Military Review

Eastern Slavs - the beginning of history

194

N. Roerich. Idols. 1901 g.


This work tells about the earliest period stories Eastern Slavs VIII-IX centuries. This is not a retelling of successive historical events, but the first work of a cycle dedicated to the phased development of Russia - Russia, based on current scientific research on this topic.

The initial period of Russian history, according to the conclusions of the outstanding Russian philologist A. A. Shakhmatov (1864–1920), was described in an undated part of the chronicle. The first information was introduced on the basis of oral traditions, hence there are many inconsistencies in dates and events. The early history of the Eastern Slavs is substantially supplemented by archaeological data. Researchers look differently at the archaeological cultures that preceded the archaeological culture of the Eastern Slavs. Some insist on the continuity of these cultures, others believe that there is no continuity, and cultures belong to different ethnic groups.

East Slavs. Resettlement and colonization of Eastern Europe


The ancestors of the Eastern Slavs lived in the middle Dnieper region, the Carpathian region. From here, as well as from Powisle, the Slavs began to advance to the north, east and north-east.

The early events described in the chronicle find the Slavs (especially in some areas) at the very beginning of colonization. The advancement of the Slavs took place along the rivers. Places for settlements were usually chosen on the cape, since the cape is surrounded by water on both sides and it is easier to fortify and defend it.

The main goal was to create a protected tribal center - a "city" in a hostile environment, and not to dominate the river trade arteries, which was not at that time in Eastern Europe.

It is believed that at the time of the settlement of the Slavs across the East European Plain, the climate was milder than now.

The Slavic advance through these territories was not peaceful, as evidenced by both archaeological monuments and a summary of the chronicles. The struggle was not only with the Finno-Ugrians and the Balts, but also among themselves. The Volhynian tribe at one time dominated in the western and central parts of Ukraine, the Drevlyans "tortured" the glades. Many researchers suggest that the settlement of the Slavs took place in places that were not very attractive for the Balts and Finno-Ugrians due to various types of farming. The Finno-Ugric tribes carried out an appropriating type of activity: hunting, gathering and slash farming, and the main type of economy of the Slavs was plow agriculture. The higher type of management provided them with an economic advantage. Nevertheless, the still outstanding Soviet archaeologist M.I. Artamonov (1898-1972) wrote:

“Not excluding the peaceful infiltration of the Slavs into a non-tribal environment, it should still be assumed that the main thing in the process of their resettlement was military violence. This is evidenced by the comparative speed of the Slavic settlement and the ruins of their burning of Baltic and Finnish shelters - fortified settlements ”.

The rarity of the Finno-Ugric and Baltic population in these territories did not change anything. Tribal boundaries, "hunting territories" were inviolable for all peoples at the stages of development under consideration. The collisions could not lead to any assimilation. Which, in fact, did not happen. Clashes led to the destruction of a hostile tribe or its expulsion.


The Vod tribe. Archaeological finds.

As evidenced by the ethnographic material. The early Slavic cities, many researchers consider, by analogy with the medieval European settlement of the period of the struggle of cities with the feudal lords in the XIII-XV centuries, trade or interethnic centers, often of almost all galactic significance.

But they were exclusively fortified tribal centers of the Slavs who colonized in a hostile environment. These were Smolensk (Gnezdovo), Ladoga, Pskov, Novgorod. Archaeologists have discovered many of these "cities" during the migration period. For example, Gorodok na Lovati, Ryurikovo settlement and Kholopiy hillock in northern Priilmenye, Kobylya Golova settlement, Malyshevo, Malye Polischi in eastern Priilmenye, etc. The city of Murom and Vladimir on the Klyazma was founded in a purely Finnish environment. A huge number of such towns (as a type of settlement) existed in Russia until the XNUMXth century, when, with the division of labor, the division into town and village began, in the literal sense.

Colonization intensified with the emergence of the early Russian potestary "state".

The Finno-Ugric population "disappears", their tribal and sacral centers are desolate. As for assimilation, with regard to Northeastern Russia or the modern northern and northeastern regions of the central district of the Russian Federation, a serious percentage of the presence of the Finno-Ugric component among the Slavs is found only on the periphery, it did not affect (or did not affect very little) the center of the future Great Russian state: Rostov-Suzdal land with cities.

"The Legend of the Varangian Calling" tells about the strife between the Finno-Ugric tribes of the north-west of Eastern Europe and the Slavic newcomers: between the Chud and the Merey (Finno-Ugric tribal unions), the Krivichs and Slovenes (Slavic tribal unions).
Let's look at the picture of the settlement of the Eastern Slavs before the unification of these lands.


Map. The situation in Eastern Europe in the early history of the Slavs. View of the XIX century.

Buzhany, Volynians, Duleby, Polyana, Drevlyane, Dregovichi, White Croats inhabited and mastered the territories of the central and western part of Ukraine and western and central Belarus.

The Radimichs came from the territory of the future Poland ("lyashkoy" tribe) and settled on the Sozh River, on the territory of the modern Mogilev and Gomel regions.

The tribal union of the Krivichi, which had close ties with the Baltic tribes, occupied the territory of the Pskov region, and then moved south, to the upper reaches of the Dnieper and Volga (modern Minsk and Smolensk regions). It is worth noting that their tribal union included tribes not mentioned in the annals, for example, the Smolyans.

The northerners lived on the left bank of the Dnieper, their capital - the future city of Chernigov.
Vyatichi lived in the basin of the Oka and the Moskva River, on the territory of the modern Moscow, Ryazan, Oryol, Kaluga, Rostov and Lipetsk regions.

The Ilmenian Slovenes occupied the territory of modern Novgorod and part of the Leningrad region. Historians describe their origins in different ways. Some suggest that they migrated from the territory of the Dnieper region, others - that from the Baltic Pomerania (modern Germany and Poland).

Tivertsy and Ulichi settled in the area between the Danube, Prut, Dniester and Dnieper rivers, along the Black Sea coast. This is the modern territory of Moldova (Moldova) and the south-west of Ukraine.

There is an assumption that at the end of the XNUMXth century a new wave of Slavic settlers from the Danube and from Moravia moved to Eastern Europe. They brought new technologies and social skills, for example, the potter's wheel and even the term "knyaz". But there is no explanation as to how they were integrated into the tribal structures of the tribes of Eastern Europe.

Ancestral society of the Eastern Slavs


East Slavic society differed little from the early Slavic VI-VIII centuries. And it was based on the tribal system.

A genus is a collective of relatives, consisting of male relatives. In the tribal collective, of course, an outside participant, not a relative, who performed a certain rite, such as a blood oath, could be introduced.

The right-duty to defend and protect each member of the clan (revenge or compensation) rallied the collective. The collective was obliged to take care and protect each of its members, which was an integral part of the tribal system:

“Among them, nowhere to be found a single needy,” wrote Helmold from Bosau about the Western Slavs, “or a beggar, because as soon as one of them weakens due to illness or becomes decrepit with age, he is entrusted to the care of someone. or from the heirs, so that he supported him with all his humanity. For hospitality and care for parents are among the Slavs first among the virtues. "

At the head of the collective was the head of the clan, who had sacred and absolute power over the members of the clan. Several clans were united into a tribe. “Each reigned by his own kind,” the chronicler writes, that is, each tribe had self-government. City elders or elders ruled over the tribe. The military leaders of the community were probably next to the elders, although they could also be the leaders of the tribe.

At a minimum, we know the Slavic leaders Kiya, Schek, Khoriv in the glades, among the Drevlyans - Mala, among the Slovenes, possibly Vadim the Brave and Gostomysl. The Vyatichi had their own leaders. The term prince appeared later and began to denote the military leader and the head of "executive power".

The tribe consisted of free "husbands" - warriors who took part in solving the most important issues at the national assembly (veche). Moreover, they stood at different levels of the tribal system:

“All these tribes had customs,” wrote the chronicler, “and the laws of their fathers, and traditions, and each had its own character.

The glades had the custom of their fathers, meek and quiet ... They also have a marriage custom: the son-in-law does not go after the bride, but they bring her the day before, and the next day they bring for her what they give.

And the Drevlyans lived in a bestial custom, lived in a bestial manner: they killed each other, ate unclean things and they never had any marriages, but they abducted the girls by the water.

And the Radimichi, Vyatichi and Northerners had a common custom, they lived in the forest, like all animals, and they never got married ... "


Yu. Sergeev. Pagan Rus.

Archaeologists show that fortified settlements, consisting of 3–4 or 5–15 settlements, were located nearby, at a distance of 1–5 km. They formed a "nest". The nest occupied an area of ​​30 by 60 or 40 by 70 km. They were separated from neighboring nests by a “neutral” strip of 20–30 km. A settlement-settlement is a clan, and a nest is a tribe.
All the early cities originated from settlements-fortifications. They were originally exclusively tribal in nature and were tribal centers.


Jeweler's tools. VIII century Old Ladoga.

The clan was not only the basis of social, but also economic life. The economic base of the society was the collective ownership of the land by the entire community. Archaeological material speaks of a certain social equality of large families. In all activities, it was not economic, but consanguineous relations that were decisive.

On the eve of the super union


Agriculture was the key occupation. And in this, the Slavs were significantly different from other inhabitants of Eastern Europe, which gave them an economic advantage. Although the crafts occupied a huge place in their economic activities.

The separation of the craft did not take place, the artisan did not produce goods for the market, but worked to satisfy, if necessary, the needs within the family and clan.
In scientific historiography, a number of researchers consider trade to be a determining factor in development in Eastern Europe during this period. This is a direct modernization of the historical process, which contradicts the historical situation. Actually, trade "slid" on the surface of a primitive, from the economic point of view, society. Where, in a subsistence economy, we observe an extremely meager material world. Even in war it was used weapon, which was also used in everyday activities: a bow, a spear, possibly an ax. Before the arrival of the Rus, the Eastern Slavs did not have swords, the iconic weapon of the nobility and the supra-tribal military organization (squads).

Eastern Slavs - the beginning of history
Modern reconstruction of the Eastern Slavs.

The most important factors that influenced development were, firstly, population growth and the need to colonize new lands: agriculture, hunting and gathering in the forest and forest-steppe conditions did not provide a sufficient surplus product for the development of society.

Secondly, external pressure from the Khazars and Varangians. Changes were required to confront the enemies, who were taking away not only a "meager" surplus product, but also a significant portion of the vital. Rod could not cope with such problems. For survival and existence, it was necessary to unite on new foundations. And for the unification, it was necessary to have appropriate management. But the level of day-to-day management could solve short-term issues, for example, the unification of tribes into a temporary alliance to solve current problems (the expulsion of the Varangians in 861), but did not solve long-term problems.


Tribute to the Varangians and Khazars. The Radziwill Chronicle. 8 C.

To understand the processes of development in such a society, we quote from the work of the French ethnologist K. Levi-Strauss "Structural Anthropology":

“Primitive societies, or those considered to be primitive, are governed by kinship ties, not economic relationships. If these societies were not subject to destruction from the outside, they could exist indefinitely. "

This was the situation among the early Slavs, during the period of migration to the Balkans in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. We also see it during the migration of the Eastern Slavs in the VIII-X centuries. And it was external factors that had a significant impact on the formation of the first pre-state formations among the Slavs in the early XNUMXth - early XNUMXth centuries.

