origin. Most of them participated in Zionist organizations before repatriation.
                    Hundreds of thousands of people from devastated Europe? I strongly doubt that the Zionist organizations numbered that many.
                    Look at the biographies of Israel's leaders.
                    Leaders - perhaps, but not ordinary repatriates.
                    Unlike the USSR and the Russian Federation, our archives are available to everyone. You don’t cheat a lot, but as with us; journalists are furious
                    Well, what can a journalist do with the official legendary biography of a Soviet intelligence officer, which has been archived for 70 years? Check for authenticity? This is not serious
                  2. Professor
                    Professor April 17 2021 07: 12
                    0
                    Quote: clerk
                    More than 700 thousand.

                    That's it. And if you break everyone according to "interests" into kibbutzniks, haridim, moshavniks and so on, then it turns out that you are in full view.

                    Quote: clerk
                    Hundreds of thousands of people from devastated Europe? I strongly doubt that the Zionist organizations numbered that many.

                    Hundreds of thousands of this after the war, and before Hitler came to power, only Zionists went, then there were not many refugees.

                    Quote: clerk
                    Leaders - perhaps, but not ordinary repatriates.

                    The vast majority, if not absolutely all.

                    Quote: clerk
                    Well, what can a journalist do with the official legendary biography of a Soviet intelligence officer, which has been archived for 70 years? Check for authenticity? This is not serious

                    You proceed from the assumption that no one has tested it for 70 years, but this is not the case. In sensitive positions, check regularly included a polygraph. Soviet residents were identified more than once, and when the USSR collapsed, lists of those recruited by the KGB in Israel were also published.
                    https://www.newsru.co.il/israel/28oct2016/mitrochin301.html
                  3. clerk
                    clerk April 18 2021 08: 57
                    0
                    .Hundreds of thousands of people from devastated Europe? I strongly doubt that the Zionist organizations numbered that many.

                    Hundreds of thousands of this after the war, and before Hitler came to power, only Zionists went, then there were not many refugees.
                    Alia Bet in 1934-48 - 110 thousand (Out of 716 thousand Jews in 1948). How many of them are ideological Zionists before the end of 1945?
                    ... You proceed from the assumption that no one has tested it for 70 years, but this is not the case. In sensitive positions, check regularly included a polygraph. Soviet residents have been identified repeatedly,
                    That is, they were not there, but they were identified repeatedly. Especially on a polygraph in 1948-55. laughing Go ahead.
                  4. Professor
                    Professor April 18 2021 10: 53
                    -1
                    Quote: clerk
                    Alia Bet in 1934-48 - 110 thousand (Out of 716 thousand Jews in 1948). How many of them are ideological Zionists before the end of 1945?

                    Most. The rest did not express a desire to fight the Arabs and build Zionism in the desert and preferred America and other countries.

                    Quote: clerk
                    That is, they were not there, but they were identified repeatedly. Especially on a polygraph in 1948-55. Go ahead.

                    In the leadership was not, and the rank and file were identified more than once. By the way, the polygraph was invented three decades before 1948-55. Dare you.
                  5. clerk
                    clerk April 18 2021 15: 16
                    +1
                    ... Alia Bet in 1934-48 - 110 thousand (Out of 716 thousand Jews in 1948). How many of them are ideological Zionists before the end of 1945?

                    Most.
                    How much is this? How many ideological
                  6. Professor
                    Professor April 18 2021 15: 29
                    0
                    Quote: clerk
                    How much is this? How many ideological

                    I have not tested them on a polygraph, but by analogy with the aliyah of the 1970s, I dare to assume about 80-90%.
                  7. clerk
                    clerk April 18 2021 16: 35
                    +1
                    .How much is this? How many ideological

                    I have not tested them on a polygraph, but by analogy with the aliyah of the 1970s, I dare to assume about 80-90%.
                    In the 70s and 80s, there were 10 percent of ideological ideas, the rest were sausage (perhaps posing as ideological at the expense of vilifying the USSR). If by analogy, then in 45-48 as well, then there are 50-60 thousand refugees. Quite enough for Soviet agents to get lost.
                  8. Professor
                    Professor April 18 2021 18: 05
                    -2
                    Quote: clerk
                    In the 70s and 80s, there were 10 percent of ideological ideas, the rest were sausage (perhaps posing as ideological at the expense of vilifying the USSR).

                    Not. The sausages in Vienna took a plane to the United States.

                    Quote: clerk
                    If by analogy, then in 45-48 as well, then there are 50-60 thousand refugees. Quite enough for Soviet agents to get lost.

                    Mitrokhin's archive suggests otherwise. hi
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich April 15 2021 10: 15
    +7
    Or there were more Jews in Soviet captivity (that is, in the German army) than is commonly believed.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U April 15 2021 10: 25
      +6
      Quote: Sahar Medovich
      Or Jews in Soviet captivity (i.e. in the German army)

      Actually, I’m talking about this.
    2. Professor
      Professor April 16 2021 07: 45
      +1
      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
      Or there were more Jews in Soviet captivity (that is, in the German army) than is commonly believed.

      I understand that it is difficult for you to grasp it, but in the "Soviet captivity" it is not equal in the "German army", the CEP. About 10 Hungarian Jews who had never served in the Wehrmacht, but who were employed in hard labor in labor camps, were captured by the Soviet Union. In particular, the Germans sent them for demining, and shot them for disobedience.
      Links to spread?
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich April 16 2021 11: 42
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        Soviet captivity "is not equal to the" German army "

        That's right, cornet. The same applies to the Germans themselves. But the proportion, one must think, remains.
        Quote: Professor
        about 10 Hungarian Jews who had never served in the Wehrmacht were taken prisoner, and

        That is, together with the Jews who served in the Wehrmacht and the satellite armies, this figure, one must think, is even higher? And give the links, perhaps.
        1. Professor
          Professor April 16 2021 14: 38
          +1
          Quote: Sahar Medovich

          That is, together with the Jews who served in the Wehrmacht and the satellite armies, this figure, one must think, is even higher? And give the links, perhaps.

          Jews did not serve in the Wehrmacht and satellite armies. Racial laws were not allowed.

          I posted links here and here I described in detail the situation with the Hungarian Jews.
          https://topwar.ru/166255-v-prigorode-nju-jorka-proizoshlo-napadenie-na-sinagogu.html#comment-id-9985388

          https://www.yadvashem.org/articles/general/jews-of-hungary-during-the-holocaust.html
          https://hunghist.org/archive/83-articles/315-2015-3-szecsenyi
          https://honvedelem.hu/hatter/multidezo/munkaszolgalat-a-magyar-kiralyi-honvedsegben-1939-1945-1945.html
          1. clerk
            clerk April 16 2021 17: 15
            +1
            Jews did not serve in the Wehrmacht and satellite armies. Racial laws did not allow ..
            The Mischlings served quite well. More than ten thousand will be typed.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 16 2021 17: 38
              -2
              Quote: clerk
              Jews did not serve in the Wehrmacht and satellite armies. Racial laws did not allow ..
              The Mischlings served quite well. More than ten thousand will be typed.

              Are we talking about the Jews or who? If about the Jews, then they did not serve in the Wehrmacht. If about the Mishlings of the first or second degree, then the spouses of Jews were also recorded here. Like a Jew by his ex-wife. Michelings of the first degree did not serve in the Wehrmacht either.
              Mischling of the second degree, a quarter Jew, was a person with one Jewish grandfather or one Jewish grandmother, or an Aryan married to a Jew or a Jewess. In 1939 there were still 72,000 Mishlings in the first degree and 39,000 in the second degree in Germany.
              1. clerk
                clerk April 16 2021 22: 24
                +1
                ... In 1939 there were still 72,000 Mishlings in the first degree and 39,000 in the second degree in Germany.
                And in 1941, in the Third Reich?
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 17 2021 07: 13
                  -1
                  Quote: clerk
                  ... In 1939 there were still 72,000 Mishlings in the first degree and 39,000 in the second degree in Germany.
                  And in 1941, in the Third Reich?

                  Much less since some fled from Germany, and some were sent to concentration camps.
          2. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich April 16 2021 17: 33
            +1
            Quote: Professor
            Racial laws did not allow

            But they allowed not only in the Wehrmacht, but in the SS to serve the Slavs and Asians, and the Slav Vlasov to marry the widow of an SS officer. The severity of the laws is compensated by the non-binding nature of their implementation. It's the same with the Jews.
            1. Professor
              Professor April 16 2021 17: 42
              -1
              Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
              Quote: Professor
              Racial laws did not allow

              But they allowed not only in the Wehrmacht, but in the SS to serve the Slavs and Asians, and the Slav Vlasov to marry the widow of an SS officer. The severity of the laws is compensated by the non-binding nature of their implementation. It's the same with the Jews.

              The Nuremberg Laws said nothing about slaves. They are about Jews.
              https://www.yadvashem.org/ru/holocaust/lexicon/nuremberg-laws.html
              1. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich April 16 2021 18: 37
                +2
                That is, the Germans did not consider the Russians "subhumans"? At least at the propaganda level?
                1. Professor
                  Professor April 16 2021 18: 45
                  -1
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  That is, the Germans did not consider the Russians "subhumans"? At least at the propaganda level?

                  At the Stalinist propaganda level, yes. I have never seen such ideas in German official rhetoric. The Russian Liberation Army is an example of this. The racial laws of the Russians or the Slavs did not apply, which did not prevent the Nazis from killing the Slavs.
                  1. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich April 17 2021 04: 38
                    +1
                    Not in Stalinist, but in German. And not just propaganda, but mandatory in practice. But ... being determines consciousness.
                    1. Professor
                      Professor April 17 2021 07: 16
                      -1
                      It is in Stalin's language. It was necessary to urgently create the image of an enemy from a friend. I did not find any German documents where they "did not consider Russians to be people" or "planned to make Russians slaves". Have you met?
                    2. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich April 17 2021 09: 12
                      +2
                      It is in German. In Stalin's language it was simply not required, especially in this form.
                      Met, of course. At least "Hitler's Table Talks" (there is no question of "My struggle" or "The main myth of the twentieth century" by Rosenberg). Or the famous Gestapo analytical note in August 1942 Or https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/slavyane-smeshannyy-narod-na-osnove-nizshey-rasy-rasovye-osnovy-rusofobii-tretiego-reyha/viewer.
                    3. Professor
                      Professor April 17 2021 11: 08
                      -1
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      It is in German. In Stalin's language it was simply not required, especially in this form.

                      ... and yet it was Stalin's propaganda that spread these myths.

                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Met, of course. At least "Hitler's Table Talks" (there is no question of "My struggle" or "The main myth of the twentieth century" by Rosenberg). Or the famous Gestapo analytical note in August 1942 Or https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/slavyane-smeshannyy-narod-na-osnove-nizshey-rasy-rasovye-osnovy-rusofobii-tretiego-reyha/viewer.

                      The fact that only the Germans were considered the highest race in Germany is no secret, but there were no racial laws directed against the Slavs. This explains the creation of the Russian Liberation Army and "Russian SS divisions and regiments and corps and brigades and even reconnaissance and sabotage formations", as well as SS units consisting of Ukrainians and other Slavs.
                    4. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich April 17 2021 13: 08
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      and yet it was Stalinist propaganda that spread these myths

                      More precisely: in the course of events, it spread what the German propaganda was saying. In real.
                      Quote: Professor
                      however, there were no racial laws against the Slavs.

                      In the sense: it was not written down on paper, as against the Jews? This does not change matters - in practice it was.
                      Quote: Professor
                      This explains the creation of the Russian Liberation Army and "Russian SS divisions and regiments and corps and brigades and even reconnaissance and sabotage formations", as well as SS units consisting of Ukrainians and other Slavs.

                      Nothing of the kind. The reason for this is the protracted war with huge losses for the Germans. If "Barbarossa" had succeeded as it was intended, not a single Russian / Ukrainian would have been allowed close to the army.
                    5. Professor
                      Professor April 17 2021 13: 27
                      -1
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      More precisely: in the course of events, it spread what the German propaganda was saying. In real.

                      On the contrary. German propaganda promised mountains of gold to those who surrendered.

                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      In the sense: it was not written down on paper, as against the Jews? This does not change matters - in practice it was.

                      In practice, there was also Khatyn, but there was no official ideology and racial laws against the Slavs. No one was persecuted for marrying a Slav.

                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Nothing of the kind. The reason for this is the protracted war with huge losses for the Germans. If "Barbarossa" had succeeded as it was intended, not a single Russian / Ukrainian would have been allowed close to the army.

                      Not. Local collaborators appeared at the very beginning of the war, and Khatyn only in 1943.

                      "If only" we do not discuss.
                    6. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 14: 02
                      -2
                      Quote: Professor
                      In practice, there was also Khatyn, but there was no official ideology and racial laws against the Slavs. No one was persecuted for marrying a Slav.

                      Both Khatyn and Oradour-sur-Glane. Just brutality, "the horrors of war" in its purest form. There was nothing specifically anti-Soviet, and even specifically Hitler, in this.
                    7. Professor
                      Professor April 17 2021 15: 29
                      -1
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Quote: Professor
                      In practice, there was also Khatyn, but there was no official ideology and racial laws against the Slavs. No one was persecuted for marrying a Slav.

                      Both Khatyn and Oradour-sur-Glane. Just brutality, "the horrors of war" in its purest form. There was nothing specifically anti-Soviet, and even specifically Hitler, in this.

                      The crimes of the Nazis knew no boundaries and there is no statute of limitations for them.
                    8. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 15: 32
                      0
                      Quote: Professor
                      The crimes of the Nazis knew no boundaries and there is no statute of limitations for them.

                      Why necessarily the Nazis? The concept of collective guilt was close to all parties to the conflict.
                    9. Professor
                      Professor April 17 2021 15: 35
                      -2
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Quote: Professor
                      The crimes of the Nazis knew no boundaries and there is no statute of limitations for them.

                      Why necessarily the Nazis? The concept of collective guilt was close to all parties to the conflict.

                      Everyone else is far from the Nazis. Only the Japanese are closer to them, and the rest are just children compared to the Nazis.
                    10. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 15: 47
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      Everyone else is far from the Nazis. Only the Japanese are closer to them, and the rest are just children compared to the Nazis.

                      Do I understand you correctly that whoever killed 10+ million peace dwellers is bad, and who killed 10 million peace dwellers is good?
                    11. Professor
                      Professor April 17 2021 15: 54
                      -1
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Quote: Professor
                      Everyone else is far from the Nazis. Only the Japanese are closer to them, and the rest are just children compared to the Nazis.

