Military Review

Rogozin criticized the Ministry of Defense for the purchase of military equipment

352
7-th International exhibition "Russian Defense Expo 2012", held in Nizhny Tagil, were able to visit about 25 thousands of people. One of these 25 thousands was Deputy Prime Minister of Russia Dmitry Rogozin, who oversees the military-industrial complex. This, by the way, is the only Russian official of such a high level who took the time to get acquainted with the samples of military equipment displayed at the test site and in specially equipped premises.

Initially, the organizers said that the Russian president should arrive at Expo 2012, but then it turned out that Vladimir Putin had canceled his visit. Surrounded by the president, the cancellation of the visit was connected with the preparation of Putin for the APEC summit in Vladivostok.

Rogozin criticized the Ministry of Defense for the purchase of military equipment


In total, during the exhibition, 253 products of various enterprises were demonstrated, most of which represented the Russian Federation. If we talk about foreign participation, the 3 countries acted as direct participants of the Expo-2012 in Nizhny Tagil and another 28 states sent their own, let's say, observers.

The past exhibition of many experts has caused very ambiguous comments. On the one hand, there was optimism about the fact that there are more and more domestic samples of military equipment and dual-use equipment at Russian international exhibitions. On the other hand, the experts expressed the opinion that interest in such events from foreign companies is falling, and the equipment developed abroad and displayed at such exhibitions is not distinguished by high quality and reliability.

Dmitry Rogozin expressed similar thoughts, saying that the exhibition demonstrated a systematic increase in the quality of domestic products from the defense industry, what should be paid attention to when purchasing equipment for various units of the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia. At the same time, the Deputy Prime Minister blamed the Russian generals for the fact that they too often began to travel over foreign Eskpo counterparts and bring out ideas about mass purchases of foreign equipment, although instead of generals, in his opinion, Russian designers should be able to better assess the quality foreign samples. And with these words, Rogozin is difficult to argue. Although many believe that there is nothing wrong in buying foreign copies of military equipment.

At the same time, the majority of Russians who are interested in the state of affairs in the domestic military-industrial complex have in their memory the words of federal officials that only single technical samples will be purchased for the needs of the Russian army, with advanced samples in its class. However, this bureaucratic promise is still far from its real embodiment into reality.

If you pay attention to those samples of military equipment that are either already purchased from foreign companies or can be purchased in the near future, then many questions arise questions.

The first question concerns Israeli drones, for the delivery of which to Russia the Ministry of Defense managed to conclude a contract. As soon as this contract was signed, some representatives of the Israeli side immediately stated that they did not intend to transfer new technologies to Russia. In particular, Amos Gilad, the director of the Israeli military-political service at the Ministry of Defense, said this at the time. In particular, Gilad said that Russia receives from the company Israel Aerospace Industries an unmanned aerial vehicle Sercher-2, which is manufactured according to technologies developed in the early 80-s. Therefore, it is impossible to say that Israel is transferring new technologies to Russia. Well, if the Israelis themselves say so, the situation with the purchase of technology from this country looks rather strange ... In total, the Ministry of Defense acquired the Israeli side of 12 UAV BirdEye-400, Searcher II, and I-View Mk150. Then agreements were signed on buying from Israel more 36 drones. But this was not limited to the Russian Defense Ministry: it was decided to increase the fleet of UAVs with 15 vehicles.

The contract cost the Russian Ministry of Defense 400 millions of dollars, but this is the amount that went only to pay the Israeli side. Due to the fact that the experts of the Kazan Helicopter Plant will deal with the Israeli unmanned "old men" Searcher II to bring the mind to the platform, you can safely increase this amount n times, since the Defense Ministry intends to receive only its own drone using Israeli technology . Recall, technology is not advanced, because the Searcher II was put into operation in Israel itself back in the 1998 year.

The second question concerns the purchase of "single" samples of foreign armored vehicles. Here we are talking about the purchase, and then about the production on the territory of Russia of Italian Iveco LMV M65 Lynx armored vehicles, which we have already received the name “Lynx”. True, here it is necessary to immediately note that even from the outset, there was no talk of a domestic product about single purchases and production based on these purchases. Initially, the Ministry of Defense decided to produce 727 machines, and now they are talking about the need to increase the production of Italian “Rysya” to 3 thousand units. It would seem, well, is there such a thing if an armored car is reliable ... Why reinvent the wheel if you can just make it under a foreign license? But the thing is that the “Lynx” armored car doesn’t differ by great reliability. The “Lynx” began to show its clumsiness immediately from the moment of its first appearance in Russia. It turned out that for her the snow-covered terrain is a serious obstacle, and there is no reason to speak about the terrain. So at the recently held “Lynx” forum in the city of Zhukovsky “Technologies in mechanical engineering-2012”, they drove exclusively on flat platforms, so as not to damage the crankcase ... such serious quantities (3000 pieces), began to express clearly skeptical opinions.

It is this mediocre quality of purchased weapons and military technology of foreign production that made Rogozin launch several critical arrows at the Russian Defense Ministry. Many have already managed to christen the words of the vice-premier that it is high time to start paying attention to the development of the domestic sphere of the military-industrial complex, as opposed to purchases of frankly low-quality foreign technology, a serious attack on Anatoly Serdyukov. However, it must be recalled that the main initiator of the purchase of military equipment from foreign manufacturers was Dmitry Medvedev, who at that time held the presidency. But only Medvedev then talked about purchases quality military equipment and, as he put it, at transparent prices. Anatoly Serdyukov, in his usual manner, decided to partially fulfill Medvedev's requirements: foreign equipment, indeed, began to buy, but legends can be made about its quality ... As for the transparency of the pricing policy, things are not going well. Hundreds of millions of dollars for Israeli 30 ideas a year ago can hardly be called an adequate price.

In general, the question of manning the park with new military equipment for the army and fleet, remains at the stage of debate. If this debate is too long, the Ministry of Defense will continue to spend millions on foreign samples of dubious quality. True, to say that absolutely all domestic military equipment has a phenomenal quality, today, unfortunately, also impossible. Where is she, this golden mean? ..
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  1. GG2012
    GG2012 28 August 2012 09: 30
    +15
    "...Anatoly Serdyukov In his usual manner, he decided to partially fulfill Medvedev's requirements: it is true that they buy steel for foreign equipment, but legends can be made about its quality, as they say ... And with the transparency of the pricing policy, somehow not everything goes well. Hundreds of millions of dollars for Israeli ideas 30 years ago can hardly be called an adequate price ... "

    And Taburetkin is waiting for the years of torment in the GRUSHNY dungeons.
    Kvachkova will be released, and Taburetkin will be imprisoned.
    1. vadimus
      vadimus 28 August 2012 09: 35
      +9
      Of course you have to do your own thing. It’s useless to count on uncle. Moreover, if that uncle doesn’t love Russia too much. And to put it mildly ....
      1. Alan
        Alan 28 August 2012 11: 57
        +7
        vadimus, "It's useless to count on your uncle" uh
        I would even say criminally, with all the ensuing consequences.
    2. kotdavin4i
      kotdavin4i 28 August 2012 10: 07
      +13
      Quote: GG2012
      And Taburetkin is waiting for years of torment in the GRI

      Your words to God in the ears ... hi
    3. Hon
      Hon 28 August 2012 11: 11
      +10
      Yeah, schazzz !!! The GRU is subordinate to Taburetkin, and the current president has family ties))) Has anyone planted Chubais? He is still in chocolate!
      1. nycsson
        nycsson 28 August 2012 13: 51
        0
        Quote: Hon
        Yeah, schazzz !!! The GRU is subordinate to Taburetkin, and the current president has family ties))) Has anyone planted Chubais? He is still in chocolate!

        They are all there tied with one rope! It doesn’t work in any other way! No logic ......
      2. rolik
        rolik 30 August 2012 11: 04
        0
        Chubais, if planted, then only ... oh on the count.
    4. minister
      minister 28 August 2012 11: 20
      -4
      4 normal people in our misery are Putin, Medvedev, Shoigu and Rogozin, these people always know what they say and how to do it, the rest pretend that they work. Same as Serdyukov, well, there’s no more way for us to do this, so take it and get it working, Thank God there are grandmothers; no, you need to damn yourself and take garbage. What kind of person.
      1. Letun
        Letun 28 August 2012 16: 53
        +7
        Quote: ministr
        4 normal people in our Providence is Putin, Medvedev

        Putin and Medvedev are the 2 highest posts in the state. Medvedev formed a cabinet, and Putin approved it. When will you stop believing in this good tale of a good president and premiere; and bad, corrupt officials?
        1. vezunchik
          vezunchik 28 August 2012 19: 39
          0
          And he has such a job - to write not what he thinks laughing
        2. 28 August 2012 21: 59
          +2
          Quote: Letun
          Putin and Medvedev are the 2 highest posts in the state. Medvedev formed a cabinet, and Putin approved it. When will you stop believing in this good tale of a good president and premiere; and bad, corrupt officials?

          And when will you already begin to understand that politics is a very complicated thing, requiring compromises and mutual concessions? When will you finally begin to understand that our power is inherently not homogeneous, that it has both a liberal left wing, people connected with the world behind the scenes who cannot be dismissed just like that, true statesmen, patriots of their country? I always give an example of Litvinov M.M. Minister of Foreign Affairs under Stalin. The same Chubais of our time. Maybe Stalin was a traitor?
          Start thinking already !!!!
          1. soldat1945
            soldat1945 28 August 2012 23: 27
            +3
            Kos, why did you drag Litvinov and Stalin? Do not confuse God's gift with fried eggs, an anti-people government with the builders of the empire!
          2. Letun
            Letun 29 August 2012 10: 47
            -1
            Churchill's time-worn phrase: "Stalin took over the country with a plow, but gave it up with an atomic bomb"
            Putin took the country in a position much betterthan poverty and hunger of 1924, and what do we see in 12 years? We can’t put the satellite into orbit. Education? Medicine? I do not want to delve into this nonsense that you wrote
            Quote: kos
            And when will you already begin to understand that politics is a very complicated thing, requiring compromises and mutual concessions? When you finally begin to understand that our power is inherently not homogeneous, what it has as a liberal left wing

            Christ said: “Recognize every deed by its fruits, a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good, so can human deeds.” And what kind of fruits we see now. Yes, Putin is a handsome, charismatic person, when he is shown on TV he makes an impression, but what are the fruits of his 12 years of work? All the illusory successes that narrow-minded patriots are trying to attribute to him are the consequence of the formula $ 115 / barrel. And if it is like under Yeltsin 10?
            1. rolik
              rolik 30 August 2012 11: 13
              0
              Putin accepted the state in such a frankly ... state that one can simply wonder how it was possible to rectify the situation. Just do not say that under Yeltsin there was Turkish delight, and it was precisely with him that there was a complete and hopeless well ... pa. Or there are those who can say that we ate with a drunk from gold ??? Then they either had a short memory, or under Putin they took away everything that had been acquired by hard and overwhelming labor under Yeltsin.
            2. shkodnik
              shkodnik 28 September 2012 22: 36
              0
              Putin is a handsome, charismatic man,
              this is only compared to the sick and drunk Yeltsin, and so nothing special
          3. rolik
            rolik 30 August 2012 11: 08
            0
            Any policy pursued by the first persons of the state should be aimed, first of all, at the development and prosperity of this state (in other words, its citizens).
      2. vezunchik
        vezunchik 28 August 2012 19: 38
        0
        However, comrade, you are a comedian. Okay, Zadornov would say that ...
    5. Alone
      Alone 28 August 2012 13: 14
      +3
      As if Serdyukov is an independent figure and acts without a pointer from above.
    6. Strategia
      Strategia 28 August 2012 19: 14
      0
      What kind of dungeons are these in the GRU?
      1. slav4ikus
        slav4ikus 29 August 2012 12: 53
        0
        and this is from illiteracy
    7. INTER
      INTER 29 August 2012 08: 11
      0
      Nor can they find an adequate professional employee in the Ministry of Arr. Take the same Serdyukov. I never saw him in uniform.))) belay And they are lobbying the West because ours do not give them bribes for orders like foreign colleagues. It's like a Mercedes for government officials, remember there was a scandal about bribery?
      1. rolik
        rolik 30 August 2012 11: 14
        0
        Cadres decide everything drinks
    8. sea
      sea 30 August 2012 09: 30
      0
      fresh tradition, but hard to believe. there is so much dough stuffed that you can probably equip a fully motorized rifle unit.
    9. rolik
      rolik 30 August 2012 11: 02
      0
      If they were waiting, then everyone would be only FOR !. And in the real life of this scoop, a new house on the shores of the warm sea or a chalet in the mountains can wait, well, an honorable retirement with a very good retirement. And this fact is very depressing sad
  2. klimpopov
    klimpopov 28 August 2012 09: 34
    +13
    It seems that Rogozin and the Ministry of Defense live in different states and criticize each other.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 28 August 2012 09: 38
      -1
      look at the history of the creation of any military equipment, any plane / tank goes through a bunch of obstacles, the military wants one thing, the designers do the other, the manufacturers can do the third.
      1. klimpopov
        klimpopov 28 August 2012 09: 42
        0
        If I noticed, I said a few things about something else, about the fact that the tank passes, I know ...
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 28 August 2012 09: 50
          0
          and I'm talking about criticism, only before she was in the offices, and now in the newspapers
      2. Bronis
        Bronis 28 August 2012 09: 53
        +5
        So here we are not talking about the creation of new technology, but about the purchase of something unknown abroad at very ambiguous prices. Moreover, it is difficult to call these purchases really "advanced". Seriously, is Russia really unable to independently develop an armored car or a light reconnaissance UAV, or even the notorious wheeled "tank"? Of course, there are problems, but they are completely surmountable. And they collect more complex equipment from us. So the question here is rather in the behind-the-scenes games of the Ministry of Defense, the division of spheres of influence and control of financial flows. And Rogozin, in fact, is Serdyukov's boss. It is alarming that very often the words of the General Staff officers, Serdyukov and Rogozin are not very consistent with each other, and sometimes they openly contradict ...
        1. klimpopov
          klimpopov 28 August 2012 10: 15
          0
          Here, here I am about the same only fit into one sentence and you deployed. In general, there is a feeling that it is not Russia that needs to be bought, but sold to Europe.
        2. Evil Tatar
          Evil Tatar 28 August 2012 11: 35
          +10
          Quote: Bronis
          Seriously, is Russia really unable to independently develop an armored vehicle or a light reconnaissance UAV, or even the notorious wheeled "tank"?

          There is nothing to talk about ... Surnames of figures preparing such contracts in the studio! And then on the bench of the fairest court ...
          We have everything and "Wolves" with "Tigers" and UAVs, which have been developing since the 70s, and a base for creating wheeled tanks ...

          It's just that it became troublesome to squeeze out kickbacks from our production workers, because in the wake of the smell of war, they began to understand, and many have always understood before that our Russia would not be able to get along with these "neo-patriots" of their estates ... to put our home front workers (i.e. us in their person) in a stall, where, in their opinion, there is a place for such cattle as we (i.e. the people) ...

          Yesterday, who was looking at the NTV program "Russia-Total Eclipse"?
          The nnnada of these ghouls, in which their eyes glow after taking medicine made from our unborn children, should be revealed and put on a stake so that even before us (if they suddenly conquer by their grace) they would join fagotistic values ​​so that they would know what they were for. ..ope will then be really needed.