Most European peoples, for example, the ancient Romans, of the same period, passed through a similar structure of society. Rome in the early "royal period" was a tribal center.

The tribe was divided into three tribes, and the tribe - into ten curiae, the curia - into ten clans, the clan - into ten families.

The patricians, the fathers of the families, were at the head of the clans.

The supreme governing body was the people's assembly, which met in curiae.
The second governing body was the Council of Elders or the Senate. The Senate approved the decisions of the popular assembly and appointed a new king or military leader.

Nearby, and not above the Senate and the National Assembly, stood the rex (king) - this is a tribal military leader and high priest, a leader elected for life.

The land was collectively owned. Each clan had its own common cemeteries and clan cults.



The vocation of the Vikings.

The Eastern Slavs in the north of Eastern Europe were able to create a "super-union" (a stable scientific concept of a potestary, non-state association) with the Finno-Ugric tribes, which solved the tactical task of temporarily expelling the Varangians, but did not provide permanent security and management of these alliances. The tribal structure did not allow to act in a different way: "a clan rose to a clan".

In the absence of common governing bodies, it was decided to establish a supra-tribal structure, inviting it from outside, which entailed overcoming the static system of tribal isolation.

Sources and literature:

Adam Bremen, Helmold from Bosau, Arnold Lubeck "Slavic Chronicles". M., 2011.
PVL. Text preparation, translation, articles and comments by D. S. Likhachev. SPB., 1996.
Artamonov M. I. Slavs and Normans in Eastern Europe during the formation of the Russian state // Bulletin of Leningrad State University No. 4. 1988.
Bulkin V. S., Dubov I. V., Lebedev G. S. Archaeological monuments of Ancient Russia of the IX-XI centuries. L., 1978.
Kolchanov M.V. Property M., 1962.
Lebedev GS The Viking Age in Eastern Europe. SPb., 1995.
Levy-Strauss K. Structural Anthropology. M., 2011.
Ryabinin E.A.Finno-Ugric tribes in the structure of Ancient Russia. SPb., 1997.
Sankina S. L. Ethnic history of the medieval population of the Novgorod land. M., 2012.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian people. Selected Works. M., 2005.
Medieval Ladoga. New archaeological discoveries and research. L., 1985.
Froyanov I. Ya.Kievan Rus. L., 1990.
Froyanov I. Ya. Rebellious Novgorod. SPb., 1992.


To be continued ...
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194 comments
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  1. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee April 15 2021 05: 06
    +7
    hospitality and care for parents are among the Slavs first among the virtues. "
    Glorious traditions!
  2. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 April 15 2021 05: 21
    +10
    In the Caucasus and Central Asia, there are still tribal relations. The article is interesting, I look forward to continuing.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 15 2021 07: 02
      +12
      Good morning!
      You are absolutely right:
      In the Caucasus and Central Asia, tribal relations are still present.

      I would say more, with the return to capitalism in our country, all the remnants of the past were revived.
      Incidentally, this is an extremely important moment for understanding historical development, how much, for example, the clan system was a stable system, and how difficult the transition was to more progressive forms of development.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 April 15 2021 08: 05
        +1
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        the clan system was a stable system, and, how difficult was the transition, to more progressive forms of development.

        Do you consider the improvement of the system from open slavery to hidden (feudalism, capitalism) more progressive forms of development? Doubtful statement.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 15 2021 17: 25
          +7
          Good evening,
          depending on what to take as a criterion. From the point of view of productivity growth and social management, of course. The generic system is most often survival on the edge. Look at North. 19th century Caucasus? From the point of view of serfs and slaves - trouble
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 April 16 2021 08: 03
            +1
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            The generic system is most often survival on the edge. Look at North. 19th century Caucasus? The generic system is most often survival on the brink

            Look at modern corporations in Japan and you will see all the same generic relationships there and they feel pretty good.

            Capitalism has brought the World to the brink of human survival, to the brink of biological (not only a virus), economic and military disaster.
      2. Artyom Karagodin
        Artyom Karagodin April 15 2021 11: 59
        +8
        Eduard, thank you for the very high quality material! Everything is based on facts, balanced, clear, without any "Fomenkovism", which, alas, is enough for "VO".
      3. Bolt cutter
        Bolt cutter April 15 2021 13: 24
        +8
        Happy Birthday to you! Good luck and good articles like this one!
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 15 2021 17: 23
          +5
          Thanks a lot! Very nice!
      4. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar April 15 2021 14: 22
        +7
        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Good morning!
        You are absolutely right:
        In the Caucasus and Central Asia, tribal relations are still present.

        I would say more, with the return to capitalism in our country, all the remnants of the past were revived.
        Incidentally, this is an extremely important moment for understanding historical development, how much, for example, the clan system was a stable system, and how difficult the transition was to more progressive forms of development.

        Long time to live
        Long legs of mistresses
        And so that they are younger than the cognacs that you can afford! fellow
        Happy Birthday!
    2. Richard
      Richard April 15 2021 10: 06
      +9
      Good morning Igor hi
      Good morning Edward hi
      In the Caucasus and Central Asia, tribal relations are still

      I may be wrong, not only in the Caucasus and Central Asia. And in many places historically inhabited by the Cossacks. Judging by myself.
      Our ancestral home in st. Lysgorskaya, where I lived with my great-grandmother since 1974, after her death in 1986 (I was then studying at the VPVPU), I passed not to my father, her direct grandson and only heir, but to our Saratov aunt, who became the eldest in the family. And already after her death, he was bequeathed to me by Aunt Alya, and not to his own family. Anachronism on the face ... but it was so
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        April 15 2021 12: 42
        +6
        Good afternoon!
        Yes, this is so, you once again confirm.
        At the everyday level, there are many stories, in Asia there are tragedies in general: early weddings, dislike, suicide.
        The birth system is a strong system, but opposed to progress and development.
        Yours faithfully,
        hi
  3. A. Privalov
    A. Privalov April 15 2021 05: 42
    +15
    Strange article. Not a word about serious material archaeological evidence. In the pictures, there are some completely primitive things.
    The above maps show that the Slavs of those times live literally nearby, or even in territories (especially in the south) where entire civilizations were born and died. That nothing touched them, did not affect them, did not have any influence? Where is the evidence of their material culture - stone structures, sculptures, coins?
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 April 15 2021 07: 58
      +2
      There is evidence of wooden architecture, there are also payment bars.
      1. A. Privalov
        A. Privalov April 15 2021 08: 24
        +5
        Unfortunately, I am not familiar with the evidence of wooden architecture that has survived to this day.
        It is not even convenient to compare payment bars - Kiev or Novgorod hryvnia dated XII - XIII AD, with, say, ancient (1000 years older) Roman coins.


        1. Operator
          Operator April 15 2021 09: 07
          -5
          Each person wears the most accurate evidence of his biological and geographical origin in the male line himself - in the form of a Y chromosome (an artifact, however).

          Among the Slavs, including the Eastern, the dominant haplogroup (a set of Y-chromosome nucleotides) is R1a. Its ancestor (according to the sequence of mutations in the set of nucleotides) is the R1a subclade of the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans dated 6 thousand years ago.

          7 thousand years ago, the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans were the first in the world to invent the smelting of copper, silver and gold from polymetallic ore, bronze alloys, spoke wheels and war chariots, and also domesticated the horse. They left the Balkan-Carpathian metallurgical province and the Varna necropolis as artifacts of their existence and civilizational achievements. The level of processing of bronze, silver and gold items in the so-called animal style was achieved by other civilizations only 3 thousand years later, and then only after the migration of the Aryans across Eurasia.

          After the depletion of the ore base, the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans dispersed to the north, west and east. The Aryans who migrated to the forest zone became the ancestors of the Western and Eastern Slavs, the Aryans who migrated to the steppe zone mastered the polymetallic deposits of the foothills of the North Caucasus and the Southern Urals, where there are several thousand mines and remains of furnaces for melting ore dating from 6 to 4 thousand years. After the depletion of the ore base in the South Urals, the descendants of the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans, in order to find a new ore base, dispersed on war chariots across Asia Minor, the Iranian Highlands, the Hindustan Peninsula, southern Siberia, Xinjiang and Manchuria.

          It was from the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans for 3,5 thousand years that the population of these regions of Eurasia learned to smelt metals from ore, process it at a high level, use a horse, spoke wheels and war chariots, which, together with the bone remains of R1a carriers, are now found in burials from the Balkans and Carpathians to the Karelian Isthmus, the Volga region, the Kama, the British Isles, the Middle East, India and Northern China.

          What other artifacts do you need?
          1. Konnick
            Konnick April 15 2021 09: 23
            +3
            7 thousand years ago, the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans were the first in the world to invent the smelting of copper and gold from ore, bronze alloys, spoke wheels and war chariots, and also domesticated the horse. They left the Balkan-Carpathian metallurgical province and the Varna necropolis as artifacts of their existence and civilizational achievements ... What other artifacts do you need ?.

            And where are these artifacts?
            In the 1970s. Chelyabinsk archaeologists under the leadership of Vladimir Gening discovered 5 burials similar to Krivoozyorsk in Sintashta, about 80 km south of Krivoy Lake, but only wheel prints (in four cases with 8 and in one case - with 12 spokes) or holes for them were preserved. In addition, the initial radiocarbon dating dated them to the 2000th-2100th centuries. BC, and only later was it established that they date back to ca. 1800 BC, i.e. roughly modern to the chariot from the Crooked Lake. In general, now the burial grounds in Sintashta, Krivoy Ozero and Kamenny Ambar, the settlement in Arkaim and similar antiquities such as Potapovka on the Middle Volga date back to XNUMX-XNUMX. BC.
            And it is these spoke wheels that are the most ancient.
            Melting of metals began in the Southern Urals. Native copper deposits are found only there.
            The oldest remains of a domestic horse were found in the southern Urals at the sites of Mullino II and Davlekanovo II, which are located on the territory of Bashkortostan and date from the C-14 border of the 5th-XNUMXth millennium BC. e. Horses in Mullino are all young (up to XNUMX years old). Their bones were often cut lengthwise for processing and making tools. Bone daggers made from horse bones were found with slots for inserting flint blades into them. If these were wild animals, then all ages of horses would be represented among them.

            At the sites of Davlekanovo II, Murat, Karabalykty VII, Surtandy VI, Surtandy VII, horse bones were found in significant numbers. At some sites in the Southern Urals, more than half of all bones are horse bones. On some sites, their number is approximately 80-90% of all bones.
            1. Operator
              Operator April 15 2021 10: 52
              -7
              The most ancient spoke wheels, war chariots, horse bones and children's clay toys in the form of horse carts, as well as bone remains of carriers of R1a - the direct ancestors of the South Ural Aryans were found in the Balkans with a dating of 5 thousand years BC.

              Archaeological data from half a century ago are not available laughing
              1. Konnick
                Konnick April 15 2021 14: 36
                +2
                Archaeological data from half a century ago are not available

                Provide a link specifically to the spoke wheel.
          2. A. Privalov
            A. Privalov April 15 2021 09: 27
            +4
            Quote: Operator
            What other artifacts do you need?