                      Do I understand you correctly that whoever killed 10+ million peace dwellers is bad, and who killed 10 million peace dwellers is good?

                      Where did I write about the good ones?
                    12. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 16: 03
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      Where did I write about the good ones?

                      You see, first you write about the Nazis, then about the Nazis and the Japanese, and when the turn comes to the Nazis, the Japanese, the British and the USSR, the severity of the issue will somehow dissipate, doesn't it?
                    13. Professor
                      Professor April 17 2021 17: 17
                      -1
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Quote: Professor
                      Where did I write about the good ones?

                      You see, first you write about the Nazis, then about the Nazis and the Japanese, and when the turn comes to the Nazis, the Japanese, the British and the USSR, the severity of the issue will somehow dissipate, doesn't it?

                      No.
  • apro
    apro April 15 2021 04: 42
    +6
    The author is drawn to the Sakhorov and Solzhenitsin Prize. The bloody enkavede deliberately killed the Germans and created unbearable conditions of captivity.
    1. WHAT IS
      WHAT IS April 15 2021 05: 20
      +20
      So unbearable that the ration was more than in the besieged Leningrad, and even money they were paid for their work. Compare if, as our prisoners lived with them, so the Nazis had a resort here.
      1. apro
        apro April 15 2021 06: 28
        +5
        Quote: WHAT IS
        So unbearable

        The Soviets did not aim at the physical destruction of captured Germans, which the author immodestly keeps silent about, but speaks of the Soviet system in prisoner of war camps as extremely repressive and contributed to the death of captured Germans.
      2. Blacksmith 55
        Blacksmith 55 April 15 2021 07: 57
        +4
        I am writing from memory.
        As I read it on Wikipedia, 60% of Soviet prisoners of war died and died in German camps, which actually coincides with the data of the article.
        Anglo-Americans captured, 6% died.
        Let everyone make their own conclusions.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 15 2021 22: 18
          -5
          Quote: Blacksmith 55
          Let everyone make their own conclusions.

          Hmm. It is necessary to sign the conventions on time and not to be taken prisoner in whole fronts at once. Will the latter overload the adversary's logistical capabilities, even if he would like to fulfill the obligations of humane treatment? Will the answer go?
          1. not main
            not main April 15 2021 23: 44
            -2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Quote: Blacksmith 55
            Let everyone make their own conclusions.

            Hmm. It is necessary to sign the conventions on time and not to be taken prisoner in whole fronts at once. Will the latter overload the adversary's logistical capabilities, even if he would like to fulfill the obligations of humane treatment? Will the answer go?

            Will not work! A convention is nothing more than a "piece of paper"! And in Stalingrad, captured enemies died much less than our prisoners of the Red Army in 41-42
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 16 2021 07: 58
              -2
              Quote: non-primary
              in Stalingrad, captured enemies died much less than our prisoners of the Red Army in 41-42

              So they were captured by an order of magnitude less, and the tension of Soviet logistics was not so strong compared to Barbarossa. So no, not yet an argument.
              1. clerk
                clerk April 16 2021 17: 10
                +2
                Barbarossa was planned for a year, representing the scale of the losses of the Red Army., Uranus was planned in a few months, three times mistaken in the number of the German group.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 16 2021 19: 12
                  -2
                  Quote: clerk
                  Uranus was planned in a few months, three times mistaken in the size of the German group.

                  Maybe. And what is the thesis?
                  1. clerk
                    clerk April 16 2021 20: 15
                    +3
                    .Uranus was planned for several months, three times mistaken in the size of the German group.

                    Maybe. And what is the thesis?
                    The thesis is that the Nazis could plan for at least six months the number of possible prisoners of the Red Army and the cost of maintenance, but the Soviets at Stalingrad could not plan this, especially the physical condition of the prisoners.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 07: 19
                      -1
                      Quote: clerk
                      The thesis is that the Nazis could plan for at least six months the number of possible prisoners of the Red Army and the cost of maintenance,

                      Apparently, the Germans did not consider life and death in the military as something important. On the other hand, as already noted here, quite numerous French military units in similar circumstances did not have such big problems. Therefore, you need to calmly understand the differences between the French and Soviet cases.
          2. Zakirov Damir
            Zakirov Damir April 16 2021 12: 16
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine

            Hmm. It is necessary to sign the conventions on time and not to be taken prisoner in whole fronts at once. Will the latter overload the adversary's logistical capabilities, even if he would like to fulfill the obligations of humane treatment? Will the answer go?

            If logistical possibilities do not allow, then why not release and bail the local population - the USSR and Germany. Let them work for the good of the Third Reich. Thus, they drop out of the servicemen of the Red Army and become civilians. Why deliberately exterminate behind barbed wire?
            Will the answer go?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 16 2021 19: 20
              -1
              [quote = Damir Zakirov, why not release and bail the local population - the USSR and Germany [/ quote]
              Good idea.
              Are you familiar with the biographies of the heroic Soviet partisans? For example, the famous comrade. V.T. Voronyansky?

              By the way. Have you forgotten how the discussion started?
              Quote: Blacksmith 55
              in German camps, 60% of Soviet prisoners of war died and died, which actually coincides with the data of the article.
              Anglo-Americans captured, 6% died.

              Indeed, why would it be?
              1. Zakirov Damir
                Zakirov Damir April 16 2021 21: 26
                +2
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Good idea.
                Are you familiar with the biographies of the heroic Soviet partisans? For example, the famous comrade. V.T. Voronyansky?


                Did anyone in the Third Reich think about partisans in XNUMX? We're talking about forty-one prisoners of war, and not about forty-fourth prisoners of war at the peak of the partisan movement.
                So what about my question: "Why was it deliberately exterminated behind barbed wire, if it's just a matter of imperfect logistics?"

                As for the fact that "60% died in the German camps", this is about those who were not released in the period 25.7-13.11.1941 and were not recruited in the period 1.2.1942 - 1.5.1944 - there were 1 from German captivity. Another 142 successfully escaped from German captivity. So 000% concern only those who went through German captivity from start to finish - 67 / 000, where 64.19 are dead.

                And here are the mortality data obtained by me on the basis of a comprehensive analysis:
                2 598 400 - died in German captivity, of which:
                --1 836 000 in the period from 22.6.1941 to 1.2.1942, mortality rate 
                1 / 836 ~ 000 (3%);
                --618 000 in the period from 1.2.1942 to 1.5.1944, mortality rate 
                618/000 2 ~ 128 (000%);
                --38 600 in the period from 1.5.1944 to 31.12.1944, mortality rate
                38 600/1 579 000 ~ 0. 0244 (2.44%);
                --105 800 in the period from 1.1.1945 to 30.4.1945, mortality rate
                105 800/1 540 400 ~ 0.6868 (6.87%).
                *** The mortality rate is calculated in relation to the number that was in captivity during this period, minus those released, escaped, as well as those who died in the previous period. This allows you to see the real mortality rate. We see how the attitude towards Soviet prisoners of war improved as the situation at the front worsened and the growing labor shortage in the German economy. And at the core is not pity, but German pedantry and pragmatism.
                We see how the mortality rate soars sharply in 1945 - during the period of liberation from the camps. If you had time, you would have destroyed everyone! Too fast we rushed forward into the Vistula - Oder and East Prussian operations. Did not make it!
                General mortality rate: 2 / 598 = 400 (4%)
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 17 2021 07: 32
                  -1
                  Quote: Damir Zakirov
                  -1 836 000 in the period from 22.6.1941 to 1.2.1942, mortality rate 
                  1 / 836 ~ 000 (3%);
                  --618 000 in the period from 1.2.1942 to 1.5.1944, mortality rate 
                  618/000 2 ~ 128 (000%);
                  --38 600 in the period from 1.5.1944 to 31.12.1944, mortality rate
                  38 600/1 579 000 ~ 0. 0244 (2.44%);
                  --105 800 in the period from 1.1.1945 to 30.4.1945, mortality rate
                  105 800/1 540 400 ~ 0.6868 (6.87%).

                  That is, the most difficult period from this point of view was the Barbarossa period, and in the 44th the situation was not so far from the standards of the Western Front. Since the Fuhrer obviously did not become kinder during this time, the option "he just did not like the Slavs" is not a checkpoint.
                  Quote: Damir Zakirov
                  We see how the attitude towards Soviet prisoners of war improved as the situation at the front worsened and the growing labor shortage in the German economy. And at the core is not pity, but German pedantry and pragmatism.

                  And how were the prisoners of war of other Slavic nations doing?
                  Quote: Damir Zakirov
                  General mortality rate: 2 / 598 = 400 (4%)

                  I see that your problems with numbers are still there. If we perceive the information adequately, then we will see some extreme level of deaths during the blitzkrieg and a more or less even picture of the rest of the war. It looks rather strange, you need to look for details.
                  1. Zakirov Damir
                    Zakirov Damir April 17 2021 12: 54
                    +1
                    Quote: Cherry Nine

                    That is, the most difficult from this point of view was the period of Barbarossa, and in the 44th the situation was not so far from the standards of the Western Front.

                    Yes everything is correct. The attitude was more pragmatic, and above all on the part of German industrialists.

                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    I see that your problems with numbers are still there.

                    Survivors in the previous period are counted in the next one, taking into account the new prisoners of war that have arrived, and the dead are accrued on an accrual basis, without re-counting. In this regard, the overall score of 64.19% is higher than the blitzkrieg score of 60.24%. That's clearer?

                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    If we perceive the information adequately, then we will see some extreme level of deaths during the blitzkrieg and a more or less even picture of the rest of the war. It looks rather strange, you need to look for details.

                    In parallel with the servicemen of the Red Army, there are also "militias", the estimated mortality rate of which practically coincides with the death rate of servicemen of the Red Army. The estimated number of survivors on 1.9.1944 September 144 is 000 out of 528 captured in 200, and in fact 142 appears among the Red Army soldiers - transferred from the Reichskommissarites "Ostland" and "Ukraine".

                    Lawlessness in relation to Soviet prisoners of war, militias and civilian personnel was from 22.6.1941 to 1.2.1942. Then the attitude became better and better, reaching an extremely low rate by 1944 - five people a month out of one and a half thousand prisoners of war. So there are plenty of lies in this regard too!
                    There is also a lot of superficiality about those "hijacked" to work in Germany from the local population. Little is known, but 150 of the "stolen" sick people were returned to their homeland and no one burned them in the ovens.
                    Those who were actually hijacked and burned in furnaces were Jews, and here there is a massive genocide, as in relation to Soviet prisoners of war in the period from 22.6.1941 to 1.2.1942.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 14: 28
                      -1
                      Quote: Damir Zakirov
                      The attitude was more pragmatic, and above all on the part of German industrialists.

                      Speer saved? Well, it is quite possible. It was a huge injustice that the Germans still did not have the heart to do justice to all that Speer was able to do for the country.
                      Quote: Damir Zakirov
                      That's clearer?

                      It was clear from the start. You have 42 thousand new prisoners in the years 44-69, and in the last year of the war - zero. It doesn't work that way.
                      Quote: Damir Zakirov
                      Those who were actually hijacked and burned in furnaces were Jews, and here there is a massive genocide, as in relation to Soviet prisoners of war in the period from 22.6.1941 to 1.2.1942.

                      Yes. Therefore, if you really look at the crimes of the Reich specifically against the Soviet people, then only two are clearly visible: the Holocaust and the situation with the 41-27. But with all the rest of the well-known XNUMX million, you need to seriously understand who they are and what happened to them.
                      1. Zakirov Damir
                        Zakirov Damir April 17 2021 20: 01
                        +2
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Speer saved? Well, it is quite possible. It was a huge injustice that the Germans still did not have the heart to do justice to all that Speer was able to do for the country.

                        I agree. The man, in his own way, was a patriot of his country and made a significant contribution to the German military-industrial complex.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        It was clear from the start. You have 42 thousand new prisoners in the years 44-69, and in the last year of the war - zero. It doesn't work that way.

                        Humanities are immediately visible. Let's take a closer look.

                        3 - 048 (died during the period 000--1) = 836 survived in captivity during this period, of which:
                        - 1 were finally placed in equipped camps for prisoners of war in the OKW zone of the Wehrmacht, with the subsequent invitation of the IWC commission;
                        - 44 prisoners of war in the Wehrmacht OKH zone, captured in January 000 and in the SPP (in the collection and transfer points of the armies), as well as on the way to the prisoner of war camps as of 1942.

                        2 128 000 - 1 212 000 = 916 000 - prisoners of war who replenished the camps for prisoners of war for the period 1.2.1942 to 1.5.1944, who were not included in the composition of those who successfully fled (approximately 17 during this period), and also were not included in the composition of 000 823, recruited into the Wehrmacht, into military units outside the Wehrmacht, into police formations for the period from 230 to 1.2.1942.
                        Thus, for the period from 1.2.1942 to 1.5.1944, prisoners of war arrived:
                        916 000
                        A PLUS
                        17 000
                        A PLUS
                        823 230
                        TOTAL: 1. What are 756, dear?

                        Let's check.
                        3 prisoners of war on 417 (000 were released by the Germans for surrendering weapons, equipment, transport from 1.2.1942 to 318, about 770 successfully fled, of the remaining 25.7, 13.11.1941 died before 50).

                        3 417 000 prisoners of war for the period from 22.6.1941 to 1.2.1942
                        A PLUS
                        1 756 000
                        TOTAL: 5 prisoners on 173, which is fully consistent with German reporting. In what in what, but the Germans did not lie about the prisoners of war. Another 000 will be captured until 1.5.1944, reaching the final figure of 83 only in German captivity.

                        Another 82 ended up in the Romanian, 100 in the Finnish and the final number, taking into account those taken into German captivity, will reach 62 prisoners of war.

                        Let us determine how many percent of prisoners of war agreed to serve in the ranks of the enemy for the period from 1.2.1942 to 1.5.1944:
                        1 prisoners of war as of 212;
                        1 were received during the period from 756 to 000;
                        Total: 2.

                        823 230/2 968 000 = 0.2774, that is, 27.74% - every fourth!
                        Another 180 entered the ranks of the enemy from among the 000 liberated natives of Western Ukraine, Western Belarus and the Baltic States from 318 to 770.

                        Copy this data, since you will not find it anywhere, especially on the website of the RF Ministry of Defense.

                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        But with all the rest of the well-known 27 million, you need to seriously understand who they are and what happened to them.