          PS: And Sobchak, after the light went out, specifically his eyes shone .... Oooo ... oo-oo-oo-oo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o ...
        3. vezunchik
          vezunchik 28 August 2012 19: 41
          0
          but good kickbacks ...
    2. Skiff
      Skiff 28 August 2012 10: 17
      +6
      Incidentally, this is the only Russian official of such a high level who took the time to get acquainted with samples of military equipment
      Yes, it feels like Rogozin is one of the few men left in the government, any man should be interested in military affairs, military equipment is beautiful, beautiful and interesting, this is the shield and sword of our Motherland! And gentlemen, officials could at least pretend that they are interested, although would like to visit our stands as an advertisement.
      1. Bronis
        Bronis 28 August 2012 12: 38
        +2
        Rogozin has such an image, it was not for nothing that he was the plenipotentiary envoy to NATO. His visits to military-industrial complex enterprises and exhibitions look logical. If Serdyukov also drives, then he will not cause anything but irritation. Too often, what an "effective manager" he is. I don’t remember any other Defense Minister provoking such a reaction ...
      2. Letun
        Letun 28 August 2012 16: 57
        0
        Quote: Skiff
        And gentlemen, officials could at least pretend that they are interested

        No, they are too honest and decent to be a hypocrite. lol
    3. vezunchik
      vezunchik 28 August 2012 19: 40
      0
      So we have democracy! Speak and think what you want, but do what you command
  3. Stas57
    Stas57 28 August 2012 09: 35
    -1
    In this matter, you must always carefully understand.
    Swing checkers, take one of the sides, etc., IMHO unreasonable.
    And the production workers and customers are no longer the same as in the USSR (although even then there were "graters", but without unnecessary people), everyone bends his own line, everyone has their own interests
    1. Strategia
      Strategia 28 August 2012 19: 21
      0
      Is it like: "taking one of the parties ... unreasonable"? It turns out, both yours and ours. And this is called "double-dealing", in other words - prostitution))) It is not shameful or shameful to have your own opinion and defend it. Only it must be defended convincingly and reasonably.
  4. posad636
    posad636 28 August 2012 09: 43
    +1
    From what is known about the activities of Rogozin, one can make an unambiguous conclusion - this is the second Ustinov D.F. He did a lot for the Army and Navy.
    Designers Rogozin satisfied
    1. DIMS
      DIMS 28 August 2012 09: 53
      +2
      From what is known about the activities of Rogozin, one can make an unambiguous conclusion - this is the second Ustinov D.F. He did a lot for the Army and Navy.

      Ustinov also lobbied for the supply of obsolete and unnecessary equipment to the troops?


      Designers Rogozin satisfied

      Rather, not the designers, but the management of defense industry enterprises. And it’s quite understandable what you’re satisfied with
      1. Armata
        Armata 28 August 2012 10: 07
        +4
        Quote: posad636
        Designers Rogozin satisfied
        Exactly. Only design bureaus are happy with it since it gave the green light to all new developments. Only now we are working more on a shelf than for the army. 100500 reasons are born why the new is not allowed to go into production. But the real reason is one. New is more expensiveand, as a result, the factory has less exhaust since the budget of the Moscow Region pays a certain amount of money and then does not increase it, and it’s hard to break the inertness of our Moshniks.
        1. posad636
          posad636 28 August 2012 10: 31
          -2
          Yes, you don’t know anything at all! Just whining
      2. posad636
        posad636 28 August 2012 10: 30
        -7
        Give an example. And one more thing: are you a military man or a loser, of whom a whole herd grazes here?
        1. Armata
          Armata 28 August 2012 10: 34
          +2
          Quote: posad636
          Yes, you don’t know anything at all! Just whining

          Who are you?
        2. DIMS
          DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 35
          0
          Example? BMPT. Few?
          1. posad636
            posad636 28 August 2012 10: 48
            0
            Who are you? I am a colonel. I, you?
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 49
              +1
              And I am the generalissimo of the Cuban army
              1. posad636
                posad636 28 August 2012 10: 56
                -1
                Tell me, proletarian, what can you tell us smart here?
                1. urzul
                  urzul 28 August 2012 11: 02
                  +8
                  What kind of troops do such boors come from? With SUCH defenders of the fatherland and enemies is not necessary.
                  1. posad636
                    posad636 28 August 2012 11: 12
                    +1
                    Well, how did they offend the young lady ... She started to dream .... on military topics ..... she’s pumping herself up with a belligerent spirit and it’s not like a hump behind her, but folded wings))))))))) )))
                    I am not trained in politics: everything is in wars, but in trenches. Get used to how in the army an officer communicates with a fighter
                    1. urzul
                      urzul 28 August 2012 11: 17
                      +4
                      Well, you can immediately see which colonel, such and fighters.
                      Expressions choose! And then many ordinary past and Afghan and Chechen behave much more culturally, and you behave like a rear guard.
                      1. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 15: 44
                        0
                        Did you serve in the army?
                    2. DIMS
                      DIMS 28 August 2012 11: 31
                      +2
                      Dear, when you yell at a subordinate "without politeses", he simply ceases to perceive you. He pretends to be ashamed, but he thinks "like pi .. the big toe in the boot moves." I understood this as a cadet by my own example. And therefore he always spoke with his subordinates calmly. This is the most oak one.
                2. DIMS
                  DIMS 28 August 2012 11: 05
                  +6
                  Dear, remember for the future: a normal military man does not care about the satisfaction of the designers, the income of the military-industrial complex, and the "support of the domestic manufacturer."
                  He needs effective and safe weapons. Here and now. Because the shortcomings of weapons will affect his life and health, his subordinates. He will need to accompany the two hundredth home and look into the eyes of parents. Him, and not Napoleon Rogozin, designers and Deripaska.
                  Accessible enough, Colonel hell knows which troops?
                  1. posad636
                    posad636 28 August 2012 11: 07
                    0
                    Go sweep the streets
            2. core
              core 28 August 2012 11: 00
              +2
              it is evident that the colonel. hamlo. poke a stranger.
      3. core
        core 28 August 2012 10: 58
        +1
        you are right there appeared a lobbyist for putting junk into the army. VPK managers are happy with such a gift of fate.
        1. posad636
          posad636 28 August 2012 11: 08
          0
          Have you heard about the Mayevka complex?
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 28 August 2012 11: 44
            0
            Quote: posad636
            Have you heard about the Mayevka complex?

            No. I would like to hear something.
            1. posad636
              posad636 28 August 2012 12: 02
              0
              I will only answer that if it were not for Rogozin, then this miracle of our designers has never been realized.
              There are no analogues in the world and will not be soon. Unfortunately, I can’t say more.
              And yet, disgusting, to read the comments of the "experts" of this forum. Rave! Something must be done!
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 28 August 2012 12: 04
                0
                Praise Rogozin is what you need.
              2. Armata
                Armata 28 August 2012 12: 11
                +2
                Quote: posad636
                Unfortunately, I can’t say more

                Why then raise this topic at all? If I can't talk about something, then I just keep quiet. And so I can say that if there was no one there, we would not have a hyper-super-powerful weapon, the code name is "cactus", but I won't tell you about it, it's a secret. Kindergarten. Do you even know the law on non-disclosure of state secrets?
                1. posad636
                  posad636 28 August 2012 12: 16
                  -1
                  Here the audience is not the one for revelation. The fact that it is not known to anyone here - it pleases.
                  1. strannik595
                    strannik595 28 August 2012 14: 40
                    +3
                    Look, if you are so smart and knowledgeable and you don’t like the local audience, look for yourself on another site ................ judging by your comments, you are not a colonel with a higher education and a code of officer honor and excerpts, and the sergeant of the construction battalion ..... you leave such an impression
                    1. posad636
                      posad636 28 August 2012 15: 02
                      0
                      There are interesting comments from knowledgeable people here, but this does not apply to you.
                      At the expense of education: a military school and two academies with honors. A rude attitude towards you? And how can you relate to those who do not know anything, do not represent anything from themselves, but have an opinion, and even condemns someone for something. I mean Rogozin. Well, who are you? NONE
                    2. sasha.28blaga
                      sasha.28blaga 29 August 2012 06: 12
                      +2
                      There is no need to say anything about the construction battalion. The construction battalion has both education, and a code of honor, and more endurance than some of the local "colonels, lieutenant colonels and other senior officers."
                      Stroybat: 517 UNR 461 OVSR 1990-1992
                    3. sasha.28blaga
                      sasha.28blaga 29 August 2012 07: 05
                      0
                      There is no need to say anything about the construction battalion. In the construction battalion, education, a code of honor, and endurance will be more than some of the local "colonels, lieutenant colonels and other senior officers."
                      Stroybat: 517 UNR 461 OVSR 1990-1992
                  2. de_monSher
                    de_monSher 28 August 2012 14: 45
                    +2
                    Eh, "colonel", "colonel" ... In Soviet times, you would have sewn a good thing that pulls even to the tower, for your talkative language. It's a pity they ended ... *) Every military man should remain a "child" = we know, passed =, but an intelligent, educated, honest, calm and big-hearted child. And if the child is rude and talkative, then damn it, either the child is not who he pretends to be, or ... seven years on a bunk, at least, they are clearly crying for him ... definitely ...
                    1. posad636
                      posad636 28 August 2012 15: 00
                      -2
                      Once again I am convinced that crazy losers have gathered here. Here you are. What do you want here? And I will answer. You are nobody in life. Here is your outlet. here are as worthless as you.
                      1. Armata
                        Armata 28 August 2012 15: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: posad636
                        Once again I am convinced that crazy losers have gathered here.
                        I do not believe that you are really a colonel. By occupation, I often have to communicate with senior officers, I can assure that these are very educated and cultured people who know their worth. But in your comments I see just an embittered, poorly educated schoolboy, whose maximum argument is that he has a brother boxer.
                      2. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 15: 40
                        0
                        Thank God! Another admitted that he had nothing to do with the army. He just "communicates"))))))))))) At the same time, he also has an opinion! Not ashamed? Know nothing, but write something? Who is interested in your opinion?
                        Embittered? Maybe. And how could it not become embittered when those who did not serve gathered here, served as some sort of fighter (one admitted that he worked at the cannery during the service). Listen to this audience?
                        It seems to be an interesting site, but worthless people have fed here and discredit it. I didn’t want to write before, but got it.
                        I read the comments: it feels like they have spent the Internet in a psychiatric hospital!
                        Friends, you need to know how they rate you. I am glad that many intelligent people are aware of this.
                      3. Armata
                        Armata 28 August 2012 15: 50
                        +5
                        Quote: posad636
                        Thank God! Another admitted that the army has nothing to do.
                        I have more to do with her than you. But unlike you, I do not prank ranks and education.
                      4. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 15
                        0
                        Well, talking to senior officers is cool! Do you clean your boots?))))))))))
                      5. MI-AS-72
                        MI-AS-72 28 August 2012 22: 52
                        0
                        The military rank of colonel does not have the status of a senior officer, it is a senior officer. As for the "highly educated, cultural" conclusions you have very ambiguous, let's say. As for your arguments, I can say that they also told us from the series in kindergarten.
                      6. oper66
                        oper66 28 August 2012 15: 38
                        +10
                        Oh-oh, how are you menacing colonel !!!! Looks like he breathed gunpowder, stop being rude - if you're an officer, all the more senior. They correctly made a remark to you - a lot of such handsome men were drawn here - we know everything, we can, we touched everything - I licked everyone. Stupidly behaving and not correctly responding to people. My opinion about Rogozin is mine - I don't really appreciate him that much. While his contribution is very small over such a period of time, the main merit of the GDP is until the pH hits the table and hits the table — everyone like Rogozin sleeps like tired toys. Yes, I would also like to add - judging by you and your temperament, you are a parquet guy, who behaves right away and who knows how to behave right away. I had to talk with many legendary generals such as Batya Kodrat NSH OGVS Maltensky Baranov Chekalin and many colonels - although I’m a major and have been retired for 9 years, judging by you, you’re a lout and you’re even arguing with someone like you. For me, you don’t exist anymore as an officer (most likely you yourself appropriated the rank yourself) simply as a person, you are a simple impudent B D L O and I think many have the same opinion about you
                      7. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 15: 52
                        0
                        And who are you? If it’s a major, then kick you out of the army or hit the road yourself, and here’s a hero. "My opinion". Yes, not only your opinion, but you yourself do not interest anyone. Some kind of misunderstanding.
                        Do you speak parquet? For 2 years he commanded a company in Afghanistan in the 177th regiment (Dvinsky), 2,5 years in South Ossetia in the first war (GRU)
                        I wanted to write that you are human trash, but I won’t;
                      8. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 16: 00
                        +4
                        Hey man ... you don’t touch our brother. Oh, I’ve blabbed - a language without bones. If you were the one you pretend to be (Afghanistan, South Ossetia), you would have long, normally - humanly, smiled, chided yourself for talkativeness, and apologized ... Do you smell?

                        Many of these guys have combat experience behind them. And the geography is very different. For example, since childhood I grew up in an army environment, and according to the law of karma, I probably did not run away from the war. So what? I yell about this at every corner, right? And no one treated you badly until he began to be rude. First go to the mirror and look at yourself. Who you are, and how you behave, and then you can trepazza until the tongue and fingers become numb. "Colonel", damn it ...
                      9. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 09
                        -3
                        It’s you who should smell the dog))))))))))) Another clown admitted that as a child he just sniffed footcloths))))))))))) Another client fell off. Clown, you're not interesting)))))))))
                      10. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 16: 15
                        0
                        Fuck off, talkative idiot ... *))) = smiling contemptuously = ... you're the same combat officer as a shabby cat posing as a tiger ... *) definitely ...
                      11. Manager
                        Manager 28 August 2012 17: 20
                        0
                        posad636,
                        You act like a schoolboy pouring all the dirt on the Internet.
                        How quickly did you figure out who served and who didn’t. Did you break through IP?
                        I do not know you and shit I wanted who you are and what. Unfortunately, quite often there is such an outfit like you. And in spite of all your merits, man, you are clearly ...... You will understand yourself by going to the mirror.
                      12. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 38
                        0
                        Manager - that’s it. This is destiny. No, not a man - a manager))))))))))))))))) Like a dog’s nickname!
                      13. Manager
                        Manager 28 August 2012 17: 45
                        +2
                        Quote: posad636
                        Manager - that’s it. This is destiny. No, not a man - a manager))))))))))))))))) Like a dog’s nickname!


                        Your dog’s nature. And life is sure the same.
                        In Kievan Rus "posad" was called a hem. - From there and the character of a woman.
                      14. Armata
                        Armata 28 August 2012 20: 37
                        +2
                        de_monSher You too +++++++. Worthy.
                      15. oper66
                        oper66 28 August 2012 16: 14
                        +1
                        So behave with dignity as an officer - not some kind of non-commissioned officer. Well, yes, and what can you take from a boor, and for the company commander in the DRA it would be too long time to retire and you are still "currying" - you are lying to say the least, the developer of the May Day laughing wassat
                      16. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 23
                        0
                        This is your inferiority complex, loser. People become semiconics for their cognitive and strong-willed qualities, the ability to fight, and they kicked you out of the army. So whine. This is clear. The question is different. A decent person after that would not have touched the army theme, but you say nothing. You were not interesting before - not interesting now. UNSUCCESSFUL - what to take from you
                      17. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 16: 27
                        0
                        Hmm ... a loser, an adapted derivative of a common American expression - a loser. Curious ... Curious ...

                        So what did you say about the May Day? Is this a vegetable, a fruit, or a Rorschach stain?
                      18. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 33
                        0
                        Fima Dogs was certainly an educated girl. She knew such a rich word as homosexuality (12 chairs)
                        What is Mayevka? Learn over time)))))))))))))
                      19. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 16: 36
                        +1
                        But what about the glory of the "first exponent"? Your tongue itches just like a 16-year-old preoccupied virgin - a vagina. You would not have kept all the secrets in yourself, but you would have "given yourself up", just like this virgin ... *))) it is clear that you cannot wait ... *)))
                      20. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 39
                        0
                        In 10 years you will find out, defective)))))))))
                      21. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 16: 43
                        +1
                        Yah? Really? So I'll find out in 10 years? *)) But thanks to you, I already know about the "May Day" project ... *))) Can you imagine, for 10 years you will be "silent" like that same vagina, during a "loud" intercourse, in all forums ... and I, for 10 years, will laugh at you ... *))) horror ... and "Mayevka" will retire as a morally obsolete complex, and you will "rub", yes "rub" your hole instead of a brain ... *))) count ... *))) Maybe you will blab it all out, ah, yap? *)))
                      22. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 46
                        0
                        Do you have any strange associations: vagina, sexual intercourse .... They don’t give you something?))))))))))) Or maybe a fagot?
                      23. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 16: 52
                        0
                        The associations are direct and refer specifically to you. You just behave like a public girl, that's all - "I'll give myself up, but expensive." I could, of course, draw a parallel between you and a homosexual, but the likelihood that you, nevertheless, hypothetically, is a person who fought, holds back. And I restrain myself, believe me, the talker is unfinished and illiterate ... I would have treated you like a mentally disabled victim of an abortion for a long time ... That's something like this ...
                      24. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 07
                        0
                        Saloed, are you completely crazy? So that I tell Bendera something! You bastards, you can’t warm us. Here you cut the gas - you sing it with the canary. You are our own. You answer us for Sevastopol (cinema film Brother - 2).
                        Good film. Correct
                      25. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 11
                        +2
                        Nuuuu ... then you hit the sky with your finger, dude. I am not Ukrainian, but for your information - Uzbek. In Ukraine, in a case that is interesting to me and important for everyone, and not just for individuals, it’s not your business mind, for what ... *))))

                        So ... now, you can give out everything that your wretched brain, has bad things about the Uzbeks in its frail vaults ... I allow it ... ... *))) = got comfortable in the chair and prepared to read = ... *))) )))
                      26. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 17
                        0
                        Migrant? Probably special in the trash)))))))))))))))) We have a lot of your brothers. Streets sweep quality - no complaints. Bred however))))))))))) And the chair from the dump dragged?)))))))))))) That's right, defective.
                      27. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 23
                        +1
                        Nuuuu ... I am not a migrant, I have been and will remain a citizen of Uzbekistan, whatever it may be.