            Artifacts? What are you talking about? What other artifacts?
            And I already heard about chromosomes from Medynsky. Thank you.
            1. Operator
              Operator April 15 2021 10: 58
              -6
              Before demanding artifacts from us, present Abraham's contract with Jehovah from 2000 BC. and the tablets of Moses from 1300 BC. bully

              Recording of legends and traditions in the form of the Torah from 800 BC. Do not offer.
          3. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 15 2021 09: 40
            +7
            Quote: Operator
            which, together with the bone remains of carriers of R1a, are now found in burials from the Balkans and the Carpathians to the Karelian Isthmus, the Volga region, the Kama, the British Isles, the Middle East, India and North China.

            Interesting. Are there links to research, photographs of artifacts, at least the names of burial grounds? I would familiarize myself.
            1. Engineer
              Engineer April 15 2021 10: 25
              +6
              Does the morning start with trolling?)
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master April 15 2021 10: 45
                +13
                Not at all.
                I am sincerely interested in the source of any knowledge and am always ready to adjust my position on a particular issue, taking into account the argumentation of my opponent.
                The truth is, until now, the Operator has not spoiled me with revelations, but maybe today is just the same case?
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer April 15 2021 10: 57
                  +9
                  Leave the man. The only eyewitness to the Battle of Tollense deserves some rest.
          4. Sergey Sfiedu
            Sergey Sfiedu April 15 2021 18: 57
            +4
            Its ancestor (according to the sequence of mutations in the set of nucleotides) is the R1a subclade of the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans dated 6 thousand years ago.

            Geneticists regularly come up with mutually exclusive versions. And R1a is not marked anywhere. So what about the Balkan-Carpathian Aryans, I would recommend to be more careful. There are other versions as well. Moreover, the term Aryans in relation to the Balkan and Carpathian regions is nonsense. The Aryans are the ancestors of the Indians and Iranians. The term Indo-Europeans is used for the European population, and if someone calls Europeans Aryans, it immediately betrays a freak ..
            1. Operator
              Operator April 15 2021 20: 05
              -3
              "Indo-Europeans" is a purely concrete term of Jewish historians (the term "Aryans" causes irrepressible verbal diarrhea in them).

              The main thing is not where R1a was geographically marked, but where it was marked as ancestral and where - as descendant.

              Whoever does not understand this (see DNA paternity test) is a freak in genetics.
              1. Sergey Sfiedu
                Sergey Sfiedu April 16 2021 14: 19
                +1
                Ah, it turns out for the Jews. Actually, this is common terminology. If you want to use freak - your right, the flag is in your hands. By the way, did you check Klesov for Jewishness? Well, how is he himself that neither is a descendant of the Jews, loot shears on Russian nationalists?
                "and where she was noted as ancestral and where - as descendant" - in-in. How many geneticists, so many opinions on this score. The Balkan-Carpathian theory is generally an outsider here.
                1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Rita Aletdinova 1999
                Rita Aletdinova 1999 April 20 2021 14: 35
                0
                So this gene is more common in Kyrgyz and Uzbeks than in Russians. So they are your genetic brothers.
                1. Operator
                  Operator April 20 2021 14: 59
                  0
                  The Kyrgyz have 1% of R50a carriers (the rest are the carriers of the Mongolian C2), the Uzbeks - 25% (the rest are the carriers of the Central Asian J2, Mongolian C2, etc.).

                  But the R1a subclades of the Slavs with the Kyrgyz and Uzbeks (as well as the Tatars, Bashkirs, Tajiks, Pashtuns, Arabs of the Persian Gulf, Turks, Iranians, Indians, Tuvinians, Uighurs and Manchus) do not coincide - we have Eastern European, they have a Black Sea.

                  The subclades were divided during the period when the carriers of the ancestral subclade R1a stayed in the Balkans 6 thousand years ago, therefore the Slavs with these peoples are not brothers, but distant relatives.
        2. Pessimist22
          Pessimist22 April 15 2021 11: 06
          +2
          And which northern peoples had mints in those days? Among the Germanic tribes, the British, the Scandinavian tribes? All used cattle as a means of exchange, including in Rome at one time.
    2. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu April 15 2021 19: 07
      +3
      That's when they came to the places of ancient civilizations, settled, acquired states - stone structures, sculptures, and coins gradually appeared there, especially where the locals were not carved to the root. And the Eastern Slavs, at most, went to the Romans to rob or become mercenaries (and maybe they did not go even in the described time) - where did they come from such excesses? The burials during the described period are very poor, many East Slavic tribes did not even know the potter's wheel, they lived in dugouts, although there is Anth gold, but it is completely in a peculiar style, does not overlap with other cultures ..
  4. Konnick
    Konnick April 15 2021 06: 06
    +2
    This work tells about the earliest period in the history of the Eastern Slavs of the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries.

    I would not say so. This is a rather formulaic presentation of the history of the Slavs, which is taught in high school.
    How can you explain this?
    There is a singer Vaenga, her surname is really different, she took a pseudonym along the Vaenga river, flowing near Severomorsk, according to Viki, a female deer translated from Sami.
    If you go from Severomorsk to the Trans-Volga steppes, then you will come across the Voinga River in Karelia, then Volonga in the Vologda Oblast, going down to the south we will get to the Voininga River in the Vladimir Oblast, so we will get ... to the Volga.

    Voynga, Voihna, Voyka, War, Voynega, Voytech, Vojts, Vojciech, Vuytsa, Vujana, Vuya - militant. The name Voina is mentioned in 1174, 1234 and 1402 among the southern Slavs. 1258 (Wojtech, Wojciech) at the Poles. 1457, 1592, 1606 (Voyka, War, Voihna, Voytsa, Vuytsa, Vuyana), Bulgarian.
    http://kod-imeni.ru/slavyanskie_drevneslavyanskie_imena/vladislava.html

    So where did the Slavs come from and where? And what does the Sami have to do with it? Hydronyms are the oldest names for the area. Yes, by the way, Sanskrit translates almost the names of all rivers in the center of Russia. And a warrior in Sanskrit is war, battle.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 15 2021 06: 59
      +11
      Hydronyms are the oldest names for the area.
      Uh-huh. In the same place, not far from Severomorsk, the Pechenga River flows. Does this mean that the two lost families of Pechenegs migrated exactly there?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master April 15 2021 09: 52
        +8
        I am afraid to even suggest how the name "Khibiny" should be understood in this context.
        As one of my acquaintances from Kandalaksha used to say: "Your mother is apatite to Khibiny" ...
        laughing
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 15 2021 10: 00
          +8
          This speaks of the tribal enmity of the Apatite and Kandalaksha clans. And there is. At the dawn of his youth, he was present at the "showdown". laughing
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 15 2021 12: 13
            +6
            The Apatites had the custom of their fathers meek and quiet ... They also have a marriage custom: the son-in-law does not go after the bride, but they bring her the day before, and the next day they bring for her what they give.
            And the people of Kandalaksha lived in a bestial manner, lived in a bestial manner: they killed each other, ate unclean things and they never had any marriages, but they abducted the girls by the water.
            Or vice versa? wassat
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 13: 09
              +5
              The Apatites had the custom of their fathers meek and quiet ...

              Sergei, you will not believe it - he himself wanted to write about the character of the Apatites, but his hand trembled, because he could not think of a way of life for the Kandalaksha people ... recourse And you - did not flinch! good drinks
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 16: 13
              +4
              they killed one another, ate unclean things, and they never got married, but they snatched the girls by the water.

              They did not have maidens, they killed water and marriages, snatched each other from unclean food.
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 April 15 2021 21: 03
          +4
          And the toponyms of Karelia can generally excite the imagination.
        3. Andobor
          Andobor April 16 2021 12: 48
          +2
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          "Apatite your mother in the Khibiny" ...

          Yes, and my friend said that there is a monument to Apatit in the center of Apatit.
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 12: 14
        +5
        Uh-huh. In the same place, not far from Severomorsk, the Pechenga River flows. Does this mean that the two lost families of Pechenegs migrated exactly there?

        Anton, there lived ancient alcoholics who lost their liver. They lived and lived, and went to America, instead of alcoholics becoming Algonquins, but the name remained. It's just that scientists haven't dug there yet. yes Colleagues, I ask both not to be offended - a friendly joke! drinks
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov April 15 2021 12: 34
          +5
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          nton, there lived ancient alcoholics who lost their liver. They lived and lived, and went to America, instead of alcoholics becoming Algonquins, but the name remained.

          "- Thief slope! - cried Peter I, dropping a telescope into the river"
          This is how the name of the Vorskla River appeared on the map!
          "- I'm lame!" - cried Catherine II, twisting her leg "
          This is how the name of Yakhroma appeared on the map. wassat
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 15 2021 14: 43
            +5
            In connection with Catherine II, you can still consider the origin of the toponym Kem.
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 15 2021 12: 41
          +6
          A friendly joke! Here we have no time for jokes!
          I will add some courage to the discussion: there is also the Ponoy River and the village of Teriberka!
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 15 2021 12: 51
            +4
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            there is also the Ponoy river and the village of Teriberka!

            Yes, the rest was renamed:
            wassat
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 13: 10
              +5
              Yes, the rest was renamed

              And they appointed a hut to each village ... repeat
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 15 2021 13: 53
                +4
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                And they appointed a hut to each village ...

                Nikolay, the Bobkovs' huts are still there:
                drinks
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 14: 03
                  +5
                  Nikolay, the Bobkovs' huts are still there:

                  Sergei, how boring we live ... laughing There are whole Mexican passions - especially on the territory of the barnyard ... fellow
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov April 15 2021 14: 07
                    +3
                    Quote: Pane Kohanku
                    Sergei, how boring we live ... laughing There are whole Mexican passions there - especially on the territory of the barnyard ...

                    It looks like the authors of modern soap operas draw inspiration from old newspapers. drinks
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 14: 10
                      +6
                      draw inspiration from old newspapers

                      ... the times of the Ochakovskys and the conquest of the Crimea ...
                      Sergei, have you watched the "Great" TV series? A third of the episode about the overthrow of Peter III was enough for me. It was necessary to try very, very hard to remove such a tough bullshit! negative
                      1. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov April 15 2021 15: 32
                        +5
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Sergei, have you watched the "Great" TV series? A third of the episode about the overthrow of Peter III was enough for me. It was necessary to try very, very hard to remove such a tough bullshit!

                        I have not watched, Nikolai, I rarely watch historical films in general, and our modern historical serials never at all. hi
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 15: 38
                        +6
                        I have not watched, Nikolai, I rarely watch historical films in general, and our modern historical serials never at all.

                        Sergey, I would not watch it either, but about a month or a month and a half ago it was shown on some historical channel! I switched it over, looked for fifteen minutes - just the episode where Peter is first removed, then killed ... Taki - with a blade! No. Well, you get the idea .. negative
                      3. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov April 15 2021 15: 41
                        +4
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Taki - with a blade!

                        Ay-ay, not historically, as far as I remember he died from hemorrhoidal colic? hi
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 15: 59
                        +4
                        Ay-ay, not historically, as far as I remember he died from hemorrhoidal colic?