                        Direct military and peaceful losses were:

                        - 11 military losses (811 soldiers of the Red Army, including official 000, 10 real missing, 114 killed in the partisan movement, 700 of the recruited released prisoners of war and 6 who died in captivity; ~ 885 militias who died on the battlefield and died in captivity; ~ 100 partisans and underground fighters, killed and executed; 488 dead and 000 civilians who died in captivity);

                        6 844 400 peaceful losses according to the ChGK commission at the Nuremberg trial (even increased mortality was pushed through), of which:
                        --5 all civilians deliberately killed in punitive actions, in raids, the Jewish Holocaust, including those taken out and destroyed in concentration camps, who died in battles for settlements;
                        - 658 residents of besieged Leningrad;
                        ~ 930 deaths due to increased mortality in the occupied territory due to difficult living conditions.

                        TOTAL: 18 655 400. The rest 7 945 000 - "far-fetched" by the Gorbachev Commission of the ADH (Andreev, Darsky, Kharkov).
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 17 2021 21: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Damir Zakirov
                        TOTAL: 1. What are 756, dear?

                        You are right, it is overwhelmed. 69 thousand in 44th 0 in 45th.
                        Quote: Damir Zakirov
                        The man, in his own way, was a patriot of his country and made a significant contribution to the German military-industrial complex.

                        Not only. He did a lot to help the post-war country, the same Earnhard worked in his department on the reform program in post-war Germany. Compare what intellectual resources the leaders of the USSR left behind.
                        Quote: Damir Zakirov
                        TOTAL: 18 655 400. The rest 7 945 000 - "far-fetched" by the Gorbachev Commission of the ADH (Andreev, Darsky, Kharkov).

                        What has always been touching in Russian historiography is that the level of losses in a war that was 50 years ago can be specified with an accuracy of 10 million in both directions, and this does not seem to anyone to be a national shame. I remember, I'm proud, yeah. Nobody is forgotten, nothing is forgotten, yeah.
                      3. Zakirov Damir
                        Zakirov Damir April 17 2021 22: 17
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        What has always been touching in Russian historiography is that the level of losses in a war that was 50 years ago can be specified with an accuracy of 10 million in both directions, and this does not seem to anyone to be a national shame. I remember, I'm proud, yeah. Nobody is forgotten, nothing is forgotten, yeah.

                        What touches me is when you visually describe, moreover, you clearly show who was included in the 26 "dead". They nod in agreement, and after a while again, like parrots, they repeat about the same hackneyed 600 million.

                        But when you tell them that the main specificity of the Wehrmacht was fighting with the Red Army, and not at all the destruction of civilians, then you are going to face a sea of ​​criticism.

                        200 German citizens, citizens of the Third Reich, citizens of European states outside the Third Reich in GESTAPO, in the SD, in the military field police PLUS about 000 soldiers of the Red Army and citizens of the USSR in the police, as well as 214 soldiers of the Red Army and citizens of the USSR in military formations outside the Wehrmacht - this is the basis that carried out the deliberate destruction of the civilian population in the occupied territories, punitive actions, round-ups, genocide of Jews.
                        Was the Wehrmacht involved? Of course, yes, not on the scale that they are trying to impose on us.

                        It is also touching that, naming 26.6 million dead, modern propaganda glorifies, as it were, the contribution of the Soviet people to the defeat of fascism. As if 18 655 000 real losses are not enough and the approach is like in a famous film - "the more we hand over, the better!"
                        Ask on this forum how many died and how the parrots will answer - 26.6 million.
      3. clerk
        clerk April 16 2021 17: 12
        +2
        ... Hmm. It is necessary to sign the conventions on time and not to be taken prisoner in whole fronts at once. Will the latter overload the adversary's logistical capabilities, even if he would like to fulfill the obligations of humane treatment? Will the answer go?
        Unlikely. How many Frenchmen were captured there in 1940 and what percentage of them died? The logistics are not overloaded?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 16 2021 19: 21
          -3
          Quote: clerk
          How many French were there in 1940 and what percentage of them died? The logistics are not overloaded?

          Million and a half like. And what is the thesis?
          1. clerk
            clerk April 16 2021 19: 50
            +3
            How many French were taken prisoner there in 1940 and what percentage of them died? The logistics are not overloaded?

            Million and a half like. And what is the thesis?
            The thesis is that if 1,5 million prisoners of war in 1,5 months of francs did not overload German logistics, then even more so 3,3 million prisoners of war for 5 months of the Red Army could not overload it.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 17 2021 07: 33
              -1
              Quote: clerk
              all the more so it could not be overloaded by 3,3 million prisoners of war for 5 months of the Red Army.

              And this cannot be due to the fact that in the 41st the Wehrmacht had to go further, and in the 40th he had already come to the moment of surrender?
              1. clerk
                clerk April 17 2021 10: 40
                +2
                ... all the more so it could not be overloaded by 3,3 million prisoners of war for 5 months of the Red Army.

                And this cannot be due to the fact that in the 41st the Wehrmacht had to go further, and in the 40th he had already come to the moment of surrender?
                Can not. Behind the Wehrmacht stood a strong and wealthy state, which, with minimal desire, could take care of the prisoners, without interrupting the Wehrmacht from performing combat missions.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 17 2021 14: 31
                  -1
                  Quote: clerk
                  The Wehrmacht was backed by a strong and wealthy state, which, with minimal desire, could take care of the prisoners

                  There was no such desire.
                  By the way, I would not overestimate the German state, the Ordung was still there. The Americans languished in their memoirs, what a pig the Germans threw at them in Tunisia with their surrender, but there are only 300 thousand people there.
                  1. clerk
                    clerk April 17 2021 20: 49
                    +2
                    ... The Wehrmacht was backed by a strong and wealthy state, which, with minimal desire, could take care of the prisoners

                    There was no such desire.
                    To put it more precisely, there was an active unwillingness of Germany to fulfill the conventions it signed on the attitude towards prisoners of war.
                    ... By the way, I would not overestimate the German state, the Ordung was still there.
                    They also had enough mess, but 60% of the killed prisoners by mess and lack of resources cannot be explained - this is a purposeful policy.
                  2. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine April 17 2021 22: 21
                    -1
                    Quote: clerk
                    it is a purposeful policy.

                    If you wanted to, you would kill (s).
  • vvvjak
    vvvjak April 15 2021 09: 27
    +5
    Quote: WHAT IS
    Compare if, as our prisoners lived with them, the Nazis had a resort here.

    In his memoirs, Hartmann claimed that they had a bowling alley in the POW camp for German officers. Well, what is not a resort.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 15 2021 22: 14
      -5
      Quote: vvvjak
      Hartmann claimed that they had not only a sports ground, but also a bowling alley in the POW camp for German officers.

      I don't remember that in his biography. And, frankly speaking, I don’t remember having Hartmann’s memoirs.
      1. vvvjak
        vvvjak April 15 2021 23: 24
        +1
        I'm talking about Toliver's book The Blond Knight of the Reich. It is positioned as a memoir, biography, documentary. How much truth is in it, the third question.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 16 2021 08: 05
          -1
          Quote: vvvjak
          Tolivera "The Blond Knight of the Reich

          For 2 weeks the train crawled eastward. It didn't take navigational skill to determine where he was heading. They drove through Kiev, Moscow, Vologda. The train went deeper and deeper into Russia. The train passed through Kirov and went deep into the swamp zone. Through the cracks in the walls of the carriage, Erich could see endless swamps and swamps. From each side of the railroad embankment, they extended to the horizon. In all this terrible swamp kingdom, the only solid ground was this embankment. When the train began to slow down, Erich assumed that they had arrived at the center of the vast peat bogs, which he had read about in a geography textbook back in school. He was right.

          Exhausted to the limit by the terrible journey, the half-stifled Germans poured out into the fresh air. However, when they came to their senses, they found that there was nothing to rejoice at. They went nowhere. A handful of Russian soldiers, no more than a platoon, patrolled around the camp. Erich immediately understood why the Russians did not need protection. As far as the eye could see, swamps stretched in all directions. Anyone who wanted to run could try.

          The Russians said that they should build their own dwellings for themselves. Erich and his men dug rough holes in the ground and covered them with boards and branches. This was the only place to live. Every morning, together with a thousand other prisoners, they went to the swamps to dig peat. Piles of peat, which the Russians used as fuel, were raised to enormous heights. Every morning the Germans loaded the extracted peat onto the platforms. A freight train took peat out of the camp every day.

          Everything here was done by hand. After a month of hard and dirty work, Erich felt that he could not stand it. Constant hard work, lack of [199] food, a feeling of isolation from the world gradually eroded his will. For the first time, doubts came to him. They were made even more terrible by the position that Erich occupied among the prisoners. He was their recognized leader. 1500 Germans looked at him as their commander. The army is governed by ranks, structure, discipline. If you drive a group of people into a wild, isolated place like these swamps, torture them to death with work, then it will be very difficult to manage them. Erich believed that he could not afford it. How can he inspire his people if he himself starts to fail? And at this moment of crisis his rank of Major of the Luftwaffe fell asleep. 5 weeks after arriving at the convict camp in the swamps, all senior officers - with the rank of major and above - were sent to a special camp in Gryazovets. Erich had reached the limit of his endurance when this order appeared. Even two decades later, he shudders, remembering the terrible slave camp near Kirov and what happened there after he was sent.
          The following year, Captain Werner Engelmann joined us in Gryazovets. He was with us in the swamp camp in Kirov and stayed there after we were sent. His story is terrible. Of the 1500 Germans who arrived there, only 200 survived the first winter. The Russians did not feed them, forced them to work and work until they died of hunger. "

          Compared to Kirov, the officers' camp in Gryazovets was almost luxurious. Major Assi Gahn, one of the best German pilots during the Battle of Britain, who then fought in the JG-2 Richthofen, was in Gryazovets when Erich Hartmann was brought there. Gan has been in Russian hands since February 21, 1943, when it was shot down on the Eastern Front. He destroyed 40 Russian aircraft, not counting 68 victories in the West.

          In his book I Will Tell the Truth, Gan calls Gryazovets' conditions a “boarding house for convalescents” compared to other prisons he has visited. Gan describes the camp in Gryazovets as follows: “The premises of the camp were barracks. The camp administration, the hospital, and the so-called convalescent home were old wooden houses. The camp itself was divided into 2 parts by a small river. The cafe where you could buy a cup of real coffee for a ruble was on the bridge. The owner of the cafe was a dangerous type who used his coffee to make the prisoners talk.

          When the river froze in winter, the camp elite skated on the ice. In the summer, the prisoners could swim whenever they wanted. There was a football field in the meadow behind the barbed wire. The camp also had a second lawn where we could do gymnastics and athletics. In the spring, a bowling alley was opened, apparently for propaganda purposes. When the weather was good, festivities were held in the birch grove. On Sundays, an orchestra played in the cafe.

          We read about bowling, don't read about the rest?
          1. vvvjak
            vvvjak April 16 2021 08: 50
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            We read about bowling, don't read about the rest?

            I read this book for a long time. The copy that I came across was written in the first person (Hartmann). As I understand it, you do not deny the very fact of having a bowling alley in the camp, so what do you want to demonstrate to me now? Your ability to "pull" book quotes from the Internet?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 16 2021 19: 23
              0
              Quote: vvvjak
              As I understand it, you do not deny the very fact of having a bowling alley in the camp, so what do you want to demonstrate to me now?

              It says that in the Soviet republic, which ended the class society, for some reason there were camps for officers with bowling, blackjack, it's scary to say with what, and much less comfortable camps for soldiers. This is an interesting topic in itself, but not too elaborate, it seems.
  • bandabas
    bandabas April 15 2021 09: 12
    +6
    I will add. First - "uterus tafai eggs, milk", then - "but what for me?"
  • Uncle lee
    Uncle lee April 15 2021 04: 45
    +4
    "At the construction site, the Germans exchanged knives for bread" ...
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. April 15 2021 05: 18
    +11
    I do not feel sorry for the captured Germans ... they still got off easily for the millions of our citizens killed. After all, we still experience problems due to the lack of men, there are not enough workers ... we invite migrants.
    And how many future generations of Mendeleevs, Popovs, Korolevs died in Hitler's concentration camps and on the battlefields.
    And then some German prisoners of war are suffering in our camps ... they deserve ... for their affairs and a reward.
    1. apro
      apro April 15 2021 05: 40
      -2
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      After all, we still experience problems due to the lack of men, there are not enough workers ...

      IVS Stalin did not raise this issue, he simply restored the country with the Bolshevik rage and moved forward. And LIBrezhnev, too, somehow did not sharpen his five-year plans, he simply fulfilled and moved forward ... and in the 21st century it suddenly became clear that all the problems of the Russian Federation from the Second World War and suddenly a population decline since 1991 exceeded all Soviet losses in the Second World War? How's that?
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. April 15 2021 05: 57
        +1
        And so ... over the five years of the war with Hitler's Germany, the USSR lost 27 million of its citizens, thousands of settlements were destroyed, and all this was done by the Wehrmacht servicemen.
        One can only assume what would have happened to the USSR had it not been for this destructive war, perhaps the collapse of the Country of Soviets would not have happened and the citizens would have lived much richer.
        1. apro
          apro April 15 2021 06: 04
          -5
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          One can only assume what would have happened to the USSR had it not been for this destructive war,

          It is possible, but not necessary. It is necessary to solve the problems that have arisen. And not to invent an excuse for their own inability. The USSR solved the problems and the restoration of the country and its development. And the demographic consequences of the war. And there were opportunities and resources.
          1. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. April 15 2021 06: 15
            +2
            If the USSR had solved the problems, it would not have collapsed in the 90s so quickly ... This means there were fundamental flaws in the structure of the state.
            After all, it was enough to commit a number of gross miscalculations and treacherous decisions of Gorbachev for the country to go to pieces and collapse into separate apartments with its kings and beys.
            1. apro
              apro April 15 2021 06: 22
              -6
              Quote: Lech from Android.
              This means there were fundamental flaws in the construction of the state.

              This means that today the Russians have every opportunity to surpass all the achievements of the USSR. After all, time has shown the viability of Russian goal-setting over the Soviet one. So far, except for lamentations, nothing is heard, but I am sure the best is ahead.
              1. Lech from Android.
                Lech from Android. April 15 2021 06: 27
                +2
                smile Well, thanks, you consoled me
                For thousands of years we have been proving our viability ... alive and not going to die.
                True, I feel we will have to put one more exceptional nation in its place ... I cannot say what price will have to be paid for this. what
                Everything is in the hands of the Almighty.
                1. apro
                  apro April 15 2021 06: 38
                  -4
                  Quote: Lech from Android.
                  Well, thanks, you consoled me

                  Nezachto.
                  Quote: Lech from Android.
                  True, I feel we will have to put one more exceptional nation in its place ...