                        And to some extent, indeed, an expert on "garbage dumps" ... radioactive ... here you are certainly right ...


                        And so, in general - weakly ... weakly ... is this all the garbage that you have under your skull?
                      28. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 33
                        0
                        This is something new))))))))))))) Uzbeks switched to radioactive dumps. It is necessary for our Uzbeks to use harmful slops as well - what else are you capable of?
                        So look who is represented here: a radioactive dump, a major loser and a whole series of this kind. Well, and with whom is there to talk?
                        Radioactive bacha)))))))))))))) Here is the clown! And I thought, why are you so strange. It turns out - radiation. Already a mutant? )))))))))))))))))
                      29. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 35
                        0
                        Already become a mutant


                        I left this "honor" to you, buddy ... I never thought that anacephalous people live so long. You managed to convince me otherwise ... *)
                      30. oper66
                        oper66 28 August 2012 16: 37
                        +2
                        In addition to the fact that the boor behaves like a non-commissioned officer Prishibev, you don't know how to read - I wrote in retirement 9 years old, retired for years of service. "" , ????? !!!!!!!! so you attribute it to yourself - in fact, a boor and a dummy
                      31. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 44
                        0
                        Resign for seniority in the rank of major!))))))))))))) Shame! "Careerist". It would be better not to write ... This is how it should happen to be so!
                        Darkness!

                        I don’t know why, but I felt sorry for you. Uncomfortable as it became. Not everyone can be commanders
                      32. oper66
                        oper66 28 August 2012 16: 53
                        0
                        Yes, you also have progressive schizophrenia with megalomania, which has developed on an inferiority complex - yes, valerian won't help you here - you need haloperidol to slow down your violent fantasies, and since you behave in addition aggressively, it is also violent ... but that's just violent here was not enough - the guy forward to "Cana fellow wassat Lchikov's dacha "they will help you there - the commander has made him laugh - continue in the same spirit - people will laugh at you and have a rest - laughter is useful - especially when you laugh with more evil antics - and it is really sinful to be offended by your rudeness - well, a person is sick .. sorry for his illness and even a member of the "Chauffeur Brotherhood" - right on the Illuminati bed
                      33. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 02
                        0
                        I look, you have a good command of terminal psychology in a psychiatric hospital .... Now I understand everything ..... You have been trampled on by a fool from the army ...... I feel sorry for you too. That, I see you are all the same here in a heap. My fear was confirmed - the Internet was foolish
                      34. oper66
                        oper66 28 August 2012 17: 08
                        0
                        Yes, we didn’t get the leader, so you appeared laughing
                      35. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 23
                        0
                        Not a leader, but a leader, crazy.
                        You don’t even know that! Mediocrity - it is mediocrity.
                      36. oper66
                        oper66 28 August 2012 17: 51
                        0
                        Yes, the diagnosis of a person-megalomania - is no longer just a colonel commander - is already a leader ..... recourse Well, dare, helmsman ....
                      37. itr
                        itr 28 August 2012 16: 23
                        0
                        But in fact, 3 months ago, here 90 percent of Rogozin applauded
                      38. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 38
                        +2
                        Quote: itr
                        But in fact, 3 months ago, here 90 percent of Rogozin applauded








                        And what is the point.
                      39. oper66
                        oper66 28 August 2012 16: 39
                        0
                        I do not deny his merits, but I also see no reason to sing praises - the main merit of PUTIN, without his scolding, they are bad
                      40. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 48
                        0
                        Behave more modestly. He did not rise above the major, but possesses planetary thinking))))))))))))))))))
                      41. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 47
                        0
                        And who really takes this audience?
                      42. Armata
                        Armata 28 August 2012 20: 36
                        0
                        oper66 For each of your comments ++++++++. But do not give.
                      43. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 15: 43
                        +1
                        Scramble under the bench, kid ... *)) you did not pass the adulthood test ... *)) so I take off the obligation to refer to you as "you" ... *))))

                        And secondly - what is it for you who gathered here or not gathered? *))) Who are you, give estimates on the go, kid? *)))
                      44. Armata
                        Armata 28 August 2012 15: 58
                        +1
                        Guys. Why are we wasting our time with this person? I believe that he is not worthy of even our attention. Let it amuse itself with the thought that it is the coolest of all.
                      45. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 16: 07
                        +1
                        Yes, it’s a pity, man ... suddenly he is really a colonel, who knows. He is a person and a person who has a psyche and it often breaks down. It’s a pity all the same, - suddenly a well-deserved person, and I want him to take himself in hand, and begin to behave humanly ... behold ...
                      46. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 10
                        0
                        Well, of course, after what I wrote, you would have to think about it, but nothing ....))))))))))))))
                      47. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 11
                        +2
                        Quote: Steam Train
                        Guys. Why are we wasting our time


                        Zheka, well, your life is in full swing here. I thought we only had fun with Kars.
                      48. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 18
                        0
                        JACK - who are you here, clowns?
                      49. Armata
                        Armata 28 August 2012 20: 28
                        +1
                        No Sanya. You and Andrey are not so lucky. Here 3 is global with the Russian Federation (that is, with the whole site) laughing he fought alone for everyone here (no offense to the real heroes who saw the war)
                      50. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 06
                        -1
                        Raise your head, break away from the computer and understand - you are a loser. What is annoying? The abundance of incompetence. You are like that in life. Reason, condemn. The circus left, but you stayed.
                        Here they give advice to everyone. Even Rogozin))))))))))))) It seems that crazy people from Yandia and Russia gathered in the same room.
                        I agree with those who disdain to enter into a dispute.
                        I could not remain silent - there is no strength to endure all this nonsense. Some kind of madness.
                        Yes, there are reasonable people from the army and the military-industrial complex. Interesting articles.
                        I have a suggestion to the moderator: to enter a mark - who served in the army and who is just a troll. Marking fighters separately is garbage. Read only officers and engineers of the military-industrial complex
                      51. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 21
                        +2
                        Quote: posad636
                        Raise your head, break away from the computer and understand - you are a loser. What is annoying? The abundance of incompetence. You are like that in life. Reason, condemn. The circus left, and you stayed. Here they give advice to everyone. Even Rogozin)))))))))))) It seems that crazy people from India and Russia gathered in the same room. I agree with those who want to enter into a dispute. I could not keep silent - there is no strength to endure all this nonsense . Some kind of madness. Yes, there are reasonable people from the army and the military-industrial complex. Interesting articles. I have a suggestion to the moderator: enter a mark - who served in the army and who is just a troll. Marking fighters separately is garbage. Read only officers and engineers of the military-industrial complex









                        In a cool answer received. For the first time I ran into this. On the go and in the face.

                        Brother eat Valerian, or drink vodka there. Che tear heart?
                        We are all here like children in one sandbox, and you, like a cat, decided to go into it in a big way. I don’t like it, no one holds it, but about losers - a sporadic question.
                      52. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 30
                        0
                        1. I do not drink alcohol.
                        2. Not upset - amused
                        3. About the sandbox - you correctly noticed. Stagnation has formed here in you, cook in your own juice.
                        4. Puffed specialists appeared.
                        5. Maybe you're right - why argue with schizos?
                        6. Maybe someone realizes that he is a worthless person.
                        7. The site is interesting in the information and opinion of professionals
                      53. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 46
                        +3
                        Quote: posad636
                        I do not drink alcohol.

                        sewn up?
                        Quote: posad636
                        2. Not upset - amused

                        Well, that’s better.
                        Quote: posad636
                        About the sandbox - you correctly noticed. Stagnation formed here, cook in your own juice

                        I was silent about stagnation. Yes, and a fresh stream of strife.
                        Quote: posad636
                        Inflated specialists appeared.

                        Well, after all, these officer is different from the professor. The professor knows to hell but teaches one. the officer knows a little bit, but everything can teach.
                        Quote: posad636
                        5. Maybe you're right - why argue with schizos?

                        so I do not argue with you. You're right.
                        Quote: posad636
                        Maybe someone realizes that he is a worthless person.

                        so what a fool admits that he
                        Quote: posad636
                        The site is interesting in the information and opinion of professionals.

                        I look at P 4, 5,6 and think. I think ... I think ...
                      54. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 16: 55
                        0
                        1.Officer - does not mean an alcoholic
                        2. I told you here for a laugh. Breathe deeply
                        3. You see, and you did not admit that it was a good opportunity ....
                        4. I think, I think .... I think .... Loaded? Haloperidol. Urgently! We lose one more fool)))))))))))))))))
                      55. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 02
                        0
                        2. I told you here for a laugh. Breathe deeply


                        Woo ... don’t forget to wipe your ass. If you are offended, the world around you is not to blame ...
                      56. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 10
                        0
                        I left you ass to lick))))))))))))) And you will have gas there)))))))))))) You miss him)))))))))))))
                      57. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 20
                        +1
                        Backside licking homosexuals from your environment, among them you and the place ... *)

                        And what about gases - do you seriously think so? You yourself, just urged us to break away from computers, and now you yourself declare that you are "tied" to a computer to such an extent that you even perform natural functions here ... Right? A computer for you is a toilet bowl, a urinal and even a rubber woman, so it turns out, chuvachinka? *)
                      58. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 25
                        0
                        The task of the Uzbek is to clean up for everyone))))))))))))) So go ahead: in the trash, bacha))))))))))))))))
                      59. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 30
                        +1
                        Yes? *) And it seemed to me that the task of man, in everything to be - HUMAN, and not guzzling and shattering infusoria ... *))) you have chosen your own path, dude ... it is obvious to your face and ass. .. *)
                      60. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 40
                        0
                        Mutant)))))))))))))))
                      61. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 44
                        0
                        So I'm waiting, waiting ... *))) the flight of your "creative" imagination ... otherwise everything is monotonous somehow, it's already boring ...

                        I started with a fairy tale that you were a "colonel" (uhu ... "curry favor" probably because I was "under the colonel" for a long time, then I learned to "work with the language"). And you end up so trite, just like a broken record ... come on, surprise me, ciliate ... *))) Add variety to your "thoughts" then ... *)))
                      62. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 02
                        +3
                        Quote: posad636
                        An officer does not mean an alcoholic


                        I didn’t mention the alcoholic themselves admitted
                        Quote: posad636
                        2. I told you here for a laugh. Breathe deeply

                        so laugh or breathe deeply?
                        Quote: posad636
                        You see, you didn’t admit that it was a good opportunity ....

                        I have long been asking myself a cap with bells. Regular site confirm.

                        Quote: posad636
                        4. I think, I think .... I think .... Loaded? Haloperidol. Urgently! We lose one more fool)))))))))))))))))


                        But what acquired !!!!!

                        to the captain of the colonel. yes on bread. This pleasure is worth it, believe me. Checked.
                      63. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 14
                        -1
                        1, the fact that your head is weak and you are not able to read it is sad, but excusable
                        2. Inhale with a laugh. This is you high. Inhaling the smell of Colonel's dermis is a great honor.
                        3. You are from the cap, a clown for life))))))))
                        4. A loser with a held person is a great honor to communicate. In ordinary life, no one thinks of you as a person)))))))))) he is
                      64. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 29
                        +3
                        Quote: posad636
                        1, the fact that your head is rather weak and you are not able to read it is sad, but excusable for you.2 Inhale with a laugh. This is you high. It is a great honor to inhale the smell of Colonel's dermis. 3. You are from a cap, a clown for life)))))))) 4. A loser with an accomplished person is a great honor to communicate. In ordinary life, no one thinks of you as a person)))))))))) he is


                        In nature, the colonel smells of shit, sad but I read if they forgive. In life I’m a clown, and a clown is not a fool. And I do not mind, communicate.
                      65. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 44
                        0
                        No one doubts that you are a clown. The normal audience is hanging out here: a clown, a radioactive Uzbek, a major careerist ....)))))))))))) I dug up and here it is ...... I did not expect ......... ..
                        I haven’t laughed like that for a long time.
                        Clown, still wet something. Have fun people!
                      66. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 50
                        +3
                        Quote: posad636
                        No one doubts that you are a clown. The normal audience is hanging out here: a clown, a radioactive Uzbek, a major careerist ....)))))))))))) I dug up and here it is ...... I did not expect ......... ..Have not laughed like that. Clown, still wet something. Have fun people!


                        so you said everything for me. it turns out you are head over heels ...
                      67. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 28 August 2012 17: 34
                        +3
                        Quote: posad636
                        In ordinary life, no one thinks of you as a person)))))))))) he is

                        Another exalted figure is broadcasting while sitting on the toilet, something came up late. San, is it harder for you to give a shovel?
                      68. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 46
                        0
                        In a chair on the Arbat.
                        Shovel? Is another dung beetle right there. And who are you, a miracle?
                      69. Odessa
                        Odessa 28 August 2012 17: 36
                        +3
                        vorobey,
                        I have long been asking myself a cap with bells.

                        But who is constantly pulling and wearing my cap here? And I’m terrorizing Romanov about this. laughing
                        Confirm the site regulars.

                        I confirm that if interrogated, you can earn with a spatula.
                        By the way, posad636 (3), in the profile, the name says Chauffeur Brotherhood. There is such a portal on the Internet.
                        Colonel, are you a website?
                      70. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 44
                        +3
                        Esther, Sanya, don't you get dirty about the "colonel". some kind of VIP is maliciously not rubbed off.
                      71. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 28 August 2012 17: 57
                        +3
                        Quote: vorobey
                        some kind of VIP is not maliciously rubbed off

                        Sasha, I looked at his old comments - he didn’t write one, an ulcer for everything and everyone. Although he had already whistled, they leaked laughing
                      72. posad636
                        posad636 28 August 2012 17: 47
                        0
                        I am a member of this Brotherhood. There are only officers.
                      73. de_monSher
                        de_monSher 28 August 2012 17: 48
                        0
                        You are not a brotherhood, but a sisterhood is a direct road ... a sisterhood "under the colonels" ... *)))
                      74. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 18: 02
                        +3
                        where did he go? Only a spiritual interlocutor found him allowed on shawarma.
                        Okay, the loser clown closes his own office and went to his wife and children.

                        I did say something like that - I don’t remember the topic that the colonels shift when assigning a rank.
                  3. 916-th
                    916-th 28 August 2012 20: 37
                    +1
                    posad636: That IT is not known to anyone here is JOY.

                    Here is data from OPEN sources on the Mayevka complex:

                    Project 12700 minesweeper "Alexandrite". The combat contour of mine action includes an integrated system for the search and destruction of mines, consisting of GASM and self-propelled variable depth equipment for mine detection and destruction of mines such as "Mayevka" - "Livadia".

                    Obviously, the Mayevka complex is related to the automated control system for deep-sea vehicles.
            2. 916-th
              916-th 28 August 2012 20: 43
              0
              Quote: posad636: Have you heard about the Mayevka complex?

              Information from OPEN sources http://www.russianarms.ru/forum/index.php?topic=10845.0

              Project 12700 minesweeper "Alexandrite", the mine action combat contour includes an integrated mine search and destruction system, consisting of GASM and self-propelled variable depth equipment for mine detection and destruction of mines such as "Mayevka" - "Livadia".

              Obviously, this is a system of automated control of deep-sea vehicles.
  5. vorobey
    vorobey 28 August 2012 09: 45
    +7
    It is such a mediocre quality of purchased samples of weapons and military technology of foreign production forced Rogozin to fire several critical arrows at the Russian Ministry of Defense. Many have already dubbed the words of the Deputy Prime Minister that it is high time to start paying attention to the development of the domestic defense industry, as opposed to the procurement of frankly low-quality foreign equipment, a serious attack on Anatoly Serdyukov

    Well, give a man a pancake saigu chtoli with optics. Well, he's like an Indian with arrows. Neither accuracy, nor accuracy.
    1. Armata
      Armata 28 August 2012 10: 08
      +2
      Quote: vorobey
      Well, give a man a pancake saigu chtoli with optics. Well, he's like an Indian with arrows. Neither accuracy, nor accuracy.
      Hi Sanya. They didn’t immediately say that the bow, maybe it has a block crossbow, but this thing is more accurate and dangerous than Saigi wink
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 28 August 2012 10: 17
        +2
        Quote: Steam Train
        maybe he has a block crossbow


        Eugene well, what kind of cupid is he? I would still go without pants and with a wreath on my head.