                        "Mother - he is not in the world. But no one thought of this, and how can we plan to raise our hands against the Emperor! But, Empress, trouble has happened. He argued at the table with Prince Fyodor, we did not have time to separate him, but he was gone." We ourselves do not remember what we did; but every one is guilty, worthy of execution. Have mercy on me, even for my brother. I have brought you my guilt, and there’s nothing to look for. Forgive me, or order me to finish quickly. crying
                        Previously, this text was positioned as the third letter of Alexei Orlov from Ropsha. Now it is considered a fake, composed by the scoundrel Rostopchin, and through the aged Dashkova transferred to Alexander I. According to Rostopchin, they say, immediately after the death of Empress Catherine, they, together with Paul, went through her papers. Pavel read this note and threw it into the fire, but the cunning-backed count allegedly managed to make a list from this document. hi
                        It was painfully suspicious that this letter appeared ... Apparently, the "crazy Fedka" really wanted to return to big politics! request
                      5. Black lotos
                        Black lotos April 15 2021 21: 55
                        +3
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        "Mother - he is not in the world. But no one thought of this, and how can we plan to raise our hands against the Emperor! But, Empress, trouble has happened. He argued at the table with Prince Fyodor, we did not have time to separate him, but he was no longer there." We ourselves do not remember what we did; but every one is guilty, worthy of execution. Have mercy on me, even for my brother. I have brought you my guilt, and there’s nothing to look for. Forgive me or order me to finish it soon.

                        is in the novel by Emelyan Pugachev.
                        This is also a stylized version of 3 of Alexey's letter.
                        There is even a version that Alexei arrived after the murder. But he took over.
                      6. Edward Vashchenko
                        April 15 2021 21: 59
                        +5
                        but the cunning count supposedly managed to
                        photo, to your smartphone laughing
                      7. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku April 16 2021 10: 08
                        +3
                        photo, to your smartphone

                        Either the count had a good memory, or a good fantasy! wink
                      8. Mihaylov
                        Mihaylov April 16 2021 11: 29
                        +2
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        Either the count had a good memory, or a good fantasy!

                        Either a dodgy mind hi
                      9. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku April 16 2021 11: 36
                        +2
                        Either a dodgy mind

                        I think this definition is the most accurate! yes
          2. Black lotos
            Black lotos April 15 2021 21: 45
            +4
            Quote: Mihaylov
            I rarely watch historical films in general, and our modern historical series never at all

            if Great is a "historical series" .... then I don't even know ...
            It's not even the Tudors ... or the Borgia ...
            some kind of fantasy comedy ..
          3. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku April 16 2021 10: 08
            +2
            some kind of fantasy comedy ..

            I'm talking about it! request here ... this is ... they are filming! recourse
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 13: 12
    +4
    Teriberka

    There "Leviathan" was filmed .... But the origin of the name has not been disclosed! request
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 15 2021 13: 41
      +4
      "Teriberka" is probably something like "humanism" performed by a puny teenager.
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov April 15 2021 13: 52
        +4
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Teriberka "is probably something like" humanism "performed by a puny teenager.

        I know Teribuni in the Pskov region - hence the questions:
        1) Teribuni and Teriberka are related names?
        2) if related, then the puny teenager is the same? or different? wassat
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 14: 01
          +5
          I know Teribuni in the Pskov region

          I was always captivated by the name Ludoni on the Pskov highway. It also smacks of Terebovlem. wassat
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 13: 59
        +4
        "Teriberka" is probably something like "humanism" performed by a puny teenager.

        One well-known footballer does not look like a puny teenager ... wink
        That is, the village was founded on the site of an ancient terebostoy?
        Mikhail, I’m even afraid to imagine what Vasilko Terebovlsky was doing, but, apparently, the famous saying came from him: "They go blind from pulling!" request
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 15 2021 13: 36
    +4
    and went to America
    Exactly! Their descendants later drove cattle to Russia across the Kola Peninsula. Hence the name of the village Kovdor - "cow gate".
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 14: 04
      +4
      Exactly! Their descendants later drove cattle to Russia across the Kola Peninsula. Hence the name of the village Kovdor - "cow gate".

      Leaving the liver in the Pechenga, the Algonquins "hemmed in". The second time they were drunk by the already pale-faced representatives of the Anglo-Saxon super-ethnos - fire water. request
  • Edward Vashchenko
    April 15 2021 07: 03
    +6
    This is a rather formulaic presentation of the history of the Slavs, which is taught in high school.

    Good morning, maybe it's good that we are taught what we need at school good
    1. Konnick
      Konnick April 15 2021 07: 59
      -1
      Good)
      The classical academic exposition with reference to sources, those sources, refer to other sources, and there you cannot find the ends, although the primary sources will be German academicians with the theory of the arrival of the Varangians in Russia, or maybe vice versa? Maybe it's time to study history from modern research as modern archaeological finds, as paleogenetic research, etc. The Christian Church diligently destroyed the traces of the Slavic civilization, but this time is gone, it is time to engage in objective research, despite the former authorities. Remember the birch bark letters that proved the literacy of the Slavs.
      And I would like to know your attitude to the kurgan theory of Maria Gimbutas.
      Sometimes, after reading an article, I want to exclaim UKHTY, and then find out that in Sanskrit this word means admiration, amazement, you remember the Ukhta river ...
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        April 15 2021 08: 13
        +9
        Remember the birch bark letters that proved the literacy of the Slavs.

        It is still necessary to reach this period, otherwise it turns out from a three-year-old you demand what an eight-year-old should know. Just kidding. laughing
        1. Konnick
          Konnick April 15 2021 08: 45
          +1
          It is still necessary to reach this period

          Not to reach, but to get to the bottom. Here's a snap

          The oldest cultural layer of the Rurik settlement in Veliky Novgorod, dating back to the 2015th - first half of the XNUMXth century, that is, at least half a century earlier than the vocation of the Varangians, was discovered by an expedition of the Institute for the History of Material Culture of the Russian Academy of Sciences (IIMK RAS) in XNUMX during excavations of the most ancient fortification Rurik's settlement - a rampart fortified with log cabins. “We managed to establish that the log cabins go under the ruins of the Church of the Annunciation and to find a cultural layer under the rampart. These findings "make the history of the Rurik settlement more ancient" by at least half a century and prove the existence of a settlement here before Rurik, "Ivan Eremeev, deputy head of the Novgorod archaeological expedition of the Institute for History and Culture of the Russian Academy of Sciences, told IA REGNUM.

          And you mean some kind of tribal relations. There was already a state. The Slavs were not so wild, the church represents them so because they were pagans. But Rome and Greece are also pagans, but with what kind of culture and science, which medieval Christians never dreamed of.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 15 2021 10: 02
            +9
            Quote: Konnick
            These findings "make the history of the Rurik settlement more ancient" by at least half a century and prove the existence of a settlement here before Rurik

            Ladoga existed before Rurik. The Lyubshanskoe settlement existed before Ladoga. Many fortified settlements on the territory of Russia are more fearful not only of Rurik, but also of his great-grandfather. So what? What conclusions are we going to draw?
            1. Richard
              Richard April 15 2021 11: 22
              +5

              Misha, hello hi
              Many fortified settlements on the territory of Russia are more fearful not only of Rurik, but also of his great-grandfather

              Yes, at least the same centers of the Krivichi population, Beloozero (Buluzer) and Izborsk (Izborst)
              About which the first written mention dates back to 862. The Tale of Bygone Years says:
              ... the old Rurik sѣde Novѣgorodѣ · and the other Sineѹs on Bѣlѣѡzerѣ · and the third Izborstѣ · Truvor ...

              but about Novgorod and Ladoga First mentioned in Russian chronicles as early as 859
              1. Richard
                Richard April 15 2021 11: 28
                +6
                The Lyubshanskoe settlement existed before Ladoga.

                And the Slovenian settlement on the Prost River generally dates back to no later than the 7th century.
                Excavations in 1997-1999 led by BD Ershevsky on the Prost River revealed materials from the third quarter of the XNUMXst millennium (originated in the XNUMXth century), that is, the earliest Slavic antiquities in the source of the Volkhov, chronologically earlier than the strata in Staraya Ladoga
                link: Alekseev S.V. Slovene on Volkhov. // Slavic Europe of the VII-VIII centuries. M., 2007 p.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master April 15 2021 11: 57
                  +6
                  Greetings, Dmitry.
                  I agree that there are many such settlements. For me, the question of who ended up on the territory of Priilmenye and Povolkhovye earlier - the Scandinavians or the Slavs - seems to have been resolved in favor of the Slavs, albeit with a slight advantage. However, the presence of such settlements does not at all give grounds to speak of the existence of the state.
              2. Konnick
                Konnick April 15 2021 14: 47
                0
                First mentioned in Russian chronicles as early as 859


                Chronicle of 859 ???
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri April 15 2021 10: 07
            +5
            Quote: Konnick
            And you mean some kind of tribal relations. There was already a state.

            How does the find in the Rurik settlement of a piece of the rampart, which makes it 50 years older, proves that the Slavs have a state? There are no other reasons for building a "fence" other than the presence of a state, and cannot there be?
          3. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 15 2021 11: 37
            +5
            Quote: Konnick
            And you mean some kind of tribal relations. There was already a state.

            Sorry, but I.I. Eremeev, to whom you are referring, showed the existence of a small and primitively fortified with stepped escarpments of a Slavic settlement (highlighted in "Rurik settlement II) on the site of Rurikov Settlement in the VII-VIII centuries, apparently associated with the early stages of Slavic colonization of Priilmenye, which ceases to exist at the end VIII - early IX century, judging by the plowing over it.
            Such an escarpment was found, for example, at such a well-known early Slavic monument as the settlement of Khotomel13. The closest parallels of Rurikov Gorodishche 2 are the stepped fortifications of Gorodok on Mayat (V-VII centuries) and Bronnitsky Hill (VII-VIII centuries) in Eastern Priilmenye. Probably something similar existed in the 2th century. and at Kholopye Gorodok. Along with the latter, the hill fortification of Rurikov Gorodishche XNUMX seems to be one of the latest monuments on Ilmen, made in this archaic fortification technique.
            (I.I. Eremeev)
            And what does the state have to do with it?
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              April 15 2021 13: 06
              +7
              Sergey welcome !!!
              I remember in 1991 I, a yellow-bellied student, argued with the highly respected A.N. Kirpichnikov on fortifications in Staraya Ladoga.
              There are no questions, during the period of colonization, the Eastern Slavs erected fortifications, and I am writing about this, without this existence was not possible, but building these fortifications into a symbol of statehood is in no way possible, this is not only modernization, this is a profanation of the historical process.
      2. Edward Vashchenko
        April 15 2021 08: 17
        +10
        And I would like to know your attitude to the kurgan theory of Maria Gimbutas.

        Well, in theory, one of many, and given the American desire for sensation, a very good publicity stunt. However, this does not change anything in our particular story, since we find our ancestors at a lower level of social development, and this is key.
        As there is nothing shameful, in the fact that someone is three years old, and someone is 15. It is not important the beginning, the final result is important!
        Where are those "cliffs"?
        1. Konnick
          Konnick April 15 2021 08: 48
          0
          Where are those "cliffs"?