                  God help.
            2. Blacksmith 55
              Blacksmith 55 April 15 2021 11: 25
              +2
              Quote: Lech from Android.
              Gorbachev's treacherous decisions

              Unfortunately, it all started before the marked one, he finished and accelerated the matter.
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 15 2021 22: 08
          -3
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          lost 27 million of its citizens, thousands of settlements were destroyed, and all this was done by the Wehrmacht soldiers.

          Why do you think so? DneproGES, for example, who blew it up?
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          One can only assume what would have happened to the USSR had it not been for this destructive war, perhaps the collapse of the Country of Soviets would not have happened and the citizens would have lived much richer

          Why would you? How were Soviet citizens doing in 41? In the 30s?
          1. not main
            not main April 16 2021 00: 28
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Why do you think so? DneproGES, for example, who blew it up?

            This is where it starts! When priorities are changed. I wanted to "unfold", but you can't tell a better story! And who restored the DniproHES?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 16 2021 08: 07
              0
              Quote: non-primary
              And who restored the Dnieper Hydroelectric Power Station?

              Who cares?
              Original post
              Quote: Lech from Android.
              lost 27 million of its citizens, thousands of settlements were destroyed, and all this was done by the Wehrmacht soldiers.

              All this was done by the military unit of the Wehrmacht?
          2. Korax71
            Korax71 April 16 2021 08: 38
            +1
            it was possible not to go far and remember something like order number 0428 hi Yes, a lot of things can be remembered that they tried to justify the necessity. It's just that a kind of trend is in fashion nowadays: "we remember here, we don't remember here."
          3. clerk
            clerk April 16 2021 17: 01
            +2
            .DniproHES, for example, who blew up?
            Or maybe before the question "Who blew up?" first, you should ask - Why was it blown up? And then, after all, some Jews killed themselves and loved ones, so as not to go to execution or to a concentration camp - like they themselves are to blame?
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 16 2021 20: 28
              -2
              Quote: clerk
              Why was it blown up?

              Out of habit. Will not the answer go?
              Quote: clerk
              after all, some Jews killed themselves and loved ones

              And what was this pathos added to? The people who blew up the hydroelectric power station themselves were quite alive, at least that day.
              1. clerk
                clerk April 16 2021 22: 31
                +1
                .Why blew up?

                Out of habit. Will not the answer go?
                I don’t. And you?
                ... after all, some Jews killed themselves and loved ones

                And what was this pathos added to? The people who blew up the hydroelectric power station themselves were quite alive, at least that day.
                To the fact that specific actions are often caused not by their own desires, but by external reasons, to ignore which when evaluating actions is at least incorrect.
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 17 2021 07: 35
                  -1
                  Quote: clerk
                  And you?

                  I'm ok.
                  Quote: clerk
                  caused not by their desires, but by external reasons, to ignore which when evaluating actions is at least incorrect.

                  What do I care about external causes? Your NKVD officers were accomplices of the Reich or what?
                  1. clerk
                    clerk April 17 2021 10: 36
                    +1
                    .And you?
                    //
                    I'm ok.
                    Decipher your TK - what is customary for the USSR - to blow up enterprises or what?
                    ... are caused not by their own desires, but by external reasons, to ignore which when evaluating actions is at least incorrect.

                    What do I care about external causes? Your NKVD officers were accomplices of the Reich or what?
                    Based on your theses, the employees of the NKVD were accomplices of the Reich. In "my universe" they fought with them. Together with the whole country.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 14: 34
                      +1
                      Quote: clerk
                      what is customary for the USSR - to blow up enterprises or what?

                      To carry out the orders of the party and government, regardless of the sacrifice and expediency in a particular case.
                      Quote: clerk
                      Based on your theses, the employees of the NKVD were accomplices of the Reich. In "my universe" they fought with them. Together with the whole country.

                      Here, yes, we are at odds with you. My NKVD did not fight the Reich. This, as it were, follows from the name of this department.
                      1. clerk
                        clerk April 17 2021 20: 43
                        +1
                        ... what is customary for the USSR - to blow up enterprises or what?

                        To carry out the orders of the party and government, regardless of the sacrifice and expediency in a particular case.
                        This is customary for any power structures of any country. It is not clear why you are focusing on the USSR.
                        In "my universe" they fought with them. Together with the whole country.

                        Here, yes, we are at odds with you. My NKVD did not fight the Reich. This, as it were, follows from the name of this department.
                        And with whom did the NKVD fight "you"? (During the Second World War)
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 17 2021 22: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: clerk
                        It is not clear why you are focusing on the USSR.

                        Well, we're talking about the USSR? As for other countries, I only remember Germany, Hitler's order of March 19, 45. But he, whenever possible, was sabotaged by the performers, starting with the same Speer.
                        Quote: clerk
                        And with whom did the NKVD fight "you"? (During the Second World War)

                        With internal enemies, of course. He already cited in the thread a certificate that there are almost two orders of magnitude more Soviet military units sentenced by military tribunals than Nazi criminals identified in 45-49, and those executed by Soviet military units - four times higher than all Nazi criminals sentenced to death Soviet military units - six times.
                      3. clerk
                        clerk April 18 2021 06: 49
                        +1
                        .Well, we're talking about the USSR? As for other countries, I only remember Germany, Hitler's order of March 19, 45. But he, whenever possible, was sabotaged by performers, from the same Speer
                        You have a strange example - Germany 7 weeks before the unconditional surrender is clearly not an example of a normally operating state. management.
                        ... And with whom did the NKVD fight "you"? (During the Second World War)

                        With internal enemies, of course. He already cited in the thread a certificate that there are almost two orders of magnitude more Soviet military units sentenced by military tribunals than Nazi criminals identified in 45-49, and those executed by Soviet military units - four times higher than all Nazi criminals sentenced to death Soviet military units - six times.
                        What a strange arithmetic you have on war criminals - the number of Nazi war criminals identified is ok. 1,5! Thous. (135 thousand / 100), and those executed - totli> 20 thousand, or> 30 ty.? Can you still give specific numbers? And this is some kind of mess. But nevertheless this is a particular. Such a number of war criminals among the Soviet military forces appeared and were identified as part of the fight against the Reich (and not only and not so much the NKVD were identified). Moreover, this was not the only task of the NKVD, and not even the main one.
                      4. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 13: 14
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        Germany 7 weeks before the unconditional surrender is clearly not an example of a normally operating state. management.

                        Well, who is to blame for the fact that only 7 weeks before the surrender, Germany approached Soviet standards in terms of normalcy of state administration?
                        Quote: clerk
                        What a strange arithmetic you have on war criminals

                        The numbers are given below, scroll and count for yourself.
                      5. Zakirov Damir
                        Zakirov Damir April 18 2021 17: 48
                        0
                        Quote: clerk
                        What a strange arithmetic you have on war criminals - the number of Nazi war criminals identified is ok. 1,5! Thous. (135 thousand / 100), and those executed - totli> 20 thousand, or> 30 ty.? Can you still give specific numbers?

                        The fact is that in the balance sheet of Krivosheev there are 6 officially killed, which supposedly includes 885 Red Army servicemen who were shot by a military tribunal.

                        There are two dummy items in the same balance sheet:
                        - 436 "Convicted and sent to places of detention" (600 real servicemen, convicted and sent to places of detention; 62 front part);
                        - 250 400 "Aimed at replenishing the allied armies" - a dummy article.

                        Two front parts hide the following composition:
                        - 444 Red Army servicemen who died in the Wehrmacht and SS, in military formations outside the Wehrmacht, in police formations in the fight against the Red Army, with the partisans of the USSR and Europe, with the allies, as well as those captured in the ranks of the enemy and shot by the decision of the military tribunal ARTICLE 100, PART 58 "TRAINING OF THE HOMELAND BY MILITARY SERVICES";
                        - 180 RKKA servicemen not extradited by the allies, of which 000 were collaborators and only 149 were liberated from camps in the Allied zone, who chose to emigrate instead of returning to their homeland.

                        So about one hundred thousand out of 135 who were shot by the decision of the military tribunal are collaborators who were captured and shot in the ranks of the enemy.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine April 15 2021 08: 46
    +3
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    And then some German prisoners of war are suffering in our camps ... they deserve ... for their affairs and a reward.

    They came to kill Soviet people, enslave them, and then resent that they were mistreated. And in fairness they shouldn't have lived. JV Stalin was a kind man.
    1. apro
      apro April 15 2021 08: 55
      -3
      Quote: tihonmarine
      And in fairness they shouldn't have lived.

      And according to the law?
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine April 15 2021 09: 37
        +1
        Quote: apro
        And according to the law?

        The law is that the tongue, where he turned there and left. Or maybe they were killed at the front according to the law, or maybe the Germans burned people in Auschwitz and Khatyn according to the law.
        1. apro
          apro April 15 2021 09: 40
          -3
          Quote: tihonmarine
          Law that drawbar

          I understand that the Germans surrendered or were taken prisoner it was necessary to kill? And the Soviet laws on the treatment of prisoners only interfered?
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 April 15 2021 05: 29
    +2
    In the diary of General Serovdirected by Stalin to organize the accommodation, food and treatment of prisoners of war after the completion of the liquidation of the boiler near Stalingrad, an episode is described how the Soviet escorts treated the captured Germans. On the road, the general saw the often come across corpses of German prisoners. When he caught up with a huge column of prisoners, then bI was amazed at the behavior of the escort sergeant. He, if the prisoner fell from exhaustion, simply finished him off with a pistol shot and when the general asked who ordered it to him, answered that he himself decided so... Serov forbade the shooting of prisoners and ordered to send a car for the weakened and bring them to the camp.

    what With this diary, manuscripts as the main material for the memoirs of General I.A. Serov, to be honest, "neponyatki".
    They found walled up suitcases, although it is known that I.A. Serov collaborated with some kind of writer to write memoirs.
    In wartime, it was forbidden for the servicemen of the Red Army and the Navy, and for the employees of the NKVD to keep personal diaries.
    I heard about the publication of the book "Ivan Serov. Notes from a suitcase" by A.E. Khinshtein. Doubtful are the entries in the supposedly diary, made by the personal hand of I.A. Serov about the above fact.
    Can it be thought out after all?

    Earlier, on the Day of the Airborne Forces, he described the combat path of his grandfather (on his father's side), how he got into the airborne corps in the fall of 41, participated in the battle near Moscow, but in the summer their corps was renamed the Guards Rifle Division, transferred to Stalingrad as part of the army under Chuikov's command. For the Germans, as he said after the surrender, the weak were taken on carts. In January 43, he received a second wound, and the Germans were treated by ours ...
    The shooting by a sergeant of a weakened prisoner is outright nonsense!

    Regarding the "plight of the German prisoners of war and their allies" I would like to say: no one invited them here! They were not obliged to feed them cookies with milk.
    If the enemy does not surrender, he is destroyed in battle.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine April 15 2021 08: 35
      +4
      Quote: Lynx2000
      Regarding the "plight of the German prisoners of war and their allies" I would like to say: no one invited them here! They were not obliged to feed them cookies with milk.

      This is how they had to be kept, the way they kept our grandfathers and fathers.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 15 2021 21: 59
      -5
      Quote: Lynx2000
      They were not obliged to feed them cookies with milk.

      )))
      We were obliged to.
      Article eleven
      The food rations of prisoners of war must be equal in quality and quantity to the rations of the troops in the barracks position.

      The prisoners are also given the opportunity to prepare their own extra food at their disposal.

      Article thirty-seven
      Prisoners of war are allowed to receive individual parcels with food and other items intended for their food and clothing. Parcels will be sent to the recipient against receipt.

      Another thing is that the USSR did not sign these conventions of yours, but observed its own pieces of paper of the same content without fanaticism. So there really were interruptions with cookies and milk.
  • Konnick
    Konnick April 15 2021 05: 32
    +8
    While on a business trip in Sarepta, in the early 2000s, with a work friend we decided to take a walk on the weekend near the Volga, at the place of its entrance to the Volga-Don canal. Walking down the street, we noticed the VolgoDonsky Canal Museum, went in, there was an elderly woman in the museum and she gave us a free tour of the museum's halls.
    The guide was Rimma Mikhailovna Edelman, the founder and director of the museum. She told about an amazing fact - in Germany there is (probably not now) a society of VolgoDon construction veterans and they periodically organize meetings and come to Sarepta. Almost all of them fought as part of engineering units and were used as specialists in captivity. I think that if they were mistreated in captivity, then they would not have
    desire to come to a meeting in Krasnoarmeisk, as the former German colony on the Volga was called in Soviet times.
  • A. Privalov
    A. Privalov April 15 2021 06: 14
    +5
    ... Not all prisoners wanted to return to Germany. Oddly enough, a significant part of them (up to 58 thousand people) expressed a desire to leave for the newly proclaimed Israel, where the future Israeli army began to form, with the help of Soviet military instructors. And the Germans significantly strengthened it at this stage.

    Oh, something new.
    The USSR did not even let Jews go to Israel, but here - 58 thousand (!) German prisoners, and even with instructors! And all this in the 50s!
    Such a number of newcomers to tiny Israel of those times could not dissolve without a trace. They had to be brought somewhere, settled, given water, fed, taught the language, employed somewhere ...
    The author, please, either tell us about this in more detail, or give at least some sources. So far, your text looks like a bad story.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine April 15 2021 08: 26
      +2
      Quote: A. Privalov
      Oh, something new.
      The USSR did not even let Jews go to Israel, but here - 58 thousand (!) German prisoners, and even with instructors! And all this in the 50s!

      In the 50s, the "necessary Jews" were not only released, but, on Stalin's orders, were sent to build a Zionist state. Some of them returned to the USSR, as a neighbor of my grandmother, returned to St. Petersburg, and most remained in Israel.
      1. A. Privalov
        A. Privalov April 15 2021 08: 32
        -3
        Quote: tihonmarine
        In the 50s, the "necessary Jews" were not only released, but, on Stalin's orders, were sent to build a Zionist state. Some of them returned to the USSR, as a neighbor of my grandmother, returned to St. Petersburg, and most remained in Israel.

        What happened to the Jews is well known to Stalin's order, excuse me. hi
        1. apro
          apro April 15 2021 08: 57
          -2
          Quote: A. Privalov
          What happened to the Jews is well known to Stalin's order, excuse me.