        And so a respectable man. Yes, and the saiga, took the hands, mash thing. and to shoot at rams both in hunting and in pleasure from such a one.
      2. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 28 August 2012 10: 32
        +1
        Hi Zhenya, can’t you simply and quietly hang Mr. Serdyukov in a quiet forest? There is a lot of blood. The words from his words were already uttered until he was taught to buy thousands of tigers, all his words would be, only words.
        1. Armata
          Armata 28 August 2012 10: 37
          0
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          The sense of his words was already uttered by him, until they began to buy thousands of tigers, all his words would remain, only words.

          Hi Sanya. Well, "Tiger" needs some work and is quite large. Moreover, a new typewriter has already been prepared to replace him, if memory does not change this "Wolf".
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 28 August 2012 10: 42
            +3
            Quote: Steam Train
            ... Well "Tiger" needs some work and is quite large.

            Eugene, well, you personally didn’t speak very softly about yesterday. Yes, and considering how much they swelled to Lynx, it was possible to create a new car and enough for a few new bombers.
          2. core
            core 28 August 2012 11: 03
            -1
            What year does the tiger need to be finalized? how much can you modify the bucket?
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 28 August 2012 11: 06
              +2
              Quote: core
              how much can you modify the bucket?

              And we are not modifying the tiger, we are now buying buckets abroad as a second-rate country. Thank you to the Defense Ministry and its head Perdyukov.
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 28 August 2012 11: 11
                +1
                Exactly. "Tigers" are purchased without any modification
              2. Yarbay
                Yarbay 28 August 2012 14: 06
                +1
                And ours are buying tigers from you !! what
        2. vorobey
          vorobey 28 August 2012 10: 39
          +3
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          in a quiet forest


          Why forest then vandal? or Pinocchio Pinocchio? then cut it.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 28 August 2012 10: 44
            +2
            Quote: vorobey
            then saw

            So the Defense Ministry is sawing money and buying trash, but in the end they will hang it all the same. Remember my word, all this chaos is not good for our armed forces.
          2. Armata
            Armata 28 August 2012 10: 46
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Zhenya, well, you personally didn’t speak very softly about yesterday
            Yes, I'm not defending Iveco (still that guano) I just understand perfectly well that not everything is going smoothly with the "Tiger" either. Sanya, I constantly face the fact that if they put raw on the conveyor, then no one will modify the shortcomings. Therefore, I am careful with everything unfinished.
            Quote: vorobey
            then saw
            In the furnace of it. The double benefit is obtained.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 28 August 2012 10: 52
              +1
              Quote: Steam Train
              I just perfectly understand that not everything is going smoothly with the "Tiger"

              So I say that the money allocated for the purchase of the Rysy was enough to eliminate all the shortcomings, but the lobby ........... They simply will not let the tiger unfold, even if it does not have any shortcomings.
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 55
                +1
                Just the same lobby allows you to continue buying "Tigers" with all their shortcomings. Without eliminating them.
            2. vorobey
              vorobey 28 August 2012 10: 57
              +3
              - Correspondence is called Engels with this ... hell ... Into her stove!
              - I would have hung this Schwonder, honestly. On the first bitch.
              - This amazing rubbish sits in the house - like an abscess! Not only that, he writes senseless libel in the newspapers, and even ...
              - Doctor, for God's sake, go to the circus with him.
              - Just look in the program - there are no cats?

              Dog's heart.

              Guys you retell in your own words. Hang in a firebox in the woods .....


              Harsh years go
              The struggle for the freedom of the country.
              Others come for them
              They will be difficult too.
              1. Armata
                Armata 28 August 2012 11: 08
                +2
                Quote: vorobey
                - Correspondence is called Engels with this ... hell ... Into her stove!
                - I would have hung this Schwonder, honestly. On the first bitch.
                - This amazing rubbish sits in the house - like an abscess! Not only that, he writes senseless libel in the newspapers, and even ...
                - Doctor, for God's sake, go to the circus with him.
                - Just look in the program - there are no cats?
                - There are no elephants in cats.
                - I hope you don’t start throwing at elephants?
                - I don’t understand chtoli? Elephants are noble animals.
                -Well, that's good. Just darling, do not buy him vodka in the buffet. laughing
  6. andrey903
    andrey903 28 August 2012 09: 46
    -1
    You noticed that the number of Lynxes corresponds to the number of generals in the army, then everything becomes clear. We need to copy more advanced weapons, as the Chinese do. And then new helicopters and planes are planning to start producing in 2015. They are now outdated
    1. DIMS
      DIMS 28 August 2012 09: 51
      0
      You noticed that the number of Lynxes corresponds to the number of generals in the army, then everything becomes clear.

      Can I confirm the numbers?
      1. Passing
        Passing 28 August 2012 17: 21
        0
        The Ministry of Defense initially decided to produce 727 vehicles

        http://www.rus-obr.ru/ru-web/6139
        25/03/2010 - The number of generals in the Russian army was reduced from 1200 to 700
        1. Varnaga
          Varnaga 28 August 2012 19: 05
          0
          You better count the number of generals in the UK and the number of challengers, then you can sing songs about everything clearly, out of date, etc.
      2. Krapovy32
        Krapovy32 April 6 2013 12: 49
        0
        And he writes in every article about the armor of the car about the alleged amount lol
  7. Joker
    Joker 28 August 2012 09: 58
    +2
    Rogozin thrashes a lot with his tongue, if he is so smart, then he doesn’t do anything, then the users of this site did not need to buy foreign equipment for a very long time and without his prompts, he did not discover America. It’s better to move from words to deeds, otherwise things aren’t visible yet. PR Rogozin of course, of course, it is clear who after Putin will be running for president from EP. Although in fact Rogozin never said anything original, it’s called go to our website, read what people are talking about and say it to the newspaper, that’s all, there’s no need for a special mind.
    1. posad636
      posad636 28 August 2012 10: 33
      0
      Again emotions and pollutions. Do you even know the real state of affairs in the military-industrial complex and the army?
      It seems that manure from all over Russia is collected here!
      1. Joker
        Joker 28 August 2012 10: 48
        +1
        I expressed my attitude to Rogozin, and not to the army, where in my comment I wrote at least one word army? You read the comments before you write something.
        1. core
          core 28 August 2012 11: 05
          0
          he is a "colonel" he cannot understand the meaning of what he has written.
        2. strannik595
          strannik595 28 August 2012 16: 23
          0
          go to Kashchenko loser, successful people are calm and satisfied, do not spray bile and do not spoil the common air
      2. strannik595
        strannik595 28 August 2012 16: 24
        0
        go to Kashchenko loser, successful people are calm and satisfied, do not spray bile and do not spoil the common air
  8. DIMS
    DIMS 28 August 2012 09: 59
    +1
    Lynx began to show its clumsiness right from the moment it first appeared in Russia. It turned out that the snowy terrain was a serious obstacle for her, and there was no need to talk about the rugged terrain.

    Well, what can you do if the valiant developers of "Tigers" and "Wolves" are not able to produce even a single copy with the appropriate "Lynx" resistance to detonation for testing?
    That's right, you need to look for flaws in the "Lynx"
    1. vorobey
      vorobey 28 August 2012 10: 09
      +1
      Quote: DIMS
      resistance to undermining for uselife


      this is her only plus !!!!!!!
      1. DIMS
        DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 23
        0
        Keywords in this phrase "not able to make even a single instance"
        1. Passing
          Passing 28 August 2012 17: 36
          0
          Quote: DIMS
          Key words in this phrase "are not able to make even a single copy"

          Why is Tiger 6a not an instance to you? Ballistic protection is similar, mine resistance is claimed at 3 kg. Moreover, 3 kg without destroying the body, unlike Iveka, in which after the explosion of 6 kg, the blast wave flows inside. I heard that by similar criteria with our criteria, the Lynx holds only 4 kg. Those. the real difference is one kg. The disadvantage is of course, but not to say that it is radical. And we have the potential for our own production, the money received for this equipment will go not to improve the technology of a potential enemy, but to improve our technology.
          1. DIMS
            DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 50
            0
            What number are his explosion tests scheduled for?
            1. Passing
              Passing 28 August 2012 20: 30
              0
              The exact date will be given to you in Arzamas, and if you rely on my memory, somewhere within a year.
    2. Armata
      Armata 28 August 2012 10: 09
      0
      Quote: DIMS
      That's right, you need to look for flaws in the "Lynx"

      It is necessary to look for advantages and process it on your own technology.
      1. DIMS
        DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 32
        0
        What for? Rogozin will put pressure on the MO, and they will buy what is, as cute.
    3. kotdavin4i
      kotdavin4i 28 August 2012 10: 17
      -1
      Quote: DIMS
      we must look for flaws in the "Lynx"

      "Lynx" - one big drawback ...
      1. urzul
        urzul 28 August 2012 10: 20
        0
        I wonder what?
        Everything about the Lynx and the Tigers is known only from articles in newspapers and blogs.
        But what is surprising is that the people who traveled to the Tigers do not share your optimism.
        From my own experience.
        1. DIMS
          DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 27
          0
          Moreover, these articles are very often paid for by the management of the GAZ Group (the controlling stake belongs to Oleg Deripaska)
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 24
            +2
            Quote: DIMS
            Moreover, these articles are very often paid for by the management of the GAZ Group (the controlling stake belongs to Oleg Deripaska)









            No, you are an explicit agent of KAMAZ.
        2. vorobey
          vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 23
          +1
          look at the pessimism of those who ride a lynx.
          1. DIMS
            DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 25
            0
            See what the problem is. Anyway is better than sitting on an armor
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 08
              +1
              Quote: DIMS
              sit on the armor


              Did you sit a lot?
  9. borisst64
    borisst64 28 August 2012 10: 04
    0
    It turns out that Lynxes are released at a subsidiary of Moscow Region, i.e. subordinate to Serdyukov, and the money spent by the Moscow Region comes into the right pocket.
    172 TsARZ is one of 46 enterprises of the holding company Spetsremont OJSC, which, in turn, is part of the megal holding of Oboronservis OJSC. The holder of 100% of the shares of this “open joint-stock company” is the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
    1. DIMS
      DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 21
      0
      Serdyukov applauds you standing. You very correctly noticed the idea with JSC “Spetsremont”

      Razorbanirovany JSC "Oboronservis" according to the scenario of RAO EU is its direct task. And when the block of shares in 172 CARP will belong to the former chief Pupkin, MP Bubkin and the Cretan firm "Gadukino" he will be satisfied. Yes, and you too, income is not going to the state in the person of the Ministry of Defense.

      By the way, please specify who receives the income from the production and purchases of "Tigers". Thanks in advance.
  10. FID
    FID 28 August 2012 10: 16
    +5
    Purchases of foreign military equipment ...... Rogozin reprimanded the generals for FREQUENT FOREIGN WORKS on such exhibitions. Is the dog buried here? Contracts are part of the business trip expense report, I think. I went, rested, signed a contract for anything I got. Raspberries, not life.
    1. Armata
      Armata 28 August 2012 10: 28
      +1
      Quote: SSI
      Contracts are part of the business trip expense report.
      Good day, Sergey. Representative expenses for signing a contract (rental of a hall, buffet reception, motor transport for contracting parties, etc.) are part of the expense report. Can you imagine how much money can be written off?
      1. FID
        FID 28 August 2012 10: 34
        +2
        Good morning, Eugene! We have another morning. I imagine, therefore, obviously, and the endless stream of our generals going to all kinds of forums, exhibitions and similar events! The results are amazing! Mistrals alone are worth it!
        1. Armata
          Armata 28 August 2012 10: 48
          +1
          Quote: SSI
          Mistrals alone are worth it!
          Oh yes, this is generally the peak of incompetence. I'm tired of talking about all their shortcomings. And here everything is one "All Hurray" "We with mistrals, even with an aircraft carrier, can, like two fingers"
          1. FID
            FID 28 August 2012 11: 21
            +2
            All trouble in it! It seems that adults should understand, but ..... They read on the Internet, they begin to feel like experts in all areas, such opinions and judgments are sacred. I feel that VAF has come across this.
            1. Armata
              Armata 28 August 2012 12: 14
              0
              Quote: SSI
              I feel that VAF has come across this.
              Exactly. You can see above. He writes the same frame.
  11. nic
    nic 28 August 2012 10: 16
    -1
    DIMS,
    So the "lynx" was not tested for undermining.
    1. urzul
      urzul 28 August 2012 10: 21
      +2



      Testing by specialists of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and OJSC KAMAZ at the Schrobenhausen test site (Germany) of mine protection of an IVECO 65E19WM vehicle by detonating an explosive equivalent to 6.4 kg of TNT under the front left wheel. The "crew" of the armored capsule was not injured. The tests were carried out in March 2011.
      1. nic
        nic 28 August 2012 10: 28
        +1
        Well, this is not serious. Many questions emerge: what was blown up, how did it lie under the wheel, who are all these people? A couple of very interesting articles in "Auto Review", for example, you certainly know them. And they would have blown up at the Ming range. The defense of Russia, or rather, conducted full-scale tests of this product, and questions would not arise.
        1. DIMS
          DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 34
          0
          Is it possible to conduct appropriate tests of the "Tiger" or "Wolf"? At least at your own training ground, to prove that these machines, if not better, then at the level?
          1. nic
            nic 28 August 2012 10: 58
            0
            So what is the problem, one’s probably not tested, take someone else’s, also not tested. What major power was adopting alien, unverified equipment?
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 28 August 2012 11: 14
              0
              Alien tested, do not distort. Fortunately, the deal is approved at the highest level.
              But the cars of "Zashchita" will not be taken - they are opposed by the lobbyists of the "GAZ Group"
              1. nic
                nic 28 August 2012 12: 11
                0
                You have data that you experienced, you can some link.
                1. DIMS
                  DIMS 28 August 2012 12: 13
                  0
                  Look at 5 posts above
                  1. nic
                    nic 28 August 2012 12: 24
                    +2
                    Trust the tests in the territory of the probable adversary, without tests at their test sites. A new word in strengthening the country's defense capabilities.
          2. Passing
            Passing 28 August 2012 17: 45
            0
            Quote: DIMS
            Is it possible to conduct appropriate tests of the "Tiger" or "Wolf"?

            The tests of Iveka were paid by the Ministry of Defense, but the tests of the Tiger should be paid by the manufacturing plant. Feel the difference in approaches!
            Therefore, Tiger 6a (and the Wolf) while undergoing sea trials, as they finish, they will undermine it. At my own expense. In a situation where a niche of lightly armored vehicles is occupied by Iveka. Those. just money down the drain, they can’t repulse them with the help of the Ministry of Defense. And to improve our technology further there are also no resources. A vicious circle, sawing a bitch on which we sit. fool
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 55
              0
              And much poorer than the "GAZ Group" (net profit in 2011, 264 million dollars), ZAO Corporation "Zashchita" found money for this
              1. Passing
                Passing 28 August 2012 20: 49
                0
                No question, let the strongest win among domestic manufacturers.
                But why didn’t the MoD announce a competition with firm parameters, say Stanag 3-4, such-and-such weight, such-and-such resource, with a guarantee to the winner of the purchase, say 3000 and at the price of the Lynx?
                I am sure that for the sake of such a jackpot there will be a tough fight, with a guaranteed result.
        2. urzul
          urzul 28 August 2012 10: 34
          0
          And you saw a video of the 6 kg bombing under the Tiger. or at least a mention of this?
          By the way, in an autoreview somewhere there was an interview that talked about all the problems of the 6 TIGER
          1. nycsson
            nycsson 28 August 2012 13: 58
            +1
            Quote: urzul
            And you saw a video of the 6 kg bombing under the Tiger. or at least a mention of this?
            By the way, in an autoreview somewhere there was an interview that talked about all the problems of the 6 TIGER

            Are you looking for all the excuses? Yes, no them! It was necessary for his producer of foams under the butt to press if the tiger is worse than a lynx! And we all let it drift .......
            1. urzul
              urzul 28 August 2012 14: 30
              +1
              So they give it, the Wolf is already sort of passing the test.
              1. nycsson
                nycsson 28 August 2012 18: 09
                0
                Quote: urzul
                So they give it, the Wolf is already sort of passing the test.