          Again, information from the chronicles that describe a history that happened centuries before the Christian chronicler was born, who already has a prejudiced opinion towards the Turkic-speaking peoples with their Islam.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer April 15 2021 10: 30
            +7
            Enough. Honestly enough. Obry-Avars were not Muslims. Vaenga is clearly a Finnish hydronym. Slavic civilization was dug up and down.
            For the language of the Slavs, especially the ancient ones, the following vowels one after another is completely unusual.
            On the contrary, the oldest hydronyms of the Slavs show a combination of several consonants in a row - Vltava, Prtva
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master April 15 2021 11: 20
              +6
              Quote: Engineer
              Enough. Honestly enough.

              - Yes, yes, yes .. There are such thoughts .. Sometimes I want to take five hundred grams of trotylchik and tutuduf .. And beauty ..

              (c) Brigade
              smile
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov April 15 2021 11: 52
          +4
          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          Where are those "cliffs"?

          They perished, like obry! drinks
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 15 2021 13: 44
            +3
            "Yak shvets shackled" (C)
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master April 15 2021 09: 47
    +4
    Quote: Konnick
    Voinga river in Karelia

    In Karelia there is the Vonga River and the Voinitsa River. I have not heard of Voinga.
    So you want to say that the Sami have conquered everyone? So they went from north to south, distributing their "deer" names to the rivers? And we reached India, which is clear evidence of the presence of Slavic words in Sanskrit? Did I understand you correctly?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 15 2021 10: 06
      +8
      Ottozh !!! We got it as it is! They also trampled on Rome! The generic name of Allarich is "Sampo-loparenok"!
      1. Richard
        Richard April 15 2021 11: 42
        +5
        well, if you really strictly adhere to the historical documents of that time, then - "Sampos-filius lappet junior" literally - "Sampo-lappet junior"
        Sorry, Anton, although you are a birthday boy, the truth is more precious yes drinks
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 15 2021 14: 08
          +3
          Sorry, Anton, even though you are a birthday boy,
          It was yesterday, and today is the author of the article.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 15: 12
            +3
            It was yesterday, and today is the author of the article.

            Uncover your mandolin, minnesinger - fortunately, there is a reason! wink We'll give Shpakovsky maracas, we'll put the Corsair on the double bass, and the Sea Cat will sing! And yes, the saxophone solo is Bubalik. drinks
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 15 2021 15: 19
              +3
              Look, damn it, ordered! Here, Mr. Captain, you are not a regimental band! At least I remembered the name of the instrument: lute.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 15: 24
                +3
                Here, Mr. Captain, you are not a regimental band! At least I remembered the name of the instrument: lute.

                We can call Alexei "Boltorez" with a bagpipes, and we will have a Scottish regimental orchestra! soldier But we will not wear skirts - not our style! stop
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 15 2021 15: 33
                  +3
                  Uh-huh. And we will give you a "Stradivarius drum".
              2. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov April 15 2021 15: 39
                +5
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                At least I remembered the name of the instrument: lute.

                Väinämöinen playing the kantele:
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 15 2021 15: 49
                  +4
                  If we consider the place of my birth, then only the jew's harp. And I doubt it ...
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 15 2021 21: 10
              +3
              We did not study in gymnasiums. But always ready to pick up.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 16 2021 10: 50
                +3
                We did not study in gymnasiums. But always ready to pick up.

                With the double bass everything is simple, Sergei - pluck the strings. lol What happens will do. yes One God, all the attention will be on the Sea Cat ... in a tight-fitting jumpsuit with rhinestones and cowboy boots ... wink drinks
                1. Mihaylov
                  Mihaylov April 16 2021 11: 36
                  +2
                  Quote: Pane Kohanku
                  all the attention will be on the Sea Cat ... in a tight-fitting jumpsuit with rhinestones and cowboy boots ...

                  And we’ll give the girl some more - to treat everyone with beer ... drinks
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku April 16 2021 11: 38
                    +3
                    And we’ll give the girl another - to treat everything to beer ...

                    Just tell her not to turn in front of the ensemble! stop Otherwise, from what he saw, Anton will mix up the strings on the mandolin, and the Sea Cat will forget the words ... lol drinks
                2. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 16 2021 14: 21
                  +2
                  "You can't drag a piano with you on a hike,
                  You won't leave a violin in a box with cheese,
                  And up the Nile, I think, barely
                  The bodies will be transported to the camps by ferry.

                  I wander among the copper pots
                  In the immediate vicinity of the ham.
                  But when the detachment, tired, is ready to fall, -
                  You would listen to my perky shout!

                  Hear: pilli-willie-winkie-winkie-popp!
                  (Oh, does it matter what comes to mind?)
                  I tease them until they say stop!
                  I lead them behind me - a platoon behind the platoon. "(C).
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku April 16 2021 14: 25
                    +2
                    Sergey, are these your poems? drinks
                    You will not drag a piano along with you on a hike,
                    Don't leave a violin in a box with cheese

                    "A dead snake does not hiss, does not chirp a dead goldfinch .." ("Forbidden Drummers", a cult song). Continue further? lol drinks
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 16 2021 15: 45
                      +2
                      Of course not.

                      This is one of Kipling's masterpieces.
                      Various translation options.
                      I like this one better.
                    2. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku April 16 2021 15: 48
                      +2
                      I like this one better.

                      Kipling is a man of the era ... Thanks for the poems! drinks
                      “Have you forgotten what your mother told you? - Asked Thorny Hedgehog. - After all, she clearly told you:
                      Who will curl up in a ball
                      Reputed to be a turtle.
                      Who will float in the water
                      He is called the Hedgehog.
                      Then they both curled up into balls and how they went to ride around the Jaguar, rolled, rolled, rolled ... Even his eyes were dizzy, like wheels in a carriage.
                      ("Where did the battleships come from").
                    3. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 16 2021 20: 59
                      +2
                      Until now, a fan of Kipling from fairy tales and "Mowgli" to "If".
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku April 15 2021 12: 18
    +4
    The generic name of Allarich is "Sampo-loparenok"!

    Anton, you messed with Attila! Alaric's name was "Merry Lemminkainen". lol
  • Konnick
    Konnick April 15 2021 14: 50
    +2
    There is a Vonga region in Karelia

    She is Voinga, stems from Voingozero.
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 15 2021 21: 49
      +1
      Wonga flows out of Engoser. If the names are so distorted, then of course anything can turn out. It is much more difficult to ask about the true etymology of the word.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick April 15 2021 22: 14
        +1
        Wonga flows out of Engoser. If the names are so distorted, then of course anything can turn out. It is much more difficult to ask about the true etymology of the word.

        Less emotion in distorting words and do not pretend to be true.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 16 2021 00: 19
          +2
          Ueli ... laughing
          I really didn't know about this twenty-kilometer rivulet. I applaud you.
          Well, now you can rightfully assert that ... where the Slavs went there and from where, I have already forgotten ... On the way, calling the rivers "howl", "wai" and "wuy" ...
          Well, a little to the west, apparently, the Slavs passed - the Voynitsa River is located in the west of Karelia. laughing
          No, is it really not funny to you yourself?
  • Konnick
    Konnick April 15 2021 16: 22
    +1
    So they walked from north to south

    Just the opposite.
  • sniperino
    sniperino April 15 2021 11: 05
    0
    Quote: Konnick
    Hydronyms are the oldest names for the area.
    The similarity of the names of the rivers Don, Dnieper, Dniester and Danube and the proximity of their mouths with a considerable distance from the sources indicates that they were called by the people who lived in the lower reaches of the rivers (in the Northern Black Sea region), and not in the upper or middle reaches. In the Rig Veda, Danu (the Sanskrit word means "stream") is the mother of the gods. The northern Black Sea region is the ancestral home of the Aryans, and the Slavs here are autochthons: they did not come from anywhere, but here they were. There is such a version.
  • Sergey Sfiedu
    Sergey Sfiedu April 15 2021 19: 14
    +2
    And what does the Sami have to do with it
    In one very thick book on the history of the Slavs, I found an amusing passage. An archaeological study of the northeastern lands revealed such a phenomenon - in the Finno-Ugric settlements, the male inventory is suddenly replaced by the Slavic one, and the female inventory remains Finno-Ugric. Roughly speaking, it is said about another eroch and other places, but the essence is the same - "their men were chopped into a stump, and women and children were taken for themselves." Vaenga is never a Slavic name.
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 15 2021 06: 06
    +8
    Good morning everyone and have a nice day,
    It seems that they all had the same clan-tribal system, but how different these tribes were. Is it really the different type of management that influenced so much?

    The glades had the custom of their fathers, meek and quiet ... They also have a marriage custom: the son-in-law does not go after the bride, but they bring her the day before, and the next day they bring for her what they give.
    And the Drevlyans lived in a bestial custom, lived in a bestial manner: they killed each other, ate unclean things and they never had any marriages, but they abducted the girls by the water.
    And the Radimichi, Vyatichi and Northerners had a common custom, they lived in the forest, like all animals, and they never got married ... "


    PS The dance with jambs continues.






















    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 15 2021 07: 31
      +7
      Good morning Konstantin!
      Is it really the different type of management that influenced so much?

      Yes, here we can only assume based on the available ethnographic material: all this was interconnected: the environment influenced the economic type, it, in turn, influenced the ideological ideas of the tribe, and so on in a circle. As I referred to Levi-Strauss, it was a vicious circle. He's a tough question, how did he open up. In the case of the Eastern Slavs, the "vocation of the Varangians" was significantly influenced, as the next article is about. Often an external factor significantly influenced the process, it seems that, for example, the Franks, having conquered the Saxons, significantly influenced them. But how did this process take place, for example, at the Goths? We don't know at all.
      hi
      1. Richard
        Richard April 15 2021 15: 37
        +5
        Sorry, Anton, even though you are a birthday boy,

        It was yesterday, and today is the author of the article.


        Eduard, please accept my most sincere congratulations!
        with respect
        Dmitriy
        love drinks
  • parusnik
    parusnik April 15 2021 06: 34
    +7
    I read it with pleasure. I look forward to continuing.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 15 2021 07: 04
      +8
      Good morning,
      will be! hi
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 15 2021 07: 09
    +7
    It is believed that at the time of the settlement of the Slavs across the East European Plain, the climate was milder than now.
    2,5 centuries after the beginning of the Late Antique Little Ice Age? Doubtful.
    Thanks Edward!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 15 2021 07: 57
      +8
      Anton, good morning,
      I write, "presumably" laughing
      “Approximately in the VIII - XIII centuries. the climate everywhere became relatively warm, - write the authors of the work "A thousand-year chronicle of extraordinary natural phenomena", - this period was called the small climatic optimum. "
      C7 55.
      hi
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 15 2021 08: 12
        +5
        Hello Edward!
        In your quote, I am confused by the word "ubiquitous" and the time period.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 15 2021 08: 19
          +8
          Anton, as is, as is hi
          Therefore, write - "presumably", we have no clearer data
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 15 2021 09: 31
            +10
            It’s me out of boredom to find fault. As I understand it, the next article is about the "calling of the Vikings"? This is where the Sabbath itself begins in the comments! "Obscurantism and jazz" (C)
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master April 15 2021 10: 30
              +9
              I am already beginning to accumulate bile.
              The main thing is to publish it in the morning, and not in the evening. After six, the anger and energy are not the same. laughing
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave April 15 2021 10: 37
                +8
                So I am about that! Edward does not yet know how much the "Normanists" are loved here.
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 15 2021 09: 25
    +7
    This is not a retelling of successive historical events, but the first work of a cycle dedicated to the phased development of Russia - Russia

    There was a distinct smell of Samson's super-ethnos.
    based on current scientific research on the topic.