          Do not remind Mr. Privalov.
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine April 15 2021 09: 32
          +5
          Quote: A. Privalov
          What happened to the Jews is well known to Stalin's order, excuse me.

          Those who supported Stalin's ideas received general and officer ranks.
          By surname it will not be a comment, but a huge article, but by the number I will write.
          Jews in the command of the Soviet Army:
          Combined Generals - 92;
          aviation generals - 26;
          Artillery generals - 33;
          generals of tank forces - 24;
          generals of communications troops - 7;
          generals of technical troops - 5;
          generals of the aviation engineering service - 18;
          generals of the engineering and artillery service - 15;
          generals of tank engineering service - 9;
          engineering generals - 34;
          quartermaster generals - 8;
          generals of justice - 6;
          Admiral Engineers - 6.
          Although not all received awards, even posthumously.
          The soul of the defense of the Brest Fortress was the regimental commissar Efim Moiseevich Fomin, the author of order No. 1. Betrayed by the traitors, he was shot. The fortress became a Hero-Fortress, Fomin did not.
          1. A. Privalov
            A. Privalov April 15 2021 09: 38
            -1
            Jews in the command of the Soviet Army? At VO I was told that all Jews fought exclusively on the Tashkent front.
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine April 15 2021 10: 48
              +3
              Quote: A. Privalov
              At VO I was told that all Jews fought exclusively on the Tashkent front.
              Pilot Lydia Litvak - the record holder among women in the number of downed Nazi aircraft, died on August 1, 1943.
              Major General Semyon Alekseevich Lavochkin - General Designer of Fighters. Specialists worked with him: Taits M.A., Zaks L.A., Pirlin B.A., Zak S.L., Kantor D.I., Sverdlov I.A., Heifets N.A., Chernyakov N. S., Eskin Yu.B. General Leit Krivoshein - Commander of the 1st Mechanized Corps. Everlasting memory.
              1. A. Privalov
                A. Privalov April 15 2021 10: 58
                -3
                My God, is it really all true? You just opened my eyes! I am so grateful to you. hi
              2. Richard
                Richard April 15 2021 13: 02
                +7
                Hero of the Soviet Union Lydia Vladimirovna Litvyak - Soviet fighter pilot, the most productive female pilot of the Second World War in all official documents (birth certificate, Komsomol card, personal file, autobiography) is listed as Russian. Her father, Vladimir Anatolyevich Litvyak, was a foreman of the Moscow railway depot
                Her "Jewish origin" began to be exaggerated after the version raised by Ogonyok Korotich that Litvyak allegedly wore a "Star of David" on her plane. This is complete nonsense.
                Lidia Vladimirovna's identification mark of the ace was White Lily. No wonder the soldiers nicknamed her "The White Lily of Stalingrad"



                photo Yak-1 with numbers and emblem of L.V. Litvyak in the Aviation Museum
      2. Professor
        Professor April 15 2021 08: 34
        0
        Quote: tihonmarine
        In the 50s, the "necessary Jews" were not only released, but, on Stalin's orders, were sent to build a Zionist state.

        For example? Name, position, name of "construction of socialism"?
      3. Looking for
        Looking for April 15 2021 15: 55
        -2
        How do you know about this? Grandma's neighbor whispered?
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine April 15 2021 08: 29
      -1
      Quote: A. Privalov
      They had to be brought somewhere, settled, given water, fed, taught the language, and employed somewhere.

      Of course, a bit too much, something like 58 thousand. But there were no problems with the language, all the Galut Jews who arrived in Israel spoke Go, so the Germans had no problems at the linguistic level.
      1. A. Privalov
        A. Privalov April 15 2021 08: 35
        +2
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Of course, a bit too much, something like 58 thousand. But there were no problems with the language, all the Galut Jews who arrived in Israel spoke Go, so the Germans had no problems at the linguistic level.

        Do not fool yourself or people, my dear.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine April 15 2021 09: 34
          0
          Quote: A. Privalov
          Do not fool yourself or people, my dear.

          Here people can’t confuse their heads, but you are trying to do it all the time.
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 15 2021 06: 28
    +4
    In the diary of General Serov
    So much has been written about how the NKVD watched, so that no diaries were kept, but it seems useless. Recently, more and more literature has appeared, based on diaries, while it is indicated that they were accidentally discovered. An old technique that has been used for a long time to hide his authorship, any author, referred to the fact that it was based on a manuscript that he found, or about the events in the book, from someone he heard.
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich April 15 2021 10: 25
      0
      V.S.Bushin also kept a diary at the front. According to him, he simply did not know about the ban.
  • Unknown
    Unknown April 15 2021 07: 27
    +9
    An article with an anti-Soviet flavor. It is imperative to bring the NKVD, with terrible conditions in the camps. Yeah, in a sanatorium with enhanced nutrition for the improvement of health, it was necessary to send. The entire European part of the USSR lay in ruins thanks to them, and the author laments about the poor prisoners of war. He’ll make some kind of nonsense like ... ..Everyone knew that the former soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht were used to restore cities destroyed by the war, at Soviet construction sites and factories, but it was not accepted to talk about this ....... About whom it is not accepted if they work here next to you? Born in 1964, he began to work in practice in the 80s, when he was studying at vocational school, so at work the men showed and said at once between times that he was serving with the Germans, that one too. And they lived well under the Soviet regime, they had their own houses, and then they were paid old-age pensions. The fact that the Germans built the city, which they destroyed, everyone knew there was no secret. Used to believe my eyes
    I do not think that our prisoners received salaries from the Germans.
    Or they were packed in a grocery stall. And then, like this, shod and dressed, the lady went with suitcases.
    Good Soviet power was, oh good.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 15 2021 22: 04
      -2
      Quote: Unknown
      Or they were packed in a grocery stall. And then, like this, shod and dressed, the lady went with suitcases.

      And why not, in fact?
      Article Thirty-Four
      Prisoners of war do not receive remuneration for work related to the management, organization and maintenance of camps.

      Prisoners of war employed in other jobs are entitled to remuneration established by agreements between the belligerents.

      These agreements should establish the amount that will belong to the prisoner of war, the procedure for issuing it at his disposal during his stay in captivity, and equally the share that the camp administration will have the right to withhold.

      Pending the conclusion of the above agreements, the remuneration of prisoners of war for labor shall be determined on the following grounds:

      a) works used for the state are paid according to the military tariff in force in the national army for payment for these works, or, if it does not exist, then according to the tariff corresponding to the work performed;
      b) if the work is carried out at the expense of other state institutions or private individuals, the conditions are established by agreement with the military authorities.
      1. Unknown
        Unknown April 16 2021 03: 14
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine

        And why not, in fact?
        Article Thirty-Four
        Prisoners of war do not receive remuneration for work related to the management, organization and maintenance of camps.

        Prisoners of war employed in other jobs are entitled to remuneration established by agreements between the belligerents.

        conventions These agreements must establish the amount that will belong to the prisoner of war, the procedure for issuing it at his disposal during his stay in captivity, and equally the share that the camp administration will have the right to withhold.

        Pending the conclusion of the above agreements, the remuneration of prisoners of war for labor shall be determined on the following grounds:

        a) works used for the state are paid according to the military tariff in force in the national army for payment for these works, or, if it does not exist, then according to the tariff corresponding to the work performed;
        b) if the work is carried out at the expense of other state institutions or private individuals, the conditions are established by agreement with the military authorities.

        Of course, you can show off your knowledge of the Geneva Convention, but not in the case of Soviet prisoners of war ... Appendix to the magazine No. 39058/41 of 8.IX.41.
        Orders for the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war in all POW camps
        I. General questions of the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war

        Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of National Socialist Germany. For the first time, a German soldier faces an adversary trained not only in the military, but also in the political sense, in the spirit of destructive Bolshevism. The fight against National Socialism has been grafted into his flesh and blood. He leads it with all the means at his disposal: sabotage, corrupting propaganda, arson, murder.

        Therefore, the Bolshevik soldier lost all right to claim to be treated like an honest soldier in accordance with the Geneva Agreement. Therefore, it is fully consistent with the point of view and dignity of the German armed forces, so that every German soldier would draw a sharp line between himself and the Soviet prisoners of war ... This is how it turns out in relation to our prisoners of war, it is not appropriate to refer to this convention. And now this is ... Appendix to the Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR No. 1798-800s dated July 1, 1941.

        I. GENERAL PROVISION

        1. Prisoners of war are recognized:
        a) persons belonging to the armed forces of states in a state of war with the USSR, captured during hostilities, as well as citizens of these states interned on the territory of the USSR;
        b) persons who are part of armed detachments who do not belong to the armed forces of the enemy, if they openly carry weapons;
        c) civilians accompanying, with appropriate permission, the enemy's army and navy, such as correspondents, suppliers and other persons captured during hostilities.

        2. It is prohibited:

        a) insult prisoners of war and treat them cruelly;
        b) apply to prisoners of war measures of coercion and threats in order to obtain from them information about the situation of their country in military and other relations;
        c) to select the uniforms, underwear, shoes and other personal items, as well as personal documents and insignia, which are with the prisoners of war. Valuables and money may be confiscated from prisoners of war for storage under official receipts from authorized persons.

        3. Instructions and regulations issued by the NKVD of the USSR in the development of this provision are posted in places where they can be read by all prisoners of war. These instructions and rules, as well as orders and orders relating to prisoners of war, are announced to them in Russian and in languages ​​familiar to them ... This was our approach.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 16 2021 08: 12
          +2
          Quote: Unknown
          This is how it turns out in relation to our prisoners of war, it is not appropriate to refer to this convention

          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Another thing is that the USSR did not sign these conventions of yours, but observed its own pieces of paper of the same content without fanaticism. So there really were interruptions with cookies and milk.

          Quote: Unknown
          This was our approach.

          Yes, the NKVD was known for its humane approach.
          1. Unknown
            Unknown April 16 2021 13: 44
            +4
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Another thing is that the USSR did not sign these conventions of yours, but observed its own pieces of paper of the same content without fanaticism. So there really were interruptions with cookies and milk.

            Don't just do this, stop messing around, signing, not signing. Well Germany signed, what did it comply with? After all, Article 82 of the convention reads: "If, in case of war, one of the belligerent parties turns out to be not a party to the convention, nevertheless the provisions of such remain binding on all belligerents who have signed the convention." The goal was to destroy, the rest, verbiage. Joining the Geneva Convention gives little: "The Soviet government did not consider it necessary to do this, firstly because it joined the Hague Conference, which contains all the most important provisions as the Geneva one" Molotov7). Indeed, Geneva did not really add much. Just observance of the Hague Conference is more than enough so that the prisoners of war would not be subjected to bullying and destruction. On August 8, 1941, it was announced that “the government of the USSR will comply with the well-known international treaties concerning the law of war. But this is not important for demagogues, the main thing is that whatever the USSR does, everything is bad. I would shoot the prisoners, they would say “a bloody regime and there is nothing else to expect from it.”
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Yes, the NKVD was known for its humane approach

            And what is known about the NKVD? Do you know about the Romanian Siguranza, or the Polish Defensive. Have you heard of the Milice française, as well as Counter Intelligence Corps, CIC? Japanese, Tokubetsu koto keisatsu? What was the humane approach of the above? If you do not turn on the head, then you can swallow a completely idiotic statement by the author of the article, like this ... Each prisoner was repeatedly interrogated, the NKVD officers collected testimonies from his subordinates, residents of the occupied territories and, if evidence of involvement in crimes was found, he was awaited by a military tribunal's sentence firing squad or hard labor .. This is how many NKVD investigators with knowledge of the German language need to collect evidence, at least from 10000 thousand people? And to know the language, not with a dictionary, as they liked to say, but competently conduct an interrogation. Whoever faced this procedure at least once in his life will understand me. War criminals did not leave witnesses, and those few who miraculously managed to survive were scattered not only throughout the USSR, but also in Europe during the war years. After the war, for decades, the organs were looking for war criminals. , they did not want to make frank confessions, from the word at all. Myths about the bloody NKVD every year more and more, the reality is different.
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine April 16 2021 20: 24
              -1
              Quote: Unknown
              This is how many NKVD investigators with knowledge of the German language need to collect evidence, at least from 10000 thousand people? And to know the language, not with a dictionary, as they liked to say, but competently conduct an interrogation.

              Indeed, a task.

              What if it's easy not to do? Variantics won't work?
              Quote: Unknown
              He didn’t shoot, he showed humanity right away, bloodthirstiness appears, and reasoning, they abandoned their own people, but they are courting the Germans.

              1. Who got it?
              2. Did they really abandon their own people?
              Quote: Unknown
              On August 8, 1941, it was announced that “the government of the USSR will abide by the well-known international treaties concerning the law of war.

              And how did it comply?
              1. Unknown
                Unknown April 17 2021 06: 44
                +2
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Indeed, a task.

                What if you just don't do it? Variantics won't work?

                Well, yes, one can immediately feel the speech of a true admirer of generally accepted liberal values. Why should there be any inquiries with prisoners of war, and in general it is necessary to let them go to all four sides. And the fact that on the territory of the USSR the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and SS were engaged in war crimes, let their conscience torment, and they understand sincerely repent and realize what bad things they did. And I prefer this option ...
                Or it is possible, like the Americans, what an inquiry to the wall and the whole tale
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                1. Who got it?
                2. And they really abandoned their own

                They did not abandon their own.
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                And how did it comply?

                Of course .
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine April 17 2021 07: 49
                  -1
                  Quote: Unknown
                  Well, yes, you can immediately feel the speech of a true admirer of generally accepted liberal values.

                  Who is the true worshiper, am I?
                  Quote: Unknown
                  And I prefer this option ...

                  As if in order to hang someone, you have to bother yourself so much with the investigation.
                  Quote: Unknown
                  This is how many NKVD investigators with knowledge of the German language need to collect evidence, at least from 10000 thousand people? And to know the language, not with a dictionary, as they liked to say, but competently conduct an interrogation. Whoever has come across this procedure at least once in his life will understand me

                  We would ask him: "And your who parents?
                  What did you do to seventeenth year? "

                  Still mess with them. That one, that another - fascist muzzles.
                  Quote: Unknown
                  Or it is possible, like the Americans, what an inquiry to the wall and the whole tale

                  Yes, Americans are simple guys. One clarification - they carried out executions during the war according to the laws, so to speak, of a special period. But the USSR was already doing this in peacetime and on its territory.
                  By the way, for your reference.
                  By the end of September 1949, the operational departments of the camps had identified 37 prisoners of war who were subject to criminal prosecution.