                What kind of wolf? So what then do we buy lynx on such a scale ?!
                1. DIMS
                  DIMS 28 August 2012 18: 18
                  0
                  And it is even more raw than the "Tiger", with no explosion protection.
          2. mar.tira
            mar.tira 28 August 2012 16: 46
            0
            Quote: urzul
            undermining 6 kg

            And did you see a 600kg blast, or a ton of TNT? What do you measure by such criteria? In Afghanistan, when the head minesweeper of the T-72 tank with the trawl was blown up in our convoy, only rollers remained from it. The column was saved only by the fact that there was a small valley, just during the bombing. My friend Oleg Novikov still stutters. The mine was no less than a ton. And this is a tank !!!!
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 38
              +1
              Quote: mar.tira
              minesweeper of the t-72 tank


              Maybe all the same 62?
      2. vorobey
        vorobey 28 August 2012 10: 36
        +1
        Quote: urzul
        The "crew" of the armored capsule was not injured. Tests were carried out in March 2011


        Andrei, but such a real concussion is worse than a severed head.

        What is better than survivor's pension, or disability pension?
        1. DIMS
          DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 40
          0
          Better on disability, word of honor.
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 28 August 2012 10: 44
            +1
            subjectively, that's all.

            dummies also live in crash tests, but in real life it’s meat and meat.
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 46
              0
              That's for sure. Survivors will clearly be in favor
            2. urzul
              urzul 28 August 2012 11: 00
              0
              Crash tests at 65 km per hour pass. We have at such speeds in my opinion only in traffic jams.
              1. FID
                FID 28 August 2012 11: 17
                +1
                Quote: urzul
                We have at such speeds in my opinion only in traffic jams.

                Sorry, this is not a traffic jam - this is a freeway! Traffic jam - 3-5 km / h. Come and admire.
                1. urzul
                  urzul 28 August 2012 11: 19
                  0
                  It was an exaggeration, on the 65 highway no one drives, on average 90
        2. urzul
          urzul 28 August 2012 10: 47
          0
          The explosion destroys the front suspension, severely damages the engine, but the armored capsule is intact. The hatch is intentionally designed to swing open during an explosion and thereby protect the crew from excessive pressure. Inside the car, damage is limited to an offset steering column (there was no contact with the driver) and plastic chips from the front panel.
          Inspection showed that the driver dummy, which was closest to the point of explosion, was not injured, only a flying piece of the panel slightly ripped off his pants and cut his leg below the knee. The sensors record that there was no excess of the overload limit for the human body.
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 28 August 2012 11: 23
            +2
            In this crash test, six Italians will not show anything.

            http://www.newsland.ru/news/detail/id/618325/
            Yes, and there is in detail

            http://takie.org/news/broneavtomobil_rys/2012-08-22-694
            and here in detail especially in the comments
            1. urzul
              urzul 28 August 2012 11: 28
              +1
              So the photo and the tank can be laid out, without data on the type and amount of explosive, it does not mean anything.
              1. vorobey
                vorobey 28 August 2012 11: 54
                +1
                Quote: urzul
                So the photo and the tank can be laid out, without data on the type and amount of explosive, it does not mean anything


                In Afghanistan, the brave Mujahideen somehow do not warn how much and where they are laying.
                Andrei you will not believe, but our grandchildren in the Caucasus, too.
                1. urzul
                  urzul 28 August 2012 12: 08
                  0
                  Well, and what do you offer? Do not book at all? But what about small arms?
                  1. vorobey
                    vorobey 28 August 2012 12: 19
                    +1
                    Quote: urzul
                    Well, and what do you offer? Do not book at all?


                    Andrei, don’t ...

                    oddly enough, the tiger arranges explosives, does our defense mine plan to fully qualify for police functions?

                    His needs to be developed and improved.
                    1. nycsson
                      nycsson 28 August 2012 14: 03
                      +1
                      Quote: vorobey
                      His needs to be developed and improved.

                      I agree! And then at such a pace we will soon be buying everything in the West .....
            2. harrymur
              harrymur 28 August 2012 13: 58
              +1
              I don’t can point out somewhere here on the resource there was a link to a blog, as I understood from specials, a tiger test drive with a photo report without persons and faces 2011 winter, metal shoots from 5.45, they even had to push it from the slide, what would they get) ))), our tiger is not a tiger but a kitty, although it was praised for its suspension, so as a concept the tiger is good, but no more, we need a production culture and new quality standards
              1. urzul
                urzul 28 August 2012 14: 31
                0
                Finally, a competent comment;)))
                1. vorobey
                  vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 59
                  +2
                  Quote: urzul
                  Finally, a competent comment;)))


                  Not like the penguins say - hi.

                  it means that here you rest against the horns shouting that you need to develop your own - the controversy begins. comrade came in. said one phrase
                  Quote: harrimur
                  as a concept, the tiger is good, but no more, we need a production culture and new quality standards


                  All competent comment. It's a shame understand?
                  1. harrymur
                    harrymur 28 August 2012 17: 59
                    0
                    gentlemen, I don’t lie about the tiger)) I constantly read on your (our) resource, well, he doesn’t pull on the reincarnation of the UAZ, which goes along the tank track behind the front fire shaft, but frighten the monster, Papuans and hamsters, but get on the tank track and to pass under a hail of fragments and bullets, it’s too early for him yet to mature winked
                    1. vorobey
                      vorobey 28 August 2012 18: 06
                      +2
                      Quote: harrimur
                      , it’s too early for him, has not yet matured


                      So it can feed, and not let loose.
                      1. harrymur
                        harrymur 28 August 2012 18: 23
                        0
                        I understand it and are going to feed selected Italian food))
          2. Demon_Ex
            Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 11: 29
            +1
            Statistics suggest otherwise! All Iveco bombed in Afghanistan had dead in the crew. The shooter generally flies into free flight. In the photo, the driver in any case died or was left without legs.

            For more detailed analysis see http://ser-sarajkin.narod2.ru/ALL_OUT/TiVOut10/TGRvsIVC/TGRvsIVC001.htm
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 28 August 2012 11: 34
              0
              And what will happen to the crew of the Tiger in this case?
              1. vorobey
                vorobey 28 August 2012 11: 41
                +1
                Quote: DIMS
                And what will happen to the crew of the Tiger in this case?









                And what prevents the number of TNT to increase?

                And in TK for a tiger what protection class did the MO order?
                1. DIMS
                  DIMS 28 August 2012 11: 42
                  0
                  Carrying uncomfortable. And you can’t install it on every road. Unlike Fri min.
                  1. vorobey
                    vorobey 28 August 2012 11: 51
                    +1
                    Quote: DIMS
                    Carrying uncomfortable. And you can’t install it on every road. Unlike Fri min.








                    You yourself thought well what you said?
                    1. DIMS
                      DIMS 28 August 2012 12: 00
                      -1
                      And then. Set 10 kg landmine in the roadway, you will immediately understand.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 12: 15
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        10 kg landmine in the roadway, you will immediately understand

                        Type TM-72 is much easier to install in the roadbed.
                      2. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 12: 22
                        0
                        Nobody has yet learned to defend themselves against such. Fortunately, they are not often found, but all that can be advised is to go around puddles and other suspicious places

                        In general, cumulative anti-bottom and anti-side ones with a "strike core" need the same strict control as MANPADS
                      3. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 12: 45
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        In general, cumulative anti-bottom and anti-side ones with a "strike core" need the same strict control as MANPADS


                        does the lynx capsule save you from this?
                      4. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 06
                        0
                        These mines are designed to defeat modern tanks. Should I refuse them, and transfer to pick-up trucks with a DShK?
                      5. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 13: 25
                        +2
                        Quote: DIMS
                        These mines are designed to defeat modern tanks. Should I refuse them, and transfer to pick-up trucks with a DShK?


                        Again, you thought what you said?
                      6. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 30
                        0
                        Of course I thought.
                        I believe that if there is a powerful weapon of destruction, this does not mean that it is necessary to abandon all types of equipment, which it is theoretically capable of destroying.
                        What are you trying to say, formulate yourself
                      7. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 13: 35
                        +2
                        Quote: DIMS
                        I believe that if there is a powerful means of destruction, this does not mean that it is necessary to abandon all types of equipment, which it is theoretically capable of destroying


                        I get it now. Then explain why the Lynx has the right to be and the Tiger does not.


                        http://army-news.ru/2012/01/minoborony-otkazalos-ot-broneavtomobilya-tigr/
                      8. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 43
                        0
                        Because the "Tiger" has no protection against landmines.

                        And do not link to these regularly appearing articles. People are just doing their job of promoting Tiger.
                      9. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        People are just doing their job of promoting Tiger.


                        I agree.
                        • Opinion of the developer of the Tiger armored car Alexander Masyagin: Initially, we developed the Tiger for the United Arab Emirates: they needed to replace the Hammer because they didn’t like it in a number of ways. And then, when they suddenly abandoned this development, we decided to use it for Russia. But recently, I found out that they continue to work on our project and their "Nimrov" (translated from the Arabic "Tiger"), they have already sold about 500 units abroad.

                        • I don’t know why the Defense Ministry was so fond of this Iveco, but I want to note that our Tiger has a single-volume body, ie it can accommodate 9 fighters at once, and in "Iveco" - only 4-5. That is, if a unit of the Russian army can accommodate in one Tiger, then Italian cars will need two at once.

                        • In addition, Iveco was built on a wireframe principle with the use of armor plates, and such protection is uneven, while the Tiger has a solid body. Plus, I believe that our car is more suited to the Russian terrain, which showed their comparison in snowy conditions.


                        What capsule do you think is more resistant to detonation?

                        [
                      10. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 11
                        +2
                        quote = DIMS] Because "Tiger" has no protection against land mines. [/ quote]

                        - Let's talk about the claims of the Ministry of Defense. Military officials report that your Tiger has very low protection compared to the Italian machine, and that you need 3 years to reach the same level, but the Tiger will not even be able to move. This is true?

                        • What are 3 years? The Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia has long been buying Tigers with the 5th protection class that we were talking about from us. However, it was said that this "senior official" (apparently, it was the head of the Main Armored Directorate (GABTU) Alexander Shevchenko) noted that the certificate issued by the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs was not a decree, and they did not believe in the existence of a "Tiger" with such a class of protection.

                        • Those declared characteristics that were confirmed by the Ministry of Internal Affairs as the 5th class of protection are not accepted by the Ministry of Defense. At the same time, he says that the tests conducted in Germany, for him, are sufficient evidence of the Iveco protection class. And on the basis of German conclusions in the State Academic Bolshoi Technical University they conclude that this car meets the level of protection of the 6th class, and you can buy it. And the conclusions of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs do not suit them.

                        “Then why was it said that the Tigers, delivered to the units of the Ministry of Defense, have only the 3rd protection class?”

                        The fact is that when the Ministry of Defense ordered the development of the Tiger armored car from us, in the terms of reference it itself indicated that the class of protection should be the third. We made it.

                        • The Ministry of the Interior in the terms of reference for its department in 2005 indicated the 5th grade. We also did it, and then in 2005. After the appearance of the first messages about the planned purchases of Iveco, as its class is supposedly higher, we proactively created a Tiger with 6A protection class for our own money for six months.

                        • What three years are we talking about? We brought the car to this level in the spring of 2011 and in June demonstrated it to the Minister of Defense. In September, Vladimir Putin looked at him in Nizhny Tagil and said, "You are great!" I was present at the same time.

                        That is, Suvorov can be attracted for defamation of the Moscow Region?
                      11. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 13
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        People are just doing their job of promoting Tiger.



                        • According to him, if Lynx is a ready-made technical solution that can simply be used, then “Tiger ”is actually the direction of the Russian automobile industry, which needs to be maintained and developed. But the Ministry of Defense does not want to do this now.
                        It is noteworthy that in 2005, the Russian Tiger armored car in Jordan made the United Arab Emirates their own car - Nimr, certified according to the 3rd class of protection according to the NATO classification STANAG (6A in Russian GOST). For a year and a half, the Jordanians managed to collect more than 500 of these machines and organize their production in India.

                        Again, I agree people are promoting the TIGER.


                        Lynx in service with the most warring armies.
                        : Italy (more than 1,200 pieces of Iveco LMV, planned 7000)
                        : Russia (An agreement on licensed production in Russia was reached in 2011. In the next five years, it is planned to supply the Russian Army about 1755 vehicles) [7]
                        : UK (401 Panther CLV + 400 models as an option)
                        : Belgium (440 pieces of Iveco LMV + 400 as part of the + 120 option with higher security requirements)
                        : Bosnia and Herzegovina (12 for testing + 2 with higher security requirements)
                        : Norway (107 pieces of Iveco LMV + 63 as an option)
                        : Croatia (94 units Iveco LMV will be delivered by 2012 year, 6 units - models of field hospitals)
                        : Spain (185 pieces of Iveco LMV with the possible order of more than 400 pieces)
                        : Czech Republic (19 pieces of Iveco LMV with the possible order of more than 100 pieces)
                        : Austria (150 pieces of Iveco LMV)
                        : Slovakia

                        Do we need it?
                      12. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 38
                        0
                        Necessary. Because armored cars with protection against demolition were necessary to us even during the Afghan war.
                      13. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 25
                        0
                        The fact is that when the Ministry of Defense ordered the development of the Tiger armored car from us, in the terms of reference it itself indicated that the class of protection should be the third. We made it.


                        Well this is a direct lie
                      14. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 45
                        +1
                        Yes, you are a KAMAZ lobbyist.
                      15. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 47
                        0
                        Are you GAZ Group?
                      16. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 01
                        +2
                        Again a question to a question, Hear KARS. in my opinion he is not even an artilleryman.
                      17. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 15: 06
                        +1
                        I sometimes creep in these thoughts too. I certainly have especially theoretical knowledge, but not much more than mine (I am modest) even though I worked most of my urgent time at the cannery (I won’t tell anyone who dearly passed, I was well fed there)
                      18. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 14
                        0
                        Oh, send the Most Important Arguments - for the lack of one’s own thoughts to go over to the person. Bravo. Fan club in action. Two gummies on a bench with pockets of seeds.
                      19. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 15: 23
                        -1
                        Well, as a video about you is not a flattering opinion of more and more people, this seems to hint
                      20. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 26
                        -1
                        And I’m somehow on the drum to your brawl
                      21. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        And I’m somehow on the drum to your brawl


                        Is it quiet with himself?

                        I warned about verbiage. Do you still hold the mortar? You can put it.
                      22. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 40
                        0
                        Yes at least be warned
                      23. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Oh, send the most important arguments - for lack of own thoughts go to the person


                        Min Herz you rave. you did not answer more than one question
                        Quote: vorobey
                        do you think which capsule is more resistant to detonation?

                        Quote: vorobey
                        That is, Suvorov can be attracted for defamation of the Moscow Region?

                        Quote: vorobey
                        Do we need it?


                        Well, which of us is verbiage?
                      24. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 32
                        0
                        Well, which of us is verbiage?


                        You.
                      25. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 36
                        +1
                        Everything is clear. well, they’d say so right away. then hold on. Mortar in your hands.

                        now there will be verbiage.
                      26. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 41
                        0
                        Sorry, but I did not notice questions at the end of your collections. Now answered.
                      27. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 52
                        +1
                        the last one was not answered.

                        Kamazovets you are ours.
                      28. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 01
                        +1
                        According to the requirements of the Ministry of Defense, the entire IWT should be from domestic components. I do not think that Italy has become a constituent entity of the Russian Federation, however, a completely foreign machine is accepted for supply to the Russian Armed Forces.
                      29. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 05
                        +2
                        A bit of history.

                        Once we already bought a car from the Italians, but then in the USSR a plant was first built for it, then a few years later we started producing it. We still produce, and the name of the plant and its products began to be used as a curse word. Doesn't it seem like we are stepping on the same rake again? Only these rakes become truly golden. Somewhat later there was another attempt to cooperate with the Italians, but in the field of aviation. Together, they created a training aircraft. Russian designers have developed a draft airframe. Italians had to make engines and some onboard equipment.



                        But when the Italians received design documentation, they refused to cooperate further. Now, the Italian M346 training aircraft, like two peas in a pod similar to the Russian Yak-130, are successfully sold all over the world as a sample of products from the Italian aircraft industry. Russia from this cooperation has received nothing but bitter experience. And two more words about cooperation with Western companies producing military products. According to the information of friends from the Ministry of Defense, all samples of military products purchased in the West come to Russia, so to speak, in a truncated form, far from corresponding to what is displayed in advertising booklets.



                        For example, all UAVs that came from Israel were not fully equipped with control and data transmission systems. And the mine chairs of a well-known company came to Russia without a delivery link, the one that extinguishes the force of the shock wave of the explosion. The “partners” explained this by saying that the very link is “know-how” and they have no right to transfer it to Russia. It is not naive to think that the Italians or the French, or someone else, will give all the modern technology.