    It was such a promising start, but alas. The basis of the article is the paragraph "East Slavic and Finno-Ugric tribes and unions" from the history textbook of Kiselev and Popov for the sixth grade.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer April 15 2021 10: 47
      +6
      There was a distinct smell of Samson's super-ethnos.

      Super-union-super-ethnos?
      On the contrary, it seems. Instead of Hyperborean Rus, we read about the ethnogenesis of the Slavs quite within the framework of official history
      It was such a promising start, but alas. The basis of the article is the paragraph "East Slavic and Finno-Ugric tribes and unions" from the history textbook of Kiselev and Popov for the sixth grade.

      You are overly critical. It seemed to me that the basis of the article is the tribal system among the Slavs within the framework of the Levi-Strauss concept
      You can blame the author for something else. For example, there is little archeology and it is not systemic. The Eastern Slavs are primarily the Volyntsev and Luka-Raikovets cultures. I would like to tell you about them. Moreover, this is a logical continuation of the early Slavic antiquities of the Penkovo ​​and Prague cultures about which the author wrote. The second aspect is the problem of the Slavs-Balts. The author does not even have a schematic explanation of the problem at the level of at least one concept.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim April 15 2021 12: 31
        +5
        The second aspect is the problem of the Slavs-Balts.

        And also the problem of "Slavs-Chud", which the author placed in a mythical "test super-union".
        1. Engineer
          Engineer April 15 2021 12: 47
          +8
          The summary is
          1. The author did not show the continuity of the Eastern Slavs of the 8th century from the most ancient Slavic cultures of the 5-6th century. At least a couple of paragraphs would be needed. As a result, the harmony of the presentation was disrupted from the very beginning.
          2. The author did not give a clear description of the environment of the Eastern Slavs. Baty, Finno-Ugric. Need a geographic and time reference. By the way, another very important element is the Khazars (the Saltov-Mayak culture is fully or partially compared with them.). Judging by the excavations, from their presence the Eastern Slavs felt bad starting from the 7-8 centuries.
          3. It would be very nice to explain the much greater advancement of the Western Slavs in the construction of early state formations. Why the Eastern Slavs from the very beginning look like poor relatives in every sense.

          There is a reason to scold the author.

          But it is still not necessary to compare with Samsonov.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim April 15 2021 12: 50
            +4
            The ancestors of the Eastern Slavs lived in the middle Dnieper region, the Carpathian region. From here, as well as from Powisle, the Slavs began to advance to the north, east and north-east.

            It would still not be bad to highlight the views on the reason for the "start of advancement".
          2. Edward Vashchenko
            April 15 2021 13: 23
            +7
            Denis, good afternoon!
            There is a reason to scold the author.

            This is important!
            I share many of your settings, but the text format does not allow everything.

            About V-VIII centuries. I have already written so much that I did not dare to post one more article on this subject, but it is. About the Western Slavs - the material should be extensive, went towards the Eastern laughing
            Best regards hi
            1. Engineer
              Engineer April 15 2021 13: 29
              +5
              About V-VIII centuries. I have already written so much that I did not dare to post one more article on this subject, but it is

              It was necessary to have one paragraph - a summary in the introduction and a link. As a reminder. Half (at least) of the people have forgotten from what time the reliable ethnogenesis of the Slavs begins, traced by a retrospective method. The other half just doesn't know.
              About the Western Slavs - the material should be extensive, went towards the Eastern

              There is no need to delve into the western ones. But it is very important to explain why the Eastern Slavs of that time were at least one step behind the Western ones, as for me.
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          April 15 2021 13: 12
          +7
          Victor Nikolaevich,
          welcome
          a small remark, a hewn super-union, not mythical, but stable scientific terms used in scientific literature for about 50 years.
          With respect hi
          1. Undecim
            Undecim April 15 2021 13: 27
            +4
            And I greet you.
            I'm not talking about the term as such, but about the fact that a hypothetical political formation is presented as a completely proven, well-known event, covering all Eastern Slavs and all Finno-Ugric peoples.
  • lucul
    lucul April 15 2021 09: 27
    -2
    The ancestors of the Eastern Slavs lived in the middle Dnieper region, the Carpathian region. From here, as well as from Powisle, the Slavs began to advance to the north, east and north-east.

    I disagree. The Carpathian Slavs are mountain Slavs, with a mountain mentality. Usually all dogmas, religions, laws, language, customs and mentality of the people come from the cradle of civilization. If the Slavs were born as an ethnos in Volyn, then the entire mentality of the Slavs would be identical to Volyn.
    The Volyn highlanders have a different mentality compared to the Slavs who live on the plains and in the forests.
    1. arturpraetor
      arturpraetor April 15 2021 10: 38
      +9
      Quote: lucul
      Volyn mountaineers

      What kind of Volyn mountaineers have? Volyn is a plain mixed with forests and swamps. There are no mountains, the mountains are to the south. Volhynia even Podolsk Upland only slightly covers, there is still no place for the Carpathians proper.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 15 2021 13: 52
        +5
        Oh, Artyom showed up! Hello! And since the end of December, greetings from "Andrey from Chelyabinsk" have been hanging from me. Here, I'm passing it on
    2. Richard
      Richard April 15 2021 10: 39
      +9
      .
      If the Slavs originated as an ethnos in Volyn, then the entire mentality of the Slavs would be identical to Volyn.
      The Volyn highlanders have a different mentality compared to the Slavs who live on the plains and in the forests.

      Good morning, Vitaly hi
      It seems to me that you yourself have already answered your own question.
      Mentality is not constant, it is shaped by the environment and climatic factors. At one time, when I got to serve in the Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug, I was simply amazed at the honesty and commitment of the locals. Literally in the little things. A typical example:
      Night, sleep, doorbell. Unfamiliar man: - "It's good that I found you, I had to call several apartments. Now I was skidded on the ice and I accidentally scratched your car. Here is my passport, please give me the documents for your car and keys, I will drive it to the service station in the morning. Everything will be done in the best possible way. "
      A couple of days later, the car returned without scratches with new alloy disks and a new CD - radio (a huge rarity in the late 90s) in the trunk.
  • depressant
    depressant April 15 2021 09: 37
    +6
    I liked the article because it explained for me personally, an ignorant, many riddles about the structure of Slavic communities. But new riddles appeared. How could it happen that the Slavs, having come from the Carpathians, from the Dnieper region, appeared at the same time, as if from nowhere? It never happened, and now they are. What were the conditions for the emergence of such a powerful passionary explosion, spreading like smoke, over time to all accessible cardinal points of the world across Europe? We lived on the sly and suddenly once - an explosion, and crawled. Why did the Romans not previously visit the epicenter, left their traces in the form of domestication? We got to the British Isle, sat there for 400 years, but here they seemed not to be standing. And the Greeks - why? Maybe because the entire civilized south was cut off from these territories by a powerful steppe hostile to everything in the world, which is not of civilizational interest to anyone because of its wild structure - not sedentary? And then you have to return to the epicenter theory again. Maybe it was the lurking remnants of the Celts, that is, the weak of them, lagging behind on the route of their main mass to the West? But now, they multiplied and, calling themselves different tribal names, exploded in favorable directions. Despite the fact that the great steppe constantly bled them. It turns out that the steppe forced the Slavs, seized by an unconscious need for civilizational development, to move to places where there was no horror from it. But then who are the Russians who ended the article so effectively?
    I apologize for asking questions that, perhaps, are not a secret for anyone but me)))
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 15 2021 10: 37
      +7
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, the answers to your questions were partly given by the author in his previous articles on the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, and partly you yourself have already answered them.
      Quote: depressant
      Maybe because the entire civilized south was cut off from these territories by a powerful steppe hostile to everything in the world,

      Only not the steppe, but much more difficult to pass through forests and swamps. smile
      Well, the Russians are Scandinavians who settled among the Slavs.
      1. depressant
        depressant April 15 2021 10: 54
        +6
        Scandinavians ... That's it. Thank you, Misha!)))
        That is, the Russians are not Celts. Therefore, mostly blue-eyed blondes.
        Recently I happened to read that the remains of a black man with blue eyes were found in England. He was killed. No, not because of racism. It was then, 9 thousand years ago, that there were locals who had time to lighten their eyes due to a lack of lighting in comparison with the African and the consumption of fish, and their hair and skin did not have time. But the Scandinavians, who came to us and became Ross, were in time. So the Scandinavians. A trifle, but nice.
        The most interesting thing is that when I watched the Norwegian disaster films, I was amazed: how these people are similar to us in their behavior and general mentality! Americans and others are not alike, but these are just a copy of us. Only the natural conditions are different, a small territory, the absence of too persistent enemies. Which ultimately had a beneficial effect on development.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 15 2021 11: 47
          +7
          Are you not being ironic now? The linguistic construction "ruotsi - roosi - rus" here, in the process of discussing various topics dedicated to the vocation of the Varangians, should have already set the teeth on edge.
          1. depressant
            depressant April 15 2021 12: 35
            +5
            Misha, I'm not ironing at all. For I did not participate in those discussions and did not read the articles. Only the one where it was said about Rurik, called upon to unite under his rule territories unfriendly to each other, who want to change this situation ... But I was convinced that he was one such Scandinavian, and those who called him to the Scandinavians have no relationship. And now it turns out that theirs have called their own?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master April 15 2021 13: 38
              +8
              Ladoga was multi-ethnic. There was also a significant, perhaps even the predominant share of the Scandinavian substrate in it. But Slavs and Finno-Ugrians also took part in the "vocation", if such was the case.
              One thing is absolutely certain: the Ruriks are the descendants of the Scandinavians, and Rus was the name given to the natives of Scandinavia and their descendants, who settled among the Slavs and quickly became glorified. The Scandinavian ethnonym first became a concept denoting the social belonging of its bearer (roughly speaking, a warrior), and then returned to its previous meaning, but this time in relation to another people - the Slavs.
          2. Richard
            Richard April 15 2021 16: 24
            +6
            Recently I happened to read that the remains of a black man with blue eyes were found in England. He was killed. No, not because of racism. It was then, 9 thousand years ago, that there were locals who had time to lighten their eyes due to a lack of lighting in comparison with the African and the consumption of fish, and their hair and skin did not have time.

            Dudmila Yakovlevna, do you mean the remains of a man from Cheddar? So only an incomplete skeleton was found from him.

            blue eyes, black skin and curly hair are just the assumptions of the reenactors. Twins named Kennis were involved in the restoration of the appearance of the so-called man from Cheddar, who made the first DNA from the best-preserved temporal bone.