                  According to Colonel-General of Justice A. Muranov, during the war, only military tribunals passed 2 million 530 thousand 663 sentences. At the same time, 284 thousand 344 citizens of the USSR were sentenced to capital punishment, or 8,9% of the total number of those who appeared before military tribunals.

                  In my opinion, very interesting.
                  Quote: Unknown
                  Every year there are more and more myths about the bloody NKVD, the reality is different.

                  Hmm.
                  Quote: Unknown
                  They did not abandon their own.

                  Did Gitlor read the Izvestia newspaper?
                  Quote: Unknown
                  And how did it comply?

                  Of course .

                  And what was written about the prisoners of war in peacetime?
                  1. Unknown
                    Unknown April 17 2021 12: 02
                    +2
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Who is the true worshiper, am I?

                    Well, not me.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    As if in order to hang someone, you have to bother yourself so much with the investigation.

                    It is imperative that the investigation, inquiry, etc., so that later the clever people do not speak, the Soviet government does arbitrariness without trial and investigation.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Still mess with them. That one, that another - fascist muzzles.

                    You have to tinker, again, Soviet laws require this, and they will pull accomplices behind them, it’s boring to hang alone.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Yes, Americans are simple guys. One clarification - they carried out executions during the war according to the laws, so to speak, of a special period. But the USSR was already doing this in peacetime and on its territory.
                    By the way, for your reference.
                    By the end of September 1949, the operational departments of the camps had identified 37 prisoners of war who were subject to criminal prosecution.

                    According to Colonel-General of Justice A. Muranov, during the war, only military tribunals passed 2 million 530 thousand 663 sentences. At the same time, 284 thousand 344 citizens of the USSR were sentenced to capital punishment, or 8,9% of the total number of those who appeared before military tribunals.

                    In my opinion, very interesting.

                    Interestingly, an expert on various conventions should know. International law establishes not only personal responsibility for war crimes, but also command responsibility. Article 86 I of the Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 states that the commander is responsible for violations of the conventions by subordinates if he knew about the possibility of committing crimes, but did not take the necessary measures to prevent them.

                    The statute of limitations is not applicable to war crimes (Convention on the Inapplicability of the Statute of Limitation to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, UN 1968; European Convention on the Inapplicability of the Statute of Limitation to Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes, 1974) ... ihnim. Didn't we have traitors during the war? The Germans did not lick their boots? Yes, there was enough, and even in excess. In the territories occupied by the Third Reich and its allies, there were about 70 million Soviet citizens. Military service on the side of Germany in about 1941-1945 was carried out by about 1,2. million citizens of the USSR: 400 thousand Russians (including 80 thousand in Cossack formations), 250 thousand Ukrainians, 180 thousand representatives of the peoples of Central Asia, 90 thousand Latvians, 70 thousand Estonians, 40 thousand representatives of the peoples of the Volga region, 38,5 thousand Azerbaijanis, 37 thousand Lithuanians, 28 thousand representatives of the peoples of the North Caucasus, 20 thousand Belarusians, 20 thousand Georgians, 20 thousand Crimean Tatars, 20 thousand Russian Germans and Volksdeutsche, 18 thousand Armenians, 5 thousand Kalmyks, 4,5 thousand Ingrians (mainly in the Finnish army); there is no exact data on the number of Moldovans. The work of the NKVD was above the roof, to look for who was doing what. But there were no people willing to repent and confess their sins.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Did Gitlor read the Izvestia newspaper?

                    I had to ask Goebbels for permission to print Völkischer Beobachter.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    And what was written about the prisoners of war in peacetime?

                    What should you write?
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine April 17 2021 15: 19
                      0
                      Quote: Unknown
                      Well, not me.

                      I do not know. I would test you for liberalism.
                      Quote: Unknown
                      It is imperative that the investigation, inquiry, etc., so that later the clever people do not speak, the Soviet government does arbitrariness without trial and investigation.

                      This, for example, the statement smacks of a liberal odor. When was the Soviet government worried about the accusations of the Red Terror? You might think that this is something bad.
                      Quote: Unknown
                      yes, and they will pull the accomplices behind them, it’s boring to hang alone.

                      They will hang as much as necessary, they also found a problem for me.
                      Quote: Unknown
                      Article 86 I of the Protocol to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 states that the commander is responsible for violations of the conventions by subordinates if he knew about the possibility of committing crimes, but did not take the necessary measures to prevent them.

                      You see, the Americans haven't read these conventions of yours, only comics and porn. The officers, however, were mostly university ones, but this excuse was also valid for them. The US army was a workers 'and peasants', people there are mostly simple, even too much.
                      Quote: Unknown
                      Military service on the side of Germany in about 1941-1945 was carried out by about 1,2. million citizens of the USSR

                      Again, liberalism breathed. The interpretation of the Second World War as a civil war tried to push through at one time A.I. Solzhenitsyn, it seems. It didn’t work even in the early 90s.
                      Quote: Unknown
                      I had to ask Goebbels for permission to print Völkischer Beobachter.

                      Option. But it was much wiser to turn to special organizations on this issue that could really help - the ICC, the Pope and the then neutral United States. That was done? If not, then for whom did Comrade. Molotov with his statements? Who was their reader, what conclusions was this reader supposed to draw?
                      Quote: Unknown
                      What should you write?

                      No war - no prisoners of war, it seems pretty obvious.
                      1. Unknown
                        Unknown April 17 2021 20: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I do not know. I would test you for liberalism

                        No problem, liberal - democratic values ​​are not for me, I remain with the Soviet ones, they are more to my liking.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        This, for example, the statement smacks of a liberal odor. When was the Soviet government worried about the accusations of the Red Terror? You might think that this is something bad.

                        The Soviet government, for that and the people, and she is no stranger to when they tried to hang all sorts of labels on it. The terror was responded with socialist legality. But in his youth, some people are not familiar with such a term.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        They will hang as much as necessary, they also found a problem for me.

                        No, that won't work. Hanging the first ones that came along is arbitrary, for such things the Soviet government did not pat the head, who did this himself in the near future, it was easy to be on the gallows, as already indicated, social legality was respected.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You see, the Americans haven't read these conventions of yours, only comics and porn. The officers, however, were mostly university ones, but this excuse was also valid for them. The US army was a workers 'and peasants', people there are mostly simple, even too much.

                        Yes, and we have the Red Army, it was not a bourgeoisie. But as far as possible, they tried to send the Germans and their hangers-on to the Union, where they were engaged in executions and other arts, in order to hang in public, to show the people, there is retribution, but even to future traitors you will not get away from retribution.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Again, liberalism breathed. The interpretation of the Second World War as a civil war tried to push through at one time A.I. Solzhenitsyn, it seems. It didn't work even in the early 90s

                        Yes, not liberalism, with a hint of civil, but a phenomenon called betrayal. It is necessary to understand. But the topic of betrayal is deliberately bypassed, both in the times of the late USSR and now. Why, the people to whom the Soviet government gave everything, betrayed it then, and why in 91 there were scum again, sold to the enemies of the USSR. Where did you not overlook, did not pay attention? There are no answers to these why.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Option. But it was much wiser to turn to special organizations on this issue that could really help - the ICC, the Pope and the then neutral United States. That was done? If not, then for whom did Comrade. Molotov with his statements? Who was their reader, what conclusions was this reader supposed to draw?

                        Don't talk nonsense. What is a note - the official diplomatic appeal of the government of one state to the government of another. V.M. Molotov sent all the Ambassadors and Envoys of the countries with which the USSR has diplomatic relations, a note of the following content: When not in the subject, you do not need to prove anything. Nazi Germany wanted to spit on all notes. The goal of that war was to destroy as many citizens of the USSR as possible ...
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        No war - no prisoners of war, it seems pretty obvious

                        So Kolya from Urengoy and others like him can reason. Or maybe he will also apologize for the inconvenience presented?
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 17 2021 22: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: Unknown
                        She responded to terror with socialist legality.

                        Oh yeah!
                        Quote: Unknown
                        No, that won't work. Hanging the first ones that come along is arbitrary,

                        What a tenderness.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        who did this himself in the near future, it is easy to be on the gallows

                        Death for the Motherland is sweet and beautiful.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        Note to future traitors, you will not get away from reckoning.

                        A difficult topic, you shouldn't have raised it.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        Why, the people to whom the Soviet government gave everything, betrayed it then, and why in 91 there were scum again, sold to the enemies of the USSR.

                        Because the USSR was a very rotten place, and sooner or later there were too many people who were hindered by it, and there were too few people to whom it was useful. Moreover, the higher in the system of power, the worse the proportion was for the USSR.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        What is a note - the official diplomatic appeal of the government of one state to the government of another country

                        Empty chatter, as a rule. Something like the current deep concern. And in the case of Molotov, it was not about the Germans at all. Do not surrender, children, taken prisoner - wrote comrade. Molotov in the newspaper "Izvestia" - there is nothing good there.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        The goal of that war was to destroy as many citizens of the USSR as possible.

                        Of course not. When they wanted to destroy, for example, the Jews, almost all of them were destroyed. And the goals of the USSR did not concern at all, it was a secondary theater of the Anglo-German war. At least that's how it was seen from the 41st year.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        Or maybe he will also apologize for the inconvenience presented?

                        I am much more satisfied with the current foreign policy of can-followers. It allows even Europeans to cultivate a normal, healthy attitude towards Russia and Russians.
                      3. Unknown
                        Unknown April 18 2021 07: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Oh yeah!

                        And don't hesitate.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        What a tenderness.

                        Yes, they are.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        A difficult topic, you shouldn't have raised it.

                        Nothing of the kind, there are no difficulties.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Because the USSR was a very rotten place, and sooner or later there were too many people who were hindered by it, and there were too few people to whom it was useful. Moreover, the higher in the system of power, the worse the proportion was for the USSR.

                        Being young, you don't need to talk about what you don't know, what the USSR was, and to whom and how it interfered. To our great regret, many scum bred in the Union, self-seekers who climbed to the very top, and deliberately destroyed the country.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Empty chatter, as a rule. Something like the current deep concern. And in the case of Molotov, it was not about the Germans at all. Do not surrender, children, taken prisoner - wrote comrade. Molotov in the newspaper "Izvestia" - there is nothing good there.

                        It is necessary to delve into what is written, and not grind nonsense with language. For information, who still do not know life, I explain that surrender was not welcomed in any army in the world.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Of course not. When they wanted to destroy, for example, the Jews, almost all of them were destroyed. And the goals of the USSR did not concern at all, it was a secondary theater of the Anglo-German war. At least that's how it was seen from the 41st year.

                        With such reasoning, you need to go to Echo of Moscow, there you will find understanding and support, they will tell you if, out of ignorance, inadvertently blurt out, for example, about all the destroyed Jews, and why the Second Front was called the second, and not the first. They train there.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I am much more satisfied with the current foreign policy of can-followers. It allows even Europeans to cultivate a normal, healthy attitude towards Russia and Russians.

                        But it doesn’t suit me. There has never been and never will be a healthy relationship between Europe and Russia and the Russians.
                      4. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine April 18 2021 13: 22
                        +1
                        Quote: Unknown
                        in the Union many scum bred, self-seekers who climbed to the very top, and deliberately destroyed the country.

                        Ага.
                        Consequently, something was wrong with the Soviet Union. Either there are sharply more scum than the global average, or it is much more convenient for them to destroy the country.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        For information, who still do not know life, I explain that surrender was not welcomed in any army in the world.

                        Not quite, but that's not the point. And that the statements of Comrade. Molotov was read by Soviet citizens and completely ignored by the Germans.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        With such reasoning, you need to go to Echo of Moscow, there you will find understanding and support,

                        )))
                        Not. There is a completely insane atmosphere in the comments.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        for example about all the exterminated Jews

                        And what is wrong with the Jews? It seems that you have already been told this on Echo of Moscow, this is my impression.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        why the second front was called the second and not the first. They train there.

                        Perhaps because Comrade Stalin called him that. That is how he was the fifth, but Comrade. Stalin did not know about the first three (Poland, Northern Europe 39-40, Mediterranean), so he has his own arithmetic.
                        Quote: Unknown
                        But it doesn’t suit me. There has never been and never will be a healthy relationship between Europe and Russia and the Russians.

                        Most likely, we have a different understanding of a healthy attitude towards Russia and the Russians.
                      5. Unknown
                        Unknown April 18 2021 15: 20
                        0
                        [quote = Cherry Nine] Yeah.
                        Consequently, something was wrong with the Soviet Union. Either there are sharply more scum than the global average, or it is much more convenient for them to destroy the country [/ quote]
                        Everything was in order with the Union, and there weren't very many scum, but they were in the right place, at the right time. [Quote = Cherry Nine] Not quite, but this is not the talk. And that the statements of Comrade. Molotov was read by Soviet citizens and completely ignored by the German. [/ Quote]
                        Don't make yourself look dumb. Don't get the term diplomatic note? The statements of Hitler or Ribbentrop were also cared for by the Soviet people. [Quote = Cherry Nine] No. There is a completely insane atmosphere in the comments. [/ Qu.ote]
                        Try it, you will find an understanding, you must take root. [Quote = Cherry Nine] And what is wrong with the Jews? It seems that you have already been told this on Echo of Moscow, this is my impression [/ quote]
                        A deceptive impression, but even without Echo of Moscow I knew that all the Jews were not exterminated during WWII. But you have your own information on this matter. It's time to rewrite your history to Jews, new data appeared. They will appreciate, they need new data. [Quote = Cherry Nine] Perhaps because Comrade Stalin called him that. That is how he was the fifth, but Comrade. Stalin did not know about the first three (Poland, Northern Europe 39-40, Mediterranean), so he has his own arithmetic [/ quote]
                        With your knowledge of WWII, it's time to change it all, and even Wikipedia must urgently remake the section of the Second Front in Europe, otherwise you understand how they interpret ..... Operation Overlord opened the Western (or the so-called "second" ) front in Europe in World War II ..... It was necessary to consult with you without fail, take into account your additions and comments, what a bobble came out, ah-ah. And all the memoirs and memories of famous people like these. World War II in the memoirs of W. Churchill, C. de Gaulle, C. Hull, W. Lega, D. Eisenhower. M., 1990. comp. ... Hastings M. Operation Overlord: How the Second Front Was Opened. Urgently send to the book depository, as they do not correspond to the new reality. Young man, write a book about WWII, with your vision of it, in certain circles it will be accepted with a bang. Success in work.
            2. Zakirov Damir
              Zakirov Damir April 18 2021 17: 12
              +1
              Quote: Unknown
              Military service on the side of Germany in about 1941-1945 was carried out by about 1,2. million citizens of the USSR: 400 thousand Russians (including 80 thousand in Cossack formations), 250 thousand Ukrainians, 180 thousand representatives of the peoples of Central Asia, 90 thousand Latvians, 70 thousand Estonians, 40 thousand representatives of the peoples of the Volga region, 38,5 thousand Azerbaijanis, 37 thousand Lithuanians, 28 thousand representatives of the peoples of the North Caucasus, 20 thousand Belarusians, 20 thousand Georgians, 20 thousand Crimean Tatars, 20 thousand Russian Germans and Volksdeutsche, 18 thousand Armenians, 5 thousand Kalmyks

              The data of 1 were distributed over the structure as follows:
              - 1 captured soldiers of the Red Army;
              - 196 citizens of the USSR.