                        http://www.arms-expo.ru/049051124050048050049048.html
                      30. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 16: 10
                        0
                        Answered.
                        Today, 15: 38
                        Necessary. Because armored cars with protection against demolition were necessary to us even during the Afghan war.
                      31. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Replied. Today, 15: 38Need.


                        overlooked guilty. then read above.

                        mortar does not interfere?
                      32. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 16: 58
                        0
                        What "read above"? Another copy-paste?

                        I affirm: we need cars that are protected from explosions. Any fundamental objections?

                        I argue that "Tiger" and "Wolf" did not show themselves as such machines. Any objections?

                        I argue that the "Tiger" was not created for the RF Armed Forces, so all the jabbering about the mythical terms of reference of the MO is a lie. Any objections?

                        only objections not in style
                        mortar does not interfere?

                        Such evidence solely indicates the absence of arguments.
                      33. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        I affirm: we need explosion-proof machines. Are there any fundamental objections? I argue that "Tiger" and "Wolf" did not show themselves as such machines. Any objections? I argue that "Tiger" was not created for the RF Armed Forces, so all the talk about the mythical terms of reference of the MO is a lie. Any objections?

                        there are no objections.

                        Now it’s better. You do not claim that the Lynx is a way out.
                        is it better to modify the tiger?
                      34. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 37
                        0
                        It is impossible to modify the "Tiger". And because of the need to either redo the body or purchase a license for expensive protection for a flat bottom from the Germans, if possible.

                        I'm actually for "Scorpio-LSHA" in this segment. After some refinement, it will not only be able to achieve the characteristics of "Lynx", but also surpass the Italian.
                        http://twower.livejournal.com/816835.html

                        But I understand that the monsters "Kamaz" and "GAZ Group" will not let this firm break through. Then "Lynx"
                      35. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 55
                        +1
                        Dima, from two evils from greed we choose both?
                        I am ending the argument. dead end.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        It is impossible to modify the "Tiger". And because of the need to either redo the body or purchase a license for expensive protection for a flat bottom from the Germans, if possible.

                        Isn’t the German defense worth trotting? Dig it. All the best.
                      36. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 18: 09
                        0
                        Dima, from two evils from greed we choose both?

                        Why such a conclusion?

                        Isn’t the German defense worth trotting? Dig it. All the best.

                        German. But the cheaper one - the "Lynx" has a V-shaped bottom.
                      37. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 37
                        0
                        Can. For the words

                        "The fact is that when the Ministry of Defense ordered the development of the Tiger armored car from us, in the terms of reference it itself indicated that the protection class should be third. We made it."
                      38. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 36
                        0
                        What capsule do you think is more resistant to detonation?

                        In the quotes you quoted there is nothing about the explosion-resistant capsule "Tiger"
                        So there is nothing to compare.
                      39. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 42
                        +1
                        Quote: vorobey
                        In addition, Iveco was built on a skeleton principle with the use of armor plates, and such protection is uneven, while the Tiger has a solid body


                        my friend you are not an engineer. What is stronger welded construction or assembled on bolts (rivets)
                      40. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 16: 07
                        0
                        And what is the best way to transfer the impulse to the roof, frame or rigid box? But this is so, nonsense. "Tiger" still has no such protection, only stories and victorious reports.
                      41. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 16: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        some stories and winning stories.


                        Argument. show at least one of my replicas with a winning relational.
                      42. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 00
                        0
                        On the issues of the frame and the hard box there are no objections?

                        Argument. show at least one of my replicas with a winning relational.

                        Actually, I'm talking about developers who claimed to have such protection. it is strange that you took these words as addressed to you.
                      43. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 17: 20
                        +2
                        Quote: DIMS
                        On the issues of the frame and the hard box there are no objections?

                        unproven .. you did not answer that it is steady against destruction.

                        As written, I understood. And where did you find the victorious reports from the manufacturer? I saw that they are ready to submit a modified sample.
                        But the train is already here. All the same, Kamaz management is stronger.

                        By the way, I noticed that I did not touch your mortar.
                      44. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 47
                        0
                        unproven .. you did not answer that it is steady against destruction.

                        Why do you need resistance to destruction? Yes, on the drum on it, it is impossible to make a car that can continue to ride after the undermining of a more or less powerful landmine. You need to extinguish the energy of the explosion. Well, and undermining under the bottom, ensure that as little energy as possible is transferred to the roof, where the seats are attached.

                        By the way, I noticed that I did not touch your mortar.

                        Jammed? Do you think this is very funny and original?
                      45. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 18: 10
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        By the way, they noticed that I didn’t touch your mortar. Is it jammed? Do you think this is very funny and original?

                        no Dima I think this is as empty as our argument. Unfortunately, neither your opinion nor my opinion will solve the tiger problem. A hemorrhoids with a trot will be added.
                      46. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 18: 21
                        0
                        The problem of "Tiger" will be solved only by removing the car from the hands of Deripaska's managers. Or a complete ban on purchases until the deficiencies are eliminated. The problem will be solved by force in half a year.
                      47. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 17: 07
                        0
                        DIMS
                        What capsule do you think is more resistant to detonation?
                        In the quotes you quoted there is nothing about the explosion-resistant capsule "Tiger"
                        So there is nothing to compare.


                        There is only one option, put you in a Lynx and blow it up on an IED weighing 8 kg. And call scientists to calculate the dynamic shock and barotrauma of your carcass. Because nothing will be written down from your words!
                      48. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 48
                        0
                        And you to "Tiger". There will be no carcass; they will scrape off the remnants with a trowel from the debris into the bag.
                      49. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 14: 05
                        +1
                        I wouldn’t advise arguing with the artilleryman — it’s useless. He didn’t even realize that he wrote about the difficulties of installing land mines, he jumped to the fact that there was no escape from anti-mine mines when they hinted that it wasn’t easier to install them.
                        And what can I say if we tell him about remote mining systems and cluster munitions with ammunition and munitions.
                      50. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 14
                        +1
                        Hi, hi. This gunner, though he is not a mortar?
                      51. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 26
                        0
                        And how do mortars differ from artillerymen?
                      52. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 35
                        +2
                        First, the question is not answered.

                        Secondly, in principle, by no means, they cover by mistake both of them.
                      53. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 37
                        0
                        Do not mistakenly cover dates only. They are the only ones who are more likely to fail than add more.

                        And yet, I did not answer you with a question, read what you write yourself.
                      54. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 16
                        0
                        Well, tell me, dear.

                        What are the dimensions of a 10 kg landmine? and why is it no harder to install than 6 kg?

                        What is the particular danger of remotely mounted mines for MRAP machines?
                      55. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 14: 40
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        10 kg landmine? and why is it no harder to install than 6 kg?

                        What’s your weight? TM-72 with a diameter of 250 mm and hammer the asphalt beneath it, you need to know that the enemy’s equipment will drive OVER it. And to dig 10 kg of TNT mixed with aluminum powder poured into a suitable dish will be easier on the side, though The best option is to make a reinforced concrete road column with a hotel - but this is for gourmets.

                        And so in a mine 2.5 kg of explosives, and in a land mine 10 kg, so even there will be no sugar.
                      56. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 46
                        0
                        What’s your weight? TM-72 with a diameter of 250 mm, and hammer the asphalt under it


                        Wait, my friend, do not switch the arrows to cumulative anti-bottom ones. The question is discussed as follows: "why not increase the charge." I argue that the larger is more difficult to install.
                        Well, go ahead, prove the opposite without transferring arrows to remote mining
                      57. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 14: 53
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        do not translate arrows

                        Quote: DIMS
                        Carrying uncomfortable. And you can’t install it on every road. Unlike Fri min

                        Your words? Do I need to prove anything else?
                        Or should you read a lecture on anti-tank mines? For example, about the anti-tank mine TM-62M
                        Type of mines .......................................... anti-track
                        Case .......................................... metal.
                        Weight .................................................. ... 9.5-10 kg.
                        The mass of the adult substance (TNT, TGA, MS) ... ...... 7-7.5 kg.
                        Diameter ………………………………… ... ... ... 32 cm.
                        Height with MV-62 …………………………. ... .... 12.8 cm.
                        Height with MVSh-62 ………………………. ... ..... 100.2 cm.
                        The diameter of the target sensor ............................... .... ... 9cm.
                        Sensitivity .......................................... 200-500 kg.
                        Temperature range of application ... .......- 60 - + 60 degrees



                        And what is easier to install?

                        and by the way do you distinguish between remote mining and remotely controlled mines?
                      58. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 14: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        for example about the anti-tank mine TM-62M

                        I forgot to post a picture))))))))
                      59. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 05
                        0
                        I’m looking, some kind of frail road, isn’t it?
                      60. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 15: 13
                        0
                        This is Africa, not the road. The picture is just cool.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        There are many roads, conventional anti-tank mines can be installed on each of the roads. On each of the many roads. So more affordable?

                        But I don’t see any evidence of the difference in the complexity of the installation of land mines and Fri min.))))))))
                        Quote: DIMS
                        But with powerful land mines, especially those installed under the roadbed, everything is much more complicated

                        WHY? OVERALL DIMENSIONS or approximately the same or less in a landmine.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        You can’t throw him into a puddle, maybe someone will run over

                        Well throwing in a puddle is certainly super, pay attention ----
                        Quote: Kars
                        The diameter of the target sensor ............................... .... ... 9cm

                        at the same time, even the terrorists do not experience any special difficulties with pressure detonators.
                      61. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 21
                        0
                        But I don’t see any evidence of the difference in the complexity of the installation of land mines and Fri min.))))))))

                        Under the fool? He wrote only as accessible as possible that it was not about mines and land mines, but about comparing installation difficulties lighter and heavier landmines?

                        WHY? OVERALL DIMENSIONS or approximately the same or less in a landmine.

                        This thesis requires proof.

                        Well throwing in a puddle is certainly super

                        Nevertheless, it worked for me once. Young mehan. Unfortunately died.

                        at the same time, even the terrorists do not experience any special difficulties with pressure detonators.

                        And therefore mainly use remote detonation?
                      62. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 15: 32
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        but about comparing the difficulties of installing a lighter and heavier landmine?

                        Strange clearly reading--
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Carrying uncomfortable. Yes and you can’t install on every road. Unlike Fri min.

                        So what road do you say do not lay a land mine?
                        Quote: DIMS
                        lighter and heavier landmines?

                        It can’t be, is it really fundamentally different? Or maybe an extra 1-4 cubic decimeter? And an extra 10 minutes?
                        Quote: DIMS
                        This thesis requires proof.

                        I already brought them --- placing the overall dimensions of the PT mines.
                        Count the volume and take the density 1.6
                        Quote: DIMS
                        it worked for me

                        If necessary, the landmine can also be put in a puddle, without any problems.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        And therefore mainly use remote detonation?

                        Naturally, terrorists need to be provided with video reports. And if there is a possibility to remote, it is preferable to choose a target that does not give a PT mine. And that there will be no answer?

                        Quote: Kars
                        and by the way do you distinguish between remote mining and remotely controlled mines?
                      63. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 16: 04
                        0
                        So what road do you say do not lay a land mine?

                        The matter is in quantity, dear. I have already said this several times.

                        It can’t be, is it really fundamentally different? Or maybe an extra 1-4 cubic decimeter? And an extra 10 minutes?

                        It's easier or harder
                        number of TNT increase

                        Or anyway, what is the charge, will it be necessary to work the same way?

                        I already brought them --- placing the overall dimensions of the PT mines.

                        Dear, this is not an answer to the question. Approve, confirm.

                        If necessary, the landmine can also be put in a puddle, without any problems.

                        To reduce the chance of hitting him? Unfortunately they are not

                        Naturally, terrorists need to provide video reports.

                        And the push action of the fuse will prevent this.

                        And if there is a possibility to the remote is preferable, there is the possibility of choosing a target, which does not give a PT mine.

                        Oh, the first clever idea.

                        and by the way do you distinguish between remote mining and remotely controlled mines?

                        You have the gift to ask stupid questions, which also contain the answer. Do not fool around.

                        We used them in college, with petals and POM-1
                        Do you understand what I mean and what does this have to do with your question?
                      64. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 16: 19
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        The matter is in quantity, dear. I have already said this several times.

                        You can without a respected.
                        The amount of WHAT? Mines get harder than explosives.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        It's easier or harder

                        it doesn’t matter, especially if installed under asphalt. The only minus is carrying, and it’s not important.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Or anyway, what is the charge, will it be necessary to work the same way?

                        as I already answered is not particularly important. But the effect in any case will be greater. Not only for the purpose, but also for others.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Dear, this is not an answer to the question. Approve, confirm.

                        But you don’t want to check it yourself? I’ll say right now that the volume of mines will go 5 kg more ton, Do not be lazy.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        To reduce the chance of hitting him? Unfortunately they are not

                        Well, it’s you with a puddle here.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        And the push action of the fuse will prevent this.

                        Naturally interferes, if you do not understand it then I'm sorry.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Do you understand what I mean and how this relates to your question

                        He proved that you do not understand the difference. This is about it.
                        9M55K4 - rocket with KGCh 9N539 for anti-tank mining of the terrain. Each shell contains 25 anti-tank mines “PTM-3” with an electronic proximity fuse, in just one volley of the installation - 300 anti-tank mines. Designed for operational remote deployment of anti-tank minefields in front of enemy combat equipment units located at the attack line, or in the area of ​​their concentration
                      65. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 16: 45
                        0
                        The amount of WHAT? Mines get harder than explosives.

                        But in my opinion, the opposite. If we are talking about normal explosives, such as TNT in drafts, etc., and not about more voluminous civilian personnel.

                        In numbers, the burden of proof of your words is yours

                        Naturally interferes, if you do not understand it then I'm sorry.

                        That is, there are no arguments. Clear drain.

                        He proved that you do not understand the difference. Speech about it.

                        Enchanting. You met my expectations. Yspert's next revelation?
                        In the figure, PKM-1 Portable Mining Kit, designed for remote installation of anti-tank and anti-personnel minefields.
                        Remote mining is carried out not only by artillery (barreled and MLRS), but also by aviation, as well as mine-trailers, for example, such:


                      66. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 17: 04
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        But in my opinion, vice versa

                        Nope, for example, I can get explosives easier than a mine, which I can’t get at all. And by the way, according to FIG, what form of explosions in briquettes, drafts, concentrated charges. And they usually extract it from ammunition by smelting.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        In numbers, the burden of proof of your words is yours
                        Do I need it? I said, but you refute.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Remote mining is carried out not only by artillery (barreled and MLRS), but also by aviation, as well as mine-trailers, for example, such:

                        What a limited personality you are. What you brought is the mechanized setting of minefields, even though it is also called distance-wise. But for it you still need to be in a mined area and control it. And I'm talking about an almost instantaneous setting of minefields not only adversary but also in the depths of his orders.
                        So I understand that Google can help you, but
                        Quote: Kars
                        remote mining systems and cluster munitions with ammunition and munitions

                        you didn’t even think.
                      67. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 24
                        0
                        Nope, for example, I can get explosives easier than a mine, which I can’t get at all. And by the way, according to FIG, what form of explosions in briquettes, drafts, concentrated charges. And they usually extract it from ammunition by smelting.

                        Fortunately, Ukraine is not a hot spot, and there are no digging mines in the old minefield

                        Do I need it? I said, but you refute.

                        I will remember this answer

                        Why are you a limited person. What you brought is a mechanized setting of minefields

                        No, I’m not a limited person, I know that machines of the kind GMZ-3 are involved in the mechanized laying of minefields - crawler mine loaders

                        Or PMZ-4 trailed mine layer


                        So they really do not remotely produce everything. Unlike UGMZ, UMP and yes PKM-1
                      68. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 17: 58
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        there is no mine in the old minefield

                        Which for some reason did not install on non-recoverability?
                        Quote: DIMS
                        I will remember this answer

                        Use it, I allow it — only they usually take my word on this resource. But when you tried to prove something, and even with a seal and screams .. You lied, you think I won’t find --- brought another table completely.
                        Quote: DIMS
                        not at all remotely

                        And UGMZ type is not entirely mechanized?
                        Quote: Kars
                        and by the way do you distinguish between remote mining and remotely controlled mines?

                        You brought a PCM drawing where there are wires, a current source --- and that in doing so it gets remotely controlled, and you can re-read the question.
                      69. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 18: 16
                        0
                        Which for some reason did not install on non-recoverability?

                        Do you imagine the scale of this?

                        only me on this resource usually believe in the word

                        You are just like Chapay: "I was told that gentlemen take their word for it. And then the card went to me ..."