            Repeated DNA studies, including by Cary Banks Mullis himself, did not confirm this sensation. Here is what the Nobel laureate himself writes:
            Scientists from several of the world's leading laboratories have "thoroughly shoveled" the DNA of 20 Cheder humans. The results of the study of the genome of the Cheddar man indicate that he was lactose intolerant - his body could not digest milk and dairy products in adulthood. The presence of blue, or some other eyes and the color of his epidermis is out of the question. Unfortunately, according to the available material, science is not yet available.
            The people who conducted the primary DNA research either used dubious research methods, or "succumbed to leftist propaganda" and distort the data of archeology "for the sake of political correctness and sensational excitement
            1. depressant
              depressant April 15 2021 20: 40
              +5
              Dmitry, thank you for clarifying this information. This is exactly the person I read about, and he, the person, did not want to leave my memory. And now it's even a little pity that he is not what he was presented at first. And he thinks about something else: how difficult is the work of a historian! You have to rely on meager data and a variety of opinions.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish April 15 2021 22: 22
                +5
                Luda, good evening. smile
                Don't you think that all these three guys are similar to each other like siblings? Especially if the average person has to wash his face lightly. laughing
                1. depressant
                  depressant April 15 2021 22: 45
                  +4
                  Kostya, good evening! )))
                  Looked closely, yes, there is definitely something. Descendants? wassat Or, knowing the appearance of oneself, loved ones, they blinded themselves from themselves, I admit, subconsciously. At one time I read about the works of our Gerasimov. How difficult it is to restore a portrait! As it turned out, traces remain on the skull in the places of attachment of the facial muscles, and the nature of these marks almost accurately indicates the features of soft tissues. Show me a skull - well, a skull and a skull, what could be there! And there is a huge science.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish April 15 2021 22: 52
                    +4
                    Yes, Gerasimov did a great job, moreover, as it was customary to say in his time, "long before and regardless of." smile
                    One portrait of Ivan the Terrible is worth something.
                    1. depressant
                      depressant April 15 2021 23: 17
                      +3
                      I remember this portrait. There he also had portraits of Russian women of those times, and not only Russians. And yes, I also remembered: facial expressions leave traces on the skull. Well, the skull, of course, does not deform noticeably to the naked eye, but the metabolism in places of muscle tension, that is, in places of pressure on the bone, changes. And taking into account how many times a person in his life manages, say, to smile, then there is a relief, you can see it through strong optics. Stone and water wears away)) I think that an anthropologist, examining the skull for a long time, begins to see not the skull, but the face. It's like looking at the negative for a long time, and then seeing the face, looking away.
                      By the way, at one time I considered negatives as ready-made photos: the light should fall on the film at a certain angle, - I adapted.
                      And ... oh my god! How cats under the window howl! Rock'n'roll! laughing
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish April 16 2021 00: 12
                        +3
                        Mine has been hanging around all day, now he is sleeping. For three months he was excommunicated from the street due to cystitis, this morning he was released for the first time. So now he has a lot of things to do: inspect everything, mark everything, deal with unwanted visitors to his native garden, and much more about his cat affairs. smile
    2. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov April 15 2021 12: 26
      +7
      Quote: depressant
      But then who are the Russians,

      "We are from a Russian clan - Karla, Inegeld, Farlaf, Veremud, Rulav, Guda, Ruald, Karn, Freelav, Ruar, Aktevu, Truan, Lidul, Fost, Stemid - sent from Oleg, the Russian Grand Duke, and from everyone who is under by his hand, - of light and great princes, and his great boyars, to you, Lev, Alexander and Konstantin ...

      1. depressant
        depressant April 15 2021 12: 37
        +6
        What can I say ... Awesome! Like this, live forever, be surprised)))
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master April 15 2021 10: 16
    +9
    Colleagues, hello everyone, my compliments to the author.
    Eduard, thanks for the material, there are questions.
    the outstanding Soviet archaeologist M.I. Artamonov (1898-1972) wrote:
    “Not excluding the peaceful infiltration of the Slavs into a non-tribal environment, it should still be assumed that the main thing in the process of their resettlement was military violence. This is evidenced by the comparative speed of the Slavic settlement and the ruins of their burning of Baltic and Finnish shelters - fortified settlements ”.

    Can you just name a few examples of such burnt and destroyed settlements? I'll look for Artamonov's article later (I couldn't find the text right away), but maybe you can go straight to the analysis of the settlements themselves?
    It's just that this statement contradicts my understanding of this moment of the Slavic colonization of the Finno-Ugric territories - it always seemed to me that this colonization took place mostly peacefully. By the way, the speed of resettlement, which Artamonov refers to in the above quote, in my opinion, testifies to just the opposite - the resettlement did not meet with active opposition from the locals and therefore proceeded faster.
    1. Mihaylov
      Mihaylov April 15 2021 12: 04
      +7
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      It's just that this statement contradicts my understanding of this moment of the Slavic colonization of the Finno-Ugric territories - it always seemed to me that this colonization took place mostly peacefully

      Good afternoon, Mikhail, the issue is certainly controversial. The point of view about the peaceful penetration of the Slavs into the Finno-Ugric territories was shared by the archaeologist E. Ryabinin, who was engaged in Finno-Ugric archeology in the Northwest. hi
    2. Konnick
      Konnick April 15 2021 14: 12
      +3
      It's just that this statement contradicts my understanding of this moment of the Slavic colonization of the Finno-Ugric territories - it always seemed to me that this colonization took place mostly peacefully. By the way, the speed of resettlement, which Artamonov refers to in the above quote, in my opinion, testifies to just the opposite - the resettlement did not meet with active opposition from the locals and therefore proceeded faster.


      As Yesenin wrote - Russia was lost in Mordva and Chudi ...
      Excavations of the Zolotarevskoye settlement near Penza have once again thrown many mysteries, traces of the battle and many artifacts from the Mordovians, Slavs, Burtases, Bulgars and Askiz, Europoid warriors from Altai have been preserved there. Many believe that the Mongol-Tatars captured this city, there are many Mongol arrowheads. But the remains of the Mongols were not found there, as well as the cemetery burials of the city, I hope they have not yet been found. There are even versions about the campaign of Prince Yuri Vsevolodovich against the Mordovians. Perhaps this is an example of active opposition of the local Ugro-Finnish population, but the finds of household items also represent a mishmash of Slavic, Mordovian, Bulgar objects, perhaps there was a mixed population. I also give a link to the weapons found there, the Kulikovskoe field, Ryazan and Kiev are simply resting according to the number of weapons found https://swordmaster.org/2010/09/17/oruzhie-i-dospehi-iz-zolotarevskogo-gorodischa.html#4 ...
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master April 15 2021 14: 42
        +6
        We are now talking about the early Middle Ages, not about the XIII century. Campaigns of the Suzdal people against the Bulgars, Mordovians, etc. known, but this is a slightly different process.
  • kalibr
    kalibr April 15 2021 11: 23
    +7
    Oh, the words are not of a boy, but of a husband! However, it would be difficult to expect otherwise from Edward!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 15 2021 13: 18
      +7
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, welcome! hi
  • PhilipKDick
    PhilipKDick April 15 2021 11: 47
    +3
    Hello. Thank you very much for the interesting material.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 15 2021 13: 18
      +8
      Thank you! I will continue hi
      1. kalibr
        kalibr April 15 2021 15: 00
        +6
        You are straight, Eduard, like the hero of the novel "Patent AV" by Lagin, only there he said: "I will grow!"
  • Force multiplier
    Force multiplier April 15 2021 12: 16
    0
    I saw accusations in the comments that the article was a retelling of the 6th grade textbook. But any works about "Slavs" based on "official" ideas, by definition, will not exceed this level (although the author knows the material perfectly, as can be seen from his previous articles) There were no "Slavs" and there are no, this term is a derogatory exonym. Therefore, the officialdom places the "ancestral home of the Slavs" in the deserted Pripyat bogs - the rest of the territory of the east. Europe is beautifully described by ancient authors, and there is simply no other place for the "ancestral home"

    In fact, the term "Slavs" meant ethnic groups of different origins that had lost their statehood (K. Bagryanorodny did not rank Russia among the "Slavs", but when Russia adopted Christianity and at the same time fell into vassal dependence on Byzantium, it became "Slavs" from the T.Z. of Constantinople, which through the church and began to impose this identity on Russia)

    Buzhany - (?) From hydronym, possibly tracing paper (Vandal?) From Gotha
    Volynians - Germans from the Baltic Sea
    Duleby -?
    Glade - Sarmatians sowing. the Black Sea
    Drevlyans - Goth-Tervingi
    Dregovichi - the same as the Drevlyans
    White Croats - Greatung Goths
    Radimichi -?
    Krivichi -?
    Northerners - Savirs
    Slovenian Ilmenian - the term is used in the original sense - the population of the German (Vandal) colony, dependent on the overseas metropolis
    Rus - Germans from the Baltic Sea
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 15 2021 13: 11
      +10
      Oh-ho-ho, our grave sins ...
      Quote: Force Multiplier
      There were no "Slavs" and there are no, this term is a derogatory exonym

      So I sit and think - go straight to the person or ask the documents first?
      I will do this: first I will ask, and then immediately on the person. laughing
      So, my friend: your papers? Deign to explain what your such non-trivial statements are based on.
      Well, now it is possible on the individual. laughing
      I have long been bothered by some individuals who are not burdened with great intelligence, who consider Russia the homeland of elephants, hippos and hummingbirds, but I seem to have gotten used to them a little. I am already amazed at her by the Aryans who lived in the mountain forests and who invented a wheel with spokes and a cart there. Ancient Slavic burial grounds in Britain also no longer seem like exotic manifestations of a crippled mind - they are perceived as a common pathology.
      But your revelation pulls, in my understanding, a full-fledged prize for the most original manifestation of critical dementia. If such were awarded, you could safely consider yourself its laureate. Are you sure your adherence to such "scientific" concepts has left you with an upright posture? Check if you suddenly feel that you are drawn to rest your hand on the floor in the process of movement - immediately run to the library (this is a place where there are many books) and request books there according to the list attached by the author of the article at the end. And read, read, read. Otherwise - khan, in six months you will forget how to speak, and in a year you will begin to walk by yourself.
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 April 15 2021 15: 01
        +8
        Michael, why so sharply? It can be seen that a person is interested in this issue and his opinion may differ from the opinion of many.
        In full, a trivial delusion is possible. And you are his "Otherwise - Khan, in six months you will forget how to speak, and in a year you will begin to walk by yourself." (C)
        So all desire, something to study will disappear.
        I agree, if this is stated, if you please provide a source.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 15 2021 15: 42
          +5
          I unequivocally regarded the comment as an attempt at trolling, therefore such a reaction. I am sure that if the author really wanted to discuss something, the form of presenting information would be different.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 April 15 2021 16: 09
            +6
            Perhaps, but by answering so harshly, you are destroying the "healthy" forces.
      2. Force multiplier
        Force multiplier April 15 2021 16: 15
        -1
        Look, you babbled something here for a long time, but in essence you did not raise any objections (because there is nothing to argue). Instead of saying what you disagree with and giving your arguments, you write verbose nonsense about nothing. Before mumbling about dementia - look in the mirror, there you will see his standard from the Chamber of Weights and Measures. And before you write to me, find something to say. No need to try to attract my attention with your degenerative delirium
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 April 15 2021 16: 33
          +7
          Man (I hope so) if you have expressed something, please be so kind to confirm your statement with some documents or say that this is your personal opinion.
          If this did not follow, then you are just a chatterbox and a talker.
          And then Michael is 1000% right to the account of you.
          1. Richard
            Richard April 15 2021 16: 44
            +5
            Alexander hi
            When will we finally wait for new material from you? To be honest, I am now looking into the "opinions" section only for your sake.
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 April 15 2021 16: 52
              +7
              Hi!
              There are stars here besides me! In PM I corresponded with some friends and they asked about the same. To be honest, there is nothing to write with, there is one topic and that's it.
              As I wrote to one of our friends, you need to respect the visitors of this site, and not rewrite Wikipedia or advertising brochures.
              I am always happy to read your comments.
              Good luck, Dima!
              1. Richard
                Richard April 15 2021 17: 29
                +8
                To be honest, I am now looking into the "opinions" section only for your sake.