              The same 1 were distributed among the connections:
              - 806 in the Wehrmacht and the military SS;
              ~ 180 in combat formations outside the Wehrmacht;
              ~ 214 in police forces in the occupied territory.

              The same 1 were distributed in terms of losses:
              - 531 died in the fight against the Red Army, with the partisans of the USSR and Europe, with the allies, and were also captured and shot by the decision of a military tribunal, mainly in 000-1942;
              - 339 were captured and convicted, mainly in 618-1944 (45 soldiers of the Red Army, 284 ordinary citizens of the USSR);
              - the rest deserted from the enemy ranks or managed to retreat beyond the line of demarcation and were not betrayed by our allies.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine April 15 2021 08: 19
    0
    some of the prisoners of war were released even at the fronts, mostly they were prisoners of war of the Romanian, Slovak and Hungarian armies, in connection with which the Germans, when captured, called a different nationality.
    The Silesian Germans also called themselves French and there was leniency towards them, and many were released at the front.
  • Avior
    Avior April 15 2021 08: 23
    0
    In captivity, 356 German prisoners died, or 700% of their number. However, according to German data, there were almost 14,9 million prisoners in the USSR. And this was due to several reasons. After the capture, not all of them ended up in the NKVD camps, at first they were held at the collection points of prisoners of war, then in temporary army camps and from where they were transferred to the NKVD. During this time, the number of prisoners decreased (executions, death from wounds, escapes, suicides, etc.)

    That is, it turns out, according to the author, to the number of deaths in captivity of 360 thousand Germans, more than a million must be added, and the mortality rate in captivity is not quite 15 percent, as he writes, but, according to the author's figures, there were 3,5 million Germans (some Germans actually write that 3,15 million), released 2 million, that is, the mortality rate is 43% (33 percent according to other sources).
    The Germans were kept in captivity, of course, far from being in sanatorium conditions, this was especially felt during the war. Cold, cramped conditions, unsanitary conditions, infectious diseases were common. The mortality rate due to malnutrition, injury and disease during the war and in the early post-war years, especially in the winter of 1945/1946, reached 70%.

    In many places, the fate remained in the industrial zone with the collective graves of German prisoners of war, the mortality rate was indeed high. In Zaporozhye, for example, there were several of them. After a while, they were dug up and taken to pits on one site in an inconspicuous place in the industrial zone of Zaporozhye, out of sight, not far from the Simferopol highway. The site turned out to be impressive. Later, the Germans themselves ennobled it and turned it into a cemetery.
    1. Yuri Tverdokhleb
      Yuri Tverdokhleb April 15 2021 22: 23
      0
      I agree with you. I will add that the Germans remained to live in the USSR.
      1. Avior
        Avior April 16 2021 05: 12
        +1
        I heard this, as well as the fact that there were former Soviet prisoners of war and Ostarbeiters who remained in Germany, although formally they did not have a choice - everyone was to be returned to the Union.
    2. Zakirov Damir
      Zakirov Damir April 15 2021 23: 46
      -1
      Quote: Avior
      That is, it turns out, according to the author, to the number of deaths in captivity of 360 thousand Germans, more than a million must be added, and the mortality rate in captivity is not quite 15 percent, as he writes, but, according to the author's figures, there were 3,5 million Germans (some Germans actually write that 3,15 million), released 2 million, that is, the mortality rate is 43% (33 percent according to other sources).

      How advanced you are!

      First, these figures include German citizens, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of European states of the Third Reich, not "exclusively Germans."

      Secondly, according to German historians, 3 - 110 of the Wehrmacht and the SS were captured by the Soviet Union. In reality, 000 were "captured and surrendered" on the Eastern Front, of which:
      - 391 exempt;
      - 51 died during the convoy phase;
      - 2 733 700 are accommodated in camps.

      Thirdly, 381 Wehrmacht soldiers died in Soviet captivity and 000 during the convoy phase. In total, 51 800 - citizens of Germany, citizens of the Third Reich outside Germany, citizens of the European states of the Third Reich, and not "exclusively Germans".

      Educate yourself, dear, and do not sculpt a gag!
      1. Avior
        Avior April 16 2021 04: 57
        +1
        Yes, I remember, an article on the site was about the allegedly Müller-Gidlebrand three times underestimated German losses.
        This is what the Mueller-Hillebrand system of falsifications is designed for, since no serious historian would believe that it is possible to stupidly, three times, underestimate the losses under the article "Killed"

        Are you the author of that creation? Then you are definitely an expert on gag.
        And as for my post, but I counted according to the figures of the author of the article, if you do not understand, in my post it is written.
        1. Zakirov Damir
          Zakirov Damir April 16 2021 11: 24
          0
          Quote: Avior

          Yes, I remember, an article on the site was about the allegedly Müller-Gidlebrand three times underestimated German losses

          Firstly, he underestimated only one of the eight balance sheet items - under the item "Killed" and strictly for that period from September 1.9.1939, 31.12.1944 to December XNUMX, XNUMX. And then German accounting "collapses" in a strange way. Although for you it seems all the same, since you do not delve into such subtleties.

          Secondly, you did not give any intelligible counter-arguments, since it seems that you have never read either M-Hillebrand, or Rudiger Overmans, or Krivosheev, or Zemskov. You represent that absolute majority on the forum, which "knows the price of everything, but is unable to evaluate anything."

          Quote: Avior
          Are you the author of that creation? Then you are definitely an expert on gag.

          A topic for thinking people, to whom you can hardly be attributed. Whoever has seriously analyzed the works of these authors at least once will immediately understand what is at stake.
          1. Avior
            Avior April 16 2021 11: 33
            -1
            if I am interested in your opinion about me, I will contact you. But so far I do not see the need and sense in this.
            I think everyone who has read your opus agrees with me.
            hi
  • Aleksandr1971
    Aleksandr1971 April 15 2021 10: 47
    -2
    I believe that for the sake of justice, all Germans should have been resettled to the Soviet Union for restoration work. And the territory of East Germany should not be divided with Poland, but annexed to the USSR. And to populate this territory with Uzbeks, other Central Asians and Caucasians.

    And the Germans, after serving their well-deserved punishment in the form of hard labor, should be resettled to Central Asia and the Caucasus.

    Then the ethnic picture of Europe would now be significantly different.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 15 2021 21: 46
      -1
      What interesting suggestions. Are you going to do some kind of feint before or after the creation of the GDR?
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar April 15 2021 10: 51
    +3
    Oddly enough, a significant part of them (up to 58 thousand people) expressed a desire to leave for the newly proclaimed Israel, where the future Israeli army began to form, with the help of Soviet military instructors. And the Germans significantly strengthened it at this stage.

    what
    For the beggarly belligerent Israel in those years, this, of course, would have been a topic, but, apart from isolated cases of Germans disguised as Jews for the sake of flight from Western Europe from any SS / Gestapo, nobody in the Promised One knows anything laughing
    As for the Soviet instructors - in Czechoslovakia, Israelis were trained to fly on a Czech replica of Meser, there were courses for military paramedics and sergeants (squad leaders). All in rather modest volumes, those who passed them were mainly Palestinian Jews, with experience of serving in the Army of Her Majesty))
    1. clerk
      clerk April 16 2021 10: 38
      0
      As for the Soviet instructors - in Czechoslovakia, Israelis were trained to fly on a Czech replica of Meser, there were courses for military paramedics and sergeants (squad leaders). All in rather modest volumes, those who passed them were mainly Palestinian Jews, with experience of serving in the Army of Her Majesty)).
      "Soviet officers created the Israel Defense Forces
      Georgy Filin
      April 2, 2014 ".
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 16 2021 13: 40
        0
        I read it - it is not true. The only Soviet soldier known in Israel in 1948 was an East German deserter. He distinguished himself by the fact that, together with a South African volunteer, he agreed to shoot from an artillery gun at the ship of the right-wing Jewish group, which, bypassing the terms of the armistice with the Arabs, transported weapons to Israel.
        Nobody knows anything about the others.
        1. clerk
          clerk April 16 2021 14: 07
          +1
          ... I read it - it is not true. The only Soviet soldier known in Israel in 1948 was an East German deserter. Nobody knows anything about the others.
          Unknown, because you don't want to know. In Israel, ideological censorship is stronger than in the Stalinist USSR and Russia in the 1990s.
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 16 2021 17: 21
            +1
            laughing
            Israel is a big village where you won't find anything, firstly, friendly to post-Soviet Russia, and secondly. Yes, and the USSR was friendly until 1953 (the doctors' case) - people from the Soviet embassy engaged in foreign intelligence wrote to Moscow that at the slightest question about the army, the Jews willingly took Russians to objects and proudly showed the squalor that they had at the beginning 50s))
        2. clerk
          clerk April 16 2021 14: 26
          0
          Even on this site in 2011 there was an article "The Soviet War of Israel's Independence."
          1. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar April 16 2021 17: 34
            +1
            Was reading. It's all bullshit. There were residents in the anti-British Jewish underground, with the formation of the IDF, all groups became part of the Israeli army, they did not hide anything from the Russians up to the case of the doctors, since the IDF was formed. considered their own country "a bridge for the Red Army in the transition from Asia to Africa."
            The entire Israeli culture of that time is a rehash of the songs of the Second World War in Hebrew, alterations of Soviet poems ala Mayakovsky, the most powerful verse of one of the most famous poets of Israel is called Stalingrad.
            But - no one had heard of Soviet military advisers. The backbone of the army was made up of locals from former partisan organizations, Jews - former servicemen of the armies of the British Union and Polish troops. The head of military training was an American Jew, Italians helped with the Navy's special forces, the pilots were mostly English-speaking mercenaries or Jews, the landing party was formed by a native of the French Legion, tank troops were British Jews, etc.
            Where the Soviet instructors were there is not clear request
            1. clerk
              clerk April 17 2021 10: 48
              +1
              ... But - no one had heard of Soviet military advisers. The backbone of the army was made up of locals from former partisan organizations, Jews - former servicemen of the armies of the British Union and the Polish troops. The head of military training was an American Jew, Italians helped with the Navy's special forces, the pilots were mostly English-speaking mercenaries or Jews, the landing party was formed by a native of the French Legion, tank troops were British Jews, etc.
              Where the Soviet instructors were there is not clear
              Yes, they were there. It's just that since the mid-50s, mentioning this in the state propaganda did not fit and was hushed up. As a matter of fact, you have presented to me these theses of the 65-year-old propaganda.
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar April 17 2021 13: 21
                +1
                What kind of propaganda? lol
                There were no them - and that's all)) it was not stupid. request And since the mid-50s, they have appeared. In Egypt. Then in Syria hi
                1. clerk
                  clerk April 17 2021 14: 07
                  +1
                  ... What kind of propaganda? lol
                  There were no them - and that's all)) it was not stupid. request And since the mid-50s, they have appeared. In Egypt. Then in Syria
                  Who are "them"? Official military experts and advisers from the SA staff? Did not have. And there were many demobilized military experts and security officers.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar April 17 2021 15: 35
                    +1
                    Chekists were at the embassy, ​​military experts - not a single memory of the war veterans of independence about them. When I asked the veterans of those events 20 years ago about the assistance to the USSR and the participation of former Soviet servicemen in the wars, the answers were as follows:
                    1) Gottwald's brigade in Czechoslovakia - the Russians helped to train the commanders of infantry squads and military paramedics, as well as to master Czech-made Messers
                    2) there were deserters from parts of the Red Army located in East Germany, but very few.
                    3) There were people from the Polish army, incl. Soviet Jews
                    4) The most common - the head of the armored units of Israel was once a physical education teacher in Sevastopol laughing
                    1. clerk
                      clerk April 17 2021 18: 57
                      +1
                      There were people from the Polish army, incl. Soviet Jews.
                      Is the Polish Army the one that was equipped, equipped, armed in the USSR and fought as part of the Red Army? And how many of them participated in the War of Independence and in what ranks?
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 17 2021 19: 03
                        -1
                        Several thousand, in low ranks in 1948 - there were very few high ranks in 1948, tk. the army has just begun
                      2. clerk
                        clerk April 17 2021 19: 51
                        +2
                        ... Several thousand
                        That is, I will not be very mistaken if I assume that 10-15% of the l / s of the Israeli Armed Forces by the beginning of the second stage of the War of Independence were former Soviet servicemen? Do you agree with this wording? (The Home Army Information Bulletin of August 12, 1944 gave the AK members the following clarification on the attitude towards the 1st Polish Army: “This is not a Polish army, but detachments of mercenaries of Polish origin in Soviet service” [14]
                        The Home Army directive No. 14 / III of August 22, 1944 contained the statement: “We do not consider the Beurling army to be a Polish army” [14].).
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 17 2021 19: 53
                        0
                        Wrong - 3-4 of the approximately 000-80 thousand Jews who fought.
                      4. clerk
                        clerk April 18 2021 09: 09
                        0
                        ... if I assume that 10-15% of the l / s of the Israeli Armed Forces by the beginning of the second stage of the War of Independence were former Soviet servicemen? //////// Wrong - 3-4 out of about 000-80 thousand Jews who fought.
                        By the beginning of the second stage of the war, the number of the Israeli Armed Forces was 45-50 thousand. But okay. Another question is how many of the 100 thousand Jews who participated in the war had combat or at least army experience of the Second World War?
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 18 2021 11: 32
                        0
                        No more than 15 - 20 thousand for the entire period of hostilities.
                        In March 1949, the number of Jews who fought was 115 thousand people. hi
                      6. clerk
                        clerk April 18 2021 12: 02
                        0
                        .No more than 15 - 20 thousand for the entire period of hostilities.
                        In March 1949, the number of Jews who fought was 115 thousand people.
                        Rather, those who were in the Armed Forces and all paramilitary formations. But in any case, it turns out that the share of former Soviet fighters and commanders in the total number of Israeli soldiers with military and military experience was about 20% and was equal to the number of all foreign volunteers combined.
                      7. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 18 2021 12: 58
                        0
                        There were no more paramilitaries, there was the IDF, where they all entered.
                        There were about 4 thousand foreign (English-speaking and veterans of the French IL) volunteers on the front line, 3-4 thousand people from the Polish Army were considered, in contrast to them, ordinary emigrants. As well as a couple of thousand fought American, British, South African and Canadian Jews who settled in Israel.
                        There were no VP veterans in command positions, the total number did not exceed the number of Anders army veterans.
                      8. clerk
                        clerk April 18 2021 14: 17
                        +1
                        .
                        On September 1, 1942, the evacuation of Anders 'army was completed ....... Later, parts of Anders' army were withdrawn from Iran to Iraq and Palestine [22] ......
                        The national composition of Anders' army was heterogeneous: in addition to the Poles, a large number of Rusyns, Ukrainians and Belarusians, as well as about 4 thousand Jews, served in it. After the Anders army was relocated to Palestine at the end of 1942, about 3 of the Jews serving in the army left the army and remained in Palestine.
                      9. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 18 2021 16: 04
                        0
                        This means that the Soviet "Poles" were about 3 thousand
                      10. clerk
                        clerk April 18 2021 16: 39
                        +1
                        there were about 3 thousand Soviet "Poles"].
                        Maybe. True, they had more military experience than three months from Iran to Palestine protecting pipelines.
                      11. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar April 18 2021 17: 13
                        0
                        In Italy, too, they fought with the Wehrmacht, but not the point.
                        The servicemen of the Polish Army had more experience, of course, one of them later became an Israeli colonel, but there were no high-ranking instructors among them. Fighters - definitely
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 April 15 2021 11: 44
    +2
    From 1943 to 1948, 11403 prisoners of war escaped from the camps, 10445 were detained, 958 people were killed and 342 prisoners managed to escape.