                        UGMZ type is not entirely mechanized

                        And what is mechanized there? Does the start-up circuit work? Then, remote mining using MLRS can be considered mechanized - the principle is absolutely the same. And even more so the use of art. guns.

                        You brought a PCM drawing where there are wires, a current source --- and that in doing so it gets remotely controlled

                        Yes. Remote controlled kit for remote mining. It happens. By the way, the launch from the Grad is also recommended to be carried out remotely.
                      70. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 20: 39
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Do you imagine the scale of this?

                        Well, you imagine minefields, and setting to non-recoverability is not so difficult, so do not make such a face--
                        The mine can be used with fuses MV-57, MVSh-57, MZK, MVZ-57. The first three fuses are designed exclusively for manual installation. MVZ-57 can be used both with mechanized and manual installation. To set the mines on non-removability on the side of the mine’s body there is an additional point for screwing the MUV fuse with the MD-5M fuse.

                        Quote: DIMS
                        And then the card went to me ... "

                        Well, nobody forbids you to open vet))))))
                        Quote: DIMS
                        And what is mechanized there?

                        Quote: Kars
                        not like completely mechanized?

                        TYPE
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Yes. Remote-controlled kit

                        at a distance of 20 km in the middle of a moving enemy?
                      71. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 21: 08
                        0
                        Well, you imagine minefields, and the installation of non-recoverability is not so difficult, so do not make such a face

                        Not difficult. But how to remove such fields themselves?

                        at a distance of 20 km in the middle of a moving enemy?

                        Is remote mining different from a mechanized installation in flight range?
                      72. Kars
                        Kars 28 August 2012 21: 25
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Not difficult

                        How does this contrast with
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Do you imagine the scale of this?

                        Quote: DIMS
                        But how to remove such fields themselves?

                        And why? The more we are interested in
                        Quote: DIMS
                        mines in an old minefield

                        Quote: DIMS
                        hot spot

                        And there (well, Cambodia, Lebanon, etc.) minefields are usually not removed, and even rarely there are their maps,
                        Quote: DIMS
                        flight range

                        Well, in this case, it’s the range that interests you, and the setting is at a distance from the territory where mining is performed (at a decent distance, where you couldn’t make a similar action manually)
                      73. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 21: 33
                        0
                        And there (well, Cambodia, Lebanon, etc.) minefields are usually not removed, and even rarely there are their maps,

                        The locals know them.

                        Well, in this case, it’s the range that interests you, and the setting is at a distance from the territory where mining is performed (at a decent distance, where you couldn’t make a similar action manually)

                        Here, the range is not the main thing. Remote mining is primarily the speed of setting a minefield. True, to the detriment of camouflage.
                      74. Kars
                        Kars 29 August 2012 12: 19
                        0
                        Quote: DIMS
                        The locals know them.

                        Yes, of course. Three times - that then our sappers in Lebanon will mine them. Not saying that those who set may well be non-local)))))
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Here, the range is not important

                        Maybe it’s not important for you. But to put mines where you are physically not located, yes.
                      75. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 04
                        0
                        Oh, my friend, again, problems with reading comprehension.

                        And you can’t install it on every road. Unlike Fri min


                        There are many roads, conventional anti-tank mines can be installed on each of the roads. On each of the many roads. So more affordable?

                        But with powerful landmines, especially those installed under the roadbed, everything is much more complicated. You can’t throw him into a puddle, maybe someone will run over. It must be installed, disguised, a lot of trouble.

                        And by the way, about stupid questions, not worth it
              2. Demon_Ex
                Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 11: 53
                +2
                DIMS
                And what will happen to the crew of the Tiger in this case?


                Have you looked at the link? It shows what happens to Iveco after one kg. BB Well, the tiger was already getting an RPG shot. The crew lives. And in general, during a war (real), and not military operations such as Iraq, Chechnya, Afghanistan, such vehicles will not be destroyed by landmines, but by artillery or machine-gun fire. Except as for convoys and police actions, they are not suitable.
                1. DIMS
                  DIMS 28 August 2012 12: 03
                  0
                  Have you looked at the link? It shows what happens to Iveco after one kg. BB

                  In fact, it is not known how many kg were there. Calculating at the level of the funnel size from a photograph, to put it mildly, is unscientific.

                  And in general, during a war (real), and not military operations such as Iraq, Chechnya, Afghanistan, such vehicles will not be destroyed by landmines, but by artillery or machine-gun fire.

                  And therefore it is worth abandoning all cars except tanks?
                  1. Demon_Ex
                    Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 12: 28
                    0
                    And how do you calculate the amount of explosives during an explosive technical examination? Type of explosives + diameter + depth of the funnel, also takes into account the brisance and explosiveness of explosives. There are special formulas for this. The linear dimensions of the funnel can also be determined from the photograph.
                    1. DIMS
                      DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 07
                      0
                      You forgot about the ground. About the technology and quality of the laying of the road. This photograph is very difficult to calculate.
                      1. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 13: 53
                        0
                        Have you seen the road after passing the tank column? Any asphalt or concrete turns into crushed stone. And what kind of terrorist will hammer concrete to lay a landmine? An explosion is affected only by the density of the soil, the denser the stronger the explosive damage.
                      2. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 57
                        0
                        I do not quite understand why you wrote this. What is the relationship between the tank column and the definition of the power of an explosion from a photograph?
                      3. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 14: 20
                        0
                        This is about what the roads will turn during the fighting! And the explosion power there is visible without it. The size of the funnel, and that’s it! Or have highways appeared in Afghanistan? Or a charge suspended in the air?
                      4. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 29
                        0
                        Are you sure that columns of "Abrams" regularly moved along this road
                      5. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 14: 46
                        0
                        T-72 definitely drove!
                      6. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 48
                        0
                        In columns. So that even the soil is damaged.
                      7. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 14: 57
                        +1
                        No, damn it in low gouge as part of a squadron! You obviously didn’t see the tank except in the pictures. Read the charter of the aircraft on the use of armored vehicles.
                      8. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 10
                        0
                        Not only did I see, I even know that it is very difficult to turn asphalt with concrete tanks into crushed stone. It is necessary to rotate on the spot, and for a long time. Or to drive these tanks regularly, often in large numbers, otherwise this process will drag on for years.
                      9. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 16: 42
                        0
                        And me, two kilometers from the house, there is a road along which once a month tanks and the Genocides pass to the training ground. And next to the landfill, this road intersects with the federal highway, so this section is regularly repaired after their walkways, they break it up in the yard .. but. This once a month!
                      10. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 02
                        0
                        And how many years does this happen ?.
                      11. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 17: 40
                        0
                        How many landfill exists. Just do not push that it is that for a long time. I gave you this as an example. Judging by your attitude to this topic, then you need to simple tractor drivers. They will say exactly how much 1 meter of road costs. And I don’t have to prove anything to you. Just take part on the road on a regular CAT or ChTZ. The condition of the road will clearly please you.
                      12. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 58
                        0
                        I went to MTLBu, 2C19 and 2C3. and on asphalt and concrete. So don't
                      13. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 29 August 2012 08: 51
                        0
                        Tired of this water! Here is one of the facts! http://pro-tank.ru/tanki-v-bou/416-3-dorogi
                2. urzul
                  urzul 28 August 2012 12: 10
                  +1
                  Well, the tiger was already getting an RPG shot
                  only the charge did not detonate
                  1. vorobey
                    vorobey 28 August 2012 12: 25
                    +1
                    Quote: urzul
                    only the charge did not detonate


                    The Negro’s problems are not of interest to the sheriff. In war as in war.
                  2. Demon_Ex
                    Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 12: 33
                    +1
                    This speaks of the quality of armor protection; Grade 3 did not penetrate from side to side. An RPG disc calmly pierces 15 mm.
                    1. DIMS
                      DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 08
                      0
                      Cool. It turns out that RPG should be abandoned? In case of failure armor penetration is too low.
                      1. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 13: 17
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Cool. It turns out that RPG should be abandoned? When malfunctioning, armor penetration is too low


                        When the arguments end, clowning begins. But the clown and the clown here is a strange sparrow. And this place is taken. so give up early.

                        graters on this car were already here. why did urzul not remember?
                        http://topwar.ru/9759-bronemashiny-dlya-armii-rossii-tayfun-i-rys.html

                        warning kars today is ambushing. be more precise and reasoned.
                      2. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 23
                        0
                        When there are no arguments, they begin to talk about the fact that

                        Well, the tiger was already getting an RPG shot. The crew lives.

                        forgetting to clarify that the charge did not work.

                        And warn, please, for yourself. Or are you from his fan club?
                      3. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 13: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        And warn, please, for yourself. Or are you from his fan club?


                        I already warned for myself, but I guessed about the fan club. We have a common hobby.
                      4. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 48
                        0
                        Do you study German?
                      5. vorobey
                        vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 31
                        +1
                        Quote: DIMS
                        Do you study German?


                        And what is this relevant?
                      6. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 34
                        0
                        Kars knows what I'm talking about, that's enough.
                      7. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 14: 27
                        0
                        Lynx not even with a detonated grenade will strike right through! With the declared protection of the 6th class, a 7,62x51 Nato cartridge breaks through it, the kinetic energy of which is less than that of our 7,62x54! And the Mujahideen are still using the stocks from Shuravi!
                      8. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 14: 31
                        0
                        Where does this information come from?
                      9. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 14: 51
                        0
                        From the military guard from the FDG who abandoned these cans.
                      10. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 07
                        0
                        Link, and in Russian.
                      11. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 16: 56
                        0
                        As an officer, you had to learn the language of a potential adversary. You go to the FDG forum and get in touch with any mercenary who participated in the convoy posting for the Dutch Red Cross mission. And that’s it, they will definitely tell you how to use Iveco and in what position.
                      12. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 17: 04
                        0
                        Link. For a specific phrase.
                      13. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 17: 28
                        0
                        The phrase of what? What Iveco - wow .. but or that they abandoned it? Kohl found it hard to rest against a foreign curiosity, look for yourself. I gave you the global coordinates. And you yourself write that almost all IEDs are remotely controlled, then no terrorist will blow up a land mine! His task is not to blow up equipment, but to destroy as many opponents as possible. And terrorists practically do not use anti-tank missiles. Cumulative charge mainly damages equipment, 60% of opponents remain alive!
                      14. DIMS
                        DIMS 28 August 2012 18: 03
                        0
                        I must find confirmation of your allegations. The original dispute with you comes out.
                        All these are fairy tales for the poor, "Iveco" as well as "Tiger" are produced in different versions of protection. By the way, not only from bullets and shrapnel, but also from detonation
                      15. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 29 August 2012 08: 38
                        0
                        You contradict yourself! During the conduct of hostilities (during the war!) Such balalaikas, be it the Tiger or the Lynx, didn’t give a damn. There will be no likely adversary to use landmines. Or for this purpose specially send sabers? And for any such tin, the usual PT is enough. Or do you think that future wars are a continuation of the Afghans, Iraq or the North Caucasus, or maybe a victorious entry of NATO troops into Russia? You must have believed in high-tech wars in the distance. All these stuffed with technology products only for the first days of a normal war! Look for confirmations about Iveco on the Internet!
                3. vorobey
                  vorobey 28 August 2012 12: 21
                  +2
                  On the whole, I agree, but for reconnaissance, it’s the same thing, and the assholes of the commanders at headquarters are warm to carry.
                4. core
                  core 28 August 2012 15: 45
                  0
                  about the RPG grenade in the tiger, she flew into one open door, and flew into another. RPG leaves no chance for BTR-u, and even a tiger for RPG is not a problem. so this fact is incorrect.
                  1. Demon_Ex
                    Demon_Ex 28 August 2012 17: 47
                    0
                    I pointed out this is not a fact of undermining! And the only information about the attempt to destroy the car with the crew. Well, the militant turned out to be a moron shot at point blank range; the grenade just didn’t stand on the platoon. And only the seat pierced.
              3. nycsson
                nycsson 28 August 2012 14: 54
                +1
                Quote: DIMS
                And what will happen to the crew of the Tiger in this case?

                You need to take and compare them under the same conditions! And then not Iveco to buy, but ours to refine, if it turns out to be worse by some parameters! Unfortunately, few people are interested in the problems of the military-industrial complex .....
                1. DIMS
                  DIMS 28 August 2012 15: 07
                  0
                  Of course not enough. Nevertheless, the safety of military personnel is more important.
                  1. nycsson
                    nycsson 28 August 2012 17: 54
                    0
                    Quote: DIMS
                    Of course not enough. Nevertheless, the safety of military personnel is more important.

                    Safety is important, I don’t argue! I just want to say that even if our armored car is inferior in some respects, this is not a reason to purchase foreign models, especially on such a scale! Well, you bought one or two, well, ten! Five were blown up, they looked at how they behaved, five were taken apart, analyzed, what they were better at and improved theirs! Conclusion: our military-industrial complex is in itself, and power in itself! No development strategy! And that is not right. At this pace, we will soon lag behind in all directions.
                2. vorobey
                  vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 21
                  +1
                  Nixon, a personal question for you. Do you periodically dragon me?

                  And so a plus.
                  1. nycsson
                    nycsson 28 August 2012 17: 38
                    0
                    Quote: vorobey
                    Nixon, a personal question for you. Do you periodically dragon me?

                    And what do I dragon you with? It will be interesting to read .........
          3. Passing
            Passing 28 August 2012 17: 58
            0
            Quote: urzul
            An explosion destroys the front chassis, severely damages the engine, but the armored capsule is intact

            There is a STANAG standard, the charge location is clearly spelled out in it, however, during tests at a German test site specially designed for this, the charge was placed with gross deviations from the standard! This is the Germans, this is a specialized certification ground, and suddenly the grossest violations !!! If these are not delusional visions, then this is an obvious juggling at the request of the Moscow Region (agreed with Iveco). I would not be surprised if the type of explosive was similar rigged "agreed".
    2. DIMS
      DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 30
      0
      "Lynx" was tested.

      And we also have the Zashchita corporation. They took it up late, but had already managed to test two samples by detonation. But GAZ Group is in no hurry for some reason.
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 28 August 2012 11: 47
        +2
        Quote: DIMS
        "Lynx" was tested.


        His need to work and not pick up garbage cans.

        Did you bring up the mangers? well done that vparivayut, then cope with the work. And then where are the designers and engineers of all Delhi?

        MoD at least one initiative came up in this regard? No, they are the same managers. If earlier the entire military-industrial complex was deeply integrated with the Moscow Region, now this is not the case. So much for the results of the Centaurs who didn’t practically fight, Lynx and other junk.
        1. DIMS
          DIMS 28 August 2012 11: 58
          0
          MO is doing what it is capable of within its powers - trying to resist such pushing. Well, the military-industrial complex "trolls"

          Indeed, in reality, it is much easier and less expensive for managers to create a lobby and pay for an information war than to bring weapons to an acceptable level. And the absence or presence of designers and engineers has nothing to do with it. This is all disadvantageous.

          And they begin to scratch, only in response to constant kicks from the very top, as is now happening with the same "Armata". After all, you must agree that it is more profitable for managers to deliver the next micromodernization of the T-90 than to complete the development of a new platform and organize its production
          1. Kars
            Kars 28 August 2012 12: 04
            0
            Quote: DIMS
            You must admit that it’s more profitable for managers to deliver the next micromodernization of the T-90 than to complete the development of a new platform and organize its production



            Well, don’t tell me, as a manager who previously worked on equipment, I’ll say that you can raise much more money on the new one. There are much more options for additional income - this is not technology mastering, but the purchase of accessories, training, third-party contracts to machine suppliers - and that’s all gratitude, envelopes, etc. overstatement of the estimate and associated costs.
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 28 August 2012 12: 09
              0
              This is a crane in the sky. Tit in the hands, it is more reliable.

              At least for us, judging by what is happening, this is so. What is the strangeness. For the same Americans, companies go out of their way to give something new to the army, ours operate exactly the opposite.
          2. vorobey
            vorobey 28 August 2012 12: 26
            +1
            Why in TK on Tiger MeO ordered 3 class of protection?
            1. DIMS
              DIMS 28 August 2012 13: 13
              +1
              TK on a ready-made model of weapons is silly to write.

              "Tiger" was created according to the technical specifications of the Emirati military, the local authorities refused and they began to push it to their native Ministry of Defense. The latter did not know where to stick it, and bought it in a cheap package.
              1. vorobey
                vorobey 28 August 2012 13: 31
                +1
                Quote: DIMS
                "Tiger" was created according to the specifications of the Emirates military


                I agree here. a plus
                1. Vanek
                  Vanek 28 August 2012 14: 33
                  +1
                  I will run into rudeness.