                Dear Administration of the site, I ask you to post historical articles ee2100, not in the "Opinions" section, but where they rightfully belong - in the "History" section. I hope the majority of VO readers will join my request.
                1. ee2100
                  ee2100 April 15 2021 17: 33
                  +8
                  Thank you, but I am glad that they were even published, otherwise I have been on the "black list" for more than 4 years
              2. Catfish
                Catfish April 15 2021 21: 43
                +5
                Sasha, hello and best wishes. hi
                I join Dima on the new material from you. Here, you know, there are too few authors who can be read with interest and pleasure.
                Write! smile drinks
          2. Force multiplier
            Force multiplier April 15 2021 16: 53
            0
            So he didn't want to talk to me on the topic. I wanted personality. So I got what I wanted. A person who is interested in sources and is interested in exchanging opinions and information does not behave this way and does not start a dialogue like that.
            Sources I mentioned earlier in the discussion of similar topics, including articles by this author. If you are interested in the source of a certain statement - speak
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 15 2021 22: 27
          +3
          Thank you, you finally convinced me that I was not mistaken about you and my conscience is calm.
          1. Force multiplier
            Force multiplier April 16 2021 00: 27
            0
            It is a pity that you have not been able to coherently, clearly, and politely formulate your objections. The opinion of a boorish layman about me (the specialist knows perfectly well the sources of the material from the initial commentary) is not important to me
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 15 2021 19: 24
        +3
        About hummingbirds - this is a test! Haven't heard yet
    2. Konnick
      Konnick April 15 2021 15: 19
      +1
      Rus - Germans from the Baltic Sea


      Here's another riddle

      The specialists of the Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences have determined the age of the equipment of a German warrior discovered in the Kursk region. The Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences (IA RAS) found out that the age of the items of equipment of a German warrior found in the Kursk region is about two thousand years.

      The spearhead and the umbon (a metal plate on the shield that protects the warrior's hand) were found by the search engines of the Kursk Bulge detachment in 2018 during an expedition at the site of the Great Patriotic War in the Kursk Region. According to TASS, a researcher at the Department of Archeology of the Migration Period and the Early Middle Ages Oleg Radyush, such a find was made on the territory of our country for the first time. According to him, for specialists it is significant as evidence of the military campaigns of the Germanic tribes, which took place at the end of the 1st millennium BC. - the first years of our era. The find may refer to a military burial, performed according to the rite of cremation, since there were signs that things were on fire, he noted. Such items were first found about 10 years ago in the burials of soldiers on the territory of Ukraine, 50 km from the border of the Kursk region.

      “The fact that the tribes could move to the east - that was the assumption 10 years ago. Now this find in the Kursk region confirms to us that the movement was going in our direction. It is possible that it was some kind of intelligence, and they were looking for fertile land. Then we pose the questions: with whom could they face here, with whom did they fight? " - said Oleg Radyush.
      https://historyrussia.org/sobytiya/opredelen-vozrast-obnaruzhennoj-v-kurskoj-oblasti-ekipirovki-voina-germantsa.html
      For some reason, they decided that the Germans came, or maybe vice versa, the tribes left here for Germany.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick April 15 2021 15: 26
        +2
        What were the Alans doing there?

        Archeology found unique burials of ancient Alans in the Vorobievsky district of the Voronezh region in July 2017. An ancient cemetery of 20 mounds was discovered near the village of Berezovka. In one of them, presumably, they found the burial of a nomad princess. The woman was covered with a scarlet cloak with a precious buckle - a brooch.

        About 20 meters from the tomb of the princess, the remains of the leader of the ancient Alans were found. The warrior is almost 2 meters tall. The remains of a sacrificial animal, a knife and a horse harness lay next to the skeleton.

        On the basis of the items found, experts will establish the exact date of the burial. So far, archaeologists suggest that this is about the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries AD, the time of the great migration of peoples, when due to the invasion of the Huns, the Alans-Tanaites left to the north.


        Everyone came and went ... A and B sat on the pipe ... were the Slavs left? Due to the invasion of the Huns, the Alans-Tanaites went north ... out of the fire and into the fire.
      2. Force multiplier
        Force multiplier April 15 2021 16: 25
        +1
        They came from the Baltic (southern Sweden, Denmark, modern Germany and Poland) in prehistoric times. Because of the prevailing obscurantism of political correctness after WWII (for obvious reasons), the theory of Gimbutas was promoted, they say, the Caspian steppes are the homeland of Indo-Germans. In recent years, only the late L.S. Klein, who could not have been branded as a "fascist", spoke openly about the arrival of Indo-Germans from the north of Europe
  • ee2100
    ee2100 April 15 2021 12: 17
    +7
    I expected something more from an author of this level. And here is just a statement - they came and settled, which means that no one seriously bothered them in this. They lived quietly and at ease, as evidenced by the existence of a potestary society.
    I didn't like the title of the article. It feels like what was before is no longer their story.
    Hope the sequel will be better.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 15 2021 13: 19
      +7
      Good afternoon, thanks for the opinion hi
      1. Richard
        Richard April 15 2021 17: 00
        +6
        Thank you very much for the interesting material. good
        I look forward to the next article about Rurik's calling ... and srachi in the comments on this topic smile
        Again . Happy Birthday drinks
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 15 2021 17: 21
          +7
          Thank you so much!!!!!
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov April 15 2021 17: 36
          +7
          Quote: Richard
          I look forward to the next article about Rurik's calling ... and srachi in the comments on this topic

          The country froze in anxious anticipation ... drinks
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 15 2021 18: 44
            +7
            "The beloved city can sleep well,
            And peacefully turn green in the middle of winter! " (FROM)
  • faterdom
    faterdom April 15 2021 20: 11
    +2

    And the Drevlyans lived in a bestial custom, lived in a bestial manner: they killed each other, ate unclean things and they never had any marriages, but they abducted the girls by the water.

    And the Radimichi, Vyatichi and Northerners had a common custom, they lived in the forest, like all animals, and they never got married ... "

    Here the chronicler is clearly biased towards these tribes.
    Marriages in more or less structured societies in one form or another are everywhere, in any primitive tribes, and even animals and birds often have married couples.
    What today's civilized peoples eat from the point of view of their neighbors is unclean ... Some respects pork, some dog meat, some twist frogs.
    Well, the girls have to hang out somewhere to be snatched away. At a restaurant or by the water - what's the difference?
    There are, of course, collectives ... The same Zaporozhye Sich - an amorphous community of dashing people, a kind of super-OPG, though they were not a tribe or people.
    Or, as the rock star of ethnography Stanislav Drobyshevsky says, a cave was found where a tribe of cannibals lived for many generations, around it is full of human bones with traces of culinary processing. Well, these are the tastes, because the cannibals were not invented by Charles Perrault for the tale of the puss in boots, they existed for one reason or another, and left an unkind memory of themselves for a long time. It is not known, only - they died out completely, or some "purebred Europeans, people by nature cultured" came from them.
  • Bashibuzuk1
    Bashibuzuk1 April 16 2021 11: 42
    +1
    Gentlemen ... you were slightly "crumpled" - and you did not even understand ...
    Read again about the "manners" of different tribes ..... and ask yourself a question - on what basis they should have "united" .... To quote about the Drevlyans, etc. I will not, read it yourself. The question is, who were the Russians? The AUTHOR did not even deign to determine where they were, etc. Remember Byzantium and the war of the Slavs with it, from what period, on the maps, the designation of the 9th century by the author ... In general, in the negative there is an article about us ... "wild and uncivilized" ... As in the 3rd Reich we were considered .. . "Aryans"
    1. Rita Aletdinova 1999
      Rita Aletdinova 1999 April 20 2021 15: 12
      0
      Aryans are Pakistanis, Iranians, Gypsies, Tajiks and Indians with Afghans.
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world April 19 2021 11: 41
    -1
    I read it. Another official lie. Well, it is impossible for Russ-Russians to have an Ancient History. So they deduce Slavyan Russov from the devil knows where. And just from the beginning of the Aria from the Russian Plain (for various reasons) came to India. By bringing there Language and other achievements. Sanskrit and Russian have the same origin and are extremely similar. Then after a while they returned to their homeland to the Birches and frosts. True, for some reason they are running out of names -Indo-Europeans already. Well, the Slavs of Russ should not have an ancient history. So the Aryans from the Russian Plain turned into Indo-Europeans on the way back. And the descendants of the Aryans began to live on the Russian Plain, calling names differently but having the same language. And from this Language they split off for various reasons and other languages ​​were formed. An example right before our eyes is Ukraine with its own remake. But they do not see him, for example, they do not want to see him. Well, it is impossible for the Slavs Russ to have Ancient History - such a political order. Since the days of the German Academician historians.
    2 Here in the article the names of the ambassadors of Russ are given and almost all of them are Scandinavian. And who said that they are Scandinavian and not ancient Slavic. The fact that they are used in modern times and in written history in Scandinavia. And modern Russian names like Vasily or Andrey are whose names they came from and where they came from ..
    And a small question - One Scandinavian name or something.
    3 For your information, different tribes differ from each other in language. So to communicate with each other, they - the tribes - must have interpreters. And the interpreters are not mentioned. Tired of outright lies about different tribes such as Vyatichi and others. We have so many different Tribes in our time. Muscovites, Vladimirtsy and others.
    4 We will wait for the continuation of the Official. Again, you will change the words in the quote about the vocation.
    Please note - the replacement of words in quotes is Falsification. And they use falsification when they want to distort the truth.
    1. Rita Aletdinova 1999
      Rita Aletdinova 1999 April 20 2021 15: 11
      0
      According to your logic, the Indians, Gypsies and Tajiks are your brothers and you are separating yourself from the European nation. Very interesting, of course, and funny at the same time.
  • Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 April 19 2021 12: 43
    0
    Is it really impossible to remember that it is written "Finns", "Finno-Ugric", and not "Finns" or "Fino-Ugric". By the way, many commentators here write like this. Irritating wildly.