    Where did the author get such data is interesting. According to Isaev, about 700 escapes from the camps were recorded. And after 45, where could the Germans have escaped?
    1. Looking for
      Looking for April 15 2021 15: 59
      -1
      yes, the author can see a good brainwashed in the SBU.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin April 15 2021 13: 48
    +2
    I had to communicate with people in contact with the captured Germans. In childhood. Judging by the stories, those worked from dawn to dusk
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar April 15 2021 13: 54
      -1

      ? MEK S laughing
      ? IMATSELGEB S
    2. Looking for
      Looking for April 15 2021 16: 01
      -1
      probably as a child you were fluent in German ???
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin April 15 2021 19: 10
        +1
        People with whom I spoke on this topic as children communicated with those Germans. Most often they teased and annoyed them in every way. But this, even without knowledge of German, allowed them to see that prisoners of war worked a lot. Literally.
  • Non-fighter
    Non-fighter April 15 2021 21: 25
    +2
    The mortality rate due to malnutrition, injury and disease during the war and in the early post-war years, especially in the winter of 1945/1946, reached 70%. Only in subsequent years this figure was reduced. In Soviet camps, 14,9% of prisoners of war died.

    What is it like ? 70% or 14% please decide.
    About work. There was an article somewhere that a qualified German earned more than a guard (!!!) and the guard shot cigarettes from the German.
    At his former job, one of our employees told how two captured Germans were sent to the grandfather, the chairman of the collective farm near Tver. The guys are golden hands, one is a mechanic, the other is an electrician.
    This is a fact about houses in Krasnogorsk. An entire neighborhood with a "German accent". It can be seen that the architect is also German.
    1. Avior
      Avior April 16 2021 05: 25
      0
      The Germans received a symbolic salary
      Private and junior commanders were paid 7 rubles a month, officers - 10, colonels - 15, generals - 30 rubles.

      There could be small surcharges for overfulfillment of the production rate yet.
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 April 16 2021 05: 49
    +2
    Quote: Cherry Nine

    Another thing is that the USSR did not sign these conventions of yours, but observed its own pieces of paper of the same content without fanaticism. So there really were interruptions with cookies and milk.

    Article 82 of the Convention you are referring to reads:
    The provisions of this convention must be respected by the high contracting parties in all circumstances. If in case of war one of the belligerents is not party to the convention, nevertheless, its provisions remain binding on all belligerents who have signed the convention.

    What does it mean? Don't you need to explain? Germany is a party to the Convention, which entered into force on June 19, 1931, and is obliged to treat prisoners of war of the Soviet Union in the same way as with prisoners of war of the participating countries.
    Japan is a signatory to the Convention. However, these military personnel, and other citizens of these countries, committed horrible military crimes.

    Do you really have "Jesuit logic" ?! In any case, in the Soviet Union, no one gassed prisoners of war in ovens, they did not burn them, in contrast to the state policy of Nazi Germany to exterminate not "Aryans" ...

    If you were a soldier, you must imagine that a prisoner of war as well as service - there are hardships and hardships, sanatorium conditions are not provided.
    1. Avior
      Avior April 16 2021 07: 50
      +2
      In fact, according to the decision of the Nuremberg Tribunal, the implementation of the provisions of the conventions and prisoners of war and according to the laws and customs of war is mandatory for all parties, regardless of whether they signed or not, since the provisions of the conventions are generally accepted rules.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 16 2021 08: 22
      +2
      Quote: Lynx2000
      Do you really have "Jesuit logic" ?! In any case, in the Soviet Union, no one gassed prisoners of war in ovens, they did not burn them, in contrast to the state policy of Nazi Germany to exterminate not "Aryans" ...

      I love it when the defenders of the USSR, in a polemical frenzy, begin to compare it with the Reich. Say, the Reich did not do that. Yes, I did. So what?
      Quote: Lynx2000
      Article 82 of the Convention you are referring to reads

      Yes, you quoted correctly. Based on this article, Nuremberg charged the Reich with war crimes on the Eastern Front. However, I pointed out in the passage you quoted that the USSR had no obligations under the Geneva Convention. I also wrote that the actions of the USSR in this area, nevertheless, caused him some image inconvenience. Still, people are non-Russian, foreign, they have among themselves raids with the capture of slaves after Rome were not accepted.
      1. Korax71
        Korax71 April 16 2021 08: 54
        0
        Well, if the question with the Germans at least somehow you can try to explain their war crimes, then it is not entirely clear what they were doing in Manchuria from August 16 to September? request
        1. clerk
          clerk April 16 2021 10: 28
          +1
          ... Well, if the question with the Germans can somehow be explained by their war crimes, then it is not entirely clear what they were doing in Manchuria from August 16 to September
          ... Who was engaged - the captured Germans?
          1. Korax71
            Korax71 April 16 2021 10: 39
            0
            no.rkka. where did 600k + Japanese prisoners come from, or did they also commit war crimes against the USSR and destroy its infrastructure?
            1. clerk
              clerk April 16 2021 12: 17
              0
              .net.rkka. where did 600k + Japanese prisoners come from, or did they also commit war crimes against the USSR and destroy its infrastructure?
              What has the Japanese war crimes to do with it? They were captured as a result of the lost war ..
              1. Korax71
                Korax71 April 16 2021 14: 30
                0
                up to 56 years old? It is very interesting what was the motivation behind this, Japan, having signed the Potsdam Declaration, unconditionally surrendered. For the Japanese military who surrendered their weapons, the declaration assumed the possibility of returning to their homeland and leading a peaceful life, the only exceptions were war criminals. So it turns out that either in Soviet captivity completely and there were war criminals nearby, or request further you can call it whatever you like.
                1. clerk
                  clerk April 16 2021 15: 21
                  +1
                  up to 56 years old? It is very interesting what was the motivation for this, Japan, having signed the Potsdam Declaration, surrendered unconditionally. For the Japanese military who surrendered their weapons, the declaration assumed the possibility of returning to their homeland and leading a peaceful life, the only exceptions were war criminals. So it turns out that either in Soviet captivity completely there were war criminals nearby, whether.
                  Number of repatriated Japanese prisoners: year number of notes
                  1946 18 616
                  1947 166 240
                  1948 175 000
                  1949 97 000. In 1956 a maximum of several thousand war criminals could remain. Or do you consider only war criminals who committed crimes against the USSR in 1945, "art" in China or in the Soviet Far East in the years of the Civil War type is no longer a crime?
              2. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine April 16 2021 20: 11
                +2
                Quote: clerk
                They were captured as a result of the lost war ..

                You see what a problem. No one can be captured after the war... Prisoners of war are a consequence of hostilities. The hostilities are over - there are no more prisoners of war.

                But what is their status in the USSR in this case - you need to look.
                Quote: clerk
                1947 166 240
                1948 175 000
                1949 97 000

                And what did all these people do in the USSR for 2, 3, 4 years? On what basis were they in the USSR?
                Quote: clerk
                art "in China or in the Soviet Far East in the years of the Civil War type is no longer a crime?

                Of course not. The mention of the DDA is especially touching. It has been four years that they have been looking for who in the Kwantung Army outraged in the FER 20 years ago? Maybe the Soviet comrades found the FER itself? Not all the bosses of this project were shot by the 45th year?
                1. clerk
                  clerk April 19 2021 18: 34
                  0
                  They were captured as a result of the lost war ..

                  You see what a problem. No one can be captured as a result of the war. Prisoners of war are a consequence of hostilities. The hostilities are over - there are no more prisoners of war.
                  > 1,5 million. French prisoners of war with you would hardly have spoken.
                  And what did all these people do in the USSR for 2, 3, 4 years? On what basis were they in the USSR?
                  Only in the USSR? Or is it on the territory of the allied USSR China?
                  art "in China or in the Soviet Far East in the years of the Civil War type is no longer a crime?

                  Of course not. The mention of the DDA is especially touching. It has been four years that they have been looking for who in the Kwantung Army outraged in the FER 20 years ago?
                  Perhaps the Chinese comrades were looking for those who misbehaved on Chinese territory 10 years ago?
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine April 16 2021 19: 50
          +1
          Quote: Korax71
          explain them by war crimes

          How? A war crime is an individual thing, a court is required there. Whom the USSR had time to sue in the most humane court in the world - the same Hartmann - was bullied until the mid-50s, until the time came to put up with Adenauer.
          Quote: Korax71
          what did you do in Manchuria

          The racial bonus of the USSR is the ability to take prisoners of war in peacetime.
      2. clerk
        clerk April 16 2021 16: 58
        +2
        .After all, people are non-Russian, foreign, they had raids with the capture of slaves between them after Rome were not accepted.
        Sure. They felt that it was more profitable to just breed slaves like livestock.
      3. mat-vey
        mat-vey April 17 2021 14: 57
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        I love it when the defenders of the USSR, in a polemical frenzy, begin to compare it with the Reich. Say, the Reich did not do that. Yes, I did. So what?

        I signed it, but did it, but the USSR didn’t sign it, but it didn’t do it ..
  • clerk
    clerk April 16 2021 10: 26
    +1
    .Not all the prisoners wanted to return to Germany. Oddly enough, a significant part of them (up to 58 thousand people) expressed a desire to leave for the newly proclaimed Israel, where the future Israeli army began to form, with the help of Soviet military instructors. And the Germans significantly strengthened it at this stage.
    58 thousand directly from the USSR to Israel? And in what year did this happen?
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 April 16 2021 11: 15
    -1
    Quote: Cherry Nine

    However, I pointed out in the passage you quoted that the USSR had no obligations under the Geneva Convention. I also wrote that the actions of the USSR in this area, nevertheless, caused him some image inconvenience. Still, people are non-Russian, foreign, they have among themselves raids with the capture of slaves after Rome were not accepted.

    I do not see any connection with the Convention under discussion in the quotation of a fragment of this article quoted by me. The meaning of the above quotation, my explanations were different ... I don't see any connection.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine April 16 2021 20: 12
      0
      Quote: Lynx2000
      I don’t see the connection.

      I, too, must admit, have lost the thread of conversation with you.
  • NF68
    NF68 April 16 2021 16: 44
    +3
    In the USSR, prisoners were not starved as much as in German concentration camps.
    1. xorek
      xorek April 17 2021 16: 28
      +2
      Quote: NF68
      In the USSR, prisoners were not starved as much as in German concentration camps.

      They even felt sorry for them .. Russia is a good soul and we quickly forget evil .. But in vain !!!!
      PS I read the memoirs of some of the surviving "warriors", and so, the most interesting thing in their memoirs they felt sorry for the Jews, supposedly we shouldn't have them .. But the Slavic population and Russians described in detail how they were crushed from machine guns and what animals they were, etc. etc. .. Here are the bastards! soldier
  • Yuriy71
    Yuriy71 April 16 2021 21: 17
    +2
    They deserve it! And, "Koli from Urengoy" will now raise a howl and begin to feel sorry for the "unfortunate" fascists!
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey April 17 2021 05: 55
      +1
      Quote: Yuriy71
      And, "Koli from Urengoy" will now raise a howl and pity the "unfortunate" fascists!

      Lessons from the past
      Andrey Shigin

      Let's forget the lessons of the past
      And we will begin to treat everyone like people:
      Let's describe it lyrically, without unnecessary anger,
      Mutual tenderness of Adolf and Eve,
      Let us shed a tear, sighing in sorrow
      About the ardent love of the commandant of Dachau.
      Imagine - soldiers from concentration camp towers
      Appreciated art, loved children,
      And he was not deprived of the gift of poetry
      A simple machine gunner from Babi Yar ...

      But only then you don't need to be surprised,
      Where did the assault squads come from?
      Why are our children in a single column
      Walking through the streets with their palms uplifted,
      And after a little while
      They sent gypsies and Jews into the ovens,
      And everything that is "de facto", as well as "de jure" -
      The newly-minted Fuhrer decides for us.
      And our days with the taste of camp dust -
      For forgetting the lessons of the past ...

      2014
  • xorek
    xorek April 17 2021 16: 26
    0
    Well, the Germans worked their way with us .. A lot of people died, and in the USSR all the people were starving, the devastation of half of the country was destroyed by them .. Let them say thank you for letting go of the "superhumans" instead of rotting in the camps .. soldier Our compassionate population still felt sorry for them, in which almost every family has a dead.
    That's how we live ! Although many of these prisoners in their memoirs poured dirt on Russia ...