                  "TIGER", "LYNX" ........ UAZ-469
              2. Passing
                Passing 28 August 2012 20: 41
                0
                Quote: DIMS
                TK on a ready-made model of weapons is silly to write.

                However, the Ministry of Internal Affairs did "stupidity" and ordered the 5th class of protection, and accordingly received it. Apparently, too smart people are sitting in the Ministry of Defense, it would be better for them to be simpler, you see, they went to the 5th class of protection.
                1. DIMS
                  DIMS 28 August 2012 21: 09
                  0
                  This is not a statement of work; this is an ordered protection class. Things are different.
        2. nycsson
          nycsson 28 August 2012 14: 49
          0
          Quote: vorobey
          And then where are the designers and engineers of all Delhi?

          And now it’s not prestigious for engineers to be, they have a small salary!
          Quote: vorobey
          If earlier the entire military-industrial complex was deeply integrated with the Moscow Region, now this is not the case.

          Then the system worked on the development of the military-industrial complex, and now it works on the collapse of the military-industrial complex!
          Quote: vorobey
          So much for the results of the Centaurs who didn’t practically fight, Lynx and other junk.

          If we have our own weapons and military equipment, their purchases are just a laugh ...... I don’t see a fundamental difference, a wheeled tank or a caterpillar ........
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 28 August 2012 15: 04
            +1
            Quote: nycsson
            I don’t see a fundamental difference, a wheeled tank or a caterpillar ........


            Oh well.
            1. nycsson
              nycsson 28 August 2012 17: 36
              0
              Quote: vorobey
              Oh well.

              By firepower ........
              1. vorobey
                vorobey 29 August 2012 09: 33
                +2
                nixon, that's what dragons are.
                Requirements that apply to tanks. Suspender and compare wheeled armored car and tank.
  12. tan0472
    tan0472 28 August 2012 10: 41
    +4
    The article is called "Rogozin criticized the Ministry of Defense for the purchase of military equipment", but it would be nice to be called "After inadequate purchases of the Ministry of Defense, Rogozin raised a scandal and Serdyukov had to resign."
    I propose to rename the Lynx to Krys, and Serdyukov to Krysyukov.
    1. FID
      FID 28 August 2012 10: 43
      +3
      Support!
    2. UzRus
      UzRus 28 August 2012 10: 59
      +2
      Normal chased!
    3. nycsson
      nycsson 28 August 2012 13: 48
      0
      Quote: tan0472
      Rogozin raised a scandal and Serdyukov had to resign

      Yes, it must be driven by a filthy broom! Nobody thinks about the defense capabilities of our country, only about their own pockets ..... am am am
  13. UzRus
    UzRus 28 August 2012 10: 44
    +1
    Yeah, he criticized! Eagle! Serdyuk did what he wanted, does what he wants and will do what he wants. He wanted to spit! 30-year-old UAV technology for 400 million tanks? Yes, for this you need to send to Siberia - remove the snow!
    1. DIMS
      DIMS 28 August 2012 10: 48
      0
      Do not recall how much money was allocated for testing our drone that exploded on take-off?
      1. UzRus
        UzRus 28 August 2012 10: 58
        0
        Not exactly 400 million greens!
      2. nycsson
        nycsson 28 August 2012 17: 45
        +1
        Quote: DIMS
        Do not recall how much money was allocated for testing our drone that exploded on take-off?

        In Soviet times, rockets also exploded! According to your logic, you need to steal the entire production and buy everything over the hill ........ We didn’t have time to come up with this, but already sell it over the hill, although this is not in our troops, and in the West there are no fools, they are new they don’t sell samples, but they arm themselves, but trash, please always ........
  14. DeamonFIre
    DeamonFIre 28 August 2012 10: 57
    +1
    In my foreign technology you need to buy .. just to find out its weaknesses and strengths
    1. nic
      nic 28 August 2012 11: 08
      +2
      700 units, and according to the latest news, 3 thousand cars, so that you probably already know everything. wassat
  15. nik4950
    nik4950 28 August 2012 11: 35
    0
    Or maybe it’s easier, generals from the Moscow Defense Ministry IVECO liked the official cars. Prestige is the most expensive.
  16. Vanek
    Vanek 28 August 2012 11: 37
    +1
    Like Trofim:

    Whatever We have, all is not glory to God.
  17. AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 28 August 2012 12: 21
    +1
    The Russian Ministry of Defense took a strange position. In general, the development of national security and defense capability is not entirely clear. At the initial stage, you need to decide on the enterprises and their equipment. In parallel, determine the composition of the Armed Forces and the necessary weapons. To begin modernizing the military-industrial complex for the manufacture of projected weapons. And after the modernization of the military-industrial complex, to start manufacturing single copies and adopting them into service and mass production. At the same time, there should be a constant receipt of information on the development of the Armed Forces of "potential partners". I can’t say anything bad about Rogozin, but judging by all kinds of information that pops up in the press, some kind of undercover struggle is being waged and no logic is visible. For example, disputes over aircraft carriers, BMD-4M, etc. The assembly of "Lynx", etc., causes a sharp negative.
  18. Evil Tatar
    Evil Tatar 28 August 2012 12: 32
    0
    Quote: posad636
    Have you heard about the Mayevka complex?


    Yandex gave this link ... Maybe not who knows its encrypted posad636, what did he mean?

    http://old.nationaldefense.ru/110/754/index.shtml?id=1985
  19. JonnyT
    JonnyT 28 August 2012 13: 14
    0
    Yes, everything is as usual, financial interests are above the interests of protecting the country. It’s time to start purging the traitors from the leadership of our country.
    1. nycsson
      nycsson 28 August 2012 14: 04
      +1
      The second batch of heavy armored vehicles "Centauro" - "Centauro" (centauro) arrived in Russia, at the port of Novorossiysk. The Italian "wheeled tanks" are already undergoing tests at the Defense Ministry's proving grounds, the first stage of testing has been completed by vehicles with 105 and 125 mm cannons. This time armored vehicles with 120 mm cannons arrived.

      The test results are still unknown. Their results will be announced at the end of 2012. Representatives of Rosoboronexport stated in the spring of this year that, based on the test results, a decision might be made to purchase a license for the production of Italian armored vehicles in Russia.

      The Centauro is classified as a heavy armored vehicle, although in the West it is often referred to as a "wheeled tank". Italy stopped the production of "Centauro" back in 2006, at the moment this line of armored vehicles is generally considered outdated. On the same wheelbase, the Freccia BMP is being produced for the Italian armed forces, which was also brought to Russia for testing.
  20. bask
    bask 28 August 2012 13: 32
    +2
    I think Dima will be dismissed. Kickbacks do not roll back. .And the calendula is already smeared, the system is creeping crawling together with cancer. And then an arrogant ethusiasist got caught. But what are the aptemists now .... Wait for the 13 experimental batches of Armat Kurgansev Boomerangov. I finish a ....
    1. vorobey
      vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 23
      +3
      Quote: bask
      Zapadlisto at heart Choto. I finish a ....


      Brother overpowered himself. Let the others suck better.

      Tolerate together?
    2. Rezun
      Rezun 1 September 2012 13: 18
      0
      Well, DIMA and Brussels wanted to "throw off" ...
  21. nycsson
    nycsson 28 August 2012 13: 45
    0
    Yeah! I read the article! Hair on end! Well, where is the logic in the actions of individuals of the Moscow Region? am am am Rogozin is handsome! Keep it up, he’d have more power for him to put someone in his belt .......
    1. slav4ikus
      slav4ikus 29 August 2012 13: 07
      0
      yeah and boots in the indian ocean wash
  22. itr
    itr 28 August 2012 14: 15
    +1
    Rogozin anti-Kremlin Kremlin diet
    Yes, as I noticed, he always in some kind of cool jackets or special clothes
    f He reminds me of a toli loader toli of a special agent in short with obvious image obvious problems
    1. vorobey
      vorobey 28 August 2012 14: 24
      +2
      Image is nothing.
    2. nycsson
      nycsson 28 August 2012 17: 42
      +1
      Quote: itr
      shorter image obvious problems

      The most important thing is that there are no problems with brains! And the image is not the main thing! A statesman is judged primarily by his deeds, and not by his costume! From Versace or from ............
    3. Passing
      Passing 28 August 2012 23: 34
      0
      Quote: itr
      shorter image obvious problems

      Well, this is someone like, for me, the image of a loader, or even a production technician, much more attractive than the image of a glossy bureaucrat in an expensive suit.
  23. Bigriver
    Bigriver 28 August 2012 14: 38
    0
    "Iveco" .., protection class, resistance to detonation ...
    Guys, there’s a smart little diesel rail common rail of civilian power and volume.
    Who will serve it in the army? If they are not taken for repair by civilian money.
    The left solarium was poured - and the scribe, we are waiting for the tow truck.
    1. nycsson
      nycsson 28 August 2012 14: 43
      0
      Quote: BigRiver
      "Iveco" .., protection class, resistance to detonation ...
      Guys, there’s a smart little diesel rail common rail of civilian power and volume.
      Who will serve it in the army? If they are not taken for repair by civilian money.
      The left solarium was poured - and the scribe, we are waiting for the tow truck.

      Yes, all this is a no brainer! You have to be full deer to buy foreign military equipment, especially with our military-industrial complex! UAVs, Iveco, now wheeled tanks, what else will we buy? am am am
  24. crambol
    crambol 28 August 2012 15: 52
    0
    ... the Deputy Prime Minister blamed the Russian generals for the fact that they too often began to travel to Escpo's foreign counterparts and bring back ideas about mass purchases of foreign equipment from there, although instead of generals, in his opinion, Russian designers should go abroadable to better assess the quality of foreign designs.

    History is as old as the world. To learn how to work on a foreign device, people went to foreign countries no less than very worthy meritors and directorates. And MO does not like to let loose a freebie, especially if for breaking through an unnecessary order they break something from someone.
  25. Captain
    Captain 28 August 2012 15: 52
    +1
    Rogozin seemed to be bombarded with info about super weapons that Russia simply needs. Otherwise I can’t explain in any way that Uncle Dima began to freak out. The first doubts arose with the Italian pistol, created in three! Months! with the proud name Swift aka Strike. Then his love for the "terminator" BMPT, which, let's face it, is sooo raw. Four missiles in a city battle (the developers said that if we had such things in Grozny, then many tanks would survive) this is too few, missiles without protection are damaged at a time, until you get out new ones. And of course course grenade launchers as retro. A course weapon, according to experts, is an ineffective weapon.
    Well, I have my own personal attitude to the Tigers and is formed by the fifth point: several armored plates were cooked, we got a super-duper armored car. The wiring inside under the casing is glued with tape to the ceiling :)) Once you ride in it for a day, this is the priest full. As if you were carrying firewood. Iveco saw only on video and immediately became envious of those who will ride on them - the seats are a fairy tale. Our engineers can engineer, but creating comfortable conditions is not their element.
  26. badervlad
    badervlad 28 August 2012 15: 54
    +2
    By the way, D. Rogozin has a good book, I mastered it in three days on the train, take a look. "Hawks of the World" or "Notes of the Russian Ambassador"
    1. AK-74-1
      AK-74-1 28 August 2012 16: 10
      0
      I agree the book is interesting.
  27. Captain
    Captain 28 August 2012 15: 58
    0
    I read it, quite frankly written, without talerasti. He calls everything in his own words.
    1. VPO
      VPO 28 August 2012 17: 47
      +1
      I will download it and read it. At one time I had the opportunity to see and communicate with Rogozin in an informal setting, so to speak. He seemed a snobby, arrogant man, dreaming of snatching more money. After serving in NATO, it seems to have changed. And began to think more about Russia? Hopefully not in monetary terms. Correctly criticizes even Albanians will not sell "normal" equipment and technologies to their potential "Friends". We don't need it. We need order in our heads and an understanding of what the Motherland is.
  28. bask
    bask 28 August 2012 18: 27
    0
    .From the scripture! Look at their deeds. Dimon is the right kid, he has a smart face. Look at Taburetkina and Ko.nu are complete d .... But about the terminator I agree is mistaken. But now until the age of 15 at least some new technique is needed. Including the Tigers and so on ... Premier League. In space, full piz .. The whole world will make laughs In short, one is not a warrior in the field. I hope that at least our armored vehicles have time to pass through. YES I look at the site of Nashi and small-scale participants. There are plenty of them without them ..
  29. Rossmk
    Rossmk 28 August 2012 18: 35
    +1
    Here's how, but the Furniture Maker needs to be fired. I am sure that those who follow him will work more productively.
  30. Lech e-mine
    Lech e-mine 28 August 2012 18: 44
    +1
    It's funny how the Jews bred RUSSIAN DEFENSE on obsolete drones. PRIOR ABOVE THE ROOF and the result is ZERO.
  31. Strategia
    Strategia 28 August 2012 19: 51
    +1
    You read the comments, and it becomes sad!
    1. Showdown at the level of punks, judging by the "richness" of vocabulary. Sometimes it seems that a person here comes off on the members of the forum, relieves stress or satisfies some other base needs.
    2. At least 30% of comments have nothing to do with the topic and content of the article.
    Regarding the problem of choosing weapons and military equipment, it is difficult to figure out what it is about. Well, take it and determine what you specifically need, with what properties and characteristics (taking into account the economic component: how much it costs to buy, how much it costs to operate, what are the prospects for modernization and what is the life cycle, stability of cooperation in production, the cost of training specialists, taking into account the cost of educational material base, well, etc.). 2. Then test the samples under the same conditions, including military ones. 3. Choose the best sample. How to conduct expert assessments, I think, is known.
    1. d.gksueyjd
      d.gksueyjd 28 August 2012 22: 26
      +1
      So weapons were tested in the past: Tsarist Russia, in the USSR. Now technology samples are tested mainly by the rollback amount. The collapse of industry, medicine, education, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Armed Forces - the price for crap started by the eltsinoids and continued GDP
  32. bask
    bask 28 August 2012 20: 25
    +6
    My friend you do not like avant-garde. As far as I was fatnazii I reproduced slang haulers. According to the article, it’s also sad for me to become sad that in 13 we won’t see even the small parts of the promised armored vehicles. My friend wants Russian workers and engineers to eat. Hurray for patriotism as well. I agree with you. THE MAJOR LIFE OF THE SOLDIER! And banter is from anger and powerlessness to influence the situation.
  33. Phase
    Phase 28 August 2012 21: 18
    +2
    I can’t understand: why every Rogozin’s statement is immediately duplicated, repeated, discussed and presented almost as a revelation? Maybe PR is already enough on the basis of concern for the domestic defense industry?

    And one more thing: why, when justifying certain decisions, they so often refer to the words of Rogozin, and not to the conclusions of expert groups, field tests and modeling? What kind of substitution of a real decision-making mechanism by a "kind gentleman" is?
    1. MI-AS-72
      MI-AS-72 28 August 2012 23: 17
      +3
      Everything is very simple the USSR's backlog in R&D is over, new technologies need time and people, but today they are not there, so they are trying to solve, at least somehow, the problem of rearming the army, Rogozin is just a person, he probably already knows that most enterprises The military-industrial complex is not able to produce high-quality modern equipment, the design school has been lost in many areas, there are no experts on certain topics at all, and the "wolves" inside the country and at the borders are already clicking their jaws, modern technology is needed, inside the country this is a problem, the West is not new give, we get out as we can. Here Ragozin is the person who enjoys some authority of his own, and more, (his dad has a former military representative of a high rank in the senior general leith). trying to sort it all out, while expressing himself in "Aesopian language" showing us that there are problems, but they are so "small" and depend on managers, nothing more. IHMO
  34. Region71
    Region71 29 August 2012 08: 01
    0
    Surrounded by the president, the cancellation of the visit was connected with Putin’s preparations for the APEC summit in Vladivostok.Apparently for the president, defense issues are not critical.
  35. Septugian
    Septugian 29 August 2012 09: 02
    +1
    It would be better if he fired him!
  36. Patriot 34
    Patriot 34 29 August 2012 12: 56
    +1
    The main thing is that Rogozin, correctly says everything, why do we need 3000 lynxes for our roads at all!
  37. sazyckin
    sazyckin 29 August 2012 18: 23
    0
    There would be more like Rogozin at the top.
    Why do I believe him!
  38. vadim58
    vadim58 30 August 2012 03: 46
    0
    There is PUTIN, there is Ragozin, which means there is hope that even better people will come, but you need to do everything yourself and invest money in your own, and the fact that not many people want to work for us is a secret ......
  39. aviator46
    aviator46 10 September 2012 22: 25
    0
    The key word in all these purchases is rollback.